D3boards.com

Perhaps this has been covered before, and let me acknowledge at the outset that my bias is that the NCAC should get more than 2 NCAA bids per year on average.

IMHO, the top conferences are NESCAC and UAA, probably historically in that order, although I think the UAA arguably has been stronger the past couple of years.  There are some other conferences which may have 1 and occasionally 2 teams as good or better than the best in NESCAC and UAA (Loras, Dominican, Trinity, Wheaton, Calvin, etc), but they do not have near the depth (or please correct me where I am wrong).  The UAA had 5 bids last year and NESCAC 4, I believe.

So what conferences are #'s 3-5?  Again, IMHO, the top contenders are Centennial, NCAC, NJAC, Liberty, and maybe the MIAC, USAC, and Landmark.  Do the CCIW, IIAC and/or MIAA have sufficient depth to trump any of those?  Also not well-versed on the ODAC, SCIAC, and NWC.  NEWMAC has some good teams but is small, and the same for SAA.  Comments appreciated.

And my question is whether conferences #'s 3 thru 5 or 6 should typical garner 3 bids if the top 2 are getting 4-5.

I think that the Centennial as a whole has been down for the past two years.  The top team(s) are still extremely competitive nationally - Dickinson two years ago, Swarthmore and Haverford last year.  And Swarthmore should be outstanding this year with almost every major piece returning after a Sweet 16 run last year. 

Pool C has only 19 bids, so if the NESCAC and UAA each get four teams in, we're down to 13 Pool C spots...year in and year out to say that the Centennial, NCAC, NJAC, Liberty, etc. each deserve three bids, that takes an additional 6-8 Pool C spots right there which, in some years, may make sense, and in other years, simply doesn't.  Having followed Centennial soccer pretty extensively of late, that Conference provides a perfect case study.  Last year, two teams deserved to make the tournament and both did.  In 2011, MAYBE Johns Hopkins was a bit of a snub at 7-1-1 in Conference but was only 10-5-3 overall.  And in 2010, Swarthmore and Muhlenberg were clearly deserving and with a weaker Pool C field Johns Hopkins got in despite an 8-8-2 record overall.  So in the last three years alone, you have a good case where a league deserves one bid, two bids, and gets a little lucky with three. 

Ultimately, it is much more about region and performance in region and the balance between conference and non-conference schedule strength...if you do well in a strong conference, it is reflected in the NCAA data at the end of the year.  And to my memory, at least by the D3soccer.com math in the past few years, there haven't been that many "snubs" in any given year...

At one time 99-2004, the ODAC was deserving of 2 bids annually, but since then, It's my observation that it's been a one bid conference.  Roanoke has stayed a top 5-10 regional team since then and the way Lynchburg has come up the ranks, we can see that possibly return.

Just my 2 cents

Let me put this another way as a NCAC fan.....what conferences other than NESCAC and UAA have 6-7 teams stronger than Ohio Wesleyan, Depauw, Denison, Kenyon, Allegheny, Hiram, Oberlin? 

Hiram didn't get a bid last year with a record of 15-3-1.  Allegheny had a similar record. 

And in the example above, even with a weak pool, JHU getting in with a record of 8-8-2 in 2010 must have had something to do with perceived strength of conference.  I'm guessing that there were a bunch of teams with substantially better records that didn't get in that year.

I think it was actually a lot of name reputation with Hopkins that year...

Massey ratings, which seem to be a pretty accurate metric, put NCAC 7th last year out of Division III Conferences. 

http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2012&sub=11620&c=1

Third in 2011, 6th in 2010, albeit its a metric of top to bottom strength as opposed to the relative power of the elite teams. 

For what it is worth, Massey had DePauw 23, OWU 26, Allegheny 35, and Hiram 45.
Compare Centennial: Swarthmore 7, Dickinson 24, Haverford 28, F&M 40, Muhlenberg 44
                UAA:          Brandeis 16,   CMU 18, Rochester 29, Chicago 36, Wash U 41, Emory 43
                NESCAC:    Amherst 2, Williams 5, Wesleyan 21, Tufts 30, Bowdoin 47.

So at least by this one metric, in a down year for the Centennial, there were five teams better than Hiram.  In the UAA, there were six teams better than Hiram, and in the NESCAC, there were three teams better than DePauw and four better than Allegheny. 

And when it comes to at-large bids, seven are gone by the time you get to DePauw and 15 by the time you get to Allegheny (so Allegheny is right on the bubble as a last four team in potentially by this metric.) 

Just some thoughts. 

Thanks for that link!  Interesting to see UAA over NESCAC for several years running.  After those 2 some significant variation.  The NJAC shows well.  Liberty looks volatile.  Centennial and NCAC both have moved around a lot.  Unless I'm missing something the rating meshes the SAA and SCAC together, so that seems a little skewed. 

Obviously this is D3, but it would be interesting to see a little more outside region play in the early season, like 4 teams from Centennial or NCAC going against 4 NESCACs.

On the 2012 ratings, Depauw and OWU's ratings seem low.  Those were top 15 teams IMHO.  I can see that Hiram and Allegheny would be debatable, but not getting a bid at 15-3-1 is a little tough to swallow.  With your point on name recognition, I doubt Denison or Kenyon would be left out with that same record. 

Do you think there is any East Coast bias in general when evaluating these leagues?

Looking forward to the season.

Being someone who has been following the IIAC these last 5-10 years I would say that back in the 07-09 years 2 bids were deserved from that conference with maybe a 3rd as well. Those teams being Loras, Wartburg, and Central. But as of late I feel most the teams, besides Loras, have dropped off and make the conference a 1 big only conference.

The MIAC always have good, strong defensive teams that beat up on each other throughout the season and are pretty dead by the time playoffs come around.

My two cents.

From top to bottom, the NESCAC would probably be the strongest.......

The first post endorsed NESCAC and UAA as the top 2 leagues.  Between those 2, I would argue that the bottom of the UAA is tougher than the bottom of the NESCAC. 

Side note:  Brandeis doesn't get half of the attention of the top 4-5 NESCACs, and Brandeis arguably will be the best team in New England this year.  Most of a very good, elite 8 team returning and what appears to be a very strong (and large) incoming frosh class.

The original question was...if NESCAC and UAA get 4-5 bids a year, are there any other conferences that typically deserve 3?

Current standing of NCAC teams

In national polls, OWU is #2 in NSCAA and D3soccer with Depauw #20 in NSCAA and #11 in D3soccer, and Denison receiving votes in D3soccer and off to very strong start.

Regionally (Great Lakes), OWU is #1, Depauw is #3, Denison is at #5, Allegheny is at #9, followed by Kenyon at #10.  Oberlin has dropped out after appearing previously.  I expect OWU and Depauw to maintain high rankings, Kenyon to rise, Allegheny to drop, and Denison being the wild card.

We all know the NCAC won't get 4 bids (and may not get 3), but OWU, Depauw, Denison and Kenyon all appear to be NCAA tourney worthy squads.  Not sure about Allegheny and Oberlin.  Bottom line is that this is a strong year for the NCAC.

OWU remains undefeated with away win at Ohio Northern 2-1 in typical OWU fashion trailing 1-0 and scoring twice in final 13 minutes.

Denison wins in last 30 seconds of 1st OT vs a previously unbeaten Capital team to stay unbeaten themselves at 6-0-1.

NCAC update -- OWU likely #1 next week.  DePauw solidly in the top 10.  Denison cracks top 25 and still unbeaten.  Kenyon lurking in the background with big away contest at DePauw looming this weekend.

In addition to the teams noted above, Oberlin is now 7-1-1 and has an early season win at Hope on its resume, and Allegheny keeps winning as well.

Watch out for Case Western Reserve!

With a victory over John Carroll yesterday, they remain undefeated at 4-0-3.

The upcoming matches against Hiram and Oberlin will be interesting.  Of course, the UAA conference schedule will always be tough.

If we beat Oberlin, it might help to make up for our recent embarrassing football loss to the Yeomen; we had beaten them 29 straight times prior to that!

Dominican University loses their first NACC game in their history, 1-0 to Benedictine U! They are now  85-1-3 in NACC play. Could this be the year another team makes the NCAA tournament from the NACC? Maybe Aurora, MSOE, etc.?

One of the first seasons the Northern Athletics Conference was in existence Aurora got in (Spartans are the only NACC team other than Dominican to get in)  Ironically, that same season, the Spartans and Stars played each other in the first round-Dominican won easily.

Must have been quite the email blast Rutgers-Camden sent our for votes in this week's poll :)  They were running at about 10% all day and then suddenly jumped to almost 60%.

Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2013, 08:31:34 PM
Must have been quite the email blast Rutgers-Camden sent our for votes in this week's poll :)  They were running at about 10% all day and then suddenly jumped to almost 60%.

Yep, I enjoyed that as well. That having been said, I voted for them. I have yet to see them play live this season, but they are building on a very fast, athletic and organized team from a year ago. OWU, the logical #1 probably plays a more attractive brand of football, but at this level, speed and athleticism often trumps skill.

OWU makes sense since they were #2 and haven't lost.  However, OWU barely got by a usually fairly weak Wooster team, and Rutgers-C had a very tough time with a pretty good Kean squad.  On merit I'd probably go with my new friends at Loras, or Amherst.

I am sure Messiah is happy to be rid of the tag.
Also not sure if OWU wants it, but I'm sure its theirs tomm.

Sirius, OWU seemed to do OK 2 years ago :)

OWU does play a very attractive.  Very creative with their runs and combination passing.  Very similar to what I thought I was observing watching Loras vs. Wheaton.

The NCAC is tough this year.  Allegheny knocked off Denison and DePauw and Kenyon played to 0-0 tie at DePauw.  Oberlin dropped points at Wittenberg which could really hurt their NCAC playoff chances.

I agree with whoever said it's OWU's if they want it.  Having watched the team several times, it seems like they turn it on when they need to.  Not a great quality to be showing halfway through the season, but the 2011 team didn't really play their best stuff until the Final Four so who knows.  It will be interesting to see what happens with some of the tougher conference games, especially DePauw who has had OWU's number for the last few years.

As for the OWU vs RC argument, based on quality of opposition thus far it seems like OWU is a bit more deserving.  And I know the dangers of score comparisons, but the only common opponent was Kean, and OWU's showing (6-0) was a little more convincing than RC's (2-1).

And now the entire student body at York votes simultaneously.  Rutgers-C showed their hand too early.

At least this week I'm going with D3soccer's poll over the NSCAA.  Regarding the latter, how is Wheaton #8 with 3 losses?  I like Wheaton a lot and know they will probably be there in the end, but I'm not sure even Messiah would get a #8 ranking with 3 losses.  Hope at #24 also seems generous.  Wash U with 2 losses and a tie also seems too high.  And not sure Brandeis should actually jump 11 spots after losing to Tufts (although D3 soccer has them even higher).

Even though three sepearte conferences are represented, its good to see NY represent with 4 teams in the top 25 (Brockport/Stevens/SLU/Rochester).

Brockport participated in the first 3 National Finals (Winning the First)
Stevens have been a consistently strong Nationally, Ditto St. Lawrence, and Rochester is  reaping the rewards of building a strong program the right way.

If the season ended today, I would have to think that both UW-Oshkosh and UW-Whitewater would get in to the NCAA Tournament. This doesn't happen often, but I would think it would be hard to justify not including one of the two. Luckily, there's a lot of season left for things to be figured out, but it's good to see the WIAC with two nationally recognized teams once again.

It is hard to say whether or not a team like UWW (8-1) would get into the tournament.  UWW has only one quality win thus far (game vs. Wartburg) otherwise they have played a fairly easy schedule.  UWW has big test vs. North Park, UWO, and Loras this season.  They will need positive results in two of these three games in my opinion to earn an at-large bid.

Rutgers-Camden @ TCNJ looks like it will have live stats, along with a live video feed.   TCNJ has tied Stevens and beaten Montclair at home this season, so this should be a decent game:

http://www.sidearmstats.com/tcnj/msoc/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbsW8LZoZ-o

I would still put Messiah above OWU and Camden, regardless of their loss vs York. 

As far as the top conferences go... I'd agree with the Bennett Rankings:

1) NESCAC
2) UAA
3) NJAC

Quote from: NCAC New England on September 30, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
Sirius, OWU seemed to do OK 2 years ago :)

True dat. I have had the pleasure of seeing OWU play on a couple of occasions and I'm a fan. I would much rather watch OWU than any of the Berserk-Ball offerings that are popular in the NESCAC and NJAC.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 02, 2013, 03:42:23 PM
I would still put Messiah above OWU and Camden, regardless of their loss vs York.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-yXT0eHQ-UPk%2FT3758z2ymEI%2FAAAAAAAABe0%2FPV3pBlbvH6k%2Fs1600%2Fstar-wars-esb2.jpg&hash=b75d7f5ad413a7746e9c748e24470029095358eb)

I have searched my feelings, and I know it to be true.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.slashgear.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2Fluke-skywalker-nooooo1.jpeg&hash=79d1efdf3e98c8c7d87310e6061194caaec59fed)

Big game coming up in the NCAC, Ohio Wesleyan vs. Depauw on Saturday.

Any predictions?

This will be an extremely competitive game and brutally hard-fought.  DePauw is very physical, big, and athletic.  OWU can certainly play a chippy game but not their preference.  You can bet this is a game OWU does not want to lose, as DePauw is the only school to really have their number over the past couple of years.  They will likely meet again once or twice, so this one isn't necessarily the most important but it's the most important right now.  Jay Martin will have his team primed.  OWU wins 3-1 and then Kenyon knocks off OWU a week and a half later at OWU.

OWU 2, DePauw 1 (OT)

Competing dynamics: DePauw hasn't really played anybody, but I'd venture to guess they're in OWU's head a little bit.  Having already tied once in conference play, pressure is on DePauw to get a result. 

Generally speaking, you can't really go head-to-head in an open game with OWU unless you have the horses to do it (Messiah), so I'd still expect DePauw to sit in and try to hit on the counter.  What would really make it interesting if is DePauw scores first, because OWU has had a habit all season of allowing the first goal.  Could they recover again?

OWUSoccer, with all due respect, and understanding that you no doubt have a high standard, Centre and Kenyon are both pretty good teams that DePauw has played.  In fact, if memory serves, Centre knocked OWU out of the NCAA tourney last year.  That said, I'd be shocked if DePauw gets another result against OWU this weekend.

Point taken, but I'd also note that those are the only two teams DePauw has played that are even over .500 aside from Knox (who I admittedly know nothing about).  And yes, Centre did knock OWU out last year, but I'd argue their results this year, where OWU has already equalled last year's win total and Centre is 5-3-2, speak a little louder.

I don't mean that as a knock on DePauw - they are a good team, and you can only beat the people placed in front of you.  However, I think you started this thread to discuss potential NCAA bids, and this is where that SOS comes into play.  If Centre doesn't start winning games, DePauw currently has zero quality wins, at least with regards to the criteria used by the NCAA regional committee.  This puts a lot of pressure on them in conference to beat OWU, or to win the conference tournament, just to get into the NCAA tournament.

For example, if it comes down to Carnegie Mellon with 5 losses/draws, or DePauw with only 3 (tie with Kenyon and let's say 2 Ls elsewhere), Carnegie will get that spot.  I'm with you, and think the NCAC is strong this year and should get a couple of teams, but DePauw's schedule makes their margin for error very small.

Understood, and I admit I don't know a lot about how SOS plays into the bids, but I would assume DePauw as the #5 or #6 team in the country is fairly safe if they lose to OWU, lose another game or tie someone, and fail to win the NCAC tournament.  I guess they also could be in trouble if some team other than OWU (or them) won the NCAC tourney.  I think the bigger question, which relates to why I started the thread, is whether the NCAC is worthy of 3 bids.  I believe it is, but of course as you note Centre struggling doesn't help DePauw or Kenyon nor does Calvin picking up losses which downgrades Kenyon's win there.  Oberlin had a nice early win over Hope.  Oberlin in theory is very much in the mix, although dropping points to Witt could be a killer.  In short, I expect a team out of Denison, Kenyon, Allegheny and Oberlin to emerge as a legit 3rd NCAC bid.

Capital knocks off Ohio Northern 2-0.  Great Lakes Region wide open after OWU and DePauw.

Brad McCarty going for his 100th win in his FIFTH SEASON vs none other than "rival" E-town... 

Well, I got OWU-DePauw correct.  3-1 OWU with all goals scored in the last 12-13 minutes.  Remarkable how many times OWU scores a backbreaking goal somwhere between the 73rd and 80th minutes.  Uncanny actually, and very demoralizing to opponents who have played them tooth and nail to lose late.  They beat Denison last year literally at the buzzer.

Despite a good win earlier over Denison, Allegheny appears to be fading, dropping points yesterday to Wabash and with some tough tilts ahead.  Denison vs Kenyon this week is big and then somewhat depending on that result Kenyon vs OWU a week later.  Oberlin is sporting a very gaudy record, but the killer part of their schedule is on the horizon with the top 5 teams (other than themselves) remaining.

Spot on, and from what I've seen the late goals are a function of just wearing teams down.  Case in point, OWU brought their 3 top scorers (combined 20 goals, 12 assists thus far) off the bench yesterday. 

Here's a link to the highlights, the best of which is easily OWU's second goal (by the right back no less).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrlOz0JjnD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrlOz0JjnD0)

USMMA is not playing due to the government shutdown. If this continues how does this affect the Landmark , they have already played 2 conference games? Do you just wipe those results any pretend USMMA did not have a season??

Is Christan Shirk OK?  Or gone?  He does great work and is a joy to read, but I noticed no "Flybys" or other articles since Week 3.

Quote from: NCAC New England on October 14, 2013, 09:22:45 PM
Is Christan Shirk OK?  Or gone?  He does great work and is a joy to read, but I noticed no "Flybys" or other articles since Week 3.

Thank you for the compliment.  I am fine, just have not had the time to contribute as I would like last season and this one.  I have a 2-1/2 year old daughter and a 14 month old son, and they have changed my life, my priorities, and my free time for hobbies such as writing for D3soccer.com.  I miss being able to do the research and write the columns, but family needs to come first and between them and a full-time job, there's little time left.  And this season has also overlapped with us making an offer on and buying a house; we settled a week ago and have been moving in the past week.  I am hopeful that next year I will be able to contribute more again.  We'll see.  Again, thanks for the kind words.

P.S. If anyone out there has a serious interest in writing for the site, let me (chris.shirk@d3sports.com) or Jim Matson (jim.matson@d3sports.com) know.  We'd love to have more original content on the site.

Christan, thanks for checking in.  Congrats on all of the above.  Nothing better than being the parent of a couple of toddlers.  Life is good.  I'm sure D3 soccer is ranking very low on your priority list.

That said, would be nice if you could chime in at tournament bid time!  Your analysis last year (and I'm sure in prior years) was outstanding.

Big weekend for conference and bid positioning.

In the NESCAC, after Amherst which should be safe, there appear to be 6-7 teams jockeying for playoff seeding and for what I would assume will be 3 other NCAA bids.  When factoring in schedules teams #2-#8 are essentially tied coming down the stretch.

Big weekend in the UAA with all teams playing twice starting with full slate today. 

In the NCAC, Oberlin gets a great opportunity to prove they are a serious contender with an away match at DePauw.  The Oberlin schedule is brutal for the stretch run, and a result in Greencastle would go a long way for their confidence and chances.  Allegheny gets the next crack at #1 OWU on Saturday before Kenyon travels to OWU on Tuesday.  Allegheny is likely going to need an upset win somewhere along the way if the Gators hope to snag a NCAC tourney spot.  Kenyon's win over Denison this week puts them in a good spot. If the Lords take care of Wabash tomorrow then they can take their best shot at OWU without too much pressure, although a result would certainly boost their national standing.  Denison, despite a very good record thus far, already has losses to Allegheny and Kenyon, and is going to need some big wins down the stretch (probably including against DePauw or OWU) if the Big Red hope to edge out Allegheny and Oberlin for a playoff berth.

I'm curious to see how the Centennial plays out.  A #10 national ranking for Dickinson seems high given a loss to Ursinus and a draw since then that was probably unexpected.  Curious to see who and how many will get bids in this conference with F&M, Swat, and I assume Haverford very much in the mix.

Watch out for Wheaton (Ill).  The Thunder look to be making a big push.  I see a Wheaton-Loras re-match down the road.

Does anyone know when the first set of NCAA rankings will be release? Its got to be soon, I would imagine.

this wednesday

Huge away win by Oberlin over DePauw, and must be taken seriously.  Oberlin now something like 12-1-2.  Must be best start to a season in more than 30 years.  Congrats to the Yeoman, but they still face Denison away, OWU, Allegheny, and Kenyon away.

DePauw now may need to buckle down to ensure a conference tourney slot and stay on track for a NCAA bid (although they are a threat to win the conference tourney outright as they have 2 years in a row on the OWU home field).  Their season could come down to a dicey game away at Denison as Denison most likely will badly need a win as well. 

OWU throttles Allegheny 6-0 and it could have been even worse.  Next test is surging Kenyon coming to town on Tuesday, and then OWU is away at Oberlin next weekend.

Almost nailed it -- OWU 1 Kenyon 1 Final

Denison brings Oberlin back to earth 3-0.

In the NCAC...

Oberlin still controls its destiny and will finish 1st if can run the table against OWU, Allegheny and away at Kenyon.  That seems unlikely, although if the somehow pull off what would seem like a massive upset at home against OWU then suddenly the task looks doable.  They also could lose all 3 and fail to make the NCAC tourney.  They most likely have to win the Allegheny game (and Allegheny is basically reduced to a spoiler role now) and then even a draw in either of the other 2 games would provide some security.

Kenyon has a trap game away at Hiram.  If they can win that one Kenyon is pretty much a lock for the #2 spot and could even finish #1 if they get some help with OWU from Oberlin or Denison.

Denison closes with OWU and DePauw, although both are at home.  Assuming an away win at Wabash tomorrow, they may need to win one of those last 2 games to make the NCAC tourney.  The last game with DePauw could be a great one as both teams may need it.

DePauw has Allegheny away tomorrow, and assuming they get that one DePauw's season may come down to the final game away at Denison, unless Oberlin loses all 3 of their final games, as Oberlin has the head-to-head edge on DePauw.

There is a scenario where Oberlin, Denison, and DePauw could all finish 5-3-1 and require going to secondary tiebreakers but that scenario I believe would be dependent on Denison beating OWU and then DePauw losing to Allegheny but beating Denison.

BTW, OWU hasn't lost a regular season conference in like forever.  The tie with Kenyon was actually the first tie they've had in conference (regular season) in a long time.

The battle for at large spots appears tighter than ever.

The NESCAC is too jumbled to figure out.  Amherst looks to be the only safe team with Williams almost safe although a quarterfinal conference tourney loss might put them in jeopardy.  The question is whether they get 3 or 4 bids.  Given what is going on elsewhere 4 seems like a stretch.  Gordon continues to roll with Roger Williams and Western New England in the picture.  And will the NEWMAC get more than 1 team?  Brandeis has a high regional ranking but is near the bottom of the UAA with two UAA games to go.  I would assume they have to win both of those to be viable.

The Centennial is wild.  Dickinson in my view has been overranked all season and took a beating yesterday from F&M.  Then there are Swat and Haverford with Haverford besting Swat yesterday.  The Centennial has gotten 3 before.

