I'm guessing this has been discussed before, but after perusing Messiah's incoming recruiting class that at a minimum reads like the haul of a D1 mid-major I'm just wondering if Messiah has ever contemplated a move to D1. I don't know if they have other sports that are at a similar level to the soccer programs, but even if not, there is certainly precedence of Northeastern D3s having D1 hockey programs (Union, which just won the D1 hockey title, St Lawrence, etc).
Not allowed to split divisions anymore. Teams in lax and hockey that are doing it were grandfathered in. Messiah would have to move all sports and that doesn't even touch on the complete paradigm shift necessary in the athletic department. Scholarships and compliance are very expensive.
The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, and there are plenty of other D1s that don't have a lot of scholarship money to offer. Are you suggesting that Messiah doesn't have the resources to support D1 programming? Obviously Messiah in D3 competition has a huge advantage (dare I say unfair?) with a full roster of D1-level recruits.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 20, 2014, 11:42:41 AM
The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships, and there are plenty of other D1s that don't have a lot of scholarship money to offer. Are you suggesting that Messiah doesn't have the resources to support D1 programming? Obviously Messiah in D3 competition has a huge advantage (dare I say unfair?) with a full roster of D1-level recruits.
Messiah ain't no Ivy. It's not really a Patriot League school either. Messiah is a D3 type university that happens to be unbelievably good at soccer. This isn't European football leagues with promotion and demotion, this is pick a league and win it. D3 has tons of dynasty programs throughout the sports. Check out wrestling, swimming, football... they all have long-time dominant programs. These schools choose through their mission and values to be part of D3. Going to D1 is not just about finding better competition, it's a complete philosophy change. See McMurry's failed attempt to go D2 which lasted less than 18 months.
Messiah has a moderate endowment of 120 million or so. It's a lot of money, but it's not a very big endowment even for D3. Certainly it's respectable, but Washington and Lee is over 1.2 billion, Amherst, Emory, Grinnell, Swarthmore, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Washington University, Case Western, and Johns Hopkins are all over a billion and some much larger. That doesn't really have much to do with it either, as huge amounts of those funds are earmarked for academic scholarships, professor endowments, and building maintenance and the capital funds and the interest those funds generate are not available for something as plebeian as athletics.
Just because Messiah has the kids to play at a D1 level in one sport, which is likely, doesn't have anything to do with whether it makes sense to move up as a whole. The ramifications and expenses across the entire college of such a move are massive.
As for it being unfair, that's just... well any word I pick is likely to be offensive. History, coaching, recruiting and facilities are what breeds champions. Messiah has them because they have devoted the time, resources, and have had a little luck that some choices worked our extremely well. None of that is unfair. They are just better at soccer, and have the history to make the school attractive. It is up to the other D3 schools to make the same investments, have a little luck, and drag Messiah back to the pack. It's not up to Messiah to either leave because they are too good or to limit themselves to give others a chance. Not everyone deserves a trophy, contrary to how youth sports seems to be run these days.
Fair enough I suppose, although I don't buy the financial argument at least as far as you went (and you said the endowment really isn't that relevant), and I also wonder if the schools that have dynasty-type programs in other sports are filled with athletes who truly would be competitive at the D1 level in the way Messiah would be in soccer. I doubt the latter.
Your last sentence is something that gets bandied about a lot, and I'm not sure why. Athletics and academics (as in admissions) have never been more competitive so I don't know if the trophies for all bit is some kind of political slip. Taking you literally, why not open up the national championships to all divisions and run them like Indiana and Kentucky high school basketball used to do with one tournament for all schools regardless of size or division?
At any rate, we can quibble back and forth about what exact word to use. The situation with soccer at Messiah certainly is unique (and I understand the mission is unique along with the other Christian-centered D3s), but I thought to comment on it right after I saw the atypical (for D3) D1-style press release on the incoming recruiting class.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 20, 2014, 05:28:59 PM
Fair enough I suppose, although I don't buy the financial argument at least as far as you went (and you said the endowment really isn't that relevant), and I also wonder if the schools that have dynasty-type programs in other sports are filled with athletes who truly would be competitive at the D1 level in the way Messiah would be in soccer. I doubt the latter.
Your last sentence is something that gets bandied about a lot, and I'm not sure why. Athletics and academics (as in admissions) have never been more competitive so I don't know if the trophies for all bit is some kind of political slip. Taking you literally, why not open up the national championships to all divisions and run them like Indiana and Kentucky high school basketball used to do with one tournament for all schools regardless of size or division?
At any rate, we can quibble back and forth about what exact word to use. The situation with soccer at Messiah certainly is unique (and I understand the mission is unique along with the other Christian-centered D3s), but I thought to comment on it right after I saw the atypical (for D3) D1-style press release on the incoming recruiting class.
I happen to be online when you responded so I'll simply say that big-time press release attempts aren't all that unique to Messiah, though they seem to be less common in soccer than in football or basketball. On the football boards here you'll see people bandying about h.s. player credentials and what they mean for incoming freshman in a way that used to only be done in D1.
As for financials, you just can't ignore the costs of running a D1 program. Most schools have extra coaches, larger recruiting budgets, they are required to have more compliance staff, tutors, bigger travel budgets and facilities. All of these are ancillary to scholarships. You need the money to come from somewhere and, as I pointed out, Messiah's endowment isn't more than mediocre for a D3 school.
