Wow, I know the announcers keep saying that using Division III replacement officials in the NFL is ruining the sport. The final call in tonight's MNF game between Green Bay and Seattle could not have been officiated by DIII officials. I have never seen one make such a bad call!! A pure travesty.
-Ski
To me it was a rather subjective call because I believe both got a hold of the ball at the same time but the defender had more possession of the ball. Without the rules I would have said interception but the rules made it more subjective. Did he have possession before the receiver had partial possession? Did the receiver have possession at all? Tough call and that showed by one ref signaling TD while the other calling touchback. What was terrible on that play wasn't the final decision but the fact that they didn't call offensive pass interference. When you two handed shove a guy out of the way before you jump for the ball that should be penalized even if it's a final play hail mary.
I don't mind the refs messing the occasional subjective call (the regular refs probably wouldn't make as many errors but they'd still make errors) or taking a bit of extra time in trying to figure stuff out... it's all the basic stuff they're screwing up that's terrible. How do you call a penalty that should be 5 yards and mark off 12? (Den-Atl) Or forget which side of the field the line of scrimmage was on to mark off a penalty? (Det-Ten) Or call illegal blocking on a team that is kicking off, which they eventually picked up after talking it over? (SF-Min) It's those kinds of things that any ref at any level should be able to handle which is harming the game.
Pat posted this on Facebook this morning:
'You're probably hearing a lot of people blaming "Division III refs" for what's going on in the NFL these days, as if only Division III refs were calling these games. Truth is Monday night's game featured two Division II officials, a Big 12 official, two Texas HS officials and a California HS/junior college officials.'
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 25, 2012, 03:04:53 AM
I don't mind the refs messing the occasional subjective call (the regular refs probably wouldn't make as many errors but they'd still make errors) or taking a bit of extra time in trying to figure stuff out... it's all the basic stuff they're screwing up that's terrible. How do you call a penalty that should be 5 yards and mark off 12? (Den-Atl) Or forget which side of the field the line of scrimmage was on to mark off a penalty? (Det-Ten) Or call illegal blocking on a team that is kicking off, which they eventually picked up after talking it over? (SF-Min) It's those kinds of things that any ref at any level should be able to handle which is harming the game.
+1. This is the stuff that's more puzzling, because it has nothing to do with "speed of the game" or differences in the rulebook between NFL and college.
I just set out on a research project to find out where the NFL's replacement officials came from because I'm getting as annoyed as the rest of you that "D-III Official" has turned into a synonym for incompetence. As it turns out, most of these dudes are next to anonymous. I thought this would be a quick project, but it's going to take time.
Mainly what I'm after is to get a percentage of the NFL's current officials that came from Division III. I don't think anybody has done the arithmetic on that just yet and it probably needs to be done. If the WWL (and everybody else really) is going to smear these officials, they should at least be force fed some demographics about the NFL's replacement officials.
I know this is slightly off the topic but is anyone else not feeling to sorry for the Packers since if any of the defenders batted the ball away then there is no question who caught it?
You intercept the ball, you should get the ball. Not a Packers fan but also not a fan of major home-crowd induced screwjobs.
The head guy last night, Wayne Elliott, is executive director of the Austin Football Officials Association. Until a little while ago his email address AND cell phone number were out there for everyone to see on the AFOA site. ;D
Quote from: crufootball on September 25, 2012, 11:08:27 AM
I know this is slightly off the topic but is anyone else not feeling to sorry for the Packers since if any of the defenders batted the ball away then there is no question who caught it?
Yes, but that doesn't let the game officials off the hook for not seeing who caught the ball.
In baseball, sometimes you'll see somebody try to stretch a single into a double or run through a stop sign at third base and make it home (or wherever) safely. Probably the wrong play to run through a stop sign, but you can't call a guy out on principle. Same thing here. The GB DB probably made the wrong play, but he did make the play.
It's hard to fight instinct on that play and catch the ball. Plus in a scrum like that a deflection could have legally landed in Seahawk hands.
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: crufootball on September 25, 2012, 11:08:27 AM
I know this is slightly off the topic but is anyone else not feeling to sorry for the Packers since if any of the defenders batted the ball away then there is no question who caught it?
Yes, but that doesn't let the game officials off the hook for not seeing who caught the ball.
