Wanted to start a thread that promotes comments and analysis about all of our D3 faves from a national perspective since many of the threads seem to be very conference-specific.
Great job with the new poll about some great opening weekend matchups.
In addition to those a few others caught my eye...
Hobart vs Brandeis
Ill Wesleyan traveling east to take on Wheaton (MA) and Babson
Montclair vs Skidmore
VA Wesleyan vs York and then Rutgers-C
Chicago vs Dominican
Case Western vs Roanoke and Lynchburg
Centre vs Emory
Ithaca vs Oneonta
Rutgers-N vs Emory
Randolph vs Johns Hopkins
TCNJ vs Messiah
And for the next weekend, SLU vs Rochester has got to be the game of the week.
P.S. Credit to F&M for coming right out of the gate with Rutgers-C and away to York.
Correction: looks like F&M actually is hosting.
York hosts on Friday. F&M hosts on Saturday.
Yeah, that was tough to figure out. Strange scheduling, but at least F&M gets a home game out of that brutal start.
OWU opens the season with games against Calvin (at Calvin) and Hope (at Hope) on consecutive days in August.
Brandeis v. Hobart should be interesting.
Former champions Brandeis are nothing if not consistent.
They seem to hit a bump in the dance each year, perhaps due to a lack of physicality in the deeper rounds.
Hobart has never been accused of being non physical, but their play has falen off in the last 3 or so years. At the turn of the decade, they were a team to be reckoned with who would be a shoe in for the weekly Top 20 in the nation.
This year they must improve and this is a good place to start.
If Hobart wins, look out for a much improved season.
Ithica v. Oneanta should also be fun.
Oneanta are not that far removed from their amazing final 4 run in 11' that saw them losing to eventual champs OWU.
The last couple seasons have been sub-par by their standards, but they have the genes to do damage on any given Saturday.
Ithica has been good for a very long time, Since current St. Lawrence Coach was wearing their #10 shirt in the early 80s. You can always count on Ithi ca to be very relevant every 4 or so years recently., The Marlins of D3 Soccer.
IMHO this is going to be a very interesting year for OWU. They are the last team besides Messiah to win it all. They are coming off two superb seasons that ended very abruptly with their opening NCAA games. They lost a big senior class. There will be no shortage of talent I'm sure, as they do have key players returning, but on the other hand DePauw and Kenyon and even Oberlin have closed the gap. OWU narrowly landed ahead of Kenyon in the coaches' preseason poll, but my early read would be DePauw, Kenyon, and then OWU, with Oberlin solidly in the 4th spot. The NCAC looks to be very competitive this year with the 4 already mentioned, and will be even tougher if Denison has a good year and if Allegheny can rebound.
Watch out for Brandeis this year. The Judges are loaded. May take them 5-6 games to get all of the pieces in sync and of course they need to avoid key injuries, but a very deep run is possible.
Regarding the upcoming Brandeis-Hobart match, I was surprised to see that Hobart's 2013 Liberty League Rookie of the Year center midfielder was not on the 2014 roster. Is he injured (severely)? Did he return to Hobart?
Messiah will have a couple of tests early as they travel to NJ to play back-to-backs on opening weekend against NJAC members TCNJ and Rowan
York vs VWU will have live stats and video... doesn't hurt to check at 2 pm for the F&M v RUC game, as that should likely be on as well.
Nice start to the season for Calvin with a gritty 2-1 victory over OWU in OT. Calvin looked done at the half and maybe a bit fortunate to be down only 0-1. But they came out much stronger in the second half getting a header off a corner kick to tie.
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 24, 2014, 02:13:42 PM
Wanted to start a thread that promotes comments and analysis about all of our D3 faves from a national perspective since many of the threads seem to be very conference-specific.
Great job with the new poll about some great opening weekend matchups.
In addition to those a few others caught my eye...
Hobart vs Brandeis
Ill Wesleyan traveling east to take on Wheaton (MA) and Babson
Montclair vs Skidmore
VA Wesleyan vs York and then Rutgers-C
Chicago vs Dominican
Case Western vs Roanoke and Lynchburg
Centre vs Emory
Ithaca vs Oneonta
Rutgers-N vs Emory
Randolph vs Johns Hopkins
TCNJ vs Messiah
And for the next weekend, SLU vs Rochester has got to be the game of the week.
P.S. Credit to F&M for coming right out of the gate with Rutgers-C and away to York.
Unlike football, basketball (both genders) and baseball, IWU is traditionally pretty lousy in soccer. It will give a point of reference between the Wheatons, however, as IWU is in the same conference as Wheaton IL.
University of Rochester loses to Morrisville 3-2.
This Morrisville team does look a bit strong however.
They are playing better non-conference competition lately in order to get in and be ready for a possible DANCE.
Montclair beats Skidmore 3-2
Tough to give an assessment of the game. The field was that bad, but both teams could be heard from down the road.
KnightFalcon, were you at the Calvin game too? You said you were at every Messiah tournament game, then last week's Wheaton exhibition. Are you D3soccer's roving reported with a special interest in the religious-affiliated programs?
Went to Brandeis v Hobart. 5-0 Brandeis and they absolutely dominated. Hobart held them off for about 60 minutes and then the flood gates opened with "the dice" scoring 5 goals in about 15 minutes. Brandeis still playing some attractive soccer, playing quick and on the surface. They are a very skilled team and have some great team speed. I have said this before but they do lack some size and physical toughness which could hurt them in November but a very good team and entertaining to watch. Hobart I was disappointed in. I last saw them in 2011 at Babson and they had some good players and and were a above average d3 team. They did not have the talent and are lacking in depth. Hobart used to be able to push anyone thru admissions, not sure if that has changed.
Hmmmm, never thought of that - but it helps to live in the Midwest and have a connection to each program though.
Watch out for Wheaton (MA). Quietly off to a very strong start and now 3-0 after a good win again today. Wheaton at Brandeis will be an interesting matchup in a few weeks.
Stevens loses to Farmingdale, and Framingdale loses today to Baruch 3-1. Go figure.
Cabrini beats Camden 2-1
Camden youth is showing; not winning the 50/50's and not playing well in offensive third. Crazy ending; intentional handball in/around the box with less than ten seconds (AR has flag up and ref doesn't blow whistle or atleast you can't hear if he did). The horn sounds, but after deliberation two seconds were added... can't tell if the ball was placed inside from the video angle.
Big shootout going on with SLU and Rochester with 5 goals already in 1st half and UR up 3-2.
Has anyone seen Kenyon play? I feel them jumping 10 spots to number 4 seemed a bit hefty despite a good start. What was the reasoning for such a big jump?
Quote from: chelseafc30 on September 05, 2014, 10:07:10 PM
Has anyone seen Kenyon play? I feel them jumping 10 spots to number 4 seemed a bit hefty despite a good start. What was the reasoning for such a big jump?
Generally the top team in each region is in the top 8 of the NSCAA national rankings. With OWU's loss at Calvin, and Kenyon returning pretty much everyone from a Sweet 16 team, they jumped. They also pasted Carnegie Mellon on the road, although it looks like CMU might be pretty down this year.
The Kenyon jump was a big one but there were some other big moves that raised my eyebrows just as much, like Wheaton (Ill) jumping UP 5 spots after a loss, Amherst dropping 6 spots without even playing (although weak result in first game would have warranted the drop), Ohio Northern jumping 9 spots, Oneonta jumping to #13 from Receiving Votes, Calvin jumping to #19 from NR after a loss, Wash U up 8 spots after a loss, etc, etc. And in the other direction probably a surprise that F&M didn't move up further after 2 quality wins. As for Kenyon, a deep run always involves some good fortune and there is a long way to go, but they really only lost one star player who missed chunks of last season with injury. Everyone else is back, including the back 4 and GK, the forwards, and most of the midfield. They also added a D1 transfer and a strong frosh class with at least a few frosh who will be in the mix. Kenyon has a senior-heavy team with lots of quality experience augmented by some very talented underclassmen. Someone will have to play a very good game and get a good bounce or two to beat them.
Basically it looks like Messiah and Loras are in a category by themselves and everything after that is up for grabs.
In New England, Brandeis is very, very good again and watch out for Wheaton (MA). Amherst vs Middlebury one to watch for tomorrow.
The other thing with the rankings is that some of the expected heavyweights stumbled out of the gate -- Rutgers-C, Stevens, York, Rochester, etc. Rochester should now be back on track with the win over SLU.
Wheaton (MA) already up 3-0 on Keene State inside of 25 minutes.
5-0 Wheaton, still 1st half
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 06, 2014, 11:02:12 AM
The Kenyon jump was a big one but there were some other big moves that raised my eyebrows just as much, like Wheaton (Ill) jumping UP 5 spots after a loss, Amherst dropping 6 spots without even playing (although weak result in first game would have warranted the drop), Ohio Northern jumping 9 spots, Oneonta jumping to #13 from Receiving Votes, Calvin jumping to #19 from NR after a loss, Wash U up 8 spots after a loss, etc, etc. And in the other direction probably a surprise that F&M didn't move up further after 2 quality wins. As for Kenyon, a deep run always involves some good fortune and there is a long way to go, but they really only lost one star player who missed chunks of last season with injury. Everyone else is back, including the back 4 and GK, the forwards, and most of the midfield. They also added a D1 transfer and a strong frosh class with at least a few frosh who will be in the mix. Kenyon has a senior-heavy team with lots of quality experience augmented by some very talented underclassmen. Someone will have to play a very good game and get a good bounce or two to beat them.
Basically it looks like Messiah and Loras are in a category by themselves and everything after that is up for grabs.
In New England, Brandeis is very, very good again and watch out for Wheaton (MA). Amherst vs Middlebury one to watch for tomorrow.
Thanks for the description NCAC. I knew that Kenyon had returned virtually everyone from last year so I knew they would be a very tough opponent this year. I think alot of their high ranking had to do with their 3-0 thrashing of CMU, but I'm not sure CMU is of the caliber that they were first believed to be. Looking at their roster so far, it seems that some of the freshman are getting good chunks of minutes at the moment. I wasn't aware they brought in a D1 transfer. Does anyone know who the transfer is or anything about him?
And then Rochester plays to scoreless draw with Clarkson and SLU barely gets by Geneseo in OT.
Trinity (TX) falls to Texas-Dallas.
Oneonta with very strong start.
Messiah is running through gauntlet again, playing 5 NCAA tourney teams from last year:
2013 RESULT
9/13 vs. Catholic • 7:00 PM W 2-1
9/16 vs. Dickinson • 7:00 PM W 3-1
9/20 at Montclair State • 6:00 PM W 3-1
9/24 vs. York (Pa.) • 7:00 PM L 0-1 (last loss since dropping to Neumann in NCAA 2011 tourney)
9/27 at Misericordia • 1:00 PM W 3-0
With both St. Lawrence and Loras losing this weekend, does anyone want to predict what the top five will look like? Based off of last week's crazy rankings, I have NO idea what its going to look like. Messiah will obviously be #1. After that I could see any combination of Williams, Kenyon, F&M, and Montclair State or maybe some other team sneaking in. Any thoughts?
1) Messiah / F&M (9) / Dickinson (19) / Muhlenberg
2) Kenyon / Ohio Wesleyan (13) / Ohio Northern (20) / Thomas More (RV)
3) Williams / Brandeis (10) / Amherst (16T) / Wesleyan (24) / Wheaton (RV)
4) Montclair St / Emory (11) / CNU (18) / Camden (RV)
5) SUNY Oneonta / SLU (12) / RPI (21) / Rochester (RV)
6) Loras / St Thomas (16T) / UWO (23) / Luther (RV)
7) Trinity / Whitworth (15) / Occidental / Colorado
8) Hope / North Park (14) / Wheaton / Calvin
Could see NSCAA bumping F&M as high as 6 just ahead of Loras because they are unbeaten. (F&M should realistically be #2).
Could see Emory (4-0) possibly jumping MSU as they were IDLE this week.
I don't even think Loras should drop out of the top 4, but we'll see.
Emory has done very well but is 3-0-1 (tied Centre first game of season).
The notables who have had clean to very impressive starts are Messiah, F&M, Kenyon, Montclair Stata, Brandeis, Oneonta State, Wheaton (MA), Christopher Newport, Whitworth, and I suppose you can include Emory. We probably need at least another week to judge the NESCACs. Hope has done well.
Among the early stumbles, Loras is going to be fine, Wartburg is fine, Rutgers-C looks to be getting on track, SLU will bounce back, Rochester isn't going away, and Wheaton (Ill) will put a win streak together. It's hard to believe Wheaton has lost 2 games. They are really, really talented across the board, and I will pick them right now to get a win over Montclair this weekend. The question marks at this juncture are Stevens, York, GAC, Calvin and DePauw.
CNU travels to Trinity TX for a game Friday, Sept 12.
Camden travels to CNU on Sat, Sept 20 for a crucial in-region match-up.
I can see a CNU slip-up vs Methodist that is sandwiched between the two...
John Carroll blew out Denison 5-1. A little surprising.
I can see Montclair upsetting Messiah.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 10, 2014, 01:44:46 PM
That could very well happen, considering Montclair St phenomenal home record. Traditionally a top 8-15 team over the last decade, I would think this is going to be a great one. They were outplayed at Messiah last year in a torrential downpour without All-American, Mendoza. I have not seen them play this year, but given the opponents faced thus far it is hard to gauge how good they really are. Today @ Cortland St and Saturday vs Wheaton (Ill) should give us a better idea...
My mush predictions would be: Win over Cortland 3-1, Win over Wheaton 2-1, and loss to Messiah 2-1 (with a chance to be 1-1 OT)...
I agree with your predictions. I saw their game v Husson and was blown away by their domination. In particular, their freshmen looked very strong. Some of the top pre-season teams have looked shaky (Camden, Stevens, Amherst) but Messiah keeps rolling.
MSU falls to Cortland St... ehhh. Losing Mendoza and Leggett are a big piece to their puzzle from last year. Still stand by the Montclair home game predictions atleast.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 09, 2014, 07:55:42 PM
John Carroll blew out Denison 5-1. A little surprising.
Honestly, if anything, JCU has been an underachiever so far this year. They have a kid who is potential MLS material and are a very deep squad. I would look to see them continually improve. Yesterday's game was every bit as lopsided as the score would indicate.
MLS material is a tall order. What player should we be paying attention to, woacfan?
Otterbein (yes, Otterbein) beats OWU 4-1 on OWU home field.
And I stand by prediction of Wheaton over Montclair this weekend.
Anybody got a Brockport vs Union or TCNJ vs Steven score?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 10, 2014, 07:57:47 PM
MSU falls to Cortland St... ehhh. Losing Mendoza and Leggett are a big piece to their puzzle from last year. Still stand by the Montclair home game predictions atleast.
Well ... Just shows you how little I know!
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 10, 2014, 09:16:32 PM
Anybody got a Brockport vs Union or TCNJ vs Steven score?
Stevens 2, TCNJ 0...
Welcome to the forum, Corazon.
With the way Messiah is playing lately and having more than one threat, I dont see Montclair St. upsetting Messiah, but I didn't see them losing to Lycoming last year or Neumann in 2011 either. There's a reason games are played.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 10, 2014, 10:18:21 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 10, 2014, 09:16:32 PM
Anybody got a Brockport vs Union or TCNJ vs Steven score?
Stevens 2, TCNJ 0...
Welcome to the forum, Corazon.
Thank you, last guy. Been lurking for a long time. Finally decided to take the plunge. Great forum; lots of knowledgeable and respectful posters here. Will try to contribute what little I know.
Some key games this weekend --
Today
Christopher Newport vs Trinity (TX)
Saturday
Amherst vs Bowdoin
Lynchburg vs Rutgers-C
Oneonta vs Vassar
Wartburg vs St Johns
Susquehanna vs York (PA)
Middlebury vs Conn College
NC Wesleyan vs Salisbury
SLU vs Brockport
Denison vs Hope
Wesleyan vs Wheaton (MA)
Stevens vs Muhlenberg
Franklin & Marshall vs E'town
Centre vs OWU
Hobart vs Rochester
Wheaton (Ill) vs Montclair St
Sunday
Centre vs Kenyon
Loras vs St Johns
Babson vs Williams
Macalester vs Luther
Capital vs Case Western
Games of the week in bold italics above
Upset special... E'town over F&M.
I forgot St Scholastica at GAC beginning in 40 minutes. An important early season clash.
GAC snags a good 3-0 win over CSS.
DePauw and Thomas More heading to 2nd OT.
Wheaton (Ill) spanked Brooklyn 7-1.
DePauw scores first minute of 2nd OT. Morrison assist to Gonzalez. Much needed win for the Tigers.
http://instagram.com/p/sXm4sfKNS8/ rutgers camden free kick vs vwu
Stymied on any coverage of CNU vs Trinity clash. No link for live stats available.
Lynchburg 3 Rutgers-C 0
Is that a surprise?
BTW, Trinity (TX) 5-3 over CNU last night in an old fashioned Texas shootout next to the Alamo.
Oneonta with a take-notice, discount double-check 4-1 win away at Vassar.
Hiram clobbered Heidelberg 5-1 and must be much improved over last year.
Carnegie Mellon finally grabs a very solid 3-0 win against visiting Allegheny.
NESCAC results so far today trending as expected.
Still not sure about Camden this year; Starting RB was out and starting GK was out. The 3-0 result was not hardly the case, but either way the loss does not surprise me.
Camden controlled most of the game, but was unable score (hit woodwork once). Lynchburg GK came up with a few big saves and they scored nice first goal to take the lead late in the half. Camden had at least three more chances to equalize, but then Lynchburg pretty much put them away with two mistakes in the back leading to two more goals (Lynchburg 3 goals on 5 shots on target).
Looks like at this point, Camden will need to win the NJAC or get to semis to make the tournament (CNU, Haverford, Swat looming for the out-of-conference games certainly won't make it an easy task, but could also help them with good results).
MSU hits the post 30 seconds in... Wheaton 3 goals on 3 shots in first 10 minutes...
Lastguy, would you say the following is accurate? Rutgers-C isn't the kind of team they were a year ago but by tournament time will be a team you won't want to see in your side of the draw?
I thought Camden would be able to piece together a similar season that ONU did after falling to Messiah in the final and losing a good amount of Seniors. Losing the seven starters (two all-americans) will take time to grow together this year, but they could be a force in November (just have to make it there first)!
Just looking at some of the teams from last years NCAA grouping:
Stevens 2-3
York 1-1-3
MSU 3-2
RUC 4-3
CMU 3-3
Roch. 3-1-1
Kudos to Centre for aggressive scheduling but a big ask to go to OWU where played 110 minutes and then 17-18 hours later facing #2 Kenyon in Gambier. 3-0 Kenyon. The SAA does get an automatic bid this year so perhaps this weekend will help the Colonels when they head into conference play.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 14, 2014, 06:19:19 PM
Kudos to Centre for aggressive scheduling but a big ask to go to OWU where played 110 minutes and then 17-18 hours later facing #2 Kenyon in Gambier. 3-0 Kenyon. The SAA does get an automatic bid this year so perhaps this weekend will help the Colonels when they head into conference play.
Kenyon has 15 goals scored and 1 against in 5 games. They look like they're going to be very difficult to beat this year and I think they're the NCAC favorites thus far, although it's very early in the season.
Games of the Week
Monday
Westminster (Mo) at Wash U
Tuesday
Rochester at Oneonta State
Dickinson at Messiah
Thomas More at Denison
Skidmore at RPI
Bates at Bowdoin
Wednesday
Methodist at Christopher Newport
Vassar at Stevens
Johns Hopkins at York
Wesleyan at Tufts
Brandeis at WPI
Swarthmore at Richard Stockton
Amherst at Conn College
DePauw at Rose-Hulman
Carleton at GAC
Ohio Northern at OWU
Roger Williams at MIT
Thursday
Chicago at Loras
Friday
Roanoke at Randolph
Saturday
Virginia Wesleyan at Washington & Lee
Johns Hopkins at Haverford
Williams at Amherst
Franklin & Marshall at Swarthmore
Tufts at Brandeis
Messiah at Montclair State
RPI at Oneonta State
Emory at Berry
Rochester at RIT
Kzoo at Calvin
DePauw at Hiram
Rutgers-Camden at Christopher Newport
Brockport at Medaille
Rutgers-Newark at TCNJ
Western New England vs Roger Williams
Bowdoin at Middlebury
Conn College at Hamilton
York at Misericordia
Case Western at Ohio Northern
Sunday
Luther at Carleton
Messiah rolling over Dickinson 3-0 into the 2nd half, and unfortunately the Messiah announcers appear to have picked up right where they left off last year. Could only tolerate 5 minutes which is a shame because I love watching Messiah play, but the entire commentary was about Dickinson fouling, physical abuse against Messiah, and the ref not calling the game both ways despite reflecting a 9 to 3 advantage in fouls for Dickinson. Apparently they were still upset 15 minutes into the 2nd half about a PK called against Messiah in the first 10 minutes of the game.
Checked in again to make sure wasn't being unfair. 85th minute and they are still vigorously complaining about every single call and how the ref clearly has been against them the whole game. Messiah was up 4-0 and Dickinson pulled 2 back to make it 4-2 will 5 or so minutes left.
Just a word in defense of the Messiah announcers from an old Messiah soccer alum from the 1970's. The announcers admit to being "homers" and partisans on almost every broadcast. While I do not know them personally, they are not students pursuing journalism majors doing this for college credit or financial aid, they are fans with families and careers who volunteer their time to broadcast the games and they even cook the food for the tailgates before the games. Because of the service/missional nature of the college, alums and particularly soccer alums are scattered all over north,south and central America and also Africa, Asia and Europe and a few islands in between. The announcers have been doing this as a service to Messiah fans for years, long before HD video came along, and those of us who don't get to attend the games appreciate the analysis from the perspective of announcers who are fans but who clearly understand the "Messiah system". Now that Messiah has recently gained some small measure of national success and as a result the audience may have expanded beyond that handful of fans, perhaps they will have to reconsider their broadcasting approach so I will not argue with the concerns expressed above. However, I thought the Messiah announcers effusive praise of Dickinson's play, both their skill and their intensity for the last 25 minutes of last night's game clearly demonstrated their love for the beautiful game when well played. Further, I believe the announcer's enthusiasm keeps Messiah fans connected to the college and the team and partially explains why Messiah has the fan support that it does. Home game average attendance =1800, away game average attendance =200. Maybe North American soccer needs more of that informed partisanship :-). I am not trying to pick a fight, start a flame war or highjack a thread to make this Messiah-centric. Just explaining what I love about the announcers.
OldMCGuy,
Understood, and thanks for the background color. I expect coverage to be partisan and for the announcer(s) to go crazy when their team scores a goal, etc, etc. I even expect the obligatory questioning of a bad call. I used to listen to Kentucky basketball games for years via the legendary Cawood Ledford, and of course the coverage was geared to Big Blue Nation. Messiah obviously has a large and loyal following, and I even get the in-game updates on what is going on with Navy games because Coach Brandt is still considered part of the family. That said, I think it is somewhat unusual to have such a strong visceral reaction so quickly when tuning in as an outside observer or fan of the opposing team, and I know many had that reaction during the NCAA tournament last year. At a minimum, the families/fans of the opposing team tune in, and maybe a somewhat broader audience at NCAA tourney time, and so at least a faint awareness that others may be listening would be appreciated. And with Messiah as good as it is, and with a tremendous (and well-earned) home field advantage, it is a little much to hear that the ref is terrible and horribly against Messiah every single game and to hear specific, negative comments about players on the opposing team. They are apoplectic when an opposing player makes a hard tackle, but when it's a Messiah player it's a good, clean tackle even though they joke that it was close to sending the opposing player for a hospital visit. I do think it is great in general that Messiah has such strong support and comprehensive coverage. I'll just turn the audio off the next time.
NCAC,
I don't know if this appropriate behavior on a message board. But I think we can AGREE to AGREE. Although privately I hope you are forced to watch a few more Messiah broadcasts this year and hopefully into the tournament...with the sound turned off, of course. Have an excellent day.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 17, 2014, 10:36:16 AM
OldMCGuy,
Understood, and thanks for the background color. I expect coverage to be partisan and for the announcer(s) to go crazy when their team scores a goal, etc, etc. I even expect the obligatory questioning of a bad call. I used to listen to Kentucky basketball games for years via the legendary Cawood Ledford, and of course the coverage was geared to Big Blue Nation. Messiah obviously has a large and loyal following, and I even get the in-game updates on what is going on with Navy games because Coach Brandt is still considered part of the family. That said, I think it is somewhat unusual to have such a strong visceral reaction so quickly when tuning in as an outside observer or fan of the opposing team, and I know many had that reaction during the NCAA tournament last year. At a minimum, the families/fans of the opposing team tune in, and maybe a somewhat broader audience at NCAA tourney time, and so at least a faint awareness that others may be listening would be appreciated. And with Messiah as good as it is, and with a tremendous (and well-earned) home field advantage, it is a little much to hear that the ref is terrible and horribly against Messiah every single game and to hear specific, negative comments about players on the opposing team. They are apoplectic when an opposing player makes a hard tackle, but when it's a Messiah player it's a good, clean tackle even though they joke that it was close to sending the opposing player for a hospital visit. I do think it is great in general that Messiah has such strong support and comprehensive coverage. I'll just turn the audio off the next time.
NCAC,
I understand what you were saying. I am a Messiah fan and would agree the ref was being very inconsistent in his play calling. Maybe it's my own bias,but Dickinson fans agreed with me when we chatted about the referees at the half.
I think you should continue to have the sound on, but that's just me.
Check out the women's games to. There's a different crew for those games.
ppn, now I'm sorry I raised the issue at all (of course until the next time I tune in and the refs miraculously are doing the exact same thing and the opponent's players roughhousing the Messiah kids, etc, etc). Let's re-focus again. The game was 4-0 and Dickinson enjoyed a healthy 9-3 advantage on fouls called during one of the periods all of the comments were being made. It's not a game-specific issue. It's their broadcasting style (which I'm sure they are quite unapologetic about), as I think OldMCGuy confirmed in his own way. I find it off-putting; most Messiah fans clearly are going to disagree.
Predictions on Messiah @ Montclair tomorrow? One would think that playing at home and needing a signature win at this point in the season that Montclair might have half a chance, and for those very reasons this one presents Messiah with a real challenge which should have the Falcons and Falcon faithful pumped up as well. Should be a good one.
In addition to Messiah vs Montclair, there appear to be 4 other mega-matchups tomorrow -- F&M vs quietly undefeated Swarthmore (at Swat), Tufts at Brandeis as already noted in the NESCAC thread, Williams vs Amherst which if I was an Amherst fan I almost hope they would lose to reverse the trend of the last 2 years, and RPI at Oneonta. I then I would underscore Rutgers-C at CNU as the bonus big game.
F&M should smash Swat tomorrow. Swat has played junk teams under the radar.
As the homer that I am, I would think RU-C beats CNU on the road, just to stir things up in the cluster that is the South Atlantic
I think Messiah wins 3-1 tomorrow at MSU
RPI v. Oneonta is a big game for RPI.
Oneonta has dismantled Vassar and tied Rochester away with a shut-out.
RPI gets a chance to prove they can beat a quality out of conference opponent. Their win over Skidmore was quite a dominating performance, but might have told us more about Skidmore.
The real test comes now.
Lastguy,
I'll be surprised if F&M blows out Swat. Don't see that happening.
I think you are 100% correct about Messiah and your inference about the rest of the field. This could change as the season unfolds, but right now there is Messiah, a significant gap, and then everyone else. The rankings really should be blank from #2 through #5. I don't think any teams have earned that lofty a status yet. Loras would have been the team but they have some work to do in terms of proving they are at the same level of the prior 2 years. I thought SLU might be a team like that and they still could be but they haven't shown that yet. We certainly can't say that yet about Amherst and/or Williams. A lot of the big names -- Trinity (TX), Montclair, Rochester, Stevens, York, Rutgers-C, Wheaton (Ill), OWU, DePauw, Ohio Northern, etc -- have stumbled, some more impressively than others. Oneonta? Brandeis? Time will tell. Maybe a Wheaton (Ill) or Rochester because they already have faced some adversity and played difficult,challenging schedules?
F&M and Kenyon obviously have gotten a lot of early attention and rankings favor. I know F&M is good, but are they really better than last year? And did they beat any true powerhouses last year? They had Rose-Hulman to get to the Elite 8. I don't know how anyone could be really confident about saying they are #2 or #3 in the country. I am pretty sure Kenyon is better than last year, and they did beat some very good teams to advance a year ago and pushed Messiah very hard. That said, their schedule has been relatively weak and at least to this point the NCAC appears a bit down with OWU and DePauw having early struggles. I fully expect the latter 2 teams to rebound (as OWU just gave ONU a thumping), but still, right now it is what it is. Kenyon is a mature team heavy with seniors but also a good deal of soph and frosh talent. How is the mix going to add up when the competition level ratchets up and some adversity strikes? They are playing a high pressure, aggressive style. Will they be able to maintain composure in big moments?
In short, Messiah looks like a lock again for the final 4. This may be their best team in years with Payne, Thompson, Robbins, etc all seniors and some strong underclassmen supporting them. They may lose in a one game scenario but we know it won't be because the moment is too big or due to a lack of maturity. The other 3 spots appear totally up for grabs, which, from at least one vantage point, is exciting because there are a large number of teams who will feel they have the capability to make a run.
Don't vote for Randolph or Curry in new poll as both lost tonight. And Nichols tied Endicott.
Any scores for Wheaton (Ill) and Wartburg?
Carthage smoking Wartburg 3-0 with 7 left. Wacky season.
Wheaton handling Bethel.
And don't think I saw North Park on the latest poll. Also undefeated.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 19, 2014, 09:54:50 PM
And don't think I saw North Park on the latest poll. Also undefeated.
North Park is ranked. The poll is for unranked teams looking to move into the Top 25.
Thanks for the correction on North Park. Finally realized that later. Another small correction. The Oneonta-Rochester game was at Oneonta.
F&M gets 2 in last 10 minutes to beat Swat. Brandeis gets 2 in last 10 minutes to beat Tufts.
Messiah scored twice within 90 seconds in first 3 min of 2nd half and eases to 3-1 win as lastguy predicted.
For you Messiah faithful, is this year's edition potentially the best Messiah team ever?
Do Loras and Trinity (TX) always get put in the same region? Trinity doesn't get talked about much on this board where the focus tends to be on the Northeast (New Jersey, New York, New England) and the Midwest (mainly Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Minnesota and Iowa). Do Hope, Calvin, GAC, Luther, etc usually get placed in that same region? Any chance that Wheaton (Ill) would be placed in that region?
Teams like Christopher Newport, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Methodist, etc also don't get a lot of air time here. What teams from that area historically (and currently) would be considered real threats?
And still waiting on a historical assessment of this year's edition of Messiah.
Cannot do a historical assessment on Messiah until seasons end.
Unfortunately, unless they end up winning, this team will not be in the conversation of all time teams.
Its sad for many players from a few elite schools, but unfortunately anything short of a ring is a disappointment.
This sounds a bit harsh but true.
Agree - for a Messiah team to be in the conversation of best all time they have to at least clear the hurdle that 10 teams previously have cleared. Let's at least see how this year's team does against York on Wednesday. That said - I've always heard that the 2005 team was an all-time best as they won all 24 games and out scored opponents 15-2 in 5 tournament games. The 2012 edition went undefeated as well but with 2 ties and won the final 5-1.
I understand that point of view but don't entirely agree. It seems in the realm of possible that a team could be the "best" (within a season and/or historically) and be upset, and in that regard the greatness/magnitude of the upset correlates with the considered greatness of the team being upset. As just one example that you have to be of a certain age to appreciate, for my money the 1984 Nebraska football team was one of the best ever (and lost on the last play of the Orange Bowl to Miami on a 2-point conversion try). A similar but slightly different question would be whether this is most talented Messiah squad.
I'll come out of lurking to offer an opinion about this year's Falcons, compared with other top Falcon teams over the years. My ability to assess such things is limited, since I never played soccer except for one year in junior high (most high schools did not have soccer in those days). However I've watched the Falcons regularly for a long time--almost as far back as when David Brandt was playing for Layton Shoemaker (http://blogs.messiah.edu/layton-shoemaker-tribute/).
This team does have a chance to go down as one of the greatest Falcon teams, but it's too early to tell. To reach that point, IMO, they must first win another NCAA title. And, they will have to go undefeated and untied all season, not just in the tournament. Just one Falcon team has ever done that, the 2005 squad under Brandt. To compare all-time team records, go to http://www.messiah.edu/athletics/sports/mens_soccer/archives/record-book.html .
To see the game-by-game results for 2005, go to http://www.messiah.edu/athletics/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2005/TEAMSTAT.HTM.
That's obviously an impressive accomplishment, but not enough by itself to mark them as the greatest Falcon team ever. Consider this further information, and the case is stronger. That team had three (3) players who would be named POY, all playing at the same time. If you review the NCAA tournament games to see who scored, the two obvious names stand out: senior David McClellan (POY '05), one of the best overall offensive threats we've ever had, and sophomore Kai Kasiguran (POY '07). However, freshman J. D. Binger (POY '08) also started 3 games, played in 20 games, and already drew notice as one of the most talented men on the team. Indeed, our fans still remember what might be the most impressive missed shot in Falcon history, when Binger hit the crossbar with a rocket from a long way out. Had it gone in, it was a potential ESPN highlight. As it happens, it was the closest he came to scoring all season long, as he finished with just 3 SOG out of the deep midfield. He later went back into the defense, where he went on to become of the greatest defenders in Falcon history. He was undoubtedly the best soccer player on the club his senior season, and would have put up big numbers if he'd played on the front line, but he was such a superb defender and so well conditioned (he ran the mile in under 4:40, holding the all-time Falcon record) that you didn't want him anywhere else.
Binger wasn't top dog on defense in 2005, partly b/c Chris Claassen was. He was a 2 or 3-time AA who is still, to my mind, the second best on the ball defender we've had--Binger was the best. Behind him was Dustin Shambach, almost universally regarded as the best keeper we've ever had. He transferred into Messiah from D2, having played soccer and baseball elsewhere.
As for Kasiguran, he's probably one of the two best players in Falcon history. The other candidate is Hayden Woodworth (POY '02), who turned an excellent team without him into two championship teams--and almost a third, except that a serious mid-season head injury in 2001 set him back in terms of conditioning (he had to eat through a straw while recovering) and made him a bit more cautious in the air. Consequently, when he returned he wasn't 100% Hayden. It was a noticeable step down for the team, and we lost the national semi-final at home to Redlands. Taking nothing away from Redlands, mind you--they beat us fairly, and (as they say) injuries are part of the game. I'm simply pointing out how important a healthy Hayden was. In the national semi-final in 2000, our first championship season, we were down 2-0 at the half against Linfield College (Oregon), which had one of the best players our boys have ever seen, Chris McDonald. He scored both goals, and we didn't know what to do about him. In the second half, however, Hayden just took over the game completely, on both ends of the field, and we got 3 to win it. Two of them were PKs, but they were properly called. That tends to happen in NCAA tournament games--we usually see much better officiating than in many of our regular season games. (I hear the complaints about the radio broadcasters, but in my experience I just made a proper observation. I notice such things, because our style of one-touch beautiful soccer is far more adversely affected by poor officiating than some other styles are. When genuine fouls aren't being called, it really slows us down and unfairly favors a deliberately more physical side.)
I actually pick Kai over Hayden, but anyone would be jumping for joy to have either guy on your team. He was a high school AA from suburban Akron, and he turned down a scholarship from Akron to come to Messiah. That speaks volumes about his ability. Suffice it to say that, like Binger, Kai could have played effectively anywhere and he did play several positions at various times, but IMO his best position was offensive midfield. From there he could seemingly score at will himself no matter how closely guarded he was (often it was two men on him all game long), even though he usually preferred to pass to a man with an open shot. He was so good at hitting the open spaces perfectly, that his first season he missed getting a bunch of assists, b/c his teammates simply didn't move into those spaces quickly enough: they just didn't realize yet how good he was.
Kai was an All-American all four years. He won POY even after the Falcons failed to advance in the national semis vs Trinity--I think that's the only time we've ever played Trinity. That year, he actually played hurt most of the way (a sports hernia), and it was obvious to many fans that he was a step slower than in earlier years. Likewise his senior teammate Patrick Lenehan, who was so dangerous on the offensive end that one of Trinity's coaches told Brandt afterwards that they had no answer for him. Lenehan had a deep muscle bruise/pull that did not heal during the season, and he played the final stretch significantly below his normal level of fluidity. Lenehan was on that 2005 team as well. Another guy on that team, Dan Wagner, was one of the all-time leading scorers in PA high school history. He was so short that D1 teams passed on him. They shouldn't have. With Jake Tassey (a player from before Brandt's years), he is one of the two shiftiest men who's played for the Falcons. Watch him closely for a few games, and you started to believe in creation from nothing. He had the second highest total points in 2005 (after McClellan), almost never getting those by cleaning up garbage close in. He usually started with the ball about 30-40 yards out and ended up shooting an open shot , often on goal (he led the team in SOG% the next year), from somewhere in the box, usually after moving all over the place and losing one defender after another.
I've gone on too long, much too long. Maybe I'll come back later and do some comparisons with the current team, but this is far too much for now. It will take some doing to convince me that the 2014 Falcons are quite as good as 2005.
Falconer, thanks for that. I appreciate your comment about style and officiating as well, while noting that every team is impacted by how games are called, other possession teams (while perhaps not at Messiah's level) can be impacted as you suggest, and of course Messiah has to anticipate and expect all sorts of strategies and tactics just to give themselves a puncher's chance. I think we'd all agree that we'd rather suffer the Messiah conundrum is this regard rather than the opposite.
Getting back to just this year, barring a fluke scenario, I think there are only 3-4 teams nationally who have a chance of pulling an upset down the road, and by that I mean teams who might get a result or win once if given 3 or 4 chances. The teams that come to mind at the moment are Loras, Wheaton (Ill), Trinity (TX), Kenyon, and maybe Christopher Newport or OWU. I don't see a NESCAC team beating them but I'd love to hear an argument supporting that scenario.
And I appreciated your very kind comments about the Messiah players--their attitude and conduct, not just their talent--during the Final Four last year. I know it sounds like I don't really mean this, but I do mean this: their attitude and conduct is a lot more important to us than their talent, or their medals. We want them to be winners, regardless of what the scoreboard says at the end of the game. :)
I would still pick Hayden over Kai, but it's really close. Has any other player won 4 titles by way of red shirt other than Josh Wood?
Good luck picking a best Messiah class ever... I only threw three classes into the mix:
Messiah class from 2011 - Pres: 73-2-4. 259 GF / 38 GA. Two NCAA Titles, 1 Round of 32 (slip up vs Neumann). Two Conference Titles.
Messiah class from 2007 - 2010: 90-7-2. 312 GF / 50 GA. Three NCAA Titles, 1 FINAL 4 (lost to Trinity 1-0). Four Conference Titles.
Messiah class from 2002 - 2005: 88-6-4. *242 GF / 27 GA* Three NCAA Titles, 1 Sweet 16 (lost to Salisbury in PKs). Three Conference Titles.
*Could not find archived season for 2002
The current team is on pace for 309 GF / 50 GA...
I hadn't run those numbers, last guy, thank you for that information. Whether or not Hayden was a better overall player, there's no doubt he was more important to the history of the program. Without him, we wouldn't have won the first two titles (2000 and 2002), and without those, we probably wouldn't have been able to recruit other high level (for D3) players, including Kai. In short, Hayden and his teammates were responsible for getting the championship tradition off the ground. That's huge.
Concerning the 3 tournament losses you listed, the recent one to Neumann was a shock. All of our boys were healthy, the team chemistry was everything it should be, and I saw no evidence that they took Neumann lightly. All of the credit goes to Neumann for a superb game plan, perfectly executed by very quick players, leading to a brilliant goal by a top notch striker. Had I not been a Falcon fan, it would have been really fun to see.
In the other two cases, injuries to our best player(s) definitely took the Falcons down half a step for those games. I already commented on the Trinity game, for which Kai and Lenehan (our top two offensive players) were noticeably below 100%. For the Salisbury game, the best target we've had in the 30 years I've been watching, namely Matt Bills, was seriously hobbled by a leg injury. He missed several games late in the season, probably came back too early, and wasn't himself vs Salisbury or anyone else at that point in the season. Fully to see what that meant against the top-notch defense that Salisbury had that year, look up the game-by-game scoring for 2003: http://www.messiah.edu/gomessiah/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2003/TEAMSTAT.HTM . Bills, who is tied for the all-time leading Falcon goal scorer, and who scored 29 goals (!) the previous year, did not score a single goal in 2003 after Oct 22, at the end of a run (prior to his injury) when he scored 6 goals in 6 games. Without that injury, undoubtedly he would hold the spot by himself as top all-time scorer. Whether he would have scored a goal against Salisbury--and one goal wins that game--is obviously something we'll never know. If I recall correctly, that shootout went on forever. Something like 16-15, though no one should write that down as the actual score.
Bills was a bull, simply put. He wasn't subtle. He just went right through people to the goal, and if anyone else shot the ball harder I can't tell you who it was. The perfect target in our system: he didn't need to create his own shots, though sometimes he did. He just planted himself in or near the box, received, turned, and shot. He had enough speed, but he wasn't especially fast (I'm reminded of Josh Wood, though he was even slower). He could pass, but why would we want him to? He was almost always the best option available, once he had the ball at his feet in the box.
I wouldn't have gone into this, except that the context (which Falcon team has been the best?) suggests that such reflections are appropriate. Even without our best players hobbled, there's no guarantee that the Falcons would have won either of those games with Salisbury or Trinity. Indeed, that was one of the best Trinity teams (I am in no position to say which of theirs was actually the best), and they didn't get a title that year either. And, once or twice I think the Falcons have won titles that they shouldn't have won on paper. That's why they decide things on the field on a given day, isn't it?
As I said, I'll try later to compare current players to others. Can't do that right now.
Falconer,
Yes, that was my logic for putting Hayden over Kai. I thought Messiah '99 team was going to beat SLU and win the title that year, and if not... one within the next few years (which they did). I only saw Matty Bills play 6 times or so, but he was a machine. I listened to the Salisbury Messiah 2003 game on the internet, and totally forgot how long it took (I thought it was only 8 or 9).
Players that I liked back then were Greg Giordano and Matt Snavely lock down defender making those runs out of the back...
Regardless of overall record... I think the 2002 Messiah team may have been the best...
I believe there are 3 players with 4 rings ... Josh Wood being one.
Don't forget the recently graduated class from 2010-2013. 88-3-4 overall record, 3 National titles, 4 conference titles (3 conf tournament titles) and a 4 year undefeated record in conference (1 tie).
Quote from: Falconer on September 22, 2014, 11:56:38 AM
Concerning the 3 tournament losses you listed, the recent one to Neumann was a shock. All of our boys were healthy, the team chemistry was everything it should be, and I saw no evidence that they took Neumann lightly. All of the credit goes to Neumann for a superb game plan, perfectly executed by very quick players, leading to a brilliant goal by a top notch striker. Had I not been a Falcon fan, it would have been really fun to see.
Sorry Falconer, need to disagree with your assessment of that Neumann game other than, yes, it was a shock. Neumann came into that 2nd round game having won on PKs against Salisbury. Right from the start it was obvious they had no intention of playing soccer but wanted to go straight to PKs and take their chances. So what we got was one of ugliest displays of bunker ball/delay the game I have seen. Though Messiah struck wood a couple of times, the game went to OT at 0-0. A very long free kick taken by the goalie landed at the opposite 18, bounced up toward the goal where the Messiah goalie, a defender and Nuemann forward converged, jumped up, and collided at the PK spot after which the ball trickled into the goal. Give Neumann and that forward credit for making it happen, but I'm not sure I would use the word brilliant to describe it.
Falconer, continued good stuff. And thanks for seeing that someone critiquing the announcers doesn't mean he can't appreciate the greatness and class of the Messiah program overall. I do believe you that you appreciate class and conduct as much or more than winning. I also believe the players would be bitterly disappointed by losing but also lose "the right way" and credit their opponents more graciously than almost any team in the country.
A couple of stray points. All teams are impacted by how the officiating goes. A physical team is hurt by a ref that calls the game very close. And great teams overcome all kinds of strategies to defeat them. Wouldn't we be disappointed if Neumann had tried to play Messiah straight up and not even try to win? The championships mean more when everyone has tried their darnedest to defeat you. I still would never expect Messiah not to score against an inferior opponent who put 10 men behind the ball. There was a point Ryan Harmanis made last year comparing great Messiah teams with great OWU teams. They play a similar style but Messiah overall has been physically much bigger. They are one of the biggest teams I've seen, and even smaller guys like Thompson are powerfully built, strong, and fast. I'm not going to feel sorry for Messiah based on any run-out-the-clock or fouling strategies. The Messiah run is all the more remarkable because soccer games can go way against the run of play and to get through all of those games so many years in a row really is remarkable.
Games of the Week
Tuesday
RPI at Williams (Williams probably has the toughest schedule of the NESCAC teams, and after losing to Babson really needs to win a couple of these other games in case they don't finish in top 2-3 in NESCAC and if don't win NESCAC tourney, and of course a win for RPI would be big for them come tourney bid time)
Hope at Calvin (Could decide their league and/or home field for their tourney although I think both get in this year)
Wheaton (Ill) at Chicago (Wheaton must have toughest schedule in country with CNU, Rutgers-C, Wash U, York, and maybe Williams contenders....and Wheaton is looking very strong and has to be considered a strong final 4 possibility...Chicago needs a signature win as they have not done enough to snare a bid if they have just an average UAA outcome)
Gordon at ECSU (Gordon has a couple of their tougher games this week -- also WNEC on Saturday -- and we don't have a great way of evaluating how much of a threat they might be given weak schedule)
Coast Guard at Conn College (They could play first half at Conn and take a 30 sec walk to play 2nd half at Coast Guard...bragging rights for the great seaport of New London....great bridge)
NC Wesleyan at Virginia Wesleyan (Why do so many schools have a 'Wesleyan' in them?)
Heidelberg at Oberlin (Two teams with fairly high aspirations really struggling and thus far disappointing, and at a point where will have to win conference tournament for NCAA bid)
Wednesday
Brandeis at Babson (Will Brandeis slip up after big Tufts win? And will Babson add another signature win to bolster its resume?)
Salisbury at Roanoke (Roanoke is one of those teams no one talks about. Are they really good? A good South Atlantic clash.)
Emory at Birmingham-Southern (Don't know enough to comment but seems like an interesting match-up down South)
Christopher Newport at Lynchburg (I'm more and more on the CNU bandwagon. Can they make a deep run?)
York at Messiah (I don't see York slowing down the Falcon freight train, at least not right now)
St Olaf at Luther (Is Luther totally legit, or is this a big trap game for them?)
MIT at Tufts (MIT has seemed under the radar and Tufts needs to bounce right back)
WNEC at Wesleyan (The kind of game Wesleyan needs to win to make sure they don't end up on the wrong side of the bubble down the road)
William Paterson at Rutgers-C and Richard Stockton at TCNJ ( Not a NJAC expert but the picture is so clouded in the NJAC right now maybe the results hear will help begin to sort things out)
Friday
Wheaton (Ill) at Wash U (Another tough road game for the Thunder and Wash U needs a big win to bolster what will likely be a 4-2-1 or 3-3-1 UAA finish)
Saturday
DePauw at Kenyon (Finally a real test for Kenyon against a DePauw squad that I still think is one of the most talented in the country, and DePauw needs to win some of these games versus Kenyon and OWU unless they are positive they will win NCAC tourney)
Amherst at Tufts (Big opportunity for the Jumbos)
York at Christopher Newport (Another tough game for both of these teams? They will be battle-tested come tourney time if they can get bids)
Williams at Conn College (A game that interestingly Williams may need just as much as Conn does)
Rochester at Lycoming (Lycoming quietly having a good season and a win against the Yellow Jackets would make them more than just the team who lucked into a PK win over Messiah last year)
Babson at MIT (Big NEWMAC contest to perhaps produce who will be the challenger to the other Wheaton)
Montclair at Richard Stockton (Is Montclair in trouble? What would a loss do to them now?)
North Park vs Rose-Hulman (North Park needs some more good wins to increase odds for a bid)
Scranton at Susquehanna (Don't know a thing about these teams but strikes me as a good matchup)
Hamilton at Wesleyan (Big trap game for Wesleyan)
Gordon at WNEC (see previous Gordon comment)
Vassar at Skidmore (Major Liberty League contest)
St Johns at GAC (Is GAC going to run away and hide from rest of the conference?)
Muhlenberg at Gettysburg (Is Muhlenberg a serious contender in the Centennial?)
Carnegie Mellon at Grove City (CMU needs this one if they have any hopes of challenging the rest of the season)
Swarthmore at Johns Hopkins (Big game for both teams after I think both lost this past weekend)
Carthage at Chicago (Loss could be a big nail in the coffin for either of these teams)
Taking a shot at the top 25 here....
1. Messiah
2. Kenyon
3. SUNY Oneonta
4. Trinity
5. Brandeis
6. F&M
7. Emory
8. Hope
9. Luther
10. CNU
11. Loras
12. Amherst
13. Whitworth
14. Rochester
15. OWU
16. Wheaton Ill
17. RPI
18. Salisbury
19. Wheaton MA
20. Muhlenberg
21. North Park
22 St. Norbert
23. Colorado College
24. Rose-Hulman
25. Middlebury
RV - Swat, DePauw, GAC, UCSC, Birmingham-Southern
Salisbury at Roanoke (Roanoke is one of those teams no one talks about. Are they really good? A good South Atlantic clash.)
-This one is a coin flip to me... but I'd give the give the edge for Salisbury to maybe pull it out. 1-1 draw.
Emory at Birmingham-Southern (Don't know enough to comment but seems like an interesting match-up down South)
-Birmingham hasn't really been tested, would expect a 4-1 Emory win here. (Emory has won 4-2, 5-0 last two years).
Christopher Newport at Lynchburg (I'm more and more on the CNU bandwagon. Can they make a deep run?)
-CNU is legit and could be elite 8/final 4 bound from the South. CNU rolls 3-1.
York at Messiah (I don't see York slowing down the Falcon freight train, at least not right now).
-York is definitely as not good as they were last year, Messiah keeps on rolling... Revenge game 3-0.
William Paterson at Rutgers-C and Richard Stockton at TCNJ ( Not a NJAC expert but the picture is so clouded in the NJAC right now maybe the results hear will help begin to sort things out)
-NJAC is always a crapshoot. Gotta go with RU-C with their home record/recent NJAC success in a must win situation; 3-2. Stockton has played some cupcakes, so I'll give TCNJ at home the benefit of the doubt 2-1.
