Anyone know the rule on holding hands by two players on a kickoff return team?
I mean when the ball is kicked, and then two players meet and hold hands at a certain area, and then move together for a double team block?
I know they cant clothesline someone and block together, but can they line up, form hands, run a few yards while holding hands and then let go before they block someone?
Thanks
I'm a high school official, and any type of interlocked blocking is a foul at that level. I'd be pretty sure that NCAA is the same.
Kitchen Sink is right any interlocked block would be illegal, but two players that temporarily link are OK as long as the clearly separate before making a block.
Quote from: Just Bill on October 19, 2007, 01:49:49 PM
Kitchen Sink is right any interlocked block would be illegal, but two players that temporarily link are OK as long as the clearly separate before making a block.
thanks, so two players holding hands, running for 5 yards, clearly separating arms before blocking someone would be legal correct?
And federation rules would be different, although Im asking about NCAA rules, or Texas and Massachusetts high school rules, that also use NCAA....
Why would they hold hands?
Is one deaf or hard of hearing (don't get me started on the PC use of "hearing impaired")? I've seen offensive linemen hold hands then let go on the snap count so the deaf one knows the ball is snapped. Would holding hands on the kick return help get the deaf player focused on the right person to block?
"Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Well, in noisy stadiums I've seen linemen hold hands so they wouldn't jump offside. So they are 'hearing impaired' in that sense. It also shows solidarity and unity.
The rule against interlocking while blocking goes back to the day when Teddy Roosevelt almost banned the sport. The 'flying wedge' - where the linemen would basically bolt themselves together with their arms and run down the field is how a lot of people got killed or maimed back in the olden days.
Quote from: retagent on October 19, 2007, 10:51:18 PM
"Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Yada, yada, yada :D
Can we please keep this thread going for other questions, now that JT and Kitchen Sink are among the posters outed as HS game officials?
There was a question on the Dose about the horse collar rule being NFL only. I assume yes, but could someone with an officials' knowledge of HS/NCAA rules speak to that?
Also, pass interference rules are way different in college than the NFL, and not just because of 15 yards vs. spot fouls. The rules are actually different, anyone who could speak to that, be my guest.
You often see/hear fans (parents) complaining about rules they don't quite understand. Or they don't understand the college rules are different from HS or NFL.
Next we should get the 'explain offensive line play' thread going. Oh the old OLs would love it and people would definitely benefit.
Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2007, 12:14:26 AM
There was a question on the Dose about the horse collar rule being NFL only. I assume yes, but could someone with an officials' knowledge of HS/NCAA rules speak to that?
Also, pass interference rules are way different in college than the NFL, and not just because of 15 yards vs. spot fouls. The rules are actually different, anyone who could speak to that, be my guest.
Horse collar rule is NFL only. NO NCAA, NO HS.
Pass interference in the NFL includes faceguarding. The NCAA/HS rules do not. No contact, no interference.
Also, penalty assessment is obviously different. NFL is at the spot, or at the 1-yard line for P.I. in the endzone.
NCAA is 15 yards, or at the spot, whichever is less. Same for HS. P.I. in the endzone is 15 yards, or half the distance, whichever is less.
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on October 21, 2007, 12:19:47 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2007, 12:14:26 AM
There was a question on the Dose about the horse collar rule being NFL only. I assume yes, but could someone with an officials' knowledge of HS/NCAA rules speak to that?
Also, pass interference rules are way different in college than the NFL, and not just because of 15 yards vs. spot fouls. The rules are actually different, anyone who could speak to that, be my guest.
Horse collar rule is NFL only. NO NCAA, NO HS.
Pass interference in the NFL includes faceguarding. The NCAA/HS rules do not. No contact, no interference.
Also, penalty assessment is obviously different. NFL is at the spot, or at the 1-yard line for P.I. in the endzone.
NCAA is 15 yards, or at the spot, whichever is less. Same for HS. P.I. in the endzone is 15 yards, or half the distance, whichever is less.
Exactly.
