For those that may be interested. Tonites NABC Guardians Dinner will be re broadcasted tomorrow evening at 6pm (Central), on CBS College Network.
Quote from: fcnews on April 05, 2009, 11:29:37 PM
For those that may be interested. Tonites NABC Guardians Dinner will be re broadcasted tomorrow evening at 6pm (Central), on CBS College Network.
Awards recipients include Blake Griffen, Tom Izzo, and, of course, Jimmy Bartolotta.
Along with Fontbonne's Coach McKinney and Wash U's Coach Edwards.
Wabash head basketball coach Mac Petty will also be given an award.
I prefer Pat's awards banquet. I don't like the way that the NABC awards banquet portions out the dessert equally to each region's representatives.
Greg - I think any exposure is good exposure, when it comes to D3. You may not like the process, but at least the kids get some other attention. It is the coaches who vote.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 06, 2009, 02:25:58 PM
I prefer Pat's awards banquet. I don't like the way that the NABC awards banquet portions out the dessert equally to each region's representatives.
Quote from: fcnews on April 06, 2009, 10:05:41 PM
Greg - I think any exposure is good exposure, when it comes to D3. You may not like the process, but at least the kids get some other attention. It is the coaches who vote.
I think Mr. Sager's post was intended to be humorous... which it is if I am interpreting it correctly
Your right Thundermike. My Bad. As a past member of the NABC I get tired of their awards getting ripped.
Quote from: fcnews on April 07, 2009, 12:04:14 AM
Your right Thundermike. My Bad. As a past member of the NABC I get tired of their awards getting ripped.
As long as they insist that all regions are equal, they deserve all the ripping they get.
Not condemning the people (teams) they select as
bad, but there ARE more deserving people (teams) if they would only recognize quality across the nation. The d3.com awards clearly have more merit.
And (contrary to many) I think coaches are among the
worst selectors: they know better than most about the teams they face, but have no time to follow the teams they don't face. Why would a (for example) NESCAC coach know diddly about a WIAC, CCIW, or ASC player or team?
I guess we should just propose that all awards, other then d3.com, be abolished. ::) ??? >:(
Quote from: fcnews on April 07, 2009, 12:33:52 AM
I guess we should just propose that all awards, other then d3.com, be abolished. ::) ??? >:(
Now don't go getting all huffy on me! ;)
But awards allocated by regions, by voters who may know nothing about players outside their regions,
are a little suspect.
I honor players who receive other awards, but admit I think d3.com awards are the 'gold standard'.
I, for one, put the most merit and weight in the d3news post season awards. Any publication that spells at least 90% of the players' names correctly and has complete transparency by not explaining any of their methodology gets my vote.
But in all seriousness, d3hoops.com does the absolute best they can at trying to weigh all teams and players across the nation objectively, but they are not immune to some of the same issues you are arguing against the NABC. The NABC may have coaches vote on all their polls, but the regional d3hoops voting is done by that regions SIDs. This is a better system than having SIDs vote on the entire nation, but it still puts teams that are geographically isolated from their conference at a disadvantage. For example, Carnegie Mellon and Case Western are the only UAA teams in the Great Lakes, while other conferences, like the OAC, NCAC, MIAA, PrAC, and the AMCC have all their members voting. I am sure there are other cases, but I just used this as an example. At least the NABC clearly states their methodology (that is, a coaches or coaches panel vote). All these polls are subjective to some degreee, because the votes are being made by people based on their perception of a players skill, but as long as it is clear how the selection is made, I have no problem with it. It is tough when a player you would like does not get selected (I would have liked Ryan Einwag to be selected to a Great Lakes team, for example), but you have to deal with the results given the framework. Just like the OWP/OOWP, you may think that it is a flawed system, but the fact is that there is no easy fix and both d3hoops and NABC have defined a selection process and stick to it.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 07, 2009, 12:47:50 AM
Quote from: fcnews on April 07, 2009, 12:33:52 AM
I guess we should just propose that all awards, other then d3.com, be abolished. ::) ??? >:(
Now don't go getting all huffy on me! ;)
But awards allocated by regions, by voters who may know nothing about players outside their regions, are a little suspect.
I honor players who receive other awards, but admit I think d3.com awards are the 'gold standard'.
Say more about this... isn't it good that people in a region only vote on people in their region?
Now that I have actual access to a computer. If I knew starting this topic would result in dredging up the same old crap, I would have saved my effort. After, it was announced, that the show would be re-broadcast I thought some of the posters and viewers might enjoy watching the D3 honorees.
Some of the coaches I did recognize as coming from D3 institutions.
My personal congrats to.
