www.theseniorreports.com/naiadiv3.htm
Jamestown College president Robert Badal says the school plans to make a decision on the future home of its athletics program by the end of the year.
Badal expressed optimism about the options the school is considering.
"Compared to where we were just a year ago, we feel like we're standing a lot taller," he said. "There have been a few ups and downs, but overall I have to say I'm optimistic about the options we have in front of us."
The school won't rush the decision, but expects to make a recommendation to the board in the next five or six months.
I am thinking that they might end up in the UMAC, but a team called the "Jimmes" would be right at home with the Johnnies, the Tommies, the Oles, the Gusties and the Cobbers. :)
I question the accuracy of this article, in particular this line:
"It would also allow them [Jamestown] to remain in the NAIA, which permits recruiting and scholarships, which their other option does not."
The "other option" mentioned in the article is the UMAC ... and, as far as I know, the UMAC allows its schools to recruit athletes.
Yeah -- we didn't link the Jamestown Sun story from our What We're Reading section because of that error and because it just didn't seem to have any clue what it takes to join the NCAA.
Pat,
Thank you for keeping the radioman properly educated.
Quote from: Gray Fox on July 28, 2011, 03:32:14 PM
Pat,
Thank you for keeping the radioman properly educated.
Doesn't look to me as though radiodave is the one who needs educating. He merely passed along a link to a local newspaper story from up there in North Dakota that was written by someone on staff who didn't do his research vis-a-vis D3.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 28, 2011, 04:41:26 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on July 28, 2011, 03:32:14 PM
Pat,
Thank you for keeping the radioman properly educated.
Doesn't look to me as though radiodave is the one who needs educating. He merely passed along a link to a local newspaper story from up there in North Dakota that was written by someone on staff who didn't do his research vis-a-vis D3.
It's sad how many media folks have no idea what D3 is all about ....
Warren, possibly D3 needs to do a better job of this, ...Jamestown paper does a good job of covering college athletics and they have covered NAIA more then D3. The story was based on information given to him most likely from the President of JC. We post that info on our site, because it is news...
Doing everything from D1 to NAIA, D3 sends out a mixed signal depending on what schools you are talking about. I also work with HS coaches who have athletes being recruited from D3 schools who tell me some interesting stories. D3 is a big group of schools, so that will happen for sure.
But to not link to a story because the writer was reporting on a story based on a mis-interpatation of D3 and you don't agree with it. Don't be surprised (as we have said on our site) that more NAIA schools will look at D3, because of the tougher entrance standards and costs to be D2.
If you are on FB take a look at this site from Georgetown College, they are looking at D3...look at how these folks view it...might surprise you - https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Help-Save-The-Georgetown-College-Athletic-Tradition/172419416146549
Quote from: radiodavel on July 28, 2011, 05:32:31 PMBut to not link to a story because the writer was reporting on a story based on a mis-interpatation of D3 and you don't agree with it. Don't be surprised (as we have said on our site) that more NAIA schools will look at D3, because of the tougher entrance standards and costs to be D2.
"Looking at" and "getting into" are two completely different things. Yes, D2 is running a tighter ship than it used to, but it still lets in ten new members a year. D3, by contrast, only lets in four per year. Any school investigating a switch from NAIA to a non-D1 NCAA division will be made aware of that.
Quote from: radiodavel on February 27, 1974, 05:21:15 AM1If you are on FB take a look at this site from Georgetown College, they are looking at D3...look at how these folks view it...might surprise you - https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Help-Save-The-Georgetown-College-Athletic-Tradition/172419416146549
Doesn't surprise me one bit. I've followed D3 sports for over three decades now, and I am well aware that the perception of D3 among the general population of American sports fans is that it's nothing more than glorified intramurals. Why should the Georgetown alumni be an exception? If anything, their anti-D3 attitude is heightened even more by the fact that G'town has had a great history in more than one sport in the NAIA ranks -- although, as the initial media reports seemed to indicate, the school no longer has the financial werewithal to be competitive across the board in the NAIA anymore and is now more or less a "basketball school."
Someone should share Rhodes Scholar's NAIA vs. D3 basketball tables for the past decade with the protesting Georgetown alumni. It'd be an eye-opener for them to find out that D3 is not the step down that they think it is.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 28, 2011, 05:32:31 PM
But to not link to a story because the writer was reporting on a story based on a mis-interpatation of D3 and you don't agree with it.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean since it's kind of an incomplete thought, but I figured I'd better respond -- there is nothing to be gained for D3sports.com to be giving any credence to an incorrect news report. Why would we endorse a news report that claims that Division III schools can't recruit? What if someone were to follow our link to that story and believe it, because the authority on Division III sports linked to it?