York at Christopher Newport (Another tough game for both of these teams? They will be battle-tested come tourney time if they can get bids)
-York takes another beating and falls 2-0. I don't see York getting a bid unless they win the CAC. The south is getting very deep and it's already a pool where you don't want to be treading.
Montclair at Richard Stockton (Is Montclair in trouble? What would a loss do to them now?)
-Again, still tough to get a read on MSU.... they dominated the cupcakes... showed some heart vs Wheaton after being down 3-0... I am not a believe in Stockton and I just think MSU will be too much for them to handle. MSU wins 3-1.
York could get into the tourney if they make it to the CAC Final. Pending the results of this week, York could already have 3 losses (to 3 top 10 teams; Messiah, F&M, CNU); and 3 draws. Salisbury match now becomes a must win instead of, "a draw is okay"
Thanks lastguy. Counting on you for more color as we move forward from Mid-Atlantic and South Atlantic regions.
Just a brief reply to NCAC:
I gather your point about Neumann trying to win was not meant for me, since I only credited them for trying to win--and doing so. And, I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for the Falcons. Nevertheless, the officiating I see in regular season games is too often sub-par. Players are knocked down without a call being made in situations that aren't close to 50-50, obvious and repeated holding is not called, and dangerous tackles are called but not carded. It's the last of these that disturbs me most, since injuries sometimes result from such things, and officials who don't nip it in the bud are only asking for trouble later in the game. Surely, this isn't something that is noticed only by Falcon fans; it must be happening everywhere else as well. There's good reasons why people sometimes say, Rugby is a hooligans' game played by gentlemen, and soccer is a gentleman's game played by hooligans. IMO, it's high time to clean this up.
Yes, Falcon players under Brad McCarty are a lot bigger (on average) now then when Brandt started coaching. He seemed especially to look for players like himself--short, quick, highly skilled, and smart. The short part is no longer in the mix.
The polls on the site so far this season have been spot on.
In considering the latest one of what conference has the strongest trio, a gut reaction is that almost all of the conferences seem to be having a down year. Before the season I would have put my money on Kenyon-OWU-DePauw, but they haven't had the results thus far to back it up. The CAC, UAA and NESCAC would seem to be the leaders so far.
DO not sleep on the SUNYAC.
From a top 3 perspective rather than conference as a whole for CURRENT performance. I would say teams in each tier are interchangeable. (SOS)
TIER I
1. NESCAC –-- Amherst(2)/Middlebury(8)/Williams(5)
2. UAA --- Brandeis(21)/Emory(20)/Rochester(39)
3. CAC --- CNU(24)/Salisbury(90)/York(7)
4. Centennial --- F&M(13)/Swat(64)/Muhlenberg
-----------------------------------------------
TIER II
5. NCAC --- Kenyon(98)/OWU(18)/DePauw(108)
6. SUNYAC --- Oneonta St(54)/Plattsburgh St(86)/Brockport St(28)
7. IIAC --- Loras(76)/Luther(246)/Wartburg(149)
------------------------------------------------
8. NJAC --- RU-N(43)/MSU(56)/RU-C(10)
9. Liberty --- SLU(33)/RPI(46)/Hobart(16)
10. CCIW --- Wheaton(65)/North Park(188)/Carthage(80)
NJAC title or bust for the likes of MSU or Camden; will a regular season title + conf finalist be enough in the South that has UAA/CAC/NJAC/ODAC?
Salisbury or York could be in that same boat...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 23, 2014, 09:28:06 AM
Taking a shot at the top 25 here....
1. Messiah
2. Kenyon
3. SUNY Oneonta
4. Trinity
5. Brandeis
6. F&M
7. Emory
8. Hope
9. Luther
10. CNU
11. Loras
12. Amherst
13. Whitworth
14. Rochester
15. OWU
16. Wheaton Ill
17. RPI
18. Salisbury
19. Wheaton MA
20. Muhlenberg
21. North Park
22 St. Norbert
23. Colorado College
24. Rose-Hulman
25. Middlebury
RV - Swat, DePauw, GAC, UCSC, Birmingham-Southern
Better move Calvin in there as they beat Hope 4-1
Some interesting results so far today...
Kenyon spots Capital a PK and wins 5-1.
Calvin smokes Hope 4-1.
ECSU beats Gordon 1-0.
Coast Guard wins the New London derby 1-0 over Conn College.
Williams outshoots RPI 33 to 11 but only manages a 1-1 draw.
Wheaton impressively up 2-0 on Chicago on the road and quietly may be best team in the country not named Messiah.
DePauw getting healthy at home with 4 first half goals on Anderson.
And how good is Milwaukee Engineering? Every time I look they are winning.
North Park sneaks out of Oshkosh with a 3-2 win in 109th minute after being down 2-0.
Messiah over York(PA) 5-0 in a game that was closer than the final score. First half was pretty even, with York creating the better opportunities. Second half, Messiah finished their chances.
I watched 2nd half of Messiah. They looked fantastic. A 5-0 win sends a message to the rest of D3 if any was needed.
Outside of the Falcons, CNU and Wheaton (Ill) appear to be the hottest teams in the country. CNU wins tonight 5-1 away at Lynchburg.
Some other notables still struggling. Swat, at home, in scoreless draw with winless Neumann. OWU, at home, squeaks by Hanover in OT. Wesleyan loses at home 1-0 to WNEC.
Wheaton (MA) escaped 3-2 late against Roger Williams.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 22, 2014, 11:13:49 AM
Has any other player won 4 titles by way of red shirt other than Josh Wood?
I believe three players from Messiah history have played on four National Championship teams. The first to do it was Andy Rosamilia. Brett Faro (younger brother of the assistant coach) was 2nd and Josh Wood was third.
I saw the first have of the Messiah-York game as pretty even, with the Falcons probably owning the ball more often, but York was constantly in the passing lanes disrupting the attack. The best opportunity in the first half was a bullet header off a great cross, but somehow York's keeper got to it. The second half was all Messiah, most of the way. Indeed it was a message. The final 3 goals were all scored by freshmen, however. The final tally in the closing minute came on a great shot from outside the 18 on the dead run by Colby Thomas, one of the all-time leading scorers in PA high school history (http://thetimes-tribune.com/sports/all-region-colby-thomas-boys-player-of-the-year-1.1406926). He also set up the previous goal all by himself, basically. He's a fast, stocky guy with moves who has a nose for the ball. Should be fun to watch him once the seniors leave and he gets lots more PT--which he will. It was his first goal, after having been robbed a couple of times in earlier games. The keeper had no chance on this one; the only question was whether it would stay under the bar.
I noticed how young this year's York squad is. There might be only 3 seniors on the roster. They played harder than the score shows, but it was nice to see our shots start going in, after a stretch in which misses were too frequent.
Brandeis avoided tripping up at Babson just a few days after getting by Tufts. Impressive. Salisbury also still rolling, winning 3-1 against Roanoke. Emory struggled with Birm-Southern but ended up with 2-0 win. Luther, a little bit under the radar, remains undefeated with 5-4 win in a shootout vs St Olaf.
Wabash gets good win for them on the road at Rose-Hulman.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 24, 2014, 10:11:06 PM
I watched 2nd half of Messiah. They looked fantastic. A 5-0 win sends a message to the rest of D3 if any was needed.
Outside of the Falcons, CNU and Wheaton (Ill) appear to be the hottest teams in the country. CNU wins tonight 5-1 away at Lynchburg.
Some other notables still struggling. Swat, at home, in scoreless draw with winless Neumann. OWU, at home, squeaks by Hanover in OT. Wesleyan loses at home 1-0 to WNEC.
Wheaton (MA) escaped 3-2 late against Roger Williams.
Hasn't Wheaton illinois lost twice already?
Yes - Wheaton has lost twice (Hope & Whitworth) early in the year. But they have some very strong talent with speed and look to be playing more organized than I've seen them in the last few years. Their confidence is growing too. Big test will be against North Park later in the season.
In addition, both those teams are "Top 10" teams. They also beat 2 "Top 25" teams in Montclair and Calvin. Doubt any team in the country has played a tougher schedule in their first 10 games. Actually a bigger test lurking is this Friday vs. Wash U. away. North Park is still several weeks away and will be big..... come that time!
NCAC NE,
Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but your post about Brandeis having "avoided being tripped up by Babson" seems to imply that it was a close game. While Babson enjoyed the game for the first 10 mins or so (nearly scoring twice), it was all Brandeis after that, really. The Judges did especially well in making the field very big on attack by passing in triangles and then switching the point. They were composed on the ball--perhaps because Babo never went high pressure. The gap between Babson's midfielders and their lone striker posting up against two capable center backs served as an abyss when Babson won possession deep and thumped it forward over the chasm. Brandeis looked comfortable and confident. I didn't see the Tufts game, but I wonder if the Jumbos pressed the ball to shrink the field against the Judges and, if so, what effect that kind of pressure has on Brandeis.
Note: Babson's facility is a quality, soccer-specific field of dreams.
J4J, yes, you read it a bit incorrectly. I meant that the Babson game so soon after the big win over Tufts was a potential trap game against a pretty good opponent who could have used a big win over Brandeis in case they are a bubble team down the road. Babson did after all beat Williams on the road. So I found Brandeis taking of business impressive.
Wheaton (Ill) lost 2 tight 1-0 games early, and as noted against teams that have been ranked in the top 10. They have played a monster schedule, much like CNU. IMHO they are one of the few teams that can match (or come close to) Messiah talent-wise -- skilled, fast and athletic, and BIG. I don't see North Park being a problem for them. In considering who can challenge Messiah I'm thinking of teams that have some offensive explosiveness so that Messiah would have to do some defending of their own, and Wheaton (Ill), CNU, and Trinity (TX) appear to be such teams. Loras still may be one, and Kenyon has quite a bit of firepower but we need to see how the Lords fare against better competition. I know it's possible, but it's hard to imagine Messiah losing in a 1-0 or 0-0 contest.
One other note on Wheaton. This is their coach's final season, so I would assume the players want this badly (as they would anyway). We'll see if that added pressure is a positive or negative. Wheaton also is much like Messiah in terms of having a broadcasting "network" with at least 2 commentators, post-game coach interviews, etc. Bottom line is Wheaton is a legit contender.
This one flew under the radar a bit, but Dominican lost to Benedictine (IL) on Tuesday night for the 2nd year in a row. Last year Dominican had their 100+ conference win streak snapped.
Some highlights: http://youtu.be/pailqrzWLEk (http://youtu.be/pailqrzWLEk)
Has Dominican fallen or is Benedictine simply a team who has caught up?
I have seen Wheaton play a few times this year. They have great speed and strength, and get numbers forward quickly. Their holding CM maybe one of the best players I've seen in that role in a few years. This team could be poised for a deep NCAA run should their form continue, and they remain injury free.
Loras seems to be having a rough start when compared to the last few years. I've seen portions of a few games and they are playing a far more direct style, and have taken a hit with an injury or two. I think Luther, Wartburg, GAC and/or St. Olaf could end up spoiling the show for Loras if they can't start putting together complete games.
IMHO Dominican has been on the decline the last couple of seasons. With 4 L's already, and no signature Non-conference wins, they appear to be in a must-win conference situation if they hope to make the NCAA's.
NCAC NE: Understood.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on September 23, 2014, 06:40:45 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 23, 2014, 09:28:06 AM
Taking a shot at the top 25 here....
1. Messiah
2. Kenyon
3. SUNY Oneonta
4. Trinity
5. Brandeis
6. F&M
7. Emory
8. Hope
9. Luther
10. CNU
11. Loras
12. Amherst
13. Whitworth
14. Rochester
15. OWU
16. Wheaton Ill
17. RPI
18. Salisbury
19. Wheaton MA
20. Muhlenberg
21. North Park
22 St. Norbert
23. Colorado College
24. Rose-Hulman
25. Middlebury
RV - Swat, DePauw, GAC, UCSC, Birmingham-Southern
Better move Calvin in there as they beat Hope 4-1
I wonder how the Central Region will vote... I would put Wheaton 1 (8th in nation), Calvin 2 (14), Hope (19), Washington, North Park.
Tufts and Amherst play to 1-1 draw on a wonderful homecoming atmosphere. York and CNU also play to a 1-1 draw.
Messiah over Misericordia 3-0 with goals by Raul Serrano, Jack Thompson and Colby Thomas. On a related note, here's a recipe for Queso Fundido with Colby Jack cheese and Serrano chili peppers.
Beyond nachos
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/food/articles/2011/05/01/beyond_nachos/
In sympathy with the NESCAC we got some other interesting results around the nation.
Ohio Northern loses to Anderson, the same Anderson that got drilled 9-0 by DePauw.
Rochester loses in OT on the road at Lycoming, with the latter now an impressive 8-0-2.
Coast Guard in the wake of its impressive start suffers its first loss of the season to struggling Clark.
St. Johns beats GAC in OT.
Oneonta, maybe the hottest team not named Wheaton (Ill), Christopher Newport, or Messiah, cools off with a 2-2 draw with Cortland in a gmae that for some quirky playoffs reason goes to PKs where Oneonta apparently prevails 5-4. And speaking of CNU, they finally cool off with a draw against a York squad desperate for a result.
Swat's very recent struggles mount with a 3-2 OT loss to Hopkins.
Montclair tried to get healthy with a 4-0 throttling of Richard Stockton, and similarly Vassar bounces back with a good win over Skidmore.
UMass-Boston beats UMass-Dartmouth 7-0, which seems almost impossible.
McDaniel gets a win over Haverford.
Wartburg gets by Simpson 4-3.
Carnegie Mellon is trying hard to rebound and gets a pretty good win over Grove City.
The Little Giants of Wabash win 1-0 over Hiram and are now unbeaten at 7-0-2.
Babson bounces back with an important 3-2 win at MIT.
Kenyon prevails in one of the highest profile games of the day with a solid 1-0 victory over DePauw. Henceforth, this one should be dubbed the Shaka Smart-Brad Stevens bowl.
In the Centennial, many may be surprised to hear that Gettysburg is 7-1-1 with the only loss being to Messiah and today gets a 1-1 draw with fellow strong starter Muhlenberg (6-0-2). Dickinson, now at 6-2-1 pounded Ursinus 5-0.
North Park earns a 2-0 decision over Rose-Hulman.
In the OAC where Ohio Northern suddenly looks shaky keep an eye on hard-charging John Carroll which blew out Geneva 6-0.
It may be time we begin to acknowledge the accomplishments of Lycoming College. With their 2-1 win over Rochester yesterday they move to 8-0-2 on the season having surrendered only 2 goals thus far. Coach Nate Gibboney took over a program that posted a 5-21-4 conference record in the four years prior to his arrival. In his first year as head coach he led Lycoming to their first conference title and NCAA Tournament wins in school history. At the end of last season they advanced through a stretch of five games in a 2-week stretch where any one of the five games could have ended their season. They held Messiah to just two goals in a total of 200 minutes of soccer. Their defense was very stingy last year and appears to be even better this year. I don't know how long Gibboney will remain at Lycoming but I see nothing but good as long as he remains. If you are available, you may want to catch their game against Messiah on Wednesday, October 8th (video and live stats should be available).
The biggest surprise about the latest poll about yesterday's biggest surprise is Ohio Northern losing to Anderson so far coming in a distant last place. And the Tufts=Amherst draw is vying for the lead when I was wondering how that even made the list as a surprise. I personally voted for the Colby-Midd game.
wchandy22, thanks for the background color on Lycoming. I noticed how stingy they have been on defense reading the recaps of the Rochester game.
Games of the Week
Tuesday
Center Court
Wheaton (MA) at Brandeis -- Biggest non-NESCAC game in New England thus far and maybe for entire regular season. Both teams are skilled and experienced. Wheaton may be a bit more athletic overall while Brandeis may have a slight edge in cohesion and overall confidence. Could see game going either way so perhaps a draw is likely.
Grandstand Court
Swarthmore at Muhlenberg -- Huge week for the Mules with F&M looming Friday. Swat already has lost a couple of Centennial games so a loss here would really put them in a hole.
Wednesday
Center Court
Wartburg at Luther -- A heavyweight clash in the IIAC and North Region. Luther is one of the few unbeaten, untied teams left nationally, and Wartburg could use a signature win to increase odds of being on the right side of the bubble down the road.
Grandstand Court
Middlebury at Williams -- With both losing Saturday, and with Williams in danger of needing to win conference tournament for a bid, the stakes here have magnified. Williams is at home and one wonders if Midd will have recovered from the Waterville spanking. These are also two teams that may play again later when a bid really is on the line.
Outside Courts of Interest
Western New England at Amherst -- Trap game for Amherst? Can the Golden Bears knock off another NESCAC?
Salisbury at Catholic -- Trap game for Salisbury? I almost scrapped this one when I saw Catholic is 4-5 but I'll trust my instinct.
Gettysburg @ Hopkins -- A win here will keep one of these teams among the leaders in the Centennial. Will be interesting to see if the Bullets can underscore themselves as a real threat.
Rutgers-Camden at Rowan -- A good down and dirty NJAC clash in the heart of the season that warms the heart of Jersey fans.
North Central at Milwaukee School of Engineering -- Adding this one in hopes that another MSOE reference will get someone to tell us something about them.
Friday
Center Court
Muhlenberg at F&M -- A blockbuster Centennial tilt, especially if Muhlenberg finds a way through against Swat earlier in the week. Meanwhile F&M is fully intent on solidifying their standing as a top 5 team on the national stage and a legitimate threat to Messiah in the national title race. BTW, why aren't F&M and Messiah playing in the regular season, especially given the proximity and familial ties between the two schools?
Grandstand Court
Oneonta at Brockport -- a SUNYAC showdown. Oneonta has been getting all of the press while some of us are still wondering exactly where Brockport is, and so a great opportunity for Brockport to rattle the cages of national voters. Umm, just saw that Brockport already has 4 draws, so a win here would be big.
Outside Courts of Interest
Elmhurst at Wheaton (Ill) -- A trap game for Wheaton? I doubt, as I expect the Thunder to keep humming along.
SLU at Union -- A trap game for SLU? I know I'm wearing out the trap game theme, but I think this is one.
Saturday
Center Court
Tufts at Middlebury -- Is one of the teams going to emerge as a threat to the Amherst/Williams recent stranglehold on the NESCAC? For perhaps slightly different psychological reasons both of these teams need a win and not a draw, and definitely not a loss.
Grandstand Court
Ohio Northern at John Carroll -- Playing for home field in the OAC tourney? ONU is at serious risk of missing out on a NCAA bid although their tournament could save them. John Carroll is pushing to get noticed. Rumor has it that Don Shula will be talking to the squad this week.
Outside Courts of Interest
Babson at Wheaton (MA) -- Important NEWMAC contest. Will the NEWMAC get more bids than the NESCAC???
SLU at RPI -- Two good teams trying to avoid too many setbacks.
Rochester at NYU -- A couple of Ls in the loss column put some pressure on UR to win this one.
Williams at Skidmore -- A more important than normal non-conference affair for two teams who can play themselves on or off the right side of the bubble.
Carnegie Mellon at Chicago -- Is the loser toast?
Alvernia at Lycoming -- Trap game for Lycoming. For real. When was the last time someone said Lycoming had a trap game?
GAC at St Olaf -- The Gusties want to avoid going down two in the conference loss column to the Oles.
Roanoke at Virginia Wesleyan -- Good old-fashioned ODAC donnybrook with the Marlins trying to play themselves back into contention.
Dickinson at Hopkins -- Will the Centennial picture just be muddier after all these teams have been beating up on one another?
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Tuesday
Center Court
Wheaton (MA) at Brandeis -- Biggest non-NESCAC game in New England thus far and maybe for entire regular season. Both teams are skilled and experienced. Wheaton may be a bit more athletic overall while Brandeis may have a slight edge in cohesion and overall confidence. Could see game going either way so perhaps a draw is likely.
Wheaton are a very good side. It will be interesting to see how they approach this game tactically. Being at home I'm sure Brandeis will try to take the initiative but I doubt Cushing will bring his guys up there with the intention of parking the bus. Their win at Roger Williams last week was impressive—they played like the home team.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Tufts at Middlebury -- Is one of the teams going to emerge as a threat to the Amherst/Williams recent stranglehold on the NESCAC? For perhaps slightly different psychological reasons both of these teams need a win and not a draw, and definitely not a loss.
Middlebury have impressed me but I think Tufts is a bit more cohesive. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but, objectively speaking, if Tufts was better in the final third, they could be 8-0 instead of 5-1-2. That said, home field advantage could prove decisive for Midd. Excited for this one.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
North Central at Milwaukee School of Engineering -- Adding this one in hopes that another MSOE reference will get someone to tell us something about them.
I've seen MSOE play a couple times. They can be very dangerous. From what I've seen, they're a much better team on turf than on grass. There is a great deal of talent with their top players (L. Andryk, B. Andryk, Skow) who can pop up at any time for goals. Something to watch for with the Raiders is that they are up there with the best on set pieces. Logan Andryk has 6 goals & 14 assists this season with a large portion of the assists coming corners or free kicks. He whips in a ball that is very tough to deal with. They'll be up there with the best in the NACC which has weakened with Dominican's dropoff. But Benedictine and MSOE have improved enough to give a good game to a number of the region's better teams.
Quote from: blooter442 on September 29, 2014, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Tufts at Middlebury -- Is one of the teams going to emerge as a threat to the Amherst/Williams recent stranglehold on the NESCAC? For perhaps slightly different psychological reasons both of these teams need a win and not a draw, and definitely not a loss.
Middlebury have impressed me but I think Tufts is a bit more cohesive. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but, objectively speaking, if Tufts was better in the final third, they could be 8-0 instead of 5-1-2. That said, home field advantage could prove decisive for Midd. Excited for this one.
Might be tough for Tufts being on the road at Middlebury: long trip up and without their giant center back (red card). Tufts will be motivated by the chance to stay on top for home-field advantage come time for the conference tournament. Midd will be pushing to remain in the thick of the race.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Tuesday
Center Court
Wheaton (MA) at Brandeis -- Biggest non-NESCAC game in New England thus far and maybe for entire regular season. Both teams are skilled and experienced. Wheaton may be a bit more athletic overall while Brandeis may have a slight edge in cohesion and overall confidence. Could see game going either way so perhaps a draw is likely.
Grandstand Court
Swarthmore at Muhlenberg -- Huge week for the Mules with F&M looming Friday. Swat already has lost a couple of Centennial games so a loss here would really put them in a hole.
NCAC New England, I believe you have to include Messiah and E-Town at some court if only for the fact that this is the Marshmallow Match. The environment at this game is like no other. Don't believe me, take a look at last year's game.
2013 Marshmallow Match -- Messiah at E-Town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo9QgaVdYNc
wchandy22, that is very cute, and I am sure there is a good deal of tradition there.
I like the outcome of the games I feature to be at least a little bit in doubt. Are you suggesting this is a trap game for Messiah, AT HOME? Not to mention that Messiah already gets plenty of coverage here on the site.
You had me at Lycoming......... but I can't let myself get nostalgic about the E'town teams of yesteryear. I will confess that I do really love the Blue Jays' uniforms.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AMWestern New England at Amherst -- Trap game for Amherst? Can the Golden Bears knock off another NESCAC?
I didn't see WNEU's win against Wesleyan, but it couldn't have been the same team that was taken apart at home by Gordon this past weekend (Gordon's skilled attack was very impressive in its 3-0 road win). I think it will be 3-0 Amherst.
Wow. More negative karma after spending a bit of time trying to put something fun together that might be of some interest? I don't get the karma thing on this site (which will probably earn me some more negative karma), but wouldn't it be more revealing (and interesting) for the reader to actually post the objection in words? The way it is one has no idea what it is that is being responded to negatively.
I've never understood the karma thing either.
Onto more interesting topics, my upset prediction of Montclair over Messiah didn't turn out so well. In looking at Messiah's schedule, I'm not sure I see any possible upsets left. Any thoughts? Looks like deep into NCAAs before a serious challenger might emerge.
Awesome. My previous post just earned me another negative karma. Keep it coming ...
There you go Corazon. Got you on the karma comeback trail!
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 07:27:56 PM
Wow. More negative karma after spending a bit of time trying to put something fun together that might be of some interest? I don't get the karma thing on this site (which will probably earn me some more negative karma), but wouldn't it be more revealing (and interesting) for the reader to actually post the objection in words? The way it is one has no idea what it is that is being responded to negatively.
I won't mess with the karma button, but your post was excellent and entertaining.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 09:29:33 PM
There you go Corazon. Got you on the karma comeback trail!
Ha ha. Thanks! I'd reciprocate, except I have no idea where the karma button is.
Quote from: Corazon on September 29, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 09:29:33 PM
There you go Corazon. Got you on the karma comeback trail!
Ha ha. Thanks! I'd reciprocate, except I have no idea where the karma button is.
Corazon,
You get to give +, - karma points once you have around 50 posts, then you will see "applaud" and "smite" icons under a posters karma scores. Click on applaud and you give a + karma point, click on the smite and you give the recipient - karma point. Here is a +k for your posts!!
Best thing to do with Karma is ignore it. Some people will ding you for your screen name, others for the team you support, sometimes for the way a game goes. You hope it's mostly because what you write, and it usually is, but you never know. I tend to tell people when I give it, usually for something that was very insightful or because it made me laugh out loud, or because they corrected something I wrote incorrectly. I almost never take it away unless someone really gets on my nerves. Other times people get into what seems like Karma wars, although I haven't heard of a good one of those in a while.
Overall, it doesn't really mean anything. Don't sweat it. I have found the more you talk about it the more you are likely to get dinged just for bringing it up.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 29, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Games of the Week
Tuesday
Center Court
Wheaton (MA) at Brandeis -- Biggest non-NESCAC game in New England thus far and maybe for entire regular season. Both teams are skilled and experienced. Wheaton may be a bit more athletic overall while Brandeis may have a slight edge in cohesion and overall confidence. Could see game going either way so perhaps a draw is likely.
Babson at Wheaton (MA) -- Important NEWMAC contest. Will the NEWMAC get more bids than the NESCAC???
Wheaton has more potential offensive firepower, but Brandeis is the more complete team. Brandeis takes this one 2-1.
Also, based on results so far the NEWMAC should get more bids than the NESCAC. NESCAC teams are 0-2-2 against the NEWMAC to date with all of the games involving NESCAC teams currently in the top half of their conference standings.
I think Brandeis wins this one 2-0; Swat over Mules; Messiah over E-town 4-0; Kings will beat overhyped Lycoming in a revenge re-match of last year's opening NCAA round game. Now the decision is what game to watch... Messiah at home in the Marshmallow Cup atmosphere or Wheaton at Brandeis?
Bassett and Oz separated at birth? Both graduated in '01...
http://www.kingscollegeathletics.com/coaches.aspx?rc=607&path=msoc
http://scarletraptors.com/coaches.aspx?rc=320&path=msoc
Also, congrats to McGinlay for his 400th win!
Quote from: Corazon on September 29, 2014, 09:14:11 PM
I've never understood the karma thing either.
Onto more interesting topics, my upset prediction of Montclair over Messiah didn't turn out so well. In looking at Messiah's schedule, I'm not sure I see any possible upsets left. Any thoughts? Looks like deep into NCAAs before a serious challenger might emerge.
I would have agreed that the tough part of Messiah's schedule is past now -at least until tournaments, but lets give Lycoming their due and put Messiah on upset watch for that game in a couple of weeks. They know how to defend Messiah and have confidence in their ability to do so. Does anyone know if they have much scoring firepower?
Brandeis beats Wheaton 1-0. Judges in control in first half but couldn't create any threatening opportunities. Second half, they came out stronger and scored through a great finish from Soboff, keeper no chance. After that Wheaton ramped up the pressure and despite not creating a lot put Brandeis under pressure. Even though I'm a Brandeis fan Wheaton should've gotten a PK for a blatant foul in the box. One goal victory was probably a fair result but Wheaton played very well and are definitely for real. Luke Finkelstein is very underrated IMO, excellent player. Any team would love to have him.
blooter, did you see the game in person? I find that watching online doesn't give any feel for how the game is actually played. Looks much slower and sloppier when watching online and then in person seems like a completely different game, like high speed with little time of the ball and much more impressive skill than otherwise apparent.
In terms of this game, Brandeis seemed a little more physical which surprised me having seen Wheaton previously. I see Brandeis did in fact lead in fouls 22 to 13. Also seemed like Brandeis believed they were the team that was supposed to win, perhaps just giving them a slight edge.
Muhlenberg beat Swat, creating showdown with F&M, who btw were in trouble with Ursinus. Messiah game halted by weather.
Lycoming draws with King's 1-1.
Elizabethtown and Messiah - game cancelled in 58th minute due to weather with Messiah leading 1-0. Apparently game will be restarted from scratch on Wednesday
Lycoming and Kings ends in a 1-1 draw after 2 OTs. There were a total of 11 yellow cards and a straight red. Lycoming was playing a man down and later two men down. Sounds like things got a bit on edge.
E-Town and Messiah will do it all over again tomorrow at 4:00. Messiah had a 1-0 lead in the 2nd half but it was decided to start from scratch. There were plenty of marshmallows on the field and it is pouring heavily at the moment. So things might be a stick mess at the moment.
Quote from: NCAC New England on September 30, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
blooter, did you see the game in person? I find that watching online doesn't give any feel for how the game is actually played. Looks much slower and sloppier when watching online and then in person seems like a completely different game, like high speed with little time of the ball and much more impressive skill than otherwise apparent.
In terms of this game, Brandeis seemed a little more physical which surprised me having seen Wheaton previously. I see Brandeis did in fact lead in fouls 22 to 13. Also seemed like Brandeis believed they were the team that was supposed to win, perhaps just giving them a slight edge.
I was indeed there. It was definitely a fast-paced, physical game with lots of great pressure and speed on display from both sides. Got very chippy at the end as the hosts tried to close the game out while Wheaton put them under immense pressure. I'd agree with you that Brandeis was the more physical of the two teams, which, having watched the Judges for three years be mostly a skill-based team, was a surprise to me as well. Soboff (M/F), J. Ocel (M), Lanahan (CB) and R. Lynch (LB) have definitely learned to impose themselves physically, giving them a different approach. Weather was a slight mist, which, combined with the speed of the turf, probably suited Brandeis.
No go for Messiah and E-Town. The game was to have been replayed today at 4:00 but I the powers that be have decided that this game will not be made up. The game is considered a "No Contest" as it fell short of the required 70 minutes. But for a brief moment last night, marshmallows were in the air. The Messiah women host E-Town at 7:00 tonight and I believe some discussion was made about not being able to clean up the "mess" between games. You can see some of the fluffy white confectioneries in flight from last night in the video at the following link.
http://gomessiah.com/news/2014/9/30/MSOC_0930141657.aspx
Quote from: wchandy22 on October 01, 2014, 03:43:49 PM
No go for Messiah and E-Town. The game was to have been replayed today at 4:00 but I the powers that be have decided that this game will not be made up. The game is considered a "No Contest" as it fell short of the required 70 minutes. But for a brief moment last night, marshmallows were in the air. The Messiah women host E-Town at 7:00 tonight and I believe some discussion was made about not being able to clean up the "mess" between games. You can see some of the fluffy white confectioneries in flight from last night in the video at the following link.
http://gomessiah.com/news/2014/9/30/MSOC_0930141657.aspx
Can you tell me why it is called the Marshmallow Bowl? I don't usually equate marshmallows with Messiah and E'town in soccer, so there must be a reason behind it. I get that the kids throw marshmallows, but why?
I don't know the definite reason but the game used to always be around Halloween time.
Quote from: wchandy22 on October 01, 2014, 03:43:49 PM
No go for Messiah and E-Town. The game was to have been replayed today at 4:00 but I the powers that be have decided that this game will not be made up. The game is considered a "No Contest" as it fell short of the required 70 minutes. But for a brief moment last night, marshmallows were in the air. The Messiah women host E-Town at 7:00 tonight and I believe some discussion was made about not being able to clean up the "mess" between games. You can see some of the fluffy white confectioneries in flight from last night in the video at the following link.
http://gomessiah.com/news/2014/9/30/MSOC_0930141657.aspx
Wchandy22--- The reason had nothing to do with the "mess". More had to do with paying for officials against and more importantly getting officials that could commit to a 4pm game last minute. I believe they tried to see if they could get all three or 4 officials for the Women's game tonight do the men's game at three. Like you know, refeereeing is a second job for many of them.
Some tense, intriguing action thus far nationally.
Christopher Newport ties game with Greensboro in 89th minute via their star goal scorer and then devastates the Pride 5 minutes into the 1st OT with the winner.
OWU loses another game, this time to Capital on goal conceded in 89th minute.
I get at least half-credit on Salisbury vs Catholic as that one ends 0-0. A flurry of yellow cards in OT and apparently a 110th minute straight red on a Salisbury player.
Williams gives up PK early to Midd but grinds out a critical 2-1 win in OT.
Eastern smacked York 4-1 and were up 4-0.
Getting my snacks and drinks ready for Wartburg-Luther.
Quote from: jknezek on October 01, 2014, 03:51:48 PM
Can you tell me why it is called the Marshmallow Bowl? I don't usually equate marshmallows with Messiah and E'town in soccer, so there must be a reason behind it. I get that the kids throw marshmallows, but why?
I have heard a few (slight) variations of the story but the one most often told goes something like this . . .
E-Town was a perennial national power throughout the 80s and they culminated the decade by winning the NCAA Division III national championship in 1989. Sometime in the late 80s (maybe 1987) a scouting report was found which labeled the Falcons as being "soft." When Messiah beat E-Town the following year fans started throwing marshmallows at E-Town players and fans while chanting, "Who's soft now?" One thing led to another and before you know it, everyone is throwing marshmallows at everyone else . . . especially the poor assistant referees.
Wartburg draws first blood. The Luther video gives the best perspective I have seen of what it is like on the field. From a close angle down in a corner and pretty low to the ground. Interesting. Anyway, check it out. Gives good sense of talent and skills levels.
Amherst was down 1-0 to WNE but the dam has broken as Amherst just kept pelting and pelting with WNE not able to get the ball in the other half at all.
Last I checked both evening NJAC games were 0-0 in the 81st minutes now 86 and 88).
Wow! Rowan scores in 90th minute against Rutgers-C.
And Hopkins brought Gettysburg down to earth with 3-0 win.
Great game going at Decorah, Iowa. Luther leveled at 1-1 and then Wartburg scored just before the half ended, so 2-1 at the half. These teams look really good. Very offensive but still possession-oriented.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 01, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
Wartburg draws first blood. The Luther video gives the best perspective I have seen of what it is like on the field. From a close angle down in a corner and pretty low to the ground. Interesting. Anyway, check it out. Gives good sense of talent and skills levels.
Amherst was down 1-0 to WNE but the dam has broken as Amherst just kept pelting and pelting with WNE not able to get the ball in the other half at all.
Last I checked both evening NJAC games were 0-0 in the 81st minutes now 86 and 88).
The angle stinks for action at the other side of the field.
Quote from: wchandy22 on October 01, 2014, 08:38:08 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 01, 2014, 03:51:48 PM
Can you tell me why it is called the Marshmallow Bowl? I don't usually equate marshmallows with Messiah and E'town in soccer, so there must be a reason behind it. I get that the kids throw marshmallows, but why?
I have heard a few (slight) variations of the story but the one most often told goes something like this . . .
E-Town was a perennial national power throughout the 80s and they culminated the decade by winning the NCAA Division III national championship in 1989. Sometime in the late 80s (maybe 1987) a scouting report was found which labeled the Falcons as being "soft." When Messiah beat E-Town the following year fans started throwing marshmallows at E-Town players and fans while chanting, "Who's soft now?" One thing led to another and before you know it, everyone is throwing marshmallows at everyone else . . . especially the poor assistant referees.
Thanks. +k
Not that it matters but that is the history of the Marshmallow Bowl as I have heard it as well.
Has anyone else noticed that the NCAC has been playing very poorly this year? OWU and Depauw, both thought to be excellent teams preseason, have been very subpar. Today, for instance, saw Hiram, Oberlin and OWU all lose. OWU specifically lost to Capital, who lost to Kenyon 5-1. Does anyone have any input on this?
It certainly has been a slow start for teams from the NCAC. One thing I'd caution you to do is compare scores to try and gauge teams. DePauw but more so OWU will always get every opponents best game given their long tradition of history. Teams play differently against OWU/Wheaton/Messiah then they do mediocre teams or even relatively new but good programs.
I doubt when OWU and Kenyon play it will be a 5-0 affair in favor of Kenyon (based on comparative scores). I think it will be a great game and without looking at stats I doubt anyone on this Kenyon team has ever beaten OWU so I'm sure that just adds to their fire. Kenyon is CERTAINLY the favorite though and need to be feeling good about this game. Role reversal from previous meetings?
One thing I've always given Kenyon credit for is winning the games they are suppose to win. A few slip ups here and there but collectively, they usually trounce the teams they are suppose to and that's what good teams do. I'm looking forward to that matchup in a few weeks.
As for DePauw, I have to say I'm shocked by their season. I know they have talent still which makes them dangerous come NCAC post season but I did not see this season coming for them. Especially with Morrison still there and their other forward Gonzales is a good player. Hiram....I don't know if anyone had expectations coming into the season for them so that's sort of a moot point but Oberlin is struggling a bit as well after their trip to the NCAA's last year. Wesleyan lost a pretty talented senior class that started 7 or so players so maybe their struggles were more transparent than others but they still have a good team and shouldn't be dropping games to Capital, Otterbein, and taking Hanover to OT.
Does anyone know where i can find a good strength of schedule rating?
Good post Midwest Soccer.
When we see a team like OWU struggle by their standards (and don't forget that they split with Calvin and Hope and throttled an Ohio Northern team also underperforming), I am more impressed by how consistently they have performed year in and year out. It is one thing for a school to have a great season here and there, but to do it year after year is not easy. OWU hasn't lost a single NCAC regular season game in a number of years. They did lose a big senior group and predictions of them being the top NCAC team again this year were based on tradition more than reality. That said, OWU has too much talent and is too well coached not to be there in the end. They may actually benefit from lowered expectations and being in a slight underdog role versus Kenyon certainly will be very different for them.
It is true that the strong Kenyon senior group has never beaten OWU. They've tied a couple of times and had some very good competitive games, and especially last year I would think OWU could feel Kenyon closing the gap. I would expect OWU and Kenyon to play at least twice this season and maybe three times, and I also would expect all of their games to be very tense, tight affairs with 1 (or at most 2) goal margins and/or draws. The difference this year is that Kenyon can match OWU on experience and talent. Should be very good games in a match-up where there is no love lost. A big question mark for Kenyon will be how they handle being the hunted instead of the hunter. I also would expect Kenyon to remain very good for at least several years running as the soph and frosh classes are loaded with talent, and as recruiting appears to have ramped up with the addition of an assistant very focused on recruiting. Soph phenom Amolo has got to be one of the top 5-10 D3 players in the country.
DePauw is a mystery and I would not count them out. They are very capable of winning the NCAC tournament, as they have done twice in the past 4 years. The talent is there and I expected them to start strong and fast after last year's disappointment at missing out on the NCAA tourney (despite an outstanding record overall). If the Tigers do get it together they are a team no one will want to play come tourney time.
Oberlin has been disappointing and seems to be in a sort of sophomore slump. No doubt they overachieved last year, with a combination of improved talent, good coaching, and some good breaks. I don't think they have the firepower for a major turnaround this season, but we'll see, and they certainly have enough talent to play some kind of spoiler role.
Not sure what is happening with Denison, a traditional top 4 finisher in the NCAC. They have been up and down over the past 2-3 years and seems their overall talent level is down a bit, but they are always dangerous in big rivalry games with Kenyon, OWU, etc.
The usual bottom half of the NCAC actually looks stronger, with the exception of Wooster. Wabash is undefeated and beginning to attract some notice. They have had a fairly soft schedule so far, so we'll see what happens with them. Allegheny, Hiram, and Wittenberg seem to have added some talent as well.
Agreed on all fronts NCAC...
The move to the NCAC was great for DePauw. I'll never forget 2010 for the Tigers. They were something like 14-2-3 with their only losses being to Trinity (TX) 1-0 and 1-0 to OWU in OT who finished the last NSCAA national ranking of the regular season #1 and #2 and DePauw DID NOT make the tournament. Can you imagine only losing 2 games to the 1 and 2 ranked teams in the country and not getting in? That being said, their old conference killed them because they didn't have many in-region games and the ones they did schedule excluding OWU were all cup cakes. Still a crazy stat none the less.
Will be interesting to see how the NCAC shakes out but right now I'm predicting the winner of the Kenyon OWU game to win the conference, however I won't be surprised to see OWU tripped up with some ties to other teams.
My top 3 will be Kenyon, OWU, DePauw, and the last playoff spot will go to Wabash, Denison, Hiram, or Allegheny. Maybe I give Hiram the nod out of that group. I don't want to read too much into Wabash's undefeated start as I remember 2 years ago Allegheny was undefeated and ranked in the top 15 I believe and then lost 4 straight games in conference and failed to make the NCAC tournament.
Midwest, don't forget that the DePauw vs OWU game comes first, at OWU, and that should be a classic as neither team can afford to drop another game.
chelseafan, I think you are on the money on your NCAC observation, but why focused on just the NCAC? A good number of conferences, and certainly a good number of preseason highly ranked teams, have struggled. Outside of Brandeis and Emory, the other UAA big names have dropped games. NESCAC teams have some losses against non-conferences foes and some closer than expected wins. Rutgers-Camden, Stevens and York all have lost multiple games. Which conferences would you say have outperformed thus far?
Quote from: Durantula on October 02, 2014, 10:02:48 AM
Does anyone know where i can find a good strength of schedule rating?
The only source of which I am aware that provides Strength of Schedule data is the NCAA Regional Rankings (which contains this and other related data). It is these rankings and supporting data that is used by the selection committee for the at-large bids. In the past, these rankings have been released on the last three Wednesdays of the season. So this year, I would expect them to be released on October 22nd, October 29th and November 5th. The supporting data sheets (I believe there is one for each of the eight regions) lists all schools, their record, winning percentage, opponents' winning percentage (OWP), opponents' opponents' winning percentage (OOWP), strength of schedule (SOS) and record against ranked teams. If I find any other source within the next three weeks, I will let you know.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 02, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
Which conferences would you say have outperformed thus far?
After Wartburg beat Luther last night my prediction is that the new regional rankings will have the Top three being Loras Luther Wartburg which means the top 3 are all from the IIAC. I suppose you could say the IIAC is doing well or maybe the rest of the region is just down, but I still think they may have the combined three strongest teams from any conference.
Durantula, agreed. I don't know a ton about these programs but am very interested in them and know all 3 are very good and capable of deep runs. They all appear to take their programs very seriously, and all 3 have large reserves squads. Also noticed that Luther has a bunch of players from Shattuck St. Marys and the Carribean, as well as multiple D1 transfers.
Saint of Old, any update on SLU? They were one of my preseason favorites and wondering if you think they will be an elite 8/final 4 contender by tournament time.
It will not be easy.
The young boyz are doing well stepping up to the plate and taking the opportunity, but when you lose your best striker, defender and goalie for a majority of the year then depth gets hit even when underclassmen step up.
This year was indeed supposed to be good, but no one could have predicted this.
In fairness though, many good teams have been hit hard by injuries this year.
Just seems the players across the nation are going down a whole lot more than they did 15-20 years ago.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 02, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Just seems the players across the nation are going down a whole lot more than they did 15-20 years ago.
I always attributed this to just simply going too hard for too long.. Kids starting competitive soccer from the time they hit age 7, they test their bodies from the get-go. Combine that with playing year round, boom. Their bodies are always pushed and never given time to rest.
I attribute it to kids being "softer"
Quote from: LaPaz on October 02, 2014, 10:37:50 PM
I attribute it to kids being "softer"
I think that kids are actually stronger and faster than 15 years ago, but the extra strain from that speed and torque is taking it's toll. Look at all sports across the board, kids are bigger, stronger, and faster, but are getting injured at a much higher rate. Bodies are pushed more to perform better.
I was playing DIII 20 years ago and prided myself on being the hardest, toughest, player on the pitch, but the speed of today's game is just a notch above and at some point somethings got to give. More often than not it's the tiny little bastard in your knee that is so crucial to stability (ACL). I think maybe kids are labeled softer because there is so much more diving going on now versus 20 yrs ago. Some will argue that field turf is to blame, but I tend to lean more toward the above mentioned. reasons
Quote from: wchandy22 on October 02, 2014, 07:31:19 PM
Quote from: Durantula on October 02, 2014, 10:02:48 AM
Does anyone know where i can find a good strength of schedule rating?
The only source of which I am aware that provides Strength of Schedule data is the NCAA Regional Rankings (which contains this and other related data). It is these rankings and supporting data that is used by the selection committee for the at-large bids. In the past, these rankings have been released on the last three Wednesdays of the season. So this year, I would expect them to be released on October 22nd, October 29th and November 5th. The supporting data sheets (I believe there is one for each of the eight regions) lists all schools, their record, winning percentage, opponents' winning percentage (OWP), opponents' opponents' winning percentage (OOWP), strength of schedule (SOS) and record against ranked teams. If I find any other source within the next three weeks, I will let you know.
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2014&sub=11620
LORAS SOS 76
LUTHER SOS 203
WARTBURG SOS 111
Quote from: Cheesehead Henry on October 02, 2014, 09:26:20 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 02, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Just seems the players across the nation are going down a whole lot more than they did 15-20 years ago.
I always attributed this to just simply going too hard for too long.. Kids starting competitive soccer from the time they hit age 7, they test their bodies from the get-go. Combine that with playing year round, boom. Their bodies are always pushed and never given time to rest.
Playing year round and only playing one sport year round. Same stress on the same failure points. If kids didn't specialize so much, i.e. different sports in different seasons like it used to be, you wouldn't constantly be acting on the same stress points. We know repetitive motion injuries exist, the logical extension of those injuries is an increase in specialization equals more injuries over time. A kid that played soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter and baseball in the spring was probably less susceptible to injuries common in each sport than the kid that plays three seasons of one sport. Let alone we've now basically gone to four season, single sport specialization at the mid-tier and above youth levels.
You also can add in that we have a much lower "stopping point" for injuries right now. Things that 20 years ago you used Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation and Time to cure now end up with much fancier methods. And what parent wants their child coming back from a small injury, after expensive PT or other therapies, to step back on the field right away? So even smaller injuries are bigger deals.
Muhlenberg and F&M deadlocked at 0-0 and headed to OT.
SLU and Union also 0-0 and headed to OT.
Oneonta gets a PK call late (that seemed shaky but hard to tell) to cause heartbreak at Brockport, yielding 3-2 Oneonta win.
SLU edges Union 1-0 away in OT
RPI beats Clarkson 3-0
Sets up a good showdown tomorrow between St. Lawrence and RPI.
Winner is basically in the conference tourney.
Wheaton(IL) over Elmhurst 1-0 tonight in gusty/rainy conditions
Im telling you 15-20 years ago kids would play thru some of these injuries. I totally agree about bigger, stronger, faster but it is also true that you had more kids playing thru these little knack injuries and playing with some or moderate pain. Today they are to cautious and they tend to baby the players more.
http://wartburgcircuit.org/wartburg-luther-soccer-teams-stand-united-against-hate/
I saw this video floating around the IIAC homepage and thought it was a really neat video. Has anybody else heard of this problem happening in other parts of the nation? Sad to hear that people still use racism on the field during this wonderful game.
Wheaton-Babson about to kick off in a few minutes. Anyone else have predictions? Wheaton are for real and I don't see them getting beaten at home, especially with that 5-1 last year in the recent past. Babson has definitely put forth some impressive results so far, especially the win at Williams, but seem very ordinary at times. 2-1 to Wheaton.
NYU pulls 2-0 upset in UAA tilt with Rochester.
No video for Tufts-Midd???
Nice job by Wheaton after spotting Babson a goal. Win 3-1.
Skidmore trying to hang on vs Williams.
Brandeis gets a fortunate PK call at the edge of the box with under 2 minutes in 2nd OT to get by a devastated Case Western squad.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 05, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
Brandeis gets a fortunate PK call at the edge of the box with under 2 minutes in 2nd OT to get by a devastated Case Western squad.
I agree that it was a very fortunate call. There was contact but he "bought" the foul. Case did well to stifle Brandeis' creativity. Relatively unimaginative in the final third but they are better than their record suggests.
Yep, at that point after 108 minutes I think the call was harsh. Ref could have called the foul and placed ball just outside the box. The kid who the foul was called on looked inconsolable. Tough, tough way to lose when that close to a draw against a powerhouse team.
Upset brewing in the Pacific Northwest, as Puget Sound leads Whitworth 2-0 in the 2nd half.
In other late action, Christopher Newport leads Randolph 1-0 at the half. Great video and nice soccer facility at CNU.
#9/#7 Whitworth no longer unbeaten as the Pirates lose at home to the PSU Loggers 2-0.
Exciting back and forth action in Newport News as Randolph leveled but CNU has scored again. 2-1 midway through the 2nd half. Impressed with both teams actually, and I am sticking to my prediction of a good NCAA run for CNU.
This week looks light in terms of blockbuster games, but here is my take on the best of the bunch.
The Main Event(s)
Wednesday
Lycoming at Messiah -- Likely to be a letdown as Messiah looks like an 8 cylinder machine going against 4 cylinder economy vehicles, but there is hype around Lycoming's PK victory last year and strong showing and strong D so far this year. According to the Messiah announcing crew (and yes, I have listened to them again and actually enjoyed them), star player Thompson is having an MRI in the next day or two, but even without Thompson the Falcons just throw more players on the pitch who broke their state's high school scoring records.
Saturday
Brandeis at Rochester -- If Brandeis gets through this week unscathed (MIT away Tuesday and then Rochester away) I believe they will have to be considered a serious or even likely final four candidate (and one can make a strong case already). The Rochester match is especially compelling because the Yellow Jackets are flirting with the danger zone in terms of an expected NCAA bid, and so Brandeis should expect to get Rochester's A game.
DePauw at OWU -- Probably the biggest game of the season in the NCAC. OWU at Kenyon in a couple of weeks will garner a lot of hype, but this one actually is bigger because both DePauw and OWU so badly need to avoid further losses. Both are capable of earning a bid through the conference tournament but I doubt either wants to rely on those odds.
The Undercard
Monday/Tonight
Haverford at Rutgers-Camden -- A chance for both teams to get a quality out of conference win.