In the NCAC, credit to Oberlin for bouncing back from Denison loss to tie top-ranked OWU.  That's two ties in a row for OWU who no doubt will lose their #1 ranking this week.  Oberlin has huge trap game with Allegheny Wednesday, and although Allegheny has been eliminated from a conference playoff spot they might embrace role of spoiler especially since Oberlin knocked Allegheny out of the playoffs last year.  Allegheny got a bad break yesterday with a PK call against DePauw.  Kenyon took care of business against Hiram and is in a good spot where they could still finish #1 if Denison gets a result against OWU (unlikely but Denison has to have at least a draw to stay alive) and can do no worse than 3rd if they lose their last game at home to Oberlin.  Oberlin can finish as high as 2nd and no lower than 4th.  The last game with Kenyon could determine which team has a home game in the NCAC playoffs and they could play again in their next game.  DePauw likely can't get higher than 3rd but will only finish outside of the playoffs if Denison gets a result against OWU and DePauw loses to Denison at Denison in the final game.  Bottom line is NCAC has 5 teams this year with impressive overall records.  Denison really shot itself in the foot losing to Wabash yesterday.  I'm biased, but I think the NCAC deserves at least 3 bids this year.

Will the NCAC situation be impacted by the OAC race?  Ohio Northern is in the driver's seat with a win over John Carroll last night but wasn't even ranked regionally last week.  John Carroll now has just the 1 conference loss and a very impressive overall record.  They have a big game with regionally ranked Heidelberg coming up.  So the OAC is probably going to get 2 bids?

The UAA is a real wild card.  Emory, Rochester and Carnegie Mellon look to be in good positions.  And then there still are Brandeis, Chicago and Wash U.  5 bids out of the UAA again would be too many from my viewpoint, but even getting 4 seems questionable. 

I don't know the other conferences well enough to comment, although the Liberty has some very good teams in a dogfight as well.

The only guarantee is that with only 19 pool C bids at least a few teams are going to be very, very disappointed.

Can someone explain how the at large bids work?  I get that the regional rankings are critical, but are there a certain number of slots per region that are then filled based on the regional rankings?  Or does the committee get down to comparing let's say a John Carroll or Oberlin with a Bowdoin or Roger Williams?  In other words, does it ultimately come down to comparing teams from different regions?  And if a clear choice like an Amherst or OWU doesn't get their conference's automatic bid because of losing in their tournaments, does that have the effect of knocking out another team in their own region or in ANY region?

The committees rank the teams in each region (that have not already received Pool A/B bids), then they compare each region's top team with the other regions' top team and select the best by the criteria the NCAA defines.   Say the top team in the Midwest region is the one selected; then the #2 team is promoted to the top of the Midwest list and they do the comparisons all over again.   That process is repeated until all Pool C bids have been awarded.

It DOES ultimately get down to comparing teams from other regions per the criteria.  Teams with high winning percentages, strength of schedule, and wins over other regionally ranked teams will have the advantage over teams lacking in any of those areas.    In your example it would be all about how OWU or Amherst compares to the other team when the teams are regionally ranked prior to the selections being made.

If it works the same as in football then each Regional Ranking committee comes up with a final ranking list before they sit in committee. Each committee then puts the first team on their list without an AQ up for discussion against the other regional first teams. It goes in rounds as one team is selected from the first group. Then a replacement from the selected region is put up, the second team from the list not receiving an AQ, and the discussion goes around again. There are no set spots for regions, but you can only put one team up at a time and that team cannot be "taken down" unless they come off the board holding a "C" ticket. So if you have a bunch of conferences where the overwhelming favorite fails to win the AQ, then it gets very messy for power conferences with depth.

How exactly the teams are compared is a bit beyond me, but at least in football it is done with an emphasis on SOS and results (not necessarily wins) against RR opponents. With so many more games and cross region play, perhaps soccer is weighted slightly differently.

** Ron beat me to the punch...

Thanks to both of you.  So, if I am following correctly, if let's say Oberlin ends up ranked #4 in Great Lakes and the committee never gets past #3 on the Great Lakes list then Oberlin will not even get a hearing/discussion.  Is that right?  You can't jump down a spot or two within region to pull a team in for discussion even if some or most think that team is better or at least worthy of discussion about whether they are better?

That's correct. You can't be discussed if you don't make it to the table. And you can only make it to the table if your own Regional Ranking committee puts you there. So if number 3 doesn't come off the board, and you are number 4, then you don't get a chance to be discussed.

"most think that team is better or at least worthy of discussion about whether they are better?"

I'm not sure what you are going for here. What most? The Regional Committee ranks the teams so the "most" of that committee wouldn't disagree with itself. They've already discussed it and the "most" have put the teams in a 3/4 setup prior to the committe call. The other Regional Committee's aren't going to be real concerned with whether your 4 is better than your 3, they are going to be concerned with getting their current candidate off the board or selecting the best candidate from those on the board.

If the "most" is fans, well, there are relatively few of those that are going to be more educated regarding DIII soccer than the regional committees. Finally, you probably won't know the final Regional Rankings from each region, or who was on/off the board. We can guess at it, and occassionally we get an interview or two through the D3 sites (primarily in football and basketball) that give some insight into the committees, but mostly it's a bit of a black box.

Thanks.  Not sure what I was after either!  I guess just that whether you are #3 or #4 or #4 or #5 can be critical and obviously there can be very thin lines between those teams.  But as you suggest, obviously the committees know this.  Do you know if they weight last 5 games heavier than a middle 5 game stretch, or like a big win early vs a big win late?

Update on the NACC:

Benedictine-after being picked to finish 7th in the conference, clinched the top seed for the NACC tournament--Dominican, Aurora, MSOE and Edgewood are also in.  CUW and WLC are fighting for the last spot. WLC gets Lakeland and CUW gets Edgewood. If the Falcons and Warriors finish tied. WLC gets in, having beaten CUW head to head.--

(casual fan cheering)

Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2013, 10:54:00 AM
Thanks.  Not sure what I was after either!  I guess just that whether you are #3 or #4 or #4 or #5 can be critical and obviously there can be very thin lines between those teams.  But as you suggest, obviously the committees know this.  Do you know if they weight last 5 games heavier than a middle 5 game stretch, or like a big win early vs a big win late?

I don't have a clue. I have a feeling each Regional Ranking committee goes by its own standards. They meet several times and they come to a consensus by the end. I'm sure not all of the committee members agree with every spot, but they do the best they can. And yes, that 3/4/5 does get critical, but it has to be done to make sense of the process. The NCAA works on a winnowing process. You winnow down teams first with play on the field, meaning the best way to make the tourney is win your AQ.

After that, you are at the mercy of a committee, which is unfortunate. However, even in this process they try and find the best solution by taking the people that should know the teams best, a regionally focused group, and ordering them. After that, they try and take the best from each region and compare them one at at time. This limits the discussion in a reasonable fashion and directs the debate to only a few teams at a time. The process allows for some indepth discussion about each of the "C" picks and I can't think of a better way to do it. Sometimes it is disappointing and we don't always agree with the outcomes, but it is a very reasonable process to try and come up with the best possible tournament.

Really it's the same in all sports. If you really want to go to the playoffs, prove it on the field by winning your AQ. After that,  if you don't make it and feel like you should, it is really just a matter of splitting hairs. Take care of your business and don't leave it to others to decide your fate.

So, in theory, 7-8 teams could be selected out of New England before a single team comes off the board from any other region.  Don't you imagine it works a little more like "your region just got one, or the last two, and so now we get one"?

Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2013, 01:39:13 PM
So, in theory, 7-8 teams could be selected out of New England before a single team comes off the board from any other region.  Don't you imagine it works a little more like "your region just got one, or the last two, and so now we get one"?

No. I don't think so. I think it would be more likely the people not from the East gather around and say, do we really think your 5 is better than all our 1s? The answer, most likely, is no. So that swings the pendulum. I don't think it's as much a smoky backroom as you want to believe. It's simply people who know their regions well and probably believe their regions have strong teams. They pick those teams and then use the reasons they picked those teams to argue for inclusion. At some point, that argument sways enough of the other regions to accept that pick. Especially since arguments are limited. For example, if the East argues their 1 pick is best because of SOS or total wins, at some point those same arguments will be used against them when a different region has the advantage.

I don't think I suggested it's like a smoky back room.  Just stands to reason based on watching how all committees work that  when you divide up by regions that regions are going to expect a certain amount of equity, the same way conferences would fight to have their conferences as well represented as possible.  Do you think it's not noticed when the NESCAC or UAA get up to their 4th or even 5th bid?  Maybe what you are suggesting is that since each region is equally represented in terms of votes that the safeguard is built-in.

Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2013, 02:07:45 PM
I don't think I suggested it's like a smoky back room.  Just stands to reason based on watching how all committees work that  when you divide up by regions that regions are going to expect a certain amount of equity, the same way conferences would fight to have their conferences as well represented as possible.  Do you think it's not noticed when the NESCAC or UAA get up to their 4th or even 5th bid?  Maybe what you are suggesting is that since each region is equally represented in terms of votes that the safeguard is built-in.

Actually I think it's simply the argument structure. There are only so many ways to make a case and eventually that gets used against you. The power conferences are pretty well known in most sports and tend to get the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it is deserved and sometimes it isn't. But yes, I wouldn't totally discount eventually someone looking around and thinking to themselves "how did we get to 5 in the East and still haven't pulled the 1 from Region X." This would lead to a slight bias for X in the next round, whether on purpose or not. But I don't think it would kick in at 2 or even 3, maybe even deeper.

I guess I just don't worry too much about it. I think they are doing their best to find the best teams as they see it. There isn't really an incentive not to. The prestige of having that extra team in the tourney, for DIII, isn't going to make or break a program or have one region strutting around.

It actually sounds like a very good process.  Wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.  Just was interested in how it actually works and assumed others might have wondered as well.  For example, I had assumed that the NESCAC got a certain amount of bids because of its rating as a conference.  Glad to learn that it doesn't work by conference at all and that no region is limited up front in terms of bids awarded.

Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2013, 02:27:23 PM
It actually sounds like a very good process.  Wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.  Just was interested in how it actually works and assumed others might have wondered as well.  For example, I had assumed that the NESCAC got a certain amount of bids because of its rating as a conference.  Glad to learn that it doesn't work by conference at all and that no region is limited up front in terms of bids awarded.

Nope. You've got the right idea. I remember someone explaining it to me a few years ago. I think we all get the tutorial one way or another...

NCAC, if you've got the time, Christian Shirk did a great writeup on Regional Rankings and the whole selection process just a week or so ago here on the site.  Have a look at

http://d3soccer.com/columns/around-the-nation/2013/ncaa-regional-rankings-with-new-criteria

It covers some of the points you and jknezek have been discussing and some others, too.  :)   Some of the criteria were modified a bit this season, most significantly that the NCAA has gotten rid of the ridiculous and arbitrary "in-region" distinction as a primary selection criterion.   Now ALL games against D3 competition count as primary, as opposed to a side being penalized for playing another halfway across the country. 

Just read the posts today/yesterday regarding regional rankings and how they are the forerunner basically for the NCAA berths specifically for the "at large" selections.  Noticed in the New England Regional rankings that there are 4 teams in the 11 ranked out of the CCC conference, 4 from NESCAC and 2 from NEWMAC and Brandeis of the UAA.  Does the NESCAC do itself a disservice in how these rankings are calculated by only playing 14 regular season games?  Seems there would be more NESCAC teams possibly ranked if they played 4 more games and fattened up there winning % (assuming 4 more wins)with more non-conference games?  The NESCAC #'s #2 through #8 are splitting hairs and all beating up on each other this year in conference.  I can't imagine the NESCAC not getting at least 3 bids, and deserving a 4th.  Trouble could be not all of the NESCAC contenders other than Amherst did well with their out of conference games....most still dominated, but there were some unusual losses in some non-conference games.   

Maybe, but historically the NESCAC has gotten more bids than any other conference in the country, right?  The CCC having 4 at the moment seems like an aberration and may well change significantly over the next 2 weeks.  That said, while the presumption is that NESCAC is the top conference, do we really know how the top 4-5 NESCACs would do head-to-head with the top 4-5 in the UAA, NJAC, Centennial, NCAC?  Would really like to see the NESCACs have one weekend where they play 4-5 teams from like the Centennial or another similar conference.  As it stands, we get the occasional NESCAC game with a Brandeis or Babson or RPI or Wheaton or MIT, but there is a fair amount of beating up the Maine-Farmingtons out there.

In addition to the current article that Ron Boerger already suggested for NCAC to read to get a better understanding of the whole at-large process, I can also suggest the following two articles from last season that deal with the at-large process (these articles will be updated for 2013 and posted again shortly):

AQ's, Pool B and Pool C? What does it all mean?
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/around-the-nation/2012/AQs-PoolB-PoolC-explained

At-large berth analysis and predictions
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/around-the-nation/2012/at-large-analysis-and-predictions


As to the conferences that get the most berths, the UAA has averaged the most berths with the NESCAC getting the second most on average.  The Centennial has years when they get three teams.  Off the top of my head there are no other conferences that regularly get or have a realistic shot of getting three teams in, unless I am completely forgetting someone.  You have to go back a little for the NJAC to regularly have three tournament-worthy teams.  The SUNYAC also had a period when they would usually have at least three teams in the mix.  Beyond that, most conferences only have one team beyond their conference champion (AQ) who is realistically in the running for an at-large berth in a given year.  An unexpected conference champion can sometimes push that to two which is often the reason for a conference to surprisingly get three teams in despite not being the strongest/deepest conference.


I get the feeling that the committee does reach a point in which they will try to avoid going too deep in any given conference.  I think if it's a close call between two (or more schools), a team from a conference that has already received two at-large selections has less chance than a team from a conference that has not yet received an at-large berth. 

Great stuff.

Just looked at latest regional rankings.  Unbelievable that Dickinson is STILL so high.  Why???  And Brandeis as well.  And F&M jumps up 6-7 spots just because they blew out the aforementioned Dickinson squad?  F&M is only 4-3-1 in their conference with losses to Ursinus and Muhlenberg and now they are the #2 team in the Mid-Atlantic?  And meanwhile Haverford and Swat aren't ranked at all?  Elsewhere Ohio Northern goes from not ranked at all (which clearly was a mistake) all the way to 4th in Great Lakes.  Carnegie Mellon and DePauw both seem overrated as well.

NESCAC is a mess.  Trinity goes from being nationally ranked just a couple of weeks ago (or so it seems) to not even making NESCAC playoffs (an 8 team playoff).  Williams loses at home to Hamilton in a shocker.  Amherst rolls.  Wesleyan continues to be confusing as their season seems pretty mediocre and yet they keep getting results in-conference getting by Conn College in OT today.

Is it too early to predict a Final Four? 

Loras
OWU
Amherst
DePauw

Naw on DePauw.    Fourth in the NCAC??

DePauw spot can be up for grabs but Messiah will be upset.  You heard it here first!

Messiah has ZERO chance of getting upset in the MAC...  ZERO I tell ya!

Lastguy, I think the poster meant the Final Four, but of course likely an upset if Messiah doesn't get that far as well :)

Exciting day of soccer today.  Fate of a lot of good teams on the line.

From here on out, all games are playoff games.

DePauw is in serious danger of missing out on the NCAA tournament altogether.  After coming back from a 2-0 deficit to tie Denison, DePauw sits at 14-2-2 but has zero wins over ranked opponents (record of 0-2-2).  They get the best possible opportunity to lock up a spot this week with a rematch at OWU, but if they lose that game, I think there's a good chance they're on the outside looking in. 

Comparing resumes for teams 2-4 in the NCAC:

Team A: 14-2-2 (5-2-2 NCAC), 0-2-2 versus ranked opponents, best win home against Knox or Centre
Team B: 13-3-3 (6-0-3 NCAC), 2-0-3 versus ranked opponents, best win neutral against Calvin
Team C: 13-2-4 (5-1-3 NCAC), 1-1-2 versus ranked opponents, best wins at Team A and at Hope (who will probably be ranked next week).

I seriously don't know who you pick there. A = DePauw, B = Kenyon, C = Oberlin.  Now, let's assume OWU wins the NCAC tournament so DePauw ends at 14-3-2, 0-3-1 versus ranked opponents (Denison no longer ranked), best win home against Knox or Centre. 

Scenario 1: Kenyon beats Oberlin. Kenyon would be 14-4-3, 2-1-3 versus ranked, best win neutral against Calvin or home against Oberlin.  Oberlin would be 13-3-4, 2-1-2 versus ranked opponents (Hope ranked, Denison not), best wins at DePauw and at Hope.

Scenario 2: Oberlin beats Kenyon.  Oberlin is 14-3-4, 3-1-2 versus ranked opponents, best wins at DePauw, at Kenyon, at Hope.  Kenyon 13-4-3, 1-1-3 versus ranked, best win neutral against Calvin.

I think in either case the winner of Kenyon-Oberlin gets the nod over DePauw.  Now, Depauw could take out OWU and make this a moot point, but interesting nonetheless.

Good analysis OWUSoccer.

I think the winner of Kenyon-Oberlin is in.  I think the question, assuming OWU wins, is whether they get 3 teams, in which case who would get the nod between the loser of Kenyon vs Oberlin and DePauw.  If DePauw beats OWU I still think they get 3, and of course the winner of Kenyon vs Oberlin will like their chances better in a home game vs DePauw in that scenario. 

In terms of the 3 team argument remember that NESCAC and UAA may get less than usual.  IMHO the NCAC has 4 deserving teams.

Great Lakes deserves 4-5 at large bids -- 3 from NCAC, 1 from OAC, and CMU if CMU needs it.

In North, Carleton and St Olaf should both get in with Luther on the fence.

The South Atlantic is stacked.  Probably all 7 of the regionally ranked teams here should get in, and that's not even counting Randolph that has been nationally ranked most of the year and is still something like 14-1-1 and Christopher Newport might be on the fence.  Didn't calculate how many at large bids we might be looking at here once the AQs are taken off the board.

The East seems pretty clear cut and will have to see how the AQs flush out (e.g. Rochester needing an at large or not).

The Mid-Atlantic is confusing to me.  Don't know all the regionally ranked teams that well, and Haverford and Swat aren't even ranked.

The Central seems weak, and noteworthy that Dominican and Hope aren't ranked (yet).

New England has a ton of conferences so will have to see how that shakes out, but I'd be surprised if there are more than 5-6 at large bids here (2 NESCACs, MIT or Wheaton, Brandeis, and 1 or 2 more).

Don't know the West but doesn't appear strong.

The North will have Wartburg in before St Olaf. Luther has to get an AQ or take the Final match into OT to have a chance.

I was presuming Wartburg as in already.

I agree with kickin... that would be 3 at large bids for the north and four with luther. The north has 4 AQ and one pool b bid (oshkosh) With three at-large bids that would be 8 teams from the north? Is that possible? It looked like the last two years only 6 came from the north although i've heard some of the other regions are a bit weaker this year...?

Wednesday will really lay out the landscape for everything with many (most) conference semifinals taking place and the last official regional rankings coming out.  Should be a crazy week.

Well, someone probably just lost a spot.  Gordon gets knocked off by RWU and surely will scoop up one of the at large bids.

Well there goes another bubble bursted...  Lycoming advances past Messiah in PKs...

Add Montclair to the Pool C.   

I would expect 3 NJAC teams to get in, not sure about TCNJ after tonight's result.  Camden could have put in 6 or 7, but TCNJ gk made some great saves.   

Wow.  Some of these results are going to keep out at least several teams that have had great seasons.  A shame really.  Doesn't really hurt these top teams that lose and is great for teams that qualify who otherwise would not have, but seems really unfair for the almost top teams who will miss out.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 06, 2013, 10:01:32 PM
Wow.  Some of these results are going to keep out at least several teams that have had great seasons.  A shame really.  Doesn't really hurt these top teams that lose and is great for teams that qualify who otherwise would not have, but seems really unfair for the almost top teams who will miss out.

Always the way this time of year, tho Messiah losing is a shocker the likes of which we rarely see.

Southwestern (#5 South) pulled off a 1-0 upset of Trinity TX (#1 South) earlier this year despite a similar 38-4 shot deficit.   They'll probably face each other again in the SCAC championship on Sunday (to be held at Southwestern) and should they pull off another upset that would take away another Pool C bid.  I doubt SW would get a bid if they lose this weekend. 

Well atleast it's much better now than the days where there were only FOUR Pool C bids!

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2013, 11:50:51 AM

Well atleast it's much better now than the days where there were only FOUR Pool C bids!

I thought that was Pool B that only got 4?

Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 07, 2013, 02:24:23 PM

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2013, 11:50:51 AM

Well atleast it's much better now than the days where there were only FOUR Pool C bids!

I thought that was Pool B that only got 4?

I believe it was around 2005/2006 when it expanded from 44 teams to 57.     

So Carleton gets by St. Olaf.  In another less advertised game, Catholic loses to Juniata, so Catholic now at risk after strong season?

Christan, great job as always!

Interesting to me that you (and I assume committee) view ties as blemishes.  Do you think they give weight to quality away ties and/or less weight to home ties or close home wins?  Does Oberlin's win over DePauw count more because it was away?

Also curious about your thoughts re: Randolph, John Carroll, etc....basically any teams with gaudy records and especially ones that have been nationally ranked but not regionally ranked. 

Also was surprised you have Brandeis and Dickinson so high.  Obviously I'm missing something.  Given their slip-ups (middling conference showing for Brandeis and bad losses for Dickinson) how can there be such a clear-cut gap between them and a team like DePauw?

Seems like SOS involves a bit of luck.  Both DePauw and Kenyon scheduled Centre who would have been expected to have a much better year but didn't pan out that way.

I think the predictions were done based on guesses on committee selection, not who is most deserving.  Brandeis was already #2 in New England and won their only game this week, so can't imagine them dropping.  As the top-ranked Pool C team in New England that probably guarantees them a spot.

Dickinson has an extremely high strength-of-schedule and five wins over regionally-ranked teams.  Those are perhaps the top two criteria when we really get into Pool C.  When you compare them to DePauw, that's where the separation shows up.  While some of it may be scheduling luck, if memory serves Centre is usually regionally unranked or ranked very low, so even if they'd had a great year I don't know who they would have displaced in the Great Lakes rankings.

John Carroll doesn't have any good wins and one of the lowest SOS in Pool C plus some bad results so they're pretty firmly out IMO.  Randolph is a bit confusing - again, no good wins, but winning 17 games is no easy feat.  They're also coming from a conference that has made some tournament noise recently.

While we're at it, predictions?

18 seem clear to me, while the last one is tough.  Messiah, Montclair State, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Dickinson, Salisbury, Wartburg, Williams, Kenyon, North Park, Carthage, Gustavus Adolphus, Gordon, Oberlin, Roger Williams, Catholic, Rutgers-Newark, and Luther.  Lucky No. 19? Oneonta State

While I don't think they necessarily should, I'm guessing Oneonta State gets the final bid.  If, as has been suggested previously, the committee really only looks at 8 teams at a time (the top Pool C team in each region) when making its selection, that would mean they would have to pass over Oneonta State 19 straight times.  I just have a hard time believing the East Region representative will let that happen, but who knows.