Finally moving up means Messiah loses a huge recruiting tool. In D3 they are a big fish in a small pond and can talk about competing for national championships every year. In D1 they won't make that pitch as it stands now. They MIGHT get the same athletes, or those athletes might like the idea of being big fish in small ponds rather than a small or medium fish in big ponds. Once you start losing, you lose that recruiting tool and that mystique. What they have now works on so many levels, earning the school recognition a lot of faceless D1 schools never get. How familiar are you with Monmouth University in Long Branch NJ? For a few years they were ranked in men's soccer, one of the greatest U.S. women's players of all time, Christie Rampone, is a soccer alumni, and yet the school is middling in D1 most of the time. Mid-major is a kind description for most sports, and it doesn't have a lot to set it apart other than the original Annie movie was filmed on campus a few decades ago. Why would Messiah give up its recognition and recruiting edges in D3 to become more like the hundreds of Monmouth Universities scattered across the D1 landscape?
Messiah isn't all that unique among D3 dynasties. Mount Union, Kenyon, Wartburg, UWW and others all dominate a sport. Kenyon in swimming is stupidly ahead of Messiah in the dominance game, so far they make Messiah look like a flash in the pan. There are others as well but that doesn't mean they should move up.
As for your reductio ad absurdum for combining all divisions it's as ludicrous as the latin implies. The divisions play by different rules. Only MLB attempts to have a championship among teams playing with different rules (designated hitter). Setting aside MLB's stupidity, D1 and D3 are different, so they have different championships. That has nothing to do with everyone getting a trophy and everything to do with playing the same game under the same rules. And Indiana no longer has an all size tournament. Even they put that idea to bed over 15 years ago.
To sum everything up, there isn't a single good argument for Messiah to change divisions other than your comment that they are too good and put out a D1 press release. Pretty weak in the face of the actual facts of collegiate sports.
I know that would be absurd. I was responding to your trophy comment which had no place in the discussion to begin with.
You did this clarify quite well why Messiah wouldn't want to change. It's working great for them, and it's working great for them in part because of the unique way they are situated in the collegiate athletic landscape.
The Kenyon argument doesn't work. Few if any of their swimmers would be seriously competitive at the D1 level.
You were pretty reductive in your closing. It's not just that they are "too good" and have a D1-style press release. This isn't a case of a team having 2-4 kids who could have played D1 or having a couple of D1 transfers. They have a full roster of D1 level players. They are a D1 team playing D3 soccer. Again, very different than Kenyon swimming and I'm guessing your other examples in other sports as well.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 20, 2014, 06:05:27 PM
I know that would be absurd. I was responding to your trophy comment which had no place in the discussion to begin with.
You did this clarify quite well why Messiah wouldn't want to change. It's working great for them, and it's working great for them in part because of the unique way they are situated in the collegiate athletic landscape.
The Kenyon argument doesn't work. Few if any of their swimmers would be seriously competitive at the D1 level.
You were pretty reductive in your closing. It's not just that they are "too good" and have a D1-style press release. This isn't a case of a team having 2-4 kids who could have played D1 or having a couple of D1 transfers. They have a full roster of D1 level players. They are a D1 team playing D3 soccer. Again, very different than Kenyon swimming and I'm guessing your other examples in other sports as well.
You have no idea if they have D1 kids or if Kenyon's swim team has D1 kids. You just "know" soccer and believe the kids Messiah has are D1 soccer players. Lots of "can't miss" prospects miss every year. That's the way the game goes. As for your statement above about a whole team being D1 that just is another way of saying what I typed. You think they are too good for D3 and so they should think about not being D3. That's weak tea. If they got the D1 level kids by playing by D3 rules, then they are D3 and they aren't too good or a whole team at the wrong level. They are simply the best in D3. It's just a bad argument any way you try and phrase it. They have better kids so they shouldn't be here. That's not how D3 has ever worked and it is just spilled milk to keep going at it with different words.
I guess you win, especially since somehow you have intuited I have no knowledge of what I'm talking about. The above is the first time in the interchange that you questioned whether they in fact have a roster primarily of D1 level players, and I do, in fact, have knowledge of the Kenyon swimming program. At any rate, the topic arose for because obviously I believe Messiah has a great program and it's mostly a compliment to say Messiah could compete at the D1 level. Until next time.
Good discussion guys ... Also, I found it interesting that in the "2014 surprise team" discussion, the talk was about how you can't believe the claims of who is a "heavily recruited D1 player". Seems that caution would apply here too. I don't think Messiah's success is predicated solely on having better players - they play many teams that have players just as athletically gifted or more so, so there has to be more going on there.
BTW - where is the "press release" of their 2014 class? Is it just on their website?
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 20, 2014, 07:48:38 PM
I guess you win, especially since somehow you have intuited I have no knowledge of what I'm talking about. The above is the first time in the interchange that you questioned whether they in fact have a roster primarily of D1 level players, and I do, in fact, have knowledge of the Kenyon swimming program. At any rate, the topic arose for because obviously I believe Messiah has a great program and it's mostly a compliment to say Messiah could compete at the D1 level. Until next time.
I'm questioning anyone being able to tell, from an incoming freshman class, how good those players really are. Considering how many can't misses miss and how many kids slip through the cracks that could play at higher schools, it is extremely unlikely to believe that Messiah's whole incoming class is D1 level.