Tuesday
Conn College at ECSU -- A must win for Conn who may be reeling after an overtime shock loss in Lewiston, ME.
Wednesday
Stevens at Swarthmore -- The Ducks are trying to gradually work their way back to where we thought they would be, and Swat meanwhile has gone off the rails and in real danger of dropping four in a row (or would it be five now?).
St Olaf at Wartburg -- Two quality teams that have been surging. St Olaf could make a statement with a win, but I suspect Wartburg is too dialed in at the moment to drop this one.
Saturday
Wash U at Carnegie Mellon -- The margin of error for both of these squads is nearing zero. I'm guessing Wash U will prevail.
Wesleyan at Williams -- A vital NESCAC clash, all the more important because of Williams' run of so-so form. A chance for Wesleyan to solidify 2nd place in the NESCAC, but the Cardinals need to find more consistent scoring.
Haverford at Dickinson -- No love lost between these two, as both try to keep pace with F&M.
Berry at Centre -- A key under the radar tilt that may help determine who gets their conference's very first automatic bid.
Sunday
Trinity (TX) at Colorado College -- The return match exactly one week later. CC will be looking to avenge yesterday's 1-0 loss and grab a signature win for the selection committee.
Quote from: Cheesehead Henry on October 04, 2014, 12:38:53 PM
http://wartburgcircuit.org/wartburg-luther-soccer-teams-stand-united-against-hate/
I saw this video floating around the IIAC homepage and thought it was a really neat video. Has anybody else heard of this problem happening in other parts of the nation? Sad to hear that people still use racism on the field during this wonderful game.
Cheesehead, Unfortunately I think that racism still exits at all levels of the sport. Its great to see these two schools come together despite the rivalry and try and make a difference and raise awareness for a problem that is often overlooked at this level of the sport.
Wow. Haverford and Rutgers-C embroiled in a shootout, with the Fords leading 4-2 60 minutes in.
And now Camden down to 10 men in the 63rd minute.
Haverford 7 Rutgers-C 3 (no misprint)
Did anyone witness the RUC vs Haverford game? That is a lot of goals.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 06, 2014, 09:06:58 PM
Haverford 7 Rutgers-C 3 (no misprint)
Stunning score. Ford is good, but that score!
A lot of Centennial vs NJAC games tomorrow. Which matches do people like?
I think both Mules and Haverford win today.
Messiah pounds Lycoming 4-0.
St. Mary's vs Salisbury in a big conference game. The Gulls should win by 2.
Stevens over Swat
Wartburg at home by 2 over St Olaf. (Since 2011, St. Olaf has 16 losses. Only twice have they lost by more than 1 goal; both times to Luther)
Did anyone see the RUC vs Haverford game? I heard RUC had some injuries and suspensions.
Messiah vs Lycoming will be a rematch of the MAC final later so we will see if Lycoming can match them.
Haverford over Rowan
Muhls over TCNJ
Dickinson over Misericordia
I didn't see it, but from the looks of it they had a few starters not playing...
I thought they would be good to go at home after going up 2-1... put in some hot pockets... came down and saw they were down 3-2 on the stat tracker. After the red card I'm sure they were chasing the game which led to the additional pounding.
I was at the Kean game and they looked solid, just a mistake in the back for the goal they let up. Kean GK made 3 phenomenal saves in the 2nd half. Kean had some pace and a few technically sound players. #10 very dangerous around the box. Camden will need to sort it out in the back if they want to gain any kind of momentum, because the front 6 is still solid. At the very best they could be 2013 Williams.. but they would have to run the table (IF they make it to the NJAC title or win the regular season title). At the very worst, they lose and ECAC tourney game. Season is still young for them as they have MSU and Newark looming...
I think they will beat Newark at home, and get in a shoot-out with Montclair. The key for them is atleast getting that bye so they have the home field advantage for the semi final.
NCAA South Atlantic Rankings would probably look like this:
Emory
CNU
Rutgers-Newark
Salisbury
Montclair
Berry
Roanoke
Birmingham Southern
York
Rowan
It looks about right for your South Region.
Any thoughts on Mid-Atlantic?
Yes RUC can score and are especially dangerous if Ryan can start to find the back of the net.
Loved this...for the official stats on the Haverford Live Stats the weather was listed simply as "Perfect Day for Soccer."
Meanwhile, Haverford got by Rowan 1-0.
Haverford is sitting at 5th place in the NJAC with a 3-2 record... haha.
And York drops another shocker to PSU Harrisburg... 4-4-4 on the season.
Haverford 1 Rowan 0.
3-0 in 5 days. Tough stretch for the Fords and looks like they are getting healthy. On the road Saturday to #22 Dickinson.
York? Win conference or out.
Watching Messiah play Lycoming now. The entire game being played in Messiah's offensive final 3rd. Incredible display of possession. Paradoxically, Messiah would have better chances to score if Lycoming could get some possession so that Messiah would then have more space to operate and create better openings. They might as well move the other goal to the center line.
2-0 Messiah with 17:01 left in 1st half. Payne with both goals. Thompson just entered game which I'm sure is a huge relief for Falcon Nation.
Dickinson 1-0 vs Misericordia 27:00 minutes left in half.
F&M 1-0 vs DeSales. Heard maybe Scott got injured when he scored? Anyone watch game?
Messiah announcers reported F&M coach is in attendance at Messiah game. A little scouting for a meeting in 5-6 weeks?
Steven's 1-0 over Swat Half
Goucher vs Catholic tie
Dickinson 1 Miseri 0 7 minutes left
Messiah 2 Lycoming 0 at Half
Scranton 0 Drew 0
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 08, 2014, 07:27:52 PM
Watching Messiah play Lycoming now. The entire game being played in Messiah's offensive final 3rd. Incredible display of possession. Paradoxically, Messiah would have better chances to score if Lycoming could get some possession so that Messiah would then have more space to operate and create better openings. They might as well move the other goal to the center line.
2-0 Messiah with 17:01 left in 1st half. Payne with both goals. Thompson just entered game which I'm sure is a huge relief for Falcon Nation.
And 3-0 is the final from Grantham. Yes, good to see Thompson get some minutes.
Mid-Atlantic region's top 3 teams win again.
Messiah
F&M
Dickinson
Messiah now goes into the easier part of their schedule.
Watch out for Wartburg. Dismantling St Olaf and on a hot streak.
Wartburg has been good in the past.
What are the top teams out West, Great Lakes, North, Central which we might not know as we inch toward the NCAA Tournament?
backyarddawg,
In reference to York: if they can somehow run the table, including a big win over Salisbury AND get to the CAC final, then there is a strong case for them to get in given their SOS). It would also help if Miseri wins the MAC Freedom conference title and NC Wesleyan wins the USAC.
The South Atlantic got 7 teams in last year; 3 NJAC, 2 CAC, ODAC champ, USAC champ. With Emory seemingly already a lock, that's another team. Does the South Atlantic get 8 or 9 this year? I would think at this point no conference will get three in; Emory, CNU, NJAC champ, NJAC runner up, CAC runner up, ODAC champ, USAC champ. Not sure where the SAA is this year in terms of AQ (Pool B or C)... but I would throw in Berry as well.
Last year:
NE - 13 teams
MA - 9 teams
GL, E, N - 8 teams
SA - 7 teams
W,C - 4 teams
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 09, 2014, 08:10:31 AM
Wartburg has been good in the past.
What are the top teams out West, Great Lakes, North, Central which we might not know as we inch toward the NCAA Tournament?
As for the North. There were 8 teams from the North last year, but I do not see that many going this year.
As of now, I predict the top three teams in the North being Wartburg, Loras, and Luther (all from the IIAC) I think they will all get into the tourney with 2 at-large bids and then the automatic bid for whoever wins the conference tourney.
I think Gustavus will win the MIAC conference automatic bid but no teams from the MIAC will get an at-large bid.
St. Scholastica and Carrol (who is not very good) will get an automatic bid from their respective conferences
I do not think any Wisconsin teams have done enough to get a group B bid this year (Oshkosh got it last year), but I admit I don't know about group B teams in other regions--maybe they are all not very good.
As a bonus prediction, I think Trinity, Texas will get put in this quadrant and be the number one seed therefore hosting the first four rounds.
Overall, Wartburg (last year losing to Trinity in double OT in sweet 16), Loras (last year lost in Final Four on 70 yard free kick), and Luther (last year lost in second round to Loras in pks) all are capable of making deep runs into NCAA tourney.
The North Region and MIAC/IIAC in particular tend to get quite a bit of respect from the NCAA committee due to strong SOS- mostly from playing each other - IIAC vs MIAC. Its not for fetched to think the MIAC could get 2 teams in the tourny for this reason. SOS has proven to be heavily weighted by the selection committee in years past and both GAC and St. Olaf will have strong SOS and overall records come selection time.
IIAC should get three in this year again, assuming Loras/Wart/Luther don't go on an unlikely nose-dive.
Outside of Wisconsin, I don't think there are too many independent, Pool B teams left (UCSC out west, not sure of any other teams). UCSC is 7-4-1 with their best win against North Park. So likely a UW school will make the tourny as well.
I'm just not sure that St. Olaf has any good wins to show they should be in the tourney. They have not beaten anyone ranked in any region although the tie to Gustavus was a good one. I could see them possibly making the tourney if they get wins against St. Thomas, Superior, and Carleton. So far this season they just haven't had bad results vs. bad teams.
Not sure how long it's been since a UW school was not in the D3 NCAA's, mostly due to the Pool B bid. So it's likely one of them will get in. UWW may have taken a big step by also beating North Park. It will come down to the conference season though with UWW yet to play a conference game. I still think UWO has the inside track by playing a tough schedule.
Likely top 4 seeds for each NCAA tourney quadrant based on results to date:
Quadrant 1
Brandeis
Amherst
Oneonta St
SLU/Tufts/Wheaton(MA)/RPI/Midd/Wesleyan
Quadrant 2
Messiah
Franklin&Marshall
Christopher Newport
Emory/Salisbury/Dickinson/Muhlenberg/Haverford/Rutgers-Newark (one or two of these moved to Quad 3?)
Quadrant 3
Kenyon
Wheaton(Ill)
Calvin
John Carroll/OWU/Hope/DePauw/North Park
Quadrant 4
Trinity(TX)
Loras
Wartburg
Whitworth/Luther/Colorado College
Other ideas, especially regarding likely placements of teams? Emory could be higher but I doubt they get through UAA unscathed. And I could see a dangerous team like Rochester, if they make it, being placed in any of the first 3 quadrants.
Quadrant 4 looks about right to me as of now but there are some huge games coming up for that quadrant.
10/12 Rematch Trinity vs Colorado at Colorado this time
10/18 Rematch Whitworth vs. Puget Sound at Puget Sound this time
10/18 Loras at Luther
10/25 Wartburg at Loras
^^^^^Agreed, as in every quadrant.
Are there any other teams that have been placed in West bracket ever historically? Wheaton? North Park? Calvin/Hope? Wash U? Or could a team like Emory and/or Rochester be placed in Midwest?
If anything, NCAC, the lowest team in Quad 2 would get shipped up the NE/E Quad 1...
Depending on seeding and hosting, the West probably get grouped together in a one weekend shot deal.
Plenty of season left as the conference play begins to heat up...
I'm kind of new to the NCAA bracket quadrant thing. Why do teams like Trinity and other Southern/Western Teams get paired with the midwest/Northern teams?
Looking at the Pool B / Pool C parameters for this year, I come up with the following.
By my count, there are 10 Pool B teams in 2014:
Maine-Presque Isle
St. Joseph's College (Brooklyn)
Maranatha Baptist (I think they'll delare for the NCCAA tournament instead)
UW-Oshkosh
UW-Platteville
UW-Superior
UW-Whitewater
Findlandia
Nebraska Wesleyan (I think they'll delare for the NAIA tournament instead)
UC Santa Cruz
I believe with Centenary (La.) becoming eligible this year, William Peace adding a men's team this year (which is immediately eligible because their athletics program is already tournament eligible), and the loss of Polythenic (aka NYU-Poly) to the merger with NYU, there is a net gain of one eligible men's team. Also, the Southern Athletic Association (SAA) is now eligible for an AQ so their eight teams leave Pool B for Pool A.
So by my count . . .
No. of eligible teams = 398 + 2 - 1 = 399
Division III access ratio = 6.5
The tournament field size = eligible teams / access ratio = 399 / 6.5 = 61.4 < 64 max. (I assume this will round down to 61, but the NCAA has seemed inconsistent on that over the years.)
No. of AQ conferences = number of Pool A automatic berths (AQ) = 41 + 1 = 42 (one more than the 41 last year)
No. of Pool A teams is 380 + 2 - 1 + 8 = 389
The Pool A access ratio = Pool A teams / Pool A berths (AQ) = 389 / 42 = 9.26
No. of Pool B teams = 18 - 8 = 10
No. of Pool B berths = Pool B teams / Pool A access ration = 10 / 9.26 = 1.08, rounds to 1 berth (same as last year)
No. of Pool C berths = Field Size - Pool A berths (AQ) - Pool B berths = 61 - 42 - 1 = 18 berths (one less than the 19 last year)
Quote from: Durantula on October 09, 2014, 02:20:51 PM
I'm kind of new to the NCAA bracket quadrant thing. Why do teams like Trinity and other Southern/Western Teams get paired with the midwest/Northern teams?
Mostly it has to do with what is most economical for the NCAA. The $$$ seems to be the primary factor year after year in placing teams and match ups for d3 tourney.
The last few years trinity has had to play a team from the ASC conference or even teams out west before facing a team from the North in the sweet 16 or elite 8. The SCIAC and NWC are at a disadvantage being so far away from the other d3 teams and almost always play a first round game on the west coast. I would be surprised if Trinity plays a team from the north eary in the tourny.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 09, 2014, 01:15:34 PM
^^^^^Agreed, as in every quadrant.
Are there any other teams that have been placed in West bracket ever historically? Wheaton? North Park? Calvin/Hope? Wash U? Or could a team like Emory and/or Rochester be placed in Midwest?
Calvin did have to go out to Redlands along with Texas-Tyler for the sweet 16 games when they went to the final 4 in 2011.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on October 09, 2014, 06:58:04 PM
Mostly it has to do with what is most economical for the NCAA. The $$$ seems to be the primary factor year after year in placing teams and match ups for d3 tourney.
I remember when Colorado College had to travel to Babson for their first- and second-round games in 2012 (CC ended up beating the hosts 3-1.) Can hardly think that was practical IMHO.
CC is pretty isolated. It's not practical for them to travel anywhere. I've been following d3 soccer for over a decade. The financials are a big driver in travel/match ups, particularly with early round games. I believe this is even reflected in the NCAA handbook, but there are exceptions from time to time.
A ton of good match-ups this weekend:
Brandeis @ Rochester 1:00 pm
Oneonta St @ Plattsburgh 1:00 pm
Chicago @ Emory 11:00 am
CNU @ Frostburg 2:00 pm
Wheaton (MA) @ MIT 1:00 pm
Wash U @ CMU 11:00 am
Wesleyan @ Williams 12:00 pm
Tufts @ Conn 2:30 pm
Haverford @ Dickinson 7:00 pm
Any I am sure many more.
Who do people got?
backyarddog, great call on Muhlenberg in the other thread.
Apologies to Brandeis at Rochester, but your list above left out the biggest game of the day, which is DePauw at OWU (7:00 pm).
I see Rochester tripping up Brandeis, mostly because Rochester desperately needs a huge win to get back on track.
I think Wesleyan has enough to win at Williams.
Tempted to pick MIT but Wheaton (MA) needs to reassert how good they are.
CNU continues rolling, as does Oneonta.
Chicago upsets Emory and Wash U finds a way to get by CMU.
Can't decide on Haverford-Dickinson so I'll call that a draw.
As for the massive DePauw-OWU tilt, it's hard to picture either team losing this one. Will have tournament-level intensity, DePauw is the only NCAC squad to beat OWU in the last 4 years, and I believe both times it was on OWU's famed Roy Rike pitch.
UChicago pulls the upset 1-0 at Emory. Surprise of the season (so far) for me.
Brandeis losing 2-0 at Rochester. Having missed the second half livestream, I've heard that both of Rochester's goals have been somewhat fortunate (a cross that went top corner and a corner kick—unconfirmed) but from what I saw in the first half the Judges didn't created a whole lot and have been outshot. Thus, U of R probably deserves to be in front.
Messiah survives a challenge at Lebanon Valley winning 3-2 after falling behind early 1-0.
Colton Bloecher, the senior All-American at OWU, proved again why he is one of the best and most clutch players in D3. In a massive NCAC duel where DePauw and OWU battled to a 0-0 scoreline through 84 minutes, Bloecher delivered an EPL-quality free kick from 25 yards out to stun the Tigers. 3 minutes later Bloecher earned a PK for OWU that made the victory look more comfortable than it was. Over his 4 years Bloecher has decided games in the final 5-10 minutes (and I believe in the final 10 seconds on one occasion against Denison) too many times to count.
The loss has to be a bitter pill for DePauw who were denied a NCAA bid last year and now are likely looking down the barrel of having to win consecutive road games in Delaware and Gambier (or Gambier and Delaware) in the NCAC tourney to earn a bid. On the other hand, the Great Lakes region does not have the number of teams with stellar records thus far as in recent years, so the region either is going to earn less bids or a team with a more mediocre record than usual may get in. We wait to see what happens with Wabash, whether John Carroll can win the regular season OAC crown and their tournament, and if a Carnegie Mellon and/or Centre forces their way into serious consideration. Carnegie Mellon has rebounded from a very rough start (but has a gauntlet of better UAA teams to play) and Centre had a nice 4-0 win over Berry last night. A wild card would be a team like Ohio Northern, currently out of the picture, surging to win the OAC tournament.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on October 11, 2014, 11:13:16 PM
Messiah survives a challenge at Lebanon Valley winning 3-2 after falling behind early 1-0.
The score certainly looks like it was a challenge, but the stat sheet shows a somewhat different story.
Keep an eye on Wheaton (Ill). They just keep winning.
Wheaton(Ill) indeed is a strong final four candidate and arguably one of the few teams equipped to go head-to-head against Messiah.
Upstarts Gordon and Lycoming have now dropped two in a row.
Dickinson wins impressively against a red-hot Haverford squad and are looking like a worthy challenger to F&M. Gettysburg has gone in a tailspin, so Muhlenberg and Haverford seem to be the other Centennial bid candidates at the moment.
The Salisbury loss was surprising, as the Sea Gulls seem to be a popular darkhorse choice nationally. CNU stumbles to a draw at Frostburg, and York just continues to lose.
Rutgers-Newark has won 13 in a row, and has played 15 games overall (while many schools have only played 11 or 12). Montclair quietly has rattled off 7 wins in a row since a loss to Messiah, and don't look now but Rutgers-Camden at 8-6 overall is 4-1 in the NJAC.
Oneonta keeps rolling, and in the Liberty SLU has won 7 straight with RPI and Vassar still in a good position.
Carnegie Mellon and Chicago remarkably sit atop the UAA, and Chicago suddenly looks viable with a huge road win at previously unbeaten Emory and what must be one of the highest SOSs in the country. Wash U currently is in the UAA basement at 0-2. Rochester came through in a game it really had to win against powerhouse Brandeis.
Calvin has run off 10 straight.
Tufts is looking more and more legit and should be a formidable NCAA tournament foe. Middlebury, who some viewed as a strong contender for #2 in the NESCAC has slumped. Williams (don't count them out unless they are mathematically eliminated) got a massive win at home over Wesleyan just when I thought the Cardinals were ready to separate themselves as a top 3 NESCAC squad.
The Loras crowd seems more subdued than usual. They remain positioned just fine while not blowing everyone out. Is Loras vulnerable or are they just treading water until tourney time? A big clash at home next Saturday with Luther looms.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 10:08:38 AM
Colton Bloecher, the senior All-American at OWU, proved again why he is one of the best and most clutch players in D3. In a massive NCAC duel where DePauw and OWU battled to a 0-0 scoreline through 84 minutes, Bloecher delivered an EPL-quality free kick from 25 yards out to stun the Tigers. 3 minutes later Bloecher earned a PK for OWU that made the victory look more comfortable than it was. Over his 4 years Bloecher has decided games in the final 5-10 minutes (and I believe in the final 10 seconds on one occasion against Denison) too many times to count.
As many great players that OWU has had, it's hard to think about one player that has meant more to his team than Bloecher does to this one. Without him, it's scary to think what their record would be. Bloecher also was a starter on the 2011 championship team who if I remember correctly, scored a huge goal in the elite 8 against Hope and delivered a great assist on the tying goal vs ONU in the round of 16.
I think the more deserving team won the game last night at OWU. I guess we will see how legit Wabash is when they travel to Delaware this week. Their belief tank is probably as high as anyones in the country and deservedly so, for a program that has been synonymous with last place and sub .500 seasons, they should be over the moon with their season so far, weak scheduling or not.
The Messiah train keeps rolling. Wheaton keeps rolling. Trinity (TX) keeps rolling. Kenyon keeps rolling. I don't know much about the northeast but Amherst continues their 3 year stretch of being undefeated in regular season games sitting at 9-0-2 as of now. Is this the year they get out now that Williams is down?
Wabash escapes in Meadville 4-3 with winning goal at 89:48. Wabash came back from 2-1 deficit in lst half, led 3-2, Allegheny tied at 3 with about 11 minutes left, and Allegheny seemed to dominate possession with numerous corners and throws deep in Wabash territory, and then the Little Giants hit on the counter in the last 20 seconds. Happy ride back to Crawfordsville as they get ready for the trip to Delaware.
Saw Dickinson won 3-1 vs Haverford- anyone watch the game?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 11:21:09 AM
Wheaton(Ill) indeed is a strong final four candidate and arguably one of the few teams equipped to go head-to-head against Messiah.
Upstarts Gordon and Lycoming have now dropped two in a row.
Dickinson wins impressively against a red-hot Haverford squad and are looking like a worthy challenger to F&M. Gettysburg has gone in a tailspin, so Muhlenberg and Haverford seem to be the other Centennial bid candidates at the moment.
The Salisbury loss was surprising, as the Sea Gulls seem to be a popular darkhorse choice nationally. CNU stumbles to a draw at Frostburg, and York just continues to lose.
CNU did not STUMBLE. FSU has the 3rd best defense in the country. Jalon Brown did not know what to do and after watching this it is evident that he is in a more difficult conference. Its amazing that FSU started, I believe 6 or 8 freshman against this nationally ranked team and held them off.
Rutgers-Newark has won 13 in a row, and has played 15 games overall (while many schools have only played 11 or 12). Montclair quietly has rattled off 7 wins in a row since a loss to Messiah, and don't look now but Rutgers-Camden at 8-6 overall is 4-1 in the NJAC.
Oneonta keeps rolling, and in the Liberty SLU has won 7 straight with RPI and Vassar still in a good position.
Carnegie Mellon and Chicago remarkably sit atop the UAA, and Chicago suddenly looks viable with a huge road win at previously unbeaten Emory and what must be one of the highest SOSs in the country. Wash U currently is in the UAA basement at 0-2. Rochester came through in a game it really had to win against powerhouse Brandeis.
Calvin has run off 10 straight.
Tufts is looking more and more legit and should be a formidable NCAA tournament foe. Middlebury, who some viewed as a strong contender for #2 in the NESCAC has slumped. Williams (don't count them out unless they are mathematically eliminated) got a massive win at home over Wesleyan just when I thought the Cardinals were ready to separate themselves as a top 3 NESCAC squad.
The Loras crowd seems more subdued than usual. They remain positioned just fine while not blowing everyone out. Is Loras vulnerable or are they just treading water until tourney time? A big clash at home next Saturday with Luther looms.
Professional Ballboy, no disrespect was intended.
When a highly nationally ranked team outshoots the opponent 25 to 6 and 12 to 1 for SOG, AND misses a PK, I would call that stumbling to a draw. Obviously Frostburg did a great job holding them off, especially the GK, but the highly rated defense still yielded 25 shots and from the CNU point of view I'm guessing it's a game where they feel they shouldn't have dropped points.
And I would guess that Jalon Brown will be fine.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 11:21:09 AM
The Loras crowd seems more subdued than usual. They remain positioned just fine while not blowing everyone out. Is Loras vulnerable or are they just treading water until tourney time? A big clash at home next Saturday with Luther looms.
I think a big part of Loras' results lately have been due to the loss of two of their best offensive players (Rummelhart and Bradley). They both are very difficult pieces to replace and combine that with the departure of Cavers/Figura/Milkent, this team is still making some adjustments.
Next Saturday will be an important game for the Duhawks, but I believe it will all come down to October 25 against Wartburg.
Tasty Treats for the D3 Soccer Fan over the Next 10 Days
Tuesday
Medaille @ Penn St-Behrend -- A battle for top spot in the AMCC
Carleton @ Macalester -- The Northfield vs St Paul derby.
Amherst @ Drew -- Serpone goes home.
Wednesday
Calvin @ Kzoo -- Kalamazoo boasts one of the best video feeds in the country.
Wheaton (Ill) @ Carthage -- Trap game for Wheaton, or do the Thunder just keep rolling?
Kenyon @ Denison -- NCAC rivalry game under the lights on a less than stellar pitch.
Wabash @ OWU -- The Little Giants run into the Big Giants. No storming the streets of Crawfordsville after this one.
Scranton @ Oneonta -- Landmark title contender Scranton looking to score a big-time non-conference win.
St Mary's @ Christopher Newport -- Good luck to the Seahawks facing a frustrated, flustered, and Frostburged Jalon Brown.
Virginia Wesleyan @ Lynchburg -- The ODAC conference title is still up for grabs.
Pomona-Pitzer @ Occidental -- I have no real interest in this one but wanted to use the word 'Sagehens.'
Friday
Carnegie Mellon @ Brandeis -- Huge weekend in the UAA as CMU catches Brandeis at the wrong time after the Judges' first loss.
Emory @ NYU -- 11:00 am on a Friday in the Big Apple? Doesn't seem ideal for Emory, and this one is big for the Eagles after losing at home to Chicago and a trip to Brandeis 2 days later.
Cortland @ Brockport -- Brockport has gotten more ink but Cortland is in a position to perhaps claim a second bid for the SUNYAC if they can win this one.
Chicago @ Rochester -- Chicago looks to pull two upsets in a row while Rochester needs to consolidate a winning trend after the Brandeis victory.
Sewanee @ Rhodes -- Best barbecue in D3.
Saturday
Loras @ Luther -- Luther dropped a tough one at home to Wartburg and a win over Loras would make that a distant memory, but Loras is looking to surge into another gear.
Johns Hopkins @ F&M -- Hopkins tries to stay viable in the Centennial race but F&M is not inclined to lend a helping hand.
Amherst @ Wesleyan -- Wesleyan no doubt feels like they gave away precious points in Williamstown, and a result here is key to ensuring a NESCAC playoff home game and also for impressing the NCAA selection committee. Will Wesleyan be "last four in" or "first four out" on selection day (if they don't win NESCAC tourney)?
Whitworth at Puget Sound -- The return match in the great Northwest. PSU won the first one away and pulling the double would be sweet for the Loggers.
Kenyon @ Wabash -- If Wabash managed to get out of Delaware with a result (doubtful) then Mud Hollow Stadium will be more electric than a Wabash-DePauw football game for that Monen Bell or whatever it is. Either way, one wonders if Kenyon will be looking ahead to OWU.
Calvin @ Hope -- Bigger game for Hope at this point and the Flying Dutchmen can probably wrap up a NCAA bid with a victory over the Knights who already are safe barring a total collapse.
North Park @ Dominican -- North Park would like a good insurance win out of conference and Dominican needs good wins in case they don't win their conference.
Vassar @ SLU -- SLU is looking to put the Liberty League race out of reach and the Brewers will try to horse-collar the Saints back to the pack. Vassar also could use another really good win as they could fall to either side of the NCAA bubble.
Haverford @ Muhlenberg -- Are these two fighting for a 3rd bid for the Centennial?
Rutgers-Camden @ Montclair -- Montclair is surging but Rutgers-Camden surprisingly is still very much alive as the top spot in the NJAC remains up for grabs.
Coast Guard @ WPI -- These two surprising NEWMAC teams are probably battling with Babson for a second NEWMAC bid assuming Wheaton snares the automatic bid.
Scranton @ Catholic -- First place in the Landmark is at stake.
Williams @ Tufts -- One of the bigger NESCAC games of the year. Tufts needs to get more than a draw against one of the usual heavyweights, especially at home.
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Superior -- The UW schools are too confusing for me to figure out.
Kean @ Rutgers-Newark -- Kean starts the week still in the NJAC race and back-to-back wins over Rutgers-C and Rutgers-N would cause a double-take.
Dickinson @ Gettysburg -- This one has lost some luster after a Gettysburg swoon, but they still must be playing for some kind of Jug or something.
Sunday
Emory @ Brandeis -- Two previously unbeaten powerhouses. Enough said.
Salisbury @ Frostburg St -- Can Frostburg complete the double and get a result against the Sea Gulls?
Wash U @ Rochester -- Wash U is a really good team that plays a monster schedule and has lost close games against tough foes. Unfortunately Rochester is in no position to feel sorry for them.
Berry @ Birm-Southern and Centre @ Rhodes -- Maybe we'll gain a little clarity out of the confusing picture in the SAA.
Bowdoin @ Babson -- A huge game for Babson to bolster a case for an at-large bid down the road.
Monday, October, 20th
Carleton @ Wartburg --- Despite 5 losses already, Carleton is still alive in the conference race with GAC and St Olaf, and an upset win at Wartburg would jumpstart some confidence.
Tuesday, October 21st
OWU @ Kenyon -- An odd early afternoon midweek game where Kenyon could still be fatigued from the long trip to Wabash, but make no mistake, both squads will be sky-high for this one, with a recent history of intense battles and reputations on the line. Kenyon is hungry to take something that OWU doesn't intend to relinquish anytime soon. They most likely will play again so the bragging rights may be brief.
Roanoke @ Lynchburg -- An ODAC classic with a regular season conference title potentially on the line. If you haven't watched one of these tilts on video you should check it out.
Stevens @ Rutgers-Newark -- A non-conference New Jersey blockbuster with Stevens eager to prove they are still a serious contender on the national scene.
Wednesday, October 22nd
Christopher Newport @ Salisbury -- All I can I say is I hope Salisbury has good video because I expect to be tuned in.
DePauw @ Centre -- Yes, Centre is placed in the Great Lakes region so it is possible these two teams could be fighting tooth and nail over one of the last at large bids.
Good stuff again, NCAC.
Centre is actually in the South Atlantic region now (SAA also gets an AQ bid).
I definitely think the Centennial gets 3 in this year (unless a top 5-10 team does not win the AQ)...
I don't think Emory's SOS has really been all thattt tough, but the UAA will certainly give us a better idea. Even with the long road trip, they should and MUST beat NYU. Brandeis, Rochester, and CMU is a tall order to fill. Three should make it from the UAA this year as well.
Very odd that Rochester beating Brandeis is leading as the biggest surprise upset in the latest poll when that game was BY FAR the most even matchup of all the games listed.
I think a few teams still needed a good test (Brandeis/Oneonta etc) before Tourney and people wanted to know how good they really are.
Doensn't mean Brandeis wont get a second star on their chest this fall, but a good measuring stick.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2014, 05:20:05 PM
Very odd that Rochester beating Brandeis is leading as the biggest surprise upset in the latest poll when that game was BY FAR the most even matchup of all the games listed.
I didn't really see any crazy upsets last week/end... However, PSU-Harrisburg over Salisbury would be my pick. CNU drawing Frostburg State a close second. Albright over Lycoming isn't a shocker. UAA is always close.
On another note, NESCAC likely to get 3 teams, NEWMAC 2, Brandeis, and the CCC AQ.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 11:30:52 PM
Tasty Treats for the D3 Soccer Fan over the Next 10 Days
Saturday
Calvin @ Hope -- Bigger game for Hope at this point and the Flying Dutchmen can probably wrap up a NCAA bid with a victory over the Knights who already are safe barring a total collapse.
NCAC ...Thanks for the week ahead previews - great stuff. I would add that the Calvin-Hope game is at Hope which has one of the finest, if not the finest, soccer venues in all of D3. Throw in the intensity of the rivalry and this game will be played in an absolutely phenomenal atmosphere in front of a huge crowd. Worth the trip if you ever have the opportunity to go see.
Quote from: Puerco Espin on October 12, 2014, 10:01:54 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 11:21:09 AM
The Loras crowd seems more subdued than usual. They remain positioned just fine while not blowing everyone out. Is Loras vulnerable or are they just treading water until tourney time? A big clash at home next Saturday with Luther looms.
I think a big part of Loras' results lately have been due to the loss of two of their best offensive players (Rummelhart and Bradley). They both are very difficult pieces to replace and combine that with the departure of Cavers/Figura/Milkent, this team is still making some adjustments.
Next Saturday will be an important game for the Duhawks, but I believe it will all come down to October 25 against Wartburg.
Agree - I think the loss of Cavers especially has impacted Loras. Heard he was GA at Misericordia now. But their depth will always make them a factor. Some one will have to beat this team - they won't beat themselves.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 13, 2014, 06:53:13 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2014, 05:20:05 PMOn another note, NESCAC likely to get 3 teams, NEWMAC 2, Brandeis, and the CCC AQ.
Hard to see NESCAC getting 3 in this year. NESCAC only got 2 last year, and the conference is down this year compared to last. Additionally, NESCAC is 1-2-2 head to head with the NEWMAC and NESCAC #3 Williams lost at home to NEWMAC #3 Babson. NEWMAC is arguably more deserving this time around.
I don't completely disagree but a few games doesn't tell the full tale. NESCAC 9th best also beat NEWMAC 1st place just last Tuesday
What are some of the other best D3 soccer venues?
KnightFalcon, thanks for your other comment. I have really enjoyed learning more about all of the different colleges and their programs across the United States. I've actually learned a lot. I tend to have an East Coast bias, along with a New Englandish bias for the US News Top 50 lists, and so to learn about all of these other great places, where kids achieve at such a high level and then go on to do great things and where the alumni feel so passionately about their schools, is something I really appreciate. It's actually liberating to learn about all these other places where such wonderful things happen.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on October 13, 2014, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: Puerco Espin on October 12, 2014, 10:01:54 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 12, 2014, 11:21:09 AM
The Loras crowd seems more subdued than usual. They remain positioned just fine while not blowing everyone out. Is Loras vulnerable or are they just treading water until tourney time? A big clash at home next Saturday with Luther looms.
I think a big part of Loras' results lately have been due to the loss of two of their best offensive players (Rummelhart and Bradley). They both are very difficult pieces to replace and combine that with the departure of Cavers/Figura/Milkent, this team is still making some adjustments.
Next Saturday will be an important game for the Duhawks, but I believe it will all come down to October 25 against Wartburg.
Agree - I think the loss of Cavers especially has impacted Loras. Heard he was GA at Misericordia now. But their depth will always make them a factor. Some one will have to beat this team - they won't beat themselves.
It will be interesting to see how Loras plays against Luther and Wartburg in the upcoming weeks. With Loras barely slipping past many of the teams on their schedule (whether having to come back from being down or struggling to find the net), Luther's also extremely respectable season with their only loss at the hands of Wartburg, and Wartburg being on a hot streak with only 2 losses earlier on in the season, these 3 IIAC teams will make the north region interesting this year.
This is especially considering Loras is usually the dominant powerhouse in the north region, with no teams getting the notoriety or an as impressive record as them. With them barely slipping past their competition, it makes the north region and the entire midwest as interesting as ever.
Also, with the MIAC being less clean-cut as it usually is, this could be the year that the IIAC takes dominance in the region and possibly Loras, Luther and Wartburg all get far in the tournament, if the natty tourney schedule permits. The MIAC's toughest teams in Gustavus and St. Olaf just don't have the caliber of teams to compete against the IIAC's big 3 this year. Not to mention the WIAC (or what is left of it) is a complete toss-up. I have no idea how to predict any of those games and how they can relate regionally to other games in the MIAC and IIAC. It seems the wisconsin schools will lose to a decent or at-par opponent and then have a decent win against a solid opponent. They're not very consistent from what I've seen and Wisconsin doesn't have a clear-cut winner.
Just my thoughts from what I've seen. Anybody else seeing anything similar, or different?
Nice national preview, NCAC. I like how you're able to intelligently weave in interesting games from all over the country. I spend most of my time watching NESCAC but enjoy following other interesting story lines as well. A few of interest to me:
Can relentless recruiter coach LaFaurie and Occidental continue their turnaround vs the PP Sagehens?
Can Rutgers Camden savage their disappointing season by stopping freshman sensation Kyle Goodwin and the talented Montclair?
Can the UPS Loggers (sorry,pun intended) deliver a repeat win vs Whitworth?
Can Denison or OWU stop Kenyon in its quest for a perfect season?
Definitely a tough task playing a crazy schedule with the core that was lost; AA GK (d3soccer), 3 of 4 on the backline (4 at one point with Cutry missing 5 games), a solid ball-winning CDM with a great +/-, and AA Grotti. Rutgers-Camden isn't as good defensively as they used to be, and MSU will definitely give them problems in the final 3rd. Who knows how Camden will approach this game? Defend with numbers and counter OR exchange punches all day in a high scoring affair. First goal probably wins this one... No prediction!
2013: Camden 2, MSU 1 at RUC (ELITE 8)
2013: Camden 0, MSU 0 at RUC
2012: MSU 4, Camden 3 (1 ot) at MSU
2011: Camden 1, MSU 0 at RUC (NJAC FINAL)
2011: Camden 3, MSU 1 at RUC
2010: MSU 2, Camden 1 (2 ot) at MSU
2009: MSU 2, Camden 1 at RUC
2008: MSU 4, Camden 1 at MSU
2008: MSU 1, Camden 0 at MSU (NJAC FINAL)
NSCAA Projections:
1) Messiah
2) Kenyon
3) Trinity
4) Oneonta St (bumps up after Brandeis loss)
5) F&M
6) Brandeis (slips below the undefeated teams but stays #1 in NE over Amherst)
7) Emory
8) Wheaton
9) Loras
10 Amherst (even though unbeaten, don't see them jumping Loras)
11 CNU (drops two spots after the draw to Frostburg St)
12 Calvin
13 St. Lawrence
14 Wabash (here because of unbeaten, but 16 should be their likely slot)
15 Wartburg
16 Colorado (still should be 2nd in the West)
17 Rutgers-Newark (maybe bump Luther even though they didn't lose either)
18 Luther
19 RPI
20 Dickinson (could bump RPI and be 18 or 19th)
21 Pomona-Pitzer (moves up as a result of North Park loss)
22 John Carroll
23 Coast Guard Academy (benefits from Wheaton MA loss)
24 North Park (falls after loss, but still remains #3 over Hope)
25 Cortland St
RV Wheaton MA, Muhlenberg, OWU, Salisbury, Hope
Stevenson holds Messiah to a 0-0 draw.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 14, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
Stevenson holds Messiah to a 0-0 draw.
Will this affect any polls? Or will Messiah still be #1 at the end of the day because everyone knows they're in a class by themselves.
Messiah ties Stevenson 0-0 after double OT
Quote from: chelseafc30 on October 14, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 14, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
Stevenson holds Messiah to a 0-0 draw.
Will this affect any polls? Or will Messiah still be #1 at the end of the day because everyone knows they're in a class by themselves.
Kenyon is now the only unblemished team in the land. Wheaton is at #5 with two losses. So at most, with one tie Messiah drops to #2...maybe.
Messiah is great...but they are human...and yes there are other really good D3 soccer teams out there.
Sounds like Stevenson packed it in. Would be nice to get an account from someone who saw the game.
Hard to justify Messiah not maintaining #1 status but I suppose it's possible that Kenyon, with the only unblemished record, moves up.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on October 14, 2014, 09:48:54 PM
Quote from: chelseafc30 on October 14, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 14, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
Stevenson holds Messiah to a 0-0 draw.
Will this affect any polls? Or will Messiah still be #1 at the end of the day because everyone knows they're in a class by themselves.
Kenyon is now the only unblemished team in the land. Wheaton is at #5 with two losses. So at most, with one tie Messiah drops to #2...maybe.
Messiah is great...but they are human...and yes there are other really good D3 soccer teams out there.
Messiah had 26 shots and only 4 on frame. Hard to win when the ball just isn't bouncing your way sometimes.
By the time next week's polls come out, if Kenyon wins at rival Denison tomorrow and then at #16 Wabash on Saturday, I wouldn't be surprised to see them at #1, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Messiah retain #1 either.
There's no question that Messiah is still the best in the land, but a poll is slightly different. First of all, there are a lot of games to play between now and the next polls, which after all, mean nothing even though they are fun for us fans and for a headline on a school website. And every team that has lost or had a draw has moved down a spot or two if the teams immediately behind them haven't had any blemishes. Why should Messiah be any different? So yeah, if Kenyon wins the next two, or F&M wins if Kenyon gets knocked off, another team should be #1 and will be in at least one of the polls.
I agree - Kenyon should move up and get their shot at #1.
As for the Messiah tie - I only saw the last part of the game and OTs, but messiah owned possession and had several good scoring chances. Goalie made a one handed save on one, several blocks by defenders and several solid headers sent just wide of the post. Thought Thompson won it in OT2 with a clean header that froze the keeper but went just wide. They'll be fine ... They seem to have a game like this each year and it sharpens them up. Bodes well for their homecoming game on Saturday night against Albright as I suspect they'll be ready to get back on track in front of a large crowd.
Quote from: Corazon on October 14, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
Sounds like Stevenson packed it in. Would be nice to get an account from someone who saw the game.
Hard to justify Messiah not maintaining #1 status but I suppose it's possible that Kenyon, with the only unblemished record, moves up.
I watched the entire game online. Stevens packed it in big time - the stats show that too. Messiah had chances to win several times but shots went just wide or high or were blocked...including what looked like a sure winning shot that hit the back of a defender standing just in front of the goal line. Undeniable domination by Messiah, but it was one of those nights where they just couldn't find the back of the net. To Stevenson's credit they came into the game with a plan to defend and they did just that for almost the entire game. They did however create a few opportunities on the occasional counter, especially as Messiah was pressing forward to try to win the game. So kudos to Stevenson, I think they probably achieved what they hoped for.
I would expect Kenyon to easily overtake Messiah if they win their two games, especially given the Wabash game would give them a Top 25 win. I'd wouldn't be surprised if Messiah retained some first place votes, but wouldn't expect many. Kenyon's 592 point total this week does indicate that not all voters have them at No. 2, so F&M and Trinity (Tx.) might even grab a couple first place votes.
Right now (tonight) a reasonable case could certainly be made to keep Messiah ahead of Kenyon (Messiah has commanding wins over No. 16 Montclair St. and RV Dickinson while Kenyon has no signature wins yet given their season opening win caught Carnegie Mellon at the outset of a poor 2-3 (6 GF, 9 GA) start.), but that would be partially neutralized if Kenyon beats Wabash and voters might remember Messiah's narrow (on the scoreboard) 3-2 win over Lebanon Valley and hold that against them more next week than they did this week.
A Kenyon-Wabash tie would make for a much more intriguing Top 25 vote next week, probably bringing F&M and Trinity (Tx.) more into play.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2014, 10:11:53 PM
What are some of the other best D3 soccer venues?
KnightFalcon, thanks for your other comment. I have really enjoyed learning more about all of the different colleges and their programs across the United States. I've actually learned a lot. I tend to have an East Coast bias, along with a New Englandish bias for the US News Top 50 lists, and so to learn about all of these other great places, where kids achieve at such a high level and then go on to do great things and where the alumni feel so passionately about their schools, is something I really appreciate. It's actually liberating to learn about all these other places where such wonderful things happen.
Was hoping someone would pose the best venues question. In addition to Hope, I'd include:
Messiah's Shoemaker field - great crowds, excellent surface and the mystique that goes with all those national titles. Plus, the sunsets at game time are unforgettable. A great experience all the way around.
Wheaton (IL) Joe Bean field - nothing like having trains go by during the game and getting hit by a ball kicked out of bounds
The Rock Pile at Loras is another tough place to play - I will get there myself someday to see a match
OWU is a legendary venue too with a very nice structure
Any others?
Getting way ahead of ourselves on the polls. Kenyon's tougher game probably is tomorrow against Denison, a big rivalry game and Denison should have a big crowd. But if Kenyon does win the next two how jacked up would the OWU Battling Bishops be coming into Gambier on the very same day Kenyon reached #1?
I think F&M and Trinity are very much in play.
As for venues, Christopher Newport looks nice. I think either Roanoke or Lynchburg has a nice new facility, and Dickinson's field looked perfect on video a week or so ago. Joe Bean doesn't have an attractive surface and the sidelines, corners, and touchlines are way too tight.
Any respect for Eastern University yet?
They now sit at 10-2 with wins over York (4-1) and tonight against conference rival Misericordia (1-0 2 ot). Their only blemishes were on the road at RUC where Camden scored early and a slip up against Albright. Definitely a team which seems to be peaking and getting unnoticed. Not a top 10 team yet but definitely someone with their remaining schedule who could finish 15-2 on the year with their only tough game remaining is King's.
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 14, 2014, 11:54:32 PM
Any respect for Eastern University yet?
They now sit at 10-2 with wins over York (4-1) and tonight against conference rival Misericordia (1-0 2 ot). Their only blemishes were on the road at RUC where Camden scored early and a slip up against Albright. Definitely a team which seems to be peaking and getting unnoticed. Not a top 10 team yet but definitely someone with their remaining schedule who could finish 15-2 on the year with their only tough game remaining is King's.
I think Eastern is on the rise and may start getting more votes soon. I believe their coach is a former Messiah player, so no surprise they are experiencing growing success.
The Top 25 is starting to show some stickiness or lag between results and changes in where teams are ranked. It's a common phenomenon - once voters have a general opinion of where a team stands or how "good" they are, it probably takes more evidence than it should to change that opinion. Some examples in this year's poll would be Tufts (still unranked), Christopher Newport moving up despite a draw, OWU being ranked consistently despite some bad losses, etc. That could be the only thing (aside from a Kenyon blemish) that keeps Messiah at #1.
Eastern did receive a few votes this week, so they are starting to come into voters' minds. If they keep winning they'll find a spot in the poll, even if it is late in coming - Wabash, Coast Guard and Rutgers-Newark are evidence of that.
If Kenyon wins this week they'll be #1, and deservedly so. You can only beat the teams in front of you, and Wabash is now ranked in both polls so that will help. But, Denison has had a nasty habit of derailing Kenyon in recent years. Also, Wabash plays at OWU tonight - OWU is 21-0-1 all time, having won 21 straight, so unless Wabash changes major history that takes some shine off Wabash-Kenyon.
As for Kenyon-OWU, without providing bulletin board material I'll say Kenyon will be facing some internal demons as much as OWU. Add in the pressure of a #1 ranking, and that will be a serious test of credentials.
Finally, just wanted to give another vote for Newport and add Trinity (Texas) in the list of venues. At the 2011 Final Four we played an alumni game there the day of the final, and it's a pretty cool setup with coliseum seating and a deep inset field. A night game with that weather and a big crowd would be fun.
Quote from: chelseafc30 on October 14, 2014, 10:02:07 PM
By the time next week's polls come out, if Kenyon wins at rival Denison tomorrow and then at #16 Wabash on Saturday, I wouldn't be surprised to see them at #1, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Messiah retain #1 either.
It's unlikely that Messiah drops in either poll. The only way they will drop is with a loss. How does Wheaton jump still unbeaten F&M (2-0 week) in NSCAA? How does North Park not slip for losing to an unranked team?
Eastern is having a solid year, but it's clear that York and Camden are on down years. With the Mid-Atlantic being Centennial dominated, I hope Eastern can win the MACF and get that AQ.
Anyone out there with some insight on the Landmark. Looks like a wide open year.
Catholic has tied Salisbury and Drew, but not any really wins that standout. 4-0 L to Messiah, 3-0 L to Dickinson
Scranton doesnt really have any big wins either. 4-1 L to Newark, 1-0 L to Cortland St.
E-town game vs Messiah cancelled.
Merchant Marine or Drew? Drew has played a decent schedule with a T vs Mules and Drew. 1 goal loses to Camden, Amherst and 3-1 loss to Eastern.
Ryan H, good post. I agree that if Kenyon is still unbeaten that the OWU game will be a major test, and from the poll standpoint it's too bad that the OWU game comes right after the polls come out instead of before. What you called "internal demons" I would call more the "aura" or psychological barrier that a couple of my NESCAC friends seem to dismiss. Where I would tend to disagree is that with OWU I don't think that just applies to Kenyon. OWU has had the better team in all of the recent years. It's easy to look at last season (after Kenyon's NCAA run) in hindsight, but let's not forget that OWU was ranked #1 most of the year and all the way up to the shock tournament loss to RHIT. This is the first year that one could arguably say that Kenyon has the stronger team, and even saying that we both know that OWU is talented enough to beat any team in the country on a given day. Also agree with you about Denison, and as I've said Denison is probably the tougher game in comparison to Wabash. That said, Kenyon should be able to handle Denison.
Lastguy, I disagree with you about Messiah, if Kenyon, F&M or Trinity win out this week. A draw with a pretty middling Stevenson team, right after a bit of struggle with Lebanon Valley, seems enough to drop them a spot. Yes, Messiah completely dominated Stevenson and it is miraculous that Messiah didn't score, but the same was true when they lost in PKs to Lycoming. The result still counts. And even though Stevenson packed it in and essentially just tried to clear the ball anywhere 90% of the time they did have a couple of good chances and one great chance to actually win (as Stevenson blew a point black header inside the 6 yard box in OT). Anyway, again, the rankings are not always about who we think is the best team. Look at Wabash being ranked in both polls and show me one non-Wabash observer who thinks they are going to win tonight at currently lesser rated OWU.
F&M tied ALVERNIA at home, whereas Messiah was atleast on the road. Still has quality wins over Dickinson, Montclair St, (York), (Miseri). Messiah SOS also stronger (on both Massey and Bennett rankings).
About the "struggle" vs LVC... F&M only beat DSU 1-0 and Ursinus 2-1. Kenyon only recently beat Allegheny 1-0. A win is still a win, regardless of margin...
Wasn't there a point where OWU had 3 draws to RU-C's two and still remained #1? There have been seasons where Messiah or Trinity had a draw to an unbeaten/untied team and still remained #1. I guess my point is that Messiah should be #1 until they lose. On the other hand, I do remember SLU was #1 2011 when Messiah had an early draw in the year... so who knowsss?!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2014, 09:34:43 AM
Anyone out there with some insight on the Landmark. Looks like a wide open year.