Mark Edwards - D3 Coach of the year
Pillar Award for Advocacy - Mike Turner - Albion
NABC Honor Awards
Lee McKinney - Fontbonne
Steve Moore - Wooster
Brian Baptiste - UM-D
Mark Edwards - Wash U.
Dick Whitmore - Colby
I hope I didn't miss anyone. But, it's possible. I'm not perfect. I sure won't start this thread next year.
I'm done with this topic. It was a great evening for those in attendance.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 07, 2009, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 07, 2009, 12:47:50 AM
Quote from: fcnews on April 07, 2009, 12:33:52 AM
I guess we should just propose that all awards, other then d3.com, be abolished. ::) ??? >:(
Now don't go getting all huffy on me! ;)
But awards allocated by regions, by voters who may know nothing about players outside their regions, are a little suspect.
I honor players who receive other awards, but admit I think d3.com awards are the 'gold standard'.
Say more about this... isn't it good that people in a region only vote on people in their region?
It is -- however, the fact that all regions get the same number of people on the team, whether it's the 30-some team East and Atlantic, the Northeast (double the size) or the Midwest/West/Great Lakes (where the best teams in Division III are most years) makes it open to ridicule.
Isn't it possible some years that more than one Midwest player should be on the first team? Or some years, more than one Northeast player, or some years more than one East player? There's no possibility of that with the NABC All-American team.
However, I have no problem with their Coach of the Year selection and their awards for milestone wins (the honor awards cited by fcnews). It's just where they try to appease all regions that they go wrong.
I was kind of strange that the NABC agreed with D3hoops for POY.
We can't always disagree, I guess. But this is the first time in our short POTY history that we've completely agreed.
In 2006 we chose Lincoln's Kyle Myrick as Player of the Year. But since Lincoln was an independent and had no conference coaches able to vote for him in the NABC team, he only made third team All-Region, which was a joke, clearly politics to anyone who watched Mid-Atlantic basketball that season.
In 2007 we chose Ben Strong and they chose Ben Strong and Andrew Olson as co-players of the year. Kind of a cop-out but both were certainly worthy POTY candidates. Olson was someone we considered strongly, as it were.
In 2008 we chose that Troy Ruths guy and he wasn't even on their All-American team. Again, a player without conference coaches in his region able to vote for him, with the UAA scattered all over the country. The NABC chose Olson again, which is fine, though not a choice anyone who saw the Final Four would make, I think.
To me, it's not that the NABC chose players that weren't worthy as their POTY, it's that some worthy POTY candidates weren't even on their All-American team at all, because of the system.
I just figured I should be specific about my feelings, since sometimes my position gets assumed and taken out of context, etc. I don't intend to turn it into a long diatribe on the subject, just getting the history on the record, so to speak.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 07, 2009, 01:17:38 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 07, 2009, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 07, 2009, 12:47:50 AM
Quote from: fcnews on April 07, 2009, 12:33:52 AM
I guess we should just propose that all awards, other then d3.com, be abolished. ::) ??? >:(
Now don't go getting all huffy on me! ;)
But awards allocated by regions, by voters who may know nothing about players outside their regions, are a little suspect.
I honor players who receive other awards, but admit I think d3.com awards are the 'gold standard'.
Say more about this... isn't it good that people in a region only vote on people in their region?
It is -- however, the fact that all regions get the same number of people on the team, whether it's the 30-some team East and Atlantic, the Northeast (double the size) or the Midwest/West/Great Lakes (where the best teams in Division III are most years) makes it open to ridicule.
Isn't it possible some years that more than one Midwest player should be on the first team? Or some years, more than one Northeast player, or some years more than one East player? There's no possibility of that with the NABC All-American team.
Thank you for the clarification. I thought that is what he was getting at, but wasn't sure.
Pat I was in know way trying to start anything. We've disagreed in the past, but I have become a custom to the direction you are trying to take this site. And, I do appreciate it.
I was just trying to reinforce your choice for POTY.
If I'm not mistaken, the NABC ballots do not take into account post season. That may explain Ruths omission. He was pretty much held in check against Fontbonne last year. Before exploding for a Hellva Tourney.
It's all in the eye of the voter. I tend to think that the politicing part may be a tad over blown. The coaches I know do take it pretty seriously.
No doubt and they may well take it seriously, but when in doubt, a coach is also going to vote for his own conference's guys first, and that couldn't happen for Ruths or Myrick.
Ruths was still an All-American before the tournament started last year. He wasn't a Player of the Year candidate (we had talked about Olson, Raymond, Strong and to a lesser extent, Cooper) but he was definitely an All-American in our mind.
I love the fact that a board that's ostensibly about an awards banquet is already close to starting its third page.
Summary of Awards:
http://nabc.cstv.com/genrel/040909aam.html