Also, re: Pass interference rule differences in college ... no 5-yard zone for DB/WR contact. The way I was coached was that you can have contact with a receiver as long as the ball is not in the air. I don't think "contact" meant you can impede his progress in any way, but you can run with him with you hands on him or something like that.
The no "5 yard contact rule" is why we teach our LB's to defeat drag routes by blowing up the WR if he crosses the middle. We might get a pass interference penalty every once in a while if the QB just happens to have the pass in the air, but most of the time it completely defeats the WR and TE drag routes for the entire night if the ILB's de-cleats them early in the game. ;D
Awesome. Sort of the same theory as hitting the fullback/quarterback/pitch man on option plays regardless of whether or not they get the ball. You want them all wishing the other guy gets the ball.
Meanwhile, from the Dose:
QuotePurple Crush Says:
October 23rd, 2007 at 4:37 am
I officiate football in Texas. There is no horsecollar rule.
Nope, no horsecollar rule in HS. But that doesn't stop kids or coaches asking for a flag when they get a tackle up top.
"HORSECOLLAR!! THROW THE FLAG!!"
a) shake head
b) walk away
You can try and explain that there are different rules for the various levels, if you like blank stares and "But, but ... "
Yeah, that's basically how we got started on the topic. Guy in Texas was asking for a horsecollar penalty.
I think it speaks to the obsession fans tend to have with blaming officials for whatever doesn't go right.
But hey, it's nice that the NFL has such a great influence on fans that they learn the rules in great detail, consciously or not.
We're just not always playing with the same rules.
Horse collar is one.
Pass interference/5-yard zone is another.
What are some other differences between college and either HS or NFL that people can think of?
Can someone explain the "Official NCAA rule on noise makers? When I look at the rules it sounds like it was written for Championship games only. Then you see somewhere else where the rules committee recinded the rule.
My wife nearly got arrested 2 weeks ago at Averett for having a dang cowbell that was purchased in the Averett bookstore with Averett printed on it.
The problem started when the announcer told people to stop using air horns, yet some on the PA system was playing a siren. So when Averett scored it lonely touchdown she ran her cowbell and the folks on the other side that had the air horns complained. The rest of the story is nasty and she was close to getting the police called on her and thrown out because she refused to surrender her cow bell.
Went to Greensboro this past week and people ran cow bells all night and not a word was said.
So please, someone tell me what is going on. I can tell you this. We went to a VT game this year and you heard everything and the only folks that got removed were the ones that had cups with octane in them and were talking ugly and falling all over everyone. The noise makers were left alone.
I had a gentleman who appeared to be in his late 70's ask what all the fuss was about and he said "Hell, what a bunch of idiots" "Cowbells were invented for football not cows"
Here's a couple.
knee down...play dead. College.
knee down...play not dead until touched. NFL
Ball carriers helmet flies off during play...play over. College
Ball carriers helmet flies off during play...keep playing. NFL
Off the top of my head, just a few -
HS Neutral zone - if a defensive player so much as puts a finger in the neutral zone - - whistle & flag, 5 yard penalty and no opportunity to jump back.
Replay specifically banned in HS
3 minutes for stretching on top of normal half-time break in HS
15 minutes vs 12/10/9 HS V/JV/Fr
25 second clock vs NFL 40
I'm sure there will be plenty more as somebody remembers them ...
HS rules will vary state to state also I believe.
Texas and I believe Massachusetts play with NCAA rules in HS. I believe all other states play National Federation of High School rules.
I know a long time ago PA and NJ had some different on the field rules regarding blocking and tackling, but that was in the late 70's. In NJ offensive linemen could not extend their hands out past their shoulders and could not grab in pass blocking but PA allowed use of the hands in pass blocking.
Do any states have 'mercy' rules in football? In Michigan, they would go to a running clock once a game was too lop-sided (I believe it was by mutual consent of coaches rather than automatic at a set score, and not certain whether it is still in effect).