In baseball, sometimes you'll see somebody try to stretch a single into a double or run through a stop sign at third base and make it home (or wherever) safely. Probably the wrong play to run through a stop sign, but you can't call a guy out on principle. Same thing here. The GB DB probably made the wrong play, but he did make the play.
Definitely doesn't let them off the hook, even if you think it was an interception the officials did themselves no favors with them saying two different calls when they were standing right next to each other.
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 10:49:25 AM
I just set out on a research project to find out where the NFL's replacement officials came from because I'm getting as annoyed as the rest of you that "D-III Official" has turned into a synonym for incompetence. As it turns out, most of these dudes are next to anonymous. I thought this would be a quick project, but it's going to take time.
Agreed. I had the same thought about a week ago and it was just really difficult. I did piece together last night's crew, with the exception of one guy, but even that took time.
Quote from: smedindy on September 25, 2012, 11:23:29 AM
It's hard to fight instinct on that play and catch the ball. Plus in a scrum like that a deflection could have legally landed in Seahawk hands.
As it did in the Titans/Lions game, if I remember correctly.
This matter does not involve a decision "to nuke or not to nuke". It is only a game of football.
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
In researching the officials last night right after the game, I actually came across a Referees Association Website in Texas, this site listed the name of the Official that "went under the replay hood" on the field. It also listed his cell phone number.... I obviously didn't post or publish it anywhere, but I have a feeling that this was a busy cell phone today. The site also listed that he had collegiate and high school experience.
You cannot put a high school official on the field with professional athletes and expect them to succeed. I do believe that these guys are doing the best they can, in impossible circumstances. It is up to the league to fix this.
I also believe the NCAA Div. 3 office should contact the major networks and tell them to get their story straight...... (if it is not true) on where these refs are coming from. It does not look good for the Division as a whole.
What a mess.
Well as a Vikings fan, I had the 'real' officials not call an obvious illegal hit on my QB a few years ago that cost me a trip to the Super Bowl and the 'replacement' officials steal a game from the Packers. So my vote is to keep the 'replacement' officials. :P
Quote from: bashbrother on September 25, 2012, 04:22:44 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
In researching the officials last night right after the game, I actually came across a Referees Association Website in Texas, this site listed the name of the Official that "went under the replay hood" on the field. It also listed his cell phone number.... I obviously didn't post or publish it anywhere, but I have a feeling that this was a busy cell phone today. The site also listed that he had collegiate and high school experience.
You cannot put a high school official on the field with professional athletes and expect them to succeed. I do believe that these guys are doing the best they can, in impossible circumstances. It is up to the league to fix this.
I also believe the NCAA Div. 3 office should contact the major networks and tell them to get their story straight...... (if it is not true) on where these refs are coming from. It does not look good for the Division as a whole.
What a mess.
I'm less concerned with whether or not those guys are making bad calls...they're over their skis and it's been obvious from the jump, even in the preseason. What bugs me is the talking heads on ESPN, and NBCSN, and NFLN, and anywhere else that they talk about football labelling all of the replacement officials as "D3 officials". There's some seriously negative connotation that is now associated with that phrase which I wouldn't have a problem with
if they actually were D3 officials. Just wish the dialogue was a little more fair that way.
The lead official rapidly had his cell and email removed from that web site. :)
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 10:49:25 AM
I just set out on a research project to find out where the NFL's replacement officials came from because I'm getting as annoyed as the rest of you that "D-III Official" has turned into a synonym for incompetence. As it turns out, most of these dudes are next to anonymous. I thought this would be a quick project, but it's going to take time.
Mainly what I'm after is to get a percentage of the NFL's current officials that came from Division III. I don't think anybody has done the arithmetic on that just yet and it probably needs to be done. If the WWL (and everybody else really) is going to smear these officials, they should at least be force fed some demographics about the NFL's replacement officials.
Agree. I called the ECAC, which handles officiating for many East Coast conferences in several divisions, last week to try to determine how many D-III guys if any were out there. I didn't get a response.
I felt the same thing, that at least someone should find out who these guys actually are. The first few times I heard "D-III" as pejorative I let it slide, but I'm glad we're speaking out.