The same could be said for Texas-Dallas and Whitworth (3/4 in West), but the committee usually places a ton of emphasis on strength-of-schedule and they are tied for the lowest in Pool C.  The UAA is already getting 3 teams in so I don't think Emory goes.  MIT will be 8th in New England, and no other region seems to be going past 6th so I think they're out.  Same for St. Olaf, who will be 7th in the North, has a weak ranked-teams record (1-3) and would be the third bid for the MIAC.  I just don't see happening. 

The hard one for me is DePauw - I may be biased, but the NCAC has a pretty legitimate claim as the best conference in the country this year.  And, unlike the other 7 teams in the "Pick 'Em" group, they have no bad blemishes.  So while they may be 0-3-2 against ranked teams, they also haven't had any slip-ups (draws or losses) against unranked teams.  Still, doubtful the committee takes 4 NCAC teams, or 4 at-large teams from the Great Lakes region.  So that just lets in Oneonta.

No Pool C bids for the Central Region?  That seems a bit bizarre, no?

Quote from: tjcummingsfan on November 11, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
No Pool C bids for the Central Region?  That seems a bit bizarre, no?

Very bizarre!  A very "east centric" tournament bracket.  Very sad not to see North Park or Carthage in.  Both very good teams. 

Carthage, even though I predicted the committee would select them, isn't a big surprise to be left out given the 7 losses, and personally I agree with it.  I just figured the Central region was still good for two at-large selections.  North Park as the No. 2 team in the Central region is a surprise omission. 

And who is the surprise inclusion?  Misericordia from the Mid-Atlantic. After Messiah and then the Centennial pair of F&M and Dickinson, I thought the Mid-Atlantic was rather weak.  So I figured maybe Catholic, but not Catholic and Misericordia.  I'll have to review how their number compare to North Park and Carthage as well as some of the other teams I had on my "bubble".

Overall, though, rather predictable selections based on the regional rankings and knowledge of past year's selections.  And that's the intent: that there's no real surprises and teams have a good sense where they stand before today.

Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 11, 2013, 01:59:13 PM
Carthage, even though I predicted the committee would select them, isn't a big surprise to be left out given the 7 losses, and personally I agree with it.  I just figured the Central region was still good for two at-large selections.  North Park as the No. 2 team in the Central region is a surprise omission. 

And who is the surprise inclusion?  Misericordia from the Mid-Atlantic. After Messiah and then the Centennial pair of F&M and Dickinson, I thought the Mid-Atlantic was rather weak.  So I figured maybe Catholic, but not Catholic and Misericordia.  I'll have to review how their number compare to North Park and Carthage as well as some of the other teams I had on my "bubble".

Overall, though, rather predictable selections based on the regional rankings and knowledge of past year's selections.  And that's the intent: that there's no real surprises and teams have a good sense where they stand before today.

Interested to get your thoughts on having Ohio Wesleyan, Messiah and Wheaton all in the same quarter of the bracket.

Very happy for Oberlin.  First bid ever apparently.  Tough for DePauw.  Play in a quality conference, 14-2-3.  Just by the eye test they look better that some of the teams considered locks from other regions.  However, it was pretty obvious a week or so ago that someone out of Kenyon, Oberlin and DePauw was going to be bitterly disappointed.  MidAtlantic really did well with both Catholic and Misercordia.

Speaking of OWU, Messiah and Wheaton all in the same quarter, here is Kenyon's road to the final four -- Ohio Northern (national runnerup), Wheaton on Wheaton's home pitch, OWU (again), and then merely Messiah.  I like Oberlin's draw much better.  Some other teams (Williams for one) got great draws.

OWU (36), Wheaton (34) and Messiah (24) also by far and away the 3 schools with most NCAA appearances.

Best teams not to get in?  DePauw, Emory, North Park, Carthage, Randolph, Wesleyan?

Ohio Northern's run to the final last year was an alignment of the planets, they were thoroughly trounced in the final. 

The top right quadrant looks pretty tough with OWU, Wheaton, Ohio Northern, and Messiah.

Complete opposite would be that bottom right quadrant. All I see is Amherst really. Course I don't know much about Gordon or St. Lawrence.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2013, 03:17:40 PM
Best teams not to get in?  DePauw, Emory, North Park, Carthage, Randolph, Wesleyan?

I don't know about putting Carthage in that list. 7 Losses is difficult to look past.

Maybe Ohio Northern's play in the final was the aberration.  Check out their record and who they beat.

In addition to the 4 teams already mentioned, that quarter also has Franklin and Marshall, Dickinson, Salisbury and Kenyon.  I guess evening out the brackets is not a priority.

Some interesting early or possibly early matchups -- Loras v Luther, Stevens v York, Carnegie Mellon v Montclair, GAC v Carleton, Brandeis v Rutgers-N, F&M v Dickinson, Amherst v Gordon.  The Wartburg/Dominican/Wisc-Osh/Hope subsectional should be a good one.  Also could see SLU knocking out Amherst.  Very fortunate draws go to Rochester, Williams, Rutgers-Camden.

You should see how lopsided the women's quadrants are this year.   

Quote from: Madhatter5 on November 11, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
The top right quadrant looks pretty tough with OWU, Wheaton, Ohio Northern, and Messiah.

Complete opposite would be that bottom right quadrant. All I see is Amherst really. Course I don't know much about Gordon or St. Lawrence.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2013, 03:17:40 PM
Best teams not to get in?  DePauw, Emory, North Park, Carthage, Randolph, Wesleyan?

I don't know about putting Carthage in that list. 7 Losses is difficult to look past.

I wouldn't throw Randolph in that mix, as they didn't beat 1 regionally ranked team.   You can only beat you play, but the SOS speaks for itself.  I would agree with DePauw, Emory, Calvin, and Wesleyan (could have been Williams here if not for making the final).     Surprised that Miseri, MIT, and Roger Williams got in whereas teams like Emory and Calvin got the shaft.

Any word on a D3soccer.com bracketology this year?

Maybe the decisions are more regional than anything, but on paper looks like Messiah outshooting Lycoming 32-2 and losing had a huge impact.  You would think Amherst is the 4th of the #1 seeds and would have been pushed out if Messiah didn't lose.  Sure, Amherst didn't get a bye but they arguably have by far the easiest quadrant of the top teams.  The other bracket on that half of the draw has the last 2 national champions, last year's national runnerup, a very strong Wheaton, Salisbury, and then all the others mentioned earlier.  Probably also impacted Rutgers-Camden.

Hard to believe Stevens v York could be a 2nd round game, as well as Messiah v Salisbury, CMU v Montclair, F&M v Dickinson, and possibly Wheaton v Ohio Northern.

Bracketology would be a good idea. I'll check on that.

Kickin', I like your last statement (as a concept). That might be case for more than one team on any given year...like Wheaton in 06. By the way, it's good to see you continue to add your soccer wisdom to the collective D3soccer.com pool year after year!

Regarding Wheaton men, it will be difficult to predict how they'll do in their pod. On some days, they look like they could beat anyone, yet a few times, they have really struggled to score.

RE: Randolph....So why were they ranked in the top 15-20 nationally most of the year???  I admit I don't know much about the South Atlantic, except that I thought teams like Lynchburg, Roanoke, W&L, etc were pretty good and and they seem to be actual South Atlantic teams compared to the regionally ranked "South Atlantic" teams that one would presume are all in the MidAtlantic.  Except for Emory there wasn't a single regionally ranked true South Atlantic school.  Also there has been little mention of Christopher Newport.  Wonder if they deserved a better assessment.

Still trying to figure out how conference champions like Rutgers-Camden, Stevens, and York end up playing a sweet 16 game (it's really ashame for 2 of these three schools)... whereas teams like Williams and Rutgers-Newark could potentially play each other in the Sweet 16 (two non ranked teams that didn't even win the conference).

Rutgers-Camden benefited in 2011 from being shipped up to the NE Region... I would expect that Newark could also make a run to the Elite 8 before falling to Amherst.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 13, 2013, 08:53:21 PM
Still trying to figure out how conference champions like Rutgers-Camden, Stevens, and York end up playing a sweet 16 game (it's really ashame for 2 of these three schools)... whereas teams like Williams and Rutgers-Newark could potentially play each other in the Sweet 16 (two non ranked teams that didn't even win the conference).

Rutgers-Camden benefited in 2011 from being shipped up to the NE Region... I would expect that Newark could also make a run to the Elite 8 before falling to Amherst.

Yes, this year's bracket was particularly poorly done. I noticed a couple of conference foes destined to play each other a third time in a season. The RUC bracket is the worst.

Loras is my winner, but I'm getting a little nervous about Luther.  At this point they are battle-tested and on a pretty good roll.

The NESCAC folks can get prickly so I'll put this here.

Blake New from Oberlin just won NCAC COY.  Bloecher from OWU POY.  Amolo from Kenyon Newcomer of Year.

Watching Wheaton now.  Surprised that this storied program at apparently storied Joe Bean Stadium appears to lack a newer generation turf field.  Turf certainly is understandable just outside of Chicago, but would think they would have something more up-to-date.  Also the field is advertised as 120 by 75, but there looks to be very minimal out of bounds area with concrete structures extremely close and no room to take proper corner kicks.  Am I wrong?

Wartburg is throttling Dominican 3-0, this was a close match the 1st half and suddenly Wartburg decided enough toying with these guys and began threading the net!

somebody tell wheaton no video for 2nd game!

There we go, HOPE!

Wheaton College get it together!  You are dropping like a stone in the video rankings!

Should be up and running, NCAC...   Kenyon up 1-0  15th min...

Wheaton, get the #1 camera person back please!

Greensboro get demolished by Salisbury ... a shame either the Gulls or Messiah will be done Sunday.

Gulls won't have to migrate far after the loss to Messiah atleast.   Should be a decent game...

That's the problem with the Tournament, and more in part why the Northeast Region and East Regions are stacked for the tournament.  Money, Geography, and likely Host school....

Don't see Salisbury losing that game at home.  Tough draw for a Messiah team that arguably deserved a bye and at least to host.  And that is just the beginning of a very difficult road to San Antonio.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 16, 2013, 12:44:01 PM
Gulls won't have to migrate far after the loss to Messiah atleast.   Should be a decent game...

That's the problem with the Tournament, and more in part why the Northeast Region and East Regions are stacked for the tournament.  Money, Geography, and likely Host school....

Similar to the West in FB. At least the NCAA started moving some of those teams around. Can't see it happening in soccer's bigger tournament field, however.

Kenyon!

Kenyon puts up perhaps the biggest upset thus far by advancing from the Wheaton pod.  Took out #12 Ohio Northern (last year's runner-up) 2-0 then holds on for a 2-1 win over #14 Wheaton.

Not to look ahead, but should Ohio Wesleyan win the sectional will surely be in Delaware, where Kenyon has already played four times this year.  As close to a home game as you could ask for if you're Kenyon, especially considering they'll be getting either #9 Salisbury or #3 Messiah.

Rochester, how about getting the Oberlin-Oneonta video running please!!!

Oneonta with 95% possession literally inside Oberlin 18 and Oberlin which can't get ball in other half somehow is now up 1-0 and Oneonta down a man after handball preventing goal.

Oberlin!  2-0 in a game they were absolutely dominated.

OWU done for the season....No home game for Kenyon...on to Messiah?

Loras, Messiah, Rutgers Camden, and Amherst are hosting.

^^^^Confirmed, or prediction?

Confirmed.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 18, 2013, 08:40:49 AM
^^^^Confirmed, or prediction?

Oh, I don't predict!   ::)

Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 18, 2013, 07:52:08 AM
Loras, Messiah, Rutgers Camden, and Amherst are hosting.

As I would have expected!   Good luck to the remaining 16.  Messiah is a stone cone lead pipe lock for the Final Four!

Would be quite interesting if it were NJAC vs NJAC, IIAC vs IIAC, and NESCAC vs NESCAC in the Elite 8...

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 18, 2013, 10:46:50 AM

Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 18, 2013, 07:52:08 AM
Loras, Messiah, Rutgers Camden, and Amherst are hosting.

As I would have expected!   Good luck to the remaining 16.  Messiah is a stone cone lead pipe lock for the Final Four!

Would be quite interesting if it were NJAC vs NJAC, IIAC vs IIAC, and NESCAC vs NESCAC in the Elite 8...

Accuracy check ...

I believe the phrase is "stone COLD lead pipe lock." 

From what I know about Messiah's approach throughout the years and in multiple tournaments, there is no one in the soccer program that believes that statement.  That is when a team gets knocked off.  I'm not, bu any means, saying that Ohio Wesleyan felt it was guaranteed a win vs. Rose-Hulman, but look what happened yesterday.  If Messiah advances, it will be they are taking NO ONE for granted.  That is what makes Messiah a championship program.

Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on November 18, 2013, 11:07:45 AM

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 18, 2013, 10:46:50 AM

Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 18, 2013, 07:52:08 AM
Loras, Messiah, Rutgers Camden, and Amherst are hosting.

As I would have expected!   Good luck to the remaining 16.  Messiah is a stone cone lead pipe lock for the Final Four!

Would be quite interesting if it were NJAC vs NJAC, IIAC vs IIAC, and NESCAC vs NESCAC in the Elite 8...

Accuracy check ...

I believe the phrase is "stone COLD lead pipe lock." 

From what I know about Messiah's approach throughout the years and in multiple tournaments, there is no one in the soccer program that believes that statement.  That is when a team gets knocked off.  I'm not, bu any means, saying that Ohio Wesleyan felt it was guaranteed a win vs. Rose-Hulman, but look what happened yesterday.  If Messiah advances, it will be they are taking NO ONE for granted.  That is what makes Messiah a championship program.

Accuracy check...

I believe the phrase is "BY any means"


HAHA.  Messiah is a program that is almost ALWAYS prepared.  Since 2000, the Falcons have tournament record of 53-3-4...   Stone Cold I tell ya, STONE COLD!   

Haha...keep the bulletin board material coming for Kenyon!

No problem, NCAC...  Subjective irrelevance!
                     
                         RANK       SOS      OFF       DEF
Kenyon               11          116        33         59         (Bennett)
                           59            15        16         22         (Massey)

Messiah                2          115          7         15         (Bennett)
                             4            23          1         21         (Massey)

'99    Brandt    18    3    1    NCAA Final 8
'00    Brandt    22    2    1    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'01    Brandt    21    2    0    NCAA Final 4, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'02    Brandt    23    2    1    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'03    Brandt    18    2    3    NCAA Final 16, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'04    Brandt    23    2    0    NCAA National Champions
'05    Brandt    24    0    0    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'06    Brandt    22    1    2    NCAA National Champions
'07    Brandt    21    3    0    NCAA Final 4, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'08    Brandt    22    2    2    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions,
247-25-14, 12 yrs.
'09    McCarty    24    1    0    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'10    McCarty    23    1    0    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'11    McCarty    18    1    1    NCAA Final 32, Commonwealth Conference Champions
'12    McCarty    23    0    2    NCAA National Champions, Commonwealth Conference Champions
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NCAA Championships Tournament - All-Time Participation and Results
Through 2012 National Final

All-Time Record                    At Home            Away and Neutral Site
66-12-5, 14 Bye's (.825)    27-7-1 (.786)    39-5-4 (.854)
Goals For - Goals Against    OT Record/(PK not included)    Penalty Kick Shootouts
   170-              49                   10-4 (.714)                                          3-3 (.500)

From here on out, throw away records and streaks.
The hungriest team will win this thing!

Does anyone know if Kenyon submitted the paperwork to host a sectional round?  I'm just a bit surprised that Rose-Hulman will be flying when, with Kenyon hosting, the other three would have bused it to Gambier.

Lastguy, great work!  Just heard the ADs of the other 3 schools decided to cancel the trip for their teams since it is such an obvious waste of $ :)

On a side note, great articles by Ryan Harmanis, especially the OWU upset one which had to be tough to write but was executed to near-perfection.

On paper, the East bracket went from the toughest to the weakest, followed by the Loras sectional.  The Rutgers and Amherst sectional now seem to be the heavyweights. 

Brandeis vs Williams is intriguing and Amherst vs SLU should be an all-out war. 

CCIW, clearly looks like they went with the highest seeds in all groups, which makes sense, except for the RH flight.

I'm sure Gambier has hosted other D3 events but not a ton of good lodging choices nearby either.

Thanks.  Having been on the receiving end of those games when I played it actually felt better to look at it from an analytical/logical perspective.  And while Rose-Hulman really failed to leave their defensive third for the remaining 85 minutes, yesterday was the least potent I've seen OWU in years.  Failing to put one in happens regularly to most top teams, but rarely do they fail to even muster good chances.  From that perspective, Rose-Hulman really deserves a lot of credit.

As for next weekend, Kenyon is obviously a big underdog.  I would say, however, that they're probably better prepared than anyone left in the tournament to go to Messiah after traveling to OWU twice already and beating Wheaton on the road.  In terms of style, Messiah and OWU are eerily similar - the 2011 game was like watching OWU (or Messiah) play itself.  The one difference of note is that Messiah seems more physically imposing, but anyone who has watched Kenyon knows that they'll relish that challenge.  In any event, I doubt Kenyon will be intimidated in the least.

I think you're right on both counts.  When I saw OWU was down 1-0 at the half I didn't blink, assured that they would end up winning 3-1 or 4-1.  OWU ALWAYS scores between the 73rd and 80th minutes.  This time, however, they appeared to tighten up, and none of their usual combination plays leading to wide open shots from 12 years out materialized.  Some panic seemed to set in on the OWU side, and RH seemed remarkably calm just defending out of their own end for essentially the entire 2nd half (and I guess most of the first).

As regards Messiah, they may well blow out Kenyon by 4 or 5 goals but it won't be because of lack of effort or confidence on the Kenyon side.  They will definitely think they are going in there to get a win.  Kenyon grinded out away draws in 2 out of the last 3 against OWU and also 2 years in a row away at DePauw.  The last 2 games were huge in terms of breaking through with actual wins against ONU and Wheaton.  I was very impressed with Wheaton who had not lost since a September Loras clash.

I am curious about your reference to Messiah's physicality.  Are they just bigger than OWU or did you also mean chippy?  The OWU-Kenyon affairs have tended to be quite chippy in their own right.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 18, 2013, 03:54:17 PM

I am curious about your reference to Messiah's physicality.  Are they just bigger than OWU or did you also mean chippy?  The OWU-Kenyon affairs have tended to be quite chippy in their own right.

Just flat-out bigger.  Messiah doesn't necessarily play more physically but I think it allows them to win games in different ways, which could explain why Messiah rarely suffers these losses to teams content to just sit in.  Past OWU teams struggled with big, tough defensive teams because if they couldn't pass through them it was tough to score.  This year's team seemed to wear everyone down, following Messiah/Loras' lead in rotating attacking players more often and using a few more guys to great effect.  Just didn't happen to work yesterday.

Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on November 18, 2013, 02:37:52 PM
Does anyone know if Kenyon submitted the paperwork to host a sectional round?  I'm just a bit surprised that Rose-Hulman will be flying when, with Kenyon hosting, the other three would have bused it to Gambier.

My impression from the last decade or so is that flying one team so that the top seed can host is not uncommon.  I haven't looked back through the brackets to confirm this impression, however, so take my impression for what it's worth.  The problem is more with having to fly 2 or 3 teams. 

The cost-savings factor is real and effects match-ups, bracketing, and hosting--no doubt about that.  But I think people have an exaggerated impression of it's effect that isn't always fair to the committee/NCAA.   

In the case of Messiah vs. Kenyon to host, there's not much point in discussing it too much until you have confirmation that Kenyon did in fact bid to host.  Even if they did bid to host (and I'd tend to think they would have), I still don't find it surprising in the least that Messiah was still selected as host.

Ryan, I am more familiar with OWU than the others teams you mentioned, but I have never seen a team/coach play 19-20 players so adroitly.  Seems like Martin sends wave after wave of offensive threats.  The POY in the conference didn't even start most games.  Other teams just can't match OWU's depth and by the 75th minute or so the effects come through.    I'm guessing that part of what happened yesterday is that RH conserved energy by not even pretending to play OWU straight up.  They just expended energy in half or even a 3rd of the field instead of running and chasing over the whole pitch.

Christan, I agree.  Messiah is the deserved host without question, especially if the hosting of the other sections was going to be based on seeding/record.  Not a bad trip for Kenyon at all, and they may actually prefer the challenge of playing at Messiah.  No pressure on them.  They have already exceeded expectations (of others).

Loras regularly plays 21-22 players a match.  They have had at least 20 different players score a goal the last 3 seasons with as many as 23 different players scoring in 2010.  With such a deep bench and another 23 players on the Reserves squad it make them a formatible opponent.

No worries Kickin.  Loras is my pick to win it all.  There are 5-6 schools who expect to get to sweet 16 or better every single year.  For the rest, they have to seize their chance when they get it, as no guarantees will be back any time soon.  Also wonder in tight NCAA games if playing so many players works the other way a little.  OWU's or Loras' or Messiah's 2nd 11 might still be top 25 teams, but you can only play 11 at a time.

Most dominant?  Messiah soccer or Kenyon swimming?

The correct answer is Trinity Squash, NCAC

Could the NJAC have a 5th national champion from the conference this year with either RU-C or MSU?!   Rowan '81, '90; Kean '92; TCNJ '96; Stockton '01 hahah.

Valiant effort, lastguy.  But by my math 32 national titles (32 out of last 34 years) trumps 13.  Not to mention that squash hasn't qualified as a NCAA sport.

More appropriately, Kenyon Swimming or North Central Cross Country!

I don't know all these teams so well.  Can anyone post the leagues that the 16 teams still in come from?

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 20, 2013, 06:21:39 PM
Valiant effort, lastguy.  But by my math 32 national titles (32 out of last 34 years) trumps 13.  Not to mention that squash hasn't qualified as a NCAA sport.

Yes but: because it's not officially sanctioned by the NCAA, squash is not separated by divisions, so Trinity competes with D1 schools.  What's interesting about their squash program is that they not only won 13 national titles in a row, they didn't lose a match for 13+ years. That's quite a feat for a small school. That having been said, the titles that Messiah has won over the last decade plus is more amazing. First of all: there are 400 programs (there are about 60 squash programs). Moreover, soccer is a much more random game than Squash. In Squash, the better player wins 97% of the time. The same can't be said for soccer. Aside from their Neumann loss, Messiah managed to avoid the horrendous upsets that plague footie, over and over.

As for swimming (if that's what's referenced above), I don't know nuttin' about nuttin'.

Rutgers-Camden    NJAC
York                        CAC
Montclair St            NJAC
Rochester              UAA
----------------------------------
Loras                     IIAC
Westminster         SLIAC
Trinity                    SCAC
Wartburg              IIAC
----------------------------------
Rose-Hulman        HCAC
F&M                      Centennial
Kenyon                 NCAC
Messiah                MAC Commonwealth
----------------------------------
Brandeis               UAA
Williams                NESCAC
St. Lawrence        Liberty
Amherst                NESCAC

Excellent sectional preview articles so far.  Very well done.  The quality of the writing on the site, from Shirk to the new guys, is superb.  I assume these are side hobbies for all, but any of them could be doing high-end sports coverage.  Too bad they don't have even more time to devote to things like profiles of some of the student-athletes who really are exceptional young adults.  Very appreciative of what is here, though.