Recent trend suggests it's the opposite, by the way. More schools are going D-II at this point, and honestly, that's just fine. There are a lot of Division III schools.
Pat...why don't you contact the author and explain to him how this all works. Most sports folks I know appreciate knowing the facts.
Censoring a news story from a very good newspaper because it doesn't have exactlly what you think he needs in it is almost amusing. You have to decide if you are going to be a "cheerleader" for D3 or if your site is going to get the information to your readers. I think most of the folks on the site can figure out what they believe in.
I have to agree with Pat on this one, Dave. The Jamestown Sun article included misinformation that has not yet been corrected, either with an erratum by the newspaper itself or through a response in a comments section (there doesn't appear to be a comments section available for the article).
In this case, "exactly what you [Pat] thinks he needs" is the facts, and the article includes a statement that is contrary to the facts. And it's not a sidebar issue, either; in a story about whether a school will choose to stay in the NAIA or move to D3, a statement about the rules of D3 that will affect the decision is absolutely crucial to the content of the story.
This is not about Pat being a cheerleader. This is about Pat doing his job properly as an editor.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 28, 2011, 06:42:53 PMYou have to decide if you are going to be a "cheerleader" for D3 or if your site is going to get the information to your readers.
Here's where we differ, radiodavel. I don't consider that "information" if it's incorrect. I'm not going to pass along
misinformation to the readers if I can at all help it. If you know my credentials you know I come from a serious journalistic background.
I didn't really have time to write an email yesterday while I was in Indianapolis meeting with the NCAA Division III folks. I do often send corrections to members of the media, but I don't actually have the same experience as you about the receptiveness of writers.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 28, 2011, 07:39:28 PMI didn't really have time to write an email yesterday while I was in Indianapolis meeting with the NCAA Division III folks. I do often send corrections to members of the media, but I don't actually have the same experience as you about the receptiveness of writers.
In this case, I'm happy to report that the writer in question,
Jamestown Sun sports editor Dave Selvig, was quite receptive. I e-mailed him this afternoon and told him about the error. He went online and changed it himself. The newly-redacted piece can be viewed here. (http://www.jamestownsun.com/event/article/id/140781/group/Sports/) The section about the UMAC and D3 is now a little garbled and repetitive as a result of his quick online rewrite, but the offending statement about the UMAC and/or D3 not allowing recruiting has been removed.
Good. I find receptiveness to be a little hit-or-miss. :)
Gregory...good for you for writing him and he proved my point...he is a good sports guy. It was not intentional, but based on what information was given to him.
He has another story tonight and it sheds some good insight on what Jamestown is considering.
D3 needs to do a better job, just take a look at the Georgetown FB page...look at U of New Orleans and Kentucky Wesleyan. The fans all have the same impression of D3.
It's hard to educate people who won't listen. The national media doesn't tell this story. Someone at Georgetown isn't going to learn it from the NCAA site -- why would they go there?
(And would the NCAA site tell the story well? Probably not, let's be honest.)
There you go Pat, create a site that answers all of those questions. It would be a good resource.
The sportswriter in question displayed willful ignorance and or laziness in writing the original article. I am glad that he was receptive to correcting the error(s). If he was dedicated to his craft he would, as a part of due diligence, understand the philosophies of the NAIA as well as the various divisions of the NCAA as it might relate to the story. The information is easily accessible to anyone with an internet connection and or a phone.
Dave,
Twice you have said that the writer relied on information given to him. By whom? If the sole "authority" on Division III he contacted was a Jamestown employee, he was practicing lazy journalism. If you don't know the rules of Division III, you either check with the NCAA or - at worst - you cite said employee as your source of information. Frankly, it would have been a better article had he said, "According to Jamestown Employee X, 'Division III does not allow recruiting or scholarships,' but, in checking with the NCAA, in turns out that recruiting is very much a part of Division III, though athletic scholarships are not permitted," or something to that effect. That would educate the readership about the nature of Division III AND about Jamestown's ignorance of it. If someone at Jamestown thinks recruiting isn't allowed in Division III, they can stay the hell away.
Division III is a choice. It should not simply be a "worst-case scenario" for schools who have run out of money to sponsor scholarship athletics. There is a lot more to being a TRUE Division III school than simply not giving out athletic aid. Thank goodness UNO went Division II - no one at that institution was committed to Division III (other than as a means to keep some sort of intercollegiate athletic program) and it was fairly obvious from the beginning.