I also think you overestimate your knowledge of Kenyon's swim team. I just pulled times from the championship meets in D1 and D3. In a small sample of events Kenyon's top swimmer would have finished inside the top 50 at the D1 championship in the following events:
500 freestyle
50 yard freestyle
200 yard medley
200 yard freestyle
100 yard breast.
That was 5 of the first 13 men's events where the Kenyon swimmer's time would have had them invited to the D1 championship and perform admirably. Kenyon didn't win all those events, in fact they only won the 200 yard free of the times listed, but all of those kids could have performed at the D1 level. They wouldn't have been champions, but they would have easily been mid-major for swimming. I stopped at that point believing that the data proves my point. I will say the relay teams were well of the pace of the D1 schools, but that is understandable. Hard to get a full relay team of D1 championship meet quality in D3, but I don't think Messiah would be in the final four of the D1 College Cup either.
D1 level talent is scattered throughout D3. Messiah just seems to get the most out of these kids in soccer on a regular basis.
Check the website. Read like D1 level recruits to me.
And you're correct, KnightFalcon, there is more to it in the sense that they are impeccably coached, exude tremendous chemistry, and play beautiful yet very attacking soccer the right way. A pleasure to watch.
Messiah is good because of Tradition.
They were one of the best teams we had to go through to win.
This was before they had won their first title, and already, the alums were strong, and the program focused on preaching History to the Current players. A Championship team needs strong Alums. This is why it seems year in and out the same teams participate in the dance.
The biggest part of the year is not November, its April/May when the alums pour gasoline on the fire that has been burning and the new recruits come in to assist in the blaze!
Alums are a program. Stronger the Alums, stronger the program.
I think you are on to something there ... I hear the annual Messiah Alumni game against the current varsity squad is a major event on the calendar for both sets of players. And there is typically a very sizeable group of alumni present at NCAA tournament games as well.
http://pdl.uslsoccer.com/home/804947.html
Messiah and the PDL:
Midfielder Jeremy Payne, midfielder Brain Ramirez, defender Josh Kremers, midfielder Danny Rowe, and defender Matt Kyne round out the five who will join a solid core of King's Warriors' returnees for 2014.
Interesting discussion. A few comments...
All D3 schools have the same high school players available to them. The opportunity for recruits is equal among all D3 schools. Recruiting is hard work. Some schools simply aren't willing to, or are not set up to, put in the grueling effort to get there.
The numbers don't seem to add up. Messiah placed only 4 players on the Mid-Atlantic All-Region team in 2013. If their "entire roster" is D1 players, they should easily place many more players on the all-region team.
Certainly Messiah must have an excellent Sports Information Director/PR Director, but perhaps we shouldn't judge the quality of their recruits and their program by a few pictures and some very well written paragraphs on their website.
Maybe there is something else going on there. Different year-round training, different playing philosophy, different coaching leadership, different overall environment - it simply can't all be recruiting. Watch them play and I think we could probably see something different. I think we have to give the coaching staff, and the overall program more credit for their success then just to say "oh, they recruit better then everyone else".
They have a clear #1 advantage.............There are no D1 christian schools that support soccer like this.
Quote from: LaPaz on May 10, 2014, 07:44:11 PM
They have a clear #1 advantage.............There are no D1 christian schools that support soccer like this.
Never thought of that. So many good d1 Catholic schools but not Christian. Best I could think of was Elon and they aren't really Christian anymore. Interesting point. +k
I think SMU, Liberty, Houston Baptist come to mind as good D1 alternatives ... particularly SMU. Not to mention many more in NAIA. So there are good scholarship opportunities out there.
LaPaz - Just want to make sure I understand your logic. I have not seen any research on this but I've got to believe that fewer than 10% of recruits are actually willing to go to a conservative Christian school with strict rules like Messiah. So having only 10% of available recruits to choose from somehow gives Messiah an unfair advantage? That must be "new math" because I can't make that math work.
D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic. Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players. They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles. The press releases don't lie either. They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.
KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU. SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school. One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.
LaPaz is correct. Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success). If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need? If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.
I agree Messiah has numerous great soccer players - I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But where I take issue is with your conjecture that they somehow have an unfair recruiting advantage. You said..."Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation". By orientation you mean the fact that they are a Christian/religious/faith-based college. Now let's all agree that's there's nothing wrong with that. But your assertion is that it gives them a significant recruiting advantage because there aren't many other options for Christian recruits to play college soccer so they "are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation...". Hmmm. Below is a PARTIAL list of Christian/religious/faith-based college soccer programs at all collegiate levels that a I found with a quick search on the internet. The options for recruits looking for a soccer program at this type of school are staggering - with substantial opportunities for scholarships. Please explain how Messiah is unique in its "orientation" on this list. (And I agree SMU does not belong on this list).