+1 NCAC.

I have a feeling that if the traffic to the site warranted it that there would be more stories.    Soccer just doesn't get the hits that the other football, basketball, and baseball sites do.

Very thankful to have what we do have.  Living in TX there isn't any media interested in covering college soccer, let alone D3 soccer.

The Future is the present my friend.
There is no stopping football (soccer) now. People now know the athletic ability it takes to excel at the sport.
Turn on your TV to NBC.
Good luck to Trinity (This weekend that is).

Mr. Boerger, I agree.  Surprised the message boards haven't been rocking these past couple of weeks and seems especially slow this week.  Even the Loras consortium seems to be running out of steam.  The NESCAC group, save for the complaint about bids, also is rather dormant.  Come on folks.  This is exciting.  Sweet sixteen.  Let's go!

There is no doubt soccer is growing as a professional sport in this country 40 years after it really started growing as a youth sport. We will see how far it gets. I think MLS will eventually overtake the NHL, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for overtaking MLB, NCAA basketball, NBA, NCAA football, or the NFL in any kind of national popularity.

All that being said, to be a major sport I don't think it needs to overtake those sports, and it is nice to see soccer highlights on ESPN, games (even if they are mostly European) on TV every weekend on both network and cable channels, and the undeniably growing popularity of the USMNT, with a sidebar to the successful popularity of the USWMNT (even if we can't make a women's pro league stick). Heck, when I was growing up we couldn't even watch the World Cup ('86 and '90), now the U.S. broadcast rights are some of the most expensive in the world.

We'll see how the continued growth of MLS works out and if the league can continue a climb to global respectability if not relevance. In order to do so, the TV contracts will need to continue to grow to allow for more player compensation, and in order for that to happen MLS needs to turn its strong local fanbases into a more national audience.

Either way, professional soccer is here to stay rather than just the brief cameo it had in the late 70s and early 80s. The question will be how big can it get?

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 22, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Mr. Boerger, I agree.  Surprised the message boards haven't been rocking these past couple of weeks and seems especially slow this week.  Even the Loras consortium seems to be running out of steam.  The NESCAC group, save for the complaint about bids, also is rather dormant.  Come on folks.  This is exciting.  Sweet sixteen.  Let's go!

The Loras contingent are trying to get our winter down fluffed up after the last few days of cold weather went from 50's and sun to 20's and snow with nasty wind)!  Now that we have had our obligatory 2 days of acclimation I am sure the post will be picking up again.  I would love to get video of the Trinity lads stepping off the plane in Dubuque, IA and getting their first breathe of 20 degree low humidity lung burnin' midwest fall air!  I am not sure how quickly they will be able to acclimate to the change in temp, I know it drops in TX from time to time, but 70's to 20's in a matter of 2 hours is quite a bit to ask.  The ball will be a bit harder the sting of a clipped heel or clashed shins exponentially worse and trying to stay warm can zap your fitness and we just received a fresh 3 inch coat of the fluffy white stuff (should be gone by tomorrow ;-).

Quote from: jknezek on November 22, 2013, 09:07:56 AM
There is no doubt soccer is growing as a professional sport in this country 40 years after it really started growing as a youth sport. We will see how far it gets. I think MLS will eventually overtake the NHL, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for overtaking MLB, NCAA basketball, NBA, NCAA football, or the NFL in any kind of national popularity.

All that being said, to be a major sport I don't think it needs to overtake those sports, and it is nice to see soccer highlights on ESPN, games (even if they are mostly European) on TV every weekend on both network and cable channels, and the undeniably growing popularity of the USMNT, with a sidebar to the successful popularity of the USWMNT (even if we can't make a women's pro league stick). Heck, when I was growing up we couldn't even watch the World Cup ('86 and '90), now the U.S. broadcast rights are some of the most expensive in the world.

We'll see how the continued growth of MLS works out and if the league can continue a climb to global respectability if not relevance. In order to do so, the TV contracts will need to continue to grow to allow for more player compensation, and in order for that to happen MLS needs to turn its strong local fanbases into a more national audience.

Either way, professional soccer is here to stay rather than just the brief cameo it had in the late 70s and early 80s. The question will be how big can it get?

I think the US TV market took a huge leap this year showing the EPL on NBC's primetime weekend slots.

Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 22, 2013, 09:15:00 AM

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 22, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Mr. Boerger, I agree.  Surprised the message boards haven't been rocking these past couple of weeks and seems especially slow this week.  Even the Loras consortium seems to be running out of steam.  The NESCAC group, save for the complaint about bids, also is rather dormant.  Come on folks.  This is exciting.  Sweet sixteen.  Let's go!

The Loras contingent are trying to get our winter down fluffed up after the last few days of cold weather went from 50's and sun to 20's and snow with nasty wind)!  Now that we have had our obligatory 2 days of acclimation I am sure the post will be picking up again.  I would love to get video of the Trinity lads stepping off the plane in Dubuque, IA and getting their first breathe of 20 degree low humidity lung burnin' midwest fall air!  I am not sure how quickly they will be able to acclimate to the change in temp, I know it drops in TX from time to time, but 70's to 20's in a matter of 2 hours is quite a bit to ask.  The ball will be a bit harder the sting of a clipped heel or clashed shins exponentially worse and trying to stay warm can zap your fitness and we just received a fresh 3 inch coat of the fluffy white stuff (should be gone by tomorrow ;-).

Trinity is probably flying to Chicago or Des Moines and then taking a bus to Dubuque.  But either way, the conversations will go something like this.

Trinity Player #1: "WOW it is cold up here."
Trinity Player #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLNS3HWfCM

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 22, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Mr. Boerger, I agree.  Surprised the message boards haven't been rocking these past couple of weeks and seems especially slow this week.  Even the Loras consortium seems to be running out of steam.  The NESCAC group, save for the complaint about bids, also is rather dormant.  Come on folks.  This is exciting.  Sweet sixteen.  Let's go!

Calm before the storm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A3quSLt-Pc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTKpKBzd7jg

LOL I'm not "Mr Boerger" ... that would be my dad.  The only reason my name is here is I used to be one of the football regional columnists.

I think the Trinity guys played in the snow during their national championship but the guys on this year's team were just figuring there was more to the sport besides chasing the ball back then  ;)   It's not a WHOLE lot better down here right now, upper 30s/low 40s and very windy and somewhat wet.

Good luck to all the teams this weekend and thanks for the conversation all season.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 22, 2013, 07:28:34 AM
Excellent sectional preview articles so far.  Very well done.  The quality of the writing on the site, from Shirk to the new guys, is superb.  I assume these are side hobbies for all, but any of them could be doing high-end sports coverage.  Too bad they don't have even more time to devote to things like profiles of some of the student-athletes who really are exceptional young adults.  Very appreciative of what is here, though.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 22, 2013, 08:12:19 AM
+1 NCAC.

I have a feeling that if the traffic to the site warranted it that there would be more stories.    Soccer just doesn't get the hits that the other football, basketball, and baseball sites do.

Very thankful to have what we do have.  Living in TX there isn't any media interested in covering college soccer, let alone D3 soccer.

Thank you for the kind words and compliments. 

You are right, the website is pretty much a hobby for us.  One we take very seriously, but it can't always be priority no. 1, or even no. 2 or 3, . . . even during the soccer season.  The number of articles has nothing to do with how many visitors or hits we are getting, it just reflects how much "hobby time" and energy we have left over to write after we take care of the other aspects of the site (keeping schedules/results up-to-date; doing the Top 25 polling, tallying, and posting; preparing and maintaining the Conference Championship Central and NCAA Tournament Central, etc.).  Speaking personally, I am as frustrated as anyone that I no longer have the time to contribute more columns.  The additions of Jim Naprstek (who's work should not be unfamiliar to some of our visitors) and Ryan Harmanis late in the season has been wonderful and they are doing awesome work for the site, including on the two men's sectional previews that we have put out so far.  If we are able to hold onto them for next season (fingers crossed), the site stands a much better chance of having fresh, new content with greater frequency and of having more content that goes beyond the factual recaps and results summaries and more into the opinion/editorial realm.  And if you or someone you know would be a great addition to our now growing staff of (unpaid, volunteer, for-the-love-of-D-III-soccer) writers, please reach out to us in the off-season.   

To wrap up, we sincerely appreciate the visits and hits that let us know that a website like this one is needed and wanted for D-III soccer and worth the effort.  And we do enjoy hearing feedback, especially positive compliments (but also negative and/or constructive criticism).  So, thanks.

Now can I muster up the energy to do a sectional preview of my own?

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 22, 2013, 12:13:52 PM
LOL I'm not "Mr Boerger" ... that would be my dad.  The only reason my name is here is I used to be one of the football regional columnists.
I think the Trinity guys played in the snow during their national championship but the guys on this year's team were just figuring there was more to the sport besides chasing the ball back then  ;)   It's not a WHOLE lot better down here right now, upper 30s/low 40s and very windy and somewhat wet.

Good luck to all the teams this weekend and thanks for the conversation all season.

Yeah, we liked his old screen name alias much better!

What good is talk at this point?  It's time to see what happens on the pitch, the rest is just wasted pixels!! ???

As noted on the NESCAC thread for Amherst today, weather is going to play a major role at most or all sites.  Windy and cold at Amherst.  Windy with heavy gusts and frigid wind chill at Messiah.  Bone-crushing cold at Loras.  Snow for the women at Middlebury?  And assume very cold/windy at William Smith.  With the exception of teams playing out of climate (i.e. Trinity), do less than ideal condition and especially the heavy winds favor the underdogs, the favorites, or are they neutral?

I  believe that the wind (and other conditions that can affect the game) is to the less-talented team's advantage.

Let's say, on a perfect day, the probability for the most talented team to win is 60 percent (three times out of five, the better team will win).  However, throw in bad weather conditions (in this case, the wind), we will assume that both teams will be penalized equally -- maybe a factor of 20 percent in controlling the ball and keeping possession.  So now, the sixty-forty percentage changes.  The 20 percent is split equally, and now the remaining 80 percent, split 60-40 becomes 48-32.   Add the wind factor -- 10 percent for both teams -- and the percentage becomes 58-42.  The more talented team's win probability drops from 60 to 58 percent.  Of course, adverse weather conditions can impact the game more than the 20 percent that I am using to illustrate this example.  In any case, however, the less-talented will benefit more from "equalizers" than the more-talented team will.

In more extreme weather, we'll say that the conditions have a 50 percent factor.  Thus, the percentages become 30-20, favoring the better team, plus splitting the weather factor (25-25), the new percentages become 55-45.  At that point, especially in the sport of soccer, the game is a toss-up.

Hdre's hoping that the better teams will not allow bad weather to end their seasons.

there's a 100% (10/10) chance that those numbers are completely made up...

Quote from: Durantula on November 23, 2013, 11:11:48 AM
there's a 100% (10/10) chance that those numbers are completely made up...

Haha, what about the percentage where.... better teams find ways to win?   

Wind does not really affect a good team's ability to keep possession, maintain shape, and adhere to game plan.    It can help teams that like to play direct that have true speed.

Rain, on the other hand, kills a teams chances to play direct and use speed (see Montclair St. and Messiah) on the rain soaked field earlier in the year. 

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 23, 2013, 12:02:51 PM
Wind does not really affect a good team's ability to keep possession, maintain shape, and adhere to game plan.    It can help teams that like to play direct that have true speed.

I would have to disagree with you on that point. Wind is one of the worst factors to play in. It can pin a team down when they are going against it and are trying to move the ball up the pitch with a goal kick. Or it can change the direction of a corner kick/ cross in an instant. It makes it easier for an underdog team that has the plan of packing it in against a high possession team.

Rain on the other hand will help those fast teams as the ball will skid more and move a bit faster, as long as it doesn't hit a puddle. That's why you see European teams soaking their grounds before games, to increase the speed.

Messiah and Kenyon knotted at 1 at the half.  Messiah scores early and (unsurprisingly) controls possession for most of the half.  Kenyon, however, manufactures a chance or two before they're gifted a goal following a defensive mix-up by Messiah.  As a side note, in Kenyon's last trip to the tournament (2010), they lost to Ohio Wesleyan after a centerback/goalkeeper miscue led to an open-net goal for the Bishops, so a little bit full circle.

Messiah's announcers are getting a little touchy at the referee here.  Perhaps a missed call or two, but I think it probably better reflects the fact that they're a little tense and uncomfortable with a tie game in the second half.

The Messiah announcers are an embarrassment to the College.  These two yahoos are worse than 'homers,'  I'd have to call them 'grand-slammers' in their bias.  I'm surprised that Messiah lets them get by with such amateurism.

Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on November 23, 2013, 06:32:16 PM
The Messiah announcers are an embarrassment to the College.  These two yahoos are worse than 'homers,'  I'd have to call them 'grand-slammers' in their bias.  I'm surprised that Messiah lets them get by with such amateurism.

I think they're just clearly fans as opposed to announcers.  It almost seems like their panic has seeped into the team, as Kenyon has easily had the better of the play in the second half.  Despite having the benefit of a strong wind, Messiah can't string much together.

Messiah escapes 2-1 with a last-minute game winner.  Kenyon controlled the first 35 minutes of the second half and missed a few chances including an absolute sitter from within 10 yards.  Messiah dominated the last ten, had one saved off the line then scored a nice individual goal to advance to the Elite Eight.

Camden vs York...

York came out with a few decent chances.  Camden settled in, began possessing better and getting numbers forward... 2 nice first half goals (first low driven shot side panel from 25 out after a nice build up, 2nd was a volley blast off a corner from about 20 out).

Up 3-0 after a mishap in the back by York.

York made it 3-1 after a ball slipped passed a defender and forward slotted it home from 8yds out.

Camden still attacked/countered... missed 2 sitters and a breakaway later in the game.

Saw the Messiah game live.  Messiah is great team.  Best D3 team I've ever seen, and I've seen OWU multiple teams, including this year.  Now I haven't seen Rutgers-C, Loras or Amherst live, but Messiah deserves all the kudos they get.  That said, Kenyon was very gritty, very injured, and almost pulled out this game.  Messiah clearly was beginning to panic and Kenyon had a few great chances to go ahead.  Credit to Kenyon for overcoming the start they absolutely could not afford allowing the early goal.  It took Kenyon a while to adjust to how good Messiah was, especially Thompson on the left.  Kenyon needed to get subs in for the last 10 minutes and Messiah smartly did not sub so Kenyon couldn't get their subs in.  Great winning goal by Messiah as Kenyon just couldn't hold them off any longer.  Less than 2 minutes from OT and Kenyon would have had the wind in their favor again for the first one. 

I have received numerous calls about how horrible the Messiah announcers were and calling Kenyon players thugs and giving no credit at all.  I heard the announcers were in a panic, acting as though Messiah is guaranteed to win and it is their right to win.  Great field, great setting.

If you watch Amherst live feed tomorrow... MUTE!  haha

After reading the tweets from Rose Hulman fans, their supposedly intellect is questioned by their lack of class.  Sexual innuendos show the length they will go to do be poor losers.
Messiah should have the advantage of home field and fan support tomorrow.

Messiah should roll to a 2-0 or 3-0 win today...

Predictions

Amherst 2, Williams 1.
Trinity 2, Loras 1 (OT)
Rutgers-Camden 2, MSU 1.
Messiah 2, F&M 0

Knocking off a team 3x in a season is no easy feat, but the Amherst Seniors have only lost 1 time at home and "0" in their last 40.  The records book call it a non-loss, but the Lord Jeffs were knocked out last year and shall get their revenge!  They are deserving of a Final Four bid, so good luck to them.  Direct style vs possession (game 1); Direct vs possession (game 2 - Montclair St vs Camden, respectively)


I would give all the host teams the benefit of the doubt, but Trinity is still unbeaten "on the road" this season and looks to be in very good form.  Will playing the later game last night affect Trinity?  I don't think so, but with an impressive GD of 84 (only 8 allowed)... I'm backing the Tigers to head back to San Antonio with a chance to win the National Championship.    I believe Loras also only has 1 home last the last 3 seasons.  This is going to be a great game! 


Rutgers-Camden, much like teams from the NESCAC, are banged up us well.  The long NJAC season does affect the players, as I am sure Montclair St is facing the same issue.  Rochester was the better team last night in that clash, but couldn't pull out the W.   Regardless, 180 minutes of denying the UAA a goal (CMU was only shut out once this season, by Rochester in their 0-0 draw; Rochester was only shutout 1-0 by St. Lawrence and the CMU match).   The only time Camden was shut out this season was in the 0-0 draw Homecoming Weekend vs Montclair.  Can Montclair deny Camden again from finding the net?  Camden has only trailed in two games this season; once for 10 minutes, another for 40 minutes and have only lost once at home in their last 35 matches.  I give the nod to Camden to pull this one out and expect the crime rate to increase in San Antonio on the weekend of December 6th.


Messiah is... well, Messiah.  Did not catch the Kenyon game, but heard Kenyon played very well.  F&M riding 270 minutes of denying a goal, didn't see the games so not sure how much they were tested defensively.  Should be something like 25-15 shot count in favor of Messiah, and they will find the net more than once.  Book your trip to San Antonio, Falcon fans.

I was at the RUC game last night as well. I was very impressed with Camden. They were able to handle the York direct high-speed attack and high pressure. I was happy to see good soccer prevail over jungle ball. I'd love to see a Messiah-RUC match.

It's comical that #25 for Camden was only an All-Conference Honorable Mention...  Best player on the field, just about every single game.  Great defender, phenomenal +/-, and a true leader. 

Sirius, I will be at the game today... most likely the only ahole wearing shorts, siriusly.   

Did you happen to see the SLU goal vs Amherst?   I have watched a majority of these live feeds, and I would put that half volley blast from Rutgers-Camden as goal of the tournament so far...

Don't think I can make it today, but if I do, I'll say hi to any numpty wearing shorts ;D. The volley goal from RUC was the best goal I've seen all year. Had the net not stopped the shot, It would have landed in Philadelphia. The first goal was pretty sweet as well: very little space, and under pressure, the RUC middie one-timed a curving lefty into the lower right corner.

Good luck to the teams today and major props to some of the teams that are out.

The end is brutally final when it comes and of course only one team will avoid that feeling.  I watched the Amherst-SLU game and Amherst was VERY fortunate to survive.  SLU is VERY good.  Not a big fan of Amherst's team or style and the sideline act was incessant and atrocious, but that said I will cheer for them today.  They deserve a final 4 trip after these last couple of seasons and Williams in my view has had a very fortunate draw. 

The commentators here I think were on to something with the how will some teams react to the big stage and the value of knowing you are already a powerhouse references.  I had expected Rochester to win.  And while Kenyon played like they were ready for the big moment Messiah exuded a confidence that said there was no way they would walk off the field a loser.  And of course it doesn't hurt that Messiah has a bunch of players one can imagine excelling at the D1 level.  Thompson is extremely dangerous (and gifted) and there is a huge center forward 5th year senior with 20 goals supported by the national POY.  And Robbins the center back is an absolute monster who makes great service into the midfield.  Glad I had the opportunity to see Messiah play and experience what the ruckus regarding the program is all about.  Very curious to see if F&M can give them a go like Kenyon did.

I was pulling for Wartburg too.  You wonder if these teams who had great runs this year (that usually don't) will get another shot in a similar spot in the next year or two.  Clearly the draw has an impact too.  Just compare the Stevens draw this year to that of Williams.

Had the pleasure of watching Messiah again on the video feed.  Dominant performance by Messiah.  Expect them to demolish Williams and then be challenged in the final vs Rutgers-C or Loras (assuming Loras remains in control with Trinity after going ahead and Trinity now down to 10 men). 

Also had the misfortune of listening to the Messiah announcers.  These are not just students or "fans."  The two guys presented themselves as the  "professional" Messiah broadcast team who have been serving Messiah nation for a long time.  The innuendo of their comments about F&M (like playing Messiah "straight up" and many others) clearly were shots at the Kenyon game, and they made tons of comments about how Messiah was playing much better tonight.  They looked the same to me.  Maybe they just had a tougher opponent the night before.  The backdrop also seemed to involve F&M being coached by a Messiah guy.  But even wanting to elevate F&M and be nice to them, they still couldn't help themselves as the game progressed.  Even up 3-0 they started complaining about the ref and called Messiah's goal to go up 4-0 "poetic justice" for a missed call.  Meanwhile, the play-by-play guy was watching the Navy vs Wake Forest soccer game the whole time and giving commentary on that game.  You know it's not good when 2011 national POY Travis Wall from OWU is tweeting what an embarrassment these guys are to Messiah's great team and program. 

Feel terrible about the Amherst result.  Even if you don't like them must be heartbreaking not to get to a final four either of these last 2 years and especially to have Williams be the team to take them out both times.  Williams needed 2 wins in the conference tourney to just get a bid and now they are going to the final four yet again.

Loras takes out Trinity 2-1.  Loras controlled majority of this match until Trinity was a man down due RC. Loras went in to prevent and allowed Trinity to bring at them will little opposition. 

Looking forward to the Loras vs Rutgers-Camden match...


Camden scored a goal in the first 4 minutes off a well placed shot that just tucked into side panel from 20-25 out....   and again a few minutes later off a decent build up and slotted ball behind the defender, forward slipped the ball over the goalies shoulder.   Montclair was without Mendoza again, Camden maintained control for most of the 1st half.

2nd half Montclair made some adjustments, Camden did not possess as much and absorbed some pressure. 

Montclair earned a PK with 25 to go and the game got interesting.  MSU played with more urgency and was able to slip a thru ball passed Camdens defense with about 7 minutes remaining, struck a volley where Camden GK made a great one-handed reaction save.

Trinity shows very little class in their defeat, 2 red cards for cursing out the official and one player even screamed obscenities at the crowd as his own team was receiving their participation awards.  Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't witnessed it. 

An Amherst player came over to the crowd after beating SLU and started cursing them out and flipping them off too. I don't really understand why players think it's a good idea to interact like that with an opposing team's fans.

Very unfortunate indeed.

Quote from: Sandy on November 24, 2013, 11:40:55 PM
An Amherst player came over to the crowd after beating SLU and started cursing them out and flipping them off too. I don't really understand why players think it's a good idea to interact like that with an opposing team's fans.

In the case of Amherst, this behavior is modelled by their classless coaching staff. It's a way of life for Amherst College Soccer.

Quote from: Sirius90 on November 25, 2013, 07:54:23 AM

Quote from: Sandy on November 24, 2013, 11:40:55 PM
An Amherst player came over to the crowd after beating SLU and started cursing them out and flipping them off too. I don't really understand why players think it's a good idea to interact like that with an opposing team's fans.

In the case of Amherst, this behavior is modelled by their classless coaching staff. It's a way of life for Amherst College Soccer.

That's exactly the case with Trinity, their coaching staff including the head coach were fingers in faces with the officials and cursing out Loras players and coaches.  One player from Trinity actually called Loras's head coach a "Puto" directly in his face during the team hand shake which if you don't speak spanish is a derogatory word in the same context as "fag".  I am assuming he didn't realize he was speaking to the Head coach because this same player was actually apologizing to the Assoc coach for other players on his teams actions.