Michigan has a cut-and-dried mercy rule in soccer - once a team is down 8 goals, game over. I understand the reason for it, but don't like it - it just takes away PT from the very players who rarely get it.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 24, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Do any states have 'mercy' rules in football? In Michigan, they would go to a running clock once a game was too lop-sided (I believe it was by mutual consent of coaches rather than automatic at a set score, and not certain whether it is still in effect).
Michigan has a cut-and-dried mercy rule in soccer - once a team is down 8 goals, game over. I understand the reason for it, but don't like it - it just takes away PT from the very players who rarely get it.
Texas has a "mercy rule" in our 6-man football conference only.
Quote from: roocru on October 24, 2007, 04:24:46 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 24, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Do any states have 'mercy' rules in football? In Michigan, they would go to a running clock once a game was too lop-sided (I believe it was by mutual consent of coaches rather than automatic at a set score, and not certain whether it is still in effect).
Michigan has a cut-and-dried mercy rule in soccer - once a team is down 8 goals, game over. I understand the reason for it, but don't like it - it just takes away PT from the very players who rarely get it.
Texas has a "mercy rule" in our 6-man football conference only.
Yes, 45 points in the second half. :D
Quote from: K-Mack on October 24, 2007, 02:00:19 PM
Yeah, that's basically how we got started on the topic. Guy in Texas was asking for a horsecollar penalty.
Whatever the merits or demerits of the "horsecollar" tackle, two weeks ago an outstanding high school running back in San Antonio, Texas, had his season ended
by an
apparent horsecollar tackle that resulted in his exit from the field with a broken ankle (it required surgical reduction -- and from recent personal experience, I know that ain't much fun!).
After the game, his tackler was reportedly "upset" at what he'd done ....
Quote from: kickerdad on October 24, 2007, 02:06:03 PM
Can someone explain the "Official NCAA rule on noise makers? When I look at the rules it sounds like it was written for Championship games only. Then you see somewhere else where the rules committee recinded the rule.
My wife nearly got arrested 2 weeks ago at Averett for having a dang cowbell that was purchased in the Averett bookstore with Averett printed on it.
The problem started when the announcer told people to stop using air horns, yet some on the PA system was playing a siren. So when Averett scored it lonely touchdown she ran her cowbell and the folks on the other side that had the air horns complained. The rest of the story is nasty and she was close to getting the police called on her and thrown out because she refused to surrender her cow bell.
Went to Greensboro this past week and people ran cow bells all night and not a word was said.
So please, someone tell me what is going on. I can tell you this. We went to a VT game this year and you heard everything and the only folks that got removed were the ones that had cups with octane in them and were talking ugly and falling all over everyone. The noise makers were left alone.
I had a gentleman who appeared to be in his late 70's ask what all the fuss was about and he said "Hell, what a bunch of idiots" "Cowbells were invented for football not cows"
I would also like to know the deal on this rule as some friends and I are planning on make a bunch of them for our homecoming game against Trinity.
I can think of width of uprights and hash marks.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 24, 2007, 04:52:11 PM
Quote from: roocru on October 24, 2007, 04:24:46 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 24, 2007, 04:08:04 PM
Do any states have 'mercy' rules in football? In Michigan, they would go to a running clock once a game was too lop-sided (I believe it was by mutual consent of coaches rather than automatic at a set score, and not certain whether it is still in effect).
Michigan has a cut-and-dried mercy rule in soccer - once a team is down 8 goals, game over. I understand the reason for it, but don't like it - it just takes away PT from the very players who rarely get it.
Texas has a "mercy rule" in our 6-man football conference only.
Yes, 45 points in the second half. :D
In P.a. After a team goes ahead by 35 pts the clock is continually run for the remainder of the game. Sans a TD or injury of course
In Wisconsin we use the National Federation of High Schools Rule book, with a couple of state adaptations (running clock in 2nd half if a 35 or more point lead, minimum number of officials, no OT for freshman). There are a couple of exceptions to the running clock - TO, Qtr-end, after a score.