As an aside, I did a story on D3 officials a few years back for the Stagg Bowl game program though, and those guys put in a lot of work for not a lot of money. I'll try to find the story ... fairly certain it did not go online, but it might be saved on a drive somewhere.
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
Validates the research I posted on Twitter last night.
I found out today that the NFL listed these guys as having D3 experience on their handout to ESPN. I believe it's fairly possible the NFL has no idea what experience these guys have.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 25, 2012, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
Validates the research I posted on Twitter last night.
I found out today that the NFL listed these guys as having D3 experience on their handout to ESPN. I believe it's fairly possible the NFL has no idea what experience these guys have.
The NFL, clueless about their replacement refs? Why does that not come as a surprise. I don't understand why they're trying to prove that calling pro games is so easy that even a caveman can do it.
It's being tweeted that the NFL and the officials reached a deal "In principal." and could be back on the field as early as Sunday (but not this Thursday's game).
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 26, 2012, 12:39:52 PM
It's being tweeted that the NFL and the officials reached a deal "In principal." and could be back on the field as early as Sunday (but not this Thursday's game).
One point I heard somewhere that I thought was valid was that even when we get the normal refs back, it most likely will take them a week or two to get back into the swing of things as they didn't have the pre-season to work out things themselves. Obviously that is better than never having them but I thought it was smart to point out it won't be like flipping a switch.
Quote from: crufootball on September 26, 2012, 01:08:02 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 26, 2012, 12:39:52 PM
It's being tweeted that the NFL and the officials reached a deal "In principal." and could be back on the field as early as Sunday (but not this Thursday's game).
One point I heard somewhere that I thought was valid was that even when we get the normal refs back, it most likely will take them a week or two to get back into the swing of things as they didn't have the pre-season to work out things themselves. Obviously that is better than never having them but I thought it was smart to point out it won't be like flipping a switch.
I think the thing that will be immediately different is how coaches and players behave when the veteran NFL officials return. I'm sure you've heard the substitute teacher analogy that's been thrown around and it is very apt I think. The coaches and players have had little to no respect for the replacement officials and those officials have been pretty blatantly intimidated by the players, coaches, and probably just the sheer magnitude of the stage that they've been on. Bad calls aside, the thing that has been the most souring for me has been just how out of control the games have been.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg&hash=fa18e83b44409e54d628055471d453eb8a1e3066) (http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg)
The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 26, 2012, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: crufootball on September 26, 2012, 01:08:02 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 26, 2012, 12:39:52 PM
It's being tweeted that the NFL and the officials reached a deal "In principal." and could be back on the field as early as Sunday (but not this Thursday's game).
One point I heard somewhere that I thought was valid was that even when we get the normal refs back, it most likely will take them a week or two to get back into the swing of things as they didn't have the pre-season to work out things themselves. Obviously that is better than never having them but I thought it was smart to point out it won't be like flipping a switch.
I think the thing that will be immediately different is how coaches and players behave when the veteran NFL officials return. I'm sure you've heard the substitute teacher analogy that's been thrown around and it is very apt I think. The coaches and players have had little to no respect for the replacement officials and those officials have been pretty blatantly intimidated by the players, coaches, and probably just the sheer magnitude of the stage that they've been on. Bad calls aside, the thing that has been the most souring for me has been just how out of control the games have been.
I have heard the analogy and believe it to be a true statement. Only thing about that I would say is that some of the players are saying the integrity of the game is at stake due to the the replace refs. Well isn't it hard to talk about integrity when you clearly have pushed the lines and disrespected the replacement officials?
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 25, 2012, 11:42:01 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 25, 2012, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 25, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
Here's what an SI writer found about the background of the crew (http://nfl.si.com/2012/09/25/meet-replacement-refs-behind-packers-seahawks-controversy/) that worked the MNF game. It doesn't look like any of the guys on that crew are "D3 officials". The more I dig into in this, the more I'm finding that an awful lot of the guys on these replacement assignments are primarily high school officials. The blanket "D3 official" statement is actually giving the replacements more professional credit than a lot of them deserve.
Validates the research I posted on Twitter last night.
I found out today that the NFL listed these guys as having D3 experience on their handout to ESPN. I believe it's fairly possible the NFL has no idea what experience these guys have.
The NFL, clueless about their replacement refs? Why does that not come as a surprise. I don't understand why they're trying to prove that calling pro games is so easy that even a caveman can do it.