DIVISION 1 (Scholarships)
Liberty (SoCon)
Houston Baptist (WAC)
Oral Roberts (Southland)
Gardner-Webb University (Big South)
Campbell University (Big South)
Presbyterian University (Big South)
Lipscomb University (Atlantic Sun)
DIVISION 2 (Scholarships)
Carson Newman
Cedarville University
Palm Beach Atlantic
Anderson University
Mars Hill University
Azusa Pacific University
Malone University
Seattle Pacific University
Milligan College
Lee University
Dallas Baptist University
NAIA (Scholarships)
John Brown University
Oklahoma Wesleyan University
Dordt College
MidAmerica Nazarene
Martin Methodist
Indiana Wesleyan University
Taylor University
Bryan College
Spring Arbor University
Trevecca Nazarene University
Westmont College
Asbury University
Judson University
Biola University
DIVISION 3
Messiah College
Wheaton College (IL)
Houghton College
Gordon College
Geneva College
Eastern Mennonite University
Grove City College
Eastern University (Phila)
Hope College
Calvin College
Berry College
Bethel University
George Fox University
Greenville College
University of Mary Hardin-Baylor
The question wasn't just are there scholarship christian colleges, the question was are there other schools with a focus on soccer. Just judging by the records of the teams you mentioned, none of the D1 schools will have the "we compete for championships" hook that Messiah has. Yes, you can go to these schools and get a partial scholarship. But they are mediocre soccer schools, something Messiah is NOT.
DIVISION 1 (Scholarships)
Liberty (SoCon) 5-5, 11-9
Houston Baptist (WAC) 4-4-2, 9-7-2
Oral Roberts (Southland) 8-9-4
Gardner-Webb University (Big South) 6-4, 9-8-1
Campbell University (Big South) 5-10-4, 5-4-1
Presbyterian University (Big South) 3-15
Lipscomb University (Atlantic Sun) 11-9-2
Personally I don't think partial scholarships at D2 schools are all that much better than financial aid at D3s, but I will say some of these schools at least look like contenders. Of course, some of these are NCCAA, not NCAA, and that is a whole different, and lower, level of competition. Plus I got bored about half way through...
DIVISION 2 (Scholarships)
Carson Newman 16-6-1, 8-3
Cedarville University 13-3-4, 6-1-1
Palm Beach Atlantic 10-3-2
Anderson University 12-7-3, 4-5-2
Mars Hill University 7-10, 6-5
Azusa Pacific University
Malone University
Seattle Pacific University
Milligan College
Lee University
Dallas Baptist University
NAIA (Scholarships)
John Brown University
Oklahoma Wesleyan University
Dordt College
MidAmerica Nazarene
Martin Methodist
Indiana Wesleyan University
Taylor University
Bryan College
Spring Arbor University
Trevecca Nazarene University
Westmont College
Asbury University
Judson University
Biola University
DIVISION 3
Messiah College
Wheaton College (IL)
Houghton College
Gordon College
Geneva College
Eastern Mennonite University
Grove City College
Eastern University (Phila)
Hope College
Calvin College
Berry College
Bethel University
George Fox University
Greenville College
University of Mary Hardin-Baylor
[/quote]
Your list is misleading too. The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty. Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 13, 2014, 12:21:42 PM
Your list is misleading too. The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty. Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.
Not my list. I took it from the poster above. I just assumed they were Christian schools. I don't have any knowledge of how true that is.
Understood. And I forgot Oral Roberts which would count too.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 13, 2014, 05:39:20 PM
Understood. And I forgot Oral Roberts which would count too.
Lipscomb is certainly serious about its Christian orientation as well.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 12, 2014, 10:26:41 AM
D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic. Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players. They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles. The press releases don't lie either. They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.
KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU. SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school. One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.
LaPaz is correct. Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success). If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need? If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.
I question whether they are getting their "pick of the litter" ... Look at where the majority of their players come from. Looking at their roster, 90% are from the mid-Atlantic region. So at best they are getting their share of players from their region. In contrast, Wheaton (IL) pulls from across the country.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 13, 2014, 12:21:42 PM
Your list is misleading too. The only D1 you listed that I would think of as having a serious and dominant religious orientation is Liberty. Certainly not Campbell, Presbyterian (despite the name) or Gardner Webb.
You know your argument about Messiah having some sort of unfair recruiting advantage because of it's Christian orientation is weak when all you can do is falsely call the factual information I presented "misleading". And further, provide only personal conjecture and opinion about just three of the four dozen schools on the list as "certainly" not having a religious orientation. And still further, never even attempt to answer my question which was...given this vast list of Christian oriented college soccer programs - how does Messiah's Christian orientation make them unique and give them an unfair recruiting advantage?
All the schools I listed have a Christian/religious/faith-based orientation. I have no reason to defend the three schools you take exception with as being religiously oriented, but to defend my own sincerity I will do so. Then I will get back to addressing your opinion on Messiah soccer recruiting in my next post.
Here are the facts...
Gardner Webb
The very first thing you read on the home page of their website...
"Gardner-Webb University is a liberal arts, Christian college nestled in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. At Gardner-Webb, we seek a higher ground in higher education – one that embraces faith and intellectual freedom, balances conviction with compassion, and inspires in students a love of learning, service and leadership."
Campbell University
Here is the first line from the Welcome Letter on their website from the President of the University... "I am pleased to welcome you to Campbell University - A place where faith, learning and service excel." Notice he listed faith first, even before learning. It's your opinion versus the actual words of the President. I'm going with the Pres.
Presbyterian
Here are the words lifted right from their mission statement...
"-To acquaint students with the teachings and values of the Christian faith"
"-To help students develop moral and ethical commitments, including service to others"
Quote from: KnightFalcon on May 13, 2014, 08:21:20 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 12, 2014, 10:26:41 AM
D3Soccerwatcher, I can't follow YOUR logic. Yes, they also have great coaching, great facilities, great tradition and team chemistry, etc, but they ALSO have great soccer players. They can't make their whole team All-Americans, but they've had a run on national POYs as a ton of kids who play PDL and for clubs like the Charlotte Eagles. The press releases don't lie either. They have top-notch talent for D3, and their 2nd 11 likely would be a top 10 or top 5 team nationally too.