I was under the impression that this is more or less the standard for all high schools across the country. There probably are exceptions, but the rule book does indicate members from (it appears) every state. There's even sections on 9 / 8 / 6 man games.
Quote from: KitchenSink on October 24, 2007, 10:19:12 PM
In Wisconsin we use the National Federation of High Schools Rule book, with a couple of state adaptations (running clock in 2nd half if a 35 or more point lead, minimum number of officials, no OT for freshman). There are a couple of exceptions to the running clock - TO, Qtr-end, after a score.
I was under the impression that this is more or less the standard for all high schools across the country. There probably are exceptions, but the rule book does indicate members from (it appears) every state. There's even sections on 9 / 8 / 6 man games.
Yea, except for Massachusetts and Texas, all states go by federation rules. The main exceptions I learned from the two are this....
NCAA rules: Offensive players can block below the waist anywhere on the field (except chop blocks of couse
Federation: No blocking below the waist anywhere on the field
NCAA rules: FG and XP kickers can use a plastic block
Federation: No block, kickers must kick from the ground.
I think those are the major differences between the two.
Jonny - HS (Federation) can block below the waist in the "free-blocking zone" (basically in the pits) unless it's a long / shotgun snap. Once the ball leaves the f-b zone (by the snap energy or the QB moving it out), no more below the waist.
And a tee is allowed in HS. I thought they eliminated it in NCAA ...
Quote from: KitchenSink on October 25, 2007, 09:46:39 PM
Jonny - HS (Federation) can block below the waist in the "free-blocking zone" (basically in the pits) unless it's a long / shotgun snap. Once the ball leaves the f-b zone (by the snap energy or the QB moving it out), no more below the waist.
And a tee is allowed in HS. I thought they eliminated it in NCAA ...
KitchenSink,
I am with you, I was under the impression that in HS you could use a tee for extra points and field goals, but in college you could not. I know my son isn't allowed to use a block.
Utah, are you sure you don't have the rules backwards.
Quote from: kickerdad on October 25, 2007, 09:59:53 PM
Quote from: KitchenSink on October 25, 2007, 09:46:39 PM
Jonny - HS (Federation) can block below the waist in the "free-blocking zone" (basically in the pits) unless it's a long / shotgun snap. Once the ball leaves the f-b zone (by the snap energy or the QB moving it out), no more below the waist.
And a tee is allowed in HS. I thought they eliminated it in NCAA ...
KitchenSink,
I am with you, I was under the impression that in HS you could use a tee for extra points and field goals, but in college you could not. I know my son isn't allowed to use a block.
Utah, are you sure you don't have the rules backwards.
You are right, the exception to the high school rule in MA, (NCAA) is that a tee can be used. But you can also block below the waist all over the field (Sweeps, jets, shotguns, anywhere, etc...)
And I think you can crackback more in federation than you can in NCAA too......not too sure though.
Quote from: kickerdad on October 24, 2007, 02:06:03 PM
Can someone explain the "Official NCAA rule on noise makers? When I look at the rules it sounds like it was written for Championship games only. Then you see somewhere else where the rules committee recinded the rule.
My wife nearly got arrested 2 weeks ago at Averett for having a dang cowbell that was purchased in the Averett bookstore with Averett printed on it.
The problem started when the announcer told people to stop using air horns, yet some on the PA system was playing a siren. So when Averett scored it lonely touchdown she ran her cowbell and the folks on the other side that had the air horns complained. The rest of the story is nasty and she was close to getting the police called on her and thrown out because she refused to surrender her cow bell.
Went to Greensboro this past week and people ran cow bells all night and not a word was said.
So please, someone tell me what is going on. I can tell you this. We went to a VT game this year and you heard everything and the only folks that got removed were the ones that had cups with octane in them and were talking ugly and falling all over everyone. The noise makers were left alone.
I had a gentleman who appeared to be in his late 70's ask what all the fuss was about and he said "Hell, what a bunch of idiots" "Cowbells were invented for football not cows"
Somebody has to know the answer to noise rule. ?????????