Is GEICO a sponsor for the NFL games?
Quote from: crufootball on September 26, 2012, 03:09:47 PM
I have heard the analogy and believe it to be a true statement. Only thing about that I would say is that some of the players are saying the integrity of the game is at stake due to the the replace refs. Well isn't it hard to talk about integrity when you clearly have pushed the lines and disrespected the replacement officials?
That's actually a point I made this morning on a talk show. The players and coaches are talking about how it is unsafe and they are allowing teams to break the rules, while at the same time I heard the announcers all saying last weekend that teams were being coached up in how to take advantage of the refs. The talk show hosts jumped all over me about how "players and coaches are playing for their jobs and need to do anything to win" so it wasn't their fault they were taking advantage.
Personally I just find that a really sad excuse. Integrity of the game? Then the players aught to get out of the refs faces and the coaches shouldn't be fined 50K (Belichek) they should be sideline banned for a week or two for attempted intimidation.
As for the NFL, I have no doubt they could pay what the refs want. But really, who gets a pension anymore? It's just ridiculous that they are holding out on 150K+ part time jobs for a pension. Part timers don't even get 401Ks or healthcare most of the time, these refs are asking for an awful lot.
I know we say the owners are billionaires and they can afford it, but it's real easy to spend someone else's money..
Overall, just a sad situation that hopefully is coming to an end.
Quote from: AO on September 26, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg&hash=fa18e83b44409e54d628055471d453eb8a1e3066) (http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg)
The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Unfortunately, what this photo does NOT show is that Tate didn't get both hands on the ball until AFTER the GB receiver had brought it in. In that case, it is NOT simultaneous possession.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 26, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: AO on September 26, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg&hash=fa18e83b44409e54d628055471d453eb8a1e3066) (http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg)
The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Unfortunately, what this photo does NOT show is that Tate didn't get both hands on the ball until AFTER the GB receiver had brought it in. In that case, it is NOT simultaneous possession.
You don't need both hands on the ball, he had his left hand on the ball throughout the process of the catch.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 26, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: AO on September 26, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg&hash=fa18e83b44409e54d628055471d453eb8a1e3066) (http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg)
The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Unfortunately, what this photo does NOT show is that Tate didn't get both hands on the ball until AFTER the GB receiver had brought it in. In that case, it is NOT simultaneous possession.
He didn't get both hands on the ball until after the DB 'brought it in' but he did get both hands on the ball before the DB had both feet on the ground.
Quote from: jknezek on September 26, 2012, 04:39:31 PM
As for the NFL, I have no doubt they could pay what the refs want. But really, who gets a pension anymore? It's just ridiculous that they are holding out on 150K+ part time jobs for a pension. Part timers don't even get 401Ks or healthcare most of the time, these refs are asking for an awful lot.
They refs are being reasonable. And they're really not 'part time' during the season. They study and plan six days a week. That term is a ruse. They are the best of their profession as we all see now. They're not holding out, either - it's a lockout.
So anyone that has a pension should just give it up because no one gets one anymore? Just give that benefit away that they earned just because?
It's all of the stuff that happened in many games I saw - a disorganized higgdly piggdly mess. The GB call at the end was totally bogus - it was not simultaneous possession. Missed in that noise are all of the other ludicrous calls in that game. How can you respect someone when they don't know the rules they're supposed to enforce and can't even do simple things like spot personal fouls and keep track of downs?
They ought to know the rules they are enforcing. Ought to.
No Smedindy. Pensions are a thing of the past. They are unsustainable mistakes left over from a previous generation. 401Ks correct those mistakes and most of us have shifted over. As for NFL refs being full-time, that is difficult to define. Hochuli says in some articles that he puts in 30 hours a week in season, but that includes his "keeping fit" and travel time plus his duties as the head of the NFLRA, which includes a lot that other refs conceivably don't do. While there might be some allowance for keeping fit, no job I ever worked allowed you to count travel time. Most jobs I've had that I've travelled have had rules about when you can take off and land so you don't cut short a "work day".
I just don't buy that these guys are working 2 full-time jobs during the season. It doesn't make sense, much like the concept of a pension.