KnightFalcon, I can't think of a school more different from Messiah than SMU. SMU doesn't come to mind for me as a religious school. One of the richest, preppiest, and frat-oriented schools in the country.
LaPaz is correct. Messiah has an enormous recruiting advantage because of its orientation (and of course combined with its tradition and success). If we accept the 10% number, and also assert that a certain percentage of D1 prospects are drawn to Messiah because of its orientation and tradition, then how many interested recruits do you need? If you get basically your pick of the litter out of the 10% then that likely still puts you way ahead of every other D3.
I question whether they are getting their "pick of the litter" ... Look at where the majority of their players come from. Looking at their roster, 90% are from the mid-Atlantic region. So at best they are getting their share of players from their region. In contrast, Wheaton (IL) pulls from across the country.
Very good point...based on facts.
So their dominance is due to NOT having better players? All due to intangibles? Just superior coaching and commitment to everyone else even though there are some are very fine coaches and proud programs out there. Just watch them versus other D3s. They look like superior players from my eye test.
We can argue all day, but there is a difference in degree in terms of Christian immersion between schools like Messiah, Wheaton, Calvin, Liberty, etc and schools that identify as having some Christian roots and some ties to the Christian faith. A lot of LACs in particular used to have a tie to some religious affiliation and that is either gone completely (in a formal sense) or very loose at this point. Davidson would be a great example, a school that even when it did highlight its tradition with Presbyterian roots NEVER came close to being a school like a Messiah or Wheaton. Maybe we are talking semantics here, but at least in my mind there are huge differences.
I hear what you are saying - I just think you are overplaying any supposed advantage. Not sure how much you have seen Messiah play or what teams you follow, but I wonder if players from Loras, Williams or Ohio Wesleyan would say they played against athletes superior to themselves when they played Messiah - I'm thinking they would not.
Maybe, but I think, at least in the case of Williams, they would acknowledge that Messiah (as a whole) has more talented soccer players. I guess whether they are better athletes could be argued. I don't know if there is another school besides Loras that can challenge in terms of the depth of Messiah, and even with Loras it's a stretch since Loras is still looking for its first title. Messiah has won 9 or 10 out of the last 11 titles, no? Not easy in a sport like soccer where a bounce of the ball can yield a loss in a one and done tournament even when possession might be 75/25 or more the other way. I can't imagine there have been many games in the past 5 years where Messiah didn't have a head-to-head advantage for at least 8-9 of the 11 positions on the field. Bottom line for me -- Messiah's players are really, really good. Wheaton, Calvin and Hope all have very strong D3 programs but I think we can agree that the Messiah is the premier program in D3 for Christian soccer players.
A college's Christian orientation is part of it's DNA. It's not anything they have worked for or earned...it's simply who they are. This DNA does not make them better recruiters or give them some unfair advantage in sports. If that were the case then Wheaton, Calvin, Liberty and others would all be at the top every year and they are not. With so many Christian oriented college soccer programs in the country it can't be that Messiah is the only single program that benefits from it.
Does Messiah have an advantage when it comes to recruiting. YES. But that advantage has been fairly earned. It's been earned by meticulously building a powerful program over the past 30+ years. It's been perpetuated by giving the reigns of the program to Head Coaches who were former Messiah players. Each coach was mentored as an assistant first and understood the program and continued to build it. The continuity there over the past 30+ has been amazing. Through all the years the program kept its laser focus on excellence and doing the right things, the right way, all the time - no exceptions - ever. You can read about all this in the book "The Messiah Method - The Seven Disciplines of the Winningest College Soccer Program in America" by Michael Zigarelli. It gives an insiders look into some of the ingredients of the secret sauce at Messiah.
As Messiah continued to build their program, their success attracted better players and that has snowballed to where they are today. Hats off to Messiah. They have earned it...FAIRLY. So yes Messiah recruits very good players. But I think most Messiah watchers would say that putting these very good recruits through the Messiah system helps turn them into great players. Hats off to the coaches and the strength of the program and system it promotes.
Do I have a son in college right now? YES. He goes to one of those schools that's been beat by Messiah. I admire Messiah for what they have done and simply acknowledge that the soccer program there (both men's and women's) just oozes excellence. From the way they carry themselves off the field, to their play on the pitch - it's something to behold. Everyone from the starters to the last player off the bench are on the exactly the same page - so very organized. Excellence on and off the field breeds excellence in recruiting too. THEY HAVE EARNED IT -- FAIRLY!
The question is...will they be able to continue stay on top? I think they are going to be around for a while...but time will tell. And certainly there are excellent D3 teams (with great players) knocking at the door.
So I look forward to D3Soccer in 2014. And I will acknowledge and appreciate excellence in soccer...wherever it comes from.
Well maybe you have identified the rub. I didn't mean to imply that Messiah has done anything unfairly. If you read through the whole thread I think you will see that I praised all of the attributes of the program that you note, and I described them as a joy to watch because they play the right way. I admire their excellence, which of course is the only reason one can wonder about how they would fare in D1. I have watched them play and they handle themselves on the pitch with great character while still showing great team spirit and competitiveness. I don't see the idea of them earning their success fairly as incompatible with the idea that they now have a significant advantage. In my view both can be true. I can't imagine that another D3 had as strong of a recruiting year as Messiah (at least on paper). We can all probably agree that Messiah is extremely difficult to beat, and other than the percentages which would suggest a school will eventually lose once in a while if even by fluke there is no reason not to pick them as heavy favorites again in 2014.
