This may sound like a silly question, but hear me out. Do Division III schools generally ease up on admissions standards when it comes to letting in athletes (especially in sports like football or basketball)? I ask this because as someone who also follows Division I athletics closely, I think it's clear to most that even the best of Division I academic institutions usually have a few athletic squads that don't nearly reflect the high standards of the rest of the student body. Even the Ivy League, I believe, has, as a group of schools, decided on just how much leeway they're allowed to give student-athletes during the admissions process. (They even have a name for this process, but I forget what it's called.) Anyways, does this happen in DIII as well? Or are most DIII schools true to their respective institutional standards and mission?
Quote from: CarrollStreaks on October 27, 2009, 12:13:03 AM
This may sound like a silly question, but hear me out. Do Division III schools generally ease up on admissions standards when it comes to letting in athletes (especially in sports like football or basketball)? I ask this because as someone who also follows Division I athletics closely, I think it's clear to most that even the best of Division I academic institutions usually have a few athletic squads that don't nearly reflect the high standards of the rest of the student body. Even the Ivy League, I believe, has, as a group of schools, decided on just how much leeway they're allowed to give student-athletes during the admissions process. (They even have a name for this process, but I forget what it's called.) Anyways, does this happen in DIII as well? Or are most DIII schools true to their respective institutional standards and mission?
Long story short...yea it does happen.
But if you can play the flute like a champion, Ithaca College will ease their admissions standards for you too.
Admissions are flexible at most private colleges. If you have something to offer the college community, and they think you will succeed academically, they will let you in.
Quote from: smedindy on October 27, 2009, 08:35:01 AM
Admissions are flexible at most private colleges. If you have something to offer the college community, and they think you will succeed academically, they will let you in.
Outside of the public schools with lower tuitions and the tip-top private schools (Swarthmore, Williams, et al), I would think the bigger issue for most Division III athletic programs (re: private, expensive, at least somewhat selective) is how much of a financial/academic aid package is awarded. Whether the admissions office gives "slots" to student-athletes or not, most coaches at most Division III schools can adjust their recruiting strategies to target the right kind of kids from an academic profile standpoint.
Quote from: smedindy on October 27, 2009, 08:35:01 AM
Admissions are flexible at most private colleges. If you have something to offer the college community, and they think you will succeed academically, they will let you in.
I agree with this statement and I believe that this principle alone drives the admission process as much as any single factor. Yes, there are some brilliant students who can receive admittance without contributing to the collegiate community by participating in the arts, student government, athletics, etc. But, if a student has something to contribute to the college, the admissions office will not be nearly as focused on ACT/SAT scores and/or grade point average when the final decision regarding admittance is determined for a prospective student.
But I think we would be hoodwinking ourselves if we did not admit that at some institutions, including more prestigious d3s, athletes receive more leniency in admissions criteria (and financial aid) than other applicants. For some institutions, every applicant has a special talent or brings something to the college community like flute playing, leadership, or juggling flaming batons, but athletes can get a break with a push from the coach. However, at those same schools there is a baseline or minimum for everything even athletes who are on the lower end of the spectrum.
I would add at some of those same schools, student-athletes are competing for admissions just as much as coaches/programs are competing to get or recruit the student-athlete. So it can be a matter of "fit" and one lower range ACT kid may be the only "concession" that year because there can be many elite candidates to pick from. Because of that, you won't really find a whole team in the Ivy League, Nescac, UAA, etc. with all lower academically achieving student athletes because the admissions competition is a two way dynamic.
Quote from: Wydown Blvd. on October 27, 2009, 11:46:54 AM
But I think we would be hoodwinking ourselves if we did not admit that at some institutions, including more prestigious d3s, athletes receive more leniency in admissions criteria (and financial aid) than other applicants. For some institutions, every applicant has a special talent or brings something to the college community like flute playing, leadership, or juggling flaming batons, but athletes can get a break with a push from the coach. However, at those same schools there is a baseline or minimum for everything even athletes who are on the lower end of the spectrum.