In Illinois High School Football the mercy rule is 40pts in the second half running clock. Also what is the rule ( High school and college) on contact when a team is taking a knee at the end of a game? Are you able to play full speed on defense or is it a penalty if the offense tells the official they are taking a knee?
I am no official but I think the fans are allowed to have noise makers but not horns as they can be mistaken for the horn on the scoreboard.
Official's discretion. And, since the officials (if they are smart) find out before the play if it's a knee (and they should also inform the defense), they know just what to look for.
Quote from: Comet 14 on October 26, 2007, 11:33:04 AM
In Illinois High School Football the mercy rule is 40pts in the second half running clock. Also what is the rule ( High school and college) on contact when a team is taking a knee at the end of a game? Are you able to play full speed on defense or is it a penalty if the offense tells the official they are taking a knee?
Quote from: kickerdad on October 26, 2007, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: kickerdad on October 24, 2007, 02:06:03 PM
Can someone explain the "Official NCAA rule on noise makers? When I look at the rules it sounds like it was written for Championship games only. Then you see somewhere else where the rules committee recinded the rule.
My wife nearly got arrested 2 weeks ago at Averett for having a dang cowbell that was purchased in the Averett bookstore with Averett printed on it.
The problem started when the announcer told people to stop using air horns, yet some on the PA system was playing a siren. So when Averett scored it lonely touchdown she ran her cowbell and the folks on the other side that had the air horns complained. The rest of the story is nasty and she was close to getting the police called on her and thrown out because she refused to surrender her cow bell.
Went to Greensboro this past week and people ran cow bells all night and not a word was said.
So please, someone tell me what is going on. I can tell you this. We went to a VT game this year and you heard everything and the only folks that got removed were the ones that had cups with octane in them and were talking ugly and falling all over everyone. The noise makers were left alone.
I had a gentleman who appeared to be in his late 70's ask what all the fuss was about and he said "Hell, what a bunch of idiots" "Cowbells were invented for football not cows"
Somebody has to know the answer to noise rule. ?????????
Also what is the rule on "Forward Progress" Is the ball marked at the exact spot where the knee touches or at the forward most progress of the nose of the football. Example....runner's knee touches the ground on the 1 yard line but he stretchs out and the nose of the football breaks the plane of the goal line. Is it a touchdown or marked at the 1 yard line. Next example.....you need to get to the 10 yard line for a first down and your knee touches down at the 10 1/2 but the runner stretches out across the 10 to the 9 & 3/4. Is it a first down. I know this sounds like a stupid question but I have seen officals mark it both ways and with no consistency.
I'm not an official, but pretty sure it is whee the nose of the ball is at the moment the runner is down. Stretching out the ball after one is down is irrelevant (though most runners do it, just in case). But if the ball crosses the plane of the goal (or first down line), it doesn't matter where the knee (or other parts of the anatomy) later lands.
Since the official has to view both the ball and the knees simultaneously (essentially impossible to do with truly accurate position on both), it is no wonder that so many spots at least seem to the viewer as 'generous' or otherwise!
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 26, 2007, 02:27:21 PM
I'm not an official, but pretty sure it is whee the nose of the ball is at the moment the runner is down. Stretching out the ball after one is down is irrelevant (though most runners do it, just in case). But if the ball crosses the plane of the goal (or first down line), it doesn't matter where the knee (or other parts of the anatomy) later lands.
Since the official has to view both the ball and the knees simultaneously (essentially impossible to do with truly accurate position on both), it is no wonder that so many spots at least seem to the viewer as 'generous' or otherwise!
If the ball crosses the goal before the knee touches down, it is a touchdown. If the knee touches before the ball crosses, the ball is down at the spot the knee touches. Difficult call because often you do not see the knee due to obstructed view. One of the more difficult calls to make. Most officials are taught to call what you see. Hope you can understand how difficult this can be and not what you don't see. Rule also applies to first down marker. If the official rules it was simultaneous, then it is marked at the point of forward progress of the ball. I have been out of the game for a few years, so if the rulling has changed, I stand to be corrected.