Catholic has tied Salisbury and Drew, but not any really wins that standout. 4-0 L to Messiah, 3-0 L to Dickinson
Scranton doesnt really have any big wins either. 4-1 L to Newark, 1-0 L to Cortland St.
E-town game vs Messiah cancelled.
Merchant Marine or Drew? Drew has played a decent schedule with a T vs Mules and Drew. 1 goal loses to Camden, Amherst and 3-1 loss to Eastern.
Scranton vs Catholic on Saturday should tell us something. Lots of cancellations today, including Scranton against Oneonta.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on October 14, 2014, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2014, 10:11:53 PM
What are some of the other best D3 soccer venues?
KnightFalcon, thanks for your other comment. I have really enjoyed learning more about all of the different colleges and their programs across the United States. I've actually learned a lot. I tend to have an East Coast bias, along with a New Englandish bias for the US News Top 50 lists, and so to learn about all of these other great places, where kids achieve at such a high level and then go on to do great things and where the alumni feel so passionately about their schools, is something I really appreciate. It's actually liberating to learn about all these other places where such wonderful things happen.
Was hoping someone would pose the best venues question. In addition to Hope, I'd include:
Messiah's Shoemaker field - great crowds, excellent surface and the mystique that goes with all those national titles. Plus, the sunsets at game time are unforgettable. A great experience all the way around.
Wheaton (IL) Joe Bean field - nothing like having trains go by during the game and getting hit by a ball kicked out of bounds
The Rock Pile at Loras is another tough place to play - I will get there myself someday to see a match
OWU is a legendary venue too with a very nice structure
Any others?
Kalamazoo College has a terrific, soccer-specific stadium built just three years ago. They are hosting Calvin tonight in what should be a great matchup between the Hornets' stingy defense and the Knights' potent offense (led by All America forward Travis Vegter).
Kzoo has some of the best video I have seen. RPI also very good.
Based on video, SLU has a gorgeous field. Wabash's new facility is also very nice.
The Messiah venue is superb. OWU has a great set-up and soccer-specific site although I would describe the field itself as good but not great. The Kenyon field itself is very good. Oberlin seems to have a good set-up. I would guess there are some very nice fields in the South where the weather is more cooperative.
What is the best field in the NESCAC?
Yes, SLU's field is amazing.
http://www.saintsathletics.com/documents/2013/9/4/macallaster_field_2.pdf
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 15, 2014, 11:47:18 AM
What is the best field in the NESCAC?
My vote is for Hitchcock, with Bowdoin's Pickard Field a close second.
I think a soccer pitch has to have a natural surface (ie grass) to be considered the top venue.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on October 15, 2014, 01:15:40 PM
I think a soccer pitch has to have a natural surface (ie grass) to be considered the top venue.
Agreed 1000%
York falls to Frostburg St. 3-2...
York- falling apart.
The CAC is wide open.
A lot of cancellations today could cause some interesting make up dates. How do the teams strategize?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2014, 06:55:58 PM
York falls to Frostburg St. 3-2...
York is now flirting with missing out on the CAC six-team tournament. UN-believable!
Quote from: backyarddawg on October 14, 2014, 11:54:32 PM
Any respect for Eastern University yet?
They now sit at 10-2 with wins over York (4-1) and tonight against conference rival Misericordia (1-0 2 ot). Their only blemishes were on the road at RUC where Camden scored early and a slip up against Albright. Definitely a team which seems to be peaking and getting unnoticed. Not a top 10 team yet but definitely someone with their remaining schedule who could finish 15-2 on the year with their only tough game remaining is King's.
Eastern's problem is their weak schedule.
Opponents' avg. winning pct. .491 (to date)
Opponents w/ winning records: 5 of 12 (to date)
And those numbers will be even lower (closer to .450) at the end of the regular season as their remaining opponents are a combined 23-41-8 (.375). They need to win the Freedom AQ as it's questionable if they'd snag an at-large berth even at 16-3-0 (after a Freedom final loss) with such a low SOS. 5 or so years ago the NCAA decided make teams with SOS's under .500 ineligible for the regional rankings (and by extension at-large selection), but reversed that decision after the first two (of three) regional rankings that year (Dominican and Swarthmore were high profile teams missing the cut). But it's a great illustration of how important the NCAA takes SOS. But we'll know soon enough (next Wednesday) when the regional rankings come out how the committee rates them given their high win pct. but low SOS.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 15, 2014, 07:29:19 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2014, 06:55:58 PM
York falls to Frostburg St. 3-2...
York is now flirting with missing out on the CAC six-team tournament. UN-believable!
I was thinking the same thing, FW. With Salisbury and St. Mary's looming, it almost looks that way...
There's no question that Messiah, without a blemish, should remain number one. Overall record and SOS should be the prime factors in ranking, not game scores.
101-3-5 the last 4.5 years. Yeah, I'd agree.
Because of OWP/OOWP... Centennial should dominate the NCAA Rankings:
1) Messiah
2) F&M
3) Dickinson
4) Haverford
5) Muhlenberg
6) JHU
7) Eastern
8) Swat
---------------------
9) Miseri
10) Lycoming
What are your thoughts, FW
#5 Wheaton down 1-0 to unranked Carthage. 8 mins remaining in first half.
Kenyon heading into 2nd OT with Denison.
Well, Kenyon doesn't deserve to move up after that performance. Squeak out a win with 30 secs left on an unfortunate GK miscue on a last ditch ball played into the box from 40 yards out. Kenyon did dominate statistically but way too many long balls and little creativity tonight against a very determined Denison team. Game actually looked very similar to Messiah-Stevenson game. I did hear 3rd hand that the Denison crowd was outrageously bad which of course you cannot get a feel for via video.
And Sirius90, a draw is considered a blemish, so Messiah does have one. Kenyon deserved a blemish from tonight but got lucky.
UW-Platteville beats Loras 1-0 in OT.
Wow. You know, I've been seeing it and saying it for a few weeks now. This isn't the Loras team we've seen in the past few years. They just couldn't find the back of the net tonight and UW-Platteville punished them for it. Loras had multiple opportunities and just couldn't put them away, most of them being chances they definitely should have had.
Given that Kenyon came 28 seconds from the same fate as Messiah, against a similar quality side (Denison at 5-6-1 vs. a tougher schedule, Stevenson at 9-5-2 against a softer schedule), with similar domination statistically (Kenyon 21(7)-5(3) shot(SOG) advantage, Messiah 26(4)-4(0) shot(SOG) advantage), I'd say voters would be justified going either way. However, I'd guess most will only see 2OT win and 2OT tie, and go with the winner. However, both teams still have another game this week. Both should pick up wins, as Wabash was totally dominated by a border-line Top 25 Ohio Wesleyan, but who knows. The other question is how much Trinity (Tx.) and F&M will benefit from Kenyon's close-call and nab some first place votes of their own if they can take care of their business yet this week. It will be interesting to see what the voters do.
Flying Weasel, if you aren't already writing officially for the site you should be. You are always right on the money.
You should have seen some of his d3soccer.net posts.
Wheaton about to go down to Carthage... down 2-1 with 3 min left..
North Park defeated Illinois Wesleyan tonight, 3-0, and Wheaton lost to Carthage, 2-1, so NPU is now alone in first place in the CCIW.
Quote from: Cheesehead Henry on October 15, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
UW-Platteville beats Loras 1-0 in OT.
Wow. You know, I've been seeing it and saying it for a few weeks now. This isn't the Loras team we've seen in the past few years. They just couldn't find the back of the net tonight and UW-Platteville punished them for it. Loras had multiple opportunities and just couldn't put them away, most of them being chances they definitely should have had.
Such a strange season with last year's runner-up Rutgers-Camden having 6 losses already, semifinalist Williams having a 1-4-1 stretch that has them playing catch-up, semifinalist Loras struggling and far from dominate despite a decent overall record, Ohio Northern with six losses already, and one of the top programs over the last 10 years York barely able to win a quarter of the games as 4-6-4 and in danger of missing their conference playoffs.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2014, 10:36:08 PMYou should have seen some of his d3soccer.net posts.
Now those were the days! Was kinda feeling nostalgic for the old message board and decided to come out and play a little the past couple days!
Watched OWU-Wabash live, and it wasn't even as close as the stats. Great goalkeeping and some bad offsides calls kept it from being 5 or 6. Kenyon looks like it's feeling the pressure - conference games have been 1-0, 2-0, 1-0, 1-0. Shutouts are great, but Kenyon's scoring and shots on goal are way down from out-of-conference. I actually think their physical style can be a drawback against weaker teams. They tend to muck up games, which is great against Messiah, but unnecessary against Denison. It allows inferior teams to stay closer than they should.
Many top teams seem to be in transition, which should make for craziness down the stretch. It will be verrrrry interesting to see where the AQs end up and who's left to fight over an at-large bid.
Hi all - first time poster! I regularly go to OAC and NCAC games. Been on a pitch for 50 years now: player,ref, coach, etc.
Per the OWU-Wabash game: I was there - and I was at the OWU -Otterbein and OWU - Capital games. Obviously OWU had to replace many players from last year's squad and is starting to find their chemistry. They have some weaknesses on defense - one dad of a current player told me they are an OK team - nothing like teams from the past few years. Biggest issue is consistency from game to game. He said "we never know which side is going to show up."
Wabash fielded a great team of complementary players last night - can't say any one player jumped out as a "star." Except the keeper - as previously posted but for his two incredible saves and the blown offside call (I sat next to the assessor when that play occurred - he winced) the score would have been a minimum of 5 for OWU. Wabash played their hearts out first 45; second half the field was tilted towards their defensive end.
OWU's Kyle Baum is the player to watch against Kenyon. Kenyon's backs remind me of the German side from this summer: big, not necessarily quick. Baum gave Capital troubles and he was a handful last night. If he posts up against Kenyon's center back he will be able to turn and run past him. He's a good finisher - if he gets 2-3 chances he will finish at least one.
Cap scrimmaged Dension preseason: 1-1 draw. I think Kenyon was a bit guilty of looking ahead yesterday, combined with opponents bringing their A game against them. Kenyon protects the middle well and applies high pressure - thrives on turnovers in their opponents defensive end. Capital was very obliging in their 5-1 defeat to them.
Tony Amolo makes everyone around him look great. Wonderful distributor of the ball. The hat-trick Glassman scored against Capital was as much due to Amolo's passes as anything else.
Welcome Domino and great, informative post.
OWU at Kenyon should be a great one. I'm sure OWU will be at their best and I would expect Kenyon to play well. I have noticed the Baum kid also. Very good. That said, Justice for Kenyon may be the best centerback in the country. Never calls attention to himself but is outstanding. And their all-senior back line is very experienced (and very good). Kenyon has seemed out of rythym offensively, including Amolo, but I think they will get it back. In terms of pressure getting to them, I fully expect the Lords to relax after getting through the Denison game last night. I think they will play well against Wabash, and win, lose or draw playing OWU next week will be good for them in terms of getting focused and sharpening the rough edges. As for possibly getting rattled, I don't see it. This is a team that took Messiah to the wire in a high-pressure tournament game on Messiah's extremely energized and partisan home pitch.
Wacky Wednesday night last night. Loras loses. Wheaton (Ill) loses. I watched the end of the Wheaton game that ended bizarrely with Wheaton getting a free kick with .1 second left. Can a goal count if it goes in after the horn has sounded?
Has to cross the line before the horn sounds... and if there is no horn, ball has to cross the line before 0.0
Emory potentially in some real trouble. Down 1-0 to NYU in 2nd half and at Brandeis Sunday.
The bottom feeding NJCU Gothic Knights only lost 1-0 to NYU. Granted, Emory had to travel quite the distance (much like Newark had to earlier in the year). Emory could be on the outside looking in with a bad result today...
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 17, 2014, 12:25:26 PM
Emory potentially in some real trouble. Down 1-0 to NYU in 2nd half and at Brandeis Sunday.
1-0 final. A shock result, but NYU have quietly put together a solid season and are underrated IMHO.
Great result for NYU and Coach Behan. NYU moves to 11-2 & 2-1 in the UAA. If they can some how defeat CMU on Sunday, they have to be in the mix with chances to improve on their SOS.
Great games this weekend. These 2 weeks could be the best 2 weeks of college soccer.
Brandeis downs Carnegie 1-0 in 2OT. Judges were the better team but couldn't find a way through, while Carnegie had a couple of opportunities on the counter. Probably a fair result but the Judges will come up against a wounded animal in Emory on Sunday. Will be a tough test.
Recent results really show that a team's fortunes can be determined by a couple of bounces here and there.
I never imagined Rochester to be in this position. I expected the Yellow Jackets to be serious final four contenders along with SLU. Now they have to play a Wash U team that is winless in the UAA. Emory suddenly has their backs against the wall with Brandeis up next. And Brandeis has won two UAA games very late in the 2nd OTs. And are NYU and Chicago really going to end up getting at large bids from the UAA. If Emory goes to 1-3 in the UAA can they recover from that. Is Wash U going to 0-4 or will Rochester go to 1-3 on Sunday? And then Emory hosts Rochester in the next game for both of those teams after that.
What conference would likely pick up a bid if the UAA only gets 2 or only 3 (as I think they got 4 last year)? Is that good for the NESCAC, or the Liberty?
Did Cortland wrap up a bid with the win over Brockport?
Next couple of weeks are going to be intense.
Quote from: blooter442 on October 17, 2014, 07:26:05 PM
Brandeis downs Carnegie 1-0 in 2OT. Judges were the better team but couldn't find a way through, while Carnegie had a couple of opportunities on the counter. Probably a fair result but the Judges will come up against a wounded animal in Emory on Sunday. Will be a tough test.
Not sure which game you were watching but I caught the game on video and could not disagree more. I was pleasantly surprised by Carnegie Mellon. I thought both teams were extremely even and Carnegie Mellon had better chances but couldn't find a way thru. Both teams play some attractive futbol and maybe even over possess a touch. To may giveaway's in midfield from both teams but neither team could finish their chances. had some dangerous scoring chances. Neither of these teams are Final 4 material but they are very good.
It is very difficult to determine what is Final 4 material. I saw Williams several times last year and have seen Brandeis three times this season, and Brandeis is the better, more complete team. Yet Williams somehow was Final 4 material last year. I believe that Brandeis is the best in New England.
However, with NESCAC being down a little this year, perhaps your argument is that there is not a team in New England that is Final 4 material. That might be a valid point. Time will tell.
Williams has beaten Brandeis rather soundly the past 2 years. In 2012, Brandeis didnt have a sniff at goal. 2013 might have been a bit more even but Brandeis was not the better team. Nescac is not down they are beating each other up , kind of like the UAA this year.
If you read more carefully, I was comparing this year's Brandeis team to last year's Williams team. Brandeis was decent the past couple of years and even you admit that it was more even last year, but Brandeis is a stronger team this year than last.
Meanwhile, Williams and the rest of the NESCAC is most certainly down. It may not even be the best conference in New England based on head to head results.
Brandeis when going up against physical teams will get manhandled. Also, if I saw correctly it looked like they were playing with 3 in the back at times. They are not good enough to get away with that against really good teams. They over possess out of the back and give the ball away a ton in midfield. That is a recipe for disaster against teams that whack it. 2 bets:1. Brandeis gets eliminated in NCAA's before final 4. 2. They do not end up with the #1 seed in New England
You may be correct about the #1 seed. Although Brandeis dominated their New England competition including taking down Tufts 2-0 (who some say is the most talented NESCAC team this season), they play in arguably the stongest conference in the country this year. They tend to beat each other up.
Regarding the strength of the NESCAC this year, it is still a tremendous conference with 4 of the top 9 teams in the most recent NSCAA New England rankings. However, NEWMAC has 4 of the top 7 in the same rankings and holds a winning record vs NESCAC on the season.
Wesleyan beats Amherst but I can't find anything other than the score and that it was in OT. Anyone have any info?
And Kenyon goes down at the hands of Wabash 1-0....HUGE win for Wabash as they are right back in the thick of things in the NCAC title race. Kenyon now shifts their attention to....OWU at home on Tuesday. Should be a good one! Now Wabash needs Kenyon to get a result against OWU to potentially force a 3-way tie. If OWU wins it, they are in the drivers seat.
Wabash's out of conference schedule was so soft that I'm not sure 1 win over the #2 ranked team in the country will help them as dramatically as they need when the regional rankings come out but what a moment for Wabash...congrats Little Giants.
Kenyon loses 1-0 to Wabash. Must be one of biggest wins in Wabash history. Congrats to the Little Giants. And has to be bitterly disappointing for Kenyon where very mediocre play that was catching up to them now has them in a bit of trouble with OWU looming. On cusp of a possible #1 ranking and now could be 3rd place in the NCAC in another few days and no longer controlling their own destiny.
Wesleyan gets a big win so Amherst also no longer unbeaten. And Tufts just completed a 1-0 win over Williams.
Noticed that Cortland lost to Geneseo and Vassar was leading SLU last I checked.
NCAC New England,
What can you tell us about the Kenyon v Wabash game?
Well, so much for Kenyon moving to No. 1. Wabash matched them in a defensive duel (only 8 shots for each side), and netted the games lone goal in the 70th minute. My take is that Kenyon was a little overrated (their schedule has not been that challenging) and that Wabash is maybe a little better than I gave them credit for, but as the comprehensive defeat to Ohio Wesleyan shows, probably not Top 25 material either. This is going to make the Top 25 vote very interesting. Certainly opens the door for F&M, Trinity, and Oneonta St. to grab some 1st and 2nd place votes if they can win their weekend games, although it's most likely that Messiah retains enough votes at the top to stay No. 1.
Midwest, I don't know a lot. I think Flying Weasel probably has it right. Kenyon may have been overrated and Wabash is better than many of us thought. Sounds like it was a pretty even game, which is a surprise in itself and then Wabash gets the one goal they needed off a corner. I imagine Wabash really packed it in for the last 20 minutes after the goal. I'm curious as to what kind of game plan the Wabash coach put together, and I did notice that he subbed a ton. There is also a big difference between how a team might look away on the OWU pitch in a game OWU was ready for and playing an out-of-sorts Kenyon on your home field on senior day. I guess the obvious most concerning thing is what has happened to Kenyon's offense. There is no doubt that Kenyon does have a good deal of talent and their defense still is going to be tough break down, but clearly they need to right the ship in a hurry. Ironically, this may take some of the fun out of the game for OWU, but they are mature enough and well-coached enough that the psychological stuff probably won't phase them much.
I guess another way of looking at it is it's tough out there. If you had asked me a week ago who is the best team in the country after Messiah I would have said Wheaton (Ill). And then they lost. Loras has lost. Brandeis was undefeated and then they lost. Now Emory has lost two in a row. Middlebury barely gets by Bates AT HOME in OT. Amherst loses today. I never expected Rochester to be struggling as they are.
We often say that a loss can be good for teams, and certainly it is possible that after 5-6 straight weeks of being #2 Kenyon started to believe in their press clippings and lost their edge. The problem with one loss, though, is that one can become two, or three. Emory could lose their 3rd straight tomorrow, but then if Brandeis loses there will be some saying Brandeis has been overrated.
One thing is for sure. Everything is still wide open and now looks as though some of the conference tournaments are going to critical, and some teams that have been highly rated may find themselves abruptly on the outside looking in.
I think NCAC is probably right. From what I know about Kenyon, they run a very high tempo and high pressure style that thrives off of being an underdog and is built for games against big teams like an OWU or Messiah. It seems that with Kenyon being at #2 for some time now, they have taken their foot off the pedal and got complacent, and their style doesn't work if they are complacent. They aren't scoring goals anymore and they seem to be overlooking teams including today at Wabash. With that being said however, a team like Kenyon IS one of the teams, like NCAC referred to, that should get their edge back after a loss and therefore be a very dangerous team again. A Kenyon loss today was worst case scenario for OWU, who now finds themselves back in the favorite role with a team that isn't as superior to Kenyon like years past. Tuesday will be a very interesting game and will really decide a huge part of how the NCAC will play out. I really hope the loss today at Wabash gives Kenyon the spark they've been missing recently because if they get it back, OWU will have many issue on Tuesday. I'm secretly hoping Kenyon finishes the year well because I do believe that they are one of the few teams, because of their team is built and their style of play, that can beat Messiah in the tournament. They were very close last year.
Livestats are up, NCAA football on a some beers for a nice Saturday evening.
The basketball shootout has begun... Camden with a goal on MSU 2 minutes into the game.
Luther vs. Loras, JHU vs F&M, Albright vs Messiah...
MSU responds to RUC in the 4th min... 1-1. SHEEESH
MSU goals in 15th and 16th min... up 3-1.
With the Wabash win over Kenyon... looks like Wabash should be #1 in the Great Lakes region now (for NSCAA).
JHU leads F&M 1-0 at the half.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2014, 10:11:10 AM
Not sure which game you were watching but I caught the game on video and could not disagree more. I was pleasantly surprised by Carnegie Mellon. I thought both teams were extremely even and Carnegie Mellon had better chances but couldn't find a way thru. Both teams play some attractive futbol and maybe even over possess a touch. To may giveaway's in midfield from both teams but neither team could finish their chances. had some dangerous scoring chances. Neither of these teams are Final 4 material but they are very good.
Well, I was
at that game and saw Brandeis hit the crossbar and record more shots on goal, and what I thought were better opportunities overall. But, you are entitled to your own opinion. Agree that Carnegie did play well.
Always great to get to Grantham and watch a game at Shoemaker field. Messiah gets back on track and thrills the Homecoming crowd with 7-0 win over Albright
Quote from: blooter442 on October 18, 2014, 07:21:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2014, 10:11:10 AM
Not sure which game you were watching but I caught the game on video and could not disagree more. I was pleasantly surprised by Carnegie Mellon. I thought both teams were extremely even and Carnegie Mellon had better chances but couldn't find a way thru. Both teams play some attractive futbol and maybe even over possess a touch. To may giveaway's in midfield from both teams but neither team could finish their chances. had some dangerous scoring chances. Neither of these teams are Final 4 material but they are very good.
Well, I was at that game and saw Brandeis hit the crossbar and record more shots on goal, and what I thought were better opportunities overall. But, you are entitled to your own opinion. Agree that Carnegie did play well.
They hit the crossbar from 25 yard out...it was a great shot but just because they hit the crossbar doesnt mean they had better overall chances. I thought Carnegie countered well and had 2 or 3 clear chances to score in the 18. That being said the 2 teams were very even. I am responding to a poster who said Brandeis dominated which was not the case
Calvin keeps rolling with another big win against Hope 2-0
I really think a case could be made for Calvin being as good an option for No. 2 as anyone. I think the D3soccer.com voters have underrated them because of the two early losses. This week would be a perfect opportunity for the voters to bump Calvin up to the middle of the Top 10 given the teams above them that have tied and/or lost this week, but somehow I think No. 8 would be as far as they'll jump from their current No. 12.
Quote from: chelseafc30 on October 18, 2014, 05:39:50 PMFrom what I know about Kenyon, they run a very high tempo and high pressure style that thrives off of being an underdog and is built for games against big teams like an OWU or Messiah. It seems that with Kenyon being at #2 for some time now, they have taken their foot off the pedal and got complacent, and their style doesn't work if they are complacent. They aren't scoring goals anymore and they seem to be overlooking teams including today at Wabash. With that being said however, a team like Kenyon IS one of the teams, like NCAC referred to, that should get their edge back after a loss and therefore be a very dangerous team again.
chelseafan, I think you are probably on to something with the complacency. It is easy to start believing that you are better than you are, thinking you can turn it on whenever you want which we see get teams in trouble in all sports at all levels, chirping and swagging with opponents instead of playing with pure determination and focus and perhaps a little of that underdog spirit, picking up silly yellows, etc, etc. One of the things I really appreciate about Messiah, and also programs like OWU that produce year after year, is how they manage to maintain consistency in level of performance. I think we often are clueless about just how hard it is. I'm sure that having been there before helps a lot, and perhaps being in an unfamiliar role (for them) has impacted Kenyon. The juxtaposition of the Harmanis "pressure is getting to them" argument with the complacency argument is interesting. They seem on the surface to be contradictory, but maybe both have some truth.
On another point (and we all do this), I think comparing teams based on one or two outings or similar opponents doesn't work. OWU clearly dominated Wabash at home where the psychology of the game was different than Kenyon playing away at Wabash on the latter's senior day, after Wabash had lost. Kenyon beat Otterbein pretty easily and later OWU crumbled at home to Otterbein by something like 4-1. Also noticed that OWU, even knowing the Kenyon result earlier in the day, barely got out of Meadville with a win over Allegheny, scoring with just a few minutes left in double OT.
Tuesday should be interesting, and exciting.
In other action...
In the second leg Whitworth and Puget Sound tie.
Muhlenberg gets big win over Haverford in 4-3 shootout.
Kean upsets Rutgers-Newark.
North Park loses to Dominican.
I think Messiah will remain #1 but for me F&M has a strong case. I think they have been slightly under-ranked most of the season, and they have played a very tough schedule and still are unbeaten. Are Messiah and F&M the only remaining unbeaten teams? Trinity is right there as well and Oneonta has a case. If Brandeis wins today they will deserve to be right on the doorstep. Tufts likely will make the biggest jump.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2014, 09:18:49 PM
They hit the crossbar from 25 yard out...it was a great shot but just because they hit the crossbar doesnt mean they had better overall chances. I thought Carnegie countered well and had 2 or 3 clear chances to score in the 18. That being said the 2 teams were very even. I am responding to a poster who said Brandeis dominated which was not the case
That was me. ;) You are free to disagree, but I never said that they dominated—I just said that they were the better team.
I saw that Kean win over Newark coming. I can't the F&M case for taking over Messiah at #1. I could see Wabash jumping Kenyon (SOS is much weaker, but they still beat Kenyon H2H. However, Kenyon should be safe considering that it was a road game).
Oneonta St is the other unbeaten, NCAC NE.
Tufts has been under the radar on NSCAA, but they will be #2 in NE region when the NCAA rankings come out Wed.
I think Calvin jumps Wheaton this week in NSCAA and D3soccer, and should be top 5 in both. They have been on a tear...
Brandeis beats Emory 1-0. Nice bounceback weekend for the Judges who when you look at their whole body of work are very deserving of a top 5 ranking.
Lastguy, you're forgetting that during this ranking period Wabash also lost to OWU. Do you really think Wabash is going to jump both of them?
Carnegie Mellon beats NYU 2-1.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2014, 01:08:18 PM
Brandeis beats Emory 1-0. Nice bounceback weekend for the Judges who when you look at their whole body of work are very deserving of a top 5 ranking.
Lastguy, you're forgetting that during this ranking period Wabash also lost to OWU. Do you really think Wabash is going to jump both of them?
Yes, they lost on the road at OWU but beat the #2 team in the nation. Why is that so far-fetched for them to jump Kenyon in the NSCAA poll? I never said Wabash WOULD, but it wouldn't shock me if they did jump Kenyon. Most likely the coaches hold firm, vote Kenyon #1 still, and they just drop to #7 in NSCAA and Wabash bumps up to about 14 or so.
Guess I was wondering where you're putting OWU, and if you think Kenyon would fall below both of them after just 1 loss, a 1-0 away loss.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2014, 09:41:01 PM
I really think a case could be made for Calvin being as good an option for No. 2 as anyone. I think the D3soccer.com voters have underrated them because of the two early losses. This week would be a perfect opportunity for the voters to bump Calvin up to the middle of the Top 10 given the teams above them that have tied and/or lost this week, but somehow I think No. 8 would be as far as they'll jump from their current No. 12.
I have to agree with you, Flying Weasel. I have seen a number of the top teams in the Midwest play this season, including Wheaton, Chicago, Elmhurst, OWU and Hope, and Calvin is clearly the cream of the crop. Their only two losses came in the first week of the season to Wheaton on the road (the one-goal difference coming on questionable PK call) and home to North Central, whom they dominated (24-8 shots, 8-0 corner kicks). They also have a win over OWU in a game they dominated and are led by an All American forward who is rumored to be getting strong looks from a number of MLS teams. The Knights are riding a 12-game winning streak, but have clearly been underrated all season. They are poised to make a deep run in the tournament come November.
Anyone see the Haverford vs Muhlenberg game? Write-up says Hav was up 3-1 with 17 minutes left and lost 4-3. Total breakdown and a crushing loss for Hav. Now they need to win out to make the NCAA Tournament. Great win for the Muhl's might be the game which clinches at large for them.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2014, 03:11:28 PM
Guess I was wondering where you're putting OWU, and if you think Kenyon would fall below both of them after just 1 loss, a 1-0 away loss.
Just my assumption:
NSCAA
1) Wabash 8th
2) Kenyon 9th
3) OWU 19th
4) John Carroll
D3soccer:
1) Kenyon 6th (Messiah, F&M, Brandeis, Trinity, Oneonta St, Kenyon, Calvin, Loras )
2) OWU 17th
3) Wabash 19th
Maybe this is true every year but it sure seems like we are going to have a wild and exciting NCAA tourney. First, we've got teams that have been ranked very, very high who may not even get a bid. Could get even crazier if teams like Calvin, Wheaton, Kenyon or OWU, etc don't win their AQs.
It would seem that some of the 1st and 2nd round games are going to be monsters. Some very good teams are not going to get in, and some very good teams that barely get in are going to draw top seeds early on yielding very few games that are going to be safe.
What do some of you think about where things stand with Emory, Rochester, Luther, Williams, etc.
The UAA is brutal this year. Usual bottom feeders NYU and Case have earned some good results and after a slow start CMU is acquitting itself well.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 13, 2014, 10:11:53 PM
What are some of the other best D3 soccer venues?
KnightFalcon, thanks for your other comment. I have really enjoyed learning more about all of the different colleges and their programs across the United States. I've actually learned a lot. I tend to have an East Coast bias, along with a New Englandish bias for the US News Top 50 lists, and so to learn about all of these other great places, where kids achieve at such a high level and then go on to do great things and where the alumni feel so passionately about their schools, is something I really appreciate. It's actually liberating to learn about all these other places where such wonderful things happen.
This has to be the best soccer venue in the country...it also has been drawing the most fans for decades...Shoemaker Field at Messiah (pictured this past weekend as rain cleared and sun came out).
Joining late after a busy weekend . . .
In the OWU loss to Otterbein: Bloecher did not play. One man does not a team make, but he's important. OWU has built chemistry throughout the year with many new starters - they are going in the right direction. I stand by my assertion that Kenyon's backs are big but not fleet of foot: I'll take a pacy forward against them any day (the one Capital goal was a penalty - the Cap forward split two defenders and was taken down). Kenyon's best defense actually comes from their top 6 - when they apply high pressure and keep their back 4 from being exposed.
To another comment about parity: in all the games I've seen here in Ohio the old saw that "on any given day . . ." is as true this year as in any previous. Some teams may be guilty of getting up for certain competitors, followed by flat performances in subsequent games in which you'd think they'd do well. Most scores in the NCAC and OAC are very close - very few blow-outs. Most deciding goals come from mistakes (same as it ever was I suppose) with games decided by one goal.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 19, 2014, 09:18:19 PM
Maybe this is true every year but it sure seems like we are going to have a wild and exciting NCAA tourney. First, we've got teams that have been ranked very, very high who may not even get a bid. Could get even crazier if teams like Calvin, Wheaton, Kenyon or OWU, etc don't win their AQs.
It would seem that some of the 1st and 2nd round games are going to be monsters. Some very good teams are not going to get in, and some very good teams that barely get in are going to draw top seeds early on yielding very few games that are going to be safe.
What do some of you think about where things stand with Emory, Rochester, Luther, Williams, etc.
The UAA is brutal this year. Usual bottom feeders NYU and Case have earned some good results and after a slow start CMU is acquitting itself well.
Emory still has Rochester and CMU on the schedule. If they (Emory) manage to finish 1-5-1 in the UAA, I can't see how they will get in. I think it is still too early but Brandeis and Chicago seem to be safe. NYU SOS not strong enough. UAA still should be getting 3 teams in... Emory, Rochester, and CMU will be battling for that last spot.
Williams and Rutgers-Camden are AQ or bust... Does a conference championship loss give them an extra look? NESCAC seems to have Amherst and Tufts already dialed in (AQ still wide open in both NESCAC and NJAC).
Luther should be okay in terms of being seeded high in the North, but like you mentioned... if Calvin, Wheaton, Kenyon, OWU, Trinity don't win, they will be on the outside looking in. The season finale vs Dubuque is VITAL (lost there in 2012 and 2010, but won at home in 2013 and 2011).
Usually in the top leagues like Nescac and NJAC if a team on the edge makes the tourney final and loses, they will get in as long as they are regionally ranked. I have numerous examples from Nescac if anyone is interested.
Domino, agreed that one loss and one game does not a season make. But that applies to all teams, no? Seems a lot of weight was given to Wabash having a poor showing at OWU (where many teams have had poor showings historically), and then, by extension, a lot of weight appears to be getting placed on Kenyon losing away to Wabash in an even game off of one play. Wabash, after all, was unbeaten and up to #15 or #16 just a week ago. No doubt OWU has been rounding into form and Kenyon after weeks at #2 has sputtered a bit. Certainly a huge and intriguing game tomorrow. And if they play again in a couple of weeks will be even bigger. Kenyon probably cares less about the NCAC title than OWU but they should care about playing themselves out of NCAA home games or even a NCAA spot.
Almost out of the blue the NCAC suddenly has gotten very interesting. Kenyon probably wouldn't relish heading back to Wabash. Wabash still has to play DePauw and it's not hard to imagine them dropping points in another game. And DePauw is now very much back in the thick of things. If you are OWU or Kenyon, would you rather draw Wabash or DePauw in a NCAC semi?
And although likely done in terms of a NCAC playoff berth, watch out for a prideful and still talented Oberlin squad embracing a spoiler role.
Quote from: Soccergeek on October 19, 2014, 04:00:28 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2014, 09:41:01 PM
I really think a case could be made for Calvin being as good an option for No. 2 as anyone. I think the D3soccer.com voters have underrated them because of the two early losses. This week would be a perfect opportunity for the voters to bump Calvin up to the middle of the Top 10 given the teams above them that have tied and/or lost this week, but somehow I think No. 8 would be as far as they'll jump from their current No. 12.
I have to agree with you, Flying Weasel. I have seen a number of the top teams in the Midwest play this season, including Wheaton, Chicago, Elmhurst, OWU and Hope, and Calvin is clearly the cream of the crop. Their only two losses came in the first week of the season to Wheaton on the road (the one-goal difference coming on questionable PK call) and home to North Central, whom they dominated (24-8 shots, 8-0 corner kicks). They also have a win over OWU in a game they dominated and are led by an All American forward who is rumored to be getting strong looks from a number of MLS teams. The Knights are riding a 12-game winning streak, but have clearly been underrated all season. They are poised to make a deep run in the tournament come November.
I too have been fortunate enough to see these quality teams compete this year and, call me crazy, but I can see Hope and Calvin making deep runs into this years tournament, just like 2011. Calvin has taken both conference games, but it's very difficult to beat a team 3 times in a season, especially a hungry side like Hope. I can see Hope snagging the AQ in the tournament and Calvin taking an at-large.
Quote from: MIAA22 on October 20, 2014, 12:03:37 PM
I too have been fortunate enough to see these quality teams compete this year and, call me crazy, but I can see Hope and Calvin making deep runs into this years tournament, just like 2011. Calvin has taken both conference games, but it's very difficult to beat a team 3 times in a season, especially a hungry side like Hope. I can see Hope snagging the AQ in the tournament and Calvin taking an at-large.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Calvin is clearly at another level compared with the rest of the MIAA, including Hope. On top of that, if Hope reaches the championship game, it will be played on Calvin's natural grass field (where Hope lost 4-1 a few weeks ago in a game in which Calvin played a large portion of the second half down a man). The Flying Dutchmen should be more concerned with fighting off Kalamazoo and Olivet for the conference's second position, thereby guaranteeing a first round home game.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2014, 10:10:46 AM
Emory still has Rochester and CMU on the schedule. If they (Emory) manage to finish 1-5-1 in the UAA, I can't see how they will get in. I think it is still too early but Brandeis and Chicago seem to be safe. NYU SOS not strong enough. UAA still should be getting 3 teams in... Emory, Rochester, and CMU will be battling for that last spot.
Those three teams you mentioned at the end (hypothetically) battling for one spot presents an intriguing situation.
Doubt Emory would get in with a 1-5-1 UAA record, especially considering their SOS. Then again, they are currently 11-3-1, with all of their losses coming to UAA teams. If they can win two of their last three, I think they'll be in good shape.
CMU has only played two ranked teams so far this season, and lost both (home to Kenyon and 2OT away to Brandeis.) A win/draw against Brandeis would have helped them quite a bit. Didn't start the season well, but they seem to have responded to losing their first two games—their win at NYU was impressive.
Rochester has a big win against Brandeis on its resume, and arguably the win over SLU and tie against Oneonta State, but four losses and three ties seem to be too much to overcome at this point. Then again, the Brandeis women got into the 2012 tournament with a 13-4-2, but that's a win percentage of .736 as opposed to Rochester's current win percentage of .576 (albeit having played more games.) Yet, even if Rochester were to win out and finish 10-4-3, they'd be at .676.
Conclusively, I believe that (at this point) Rochester is the least likely of the three teams to get an at-large bid. For me, they have to win out—and that includes winning at Emory, which I think is a big ask, especially considering Emory is reeling from their three straight losses. Regardless, the last three games in the UAA schedule are looking very exciting.
Region WP (Region SOS) SSF Record vs Ranked
Emory .750 10-3-1 *27 (.605) 23 1-2-0 (W: RU-N... L: Brandeis, Chicago) 1-3 if NYU gets ranked.
CMU .654 8-4-1 *29 (.590) 22 0-2-1 (L: Kenyon, Brandeis... T: Chicago) 1-2-1 if NYU gets ranked.
Rochester .577 6-4-3 *17 (.650) 11 2-1-1 (W: Brandeis, SLU.. L: Chicago.. T: Oneonta St) 2-2-1 if NYU
Case Western .636 6-3-2 * 22 (.614) 14 0-2-1 (L: John Carrol, Brandeis... T: Chicago) 1-2-1 if NYU ranked.
*Massey SOS
Rochester great W's vs Brandeis and SLU offset the losses to Morrisville St and Lycoming (both with high OWP, weaker OOWP). I would have their resume ahead of Emory and CMU at this point. Luckily, there will be a round robin; CMU with the advantage of playing them both at home. IF Rochester can manage a split on the road (@ Emory / @ CMU), they would control their own destiny vs Case Western at home.
You can't count out Case Western either as they also play Emory, CMU, Rochester!
Rochester @ Kean is a big matchup for both schools fighting for position within their respective regions.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2014, 01:45:00 PM
Rochester @ Kean is a big matchup for both schools fighting for position within their respective regions.
Agreed. Kean's 10-5-1 isn't superb, but they are coming off of a win at Rutgers-Newark and are 7-1 at home. Conversely, Rochester is 1-2-1 on the road.
Quote from: Soccergeek on October 20, 2014, 12:44:06 PM
Quote from: MIAA22 on October 20, 2014, 12:03:37 PM
I too have been fortunate enough to see these quality teams compete this year and, call me crazy, but I can see Hope and Calvin making deep runs into this years tournament, just like 2011. Calvin has taken both conference games, but it's very difficult to beat a team 3 times in a season, especially a hungry side like Hope. I can see Hope snagging the AQ in the tournament and Calvin taking an at-large.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Calvin is clearly at another level compared with the rest of the MIAA, including Hope. On top of that, if Hope reaches the championship game, it will be played on Calvin's natural grass field (where Hope lost 4-1 a few weeks ago in a game in which Calvin played a large portion of the second half down a man). The Flying Dutchmen should be more concerned with fighting off Kalamazoo and Olivet for the conference's second position, thereby guaranteeing a first round home game.
Soccer geek - good points. It does seem like Calvin is at another level compared to the rest of the MIAA, but all you have to is go back to last season when Hope beat Calvin (in PKs) on Calvin's grass surface to take the AQ spot and leave Calvin at home come tournament time.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on October 20, 2014, 09:37:55 PM
Quote from: Soccergeek on October 20, 2014, 12:44:06 PM
Quote from: MIAA22 on October 20, 2014, 12:03:37 PM
I too have been fortunate enough to see these quality teams compete this year and, call me crazy, but I can see Hope and Calvin making deep runs into this years tournament, just like 2011. Calvin has taken both conference games, but it's very difficult to beat a team 3 times in a season, especially a hungry side like Hope. I can see Hope snagging the AQ in the tournament and Calvin taking an at-large.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Calvin is clearly at another level compared with the rest of the MIAA, including Hope. On top of that, if Hope reaches the championship game, it will be played on Calvin's natural grass field (where Hope lost 4-1 a few weeks ago in a game in which Calvin played a large portion of the second half down a man). The Flying Dutchmen should be more concerned with fighting off Kalamazoo and Olivet for the conference's second position, thereby guaranteeing a first round home game.
Soccer geek - good points. It does seem like Calvin is at another level compared to the rest of the MIAA, but all you have to is go back to last season when Hope beat Calvin (in PKs) on Calvin's grass surface to take the AQ spot and leave Calvin at home come tournament time.
Last year was last year, KnightFalcon. Calvin is a better squad this year (particularly in net), and Hope is not as strong as a year ago. One only needs to look at their recent loss at home to Kalamazoo, a game in which the Hornets were the better team. Of course, upsets do happen (that's why they play the games), but my crystal ball says Calvin rides into the NCAA tournament on a 18-game win streak.
I was surprised by the responses to the latest D3soccer.com "Readers Poll" concerning who should be ranked #1 and #2, and just curious if posters here have any insight into the high percentage (33%) of votes for "Other". A vote for "Other" basically means that one either (a) doesn't think that Messiah should be in the top 2 or (b) thinks that at least one of the top 2 does not come from the group of Messiah, Kenyon, F&M, Trinity, Oneonta St., Brandeis, and Calvin. Never anticipated a third of respondents thinking that. It's a head-scratcher for me. Maybe "1. F&M, 2. Trinity" and/or "1. F&M, 2. Brandies" should have been an option? Any ideas what the thinking is? Do you guys think the rankings are that far off that?
NSCAA Top 10 Prediction:
1) Messiah
2) Brandeis
3) Trinity
4) Oneonta St
5) F&M
6) Kenyon
7) Calvin
8) Loras
9) CNU
10) St. Lawrence
Christan,
I would think either combination of Brandeis/F&M, Brandeis/Kenyon, Messiah/Wheaton, Messiah/Loras.
My vote at this time remains 1) Messiah 2) Brandeis.
Based on Mr.Right's eye test I voted :
1. Messiah
2. Trinity(TX)
After watching all the top teams play I just do not think Kenyon, F&M or Brandeis are #2 in the nation. All 3 of those teams can be broken down and have holes in their line-ups to attack.
Christan, I think you got it right. Doesn't make sense why 30% voted Other.
Mr.Right, what is your sample size with F&M and Kenyon.
For me, a poll isn't always about who we think is the best, but who is most deserving of the spots at this time. I personally doubt F&M will end up at #2 (or #1) in the end, but to this point, beginning with a monster opening weekend and meeting every challenge with a tough schedule since then, they have earned a very high ranking. Same with Brandeis, Trinity, Oneonta.
Let's take Brandeis. My guess is that everyone thought they would be very good this year, but if you looked at their schedule preseason and suggested they would be 14-1 right now I think most of us would think that highly unlikely. Regardless of how their season ends, to this point you can't argue about them having a very, very high ranking. And I am one who thinks Brandeis has a very good chance to advance to the Elite 8/Final 4. And Savoven should be getting some consideration for All-American. Brandeis has a large senior group and I think that will mean something in 2-3 weeks.
Ignoring the "Other" votes, here's how the ranking would look based on respondents collective votes.
Reader's Pool Results to date
1. Messiah
2. F&M - 2(15) + 35 = 65
3. Brandies - 2(9) + 28 = 46
4. Trinity - 2(8) + 15 = 31
5. Kenyon - 2(4) + 18 = 26
6. Calvin - 0 + 15 = 15
7. Oneonta St. - 2(5) + 4 = 14
D3soccer.com Top 25
1. Messiah
2. F&M
3. Trinity
4. Oneonta St.
5. Brandeis
6. Kenyon
7. Calvin
I have seen both F&M and Kenyon twice and have not been overly impressed but I will give Kenyon another shot today as I plan on watching at 3pm.
Final Score: Kenyon 0 Ohio Wesleyan 0
Very even game in my opinion. No team strung a lot of passes together. Both defenses performed admirably. OWU hit the post in the first half, but overall I'd say Kenyon had a couple better chances. One of the Kenyon defenders (Sam Justice I believe) made an amazing slide tackle to prevent a Colton Bloecher shot late in the game that I thought was gonna go in.
What does this mean? OWU is in the drivers seat to win their 7th straight NCAC regular season championship. If they win out, they will do it outright. They have home matches against Oberlin and Denison with a trip to Hiram to end the season. They can even afford to tie one of those and win the other 2 and still win it outright (assuming Kenyon and Wabash win out)...Wabash still has a tough rivalry game against DePauw left on the schedule as well.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out but my guess for how it will end: 1.) OWU 2.) Kenyon 3.) DePauw 4.) Wabash.
I think Kenyon is gonna make some noise in the NCAA's again this year. Very early to speculate as the NCAA Regional rankings haven't come out yet but I'm curious how many NCAC teams will make it to the NCAA tournament. I could see as many as 3 but honestly I could see only one doing it as well.
Mostly agree with you Midwest. Bottom line is Kenyon will be disappointed (but at least didn't lose) and OWU will be happy with the tie since as you say they are now basically a lock to win the regular season NCAC title (as they are done with the toughest part of their schedule). And of course that will give OWU home field for the tournament. Kenyon will be thinking about the impact of the Wabash loss.
I thought Kenyon outplayed OWU for long stretches of the game but couldn't produce a lot of quality around and inside the 18, and then again it would not have been surprising at all to see OWU get one on one of their counters. Bloecher and Schaefer are both very good players, but overall I do think Kenyon is more talented this year. Justice was phenomenal. If Kenyon can find their offensive finishing again in the next 3 weeks I think they will be a formidable opponent. It was hard to tell on video if Amolo should have been awarded a PK on the play right on or just inside the 18 and I wondered if the GK deserved red there. Also heard that Justice got pulled down in the box when he would have had a clear header chance off a corner late. Kenyon gave up some bad fouls as well that allowed Bloecher a few free kick chances.
I can't see a scenario where the NCAC doesn't get at least 2 bids and 3 is possible. A real wild card, and this may be the biggest deal about not winning the league, is DePauw. I think they will beat Wabash (although I'm not sure why many of us are still doubting Wabash). DePauw is capable of winning the AQ and they have done so before and on the road. I think they got the AQ the year OWU won the national title or perhaps I am off by a year.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 21, 2014, 06:45:22 PM
A real wild card, and this may be the biggest deal about not winning the league, is DePauw. I think they will beat Wabash (although I'm not sure why many of us are still doubting Wabash).
Even as an unrepentant Wabash fan, I can understand why you may harbor some doubt still as the team hasn't been very competitive in recent years. Having seen both DePauw and Wabash play live multiple times this season, I think it will be a very competitive match and that the Little Giants get the Tigers this year, especially since it is being played in Crawfordsville.
If it turns out to be OWU, Kenyon, Wabash and DePauw in the NCAC tournament, I think OWU and Kenyon get into the NCAA tournament by reaching the finals of the NCAC tournament. Kenyon probably makes the NCAA tournament even with a first round loss in the NCAC tournament, while I think a loss in the first round by OWU in the NCAC tournament places it squarely on the bubble.
I am not sure DePauw makes the NCAA tournament unless it gets the AQ given its losses to Ohio Northern and Franklin. Wabash may have a shot at a third slot for the conference, no matter how it does in the conference tournament, if they win 3 of their remaining 4 regular season matches.
Maybe Wabash is pretty good. Scored twice in first 6 minutes away at Wittenberg (and Witt is improved this year).
Agree wabash83. DePauw's only chance is to win the AQ, but that wouldn't shock me. And we might as well send the COY plaque to the Wabash coach right now. He definitely has them pumped up and believing. If they win out they are probably going to get a return home game with Kenyon. And it's very conceivable that Kenyon will need that game which seems almost unthinkable after being ranked #2 for 6 or so weeks. Wabash is this year's Oberlin. The question in terms of 3 bids is that there is one less bid to go around nationally.
Hope loses again, this time to Albion.
Midd down 1-0 at the half to Castleton State.
Quote from: Soccergeek on October 20, 2014, 10:48:41 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on October 20, 2014, 09:37:55 PM
Quote from: Soccergeek on October 20, 2014, 12:44:06 PM
Quote from: MIAA22 on October 20, 2014, 12:03:37 PM
I too have been fortunate enough to see these quality teams compete this year and, call me crazy, but I can see Hope and Calvin making deep runs into this years tournament, just like 2011. Calvin has taken both conference games, but it's very difficult to beat a team 3 times in a season, especially a hungry side like Hope. I can see Hope snagging the AQ in the tournament and Calvin taking an at-large.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Calvin is clearly at another level compared with the rest of the MIAA, including Hope. On top of that, if Hope reaches the championship game, it will be played on Calvin's natural grass field (where Hope lost 4-1 a few weeks ago in a game in which Calvin played a large portion of the second half down a man). The Flying Dutchmen should be more concerned with fighting off Kalamazoo and Olivet for the conference's second position, thereby guaranteeing a first round home game.
Soccer geek - good points. It does seem like Calvin is at another level compared to the rest of the MIAA, but all you have to is go back to last season when Hope beat Calvin (in PKs) on Calvin's grass surface to take the AQ spot and leave Calvin at home come tournament time.
Last year was last year, KnightFalcon. Calvin is a better squad this year (particularly in net), and Hope is not as strong as a year ago. One only needs to look at their recent loss at home to Kalamazoo, a game in which the Hornets were the better team. Of course, upsets do happen (that's why they play the games), but my crystal ball says Calvin rides into the NCAA tournament on a 18-game win streak.
Soccergeek I actually agree that Calvin is a better team this year and Hope certainly seems weaker. I think Souders is doing a great job coaching Calvin as well ... I hope they don't lose him to his alma mater. That said, it's always tough to beat a team 3 times in one season, especially a rival. But I still would give Calvin a decided edge this year and expect them to win the conference tournament in a couple of weeks and the AQ spot that comes with it. Depending on their draw, they could make a deep run in the NCAA too.
Calvin beats Adrian 6-0. That, combined with Hope's loss, gives Calvin their 8th straight conference title with 3 games to play.
Rutgers-Newark vs Stevens canceled due to lightning...