As for the Georgetown (KY), Kentucky Wesleyan, and UNO fans ... yes, we all wish folks were better educated about Division III, but go back and look at some archives of the stuff coming out of Birmingham when Birmingham-Southern announced a move to Division III. There was plenty of backlash and threats, but what did they lead to? Nothing. B-SC is doing just fine and the folks who didn't come around to Division III and bailed on the school don't seem to be missed.
And frankly it's completely laughable that the Georgetown folks think it's some sort of big step down - in terms of reputation, not competitiveness. The general public may see DIII as being the "intramural" level of the NCAA, but that same general public, by and large, has little if any idea of what the NAIA even is ...
Division III has over 400 schools - it doesn't NEED new members. If a school wants to join and is truly committed to Division III ideals and doesn't believe a student's continued financial aid should be tied to whether or not he or she continues to play sports* - then by all means, they should be welcomed. But this is not simply a division for "your tired and your poor."
*Funny how few people think of athletic scholarships that way. The thinking is always about getting that initial scholarship offer and not about the fact that the affordability of your education is now directly tied to your continued participation in an incredibly time-consuming co-curricular activity. An activity which, frankly, at many scholarship schools, becomes very much a full-time job. That is a challenge and not something everyone can do. Wonder how many low-income athletic-scholarship athletes who left school may have succeeded not playing sports, taking JUCO classes, and then finishing their education at a public institution. Remember the commercial? "Nearly all of us go pro in something other than sports?" Unless you are going to end up with a lucrative pro contract (which very few, if any, recruits can bank on), the end goal for any prospective college student should be a degree. Sure, maybe you want a degree from Big Name U instead of Podunk City College or even the University of Phoenix, but an actual degree from anywhere is by and large worth more than an incomplete education for anywhere else. I think there are a lot of kids out there who miss out on that, because they and/or their parents were sold on the idea that spending countless hours tied to their scholarship sport and being at the beckon call of their coaches was the only way to get a degree - and they simply can't pull off that balance. Graduation rates for Division III student-athletes as a whole are far better than graduation rates for student-athletes from athletic scholarship schools. Shouldn't that be the other way around?! If you're going to tie financial aid to athletic participation then shouldn't you be making damn well sure that the kids who are getting said aid succeed in college?? Otherwise, you've failed them miserably. Imagine if there was a school with a work-study program that gave full rides to kids who worked 40 hours a week for the school's maintenance department. Now imagine if those kids graduated at a substantially lower rate than the general student body. Do you think that would be allowed to continue?
Dave,
I also find it humorous that you accuse Pat of being a Division III cheerleader and yet you have "liked" the "Help Save Georgetown ..." Facebook page. You do realize that their group is going to use the number of "likes" they have as an indication of the level of support against moving to Division III, right? Whether you mean to or not, you are expressing support for their cause simply by clicking "like."
Liking the page is the only way he can spread his links onto it.
wow, you guys need to chill...the Jamestown sports guy, did a good job overall on the story....calling that guy names over this is really not needed.
excuse me but D3 is not God's gift to athletics...all levels have their pros and cons, good points and bad points, quality members and those who just get by. I work with all levels, none are perfect...remember when you point a finger at someone , 4 are pointing back at you.
But to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.
If that is how you all believe, you might as well cancel your newspaper or stop reading it on online, because I would say the majority of stories from news to entertainment are not perfect.
This site is an advocate for D3, but I always thought if it had info like a school considering D3 it would be posting. On my site, I value the input I get from readers and I really support and am thankful for writers like the guy in Jamestown.
My mailing list has many school officials on it. Most thank me for the service because they say it keeps them updated on what is actually going on and their association does not. NAIA site has not done a story on losing 8 quality schools, why? because it is not a positive, hiding that for that reason makes me wonder about them? Also, this past month...any school accepted for D2 as soon as they were notified they were in they had a release online...those who did not get in did not release one ( one did), why? My point you have to take the bad with the good.
D3 has an image problem, it's not a secret, that's why you all go ballistic when it is brought up.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:00:01 PMIf that is how you all believe, you might as well cancel your newspaper or stop reading it on online, because I would say the majority of stories from news to entertainment are not perfect.
Wow, thanks for the enlightening comment. No kidding. The point here wasn't that slipshod reporting doesn't happen, it's that you took Pat to task for not linking an article that included a pretty important factual error. Nobody is calling for the guy to be fired.
QuoteBut to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.