Quote from: Comet 14 on October 26, 2007, 11:33:04 AM
In Illinois High School Football the mercy rule is 40pts in the second half running clock. Also what is the rule ( High school and college) on contact when a team is taking a knee at the end of a game? Are you able to play full speed on defense or is it a penalty if the offense tells the official they are taking a knee?
From what I usually see, the ref tells both teams that the offense is taking a knee. This is an easy sportsmanship lesson where if the defense tries any crap, the refs have a quick whistle and usually (or should) throw a flag on the next play.
Quote from: Jonny Utah on October 26, 2007, 06:29:29 PM
This is an easy sportsmanship lesson where if the defense tries any crap, the refs have a quick whistle and usually (or should) throw a flag on the next play.
I agree they should throw a flag in this instance, but it goes both ways. I was at a game where the offense was trying to run out the clock, but needed a few extra seconds to be sure. The QB took the snap and waited a second or two before he took the knee. The defensive lineman got flagged because he was trying to get through the OL and to the QB. If they are going to throw that flag, they need to blow the play dead even if the QB doesn't take the knee immediately. If the offense needs to run a few seconds off, they need to run a sweep.
Quote from: Comet 14 on October 26, 2007, 11:34:40 AM
I am no official but I think the fans are allowed to have noise makers but not horns as they can be mistaken for the horn on the scoreboard.
so say we distribute a ton of cow bells and can shakers, thats cool then? As long as there are no horns its cool?
[
If the ball crosses the goal before the knee touches down, it is a touchdown. If the knee touches before the ball crosses, the ball is down at the spot the knee touches. [/quote]
Forward progress would be where the ball was when the knee touches the ground, not where the knee was unless the ball was on the same line. The line to gain can still be made if the ball crosses the imaginary line at the 10 when the knee touches the ground at the 10 1/2. It's the position of the ball when the knee touches
Quote from: BOBCAT04 on October 26, 2007, 07:25:35 PM
[
If the ball crosses the goal before the knee touches down, it is a touchdown. If the knee touches before the ball crosses, the ball is down at the spot the knee touches.
Forward progress would be where the ball was when the knee touches the ground, not where the knee was unless the ball was on the same line. The line to gain can still be made if the ball crosses the imaginary line at the 10 when the knee touches the ground at the 10 1/2. It's the position of the ball when the knee touches
[/quote]
Yes, you are correct. I think we are basically saying the same thing. If the ball carrier is on his way down when the knee touches and the ball is being extended forward, the forward progress would be just as you say, but if the forward progress is stopped or he is downed and then he reaches out extending the ball, then it is marked where the forward progress ended.
Quote from: KentATM on October 26, 2007, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: Comet 14 on October 26, 2007, 11:34:40 AM
I am no official but I think the fans are allowed to have noise makers but not horns as they can be mistaken for the horn on the scoreboard.
so say we distribute a ton of cow bells and can shakers, thats cool then? As long as there are no horns its cool?
I'm not sure of the rule, but our pep band stops playing when the QB gets under center (or actually when the offense starts lining up). In the past we were flagged for a 5 yard penalty which I believe was a delay of game penalty. However, I have been places and have heard cowbells rung constantly without any repercussion. I think most refs let it go, but if the opposing coach makes an issue of it there is a rule against noisemakers. I'd be interested in seeing the official rule myself.
here's 2 rules that I think should be changed.
1. If a team commits a flagrant personal foul penaulty at the same the other team has an off side or motion penaulty they should mark off the difference. Otherwise the offending team gets off with out any consequences.
