Is it appropriate to start this thread now that we've got a bunch of teams in already?
It looks like we're going to get our typical two pairs of orphans - the West Coast and Texas.
I'd like to think they'll bring everyone to Dallas, but they may choose to just send the winners of each pair to the bye teams.
Maybe I should've put the list together:
AMCC - Behrend
ASC -
CAC - Mary Washington
CC - Johns Hopkins
CUNYAC - York (NY)
CCIW - Wheaton (IL)
CSAC - Cabrini
CCC - Gordon
MACC - Alvernia
E8 - Hartwick
MACF - DeSales
GNAC - Albertus Magnus
HCAC - Rose-Hulman
IIAC - Central
LAND - Scranton
LL - Hobart
LEC - RIC
MASCAC - Bridgewater State
MIAA - Calvin
MWC - St. Norbert
MIAC -
NECC - Mitchell
NESCAC -
NEWMAC -
NJAC - Richard Stockton
NAC - Husson
NCAC - Wooster
NEAC - Morrisville State
NACC - Marian
NWC - Whitworth
OAC - Wilmington
ODAC -
PAC - St. Vincent
SKY - Purchase
SCIAC - Chapman
SCAC -
SLIAC - Webster
SUNYAC - Brockport
UAA - WashU
UMAC - Northwestern (MN)
USASAC - LaGrange
WIAC -
So, what happens if Centenary beats Trinity (TX) tomorrow in the SCAC championship game?? Centenary isn't eligible for the NCAA tournament until next year. Since Trinity won the regular season title, and would've been the runner up, I'd assume they take the place of Centenary??
According to the Trinity twitter feed...
QuoteTrinity Sports @Trinity_Sports 9h
Centenary defeats Schreiner, Trinity clinches a birth in the NCAA tournament. Gents and Tigers play for the #SCACmbkb title at Noon.
It is actually pretty surprising Centenary is in the conference tournament. Many conferences won't let the team compete until they are eligible for the NCAA tournament for this exact reason... however, they probably have their reasons and at least have a back-up plan.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 02, 2014, 11:26:20 AM
It is actually pretty surprising Centenary is in the conference tournament. Many conferences won't let the team compete until they are eligible for the NCAA tournament for this exact reason... however, they probably have their reasons and at least have a back-up plan.
The SLIAC has a first year provisional member in Iowa Wesleyan, whose women's team won the conference regular season but were not eligible to compete in the conference tournament.
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 01, 2014, 11:18:31 PM
Is it appropriate to start this thread now that we've got a bunch of teams in already?
It looks like we're going to get our typical two pairs of orphans - the West Coast and Texas.
I'd like to think they'll bring everyone to Dallas, but they may choose to just send the winners of each pair to the bye teams.
Actually, it is 2 flights if Dallas or Trinity hosts. If they pair the orphans with the bye's, the SCIAC probably flies to Withworth (and winner flies) and Trinity/ASC winner flies.
Three Plane Flights in the first round, guaranteed.
Otherwise, two lights in the first weekend and one in the second weekend.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Not D3, of course, but evidently the SWAC has a whole host of ineligible teams playing in their conference tournament this year, and a complicated formula for picking an NCAA representative if one of them wins.
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Also Trine.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Also Trine.
Actually Tri-State
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:45:06 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Also Trine.
Actually Tri-State
The only Indiana member of the MICHIGAN Intercollegiate Athletic Association.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:47:53 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:45:06 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Also Trine.
Actually Tri-State
The only Indiana member of the MICHIGAN Intercollegiate Athletic Association.
Did St. Mary's College recently move their campus north about 15 miles?
On a separate note, here is a map with the location of every team currently in the field. Today's finals that are in are included:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zgNG4_nIm5kU.kkKVsAFRDZD8
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on March 02, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:47:53 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:45:06 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 02, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
IIRC, Geneva competed in the PrAC tournament before they were a full member.
Right in your own back yard. Trine competed in the 2005 and 2006 MIAA Tournaments as a provisional.
Also Trine.
Actually Tri-State
The only Indiana member of the MICHIGAN Intercollegiate Athletic Association.
Did St. Mary's College recently move their campus north about 15 miles?
The Women's basketball page is thataway.
Alma's in Canada right?
Thanks for the link, Cornhusker. +1
Quote from: Denny McKinney on March 02, 2014, 04:13:29 PM
Thanks for the link, Cornhusker. +1
Yes, that's an impressive bit of work. Also +1
If this was the Division I tournament, with a bracket truly built around pure seeding, it would seem the #1 and #2 seeds would be...
#1 seeds
1. Amherst: .923/.587/9-0
2. Washington U.: .920/.588/9-2
3. UW-Stevens Point: .963/.586/6-1
4. Illinois Wesleyan: .852/.560/8-3
#2 seeds
5. Wooster: .923/.543/7-2
6. UW-Whitewater: .852/.579/4-2
7. Williams: .846/.567/4-3
8. Brockport State: .885/.553/4-2
Regardless of order, it will be very interesting to see how these 8 are bracketed - seems to me these are the top 8 seeds in the tournament.
Titan, I sure don't posess the skills to do this, but, I would love for you to continue on to the top 16, 3 seeds and 4 seeds. If this were d1 like you said
Quote from: GnacBballFan on March 02, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Titan, I sure don't posess the skills to do this, but, I would love for you to continue on to the top 16, 3 seeds and 4 seeds. If this were d1 like you said
Well I'm not sure I possess any skills to do this either, but my best guess...
(And disclaimer, the Division III bracket is not actually seeded perfectly due to geographical limitations. So this is basically just for fun.)
#1 seeds1. Amherst: .923/.587/9-0
2. Washington U.: .920/.588/9-2
3. UW-Stevens Point: .963/.586/6-1
4. Illinois Wesleyan: .852/.560/8-3
#2 seeds5. Wooster: .923/.543/7-2
6. UW-Whitewater: .852/.579/4-2
7. Williams: .846/.567/4-3
8. Brockport State: .885/.553/4-2
#3 seeds9. SUNY-Purchase: .926/.522/5-1
10. Cabrini: .962/.513/3-0
11. Wheaton: .704/.607/8-5
12. Plattsburgh State: .815/.553/4-4
#4 seeds13. Scranton: .889/.545/2-1
14. Wesley: .870/.529/5-0
15. Richard Stockton: .852/.537/4-2
16. Babson: .769/.567/3-5
Stuff like this just makes march madness that much better. Awesome job Titan! Can't wait for noon tomorrow
I love the bracket projections. Great job!
Lots of head scratching with this bracket.
Emory hosting?
And couldn't they figure out a way to get Wooster out of that region? It's killer.
Quadrant, AVG Massey Rating, Stdev
Bottom Left Quadrant, 36.81, 43.09
Top Left Quadrant, 59.80, 76.09
Top Right Quadrant, 66.80, 64.60
Bottom Right Quadrant, 73.63, 60.06
Average Massey Rating of top 8 in Quadrant
Bottom Left, 10.25
Top Left, 14.75
Top Right, 23.50
Bottom Right, 31.00
Also its a West v West, East v East semi-final basically.
Quote from: sac on March 03, 2014, 01:38:41 PM
Also its a West v West, East v East semi-final basically.
Yeah, they need to prevent this kind of mass turnover in the committee going forward. Some rookie mistakes there.
What time are the first round games usually on Friday? And 2nd round Saturday? Night or afternoon? Or staggered?
There are 5 regions sharing 8 hosting spots on the right side and only 3 regions sharing on the left-discounting the Emory anomaly. Randy-Mac lost to Scranton head-to-head and has a poorer W-L %; doesn't figure for hosting.
Quote from: NEHoopsFan99 on March 03, 2014, 01:57:05 PM
What time are the first round games usually on Friday? And 2nd round Saturday? Night or afternoon? Or staggered?
The Saturday games are usually 7. The Friday ones are either 5 & 7 or 6 & 8 depending on what the host school wants to do, but they are usually at night, however there are some exceptions (Randolph-Macon vs. Stevens last year at 1 in the afternoon) for example.
Quote from: ronk on March 03, 2014, 02:32:03 PM
Randy-Mac lost to Scranton head-to-head and has a poorer W-L %; doesn't figure for hosting.
Second game of the season by 2 points. I don't think the committee can get to that level of detail in making these kinds of decisions. Also, if you place any faith at all in the Massey ratings, they have Randy-Mac (I love that you referred to the school that way because that's what we called it when I was a student decades ago) ranked 47th in Strength of Schedule and Scranton 162nd.
So what opening weekend pod is the toughest?
Off the top of my head, I think Whitewater, Augustana and St. Thomas (along with Northwestern) is as tough as they get.
I'm thinking Whitworth, Texas-Dallas and Trinity (Texas), along with Chapman could be a grind.
There's four pretty good teams playing at Wash U., and the IWU pod isn't too shabby either, if the good OWU shows up.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 03, 2014, 05:16:49 PM
There's four pretty good teams playing at Wash U., and the IWU pod isn't too shabby either, if the good OWU shows up.
Massey's obviously not the be-all, end-all, but all four teams in the Wash U pod are in Massey's top 35. Gotta be among the toughest overall pods in the tourney - just no weak team there.
Wash U - 2
Calvin - 17
Wilmington - 18
Wittenberg - 32
Illinois Wesleyan - 4
Webster - 168
St. Norbert - 5
Ohio Wesleyan - 35
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2014, 05:06:04 PM
So what opening weekend pod is the toughest?
Off the top of my head, I think Whitewater, Augustana and St. Thomas (along with Northwestern) is as tough as they get.
I'm thinking Whitworth, Texas-Dallas and Trinity (Texas), along with Chapman could be a grind.
Whitewater - 3
Augustana - 14
St. Thomas - 20
Northwestern - 288
Whitworth - 25
Texas-Dallas - 12
Trinity (Texas) - 62
Chapman - 109
I posted my complaints about the Pool C picks in the Pool C thread, so here I'll complain about the bracket.
Wow, what a mediocre job.
My guess is the committee was exhausted by the process and didn't have the time or energy to put together a bracket that didn't stink. Or they don't know geography and didn't know who played who already this season.
First, the Emory thing. The obvious answer was to put a pod in Centre and bring over a Southern Ohio team (Wilmington or Wittenberg) into the pod and you give Wash U the bye they deserve. So it wasn't an unfixable problem like the travel pod in UT-Dallas. So it was an out and out flub.
Second, how many teams are in the same pod with a team they've already played. We have St. Olaf in the UWSP pod, Wheaton in the Hope pod.
Third, why are we heading towards a Sweet 16 between #3 Wash U and #4 IWU, while we have two lower ranked teams on the top half of that bracket (Wooster and Hope). You could have put a Centre based bracket (where there would have been a fighting chance of someone emerging that doesn't require an air trip for the 2nd weekend) into this bracket and swap up the Hope pod creating a little better balance.
Fourth, there are 4 hosts in the South. One of the weaker regions ends up with 4 hosts. Randolph Macon or Va. Wesleyan should have lost their hosting rights to Scranton.
Fifth, the east-west thing (one team will be from the east, one from the west in the finals)
Six, why does it occur the committee to split up Williams and Amherst, but not Whitewater and Stephens Point or Randolph Macon and Va. Wesleyan?
Disappointed. Could have been better done.
Things they got right
Seeding---I think they got the seeding correct if you view pods at a 1, 2, 3, 4. Use Knightslappy's RPI and I think you'll see at least in the West they were very close with a few of the expected geographical exceptions.
Split Hope/Calvin -- and this may seem small to others but to me this was big, Hope and Calvin have never been in the same tournament, further apart. We've always been lined up to play each other in the 2nd round. On a bigger scale they avoided almost all 2nd round conference rematches, that's an important departure from past tournaments.
Quote from: ronk on March 03, 2014, 02:32:03 PM
There are 5 regions sharing 8 hosting spots on the right side and only 3 regions sharing on the left-discounting the Emory anomaly. Randy-Mac lost to Scranton head-to-head and has a poorer W-L %; doesn't figure for hosting.
Ronk - RMC has a FAR better SOS than Scranton. But that doesn't matter... Scranton and RMC should be hosting.
Quote from: bopol on March 03, 2014, 07:32:14 PM
I posted my complaints about the Pool C picks in the Pool C thread, so here I'll complain about the bracket.
Wow, what a mediocre job.
My guess is the committee was exhausted by the process and didn't have the time or energy to put together a bracket that didn't stink. Or they don't know geography and didn't know who played who already this season.
First, the Emory thing. The obvious answer was to put a pod in Centre and bring over a Southern Ohio team (Wilmington or Wittenberg) into the pod and you give Wash U the bye they deserve. So it wasn't an unfixable problem like the travel pod in UT-Dallas. So it was an out and out flub.
Second, how many teams are in the same pod with a team they've already played. We have St. Olaf in the UWSP pod, Wheaton in the Hope pod.
Third, why are we heading towards a Sweet 16 between #3 Wash U and #4 IWU, while we have two lower ranked teams on the top half of that bracket (Wooster and Hope). You could have put a Centre based bracket (where there would have been a fighting chance of someone emerging that doesn't require an air trip for the 2nd weekend) into this bracket and swap up the Hope pod creating a little better balance.
Fourth, there are 4 hosts in the South. One of the weaker regions ends up with 4 hosts. Randolph Macon or Va. Wesleyan should have lost their hosting rights to Scranton.
Fifth, the east-west thing (one team will be from the east, one from the west in the finals)
Six, why does it occur the committee to split up Williams and Amherst, but not Whitewater and Stephens Point or Randolph Macon and Va. Wesleyan?
Disappointed. Could have been better done.
Have you ever heard the old saying: "the more things change the more they stay the same".
In the 2000 tournament Calvin was #1, and hosted a sweet 16 round. The other teams were # 3 Wooster, and #4 McMurry, and Marysville who beat the # 2 team Hampden S. to make it to Grand Rapids. So there was a pairing of 3 of the top 4 ranked teams at the time, and it potentially could have been all 4 top teams.
Quote from: realist on March 03, 2014, 09:01:32 PM
Quote from: bopol on March 03, 2014, 07:32:14 PM
I posted my complaints about the Pool C picks in the Pool C thread, so here I'll complain about the bracket.
Wow, what a mediocre job.
My guess is the committee was exhausted by the process and didn't have the time or energy to put together a bracket that didn't stink. Or they don't know geography and didn't know who played who already this season.
First, the Emory thing. The obvious answer was to put a pod in Centre and bring over a Southern Ohio team (Wilmington or Wittenberg) into the pod and you give Wash U the bye they deserve. So it wasn't an unfixable problem like the travel pod in UT-Dallas. So it was an out and out flub.
Second, how many teams are in the same pod with a team they've already played. We have St. Olaf in the UWSP pod, Wheaton in the Hope pod.
Third, why are we heading towards a Sweet 16 between #3 Wash U and #4 IWU, while we have two lower ranked teams on the top half of that bracket (Wooster and Hope). You could have put a Centre based bracket (where there would have been a fighting chance of someone emerging that doesn't require an air trip for the 2nd weekend) into this bracket and swap up the Hope pod creating a little better balance.
Fourth, there are 4 hosts in the South. One of the weaker regions ends up with 4 hosts. Randolph Macon or Va. Wesleyan should have lost their hosting rights to Scranton.
Fifth, the east-west thing (one team will be from the east, one from the west in the finals)
Six, why does it occur the committee to split up Williams and Amherst, but not Whitewater and Stephens Point or Randolph Macon and Va. Wesleyan?
Disappointed. Could have been better done.
Have you ever heard the old saying: "the more things change the more they stay the same".
In the 2000 tournament Calvin was #1, and hosted a sweet 16 round. The other teams were # 3 Wooster, and #4 McMurry, and Marysville who beat the # 2 team Hampden S. to make it to Grand Rapids. So there was a pairing of 3 of the top 4 ranked teams at the time, and it potentially could have been all 4 top teams.
There will hopefully NEVER be a Bracket of Death to compare to 4-5 years ago - if memory serves, ONE quadrant had 7 of the top 8 teams in the d3hoops poll!! But this year's lower left if still much too close: with WashU, IWU, St. Norbert, and Wooster, plus such teams as Hope, Witt, Calvin, Geneseo, and Wilmington. (In comparing brackets, I ignore the really weak teams since they will likely all be gone by Saturday anyway. In a single-elimination tourney, strength of a portion of the bracket is entirely dependent on the top teams, IMO, unlike making strength of conference comparisons.)
I hope that TitanQ gets to see the UT-Dallas pod. Great games in a fan friendly gym. (Not necessarily an architectural statement, but functional as a public multi-use facility.)
Listening to this podcast with Ulrich is just making me more upset. It just seems like they were in over their heads. Simple, cost-neutral changes that were just missed. Even if they didn't want to get creative with pods, they still could have evened out the overall strength.
Looks like I'll be heading up to Cabrini once again this year. I was hoping Wesley could host and be closer to me, but Cabrini is just a little over an hour, so not too bad.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
Looks like I'll be heading up to Cabrini once again this year. I was hoping Wesley could host and be closer to me, but Cabrini is just a little over an hour, so not too bad.
Hoops see you there!
Quote from: bopol on March 03, 2014, 07:32:14 PM
Third, why are we heading towards a Sweet 16 between #3 Wash U and #4 IWU, while we have two lower ranked teams on the top half of that bracket (Wooster and Hope). You could have put a Centre based bracket (where there would have been a fighting chance of someone emerging that doesn't require an air trip for the 2nd weekend) into this bracket and swap up the Hope pod creating a little better balance.
bopol -- overall, I agree with your comments about the poor bracketing by the NCAA. However, your comment about #4 IWU above doesn't make sense to me because you are using an old D3Hoops rating for the Titans before they picked up their 4th D3 loss in the CCIW tourney.
Wooster, on the other hand, only has 2 losses in D3 so they may be ranked ahead of IWU by the NCAA at this point? D3Hoops rating and the NCAA rating (seeding) are obviously two different methodologies.
It will be very interesting to see who hosts the sectional
IF Wash U. is upset, IWU wins their pod and Wooster wins their pod. It will not surprise me at all if the sectional is in Ohio under that scenario. ;)
Quote from: wooscotsfan on March 03, 2014, 11:10:38 PM
bopol -- overall, I agree with your comments about the poor bracketing by the NCAA. However, your comment about #4 IWU above doesn't make sense to me because you are using an old D3Hoops rating for the Titans before they picked up their 4th D3 loss in the CCIW tourney.
Wooster, on the other hand, only has 2 losses in D3 so they may be ranked ahead of IWU by the NCAA at this point? D3Hoops rating and the NCAA rating (seeding) are obviously two different methodologies.
It will be very interesting to see who hosts the sectional IF Wash U. is upset, IWU wins their pod and Wooster wins their pod. It will not surprise me at all if the sectional is in Ohio under that scenario. ;)
I'd put Wooster a touch under IWU, so I think it is justified that you would geared the two towards a Elite 8 matchup. To take it a step further, IWU and Wash U played in the regular season. So did Wooster and Wheaton (in the Hope bracket, beat Hope during the regular season). So there is a good chance that we'll have the 2 Sweet 16 games be repeats, even though that could have been avoided by some juggling and careful attention, which was quite lacking on the Great Lakes/Midwest/West side of the bracket.
Given what's there, I think I would have put the Hope bracket in the UWSP upper right corner and dropped the Texas Dallas bracket into the lower right corner bracket.
Geared towards:
UWSP vs. Hope (3rd Round) in UWSP
Emory vs. UWW (3rd Round)
Wash U vs. UT-Dallas in Bloomington
IWU vs. Wooster
No repeats of regular season matchups until the Elite 8. I agree with you in principle that Wooster could easily deserve to host the 2nd weekend, but I don't see it happening based on travel considerations. It'll likely end up in Bloomington, IL.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
Looks like I'll be heading up to Cabrini once again this year. I was hoping Wesley could host and be closer to me, but Cabrini is just a little over an hour, so not too bad.
Not sure why you had your hopes up for Wesley hosting... they were never hosting even if they were #1 in the region or #1 in the country! :)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2014, 01:02:14 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
Looks like I'll be heading up to Cabrini once again this year. I was hoping Wesley could host and be closer to me, but Cabrini is just a little over an hour, so not too bad.
Not sure why you had your hopes up for Wesley hosting... they were never hosting even if they were #1 in the region or #1 in the country! :)
And to actually explain why -- it's because Wesley's facility can't host. And they did not bid.