I would add at some of those same schools, student-athletes are competing for admissions just as much as coaches/programs are competing to get or recruit the student-athlete. So it can be a matter of "fit" and one lower range ACT kid may be the only "concession" that year because there can be many elite candidates to pick from. Because of that, you won't really find a whole team in the Ivy League, Nescac, UAA, etc. with all lower academically achieving student athletes because the admissions competition is a two way dynamic.
Music and Art Majors at NJCU would also get a push from the chairs of the respective departments for admission. These are Majors where the freshman martriculate directly into their major due to the time and course requirements. If you have a dancer, musician, artist, actor etc that have obvious talent but their grades or test scores are not the best they will get in. KS speaks from personal experience.
Again, forgive my ignorance, but must public universities really adhere to more strict standards? Do they really not have as much leniency as private schools do? I guess that makes sense when you think about it.
Sometimes, I think that this debate falls into the "Lake Webegon" phase where every child is above normal. The D3 debate that goes on here is the stigma placed on the athlete is 49th %ile of the student body. Then, he/she is labeled.
IMHO, the more accurate assessment is whether the student is more than 2SD below the mean. Then the school should seriously consider whether the student should be admitted.
What percentage of the student body should be permitted to be at the fringe of the class? Out of 400 incoming freshmen, a reasonably sized freshman class in D3, 10 students will be statistical outliers by definition.
I bristle at the elitist snobbery that thinks that the only intelligence worth having in the academic institution is "linguisitic" and/or maybe "logical mathematical" intelligence. It takes a divers student body to represent the various types of intelligence as proposed in Harvard Professor Howard Gardner's theories of multiple intelligences. If a student can do acceptible work in the core subjects of the institution, then that student's expression of his/her (God-given) intelligence is a valuable contribution to the academic community.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 27, 2009, 03:52:26 PM
Sometimes, I think that this debate falls into the "Lake Webegon" phase where every child is above normal. The D3 debate that goes on here is the stigma placed on the athlete is 49th %ile of the student body. Then, he/she is labeled.
IMHO, the more accurate assessment is whether the student is more than 2SD below the mean. Then the school should seriously consider whether the student should be admitted.
What percentage of the student body should be permitted to be at the fringe of the class? Out of 400 incoming freshmen, a reasonably sized freshman class in D3, 10 students will be statistical outliers by definition.
I bristle at the elitist snobbery that thinks that the only intelligence worth having in the academic institution is "linguisitic" and/or maybe "logical mathematical" intelligence. It takes a divers student body to represent the various types of intelligence as proposed in Harvard Professor Howard Gardner's theories of multiple intelligences. If a student can do acceptible work in the core subjects of the institution, then that student's expression of his/her (God-given) intelligence is a valuable contribution to the academic community.
In my case I was admitted although my HS grades were below the admission standards for NJCU nee JCSC. I had a strong c- average in HS. I was accepted based on my guitar professors recommendation, the recommendation of my private guitar teacher and also on my SAT scores which were above 1200, my Navy record and my NJ Machinist Apprentice courses. Of course there are elite schools out there that will admit someone who can't pour piss out of a shoe if the directions were written on the heel but Daddy or Mommy gives the school a ****load of money and all of a sudden little Rockhead is in college.
I suppose we could say that standards fluctuate for talented applicants, but I also think its safe to say that the percentage of the leeway granted to athletes is lower at d3 schools than d1. It's not as much about revenue generation, so other areas of interest (besides athletics) also have some sway.
HF, true.
Quote from: CarrollStreaks on October 27, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
Again, forgive my ignorance, but must public universities really adhere to more strict standards? Do they really not have as much leniency as private schools do? I guess that makes sense when you think about it.
I know in the Umass system, there is a formula for gpa and sat scores that determines someones admission. Im pretty sure there is very little else a school can do if you dont meet basic gpa and sat requirments.