2. If a player runs arpnd the endzone after intercepting a pass it should be a safety. (Wesley's player actually ran around the endzone for 8 seconds before taking a knee.) Just a play I always though should be called
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 11:12:34 AM
2. If a player runs arpnd the endzone after intercepting a pass it should be a safety. (Wesley's player actually ran around the endzone for 8 seconds before taking a knee.) Just a play I always though should be called
Why shouldn't the player have the opportunity to look for a return lane? How is a referee supposed to judge when he's making a return and when he's just "running around?" Or, are you saying that any interception in the end zone should be a safety if they don't get out?
If a player intercepted the ball at the 10 and ran around in that vicinity for eight seconds would you advocate that the play be blown dead and spotted at the 10? You can't have it one way in the end zone and a different rule in the field of play.
Quote from: Just Bill on October 29, 2007, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 11:12:34 AM
2. If a player runs arpnd the endzone after intercepting a pass it should be a safety. (Wesley's player actually ran around the endzone for 8 seconds before taking a knee.) Just a play I always though should be called
Why shouldn't the player have the opportunity to look for a return lane? How is a referee supposed to judge when he's making a return and when he's just "running around?" Or, are you saying that any interception in the end zone should be a safety if they don't get out?
If a player intercepted the ball at the 10 and ran around in that vicinity for eight seconds would you advocate that the play be blown dead and spotted at the 10? You can't have it one way in the end zone and a different rule in the field of play.
This all goes back to the rule of force. What force put the ball into the endzone... the pass which was intercepted. The Wesley player can do the river dance and its a touchback. He can get tackled in the endzone trying to bring it out and it is still a touchback.
Quote from: JT on October 29, 2007, 12:13:31 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on October 29, 2007, 09:13:31 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 11:12:34 AM
2. If a player runs arpnd the endzone after intercepting a pass it should be a safety. (Wesley's player actually ran around the endzone for 8 seconds before taking a knee.) Just a play I always though should be called
Why shouldn't the player have the opportunity to look for a return lane? How is a referee supposed to judge when he's making a return and when he's just "running around?" Or, are you saying that any interception in the end zone should be a safety if they don't get out?
If a player intercepted the ball at the 10 and ran around in that vicinity for eight seconds would you advocate that the play be blown dead and spotted at the 10? You can't have it one way in the end zone and a different rule in the field of play.
This all goes back to the rule of force. What force put the ball into the endzone... the pass which was intercepted. The Wesley player can do the river dance and its a touchback. He can get tackled in the endzone trying to bring it out and it is still a touchback.
What I meant was if the player runs around he should have to get out of the endzone....It's another of those gray area non calls. He can run out the clock at but if he IS trying to get out to return it anddoesn't get out it he's still safe!!!
But why make it a gray area non-call when you can make the decision is already a completely objective one? I like the use of the impetus rule to decide safety vs touchback for that very reason. It makes the decision very easy. Why was the ball in the endzone to begin with?
Quote from: altor on October 29, 2007, 08:30:30 PM
But why make it a gray area non-call when you can make the decision is already a completely objective one? I like the use of the impetus rule to decide safety vs touchback for that very reason. It makes the decision very easy. Why was the ball in the endzone to begin with?
Interception.
If a player is able to run out the clock after intercepting it in the endzone by running around for 8 seconds I don't think the team that tossed it was going to have much of a chance to score before the half or game ended anyway.
Sorry, I wasn't asking about the scenario. The answer to "Why was the ball in the end zone to begin with?" or more properly "Who caused the ball to go into the end zone?" will effectively tell you whether the play should be a touchback or a safety. It takes away nearly all subjectiveness on the part of the official.
I've even seen a kick returner muff the kick in the end zone. He had trouble picking it up and eventually just tossed the ball out the back of the end zone. I'm positive he did so thinking that giving up 2 points was better than 6, but the official made the right call and placed the ball at the 20. The ball crossed the goal line because the kicking team put it there. No subjective call was needed.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 29, 2007, 08:19:08 PM
What I meant was if the player runs around he should have to get out of the endzone....It's another of those gray area non calls. He can run out the clock at but if he IS trying to get out to return it anddoesn't get out it he's still safe!!!