I understand that a loss is painful and even more so in the Elite 8, but where is your moral compass as a coach when you allow your players and staff to act like that.  The respect of the game is being destroyed by guys like these coaches who let their players run undisciplined and actually encourage this behavior.
Maybe Trinity wouldn't have been so mad if Loras would have put away just the chances inside the 12 like they should have and made this the 4-1 match it should have been. Take away the first 10 and last 5 minutes of the match and it was complete steamrolling by the DuHawks. The last 5 was a "sit back and defend the win" against 10 players, which drives every spectator and coach nuts, but at that point Loras knew Trinity didn't have the horses to break their defense and basically said "come get some"!

Agree totally about the behavior, but what was Trinity so amped about?  Was it the 2nd goal off the Cavers corner?  Were they saying the GK or another player got dragged down to allow the goal to be scored?  Looked like the ball was almost in direct from Cavers and that the Loras player got his head on it when the ball was over or almost already over the line.

It is bitterly disappointing for these teams, especially the ones with the sparkling records (like Amherst), to cope with the ending, and having that happen in these big games on another team's home field certainly adds to the drama (although in Amherst's case may be even more painful losing 2 elite 8 games in a row, to the same bitter rival, on their home pitch).  Not sure how they come back from that.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 25, 2013, 09:44:51 AM
Agree totally about the behavior, but what was Trinity so amped about?  Was it the 2nd goal off the Cavers corner?  Were they saying the GK or another player got dragged down to allow the goal to be scored?  Looked like the ball was almost in direct from Cavers and that the Loras player got his head on it when the ball was over or almost already over the line.

It is bitterly disappointing for these teams, especially the ones with the sparkling records (like Amherst), to cope with the ending, and having that happen in these big games on another team's home field certainly adds to the drama (although in Amherst's case may be even more painful losing 2 elite 8 games in a row, to the same bitter rival, on their home pitch).  Not sure how they come back from that.

I actually saw a still picture of the Pizzello goal that Mrs. B took.  Perfectly timed photo, I can tell you first hand that there was no other player impeding the goalie on that play.  Pizzello was 16" above everyone else and his head was literally in the goal after his finish.  The keeper ate a healthy serving Mike's lower body region and it was all un obstructed and legit.  The proof is in the pictures.
Since you mentioned Cavers I wanted to point out how well I thinked he played last night.  He stepped up his defense to another level, he was picking pockets left and right.  His passing and vision was the same pin point accuracy as we have come to expect, but he really showed the complete package last night with his defense.
As long as I am talking about players I should mention the play of #11 from Trinity as well, he was phenomenal in his skill and quickness, rarely do you see that level of skill in DIII.

I saw a comment on the Messiah webcast and thought I would chime in as well.

After watching bits and pieces of the Messiah/Kenyon match I was astonished at the commentators for Messiah.  Messiah is a very good team with a second-to-none D3 soccer history.  I would think they could find some commentators with a little bit more class than what I was listening to on Friday evening.  The game was a little bit chippy with both teams working their tails off (exactly what you should expect from a Sweet 16 NCAA tournament game).  The announcers were extremely negative, often times towards their own team and the quality of their play.  Sorry Messiah, not every game is going to be a 4-0 victory, and if you squeeze out a 2-1 win against a team that plays defensive, gets into your head with some physical play, and tries to hit you with a counter or score on a set piece, so be it.  That is soccer... Get off your high horse, stop being dinks to your own team and the opposition, and enjoy the fact that you have a great team with an unbelievable reputation for quality D3 soccer. 

Edited to say that this is a comment made only to the commentators for Friday's match.

Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 25, 2013, 01:25:36 PM
I saw a comment on the Messiah webcast and thought I would chime in as well.

After watching bits and pieces of the Messiah/Kenyon match I was astonished at the commentators for Messiah.  Messiah is a very good team with a second-to-none D3 soccer history.  I would think they could find some commentators with a little bit more class than what I was listening to on Friday evening.  The game was a little bit chippy with both teams working their tails off (exactly what you should expect from a Sweet 16 NCAA tournament game).  The announcers were extremely negative, often times towards their own team and the quality of their play.  Sorry Messiah, not every game is going to be a 4-0 victory, and if you squeeze out a 2-1 win against a team that plays defensive, gets into your head with some physical play, and tries to hit you with a counter or score on a set piece, so be it.  That is soccer... Get off your high horse, stop being dinks to your own team and the opposition, and enjoy the fact that you have a great team with an unbelievable reputation for quality D3 soccer. 

Edited to say that this is a comment made only to the commentators for Friday's match.

+1

Just want to say on Amherst vs. Williams, the result this year was no fluke.  Last year, without a doubt, was simply bad luck for the Jeffs -- they totally dominated Williams, and had countless near misses -- I've never seen so many shots hit the woodwork in a single game without one going in.  But Williams by all accounts outplayed Amherst yesterday and created more dangerous chances, and Williams has been an entirely different team in the post-season.  The Ephs could easily have beaten Amherst the last time the two played (they were basically dead-even), and the winning goal for Amherst was on a flukey / bad-luck sort of play.  Williams took awhile to find its groove offensively this season because the star striker Rashid was recovering much of the year from a serious injury, and only in recent weeks have he, Muralles, and impressive frosh Mountenot gotten on the same page as the engine of the offense.  Also, Chris Conder, who replaced a player who was injured vs. Amherst, has added an entirely new dimension to Williams set-pieces with his consistently precise services. 

Amherst was VERY fortunate to not pick up one or two losses this year, a bunch of narrow escapes aided by some spectacular play by the Jeffs' monster in goal and some overall good fortune.  But the Jeffs were nowhere close to the dominating juggernaut of last season, which I really believe could have given even Messiah a game had they received better fortune and made it into the Final Four.  Despite the teams' very different records, I believe that by season's end Williams was the slightly better team, and they truly deserved to advance.  All that being said, I don't think that EITHER Amherst (despite its record) or Williams is truly a nationally elite team, and everything will have to go right for the Ephs to stand a chance vs. Messiah. 

Williams could actually be nationally elite next year if they manage to find a goalie (a big if, unclear if the guy is on the current roster, although they do have an athletic 6'4 rising senior who looks interesting) to replace Morrell, and assuming they add one or two more good recruits who can help right away, as they typically do.  The Ephs bring back nearly every player of consequence, including the three star offensive creators mentioned above, and I expect the crafty Mountenot to play a much bigger role next season.  The Ephs also return Michael Madding, who missed all year with an injury but would have been a key holding midfielder, and two starting defenders who were injured in the NESCAC title game.  The Ephs will have 7-8 very experienced starting-caliber defenders next year, allowing one or two to help up front or in midfield.  They arrived a year early, but will be loaded if they can figure out the goalie situation. 

nescac1, that is some good spin on Amherst vs Williams.  Amherst had the 40 game unbeaten streak and Williams is a 6 loss team that barely made the tournament.  To not advance for a 2nd straight time on your home field with that kind of record is just devastating and there has got to be some kind of karma that rival Williams again played role of spoiler.  I will grant you that last year's Amherst may have been slightly better than this year's team but certainly that is even more true of Williams.

A couple of last points on Messiah, their extensive subbing (again noted in the latest preview article on this site), and the announcers.  Messiah only used 5 subs against Kenyon.  When was the last time that happened?  Maybe they really were in a very tough game, scared to death, and within a hair of losing.  In addition to "the sitter" Kenyon had in the 73rd minute, their striker also got loose and had the edge on the defender on a semi-breakaway and with one more touch likely would have scored.  On the alleged "gifted" goal, Kenyon pressure created the Messiah mix-up and the player still had to get the ball in the net from a good 25 yards out.  Among the constant barrage of insults, apparently the announcers kept harping on Kenyon having "big" players who used their massive size in their "thuggery."  Kenyon does have a good-sized back line (although no one as big as Messiah's superb center back), but everywhere else on the field Messiah was MUCH bigger.  Wood and Payne (both great) are huge, and Thompson (great) although listed at 5'9 is built like a truck and extremely powerful.  Ryan Harmanis is correct that this is the big difference between Messiah and OWU -- both great teams with exquisite movement, passing and combination play but Messiah is physically more imposing and a little more athletic.  Would have been a great game to watch but Messiah would have to be favored over OWU.

Finally, on the little Loras debate on the other thread.  Loras is a great team that played a very tough schedule.  That poster is out of his mind.  That of course doesn't mean Loras will beat Rutgers-C, but those are 3 powerhouses in the final four and any of the 3 could win it.  If Williams wins it they should build a statue of Russo (if there isn't one on campus already).

How good is Mike Ryan from R-C?  I noticed he was a high school all-american who dropped 60 some goals his senior year.   

Quote from: ldahoSoccer on November 26, 2013, 10:18:07 AM
How good is Mike Ryan from R-C?  I noticed he was a high school all-american who dropped 60 some goals his senior year.   

Looks like he had a tremendous Freshman season and currently has 21 goals and 4 assists.  Just kind of player Burgy likes to mark out of relevance.  Remember #7 from Trinity from sunday's match, the 3 time All American who lit up the scoreboards and dished out assists all season long?  don't feel bad nobody else remembers him either, because Mitch Burgmeier marked him off the pitch.

#7 had one shot on goal..however it was a dangerous one. He took the corner in the 81' and nearly bent it into the goal. #24 for Loras cleared it off the goal line.

But besides that, he took a shot 40 seconds in that sailed high. Pretty quiet night for a three-time all-american. I'm not trying to knock his skill or ability, but simply stating that he was almost a non-factor.

Just a comment on the Messiah  announcers (and forgive me if this is not accurate):

Back in the days of audio-only (no video coverage), the two announcers committed to announcing soccer games -- men's soccer only; not women's.  They are personal friends of the program and alumni; the play-by-play guy was a great player for the Falcons, and I'm not sure if the color guy played or not.  So they did it as a favor, and their audience consisted of players' families who couldn't attend; lots of soccer alumni; some fans; and a sprinkling, of course, of parents from opposing teams.  So it was kind of an old-home broadcast with lots of acknowledging friends calling in; plenty of homerism; lots of humor and laughing; it was a good-ol'-boys effort.  And the listening audience loved it.

Fast forward now to a couple of years ago, when video streaming became available.  It wasn't only a new thing at Messiah, but it was a national phenomenon.  Now all the NCAA tournament games are broadcast, and many schools broadcast all their home games in the regular-season.  So the listening and viewing audience has dramatically changed; but the Messiah announcers haven't.  They still do the  same schtick that they've been used to, probably forgetting every time they complain about an official's call there are plenty of people seeing the same thing.

They need to understand that the audience, especially for an NCAA game, has changed.  They are no longer doing a favor for Messiah soccer fans.  They are expected to be impartial and professional and behave in ways worthy of a prominent program and positively represent the institution.

CCIW, fair enough I suppose, EXCEPT....these guys clearly are no dummies, and clearly they were aware that they were providing coverage for a NCAA sectional, meaning for 4 teams.  There was zero confusion that they were broadcasting for the entire sectional and whoever might be interested from any of the 4 teams.  Some degree of bias as the home announcers is to be expected, even cheering for your own team.  But to be derogatory and essentially slur another team and make excuses for why your world-class team is in a dogfight constitutes poor form, period.  Not mention that it also was filled with gross inaccuracies.  And the proof is in the range of people who have commented about how atrocious it was....from a primary D3soccer writer here, to a recent OWU all-american who is a bitter rival of Messiah's opponent, to the IIAC guys, to the GAC guy, and for siblings and grandparents watching and listening at home. Independent of knowing that others were having a reaction.

Quote from: NCAC New England on November 26, 2013, 12:15:44 PM
CCIW, fair enough I suppose, EXCEPT....these guys clearly are no dummies, and clearly they were aware that they were providing coverage for a NCAA sectional, meaning for 4 teams.  There was zero confusion that they were broadcasting for the entire sectional and whoever might be interested from any of the 4 teams.  Some degree of bias as the home announcers is to be expected, even cheering for your own team.  But to be derogatory and essentially slur another team and make excuses for why your world-class team is in a dogfight constitutes poor form, period.  Not mention that it also was filled with gross inaccuracies.  And the proof is in the range of people who have commented about how atrocious it was....from a primary D3soccer writer here, to a recent OWU all-american who is a bitter rival of Messiah's opponent, to the IIAC guys, to the GAC guy, and for siblings and grandparents watching and listening at home. Independent of knowing that others were having a reaction.

Hmmmm.... I'm not disagreeing with you at all and am not defending their homerism.  The broadcast style definitely needs to change, and I hope that it will.  Messiah should be classier than this.  That's all I'm saying.

Whether or not the announcers believe they're speaking to a home crowd instead of a wider audience, I would expect any voice of Messiah to be resonate with the college's mission, which certainly does not condone anything less than the Golden Rule! To the least of my brethren, etc.

Jump4Joy just nailed it.

Messiah vs the legendary NESCAC giant.  Perennial soccer national champion vs perennial Director's Cup winner.  What can we expect?  How will the game play out?

In the other game, is the Loras defense stout enough to take the initial offensive onslaught that Rutgers-C is going to throw at them?  If Loras weathers the storm, how will Rutgers-C handle handle a tie game or being down a goal into the 2nd half?

As a degenerate handicapper, I was looking at the weather...  75ish all week, then 47 and showers on Friday!

Messiah vs Williams is a crapshoot.  Who knows what could happen given the weather.   I would think Messiah should put up 2 goals regardless of weather.  Before the tournament (NESCAC) Williams only had scored 2+ goals 7 of 17 games.   However, since the tourney they have posted 2+ in all 3 games...

I will say Messiah 2, Williams 0 on a rainy day.   Messiah 3-1 if not.


Loras vs Camden is the game to watch.  Two potential POY candidates in that of Cavers from Loras and Ryan from RUC. 
Camden has only trailed for 70 minutes this year (I think).  If raining... I still give Camden a slight edge, regardless of direct play vs possession. One can argue SOS (in slight favor of Loras), but Camden just breezed through Lycoming, York, and Montclair at home.  Although shot count was close... Camden controlled 60-65% of match vs MSU, drilled a Lycoming team 4-0 whereas Messiah could only put up 2 goals in 200 min, and handled the pressure from York and put up 3 vs Messiah's goose egg.  The fact that Camden was not in Final 4 last season is irrelevant because they sniffed the final 4 in 2011 after losing the elite 8 game to Oneonta St in 2OT (Oneonta scored late in 2nd half to tie the game), and lost to York in Round of 32 in PKs in 2012.  The team is full of seniors that have tournament experience, so like Ohio Northern... this could be there chance.

Loras could not get the insurance goal vs division foe Luther and won their fate in PKs.   Handled Westminster, and fought back vs Trinity...  If Loras continues to play the long ball and pressure to win 2nd ball, I can see Camden easily sealing that off as their CBs are very reliable to win headers. 

Even if Loras scores first, I cannot see them shutting down the front 6-7 of Camden for a full 90. 

The question should be; which team makes the adjustments and who sticks to the bread-and-butter game plan that has worked all season.  My guess is that Loras will have to adjust because Camden "seems" to be the better side.

My mush opinion says Camden 2, Loras 1 in rain.   If no rain Camden 2, Loras 0.  Would not be a shock with a 1-1 result decided by PKs...

Messiah handled Montclair St. in a near downpour earlier this season 3-1, so even if the weather is bad, I would pick Messiah to wind handedly.

As for the Loras - RC match...I feel RC is going to get all they can handle from the Loras high pressure. I wouldn't be surprised with a 0-0 score at half, but as the game wears on in that second half and the RC starters are approaching 70-80 minutes, they'll slip up to a Loras starter, who at that point will only have 50-60 minutes.

Messiah 2 - Williams 0
Loras 2 - RC 0

Williams can beat Messiah.
Russo is one of the best coaches plying his trade in college.
I'm sure he hasn't been focusing too much on Thanksgiving festivities the last week or so.
Williams had a game plan for Messiah in 2012 in case they met in the final.
That plan with a few adjustments might work.
This is a battle of Champions. Williams has been to the promiseland before '95 and been close
several more years.
That being said Messiah will be tough to beat.
Both teams are brimming with confidence, the most important ingredient in football.

2-2
Williams in PKs

I like Loras, cant say why except I saw them play for about a half against Trinity and they play the right way.
Good football. Their crazy fans and alum have a good vibe about them as well and deserve one.
The game must be won on the field, if Loras falls behind again, to a final 4 team they will lose.
Loras 2-1.

Don't see a team that lost to Hamilton, at home, beating Messiah.  Williams hasn't faced any team this year, Amherst included, with anything close to the offensive firepower of Messiah, and I can't picture Williams posing much of a threat to the Messiah defense.  Will be shocked if the game is closer than 3-0 or 4-1.

I have a feeling that the ease that RC cruised through the tournament might hurt them a bit. It is always good to have a team come up against diversity at some point during the tournament. It gets their guts wrenching and makes them dig deep and show to themselves they can pull through during tough times. Now, the fact that Loras had 2 of those types of games isn't a very good thing. I feel it is going to come down to which team can score two goals first.

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2013&sub=11620

Let's see how the computer does on this using offense, defense, and SOS to predict future outcomes.   These rankings have been fairly consistent with that of d3soccer.com u


Messiah 2, Williams 1                         Messiah win expectancy is 64%

Rutgers-Camden 1, Loras 1               Camden win expectancy is 47% vs Loras 38%

                                                          Percentages so close, it's useless!  Flip a coin


Good luck to the Messiah, Williams, Loras, and Camden...  may the odds be ever in you favor!

Who wins when it is SAT scores vs. the ten commandments?

Quote from: frank uible on December 05, 2013, 07:58:12 AM
Who wins when it is SAT scores vs. the ten commandments?

The schools, they are the ones getting all the money!!

Repacking was not on my itinerary and neither was cold weather.  San Antonio forecast is high 60's all week until Friday and Saturday which is now 38 and rain both days!  We good things I am from Iowa where the Ol' saying goes; if you don't like the weather just wait 5 minutes. Looks like it is sweaters and jeans  >:(

I hope you brought an ugly christmas sweater, Kickin.   

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 06, 2013, 10:10:58 AM

I hope you brought an ugly christmas sweater, Kickin.   

always!

Well that was wild.  Camden goes up 1–0 early, Loras strikes twice with ~10 minutes left, Camden equalizes with 2 to go.  Camden wins on **wait for it** a 70 yard free kick.  Kid just launched the ball as far as he could into the mixer and it flew over everyone and into the goal.  Loras GK and defenders got nowhere near it.  Brutal way to go out.

Sick to my stomach after watching that game.  Loras gives up two soft goals to lose after coming back and being within 3 minutes of victory.  Rutgers chirpy, chippy, cocky. and constantly complaining with a bunch of D1 retreads.   Loras wanted it more and deserved that game.

Losing really sucks.

That was as heartbreaking as it gets.  I was at the match and the wind was howling at least 30 mph. That kick was trouble from the time it left his foot.  The first half was an even match, but the second half belonged to Loras no doubt.  You could see that Loras was going to take the lead and they did.  The 2nd goal from R-C was a shocker for the simple fact that it should have easily been cleared. I am still taken back by how it all went down.  I am so proud of these guys and how they played.

2nd goal did not cross the line.

Quote from: ldahoSoccer on December 06, 2013, 08:55:30 PM
2nd goal did not cross the line.

The ball was inside the mouth of the goal.

Quote from: ldahoSoccer on December 06, 2013, 08:55:30 PM
2nd goal did not cross the line.

I am pretty sure it crossed.

It looked like it did on video, just barely.

Loras took it to Camden in 2nd half, and both teams had great misses.   Camden volley in first half inches wide in first, the diving header by Loras just wide, and the header of the bar.

Very dangerous forwards that caused fits for Camden, who seemed to abandon their style in 2nd half.  You could see the game slipping away from them.   Horrible horrible way to lose.  Congrats on a wonderful season and would expect them to return to Final Four next year.

How many times is this announcer going to mention the Rutgers-Camden goal in OT. 

http://instagram.com/p/hmftXOEX4B/

Well, Williams actually was better than I thought, and yet they still were recipients of a clinic.  Maybe an early Williams goal would have made some difference, but Messiah was just dominant.  Possession had to be something like 85/15.  I tip my cap to the Messiah team and program.  There just are no weaknesses.  You squeeze the balloon in one spot and still get burned by three others.  Surrounded by Payne, Thompson, Wood and Robbins in the back I think the unsung stars are Ramirez and Kremers.  Ramirez got the first goal in just about the same spot and bit of space where he scored the Kenyon game winner.  He's excellent and often allows the other mids and forwards to get in better offensive positions.  And then as soon as you mention Ramirez and Kremers one thinks of Kovach and then Brandt off the bench.  As sort of indirectly alluded to in the Shirk semifinal analysis, the one weakness ironically seems to be almost boredom.  They appear to be knocking the ball around so comfortably that once in a while they play a loose ball or weak back pass where you could picture them giving up a goal well against the run of play.  They can perhaps almost lull themselves into complacency and almost seem stubborn at times about not just clearing a ball once in a while.  In that regard, I would be disappointed but not shocked by Rutgers-C taking advantage of that apparent complacency, and if that leads to Rutgers jumping up 2-0 then Messiah could be in some real trouble in the final.  I didn't like his extracurricular antics at all (goal scoring bit, wild gyrations about foul calls), but the Ryan kid clearly is a dangerous player who is tough to cover, doesn't need much space, and is an excellent finisher.  As a side note, except for a very animated early complaint about a foul call and then his end of the game shirt-off celebration, I thought the former D1 All-American looked pretty lackadaisical.  Maybe his efforts just didn't translate well on video.  Given one of the theories on Kenyon's relative success, it will be interesting also to see how Messiah handles the physical aggression of Rutgers who seemed intent on getting in an extra knock or clip whenever possible.  All that said, I hope Messiah rolls 5-0.  I'm expecting Messiah 3-1, although if Rutgers scores first I see Messiah winning 2-1 or perhaps 3-2.

Camden will score first.  Camden wins 2-1.   

Messiah 9-0 in title games.  Camden with the unbeaten streak.  I just feel like it's their year with how things have unfolded...

Messiah will put on another clinic. First 30 will be evenly matched, but once RC gets tired, they stop playing defense and Messiah will run all over them.

3-0 Falcons.

Would you rather........

lose this way    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv_NoNsKpow

or this way   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACWWeaD0x18

?

Rough to watch both.  That push off was worse.  More evident than the handball by Rutgers last night, a call which I would not make.  It was a fired shot in close proximity to defenders hand.   One of those... the ball played the hand, not the hand playing ball type deals.

Anyways... a clinic like the 3-0 drubbing Loras suffered in 2008 getting statistically dominated (outshot 16-4)?   That might happen considering this is Camden's first (and possibly only ever chance), but the thing is that Camden plays a style similar to Messiah.  They have a dynamic front 6, with an option for the backs to get forward.  It was near non-existent in the 2nd half because of Loras depth and ability to press forward trying to equalize.  My guess is that they will try to match up with Messiah in a 4-3-3 variation.  So we shall see just how good they are in comparison tonight.

Loras is a quality QUALITY side and will be in the hunt for years to come given their depth and extreme athleticism.  Camden has struggled vs teams that play direct, so when you package a deep lying sweeper that rarely gets beat, defenders that get stuck in well, with forwards that can break you down and spread you out, WITH a playmaker like Cavers.... Loras time will come.