I would characterize our other disagreement as mostly attributable to a difference between colleges with Christian affiliations and colleges that are deeply evangelical in nature. I don't think there are a large number of the latter, and I still would claim there is something to the fact that Messiah, Wheaton, Calvin and Hope all have had very successful D3 programs, with the first two in the top 5 and the first 3 in at least the top 10. Messiah, in addition to everything you noted, also enjoys some geographic advantage compared to the other 3 insofar as the other 3 are more likely to be competing against each other more often in terms of recruiting because of regional proximity.
when you have a program that has been incredibly successful like Messiah, especially in a weak conference... they clearly have a shot at the title every single year. When you can afford to expend your starters to only play 50-60 min a game during the regular season, that definitely helps for a national championship run (especially as a host during early rounds).
Messiah could possibly win another 3 titles over the next 10 years... and to say that is crazy, but it could very well happen. And as you read this... if you thought otherwise, it just goes to show the power they have.
"We whole-heartedly believe that we are a Division I soccer program participating at a Division III school."
Interesting quote from Coach Rothert at Loras in context of this discussion.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 20, 2014, 11:51:24 PM
"We whole-heartedly believe that we are a Division I soccer program participating at a Division III school."
Interesting quote from Coach Rothert at Loras in context of this discussion.
Division I NCAA Tournament has a roster limit of 21 players, might hurt their chances ;)
Im pretty sure Loras beat Drake, the year after drake went to the elite 8. There is no doubt that the top division III teams can compete with the division I programs. We should not be comparing division I basketball and football with division I soccer in terms of talent level. Every school has a basketball team, but not every school at the division I level has a soccer team so the gap is narrowed between divisions.
Quote from: PickettStreetParty on May 21, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
Im pretty sure Loras beat Drake, the year after drake went to the elite 8. There is no doubt that the top division III teams can compete with the division I programs. We should not be comparing division I basketball and football with division I soccer in terms of talent level. Every school has a basketball team, but not every school at the division I level has a soccer team so the gap is narrowed between divisions.
Yes Loras beat Drake in a preseason match in 2010. Drake went 8-8-2 that year and lost in the quarterfinals of the MVC tournament.
We also should not be putting too much stock into a preseason match against a completely different team a season removed from success...
No way, really??? They beat Drake in 2010? That's like saying, "hey Rutgers-Camden tied Messiah in 2010 preseason... a team that is better than Drake"
Let's see how they do against 8-8-4 2013 Drake in 2014 preseason...
I think that was just backing up Coach Rothert's statement showing that he believes they can compete at that level. Not trying to step on any toes here
Check out this highlight video posted by Messiah. Their commitment to quality play and the positive energy and enthusiasm they display is amazing...it just oozes out of them. Also listen to the background music they selected, I think it seems to reflect them well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcWu6yFeY_M
D3SW, I'm putting this response here so that we aren't talking about non-NESCAC things on the NESCAC thread.
You seem to like presenting some very limited data to maintain your points. Yes 7-2 on SOG in the Messiah-Lycoming game but 32-2 overall. Lycoming had 2 total shots total all game and reportedly played with 10 men behind the ball in Messiah's final 3rd. Is that what you mean by "figuring out how to play Messiah"?
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 16, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
D3SW, I'm putting this response here so that we aren't talking about non-NESCAC things on the NESCAC thread.
You seem to like presenting some very limited data to maintain your points. Yes 7-2 on SOG in the Messiah-Lycoming game but 32-2 overall. Lycoming had 2 total shots total all game and reportedly played with 10 men behind the ball in Messiah's final 3rd. Is that what you mean by "figuring out how to play Messiah"?
NCAC New England - good call on moving this discussion to this thread.
I think what often happens is coaches are too proud to completely change their system for a given game to give their team a chance to win. Lycoming had a new coach last year and he knew defense was going to be important for his program to progress. So he focused on that. Also having played Messiah earlier in the season he knew he would have to defend even harder to give his team a chance to win in the conference play-offs. I'm sure he didn't want to put 10 field players behind the ball all game, but I think he also knew that if he could hold Messiah to 5-7 shots on frame he at least would a have chance - however ugly that might look on the stat sheet. Kudos to him. Conversely, you have teams, who for whatever reasons, decide to go head-to-head, straight up against Messiah and end up losing big (even in the national semi-finals), instead of focusing on defending and giving themselves a chance to win in the end. That's what I was talking about. Does that make sense?
Yes, that makes a lot of sense.....just not when you use that to make an argument that Messiah wasn't even a league winner and that then means something significant vis-a-vis the NESCAC, although frankly I can't even recall what point you were trying to make with demoting Messiah as a conference non-winner.
I attend Messiah College and write about d3soccer for both Philly Soccer Page and D3soccer.com. Layton Shoemaker laid a key foundation to the success it has found today. He sadly passed on January 1 2013. For those who want to learn more about the Messiah program - men's and women's soccer - I highly suggest reading the book The Messiah Method.
As many pointed out, Messiah soccer won't go to d1 because the whole athletic program - 22 teams- would have to go to d1. Also, Messiah puts an equal importance on education and athletics.
