Hey guys I was hoping to get some information as to what teams in D3 Football run the triple option. Thanks in advance.
Springfield College and Salisbury off the top of my head.
Ripon College and UW-River Falls in WI
Quote from: Redmen09 on September 15, 2010, 06:19:07 PM
Ripon College and UW-River Falls in WI
Incorrect about UWRF. They stopped running the 'bone a couple years ago, maybe '06 or '07. They run a multiple set offense featuring the running of one back (Taylor Edwards). They throw the ball more in 1 season now than they did in 10 years running the wishbone.
Ah good to know, haven't looked into that in awhile
Five schools mentioned in there, and really No. 6 at the time (W&L) runs it too.
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010/giving-themselves-options
Of course, the triple option does not have to be limited to the wishbone.
Quote from: frank uible on November 19, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
Of course, the triple option does not have to be limited to the wishbone.
Nor does the option have to be limited to the triple option. Was just telling the guys last week about speed option, belly option, dive option. You can run it from the flexbone or with wingbacks, from the I, etc.
And then of course read option is all the rage these days.
Perhaps another discussion for another day, but I was reminding myself to be careful how I describe the option and delinate between offenses. It came up with regard to how we should describe what W&L was running (a multiple spread option offense, with occasional triple option plays? Haven't seen it, that was my best guess) :)
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 19, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
Of course, the triple option does not have to be limited to the wishbone.
It came up with regard to how we should describe what W&L was running (a multiple spread option offense, with occasional triple option plays? Haven't seen it, that was my best guess) :)
I think part of the problem with defining W&L's option is that as near as I can tell it's a package of plays that the qb runs well. The whole offense is more or less geared around Westphal and what he is comfortable doing. It seems to me they took as many different option ideas as could be found, let him run them in practice, and wrote a playbook around the ones he liked. Kind of odd, but it worked pretty well this year. I guess with the problems W&L has recruiting and retaining appropriate kids there just isn't much choice but to build around what you have instead of recruiting to fit a specific system.
Quote from: jknezek on November 24, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 19, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
Of course, the triple option does not have to be limited to the wishbone.
It came up with regard to how we should describe what W&L was running (a multiple spread option offense, with occasional triple option plays? Haven't seen it, that was my best guess) :)
I think part of the problem with defining W&L's option is that as near as I can tell it's a package of plays that the qb runs well. The whole offense is more or less geared around Westphal and what he is comfortable doing. It seems to me they took as many different option ideas as could be found, let him run them in practice, and wrote a playbook around the ones he liked. Kind of odd, but it worked pretty well this year. I guess with the problems W&L has recruiting and retaining appropriate kids there just isn't much choice but to build around what you have instead of recruiting to fit a specific system.
Interestingly enough, Coach Kehres was quoted in a coaching article regarding this very thing. He and his staff sit down after every year is over, evaluate who they have coming back, and what their strengths are as players. They then design their offense around those skill sets. That is why in the 90's Mount was more of a passing team, but morphed into a strong running team with Moore, Pugh, and Kmic. Now I think they are more of a balanced attack, but at the end of the day will rely more on throwing to Shorts & Miller.
I don't think you can be "just" a running team if your goal is to get far in the play-offs. Defenses are just too good at that level. Unless your QB can consistently get to option #4 (throwing) with skill, they will eventually be shut down.
Quote from: skunks_sidekick on November 24, 2010, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 24, 2010, 10:18:35 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 19, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
Of course, the triple option does not have to be limited to the wishbone.
It came up with regard to how we should describe what W&L was running (a multiple spread option offense, with occasional triple option plays? Haven't seen it, that was my best guess) :)
I think part of the problem with defining W&L's option is that as near as I can tell it's a package of plays that the qb runs well. The whole offense is more or less geared around Westphal and what he is comfortable doing. It seems to me they took as many different option ideas as could be found, let him run them in practice, and wrote a playbook around the ones he liked. Kind of odd, but it worked pretty well this year. I guess with the problems W&L has recruiting and retaining appropriate kids there just isn't much choice but to build around what you have instead of recruiting to fit a specific system.