I have watched Messiah for several several years.  Talking style of play and talent, Camden is right there with them.  Quite hard to argue against that, given this unbeaten run vs tough opponents (just no hardware to show for it yet...)  As you mentioned before about getting tired... that's where Messiah's edge is.  Just a matter of Camden being able to break down Messiah first and not having to chase the game.


If Camden scores first, which I believe they do... around the 25th min.... 2-1 FINAL

If Messiah scores first, I would expect they go up 2-0... Camden scores to make it 2-1, then Messiah adds the insurance goal.  3-1 FINAL

Interesting.  I watched both games back to back.  Never crossed my mind that Rutgers-C's style of play bore any resemblance to Messiah.  In fact, I thought Loras played more possession than Rutgers and Cavers is the player one can most see fitting in seamlessly with the Messiah group.  Rutgers no doubt is a great D3 college team, but I found their style of play quite cynical.  We'll see if they look anything like Messiah in a couple of hours head-to-head.

No problem, NCAC.   Camden did not play typical possession style after the 30th min.  Was all downhill from there sorting out Loras' talent.

We shall see tonight!  How do you think it will play out.... I'm guessing you think the 3-1 Messiah range. 

See my post on prior page that begins "Well, Williams...."  My predictions are contained therein.

Curious to see to what degree Rutger's behavior implodes if they go down another goal or two.  Vicious tackle around the 10th minute on Payne and still never missing an opportunity to get in an extra knock and losing composure every time a Messiah player is fouled or falls down.  Balle pointing in the ref's face again.  Couple of chances for Camden due to previously described loose plays, including really bad one by Robbins, but otherwise Camden can barely get in the Messiah end.  Possession easily 75/25 Messiah.

Total domination by Messiah eventually results in another title.  Been playing/watching DIII soccer since 1974, and that does not look like a DIII team . . .

Congrats to Rutgers for a tough fought game tonight, but Messiah just too strong in their 2-1 2OT victory in San Antonio TX
Messiah........ just an incredible D-III soccer team...deserve all the credit for ANOTHER outstanding season 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Quote from: Colbyunion on December 07, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
Total domination by Messiah eventually results in another title.  Been playing/watching DIII soccer since 1974, and that does not look like a DIII team . . .

so true, would give a lot of D-I teams trouble!!!!!

Credit to Rutgers-C.  They came out and played soccer in the 2nd half and just focused on competing instead of complaining or roughhousing.  Actually thought they would win in OT.  Messiah GK doesn't inspire ton of confidence and Robbins finally got burned for one too many loose plays.  Thompson was really, really off tonight.  Must have lost the ball at least 15 times. 

For the Messiah fans out there, how do they only win games against Lebanon Valley, Alvernia, etc 3-1 or 4-1?  Seems like they should win almost all of those games by 6-8 goals even allowing for very liberal subbing and appropriate sportsmanship.

Somebody at D3 soccer confused.  Not 3 in a row for Messiah.  And they didn't bow out in 2010.  It was 2011, 2 years ago, when OWU won.

Messiah still just on that other level!  Incredibly organized.   Congrats to the Falcons on a great season and another star to the crest.  And congrats on the historic season for a team from the ghetto... 

Crazy that the deflection goals were almost identical.   There were only small stints where Camden looked dangerous... and their chippiness led to loss of momentum after the equalizer.   Once they went with two forwards and made adjustments to possess the ball, I thought they had a chance.

Anytime JThompson got the ball... had to just hold my damn breath.

Great work by Kovach on that last goal to keep the ball in, and then sick bangu from Wood to Payne. 

See ya'll next year!

NSCAA
Josh Wood your POY. 
Tim Oswald your COY. 

D3soccer.com
Mike Ryan Forward of the Year    (wishful thinking that he gets it over Wood)
Jeremy Payne Midfielder of the Year
Dan Figura Defender of the Year
Malick Faye  GK of the Year
Brad McCarty your COY

MVP for the whole NCAA tournament has got to be Ramirez.

Because he has the knowledge to place the ball off the defender geometrically, and score goals, NCAC!  The commentator was brutal all three games ahah!  My worddd.

Grotti was a tale of two different games for Rutgers-Camden.  Much better today vs Messiah.  Thought he was going to bag a winner in the OT.

Lastguy, agree on Grotti.  And Ryan not much of factor tonight.

BTW, not much solace for rest of D3 world.  Messiah returns 7 of 11 starters, including Payne, Thompson, Ramirez, Kovach, Robbins, Kyne, West, as well as Brandt, other primary subs, and then I'm sure a new stellar frosh class.

After watching the replay, Randall was incredibly close to stopping both goals.  Welp, with Messiah getting 7 of 11 back, expect them to lose to Neumann in the round of 32 next season.

Been pretty reserved in my comments about the final four, but just need to share a few observations.  First off I am extremely proud of Loras for their on field accomplishments and even more proud of how the handled themselves as players and young men.  2nd I want to give a sincere congratulations to Messiah for the a 10th National title.  I spoke to 2 of their players early this morning at the airport amd I am od the opinion that this win means just as much to them as any other of their titles.  Messiah is an all around class act.  Lastly I would like to comment on complete and utter disgust I have with Rutgers- camden,  they are from top to bottom the most classless and ugly team I have witnessed in 32 years of watching soccer matches.  The way these hids acted on and off the field is an embarrassment to DIII soccer and their school.   This kind of crap that they displayed has no place in sport and is a reflection of the lack of discipline by the coaching staff and parents of these players who choose to attend and watching their kids act innsuch aj immature amd foolish manor.

Kickin, agree 100% with everything you wrote.  Really wish we could have seen a Messiah-Loras final.  I'm pretty sure Messiah would have won, but Loras competed the right way.  Hardly anybody besides the Messiah fan-base wants to see the same school win every year, but the Rutgers behavior was bad enough to swing almost any neutral heavily into Messiah's favor. 

I admit finding the super-religious angle foreign with Messiah, Wheaton, Calvin, etc, but I do believe the Messiah program handles itself consistent with their values.  It's hard to root against guys whose life-goal is doing missions with impoverished kids in Southeast Asia.  Bottom line is Messiah is a class act, up to and including the coach.  The players showed great composure last night and after seeing many of these teams live and via streaming there is no question that Messiah was the best team.  And they have to be favored to win again next year.  In hindsight I do wish we could have seen them play OWU, the other team that actually does play the closest to Messiah style-wise.  We didn't get to see that match-up in 2011 or 2013.

I am curious about why so many D1 players ended up as transfers to Rutgers-C, especially the ones who were actually playing D1.  There must be some backstory about why an All-American playing for a team qualifying for the NCAA tournament ends up at a D3 like Rutgers.

The Messiah College write-up of the game is quite good with quotes specifically about the Rutgers behavior from both coaches.  [That write-up also very honest about Messiah miscues by specific players.]  The Rutgers coach rationalized by referencing how gritty the NJAC is in general.  I can buy that to a degree.  But he also rationalized by saying there were no red cards.  Really???  The behavior of a team -- excluding rare, individual incidents as opposed to constant, game-long poor form -- begins and ends with the coach.

Biggest upset of the year?  Payne not making the all-tournament team for the Final Four. 

Great season.  Great job by D3soccer.com.  Already looking forward to next year.

P.S. Would have liked to see SLU in the final four too.  If Amherst is going to lose in the Elite 8 every year, then at least Williams should have to beat someone besides Amherst to make it.

I guess I'll have to comment now

Yeah, anyone that has scored a goal in an important moment and does a so called cocky celebration is totally classless, referring to Ryan and to Balle.  I guess that Jeremy Payne is also a total JERK for taking his shirt off after scoring the game winner in the national final. (SARCASM).

Define IRONY;  Bunch of guys (possibly children) complaining about an organization being classless while TOTALLY bashing everything possible about them.

I understand the bitterness after now being 0-4 on the goal win the title, but this is just stupid, guys.  Lenke threw in a couple cheap shots, as well as some of your other players.  Yeah, Camden is so darn cheap and dirty that they had 2 more fouls than Messiah 16-14... a few of which were junk calls in the final 10 minutes of regulation. 


Anyways, two excellent teams made it to the FINAL FOUR.  They are to be congratulated, not bashed.  2013 is over... Time to move on and good luck in 2014



HAPPY HOLIDAYS...

Oh My Gosh!  Everton guy just scored a big equalizing goal... went to the corner flag and did a machine gun motion.   He's classless.

can someone point me to the All-Tournament player list?

Quote from: cacattack on December 08, 2013, 12:46:21 PM
can someone point me to the All-Tournament player list?

All-Tournament Team
Kevin Cavers, Loras
Johnny Rummerhart, Loras
Geoff Danilack, Williams
Mohammed Rashid, Williams
Taylor McGrory, Rutgers-Camden – Most Outstanding Defensive Player
Mitch Grotti, Rutgers-Camden
Mike Ryan, Rutgers-Camden
Joe Auleta, Rugers-Camden
Jack Thompson, Messiah – Most Outstanding Offensive Player
Brian Ramirez, Messiah
Sheldon Myer, Messiah
Carter Robbins, Messiah

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 08, 2013, 11:34:34 AM
I guess I'll have to comment now

Yeah, anyone that has scored a goal in an important moment and does a so called cocky celebration is totally classless, referring to Ryan and to Balle.  I guess that Jeremy Payne is also a total JERK for taking his shirt off after scoring the game winner in the national final. (SARCASM).

Define IRONY;  Bunch of guys (possibly children) complaining about an organization being classless while TOTALLY bashing everything possible about them.

I understand the bitterness after now being 0-4 on the goal win the title, but this is just stupid, guys.  Lenke threw in a couple cheap shots, as well as some of your other players.  Yeah, Camden is so darn cheap and dirty that they had 2 more fouls than Messiah 16-14... a few of which were junk calls in the final 10 minutes of regulation. 


Anyways, two excellent teams made it to the FINAL FOUR.  They are to be congratulated, not bashed.  2013 is over... Time to move on and good luck in 2014



HAPPY HOLIDAYS...

Were you there? I was and saw and heard everything that was said and done. This has absolutely zero to do with winning and losing,  maybe someday you 4 will grow up and see what they did was above and beyond any game or record. They didn't just run out of their way to run straight across their opponents bench, that's juvenile,  but when you yell F---you with your middle finger up that is classless.  I suppose camden's coach actually telling them to screw the fact that Messiah's  player put the ball out if play forcsn injured camden player and directed him to throw throw it deep into the box, that is classless,  I heard hin with my iwn ears.  Fouls aren't even the realm of what I am speaking to.  They were floppers and hackers that were swearing at the officials and the opposing players non stop. It was a disgrace.  I was there it hear it live not from a computer screen. You can try and defend them all you want but you dead wrong. They are classless hacks.

Quote from: KICKIN95 on December 08, 2013, 01:48:22 PMThey were floppers and hackers that were swearing at the officials and the opposing players non stop. It was a disgrace.  I was there it hear it live not from a computer screen. You can try and defend them all you want but you dead wrong. They are classless hacks.

Please KICKIN95 you have to understand, they are typical residents of The Garden State.  and yes, I can make this comment because of was at the games ,  can attest to the accuracy of KICKIN's comments AND I was born and lived in NJ until I sprung myself after college. 

Messiah is an example of a class act, R-C could go a long way to learn sportsmanship from them...

You sound like a child who did not get what he wanted for Christmas.  Just for the record, you have now called out both Trinity AND Camden...  oh and Middlebury a few years back.

What will be the lucky program in 2014 that gets the rant?   Just let it go already.  Loras has a quality side, and will get their chance.


And yes, Worm.   There is no program out there with more class than the Falcons.  They are top notch.

And for the record.  No, I was not at the game... but in watching the game with 10 other people regarding that throw in during the first OT.

From the perception of the computer screen, the player down was not visible.  It looked as if Messiah player knocked it out under slight pressure, not as a precaution for the injury.  So in trying to win a national title, all of us watching said.... "no, don't throw it back to 'em"

As to the All-Tournament selections, they basically have a predetermined amount of spots for the champion, runner-up, and two semifinalists.  And as I understand it they tell each coach how many spots his team gets and each coach says which of his players should be honored.  And I think I've heard of coaches even letting the team itself decide who to give the honors to.  And it's not unusual for a senior player to get picked instead of a younger teammate as a last chance to recognize a graduating player.  Now, that wouldn't explain Figura being let out, but could explain Payne's absence. 

last guy, I am a neutral and to clarify my position, I didn't have a problem with Balle's game-ending celebration.  I didn't like Ryan's and I liked Ryan's less as his antics the rest of the match confirmed my reaction on his goal celebration.  And Balle showed poor form throughout both games sticking his finger in the ref's face multiple times in both games.  They got in extra knocks at every opportunity.  The got in the face of Messiah players who were down telling them to get up (not in the final minutes where you would be worried about time wasting but in the 1st 30 minutes).  To their credit, perhaps because of a good halftime speech from the coach, Camden mostly just tried to play good soccer in the 2nd half and almost won as a result. And the Messiah player didn't kick the ball out because of pressure.  How often do you see a Messiah player do that?  He clearly stopped and then afterwards was looking at the ref and Camden to acknowledge what he did.  I thought he was way too generous in kicking it out so it was his mistake but Camden certainly didn't acknowledge his attempt at sportsmanship and were more than happy to accept a dangerous free kick or throw out of it.  Also, I shared my reactions before seeing anyone here say a word.  Obviously the behavior of Camden was noticeable to more than just a couple of us.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 08, 2013, 02:23:42 PM

And for the record.  No, I was not at the game... but in watching the game with 10 other people regarding that throw in during the first OT.

From the perception of the computer screen, the player down was not visible.  It looked as if Messiah player knocked it out under slight pressure, not as a precaution for the injury.  So in trying to win a national title, all of us watching said.... "no, don't throw it back to 'em"

I guess you just don't get it. It's not about who won,  it's about their moral compass and direct reflection of the coaches who allow that behavior.  You hit 2 nails on your statement about the throw in, you didn't see the r-c player who was down and you obviously knew that Messiah's purpose was to stop play for a downed player and evrn knowing that would still choose to take the throw in because "the game is on the line" You just showed the extent of you knowledge of the game and the direction your personal moral compass points.  Birds of a feather!

I guess my moral compass is messed up, but how is yours these days?

Moral compass?  Is that your play here?  Is it right or wrong to belittle, or blatantly call out a program, players, or staff though on multiple occasions.  Birds of a feather!  Since Camden is so wrong in everything they do, why do you feel that is acceptable to display it on a public forum.  The right thing to do would be to keep your fingers off the keyboard.

I know some of the staff/team, as I have mentioned before.   During the banquet, there was a video clip of Loras doing that celebration with the ever so not clever "Kayaking or Rowing" whatever you want to call it, NCAC.  In that case, I am sorry, but I think that makes it funnier (what you would call cocky) move by Mike Ryan. 

Again, my moral compass is totally screwed up.

So he was getting back at or taunting Loras with his display?  The banquet?  You mean last night, or a year ago?  Why was Camden doing video of Loras at their banquet?  Like I said, my impressions of Ryan, Balle, and 3 or 4 others was formed over two full games.  After 4 hours of jawing, smirking, taunting, fouling unnecessarily, etc, one can get an impression.  Like I said, they mostly focused on playing good, hard soccer in the 2nd half and were rewarded getting the game into OT.  They had a phenomenal season.  A season to remember.  But THEY are responsible for the impressions they make...not us here with our keyboards.  There is a difference between pride and punk.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 08, 2013, 03:37:22 PM
I guess my moral compass is messed up, but how is yours these days?

Moral compass?  Is that your play here?  Is it right or wrong to belittle, or blatantly call out a program, players, or staff though on multiple occasions.  Birds of a feather!  Since Camden is so wrong in everything they do, why do you feel that is acceptable to display it on a public forum.  The right thing to do would be to keep your fingers off the keyboard.

For the very fact that it is a public forum and the team displayed themselves in a very public fashion. I didn't ever be little them they did a fine job of that on there own. 
So now you are a judge of goal celebrations?  There was a meaning behind it when Loras did it and again I'm sure not checking with you first must have slipped their minds.
Listen closely son, this team exposed itself to many fans, parents, coaches from quite a few teams not to mention ncaa committee members.  My opinion is a consensus not a lone presumption,  your excuses have worn themselves out. 

I love how Balle celebrated his goal as if he was specifically aiming for the upper 9 of the goal from 75 yards away.  Celebrations are a great part of the game, and everyone loves to do them but do them as you DESERVE them.  I was sitting on the sideline of the game and the words/actions coming from Mike "two first names" Ryan were embarrassing.  There was one point where he gave the finger to a fan, maybe his play wouldn't of suffered so much if he was paying attention to the game he was in and not about giving fans harassment back. 

I'm glad Messiah won, but come on.  DIII Soccer need to come together and beat this monopoly of a program.  Loras will be back within 2 years.  They had a great freshman class come in this year and almost all of them saw playing time in the semi final.  Experience is huge when it comes to these games and the team that has the most composure will gain the upper hand.  R-C put away their chances and Loras struggled to keep the ball on target.  If these two teams meet again, which I hope they do...

Loras... 2
Rutgers-Camden....-1

Guys,

I am not a censor, but I did delete a post that specifically referred to certain Rutgers-Camden players and personal issues. That's off-base in this forum. And I do wish that I could edit some of the previous posts...but of course, I won't. However, I do think that the artful use of the English language by you guys has become too accusatory.

Look, R-C had a shot at something they have never had before; thus they played hard and they played to the edge. And in some cases, the players let their emotions get the best of them. Stuff like this happens, and in most cases, has happened to all of our programs at some point in the past. And we never like it when it is called out. These are college-aged athletes who are competing for a national title, and so emotions will always be present...and the results of any of these behaviors will become tomorrow's learning experiences. Assessing player performance has always been part of the D3Board experience, but we all need to throttle down the comments lest we become too emotional ourselves - and create a bad example for others (this is a more serious issue for me).

Messiah has played at this level for years, and has certain flexibility in creating a team that a public school doesn't have. The make-up of the team, and thus the culture of the team will be unique in comparison. And let's face it, the NJAC is a tough league in which to play. No one can dispute that. Out here in the CCIW, things are always competitive, but different parts of the country have different levels of intensity, and it has been that way for decades. My point? Let's cut the new guys to the party some slack.

I am not excusing any kind of behavior that is unsportsmanlike, or mean-spirited. But I do believe that the quality of person writing on these Boards allows for the ability to provide critical comments without crossing the (undefined) line of good taste and professional maturity.

These are my personal comments, so have at me if you think I am wrong. But I do ask that you respect my requests for how we write what we write.

I am a Williams parent and wasn't at the Championship game, so I can't comment on the events there. I can only say this - when Messiah thoroughly beat us, we never got chippy, crass or belligerent. We faught until the final second and lost with dignity. And Messiah, knowing that they had outclassed us, could have been poor winners  but they were not. They won with class and celebrated their win without rubbing our noses in it. I am as impressed with the class of their program as I am proud of the character of ours.
Congrats to all of the seniors who had the honor of playing their final match in the NCAA Final Four. Enjoy it while you can because next year, the competition gets really tough.

Hiker Jim:

You are, of course, correct.  Posters would be well-advised to think twice before posting any adversarial response.  Often, the best response is none at all.  None of us are going to win any arguments in this forum.

Hiker Jim, I appreciate your post and I agree with your decision to delete that particular post. You make good points.  I struggled with exactly what I wanted to write and in what style.  And of course some of the ratcheting up occurs when there is a defense to the initial reactions.  And then I see yet another poster, on another thread today, quite independently because he (GarbageGoals) has shown himself to be far from pro-Loras, feel compelled to comment about Rutgers-C.  Can we give them a break?  Sure.  But is it important that A LOT of folks, and not just fans of Loras who could be painted as sore losers, viewed the overall behavior of Camden and particular antics of particular players problematic?  My guess is that they could care less.  I hope that's not true.  Someone there needs to understand that they should take a look at their behavior.  If they are going to continue coming "to the party" do we have a right to expect some improvement?  Or do we just let it ride because the NJAC is so tough and "gritty"?  And if you are new to the party, is there any value in leaving a good or at least neutral impression of your school and team?

Jim, curious by what you mean when you write Messiah "has certain flexibility in creating a team that a public school doesn't have"

KnightFalcon,

Perhaps HikerJim simply meant flexibility in the sense that Messiah has established itself as national powerhouse athletically, ON TOP of it's academic focus and spiritual growth.  Messiah has always been top-class...  The philosophy of the college/athletic programs builds character and emphasizes teamwork.  There is a reason why these talented athletes choose Messiah over D1 programs...

Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
Hiker Jim, I appreciate your post and I agree with your decision to delete that particular post. You make good points.  I struggled with exactly what I wanted to write and in what style.  And of course some of the ratcheting up occurs when there is a defense to the initial reactions.  And then I see yet another poster, on another thread today, quite independently because he (GarbageGoals) has shown himself to be far from pro-Loras, feel compelled to comment about Rutgers-C.  Can we give them a break?  Sure.  But is it important that A LOT of folks, and not just fans of Loras who could be painted as sore losers, viewed the overall behavior of Camden and particular antics of particular players problematic?  My guess is that they could care less.  I hope that's not true.  Someone there needs to understand that they should take a look at their behavior.  If they are going to continue coming "to the party" do we have a right to expect some improvement?  Or do we just let it ride because the NJAC is so tough and "gritty"?  And if you are new to the party, is there any value in leaving a good or at least neutral impression of your school and team?

NCAC, there is a difference between being frustrated and a sore loser.  I am no representative of Camden, nor do I have ties to the university itself.  I do, however, have friend(s) that I know in the organization that work tremendously hard to make them a competitive program (that are not even full-time employees).  I was not present for the Final Four, but will still stick up for them regardless of actions.  In regards to Camden's future, you may not have to worry about them as I mentioned previously... they are losing way too much to possibly be in that spectrum of final 4 status again;  Losing a GK, 3 defenders, 1 CDM, and a most likely 2nd team All-American attacking mid.  They are similar to the Ohio Northern squad that made the final in 2012 (that lost 7 or 8 seniors).  The only difference is that the NJAC is too deep, or rather, too unpredictable and too gritty.  Any dark horse in the state-school market of NJ can make a run  (Camden could very well finish as low as 4th in 5th in conference next season).  There is a reason why Camden has been the 6th school in a 10 team conference has made it to the Final Four in the last 15 years... probably more than any other conference in the nation.

While some/most people are against the style of play, it still should not excuse the behavior...  Maybe if they ever get back to the elite class of final 4 it will be different, but until then... move on.   2014 season will be among us before you know it.

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 10, 2013, 02:51:48 AM

Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
Hiker Jim, I appreciate your post and I agree with your decision to delete that particular post. You make good points.  I struggled with exactly what I wanted to write and in what style.  And of course some of the ratcheting up occurs when there is a defense to the initial reactions.  And then I see yet another poster, on another thread today, quite independently because he (GarbageGoals) has shown himself to be far from pro-Loras, feel compelled to comment about Rutgers-C.  Can we give them a break?  Sure.  But is it important that A LOT of folks, and not just fans of Loras who could be painted as sore losers, viewed the overall behavior of Camden and particular antics of particular players problematic?  My guess is that they could care less.  I hope that's not true.  Someone there needs to understand that they should take a look at their behavior.  If they are going to continue coming "to the party" do we have a right to expect some improvement?  Or do we just let it ride because the NJAC is so tough and "gritty"?  And if you are new to the party, is there any value in leaving a good or at least neutral impression of your school and team?