Quote from: ppn512 on August 24, 2014, 04:02:57 PM
I attend Messiah College and write about d3soccer for both Philly Soccer Page and D3soccer.com. Layton Shoemaker laid a key foundation to the success it has found today. He sadly passed on January 1 2013. For those who want to learn more about the Messiah program - men's and women's soccer - I highly suggest reading the book The Messiah Method.
As many pointed out, Messiah soccer won't go to d1 because the whole athletic program - 22 teams- would have to go to d1. Also, Messiah puts an equal importance on education and athletics.
I understand that and agree, but the idea that all of d1 doesn't place an equal importance on education and athletics is false.
Maybe this has been covered, but is it true that Messiah would have to be D1 in all sports???
Hopkins is D1 for lacrosse only, Union and a few others for ice hockey only, etc.
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 25, 2014, 12:37:37 PM
Maybe this has been covered, but is it true that Messiah would have to be D1 in all sports???
Hopkins is D1 for lacrosse only, Union and a few others for ice hockey only, etc.
See page 1, second post...
OK, thanks. I thought I vaguely remembered something like that.
Do you know what the reasoning was from the NCAA?
I'm not a big wikipedia fan, but this has a surprisingly good explanation that I could find on short notice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_III_%28NCAA%29
See the section on DIII schools with DI programs about 1/4 of the way down the page. I know that no scholarship athlete can cross over. So if you go to Johns Hopkins to play lacrosse you can't also play football, I believe that is regardless of whether you are on scholarship for lacrosse.
Should Tufts go D1?
Put at least ONE star on their crest before starting the crazy talk ;)
FW,
Found this all-decade team from the old d3soccer.net forum:
1st team All-Decade 2000-2010
F: Matt Bills: 2002 3rd team AA; 2-time 1st team All-Region & Conference POY ('03 & '02); 3-time 1st team All-Conf ('03-'01); T-1st in career goals (68) (likely 1st but for sr. year injury); 2nd in career points (162); T-8th in career assists (26); Record 4 straight GW goals in 2002 playoffs, including all-time neglected scorer in OT winner (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le_20gew4wQ at 4:14).
RW: Troy Sauer: 3-time All-Region ('01 -'00 1st & '02 2nd); 3 time 1st team All-Conf ('02-'00); 3rd in career assists (33); T-15th in career points (93); Unofficial leader in assists taken away under DB.
LW: Dan Wagner: Runaway winner by 30+ votes; 2005 3rd team All-Region; 2-time All-Conf ('06 1st & '05 2nd); T-8th in career assists (26).
MF: Hayden Woodworth: Leading vote-getter among all nominees; Messiah's 1st National POY ('02); 2-time AA (1st in '02 & 2nd in '00-injured in '01); 2-time 1st team All-Region ('02 & '00); 2000 Conference POY; 3-time 1st team All-Conf ('02, '00 & '99); 2003 4th rd pick of DC United; 1st overall pick in 2002 NISL draft by Harrisburg Heat.
MF: Geoff Pezon: 2010 National POY; 2-time 1st team AA ('10 & '09); 2009 Conference POY; 3-time 1st team All-Region & All-Conf ('09-'07); 1st in career assists (46); T-7th in career goals (54); 4th in career points (154); 20 career GW goals.
MF: Kai Kasiguran: 2007 National POY; 4-time AA (1st team: '07 & '05; 2nd team: '06 & '04); 3-time Conference POY ('07-'05); 13th in career points (97); 2008 1st rd supplemental draft pick of Chicago Fire; has own Wiki page.
RB (tie): Jon Brubaker: 2-time All-Conference (1st in '05 & 2nd in '04); Started 70 of 72 games in the back between '03 and '05—over 3 year span, defense gave up an average of only .375 goals/game.
(tie): Kevin Schneider: Unofficial NCAA DIII leader for career minutes by field player without a goal; Messiah-record 17 SOs during sr. year; Played in every single game between '99 & '02 (96 games); played in every minute of every playoff game both fr. & sr year.
LB: Josh Mull: 2008 1st team All-Conf; 2007 2nd team All-Conf; prior to injury sr. year, had started 58 games between '06 & '08.
JD Binger: Most votes among defenders; 2008 National POY; 2-time 1st team AA ('08 & '07); 3-time All-Region (1st in '08 & '07; 3rd in'06); 2008 Conference POY; 3-time 1st team All-Conf. ('08-'06).
Aaron Faro: 2001 3rd team AA; 2-time All-Region (1st in '01 & 2nd in '02); 2001 Conference POY; 3-time 1st team All-Conf ('02, '01 & '99); Messiah-record 17 SOs during sr. year; Likely the most versatile player of the decade.
GK: Dustin Shambach: 2-time All-Region (1st in '05 & 2nd in '06); 2-time 1st team All-Conf ('06 & '05); 1st in career shutouts & career GAA (min. 3500 MP).
Reserves (Nominees with the next ten highest vote totals listed by position)
David McClellan: 2005 National POY; 2-time 1st team AA & 1st team All-Region & 1st team All-Conf ('05 & '04); 2004 Conference POY; 9th in career goals (52) & T-8th in career points (126); Most total votes received for a non-starter.
Danny Thompson: 2010 1st team All-Conf; 9 career playoff goals; only current player voted all-decade.
Patrick Lenehan: 2007 2nd team AA; 2-time All-Region (1st in '07 & 2nd in '06); 3-time 1st team All-Conf ('07-'05); 14th in career points (94); Leading vote getter for super sub; best case for biggest shaft by not being nominated as a right winger.