Again, I don't doubt the NFL COULD pay them, and I don't doubt that they are the best in the business and would be the best for the game, I just struggle with an acceptable level of pay and laying all the blame on the owners being cheap. You are right that they are locked out and not on strike, but I still think what they are demanding is more than what is reasonable. Just my opinion and you are, of course, entitled to your own.
I've always had travel time count for me since to get the best fare you need to take off and land at weird times. Your travel day is your work day. Traveling on a weekend wasn't something my employers wanted us to do because of family time and the fact we were always on the road. Unless it was unavoidable, we try not to schedule meetings with clients on Mondays and use that as a travel day. Or at the worst, not have a meeting until Monday afternoon.
They are not demanding anything unreasonable. Unreasonable would be to ask for $1MM guaranteed in a Swiss Bank account for each ref. Why would they willingly walk away from a bargained benefit? Just because something isn't in 'vogue' doesn't mean you willingly give it away. I wouldn't.
At any rate, let's hope the deal is done.
At least it looks like this nightmare is over.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/several-reports-indicate-deal-between-nfl-officials-imminent-023915580--nfl.html (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/several-reports-indicate-deal-between-nfl-officials-imminent-023915580--nfl.html)
Thank goodness.... an now back to our regularly officiated National Football League.
The NFL's statement says that tomorrow nights game will be officiated by NFL refs... wow, that is quick. Shows that after Monday night, they are not playing around any longer.
A friend posted the following on Facebook. It seems accurate to me.
"Sweet, we can all now come to the realization that we hate ALL referees, not just replacement refs. I smell a movie about all this coming, starring Will Ferrell and Steve Carrell."
Quote from: Gray Fox on September 27, 2012, 11:13:14 AM
A friend posted the following on Facebook. It seems accurate to me.
"Sweet, we can all now come to the realization that we hate ALL referees, not just replacement refs. I smell a movie about all this coming, starring Will Ferrell and Steve Carrell."
True... I think just the fact that we all knew that they were replacement refs, created an environment of extreme focus from the media, coaches, players, fans etc. At the end of the day even the NFL refs will make mistakes every game, nature and speed of the game today.
Have a good business friend that is Banker by day, an SEC Official on Saturdays... He says "he could throw a flag on almost every play, has to pick and choose which infractions that affect the play, health of players... etc. Not an easy job.
Quote from: Hawks88 on September 26, 2012, 06:32:19 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 26, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: AO on September 26, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
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The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Unfortunately, what this photo does NOT show is that Tate didn't get both hands on the ball until AFTER the GB receiver had brought it in. In that case, it is NOT simultaneous possession.
He didn't get both hands on the ball until after the DB 'brought it in' but he did get both hands on the ball before the DB had both feet on the ground.
And we are forgetting that Tate released the hold on the ball momentarily with his right hand on the way down. No Simultanious posession.
-Ski
Quote from: Teamski on September 27, 2012, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on September 26, 2012, 06:32:19 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 26, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: AO on September 26, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg&hash=fa18e83b44409e54d628055471d453eb8a1e3066) (http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/603334_4149718974612_169125289_n.jpg)
The call and review was correct. Simultaneous Possession.
Unfortunately, what this photo does NOT show is that Tate didn't get both hands on the ball until AFTER the GB receiver had brought it in. In that case, it is NOT simultaneous possession.
He didn't get both hands on the ball until after the DB 'brought it in' but he did get both hands on the ball before the DB had both feet on the ground.
And we are forgetting that Tate released the hold on the ball momentarily with his right hand on the way down. No Simultanious posession.
-Ski
He could have never touched the ball with his right hand at any point and still be given the touchdown. His left hand was on the ball throughout the catch. If his left hand wasn't on the ball, it would have been an easy overturn in the review.
We have a 'truther' in our midst...
http://deadspin.com/5946917/seahawks-truthers-continue-to-insist-golden-tate-caught-that-touchdown
Where's the ball in AO's photo - the TRUTHER photo?? Yeesh.
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
We have a 'truther' in our midst...
http://deadspin.com/5946917/seahawks-truthers-continue-to-insist-golden-tate-caught-that-touchdown
Where's the ball in AO's photo - the TRUTHER photo?? Yeesh.