NCAC, there is a difference between being frustrated and a sore loser.  I am no representative of Camden, nor do I have ties to the university itself.  I do, however, have friend(s) that I know in the organization that work tremendously hard to make them a competitive program (that are not even full-time employees).  I was not present for the Final Four, but will still stick up for them regardless of actions.  In regards to Camden's future, you may not have to worry about them as I mentioned previously... they are losing way too much to possibly be in that spectrum of final 4 status again;  Losing a GK, 3 defenders, 1 CDM, and a most likely 2nd team All-American attacking mid.  They are similar to the Ohio Northern squad that made the final in 2012 (that lost 7 or 8 seniors).  The only difference is that the NJAC is too deep, or rather, too unpredictable and too gritty.  Any dark horse in the state-school market of NJ can make a run  (Camden could very well finish as low as 4th in 5th in conference next season).  There is a reason why Camden has been the 6th school in a 10 team conference has made it to the Final Four in the last 15 years... probably more than any other conference in the nation.

While some/most people are against the style of play, it still should not excuse the behavior...  Maybe if they ever get back to the elite class of final 4 it will be different, but until then... move on.   2014 season will be among us before you know it.

It's painfully obvious to me know that you just aren't capable of understanding anything beyond wins and losses.  It really is sad that you think I am being a "Sore Loser".  I have mentioned several times that this went way beyond a "W" or "L", but you would rather hang on to that as your one and only justification of my actions.  I guess if that is what makes it better in your head than so be it, I just hope when you wake up one day and realize that sports aren't just about winning you can have another "AHA" moment about character and class in sports and realize where I am coming from.

Long time reader of the boards, first time poster.

I'm with Jim, I don't think until you're in the same position as these kids competing for a national championship at the final four can you begin to pass judgement on any certain one team's behavior. Almost every year there is one team that angers the other more reputable programs who are making return trips to the final 4. In my opinion, it's because it's the "new kids" first time there and they have wide eyes to the experience and may not know how to handle situations that call for cooler heads to prevail because they've never been in the situation before. A lot of times in those situations you expect the coaches to regulate their players actions and reactions but in the case of R-C, their coaching staff had never been there either, so even they were experiencing it for the first time. Give the benefit of the doubt to the newcomers, they have their feet wet now, if it happened again with the same group of players, then let the prosecuting begin!

Long story short, it's only natural for the newcomers to "step on the toes" of the teams who have been there and done it before. The older teams want respect from the new teams and if they don't get it they get agitated. But remember that at some point, your program was the new kid on the block at the final 4 and most likely was the team that people were talking about as arrogant and classless.

Side note: nice to see the Duhawk Futbol twitter account commending Messiah on a championship season while mentioning what a classy program they are, as well as seeing Messiah reciprocate the compliment back to Loras. It was only last year where I was hearing stories about the bad blood from the final 4 game so it was cool to see the respect these programs have for one another.

Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 10, 2013, 09:29:37 AM


Side note: nice to see the Duhawk Futbol twitter account commending Messiah on a championship season while mentioning what a classy program they are, as well as seeing Messiah reciprocate the compliment back to Loras. It was only last year where I was hearing stories about the bad blood from the final 4 game so it was cool to see the respect these programs have for one another.

+1

It looks like Rothert played every single player in the R-C match?  That must be a first for a final four game.

Where is the NSCAA final ranking?

The final D3soccer poll looks pretty good to me.  Maybe OWU, and Stevens, overly punished?  #6 seems a little high for Montclair.  #11 seems very generous for F&M

Quote from: NCAC New England on December 10, 2013, 01:54:41 PM
Where is the NSCAA final ranking?

The final D3soccer poll looks pretty good to me.  Maybe OWU, and Stevens, overly punished?  #6 seems a little high for Montclair.  #11 seems very generous for F&M

http://www.nscaatv.com/rankings/2989/NCAADivisionIII/men/National/LastPoll

Thanks for the comments on my post. I didn't expect everyone to agree, but simply that it would deb read and considered.

My comment about Messiah and their situation with admissions is about the fact that Messiah is a private school and R-C is a public school. There are differences. I did not intend to imply anything about the quality of the schools or the actual soccer programs.

I also enjoyed the Tweet from Loras. Very classy, and reflective of a program that continues to grow and play at a very competitive level.

With respect to the classy/classless tension, your correspondent, like Kipling, admires those who treat the impostors of Triumph and Disaster just the same.

Without trying to get political or religious, there is something more than Messiah being private.  Messiah, Wheaton (Ill), Calvin, Hope, and now apparently Gordon (with a stellar year and a big-time coach) all have top-tier soccer programs.  At first glance one might think the pool these programs recruit from is fairly restrictive, and that might still be true, but they also can often land a higher level of player, with greater frequency, than other D3 programs (which is different than becoming known as a landing spot for D1 transfers).

On another note, any disputing that the top 3 D3 programs currently, in order, are Messiah, Loras, OWU?  Next year will be an interesting one for OWU.  They lose a bunch of seniors who were starters and primary subs with starter minutes.  On the other hand, they have some outstanding talent returning and I'm sure Martin never leaves the cupboard bare.  And then there are teams like Tufts, who were on the radar and sort of moved off, who return almost everyone.

NCAC,

Concur on the top 3. 

Trinity, Amherst as your historic powerhouses. 

Stevens Tech, Wheaton, Williams, Camden, Montclair State... MSU has made it to Elite 8 twice and Final 4 in the last 3 seasons, but has only been to the NJAC Final once during that span (lost to Camden in 2011).

http://www.phillysoccerpage.net/2013/12/12/messiah-forward-josh-wood-named-nscaa-division-iii-mens-soccer-poy/

NCAC....

Good topic for discussion. Messiah is on another level clearly.

Then you have to ask yourself how you measure success to rate the next few. Loras has been to 4 final 4's since 2007 which is 2nd only to Messiah which is remarkable. Williams has actually been to 3 since 2009 as well but I don't think anyone measures them in the same talks as your Messiah's, Wheaton's, Loras', OWU's, etc.

OWU has been to 2 final fours since 2006. Excluding the 2 less final 4 appearances, the only thing OWU has on Loras (excluding regular season records) in that same time span is a National Title.

Messiah, Wheaton, Trinity, and OWU I think are historically the top 4 programs, but with early tournament exits peppering Wheaton, Trinity, and OWU over the last decade or so, programs like Loras are starting to chip away and etch their name at the top of the list.

Currently it's hard to disagree with your order.

I think once Loras get the monkey off their back in the Final 4 game they will raise a trophy. I see they return a lot of talent so they should be fun to watch again.

Side note: All-americans came out today. And before the Loras faithful can jump at it, I will jump at it for them. Pretty ridiculous that Loras only got 1 all-american in Cavers. He's a first team talent as well. Figura should be on there. I've particularly been impressed with Fluegel as their season wore on also.

As a Stevens grad and commentator, I think we're definitely up there but unfortunately many times you see the difficulty of playing in a weaker schedule with respect to tournament time.  It will never happen, but I'd love to see us join the NJAC because we need that competition.  They do a good job of nonconference scheduling, but it only goes so far.

On a different thread, I wasn't sure I wanted to post this throughout the tournament but I'm going to put it in here for thought now because unfortunately my point was very well founded in the Messiah-Williams result.  How much longer can we continue to overrate the NESCAC, and by result, the New England region as a whole, while they continue to play a restricted schedule that rarely sees them engage challenging non-conference opponents?  We seem to have this theory that "The NESCAC plays extremely high quality football," yet many examples I remember from my college days and watching now post-graduation I remember a very obnoxious rough and tumble, old English-style game that simply tries to physically bully teams out of games.  Messiah badly outclassed them, and rightfully so.  Yet Williams, due to this respect, was given a pod host right with a 6 loss record.

Consider in the Mid-Atlantic Quadrant you had a pod setup that could have pitted 2 regional #1s and two Coaches top 5 teams together (regardless of the value you put in that ranking system) in the Sweet 16 (#4 RU-Camden and #5 Stevens) and also includes the South Atlantic #4/NSCAA #16 York PA Spartans.  One of Stevens and York will be going home in the Round of 32.  On the opposite side of that very same bracket, you have two regional #2s (Carnegie Mellon and Montclair State) potentially facing off in a Round of 32 game, and another regional #2 (Rochester) potentially awaiting a round later.  Already a pretty imbalanced bracket just looking within that group of 15.   Conversely, in the New England bracket, there was an Elite 8 appearance guaranteed for a team with a MINIMUM of 5 blemishes (That would have been #2 New England Brandeis, who lost to Williams), and St. Lawrence was able to storm through a pod scoring 13 goals. 

I understand that I will be seen as biased using Stevens as a example point, and I understand that the NCAA at the D3 level is trying to keep travel costs down.  But I'd much rather see them plane some teams around to balance the bracket, because to me you simply can't have a bracket with 1 regional #1 and 2 regional #2s where another bracket has 2 regional #1s, 3 regional #2s, and a regional #4 who would likely be a #2 in basically any other region (York).  Additionally, it's not just this season.  Amherst and Williams have met in the Northeast Quadrant Elite 8 match each of the last 2 years, having had to dispatch only St. Lawrence outside of region.  In 2011, no NESCAC team (out of 3) made it out of the Sweet 16, each losing to a New Jersey or in-region team (RU-C, SIT, Babson).  In 2010, again it was Amherst ousting St. Lawrence to meet Bowdoin, with Williams eliminated by Babson and Middlebury getting through William Paterson before falling to Bowdoin.  Of course, when you look to the final 4 matchup, the NESCAC team falls to the side considered the rank outsiders.  2010 saw Bowdoin fall to Lynchburg, 2012 saw Williams fall to Ohio Northern (who then lost to Messiah 5-1) conceding 3 goals.  Yes, one-offs are difficult for the purpose of statistical assessment, but we're building a trend of results and occurrences here.  At what point does the NCAA D3 soccer committee either have to start putting the pressure on NESCAC schools to play a larger non-conference schedule or simply start ranking them lower?

Apparently editing posts isn't allowed on the boards, so just a couple final pieces on this:

It's great to have parity.  The NJAC has parity, so too the UAA.  Yet the NJAC teams have historically and presently been very successful.  Surely you have to consider them the best conference, particularly based on consistency of tournament performance against spread of opposition and travel.  But there can be a problem with parity.  If you all play each other and beat each other up but don't really beat too much quality outside your group, it doesn't give much indication as to your overall talent level.  A great example of this is the Mountain West's RPI in D1 basketball.  They constantly have a conference RPI that people question as too high.  But they schedule aggressively out of conference and play high level games in conference.  Yet typically they underperform in the tournament.  One has to surmise that their conference level is lower than tournament teams they come up against, and this in my view is the case with the NESCAC.

On the travel side -- I remember the mid-2000s where NYU had established themselves as a force despite not necessarily posting a great overall record.  Heck, we (Stevens) ran into their buzzsaw a couple times in my college years.  Part of their advantage surely has to be attributed to location.  Part of why a side like Emory struggled in the tournament I definitely believe is the travel, so I can understand that keeping plane trips to a minimum is preferred.  But I also believe in an opposition spread.  An Amherst-Williams or other all-NESCAC elite 8 isn't necessarily a good thing for D3 soccer.

Calvin should probably be in that elite historical group as well.

I agree about seedings and distribution of teams.  No way Stevens and York should have been a round of 32 game.  There were other similar examples as well.  And then take Kenyon, which had to go through defending runnerup Ohio Northern, a highly rated Wheaton team that hadn't lost in 2 months on Wheaton home field, only to meet Messiah, and in theory, with a win, a date with OWU...before ever getting to the final four. 

I also wonder about the home fields at the sweet sixteen level.  What a huge advantage (except in case of Amherst, but still...), and maybe there should be more neutral sites once we get to sweet sixteen.

Agree Stevens guy.  And actually mixing up the New England and NJ/PA schools more ith also schools like SLU and Rochester in the mix would be a service to the NESCAC.  If the NESCAC is really good then by moving the teams the NESCAC conceivably could get 2 teams in the final four.

Joshua Wood is a great story.  Incredible dedication to come back to the level he did after two season ending injuries in a row.  I watched the Messiah players very closely and I never saw Wood complain or showboat or doing anything than play hard.

I mistakenly left off Stevens as another program that I think is coming on strong in the Division III soccer world. Making an appearance in the 2008 title game only to fall in PK's to Messiah....correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you guys beat Amherst pretty good in that final 4 game?

I'm with you on all your views of the NESCAC. Their schedule is frustrating because none of the better teams travel out of region to play any other good programs. And I hate the fact that most years, due to the scheduling, one NESCAC team will be in the final 4. Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's a walk in the park for that team to get there and I'm in no way taking away from the fact that it's difficult to win tournament games, let alone 4 of them. But I REALLY wish that NESCAC teams would be thrown into different pods, if for no other reason, to see how they fare against other conferences. I'd like to see Amherst or Williams travel to play a good program out of region.


And NCAC, I was just typing out that Calvin should be included as well. Historically but also recently. Despite missing the tournament this year (and playing one of the hardest non-conference schedules in the country), from 2009-2011 they had 2 appearances in the National Championship game (most besides Messiah in same time-frame) and the other year was a loss in PK's in the elite 8.

You're right on ... that final 4 match was a 4-0 result.  Amherst were pretty thoroughly throttled :D

Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 13, 2013, 11:54:25 AM
NCAC....

Good topic for discussion. Messiah is on another level clearly.

Then you have to ask yourself how you measure success to rate the next few. Loras has been to 4 final 4's since 2007 which is 2nd only to Messiah which is remarkable. Williams has actually been to 3 since 2009 as well but I don't think anyone measures them in the same talks as your Messiah's, Wheaton's, Loras', OWU's, etc.

OWU has been to 2 final fours since 2006. Excluding the 2 less final 4 appearances, the only thing OWU has on Loras (excluding regular season records) in that same time span is a National Title.

Messiah, Wheaton, Trinity, and OWU I think are historically the top 4 programs, but with early tournament exits peppering Wheaton, Trinity, and OWU over the last decade or so, programs like Loras are starting to chip away and etch their name at the top of the list.

Currently it's hard to disagree with your order.

I think once Loras get the monkey off their back in the Final 4 game they will raise a trophy. I see they return a lot of talent so they should be fun to watch again.

Side note: All-americans came out today. And before the Loras faithful can jump at it, I will jump at it for them. Pretty ridiculous that Loras only got 1 all-american in Cavers. He's a first team talent as well. Figura should be on there. I've particularly been impressed with Fluegel as their season wore on also.

Completely baffled by the All-American selections. Granted, Cavers did not have the numbers that he did in 2012, but his impact on the pitch is matched by few. Are these selections based primarily on statistics? If so, Fluegel, who had similar numbers to Cavers in 2012 (8G-5A) was left off.

Loras could very well be feeling the effect of being 25+ deep. This results in fewer minutes for the top tier players and less scoring chances. I can sit on the board and complain for hours but that won't solve anything at this point. I can say first-hand that these postseason awards are not what the Loras players are in search of. Not to sound cliche, but they have bought into this system that Rothert has instituted, which means sacrificing themselves for the program.

I'm very interested to see what D3Soccer.com does with their All-American selections...

Puerco

I too am looking forward to the d3soccer.com selections. In my opinion, those are always a little more accurate. But you are spot on with the fact that Loras is feeling the effects of playing 25+....if you look at recent previous years, teams who go deep in the tournament and also deep into their bench don't necessarily get rewarded with the individual post-season accolades we're talking about. However, the fact that Loras has bought into Rothert's system you speak of and don't care about the awards is just another sign that Loras is becoming one of the more elite programs.

Messiah justly gets 3 all-americans, Robbins should probably be a 1st team along with Payne and Wood. How about Jack Thompson being a 2nd team all-region selection? Talk about a snub. Jack may be the most potent player on that team demonstrated by his 18 or so assists. Brian Ramirez would be another worthy selection but Division III will always be geographically driven to select these teams.

Can anyone speak on behalf of the forwards from Gordon and Randolph? Especially Randolph, having a 1st teamer from a team who didn't qualify for the tournament is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Same with Ben Brewster and Bowdoin. Not to say these players aren't good, but these awards usually cater to those players on teams with post-seasons. Just at first glance I counted 10 players from teams who didn't have a post-season existing in the NCAA tournament. I know it's not a requirement to be in the tournament in order to be an all-american but.....I think you guys get my point.

 Cavers and Robbins on 3rd team is a joke, but I guess to make the list at all is pretty fortunate.  There are so many players in D3 with such small shades of difference.

I think you are more than a bit unfair to NESCAC, mjdNJDevils.  NESCAC is an incredibly strong conference, across-the-board, year in and year out.  It may not always have one nationally dominant team, but its depth is its hallmark, and the quality of soccer is consistently high -- NESCAC teams don't have the luxury of beating up on 4-5 really bad teams each year, like in many conferences.  This year NESCAC did not have a truly dominant team, but FOUR different teams in the conference featured all-American players (five players total), and you extrapolate WAY too much from ONE rough day vs. Messiah (hardly the only team in the NCAA to experience that) by a young Williams team that frankly overachieved this season. 

Last year, Williams lost by one goal in the Final Four -- hardly an embarrassing performance -- and could easily have won that game, several golden opportunities missed.  And last year, frankly, Amherst was an absolutely dominant team, really should have beaten Williams to make the Final Four, and would have likely won in the semifinal and given Messiah a run for its money in the title tilt -- that 2012 Amherst squad was  loaded.  In 2009, Williams lost to Messiah 2-1 in the Final Four, again, a very respectable (at a minimum) performance.  And of course you conveniently omit the fact that Middlebury in 2008 (or maybe 2007, can't recall) was one of the VERY few non-Messiah schools to win the national championship in recent years.  And going back farther, Williams also owns a national title and a second-place finish (to a team that soon thereafter moved up a division) in the 1990s.  Historically, NESCAC has performed in the Final Four about as well as you would expect based on random chance -- they certainly have not generally been overmatched.  Messiah is the dominant force in Division III, and have embarrassed more than one team from various conferences even deep into the tournament.  But the NESCAC powers are right there with the other teams in the next tier, based on historical performance.  If NESCAC squads consistently made the Final Four and then got destroyed, you'd have a point, but that is not even close to what has happened -- this year was an aberration.  NESCAC teams, rather, make the Final Four because they are among the 4-5 best teams in the nation.  NESCAC is also the only conference that has had THREE teams that have made numerous deep tourney runs and been legitimate national title contenders over the past decade. 

Just look at the number of all-American players from NESCAC this year, or the number of players who have gone on to play high-level professional soccer from the conference.  The talent level in the league is absolutely legit -- this year, it just happened to be more widely dispersed rather than heavily concentrated in a few top teams. 

Quote from: nescac1 on December 14, 2013, 08:00:07 AMJust look at the number of all-American players from NESCAC this year, or the number of players who have gone on to play high-level professional soccer from the conference.  The talent level in the league is absolutely legit -- this year, it just happened to be more widely dispersed rather than heavily concentrated in a few top teams.

Who from the NESCAC has gone on to play high-level professional soccer? Khari Stephenson comes to mind but I'm having trouble thinking of others.

In 2007, I believe Middlebury became the first team to ever fail to register a goal at the final 4 and win the national championship. That Trinity team they beat never trailed a game all season and were one of the best teams to ever come through Division III.

I'd hardly say that because Williams lost by 1 goal to Ohio Northern in 2012 that they had a good showing after ONU went on to get beat 5-1. I watched the ONU v Williams game. Anyone else who did knows the better team won, it was 3-1 until very late when Williams snuck one in to make it interesting. Doesn't bode well being outplayed by the team that went on to lose 5-1.

No offense, but I don't think NESCAC will get the respect you feel is deserved from some posters on this board until you start playing good programs from other regions. Not to say that there aren't good teams in the NESCAC, but if teams from the NESCAC start beating some other programs from outside their own conference then people will take notice.

Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 13, 2013, 12:32:33 PM
I mistakenly left off Stevens as another program that I think is coming on strong in the Division III soccer world. Making an appearance in the 2008 title game only to fall in PK's to Messiah....correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you guys beat Amherst pretty good in that final 4 game?

I'm with you on all your views of the NESCAC. Their schedule is frustrating because none of the better teams travel out of region to play any other good programs. And I hate the fact that most years, due to the scheduling, one NESCAC team will be in the final 4. Don't get me wrong, it's not like it's a walk in the park for that team to get there and I'm in no way taking away from the fact that it's difficult to win tournament games, let alone 4 of them. But I REALLY wish that NESCAC teams would be thrown into different pods, if for no other reason, to see how they fare against other conferences. I'd like to see Amherst or Williams travel to play a good program out of region.


And NCAC, I was just typing out that Calvin should be included as well. Historically but also recently. Despite missing the tournament this year (and playing one of the hardest non-conference schedules in the country), from 2009-2011 they had 2 appearances in the National Championship game (most besides Messiah in same time-frame) and the other year was a loss in PK's in the elite 8.

Why are the Messiah vs Steven Tech PKs not on youtube?  Sorry mjd, but the 3 consecutive saves by Blossey (Brandt deciding to sub him in) was amazing to watch.   That was a great game overall.

Very excellent points about the NESCAC, and how NCAA managed to put Rutgers-Newark, Roger Williams, Williams, Brandeis in that pod (teams that did not win their conference and Brandeis was 4th or 5th in the UAA)... whereas York/Stevens/Camden/Montclair/CMU/Rochester were all grouped together.   Total joke.

I used to mention this on the d3soccer.net forum about how it would be a great thing if the NJAC and NESCAC had a tourney challenge like the ACC B10 does in basketball.   Could be held at a neutral location midway between NJ and Mass, pitting the top 8 teams in some random draw against each other.   Or possibly hosted by an NJAC school and NESCAC school on alternating years.

Seems like you hold NESCAC soccer to an impossible high standard.  How many other conferences have had two different programs win national titles?  I guess when even a national championship win isn't good enough to impress (in Midd's case), there isn't really much more I can say.  All I know is, TWO teams have won national titles other than Messiah in the past decade, and one of them was from NESCAC.  Sorry their national title wasn't stylish enough for you, but the fact is, they have a national title, which is more than Loras can say.   I promise you every single Midwest team would gladly have traded places with Midd (a true defensive juggernaut with a fantastic GK) that year.  In fact, I don't really understand why Loras should be considered (but not NESCAC) a great national power when they've never won a SINGLE game in a SINGLE Final Four.  They've yet to -- unlike NESCAC teams -- prove anything on the big stage.  I'm not knocking Loras -- I think they are a great program.  But they haven't proven to be a better program over the last decade than Amherst, Williams, or Midd, as they too have fallen victim to the Messiah juggernaut (or this year, lost to another team). 

NESCAC teams aren't going to start flying out to Ohio to play soccer games regularly.  I'm sure they would happily host top teams from other regions, but I don't see Loras and Ohio Wesleyan and such rushing out to head to Williamstown or Middlebury, either.  I don't claim that the Midwest teams are not worthy because they are "afraid" to come to New England and face the best from NESCAC.  In addition to playing in arguably the deepest conference (and inarguably one of the top) in Division III soccer, many NESCAC teams regularly play other top teams from their region.  In a fairly short season (remember, NESCAC starts practicing / playing later than other schools), there are very few non-conference games, and those are, justifiably, going to be played primarily vs. regional rivals.  Coaches from around the country, who I trust more than posters with a gripe, consistently recognize just how good NESCAC soccer is by the number of players earning individual all-American honors. 