Looks like the high of beating Kenyon was enough for Wabash tonight. Scored twice basically coming off the bus and then held off Wittenberg for 84 minutes to get a 2-1 win.
I'd agree that Kenyon was the more dangerous team today. That being said still wouldn't have surprised me to see OWU take all 3 points. I too was wondering about the Amolo play with the OWU GK. Fortunate for OWU to be outside the box and only a yellow to the GK.
I completely agree with you about DePauw being the wildcard. They are VERY dangerous and I could see them getting the 4 seed and winning both on the road to go to the tournament. I think they are going to beat Wabash and take the 3 seed and head to Gambier.
Thoughts from watching Kenyon-OWU live:
Two refereeing decisions had an impact. First, the ref nailed the OWU GK takedown. The foul was over a yard outside the box. Also, there were 2 OWU defenders closer to the goal than the GK, which is why I think he showed yellow. He probably could have shown red, but seemed reluctant to send players off. That leads into the second point, which is that Kenyon's #10 (Barnes) was extremely lucky to avoid a second yellow. The ref had been flashing them, and he already had one when he slid very late into an OWU player. If he wasn't on a yellow he would have gotten one right away. At the end of the day, better to let both teams play full if it's not clear-cut, so no real complaints. The ref also let them play physical, which favored Kenyon, but he was consistent with it.
Kenyon controlled most of the game from a territorial perspective. As usual, they pressed hard the first 20 minutes. OWU switched from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3, which gave them better defensive shape, but left only one forward on Kenyon's center backs. I thought they were exceptional, they handled Bloecher very well. That being said, Kenyon didn't have much of an end product. They had a ton of corners and long throws, but they didn't seem likely to score from open play. Amolo runs the channels, but he rarely had more than 1-2 guys to look for. Kenyon did get numbers forward on set pieces, and I felt if they were going to score it would be on a scrappy goal from pumping the ball into the box.
OWU had issues stringing passes together. The change in formation didn't help, and they seemed underwater. The few times they did play combinations they looked dangerous. Kenyon played a definite role there - OWU likes to play through the middle and their center backs completely that shut down. The positive is OWU has five straight shutouts and the back four was outstanding. They have to feel confident because a rematch will (probably) be at home and OWU's best non-D players won't all have another off-day.
Overall, fair result. Neither team deserved to lose, but neither really did enough to win.
Agree with your final conclusion about a fair result. Also agree that ref showed restraint on that Barnes play and could have given a 2nd yellow. However, conceding that the GK play was outside the box I'm not sure about 2 more defenders. Not 100% positive, but seemed there was no doubt Amolo would have scored there. Kenyon also got a yellow on a call in the box for flopping on a player who would be one of the last players on the team anyone would imagine flopping. Amolo got called for couple of shaky fouls when he had the ball right at top of the box.
Kenyon's offense is an issue, especially combining and finishing in final 3rd, and given the size they bring up for corners and set plays, and the number of corners and deep throws, they should have created better chances. Kenyon when controlling play tends to get a little stretched and I thought some of OWU's best chances came on the counter when they were able to get into space and get into more of their usual trademark combination play in and around the box.
As regards a possible rematch, I would expect the offense of both teams to play better. And Kenyon certainly is very familiar with Roy Rike field and in some ways might enjoy a win there even more.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on October 22, 2014, 10:32:37 AMKenyon played a definite role there - OWU likes to play through the middle and their center backs completely that shut down.
That sounds like Kenyon. Against Messiah in last year's Sweet 16 match, Kenyon really crowded and clogged the middle in their defensive half of the field (not just a centerback thing, but the entire team), forcing Messiah to advance the ball upfield mainly out wide. And while Messiah has very good wingers (some of the best in D-III), it made their attacks much more predictable and thereby easier to defend. When there's space to attack up the middle, the defense has so much more to worry about as the player with the ball could slot the ball forward or lay it off left or right, or spray it out to either wing to quickly and unpredictably change the point of attack. Forcing the play out wide meant the point of attack couldn't be changed as quickly or easily, thereby making it easier for defenders to track players and get their positioning right. It certainly was effective as they (Kenyon) execute it very well.
On the regional data sheets that just came out. Is the SOS for the teams whole season? Or just the games they have played so far?
Quote from: Durantula on October 22, 2014, 02:37:39 PM
On the regional data sheets that just came out. Is the SOS for the teams whole season? Or just the games they have played so far?
In both football and basketball, SOS is only for games already played. I would assume soccer is the same.
The all-important NCAA Regional Rankings have been released. Check them out here:
http://d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/Men/regional-rankings-1
If you're not sure what the significance of these rankings is or how they work, read this article:
http://d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/about
Quote from: Durantula on October 22, 2014, 02:37:39 PM
On the regional data sheets that just came out. Is the SOS for the teams whole season? Or just the games they have played so far?
Yes, the SOS only includes opponents and games to date. To see how the SOS is calculated, scroll down to the
Strength of Schedule section in this article: http://d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/about
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2014, 08:41:32 PM
101-3-5 the last 4.5 years. Yeah, I'd agree.
Because of OWP/OOWP... Centennial should dominate the NCAA Rankings:
1) Messiah
2) F&M
3) Dickinson
4) Haverford
5) Muhlenberg
6) JHU
7) Eastern
8) Swat
---------------------
9) Miseri
10) Lycoming
What are your thoughts, FW
Not too far off on the mid-atlantic... Had the Fords held on vs the Mules...
Also, very shocked to see Coast Guard come in at #2 in the NE Region and Luther as well in the North...
Little Giants completely absent from these rankings. Is this a product of the first rankings having incomplete data (specifically results against ranked teams) or is this a result of Wabash getting hammered for their schedule? I can understand not being in the top 2 or 3 of the rankings, but to be absent entirely? Seems like a clerical error.
To whit, if the primary criteria are this (and they are):
•Win-loss percentage against Division III opponents
•Division III head-to-head competition
•Results versus common Division III opponents
•Results versus ranked Division III teams)
•Division III Strength-of-schedule
How can the GL RAC rank DePauw and not rank Wabash given Wabash's advantages in:
•Win-loss percentage against Division III opponents - .643 to .857 (massive advantage for Wabash)
•Division III head-to-head competition (TBD 10/29)
•Results versus common Division III opponents (Wabash wins vs. RHIT, Kenyon compared to DePauw's losses to those teams; Wabash has a draw with Franklin who DePauw lost to, DePauw beat Hanover who drew with Wabash)
•Results versus ranked Division III teams (apparently this wasn't counted this time around?)
•Division III Strength-of-schedule (0.567 DePauw, 0.489 Wabash- heavy advantage DePauw)
DPU has one advantage here. I don't know how this adds up to DePauw being ranked 6th and Wabash being out entirely. Would love to hear from folks who follow the soccer scene closer than I do, but on the surface this looks like a massive, massive whiff from the GL RAC.
FW or Christan,
Does the SOS have to be over .500 or was that modified?
SOS is massively important to the committee. A sub .500 SOS is a huge strike against a team. (Several years ago, the committee temporary instituted a policy whereby any team with a sub .500 SOS was ineligible to be ranked and thereby ineligible to be selected for an at-large berth. However, after the first and second regional rankings that year, they reversed course, probably due to the outcry as high-profil nationally ranked teams Dominican and Swarthmore, among others, were being excluded as a result.)
While the committee was still considering who to rank, there was no ranking to serve as basis for a record vs. ranked. So until you've had an initial ranking, this criteria can not exist. This will show up in the second and third rankings and be used for the final "secret" rankings that are used for making at-large selections. Wabash's win over Kenyon will help them next week. Record vs. ranked also seems to be very important to the committee.
Wabash is probably going to need some more wins over ranked teams to ovecome their low SOS. And even then they would probably still be on the bubble. Next week will give us a better feel once the record vs. ranked comes into play.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 22, 2014, 04:33:19 PM
FW or Christan,
Does the SOS have to be over .500 or was that modified?
As I mentioned in my previous response, that policy was scrapped after two weeks of rankings, and as far as I can tell, never introduced again. It was always a bit odd and fishy given it was not coming from the governing Championship Manual, so I'm not sure what their basis for thinking they could apply such a criteria was.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 22, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
SOS is massively important to the committee. A sub .500 SOS is a huge strike against a team. (Several years ago, the committee temporary instituted a policy whereby any team with a sub .500 SOS was ineligible to be ranked and thereby ineligible to be selected for an at-large berth. However, after the first and second regional rankings that year, they reversed course, probably due to the outcry as high-profil nationally ranked teams Dominican and Swarthmore, among others, were being excluded as a result.)
While the committee was still considering who to rank, there was no ranking to serve as basis for a record vs. ranked. So until you've had an initial ranking, this criteria can not exist. This will show up in the second and third rankings and be used for the final "secret" rankings that are used for making at-large selections. Wabash's win over Kenyon will help them next week. Record vs. ranked also seems to be very important to the committee.
Wabash is probably going to need some more wins over ranked teams to ovecome their low SOS. And even then they would probably still be on the bubble. Next week will give us a better feel once the record vs. ranked comes into play.
Thanks for the insight, Christan. I can understand why a committee would look at a team with a good W/L record and a poor SOS (.500 seems to be the arbitrary cutoff for good vs. bad SOS) and have concerns about the quality of the team in the absence of any quality wins. But when that team does something like, say just hypothetically,
beat the best team in the region, then that ought to offer some validation of their quality and of their record, SOS aside. And the SOS differences still do not completely justify dismissal of the common opponent results between Wabash and DePauw; those are about as apples-to-apples a comparison as we can make between two teams that haven't played each other yet.
I'll spare you my rant about the NCAA's SOS metric, which I've made many times during the other football season (the one where you can and should use your hands), but we'll just say that it's not a particularly good measure of "strength" (made even less "good" by the silly and arbitrary home/away multiplier).
But it is what it is. Hopefully next Wednesday when the RAC can consider more data (like RRO results), Wabash will get their due. And then immediately afterward, they can go beat DePauw by 15 at Mud Hollow. :)
The combination of the simplicity of the SOS formula that is used and the seeming heavy weight the committee places on SOS, results in inaccurate assessment and ranking of teams at times, IMO. I am all for considering strength of schedule, but I prefer it to be done with critical analysis and judgment not an overly-simplistic formula. But if you are going to rely (an heavily at that) on an SOS formula, you really should have something more sophisticated than what they have. I'm not a fan of the Masey or Bennett rankings either, as they so often don't pass my smell test, but their SOS would probably be a better option combined with lowering how much weight you place on it.
While I'm disappointed that Wabash didn't make the first Regional Ranking with a .857 winning pct. and the Kenyon win, I am not surprised given its .489 SOS. I think Wabash along with Rose-Hulman (.700 winning pct. and .515 SOS), Thomas More (.821 winning pct. and .498 SOS) and Penn St.-Behrend (.813 winning pct. & .496 SOS) are all in the hunt for a spot in future rankings depending how the rest of the season goes.
Personally, I would like to see Rose-Hulman work its way back into the ranking so that Wabash would have a chance at 2 wins over regionally ranked opponents (I suspect DePauw will drop out after Wabash beats them on 10/29 :))
The DePauw game is huge for Wabash and probably not as much for DePauw. If Wabash doesn't win that one, and then doesn't get to at the least the final of the NCAC tourney, they are probably out. DePauw, ironically, can be a little more free-wheeling because they can only get a bid most likely by winning the AQ. I think that's going to be a tough game for Wabash with a dynamic similar to what Kenyon just had with OWU. Sometimes not being the favorite is helpful.
All that said, I'll be honest and say I was shocked Wabash wasn't ranked regionally.
Centre just went up 2-1 on DePauw with under 20 to go. Centre appears to be dominating shots.
Centre beats DePauw 2-1. Stats say Centre outshot DPU 21 to 5. Not really understanding that.
Denison actually is 4-2 in the conference along with DePauw, so if DePauw isn't careful they could miss out on a playoff spot entirely and therefore they indeed may be under pressure when they the Little Giants.
Jack Thompson sets the all-time assist mark at Messiah vs Hood. Jeremy Payne ties Dave Brandt with 55 goals, good for 6th all time.
And don't look now, but PSU-Harrisburg win over Frostburg St pretttty much ends York's season. Frostburg St sits in 6th place in the CAC with Southern Virginia and Marymount left. York sits in 7th with Salisbury and St. Marys remaining.
Will there be a post-season rematch between York and Rutgers-Camden (3rd in the last 4 years), this time in the ECAC?
At one point Dave Brandt was a coaching genius. It was an excellent move to Navy financially and certainly for a new challenge. As he quickly realized you can have all the knowledge in the world and tactical acumen but without players you cannot win in any league in the world. He is a great coach and a legend at Messiah for turning the program into a D3 powerhouse. The one negative I hear is his failure to delegate the most simple of tasks to his assistants. An example being when he goes on the road to scout an opponent or maybe see a kid play he would rather cancel practice altogether than allow any of assistants to run practice.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 23, 2014, 10:07:40 AM
Jack Thompson sets the all-time assist mark at Messiah vs Hood. Jeremy Payne ties Dave Brandt with 55 goals, good for 6th all time.
55 goals....really I had to read that twice...amazing and congratulations.
Dave Brandt IS a coaching genius. What he has done at Navy has only continued his legacy of achievement. He has taken a mediocre team to the top of a competitive league. Last year Navy went to the second round of the tournament losing narrowly to perennial power house Wake Forest. He did this while navigating the obvious recruiting challenges.... High entrance requirements and required military service. Moreover, look at what his assistant coaches have done. McCarty has been smart enough to not break what Brandt built. Derek Potteiger has taken a Gordon program that was in the dumps and gone 32-6 in less than two seasons playing almost entirely freshmen and sophomores.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 23, 2014, 10:20:48 AM
At one point Dave Brandt was a coaching genius. It was an excellent move to Navy financially and certainly for a new challenge. As he quickly realized you can have all the knowledge in the world and tactical acumen but without players you cannot win in any league in the world. He is a great coach and a legend at Messiah for turning the program into a D3 powerhouse. The one negative I hear is his failure to delegate the most simple of tasks to his assistants. An example being when he goes on the road to scout an opponent or maybe see a kid play he would rather cancel practice altogether than allow any of assistants to run practice.
Boy, where did these comments come from? Someone mentions a current Messiah player matching Brandt's goal total as a Messiah
player, and you make an assessment of his
coaching style and ability. Odd. And I should probably simply ignore the non sequitur, but here goes anyways.
I'm sure Brandt knew well before moving to Navy that without the right players (skill/ability, tactical IQ, and attitude) you can't win regardless of the coach's knowledge, tactics, etc. I'm sure that's not a realization he only came to after some time on the job in Annapolis.
Saying he "was" a coaching genius suggests he isn't anymore. Did he get "dumber" at Navy? Forgetting the genious label, I'm sure he is every bit as astute a coach today as in his Messiah days, if not more so with the additional experience. Everyone is entitlted to their assessment of the job he's done at Navy, but given the recruiting challenges that come with an "institution" like Navy added to the elevated difficulty of breaking into the upper echelons of Division I soccer with it's established heavyweights and power conferences, expectations were never that he would transform Navy into a Top 25 team overnight nor that Navy would ever become a preennial title contender. So success or failure shouldn't be measured against unrealistic expectations, some absolute standards, or what he accomplished in D-III at Messiah, but rather contextually. I don't know Dave Brandt, never really met him or spoke with him, and I can't speak to his coaching style and any micro-managing issues and whatnot. And he certainly doesn't need anyone to defend him as his record can speak for itself. That record at Navy, so others can make their own asessment, is as follows:
Overall2002-2008 (7 yrs. prior to arrival): six losing seasons, one winning season, 37-64-17 (.386)
2009-present (5-1/2 years since arrival): three* winning seasons, two .500 seasons, one losing season (2009), 54-38-16 (.574)
(* - assumes 2014 will be winning season)Conference2002-2008 (7 years prior): no conference playoff appearance
2009-present (5-1/2 years): made conference playoff in 2009 (third season), 2013 and will again in 2014
Prior to arrival: ● 7 years without a conference tournament appearance (last in 2001)
● 9 years without a conference tournament win (last in 1999)
● 20 years without a 1st-place finish (regular season) in conference (last in 1988)
● never conference champions via conference tournament (since 1990, the CAA's first year with a post-season tournament, Navy moved to Patriot League in 1991)
Since arrival: ● Made conference tournament in 2011 (third season), ending 9-year drought
● Won conference tournament game in 2013 (fifth season), ending 13-year drought
● Finished in 1st-place (regular season) in 2013 (fifth season), ending 24-year drought
● Won first-ever conference championship via tournament in 2013 (fifth season), ending 23-year drought
NCAA TournamentPrior to arrival: ● 20 years without NCAA tournament appearance (last in 1988)
● 38 years without NCAA tournament win (last in 1970)
Since arrival: ● Tournament appearance in 2013 (5th year in charge), ending 24-year droughts
● Tournament win in 2013 (5th year in charge), ending 42-year drought
If looking back five years from now, 2013 proves to be a one-off success, there maybe reason to give Brandt less than full marks for the job he's done at Navy, but at this point in time that seems to be a pretty good start and turn-around that he's managed at Navy.
Now let's get back to D-III discussions, can we?
+k. Well researched. Well written. Interesting. Outstanding post. I have no connection to Messiah, Navy and only a limited interest in D3 soccer, but I thoroughly enjoyed that post.
The dream of everyone on this board is to win NCAA championships and one day watch your son win one.
Nuff said.
Brandt is a genius.
P.S not connected to Messiah at all, actually played them in the Tourney way back... but game recognize game, as the poet once said.
The Weekend Ahead
Friday
Birmingham-Southern @ Centre -- These two, along with Rhodes and Millsaps are battling for the top spot in the conference and positioning to get their first AQ. Centre is coming off a big result and went 1-1-1 with OWU, Kenyon and DePauw. Centre needs to finish strong, and sometimes they seem flat after a big non-conference affair when they return to league play.
Saturday
In the NCAC Hiram is at Kenyon, Oberlin is at OWU, and Wabash is at Denison. Kenyon needs a convincing win (and some goals), but Hiram is pretty good. I would not be shocked if Oberlin pulled out a result against OWU, although would have been more likely at home. Oberlin has had a disappointing season, but they still have most of the squad they had last year with some good talent and nothing would console them more than getting a result against OWU and/or Kenyon. Don't look now but Denison is 28 seconds away form being a 1 loss NCAC team and at 4-2 are still very much alive for a playoff spot. Another good challenge for Wabash, and a tricky one as the critical rivalry clash with DePauw looms.
In the NESCAC, Wesleyan at Midd was already huge and now probably bigger with Wesleyan losing a stunner at home to Trinity (who we should remember also handed Wheaton MA a loss). Bowdoin is hanging on to some hope but Colby will be thinking Bowdoin is a good chance to get another result at home. Surprisingly, Williams at Bates may be the most intriguing. For some reason, I think Williams could be in some trouble in this one. Bates has been playing well and given all the tough times there nothing would feel better than sending the proud Williams side back home with a loss.
In the NEWMAC the top four are all playing each other. Wheaton travels to Coast Guard. Good chance for Wheaton to prove they are the class of the league and still a candidate for a good NCAA run, and Coast Guard gets a great opportunity to prove they better than some think. WPI is at Babson. WPI needs a strong win, and Babson can get a step closer to a bid with another solid victory.
In the OAC, frontrunner John Carroll is at closely challenging Capital. Ohio Northern has climbed into 3rd place and will still be a worry in the OAC tourney if John Carroll stumbles out of the at large picture.
In the Liberty, RPI is at Vassar and SLU travels to Skidmore. These matchups could be a preview of the Liberty semis.
The Centennial features Haverford at F&M and Muhlenberg at Hopkins. Haverford has been a little up and downs but with some big wins should be confident, while F&M impressively keeps taking care of business. Wagner, the F&M coach (yeah, another Messiah guy) has got to be a strong candidate for national coach of the year. Muhlenberg wants to keep pace near the top with F&M and Dickinson, but Hopkins away won't be easy.
The IIAC showdown with Wartburg at Loras in the Rock Bowl is must see video streaming. Put the kids to bed, send the spouse out with her friends, plug your computer into your Smart TV, go full screen, and enjoy. 8:30 EST.
The NJAC treats us to the Rutgers derby...Newark at Camden. For me this one is too close to call, as Rutgers-Camden seems to be getting primed for a run in the NJAC playoffs.
I can't figure out the MIAC except that St Olaf clearly is in the driver's seat and GAC is teetering on the bubble with Carleton trying to climb back into relevance. St Olaf is at St Thomas and GAC travels to Augsburg.
And in a pair of notable non-conference clashes that may impact bids, Rochester travels to Kean, and Chicago makes their way to UW-Whitewater.
Sunday
With the UAA not playing Sunday looks even lighter than usual.
ECSU at Babson could be tough for Babson the day after a big match with WPI.
Millsaps at Centre is another key SAA tilt.
Finally, University of Dallas is at Trinity (TX). Trinity's only loss was very early to Texas-Dallas. Can the other Dallas squad pull an upset? I don't think Tony Romo is walking through that door.
Couple of decent games in the CAC: York may be down but they get Salisbury at home and the Gulls have struggled a bit to find the net. PSU-Harrisburg gets a chance to show if it's legit when it hosts CNU.
Going to Cap-JCU at 2 and OWU at 8. Couple HS district finals that I just might have to stop in and see.
Cap lost at home to JCU last year 2-1; missed a late penalty that would have tied it. Senior Day at Cap (only three seniors on the team - two that normally start).
There hasn't been any more rain in Central Ohio but grass fields still provide for loose footing (shame for the Kenyon-OWU game): the OWU game could see more slipping and sliding.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 23, 2014, 05:23:59 PM
The dream of everyone on this board is to win NCAA championships and one day watch your son win one.
Nuff said.
Brandt is a genius.
P.S not connected to Messiah at all, actually played them in the Tourney way back... but game recognize game, as the poet once said.
Yes, there are only so many words that come to mind when thinking of Brandt. Genius. Mastermind. Mustache. Winner. Legend.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 24, 2014, 01:18:58 PM
Yes, there are only so many words that come to mind when thinking of Brandt. Genius. Mastermind. Mustache. Winner. Legend.
Ok now go have your cigarette
OWU beats Oberlin tonight 4-1. Impressive win. Unclear why game scheduled for tomorrow night occurred today.
Centre gets by Birm-Southern 1-0, leading in shots 24 to 13 (16 to 7 on goal). The Colonels are now 7-2-5 and should have a pretty good SOS to go with it.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 23, 2014, 05:23:59 PM
The dream of everyone on this board is to win NCAA championships and one day watch your son win one. Nuff said. Brandt is a genius.
Let's not forget that his daughter also won two NCs (and a POY) during her 3 years at Messiah.
It's a gorgeous day here in south-central PA and even though Messiah is without an opponent today, I am provided the opportunity to see one (or two) of the following matches, all just minutes away. In order, they are: Swarthmore at Dickinson (1:00), CNU at Penn State-Harrisburg (2:00), and then Haverford at Franklin and Marshall (6:00).
What to do . . . what to do.
Psu Harrisburg, a 3 win season last year, now with wins over York, Salisbury, and CNU in 2014
Amazing that Harrisburg has won those three being outshot 51-18. That's a tough trend to continue.
Not sure how it will play out but those bad losses -- S. Virginia, Hood and Wesley -- might mean the AQ is the only guarantee for the NCAA tournament.
York and Salisbury end in a scoreless draw; Wesley over Mary Washington 3-2 in OT. With only Marymount at Frostburg left on today's CAC schedule, 7 of the 10 teams are still eligible for the playoffs.
Salisbury 5-1-2 (17)
Mary Washington 5-3-0 (15)
PS Harrisburg 5-3-0 (15)
St. Mary's 5-3-0 (15)
CNU 3-2-3 (12)
York 3-3-2 (11)
Frostburg 3-3-1 (10)
Wesley 3-5-0 (9)
So Virginia 2-6-0 (6)
Marymount 1-6-0 (3)
This should make for a very nervous and exciting Wednesday with the final regular season games:
PS-Hbg at Mary Wash
York at St. Mary's
Frostburg at So VA
Marymount at CNU
Salisbury at Wesley
Lots of shuffling today in the NCAC. Denison trounces Wabash 4-0 and Allegheny beats Depauw 1-0. Kenyon handles Hiram 4-0, it looks like Kenyon's offensive struggles ended today. I'm not sure how this bad loss to Denison affects Wabash's tourney hopes, but it certainly puts a huge dent in them.
Wartburg up on Loras 1-0 early, goal by Azari. Seems like a very enthusiastic crowd in attendance. Very exciting game thus far with action at both ends.
chelsea30, could be a devastating loss for Wabash and would likely have to win NCAC tourney or at least get to final to get a NCAA bid since they didn't even crack regional rankings yet. They were aided by DePauw unbelievably losing to Allegheny. Really shocked because I expected DePauw to be a top 12 team and top 25 team at worst. DePauw still alive because if win at Wabash both would have 3 losses and DePauw would have head to head. Denison would obviously have the head to head with Wabash at the moment but Denison finishes up with OWU and DePauw. Wabash should still be in good shape to qualify for NCAC tourney IF they beat or even draw with DePauw, but their NCAA chances have really suffered now. At the moment it is looking like Kenyon would have a home game with Wabash most likely (even if Wabash loses to DePauw) with Denison and DePauw playing for the last NCAC slot in the final game of the season. Who benefits the most from today's NCAC results? Probably Carnegie Mellon and Case Western.
Kenyon still had not scored 65 minutes into today's game with Hiram when the offense finally awakened from its long slumber. We'll see soon enough if putting 4 on the board will jumpstart the Lords for the next few games.
Loras up 2-1 at the half with a header by Irwin (36th minute) followed by a goal by Perez (41st minute). It continues to be a very exciting match with action up and down the pitch. I am expecting a very exciting 2nd half.
Salisbury, PSU-Hbg, Mary Washington, and St. Mary's have all clinched berths in the CAC soccer playoffs with the final two positions up for grabs among the trio of Frostburg, CNU and York. The current standings are as follows:
1. Salisbury [17], 2t. Penn St. Harrisburg [15], 2t. Mary Washington [15], 2t. St. Mary's [15], 5. Frostburg St. [13], 6. Chris. Newport [12], 7. York [11], 8. Wesley [9], 9. So. Virginia [6], 10. Marymount [3].
Frostburg is in with a win or tie against So. Virginia. CNU, hosting Marymount, is in with a win or any result equal to or better than York. York not only needs a win at St. Mary's but they will need either a loss by Frostburg or a loss (or tie) by CNU.
I was able to attend the PSU-Hbg / CNU match yesterday and had the following observations. Even though CNU was the more dangerous side the Lion's were not without a bit of flair (especially with regards to Kline, Panuccio and Amedza) and did an excellent job of finishing the chances they were given. The pitch was very small and I believe this assisted PSU-Hbg greatly as they could keep their defense compact at all times. The final impression is one of utmost optimism for the future of this team. This is a team that was 0-8 in the conference last year and has now secured a tournament spot and may even host a playoff game. I talked with some of the parents and they mentioned that the athletic staff is proposing the design and construction of a new field (very near the existing field) so that they might be better situated to host NCAA tournament games in the future. That's optimism . . . well done Lions!
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 23, 2014, 10:09:28 PM
The Weekend Ahead
Finally, University of Dallas is at Trinity (TX). Trinity's only loss was very early to Texas-Dallas. Can the other Dallas squad pull an upset? I don't think Tony Romo is walking through that door.
Thanks for the mention. UT-Dallas is decent side that is tied for the lead of the American Southwest; UDallas is a much smaller private school that wins about as often as they lose. Trinity (TX) 4 - 0 U Dallas today.
Big week ahead in the MIAA. Although Calvin has already locked up the regular season title and is making a push for a number one seed in the NCAAs, the remaining three slots in the season-ending tournament are up for grabs among four teams: Hope, Kalamazoo, Olivet and the surprising Scots of Alma. Each contender's schedule this week (games Wednesday and Saturday):
Hope: Hosts Alma, travels to Kalamazoo
Kalamazoo: Travels to Trine, hosts Hope
Olivet: Hosts Adrian, travels to Calvin
Alma: Travels to Hope, hosts Adrian
Good luck to each squad.
In the OAC, John Carroll locks up conference championship with their 3-2 victory over Capital. And with two remaining games against teams that most likely will not make the conference playoffs, they have the option of resting some starters. JCU is a very solid team - physically and technically. If anything the coaching staff might be guilty of making tactical changes that negatively impact the team - as in losing a 4-1 lead at Otterbein and reducing the high pressure in the Capital game (ended first half with 3 goals in the last 7 minutes for a 3-1 lead; relaxed in the second and allowed Cap to get back in and almost tie things up).
If they apply high pressure continuously during conference tournament games they should win the OAC. ONU is coming on but there are questions in the back; when the gain possession in the attacking third they are very strong. Cap and Otterbein should battle it out for third and fourth place. Schedule favors Otterbein to get two wins in their last two games.
Barring schedule changes (!) I will attend the OWU-Denison game Wednesday . . .
Around the Horn with some Odds and Ends
A good number of high profile to fairly high profile teams continue to play themselves off or onto the right side of the bubble. Wesleyan, Centre, Babson, North Park, Chicago, Rochester, Hope, Christopher Newport, Brockport, Rutgers-Newark, Rutgers, Camden, WPI, Carnegie Mellon, and Case Western come to mind.
Does Luther have any worries? What about Emory, surprisingly still ranked #1 in the South Atlantic, if they lose and/or draw a couple of the their final games? Can GAC and/or Hobart play themselves on to the bubble, or are they already on?
How quickly things can change. As noted above or in another thread, Christopher Newport went from very highly ranked nationally to struggling to qualify for the CAC tourney. Kenyon was on the cusp of #1 in the land and within 4 days had dropped to 3rd in teh NCAC (although now back to 2nd). Wesleyan seemed in pretty shape in the NESCAC and now may end up with a 1st round away game. Denison went from devastation in a double OT loss to 3rd place in the NCAC (but they have OWU and DePauw as their final two games). Hope seemed sure of a bid but now is in trouble. Same with Babson. Centre was looking good but then drops a home game.
Can both Dominican and MSOE get bids from the NACC?
With a regular season showdown looming, will Thomas More or Grove City take the PrAC?
Transylvania and Rose-Hulman are tied in the HCAC, and drew against each other, and both have to play 3rd place Anderson over the next week.
Will the SUNYAC get 3 bids? Oneonta and Cortland should be locks, so what about Brockport?
The Centennial looks pretty clear with F&M, Dickinson and Muhlenberg all getting bidding barring another team snagging the AQ.
Montclair is in. What about Rutgers-N and Rutgers-C? And does Richard Stockton have an outside chance?
3 bids for the NWC? Whitworth, Puget Sound, and surprising Willamette? Willamette is 12-4-1 but 9-1-1 in conference.
Speaking of under the radar standouts, how about Minnesota-Morris in the UMAC at 9-1-2 in conference and 11-4-2 overall?
On the rankings front, F&M seems very deserving of the #2 slot and ready to take #1 should Messiah have a slip again (of course doubtful). F&M has played a very strong schedule with no slumps and at least by scoreline easily handled a good and desperate Haverford team 4-1. Oneonta also just keeps rolling, as do Trinity, Brandeis, and Calvin. Loras has proven again that they are contenders for the national title. Other key teams in the national and possible final four run mix would appear to be Montclair, Kenyon, Wheaton (Ill), Amherst, OWU, Tufts, and Dickinson/Muhlenberg. Hard to trust at the moment are Whitworth, Salisbury and Christopher Newport. Sleepers include Wheaton (MA), Cortland, SLU/RPI, Wartburg, St Olaf, John Carroll, Colorado College, and Puget Sound. A big question mark is who if anyone is going to emerge as a real challenger from the UAA beyond Brandeis.
Quick question. Are group C teams eligible to get group B at large bids if the group C bid goes to a different team?
The Week Ahead
Tuesday
Scranton @ Oneonta -- An upset win wouldn't be enough to get Scranton at large bid but maybe would give them a big shot of confidence heading into the Landmark tourney. I fully expect Oneonta to just keep adding up wins.
Luther @ Dubuque and St Olaf @ Augsburg -- The favorites want to avoid their at large chances taking a hit.
Roger Williams @ Gordon -- Gordon is locked in a battle with Nichols for home field so they need to prevail over a pesky RWU side.
Wednesday
Montclair @ Rutgers-Newark -- Rutgers-N had been rising steadily up the charts but finds itself in a sputter with one of the hottest teams in the nation coming to town. How badly does Rutgers need this game???
Dickinson @ Muhlenberg -- Barring a major collapse and a lot of highly rated teams not getting a AQ both of these should be in good shape, and will provide the kind of high intensity competition to prepare them for a likely re-match in a week and a possible battle with F&M.
Tufts @ Bowdoin -- Tufts should be in good shape, but adding another win might protect them in the event of an early NESCAC tuorney exit. More importantly Tufts wants to keep their confidence growing and put in the mind of future opponents that they are a real contender. Bowdoin will try to muster the resolve for a good effort but just feels like at this point they are facing a hill too high to climb.
Denison @ OWU -- OWU doesn't drop NCAC regular season games ever, and they are even less likely to to drop one when the conference crown already is in their back pocket. Denison deserves a ton of credit for getting to 5-2 in the conference where they can almost taste a NCAC tourney slot, but 'almost' may be as close as they get. It seems nearly as unlikely that DePauw will lose in the final game of the season at home with the last NCAC spot on the line.
DePauw at Wabash -- This is one almost impossible to predict. DePauw has been very disappointing but still finds themselves miraculously very much in the hunt. Wabash followed a very exciting week with a drubbing at Denison and who knows if the Little Giants were also deflated from not gaining a regional ranking last week. A win doesn't do much for DePauw as they still would have to beat Denison, with Wabash most likely getting a win on the road at Wooster in their final game.
Elmhurst @ North Park -- Is North Park already in a position where they will have to win the CCIW tourney?
Conn College @ Wesleyan and Williams @ Hamilton -- These games might determine who gets home field in a first round #4 vs #5 NESCAC matchup.
MSOE @ Dominican -- The NACC regular season title is on the line.
Richard Stockton @ Rutgers-Camden -- Camden is looking much better but really cannot afford more losses unless they are going to win the NJAC tournament, and the Ospreys (did I get that right?) are still in the mix.
Colby at Bates -- Huge rivalry game for these two bottom dwellers who have caused some trouble for their more highly regarded NESCAC foes. A final playoff slot also might be on the line.
Lasell @ Babson -- An upset here would not shock me and could be a final nail for the Beavers.
More later....
Quote from: Durantula on October 27, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Quick question. Are group C teams eligible to get group B at large bids if the group C bid goes to a different team?
You got your B and C mixed up. Pool B teams (independents and conferences without automatic berth) that do not receive the Pool B at-large berth get dumped into Pool C. There's only one Pool B berth, but more than one Pool B team can be selected if they can make the cut competing against all the other Pool C teams. That was the case two years ago, when both Centre and UW-Platteville got selected--Centere as the Pool B berth and UW-Platteville subsequently from Pool C. Pool B is so weak this year that I can't see a second one getting an invite from Pool C.
Quote from: Durantula on October 27, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Quick question. Are group C teams eligible to get group B at large bids if the group C bid goes to a different team?
I was about to reply but the Weasel was quicker on the draw (and isn't that always the case). The one thing I wanted to add was the number for each pool. A total of 61 teams are eligible for the NCAA tournament and the numbers for each pool are as follows:
Pool A: 42 teams
Pool B: 1 team
Pool C: 18 teams
The Week Ahead (continued...)
Friday
Brandeis @ Wash U -- The shock here is that this game means next to nothing at this point in the season, other than Brandeis massaging its seeding and locking in some NCAA home games.
NYU @ Chicago and Case Western @ Carnegie Mellon -- Will 2 out of these 4 get bids, and will losses here eliminate 2 teams? These all seem to be decent to good teams but none are great.
Rochester @ Emory -- One would assume that Rochester needs this game in the worst way, and how many can this year's Teflon squad, Emory, lose, before they get punished in the regional rankings? The dynamics heading into this game make it one to watch.
Southwestern @ Trinity -- A nice little scrimmage for Trinity coming down the home stretch. Maybe work on some new set plays for an anticipated Elite 8 rematch with Loras.
Saturday
Messiah @ Arcadia -- Messiah plays 8 v 11 and still wins 4-0.
F&M @ Dickinson -- F&M tries to cement the impression that they just aren't going to get beat. Dickinson needs a win against a really big team before the NCAA tourney to get past a "round of 32 will be good enough" mentality.
Kenyon @ Oberlin -- The Ohio version of Macalester vs Carleton, Mass version of Amherst vs Williams and Maine version of any combo of the Maine NESCAC threesome. Kenyon needs to put several strong outings in a row together to regain their belief in making a deep run. Oberlin could be motivated to close with a national-level upset win, but they may be just as ready to mail it in, get out the golf clubs, and head to Aruba.
Whitworth @ Willamette -- With a win, a lot more folks would begin to realize that Willamette is enjoying a banner season, and they also might wrap up a bid in the process.
Wheaton @ North Park -- These two could be playing the first of what will be a two-legged deal, and if an at-large already is out of reach for North Park then the 2nd leg at Wheaton will be more important (although North Park getting to the CCIW final is far from guaranteed).
St Olaf @ Carleton -- A win here by St Olaf probably won't count as a strong win either, but nevertheless, if the Oles haven't enough done enough I think a win here earns them a bid. Carleton has played some top teams tough, so no gimme for the Oles at all.
Denison @ DePauw -- There may be one, but I can't come up with a scenario where a NCAC playoff spot isn't on the line. Assuming a Denison loss to OWU earlier in the week, DePauw most likely will need a win even if they beat Wabash (although I haven't confirmed who has the advantage if Denison and DePauw draw and both ended at 5-3-1). Wabash should be safe for a spot regardless of the DePauw game as long as Denison doesn't get a result against OWU and assuming they don't concede a result against Wooster.
Grove City @ Thomas More -- A battle for the regular season PrAC crown.
Anderson @ Transylvania -- Transy will have the advantage of knowing what they need (vis-a-vis RHIT) after the Anderson-RHIT tilt earlier in the week.
MIT @ WPI -- The smart kids from WPI get a chance to put a notch in their belt versus the off-the-chart smart kids at MIT.
Haverford @ Swarthmore -- The Pennsylvania version of Kenyon-Oberlin, et al above, and playing for little more than pride.
Hope @ Kzoo -- Hope is in trouble. And did I mention Kzoo has great video?
Rhodes @ Millsaps and Oglethorpe @ Centre -- I'm tired of waiting for a SAA team to really stand up and be counted.
Sunday
Brandeis @ Chicago -- Crystal ball says Brandeis is going to end Chicago's season right here.
Case Western @ Emory -- Emory will finally win a game...and will be rewarded with the #1 overall seed for the NCAA tourney over Messiah.
Rochester @ Carnegie Mellon -- IF Rochester gets a win (or maybe, maybe even a draw) versus Emory I see the Yellow Jackets coming out of Pittsburgh with a win and grabbing the very last at-large bid. Immediately after the Selection Show, Dick Vitale will come on and start screaming about how the "little guys" (like Minnesota-Morris, Brockport, PS-Harrisburg, etc) never get a chance. On the other hand, assuming Carnegie beats Case on Friday then a win or maybe even a draw with Rochester is enough to lock the Tartans into a bid given the relative weakness in the Great Lakes.
I notice in the box score that Brandeis best player Rutgers transfer Michael Soboff is not in the line up against minnow Mt.Ida. Any "dice" fan know what the story is? If he is out long term that will definitely damper Brandeis' future
Anyone else have the impression that compared to past couple of years when several deserving teams didn't make because of the overall strength of the at-large group this year is going to have at least 2 or 3 soft selections. I'm looking at all of the regional rankings and don't see a huge number that are definitely deserving. Let's go through them assuming that form holds although we know that will not be the case (though in some instances the same teams would still get a bid...like say Dickinson wins AQ instead of F&M and F&M is then an at-large lock.
In New England, sure bets look like:
Brandeis
Tufts
Amherst
Wheaton (MA)
Coast Guard
Then another group:
Middlebury
Gordon
WPI/Babson
Williams/Wesleyan
3-4 out of the above will be AQs, with at least 2 at large bids out of the first 5 presumed to already be in. Let's assume Gordon wins an AQ and that 3 other teams get at large bids for a total of 5 at large bids.
In the East, the locks appear to be:
Oneonta
SLU
Cortland
RPI
Stevens
The only other ranked teams last week were:
Brockport
Rochester
Looks like 3 AQs, leaving 2 at large bids out of top group, and then how many more? Let's say 2 more for a total of 4.
Mid-Atlantic looks very strong at the top but with little depth:
Messiah
F&M
Dickinson
Muhlenberg
I don't see anyone else definitely deserving at this point unless they win an AQ. The above most likely gives us 2 AQs, so 2 would be at large bids. Let's give them 1 more wild card at large for a total of 3.
The South-Atlantic is a mess. The only absolute definites right now look like:
Montclair
Salisbury
Then there's:
Emory
Christopher Newport
Rutgers-Newark
Rutgers-Camden
Roanoke (addition)
Covenant
Richard Stockton (addition)
Centre
Millsaps (addition)
Greensboro (addition)
NC Wesleyan (addition)
Methodist (addition)
I don't know how many of those can be argued as deserving or deserving with a little more work, but let's say get 6 at larges.
Wow, this is hard, because I'm already at the limit of 18/19, and I'm only through 4 regions with 4 to go, so I have to revamp.
Let's give New England 4 at large, East 3, Mid-Atlantic 2, South Atlantic 3 (which seems brutal but I'm already up to 12 with only 6/7 slots left unless I'm way off on this).
Great Lakes locks appear to be:
Kenyon
OWU
John Carroll
Assuming 2 AQs out of that group (very risky especially with the OAC and Ohio Northern coming on and Capital pretty good), we then have 1 at large so far and then:
Carnegie Mellon
Case Western
Wabash (let's say they win out and get to NCAC final, and how in world did Geneva get ranked over them?)
In any case, I don't see more than 2 at large bids coming out of Great Lakes, and if Kenyon or OWU don't win NCAC and JCU doens't win OAC then there is a real squeeze. Don't, for instance, see room for the HCAC runner-up.
Down to 4/5 slots, with 3 regions left. Can already see I can't do this!
In Central the locks are Calvin and Wheaton. Given how many are left I can't see giving them an at large unless one of these two needs it, so 0 for now. Hope and North Park bumming.
In the North, we have:
Loras
Luther
Wartburg
And then:
St Olaf
GAC
UW-W (which I think is the extra slot in Pool B, right?)
With another region left, can't see giving North more than 2 at larges (probably 2 IIAC teams), so that leaves 2 at larges for the West.
In the West regionally ranked last week we have:
Trinity
Whitworth
Hardin-Simmons (don't know what deal is here?)
Pomona
Colorado Coll
TX-Dallas
And we don't have:
Puget Sound
Willamette
After the AQs, how many should the West get? 2? 1? 0? If 0 or 1, that leaves 1-2 more slots left over for the other 7 regions.
Glad I'm not on the committee!
And now having attempted to go through the selections I see just how far off I was with that first sentence about some softer selections getting in.
He had not played since MIT? Wow ggod stuff w/o him
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2014, 07:45:00 PM
I notice in the box score that Brandeis best player Rutgers transfer Michael Soboff is not in the line up against minnow Mt.Ida. Any "dice" fan know what the story is? If he is out long term that will definitely damper Brandeis' future
Soboff got a bruised foot during the MIT match 3 weeks ago. Not only does he contribute goals and assists, he is an integral part to the Judges' physical game which, though obviously not Brandeis' strength, has improved a lot this year thanks to Soboff, Lanahan, and J. Ocel, as well as the return of R. Lynch, who missed last year with injury.
However, from what I was told at tonight's game, Soboff will be back for Friday's game against WashU.
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2014, 09:57:29 PM
He had not played since MIT? Wow ggod stuff w/o him
Yeah, they took him out halfway through that game. Certainly missed him against Rochester.
All regions are beset this year with teams with good winning % and bad SOS or average winning % and very strong SOS. This makes it all the harder. However, they usually do not give 4 Pool C's to the east region. Brockport St will not get in with 6 ties. Stevens has to win their league and after checking coach Apple is not on the committee, so do not expect Rochester in there either. Pool C will come from RPI / SLU and if I were RPI I would not lose in the semi-final to Vassar. Cortland and Oneonta will both get in.
UAA usually gets 4-5 teams every year. Brandeis seems to be the only lock as the others will start knocking each other out. Also, do not expect Wash U and NYU to lose the rest of their games so someone else will grab an extra loss.
Nescac will get Amherst and Tufts. However unlikely as it may be for either team I would not lose both of their next 2 games. Wesleyan and Williams have very good SOS with not so good winning %. If either of those teams make the Nescac final they will be the third Nescac. Midd should be ok but they also need the nescac final. They will be 9-3-3 and if they win 1st round 10-3-3 and lose in semi 10-4-3 thats not good enough with their SOS.
Gordon AD is chair of the new England committee so I have to believe they are in that ranking for that reason. 13-3-1 with a 560 SOS and a tough home match against Roger Williams to finish and an even tougher first round game with WNEC does not bode well for them.
Your mid-atlantic looks perfect with most likely 2 Pool C's with one team winning F&M's conference and Messiah getting their league.
South-less complicated than you made it. All those additions you have added have no shot. Rutgers Camden while their schedule is one of the more impressive ones I have seen just have to many losses. Centre and Covenant no shot. RNU if they beat Montclair will get in however if they lose that game they might be in trouble unless they get to the final of NJAC. Montclair St is in. Salisbury might still have work to do but they are close along with CNU. That conference is underrated in my opinion.
Kenyon,OWU are in and one should get AQ. Depauw and Wabash no chance. Carnegie Mellon and Case Western both need to go 2-0-1 or maybe 3-0-0 to get in.
Thoughts?
October 28, 2014
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 9
Through games of Sunday, October 26, 2014
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Messiah (25) 15-0-1 625 1
2 F&M 14-0-1 594 2
3 Trinity (Texas) 17-1-0 571 3
4 Oneonta State 15-0-2 545 4
5 Brandeis 14-1-0 528 5
6 Calvin 15-2-0 486 7
7 Kenyon 13-1-1 458 6
8 Loras 13-2-1 456 8
9 Whitworth 13-1-2 409 9
10 Montclair State 15-3-0 361 11
11 Muhlenberg 10-1-2 353 13
12 Wheaton (Ill.) 14-3-0 334 12
13 Amherst 10-1-3 327 10
14 St. Lawrence 13-2-1 316 14
15 Wheaton (MA) 14-2-2 246 15
16 Luther 14-2-1 230 19
17 Ohio Wesleyan 12-3-2 223 18
18 Tufts 10-1-3 195 23
19 Salisbury 11-1-5 174 16
20 Coast Guard 13-1-2 144 20
21 Emory 11-3-1 113 21
22 Chris. Newport 12-3-4 69 17
23 Dickinson 11-3-1 67 22
24 Colorado Coll. 13-3-2 60 —
25 Cortland State 13-3-1 53 —
Dropped out: No. 24 Wabash, No. 25 North Park
Receiving Votes: RPI 35, WPI 25, Methodist 21, Wabash 17, John Carroll 15, Stevens 14, Elmhurst 12, North Park 6, Pomona-Pitzer 6, Rutgers-Newark 5, Roanoke 5, St. Scholastica 5, Lycoming 5, Penn State-Harrisburg 3, Thomas More 3, Milwaukee Engineering 2, New York University 2, Puget Sound 2, Rochester 2, Knox 2, Middlebury 1
My bad I tailed off but to finish off my south region, I am with you as Emory has no business there with a 1-3-1 conference record. You should have to be .500 in your conference or better to be even looked at. #1 seed is inexplicable.
Central region- Wheaton Illinois and Calvin are locks. I really do not think Hope has a great schedule and I am not a fan of the MIAA playing double games within the conference as it hurts Hope SOS. North Park defines being on the bubble. Chicago needs to go 3-0-0 to finish and if they do that I think they would win the UAA. At the very least they need to beat Brandeis. North Central has a decent schedule but they do not get in.
North- I like Loras and Wartburg to make it. Luther to me has a weak schedule and has a lot of work to do. UWW has some nice wins and a good schedule and they should get a Pool B. The others are toast
West-Trinity and Whitworth work for me. Colorado College has a weak schedule and was ranked in D3 poll for a long time and that shocked me. The rest are toast.
Mr.Right, let's say Dominican gets AQ. Are you not giving a bid to Milwaukee Engineering, currently 9-0-0 and 15-3?
On the South Atlantic, I know all the teams I added aren't going to make it but wanted to highlight some teams with good records and just how chaotic that region is.
Will the committee put Messiah and F&M in the same quadrant for an Elite 8 game on paper even if F&M still appears to be the clear #2 or #3 in the country at the time, or would they consider moving F&M to New England or Great Lakes/Central regions?
A mock Sweet Sixteen outlay:
Brandeis
Oneonta
Tufts
Amherst/SLU/Wheaton (MA)
Messiah
F&M
Montclair
Salisbury/CNU/Muhlenberg/Dickinson/Emory?
Calvin/Kenyon
Kenyon/Calvin
Wheaton (Ill)
OWU/John Carroll?/Carnegie Mellon?
Trinity
Loras
Whitworth
Wartburg/Luther/St Olaf/GAC?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 27, 2014, 09:20:57 PM
In the West regionally ranked last week we have:
Trinity
Whitworth
Hardin-Simmons (don't know what deal is here?)
Pomona
Colorado Coll
TX-Dallas
And we don't have:
Puget Sound
Willamette
After the AQs, how many should the West get? 2? 1? 0? If 0 or 1, that leaves 1-2 more slots left over for the other 7 regions.
Glad I'm not on the committee!
Hardin-Simmons has played an odd schedule with almost no games outside of ASC play this season. At the time of the ranking they were 6-1-2 with only a 1-2 neutral site result vs Trinity in the first game of the season keeping them from being unbeaten. The two ties were vs. regionally ranked UT-Dallas and an improving UT-Tyler squad, so per the criteria they probably warranted that ranking.
Their results this weekend, however, were 1-2 at Ozarks and an 0-1 at UT-Dallas, which should push them off the board when the next regionals come out.
I am definitely not giving a bid to MSOE...No wins against ranked teams and they have lost to all teams ahead of them in the regional rankings in which they do not even get ranked. They have a SOS of .501..Case closed. That league is a one bid road show.