Wooster was absolutely, positively the #1 team in the final Great Lakes regional rankings and Hope was surely #2. Wash U was absolutely, positively the #1 team in the final Midwest regional rankings and IWU was maybe #2, maybe lower. I think, in the NCAA's eyes, at least, that Wash U and Wooster are the clear #1 and #2 seeds, respectively, in this bracket, with Hope/IWU as flip-a-coin 3/4s.
None of the teams in the Wooster pod are within 500 miles of St. Louis, so Wash U won't host the second weekend even if there's total carnage among the top seeds in the bracket. It's possible, I suppose, that the committee considered the possibility that Wash U's women would host that second weekend and therefore felt comfortable slotting the Wooster pod into this bracket. But that would've required some advanced thinking skills not demonstrated elsewhere by the committee.
But I do think that if the four teams still standing on Saturday can all reach Wooster in 500 miles, Wooster will host due to seeding considerations over IWU or Hope. I think Wash U, St. Norbert and Webster are the three teams that can't reach Wooster without a flight.
In a way, it'd be amazing to see Geneseo State, Penn State-Behrend, Wash U and St. Norbert advance because you'd have two east teams and two west teams with 600+ miles and the entire states of Ohio, Indiana and Illinois in between them any way you measure.
Wooster is highest on the bracket, suggests they're next in line to host. After that IWU.
In order for Hope to host, you'd need WashU to win and probably St. Norbert to win at IWU
or someone other than Wooster to win that regional. Wheaton would be in the mix under the first scenario as well.
Anyone other than Wooster winning would also bring Calvin/Witt/Wilmington into the hosting the next round discussion.
Quote from: kiltedbryan on March 04, 2014, 01:22:20 AM
But that would've required some advanced thinking skills not demonstrated elsewhere by the committee.
I think we've found this years motto for the tournament.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2014, 09:13:19 PMThere will hopefully NEVER be a Bracket of Death to compare to 4-5 years ago - if memory serves, ONE quadrant had 7 of the top 8 teams in the d3hoops poll!!
Round #1 in 2009: 2 v. 20, 8 v. 19, and 21 v. RV; then 1, 3, 4, and 5 playing unranked teams. That's 7 round 1 games involving 9 top-21 teams; #7 Puget Sound got a bye, and then #21. So round #2 also had 2 v. 8, 3 v. 5, and 1 v. 4. Sounds like round 4 to me.
Using Massey final ratings (all I saw in their archive), it was 1 thru 11 missing only #10. That was Augustana, who didn't make it in.
Quote from: sac on March 04, 2014, 01:45:28 AM
Wooster is highest on the bracket, suggests they're next in line to host. After that IWU.
In order for Hope to host, you'd need WashU to win and probably St. Norbert to win at IWU or someone other than Wooster to win that regional. Wheaton would be in the mix under the first scenario as well.
Anyone other than Wooster winning would also bring Calvin/Witt/Wilmington into the hosting the next round discussion.
Quote from: kiltedbryan on March 04, 2014, 01:22:20 AM
But that would've required some advanced thinking skills not demonstrated elsewhere by the committee.
I think we've found this years motto for the tournament.
Apropos of nothing, it occurs to me that (in no particular order) Calvin, Hope, IWU, and Wooster have some of the very best facilities in all of D3, and I believe these are the top four in average attendance. It's too bad that only one (or none) of them will be able to host a sectional.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 04, 2014, 01:05:41 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2014, 01:02:14 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
Looks like I'll be heading up to Cabrini once again this year. I was hoping Wesley could host and be closer to me, but Cabrini is just a little over an hour, so not too bad.
Not sure why you had your hopes up for Wesley hosting... they were never hosting even if they were #1 in the region or #1 in the country! :)
And to actually explain why -- it's because Wesley's facility can't host. And they did not bid.
Yeah, I guess I would know that if I'd ever been there, but that $5 admission is still keeping me away. I was going to go to the Wesley-St. Mary's regular reason finale (which went to overtime), but we had some sick people in the house, so I stayed home.
Quote from: bopol on March 03, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
So there is a good chance that we'll have the 2 Sweet 16 games be repeats, even though that could have been avoided by some juggling and careful attention, which was quite lacking on the Great Lakes/Midwest/West side of the bracket.
Same thing could happen in the quadrant that has Randolph-Macon and Virginia Wesleyan.
Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 04, 2014, 08:13:16 AM
Quote from: bopol on March 03, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
So there is a good chance that we'll have the 2 Sweet 16 games be repeats, even though that could have been avoided by some juggling and careful attention, which was quite lacking on the Great Lakes/Midwest/West side of the bracket.
Same thing could happen in the quadrant that has Randolph-Macon and Virginia Wesleyan.
Purchase and Albertus is a repeat - and that's set for round two.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 04, 2014, 07:15:40 AM
Quote from: sac on March 04, 2014, 01:45:28 AM
Wooster is highest on the bracket, suggests they're next in line to host. After that IWU.
In order for Hope to host, you'd need WashU to win and probably St. Norbert to win at IWU or someone other than Wooster to win that regional. Wheaton would be in the mix under the first scenario as well.
Anyone other than Wooster winning would also bring Calvin/Witt/Wilmington into the hosting the next round discussion.
Quote from: kiltedbryan on March 04, 2014, 01:22:20 AM
But that would've required some advanced thinking skills not demonstrated elsewhere by the committee.
I think we've found this years motto for the tournament.
Apropos of nothing, it occurs to me that (in no particular order) Calvin, Hope, IWU, and Wooster have some of the very best facilities in all of D3, and I believe these are the top four in average attendance. It's too bad that only one (or none) of them will be able to host a sectional.
Reminds me of a playoff pod a few years back (2007?) with Hope playing Chicago and calvin playing Aurora. It was hosted by Aurora and I remember walking into the gym and thinking "my high school gym was twice this size and twice as nice"... Hope beat calvin the next day, roughly 200 miles away from both schools... Ten years prior, they played each other in Van Andel Arena in downtown Grand Rapids with more than 11,000 fans watching... I believe this is still a D3 record.
Fine line, however. If Hope and calvin meet in the playoffs, the gym should be able to hold all of the people willing to make the 3 hour drive. But, from a "fairness" standpoint, how much should facilities really factor into hosting. Obviously, it's needed to some extent. But the next round should go to Wooster, IWU, or Washington, based on merit. If those don't work because of the 500 mile rule, then Hope/Wheaton.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 04, 2014, 08:27:12 AM
Purchase and Albertus is a repeat - and that's set for round two.
Not sure about the other games but this was a late January game too. Not like it was a first semester, pre-conference game.
Here's an idea to throw out there...
This committee lacked the creativity to make a bracket that balanced things as well as they could have been balanced, set up a definitive west vs. east championship, gave a bye where it didn't need to be given, etc etc.
They appear to have been in over their heads when it came to the bracketing process. Also, there was some disagreement with the selection, but let's leave one alone for a bit.
Why does the national committee do the bracketing AND the selection? Why isn't there a second (RESTED, Correctly THINKING, etc etc) committee to set up the brackets? The selection committee has a tough job... weeding through the possible field... and then we expect them to turn around and make intelligent decisions on brackets, given certain restraints (but one of which is NOT balance, creativity, etc)...
I think that the NCAA needs to have two different committees. One to select the teams and a second committee to set up the brackets.
Quote from: sethteater on March 04, 2014, 08:50:00 AM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 04, 2014, 07:15:40 AM
Quote from: sac on March 04, 2014, 01:45:28 AM
Wooster is highest on the bracket, suggests they're next in line to host. After that IWU.
In order for Hope to host, you'd need WashU to win and probably St. Norbert to win at IWU or someone other than Wooster to win that regional. Wheaton would be in the mix under the first scenario as well.
Anyone other than Wooster winning would also bring Calvin/Witt/Wilmington into the hosting the next round discussion.
Quote from: kiltedbryan on March 04, 2014, 01:22:20 AM
But that would've required some advanced thinking skills not demonstrated elsewhere by the committee.
I think we've found this years motto for the tournament.
Apropos of nothing, it occurs to me that (in no particular order) Calvin, Hope, IWU, and Wooster have some of the very best facilities in all of D3, and I believe these are the top four in average attendance. It's too bad that only one (or none) of them will be able to host a sectional.
Reminds me of a playoff pod a few years back (2007?) with Hope playing Chicago and calvin playing Aurora. It was hosted by Aurora and I remember walking into the gym and thinking "my high school gym was twice this size and twice as nice"... Hope beat calvin the next day, roughly 200 miles away from both schools... Ten years prior, they played each other in Van Andel Arena in downtown Grand Rapids with more than 11,000 fans watching... I believe this is still a D3 record.
Fine line, however. If Hope and calvin meet in the playoffs, the gym should be able to hold all of the people willing to make the 3 hour drive. But, from a "fairness" standpoint, how much should facilities really factor into hosting. Obviously, it's needed to some extent. But the next round should go to Wooster, IWU, or Washington, based on merit. If those don't work because of the 500 mile rule, then Hope/Wheaton.
Aurora's gym is a perfectly reasonable Division III gym. The bar should be set even lower than that, frankly, for hosting the tournament.
Attendance from that Hope/Calvin game at Aurora was 1800 with some seating blocked off. It was perfectly acceptable.
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/0607/0303hoca.htm
In fact at that time, 2000 might have been the 3rd largest Gym in the MIAA.
Quote from: sac on March 04, 2014, 11:05:02 AM
Attendance from that Hope/Calvin game at Aurora was 1800 with some seating blocked off. It was perfectly acceptable.
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/0607/0303hoca.htm
In fact at that time, 2000 might have been the 3rd largest Gym in the MIAA.
Good point. A first-weekend set of games could be played in buildings of less than half that size, with clearing the gym between games if necessary.
Quote from: John Gleich on March 04, 2014, 10:49:24 AM
Here's an idea to throw out there...
This committee lacked the creativity to make a bracket that balanced things as well as they could have been balanced, set up a definitive west vs. east championship, gave a bye where it didn't need to be given, etc etc.
They appear to have been in over their heads when it came to the bracketing process. Also, there was some disagreement with the selection, but let's leave one alone for a bit.
Why does the national committee do the bracketing AND the selection? Why isn't there a second (RESTED, Correctly THINKING, etc etc) committee to set up the brackets? The selection committee has a tough job... weeding through the possible field... and then we expect them to turn around and make intelligent decisions on brackets, given certain restraints (but one of which is NOT balance, creativity, etc)...
I think that the NCAA needs to have two different committees. One to select the teams and a second committee to set up the brackets.
I agree with this. It seems like too much work for one group of people. A single person or a small group could do a better job without a lot of basketball knowledge getting good setups. That bracket can be doublechecked by the committee.
For a year or two the committee released the participants on Sunday night and the bracket the next day. I don't know how much of a check-and-balance that provided since the same people did both, but maybe it segmented the conversation so that the selection process didn't squeeze out too much time for building the bracket.
It's like Bill Simmons' old VP of Common Sense argument. You just need someone outside the process (but still knowledgeable) to take a look and point out obvious problems.
I know they treat this thing like Ft Knox, partly because of how secretive they do things in D1 and partly because of a collective sense of self-importance - but there's nothing to stop them from sending a provisional bracket to say, Pat Coleman, and asking, "anything simple we just missed?"
It would take fifteen minutes for him to say, "switch the bottom left with the top right; and switch the IWU pod with the Hope pod."
Obviously there could have been more creative solutions, but at least you'd get an outside opinion on things you can change without actually changing any of the lines on the sheet.
If you don't want Pat involved, you could use a past National Committee chair - Mike DeWitt would have given them the same feedback in the same amount of time. No harm, no foul.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 04, 2014, 03:51:45 PM
For a year or two the committee released the participants on Sunday night and the bracket the next day. I don't know how much of a check-and-balance that provided since the same people did both, but maybe it segmented the conversation so that the selection process didn't squeeze out too much time for building the bracket.
Considering the NCAA wants to announce the brackets CBS and ESPN style-esque now... we are never going to see those names released ahead of time again.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 04, 2014, 03:51:45 PM
For a year or two the committee released the participants on Sunday night and the bracket the next day. I don't know how much of a check-and-balance that provided since the same people did both, but maybe it segmented the conversation so that the selection process didn't squeeze out too much time for building the bracket.
Considering the NCAA wants to announce the brackets CBS and ESPN style-esque now... we are never going to see those names released ahead of time again.
The teams selected don't have to be announced like they were in the those years... just passed from National Selection Committee (submitted by 10:00 PM Sunday night or the like) to National Bracketing Committee.
The result is that, come selection Monday, all of the fingers aren't pointing at the same people for both perceived blunders... one group is
to blame responsible for the selection and another altogether (disconnected completely from the selection) is
to blame responsible for the brackets.
Apart from this, based on the interviews conducted by Dave this year, I'd love to see a situation where the selection process from start to finish is done double-blind-style. All of the teams are assigned a random number but are compared ONLY with the criteria shown.
It doesn't matter what conference a team is from. It doesn't matter who the team's non-conference opponents were. It doesn't matter if a team was #2 in their region or #6. None of these are criteria* (*I acknowledge that common opponents are a criteria, as are head to head, but the actual teams don't need to be known). There will be no "eye test" possible because:
Team 5478: .625/.599/4-7 1-0 vs Team 6857
Team 8943: .680/.591/4-5 0-2 vs Team 6857
Who gets in?
EDIT: Maybe more appropriate question: Who gets in first? I don't think that anyone had Emory (Team 8943) out of the tournament... but Carthage (Team 5478) didn't get picked ahead of them, as was prognosticated here... or at all.
Quote from: John Gleich on March 04, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 04, 2014, 03:51:45 PM
For a year or two the committee released the participants on Sunday night and the bracket the next day. I don't know how much of a check-and-balance that provided since the same people did both, but maybe it segmented the conversation so that the selection process didn't squeeze out too much time for building the bracket.
Considering the NCAA wants to announce the brackets CBS and ESPN style-esque now... we are never going to see those names released ahead of time again.
The teams selected don't have to be announced like they were in the those years... just passed from National Selection Committee (submitted by 10:00 PM Sunday night or the like) to National Bracketing Committee.
The result is that, come selection Monday, all of the fingers aren't pointing at the same people for both perceived blunders... one group is to blame responsible for the selection and another altogether (disconnected completely from the selection) is to blame responsible for the brackets.
Apart from this, based on the interviews conducted by Dave this year, I'd love to see a situation where the selection process from start to finish is done double-blind-style. All of the teams are assigned a random number but are compared ONLY with the criteria shown.
It doesn't matter what conference a team is from. It doesn't matter who the team's non-conference opponents were. It doesn't matter if a team was #2 in their region or #6. None of these are criteria* (*I acknowledge that common opponents are a criteria, as are head to head, but the actual teams don't need to be known). There will be no "eye test" possible because:
Team 5478: .625/.599/4-7 1-0 vs Team 6857
Team 8943: .680/.591/4-5 0-2 vs Team 6857
Who gets in?
EDIT: Maybe more appropriate question: Who gets in first? I don't think that anyone had Emory (Team 8943) out of the tournament... but Carthage (Team 5478) didn't get picked ahead of them, as was prognosticated here... or at all.
I'd still take the second team. The SOS is real close and they both won 4 against RRO, while playing a lot of those games. I see the winning percentage difference as large enough not to worry about common opponents.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 04, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on March 04, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2014, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 04, 2014, 03:51:45 PM
For a year or two the committee released the participants on Sunday night and the bracket the next day. I don't know how much of a check-and-balance that provided since the same people did both, but maybe it segmented the conversation so that the selection process didn't squeeze out too much time for building the bracket.
Considering the NCAA wants to announce the brackets CBS and ESPN style-esque now... we are never going to see those names released ahead of time again.
The teams selected don't have to be announced like they were in the those years... just passed from National Selection Committee (submitted by 10:00 PM Sunday night or the like) to National Bracketing Committee.
The result is that, come selection Monday, all of the fingers aren't pointing at the same people for both perceived blunders... one group is to blame responsible for the selection and another altogether (disconnected completely from the selection) is to blame responsible for the brackets.
Apart from this, based on the interviews conducted by Dave this year, I'd love to see a situation where the selection process from start to finish is done double-blind-style. All of the teams are assigned a random number but are compared ONLY with the criteria shown.
It doesn't matter what conference a team is from. It doesn't matter who the team's non-conference opponents were. It doesn't matter if a team was #2 in their region or #6. None of these are criteria* (*I acknowledge that common opponents are a criteria, as are head to head, but the actual teams don't need to be known). There will be no "eye test" possible because:
Team 5478: .625/.599/4-7 1-0 vs Team 6857
Team 8943: .680/.591/4-5 0-2 vs Team 6857
Who gets in?
EDIT: Maybe more appropriate question: Who gets in first? I don't think that anyone had Emory (Team 8943) out of the tournament... but Carthage (Team 5478) didn't get picked ahead of them, as was prognosticated here... or at all.
I'd still take the second team. The SOS is real close and they both won 4 against RRO, while playing a lot of those games. I see the winning percentage difference as large enough not to worry about common opponents.
0.055 on the winning percentage is almost 1 1/2 games on a 25 game schedule. That offsets the 1-0 vs 0-2 consideration.
This is probably not the right place for this, but the bracket challenge bombed on me and wouldnt let me finish and I cannot edit them either...what gives? I was down to the final 4 too...
York completely blowing the doors off of Rhode Island College 35-12.
Centre has a two point lead in a high scoring affair in the other game tonight 45-43 over LaGrange at the half.
Quote from: 89Pirate on March 06, 2014, 07:30:01 PM
This is probably not the right place for this, but the bracket challenge bombed on me and wouldnt let me finish and I cannot edit them either...what gives? I was down to the final 4 too...
Send a PM to Pat - he is really good about responding.
Centre wins and York looks like they will finish off an easy win at Rhode Island College.
The first game of the NCAA tournament is history and the Centre Colonels defeat the LaGrange Panthers by a final score of 78-71.
York(NY) defeated Rhode Island College by a 79-54 margin.
Hm. Maybe the CUNYAC got the right team in the tournament after all. :)
Seriously, nice win by York.
Quote from: 89Pirate on March 06, 2014, 07:30:01 PM
This is probably not the right place for this, but the bracket challenge bombed on me and wouldnt let me finish and I cannot edit them either...what gives? I was down to the final 4 too...
When u get to the final picks, the last side u were working on will overlay the other side, leaving only a few letters of the teams to click on, but u can still do it; it happened to me.
Quote from: 89Pirate on March 06, 2014, 07:30:01 PM
This is probably not the right place for this, but the bracket challenge bombed on me and wouldnt let me finish and I cannot edit them either...what gives? I was down to the final 4 too...
I had the same problem. I did send a letter to the Boss. Magically a few minutes later it allowed me to finish the process. Some real strange things happening though, while trying to do the brackets. I barely got mine in on time.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 06, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Hm. Maybe the CUNYAC got the right team in the tournament after all.
Seriously, nice win by York.
I've had York on my super sleeper list all year (it really is them and Johns Hopkins - it was nice to see both winning their tournaments and getting in). I would have had York in the Sweet Sixteen against a lot of teams. Not Amherst, though.
Not sure if I'll get back on here this afternoon or not, but I'll be tweeting from Cabrini tonight. Pat usually retweets anything good I have to say, but I'm @ryanalanscott if you want snarky comments and occasional score updates.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 07, 2014, 09:22:52 AM
Not sure if I'll get back on here this afternoon or not, but I'll be tweeting from Cabrini tonight. Pat usually retweets anything good I have to say, but I'm @ryanalanscott if you want snarky comments and occasional score updates.
Oo, snarky comments? Sign me up!!
Quote from: gordonmann on March 06, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Hm. Maybe the CUNYAC got the right team in the tournament after all. :)
Seriously, nice win by York.
It almost gives Staten Island a little more respect after the fact. York going up to RIC and taking it to them is a bit shocking.
Quote from: NYHOOPS8 on March 07, 2014, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 06, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Hm. Maybe the CUNYAC got the right team in the tournament after all. :)
Seriously, nice win by York.
It almost gives Staten Island a little more respect after the fact. York going up to RIC and taking it to them is a bit shocking.