Interestingly enough, Coach Kehres was quoted in a coaching article regarding this very thing. He and his staff sit down after every year is over, evaluate who they have coming back, and what their strengths are as players. They then design their offense around those skill sets. That is why in the 90's Mount was more of a passing team, but morphed into a strong running team with Moore, Pugh, and Kmic. Now I think they are more of a balanced attack, but at the end of the day will rely more on throwing to Shorts & Miller.
I don't think you can be "just" a running team if your goal is to get far in the play-offs. Defenses are just too good at that level. Unless your QB can consistently get to option #4 (throwing) with skill, they will eventually be shut down.
I have no doubt that most teams do this kind of evaluation. I just find W&L's option attack to be so varied among the types of option sets, and yet so consistent among the plays they actually run, that it seems an odd combination. As for W&L running deep in the playoffs... I'm not sure I'd live to see the day. It's hard to imagine too many circumstances that would bring enough of the right kinds of kids to W&L for any system. But then again, when I was there in the late 90s if you said W&L would win the ODAC twice in 5 years we'd have all been a bit shocked. I guess that's why we play the games!
(was also in the ODAC in the late 90s and never lost to W&L even though they were never the worst team we played either)
Very true about Kehres. From Ballard, Borchert & Smeck through the latest incarnations, they've always done what they have the players to do.
The '05 championship season was one of the most impressive too because I think that was not only the first without Montgomery, but I think like Matt Campbell or somebody was calling the plays and Zac Bruney maybe was in on it, and Vince had the D ... someone correct me if I'm sketchy on the details. (I'm sure I wrote about it and could look them up on this here site). But basically many of the key assistant coaching spots turned over and Larry let them grow into their roles during the course of the season with just enough hands-on and just enough hands-off.
^ Yup.
Quote from: K-Mack on December 09, 2010, 09:40:58 PM
(was also in the ODAC in the late 90s and never lost to W&L even though they were never the worst team we played either)
Very true about Kehres. From Ballard, Borchert & Smeck through the latest incarnations, they've always done what they have the players to do.
The '05 championship season was one of the most impressive too because I think that was not only the first without Montgomery, but I think like Matt Campbell or somebody was calling the plays and Zac Bruney maybe was in on it, and Vince had the D ... someone correct me if I'm sketchy on the details. (I'm sure I wrote about it and could look them up on this here site). But basically many of the key assistant coaching spots turned over and Larry let them grow into their roles during the course of the season with just enough hands-on and just enough hands-off.
I seem to remember Coach Kehres taking over the offensive play calling duties in the Stagg bowl that year though...
Quote from: Manuel Willocq on December 10, 2010, 07:51:09 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 09, 2010, 09:40:58 PM
(was also in the ODAC in the late 90s and never lost to W&L even though they were never the worst team we played either)
Very true about Kehres. From Ballard, Borchert & Smeck through the latest incarnations, they've always done what they have the players to do.
The '05 championship season was one of the most impressive too because I think that was not only the first without Montgomery, but I think like Matt Campbell or somebody was calling the plays and Zac Bruney maybe was in on it, and Vince had the D ... someone correct me if I'm sketchy on the details. (I'm sure I wrote about it and could look them up on this here site). But basically many of the key assistant coaching spots turned over and Larry let them grow into their roles during the course of the season with just enough hands-on and just enough hands-off.
I seem to remember Coach Kehres taking over the offensive play calling duties in the Stagg bowl that year though...
Who called the plays during the 2003 Stagg?
Come on, a Johnnie has to cling to that.
Speaking of the Johnnies, they ran a "quadruple option" in the late '70s, including during their 1976 title. Set a bunch of rushing records and Gagliardi basically installed it after first using his kids as guinea pigs in the backyard during the summer.