The South does look chaotic but only at the top. Those 6 or 7 teams that you listed who are not even ranked have to win their tourney
The South Atlantic will be a battle for most likely 3 bids. Rutgers-Newark, Emory, Montclair St, CNU and Salisbury. Really maybe only 2 bids depending on the conference tournament and if Emory chokes this weekend
So let's say Camden wins conf tourney. You are putting Newark out. And if CNU loses again or doesn't get to CAC final you are putting them out? What are you doing with Emory if they lose to Rochester and win the other one?
If Camden wins that tourney than Montclair St gets in. Newark must beat Montclair St in the next game and then reach the final. Otherwise yes they would be out. CNU and would get in over Salisbury as long as it gets into the CAC final. Emory has no business being in this but since they are #1 they could likely go 1-1-1 and get in. We agree that the top of this region is a mess and all these teams have work to do
Here's another for you.
In the NWC, Willamette currently is 1st place at 9-1-1 and 12-4-1 overall, Whitworth in 2nd, and Puget Sound in 3rd at 8-2-1 and 11-4-2 overall. Willamette plays Whitworth Saturday where a win will probably give them NWC bid. Does Whitworth still get in? If Whitworth gets the AQ you don't see any chance for Willamette or PSU?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2014, 10:05:59 AM
Will the committee put Messiah and F&M in the same quadrant for an Elite 8 game on paper even if F&M still appears to be the clear #2 or #3 in the country at the time, or would they consider moving F&M to New England or Great Lakes/Central regions?
I doubt Messiah and F&M would meet in the 3rd round if they were to finish the regular season ranked #1 and #2. In the past, the committee has had some rather highly ranked teams meeting each other earlier than would be expected, but this was usually attributed to travel accommodations. There was a similar scenario just last year when #1 Ohio Wesleyan (19-0-3) was placed in the same regional bracket as #3 Messiah (18-1-1). But they were placed at opposite ends of their 16-team bracket and would only have met (had Rose-Hulman not thrown a wrench into the plan) in the 4th (sectional final) round.
But you never know with the committee. They could move one of those teams to another bracket (as was done when Messiah and York were both highly ranked) or they could put them both in the same regional bracket. I would not be surprised by the latter because they never played during the regular season and the committee loves intrigue. But it's hard to believe we are approaching the tournament and I have yet to break out the sweatshirts and jackets that I packed into the trunk of the car about a month ago.
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting a sweet 16 (3rd round) game with Messiah and F&M, but rather would they be matched up for possible Elite 8? When I look at the strength in the other projected brackets I don't see a really strong case for moving F&M. Bottom line is whoever ends up placed with Messiah is going to feel unlucky, unless of course they get upset early which then makes the quadrant easier for the other highly rated teams.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2014, 10:48:40 AM
So let's say Camden wins conf tourney. You are putting Newark out. And if CNU loses again or doesn't get to CAC final you are putting them out? What are you doing with Emory if they lose to Rochester and win the other one?
If Newark loses to MSU, they will have to play a first round NJAC playoff game. If they lose to Camden for the 2nd time, I don't see how Newark can get in. But it's also hard to justify Camden getting in with 8 losses. First things first, they face a tough test on the road at Stockton.
If Emory finishes 6th in the UAA, they should not get a bid.
Agreed on Emory. They should have to go 2-0-1 or at least 2-1 over last 3.
Lastguy, what do you think CNU needs to get done to secure bid, and do you see Salisbury as safe?
Enjoy all this now because when this proposal gets put into place we will be going back to the early 2000's with only 3 At-Large bids.
On Friday, the Division III Presidents Council endorsed five recommendations from the Division III Management Council that will cut a projected $2 million from the division's championships budget, according to a news release on the NCAA's website.
Among the changes that could be on the horizon: increased fees for DIII members and decreased fields for national championships at the DIII level.
Read the full news release here:
The Division III Presidents Council endorsed five recommendations from the Division III Management Council that will cut a projected $2.17 million from the division's championships budget. All of the measures pertain to championships travel policies; four of them are effective immediately. The proposal that necessitates a three-day window between championships selections and the first date of competition will go into effect in 2015-16.
All of the measures pertain to championships travel policies; four of them are effective immediately. The proposal that necessitates a three-day window between championships selections and the first date of competition will go into effect in 2015-16.
The proposals were initially crafted via collaboration between the Division III Championships and Strategic Planning and Finance committees. While the cuts will help combat a projected budget shortfall of $2.5 million in the 2014-15 academic year, the council noted at its Aug. 7 meeting in Indianapolis that these are only preliminary steps in the long march to achieving a balanced budget.
The Division III Presidents Advisory Group discussed ways to balance the budget over the long term when it convened on the eve of the council meeting. The group, which is composed of representatives from each of Division III's 43 conferences, endorsed the recommended championships reductions. Some members also suggested examining cuts to non-championships spending, which is primarily composed of grant programs and accounts for 25 percent of the division's budget.
The advisory group also endorsed the concept of relying on membership funding to support championships and other programs through a dues increase or targeted championships assessment. Membership dues, currently $900 a year per school and $450 per conference, haven't been adjusted since 1985 and are far lower than schools are accustomed to paying for membership in other organizations.
The advisory group stressed that presidents would likely be amenable to providing increased annual funding, either at a flat rate or at rates that slide based on criteria such as enrollment, school budget or size of athletics program. With approximately 500 dues-paying schools and conferences in the division, a targeted rate hike could make a significant impact on the efforts to balance the budget, advisory group members argued.
The budget discussion will continue this fall, leading up to the Division III Issues Forum at the 2015 Convention. That session will include a comprehensive review of the division's budget resources, policies and process, as well as short-term and long-term budget options identified by the championships and finance committees including the benefits and drawbacks of adjusting the division's championships access ratio.
"We're going to have to make several adjustments," said Alan Cureton, president of the University of Northwestern – St. Paul, vice chair of the presidents council and chair of the strategic planning and finance committee. "So when we asked the presidents advisory group, they threw out a variety of options. ...We're going to take a really hard look at everything, but we also want feedback from the Association and the membership as to what they think we should do."
On-campus evaluations
In July, the management council opted not to sponsor a legislative recommendation from the Division III Recruiting Working Group that would permit on-campus athletic evaluations. The management council made the decision despite encouragement from the membership, via survey and straw poll results, that such a proposal be brought to the 2015 Convention floor.
The presidents council voted to sponsor the legislation, though it did not offer its full support for the rule. Those in favor argued it would make life easier for coaches, while those in opposition noted that those burdens, namely the time and money required for travel, would be passed to prospective student-athletes. Though council members didn't formally endorse the proposal, they sponsored it in order to ensure it would be added to the 2015 Convention legislative agenda, fostering discussion among members and, ultimately, giving them the opportunity to decide the rule's fate.
"The presidents council can see the pros and cons of both sides, but we're really interested in what the membership thinks," Cureton said. "And we have no idea which way it is going to go, but this is the beauty of our Association. It's membership-driven, so we want to know what they think about this."
Reduction in number of contests
The council voted to co-sponsor proposed legislation – initially sponsored by the Old Dominion Athletic Conference and the Centennial Conference – that would reduce the maximum number of in-season contests (or dates of competition, depending on the sport) by up to 10 percent. The reduction would apply to nearly every sport, save for those with only a handful of contests such as football (10) and cross country (9).
The conferences brought the proposal forward in hopes of limiting costs and ensuring that student-athletes can devote more time to academics and other extracurricular endeavors. The proposal wouldn't shorten the overall length of the playing season, but simply eliminate a few contests – particularly those played midweek that disrupt classes – within the current timeframes allotted for sports' regular seasons.
The presidents council debated the merits of the proposal and, ultimately, voted to co-sponsor it, arguing that it would be beneficial to student-athletes because it would ease their athletics burdens.
"Our concern as presidents was the fact that students were being drawn away during the week," Cureton said. "The idea is to protect the students' time so that they have what they need in the classroom and aren't spending it out on the road or away from campus because of athletic contests."
Other actions
The council sponsored convention legislation that would add women's sand volleyball as a sport in Division III and establish a National Collegiate Championship for the sport. The first sand volleyball championship would tentatively be scheduled to be held in 2016. The council noted that National Collegiate Championships do not have an impact on Division III's budget.
Currently, schools hoping to join Division III must take part in a five-year membership process, which includes an exploratory year and four provisional years. Last month the management council, per a recommendation by the Division III Membership Committee, endorsed legislation that would permit schools that have demonstrated a commitment to the Division III philosophy and clearly meet sports sponsorship and financial aid requirements to skip the exploratory year and take part only in the four-year provisional process. The presidents council voted to sponsor this legislation for the 2015 Convention.
The presidents advisory group discussed potential reforms to the nontraditional segment (offseason) at length given that membership-sponsored legislation calling for greater practice opportunities in spring football will be up for vote at the 2015 Convention.
A majority of the presidents in attendance voiced concern about the time demands and expenses associated with the current nontraditional segment, and expressed a willingness to consider a new nontraditional model. Those presidents felt that a new model might better preserve the benefits of the current nontraditional segment, while enhancing the ability of student-athletes to have a diverse academic, athletic and extracurricular life on campus.
Others countered, noting that the popularity of the current nontraditional model with student-athletes and coaches, and their belief that the model encourages student-athletes to flourish athletically and academically. The presidents council will tackle this topic in greater depth when it reconvenes in the fall and the membership will engage in a review of the current nontraditional season model at the 2015 Convention Division III Issues Forum.
UAA is always regarded as one of the best conferences, but they consistently stumble in the NCAAs (mainly because they run into some buzz saws). I believe that NYU was the only UAA team to reach the final four, and that was in 2006.
I would think that CNU just has to win one CAC playoff game to earn a bid. Salisbury should be safe, even with that overrated schedule. It's hilarious that they will be #1 in South Atlantic with 5 draws.
CNU should be fine. Salisbury and Rutgers Newark not so much as there SOS is not very good. They have a lot of work to do
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 28, 2014, 11:20:52 AM
Enjoy all this now because when this proposal gets put into place we will be going back to the early 2000's with only 3 At-Large bids.
On Friday, the Division III Presidents Council endorsed five recommendations from the Division III Management Council that will cut a projected $2 million from the division's championships budget, according to a news release on the NCAA's website.
So, the only reference I could find to this dates to August (http://www.iberkshires.com/story/47164/NCAA-Looks-to-Trim-Division-III-Playoffs.html) and IIRC these endorsements have to be voted in by the entire membership. Anyone know if that has happened, or when a vote might take place
Geez, 2.5 million dollars spread over 500 institutions. If you charged $6,000 for dues, instead of $900, you'd clear it up instantly. While I know there are some schools that would struggle to find $5000, I'm sure the vast majority of the membership would find it pretty easily. Cutting out a few athletic director trips to conferences would cover it.
With regard to Emory's and CNU's chances specifically and in regard to at-large berths in general, everyone should remember that last year the committee gave no at-large berths to the Central Region, and it's not too long ago that the Great Lakes region was shutout (two different years IIRC about four to eight years ago). So even if Emory and CNU manage to stay at or near the top of the South Atlantic rankings (due to the weakness of the region this year) despite additional blemishes in not gaining their conferences' AQs, do not assume that they get picked because the committee has to take a couple from the region. Just ask 2013 North Park. I think CNU has put themselves on the bubble because they have a lot of blemishes without any wins vs. ranked. The SOS is what is in their favor (and the fact that teams all over the place are picking up blemishes), but not sure it will be enough if they falter again and don't grab the CAC AQ.
Flash Feature Request....
Oneonta cruised past Scranton 3-0 this afternoon and now is a sparkling 16-0-2. Can someone familiar with Oneonta give us some insights into the strengths of this squad, style of play, etc? Frankly, they are having the kind of season I was expecting from SLU.
Wow. With less than 5 minutes left in 2nd OT Messiah's Ramirez takes advantage of his own player being injured and slow to get up to take a quick free kick into box to Payne who heads it in. Alvernia not set at all in the confusion of waiting for injured Messiah player to fully get up and for ref to set free kick and walk off the 10 yards. Actually thought ref was stopping play to issue a yellow. Future opponents of the Falcons take note. Saw something very similar last year when Wheaton took a quick free kick to cut Kenyon lead to 2-1.
And Gordon goes down to RWU 3-2.
quick set pieces are the most dangerous. Why wait for everyone to get set or get back in the box when you can catch the opponent off guard. I especially like them from midfield as they lead to quick combination play to set up an advantage
Midfield is one thing but seems to be a real grey area in refereeing. That's why you see defenders stand in front of the ball and sometimes get yellows for that. Sometimes refs blow the whistle and marks off 10 yards, and sometimes they allow the quick kick. Not sure that is right. And especially when there is a question of an injured player where the opposing players are taught that the sportsmanlike play is to wait or play ball out. During regulation an Alvernia player did stand in front of Ramirez in a free kick situation and Ramirez pushed him out of the way. Alvernia didn't deserve to lose like that. Their coach must be just beside himself.
Dubuque just tied up Luther 3-3 with less than 10 to go in an Iowa shootout. Pretty good video.
And Luther GK just stopped a PK. Luther defender sent off.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 28, 2014, 10:27:49 PM
And Luther GK just stopped a PK. Luther defender sent off.
heading into the 2OT @UD.. UD playing their hearts off with a man up..
OAC teams continue to display mediocre/schizophrenic tendencies. While JCU continues to win, they leak too many goals to go more than one game in the NCAA tournament - IF they make it. At this point I have no idea which team, from each school, will show up at next week's tournament.
Calvin drops from 1st to 3rd... hmmm
Luther drops completely off the charts
Idle Emory remains 1st
Rochester climbs to 4th (from 7th) after a 90th min goal over Kean.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
Calvin drops from 1st to 3rd... hmmm
Yeah, I don't understand that. Sure, the record vs. ranked came into play this week. And I can see the argument for Wheaton over Calvin for #1 based on the criteria they use and favor. But North Park over Calvin? Really? Slightly better SOS, but 4 losses instead of 2 and less wins vs. ranked.
Wheaton (Ill.) 14-3-0 | SOS .603 | 4-2-0 vs. ranked
Calvin 14-2-0 | SOS .561 | 3-2-0 vs. ranked
North Park 11-4-0 | SOS .583 | 2-1-0 vs. ranked
Luther's schedule is not good. The UAA is given plenty of clout on these rankings. The New England region befuddles me. How does Tufts not get to #2 over Coast Guard. This weekends games in the UAA should clear that up
These are some crazy rankings.
Dropping Luther completely seems just outrageous.
The Rochester jump, including over RPI and even above Stevens, seems unexplainable.
Swarthmore at #5 out of nowhere?
Geneva? Really?
Calvin dropping to 3rd? How many games in a row have they won? Is this just a strategic ploy to get Norht Park through? Same question for Rochester.
Didn't Babson just lose to WPI (and at home)?
No Willamette or Puget Sound in the West?
And Emory should be no higher than #4.
The Babson ranking bothers me. They have a decent SOS just lost to WPI and are 1-4-0 against ranked teams. They also have 6 losses.
Liberty League just lost a 2nd bid unless SLU loses. Poor RPI, they really are not a dangerous team but they have squeaked out some impressive results. Themselves and Brockport will need to win their leagues respectfully.
Honestly, Luther has a very weak schedule and no great wins.
How does Salisbury jump RNU?
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 29, 2014, 01:45:55 PM
These are some crazy rankings.
Geneva? Really?
I agree and would question Capital as well. Yes, I have a bias, but Wabash, Penn St-Behrend and even DePauw have as much of a claim (if not more) to those last two spots.
I agree that Luther SOS is well below the standard, but then why put them in the initial rankings?
Is the North Park more of a formality that while Calvin has more wins vs regionally ranked teams, NP win percentage vs those is better (2-1 vs Calvins 3-2).
Swat's win over Dickinson shot them up, plus Eastern and Haverford losing improved their case. After the loss to Washington, Swat will drop out. In the same breath, Camden beats Newark and Swat and does not crack the regional rankings.
It is interesting that good wins can shoot teams up a lot faster than bad losses shooting teams down.
Is it just me or are the record vs ranked teams for some teams not accurate?
We can argue about Luther all day (even though I think they are very good and have watched them several times). What can't be argued is that they were #2 in the regional rankings LAST WEEK, DIDN'T LOSE (or tie) and now are OUT. Incomprehensible.
It only goes by who is ranked regionally from the NCAA poll. Rutgers-Camden has played 7 regionally ranked teams, but Eastern fell off after dropping to DSU this week, so the record adjusts (I think); F&M, CNU, MSU, RU-N, Swat, Haverford (2-4 record). Losing to Cabrini and Rowan really hurt them this year.
It would be really interesting to see top 15 teams with the best SOS in the country. Listed from top to bottom
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but still befuddled at how Coast Guard is above Tufts in today's rankings. I would maybe expect it in the NSCAA Top 25, but not the Regional Rankings, much less the second one. I don't care if they're 13-1-2, they lost to Clark and their two draws were both at home.
With a #2 ranking Coast Guard could lose to Springfield on Saturday and lose in the first round in the Newmac and still get in. At #5 Amherst needs to be careful because they cannot lose their next two games or they would be out.
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2014&sub=11620
Sort by Rating, SOS, etc...
Agreed. Coast Guard hasn't really played anyone of note. WPI is the only semi-decent team they've beaten (but they have a very weak SOS also) - they tied the other good team, Wheaton 0-0. That's it. I don't understand how they stay at #2 with back to back ties since the last ranking...
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 29, 2014, 02:33:05 PM
We can argue about Luther all day (even though I think they are very good and have watched them several times). What can't be argued is that they were #2 in the regional rankings LAST WEEK, DIDN'T LOSE (or tie) and now are OUT. Incomprehensible.
I wonder hypothetically if they would have a .501 SOS if they would immediately be back at number 2. They could get back above .500 by playing Wartburg in the conf tourney although they also play Central who is not very good.
That's a ridiculously slippery slope, Durantula. However, I feel that it's very possible.
If only the PDF NCAA Data Sheets could be exported to a spreadsheet to see the full SOS, Mr.Right.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 02:58:41 PM
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2014&sub=11620
Sort by Rating, SOS, etc...
The Massey SOS values are irrelevant. It's the NCAA's SOS values that are used and therefore the ones that matter. The NCAA SOS values can be found in the regional data sheets they make available.
Does anyone have any knowledge about Pool B teams getting at large bids. If UC Santa Cruz wins their remaining two games (one is against trinity) and UW Whitewater win the WIAC, both teams in my mind will be deserving of a bid.
I know, FW. I'm trying to compile the data lists from all the regions to one spreadsheet...
There is only one Pool B bid, but I believe those that miss Pool B also will fall into Pool C pot.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 03:38:31 PM
There is only one Pool B bid, but I believe those that miss Pool B also will fall into Pool C pot.
Yes. Pool B bids are decided first. Teams qualified but not selected for a Pool B bid fall into the Pool C process.
Will be interesting to see if the NCAA were to pick a true at large team rather than a on paper better pool b at large team
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 29, 2014, 03:16:25 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 02:58:41 PM
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2014&sub=11620
Sort by Rating, SOS, etc...
The Massey SOS values are irrelevant. It's the NCAA's SOS values that are used and therefore the ones that matter. The NCAA SOS values can be found in the regional data sheets they make available.
Yes I realize this but I thought if someone was bored we could get a listing of the top 15 SOS in the country based on the regional ranking data sheets
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 03:36:41 PM
I know, FW. I'm trying to compile the data lists from all the regions to one spreadsheet...
Yeah, but any comparison that uses data different from what the committee is using will not help one understand how the comittee came to the conclusions/rankings they did.
And yes, it is unfortunate that the NCAA regional data sheet do not convert nicely to spreadsheets. There'a a fair bit of manual work to clean and straighten them up before you can start working with the data. I've done it in the past, but just haven't had the time in recent years.
DePauw @ Wabash ends 1-1. Well played game. Not sure who this helps or hurts, although a Denison win over OWU (unlikely) I think would put DePauw out.
On Luther, I don't care what the criteria are. If the same committee puts you at #2 one week and you don't lose then you can't be completely unranked the next week. I almost have to believe there is some kind of error that will be fixed.
NCAC with all the great games on tap tonight I have no idea which one to watch. In your opinion which one should I watch? I want a game with a couple teams that will attack...Any ideas? RUN v Montclair or Dickinson game ? Any others? I was going to watch Colby v Bates because I obxiously favor nescac but there are to many options tonight. Also, would not mind a game with something on the line
Tough luck for MSOE. Loses 2-1 to Dominican in 109th minute of 2OT.
RPI now down 2-0 to Keene St.
Mr.Right, I like to get a bank of devices going like I'm at NASA, haha. The desktop or all-in-one, next to the laptop, next to the Chromebook, with an IPad as a standby. Sometimes like to plug into the big screen TV too.
At any rate, I would watch 15 minutes of Redlands at Pomona just for fun to get a feel for some West Coast action. But then it gets crazy.
Dickinson at Muhlenberg and Montclair at Rutgers-N are probably the feature games of the night, but Denison @ OWU is worth a look (and usually OWU video is good) and Camden and Richard Stockton might be a sleeper. If you haven't ever watched Wheaton (Ill) they have a professional style production with knowledgeable but sometimes biased announcers (with great post-game coach interview win or lose) similar to Messiah. And Christopher Newport does a very good production with very good video and nice field for viewing (but I know nothing about Marymount).
I will follow Colby-Bates very closely but probably mostly via Live Stats.
Yea there are some schools that really do some excellent video work. OWU does have a great feed. I like the big screen which limits me to one game but makes for the ultimate setting providing it is a good feed.
Frostburg st crushing the hearts of York with 5 min left. CNU is fading fast... What's happened to them? Can Marymount pull off a miracle and hold this lead?
2nd yellow for Stockton's colofranson... 40 left. Disaster for them. First yellow was soft.
OWU drilling Denison.
CNU still in trouble.
Dickinson and Muhlenberg deadlocked....oh wait, Dickinson just scored.
Redlands leading Pomona-Pit late.
Rutgers-N leading 1-0 on Montclair.
Mules level with a PK. Under 20. I think I would watch that one Mr.Right.
Actually I went with my heart and got Bates v Colby on, 8th / 7th place on the line. Colby scored early and lead 1-0. Bates better pick up the pace in this one in the 2nd half as they need two goals to keep their season alive. Colby has hit the crossbar and for some reason benched their keeper midway thru the 1st half. I did not see an injury but who knows
After looking at the Great Lakes regional rankings I wanted to see why everyone was going crazy over Geneva being 7th. After looking, that might be one of the most egregious mistake in the rankings I have ever see. A 8-4-2 record with a .522 SOS with ONE good win against Carnegie Mellon and a bunch of bad losses including a 6-0 thrashing by John Carroll. It seems the region is down but I would think some of those NCAC teams like DePauw or even Hiram who have a better SOS. This region will not get more than 2 Pool C's. Loser of the Kenyon / OWU NCAC final, I assume John Carroll will win their league but if they do not they would get the other. Maybe one of the two UAA teams also gets in but it is a stretch.
Hey all new to the scene but I was hoping some one could shed some light on why Lycoming College dropped out of the Mid-Atlantic region completely... With a win in their last game against an underrated Hood College, who was tied for second in conference play at the time, taking them to a 11-2-3 record and a few teams ahead of them in the region losing it just doesn't seem make sense as too their disappearance.
Lycoming may have been bitten by the .500 SOS threshold that seems to be being used. Their SOS was right at .500 the previous week, but dropped to .497 this week. Of course, they were always a borderline team given their low SOS, so maybe the committee honestly felt upon looking it over again this week that there were eight better teams from the region.
Denison at DePauw for the last tourney spot - wouldn't you love to be a player on either of those teams this week! First half of OWU-Denison was spent primarily between the penalty areas. When OWU was able to get inside the area they scored - I think they may have only had 3-4 shots on goal in the first half. Left when the score was 3-1; Denison's lone goal was kind of fluky as a long ball was cleared out for a throw, ball tossed I the area, OWU doesn't clear and Denison curls one in off the back post.
OWU possessed very well - Denison couldn't/wouldn't keep the ball on the ground. Hoping for OWU Kenyon rematch in the tourney final. OWU still has to answer questions re their back line. They seem to be good for one or two lapses each game, and as they saw in the Rose Hulman game last year - it only takes one . . .
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 30, 2014, 01:19:25 AM
Lycoming may have been bitten by the .500 SOS threshold that seems to be being used. Their SOS was right at .500 the previous week, but dropped to .497 this week. Of course, they were always a borderline team given their low SOS, so maybe the committee honestly felt upon looking it over again this week that there were eight better teams from the region.
Thanks for the quick response,
Will the SOS rise after teams they've beaten like Rochester moved up to 4th in their region?
Seems odd that teams like Catholic, Hopkins, Haverford, and Swathmore all have 5+ losses and are ahead of Lycoming, regardless of SOS thats 3 more losses. Although I agree SOS is a big factor and teams like Lycoming do lack in that department, it feels like the committee puts a bit too much emphasis on it.
How does Geneva get ahead of Wabash???
Since schedules are not equal, SOS is always going to be very important. If you play and lose to top competition, that has to be weighted as well as playing and beating weak competition. SOS isn't perfect, but it is necessary. While teams can't always control the schedules, and even sometimes when they do set up a competitive match a few years ahead it may not pan out, if you are a "second chance" school, meaning non-AQ, you are going to need some meat on your schedule. Without it, there is a lot of skepticism about whether you deserve that Pool C second chance, or how highly you deserve to be ranked as a Pool A. Beating the weakest teams doesn't mean you are good, playing and losing competitively to good teams is a better indicator of where you belong when the playoff field is composed of those good teams.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 30, 2014, 10:39:32 AM
How does Geneva get ahead of Wabash???
Wabash seems to be victim of the SOS with .489
I guess.
Wabash has beaten Rose-Hulman, Hiram, Oberlin, Allegheny, and then #2 Kenyon. And tied DePauw. Lost to OWU (not a bad loss). Only bad loss is Denison. And only 2 losses overall and plays in a tougher conference, going 1-1-1 with the big three.
Geneva did beat an unranked CMU and next best win was Allegheny. Other good results were ties with Lycoming and Thomas More. Losses to LaRoche, John Carroll (not bad loss), Grove City, Fredonia St. Had 4 losses at time of ranking. And, btw, lost last night to Waynesburg.
I'm pretty convinced that a .500 SOS threshold is being applied as there's really no other explanation for Luther going from second in the North Region to unranked in one-week. And it would then explain the absence of Wabash and possibly others.
In the Great Lakes region there's a bunch of sub .500 SOS teams in addition to Wabash with winning pct.'s .750 or better that might otherwise be in the mix for the last spot or two (Penn State-Behrend, Thomas More, Medaille, Grove City) so the committee didn't have to go reaching for Geneva and Capital. Ohio Northern came from unranked to No. 6 because with the addition of the "vs. ranked" criteria in the second week, they all of a sudden have 3 wins vs. ranked that they didn't have the previous week. Nevermind those wins were against Case, DePauw, and Capital--not the most impressive list of ranked teams.
I also have observed over the years that the committee does not seem to get hung up on losses vs. ranked teams. It's the wins vs. ranked more so than the full record vs. ranked that they seem to key in on. At least that's my impression. And along with that, I'm not sure they really look at how "bad" your losses are and weigh some losses more heavily than others. Overall, I'm OK with both these things. You play a tough schedule and come out .500 against ranked teams, that says you belong in that group. 2-2-1 vs. ranked? I'm not going to penalize the 2 losses if being compared to a 1-0-1 record vs. ranked. And upsets happen and you can lose 1-0 to a team you outshoot 30-1. These things happen in soccer over the course of a season. Unless the committee is going to be looking at dozens and dozens of individual box scores, they can't reliably determine which losses were really "bad" losses.
The committee seems to really love SOS and wins vs. ranked and weight those two criteria very heavily. Unfortunately, both those measures are very flawed. The Ohio Northern example of wins vs. ranked teams illustrates that point very well. Depending on the strength/depth of a region, there's can be a big difference between a couple win against lowly ranked teams and the higher ranked teams, and yet you get the feeling the committee doesn't bother to look that deep on a case-by-case basis. And the SOS formula is very flawed. A quick current example is that Coast Guard's SOS is the same as Williams (.585) despite Williams adding Babson, RPI, and Skidmore to their NESCAC slate. The SOS formula is very simplistic and can't reliably capture who truly is a tough opponent. I don't think any formula ever can, but you could certainly do better then the one they are using.
The funny thing is that I fully agree with and support taking strength-of-schedule into account and I totally agree and support giving wieght to quality wins and being competitive (even if tying/losing) against top competition. But the specifics of how the committee tries to take those things into account is very unreliable and seriouly flawed in my opinion. A lot more discerment and judgment is required apart from number-crunching.
Good job, FW.
So was Luther above .500 the week before?
I don't know the details of the how they determine the SOS, but, bottom line, is Luther going to be left out of the tournament? I just looked at their schedule and doesn't look that weak to me. They have their conference games and then they played against two of the UWs and also St Olaf, Carleton and Macalester. They beat all three of the latter, which includes highly rated St Olaf. They have a sterling overall record of 15-2-1 (only losses to Loras and Wartburg). Just by the "eye test" you can tell they belong in the tournament.
Yes, Luther's SOS the previous week was .519 and then fell to .493.
One thing we all have to remember is that championship criteria is universal across D3. So the guidelines of using SOS and RROs to rank teams are used in all team sports. As is the A/B/C system. It's a fairly good system, especially when you consider that the Regional Committees meet only a couple times. The people on those committees all have other full time jobs. So this criteria, and this system, have to be both universally applicable and streamlined for time.
Would it be nice if the committee members spent as much time watching games as some of us do? Of course, but primarily they are coaching their own teams or managing their own departments at the same time. It's just not feasible. So simple metrics help distill data across a large database. There is still flexibility within the guidelines, so SOS and RROs aren't straitjackets, but they are very good starting points for both the teams and time available.
Do we argue about the last couple teams in and the first couple left out? Of course. No system is going to prevent that since everyone has an opinion. Do we quibble about the seedings? Of course, but those are also driven by money. In the end, the game is played out on the field, with the top teams included, and only the fringes being questionable. Given all the variables and constraints, we are fortunate to have things this good.
^^^^Understood, and I think most of us can live with a system that has a Wabash on the fringe (your example of last few out or last few in), but I can't accept that in the Luther example since just 7 days before the committee themselves saw fit to rank Luther at #2, and then, with no losses or draws over the next week, drops them completely out of the rankings. The Calvin/North Park switch is almost as bad, although the consequences for Calvin most likely are not as ditre as they could be with Luther. If I was a Luther fan/player/coach (I'm not) I would be outraged, especially if in 2 weeks they aren't in the tournament with several inferior teams in front of them.
Nothing is ever perfect. There is always going to be a team that feels slighted. I know in football the only RRs that count are the last super-secret ones. Therefore, much like the FBS rankings that were released this week, the preliminary rankings are irrelevant. Is soccer the same?
In terms of SOS vs the rest of the nation:
Lycoming (.497) is tied at 218 with Goucher.
Luther (.493) is tied at 224 with Howard Payne and Wilkes. IIAC teams: Loras (17th), Wartburg (83rd), Dubuque (95th), Simpson (203rd)
Wabash (.489) is tied at 237 with Ozarks, Rivier, DeSales, St. Joseph's (Maine). NCAC teams: Kenyon (40th), Ohio Wesleyan (47th), DePauw (60th), Denison (130th)
Would you rather see a third or fourth NESCAC, a fifth UAA, a fourth Centennial team, or third NJAC team again? The little guys deserve a chance, but the power conference teams that go out and schedule tough games outside of conference should be rewarded if they are both on the bubble.
NOTE:
UAA has 7 teams in the top 25 in regards to SOS: Chicago (1), Brandeis (2), Rochester (4), Emory (7), Case (8), CMU (13), Wash-MO (20).
NESCAC has 3 teams in the top 25: Amherst (18), Tufts (22), Williams (25)
Centennial has 4 teams in the top 25: Haverford (6), Swat (10), Dickinson (23), JHU is (30th). [F&M and Mules should be locks, Dickinson and those listed will battle]
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 30, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
^^^^Understood, and I think most of us can live with a system that has a Wabash on the fringe (your example of last few out or last few in), but I can't accept that in the Luther example since just 7 days before the committee themselves saw fit to rank Luther at #2, and then, with no losses or draws over the next week, drops them completely out of the rankings. The Calvin/North Park switch is almost as bad, although the consequences for Calvin most likely are not as ditre as they could be with Luther. If I was a Luther fan/player/coach (I'm not) I would be outraged, especially if in 2 weeks they aren't in the tournament with several inferior teams in front of them.
Yes, that was my beef with the committee. If this .500 was going to be in effect, why even put Luther in the rankings in the first place? That is way too much of a jump for a difference of .03 - .10
North Park SOS is at 29th vs Calvin 57th. There is no logical reason to bump NP ahead of Calvin and the same goes for Luther to be bounced.
If SOS is determined to be that crucial, then the power conferences are going to eat up this Pool C bids (especially in a year where most conf tourneys are wide open). Some of the highly rated SOS teams that reach the conf semi final or final are going to bump out the little guys that fail to win their respective conferences). Yes, it happens, but I can't remember a year where there were 30-32 teams fighting for the 20 Pool C bids.
When the brackets come out, usually the case is made for about 3 or 4 teams. Now, we will see that there are those 12 or so teams that could/should have made it.
D3soccer.com has been informed by the D-III Men's Soccer Committee that no .500 SOS threshold exists in order to be ranked. Despite our request for an alternate explanation for Luther's drop from the No. 2 position in the first North Region rankings to unranked in the second weekly rankings, the Committee declined to provide any explanation on the grounds that the committee's conversations/discussions are intended to be confidential.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 30, 2014, 01:43:47 PMI don't know the details of the how they determine the SOS, . . .
You can check out the Strength-of-Schedule (SOS) calculation in the "Strength-of-Schedule" section on this D3soccer.com webpage (http://d3soccer.com/rankings/2014/about) or go right to the source, Appendix D (pg. 45) of the Division III Soccer Pre-Championships Manual (http://d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2014/2014-Division-III-Soccer-Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf).
lastguy, IMHO 3 and only 3 Centennial teams are deserving.
In the NESCAC I can't see going beyond 3 -- Amherst, Tufts and the survivor of Midd/Will/Wes -- UNLESS we get Midd/Wes winner vs Williams in NESCAC final (and even then I'm not sure).
I can't see more than two from the NJAC unless Camden gets to NJAC final. I think Newark is in after beating Montclair.
The UAA is tough. I see Brandeis as the only clear-cut selection at the moment. I can't see giving them more than 3.
The argument that the teams in these top conferences beat up on each other I think only goes so far. In each instance above the teams in question have had some dubious losses outside their conferences.
And on the SOS I would add one thing. There are teams with lower SOSs who literally have played no strong teams, and then there are teams with lower SOSs like Luther and even Wabash, Puget Sound, Willamette, etc who have played at least some very good teams and looked good doing so.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 30, 2014, 03:20:13 PMNorth Park SOS is at 29th vs Calvin 57th. There is no logical reason to bump NP ahead of Calvin and the same goes for Luther to be bounced.
Yes, but, as you yourself pointed out yesterday, NPU has a better winning percentage vs. regional ranked opponents than does Calvin.
Although I'm obviously an NPU partisan, I'm not actually defending the decision. I'm just trying to explain what may be the reasoning behind it.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 29, 2014, 02:10:35 PMIs the North Park more of a formality that while Calvin has more wins vs regionally ranked teams, NP win percentage vs those is better (2-1 vs Calvins 3-2).
I'm not sure if the soccer committee handles this differently, but the basketball committee is given leeway to liberally interpret RRO data. In other words, it can either put the accent upon games played vs. RRO (which would favor Calvin in this case) or winning percentage (which would favor NPU in this case). I would guess that, without looking at the NCAA D3 men's soccer championship handbook, either the committee has that leeway or else is tasked with examining RRO results strictly through the lens of winning percentage.
Kenyon's Justice, Carney and Mitsuyama named as Academic All-District selections. Very deserving, and all 3 would make for great candidates for a NCAA Postgrad scholarship. Several other Kenyon seniors meet the criteria for All-District but I doubt they would ever give any school more than 3 spots. Congrats also to Bloecher from OWU for his second consecutive selection, and also to Brandeis players Savonen and Lanahan. I haven't checked out any other schools yet.
I think I mentioned this before, but Justice should be a lock as an All-American (and Savonen should receive serious consideration for his overall career at Brandeis and outstanding senior season). Justice also IMHO should receive serious consideration for national DPOY.
On a side note, Mr.Right, I don't want to get you flamed up again on the Kenyon vs Williams nonsense, but thought you might be curious to know that Mitsuyama's sister is one of the top players for the Williams women's squad.
BTW, Kenyon is 1st in the nation in goals allowed and goals against percentage.
Live! From Cougar Field in Morris, Minnesota. The Cougars are ready to start the 2nd half against St Scholastica, down 2-1.
Did you know UM-M has gotten to conference final like 9 or 10 years in a row and always lose to SSU? They won once in 2011 and made the NCAA tourney.
I love D3...and the internet. How many students would you guess go to UM-M? 15K? 10K? at least 7500? No, the answer is 1900 and Morris in a public liberal arts school and looks like a really interesting school at that.
And gotta respect the Cougars having a grass field way up there in the Northland.
Go Cougars!
Update: CSS up 5-1 now.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 30, 2014, 03:29:24 PM
D3soccer.com has been informed by the D-III Men's Soccer Committee that no .500 SOS threshold exists in order to be ranked. Despite our request for an alternate explanation for Luther's drop from the No. 2 position in the first North Region rankings to unranked in the second weekly rankings, the Committee declined to provide any explanation on the grounds that the committee's conversations/discussions are intended to be confidential.
There are a few reasons why the committee would not want to explain its thought process with regards to regional rankings just one of those being the complexity involved with such decisions. From what I have discerned, this process uses complex differential equations with unknown roots. The two diagrams below highlight just some of the difficulties the committee is faced with when assigning these regional rankings.
Luther -- Regional Rankings (Oct. 22, 2014)
http://www.undisputedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dart-Board-2.png
Luther -- Regional Rankings (Oct. 29, 2014)
http://www.undisputedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DART-BOARD-0.png
Nice job wchandy!
NYU scores to go up 1-0 on Chicago. I assume this would be the final nail for UC.
CMU and Case 0-0 at the half. Looks like even game which would be expected.
URoch looks more aggressive and getting better chances against Emory. Still 0-0.
Emory does have their whole women's (national champs) and men's (3rd behind Kenyon and Denison) swim teams in swim attire cheering them on.
Doesn't Chicago have the best SOS in the country? If they do than they would still be on the fringe even with their record
Case just scored on CMU.
And Chicago just tied it up with NYU.
CMU of all the UAA bubble teams has the least wiggle room IMO.
Chicago wins in 90th minute in horrid conditions.
Rochester and Emory game getting a bit nasty.
Chicago gets two goals after the 82 minute. Big win for them and a showdown against Brandeis on Sunday for possibly 1st place and the AQ of the UAA
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 31, 2014, 06:27:14 PM
CMU of all the UAA bubble teams has the least wiggle room IMO.
I think loser of Case @ CMU is toast.
Chicago in my opinion went from out to still with decent chance in those last 8 minutes and of course if they win the AQ it's moot point.
Wow. CMU ties it up under 10. Remember Case was a bad PK call away from getting draw at Brandeis..
Great action in the UAA today.
Emory finally scores a goal in the UAA. Last 5 minutes are gonna be wild.
And going to OT in Pittsburgh.
Emory defeats Rochester. Emory in pretty solid ground I think especially being #1 in South. Rochester now 7-5-3 with some good win against SLU, Brandeis and a tie against Oneonta but they only have two games left and I think one more loss and they will be done as a 8-6-3 record will not do it.
Quote from: wchandy22 on October 31, 2014, 05:47:33 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 30, 2014, 03:29:24 PM
D3soccer.com has been informed by the D-III Men's Soccer Committee that no .500 SOS threshold exists in order to be ranked. Despite our request for an alternate explanation for Luther's drop from the No. 2 position in the first North Region rankings to unranked in the second weekly rankings, the Committee declined to provide any explanation on the grounds that the committee's conversations/discussions are intended to be confidential.
There are a few reasons why the committee would not want to explain its thought process with regards to regional rankings just one of those being the complexity involved with such decisions. From what I have discerned, this process uses complex differential equations with unknown roots. The two diagrams below highlight just some of the difficulties the committee is faced with when assigning these regional rankings.
Luther -- Regional Rankings (Oct. 22, 2014)
http://www.undisputedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dart-Board-2.png
Luther -- Regional Rankings (Oct. 29, 2014)
http://www.undisputedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/DART-BOARD-0.png
As they say, a picture speaks a thousand words! I think that clears it all up for me. Thanks, wchandy22!
Sounds like Soboff not playing for Brandeis. 0-0 at half at Wash U.
Case and CMU closing in on a draw although CMU pressing hard. A draw probably hurts both teams.
Rochester has good chance to win last two at CMU and home with Case.
Case just missed on a great chance.
But even with 2 wins UR seems like a very borderline at-large.
Case and CMU is a draw.
Brandeis ties up UWash with 41 secs left. Going OT. Brandeis was frustrated and fairly chippy with 18 fouls to 5 and 4 yellows, but they have a ton of talent on the field. They dominated last 25 minutes. I don't think there is any NESCAC team they can't handle this year, and Tufts might be only one that can match them talent-wise but I doubt they have the resolve that Brandeis does.
Brandeis wins it in OT....really dominating last 35 minutes with wave after wave up the field and Wash U maintaining no possession at all. Wash U must be the hardest luck decent team in the country...a ton of close losses but they were outclassed by Brandeis. Judges score on a free kick and beautiful header from defender Robbie Lynch who is only 5'8 but consistently beats 6'2 kids for headers and has long youth, high school, and college careers for big moments. Brandeis has a toughness and edge this year that should serve them well. They may lose a tight one in the tournament but it won't be because they are intimidated or overpowered physically.
Addendum: And Soboff did enter game with 16 min left and played rest of match from there. They must have been trying to save him and he did make a difference with some penetrating passes right on target.
Brandeis is a legit final four and national title contender.
Ryan H's column reminded of the controversial Messiah goal against Alvernia. I meant to note this the next day after the game that the Alvernia game recap made no excuse and indeed made no mention of what happened. On the other hand, the Messiah recap reads very self-consciously regarding the play...
From the website...."Alvernia reacted in shock to the goal, as they perhaps expected a whistle from the center official to restart the play. But in contrast, Ramirez quickly placed the ball as the official looked on in approval."
Not sure I buy the part about the referee "looking on in approval" for Ramirez to go ahead and play. A heady play no doubt but clearly taking advantage over confusion that was about his own injured player. The video clip is on the website too, and the video clip conveniently skips 5-10 secs to (seemingly) minimize how it really went down, and even then you still see the injured player almost go back to the ground as Ramirez as about to take the kick.
Quote from: NCAC New England on October 31, 2014, 09:03:29 PM
Ryan H's column reminded of the controversial Messiah goal against Alvernia. I meant to note this the next day after the game that the Alvernia game recap made no excuse and indeed made no mention of what happened. On the other hand, the Messiah recap reads very self-consciously regarding the play...
From the website...."Alvernia reacted in shock to the goal, as they perhaps expected a whistle from the center official to restart the play. But in contrast, Ramirez quickly placed the ball as the official looked on in approval."
Not sure I buy the part about the referee "looking on in approval" for Ramirez to go ahead and play. A heady play no doubt but clearly taking advantage over confusion that was about his own injured player. The video clip is on the website too, and the video clip conveniently skips 5-10 secs to (seemingly) minimize how it really went down, and even then you still see the injured player almost go back to the ground as Ramirez as about to take the kick.
I'm a Messiah fan and I watched the video feed live. As it happened, I was surprised by the quick kick only because the down player was initially almost in the way, but he did get up as Ramirez positioned himself and took the kick. Messiah has been looking for and taking quick kicks of late, so no surprise there. It was only afterwards that I wondered if the defense was not ready out of concern for the downed player or at least expectation that he might need attention. But they showed the replay shortly afterwards and I didn't see any evidence that the defense was relaxing on account of the downed player and he really didn't stay down long at all. The defense seemed to be focused on and busy getting positioned. But they probably were expecting the whole song-and-dance of setting up the wall closer than 10-yds, Messiah asking the ref for 10-yards, the ref halting play and marching off 10-yds, returning to his position and finally blowing his whistle. Alvernia even had a player standing right in front of the ball directing the positioning of the wall. But Messiah never asked the referee for 10 yards nor did the referee ever halt play for the downed player. The Alvernia announcers were in shock and claimed that a free kick requires a set amount of time and that both teams need to be set. That was news to me as I thought that as long as there's been no whistle to signal a stop in play, that the kicking team could take the kick as soon as the ball was stopped and positioned to the referee's satisfaction. Only if the kicking team asks the referee to enforce the 10-yard distance would the option of taking the kick be lost until after the referee's whistle, right?
You can watch the game on the Alvernia site: http://athletics.alvernia.edu/watch/?Archive=42 The foul occurs at the 2:26:00 mark, however to jump there you may have to watch up to 15 minutes of commercials (first time it let me jump there after one commercial, the second time it was 15 minutes of commercials).
I'm going to disagree with you on this one, FW. I won't disagree that the referee didn't stop play (he should have) or that Messiah made a smart play given the situation, but there is no way Alvernia wasn't at least confused and hesitant because of the injured player (and may well have been waiting for a card). They had proven earlier that they knew how to stand in front of the ball to prevent a quick kick. And while the Messiah player gingerly got to his feet he almost went down again. He clearly was not OK and this is demonstrated by watching the video after the goal and the injured player does not celebrate at all and has trouble walking off the field. I'll put it this way...it was not the ending that the game deserved. We can blame the ref instead of Messiah.
I still feel Brandeis is not a Final 4 team. They will most likely get the easiest 1st and 2nd round pod in the country. They will also get to stay on their turf until the Final 4. They play excellent on their turf but until they can go on the road and win on grass against a Nescac then I will wait to anoint them the New England region champion and representative to the Final 4. I realize this year and last year are very different but Brandeis is basically the same team as last year where they lost to Williams at Amherst and at Tufts. They most likely will have to beat both Amherst and Tufts in the sweet 16 and Final 8. Even at home that will prove to difficult
Brandeis is not a final four team because history says, UAA will get a crap draw and/or underachieve. With that being said, Brandeis has played the toughest schedule in the nation and only has one blemish. They should be hosting all the way to KC and will be a force.
At this point my FINAL FOUR would be: Messiah, Trinity, Calvin, Wheaton.
You guys up yet? Big day in D3 soccer land.
lastguy, I appreciate your final four picks, all good candidates, but seems logically impossible. How do you get Calvin and Wheaton in when they are likely to be in the same region (or placed out West with Trinity and Loras)? Do you see one of them being moved to the New England/Northeast group?
Mr.Right, you are usually a stickler for logic. You said you won't be convinced about Brandeis going to a final four until they win away at a NESCAC on grass and yet you said you expected them to be on their home field all the way to KC. It's VERY hard to make a final four, obviously, and no team is probably likely to make it outside of Messiah (and arguably Loras until someone out West proves they can beat Loras in a huge game). The difference I see for Brandeis this year is that there is no game in their region where I would say they are less than an even or better chance. Brandeis IS better than last year, and the best NESCACs aren't quite as good as they were the last two years. Of course they could lose a tight one to Amherst or Tufts, although the biggest danger this year may prove to be an Oneonta or SLU. So far I don't think there is any question that Brandeis and Oneonta have been the two top teams in New England/New York State region.
There will be huge pick 'em games as soon as the round of 32. Once we get to the Sweet 16 most of the teams will be capable of winning or going out. Again, outside of Messiah, there seems to be more parity at the top than ever before. Barring some early major upsets, I think we are going to get some dynamite final four-type atmospheres for all of the Sweet 16 set-ups.
FW, I've watched the Messiah play a number of times. Even if Alvernia was scrambling to get in some position there is no question they were distracted and out-of-sorts. That's exactly the reason to take a quick kick, right? And I had not noticed how close the injured player was to Ramirez's set-up, which almost makes it look like a trick play. The kid's head was in the way! Anyway, if there was an injured player 30 to 40 yards behind the play I could see a "play on" situation, but in the final third, with an injured player who even though he sort of got on his feet clearly was not OK yet, I think the ref blew that non-stoppage. Now please allow me to clarify something. I like and respect Messiah's team. I've listened to some Messiah games since my criticism of the announcers, and I retract most of what I said. They have an excellent overall production, including reviews of scores around the country and comments about how other tops teams are doing, etc. BTW, are you the Flying Weasel who goes by Flying Weasel on the broadcasts? Great job if you are. And please remember that Brandeis is my team in New England and yet I wrote here that Case Western got robbed @ Brandeis by a bad PK call.
And one more thing about Ramirez. I didn't love how he took advantage of that play and he had been pretty chippy during the game, but he is an incredibly heady and clutch player. Even amidst all of the Messiah stars, he arguably might be Messiah's most important and indispensable player. One of the best players in all of D3...great, great player. And of course I can't forgive him for his 89th minute gorgeous dagger against Kenyon last year.
And nice job by D3soccer.com publishing the All-District list. I see there were at least a few schools that landed 3 players. My only potential gripe would be that there is a big gulf between a 3.4+ in exercise science or criminal justice and a 3.85 in biomedical engineering at MIT.
I suppose these situations can have the opposite effect, but I think Wheaton (Ill) and Williams both have a big psychological factor in their favor with their coaches announcing that they are in their final seasons with these teams.
I'm a huge Kentucky bball fan, and I remember in 1975 when the Kentucky team that knocked out Bobby Knight's great undefeated Indiana team in the Mideast Regional reached the NCAA final and was slated to play UCLA for the championship. That UCLA squad was one of Wooden's weakest in their great run, but the day before the title game he announced that the final would be his last game. Kentucky never had a chance (even though it was a close game).
Games I'll be tracking closely today...
All four of the NESCAC battles, as Williams, Wesleyan and Middlebury fight to stay alive for a bid. Also very curious to see what we ar going to get out of Tufts today who on paper should roll against a disappointing and wounded Conn College.
I'll check in occasionally on Christopher Newport @ Mary Washington as I wonder how much danger the Captains would be in if they lose.
I have only a passing interest in St Olaf @ Carleton but that game is an important one in the overall North picture, and apparently favored St Olaf never wins at Carleton.
Denison @ DePauw is a battle for the last NCAC tourney slot. Will DePauw show up at home in the final game for seniors like Morrison after performing below expectations? If DePauw wins this one, I would give them a decent chance to knock off OWU in the NCAC semis.