This is what 7express said in the Little East topic (below) and makes sense. Can't really compare York to CSI in that regard because York didn't get "picked" over CSI, they simply won the tournament. And York beat a team that would have been on the outside of the bubble had they not won their tournament as well. I guess you can say CSI lost to a team that might be better than perceived but in reality, you have to see how the late Pool C's do in order to truly see if CSI belonged or not...
7expressQuoteCan't have this game to compare too though since RIC won the conference tournament. You gotta see how teams like Springfield (vs. Mary Washington), Ohio Wesleyan (vs. St. Norbert), Dickinson (vs. Geneseo), and Bowdoin (vs. Richard Stockton) do. Those were some of the last teams with pool C selections. If any one of those teams completely flops like RIC did tonight (and their all capable too) then you could easily make that case.
EDIT: Read gordonmann's original post wrong and thought it says they got the WRONG team in and was therefore in favor of CSI. I don't know why I read that, probably because it's all people talked about after the brackets were released :o But what I and 7 wrote still stands in general :P
Quote from: lildave678 on March 07, 2014, 11:21:36 AM
Quote from: NYHOOPS8 on March 07, 2014, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 06, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Hm. Maybe the CUNYAC got the right team in the tournament after all. :)
Seriously, nice win by York.
It almost gives Staten Island a little more respect after the fact. York going up to RIC and taking it to them is a bit shocking.
This is what 7express said in the Little East topic (below) and makes sense. Can't really compare York to CSI in that regard because York didn't get "picked" over CSI, they simply won the tournament. And York beat a team that would have been on the outside of the bubble had they not won their tournament as well. I guess you can say CSI lost to a team that might be better than perceived but in reality, you have to see how the late Pool C's do in order to truly see if CSI belonged or not...
7express
QuoteCan't have this game to compare too though since RIC won the conference tournament. You gotta see how teams like Springfield (vs. Mary Washington), Ohio Wesleyan (vs. St. Norbert), Dickinson (vs. Geneseo), and Bowdoin (vs. Richard Stockton) do. Those were some of the last teams with pool C selections. If any one of those teams completely flops like RIC did tonight (and their all capable too) then you could easily make that case.
I was trying to allude to the idea that CSI didn't get picked because of their SOS or didn't have any good wins. Makes you think beating York twice during the regular season is nothing to sneeze at. York going on the road to beat RIC (even if they may be a little down) should give the CUNYAC a little respect which, in turn, gives CSI a bump up in that regard.
Not to take anything away from York because that was a beatdown, but having watched this RIC team for most of the year, the team wasn't very good. Definitely subpar from the tournament teams Bob Walsh usually has. The only thing surprising was the margin of victory York won by, not really surprised that they won. I mean, this is the same team that lost to Lasell & Johnson & Wales.
Who's winning the Scranton game. Live Stats says Hobart 89-79 with a minute to go and d3hoops scoreboard says Scranton 89-79!
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
Who's winning the Scranton game. Live Stats says Hobart 89-79 with a minute to go and d3hoops scoreboard says Scranton 89-79!
D3hoops switched it now....
Maybe that was us, but it might have been the schools. Sometimes schools get it reversed in neutral court games when they aren't really home or away.
Upset alert possibility. Marian trailing by 2 with 6 left to the #1 team in the country
Marian is even with 3 to go. Tillema with 4 fouls. :'( :-[
Webster leads IWU by 1 with 26 seconds left, IWU ball in a timeout.
UPDATE: IWU wins 71-70 while my connection buffers. >:(
Quote from: David Collinge on March 07, 2014, 10:30:23 PM
Webster leads IWU by 1 with 26 seconds left, IWU ball in a timeout.
UPDATE: IWU wins 71-70 while my connection buffers. >:(
That was a VERY scary game that IWU should have won by 20+. My hat is off to Webster.
Point survives 66-64. The key play was when Marian, down 1 with a few seconds left, drove the lane but had a shot blocked by the backs of the heads of the people in the row in front of the video camera. Whatever happened in front of those heads resulted in a Pointers possession and two free throws for Tillema.
Not having the best luck with video tonight. ::)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 07, 2014, 10:39:53 PM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 07, 2014, 10:30:23 PM
Webster leads IWU by 1 with 26 seconds left, IWU ball in a timeout.
UPDATE: IWU wins 71-70 while my connection buffers. >:(
That was a VERY scary game that IWU should have won by 20+. My hat is off to Webster.
Same with Stevens Point.
If Marian hits one of those two last shots in last 5 seconds, would that have been the biggest d3 upset in the tourney ever?
Quote from: GnacBballFan on March 07, 2014, 10:56:59 PM
If Marian hits one of those two last shots in last 5 seconds, would that have been the biggest d3 upset in the tourney ever?
Yes. With the
possible exception of Webster not having a turnover in the final seconds to lose to IWU by one.
Good night to be favorite, huh?
:o :o
Quote from: kiltedbryan on March 07, 2014, 11:02:53 PM
Good night to be favorite, huh?
:o :o
Scary. :o But UWSP and IWU DID both win.
Win and advance; lose and go home.
Wow, almost a night remember. I know Brockport st leading scorer was out, but morrisville st down 20 in second half comes roaring back for the triple ot win at Brockport. Fun night of bball
Washington University dismantled Wilmington, 100-69, in a game that was not as close as the score would suggest. Seriously! In the second half, the Bears shot 67 percent from the field and 66 percent from three point range.
7 Teams in the D3Hoops Top 25 were eliminated tonight in the first round:
#11 Brockport State
#14 WPI
#18 St. Thomas
#20 Randolph-Macon
#21 Scranton
#23 Wittenberg
#25 St. Olaf
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 07, 2014, 11:01:25 PM
Quote from: GnacBballFan on March 07, 2014, 10:56:59 PM
If Marian hits one of those two last shots in last 5 seconds, would that have been the biggest d3 upset in the tourney ever?
Yes. With the possible exception of Webster not having a turnover in the final seconds to lose to IWU by one.
Either one would've been the biggest upset in D3 tourney history. I've been following this tourney since the late '70s, so I'm pretty confident in saying that.
If
both Marian and Webster had won ... well, now that would've been a pretty interesting argument ;). But in the end I'd probably give the edge to the Sabres, based upon the fact that UWSP is currently the unanimous #1 team in the nation according to the only poll that matters, while Illinois Wesleyan is #6.
I had not seen Cabrini play since Walls joined the team. He's a gifted scorer and full of confidence, but he's also a bit sloppy. His presence, though, does allow Walton-Moss to essentially play the post and focus on rebounds, which is helpful. They'd be even better if their PG, Picard, weren't out with a foot injury.
They're better than I gave them credit for. I didn't get to see them run any plays tonight, since it was essentially a free for all, but the eventual matchup with Amherst should be a doozy.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 07, 2014, 11:52:42 PM
I had not seen Cabrini play since Walls joined the team. He's a gifted scorer and full of confidence, but he's also a bit sloppy. His presence, though, does allow Walton-Moss to essentially play the post and focus on rebounds, which is helpful. They'd be even better if their PG, Picard, weren't out with a foot injury.
They're better than I gave them credit for. I didn't get to see them run any plays tonight, since it was essentially a free for all, but the eventual matchup with Amherst should be a doozy.
I also hadn't seen Cabrini since their tournament in MD at the start of the year and was totally blown away by them tonight. Walls and Walton-Moss are a combo not too many teams are going to be able to stop. My only concern is what happens when Cabrini plays a team that will make them play defense for 40 minutes? I think they fall asleep sometimes on D because they can score so easily. Cabrini is still a scary, scary team.
Or play against a team that plays defense for40 minutes...
Quote from: WUH on March 07, 2014, 11:12:04 PM
Washington University dismantled Wilmington, 100-69, in a game that was not as close as the score would suggest. Seriously! In the second half, the Bears shot 67 percent from the field and 66 percent from three point range.
I thought Wilmington's press was very good and gave Wash U a lot of trouble getting the ball in-bounds or past mid-court many times. But in the end Wash U did the two things they do best, defend well and get good shots and make them. Wilmington's best player (and their conference's POY) got in early foul trouble and sat most of the first half, then got two quick fouls in the 2nd half. He didn't sit as much in the 2nd half and actually played better, both offensively and defensively, when he wasn't trying to defend so tenaciously. But there is nothing he could have done to alter the outcome of the game. And I agree that it really wasn't as close as the final score. There were some Calvin folks (I think a couple of players included) sitting in front of me who kept shaking their heads in amazement at some of the plays Wash U made.
Quote from: CardsFan on March 08, 2014, 12:50:07 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 07, 2014, 11:52:42 PM
I had not seen Cabrini play since Walls joined the team. He's a gifted scorer and full of confidence, but he's also a bit sloppy. His presence, though, does allow Walton-Moss to essentially play the post and focus on rebounds, which is helpful. They'd be even better if their PG, Picard, weren't out with a foot injury.
They're better than I gave them credit for. I didn't get to see them run any plays tonight, since it was essentially a free for all, but the eventual matchup with Amherst should be a doozy.
I also hadn't seen Cabrini since their tournament in MD at the start of the year and was totally blown away by them tonight. Walls and Walton-Moss are a combo not too many teams are going to be able to stop. My only concern is what happens when Cabrini plays a team that will make them play defense for 40 minutes? I think they fall asleep sometimes on D because they can score so easily. Cabrini is still a scary, scary team.
Walton-Moss plays defense, and he'll be on his game tonight. Walls is talented, moreso than he looks. I'm not sure he'd play well against a good defensive team, but he's good enough to occupy a defender - and Rafferty is no slouch as a #3 option.
It's a strong team, but they'll struggle against a good defensive unit and one with good enough ball handling to slow the pace down and get the ball inside.
I'm looking forward to an Amherst-Cabrini match-up. I'm rooting for the Amherst women tonight, so it will be close enough for me to attend in person.
Why is the York/Amherst game at 3 pm while all the other games are later tonight? Hardly seems fair to York who traveled and plated Thursday.
Woods is 5 of 23, but York is only down 5 with 8 minutes to go. Crazy day. Amherst is not looking in sync.
Amherst had a real scare, but they pulled away in the last couple minutes to win. If Woods had had even a mediocre game, by this standards, York might have gotten the upset today. Amherst is not the same without Connor Green.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 08, 2014, 04:18:50 PM
Woods is 5 of 23, but York is only down 5 with 8 minutes to go. Crazy day. Amherst is not looking in sync.
Goodness... pretty hard to watch York here at crunch time. They didn't seem to have much of a sense of urgency, even though they could have cut the lead to 2, and they're letting Toomey just dribble for several seconds before fouling...
I mean, kudos getting that close... and maybe they were just tired? I don't know... but it was 52-49 Amherst with 3:39 left and York shooting a FT (which they missed) and Amherst outscored them 11-2 to end the game... and York didn't seem to get even a very good shot.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 08, 2014, 10:39:37 AM
Why is the York/Amherst game at 3 pm while all the other games are later tonight? Hardly seems fair to York who traveled and plated Thursday.
Perhaps to send a message to the committee that they indeed could have played the women's regional there this weekend, the way it should have been.
I just realized, if Dickinson beats Wooster, that's more than likely an extra flight for the committee to worry about. Of the teams left playing, only Behrend is within 500 miles.
Amherst women won today. Is it a done deal that they'll be hosting next week or is there still some question?
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
TGHIJGSTO!!!
I think it's safe to say last year for Morrisville wasn't a fluke. Back to the regional semifinals for them.
All the remaining games in the Midwest brackets are being played within 5 point margins at the moment.
Va Wesleyan 79 Wesley 74
I'm looking at hosting for next weekend:
One bracket we've got Amherst, Plattsburgh, Stockton, and Morrisville. The Amherst women did win. I don't know if they're a lock to host or not. If they don't, Amherst is the easy choice here. Otherwise, Stockton is next choice, right?
Williams, Albertus Magnus, Mary Washington, and Virginia Wesleyan. I'm pretty sure Williams and VWC are too far apart to host without a flight. Magnus and Mary Washington are both within 500 miles of everyone - I'd think Mary Washington has the edge there (what with Albertus' weak regional ranking).
On the other side, there's two sure fire flights to Point (presumably Point.
But the interesting one is the wrench Dickinson throws into things. They're flying to any host site in the Midwest. Fun times.
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
Stockton knocks off Cabrini? Are you seriopus?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
Stockton knocks off Cabrini? Are you seriopus?
Its really at this point I wish someone hadn't been banned. The banter alone would be worth some entertainment, or enturnment
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 09:17:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
Stockton knocks off Cabrini? Are you seriopus?
Its really at this point I wish someone hadn't been banned. The banter alone would be worth some entertainment, or enturnment
And it would've been supersweet.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 08, 2014, 09:03:11 PM
I'm looking at hosting for next weekend:
One bracket we've got Amherst, Plattsburgh, Stockton, and Morrisville. The Amherst women did win. I don't know if they're a lock to host or not. If they don't, Amherst is the easy choice here. Otherwise, Stockton is next choice, right?
Williams, Albertus Magnus, Mary Washington, and Virginia Wesleyan. I'm pretty sure Williams and VWC are too far apart to host without a flight. Magnus and Mary Washington are both within 500 miles of everyone - I'd think Mary Washington has the edge there (what with Albertus' weak regional ranking).
On the other side, there's two sure fire flights to Point (presumably Point.
But the interesting one is the wrench Dickinson throws into things. They're flying to any host site in the Midwest. Fun times.
The Tufts women is in that Amherst bracket. I think not only is Tufts higher in the RR's Tufts went 2-0 vs. Amherst in the season, and won the NESCAC regular season and tournament championship, so Tufts is getting that pod, which leave the Amherst men free.
Whitworth and TX-Dallas going to OT and I can't get either the audio or the video links to work.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 08, 2014, 09:44:02 PM
Whitworth and TX-Dallas going to OT and I can't get either the audio or the video links to work.
That's too bad because its excellent. Great comeback by UTD, I had given up on them for dead.
Whitworth up 2 with 9 seconds left.
WOW what a finish. Dallas 3 pointer at the buzzer to win by 1 after a Whitworth missed free throw.
They're reviewing the call to make sure it beat the buzzer. I think it's good.
It's officially good. Dallas wins 78-77.
Quote from: 7express on March 08, 2014, 09:59:49 PM
Whitworth up 2 with 9 seconds left.
Livestats says TXD hit a three at the buzzer to win.
Wow that was something
UTD 78 Whitworth 77 on buzzer beating 3, tentatively will be reviewed.....good
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 10:05:46 PM
Wow that was something
UTD 78 Whitworth 77 on buzzer beating 3, tentatively will be reviewed
Review over... UT-Dallas gets the win. What a finish
Huge choke job by the Pirates. That's a real bummer for my fantasy team too...
Oh well, not as good of a team as they've had the past few years. I think sweet 16 was the realistic expectation. Congrats to UTD! They battled coming back from down 15 and giving themselves a shot at the end. Foul differential was brutal but Whitworth didn't play like a team who deserved to win at the end of the second half and during the last 30 seconds of OT.
Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 08, 2014, 09:16:48 AM
I thought Wilmington's press was very good and gave Wash U a lot of trouble getting the ball in-bounds or past mid-court many times. [...]
There were some Calvin folks (I think a couple of players included) sitting in front of me who kept shaking their heads in amazement at some of the plays Wash U made.
I could not disagree more on the quality of the Wilimington press. Washington University rarely struggles with the press and the turnovers mostly poor passes inside.
The Calvin players must have had fun giving it back to Washington tonight. The Knights could not miss. And, their defense was tremendous tonight, bolstered by a let them play approach to officiating. Congratulations to Calvin!
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 09:17:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
Stockton knocks off Cabrini? Are you seriopus?
Its really at this point I wish someone hadn't been banned. The banter alone would be worth some entertainment, or enturnment
Hum, maybe Pat would re-instate to liven things up Hum, on second thought No
Here are my predicted 4 hosts next weekend:
Upper left: Stevens Point. Pretty easy with 2 flights coming into Wisconsin, it was either going to be @ Stevens Point or Whitewater, and SP definitely has the better numbers than the Warhawks. Plus Whitewater is in pretty good position to host the women's sectionals (the women have priority next round) which takes the men out of the running anyways
Bottom left: Illinois Wesleyan. Due to Dickinson winning @ Wooster they were guaranteed to fly out west, and with Wash U losing to Calvin, IWU can stay at the Shirk another weekend. Would've been a lot more difficult had IWU & Wash U both won. Still think it would've been at IWU in that case, however.
Upper right: Another easy choice, and that's @ Amherst. Unless the NCAA returns the favor and screws the men's team and sends them to Stockton instead.
Bottom right: Mary Washington. The only difficult one. Williams & Va Wesleyan are the 2 that most likely deserve it, but since the NCAA has to fly 3 teams this round (Emory & Dallas up to Wisconsin and now Dickinson out to IWU), they ain't gonna be paying for anymore flights, and Va Wes to Williams is more than 500 miles. Mary Washington & Albertus are the only 2 schools that fall within 500 miles of all others, so those will be the only 2 places this sectional will be held, and Mary Washington gets it because of Albertus's low numbers in the rankings.
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 09:17:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
Cabrini in some trouble with Richard Stockton
Stockton knocks off Cabrini? Are you seriopus?
Its really at this point I wish someone hadn't been banned. The banter alone would be worth some entertainment, or enturnment
With the abuse he heaped on everyone with a D3sports.com email address he could find, there is no chance of him coming back. If his email address was anything other than AOL, I'd have reported him to his ISP, because, frankly, it was actionable.
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 08, 2014, 10:06:53 PM
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2014, 10:05:46 PM
Wow that was something
UTD 78 Whitworth 77 on buzzer beating 3, tentatively will be reviewed
Review over... UT-Dallas gets the win. What a finish
For those who haven't seen video of this shot:
http://www.d3hoops.com/buzzerbeaters/2013-14/index
Quote from: WUH on March 08, 2014, 10:20:43 PM
Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 08, 2014, 09:16:48 AM
I thought Wilmington's press was very good and gave Wash U a lot of trouble getting the ball in-bounds or past mid-court many times. [...]
There were some Calvin folks (I think a couple of players included) sitting in front of me who kept shaking their heads in amazement at some of the plays Wash U made.
I could not disagree more on the quality of the Wilimington press. Washington University rarely struggles with the press and the turnovers mostly poor passes inside.
The Calvin players must have had fun giving it back to Washington tonight. The Knights could not miss. And, their defense was tremendous tonight, bolstered by a let them play approach to officiating. Congratulations to Calvin!
Well, yes, Wash U did manage to get the ball past mid court just under10 seconds every time, but not without having to work pretty hard to do so. I realize a press is most effective if it actually results in turnovers, but I still think Wilmington's press was good and it successfully cut time off the shot clock for Wash U. Wilmington just wasn't good enough defensively once Wash U got into the half court.
All this is moot now since Wash U got beat last night.
Pat, are their archives of the games anywhere of the past two days? As an albertus fan I was at the games but would like to view the game. I know our Gnac title video was avl after the game was done. Also I would like to watch Williams. Thanks in advance
Quote from: y_jack_lok on March 09, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
Well, yes, Wash U did manage to get the ball past mid court just under10 seconds every time, but not without having to work pretty hard to do so. I realize a press is most effective if it actually results in turnovers, but I still think Wilmington's press was good and it successfully cut time off the shot clock for Wash U. Wilmington just wasn't good enough defensively once Wash U got into the half court.
All this is moot now since Wash U got beat last night.
I guess the point was moot the moment the game had been decided. Honestly, I am not sure Wilmington had the horses to run the press as much as they did. The looked tired in the second half. I think the 60 or so points (on 67 percent shooting) in the second half and the above average assists statistics speaks for itself.
Quote from: GnacBballFan on March 09, 2014, 11:22:53 AM
Pat, are their archives of the games anywhere of the past two days? As an albertus fan I was at the games but would like to view the game. I know our Gnac title video was avl after the game was done. Also I would like to watch Williams. Thanks in advance
Technically archives of NCAA tournament games are not available. According to the media guidelines, these can't be available as archives due to regulations with NCAA/Turner Sports/CBS Sports/whomever... yes, to cut off the next question, we are aware that schools have games available online, but I have not seen anything in any documentation that actually allows this. We aren't going to make games we helped produce available so if it does come up in question we aren't to blame or going against the guidelines.