Quote from: sfury on December 10, 2010, 05:31:49 PM
Quote from: Manuel Willocq on December 10, 2010, 07:51:09 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 09, 2010, 09:40:58 PM
(was also in the ODAC in the late 90s and never lost to W&L even though they were never the worst team we played either)
Very true about Kehres. From Ballard, Borchert & Smeck through the latest incarnations, they've always done what they have the players to do.
The '05 championship season was one of the most impressive too because I think that was not only the first without Montgomery, but I think like Matt Campbell or somebody was calling the plays and Zac Bruney maybe was in on it, and Vince had the D ... someone correct me if I'm sketchy on the details. (I'm sure I wrote about it and could look them up on this here site). But basically many of the key assistant coaching spots turned over and Larry let them grow into their roles during the course of the season with just enough hands-on and just enough hands-off.
I seem to remember Coach Kehres taking over the offensive play calling duties in the Stagg bowl that year though...
Who called the plays during the 2003 Stagg?
Come on, a Johnnie has to cling to that.
Speaking of the Johnnies, they ran a "quadruple option" in the late '70s, including during their 1976 title. Set a bunch of rushing records and Gagliardi basically installed it after first using his kids as guinea pigs in the backyard during the summer.
Probably LK, but who called the SJU plays in 1993?
I don't recall that game. The teams met that year? ;)
Actually, per SJU tradition, and especially since the guy was a senior that year, the QB probably called the plays.
That was the year we left the sprinklers on all night and flooded the field.
;)
I know you were kidding, but LK took the blame for the Burghardt pick to Zauhar.
That '03 St. John's team is a great example though of what makes Mount Union and now UWW so great. SJU has many of the same advantages -- going on the recruiting trail able to tout great coaching, great tradition, championships -- yet they are not able to sustain the same level of dominance. St. John's is frequently highly ranked and ends up in the playoffs, but they stumble every now and again.
Mount Union and UWW over six seasons have never stumbled (in the playoffs anyway). That's remarkable and speaks more to how good they are than how bad everyone else is or how weighted the system is. They can be beaten. They trail or are within one score in the second half of a lot of these games ... and they keep pulling them out.
Anyway, here's '05 as recapped in that year's YIR. Item 29:
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2010, 03:30:49 PM
Found what I was talking about re: Kehres. Just occurred to me that wasn't on this thread, but HSCoach it was item 29.
Candle and Campbell called plays, and Bruney coached QBs.
http://archive.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2006-01-27/105+ways+to+remember+2005
And yes, somehow this all relates to the triple option. lol
dlip must say he loves him some triple option! ;D
To dlip, for the most part, it seems as if teams running the TO have not really made deep runs into the playoffs at any college level (for the most part). You have Springfield and Salisbury among other respected programs that run this O, that are usually in the top 25 discussion, and have success within their respective leagues but overall these teams are few and far between.
Do you build a team around your O or your O around your team? To dlip buidling your offense around the talent and ability you have makes the most sense and seems to be most effective.
We have seen, at certain levels, the TO helping teams with size/skill disadvantages (ex. military academys) play up to higher competition with some success. We have also seen some teams with top level talent/size etc (Georgia Tech) struggle to break a plateau and reach a certainn level of success that is expected from them.
The triple option is beautiful when run well but just to one dimensional in the end for dlip to really put any worth behind it. he will always love watching teams run it though.
Quote from: dlip on December 14, 2010, 02:32:59 PM
dlip must say he loves him some triple option! ;D
To dlip, for the most part, it seems as if teams running the TO have not really made deep runs into the playoffs at any college level (for the most part).
Ok I realize you said (for the most part) but check this. Navy and GT both got their offence from Georgia Southern...A team that was started in 82 and since won 6 National Championships, 2 national finalists, 8 Southern Conference championships an overall winning percentage of .721 and in the playoffs they boast a 41-10 record...Though I dont remember our all time playoff destinations I know we made it to the national semifinal again this season..The triple option works.