What's most ridiculous is that because a team that Williams lost to by a single goal lost to Messiah in a blow-out in the title, suddenly, Williams (which was, again, only the second-best NESCAC squad that season) was not a legitimate Final Four team that year.  And they had to beat one of the top 2-3 teams in the country last year (believe me they were better than Ohio Northern) just to get to the Final Four. 

By your logic, there was not a SINGLE Division III team, other than Messiah, who deserved to be a Final Four team in 2004, 2006, and 2012, because in each of those years, Messiah blew out a team in the championship game (who of course in turn had beaten every other team it previously faced in the tourney).  Messiah is often on a whole different level from the rest of Division III.  But the top teams in NESCAC have proven that they belong squarely in the next tier.  Or are you saying that Wheaton (IL), UC Santa Cruz, and Ohio Northern were all crappy, undeserving teams because they, too, were dominated by Messiah in the Final Four?   There is clearly no shame in making a Final Four and losing badly to Messiah -- if there was, plenty of Final Four teams would be considered illegitimate. 

Here are the list of professional soccer players from Williams alone:

http://static.psbin.com/t/o/7xkrbnh7sphgep/Ephs_to_the_Pros.pdf

nescac1, I think everyone recognizes that the NESCAC is a strong conference.  What I've sensed is a shift from NESCAC being considered the default best conference to just one of the best.  I started this thread with the idea that NESCAC and the UAA are the two strongest, with the UAA perhaps getting the nod as the current #1.  I was asking which other conferences are close, like #3 thru #5.  And of course I had an agenda promoting that the NCAC should be among the conferences where 3 NCAA bids should be considered reasonable (and to my delight the NCAC did get 3 bids for the first time and arguably could have had 4 with DePauw left out who was nationally-ranked from start to finish with only 2 losses). 

What I'm reading here is that the NESCAC shouldn't be awarded #1 status just by default any longer.  There is a theme about the NESCAC being too insular and then having a road to the final four that largely involves beating another NESCAC team.  Aren't we all just a little tired of the Williams-Amherst matchup?  The insularity theme comes from several angles -- 1) the NESCAC initially refused to participate in the NCAA tourney; 2) the NESCAC, perhaps to some degree rightly, considers itself distinct from the rest of D3 with the idea of being a select conference of the New England elite academic institutions, even though other conferences are also laden with elite academic D3s; 3) the NESCAC plays less games and for the most part out-of-conference schedules against overmatched local D3s; and 4) advancing in the NCAA tournament often means beating these same overmatched local D3s. 

Over the last two years the NESCAC wins that stand out in my mind are Williams beating Brandeis twice in the sweet sixteen (and this year a Brandeis team that certainly was quite good but still only mid-table in the UAA), Tufts beating Brandeis mid-season, and Amherst squeaking by SLU (frankly a team that would have given Messiah a much better game than Williams did).

In terms of top conferences the NESCAC now has serious competition.  In addition to the UAA, there is the Centennial where usual bottom feeder Ursinus beat some big boys, and where the top 4-5 teams likely could compete on pretty equal footing with the toop 4-5 NESCACs.  By the way, the NESCAC at least recently also has had its bottom feeders, and the up-and-comers like Tufts and Conn College haven't exactly knocked the door down (although I think Tufts will next year).  The is of course the "gritty" NJAC and also the Liberty, NCAC, etc.  And what would happen if the top 3 NESCACs went head-to-head with Loras/Wartburg/Luther?  Because D3 does tend to be very eastern and New England-centric, we easterners especially don't tend to think about or include in the discussion other regions/teams being undersold or unfairly left out of the tournament....Calvin, DePauw, North Park, Oglethorpe, Randolph, etc.

At a minimum more NESCAC teams could play SLU, Rochester, Hobart, Union, Vassar, etc during the regular season and all of the PA/NJ schools are driveable as well.  Don't want to drive?  I'm sure OWU, Messiah, Franklin&Marshall, Kenyon, Dickinson, Christopher Newport, York, Salisbury, Stevens, etc would make the trip to New England for an early season weekend against two NESCAC foes.  And I am sure the NESCAC teams would win their share of these type of games, and I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit.

Side note:  there have been numerous references to Messiah's scoreline against Ohio Northern.  Messiah can lay a 5-1 beating on any D3 team depending on the day.  I think too much is made of that one game in evaluating how good (or not good) Ohio Northern was in 2012.  It's not like ONU backed into the final four.

NJAC have won 5 National Champions (Rowan 2x, Kean, TCNJ, and Stockton), with Camden being close to the 5th team.

nescac1, Iowa is a hike but I'm sure you could get OWU to spend a weekend in New England.  They went to Virginia Beach 2 years ago and are always looking to play top-flight competition early in the season.  See if you can get Amherst or Williams to host an early season weekend tournament with OWU, Stevens, York, Swat, F&M, Messiah, etc.  Messiah will come because they went to OWU in 2011.

You keep mentioning the All-Americans.  Does NESCAC really have more proportionately than other conferences???

Hard to argue Cavers not being on 2nd team atleast, but that 1st team is a very great group.   Not a fan of only 3 midfielders. Cavers was a very special player and total game changer who's stat line didn't show it.

Can you imagine how many goals Wood and Payne could have really had this year if they played more than 1200 minutes.   I guess that's why Messiah doesn't totally annihilate teams in conference... 

(1) I wish I had any influence over Williams and Amherst, but I certainly don't.  I would of course love to see them host a tournament featuring Messiah or OWU!  I don't believe they are ever afraid to play top-flight competition, but they definitely (despite having a ton of institutional wealth) have a very limited travel budget, so if reciprocity is part of the deal, it is unlikely to happen. 

(2) I am not someone who claims (and I don't see anyone who HAS) claimed that NESCAC is indisputably the best conference.  If that is the default perception, that is news to me.  I think it is indisputably in the top group of conferences, and I do believe that Midd, Amherst and Williams are three of the best programs in Division III and all belong in that next tier of 10-12 top programs following Messiah.  The attacks here go far beyond "NESCAC is not the best conference" -- that is a straw man, as no one has claimed that here as far as I am aware.

(3) Several of the NJAC titles came before NESCAC was first eligible to compete in the NCAAs (1993 -- and in the first two years of eligibility, Williams finished 2nd and 1st, nationally).  Williams could well have had a Messiah-esque run starting in the late 1980s had it been eligible, as most Williams observers believe that the 1988-89 era teams featuring Mike Masters and Dan Calichman were the best in Williams history.  I would certainly, in all events, group NJAC with NESCAC as top soccer powerhouses -- the two conferences have squared off many times in NCAA play, and typically -- albeit not always -- the games are highly competitive and evenly-matched. 

(4) re: all-Americans, it seems like NESCAC most years features a lot of all-American players from a broad group of schools in the conference.  My point is not to say NESCAC is best -- again, it's to say that coaches consistently recognize the talent level in NESCAC as nationally elite. 

Messiah also went to that same Virginia Beach tournament in 2009 to play Christopher Newport and Virginia Wesleyan. As well as traveling to New York this year to play Oneonta St. one year after making the Final 4 and when they played Cal Lutheran this year, Cal Lutheran was ranked in the top 10 I believe. In 2010 OWU went to Wheaton as well the first weekend of the year. In 2011 Wheaton as well as Messiah both came to OWU (alternating weekends). These programs are making efforts to play each other.

NCAC--good point about making too much of the ONU scoreline, you are probably right that I have read too much into that. But in my opinion, ONU was the better team. No bias, just my opinion.

I also wasn't trying to say that Middlebury's national championship should be moot. Simply stating a pretty amazing fact that a team won the national championship without scoring a goal at the final 4. Winning a national championship, no matter how you do it, is something to hang your hat on. There are many ways to win one, they did it with defense.

You make valid points about other teams getting blown out by Messiah. With the recent trends of Messiah's dominance there certainly isn't much shame in losing by 3 or 4 goals to Messiah in the tournament, as NCAC said, any given day Messiah can hang that on just about anyone.

2003- Trinity
2007- Middlebury
2011- Ohio Wesleyan

When you look at it from 2000, it's pretty amazing that every other year the national championship has been won by Messiah.

I think there is a changing of the guard in regard to the top conference in Division III. I feel like it use to be unanimous that it was the NESCAC....I just don't think they are the unanimous choice anymore. Nothing personal.

Midwest, on ONU, you mean stronger team than Williams in 2012, right?  And I agree.

nescac1, the NESCAC HAS been considered the default #1 conference for some time, with the recent concession of the UAA being in that discussion.  The fact that you are not claiming #1 status for NESCAC in itself represents a shift.  And I'm sure Messiah and OWU would be glad to play in a New England without reciprocity.  Of course it is odd that NESCAC schools have such limited travel budgets given that as you suggest they are far and away the wealthiest D3 institutions in the country (probably by far). 

The other suggestion which already has been mentioned earlier is to mix the NESCAC NCAA teams across at least two quadrants (so that we don't get continued All-NESCAC elite 8s). 

And I think you will be better represented next year.  I would expect Williams and/or Amherst, Tufts, and Middlebury to get bids with Wesleyan in the mix as well.

BTW, the biggest obstacle to teams traveling to New England for an early season tournament is that most teams are looking to do that on that opening weekend before NESCAC schools start play.  All scenarios for some improved out-of-conference games involve the NESCAC compromising on their traditions in some regard.  But the problem is not other schools being unwilling to come play them in New England.  And there is NO excuse for more NESCACs not playing Rochester, SLU, Union, Hobart, etc in their regular seasons.

The NESCAC's wont venture outside close proximity of their campuses for out of league games against new better competition because they only play 14 games, not the typical 18 or 20 as most D3's do.  The NESCAC league is so difficult top to bottom that all NESCAC League games are a huge battle and their really are no "check the box for a Win against"  anyone in the League, thus 10 League games = 10 very difficult games.  Now add on that they only have available 4 non-conference games and each school has their local non-NESCAC rivals 2 are usually tough battles (long standing rivalries) and 2 are usually cup cakes.  I cannot imagine the NESCAC's getting rid of 2 of their non-league games to schedule two additional tough quality national opponents just in the name of competition because with only a 14 game schedule it is inherently more difficult for the NESCAC teams to actually get an NCAA bid given their overall winning % is typically lower than many other teams given their 14 game schedule.  Of course if they were to expand to the traditional 18 game schedule, then I'm sure more NESCAC's would be willing to schedule more non-traditional regionally tougher non-league opponents (see Rochester, St Lawrence, Union, whomever....) as they would have additional games and would welcome the challenge against some additional better non-league competition, but not with a 14 game schedule as that could severely hamstring an already difficult attempt to secure NCAA bids and the coaches would be against it (as they are now).   Regarding next year in the NESCAC don't overlook both Trinity (very young this year) and Conn (losing only 3 starters--although replacing Hawkey will be a tall order) from both making runs at spots #3 and #4.  Also, very happy to see the representation NESCAC (multiple teams) received in the D3 All American teams...while no one dominate team in the league this year, although Amherst was the best even though they didn't get to the final four, there was a lot of talent spread amongst the top 7 teams.

OK, that's fair NCAC, I don't see NESCAC as the indisputable best conference or anything remotely like that -- just in the mix for the top group.  I echo All NESCAC's points about the schedule.  The schools just don't have many free games in any given season, which really is the issue more than those I earlier identified.  The NESCAC is certainly not to blame for NCAA placement in the tourney -- I do note that in the women's tourney this year, NESCAC teams were placed in 3/4 quadrants.  I would have no objection at all to spreading NESCAC teams out further in the men's tourney as well.  But from what I understand a lot of the issue, again, is money.  The NCAA typically tries to limit travel expenses in the D-3 tourney, and there are just so many teams from the Northeastern corner of the country that it is easy to create a bracket packed with teams all in close proximity to one another.  The same thing tends to happen in hoops which is likewise a bummer. 

I believe that Williams (assuming they find a good goalie) will be MUCH improved next year.  They return virtually everyone of note save for their goalie, including three of their better defenders / holding midfielders, all of whom were injured either prior to or during the season and out for the Messiah game.  They seem to have some incoming frosh who are capable finishers, which should help take pressure off Rashid.  Williams was a year ahead of schedule this year I think, and I believe will be far more competitive (albeit nowhere near Messiah's level still) vs. elite competition next season.  Amherst loses some very good defenders but returns all of its attackers and brings back a very dynamic playmaking midfielder who was also out for the entire season, and the Jeffs also return Bull who is going to likely be the best goalie in the country.  I think both of those teams and maybe Tufts as well will represent NESCAC very well next season. 

It is certainly fine to list all of the reasons why something can't or won't happen.  But then it's also fair for there to be consequences for all those things.  It's not Calvin's or North Park's or DePauw's fault if the NESCAC teams by virtue of some ancient etched-in-stone law can't play more than 14 games.  Of course EVERY team needs a couple of cupcakes, and a few NESCACs do play Brandeis, Wheaton (MA), MIT and the WNECs, ESCUs, RWUs and Gordons close by, so I don't fault them at all for those games.  They need to go to at least 16 games, with a decent to good opponent and a cupcake or two good opponents. 

Also, in these discussions, it is hard to decide if the NESCAC is overhyped or underappreciated.  The pro-NESCAC folks ALWAYS talk about how tough and bloody the conference is from top to bottom with the claim that the losses pile up because of beating each other up.  Is there an easy game in the NJAC?  The bottom team, Kean, beat Kenyon (albeit on a fortuitous OT goal) and I believe Haverford.  You can't make a similar comparison with the bottom NESCAC teams.  Do you think the mid-table Centennial teams are easy?  Calvin began the season with OWU, Kenyon, Loras, Hope.

All that said, expect the NESCAC to get at least 3 and probably 4 bids next year, and then all will seem right with the world again.  Then again, Wheaton returns almost everyone and will be very good (the huge loss to SLU being an aberration), and expect Gordon to stick around, along with ECSU or WNEC or RWU.  Sleeper team will be UMass-Dartmouth.

Nescac is going to 15 games next year.  I am and always will be a Nescac supporter but the league has been top heavy for 5-6 years now. Bates was the Nescac team this past year I have seen in a long time. They were undersized and overmatched. Colby the past few years have been unable to score any league goals

Frankly, we should probably all agree that using professional players isn't (and won't any time soon) be a good point for argument at the D3 level.  Not taking anything at all away of the players listed, but counting for instance Nick Armington's 2006 signing by Real Salt Lake's dev squad and making a career 0 starts is dubious at best, and we'll not even discuss the state of US soccer pre-1996.  That's not a knock on getting there, because everyone respects what it takes just to even get a look in, but I think recent times have told us that many players have a chance at a look in if they want it, but ultimately go the academic and workforce route which is a staple of the D3 game and rightfully so.

The problems I have are that:

1) As other users have further backed with additional supporting evidence as this thread has advanced, the NESCAC is not the only league that shows such depth, and in fact does not even demonstrate the best depth.  I would, in fact, unequivocally give that to the NJAC over the last decade for so many reasons already listed -- consistency of tournament performance, non-conference schedule willingness, success spread against multi-regional tournament opposition, and other factors.

2) I have no sympathy whatsoever, I'm afraid, for the "schedule excuse."  Not even entering play tournament play until 1993 is already a sad state of affairs to begin with, even recognizing the reasons, but ultimately the NESCAC would not be the only ones making sacrifices to play a full slate of games.  Did we not have the same discussions a few short years ago regarding trying to accommodate religious institutions' Sunday games?  There was some protest, but largely if needed schools will play on Sunday now.  This situation is no different to me.  The NESCAC should accept the modern state of the game and run an equivalent schedule. 

3) This is not a personal attack against you or any other NESCAC fan, player, coach, or league/institution representative, but your tone when discussing both sides of the issue is a very NESCAC/New England one.  It was pervasive growing up around me in CT, and it is pervasive in your explanations of why things are the way they stand in terms of scheduling.  "I don't believe they are ever afraid to play top-flight competition, but they definitely (despite having a ton of institutional wealth) have a very limited travel budget, so if reciprocity is part of the deal, it is unlikely to happen."  And why would they be eager to have reciprocity game deals?  When they can typically get 2 teams to the Elite 8 and 1 to the Final Four, expect to compete for national titles, dominate the Director's Cup due to sports most other schools can't even hope to field, etc?  Yet you're first dismissive of the NJAC national titles pre-NESCAC days to the point where one could read what you write as insinuating they never would have happened, offended of my admittedly selective non-use of the Middlebury 2007 title yet immediately claiming the Williams result this year to be a 1-off aberration (conveniently forgetting the 4-0 throttling of Amherst by Stevens in the same round in 2008), highly dismissively-toned of Loras despite their being a Final Four participant in 3 of the past 6 years, losing 2 of those games to Messiah and 2 in OT and having lost to an eventual Final 4 or Finalist-team every season in between, and making a baseless assumption that teams would have to have stipulations to travel to NESCAC schools if such games were available.  The September 2011 meeting between Messiah and OWU says otherwise, with that being their 4th meeting in 11 seasons.  I commentated for a match in 2008 between Redlands and Stevens in Hoboken, NJ.  Messiah competing in the Virginia Beach events.  Heck, the UAA has made their league schedule work despite near-impossible travel distances on a D3-comparative basis.  So it can and will be done.

No one is saying the NESCAC isn't a great league, with a history of great teams, coaches, and players.  But I think the Mountain West CBB example was very fitting.  For me, they've earned their situation by going out and aggressively taking on challenges, just today for instance New Mexico was visiting Kansas.  And I understand the economics and dynamics are vastly different.  But there is a recent trend, Middlebury aside, of out-of-region teams dispatching the believed elite sides from New England, sometimes in very convincing fashion.  I might sound harsh, but I don't think I'm unjustified in asking the NESCAC to get with the times and prove it, and the NCAA to oblige that fact and spread them out in the bracket.

Just as a discussion point for the group, thought I'd look up and post the numbers for the NESCAC in the tournament since 2008 (can't find any older brackets to run the tally on).  The draws are matches that went to PKs, win or lose.

Overall:  15-9-2

Home:  6-1
Away:  4-1-2
Neutral (overall):  5-7
Neutral (w/shorter travel):  2-1
Neutral (w/ longer travel):  3-5
Not AMH,WIL,MID:  1-4-1

So, while certainly the NESCAC has performed overall quite admirably, there is some support for the pause from some members of the board.  In recent years, the non-traditional conference powers have struggled regardless of the opposition, and winning on a neutral field for all sides has proven a challenge. 

The bottom line is that the NESCAC powers-that-be are not and will not be influenced by what has been, is or will be said on these boards.

Hopefully no schools are making decisions based on what is on these boards or any other internet chat forums.  But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be moved by the issues raised, which I'm sure are discussed at high levels on a fairly regular basis.  The academic elite argument for NESCAC never changing is a great one....until, as Midwest references above, one brings the UAA into the discussion.  The UAA easily matches the NESCAC in terms of academic eliteness from top to bottom and travels more by plane than bus from Atlanta to St Louis to New York to Pittsburgh/Cleveland to Rochester and Boston.  The Centennial is loaded with schools in the same academic tier as well, as is the Liberty and to some degree the NCAC.  What the other conferences with elite academic schools don't have, at least not to the degree of the NESCAC, are vestiges of a boarding school sensibility/arrogance which is the very thing that makes many take a not so sympathetic approach to NESCAC complaints (like not enough bids this year because the conference is too darn tough and good and/or has untouchable standards in regards to participation that will never change).  In short, such whinings run the strong risk of sounding like the very wealthiest persons complaining that they could and should be even wealthier than the rest of us if only the rules were bent more favorably in their direction.

BTW, one thing the NESCAC could do that they won't do because no one is listening, especially since moving to 11 teams with the addition of Hamilton, is to have teams play only 8 conference games and/or get rid of the tournament.  The schedules could rotate to ensure that a school never goes more than a year without playing all of the fellow members.  Sure, a team might have a tougher schedule one year than a fellow member but that could be more than made up for in terms of chances to get a bid via the additional non-league games that can be added.  Certain rivalries could remain intact, like 2 or 3 teams that you always play (Williams vs Amherst; Colby vs Bates and Bowdoin, etc).

Some more unsolicited advice to NESCAC and its supporters - say nothing, smile a lot and continue doing as you damn well please.

Not sure what your point is.  A poster or two suggests that NESCAC is not as dominant as some might think, some NESCAC posters object by citing the substantial barriers that NESCAC schools face, and a couple of posters suggest ways those barriers might be removed.

Does your advice only apply to the NESCAC?  Or can everyone do as they damn well please?

Of course the NESCAC will do as it pleases.  But is it possible there are changes that are in its self-interest, that NESCAC athletic programs might actually desire?  I think that's what we were discussing, options that might benefit THEM (and not the rest of us).

But NESCAC is so far above we mere mortals, how can we advise them? ::)

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 16, 2013, 09:02:35 PM
But NESCAC is so far above we mere mortals, how can we advise them? ::)

Ahh ;), you speak the truth grasshopper.

With apologies to Professor Uible, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of an 8 game NESCAC schedule.  We have a conference where the teams play less games than everyone else while having one of the largest in terms of total teams.  NESCAC loyalists lament that their hands are tied in terms of a more substantial and possibly more attractive non-conference schedule.   Playing less in-conference game is the solution.  One of the attractive things about UAA is only 7 conference games leaving tons of options in terms of out-of-conference scheduling.  So the NESCAC problem is fixed, for no charge.

Quote from: NCAC New England on December 17, 2013, 10:36:33 AM
With apologies to Professor Uible, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of an 8 game NESCAC schedule.  We have a conference where the teams play less games than everyone else while having one of the largest in terms of total teams.  NESCAC loyalists lament that their hands are tied in terms of a more substantial and possibly more attractive non-conference schedule.   Playing less in-conference game is the solution.  One of the attractive things about UAA is only 7 conference games leaving tons of options in terms of out-of-conference scheduling.  So the NESCAC problem is fixed, for no charge.

Fixed in theory.  Reality, unfortunately, is the NESCAC 10 game League schedule is here to stay and won't be changing, however the good news is they have expanded to 15 games, thus allowing an additional non-conference game to be played.  My guess is most of the NESCAC's schedule another local game (hopefully against Brandeis, Wheaton, WNEC, Gordon...)and avoid another out of region tough match up (ie Mesiah, Rochester, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan....).  Hopefully with this additional game some out of region competitive teams will invite some of the NESCAC's to travel to an early season (labor Day?) 2 game tournament. 

Thought that nescac teams couldn't start playing until after a certain date like September 8th? Wouldn't that leave a Labor Day tournament out of the question. Just jumping into the thread so have not read the last few pages.

Adding an extra game for Nescac schools was done because in 2012 Plymouth State and Middlebury game was postponed due to weather and not replayed. This gave Nidd only 13 regular season games and if they were at all decent in 2012 (which they were not) they wouldn't have been able to qualify for NCAA's. The rule states you have to play 14 regular season games minimum. In 2013 a Norwich v Midd game was canceled and never replayed but Midd picked up So.Vermont during the season. 15 games will mean nothing as most Nescac schools will just add another weak opponent