Ok thanks
Quote from: 7express on March 09, 2014, 01:53:55 AM
Bottom left: Illinois Wesleyan. Due to Dickinson winning @ Wooster they were guaranteed to fly out west, and with Wash U losing to Calvin, IWU can stay at the Shirk another weekend. Would've been a lot more difficult had IWU & Wash U both won. Still think it would've been at IWU in that case, however.
I think it would've been at Wash U. The Bears were ranked #1 in the Midwest Region throughout the ranking process, and I can't imagine that they would've lost that status in the secret final ranking, since they kept winning right through the end of the regular season.
I don't have it solid... but Wash U didn't lose #1 from everything I have been told.
Wash U was clearly the #1 seed in the Midwest heading into the tournament. I don't think there is any doubt the sectional would have been in St. Louis had the Bears won.
Any thoughts on the Williams bracket? I feel like the obvious favorites for the other 3 are the hosts, but that one - I really think any of the four teams could come out of it.
Williams - Got dropped by Amherst three times and lost the first game of the year by 1. Otherwise, perfect year. Wins vs. Springfield, Bowdoin, Middlebury (2x). But none against what I would consider top 25 teams and I don't know if they'll run this group.
Albertus Magnus, P. I. - Lost only 1 D3 games (St Joseph), beat SUNY Purchase twice, WPI. Williams will be their biggest test.
Va Wesleyan - Have beaten good teams (Emory, Wesley, Guilford), but lost to Mary Washington, Randolph Macon, Chris Newport) and a few of lesser quality. Seem to be hitting their stride.
Mary Washington - Beat Va. Wesleyan, Springfield, St. Mary (2x), split with Chris Newport and lost twice to Wesley.
Personally, I'm going Mary Washington over Va. Wesleyan and Albertus Magnus over Williams and then MW to win the group.
The Williams bracket could be a revelation. Having now seen a bunch of clips of Albertus in action, it will take a great game from Williams to beat them. Williams is getting better as the season moves to its' close, but Albertus appears to be at least a cut above Williams, or any other D3 I've seen, in terms of athleticism, and individual play. I don't know how good a team they are, but if they are well coached, they could get to the final four, and maybe even win it all.
Virginia Wesleyan and Mary Washington are good teams, but good in the same way as Williams is good. Those three teams are a toss up. Albertus may be a true Cinderella, that might be a very special team. I haven't seen enough of them to have a firm opinion yet, but it will be worth watching closely.
I think whoever wins the Albertus/Williams game ends up winning that half. Va Wes is playing on a neutral court and has been so inconsistent this year. They have been playing well the last couple weeks though, so maybe Woodmere & the seniors turned on the switch. MW started the season well, but slid at the end in February there, before rebounding and winning the CAC tournament. Williams has 1 loss to a team not named Amherst this year.....which was on the opening night of the season, and Albertus only has 2 losses, 1 of which was by 3 to a division 1 team. Those to me look like the 2 best teams.
I thought Magnus was good this year, but I still haven't seen them play games against good teams (because I haven't seen the games, not because they don't exist). I think Mary Washington is playing very strong to end the season. Williams has been less than impressive.
I think Albertus - Mary Washington for the elite eight.
I'd love to get down there, but 2.5 hours might be pushing it.
If everyone could take some time to VOTE FOR BRAD FORD NAZARETH for the D3 All Star game. he is one of my best friends and he really deserves this honor. Here is the link http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2014/03/nabc-all-star-voting
I like My VWC Marlins to come out of that pod. They are hitting their stride now. They are back to full strength. were missing 2 starters in the double OT loss earlier this year to mary washington. DJ Woodmore is truly a special player. I look for them to beat Mary wash and Williams to win and VWC play against williams for the 3rd time in 4 years in the sweet 16. 3rd Time will be the charm for the marlins. Lets Go VWC!!!
I love the VWC program, and it sure would be fun for Williams to go at it again with VWC. However, both teams have more pressing business at the moment!
I think VWC will come out focused this weekend. We owe MW payback for the game in December and we just can't get over that Williams hump! VWC had been inconsistent at times earlier in the year but they seem to be playing their best ball at the right time. We should have a good contingent of fans since the game is still in VA so hopefully the crowd will be more neutral than it was in the past 3 years at this time, which will hopefully make for a better result (Williams twice, UW-Whitewater in 2012). I am predicting a VWC/Williams rematch. Williams has a D-1 sized frontline so the Marlins will have to continue to be hot from 3 to neutralize that
As an optimist, I choose to view IWU hosting a sectional as a good omen. The last time they hosted a sectional was 1997. That was also the year of their (so far) only national title. ;D
To win the title you have to be good, of course, but you also have to have good luck. In 1997 we faced RHIT in the second round. Earlier in the season, we beat them by 25. In round two it took an off-balance, hand-in-the-face shot by Bryan Crabtree to win by one point. Rarely does a team win the title without a game similar to that somewhere along the line. IMO the 1997 Titans are probably not even in the top five Titan teams, all time; this one probably wouldn't be either.
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
With the way SP has played the first 2 games I'd say Stevens Point because Whitewater isn't Central or Marian plus I think that's a pretty big rivalry game in the WIAC. However, with the sheer quality of all 4 teams, Mary Washington is the least likely, and that's who I voted for. With all due respect to Whitewater, Dallas, Calvin, Wheaton, Plattsburgh & Stockton, the home teams are clearly the best team of those quintuplets, while MW is probably only the 3rd or possibly even 4th best team in their half.
I'm not confident at all in Point's ability to get to the Final Four. I'm a forever pessimist when it comes to the Pointers and the way they've played the first two games hasn't helped my minimal confidence. Admittedly, I always lowball my expectations for them, so maybe they will get out of this sectional. Point easily lost to Marian and were in a battle with Central. Hass carried Point in the 1st game and Heuer in the 2nd. Tillema hasn't done much offensively, but has done well on the boards and dishing out assists. I guess the optimist could say that he's due for a huge game. I know very little about Emory, but even if we get past them, a 4th date with Whitewater may loom. I am deathly afraid of playing them again. We won the 1st game by double digits. However we quickly blew a 20-point halftime lead and even though we were up double-digits most of the 2nd half, it wasn't comfortable. We lost in OT down there and then blew them out in the WIAC tourney final. I sense a battle if both make it past Friday night.
Quote from: 7express on March 12, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
With the way SP has played the first 2 games I'd say Stevens Point because Whitewater isn't Central or Marian plus I think that's a pretty big rivalry game in the WIAC. However, with the sheer quality of all 4 teams, Mary Washington is the least likely, and that's who I voted for. With all due respect to Whitewater, Dallas, Calvin, Wheaton, Plattsburgh & Stockton, the home teams are clearly the best team of those quintuplets, while MW is probably only the 3rd or possibly even 4th best team in their half.
You sure about that?
Stolen from the WIAC page, which was stolen from the MIAA page.
Quote from: John Gleich on March 10, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
Stolen from the MIAA page:
This is all per Massey, rankings in parens:
Probabilities of going to Final Four:
IWU (3) 49.2%
Wheaton (6) 32.5%
Calvin (9) 12.0%
Dickinson (25) 6.3%
Wisconsin-Stevens Point (1) 67.8%
Wisconsin-Whitewater (2) 24.3%
Texas-Dallas (10) 5.9%
Emory (34) 2.1%
Amherst (7) 52.1%
Richard Stockton (12) 30.3%
Plattsburgh State (11) 17.0%
Morrisville State (177) 0.6%
Mary Washington (14) 43.1%
Williams (17) 21.9%
Virginia Wesleyan (21) 17.8%
Albertus Magnus (18) 17.1%
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: 7express on March 12, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
With the way SP has played the first 2 games I'd say Stevens Point because Whitewater isn't Central or Marian plus I think that's a pretty big rivalry game in the WIAC. However, with the sheer quality of all 4 teams, Mary Washington is the least likely, and that's who I voted for. With all due respect to Whitewater, Dallas, Calvin, Wheaton, Plattsburgh & Stockton, the home teams are clearly the best team of those quintuplets, while MW is probably only the 3rd or possibly even 4th best team in their half.
You sure about that?
Stolen from the WIAC page, which was stolen from the MIAA page.
Quote from: John Gleich on March 10, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
Stolen from the MIAA page:
This is all per Massey, rankings in parens:
Probabilities of going to Final Four:
IWU (3) 49.2%
Wheaton (6) 32.5%
Calvin (9) 12.0%
Dickinson (25) 6.3%
Wisconsin-Stevens Point (1) 67.8%
Wisconsin-Whitewater (2) 24.3%
Texas-Dallas (10) 5.9%
Emory (34) 2.1%
Amherst (7) 52.1%
Richard Stockton (12) 30.3%
Plattsburgh State (11) 17.0%
Morrisville State (177) 0.6%
Mary Washington (14) 43.1%
Williams (17) 21.9%
Virginia Wesleyan (21) 17.8%
Albertus Magnus (18) 17.1%
I'd agree with 7express. I think the MW/VaWes is a toss-up (on a neutral court, I'd favor VaWes), but I think the FF team from that sectional is the winner of AM/Williams.
And except for the bean-counters, the sectional should have been at Williams, in which case I'd call them the definite favorite. That's who I had on my bracket, before we knew the sectional hosts.
I've had some definite blips early in the tourney, but my FF of UWSP, IWU, Amherst, and Williams are all still alive (I have UWSP over Amherst in the title game.)
Williams has to be the favorite. They will be far and away the best D3 team AM have played all season. I'm sure AM is very good and their tempo could hurt Williams but if it slows down I think AM will be in trouble.
VWC/UMW does seem like a toss-up. Saw UMW twice in their conference tourney and was very impressed. I just feel their lack of height is going to hurt them at some point.
A week ago I would have agreed with you, but AM has been very impressive in beating both WPI and then Purchase on their home court. Because of my bracket, I hope Williams will win, but I'm no longer so confident.
I don't really know what to make of AM. They are clearly a good team and no one in their league can touch them, but is that more about AM or their other league teams? Purchase had a good season and they were at home, but like AM I'm not sure how much they were challenged during the season.
It's what happened to Cabrini last weekend. Stockton was the best team they played all season and Cabrini looked panicked the longer that game went and they couldn't pull away. I just feel Williams has been challenged more during the season (arguments over NESCAC depth notwithstanding) than AM.
I've got Williams as a FF team so I gotta ride with them.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
This data sounds familiar:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
Quote from: CardsFan on March 12, 2014, 10:37:28 PM
I don't really know what to make of AM. They are clearly a good team and no one in their league can touch them, but is that more about AM or their other league teams? Purchase had a good season and they were at home, but like AM I'm not sure how much they were challenged during the season.
It's what happened to Cabrini last weekend. Stockton was the best team they played all season and Cabrini looked panicked the longer that game went and they couldn't pull away. I just feel Williams has been challenged more during the season (arguments over NESCAC depth notwithstanding) than AM.
I've got Williams as a FF team so I gotta ride with them.
Gnac was weak as usual. Except for Johnson and Wales who I think was underrated all yr(just won the ecac in New England). Albertus seems to step it up a notch when they play meaningful games(d1 central who they probably beat if eian Davis doesn't cramp up with one point lead under a minute. Really he couldn't walk and it became 5 on 4 during centrals winning possession bucket. Also against JWU and all postseason.) I haven't seen Williams play, but if they aren't as strong as WPI defensively then albertus is going to put up 80-90. Just don't know if albertus clamps down like they have been all postseason. I give Williams a slight edge, but on a neutral court I really think albertus has a great shot at winning. If albertus gets into a rhythm early and Williams starts out slow like they did against Gordon, well let's just say I don't see albertus giving up a lead if they get comfy
And as good as WPI's defense was, and it was good, albertus still scored 29 in the first 11 mins of play until pg eian Davis exited with his third foul. Then albertus didn't hit a field goal for about another 7 mins I believe. If fouls aren't a problem early is gonna be a scoring slugfest
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 08:30:24 PM
while MW is probably only the 3rd or possibly even 4th best team in their half.
You sure about that?
Stolen from the WIAC page, which was stolen from the MIAA page.
Quote from: John Gleich on March 10, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
Stolen from the MIAA page:
This is all per Massey, rankings in parens:
Probabilities of going to Final Four:
IWU (3) 49.2%
Wheaton (6) 32.5%
Calvin (9) 12.0%
Dickinson (25) 6.3%
Wisconsin-Stevens Point (1) 67.8%
Wisconsin-Whitewater (2) 24.3%
Texas-Dallas (10) 5.9%
Emory (34) 2.1%
Amherst (7) 52.1%
Richard Stockton (12) 30.3%
Plattsburgh State (11) 17.0%
Morrisville State (177) 0.6%
Mary Washington (14) 43.1%
Williams (17) 21.9%
Virginia Wesleyan (21) 17.8%
Albertus Magnus (18) 17.1%
Yah, I agree. If you take the poll's into consideration, they are the 3rd best team. if you disregard the poll's I think Va Wesleyan has more talent. If that game was taking place on a neutral court, I would easily pick Va Wesleyan to advance.
I do think Mary Washington is a strong team, but the rest of their group is also strong. Wheaton may be a bigger threat to IWU than some of the other second best teams are to the top team in each bracket, but there are also a number of teams with little chance. Each of those teams in the Mary Washington could win and few would be surprised. Albertus would obviously be the most surprising, but they're no Morrisville State.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 12, 2014, 11:01:51 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
This data sounds familiar:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
And sometimes posters like to read information on their own team's website. :P ;)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2014, 09:10:14 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 12, 2014, 11:01:51 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
I was reading the Pointer preview and it said aince 2000 at least one sectional host has made it to the Final Four but all four have never made it. So I posed the question as a poll.
This data sounds familiar:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
And sometimes posters like to read information on their own team's website. :P ;)
Good thing those schools are reading ours, then. :)
modified for formatting, incredibly
Thanks! I saw that I had blown it earlier and was so ashamed I couldn't bring myself to fix it. :)
Any thoughts and predictions for tonight?
I will start with the Stevens Point sectional.
Its going to he another close game for Point. Looks like Emory knows how to score with the syarters averaging 22, 17, 10, 10 and 7 points. They also bring some height with 6'8, 6'5 and 6'5. As usual, Point may have trouble with that. Outside shooting will be key for Point. Tillema is due for a huge game and Heuer can't get into foul trouble. Its going down to the wire in another single-digit game with Point again pulling out a slim win.
I know little about UT-Dallas as well. From what I read, Whitworth was the toughest game for them and they needed a miracle to pull that one out. Whitewater is clicking on all cylinders and I see them winning easily, pushing a 15-20 point margin victory.
Emory didn't exactly dominate a weaker-than-usual UAA this year. They rely heavily on two guys, but two guys who aren't as good as WIAC's big two. They received a very favorable draw in the tourney. Stevens Point is at home and I have a feeling they already received their wake-up call in the tourney. I think they come out energized, and that both they and Whitewater win by 15-20 setting up the expected WIAC showdown.
Similarly I like both CCIW teams. I thought Wooster was a bit overrated all season. They just didn't have the interior presence Wooster teams typically have, and I thought Dickinson would beat them (why I picked Wixted for the fantasy team, although I should have picked Honig!). Dickinson is a solid team, but Wheaton is on fire right now, and should win a close game. I think Calvin-IWU is also a close game but IWU playing at home with massive crowd support is too tough.
Amherst -- Plattsburgh really depends on whether Connor Green, who missed the first Amherst tourney game with an ankle injury, is healthy. If he plays and is not limited I like Amherst by about 10-12. If Green is out then it's a true toss-up. I'm guessing he plays after a week and a half to rest it, but who knows. Stockton by double digits setting up a good battle for Salem.
Toughest to call is the fourth bracket. Two really even match-ups. I think despite playing on the road VWU should have a lot of fan support playing in Virginia. They have a ton of tourney experience, the best player on the floor in Woodmore, and a bit more interior muscle than Mary Washington. I like them to win by about 4-5 in a game that goes down to the wire.
Of course I have to pick Williams over AMC, but I think that will also be a really, really close game. Williams has more guys with the ability to score/shoot the ball than AMC has faced all year. I think that AMC will struggle to defend Williams' balanced offense system where any of the top six guys can go off at any particular time, and where the offense generates a lot of good looks. I have a hunch Duncan Robinson is due for a break-out game in his third NCAA game. On the other hand Williams has struggled with quickness all season -- the four Eph losses have been to teams with very quick players 1 through 4, and the Ephs had trouble at times defending Mitchell, which was not a great team but also had a quickness advantage at most positions. AMC likewise is a much quicker, more dynamic one-one-on team than Williams. Davis and Watson will present big match-up problems for the Ephs. If either team's lone dependable big guy gets into early foul trouble, that could also swing the contest. I think the Ephs' tourney experience and balance will win the day as they eek out a close victory, but it could go either way.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 14, 2014, 10:07:22 AM
I think Calvin-IWU is also a close game but IWU playing at home with massive crowd support is too tough.
I think that is muted to a significant degree--Calvin's players have had exposure to intense crowd support at opposing teams' courts, and Calvin's fans travel pretty well, too. Whatever point differential you give for home vs. away should be cut in half, at least.
I believe its also the end of spring break at IWU
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2014, 02:02:43 PM
I believe its also the end of spring break at IWU
Correct - end of spring break for Wheaton and Dickinson also. Large crowds are not going to bother Calvin, Wheaton or IWU. Dickinson might be another story line.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 14, 2014, 09:17:44 AM
Any thoughts and predictions for tonight?
I will start with the Stevens Point sectional.
Its going to he another close game for Point. Looks like Emory knows how to score with the syarters averaging 22, 17, 10, 10 and 7 points. They also bring some height with 6'8, 6'5 and 6'5. As usual, Point may have trouble with that. Outside shooting will be key for Point. Tillema is due for a huge game and Heuer can't get into foul trouble. Its going down to the wire in another single-digit game with Point again pulling out a slim win.
I know little about UT-Dallas as well. From what I read, Whitworth was the toughest game for them and they needed a miracle to pull that one out. Whitewater is clicking on all cylinders and I see them winning easily, pushing a 15-20 point margin victory.
I've got some thoughts/stat analysis on the WIAC page for Emory/SP.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 14, 2014, 09:17:44 AM
Any thoughts and predictions for tonight?
I will start with the Stevens Point sectional.
Its going to he another close game for Point. Looks like Emory knows how to score with the syarters averaging 22, 17, 10, 10 and 7 points. They also bring some height with 6'8, 6'5 and 6'5. As usual, Point may have trouble with that.
If Emory doesn't have the services of 6'5, 210 senior forward Jake Davis (22.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg), it's all academic: UWSP will win in a walkover. Davis sat out last Saturday's win over Centre -- some sort of injury or illness, most likely -- and he obviously wasn't missed, but UWSP is a completely different animal than Centre. Davis, who has garnered nearly 2,000 points in his career, is a quiet assassin; you don't think he's all that and a bag of chips while you're watching Emory, and then you check the stat sheet at the end of the game and you find out that he'd wound up being the game's high scorer. He's an outstanding shooter who can also take it to the hole, which opens up his free-throw shooting possibilities (he averages 88% from the line).
I think that Emory's a significant underdog even with Davis. Without him? Forget it.
Just got home from dinner. Apparently Morrisville was able to dictate tempo pretty well. No way Richard Stockton wants to play a game in the 80s. A testament to their talent that they're still in it.
Morrisville State - our first Elite 8 team. How many people called that one on their bracket??
Does this mean Williams is better than Central Connecticut?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2014, 07:12:40 PM
Morrisville State - our first Elite 8 team. How many people called that one on their bracket??
No one in the fantasy league. Morrisville players went undrafted and no team picked any of their players after the draft either. Wow.
Whos winning the Wheaton game? Live stats say Dickinson, scoreboard says Wheaton.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 14, 2014, 07:54:12 PM
Whos winning the Wheaton game? Live stats say Dickinson, scoreboard says Wheaton.
According to the video of the game, it's Dickinson 69-58 with 5:39 left in the game
Dickinson 81
Wheaton 71
Point goes down in OT. Emory to the Elite Eight.
I'll just say it. Point did not look very good in this tournament. None of their games have been stellar. Whitewater, to me, is the class of this thing so far. There are some good teams out there still, but this isn't a total surprise to me (maybe the team doing it, but not Point being upset).
The score from Stevens Point: 76-73!