I know a kid that got turned down by every MA public school but got into some half-way decent private schools.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/09/04/harvards_admissions_of_gilt/
Quote from: cush on October 28, 2009, 03:05:39 PM
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/09/04/harvards_admissions_of_gilt/
Does anyone else see the irony in the original post? Guilt is, of course, spelled "GUILT..." "Gilt" is the past participle of gild, which means to cover with gold... and it was written by Dan Golden.
...back to your regularly scheduled discussion....
Quote from: cush on October 28, 2009, 03:05:39 PM
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/09/04/harvards_admissions_of_gilt/
Yes, I thought that the headline was what I expected from the Boston Globe. Specifically that creative turn of the word was, shall we use a neologism, "inciteful".
Quote from: CarrollStreaks on October 27, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
Again, forgive my ignorance, but must public universities really adhere to more strict standards? Do they really not have as much leniency as private schools do? I guess that makes sense when you think about it.
CS,
The Rev has just finished a couple courses in College Counseling. The Rev wouldn't say that the public schools have
stricter standards, but rather they are stricter in
applying their standards.
What I mean by that is a private school may require grades that are 90% or higher, while a public school may require grades 80% or higher. So the standard at the private school is stricter. Now when it actually comes to applying the standard. At a private school, an applicant could have a grade lower than 90 and the private school can be flexible. For example, a 85 in English isn't going to sink the kid. In an application to the public school, every grade must meet the minimum grade. A kid could have all 100s except one grade that is below 80%, the app will be rejected. (Nota bene: not all states will necessarily be as strict as this.)
The Rev failed 9th grade, passing only Health, Gym, English and Social Studies. The second round of 9th grade, The Rev only failed one course, and barely passed a couple of others. 10th grade was better, not only no failures, but nothing below 85. 11th grade was even better, with grades popping up into the 90's AND he was taking college prep courses rather than basic courses. Senior year, The Rev had all high 90's.
The Rev was rejected by the second and third rate SUNY schools, but was accepted by Beloit and Hobart. Beloit and Hobart looked favorably upon at The Rev's transformation from a spaz to a top-notch student. SUNY did not have the capability built into the system to allow a person who was a recovered spaz, even though The Rev's sophomore, junior and senior grades blew the doors off of the requirements of the lower SUNYs.
Quote from: Rt Rev J.H. Hobart on November 01, 2009, 01:32:22 AM
Quote from: CarrollStreaks on October 27, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
Again, forgive my ignorance, but must public universities really adhere to more strict standards? Do they really not have as much leniency as private schools do? I guess that makes sense when you think about it.
CS,
The Rev has just finished a couple courses in College Counseling. The Rev wouldn't say that the public schools have stricter standards, but rather they are stricter in applying their standards.
What I mean by that is a private school may require grades that are 90% or higher, while a public school may require grades 80% or higher. So the standard at the private school is stricter. Now when it actually comes to applying the standard. At a private school, an applicant could have a grade lower than 90 and the private school can be flexible. For example, a 85 in English isn't going to sink the kid. In an application to the public school, every grade must meet the minimum grade. A kid could have all 100s except one grade that is below 80%, the app will be rejected. (Nota bene: not all states will necessarily be as strict as this.)
The Rev failed 9th grade, passing only Health, Gym, English and Social Studies. The second round of 9th grade, The Rev only failed one course, and barely passed a couple of others. 10th grade was better, not only no failures, but nothing below 85. 11th grade was even better, with grades popping up into the 90's AND he was taking college prep courses rather than basic courses. Senior year, The Rev had all high 90's.
The Rev was rejected by the second and third rate SUNY schools, but was accepted by Beloit and Hobart. Beloit and Hobart looked favorably upon at The Rev's transformation from a spaz to a top-notch student. SUNY did not have the capability built into the system to allow a person who was a recovered spaz, even though The Rev's sophomore, junior and senior grades blew the doors off of the requirements of the lower SUNYs.
Yeah, I know what you mean...
The "testosteronization" of an adolescent boy's brain is not a pretty thing.