That being said I think its slightly ineffective at the FBS level because there the teams in bowl games have a month or moe straight to "relearn" defense. but when you have just a week in the playoff format....its unstopable if executed well.
From the ASC board
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 19, 2011, 09:06:33 PM
NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/sports/ncaafootball/11bellard.html)
"My San Antonio" article (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/article/Ex-Aggies-football-coach-Emory-Bellard-dies-at-83-1007140.php)
Creator of the Wishbone as a Darrell Royal assistant coach.
He coached the legendary Breckenridge Buckaroos to state championships in 1958 and 1959 and then the 1966 San Angelo Bobacats out of UIL 3-AAAA. District 3-AAAA was known as the "Little Southwest Conference", when only the district champion made the playoffs. That district had numerous state finalists from San Angelo Central, Abilene Cooper and Odessa Permian in those years from the mid 60's onward.
The triple option reaches at least as far back as the late 30s with Don Faurot and the University of Missouri, the wishbone originating in the 70s being only one form of the triple option.
Quote from: frank uible on March 05, 2011, 03:54:21 AM
The triple option reaches at least as far back as the late 30s with Don Faurot and the University of Missouri, the wishbone originating in the 70s being only one form of the triple option.
Thanks for the info/leads, Frank.
I googled Don Faurot to find out more.
This was the webpage that gave the most info quickest.
http://www.mutigers.com/trads/miss-split-t.html
This article about the Split-T discusses how the Split-T came to Oklahoma U with Jim Tatum and Bid Wilkinson from Faurot's time coaching at Iowa Pre-Flight in World War II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-T
You are welcome.
Im hoping the option makes a comeback. Im tired of the Spread, and Air Raid, and Pistol. Boring. IMHO
Quote from: etbu27 on March 05, 2011, 05:35:02 PM
Im hoping the option makes a comeback. Im tired of the Spread, and Air Raid, and Pistol. Boring. IMHO
There's a reason why you don't see triple-option teams go deep into the playoffs anymore. They're too one demensional to succeed, especially against a quick defense.
Nothing boring about winning championships
....definitely not trying to be THAT guy. But I disagree with that. See my previous comment. Its about an intelligent offense taking advantage of any and every defensive breakdown.
But, it's one dimentional. You find a team that can shut it down and it becomes a boring game because you know that team has no other answer for the defense that can shut down the triple option. Give me a team that can run and throw the ball in a balanced attack any day of the week.
Georgia Tech has had an advantage recently because the other ACC teams have not seen other teams running the triple option. Now that the othe ACC teams have had a few years to study Tech they will start figuring them out and shutting them down.
Quote from: etbu27 on March 07, 2011, 09:13:30 PM
....definitely not trying to be THAT guy. But I disagree with that. See my previous comment. Its about an intelligent offense taking advantage of any and every defensive breakdown.
rarely do you see it succeed....if it's so successful, then every offensive coordinator will be using it. That's why Army, Navy, etc resort to use this offense....these teams realize they don't have the offensive talent to compete with the bigs boys so they use the tiple option (smoke and mirrors) to try to win.
Very rarely do championship caliber teams (USC, Texas, Alabama, Auburn, Mount Union, UWW, etc...) utilize that style of offense....and there's a good reason for that.
I think another reason that the Service Academies use the Triple Offense is that their Lineman are not big enough to compete head to head with other D1 schools. The misdirection of the Triple Offense, along with the blocking schemes, allows them to compete better.
I think there are physical requirements to be Cadets and they can [EDIT: not] have the HUGE lineman that a non-academy school has.
Id agree with that statement, service academies also instill a higher level of discipline as well. As for shutting it down, its possible but there are always defensive breakdowns. Like holding, it happens every play....but youve got to have a decent enough offense exploit this.