Jake Davis with the clutch three pointer to win the game with three seconds left.
Congratulations to the one person who picked Stevens Point in the poll above.
Well, so much for all the scorn over Emory deserving a bye!
Ditto, WUH. Michael Florin played very well in the OT, and Emory moved the ball with great crispness and speed to find the open shooter. Very proud of the Eagles!!
I'm a pessimist and I usually want to be wrong. :'(
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 14, 2014, 11:10:26 PM
Well, so much for all the scorn over Emory deserving a bye!
So Emory beats Stevens Point and I thought Chicago was clearly better than Emory this year. What do I do with my poster's poll ballot in two weeks?
My picks were uniformly awful today. Maybe I should pick Mary Washington tomorrow, if I want the Ephs to win, at least! Wow, lots of crazy results, that's what makes it fun, I guess. After looking so dominant all season, what happened to Stevens Point in the tourney? What a shocker.
Well the #1 team in the country lost today and by that I mean Richard Stocton of course.
Quote from: madzillagd on March 14, 2014, 11:23:41 PM
Well the #1 team in the country lost today and by that I mean Richard Stocton of course.
Whole tournament is TGHIJGSTO now.
Just got back from Fredericksburg...I have to thank VWC and UMW for playing a high-level game worthy of the Sweet 16...unlike the sideshow that was the Williams vs. Albertus Magnus game. That game had everything: players talking trash to each other, players talking trash to the opposing coaches, coaches yelling at opposing players, a RIDICULOUS amount of hand-checking from AMC, flagrant fouls.
The AMC coaching staff exploded at every foul call for the final 35 minutes of that game, the AMC coach made numerous vows to write down everyone's name and report them all. I would like to follow the GNAC for a season now and see if they allow AMC to play defense that way all season, because they seemed shocked that they weren't allowed to body and hand-check the opposing team tonight. It's hard to take complaints about officiating seriously when the other team is winning by 20 and shooting 56%.
All that being said, AMC PG Eian Davis is a very talented player, but he would be much better if he would stop worrying about the officials. AMC is a good team, but tonight showed that beating up on GNAC teams isn't going to get them ready for the really great teams.
AMC did a horrific job of adjusting to the refs... who while calling the game maybe a bit tight... were consistent.
Yeah. Not a good sign when Ljuljdjuraj fouls out in 16 minutes! He probably didn't even need to shower after the game.
Cardsfan, albertus beat wpi and purchase back to back nights. They weren't ready for Williams, but I think the gnac statement is a bit much. Let's not forget they beat two quality teams to get to the sweet 16. I just think they ran into one of the 5 best teams in the country. Refs called I tight but they were consistent
Quote from: GnacBballFan on March 15, 2014, 11:24:42 AM
Cardsfan, albertus beat wpi and purchase back to back nights. They weren't ready for Williams, but I think the gnac statement is a bit much. Let's not forget they beat two quality teams to get to the sweet 16. I just think they ran into one of the 5 best teams in the country. Refs called I tight but they were consistent
As I said, AMC is a good team. They simply seemed overmatched against Williams, which is not an insult since many teams would be. My point about the GNAC is that being the far and away best team in a weak conference isn't always a good thing. Scranton was the hands-down best team in the Landmark and they went home in the 1st Round.
So, ummmm, the system isn't working for Mary Washington so far (4 for 28 from 3 in the first half, 3 for 8 from inside the 3).
Williams and Amherst destined for another meeting. Would have been great to have them on opposite sides of the bracket.
I was going to watch the IWU game because the guy doing the Whitewater call is a bit overly exuberant. However, that may be the only close game here by 8:30.
Quote from: bopol on March 15, 2014, 07:48:04 PM
So, ummmm, the system isn't working for Mary Washington so far (4 for 28 from 3 in the first half, 3 for 8 from inside the 3).
I didn't realize Grinnell made the tournament. 5-42 from 3-point range.
Emory is at it again...down by 1 to Whitewater at halftime!
Just watched the ESPN documentary on NC State's national championship run. Emory is looking like the Wolfpack in the last couple of nights...
Despite all the surprises early on, I don't think anyone would be too terribly shocked by a Final Four of Williams, Amherst, IWU, and Whitewater. Everyone one of those teams belongs and I could see any of them taking home the trophy.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 15, 2014, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: bopol on March 15, 2014, 07:48:04 PM
So, ummmm, the system isn't working for Mary Washington so far (4 for 28 from 3 in the first half, 3 for 8 from inside the 3).
I didn't realize Grinnell made the tournament. 5-42 from 3-point range.
I was starting to feel bad for the rims.
Agreed, Hoops Fan. I felt all year that Williams and in particular Amherst were a bit underrated, and a few teams ahead of them just hadn't looked quite as impressive (Wooster, St. Norbert, and Wash U. simply didn't have close to Amherst's talent level, for example).
I really think that, at worst, four of the best five teams in the country are playing in the Final Four, and the way Stevens Point has been playing of late, it really does seem like the best four. All of them are very balanced, with no glaring weak spots in the starting lineups. I think that Amherst has by a significant margin the best starting lineup of the four teams, but also the thinnest bench. If Amherst starters can play close to 40 minutes each, as they typically do in big games when not in foul trouble, it will spell trouble for whomever plays them. IWU is clearly the deepest of the four teams, but I don't think the Titans have the same sort of individual star power as the other three, and in particular, as Williams or Amherst -- Toomey is almost certainly the best player on the remaining four teams, and Mayer is almost certainly the second-best player. The Titans' second unit could be a really big asset if they can survive Friday, because they can rotate fresh guys in after the short turnaround.
I feel that on any given day, any of these four teams can beat any of the other four. Whitewater and Amherst have athleticism that will present problems for IWU and Williams, respectively, but Williams and IWU each have multiple guys who can light it up from three and when they get it going from deep, those offenses are very hard to contain, and both looked dominant this weekend.
For all the complaints about bracketing, seeding, who was in, and who was out, in the end, the four best teams are in Salem, and none can credibly claim a harder road to getting there than any of the others. I expect three hotly contested games between hungry, experienced, veteran-laden and enormously talented teams. One of the strongest overall and most balanced Final Fours of recent years, in my opinion.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 15, 2014, 10:04:10 PMI think that Amherst has by a significant margin the best starting lineup of the four teams, but also the thinnest bench. If Amherst starters can play close to 40 minutes each, as they typically do in big games when not in foul trouble, it will spell trouble for whomever plays them.
"Media timeout" might be the two favorite words among Lord Jeffs fans next weekend.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 15, 2014, 02:26:51 AM
AMC did a horrific job of adjusting to the refs... who while calling the game maybe a bit tight... were consistent.
Dave, I agree with you. I would have liked to see a little more contact but the refs called it the same way the entire game. Albertus had to adjust and they didn't. I think the refs in the GNAC do allow them to play a little more physical, but I don't think it would be fair to say the maul guys. I watched the entire game, most of the calls were not aggressive, but were fouls. NCAA rules, you put two hands on a ball handler, it's a foul. You impede the progress of a player driving toward the hoop with your hip, it's a foul. And if you make contact with any person jumping toward the basket with your body (regardless if you hit the ball clean), it's a foul.
The coaching staff may have been upset and players arguing. I'll chalk that to a little sour grapes. I think Williams outplayed Albertus. They outcoached Albertus. That is why they won big.
The trash talking, the guys yelling at each other, the coaching staff yelling is unfortunate. And should be cleaned up. But let's face it.... College Basketball coaches are the biggest babies in collegeiate athletics. :o
Point had three bad tourney games. Yes. But they did blow out Whitewater in the WIAC title game, so it's not like they were playing bad going into the NCAAs.
I haven't compared participants to final pre-tourney polls, but this is looking (on paper) like the best FF since 2006. Usually there is at least one 'weakest link'; that year the four games (there was still a consolation game then) were ALL decided by 4 or fewer points (and the 4-point margin was IWU over Amherst in the consolation game, so never more than 3 points in the games they still play).
IWU would still like a game against Wittenberg for 2nd; better yet a re-match with VaWes for first in 2006! ;)
There are no Cinderellas in this FF, and a solid case could be made for any of the teams taking home the hardware. (Perhaps the weakest case would be for Williams, who has already lost three times to Amherst (whom they play in the semi), but Williams has been on fire in the tourney.)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2014, 12:53:49 AM
I haven't compared participants to final pre-tourney polls, but this is looking (on paper) like the best FF since 2006. Usually there is at least one 'weakest link'; that year the four games (there was still a consolation game then) were ALL decided by 4 or fewer points (and the 4-point margin was IWU over Amherst in the consolation game, so never more than 3 points in the games they still play).
IWU would still like a game against Wittenberg for 2nd; better yet a re-match with VaWes for first in 2006! ;)
There are no Cinderellas in this FF, and a solid case could be made for any of the teams taking home the hardware. (Perhaps the weakest case would be for Williams, who has already lost three times to Amherst (whom they play in the semi), but Williams has been on fire in the tourney.)
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Whitewater's bench consists of basically Cody Odegaard. He has played 22, 30, 24 and 16 minutes. The next guy, Steve Egan, has played 18, 10, 8 and 9 minutes. I think Egan is out there just to make sure there are 5 guys on the floor. He's 4-9 from the field in 4 tourney games.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2014, 12:53:49 AM
I haven't compared participants to final pre-tourney polls, but this is looking (on paper) like the best FF since 2006. Usually there is at least one 'weakest link'; that year the four games (there was still a consolation game then) were ALL decided by 4 or fewer points (and the 4-point margin was IWU over Amherst in the consolation game, so never more than 3 points in the games they still play).
IWU would still like a game against Wittenberg for 2nd; better yet a re-match with VaWes for first in 2006! ;)
There are no Cinderellas in this FF, and a solid case could be made for any of the teams taking home the hardware. (Perhaps the weakest case would be for Williams, who has already lost three times to Amherst (whom they play in the semi), but Williams has been on fire in the tourney.)
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
I nominate TGHIJGSTO to be inscribed on The BeltTM. Sort of like the Latin phrases they put on seals and crests.
Tonight on Hoopsville we will recap the sectional weekend of basketball action and start previewing the championship weekend in Salem, Vir. and Stevens Point, Wis. Here are the guests you will hear from tonight:
- Williams head coach Mike Maker and senior center Mike Mayer
- Illinois Wesleyan head coach Ron Rose
- UW-Whitewater siblings Alex and Mary Merg
- Tufts senior forward Liz Moynihan
Pat Coleman will also join us to talk about what he saw this weekend and the tournament so far and we will announce the All-Region teams!
Show starts at 7 PM ET and will run until about 9:00 tonight.
You can tune in here: www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2013-14/mar16 (http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2013-14/jan12)
Don't forget you can ask us or our guests questions via social media:
- Twitter (@d3hoopsville (http://www.twitter.com/d3hoopsville) and #Hoopsville)
- Facebook (www.facebook.com/Hoopsville (http://www.facebook.com/Hoopsville))
- Email (hoopsville@d3hoops.com)
Thanks and enjoy the show!
I posted this on the NESCAC board, but thought I'd share here as well:
The parallels between Friday and the last Salem meeting for Amherst and Williams, exactly one decade ago, are positively eerie. Consider:
-- In 2004, Williams was defending its national championship, as Amherst is this go-around.
-- Williams had recently earned a second-straight NESCAC championship with a victory over Amherst in the title game. Once again, the reverse holds true this year.
-- Williams was led by an all-American senior point guard who had a ton of hype prior to enrolling, and won NESCAC ROY prior to setting loads of school records during his career. Again, ditto.
-- Amherst had reached the Elite 8 the prior year, just like Williams did last year.
-- A WIAC team was in the other half of the Final Four bracket.
Kinda weird. I just hope that this time, the underdog prevails!
Quote from: nescac1 on March 16, 2014, 06:22:48 PM
I posted this on the NESCAC board, but thought I'd share here as well:
The parallels between Friday and the last Salem meeting for Amherst and Williams, exactly one decade ago, are positively eerie. Consider:
-- In 2004, Williams was defending its national championship, as Amherst is this go-around.
-- Williams had recently earned a second-straight NESCAC championship with a victory over Amherst in the title game. Once again, the reverse holds true this year.
-- Williams was led by an all-American senior point guard who had a ton of hype prior to enrolling, and won NESCAC ROY prior to setting loads of school records during his career. Again, ditto.
-- Amherst had reached the Elite 8 the prior year, just like Williams did last year.
-- A WIAC team was in the other half of the Final Four bracket.
Kinda weird. I just hope that this time, the underdog prevails!
And once again, the WIAC team will take home the Bronze and Walnut!!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
Your response was worth the post. LOL ;D I know you like the term "preseason" too. ??? >:( ;)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
Your response was worth the post. LOL ;D I know you like the term "preseason" too. ??? >:( ;)
Hey, it IS really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season. I mean, how many games do you have to win in order to even get the fourth meeting? :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2014, 09:57:47 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
Your response was worth the post. LOL ;D I know you like the term "preseason" too. ??? >:( ;)
Hey, it IS really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season. I mean, how many games do you have to win in order to even get the fourth meeting? :)
My first thought was what is the record between Hope and Calvin in the 4th game of the season.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2014, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2014, 09:57:47 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
Your response was worth the post. LOL ;D I know you like the term "preseason" too. ??? >:( ;)
Hey, it IS really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season. I mean, how many games do you have to win in order to even get the fourth meeting? :)
My first thought was what is the record between Hope and Calvin in the 4th game of the season.
My first thought was whether or not two teams have ever played FIVE games in one season? (Plausible scenario: a pre-conference tourney somewhere, two conference games, conference tourney, national tourney.)
Hope and Calvin played 5 times in 2007
2007 Hope 76, Calvin 54--GR Hall of Fame Tournament
2007 Hope 65, Calvin 62--MIAA
2007 Calvin 77, Hope 71--MIAA
2007 Calvin 78, Hope 76--MIAA Tournament
2007 Hope 80, Calvin 64--NCAA 2nd round
The home team didn't win any of these games, last game at Aurora.
4 times in 1981, 2006, 2010
1981 Calvin 85, Hope 66 --tournament in Iowa I think
1981 Hope 70, Calvin68-ot --MIAA
1981 Calvin 67, Hope 57 --MIAA
1981 Calvin 69, Hope 67 --play-off for NCAA bid, played in Middleville, Mich.
2006 Hope 73, Calvin 55 --MIAA
2006 Calvin 59, Hope 58 --MIAA
2006 Hope 68, Calvin 55 --MIAA Tournament
2006 Hope 70, Calvin 67 --NCAA 2nd Round
2010 Hope 79, Calvin 76 --GR Hall of Fame
2010 Calvin 85, Hope 74 --MIAA
2010 Hope 67, Calvin 64 --MIAA
2010 Hope 87, Calvin 74 --MIAA Tournament
Not that anyone asked but I think it diminishes the rivalry. If that's really even possible. :-\
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 07:33:47 AM
Whitewater's bench consists of basically Cody Odegaard. He has played 22, 30, 24 and 16 minutes. The next guy, Steve Egan, has played 18, 10, 8 and 9 minutes. I think Egan is out there just to make sure there are 5 guys on the floor. He's 4-9 from the field in 4 tourney games.
I think that Egan may be WW's secret weapon... he scored 8 straight points off the bench in the UWSP/UWW game at Whitewater to help WW get to their halftime lead (that SP proceeded to eliminate in the first two minutes of the second half, thanks in part to a technical foul on UWW).
He's nowhere as physical as Whitewater's front line guys... but he's crafty around the basket and could provide a spark.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2014, 10:20:12 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2014, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2014, 09:57:47 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2014, 03:06:55 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
Well, you know what Gregory Sager likes to say, "It's really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season...." or something like that, right? TGHIJGSTO!!!
Are you seriopus?
Your response was worth the post. LOL ;D I know you like the term "preseason" too. ??? >:( ;)
Hey, it IS really hard to beat an opponent four times in one season. I mean, how many games do you have to win in order to even get the fourth meeting? :)
My first thought was what is the record between Hope and Calvin in the 4th game of the season.
My first thought was whether or not two teams have ever played FIVE games in one season? (Plausible scenario: a pre-conference tourney somewhere, two conference games, conference tourney, national tourney.)
Really short memory, Mr. Y!
Here is a look at the rotations for the Final Four teams...
http://www.iwuhoops.com/SalemRotations.html
Putting my Jayson Stark umm.. I meant Tim Kurkjian cap on....
On Friday Night, Williams made 46 free throws. On Saturday Night, Williams gave up 46 points. When is the last time (if ever) a team made as many free throws in one game of the NCAAs tournament as they gave up in another? Let alone do it in back to back nights.
I'm the only one who thinks Whitewater and Williams looked the best?
Or is it that they both had relatively weak competition (when compared to the other two)?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Whitewater and Williams looked the best?
Or is it that they both had relatively weak competition (when compared to the other two)?
Both Amherst and IWU ultimately dominated their competition (except for IWU in their opening game).
For the FF teams, 15 of 16 games by double digits. That's gotta be rare, if not unprecedented.
Not that rankings matter, but Whitewater is the top ranked team of the four, but some are probably considering Whitewater the 4th best team in the Final Four. Go Warhawks! (took my Pointer hat off and put on my WIAC hat)
If you base it on the Top 25 rankings, none of the four teams faced a particularly difficult path:
Whitewater: unranked, unranked, number 16, unranked (home, home, neutral, neutral)
IWU: unranked, number 5, number 24, unranked (all at home)
Amherst: bye, unranked, unranked, unranked (all at home)
Williams: unranked, unranked, 13, 17 (home, home, neutral, road)
Now, of course, rankings aren't the end-all and be-all. I'm guessing IWU fans would not say that St. Norbert, despite its higher ranking, was a significantly tougher opponent (if at all) than Calvin or Dickinson. Emory, Morrisville State and Mary Washington were on major rolls. And so on. But this is a year when a lot of highly-ranked teams in the Final Four's path fell by the wayside, and the Cinderellas just didn't have the horses and/or remaining energy to hang with the big boys in later rounds. So, the mismatches were not surprising, but do make it especially difficult to make judgments regarding relative level of performance heading into Salem. What is clear is that all four teams, even before the season, were universally seen as really talented, and all of them feature, in large part, the same key players they started the year with, who are generally tourney veterans and as healthy as you could ask for at this time of year. Salem features four heavy-hitters from power conferences, all of whom have already played numerous tough rivalry games this year and are loaded with elite upperclassmen, which should make for more entertaining and highly competitive basketball than we saw in the Elite 8 round, to put it mildly.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 17, 2014, 11:42:14 PM
Not that rankings matter, but Whitewater is the top ranked team of the four, but some are probably considering Whitewater the 4th best team in the Final Four. Go Warhawks! (took my Pointer hat off and put on my WIAC hat)
For what it's worth, both D3hoops.com and Massey have UW-Whitewater as the favorite to win the national championship...
D3hoops.com Top 25 - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2013-14/week13#3 UW-Whitewater
#6 Illinois Wesleyan
#7 Amherst
#9 Williams
Massey - http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2014&sub=11620#2 UW-Whitewater
#3 Illinois Wesleyan
#5 Amherst
#7 Williams
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 17, 2014, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Whitewater and Williams looked the best?
Or is it that they both had relatively weak competition (when compared to the other two)?
Both Amherst and IWU ultimately dominated their competition (except for IWU in their opening game).
For the FF teams, 15 of 16 games by double digits. That's gotta be rare, if not unprecedented.
C'mom Ypsi, give that one team some credit!!! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Titan Q on March 18, 2014, 08:28:30 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 17, 2014, 11:42:14 PM
Not that rankings matter, but Whitewater is the top ranked team of the four, but some are probably considering Whitewater the 4th best team in the Final Four. Go Warhawks! (took my Pointer hat off and put on my WIAC hat)
For what it's worth, both D3hoops.com and Massey have UW-Whitewater as the favorite to win the national championship...
D3hoops.com Top 25 - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2013-14/week13
#3 UW-Whitewater
#6 Illinois Wesleyan
#7 Amherst
#9 Williams
Massey - http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2014&sub=11620
#2 UW-Whitewater
#3 Illinois Wesleyan
#5 Amherst
#7 Williams
Those numbers are all so close that "the favorite" seems like an unfair title. Is there really an "underdog" in a #2/2 v. #6/3 matchup? How about in a #7/5 v #9/7?