Do you have the faintest idea about journalistic responsibility? Pat is running a news site. He has an OBLIGATION to only link to content that meets his set of standards. You can argue what those standards should be, but the inference that he shouldn't have any standards in what he links to is preposterous.
QuoteD3 has an image problem, it's not a secret, that's why you all go ballistic when it is brought up.
Wow. Again, thanks for the newsflash. And, frankly, the main reason any of us are concerned about our "image" problem is that common misperceptions can lead students away from a Division III school that they would have actually really enjoyed attending. Division III is not, as a whole, hurting for schools OR students. We'll all be just fine if the misperceptions continue - the same way we've been fine for years with those misperceptions out there.
Sunny, yep, sure did "like" the GC site to share my opinion on this. I can wear a sweater with a big scarlet "L" on it. Yep and I share my link to my site, so they can see the info we have posted...doesn't cost anyone to be informed.
I shared my opinion, which is my option to do. I told them that many NAIA schools like them are looking at the NCAA, more D2 than D3, but still looking. I also posted when the NCAA accepted them for exploratory status, the school has still not informed them of this. I also am very familiar with GC, they are a D1 member and have a very successful program...D3 will be a change for them, just as a D3 school would be going the opposite direction.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:11:43 PM
Sunny, yep, sure did "like" the GC site to share my opinion on this. I can wear a sweater with a big scarlet "L" on it. Yep and I share my link to my site, so they can see the info we have posted...doesn't cost anyone to be informed.
I shared my opinion, which is my option to do. I told them that many NAIA schools like them are looking at the NCAA, more D2 than D3, but still looking. I also posted when the NCAA accepted them for exploratory status, the school has still not informed them of this. I also am very familiar with GC, they are a D1 member and have a very successful program...D3 will be a change for them, just as a D3 school would be going the opposite direction.
I will agree with the Georgetown "fans" on one thing ... if the school is "ashamed" to publicize that they are considering Division III, then, no they should not join Division III.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:00:01 PM
But to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.
In all honesty, to a journalist this would not be amazing at all. It's not just that it didn't meet "my standards" -- it was just plain wrong about Division III. My standards are the same as any serious journalist in that regard. We link to plenty of stuff that may not be particularly brilliantly written but if it gets a major fact wrong, or misspells a kid's name, stuff like that, there is no way I can use the D3sports.com brand to endorse it.
Perhaps that is what sets our sites apart from others. We are not a fan site -- we are a news site, and we take that mission seriously.
you are a news site that censors things you do not agree with, hey it's your site. You are also a D3 advocate and cheerleader, that is fine also. You are just like the NAIA site www.victorysportsnetwork.com , he has not posted the names of the 8 NAIA schools or releases on them being accepted into D2 or about GC looking at D3. He is an advocate of the NAIA.
As for me we cover all levels and have no connections or loyalty to any of them, we do talk and work with them, but we post the good and the bad. I also give my readers a lot of credit they are "big boys" who can make their own choices on what they believe when they read. They also know if it is related to the subject, we link to it or write about it.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:30:04 PM
you are a news site that censors things you do not agree with, hey it's your site. You are also a D3 advocate and cheerleader, that is fine also. You are just like the NAIA site www.victorysportsnetwork.com , he has not posted the names of the 8 NAIA schools or releases on them being accepted into D2 or about GC looking at D3. He is an advocate of the NAIA.
No. We omit NON-FACTS, Dave. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
We also do stories when programs announce they are leaving Division III, or choosing not to join.
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2010/12/mcmurry-to-move-to-d2
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2011/02/uno-chooses-d2
We definitely advocate for D-III. Cheerleader? I guess it depends on your definition. But we do not avoid the bad news at all.
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2011/07/kean-accused-of-fixing-grades
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2011/04/fontbonne-placed-on-probation
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/01/hobart-placed-on-probation
I'll ask that you refrain from characterizing our sites if you don't understand them.
Oh I understand your sites...you have every right to run it however you like, I am just stating the way I see it. Plus, several of the posters took a couple of "little shots" at me, which is ok, but they were also defending the honor of D3. I thought had the right to at least share my thoughts.
If you want to censor me from this site, that is not a problem with me.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:50:35 PM
Oh I understand your sites...you have every right to run it however you like, I am just stating the way I see it. Plus, several of the posters took a couple of "little shots" at me, which is ok, but they were also defending the honor of D3. I thought had the right to at least share my thoughts.
If you want to censor me from this site, that is not a problem with me.
I get that that's the way you see it. But clearly you either aren't looking at the sites, you don't understand journalism, or both.