Nick Thompson: 2010 2nd team AA; 3-time All-Region (1st team in '10 & '09 & 3rd team in '08);
2010 Conference POY; 4-time All-Conf (1st team in '10-'08 & 2nd team in '07); T-7th in career goals (54) & T-8th in career points (126); Messiah-record 7 career goals vs. Etown.
Dan Visser: 2007 1st team All-Region; 2-time 1st team All-Conf ('06 & '07); Best holding MF of the decade.
Matt Snavely: 2-time 1st team All-Conf ('02 & '01); Messiah-record 17 SOs during sr. year; Overcame many diseases; Versatile 1st reserve at either LW or LB.
Eric Frey: 2007 2nd team All-Conf; Only 3rd place positional nominee to receive double digit votes.
Brown Vincent: 2003 2nd team AA & 1st team All-Region; 2-time All-Conf (1st in '03 & 2nd in '02).
Andy Rosamilia: 2006 2nd team All-Conf; 1 of only 2 Messiah players with 4 rings (B. Faro).
Aaron Schwartz: Heart & soul of '98-'01 squads. Played majority of games during first championship season in 2000; beat out classmate & 2001 1st team AA Chris Boyles by 1 vote.
I remember this list and discussion. I wasn't in the country to see Josh Mull play, so I'm biased in favor of Matt Snavely at LB. Imagine DMac (David McClellan) as a reserve! Wow! And just think about the current graduating class and how they would shake up the line-up. Jack Thompson pushing Dan Wagner out? Payne's gotta get in the starting line-up, right? Or just a reserve? Is there any room for Ramirez? And where does Carter Robbions rank? Does he unseat Faro in the starting line-up or only gets a spot on the bench?
I agree on Snavely as I have said previously on this board.
I was about to post almost the identical here. Wags bumped by JT or is that a tie? Payne can't crack that mid of Kai, Hayden, Pezon so I would have to bump out Sauer. Robbins for Faro baaarely.
I also think Boyles the master of the drop kick was the best GK.
As far as 2010 to 2015
FW: Wood
RW: Kovach (Brandt to eventually take his spot)
LW: JT
MF: Payne
MF: Myer
MF: Ramirez
LB: Kremers
CB: Kyne
CB: Robbins
RB: Frey
GK: West
My team would be:
JT Bills Payne
Pezon Hayden Kai
Snavely Robbins Binger Brubaker (with Binger pressing fwd)
Boyles
This is the first time I've ever read this room. Wow, the first page is practically jknezek's Greatest Hits. That was some serious knowledge-dispensing on his part regarding D3 rules and philosophy.
In hilarious news, Jack Thompson was omitted from the 1st team All region selection again.
The fact that him or his brother Danny will never have an All-American plaque next to their name is ridiculous. Especially in Jack's case. Jack is as dominant of a player in D3 as I've ever seen, and it was all 4 years with him. Voters should be embarrassed.
Yes, Jack Thompson not getting NSCAA All-American last year and this year is ridiculous. The price paid for being a great player on a stacked team, I guess. I should be noted that D3soccer.com had him as AA 3rd team as a freshman and AA 2nd team last year.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 10, 2014, 04:42:51 PM
My team would be:
JT Bills Payne
Pezon Hayden Kai
Snavely Robbins Binger Brubaker (with Binger pressing fwd)
Boyles
I didn't get to see Pezon live in person, so I am handicapped deciding between him and Payne in midfield. I don't think you can put Payne out as the RW as he's never played there for Messiah. I stick with Troy Sauer to stay with a true winger, and remember, he was the first player to threaten Dave Brandt's career assist record, before Pezon and Jack Thompson came along and actually broke it. I like the back line. Aaron Faro and Robbins is a toss-up for me, but if not starting Faro would be one of the super subs as he was top notch as a forward and a converted centerback. DMac would be another super-sub if he can't start.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 10, 2014, 04:58:01 PM
In hilarious news, Jack Thompson was omitted from the 1st team All region selection again.
The fact that him or his brother Danny will never have an All-American plaque next to their name is ridiculous. Especially in Jack's case. Jack is as dominant of a player in D3 as I've ever seen, and it was all 4 years with him. Voters should be embarrassed.
This is an absolute travesty. Jack Thompson not on the 1st All Region? You have to be kidding me. Payne, Ramirez, and Robbins are all very deserving for sure and I'd be equally disappointed if any of them didn't make it. But leaving Thompson, the all-time leading assist leader at Messiah, off the 1st team is hard to believe. He is a dominant player up top - giving other teams fits all year long. This is very disappointing. I'm sure Flying Weasel has a point about being on a stacked team (and maybe they limit the number from each team who can make it)...but that really shouldn't matter. The best players should be 1st team all-region no matter what team they are on. Thompson is one of the best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MegvQPuRGTU&index=23&list=UU9rv22_3hj3GhnB9vpF1l-g
Here's a link from a highlight from Thompson setting up one of his patented assists...and this is the guy who didn't make the all-region team. Still not sitting right with me.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 11, 2014, 12:13:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MegvQPuRGTU&index=23&list=UU9rv22_3hj3GhnB9vpF1l-g
Here's a link from a highlight from Thompson setting up one of his patented assists...and this is the guy who didn't make the all-region team. Still not sitting right with me.
Not too shabby...not too shabby!