Kenyon @ Oberlin because Kenyon needs to win to avoid a return to Crawfordsville, and also to put a tiny bit of pressure on OWU to win tonight @ Hiram. Can Oberlin muster one strong effort before their disappointing season comes to an end?
In the 4:30 time slot there are two blockbuster matchups. F&M is @ Dickinson. F&M thus far pretty quietly (for being a well-known team) arguably has had the best season of any team in the country. I never would have guessed they would still be unbeaten. Dickinson needs a confidence-building big win heading into tourney time. And in the NWC Whitworth is at 1st place Willamette with the NWC AQ on the line. Apparently the Willamette needs the AQ and are at home. I am pretty sure a win would give Willamette the crown even if they lost to Whitman tomorrow (as they have the head to head advantage on Puget Sound). Big day for the Bearcats program.
At 7:00, I'm curious to see if WPI can stay in the mix by avoiding a loss to MIT. Even though it seems they should be out of the at-large picture, the regional rankings suggest Haverford @ Swat has significance (at least for the winner). i may check the live stats on that one occasionally as I find the Swat field almost unwatchable on video (similar to Stevens). I'll watch at least a few minutes of Hope @Kzoo precisely because the video is great. OWU takes on Hiram at 7:30 and I'll only watch this one if Hiram is ahead or tied late.
I plan to get locked in on Wheaton (Ill) at North Park at 8:30 for the nightcap.
After looking at Dickinson's resume it is not as impressive as the top 3 in that region. They SOS is only ok and they have 2 wins against RR but at 11-4 they need to keep winning as I am not sure they are a lock yet for Pool C.
I know what I said about Brandeis but I cannot agree at all with the poster who said they have the toughest schedule in the country. Their SOS is 2nd in the country using the formula but after Mr.Right's eye test they have a lot of CUPCAKES on their as well. Mt.Ida, Mass Maritime, Lasell, Clark and a couple others are absolutely horrible. The difference is they have won against their best opponents at home. This is a good thing but I am still not convinced they can get thru the New England region. After watching Oneonta, I was not that impressed as they can be beaten.
Dickinson may have some work to do. For one of last spots, would you take Dickinson or Rochester?
Mr.Right, who IS your pick to go to final four out of New England?
I would take neither. I think Rochester is cooked already. If Dickinson losses their resume looks like a last 4 out team.
I think New England is wide open and 5 or 6 teams have a chance. Usually there is one team from Mid-Atlantic region and one from NY region
I personally don't think Rochester deserves to get in, but they will probably win their last two, and as Mr.Right pointed out they do have some results over big teams, so I'm gonna guess they are one of last teams in with bitter complaints about the selection. I previously thought Dickinson was safe and that region is weak with Haverford and Swat amazingly next in line, but if they lose to F&M and then lose in Centennial semis they may well be out.
For someone who knows, can results in other regions (let's say for example that Calvin, Whitworth and St Olaf don't get their AQs) can that impact selections in New England and the Mid/South Atlantic, or because of D3 travel restrictions does that just bump out other teams in their own regions?
NCAC NE, you're correct about it being nearly and logically and logistically impossible but it was just a quick pick.
I haven't seen Oneonta St play this year, and that's probably a mistake on my part. From what I've seen in the past from them, very technically sound with some pace as well. I thought in 2011 they outplayed Calvin but Calvin buried their chances. In 2012 they lost in PKs to MSU and in 2013 they dominated Oberlin but couldn't find the back of the net...
MSU is very dangerous in the final third, but they missed Mike Olla vs Rutgers-Newark.
I agree that Rochester shouldn't get in and that the SUNYAC is going to get 3 in if RPI doesn't reach the LL Final.
Little late to the Messiah quick free-kick discussion. Watching the video the thing that I found to be a closer call was offsides. It looks like Payne was definitely behind the last field defender, then tried to get back onside for the free kick. Not sure if he actually managed to do it. Plus, on quick free kicks like that the AR often reacts slowly too, and advantage usually does (and should) go to the attacking team.
I do think quick free kicks are a great way for stronger teams like Messiah to get an edge and find some space against teams that sit deep and defend. It's so hard to break teams down once they're set, making any scenario where the defending team is static and slow to get in position a great chance to get in behind.
DePauw holds off Denison 3-2. DPU led 3-0 and let Denison get close. All goals in the 2nd half. Kenyon up 3-0 on Oberlin at the half. Looks like DPU will be going to OWU and Wabash traveling to Gambier. Wabash heavily favored over Wooster tonight but if they lost not sure what the tiebreaker would be with DPU.
Still trying to figure out what happened in the NESCAC. Gutty effort from a depleted Conn Coll side to hold off Tufts, and Tufts has failed to answer lingering questions about their talent-laden squad. Conn's two looked like instant replays of each other. Very exciting Wesleyan-Midd game that Wesleyan probably should have won. They let Midd score with 4 min left on a GK miscue and had the win on their foot in the PKs but missed, and then missed the the first one in the next round to lose. Amherst not especially impressive in a workmanlike 1-0 win over Colby but Williams is out of their hair and now they have home field. Kudos to Bowdoin for going on the road and getting what seemed like a deserved 2-1 win.
Looks like St Olaf couldn't get it done against Carleton.
Rutgers-Camden getting out shot 17 to 4. Still 0s, 15 min to go
Camden goal in 93rd min...
Some fun in OAC land. This morning Otterbein was forced to forfeit a victory over Baldwin Wallace from Oct 25. That changed the standings significantly, with the outcome of tonight's BW-Capital game potentially making things very interesting. If Cap wins there would be a three-way tie for third. The first tie-breaker - records against one another - is 1-1. The second tie-breaker - record against the first place team -is 0-1 for all three. None of the teams tied one another (third tie breaker) so the fourth tie breaker would be a coin toss.
If BW wins they would be tied for second with Heidelberg. They played to a 0-0 tie - the tie breaker goes to Heidelberg as they were the away team.
What a shock to see this forfeit posted on the last day of the season.
Ryan H, do you know who has tiebreaker between Wabash and DPU if Wabash loses to Wooster (down 1-0 right now) or between OWU and Kenyon if OWU somehow lost tonight?
Wabash ties it up.
F&M and Dickinson tied up at 0 in the 1st OT.
F&M just pelting Dickinson but still 0-0 in 1st OT.
Just heard 3rd hand that Kenyon has lowest goals against average for all three divisions of NCAA.
Whitworth and Willamette 0-0 and in 1st OT.
Dickinson somehow holds on for a draw.
Willamette earns a hard-fought draw with Whitworth and still (narrowly) in driver's seat in NWC with 2 games to go.
Wabash scores in the final minute or two to sneak by Wooster.
Calvin finished up the regular season with a 6-1 victory vs. an above average team in Olivet. Olivet decided not to pack the box, as most of Calvin's opponents have lately, but played aggressively the whole game, getting a goal but giving up six. That gave Calvin a 14-0-0 record in the MIAA, the first time that has been done, and a 51-3 goal differential. According to Massey, the MIAA is the sixth strongest DIII soccer conference after UAA, CICW, NESCAC, Centennial, and NE W&M.
Calvin's really coming into their own in this third year of coach Souder. Calvin's style is much different compared to the style that got them two national runner up finishes in recent years. This team is more possession oriented, with many long sequences of quick one-touch passes, but they also have a couple of very fast forwards and have scored on some through balls and breakaways as well.
The big question mark in my mind is how Calvin will do in the tournament vs. top teams. The MIAA doesn't have any top-25 teams apart from Calvin.
Haverford scored with 2 secs left in regulation to take Swat to OT and gets last playoff spot in Centennial with the 1-1 draw.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2014, 09:31:22 PM
Haverford scored with 2 secs left in regulation to take Swat to OT and gets last playoff spot in Centennial with the 1-1 draw.
Five teams make the Centennial tournament with a 4-5 play-in game. So Johns Hopkins got the final playoff spot winning the tie-breaker between them, Ursinus, and Swarthmore for the #5 seed. Haverford got the #4 Seed.
Quote from: Dark Knight on November 01, 2014, 08:11:39 PM
Calvin finished up the regular season with a 6-1 victory vs. an above average team in Olivet. Olivet decided not to pack the box, as most of Calvin's opponents have lately, but played aggressively the whole game, getting a goal but giving up six. That gave Calvin a 14-0-0 record in the MIAA, the first time that has been done, and a 51-3 goal differential. According to Massey, the MIAA is the sixth strongest DIII soccer conference after UAA, CICW, NESCAC, Centennial, and NE W&M.
Calvin's really coming into their own in this third year of coach Souder. Calvin's style is much different compared to the style that got them two national runner up finishes in recent years. This team is more possession oriented, with many long sequences of quick one-touch passes, but they also have a couple of very fast forwards and have scored on some through balls and breakaways as well.
The big question mark in my mind is how Calvin will do in the tournament vs. top teams. The MIAA doesn't have any top-25 teams apart from Calvin.
Dark Knight I agree that Calvin is playing very well right now and that Souders has done a great job implementing a possession style that seems to be delivering good results. That said, I have seen them play both @Wheaton (lose 2-3) and OWU (win 3-2) and both times Calvin looked a bit slow. So I think against quicker, more-skilled teams in the tournament, they may have trouble. But Vegter is the real deal and he has some good running mates up top with Pruis, broekhuizen and others. They are a confident team and will be a challenge come tournament time. Especially if they get to host some games on that narrow field of theirs.
Wheaton finally scores on a goal mouth scramble to go up 1-0 @North Park. Central Defender Steve
Fernandes gets credit. 12 minutes to play
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 01, 2014, 06:17:58 PM
Ryan H, do you know who has tiebreaker between Wabash and DPU?
Moot point, but I believe the tiebreaker is record versus top team, then the next team, and so on. So Wabash would have had it for beating Kenyon, and OWU would have had it for beating Wabash. Doubt OWU will be thrilled getting DePauw instead of Denison. I believe Depauw has won or tied 4 out of 5 at OWU.
My regional rankings based on secret proprietary algorithm. Dividers for each group indicate work to do to get bid.
New England
1. Brandeis
2. Amherst
3. Wheaton (MA)
4. Coast Guard
5. Tufts
_________________________________
6. Middlebury (needs to beat Bowdoin at minimum)
7. Babson (pretty good resume but bordering on too many losses; must beat MIT and a result against Wheaton would be enough?)
8. Gordon (probably played themselves out of at large picture but maybe loss in conf final enough?)
9. WPI (loss at home to MIT last night a killer; must beat Coast Guard and hope Babson falters)
10. Bowdoin (needs to win tourney or lose final in PKs)
11. Nichols
East
1. Oneonta St
2. SLU
3. Cortland St.
__________________________
4. Brockport (win over Cortland would be very helpful)
5. RPI (not sure why RPI isn't getting much at-large love)
6. Stevens (should win conference AQ)
7. Rochester (must win last two and both are winnable and then in conversation)
8. Hobart
9. Vassar
10. NYU
11. Medaille
Mid-Atlantic
1. Messiah
2. F&M
3. Muhlenberg
4. Dickinson (borderline for Dickinson but a win over Muhlenberg on neutral field should be enough and tie with F&M good result)
_______________________
5. Haverford (for me they have to win Cenntennial tourney, which is possible if get by JHU and upset F&M)
6. Lycoming (great record despite SOS and beat Rochester)
7. Eastern (under the radar with strong record)
8. Catholic
9. Johns Hopkins
10. Swarthmore
South Atlantic
1. Montclair St
2. Salisbury/CNU
3. CNU/Salisbury
4. Emory
5. Rutgers-Newark
______________________
6. Roanoke (I would have them in but there seems to be resistance so put them here)
7. Centre
8. Rutgers-Camden
9. Birmingham-Southern
10. Covenant
11. Virginia Wesleyan
Great Lakes
1. Kenyon
2. OWU
3. John Carroll
_____________________
4. Carnegie Mellon/Case (I'm leaning towards one of these two get in)
5. Case/Carnegie Mellon
6. Wabash (deserve to be here based on whole body of work)
7. Thomas More (great record)
8. Rose-Hulman (not sure on SOS but have played some strong teams...Centre, DePauw, North Park, etc)
9. Penn St-Behrend
10. Ohio Northern/DePauw
11. Transylvania
Central
1. Calvin
2. Wheaton (Ill)
_______________________
3. Dominican (slow start but played back into contention if doesn't win AQ over MSOE)
4. Chicago (one more result might do it Brandeis today would be huge and actually that might get them AQ)
5. North Park
6. MSOE
7. Elmhurst
8. Kzoo
9. Hope
North
1. Loras
2. Luther/Wartburg
3. Wartburg/Luther
______________________
4. UW-W
5. GAC
6. St Olaf
7. St Scholastica
8. UW-Osh
9. St Johns/Carleton/Macalester
West
1. Trinity (TX)
2. Whitworth (good chance this is going to be at-large)
________________________
3. Colorado College
4. Willamette
5. Puget Sound
6. Texas-Dallas
7. UC Santa Cruz
8. Pomona-Pitzer
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 02, 2014, 11:42:12 AM
My regional rankings based on secret proprietary algorithm. Dividers for each group indicate work to do to get bid.
Central
1. Calvin
2. Wheaton (Ill)
_______________________
3. Dominican (slow start but played back into contention if doesn't win AQ over MSOE)
4. Chicago (one more result might do it Brandeis today would be huge and actually that might get them AQ)
5. North Park
6. MSOE
7. Elmhurst
8. Kzoo
9. Hope
While I can't opine with as much credibility on the other regions, I have seen most of the top teams in the Central play this season. Based upon this, and giving credence to each team's record against ranked opponents (as well as winning percentage and SOS), I would offer the following revisions to your rankings:
Central1. Calvin (unquestioned cream of the crop)
2. Wheaton (Ill)
3. North Park
_______________________
4. Kalamazoo (the only remaining team with a winning record (3-2-1) against ranked opponents, including dominant wins over Chicago, Hope (twice) and a tie against Elmhurst in which their coach played their second team most of the game)
5. Elmhurst
6. Dominican
7. Chicago (could rise or drop based upon today's result vs Brandeis)
8. Hope
9. MSOE
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 02, 2014, 11:42:12 AM
My regional rankings based on secret proprietary algorithm. Dividers for each group indicate work to do to get bid.
New England
1. Brandeis
2. Amherst
3. Wheaton (MA)
4. Coast Guard
5. Tufts
_________________________________
6. Middlebury (needs to beat Bowdoin at minimum)
7. Babson (pretty good resume but bordering on too many losses; must beat MIT and a result against Wheaton would be enough?)
If it is not too much of a secret, just curious how Middlebury jumps ahead of Babson with a lower winning % and a much lower SOS.
North Park has 5 losses. For my vote they are teetering on the edge. And they lost to Dominican.
Chicago I was just about to write off but completely against the run of play they just scored on Brandeis and might get the win with only 10 min left.
Midd and Babson I guess could go either way. I see Midd as positioned to get a 3rd bid for NESCAC and I see the NEWMAC as getting 2 or 3. I think one more loss is too many for Babson especially if they lose to MIT, and I think WPI has a better set-up with fewer losses, a win against Babson and a decent shot of beating Coast Guard. No way NEWMAC gets 4.
And Chicago wins 1-0. Brandeis will be bitterly disappointed after dominating play. I have noticed a couple of Brandeis players being perhaps too chippy and on verge of losing composure. There's a fine line between being a tougher team than they have been in the past and doing something really stupid to get your team in trouble or playing a man down.
Chicago finishes as Wash U who has had such a brutal season with close losses. I can see Wash U winning that one.
Case Western is finished after a 1-0 loss to Emory, and if Rochester can beat CMU today I wouldn't expect CWRU to put up much resistance in the last game away at Rochester. Case and CMU both could be done today.
I think Chicago is probably in even with a loss at Wash U as they would be 10-6-2 with highest SOS in country.
The New England at-large hopefuls need Brandeis to win away at NYU and Chicago to lose.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 02, 2014, 02:24:51 PM
I think Chicago is probably in even with a loss at Wash U as they would be 10-6-2 with highest SOS in country.
The New England at-large hopefuls need Brandeis to win away at NYU and Chicago to lose.
NCAC New England, you may be right about Chicago, as they are now 3-3-2 vs ranked opponents. However, having seen them get outplayed by Kalamazoo (at least until the Hornets went down a man early in the second half) in a game won by Kalamazoo, I suspect they may need to win their last game at Wash U to pick up an at-large invitation.
A draw at Wash U will give Chicago the AQ. Even with a loss they can't finish lower than 2nd place in the UAA.
Watching UR at CMU now. I would guess at least 80% of UAA games are 0-0 at the half.
This is a moot point since Wabash hasn't even been ranked yet, but with Case losing and if CMU doesn't win today, I would put Wabash at #4 in Great Lakes. I can't think of any other team that should be ahead of them. CMU has had several bad results, and Wabash has two weak ties and only 1 semi-bad loss (to Denison).
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 02, 2014, 02:41:43 PM
A draw at Wash U will give Chicago the AQ. Even with a loss they can't finish lower than 2nd place in the UAA.
Watching UR at CMU now. I would guess at least 80% of UAA games are 0-0 at the half.
This is a moot point since Wabash hasn't even been ranked yet, but with Case losing and if CMU doesn't win today, I would put Wabash at #4 in Great Lakes. I can't think of any other team that should be ahead of them. CMU has had several bad results, and Wabash has two weak ties and only 1 semi-bad loss (to Denison).
Personally, I think the UAA is a bit overrated this season. Using Chicago again as an example, they are currently undefeated in the league (4-0-2), but only 6-5 outside the UAA, including a 2-1 loss at home to Olivet, one of the weaker MIAA teams this year.
All hell is breaking loose in Pittsburgh. Screams from the UR faction (bench) to get the Athletic Director. Yellows flying. Clearly two teams feeling the pressure of missing out on the post-season.
And wow, CMU just scored.
It looks like things have calmed down a bit, although Rochester's desperation is palpable and not conducive to meeting their objective. The conditions appear to be much better than they were Friday night during CM's game with Case.
UR ties it up off a set piece. Extremely intense game. Like a NCAA game.
And now looks like UR is gonna steal it. Scores again on a similar set piece 90 secs later.
Looks like that last one bounced off the keepers hands
Well, okay, maybe a little desperation is okay. UR ties it up and goes ahead on two finishes off long free kicks!
Revision in my regional rankings in Great Lakes:
Wabash jumps to #4, and by a wide margin. I can't even come up with a #5.
I would think UAA gets Brandeis, Chicago, and Emory. If UR gets a win vs case western they would have a strong chance
UWW gets the pool b bid...
UAA is a bit overrated but they are better than the Nescac this year and will get 4 teams in. Brandeis, Chicago, Emory and UR.
I agree. UR doesn't really deserve a bid, but there is no way they will not win at home on senior day against a gallant but worn down Case Western. And once in the tournament UR will not be a team anyone wants to play.
Oh no. There go my Cinderellas. Willamette and Puget Sound both lose. Will have to check and see if that will give Whitworth the AQ.
Yep, Whitworth in first place. Willamette loses at home to middle of the pack Whitman. A happy ride back to Walla Walla for the Whitties.
UWO-UWW tied 1-1 in a bit of an unexciting affair for this rivalry. The strong wind was a factor most of the game with each team putting one in while attacking with the wind at their backs. Hard to tell who was the stronger team because of this factor. UWW keeps the edge over UWO for the Pool B bid, but UWO gets the #1 seed for the conference tournament. The basically meaningless WIAC Tournament may actually have some meaning if UWW & UWO meet for a second time.
Going off that Pool B bid, UC-Santa Cruz just lost tonight to Trinity, making them 1-3-0 against Ranked Opponents. Looks like it's down to the two Wisconsin schools.
Surprisingly close game. The only two SOG the Banana Slugs yielded were a PK in the 76th minute and one in the 89th, but their keeper could not save either. Trinity had an 18-8 advantage but many of those shots were blocked.
Key Action Monday thru Wednesday
Tonight in the OAC Capital travels to Ohio Northern. Capital was having a pretty good season and even looked like a potential challenger to John Carroll at one point but the Crusaders have tanked of late losing 4 out of 5. A Ohio Northern win would give the semi-resurgent Polar Bears a shot at the Blue Streaks of John Carroll who should be safe for an at-large and may have their guard down. Ohio Northern knows a win puts a NCAA spot well within reach as they would have a very winnable OAC final.
On Tuesday the NCAC semis get underway with Wabash traveling to Kenyon. [Game moved to Tuesday because Kenyon women are also are hosting a NCAC semi.] The Little Giants have no time to be fatigued as they turn right back around for another trek to central Ohio. Wabash already has exceeded expectations by earning their first trip ever to the NCAC tournament, but these chances don't come very often and another win over Kenyon would be hard for the rankings committee that so far has stiffed them to ignore. Expect Wabash to come out confident and flying. They can come out loose with nothing to lose as anything from here is icing on a very nice cake. On the other hand, Kenyon is looking to peak at the right time. While repaying Wabash for handing the Lords their only loss would be tasty, Kenyon needs to get locked into tournament mode and will be well aware that they have a good chance to host at least one round of NCAA games. A Kenyon win also should give the Lords a relished opportunity to address their other blemish against bitter big brother rival on OWU's home turf on Roy Rike Field at the Jay Martin Soccer Complex in Delaware, Ohio.
Well, maybe. OWU on Wednesday will be entertaining the Tigers of DePauw who have a recent history of NCAC tourney success against the Battling Bishops. This year's affair in Delaware also was pretty even and deadlocked at 0-0 until about the 85th or 86th minute when All-American Bloecher nailed an EPL-quality free kick from about 25 yards out and then 2 minutes later drew a PK. DePauw is very talented and was a preseason favorite but the Tigers have disappointed so often this year I don't expect them to get a win this big now. And OWU actually will be hoping that Kenyon handles Wabash so that the Battling Bishops can rub the Lords' noses in the Roy Rike dirt while OWU adds another tournament banner to their regular season triumph.
All that said, we'll probably get a final with DePauw traveling to Mud Hollow Stadium where the Tigers and Wabash can fight over that Monen Bell thing or whatever it is. How cruel would it be for Wabash to get that far, with the final on their home pitch, and see DePauw walk away with the AQ while the Little Giants are forced to watch the big dance on streaming video?
Moving on to the rough and rugged NJAC semis, we have Kean @ Montclair and then the heavyweight clash between Camden and Newark. Camden is fighting for their lives and will throw the kitchen sink at Newark, and Newark needs a result here to feel legit and confident heading into the tournament (assuming another L wouldn't knock them out). Montclair should prevail over Kean but this is the NJAC so crazy things can happen.
Nothing is much better than tailgating at the ODAC semis. The NASCAR, dirt-tracking crowd will be out in full force as Virginia Wesleyan takes on Lynchburg and just down the road Washington & Lee faces top-seed Roanoke. Some of the best concessions and half-time entertainment on the D3 planet. Stay afterwards for the square-dancing and the free hayrides for the kiddies.
The Geneva Golden Tornadoes will be looking to prove me wrong and the regional rankings cmte right when they road trip from Beaver Falls over to Thomas More (that's in Crestview Hills, KY btw). Geneva made the regional rankings for two weeks in a row (and are the 4th seed in the President's conference) while top-seed Thomas More with a sterling 15-2-1 has looked in from the outside. Joe Namath's pregame speech to the Golden Tornadoes could make the difference. The other Prez semi features Waynesburg @ Grove City in the #3/#2 tilt.
In the Commonwealth, Lebanon Valley visits Alvernia to see who will have the honor of playing before a full house at Shoemaker Field in Grantham, PA against the two-time defending national champions. I see Alvernia losing to Lebanon Valley deep into the 2nd OT on the 'ol Nebraska fumblerooski play.
Fans of the North will be outraged if I don't mention Macalester against St Johns ("The Johnnies"). There, I mentioned it.
The Wednesday slate is too big to fit into this one post, so more later.
With the season being one of the most crazy in recent history I believe there will be plenty of upsets in conference tournaments and top teams eating up Pool C bids leaving out most of our bubble teams
While a few of us are tweaking each other about NESCAC COY, here are a few national nominations...
Parsons from Coast Guard
Keller from Wabash
Coven from Brandeis
Wagner from F&M
Topping from Muhlenberg
Brown from Kenyon
Souders from Calvin
Byrne from Oneonta
I don't know a thing about Byrne and how reality matches the written word, but I loved this linked below....
http://www.oneontaathletics.com/coaches.aspx?rc=515&path=msoc
Key Action Monday thru Wednesday (continued)
The Centennial #5/#4 game features Hopkins @ Haverford for the right to play a F&M that seems incapable of a misstep. I give Haverford a puncher's chance against F&M, so Hopkins will probably win and then defeat F&M in PKs making folks in Carlisle, PA a little nervous about the at-large picture.
In the IIAC, I thought Dubuque looked dangerous in an exciting affair against Luther, but Loras in the Rock Bowl in too much to ask. By the way, what is the difference between a Duhawk and a Kohawk (Coe), and why do these Iowa teams have these nicknames? The other IIAC matchup is a classic worthy of the sweet 16 or even an elite 8 with Luther headed to Waverly to take on Wartburg. Too close to call but the NCAA regional ranking snub of Luther may create just the right amount of edginess for Luther to prevail.
Perhaps the best semis of any conference takes place in the SUNYAC with Brockport playing Cortland and Geneseo looking to upset Oneonta. These games have implications for hopeful at-large candidates as well as the participants.
No one seems to know quite what to do with North Park, as they jumped to #2 in the Central over Calvin but seem vulnerable because one would think they can't afford more losses. Elmhurst is hungry to crowbar their way into the party, and the Bluejays could throw a wrench into plans for a North Park rematch with Wheaton (Ill).
In the Liberty, RPI has no time to feel sorry for itself over a rankings diss, as Vassar is very capable of abruptly ending the Engineers' season. SLU should be able to handle an improved Hobart team
St Olaf will be eager to move past the Carleton debacle, and GAC will be very aware that a semis stumble might put the Gusties on the wrong side of the bubble.
Hope gets a 3rd crack at Kzoo. This is a role reversal of sorts as Hope is the traditional power and even with home field beating Hope 3 times in one season seems highly unlikely for Kzoo. Hope needs this one, and then they need to knock off one of the hottest teams in the country in Calvin.
Christopher Newport @ Salisbury is one of the 3 games of the day, along with Luther vs Wartburg and Brockport vs Cortland. This is one to watch and way to close to call. In the JV game in the CAC St Mary's takes on PS-Harrisburg.
Two critical New England contests involve MIT at Babson and Roger Williams at Gordon. Babson MUST win this game. Gordon also is in a must win situation as they almost certainly have fallen off the at-large bubble to the wrong side and need the AQ.
The four UW's are playing each other. What a strange conference. They only play 4 games.
And we can only hope that MSOE and Dominican advance to the NACC final after they played Saturday to the 109th minute with Dominican getting the 2-1 win.
Game news alert --Ohio Northern's season is over. Capital wins 1-0.
NCAC, here's the background story on the "Duhawk" name.
http://duhawks.com/sports/2014/6/4/WhatsADuhawk.aspx
Thanks, and I had to fix spelling Kohawk wrong.
KoHawk background ;D
http://www.coeathletics.com/f/Kohawk_Traditions.php (http://www.coeathletics.com/f/Kohawk_Traditions.php)
Brockport v Cortland should be an entertaining game. The winner could be Tournament Cinderellas while the loser would see their clock strike midnight! An Oneonta loss might only serve to wake those boys up before the dance, but they seem pretty awake as it is. Oneonta has been really good now for a few years on the trot, but like a handful of other programs still need that big win to cement their legacy. They definitely have a shot this year.
Agreed. I have tried to really get a feel for Oneonta's field. Their video stream is really bad. Does anyone have any specifics of Oneonta's field. Dimensions? How is the grass? etc....I think Oneonta will host to the final 4 if they win SUNYAC.
You are correct about Brockport v Cortland. I would hate to be in the middle reffing this one. There will be hard fouls, cards, great chances, etc A good prelude to the NCAA's
Oneonta field is usually great, it drains pretty well whenever it rains you rarely see any puddles. I would say its about 105 - 110 by 70-75
Geez I was hoping for 120 v 80...
It could be I haven't been there in a while and I could not find any of the dimensions online
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 03, 2014, 08:19:16 PM
While a few of us are tweaking each other about NESCAC COY, here are a few national nominations...
Parsons from Coast Guard
Keller from Wabash
Coven from Brandeis
Wagner from F&M
Topping from Muhlenberg
Brown from Kenyon
Souders from Calvin
Byrne from Oneonta
I don't know a thing about Byrne and how reality matches the written word, but I loved this linked below....
http://www.oneontaathletics.com/coaches.aspx?rc=515&path=msoc
Wagner should beat out McCarty....
Parsons from Coast Guard should beat out Brandeis, although you could argue either way. As far as the NESCAC I'd vote for the Colby coach.
How about POY race? Is this Payne's to lose at this point? Who are some of the top nominees from other regions? Vegter from Calvin, Araujo from Newark, Brown from CNU, Bloecher from OWU.
A player from Oneonta St, Kenyon, Brandeis, and Trinity has to be in the race...
Who is likely to win UAA player of the year?
Vegter from Calvin is my front runner. Tough decision but I'd rate him higher than Payne. And in my opinion, Payne wasn't the most worthy recipient his sophomore year. Had a great season but I thought there were others more deserving and for what it's worth, Jack Thompson is still for me, the most valuable player on that team with Brian Ramirez being a close 2nd.
just noticed the SAA conference in the south has a tournament for 8 teams and plays Friday, Saturday and Sunday. 3 days in a row for the winner and the finals loser. That is really interesting. What is the reason behind this schedule? It is a good way to pick up unnecessary injuries
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 04, 2014, 10:07:11 AM
Vegter from Calvin is my front runner. Tough decision but I'd rate him higher than Payne. And in my opinion, Payne wasn't the most worthy recipient his sophomore year. Had a great season but I thought there were others more deserving and for what it's worth, Jack Thompson is still for me, the most valuable player on that team with Brian Ramirez being a close 2nd.
I have to agree with you. Having seen Calvin play multiple games this season, it's hard to imagine a player meaning more to his team than Vegter. He is simply a beast on the field.
I'd agree with you on Thompson, Midwest Soccer.
Vegter and Araujo are almost identical in career GPG and PPG, both play strong schedules, but Calvin has made deeper runs and most likely will make a run this year.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2014, 10:29:48 AM
just noticed the SAA conference in the south has a tournament for 8 teams and plays Friday, Saturday and Sunday. 3 days in a row for the winner and the finals loser. That is really interesting. What is the reason behind this schedule? It is a good way to pick up unnecessary injuries
Interesting. Not sure the reason except that the whole tournament is hosted by one school. The idea is probably just to get it done as expediently as possible. The SAA is one of those conferences that is spread out everywhere. If you played the first two rounds at the higher seed the travel would be onerous with lots of missed class time. It is possible that a 3 round tournament over a week would involve either traveling or playing all or part of every day of the week for the final two teams. Friday, Saturday, Sunday in one location minimizes the affect on classes. Tough schedule, but probably more feasible regarding getting kids to classes.
Understood. I thought that was the case but wanted someone to confirm. Thanks
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 04, 2014, 09:36:24 AM
A player from Oneonta St, Kenyon, Brandeis, and Trinity has to be in the race...
Who is likely to win UAA player of the year?
I think that Justice from Kenyon has to be the favorite for National DPOY. Kenyon has the lowest goals against average across all three Divisions of college soccer (4 GA in 17 GP) and he is a massive reason for that.
From an opponent perspective Thompson scares me more than any other player on Messiah. Is he back to 100%? And Ramirez for me is the most valuable if we can make that differentiation....the kind of player who refuses to let his team lose and I'm guessing has a ton of leadership qualities in "real life" as well.
Justice from Kenyon is what D3 athletics at its best is all about. No trash talk. Never says a word. Always defers to teammates in terms of the limelight. Makes every play. And an academic stud.
Chelseafc,
A defender winning NPOY is no easy task, JD Binger was the last to do it in 2008. Not to say Justice doesn't have a chance, but in 2009 OWU let in TWO goals through the regular season (later self-imploded in post season) and only one player from their back line even made All-American.
I think it was Amherst who gave up 3 goals in the entire season a few years back and didn't have a shout for a player of the year (I think that was the year Payne won which was the most open year).
Vegter also has been to a national final where he scored 3 goals as a freshman. Kid can play.
Midwest, chelseafc said Defensive POY (not NPOY) fwiw.
Fair enough, for d3soccer.com awards I would agree with that choice!
Kenyon tops Wabash in a solid, workmanlike (if less than attractive) 3-0 win. The Lords have spurts of putting passes together and looking dynamic and very dangerous, but then they often are their own worst enemy as they get undisciplined and lose their rhythm. 8 offside calls today which is an outrageous number and I believe in one stretch when the subs first came in 4 offside calls in a row. Also had 4 yellows today which is too many, along with some other unnecessary fouls. Their whole flow gets too disrupted leading to choppy play, lack of sustained possession, and resorting to too many long balls over the top. They are going to have to play better, more focused soccer for 90 minutes if they hope to do some real damage in the tournament. They are a team that needs to play very aggressively with high energy but they have to still play good soccer. On the plus side, the did rack up another shutout and Amolo is scoring again which is good news. Congrats to Wabash on a great season. The turnaround time for them after just traveling to Wooster Saturday and getting home very late that night could not have been helpful.
I was gonna say Geneva is better than I thought as they took Thomas More to 2nd OT before losing in the 109th minute. Then I looked at the box and saw they were outshot 26 to 2.
3 really good games going, all with very good video although not happy I had to pay $4.95 to get Camden-Newark. Would hate to be the ref for that game but video is great and they are playing very good, aggressive soccer.
In the ODAC W&L just tied it up with Roanoke in first minute of 2nd half and VA Wesleyan and Lynchburg are underway in the 2nd half with Lynchburg leading 2-1.
The Prez conference had two double OT games, with Thomas More besting Geneva and Grove City slipping past Waynesburg.
Ref just gave Newark a PK on a handball call. Camden not happy.
Hot weekend in the UAA coming up. Let's literally go!!! A lot of parity this year, per usual. Let's take a look at the matchups for the final weekend.
Carnegie vs. Emory: Emory should get a tournament bid, but will want to get 3 points against CMU to be sure. Emory, with arguably the number 1 ranked climate in the conference, may have some trouble in the North. Let's see if our southern brothers will be able to handle the tumultuous terror called the Pittsburgh precipitation. Keep in mind that senior defender Noah Rosen won "Athlete of the Week", let's see if he can lead the eagles to another shutout. Prediction: Emory 0-3 CMU.
Rochester vs. Case: Giving a slight edge to the cagey Rochester Yellow jackets. Case just hasn't been the same since the departure of the great Vinny Bell, famously described as a "runway jumper". Prediction: Rochester emerges victorious in a golden goal slugfest with scrappy Case Western. UR 4-3 CWRU
NYU vs. Brandeis: The Judges still have a shot at a UAA championship, and will need to win in order to keep these dreams alive. NYU has just come off of a 0 point weekend and will look to try to finish the regular season on a high. Prediction: The Judges will bounce back against slumping NYU. Brandeis 2-0 NYU
Wash U vs. Chicago: WUSTL is still at the bottom of the UAA after last weekend, but the Bears gave Brandeis a good game, and have nothing to lose against Chicago, who has a chance to win the UAA for the first time since 2009. Prediction: I like Codispoti and Chicago to continue their recent hot streak. Chicago 2-1 Wash U
Good game Lynchburg beats Virginia Wesleyan in PK's. They deserved the win as they dominated in the OT. Virginia Wesleyan was not very prepared for the PK's as they missed all 3 shots. Lynchburg's goalie was impressive
Roanoke crushed W&L. Also watched Lynchburg win in PKs. I think that ODAC soccer and the overall atmosphere are impressive.
And here comes Rutgers-Camden. Spotted Newark a PK and then Mike Ryan saves the day. He is a lethal striker. A wild scene in the last seconds with a policewoman trying to get people off the field. Those are some tough, gritty kids on these teams. I would hate to be a high seed playing Camden in one of the first 1 rounds. They've now beaten Newark twice.
lastguy, any thoughts on what this does to Newark (who I thought looked really good until they went down 2-1) and for Camden?
Camden needs to win it all and Newark is history based on he rankings. It is disappointing because those two teams deserve it and the NJAC deserves 3 teams. Those teams are historically gritty and why Nescac teams like to recruit in Jersey because of the toughness of the kids.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2014, 09:01:05 AM
Agreed. I have tried to really get a feel for Oneonta's field. Their video stream is really bad. Does anyone have any specifics of Oneonta's field. Dimensions? How is the grass? etc....I think Oneonta will host to the final 4 if they win SUNYAC.
Yes - I saw Messiah play at Oneonta in 2013 and the field was excellent. The grass surface was in great shape. Not sure of the exact dimensions but it was plenty big. I'd say it is one of the better fields in D3 and would be a excellent location to host games. If you are familiar with the terrain in that part of New York, it is very hilly so one end of the field drops off by 50-60 feet. Plenty of parking and the fieldhouse is right next to the field which is convenient if you need to go get warm during halftime. The town is a typical small college town which is nice to visit as well. Long drive to get there - I flew into Albany and then drove about 90 minutes to the town, but all in all a good place to play and spend a couple of days.
I'm not sure Mr.Right. 2nd place in the NJAC is still pretty good. Gun to your head: Newark or Babson or Middlebury or even RPI or Rochester?
And I think Camden presents the committee with a real dilemma. Since the Haverford they have really rebounded with the only loss to Monclair and 2 wins over Newark. If they lose to Montclair that is 8 losses, but they must be one of the strongest 8 loss teams in history. And I wouldn't bet against them vs Montclair in the final.
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 04, 2014, 09:24:22 PM
Hot weekend in the UAA coming up. Let's literally go!!! A lot of parity this year, per usual. Let's take a look at the matchups for the final weekend.
Carnegie vs. Emory: Emory should get a tournament bid, but will want to get 3 points against CMU to be sure. Emory, with arguably the number 1 ranked climate in the conference, may have some trouble in the North. Let's see if our southern brothers will be able to handle the tumultuous terror called the Pittsburgh precipitation. Keep in mind that senior defender Noah Rosen won "Athlete of the Week", let's see if he can lead the eagles to another shutout. Prediction: Emory 0-3 CMU.
Rochester vs. Case: Giving a slight edge to the cagey Rochester Yellow jackets. Case just hasn't been the same since the departure of the great Vinny Bell, famously described as a "runway jumper". Prediction: Rochester emerges victorious in a golden goal slugfest with scrappy Case Western. UR 4-3 CWRU
NYU vs. Brandeis: The Judges still have a shot at a UAA championship, and will need to win in order to keep these dreams alive. NYU has just come off of a 0 point weekend and will look to try to finish the regular season on a high. Prediction: The Judges will bounce back against slumping NYU. Brandeis 2-0 NYU
Wash U vs. Chicago: WUSTL is still at the bottom of the UAA after last weekend, but the Bears gave Brandeis a good game, and have nothing to lose against Chicago, who has a chance to win the UAA for the first time since 2009. Prediction: I like Codispoti and Chicago to continue their recent hot streak. Chicago 2-1 Wash U
There haven't been this many goals in the entire UAA season. Can't see a UAA defense giving up that many goals, nor an offense scoring that many.
I agree. The latter two results are plausible, but I see Rochester v Case going something more like 2-1 and CMU v Emory more along the lines of 1-0.
Alvernia gets another shot at Messiah after defeating Lebanon Valley 2-1 tonight. Game is Thursday night in Grantham
Regardless of win percentage, Camden may have bumped Newark out of the tournament here based on the two h2h losses. Camden SOS, plus record vs regionally ranked teams, I feel like Newark could be on the outside looking in.
Camden could have really benefited from VWU beating Lynchburg, but we will see...
When you play 9 regionally ranked opponents in a season out of 22 games, you must be doing something right. After losing 6 (or 7) starters, Camden is well deserving of a bid, but I'm sure they're more focused on 4peating the NJAC.
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 04, 2014, 09:24:22 PM
Hot weekend in the UAA coming up. Let's literally go!!! A lot of parity this year, per usual. Let's take a look at the matchups for the final weekend.
Carnegie vs. Emory: Emory should get a tournament bid, but will want to get 3 points against CMU to be sure. Emory, with arguably the number 1 ranked climate in the conference, may have some trouble in the North. Let's see if our southern brothers will be able to handle the tumultuous terror called the Pittsburgh precipitation. Keep in mind that senior defender Noah Rosen won "Athlete of the Week", let's see if he can lead the eagles to another shutout. Prediction: Emory 0-3 CMU.
Rochester vs. Case: Giving a slight edge to the cagey Rochester Yellow jackets. Case just hasn't been the same since the departure of the great Vinny Bell, famously described as a "runway jumper". Prediction: Rochester emerges victorious in a golden goal slugfest with scrappy Case Western. UR 4-3 CWRU
NYU vs. Brandeis: The Judges still have a shot at a UAA championship, and will need to win in order to keep these dreams alive. NYU has just come off of a 0 point weekend and will look to try to finish the regular season on a high. Prediction: The Judges will bounce back against slumping NYU. Brandeis 2-0 NYU
Wash U vs. Chicago: WUSTL is still at the bottom of the UAA after last weekend, but the Bears gave Brandeis a good game, and have nothing to lose against Chicago, who has a chance to win the UAA for the first time since 2009. Prediction: I like Codispoti and Chicago to continue their recent hot streak. Chicago 2-1 Wash U
Brandeis, if they are a quality side... should beat NYU by 3+.
Chicago is okay with a draw for the AQ, so this should a brutal game with minimal shots... I'll just call it that Chicago won't lose and snatch up that precious AQ.
Case might stay on the bus for this one, but I see a UR 2-1 win...
Emory on the road at CMU... I would say another 1-0 or 2-1 barn-burner. CMU will be playing for that extra UAA bid (with Chicago and Brandeis both safe) it's a dogfight for 3 teams to get 1 or 2 bids: Emory, UR, CMU.
On another note, Rutgers-Newark has an AMAZING live feed, but the highlights are just brutal... it's way too one-sided, so if the other team scores please SHOW IT!
And speaking of said highlights, tough PK call there with the handling of the ball.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9wArpzzJ7k around the 1:05 mark.... It's one of those, the ball played the hand, not the hand played the ball type situations.
Those hand balls have been getting called more and more. It is ridiculous.
I still say based on the rankings Newark is out and Camden needs to win NJAC. They both deserve to be in it but were given no love by the committee.
lastguy, I think Rochester and CMU probably thought they were playing for a bid and that's partly why game got so supercharged. If Rochester doesn't falter at home against Case I see the Yellow Jackets getting the bid. I see CMU as out no matter what happens with Emory and Emory also will be wanting to make sure they are in.
Babson
Middlebury
Gordon (if needed)
WPI
Brockport
RPI (if needed)
Rochester
Haverford
Lycoming
Rutgers-Camden
Rutgers-Newark
Roanoke (if needed)
Centre (if needed)
Covenant (if needed)
Birm-Southern (if needed)
Pick 4-5
Carnegie Mellon
Thomas More (if needed)
Rose-Hulman (if needed)
Chicago (if needed)
Elmhurst
Kzoo/Hope winner
St Olaf/GAC loser (barring upsets today)
North Park (if needed)
Dominican/MSOE loser
Colorado College
Pick 3-4
Gordon and RPI need to win their leagues no Pool C for them. Babson and Midd need to get to the final to even get on the bubble. Brockport needs a win today. Lycoming and Haverford are out.
UAA will get 4
NJAC will get 2 should be 3
Nescac will get 2 maybe 3
Those 3 leagues are the best in the country
I would put the Centennial right there with them (at least this year).
Tough call on Newark Mr.Right. I have them in. Can't see picking Babson, Midd, UR, RPI, etc over them. If Brockport wins today I would have Newark and Brockport at the top of that list along with Camden (if Camden loses final). Not sure who I would pick between Newark and Brockport but if the latter wins today I think both get in. I borrowed your "eye test" last night and both Rutgers teams looked like they belong.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 04, 2014, 05:22:55 PM
Kenyon tops Wabash in a solid, workmanlike (if less than attractive) 3-0 win. The Lords have spurts of putting passes together and looking dynamic and very dangerous, but then they often are their own worst enemy as they get undisciplined and lose their rhythm. 8 offside calls today which is an outrageous number and I believe in one stretch when the subs first came in 4 offside calls in a row. Also had 4 yellows today which is too many, along with some other unnecessary fouls. Their whole flow gets too disrupted leading to choppy play, lack of sustained possession, and resorting to too many long balls over the top. They are going to have to play better, more focused soccer for 90 minutes if they hope to do some real damage in the tournament. They are a team that needs to play very aggressively with high energy but they have to still play good soccer. On the plus side, the did rack up another shutout and Amolo is scoring again which is good news. Congrats to Wabash on a great season. The turnaround time for them after just traveling to Wooster Saturday and getting home very late that night could not have been helpful.
While a disappointing outcome for Wabash, this has been a fantastic season. The soccer program at Wabash has struggled for many years. Coach Keller has made tremendous progress since arriving in Crawfordsville in 2012 and is doing all of the right things to build a sustainable program. While there may be some bumps in the road in the future, hopefully this season signals the addition of another competitive program in the NCAC. I hope the conference recognizes Chris for the team's success this year.
Based on the eye test I would put UR about 6 or 7 spots ahead of Camden in the Pool C they lose to MSU. Rochester is already regionally ranked and should probably be #4 in the East rankings, whereas Camden hasn't even cracked the top 7 in the South Atlantic.
Rochester should be 9-5-3. Quality wins: Brandeis, SLU, CMU. Draw vs Oneonta St. Bad losses: Morrisville St, NYU.
Rutgers-Camden 13-8-1. Quality wins: Rutgers-Newark (2x), Eastern. Bad losses: Cabrini, Rowan.
I agree with you Mr. Right that UAA will get 4, NESCAC 3, NJAC 2 or 3, and Centennial 3.
Newark only has one quality win (MSU), and in my opinion would be on the bubble. Is that win over MSU enough to get them in? The cancelled game vs Stevens is going to hurt their chances as well.
So lastguy, based on that analysis, and if MSU beats Camden, how do you get 2-3 from NJAC in the tournament?
And would you also have Babson and/or Middlebury ahead of Newark and Camden?
You're probably correct about UAA getting 4 although seems like 1 too many.
After a quick look, in no particular order for Pool C spots that fill up pretty quick:
Brandeis/Emory/Rochester/Chicago (1 AQ, 3 pool C).
Tufts
Dickinson/Mules/F&M (1 AQ, two Pool C)
CNU/Salisbury
Middlebury/Amherst (AQ and Pool C)
OWU/Kenyon
Loras/Wartburg
Coast Guard/Wheaton MA
Cortland St
Brockport
Camden
Newark
Hope
RPI
Babson
Centre
North Park
Ok that is a bit more accurate. The bottom half of those teams have work to do starting tonight. Eye test I like those NJAC teams better than UR, RPI , Brochport, babson, Midd etc.
However, they will not get in based on the rankings. The most losses a team has had is 6 to get a Pool C with no ties. Camden needs to win it. Brockport has to many ties and they need to beat Cortland. Newark deserves to be in but they are history
Williams got in last year with a 10-6 record after losing to Amherst twice so Newark "could" have a chance. Williams also made it to the NESCAC final, had a stronger SOS whereas Newark this year didn't
Also, that 60% WP is be on par with Rutgers-Camden record this year.
Newark's SOS is their downfall. They will be out.
MSU's webpage on has a live stats link. Here's to hoping this one gets streamed.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 10:57:24 AM
After a quick look, in no particular order for Pool C spots that fill up pretty quick:
Brandeis/Emory/Rochester/Chicago (1 AQ, 3 pool C).
Tufts
Dickinson/Mules/F&M (1 AQ, two Pool C)
CNU/Salisbury
Middlebury/Amherst (AQ and Pool C)
OWU/Kenyon
Loras/Wartburg
Coast Guard/Wheaton MA
Cortland St
Brockport
Camden
Newark
Hope
RPI
Babson
Centre
North Park
So out of this grouping, I see 10 definites for Pool C -- 2 from UAA with Rochester still on bubble and presuming Chicago is safe even with a loss to Wash U; Tufts; 2 from Centennial; CNU/Salisbury loser; OWU/Kenyon loser (assuming DePauw doesn't win AQ); Loras/Wartburg loser (if Luther doesn't win AQ); Coast Guard/Wheaton loser; and Cortland.
So for me in your list that leaves Rochester, Middlebury (I think they have to beat Bowdoin at least), Brockport, Camden and Newark (and MSU would make 11 above if they lose final), Hope, RPI, Babson, Centre, North Park.
Not sure why you have Hope in there, and I would add Luther, St Olaf/GAC loser, Colorado College, WPI to the mix....
So for last 7-8 Pool C spots I would be choosing between (in no particular order) -- Rochester, Middlebury, Babson, Brockport, Camden, Newark, RPI, Babson, WPI, North Park, Hope, Centre, Luther, St Oaf/GAC loser, Colorado College, and for fun I'm going to add Dominican (if they lose), Roanoke (if they lose), Carnegie Mellon, Thomas More (if they lose), John Carroll (if they lose), and 1 wild card that will be unexpected (like a Gordon, Elmhurst, Covenant, Catholic, etc).
Does anyone want to be bold and predict who the top seeds in each region would be if the bracket was made today? First round bye teams?
First round bye teams would be Messiah, Trinity, Oneonta St. Not sure on the field if there will be 3 or 4 byes.
I believe there were talks about Oneonta St. field earlier. Do they have the venue to support possibly hosting all the way through. If Brandeis had won the AQ (which they still can), they could possibly get the other bye.
Don't know about byes, but seems to me that Kenyon and Calvin are battling for the top seed and hosting in that region with Wheaton (Ill) lurking if both stumble.