Who is the one with the conspiracy, the people who agree with the official review and the NFL? Try out this video if you're more curious about Tate's left hand and the ball. (http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Highlight-Seahawks-Hail-Mary/0be1977c-775e-451b-9802-6ab3f50f8914)
There is no rule about "he had more of the ball" or "he brought it to his chest". What is your conspiracy about why the replay official didn't overturn the call, and the NFL affirmed their decision the next day?
AO, give it up, your points are silly.
It takes more than a hand on the ball to have possession. And there are multiple pictures where Tate's hand has ahold of Jennings, and no ball. Have to maintain possession, and only Jennings did.
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
The rules are not murky. It was ESPN and the majority of people to this day whose understanding of the rules is murky. It was a bang-bang play on the field and the replay didn't show Jennings having sole control prior to Tate's control with his left hand.
Your conspiracy theory isn't even consistent. If the NFL and the referrees was so worried about their appearance, they would have overturned the play at the time of the replay. That would have made the majority of people who don't understand the rules happy and Goodell wouldn't have gotten 70,000 voicemails.
Quote from: AO on September 27, 2012, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
The rules are not murky. It was ESPN and the majority of people to this day whose understanding of the rules is murky. It was a bang-bang play on the field and the replay didn't show Jennings having sole control prior to Tate's control with his left hand.
Your conspiracy theory isn't even consistent. If the NFL and the referrees was so worried about their appearance, they would have overturned the play at the time of the replay. That would have made the majority of people who don't understand the rules happy and Goodell wouldn't have gotten 70,000 voicemails.
I read that the replacement officials made 65% of their calls in favor of the home team. That's the majority I believe officials were more likely to cater to.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2012, 02:16:53 PM
Quote from: AO on September 27, 2012, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
The rules are not murky. It was ESPN and the majority of people to this day whose understanding of the rules is murky. It was a bang-bang play on the field and the replay didn't show Jennings having sole control prior to Tate's control with his left hand.
Your conspiracy theory isn't even consistent. If the NFL and the referrees was so worried about their appearance, they would have overturned the play at the time of the replay. That would have made the majority of people who don't understand the rules happy and Goodell wouldn't have gotten 70,000 voicemails.
I read that the replacement officials made 65% of their calls in favor of the home team. That's the majority I believe officials were more likely to cater to.
I'd be interested to know if that stat is a) true and b) how it compares to last season with the regular refs. Putting that stat in a vacuum is insufficient to draw any conclusions about the replacement refs.
I think Bill Barnwell has done some analysis on this on Grantland, also some work was done on Football Outsiders.
Quote from: AO on September 27, 2012, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
The rules are not murky. It was ESPN and the majority of people to this day whose understanding of the rules is murky. It was a bang-bang play on the field and the replay didn't show Jennings having sole control prior to Tate's control with his left hand.
Your conspiracy theory isn't even consistent. If the NFL and the referrees was so worried about their appearance, they would have overturned the play at the time of the replay. That would have made the majority of people who don't understand the rules happy and Goodell wouldn't have gotten 70,000 voicemails.
What? Two refs made different calls on the field. No conference was called to sort it out. And if I recall, a call of 'simultaneous possession' CAN'T be reviewed. The refs didn't control players and others from the site of the catch after it was made, either. It was horrible.
The NFL HAD to back up the replacement refs Tuesday - otherwise they had absolutely zero leverage instead of 1% leverage.
Of course, that's the tree - the forest is the blatant PI, the egregious calls on Green Bay before that play in the last two drives - the horrible job the refs did all over the place last Sunday, etc. etc.
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/38256/what-the-return-of-the-nfl-refs-really-means
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 02:51:15 PM
Quote from: AO on September 27, 2012, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 01:50:58 PM
The NFL was doing everything it could to spin it their way. If the NFL reversed the decision it would make them look 1,000,000 times worse. The replay rules are murky in this situation and the actual ref on the field is the one who makes the final call in these situations (or did before this three-ring circus started) and like HE was going to overturn THAT call in Seattle.
The rules are not murky. It was ESPN and the majority of people to this day whose understanding of the rules is murky. It was a bang-bang play on the field and the replay didn't show Jennings having sole control prior to Tate's control with his left hand.
Your conspiracy theory isn't even consistent. If the NFL and the referrees was so worried about their appearance, they would have overturned the play at the time of the replay. That would have made the majority of people who don't understand the rules happy and Goodell wouldn't have gotten 70,000 voicemails.