Amherst only played 3 games, so its 14/15, right? I get your point though!
I know in the Pool C board there was a lot of discussion on the NESCAC schools and how good they really are. Tough conference but they don't play everyone twice? Weak out of conference schedule? Well, they consistently do well in the NCAAs. Are we going to start complaing about their side of their bracket always being weak now?
Greek Tragedy, let's PLEASE not go there. We've long ago exhausted every argument that can be made pro and con-NESCAC. There's no need to revisit -- NESCAC folks will never convince some posters that NESCAC teams get a fair shake, and, trust me, those same posters will never convince NESCAC folks that they have gamed the system. Let's just enjoy the games between four really good teams this weekend!
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2014, 11:18:45 PM
Hope and Calvin played 5 times in 2007
2007 Hope 76, Calvin 54--GR Hall of Fame Tournament
2007 Hope 65, Calvin 62--MIAA
2007 Calvin 77, Hope 71--MIAA
2007 Calvin 78, Hope 76--MIAA Tournament
2007 Hope 80, Calvin 64--NCAA 2nd round
The home team didn't win any of these games, last game at Aurora.
That 2007 D3 tourney game at Aurora's Thornton Gym is still the only Calvin vs. Hope contest I've ever seen in person. A bunch of us CCIW types (including fellow d3boards.com posters petemcb and Titan Q) sat between the fan sections of the MIAA archrivals and dubbed ourselves "Switzerland".
I was a bit disappointed that the game turned out to be a relative yawner. I suppose that years of reading so many MIAA-room posts about the epic nailbiters played between the two teams led me to expect that every game played between Calvin and Hope was predestined to end either in a buzzer-beater or an overtime, if not both. ;)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 18, 2014, 04:28:52 PM
I know in the Pool C board there was a lot of discussion on the NESCAC schools and how good they really are. Tough conference but they don't play everyone twice? Weak out of conference schedule? Well, they consistently do well in the NCAAs. Are we going to start complaing about their side of their bracket always being weak now?
I didn't follow that Pool C board conversation very closely, but I think it was more "Is the NESCAC's path to Salem easier?", as opposed to "how good they really are." Based on national tournament results of the last decade, I don't think anyone questions how good the top of the NESCAC is year in and year out.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 18, 2014, 04:52:35 PM
Greek Tragedy, let's PLEASE not go there. We've long ago exhausted every argument that can be made pro and con-NESCAC. There's no need to revisit -- NESCAC folks will never convince some posters that NESCAC teams get a fair shake, and, trust me, those same posters will never convince NESCAC folks that they have gamed the system. Let's just enjoy the games between four really good teams this weekend!
I wasn't going there, nescac1. As Titan Q pointed out, it may have been the path through the NCAAs. It was more of a rhetorical question. The success of the teams from the NESCAC in the tourney proves they are as good as advertised. When they get teams consistently in the Final Four, sooner or later "they" will realize the quality of those teams. If it only happened every so often, then some may be able to point at their path to the Final Four. I wasn't saying I questioned their quality.
Quote from: hopefan on March 18, 2014, 02:53:57 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 17, 2014, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Whitewater and Williams looked the best?
Or is it that they both had relatively weak competition (when compared to the other two)?
Both Amherst and IWU ultimately dominated their competition (except for IWU in their opening game).
For the FF teams, 15 of 16 games by double digits. That's gotta be rare, if not unprecedented.
C'mom Ypsi, give that one team some credit!!! ;D ;D ;D
Fair enough: the ONLY team to seriously challenge any of the FF teams was Webster, of the much-maligned SLIAC conference (and Webster was not even the regular season champion ;)). IWU won by one point on a foul call against Webster that some SLIAC partisans will go to their graves saying was a miscarriage of justice. I hadn't previously seen Webster, so can't say if they played great or IWU played crappy - probably some of each.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 17, 2014, 11:16:32 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2014, 11:08:34 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Whitewater and Williams looked the best?
Or is it that they both had relatively weak competition (when compared to the other two)?
Both Amherst and IWU ultimately dominated their competition (except for IWU in their opening game).
For the FF teams, 15 of 16 games by double digits. That's gotta be rare, if not unprecedented.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 18, 2014, 07:44:25 AM
If you base it on the Top 25 rankings, none of the four teams faced a particularly difficult path:
Whitewater: unranked, unranked, number 16, unranked (home, home, neutral, neutral)
IWU: unranked, number 5, number 24, unranked (all at home)
Amherst: bye, unranked, unranked, unranked (all at home)
Williams: unranked, unranked, 13, 17 (home, home, neutral, road)
Now, of course, rankings aren't the end-all and be-all. I'm guessing IWU fans would not say that St. Norbert, despite its higher ranking, was a significantly tougher opponent (if at all) than Calvin or Dickinson. Emory, Morrisville State and Mary Washington were on major rolls. And so on. But this is a year when a lot of highly-ranked teams in the Final Four's path fell by the wayside, and the Cinderellas just didn't have the horses and/or remaining energy to hang with the big boys in later rounds. So, the mismatches were not surprising, but do make it especially difficult to make judgments regarding relative level of performance heading into Salem. What is clear is that all four teams, even before the season, were universally seen as really talented, and all of them feature, in large part, the same key players they started the year with, who are generally tourney veterans and as healthy as you could ask for at this time of year. Salem features four heavy-hitters from power conferences, all of whom have already played numerous tough rivalry games this year and are loaded with elite upperclassmen, which should make for more entertaining and highly competitive basketball than we saw in the Elite 8 round, to put it mildly.
Actually, with the huge advantage of having all of their tournament games to this point at home, it should be no surprise to anyone that both IWU and Amherst are in Salem. In fact, both should have been embarrassed not to have made the Final Four. Particularly Amherst who enjoyed a bye and then 3 unranked opponents. At least IWU faced 2 top 25 (5 & 24) teams, although it was obvious that St. Norbert was really nowhere near a true #5 team.
Its too bad the NCAA can't channel some of the millions and millions ($71 million profit for the 2012 fiscal year increasing year-end assets to more than $566 million according to the NCAA financial statement) in its coffers to put on a true D3 national championship rather than what amounts to just a continuation of the regular season, but with the visiting teams coming from even further away with less fan support than they do during the regular season, especially the conference portion. I guess thats why I liked last year's format that saw not just the final four, but the final 8 teams play in Salem. I realize its an unrealistic dream to run the D3 tournament like the D1 tourney. However, once the D3 version gets down to a final 16, I'd love to see the remaining teams play at neutral sites. I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the
field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4
home games in a supposed
national tournament championship. The NCAA can't deny money is there in the vault, and they're not going to go belly up by spending a little more on the D3 serfs. If not the final 16, at least for the final 8. Seemed to work pretty well last year. JMHO.
Quote from: AndOne on March 19, 2014, 12:59:04 AM
Actually, with the huge advantage of having all of their tournament games to this point at home, it should be no surprise to anyone that both IWU and Amherst are in Salem. In fact, both should have been embarrassed not to have made the Final Four. Particularly Amherst who enjoyed a bye and then 3 unranked opponents. At least IWU faced 2 top 25 (5 & 24) teams, although it was obvious that St. Norbert was really nowhere near a true #5 team.
Its too bad the NCAA can't channel some of the millions and millions ($71 million profit for the 2012 fiscal year increasing year-end assets to more than $566 million according to the NCAA financial statement) in its coffers to put on a true D3 national championship rather than what amounts to just a continuation of the regular season, but with the visiting teams coming from even further away with less fan support than they do during the regular season, especially the conference portion. I guess thats why I liked last year's format that saw not just the final four, but the final 8 teams play in Salem. I realize its an unrealistic dream to run the D3 tournament like the D1 tourney. However, once the D3 version gets down to a final 16, I'd love to see the remaining teams play at neutral sites. I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4 home games in a supposed national tournament championship. The NCAA can't deny money is there in the vault, and they're not going to go belly up by spending a little more on the D3 serfs. If not the final 16, at least for the final 8. Seemed to work pretty well last year. JMHO.
54% of all sectional hosts in this tournament framework have been embarrassed, then. You may not have read this if you have no reason to follow the tourney, but here are the all-time sectional hosts in this tournament structure and a list of who has advanced.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
As for your indignant assertions about the NCAA, as I have said multiple times on this board, the Division III budget is 3.18% of the entire NCAA budget. If you think you can get the NCAA constitution changed, I beg you to go do it. See if enough D-I schools sign off on that division getting less money.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 19, 2014, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: AndOne on March 19, 2014, 12:59:04 AM
Actually, with the huge advantage of having all of their tournament games to this point at home, it should be no surprise to anyone that both IWU and Amherst are in Salem. In fact, both should have been embarrassed not to have made the Final Four. Particularly Amherst who enjoyed a bye and then 3 unranked opponents. At least IWU faced 2 top 25 (5 & 24) teams, although it was obvious that St. Norbert was really nowhere near a true #5 team.
Its too bad the NCAA can't channel some of the millions and millions ($71 million profit for the 2012 fiscal year increasing year-end assets to more than $566 million according to the NCAA financial statement) in its coffers to put on a true D3 national championship rather than what amounts to just a continuation of the regular season, but with the visiting teams coming from even further away with less fan support than they do during the regular season, especially the conference portion. I guess thats why I liked last year's format that saw not just the final four, but the final 8 teams play in Salem. I realize its an unrealistic dream to run the D3 tournament like the D1 tourney. However, once the D3 version gets down to a final 16, I'd love to see the remaining teams play at neutral sites. I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4 home games in a supposed national tournament championship. The NCAA can't deny money is there in the vault, and they're not going to go belly up by spending a little more on the D3 serfs. If not the final 16, at least for the final 8. Seemed to work pretty well last year. JMHO.
54% of all sectional hosts in this tournament framework have been embarrassed, then. You may not have read this if you have no reason to follow the tourney, but here are the all-time sectional hosts in this tournament structure and a list of who has advanced.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
As for your indignant assertions about the NCAA, as I have said multiple times on this board, the Division III budget is 3.18% of the entire NCAA budget. If you think you can get the NCAA constitution changed, I beg you to go do it. See if enough D-I schools sign off on that division getting less money.
Very interesting idea. I like the idea of neutral sites in theory, but I also love the idea of full gyms/arenas... What if neutral D3 arenas hosted the round of 16 and 8? What if instead of IWU hosting Calvin, Dickenson, and Wheaton, you play the games at Wooster, Wittenberg, or Hope? Or maybe a small D1 or D2 school like Butler, Dayton, Grand Valley, Western Michigan, or Valpo. If high school teams can find neutral sites to play games cost-effectively, D3 playoff games should be able to as well.
Two huge prohibiting factors. Time and people. Having the game as a home team insures people in the stadium. An empty neutral site is a sad thought. Also, the logistics of organizing 4 neutral site locations in only a couple days time seems like an unlikely endeavor. Without knowing who will be moving on until the weekend before, lining up potential sites any earlier would not allow for 500 mile rule considerations.
Quote from: sethteater on March 19, 2014, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 19, 2014, 01:29:24 AM
Quote from: AndOne on March 19, 2014, 12:59:04 AM
Actually, with the huge advantage of having all of their tournament games to this point at home, it should be no surprise to anyone that both IWU and Amherst are in Salem. In fact, both should have been embarrassed not to have made the Final Four. Particularly Amherst who enjoyed a bye and then 3 unranked opponents. At least IWU faced 2 top 25 (5 & 24) teams, although it was obvious that St. Norbert was really nowhere near a true #5 team.
Its too bad the NCAA can't channel some of the millions and millions ($71 million profit for the 2012 fiscal year increasing year-end assets to more than $566 million according to the NCAA financial statement) in its coffers to put on a true D3 national championship rather than what amounts to just a continuation of the regular season, but with the visiting teams coming from even further away with less fan support than they do during the regular season, especially the conference portion. I guess thats why I liked last year's format that saw not just the final four, but the final 8 teams play in Salem. I realize its an unrealistic dream to run the D3 tournament like the D1 tourney. However, once the D3 version gets down to a final 16, I'd love to see the remaining teams play at neutral sites. I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4 home games in a supposed national tournament championship. The NCAA can't deny money is there in the vault, and they're not going to go belly up by spending a little more on the D3 serfs. If not the final 16, at least for the final 8. Seemed to work pretty well last year. JMHO.
54% of all sectional hosts in this tournament framework have been embarrassed, then. You may not have read this if you have no reason to follow the tourney, but here are the all-time sectional hosts in this tournament structure and a list of who has advanced.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2014/sectional-hosts-announced
As for your indignant assertions about the NCAA, as I have said multiple times on this board, the Division III budget is 3.18% of the entire NCAA budget. If you think you can get the NCAA constitution changed, I beg you to go do it. See if enough D-I schools sign off on that division getting less money.
Very interesting idea. I like the idea of neutral sites in theory, but I also love the idea of full gyms/arenas... What if neutral D3 arenas hosted the round of 16 and 8? What if instead of IWU hosting Calvin, Dickenson, and Wheaton, you play the games at Wooster, Wittenberg, or Hope? Or maybe a small D1 or D2 school like Butler, Dayton, Grand Valley, Western Michigan, or Valpo. If high school teams can find neutral sites to play games cost-effectively, D3 playoff games should be able to as well.
Two huge prohibiting factors. Time and people. Having the game as a home team insures people in the stadium. An empty neutral site is a sad thought. Also, the logistics of organizing 4 neutral site locations in only a couple days time seems like an unlikely endeavor. Without knowing who will be moving on until the weekend before, lining up potential sites any earlier would not allow for 500 mile rule considerations.
The issue is money. It costs more to host neutral site games.
All-Star Rosters are out (ignore the incorrect date on the dateline):
http://www.nabc.org/events/2014_Reese-s_Div_III_MBB_ASG_Rosters_3-18-14.pdf
That should be a fun game.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 19, 2014, 08:47:48 AM
All-Star Rosters are out (ignore the incorrect date on the dateline):
http://www.nabc.org/events/2014_Reese-s_Div_III_MBB_ASG_Rosters_3-18-14.pdf
That should be a fun game.
Obviously East vs. West are not to be taken literally...
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 19, 2014, 08:47:48 AM
All-Star Rosters are out (ignore the incorrect date on the dateline):
http://www.nabc.org/events/2014_Reese-s_Div_III_MBB_ASG_Rosters_3-18-14.pdf
That should be a fun game.
Posted here yesterday with NCAA broadcast link.
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2014/03/nabc-names-2014-all-star-rosters
D2 holds it tournament with the first 3 rounds at the #1 seed in each reagion. Lots of neutral site games, almost all of them not involving the #1 seed poorly attended.
Neutral site games are not going to work in Division III... imagine trying to convince an entity that you want to host a set of games there, but you don't know if anyone local will be participating and you don't know the rest of the teams. These decisions have to be made sometimes more than a year in advance... very difficult sell. Then to compound the fact, you have to have a local school(s) or conference take part to do the work surrounding the game. Again, unless they have a real vested interest in doing all the work with no gauruntees their team or conference will be participating, they aren't going to bite. For example, Stevens Point will only host this year and had no interest in bidding for future final fours. The women have seen many schools not re-up on the process (i.e. Hope) because of what it takes. Salem is the extreme exception (and others like Appleton as well). The city is behind the effort along with the ODAC. They make it work because they have a vested interest in making it work. You simply are not going to get many others interested (look at the lack of people interested in hosting the final four in the first place).
As for the money, I know of schools who have declined to host a pod of games at another site just because their gym isn't big enough... and budget, along with manpower, is usually the first reason cited for declining the opportunity. Neutral site games mean spending the money to rent the facility, then spend the money to have that facilities staff on staff, the money needed to add more people to your own staff to help with what is now a bigger event, and other expenses. Sure, the NCAA tends to foot most of the bill, but part of the paperwork to host in the first place includes a budget for the weekend - the NCAA isn't going to go to a place if the budget is out of control... or they will only foot some of the bill putting the rest on the schools. That is a pretty hard pill to swallow sometimes making the idea of a neutral site weekend games in Division III pretty much a non-starter.
SAC---
Lets say your team makes the final 8. Would you rather they play in a half empty gym where 50% or so of those in attendance would at least be rooting for your team, or in one they might have to travel several hundred miles to and be faced with 90% of those in attendance rooting for the home (other) team? I'm just trying to even things out a bit. Unrealistic I realize, but can you deny you wouldn't mind the additional support?
DAVE---
Thanks for the detailed explanation. As I said in my post "I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4 home games in a supposed national tournament championship."
I'm sure you're correct when you say "you are not going to get many others interested." But wouldn't it be interesting to investigate the possibilities, and wouldn't it make things a little more equitable if it could somehow be made to work out?
PAT---
I understand that through your involvement and experience with the NCAA, you view this as remote of a possibility as your being able to jump over the moon. However, can you deny that you would absolutely love it if the NCAA would appropriate a little more than the 3.18%, which is no doubt burned into your mind, to fund D3 activities?
Additionally, as far as my "indignant assertions" about the NCAA, aren't you at least a bit indignant yourself over that meager 3.18% that said NCAA budgets for D3 that you love so dearly??
You're so fond of, and so used to, criticizing me that you don't see that in reality we're on the same page/team here. I'd like a little more spent on D3, especially in an instance when doing so would level the playing field. Sure, given the current state of affairs, its undoubtedly an unrealistic dream. But, with your love of D3, tell me you've never dreamed of the hallowed NCAA channeling a little more dinero the D3 way. :)
Quote from: AndOne on March 19, 2014, 03:09:05 PM
SAC---
Lets say your team makes the final 8. Would you rather they play in a half empty gym where 50% or so of those in attendance would at least be rooting for your team, or in one they might have to travel several hundred miles to and be faced with 90% of those in attendance rooting for the home (other) team? I'm just trying to even things out a bit. Unrealistic I realize, but can you deny you wouldn't mind the additional support?
DAVE---
Thanks for the detailed explanation. As I said in my post "I understand that this would present some logistical problems, and of course cost more money, but it would level the field court, and remove the tremendous advantage that is inherent in having a team play 4 home games in a supposed national tournament championship."
I'm sure you're correct when you say "you are not going to get many others interested." But wouldn't it be interesting to investigate the possibilities, and wouldn't it make things a little more equitable if it could somehow be made to work out?
PAT---
I understand that through your involvement and experience with the NCAA, you view this as remote of a possibility as your being able to jump over the moon. However, can you deny that you would absolutely love it if the NCAA would appropriate a little more than the 3.18%, which is no doubt burned into your mind, to fund D3 activities?
Additionally, as far as my "indignant assertions" about the NCAA, aren't you at least a bit indignant yourself over that meager 3.18% that said NCAA budgets for D3 that you love so dearly??
You're so fond of, and so used to, criticizing me that you don't see that in reality we're on the same page/team here. I'd like a little more spent on D3, especially in an instance when doing so would level the playing field. Sure, given the current state of affairs, its undoubtedly an unrealistic dream. But, with your love of D3, tell me you've never dreamed of the hallowed NCAA channeling a little more dinero the D3 way. :)
As a player and fan I'd much rather go to the gym full of opposing fans, rather than the half-empty gym. I'd rather lose in the first round at a gym with a big time atmosphere than advance to the sweet 16 by winning at a neutral gym with smaller less interested crowds. In my experience referees can be terrible at home, away or neutral venues. Home court advantage in many cases is justly earned and is meaningful and fun to overcome.
Accept the fact that D3 does not have a true national tournament. We don't have the traveling fanbases or television coverage to have a tournament similar to the D1 tournament. It is also a bit odd to be complaining about the 3% allocated to D3 when you consider D3 didn't earn much of that 3%. Teams don't move from NAIA to D3 because of the lack of money the NCAA gives to support the D3 tournaments. We can of course ask for more, but don't be surprised or insulted when the rest of the NCAA isn't feeling charitable.
Wow...everything old is new again in Posting Up this spring. First the NESCAC-has-an-easy-path-to-Salem blast from the past, and now the let's-play-sectional-at-neutral-sites deja vu trip. I don't mean to belittle the discussion, I think it great to debate such things, I just wonder if maybe after what, 17 years?, we've finally talked about everything and have been forced to start recycling.