You're taking shots, I guess it's not surprising that others are firing back.
I understand...it is ok for them (and you) to fire back at me, but I should be watching what I say..sounds fair to me...
When you go to your third or fourth attempt to convince people that we were wrong to omit linking to a factually incorrect story, I think you get what you get in terms of a response. At that point you're just trolling.
Methinks, Mr. Radiodavel, that you should look up what a 'censor' does. Failure to provide a link to an article containing factual errors does not equate to censorship.
Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the general body of people as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.
The Jamestown newspaper's ability to spread incorrect information regarding Division III (along with the rest of the story) was in no way harmed by any action, actual or alleged, taken by the owners of this site. The article's continued availability was never in doubt.
If you want to throw around loaded terms trying to make a point, please be sure they actually apply. The very fact that Pat allows you to continue to post here is a further indication that there's no 'censorship' going on.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:50:35 PM
Oh I understand your sites...you have every right to run it however you like, I am just stating the way I see it.
Dave, it seems to me that Pat has pretty effectively refuted "the way you see it." You claimed that he was a D3 cheerleader who, like that NAIA site you mentioned, would not pass along negative stories about the division. The links in his 2:44 post prove you wrong. And as for whether or not d3sports.com should've linked to the
Jamestown Sun article, that's a matter of opinion. I think that Pat's opinion is right: Accuracy is everything when it comes to journalism. A name spelled incorrectly, or an article that's written inelegantly or is filled with typos ... that's something that the reader can wade through. But a factual error, particularly a factual error upon which the entire story hinges? That's misinformation. It deceives the reader, and it tars the linking site via guilt by association.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:50:35 PMPlus, several of the posters took a couple of "little shots" at me, which is ok, but they were also defending the honor of D3. I thought had the right to at least share my thoughts.
You speak of our defensiveness and our "going ballistic" whenever D3 competition is impugned by outsiders. I think that you misunderstand us. We are all aware, every one of us, that D3 has an image problem. I spoke about it yesterday, and it's worth adding that the NCAA has done precious little to combat that image problem.
But what chaps the hide of D3 fans isn't the denigrating comments about the level of competition in this division. It's the denigrating comments that are made
in ignorance. If someone who has never seen a D3 game attends one and says, "Sorry, but this just doesn't entertain me. This game wasn't played well enough to make it worth my while to see any more D3 games" -- and I have sat in the stands by people who've said that -- then that's fine. At least they speak from experience. It's the people who don't know anything about the level, whose entire knowledge base of D3 is based upon rumor, sports-culture folklore, and blind inference, that bother me and cause me to speak out.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:11:43 PMI also am very familiar with GC, they are a D1 member and have a very successful program.
The NAIA is only divided into divisions in two sports, men's basketball and women's basketball. In every sport besides those two, the NAIA is a unitary body.
Quote from: radiodavel on July 29, 2011, 02:50:35 PMIf you want to censor me from this site, that is not a problem with me.
I think that you're greatly underestimating Pat's forbearance. He's put up with much, much worse than this. Plus, the issues over which you're locking horns with him are substantive, relevant, and above-board. This is a useful conversation being conducted by grown-ups, and that's exactly the kind of thing that this site was set up to accommodate.
I don't have any issues with you, Dave. As I've said before, I like what you do on your site. You're a good clearinghouse for small-college sports information. But Pat is a different kind of gatekeeper than you are, a more discriminating one. All things considered, given the mission of the d3sports.com sites, I think that he has to be.
Gregory Sager makes an accurate and important observation: "This is a useful conversation being conducted by grown-ups, and that's exactly the kind of thing that this site was set up to accommodate."
That is why I read this site.
It's not like there are not lots of different ways to practice journalism...watched Fox News lately? Fortunately, nobody gets to tell me which efforts to pay attention to.
Looks like Mr. Radiodavel wasn't interested in useful, grown-up conversations. Buh-bye.
Quote from: scottiedoug on July 30, 2011, 11:49:54 AM
Gregory Sager makes an accurate and important observation: "This is a useful conversation being conducted by grown-ups, and that's exactly the kind of thing that this site was set up to accommodate."
That is why I read this site.
It's not like there are not lots of different ways to practice journalism...watched Fox News lately? Fortunately, nobody gets to tell me which efforts to pay attention to.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Fox owned by the King of Yellow Journalism, Rupert Murdoch?
He's the opposite of the NY Times, you know, "All the news that's fit to print?"
It also sounds like Dave is still trying to impress upon us that he's a bastion of Journalistic integrity! ::)