What? Two refs made different calls on the field. No conference was called to sort it out. And if I recall, a call of 'simultaneous possession' CAN'T be reviewed. The refs didn't control players and others from the site of the catch after it was made, either. It was horrible.
The NFL HAD to back up the replacement refs Tuesday - otherwise they had absolutely zero leverage instead of 1% leverage.
Of course, that's the tree - the forest is the blatant PI, the egregious calls on Green Bay before that play in the last two drives - the horrible job the refs did all over the place last Sunday, etc. etc.
You recall incorrectly, Simultaneous possession is reviewable in the end-zone. The review didn't affirm the call on the field, it just didn't overturn it due to Golden Tate clearly showing some control over the ball with his left hand.
The NFL officiating department did not back up the replacement refs on the whole play. They acknowledged the missed pass interference that should have ended the game in the Packer's favor. They didn't say "but, that never gets called in a hail mary situation".
The home team bias doesn't make much sense if you watched Green Bay's go-ahead TD drive. The weak pass interference around the 50 on 3rd down, and the review at the 2 yard line that gave Rodgers the first down instead of having to kick the FG.
Of course you're missing the other bungled calls on the last two Seattle drives, especially the phantom roughing-the-passer call. It was a disgrace on all fronts.
There is this article, too, where there IS confusion on what can and can't be reviewed until the NFL made it's Maoist after-the-fact statement. The NFL.com writer (house organ) said it wasn't. And before this season, it was the ref's call entirely.
http://deadspin.com/5946219/last-nights-missed-call-could-have-easily-been-overturned
It is good.
Agreed, Bashbro.
I've seen some bad spots watching the NCAC but never saw them mark off a 27-yard personal foul!
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
I think Bill Barnwell has done some analysis on this on Grantland, also some work was done on Football Outsiders.
There is nothing in that article about penalties called on home versus away teams.
From an ESPN article located here:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8402489/nfl-replacement-officials-affecting-vegas-bets
"Penalties were skewed in favor of home teams during the first two weeks this year, with visitors getting 55.1 percent of 419 penalties. Last year began in a similar fashion -- visitors took 54.8 percent of 407 total penalties through the first two games -- before evening out over the rest of the season. Penalties were relatively even between home and road teams for all of 2010 and 2011, and it's anybody's guess how this year's penalties will split."
At least through the first two games, the replacement refs favored the home team no more than the usual NFL refs did the year before.
Quote from: jknezek on September 27, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 27, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
I think Bill Barnwell has done some analysis on this on Grantland, also some work was done on Football Outsiders.
There is nothing in that article about penalties called on home versus away teams.
But plenty of grist for the mill about the types of calls the replacements bungled beyond repair.
Quote from: jknezek on September 27, 2012, 03:41:25 PM
From an ESPN article located here:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8402489/nfl-replacement-officials-affecting-vegas-bets
"Penalties were skewed in favor of home teams during the first two weeks this year, with visitors getting 55.1 percent of 419 penalties. Last year began in a similar fashion -- visitors took 54.8 percent of 407 total penalties through the first two games -- before evening out over the rest of the season. Penalties were relatively even between home and road teams for all of 2010 and 2011, and it's anybody's guess how this year's penalties will split."
At least through the first two games, the replacement refs favored the home team no more than the usual NFL refs did the year before.
Thanks. I apologize for not knowing the context either.
In week three it was 51.3% towards the visitors. But also mangled challenge / TO issues, horrible spotting on penalties AND no penalty on one egregious hit.
You know it was a bad call when Vegas and other online betting agencies issuing refunds.
How often does that happen?
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 28, 2012, 08:20:54 AM
You know it was a bad call when Vegas and other online betting agencies issuing refunds.
How often does that happen?
Whenever they want someone to continue betting. I'm sure the NFL will make sure the gamblers are happy, that must be their top priority.
Quote from: AO on September 28, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 28, 2012, 08:20:54 AM
You know it was a bad call when Vegas and other online betting agencies issuing refunds.
How often does that happen?
Whenever they want someone to continue betting. I'm sure the NFL will make sure the gamblers are happy, that must be their top priority.
Well the betting agencies refunded the money...not the NFL.