Just to give some perspective to some of the other old-timers, I'm pretty sure I remember discussing this with Barry Robinson, if that helps you carbon date this topic. :)
Quote from: David Collinge on March 19, 2014, 05:38:45 PM
Wow...everything old is new again in Posting Up this spring. First the NESCAC-has-an-easy-path-to-Salem blast from the past, and now the let's-play-sectional-at-neutral-sites deja vu trip. I don't mean to belittle the discussion, I think it great to debate such things, I just wonder if maybe after what, 17 years?, we've finally talked about everything and have been forced to start recycling.
Just to give some perspective to some of the other old-timers, I'm pretty sure I remember discussing this with Barry Robinson, if that helps you carbon date this topic. :)
Just like Hollywood, baby! Can't think of new movie ideas, so we'll just have sequels and remakes!
Quote from: David Collinge on March 19, 2014, 05:38:45 PM
Wow...everything old is new again in Posting Up this spring. First the NESCAC-has-an-easy-path-to-Salem blast from the past, and now the let's-play-sectional-at-neutral-sites deja vu trip. I don't mean to belittle the discussion, I think it great to debate such things, I just wonder if maybe after what, 17 years?, we've finally talked about everything and have been forced to start recycling.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that we recycle just about every hot topic on d3boards.com on at least a semi-annual basis. In addition to the NESCAC-has-an-easy-path-to-Salem discussion and the let's-play-sectionals-at-neutral-sites discussion, there's:
* the let's-find-a-more-convenient-Final-Four-site-than-Salem discussion;
* the why-does-Pat-corrupt-the-Top-25-poll-by-starting-it-off-in-preseason discussion;
* the MIAA-schools-get-jobbed-by-their-peninsularity discussion;
* the why-can't-West-Coast-teams-host-a-sectional discussion;
* the high-academic-schools-have-a-recruiting-handicap discussion;
and, of course, everyone's favorite:
* the why-the-heck-doesn't-the-WIAC-move-to-D2-where-it-belongs discussion.
I'm as tired as you are of these topics. But I think that we have to keep in mind that we posters don't represent the entirety of the d3boards.com readership. If Pat's clicker numbers are to be believed, there's a great deal of lurker readership on this site. Plus, there's always new posters who've never seen these debates in any of their previous iterations. In other words, what's an old topic for us isn't necessarily an old topic for much of the readership.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 19, 2014, 05:38:45 PMJust to give some perspective to some of the other old-timers, I'm pretty sure I remember discussing this with Barry Robinson, if that helps you carbon date this topic. :)
Thanks for the flashback, Memphis. ;)
Should we stop having political discussions because the topics remain the same?
Over time you might find more support for your ideas. The national committee and criteria have also changed, making arguments about the NESCAC unique. The benefit the NESCAC got under the QOWI is different than their OWP SOS advantage.
Long, long ago, when I was still active in the ODAC conversation, we recycled hot topics so reliably that we actually numbered the most common opening salvos and subsequent responses to make things more efficient. Thus, rather than "WIAC should be D2" and "they follow the same rules as everyone else," it would simply be "#6" and "#2." Saved everybody a lot of time.
Quote from: AO on March 19, 2014, 10:19:43 PM
Should we stop having political discussions because the topics remain the same?
Yes, but not for that reason. :)
Again,
Quote from: David Collinge on March 19, 2014, 05:38:45 PM
I don't mean to belittle the discussion, I think it great to debate such things,
I realize that the great preponderance of members are not as old as some of us and have not been through these discussions time and time again. I'm glad people care enough to raise these issues and work them through. I just wish they wouldn't do it ON MY LAWN!
shut her down!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2014, 08:46:18 PM
* the let's-find-a-more-convenient-Final-Four-site-than-Salem discussion;
I'd love to get into that one but I'm about ready to leave for the airport so I can arrive in Salem 12 hours from now. ;)
On behalf of Virginia residents, I think Salem works just fine! Besides, at least every other year it seems like there is a team from Virginia appearing in Salem, so it's convenient for at least one conference :).
Quote from: AndOne on March 19, 2014, 03:09:05 PM
I understand that through your involvement and experience with the NCAA, you view this as remote of a possibility as your being able to jump over the moon. However, can you deny that you would absolutely love it if the NCAA would appropriate a little more than the 3.18%, which is no doubt burned into your mind, to fund D3 activities?
I'd love lots of impossible things to happen, yes.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2014, 08:46:18 PM
* the why-does-Pat-corrupt-the-Top-25-poll-by-starting-it-off-in-preseason discussion;
Four words: One, two, three, thirteen. ;)
Just for fun, if the final four were to take place at the geographic center of the four schools involved, it would be held on a boat in Lake Erie, northeast of Cleveland.
If it were held at the geographic center of the eight schools in the "elite eight", it would have been held 15 miles east of Pittsburgh.
If it were held at the geographic center of the 16 schools in the "sweet sixteen", it would have been held in eastern Ohio, northwest of Steubenville.
Cleveland State's Wolstein Center for future Final Fours? Maybe Duquesne's AJ Palumbo Center?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2014, 08:46:18 PM
In addition to the NESCAC-has-an-easy-path-to-Salem discussion and the let's-play-sectionals-at-neutral-sites discussion, there's:
* the let's-find-a-more-convenient-Final-Four-site-than-Salem discussion;
* the why-does-Pat-corrupt-the-Top-25-poll-by-starting-it-off-in-preseason discussion;
* the MIAA-schools-get-jobbed-by-their-peninsularity discussion;
* the why-can't-West-Coast-teams-host-a-sectional discussion;
* the high-academic-schools-have-a-recruiting-handicap discussion;
* the why-the-heck-doesn't-the-WIAC-move-to-D2-where-it-belongs discussion.
NESCAC easy path: Well, there are a lot of conferences in New England that aren't particularly strong, so they might end up on an easier path for the first and second rounds. I'm glad that the committee seperated Williams and Amherst and I think all the teams had an easier than normal path just because of the sheer number of upsets. I wasn't sure about Williams but they played fine basketball at Mary Washington and deserved the recognition that the poll gave them.
Final Four Somewhere Else: I do think it should rotate. They are fine D3 facilities that could host, so I'd be happy to see it move around a little.
Pre-Season Poll: I'm cool with it, but I think they shouldn't do another poll until the clubs are 10 games or so in the season to force the pollsters to reaccess their picks with a lot more data instead of the week to week response to the occasional upset.
MIAA getting jobbed: You know, the Great Lakes are really like big seas. Michigan should have been more careful during the last Ice Age.
West Coast hosting: Well, Whitman got to host in the women's 2nd weekend, so I wonder how much that is considered. There just aren't that many great teams in the west at the moment.
High Academic Schools have recruiting disadvantage: Eh, I don't think so as much.
WIAC: In my opinion, this is a very smart move. Too many state universities try to compete at too high of a level and they suck too many resources out of the university to compete at D1, but at a low level. Wisconsin has a very good system for public higher education and probably should be emulated in more states.
OK, thanks. All those topics are now officially retired. :)
Quote from: David Collinge on March 20, 2014, 05:54:30 PM
OK, thanks. All those topics are now officially retired. :)
When is the ceremony to raise their numbers into the d3 rafters?
Quote from: David Collinge on March 20, 2014, 05:54:30 PM
OK, thanks. All those topics are now officially retired. :)
Hey, you're welcome. I'm heading over to the Conspiracies forum to answer some of their common themes (spoiler alert: Oswald acted alone and the Loch Ness monster is really just a big log).
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 20, 2014, 11:33:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2014, 08:46:18 PM
* the why-does-Pat-corrupt-the-Top-25-poll-by-starting-it-off-in-preseason discussion;
Four words: One, two, three, thirteen. ;)
One, two, three, WIAC. :)
For all the fuss we made about not switching the brackets so Williams and Amherst could meet in the final, I'm actually glad it worked out the way it did. Whitewater-IWU and Williams-Amherst are both intriguing, exciting games tonight. I'm much more excited about these than I would be if IWU and Williams were switched. We're going to get two great games tonight and one more tomorrow.
I'm happy.
I will disagree with that. If I were a NESCAC fan, I would want a chance to play a fellow NESCAC team in the Final. I also like the opportunity of East v West semi-finals.
http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2014-03-18/national-association-basketball-coaches-announces-diii-all
So the NVAA release says two student-athletes from each of the eight regions. There are three from the West Region: Tillema from Point, Cross from Platteville and Kornbaum from Augsburg. Was Kornbaum one of the ones voted in? I cant remember.
Is there a livestats link to any of the games? I just see video links on the schedule page.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 21, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2014-03-18/national-association-basketball-coaches-announces-diii-all
So the NVAA release says two student-athletes from each of the eight regions. There are three from the West Region: Tillema from Point, Cross from Platteville and Kornbaum from Augsburg. Was Kornbaum one of the ones voted in? I cant remember.
Is there a livestats link to any of the games? I just see video links on the schedule page.
Dan Kornbaum from Augsburg was one of the players that got voted in. The other player voted in was St. Norbert guard Brandon Gries.
Regarding your other question...if you go to the D3hoops team pages of any of the Final Four teams you will find a live stats link.
To save you the trouble here's a link for the live stats for the IWU-Whitewater game;
http://www.ncaa.com/game/basketball-men/d3/2014/03/21/ill-wesleyan-wis-whitewater
And here's a link to the live stats for the Williams-Amherst game:
http://www.ncaa.com/game/basketball-men/d3/2014/03/21/williams-amherst
I'll do the leg work for you. I realize you're probably all tuckered out from practicing with your posters' team of Gleich , Nonemacher and Koehler.
Thanks for the help. I was at work and it's a little harder to do things on my phone. And yeah, I'm a little tired from practice. ::) ;)
http://www.ncaa.com/game/basketball-men/d3/2014/03/21/ill-wesleyan-wis-whitewater/boxscore
Whitewater wins 71-63
Let me be the first to say... Holy Cow!
So now, all of a sudden, five other people join me in choosing Whitewater and Williams. Hmmmm. Convenient.
Toomey is playing this game like his dog died this morning.
Whitewater vs Williams
battle of D3 power conference runner-ups.
Quote from: sac on March 21, 2014, 09:55:14 PM
Let me be the first to say... Holy Cow!
Are you implying that was a total shock to you? I think IWU may have been the favorite, despite what Massey and the polls say, but I don't think it's huge upset.
I think Williams destroying Amherst was a shocker.
Think about it for a minute.....
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alumniconnections.com%2Folc%2Fpub%2FWLC%2Ffilemanager%2FAlumni%2520Relations%2FEvents%2520Blueprints%2Ffull_1314320727purple_cow.jpg&hash=091900013523aa16a88570b5a7b25850c33d897c)
Quote from: David Collinge on March 21, 2014, 10:34:53 PM
Think about it for a minute.....
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alumniconnections.com%2Folc%2Fpub%2FWLC%2Ffilemanager%2FAlumni%2520Relations%2FEvents%2520Blueprints%2Ffull_1314320727purple_cow.jpg&hash=091900013523aa16a88570b5a7b25850c33d897c)
I look forward to the day I can make that smart remark and it refers to Wooster.
Live stats not working on NCAA page. At least for me.
Absolutely great final game UWW up 1, 47 second left.... Williams ball...
Williams turnover, foul UWW, UWW miss FT.... Williams ball, timeout, 18.7 sec
Tip in off miss Williams, UWW all the way back to hole for layup and FT... UWW up 2 with 0.9 secs
UWW national champs!!!!! Just a super final.....
Sounds like a great game. Would've been nice to see it.
You'll be very hard pressed to find a better, more competitive game played this weekend. Great effort by both teams.
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
You'll be very hard pressed to find a better, more competitive game played this weekend. Great effort by both teams.
I was typing the same thought on the NESCAC page at about the same time as you were posting this one.
Wow.... Quardell Young's gotta be the quickest guy in the country. He did the identical thing against Stevens Point to force OT (he managed to actually miss the FT after being fouled against Point... that could have won them the game).
I had a feeling that this team could do special things... if they could get past Point. Emory helped with that though...
Quote from: David Collinge on March 21, 2014, 10:34:53 PM
Think about it for a minute.....
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alumniconnections.com%2Folc%2Fpub%2FWLC%2Ffilemanager%2FAlumni%2520Relations%2FEvents%2520Blueprints%2Ffull_1314320727purple_cow.jpg&hash=091900013523aa16a88570b5a7b25850c33d897c)
I guess the motto of the Williams Amherst game is that you always want to win the last game that you play against a team each season.
So, 3 of the last 5 and 5 of the last 11 titles in men's basketball for the WIAC.
I heard the other 440+ member institutions will be supplying the WIAC schools with athletic scholarship money so they can move to Division 2! >:(
TGHIJGSTOTM!!
Just curious who made the All Tourney team
Evans - MOP?
Bryson
Robinson
Mayer
??
Edit: Read in local paper that Evans did get MOP and Young also made the All-Tourney team.
Here's the last 20 seconds of the championship game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dS50fvCJs
What is not shown however is a really long 3 by WW a few moments earlier to take the lead, and a terrific steal by WW a few seconds earlier that set up ft's that might have given WW a 3point lead and forced Williams to shoot a 3 to tie, instead we ended up with this.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
Just curious who made the All Tourney team
Evans - MOP?
Bryson
Robinson
Mayer
??
Edit: Read in local paper that Evans did get MOP and Young also made the All-Tourney team.
TitanQ tweeted out this
Quardell Young, Eric Bryson, Duncan Robinson, Michael Mayer, KJ Evans (M.O.P.)
Quote from: John Gleich on March 22, 2014, 10:06:34 PM
Wow.... Quardell Young's gotta be the quickest guy in the country. He did the identical thing against Stevens Point to force OT (he managed to actually miss the FT after being fouled against Point... that could have won them the game).
I had a feeling that this team could do special things... if they could get past Point. Emory helped with that though...
Interestingly, only slower than Michael Mayer who went from tipping in the rebound for the lead to getting down court and nearly stopping Young at the basket - THAT I thought was the most impressive feat considering everything going on.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2014, 04:53:27 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on March 22, 2014, 10:06:34 PM
Wow.... Quardell Young's gotta be the quickest guy in the country. He did the identical thing against Stevens Point to force OT (he managed to actually miss the FT after being fouled against Point... that could have won them the game).
I had a feeling that this team could do special things... if they could get past Point. Emory helped with that though...
Interestingly, only slower than Michael Mayer who went from tipping in the rebound for the lead to getting down court and nearly stopping Young at the basket - THAT I thought was the most impressive feat considering everything going on.
Q was dribbling a basketball... and weaving through all FIVE Williams players, plus he slashed through from the wing while Mayer went from basket to basket (i.e. straight line). And Mayer only tied him... didn't beat him down the court. Headsy play and great effort by Mayer to protect the basket (instead of going to the ball like the other 4 Ephs) but he's not as quick as Young my a considerable amount!
I've got to admit, from my seat at Buffalo Wild Wings, I wasn't sure if they were counting the basket or if they had called an offensive foul based on the looks on the Warhawks players both on the floor and the bench. They seemed angry, like the call had gone against them, but they were just excited.
I've been trying to track down video from SP's championship in 03-04 but I can't seem to find anything on Youtube, just to compare.
John... considering I wouldn't say Mayer is step for step with Q normally... the fact he still got down the court and "beat him" (considering he was in front of Q when he arrived) makes the feat somewhat impressive... don't you think? Q was also about 30 feet up the court when he got the ball and wasn't on the baseline when he started like Mayer. I am not taking anything away from Q who made a heck of an effort... but I just think Mayer should get some credit for hustling back down the court to try and stop him.
If he truly beat him down the floor, he wouldn't have fouled him. :-\
Video evidence above has both players a the opposite FT line when Q Young gets the ball. Mayer does a great job hustling down the floor.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
John... considering I wouldn't say Mayer is step for step with Q normally... the fact he still got down the court and "beat him" (considering he was in front of Q when he arrived) makes the feat somewhat impressive... don't you think? Q was also about 30 feet up the court when he got the ball and wasn't on the baseline when he started like Mayer. I am not taking anything away from Q who made a heck of an effort... but I just think Mayer should get some credit for hustling back down the court to try and stop him.
It's absolutely preposterous to say that was "the most impressive feat" of that play. Mayer would get "credit" for hustling in an ordinary game situation, but it's obviously expected that he would hustle for the last play of the national championship. He wasn't able to stop the shot and he wasn't able to control his body well enough to avoid fouling. He was merely the final victim of the play, not the hero.
Quote from: AO on March 24, 2014, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
John... considering I wouldn't say Mayer is step for step with Q normally... the fact he still got down the court and "beat him" (considering he was in front of Q when he arrived) makes the feat somewhat impressive... don't you think? Q was also about 30 feet up the court when he got the ball and wasn't on the baseline when he started like Mayer. I am not taking anything away from Q who made a heck of an effort... but I just think Mayer should get some credit for hustling back down the court to try and stop him.
It's absolutely preposterous to say that was "the most impressive feat" of that play. Mayer would get "credit" for hustling in an ordinary game situation, but it's obviously expected that he would hustle for the last play of the national championship. He wasn't able to stop the shot and he wasn't able to control his body well enough to avoid fouling. He was merely the final victim of the play, not the hero.
Yes... I did say earlier "most impressive feat" and above I said "somewhat impressive", but let's consider something here... Mayer is 6-9 and not considered fast by anyone. I thought it was pretty impressive he got down court and he did get in front of Q because he got his entire body between Q and the basket before fouling him. You can watch the highlights here: http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2014-03-22/mbk-diii-championship-game-wisconsin-whitewater-williams (http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2014-03-22/mbk-diii-championship-game-wisconsin-whitewater-williams).
Again... I am taking nothing away from Q... I was just impressive on the play by Mayer as well who got what looked like the go-ahead tip-in and nearly followed it up by stopping Q. I think the play is what made the game so great... both teams never gave up from the opening tip to the end.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 03:45:07 PM
Quote from: AO on March 24, 2014, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
John... considering I wouldn't say Mayer is step for step with Q normally... the fact he still got down the court and "beat him" (considering he was in front of Q when he arrived) makes the feat somewhat impressive... don't you think? Q was also about 30 feet up the court when he got the ball and wasn't on the baseline when he started like Mayer. I am not taking anything away from Q who made a heck of an effort... but I just think Mayer should get some credit for hustling back down the court to try and stop him.
It's absolutely preposterous to say that was "the most impressive feat" of that play. Mayer would get "credit" for hustling in an ordinary game situation, but it's obviously expected that he would hustle for the last play of the national championship. He wasn't able to stop the shot and he wasn't able to control his body well enough to avoid fouling. He was merely the final victim of the play, not the hero.
Yes... I did say earlier "most impressive feat" and above I said "somewhat impressive", but let's consider something here... Mayer is 6-9 and not considered fast by anyone. I thought it was pretty impressive he got down court and he did get in front of Q because he got his entire body between Q and the basket before fouling him. You can watch the highlights here: http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2014-03-22/mbk-diii-championship-game-wisconsin-whitewater-williams (http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2014-03-22/mbk-diii-championship-game-wisconsin-whitewater-williams).
Again... I am taking nothing away from Q... I was just impressive on the play by Mayer as well who got what looked like the go-ahead tip-in and nearly followed it up by stopping Q. I think the play is what made the game so great... both teams never gave up from the opening tip to the end.
+K for downgrading from "most impressive" to "just/pretty impressive". I've seen enough players who don't bother to show full effort to be encouraged by Mayer's hustle, but it's still preposterous to be talking about anyone else on that play. He literally beat all 5 Ephs. They didn't have the lateral quickness or defensive strategy necessary to stop him.
Not sure they actually saw that play coming... that's a page out of UWW's former head coach and maybe even Phil Jackson/Michael Jordan!
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 03:45:07 PM
Again... I am taking nothing away from Q... I was just impressive on the play by Mayer as well who got what looked like the go-ahead tip-in and nearly followed it up by stopping Q. I think the play is what made the game so great... both teams never gave up from the opening tip to the end.
Technically, it was still the go-ahead tip-in, just not the winning one! ;D
Its gotta be better than Kalsow's winner. That was a set play. Young's was more "I got 4 seconds to get the ball down and the court and see what happens..."
Great work by the clock people, I think. Are they supposed to stop it after a made field goal? They started it up right when the ball was inbounded too. Wonder if the clock guy was inticipating a timeout.
The clock stops in the final minute when the ball comes out of the net; it restarts when touched inbounds; see the end on the UNC-Iowa St game.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Not sure they actually saw that play coming... that's a page out of UWW's former head coach and maybe even Phil Jackson/Michael Jordan!