That's my point. You're going to ask the refs to interpret the intent of the player returning the ball? That's a can of worms just waiting to be opened. What if it takes him 8 seconds to find a way out of the end zone? Some DB's will keep it alive just hoping for that chance to break it big. Your logic doesn't make sense.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 29, 2007, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: altor on October 29, 2007, 08:30:30 PM
But why make it a gray area non-call when you can make the decision is already a completely objective one? I like the use of the impetus rule to decide safety vs touchback for that very reason. It makes the decision very easy. Why was the ball in the endzone to begin with?
Interception.
By rule it is the pass that put the ball in the endzone. Hence a touchback. The DB was smart enough to know that he could run around in attempt to kill the clock. That is just heads up play.
never mind geesh ;D
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 11:12:34 AM
here's 2 rules that I think should be changed.
1. If a team commits a flagrant personal foul penaulty at the same the other team has an off side or motion penaulty they should mark off the difference. Otherwise the offending team gets off with out any consequences.
2. If a player runs arpnd the endzone after intercepting a pass it should be a safety. (Wesley's player actually ran around the endzone for 8 seconds before taking a knee.) Just a play I always though should be called
I'm with the others on this one. What's the difference between taking a knee in the endzone and taking a knee on the subsequent 1st down play to end the game?? There's nothing really "gamey" about it. I'm kinda surprised that he ran the clock out like that. The end game was the same either way.....
-Ski
How about this one.......
At the Curry/Coast Guard game, Curry had numerous 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 opportunities throughout the game. What they would do is line up in a power-I formation, the qb would sneak left or right, and they would have these huge players (linemen even? cant remember) in the backfield as fullbacks that would push the line of scrimmage forward right on the Qbs back.
Now I know its illegal to push an offensive player in the back to gain yardage. Do they ever call it? It was clear that Curry was pushing their QB's back and moving the whole line forward....
The illegal push (aka "helping the runner") is one of the least-called penalties in football at all levels. You see it quite frequently, if perhaps not quite as blatantly as your example.
No idea why it's on the books as it's almost never enforced.
The only time I ever remember it being called was in the '85 Bears-Pats Super Bowl. Refrigerator Perry was playing fullback when Walter Payton got stuffed at the two. Perry literally grabbed Payton by both hips, picked him up and carried him into the end zone. That's the last time I've ever seen it called.
Yea Curry was probably 100% (7-7 or 8-8) on these qb sneaks.....Might have won them the game.
I found this page which hasn't had a post on it since 2007 to bring up a rules question.
In the Syracuse vs. Virginia Tech game today a Hokie punt returner signaled for a fair catch after the punt hit the ground and took a high bounce. He fielded the ball and the play was blown dead as the defender stood closely by. Is this a valid fair catch or should the defense have been free to drill him?
I don't know if this is still the case, but a decade or two ago I remember seeing Linfield punt, and the returner called for a fair catch after a nice high bounce. He was hit almost immediately after he caught the ball, but a flag was thrown for calling for the fair catch after the bounce (unsportsmanlike conduct, IIRC). I felt a bit sorry for the guy -- called for a fair catch, but then got hit almost immediately and also penalized 15 yards.
Quote from: UfanBill on October 23, 2021, 04:19:50 PM
I found this page which hasn't had a post on it since 2007 to bring up a rules question.
In the Syracuse vs. Virginia Tech game today a Hokie punt returner signaled for a fair catch after the punt hit the ground and took a high bounce. He fielded the ball and the play was blown dead as the defender stood closely by. Is this a valid fair catch or should the defense have been free to drill him?
At the same time I would like to get clarification on if the kick returner on Kick Off signals a fair catch and then the ball hits the ground and the returner fields it - is it a dead ball where he fielded it, live ball, or since it was inside the 25 a fair catch at the 25?
I saw this happen in the Wabash game a week ago. On the kickoff, the ball hit the ground and bounced to the returner who had signaled for a fair catch. The ball was blown dead at the spot the returner fielded it. I think it was on the 7 or 8 yard line.