The characterization of Spock's cranium in the third Star Trek movie (when the planet was cracking up) was quite a fitting cinematic depiction of the process.
Quote from: Rt Rev J.H. Hobart on November 01, 2009, 01:32:22 AM
Quote from: CarrollStreaks on October 27, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
Again, forgive my ignorance, but must public universities really adhere to more strict standards? Do they really not have as much leniency as private schools do? I guess that makes sense when you think about it.
CS,
The Rev has just finished a couple courses in College Counseling. The Rev wouldn't say that the public schools have stricter standards, but rather they are stricter in applying their standards.
What I mean by that is a private school may require grades that are 90% or higher, while a public school may require grades 80% or higher. So the standard at the private school is stricter. Now when it actually comes to applying the standard. At a private school, an applicant could have a grade lower than 90 and the private school can be flexible. For example, a 85 in English isn't going to sink the kid. In an application to the public school, every grade must meet the minimum grade. A kid could have all 100s except one grade that is below 80%, the app will be rejected. (Nota bene: not all states will necessarily be as strict as this.)
The Rev failed 9th grade, passing only Health, Gym, English and Social Studies. The second round of 9th grade, The Rev only failed one course, and barely passed a couple of others. 10th grade was better, not only no failures, but nothing below 85. 11th grade was even better, with grades popping up into the 90's AND he was taking college prep courses rather than basic courses. Senior year, The Rev had all high 90's.
The Rev was rejected by the second and third rate SUNY schools, but was accepted by Beloit and Hobart. Beloit and Hobart looked favorably upon at The Rev's transformation from a spaz to a top-notch student. SUNY did not have the capability built into the system to allow a person who was a recovered spaz, even though The Rev's sophomore, junior and senior grades blew the doors off of the requirements of the lower SUNYs.
Gotcha. That's what I was thinking when I made the above statement, though I didn't explain it as eloquently or thoroughly as you did.
Here is a post from the ND board about their standards for football players:
http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=8592;d=this
I do not know what a given admissions department might, or might not, do in order to bring a student athlete to a school. I can tell you, after four years of living amongst a number of d-III athletes, the faculty gave NO BREAKS!
Guys missed practice to finish chem labs, not the opposite.
Article from ESPN about Admissions Exceptions for D1 Athletes:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4781264
Quote
At Texas, the average SAT score for a freshman football player from 2003 to 2005 was 945 -- or 320 points lower than the typical first-year student's score on the entrance exam.
Quote from: Joe Wally on December 22, 2009, 09:34:59 AM
I do not know what a given admissions department might, or might not, do in order to bring a student athlete to a school. I can tell you, after four years of living amongst a number of d-III athletes, the faculty gave NO BREAKS!
Guys missed practice to finish chem labs, not the opposite.
At UWSP, there were some pro-athlete profs and some who were anti-athlete. Luckily, I never had any that were dead-set against student athletes and I had plenty who cheered us on as we played, but I heard some ugly stories.
Quote from: Wydown Blvd. on December 30, 2009, 12:11:52 PM
Article from ESPN about Admissions Exceptions for D1 Athletes:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4781264
Quote
At Texas, the average SAT score for a freshman football player from 2003 to 2005 was 945 -- or 320 points lower than the typical first-year student's score on the entrance exam.
Amusingly, from the same article:
QuoteTexas was one of seven schools that reported no use of special admissions, instead describing "holistic" standards that consider each applicant individually rather than relying on minimum test scores and grade-point averages.
AKA if you can play the football at a high enough level, that 'holistic standard' gets you into the school regardless of whether or not you can tie your shoelaces by yourself. That 945 is an AVERAGE ... meaning there are students getting in who got most of their score from completing the name and address section correctly. Crimeny.
"Holistic" means that a hole exists where SAT scores should be.
+1 lol
Wydown: Treat yourself to a pizza at Pi!
Great stuff isnt it! I have been several times. I still have a little east coast in me though and can eat a whole pie with extra cheese from Brooklyn.