It was a tremendous play... that was almost identical to how UWW beat UWSP. Going into halftime, after an Alex Richard layup with 6 seconds left cut UWW's lead to 10, Young took the ball the entire length of the court and scored to beat the buzzer.
Then, at the end of regulation, Point hit 1/2 FT's with :18 left and WW inbounded the ball to Young, who took the ball the length of the court and scored with the foul with :15. Nearly identical play to how the Williams game ended, except Young missed the FT this time when it would have given WW a 1 point lead. SP didn't get a good shot attempt at the buzzer and WW won in OT.
Whitewater did that to Point one other time... the last time (prior to this year) that WW beat SP was in 09-10, SP's last championship season. After a Point bucket put the Pointers up 1, Fletcher Dupree took the inbound play and pushed the ball and used a Dustin Mitchell rub-off screen to get to the basket. That wasn't at the buzzer either... but it put WW up 1. Point turned it over and Mitchell hit 2 FT's... and Matt Moses' 3 pt heave didn't fall. That season ended well though... ;D
The Kalsow play may have been a "set" play, but it happened in the course of action. They didn't call timeout after the Williams basket and I think had about 10 seconds to work with to get that shot off. Certainly "set" in the sense they had a chance to run their offense or at least a play, but not set in that it didn't come out of a timeout.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2014, 04:48:04 PM
The Kalsow play may have been a "set" play, but it happened in the course of action. They didn't call timeout after the Williams basket and I think had about 10 seconds to work with to get that shot off. Certainly "set" in the sense they had a chance to run their offense or at least a play, but not set in that it didn't come out of a timeout.
Sorry, I meant compare the bench celebrations... ;)
That play served us very well. Helped us beat Gustavus Adolphus and then again against Williams. Williams defended it the best... and Kalsow just hit a big shot.
Best centers of the last 20 years:
1. Ben Strong
2. Mike Mayer
3. Tyler Sanborn
4. ??
Have I omitted anyone obvious? Discuss.
(2,3 is very close, but if not for injury then a gradual comeback to full strength, Mayer would have been the likely national POY. By the end of the year, I think he was clearly the top player in the country.)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2014, 10:32:48 PM
Best centers of the last 20 years:
1. Ben Strong
2. Mike Mayer
3. Tyler Sanborn
4. ??
Have I omitted anyone obvious? Discuss.
Two very obvious omissions leap to mind: Derek Reich of Chicago and Jeff Gibbs of Otterbein.
(Gibbs, incidentally, is still playing pro ball at age 33 for Toyota Alvark of the National Basketball League of Japan. Just looked up his current stats tonight; he's averaging 17.2 ppg and 10.6 rpg.)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2014, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2014, 10:32:48 PM
Best centers of the last 20 years:
1. Ben Strong
2. Mike Mayer
3. Tyler Sanborn
4. ??
Have I omitted anyone obvious? Discuss.
Two very obvious omissions leap to mind: Derek Reich of Chicago and Jeff Gibbs of Otterbein.
(Gibbs, incidentally, is still playing pro ball at age 33 for Toyota Alvark of the National Basketball League of Japan. Just looked up his current stats tonight; he's averaging 17.2 ppg and 10.6 rpg.)
Somehow I thought Gibbs was farther back than that - he might crack the top three (maybe even #two); Reich I think would only make it to 5th. Gibbs was my blind period - post-graduation; not yet D3.hoops (for me).
Ain't nobody beating out Ben Strong for first - you have to go back to Harper or Sikma to find his superior. (I think it was Harper who was your center in the glory days - I can't find history beyond the last ten years on the NPU website.)
Troy Ruths of WashU has to be a part of that discussion in some way.
Quote from: sac on March 27, 2014, 11:45:43 PM
Troy Ruths of WashU has to be a part of that discussion in some way.
I thought of both Reich and Ruths, but don't think they crack the top three (now four, with Gibbs); very close, but not quite there.
Your historical amnesia regarding Reich (2000-03 was not that long ago) is remarkable, Chuck. I mean, c'mon -- he was the four-time MVP of one of the top leagues in D3. (One of these days the UAA braintrust will wise up and rename their MVP award the Derek Reich Trophy.) He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers). And when he was named to the d3hoops.com All-Decade first team, I recall nary a peep in protest from anyone about it.
Gibbs? All that guy did was put his team on his back and carried them to a national championship as a senior in 2002. (Don't know why you'd think he played more than 20 years ago; it's barely been a dozen years since he cut down the net in Salem.) He had 25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game that year. He scored over 1,900 points and pulled down nearly 1,500 rebounds in four seasons at Otterbein. And he shot nearly 64% from the field over the course of his career, which is an insane number even for a guy who spent all of his time around the basket. And he was named as the All-Decade team's second-team center. All in all, not bad for a center who probably doesn't stand any taller than 6'1 (depends upon whom you ask).
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2014, 11:28:38 PM
Ain't nobody beating out Ben Strong for first - you have to go back to Harper or Sikma to find his superior. (I think it was Harper who was your center in the glory days - I can't find history beyond the last ten years on the NPU website.)
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/greatest-dynasty-1978
Just updated to a current URL/pc.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2014, 01:03:21 AM
He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers).
One young Mr. Duncan Robinson might have a chance at that.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2014, 01:03:21 AM
Your historical amnesia regarding Reich (2000-03 was not that long ago) is remarkable, Chuck. I mean, c'mon -- he was the four-time MVP of one of the top leagues in D3. (One of these days the UAA braintrust will wise up and rename their MVP award the Derek Reich Trophy.) He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers). And when he was named to the d3hoops.com All-Decade first team, I recall nary a peep in protest from anyone about it.
Gibbs? All that guy did was put his team on his back and carried them to a national championship as a senior in 2002. (Don't know why you'd think he played more than 20 years ago; it's barely been a dozen years since he cut down the net in Salem.) He had 25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game that year. He scored over 1,900 points and pulled down nearly 1,500 rebounds in four seasons at Otterbein. And he shot nearly 64% from the field over the course of his career, which is an insane number even for a guy who spent all of his time around the basket. And he was named as the All-Decade team's second-team center. All in all, not bad for a center who probably doesn't stand any taller than 6'1 (depends upon whom you ask).
So how was he able to do that at only 6-1, from one who didn't see him play?
He was built like a tank
Some decent footage in this very dramatic montage of their 2002 run to Salem by a local tv station. Some good views of Gibbs around the 2 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIlWuNAcuo
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache1.asset-cache.net%2Fgc%2F84355262-jeff-gibbs-of-south-allstars-pictured-during-gettyimages.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26amp%3Bc%3DIWSAsset%26amp%3Bk%3D2%26amp%3Bd%3DGkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QdL1G%252B10b9Hjz%252BCmHYambaHdmTamj3HCxE9OrRNWcJsloTYOuNLSw9jGhRY08ZMv0A%253D%253D&hash=9142c5c2efdff87bf902f477b732b89cb3558236)
A more recent pick of him in the Japanese pro league I think.
Not only built like a tank, but athletic enough to dunk in traffic in addition to a good off-hand - thanks for the footage.
Incredible leaping ability plus really good at being in position to rebound.
Quote from: ronk on March 28, 2014, 01:24:44 PM
Not only built like a tank, but athletic enough to dunk in traffic in addition to a good off-hand - thanks for the footage.
"Athletic" is a good word to describe him. He was a first-team d3football.com All-American at tight end as a senior as well.
As a former D3 player I hadn't followed that much until the last 5 years or so. I had not heard of any of the centers listed as the tops in the last 20 years so I googled Ben Strong. Really amused by a poster "sdbrum" who went on and on in his 2008 posts on this board about how bad Joakim Noah was compared to Ben Strong after seeing both in action. Thought it was only a matter of time before Noah would be outta the L and Strong in. Trashed everything about Noah's game imaginable.
Wonder if Thibs realizes he should ask Gar about making this change on his current roster.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2014, 01:03:21 AM
Your historical amnesia regarding Reich (2000-03 was not that long ago) is remarkable, Chuck. I mean, c'mon -- he was the four-time MVP of one of the top leagues in D3. (One of these days the UAA braintrust will wise up and rename their MVP award the Derek Reich Trophy.) He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers). And when he was named to the d3hoops.com All-Decade first team, I recall nary a peep in protest from anyone about it.
Gibbs? All that guy did was put his team on his back and carried them to a national championship as a senior in 2002. (Don't know why you'd think he played more than 20 years ago; it's barely been a dozen years since he cut down the net in Salem.) He had 25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game that year. He scored over 1,900 points and pulled down nearly 1,500 rebounds in four seasons at Otterbein. And he shot nearly 64% from the field over the course of his career, which is an insane number even for a guy who spent all of his time around the basket. And he was named as the All-Decade team's second-team center. All in all, not bad for a center who probably doesn't stand any taller than 6'1 (depends upon whom you ask).
Re: Gibbs. I think the problem was that Ott has never even made the NCAA tourney since then (this year they hopefully bottomed out at 4-22) - it just
felt like ancient history.
Re: Reich. I confess I didn't realize just HOW good he was. I didn't start following anyone outside the CCIW until 8-10 years ago.
Strong and Gibbs were both beasts, based on the eye test it's hard to put Mayer over either of them. (Reich I know less about, I'm embarassed to say, considering that I overlapped with him during one year while a grad student at UChicago, but his credentials are certainly impressive).
But man, Mayer sure did post back-to-back impressive tournaments. His stat line over 10 games in those two tourneys: 21.3 ppg, 10.5 rpb, 3.3 apg, .8 spg, 2.2 bpg, 61 percent from the field. He was consistently excellent from game to game, and played his best, for the most part, against the toughest opponents. And what's doubly impressive is that he did that against a slew of REALLY good big guys -- three all-Americans in Kearney, Langon, and Hannon, plus several other top-notch defensive centers / shot-blockers in David George, Victor I-won't-even-try-to-spell-his-name, and Hans Miersma, who won something like three confernece players of the year and may have been the best o fthe bunch defensively. Williams hit very few teams without really good interior players over the past two tourneys (Mary Washington was probably the biggest exception, Mayer vs. that front line was a comical mismatch).
What's most impressive to me is how well-rounded his game is -- how many big guys can average 3.3 assists, can shoot it out to the three point line, and can bring the ball up the floor, while still being a very powerful low post presence? He is not the most dominant center D3 has seen in recent years, that has to be Gibbs and Strong, and as seniors, Sanborn and Whittington were both truly dominant as well. But he is definitely the most well-rounded, and the most offensively skilled. I at least have Mayer as the top Williams center ever, which is no small feat in itself given competition from Ben Coffin and Troy Whittington. No disrespect to some of the solid big guys Williams will have next year, but there is no one remotely like Mayer anywhere on the Ephs' future roster, alas ...
Quote from: nescac1 on March 28, 2014, 05:20:43 PM
Strong and Gibbs were both beasts, based on the eye test it's hard to put Mayer over either of them. (Reich I know less about, I'm embarassed to say, considering that I overlapped with him during one year while a grad student at UChicago, but his credentials are certainly impressive).
Don't feel bad, since that puts you in the same boat as at least 98% of the U of C student population during the Reich era.
I've never encountered a campus more indifferent to intercollegiate sports -- well, at least among the schools that actually
have intercollegiate sports -- than the University of Chicago. While watching Maroons games at the Ratner Center I've joked with other fans that somebody should conduct a study to see how many students walk in the front door of Regenstein Library for every student who walks into the Ratner gym to see a game. Five hundred? A thousand? Eight thousand?
Good call, Greg. I think 1000-1 is fair. I went to one UChicago vs. Wheaton game when I was in grad school. Both were fairly highly regarded teams at the time, I believe. The crowd was so depressing that I never went again. It was more fun to watch our program's flag football team, which featured a former NFL all-pro lineman and a former Big 12 QB. Needless to say, the rest of UChicago never stood a chance ...
Revised top post players of the last 20 years:
Career Value:
1. Derek Reich
2. Ben Strong
3. Jeff Gibbs
Peak Value:
1a. Ben Strong
1b. Jeff Gibbs
3. Derek Reich?
Tyler Sanborn, Mike Mayer, Troy Ruths, and Joel Kolmodin would follow, in no particular order. (If Kolmodin had been blessed with two knees that worked, he might well have cracked the top three.)
The 5-6 guys mentioned seem pretty locked in as the top centers of the last decade. I think a top 5 would be best for a decade. Reich and Gibbs were just before I started following D3 more nationally, but their stats and accolades speak for themselves. With Ben Strong, I never saw him in person, but the vast majority of D3 players aren't scoring 50-60 points in a game against an extremely athletic D2 school (Lincoln, PA) without supreme talent.
I think Troy Ruth's is being slightly undervalued. I saw him for two years at the Final Four and he was fantastic. His talent level was exceptional and he owned the 2008 title game vs. Amherst. Ruths and Gibbs are the only ones to win titles and to be MVP of the Final Four.
For the fifth spot, I have to put Mayer above Whittington. Mayer is one of the most technically sound big men I've ever seen in D3 and his value to his team cannot be overstated. Whittington possessed the most raw athletic ability of these guys. I've never seen a D3 player jump as high and as quickly as him. I'd make Whinnington the 6th man of this five.
I think Tyler Sanborn is clearly a level below these 6 guys. Sanborn was talented, but not at the level of Ruths, Mayer, Strong, Whittington.
Just my 2 cents
Considering I saw all of these guys play in person... here is my list:
1 - Ben Strong
2 - Jeff Gibbs
3 - Troy Ruths
4 - Michael Mayer
5 - Derek Reich
6 - Tyler Sanborn
7 - Troy Whittington
You could honestly go round and round on those guys expect in my opinion the top two guys. I almost would go 1, 2, 3a, 3b, 3c, 3d, 3e as they all have aspects of their game I love and think are better than the others.
Dave, no Joel Kolmodin? He was third team center on the all-decade team. (Or was he too injured in any games you saw him?)
Yeah... he was pretty banged up in games I saw him.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2014, 01:03:21 AM
Your historical amnesia regarding Reich (2000-03 was not that long ago) is remarkable, Chuck. I mean, c'mon -- he was the four-time MVP of one of the top leagues in D3. (One of these days the UAA braintrust will wise up and rename their MVP award the Derek Reich Trophy.) He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers). And when he was named to the d3hoops.com All-Decade first team, I recall nary a peep in protest from anyone about it.
Gibbs? All that guy did was put his team on his back and carried them to a national championship as a senior in 2002. (Don't know why you'd think he played more than 20 years ago; it's barely been a dozen years since he cut down the net in Salem.) He had 25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game that year. He scored over 1,900 points and pulled down nearly 1,500 rebounds in four seasons at Otterbein. And he shot nearly 64% from the field over the course of his career, which is an insane number even for a guy who spent all of his time around the basket. And he was named as the All-Decade team's second-team center. All in all, not bad for a center who probably doesn't stand any taller than 6'1 (depends upon whom you ask).
Oh, my! A rare chance to gloat over a factual error by Greg! Derek Reich was 'only' a two-time first-team AA (2001 and 2003 - in 2002 Jeff Gibbs knocked him to second team). And he was first team center only in 2001 - in 2003, Joel Kolmodin was so good that Reich somehow became a forward! ;)
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Nope - no others. Since until Carissa Verkaik there had never been a F or So on the first team, there couldn't have been a three time winner.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 09:01:59 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Nope - no others. Since until Carissa Verkaik there had never been a F or So on the first team, there couldn't have been a three time winner.
Ronda Jo Miller Gallaudet 1998-2000
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Do we think Sydney Moss is staying in D3?
Think she's going to go pro early? :)
She would have to sit out a year to take a scholarship.
I have heard plenty of rumors from schools that compete against her in the Great Lakes, but nothing from the actual school... so I think the rumors are based on wishful thinking or hoping she doesn't stay around. As Pat points out, she would have to sit a year and I am not sure she would want that considering that didn't seem like an option if she transferred within Division 1 (one year if she is released, two years if Florida hadn't released her - which they weren't going to do initially since it looked like Kentucky would probably try and grab her).
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 05:56:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2014, 01:03:21 AM
Your historical amnesia regarding Reich (2000-03 was not that long ago) is remarkable, Chuck. I mean, c'mon -- he was the four-time MVP of one of the top leagues in D3. (One of these days the UAA braintrust will wise up and rename their MVP award the Derek Reich Trophy.) He was a three-time d3hoops.com first-team All-American (Pat will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any other three-time first-teamers). And when he was named to the d3hoops.com All-Decade first team, I recall nary a peep in protest from anyone about it.
Gibbs? All that guy did was put his team on his back and carried them to a national championship as a senior in 2002. (Don't know why you'd think he played more than 20 years ago; it's barely been a dozen years since he cut down the net in Salem.) He had 25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game that year. He scored over 1,900 points and pulled down nearly 1,500 rebounds in four seasons at Otterbein. And he shot nearly 64% from the field over the course of his career, which is an insane number even for a guy who spent all of his time around the basket. And he was named as the All-Decade team's second-team center. All in all, not bad for a center who probably doesn't stand any taller than 6'1 (depends upon whom you ask).
Oh, my! A rare chance to gloat over a factual error by Greg! Derek Reich was 'only' a two-time first-team AA (2001 and 2003 - in 2002 Jeff Gibbs knocked him to second team). And he was first team center only in 2001 - in 2003, Joel Kolmodin was so good that Reich somehow became a forward! ;)
I took my Reich data straight from his All-Decade bio on d3hoops.com, Chuck. (http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-decade/men/firstTeam)
Huh -- so that page has been inaccurate for about six years and nobody has noticed, or at least said anything. How about that ...
Quote from: ronk on March 29, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 09:01:59 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Nope - no others. Since until Carissa Verkaik there had never been a F or So on the first team, there couldn't have been a three time winner.
Ronda Jo Miller Gallaudet 1998-2000
How did you get access to the 1997-98 AA team? It won't access from the front page.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 31, 2014, 01:02:04 AM
Quote from: ronk on March 29, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 09:01:59 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
I didn't study the lists carefully, but in a quick scan, I don't think there has ever been a three-time first-team AA among the men (though 8-10 two-timers, including CCIW luminaries Adam Dauksas, Kent Raymond, Steve Djurickovic, and Joel Kolmodin - apologies to anyone I missed). Carissa Verkaik (Calvin) did it for the women, and (IF she can stay healthy and stays in d3), Sydney Moss seems inevitable for the women. (Didn't go back far enough to see if there were others - since the women do not yet have the parity of the men, I suspect there were.)
Nope - no others. Since until Carissa Verkaik there had never been a F or So on the first team, there couldn't have been a three time winner.
Ronda Jo Miller Gallaudet 1998-2000
How did you get access to the 1997-98 AA team? It won't access from the front page.
You're right - no access there; I went instead to the All-decade team and it's in her bio; was looking to see if Scranton's Taryn Mellody was a 3-time 1st team All-American and caught Miller's bio at the same time.
Our 1997-98 All-American team:
First Team
Misty Hart, Guard, Christopher Newport
Suzy Venet, Guard, Mount Union
Katie Haley, Forward, Western Maryland
Alia Fischer, Center, Washington University
Ronda Jo Miller, Center, Gallaudet
Second Team
Jenn Denby, Guard, Rowan
Colleen McCrave, Guard, Bates
Suzette Henry, Forward, Hunter
Gretchen MacColl, Forward, Trinity (Conn.)
Laura Haynes, Center, Guilford
Third Team
Jayme Anderson, Guard, Beloit
DeAnn Edge, Guard/Forward, Anderson
Kristen Venne, Forward, Susquehanna
Jessica Ott, Forward, UW-Stevens Point
Jen Brown, Center, Southern Maine
Honorable Mention
Anna Celaya, Guard, Occidental
Jennifer Ewing, Guard, University of the Ozarks
Katie Montague, Forward, Wooster
Julie Anderson, Forward, Johns Hopkins
Stephanie Lodermeier, Forward, Augsburg
Laura Wendorff, Center, St. Benedict
We didn't capture years or hometowns on these folks so it doesn't fit our current All-American format. It's on the list to take care of this offseason -- some of the info was difficult to track down when I had to do the same for the 1998 men's team.
All of the 1998 All-American selections are reflected in our all-time list:
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/women/alltime