For the last 7-8 slots left, I'll start with taking 1 of the Rutgers teams and whoever fares better between Babson and WPI (Babson of they beat MIT and WPI loses to Coast Guard). I'm putting Luther through regardless of the rankings. That leaves me with 4-5 slots left. I'm taking loser of St Olaf/GAC and I'll take North Park because they have been ranked so highly. That leaves 2-3 slots. And the remaining candidates on my list (presuming John Carroll does win AQ would be Rochester, Middlebury, Brockport, RPI, Colorado College, Centre, Hope, the other Rutgers team, Carnegie Mellon, Roanoke (if needed), Dominican (if needed), and a wild card (Thomas More, Gordon, Elmhurst, Kzoo, etc). If Luther really is not going to get a bid then we're talking 3-4 slots out of the above. Assuming 4 slots left, I'm going to take Rochester (because no one thinks they aren't getting in), Middlebury (if beats Bowdoin), Brockport (if they win today), and probably Colorado College.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 05, 2014, 12:03:53 PM
For the last 7-8 slots left, I'll start with taking 1 of the Rutgers teams and whoever fares better between Babson and WPI (Babson of they beat MIT and WPI loses to Coast Guard). I'm putting Luther through regardless of the rankings. That leaves me with 4-5 slots left. I'm taking loser of St Olaf/GAC and I'll take North Park because they have been ranked so highly. That leaves 2-3 slots. And the remaining candidates on my list (presuming John Carroll does win AQ would be Rochester, Middlebury, Brockport, RPI, Colorado College, Centre, Hope, the other Rutgers team, Carnegie Mellon, Roanoke (if needed), Dominican (if needed), and a wild card (Thomas More, Gordon, Elmhurst, Kzoo, etc). If Luther really is not going to get a bid then we're talking 3-4 slots out of the above. Assuming 4 slots left, I'm going to take Rochester (because no one thinks they aren't getting in), Middlebury (if beats Bowdoin), Brockport (if they win today), and probably Colorado College.
I will be very interested to see if Luther reappears in this week's regional ranking. If not, I think they are pretty much toast when it comes to a Pool C bid. My guess is they aren't in the rankings again due to low SOS, which only dropped after their most recent match. likely Luther's only way into the dance is the conference AQ.
It seems every year, that SOS plays very heavily into the selection process, and its next to impossible for a team to earn a Pool C if they do not appear in the regional rankings. The only way I see Luther overcoming that hurdle is to win the AQ.
Eastern still not in the Mid-Atlantic region... .492 SOS
Lycoming in with .504 SOS
Tufts falling below Babson is madness and Middlebury also dropping??
Newark bumping that high to 3 while MSU drops from 2 to 7 vs a regionally ranked opponent.
Luther still getting boned with .488 SOS
Looks like Noke is also in a must win situation.
Luther did not make the regional rankings again for the North, most likely opening up a C bid.
Agreed. Tufts below Babson is insanity....their first loss since September (and that was a loss to Brandeis) drops them to 6th? I don't get it...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
Newark bumping that high to 3 while MSU drops from 2 to 7 vs a regionally ranked opponent.
Wow! Montclair State would appear to be in a must-win NJAC title situation! Covenant better than MSU?!?! Centre with their eight blemishes?!?! Crazy!
I'll have whatever the ranking committee's having
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 05, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
Agreed. Tufts below Babson is insanity....their first loss since September (and that was a loss to Brandeis) drops them to 6th? I don't get it...
4th in the NEWMAC, 5th in the region! Madness!
FW or lastguy, I was hoping one of you would provide some rationale for these rankings.
Babson over Tufts? Babson did play some very good teams (Oneonta, Brandeis, Williams, Bowdoin, WNEC) but also had more than their fair share of cupcakes (Mt. Ida, Lesley, St Joe's (ME), Clark, Lasell, Emerson). They are leading 1-0 at half with MIT which based on this ranking should get them in?
Montclair at #7??? Newark at #3? What possible rationale?
And obviously that first week the cmte made a clerical mistake putting Luther at #2. The SOS and no losses thereafter can't account for going from #2 to nothing.
Case Western still at #4 in Great Lakes? Wabash still didn't crack the rankings.
My guess would be that because MSU is 0-4 vs regionally ranked teams. SOS is .563 compared to Newark .557 (2-2 vs RRT) with the h2h loss. But then why/how could Newark bump over Covenant who is 1-1 vs RRT and .541
Tufts SOS is lower than Babson
When teams are fluctuating like this, will these "secret" rankings come in to play, FW?
I can't think of any logical explanation, NCAC NE.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 05, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
Agreed. Tufts below Babson is insanity....their first loss since September (and that was a loss to Brandeis) drops them to 6th? I don't get it...
Agree....I know they lost to Conn last weekend in the playoff upset, but Tufts severely dominated Conn in the 2nd half and the statistics point this out....Tufts is a very good team who lost a nail biter to a decent team in a driving rainstorm on a lousy grass field....Tufts, if the ball bounced their way, could have beat Conn 4-2...still having Tufts continue to slide down as far as they did is puzzling....as is having Coast Guard ahead of Amherst which is complete craziness.
Another head-scratcher: Hope is ranked in the Central, and Kalamazoo is unranked. If one looks purely at the listed criteria (winning %, SOS and results versus ranked opponents), Hope is slightly ahead of Kalamazoo in the first two and tied in the the last one. However, Kalamazoo defeated Hope twice in head-to-head play, including this past Saturday. One would think head-to-head play would be the best indication of how two teams stack up, but apparently it is not even considered by the committee. The rankings appear to be based solely upon an algorithm involving the listed criteria and nothing else.
Tufts being below Babson is ridiculous.
I know that—a few years back—I always felt that Brandeis got slighted in relation to other NE programs when discussing national rankings/etc., but I feel that in the past two years the Judges have been given their due (and, dare I say, perhaps even been a bit overrated at times.)
FWIW, Brandeis played both teams. While both were 2-0 wins for the Judges, I will say that Tufts could have easily snuck that game (and that was at Brandeis' turf.) The Babson game, meanwhile, could have been 5-0 or 6-0, such was Brandeis' dominance. Granted, Babson has beaten Bowdoin (whom Tufts drew with) and MIT (whom Tufts tied), but they also lost to WPI (at home) and Wheaton. In the end, though, I guess it's results that matter. Still, even then, I think Tufts should be above Babson.
Also, anyone know what happened to Sean Bingham of MIT? He scored 16 goals in '12 and 21 in '13, but only has 12 this year. Haven't been following them but he is a very good player and always a threat I look out for.
OK, so re-grouping, looks like at large teams (at the moment) are....
2 Centennial teams, Brandeis/Chicago, EMORY, Wheaton/Coast Guard, Oneonta/Cortland, CNU/Salisbury, Kenyon/OWU, Wheaton/North Park, Loras/Wartburg = 10
And then...Babson, Tufts, Rochester, probably still Brockport, Rut-Newark, Covenant (if needed), St Olaf/GAC = 7
With 1 spot left from among UW-W (if needed), WPI, Gordon, RPI/SLU, Haverford, Centre, Montclair, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Hope/Calvin, UC Santa Cruz
And the teams currently looking like Dick Vitale will be screaming about getting left out -- Luther, Middlebury, Montclair (if lose to Camden), Rut-Camden, and Roanoke (if lose to Lynchburg)
Thanks for catching that lastguy.....and St Olaf may be on their way OUT...and another spot gone if SLU loses!
And you're forgetting Emory.
SLU heading to OT vs Hobart...
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2014, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
Newark bumping that high to 3 while MSU drops from 2 to 7 vs a regionally ranked opponent.
Wow! Montclair State would appear to be in a must-win NJAC title situation! Covenant better than MSU?!?! Centre with their eight blemishes?!?! Crazy!
Not so Crazy...Who has MSU beaten( camden??) Lost to messiah, wheaton, Newark. Centre lost to Kenyon, Thomas more and tied Emory and beat the same Newark team MSU lost too. The NJAC as a conference was 0 wins against southern teams. Maybe MSU should schedule games with southern teams instead of Hunter, Brooklyn and CCNY as these big wins did nothing for SOS.
Centre also tied OWU.
Quote from: mjan on November 05, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2014, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
Newark bumping that high to 3 while MSU drops from 2 to 7 vs a regionally ranked opponent.
Wow! Montclair State would appear to be in a must-win NJAC title situation! Covenant better than MSU?!?! Centre with their eight blemishes?!?! Crazy!
Not so Crazy...Who has MSU beaten( camden??) Lost to messiah, wheaton, Newark. Centre lost to Kenyon, Thomas more and tied Emory and beat the same Newark team MSU lost too. The NJAC as a conference was 0 wins against southern teams. Maybe MSU should schedule games with southern teams instead of Hunter, Brooklyn and CCNY as these big wins did nothing for SOS.
And to your point, who has Centre beaten? What's their quality WIN, DePauw?
Who has Covenant beaten other than Rutgers-Newark? They lost to Methodist but did beat NC Wesleyan.
Emory will fall in the 2nd round of the NCAAs, much like the UAA always does. Eat up bids and rarely reach the Elite 8.
MSU might schedule cupcakes, but they still have been to two elite 8s and a final four in the last 3 years. Using Newark's stumble early on is a minute sample size. You can argue for the Camden losses to CNU and Lynchburg, but I think you are referring more to the deep south here.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 04:05:59 PM
Quote from: mjan on November 05, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2014, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
Newark bumping that high to 3 while MSU drops from 2 to 7 vs a regionally ranked opponent.
Wow! Montclair State would appear to be in a must-win NJAC title situation! Covenant better than MSU?!?! Centre with their eight blemishes?!?! Crazy!
Not so Crazy...Who has MSU beaten( camden??) Lost to messiah, wheaton, Newark. Centre lost to Kenyon, Thomas more and tied Emory and beat the same Newark team MSU lost too. The NJAC as a conference was 0 wins against southern teams. Maybe MSU should schedule games with southern teams instead of Hunter, Brooklyn and CCNY as these big wins did nothing for SOS.
And to your point, who has Centre beaten? What's their quality WIN, DePauw?
Who has Covenant beaten other than Rutgers-Newark? They lost to Methodist but did beat NC Wesleyan.
Emory will fall in the 2nd round of the NCAAs, much like the UAA always does. Eat up bids and rarely reach the Elite 8.
MSU might schedule cupcakes, but they still have been to two elite 8s and a final four in the last 3 years. Using Newark's stumble early on is a minute sample size. You can argue for the Camden losses to CNU and Lynchburg, but I think you are referring more to the deep south here.
Centre at least scheduled and tied teams that are currently ranked regional which is more than MSU/NJAC did.
Schedule cupcakes and pay the price, especially in a weak conference. Live with the history all you want. Next year maybe your MSU/NJAC teams grow a set and come south to play so you don't have to live in the past so much.
If the UAA has to play Messiah again it may just lose again same can be said if MSU plays them again. Alot of the final eight is luck of where you are placed. If you make it past the first round tough to argue you don't belong. And if you can't beat Emory you might as well keep taking shots at them on this board.
I think the argument above is a little off-base. The argument (and this is why Luther still makes no sense) doesn't seem tied so much to who MSU played or who Centre played because in the previous two weeks MSU was #3 and #2 regionally, way ahead of Centre (and a bunch of other teams). It's bizarre to be #2 one week and then #7 when the only blemish is to a team that got moved up to #3.
I assume each region has its own committee. Are there big variations between how committees reach their decisions?
And does anyone know how it is decided whether the 1st and 2nd rounds are played Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun?
If I am not mistaken I believe the religious schools (Messiah, Wheaton, etc.) play Fri/Sat avoiding Sunday games. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Potential at-large teams can breathe a small bit of relief as John Carroll advances over Capital and I don't think the other two semifinalists are capable of beating the Blue Streaks.
GG33, does that apply to all of the religious schools? And does that apply even when they aren't hosting? And so is the preference Sat/Sun UNLESS there is a religious school in the group?
When Loras hosted Calvin in '11 and Wheaton in '12, the games were Friday/Saturday instead of Saturday/Sunday, which to my understanding is the preference.
Off the top of my head, I don't know how many schools in DIII follow this that would be in the NCAA Tournament.
Interesting. I know last year Wheaton hosted the first two rounds and it was definitely a Fri/Sat and then Messiah hosted the sectional and it was Sat/Sun. I assume the candidates are Wheaton, Hope, Calvin, Messiah, Gordon. Other other big names I'm missing?
Also another National Player of the Year candidate is Brian Potocnic from John Carroll. Sitting on 20 goals and 12 assists currently. 40 goals and 34 assists in his career. He is a special player who is carrying that JCU team which is very capable of making a deep run in the tournament. Should have been an All-American last year but JCU not making the tournament didn't help his case.
He's been the best all around player in the OAC the last 2 years, arguably 3.
And as I type this OWU takes an early lead on DePauw less than 2 mins into the game on an absolute bomb of a volley from 20 or so out.
**DePauw ties it up on a header off corner
***OWU re-takes lead off a Colton Bloecher header. Great ball in from #17
I was listening to national anthem and looked up and it was 1-0 OWU.
OWU looking very crisp and sharp with good combination play and creating multiple dangerous chances. In other words, looking like how an in-form OWU team usually looks.
DePauw needs to get to halftime only down 1 and re-group, but not sure they can keep OWU from a 3rd goal right now.
DePauw almost ties it under 10 secs of 1st half as GK was out and beat but OWU CB cleared a header going on off the line. 2-1 OWU at the half. Excellent video feed and good perspective on the action.
Best part is there is no announcers!
Yeah, but that one OWU fan is annoying.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 05, 2014, 05:55:52 PM
If I am not mistaken I believe the religious schools (Messiah, Wheaton, etc.) play Fri/Sat avoiding Sunday games. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
To my knowledge, Wheaton (IL) and Calvin are the only two schools that will not play tournament games on a Sunday.
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 05, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
To my knowledge, Wheaton (IL) and Calvin are the only two schools that will not play tournament games on a Sunday.
To clarify this a little bit. Nearly all games will be played on Saturday and Sunday except for those teams that are placed into a group/site at which Wheaton or Calvin are placed. Those games will be played on a Friday and Saturday.
Messiah used to do it. They refused to play on Saturday and Sunday only the Friday / Saturday. In 2006 they forced Williams to play at 11am on a Friday morning. There was no crowd because students were in classes. Meanwhile the coaching staff of Messiah would then go scout the other teams that played on Sunday in a different region. It was a complete joke. They took FULL advantage of it. Finally opposing coaches caught on and put pressure on the NCAA to do something about it. I thought that rule was still in effect. Personally, if these schools cannot conform to the NCAA rules they should not be allowed to play in the tournament. They should start a different tournament
OWU 3 DePauw 1 with about 13 left. OWU center back picks off an errant pass and goes in transition and does a great 1-2 with Colton Bloecher for the goal. Very nice goal
**Depauw pulls 1 back. 3-2... 7 minutes left
OWU now in firm control, up 3-1 under 10. DePauw had a couple of good chances to draw even but OWU has been a step quicker all over the field and very sharp. Pretty flawless OWU performance.
The final should be be excellent with a great atmosphere.
And just as I hit send DePauw gets one back with 8 to go. 3-2. And then OWU almost scores 15 secs later.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 05, 2014, 05:55:52 PM
If I am not mistaken I believe the religious schools (Messiah, Wheaton, etc.) play Fri/Sat avoiding Sunday games. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Not true - Messiah has played Sunday games both weekends for at least the past several seasons. Both hosting and away. I know Wheaton did a Fri/Sat last year. Not sure about Calvin but I believe they have played Sundays as well.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2014, 08:40:31 PM
Messiah used to do it. They refused to play on Saturday and Sunday only the Friday / Saturday. In 2006 they forced Williams to play at 11am on a Friday morning. There was no crowd because students were in classes. Meanwhile the coaching staff of Messiah would then go scout the other teams that played on Sunday in a different region. It was a complete joke. They took FULL advantage of it. Finally opposing coaches caught on and put pressure on the NCAA to do something about it. I thought that rule was still in effect. Personally, if these schools cannot conform to the NCAA rules they should not be allowed to play in the tournament. They should start a different tournament
Just curious, but is there something wrong with playing on a Fri/Sat instead of a Sat/Sun?
I promise (almost) that I will not mention this Luther non-ranking again. I compared their schedule to Wartburg. Played Carleton and Mac and two UWs. Virtually identical and yet Wartburg with a less sparkling record is ranked #2. Also as noted in another thread no way Gordon's schedule is tougher than Luther's and yet they have a significantly higher SOS. Something is not working.
Final: OWU 3 DePauw 2
Disappointing season for the Tigers. Curious if any behind the scenes stuff derailed their season cause they should have been better and they lost 8 times this year.
OWU was the better team today, but they let in 2 pretty questionable goals.
The OWU vs Kenyon final should be a good one. Rematch of last years game.
Wouldn't be surprised to see it decided in OT or PK's...but I think both are absolute locks for the NCAA tournament. I'm hoping that the NCAA doesn't put them in the same pod though like 2010 when they went all the way to York (PA) to play each other in the 2nd round. Let them play some different blood.
No, KnightFalcon, nothing wrong, but does make planning difficult.
And I wonder if KZoo will sneak past Hope in the secret regional rankings after dispatching Hope for the 3rd time in a row (which is not an easy task). Congrats to KZoo who may have knocked another at-large team off the bubble.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 05, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2014, 08:40:31 PM
Messiah used to do it. They refused to play on Saturday and Sunday only the Friday / Saturday. In 2006 they forced Williams to play at 11am on a Friday morning. There was no crowd because students were in classes. Meanwhile the coaching staff of Messiah would then go scout the other teams that played on Sunday in a different region. It was a complete joke. They took FULL advantage of it. Finally opposing coaches caught on and put pressure on the NCAA to do something about it. I thought that rule was still in effect. Personally, if these schools cannot conform to the NCAA rules they should not be allowed to play in the tournament. They should start a different tournament
Just curious, but is there something wrong with playing on a Fri/Sat instead of a Sat/Sun?
DID you not read my post. I gave you three good reasons why there is plenty wrong with it.
Some great late action with the two Iowa games and North Park and Elmhurst deadlocked at 1-1. Loras in OT now and Wartburg up 1-0 late.
Elmhurst advances over North Park in PKs 7-6.
Is North Park in trouble? Is North Park better than Luther?
Is Babson better than RPI?
Quote from: blooter442 on November 05, 2014, 02:57:52 PM
Tufts being below Babson is ridiculous.
FWIW, Brandeis played both teams. While both were 2-0 wins for the Judges, I will say that Tufts could have easily snuck that game (and that was at Brandeis' turf.) The Babson game, meanwhile, could have been 5-0 or 6-0, such was Brandeis' dominance. Granted, Babson has beaten Bowdoin (whom Tufts drew with) and MIT (whom Tufts tied), but they also lost to WPI (at home) and Wheaton. In the end, though, I guess it's results that matter. Still, even then, I think Tufts should be above Babson.
Using Babson and Tufts as an example, the problem for the committee is that they have identical winning % while Babson has a stronger SOS. Despite the possibly accurate perception that Tufts is the better team, how do you justify ignoring the numbers on the data sheet? I would imagine that this type of scenario is being played out in other regions as well.
Elmhurst looked to be the better team in that game
The East will be interesting to me. They usually do not go 4 or 5 deep but they may this year. Oneonta,SLU and Cortland are locks. UR with a win over Case will be in and RPI now is squarely on the bubble. What to do if UR lose to Case who according to the new rankings are very much still alive. Does the UAA actually get 6 TEAMS in? They might because top teams are not losing in their tournaments like last year and New England which usually gets the most teams is DOWN. If RPI can get a tie up at SLU they will likely get their bid
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 05, 2014, 09:10:00 PM
No, KnightFalcon, nothing wrong, but does make planning difficult.
And I wonder if KZoo will sneak past Hope in the secret regional rankings after dispatching Hope for the 3rd time in a row (which is not an easy task). Congrats to KZoo who may have knocked another at-large team off the bubble.
I was at the game between Kalamazoo and Hope. Unlike their first two meetings, which Kzoo dominated, this one was fairly even from start to finish, with the Hornets' goalkeeper proving to be the difference. The kid should probably get some All America consideration after the season he's had. I still can't fathom how the committee placed Hope fourth in the Central this week and left the Hornets completely off the map given their two head-to-head victories. After finishing third in the conference and failing to reach the title game, I would say Hope's bubble has now burst.
If Hope got in now and Kzoo didn't there should be a federal probe.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2014, 09:14:39 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 05, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2014, 08:40:31 PM
Messiah used to do it. They refused to play on Saturday and Sunday only the Friday / Saturday. In 2006 they forced Williams to play at 11am on a Friday morning. There was no crowd because students were in classes. Meanwhile the coaching staff of Messiah would then go scout the other teams that played on Sunday in a different region. It was a complete joke. They took FULL advantage of it. Finally opposing coaches caught on and put pressure on the NCAA to do something about it. I thought that rule was still in effect. Personally, if these schools cannot conform to the NCAA rules they should not be allowed to play in the tournament. They should start a different tournament
Just curious, but is there something wrong with playing on a Fri/Sat instead of a Sat/Sun?
DID you not read my post. I gave you three good reasons why there is plenty wrong with it.
Yes, I'll admit to having read your post, and it is apparent that you have an old grudge. But what I was really wondering was how any team that plays on a Friday/Saturday has an advantage or disadvantage compared to one that plays a Saturday/Sunday schedule
I do not have an old grudge. It simply was not fair. The advantage is being able to scout your next opponent on the SUnday after your games. It is a major advantage on the east coast. Coaches across the country were complaining that Messiah's coaches were doing this
So you are saying that you can't scout on Friday or send someone to scout ...or watch video? And what are "coaches across the country complaining" about now? Seems like having to play on a Sunday hasn't impacted Messiah a bit.
Sorry - I'm just not seeing this big advantage from playing F/S over S/S. Ask Wheaton if it gave them an advantage last year... or Kenyon
You are missing my point. If Messiah plays on Friday and Saturday and the other 4 teams from a different pod play on Saturday and Sunday, Messiah can watch the winners play on Sunday. On a Friday no coach is going to watch 2 different games if 1. they have not even played yet and 2. will be at practice getting ready for their games. Meesiah would finish their pod and win it then go scout another pod on Sunday. It is a distinct advantage
Apparently, not much of a "distinct advantage". Otherwise, how do you explain Messiah's greater level of success AFTER they started playing on Sunday than before? And do you really think the Kenyon coaching staff, after playing in Wheaton, IL late Saturday night last year then suddenly made the 15 hour+ drive to Salisbury to watch Messiah & Salisbury play Sunday afternoon in person? Or that the Messiah & Salisbury coaching staffs completely ignored the video feed of that Kenyon/Wheaton game on Saturday night? And isn't it possible that they sent someone else to watch in person?
I will say, however, that this would make an interesting thesis - assuming you could get a large enough sample size - to check the winning % of F/S teams the following week vs teams that had played S/S
"Also another National Player of the Year candidate is Brian Potocnic from John Carroll. Sitting on 20 goals and 12 assists currently. 40 goals and 34 assists in his career. He is a special player who is carrying that JCU team which is very capable of making a deep run in the tournament. Should have been an All-American last year but JCU not making the tournament didn't help his case."
He had three chances yesterday - made two. He reminds me of Ethan Finlay of the Columbus Crew - give him an inch . . . both scoring strikes yesterday were technically beautiful. His read of the game - where to sit in, find spaces, receive the ball - is sooooo good. He can handle himself physically - not a whiner when receiving contact - keeps playing. Would love to have him on the Crew!
JCU can attack for sure, but if not for two goal line clearances - one by the keeper and one by a defender - they would have lost this game. Strong statistical dominance can be easily undermined by momentary lapses in the back. This will be - and perhaps always has been - the story of winning the tournament: defending your net and making the fewest mistakes.
I'm going to back Mr. Right on that point, even though it's moot now. Messiah was notorious for claiming a religious exception to playing on Sundays then coming to watch opposing teams live. And just because they've remained successful doesn't mean it was acceptable or fair - the New England Patriots stayed toward the top of the NFL after SpyGate but that doesn't mean it was okay.
And it was a big advantage. If your team plays Saturday/Sunday, you're not going to drive to watch a team on Friday (the day before your game) or Saturday (the day of your game). Yet Messiah got to watch your team live, which as a coach is an absolute advantage. Adding insult to injury, IMO, is that they were claiming a religious exception to playing and then using it to scout. I have no issues with the religious aspect, but if you want Sundays off then you should be taking Sundays off and not using religion as an excuse for a competitive advantage.
However, while I'm not up to date on the current rules I know OWU has hosted Friday/Saturday pods as recently as 2011. So it could have changed to letting schools pick Friday/Saturday or Saturday/Sunday.
Kenyon and OWU should both be locks at this point, especially if John Carroll takes care of the OAC title. That should make Saturday's NCAC title game a Sweet 16 level tune-up without the pressure of a bid on the line. However, OWU could definitely be playing for home games in the NCAA tournament. They'd be 4-2-2 against ranked, 1-0-1 against Kenyon and have a higher SOS. Kenyon, with a win, should be in line to host, but I think the location/facilities could be a drawback. There are no locker rooms near the field, the stands are very small, and Gambier has limited hotel selection within reasonable driving distance (putting it lightly).
As for the game itself, I think whoever scores first wins. Kenyon's D is tough to break down, especially once they take a lead, but OWU also plays much better from the front. OWU also has a mental edge over Kenyon, undefeated in last 11 meetings. And it's not your typical dominance a la Wooster, as Kenyon has consistently been in those games. Both teams seem to be on point, so that should be mandatory viewing for anyone looking for the best conference final Saturday night.
It takes about 45 seconds (walking slowly) to get from the Kenyon field to the top-ranked athletic facility in the country (all divisions according to Princeton Review). Is 45-50 minutes (if necessary) too far for a team to take a bus ride to a game? But that said, I'm sure Kenyon would be happy to host via borrowing the OWU location while OWU travels to Calvin or Wheaton ;) As for the rest, Kenyon even with a loss would be 3-1-1. Not much difference, arguably better, and Kenyon has been ranked ahead of OWU for 9-10 straight weeks.
They are both locks, and I agree that this is the perfect game for both teams to prepare for the competition and intensity of the NCAA tournament. The alleged mental edge seems obvious, and yet Kenyon should feel less pressure (and more incentive) playing at OWU. Definitely is set up to be one of the games of the year so far this season, and the video feed is excellent.
A couple of other thoughts while in OWU-Kenyon preview mode....
Going back to 2011 (the relevant time period for the current players), leading up to this year there has been hardly a game where OWU wasn't favored (against anyone except perhaps Messiah in the first game of the OWU 2011 national title season), and certainly there were none where Kenyon was favored or considered on par. Yes, Kenyon wasn't Wooster, but this is the first year in four where most would say they are on very equal footing or where arguably Kenyon could be considered to have a very slight edge. Even during Kenyon's very good season last year let's not forget that OWU was undefeated and #1 in the country for virtually the entire season until losing to RHIT. And 2011 and 2012 Kenyon was pretty good and competitive but clearly in rebuilding mode. As noted, in 2011 OWU was a national title team and also highly ranked throughout 2012.
As for the game I wouldn't be surprised to see momentum swing back and forth a fair amount. Neither team is going to lay down if they face a little adversity.
And finally, whether you are a Jay Martin fan or not, this year's edition of the Battling Bishops may represent one of his very best coaching jobs. He tweaked a team that lost at home to Otterbein 4-1 (without Bloecher) into a squad that has been as good as anyone down the stretch. He moved some players around, including putting one of his preferred forwards/attacking mids on the backline, and he has shortened his bench quite a bit compared to what he usually does (more akin to Loras). Excellent job with this team and no one should understimate the competitiveness of the coaching legend.
Interesting article by Bennettrank.com
http://www.bennettrank.com/collegesoccer/open-invitation-ncaa-soccer-tournament-selection-committees/
Thought I would share as NCAA Selections are only a few days away.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 06, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
Interesting article by Bennettrank.com
http://www.bennettrank.com/collegesoccer/open-invitation-ncaa-soccer-tournament-selection-committees/
Thought I would share as NCAA Selections are only a few days away.
Interesting...Just out of curiosity, I used their prediction tool to compare Hope vs Kalamazoo (the matchup I saw last night). Of course, it predicted a Hope victory, giving absolutely no weight to the fact that Kzoo has now beaten Hope three times this season. Personally, I believe Massey does a better job than Bennett, but both appear to employ flawed methodology.
I see Rutgers-Newark as a potential non bid on the home page, but where does that put Rutgers-Camden? If MSU dropped from 2nd to 7th after 1 loss (to Newark), where does that leave Rutgers-Camden or MSU? Everyone on the board assumed Newark was done after losing to Camden for the 2nd time, but Newark jumped to 3rd after that "big win". Is this a year where those secret rankings dramatically change?
We see that K'zoo disposed of Hope 3x, so we know, or think we know that Hope is toast.
At any rate; Camden 2, MSU 1! They seem to be on the right track after letting Haverford score a TD and MSU a 5 spot.
Pretty quiet around here all of the sudden.
Everyone bunkering in with their faves before the storm?
Some compelling storylines over the weekend.
OWU-Kenyon seems covered, and that is one of them for sure, but there are at least a handful of others.
Rutgers-Camden, last year's national runner-up and now finally oozing with confidence at the right time, challenges Montclair State for the NJAC title, which apparently now is just as massive in terms of importance for MSU. Should be one of the very best games of the weekend. Any video for this one?
Can F&M continue their remarkable run, get through Haverford and Muhlenberg/Dickinson, and find some way to squirm themselves out of Messiah's quadrant? The Messiah announcers last night were effusive in their praise of F&M whom they consider a close family member (because of coach) and almost sounding entitled to a Messiah vs F&M national final.
The IIAC final with Wartburg at Loras is about as good as it gets, on par with and offering similar dynamics to the Kenyon-OWU final.
In the NEWMAC, Babson looks safe given the regional rankings, but does anyone really know how many teams could be fighting over that bid with the Beavers, especially if Babson doesn't get a result against favored Wheaton and WPI prevails over Coast Guard. Are Tufts, Rochester/Case, CMU, Montclair, Salisbury, etc impacted or impactful here?
The UAA is getting a ton of love (seemingly) and probably too much. Can they really get 4, or even 5 bids (inclusive of the AQ)? Brandeis is safe. Chicago seems safe, with a great chance to get the AQ and a good rankings position if they don't, but on the other hand UC has a large number of blemishes so could one more possibly be too many? The Maroons no doubt benefit from and may have a little wiggle room because of North Park and Hope being eliminated in their conferences semis. Emory appears pretty safe, but the South Atlantic rankings have been extremely volatile and another loss could spawn doubts. CMU (at home) also absolutely must win against Emory to have any chance of a bid. I thought Case was done, but the regional cmte has been kind to the Spartans. An away win at Rochester seems like way too much to ask of this blue-collar squad who have played their hearts out all year. And Rochester seems like the team with 9 lives. No matter what happens they seem to be locked into the #4 position in the East, although the Yellow Jackets were within 7 minutes of being eliminated in Pittsburgh when they pulled two set-piece daggers out of a hat. My guess is that Rochester gets a 4th UAA bid and that Case and CMU fall just short.
Similar to the NEWMAC scenarios above, RPI could ruffle some feathers with a win (or maybe even a tie) with SLU. That might be a problem for Rochester, or one of the NEWMACs, or even for Tufts.
Which raises another question. Is it a problem to be a team with credentials sitting idle over this big weekend, a la Tufts, Brockport, Newark, and of course our friend Luther who inexplicably already seemed doomed?
Is KZoo already in after besting Hope an amazing 3 times in a row? Or do they have to get a result against Calvin?
The ODAC final should be excellent with Roanoke and Lynchburg, and Roanoke will be determined to leave no doubt about securing a bid, knowing that the at-large picture does not look friendly to them.
Has Elmhurst earned a bid or do they have to win against Wheaton at Joe Bean?
Some long-awaited clarity should emerge out of the SAA, and given how favorably Centre has been viewed one wonders if the Colonels could sneak a bid without earning the new AQ.
And for the second year in a row -- but this year not because of several lesser known teams having stellar records and instead mostly because of a NEWMAC surge -- the mighty NESCAC remarkably looks like they are going to feel shorted again. Only Amherst looks completely safe. Tufts seems pretty safe. And apparently the NESCAC will only make their way up to 3 bids if Midd, Bowdoin, or Conn Coll manage to lift the NESCAC tourney trophy. Emerging with only 2 bids will be a bitter pill for NESCAC faithfuls, but that is the most likely scenario with Amherst being the strongest remaining team and having home field.
The other developing storyline of major interest (as alluded to in posts above) will be the jockeying for hosting the first and possibly second weekends in the NCAA dance. Barring unexpected events, Messiah and Trinity (TX) look like locks to host as long as they win. Vying for the others spots would seem to be Oneonta, Brandeis, possibly Amherst, possibly SLU, possibly Wheaton (MA), F&M, possibly Christopher Newport, Kenyon, OWU, John Carroll, Calvin, Wheaton (Ill), Loras, and maybe Whitworth. Sorry if I missed any other obvious candidates.
Don't forget Eastern vs. Kings. Two Messiah alums coaching against each other for the MAC Freedom title.
Centennial semifinals seems like a great way to spend a Saturday afternoon...
Unfortunately, no video for the NJAC Final.
How many Messiah coaches are out there in D3? I think Geneva has one also. Can someone do a Messiah coaching tree?
And meanwhile, #1 seed Greensboro in real trouble in 2nd half against Maryville (TN) in the USA South.
In the Central, assuming each of the favorites (Calvin, Wheaton, Chicago and Dominican) wins their conference's AQ and the region receives one at-large bid, the battle likely breaks down as follows:
North Park - .666 winning % in division, 4-4 vs ranked opponents, .597 SOS, 5-5 in last 10, but failed to reach conference final.
Elmhurst - .675 winning % in division, 2-5 vs ranked opponents, .560 SOS, 6-3-1 in last 10 (assuming loss to Wheaton in final).
Kalamazoo - .619 winning % in division, 4-4-1 vs ranked opponents, 528 SOS, 7-3 in last 10 (assuming loss to Calvin in final).
MSOE - .761 winning % in division, 1-4 vs ranked opponents, .515 SOS, 8-2 in last 10 (assuming loss to Dominican in final).
I think MSOE gets eliminated due to low SOS and low record against ranked opponents. I think North Park gets eliminated next due to failing to get out of the conference semis and their record over the last ten games (including 2-4 in last six). This leaves Elmhurst and Kzoo. The Bluejays have the better winning % and SOS, but the Hornets have the better results versus ranked opponents. More telling, the two teams played to a 1-1 draw at Kalamazoo back in mid September (a game I happened to see in person). The Hornets' coach played his second team most of the game to reward them for their hard work during the preseason, yet Kzoo was still the better team on that day (including 20-9 shots advantage, 11-4 SOG).
Based upon the eye test, as well as their recent results, Kzoo should get the at-large bid. However, they have not been ranked in any of the three regional rankings (a clear oversight by the committee, given that Hope has appeared in all three), and it is unlikely that the committee will recognize this. Elmhurst, meanwhile, appeared in the first two rankings, but not the most recent rankings.
Given this analysis:
Who deserves the at-large bid: Kalamazoo
Who will receive the at-large bid: Elmhurst
Soccergeek, Last year the central region did not receive any at-large bids and the North received 3 at large bids. Because Carthage beat a couple North teams this year I could see the Central maybe getting two this year and the North only getting one especially if Gustavus wins the MIAC. However, I think whitewater may have beaten NPU which lowers that possibility? I cannot think of any other cross region games off the top of my head.
Quote from: Durantula on November 07, 2014, 02:33:21 PM
Soccergeek, Last year the central region did not receive any at-large bids and the North received 3 at large bids. Because Carthage beat a couple North teams this year I could see the Central maybe getting two this year and the North only getting one especially if Gustavus wins the MIAC. However, I think whitewater may have beaten NPU which lowers that possibility? I cannot think of any other cross region games off the top of my head.
Here are a few more: Chicago crushed Knox 6-2, UW-Whitewater defeated MSOE, Chicago, North Park and lost to Carthage, and UW-Oshkosh lost to MSOE and North Park.
lastguy, you have got to be kidding.
We need you to go there and personally provide a video stream (and since you'll already be there please provide the color commentary as well).
Stevens and Alfred knotted up in the 2nd OT. Matt Smith formerly of Johns Hopkins has done a good job in his first year with this group. Alfred does not have the talent that Stevens does but the game has got PK's written all over it and this could end Stevens season. Stevens is not nearly as good as in years past but they have enough talent to be able to win a game or 2 in the NCAA's if they get there
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 07, 2014, 03:07:20 PM
lastguy, you have got to be kidding.
We need you to go there and personally provide a video stream (and since you'll already be there please provide the color commentary as well).
I unfortunately will not be there! Will be relying on live stats while out with the kids tonight. Extreme disservice to the rest of the d3 world. Whether the school provides the live feed or not (Kean, Newark, Stockton do off the top of my head), the NJAC itself should have it streamed.
The Ducks laid an egg but came through to get the W and more than likely secure a ticket to the dance where no one will want to be their first date!
I do agree however that the team in white are not looking their normal selves, this could be the competition they are facing in a conference a bit down.
Seems this will again be a tournament where the big boys will come to play.
Can't see Kalamazoo getting an at large bid with their SOS an lack of a signature away win. They've been too inconsistent, for me. Elmhurst should probably sneak in behind Calvin, Wheaton and Chicago. Hope has a decent chance as well and have shown they can beat tournament opposition. I think Wheaton has a chance to go very far in the tournament this year. This has been their strongest team in years IMO.
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 07, 2014, 05:51:17 PM
Can't see Kalamazoo getting an at large bid with their SOS an lack of a signature away win. They've been too inconsistent, for me. Elmhurst should probably sneak in behind Calvin, Wheaton and Chicago. Hope has a decent chance as well and have shown they can beat tournament opposition. I think Wheaton has a chance to go very far in the tournament this year. This has been their strongest team in years IMO.
I tend to agree with what you are saying, other than with respect to Hope. Coming in third in their conference, losing in the semis, losing three times to Kzoo and finishing the season on a 1-4-1 streak -- they are done like dinner. Also, I see Calvin (final four) going a bit further than Wheaton (final eight), assuming they don't run into each other earlier.
Hi letthekidsplay59,
Kalamazoo 1 Chicago 0
Kalamazoo 2 Hope 1
Kalamazoo 1 Hope 0
Kalamazoo 2 Hope 0
SOS: .528
Are you kidding me? They definitely should have a chance with that resume.
I've had the opportunity to watch the Kalamazoo Dodgers on 5 different occasions.
Save from a lucky win against Chicago, this team is legit.
Pelinho5,
Your stats don't make a very compelling argument. You admitted yourself that the win against Chicago was lucky, and the other games you reference merely serve to demonstrate that Kalamazoo can beat Hope, a team this forum seems to think lacks an ncaa tournament resume. Moreover, an SOS of .528 does little to move the needle, my friend.
Checkmate
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 07, 2014, 06:09:32 PM
Pelinho5,
Your stats don't make a very compelling argument. You admitted yourself that the win against Chicago was lucky, and the other games you reference merely serve to demonstrate that Kalamazoo can beat Hope, a team this forum seems to think lacks an ncaa tournament resume. Moreover, an SOS of .528 does little to move the needle, my friend.
Checkmate
Letthekidsplay59,
I haven't considered it from that perspective, I guess that makes a little bit of sense. Still think the Dodgers deserve a shot, who knows what they could achieve....
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 07, 2014, 06:13:15 PM
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 07, 2014, 06:09:32 PM
Pelinho5,
Your stats don't make a very compelling argument. You admitted yourself that the win against Chicago was lucky, and the other games you reference merely serve to demonstrate that Kalamazoo can beat Hope, a team this forum seems to think lacks an ncaa tournament resume. Moreover, an SOS of .528 does little to move the needle, my friend.
Checkmate
Letthekidsplay59,
I haven't considered it from that perspective, I guess that makes a little bit of sense. Still think the Dodgers deserve a shot, who knows what they could achieve....
For what it's worth, I actually watched most of the Kzoo - Chicago match online and Kzoo was the better team (IMHO). At least until they had a player sent off midway through the second half while holding a 1-0 lead. Chicago then threw everything but the kitchen sink at the Hornets, but their back line and, particularly, their keeper held strong for the victory. In fact, their keeper made a couple saves I've never seen made at that level before.
Still, as I laid out in an earlier post, I expect Elmhurst to get the nod over Kzoo, assuming the Central favorites win the AQs this weekend. If one or more of the favorites lose, then all bets are off.
I don't know how someone can make a serious argument for Hope. While beating Hope 3 times may not mean enough for Kzoo, 3 losses to Kzoo certainly is telling for Hope. And Hope is 13-7-1. Their only really good win was against Wheaton and against the run of play for the most part. They had a decent win over Elmhurst. That's it. But more important than the paltry number of good wins are the total number of losses. I see North Park as similar although if they were fighting for a bid head-to-head I'd give it to North Park. Both of these schools seem to get a lot of benefit of the doubt but there comes a point where an argument just can't be made. Can you imagine Hope getting a bid while teams like Montclair, RPI, Luther, etc sit at home?
As for Kzoo, they probably have too many losses also, but if they can beat Hope 3 times in one season they they should have a chance against Calvin, who, after being underrated, I think is now being overrated. They have arguably the best forward in the country but I'm not sure they have the overall strength of at least 7 or 8 other teams. If Vegter is marked out of the game, what happens? For my money, Wheaton is stronger from top to bottom and may be one of only 2-3 teams in the country that would have a chance to match Messiah even-up.
After Messiah, I don't see any clear cut teams that are definitely #2, #3 and #4. Instead, I see 7-8 teams that cannot be legitimately separated (until perhaps they play head-to-head), and then there are another 6-7 teams after that group who could prove to be just as dangerous especially if they get hot and catch some breaks. In short, basically the D3soccer top 15 and CNU, Montclair (if they survive), and maybe a Cortland.
Oshkosh goes up 1-0 on Whitewater with about 20 left.
MSU rolled to 3-0 lead over Camden and now 3-1 under 20.
MSU 3 RUC 1 Looks like MSU to NCAA's
Centre going into 2nd OT with Sewanee.
Centre going to PKs. Even if they prevail they will need to win AQ most likely as another draw just adds to lengthy list of blemishes.
Of course what I forgot to add that is that if they didn't prevail in PKs they'd have no chance at the AQ either and would be done.
They did prevail in PKs (barely). Some of worst PKs I've ever seen. Centre missed completely wide right. Then Sewanee hit one at least 10-12 feet over the goal. Centre goes well wide left. Sewanee makes. Centre makes. Sewanee hits one softly right at GK. And it ended in the 6th round I think with Sewanee hitting another one way over.
Stevens v Alfred had some of the better PK's I have seen. One miss each up until the 7th round when Stevens keeper made a nice save. Stevens is going to be a really tough out as they will likely be on the road for their 1st and 2nd round games. They might even send them up to New England. Usually one Jersey team always gets sent up to New England
Newark would get sent to new england again I think. And I msu gets in a pod with centennial team, odac AQ and possibly mac freedom AQ? Maybe with psu Harrisburg if they win the CAC
If covenant and Centre does not win the AQ, does Camden win over Newark twice sneak them in as a last team? I think 8 losses is too much, but to only have one NJAC team would seem like an injustice.
Mr.Right, you impressed me (blew me away actually) when you posted that you were watching Stevens and Alfred. It's nice to see you spreading your wings outside of NESCAC Village. I watched those PKs too (because you clued me in to the game), and they were very well taken, and several very clutch makes with the game on the line. The miss for Alfred with the game on their boot was unfortunate.
Seems like there will be two NJAC teams, but most likely Newark with Montclair.
I love to watch different regions when I have time.
Wheaton and Babson scoreless almost halfway through 2nd half.
Brandeis scoreless with NYU at the break.
Emory/CMU and Chicago/Wash U about the get underway.
And Grove City and Thomas More for the Prez conf title.
Babson looking to pull the upset and secure at least an at large bid. Go up 1-0 off flip throw dagger to 2nd floor porch of goal.
Pretty chippy game and Wheaton going to press hard to equalize as they may be watching a couple of home games slip away.
Babson goes up 2-0. Nice individual play to score.
I wouldn't have said this leading into today, but Babson now clearly has earned a bid regardless of the AQ. And Wheaton uses up an at large spot. Not a good scenario all around for bubble teams.
And Brandeis still has not scored at NYU.
Three bids for the NEWMAC... if it is a so called down year for the NESCAC... one of these mid Atlantic or south Atlantic teams will be happy taking a trip up to new england. Being able to avoid Messiah to play Brandeis in an elite 8 match up will be best case scenario.
The UAA really is something else. Every week the same thing. Following 3 UAA games and every one is 0-0.
lastguy, you are absolutely right. They should just put Messiah in the final four and have everyone else placed in the other 3 quadrants with play-in games so everyone gets a chance.
3 bids? You could be looking at 4 bids if WPI beats Coast Guard. I would say it is a down year for Nescac but if you put some of these Newmac teams in Nescac and forced them to travel and play 10 league games they would have more losses and ties. It's a moot point now but Babson looks to be a bit improved from when I last saw them.
Brandeis breaks through in 82nd min with a rebound goal from a kid who has only played in 2 games this season. Pressure tilts over the Chicago.
What is the general thought of the pool B bid? UWO beat UWW last night 1-0 at home in a snow game for the WIAC championship. UWO is now 14-5-2 and is 1-2-2 against regionally ranked opponents with being ranked in the last regional pool at 7. Whereas UWW is 13-4-4 and is 3-2-1 against regionally ranked opponents and having maintained at 3 in the North regional poll.
I think UWW gets it. Their resume looks good enough compared to others in different regions.
A team like Middlebury should get in over WPI... WPI played no one this year except Brandeis. Other than an up year schedule vs NEWMAC teams. This algorithm needs some fine tuning!
I hear you. You could say the same for Coast Guard but this happened last year when the CCC got 3 weak teams in. Gordon, Roger Williams and WNEC were all over whelmed in the NCAA's by stronger sides from Nescac and UAA. I expect more of the same from Newmac this year. Midd has no chance except to win Nescac
Brandeis has won more than a handful of cliffhangers. A very clutch, experienced team but one wonders if the pattern will catch up to them as the quality goes up another level.
Agreed
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
Brandeis breaks through in 82nd min with a rebound goal from a kid who has only played in 2 games this season. Pressure tilts over the Chicago.
Actually, it was Evan Jastremski—Bender is injured.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2014, 12:51:57 PM
Brandeis has won more than a handful of cliffhangers. A very clutch, experienced team but one wonders if the pattern will catch up to them as the quality goes up another level.
Agreed. Both of their losses have been hard-luck, but they could have easily dropped points against Wheaton, Tufts, WashU, and Case. We shall see.
... if Camden some how weasels it's way into the secret final rankings, logic would say that Newark should be toast. MSU fell 5 spots to 7th after losing to a regionally ranked team. Rutgers Newark would also pick up 2 more losses vs a regionally ranked team (camden), have a lower SOS, but much higher win percentage.
Camden might jump Centres SOS in region after playing teams with a combined record of 30-8 this week as well.
Pool C locks so far:
Emory
Brandeis
Salisbury
Wheaton MA
1-1 already for oneonta and cortland
Not so sure Salisbury is a lock. They are looking very good but not quite a lock yet
Bad pks... Middlebury is done.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 08, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
Not so sure Salisbury is a lock. They are looking very good but not quite a lock yet
Salisbury will look a whole lot better if CNU takes care of business today.
SLU dominating RPI late in the first half but as we have seen all season Dewald is one of the better keepers in the country for RPI. The longer this game stays 0-0 RPI has a fighting chance for sure
Salisbury should be safe but a .556 SOS is average at best and a 0-1-3 Record vs ranked is not good. Also, 5 ties is quite a bit and the South Atlantic regional rankings have been fluctuating as we know the past 3 weeks. That being said they should be all set unless this upset Saturday continues
Haverford up 1-0 over F&M at the half.
Chicago beats Wash U., so that gives them the UAA automatic berth, right?
correct.
SLU goes up 1-0 on RPI with 25' to play.
Chicago gets the automatic bid. Brandeis and Emory are locks. I would imagine the winner of UR v Case is in also. CM is on the wrong side of the bubble but crazier things have happened.
Oneonta wins the SUNYAC 2-1
Haverford going to hand F&M their first loss of the season in the Centennial semifinals, up 2-0 with minutes remaining. And there you have another Pool C lock. Bubble teams just have to hope Haverford doesn't win the final.
Haverford takes down F&M 2-0 for the Dips first loss of the season.
Gotta believe F&M becomes a Pool C.
Bubble teams want to hope Haverford doesn't win the CC.
Just saw that MSOE beat Dominican for the NACC title and AQ.
Congrats to MSOE. Pulling for them all season. Does Dominican get a bid?
And based on regional rankings not totally sure Haverford has to win final.
Congrats to Chicago. Not sure they are that good, but winning the UAA is impressive.
Gonna be a crazy selection Monday. WPI knocks off Coast Guard.
Rose-Hulman and Transy deep into 2nd OT.
Wow. Rose-Hulman wins it in 2nd OT at Transy.
Berry beat Millsaps, which might be a bonus for Centre/Birm-Southern winner.
I guess Emory is a lock but they can't score goals. 2 goals in 6 games. 4 out of last 6 without scoring.
MSOE with AQ, leaving Dominican trying for a pool c. Don't think Domincan has enough to snag it with a 1-3-1 against regionally ranked opponents
Dominican is finished. There are way to many teams ahead of them that require that Pool C. I can think of WPI,Wheaton,Coast Guard,Tufts,Brandeis,Emory,RPI,UR,Case,CM,F&M,Dickinson,Cortland. That is only 3 regions + UAA.
Maybe someone could compile a list based off of regional rankings of you lock Pool C's and bubble teams. I realize this site does that on Sunday night but maybe a preliminary list. Also, factor in the regions with more ranked teams usually get 1 or 2 extra bids
UMASS Boston gets the AQ out of the Little East with a sweet 2-1 2ot win on a header off a corner to beat Keene St. This team is a bit under sized but have some skill and might cause a team some problems in the NCAA's
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 08, 2014, 03:47:55 PM
Dominican is finished. There are way to many teams ahead of them that require that Pool C. I can think of WPI,Wheaton,Coast Guard,Tufts,Brandeis,Emory,RPI,UR,Case,CM,F&M,Dickinson,Cortland. That is only 3 regions + UAA.
Agreed. First time Dominican will miss the tournament since joining the conference.
Gustavus earns the MIAC AQ with a 2-0 win over St Johns!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 08, 2014, 01:11:02 PM
Pool C locks so far:
Emory
Brandeis
Salisbury.
Wheaton MA
Officially add:
Cortland St
Coast Guard.
F&M (doesn't change centennial unless Haverford wins)
Calvin 1-1 with Kzoo late. Field looks less than ideal, with questionable dimensions.
OT in Grand Rapids.
Looks like a high school field. Thought they were heading one in at the death. Hendrix field is quality. Holding up well after 5 games in two days
Brandeis should host in New England thru the Final 4. After watching Amherst beat Conn today with 3 goals off set pieces I really do not think Brandeis can hold up with Amherst in the sweet 16 or elite 8. Brandeis field is 72' wide. Brandeis is more skilled than Amherst but with that field dimension it would favor Amherst with all those long throws and big physical players. We will see
An astute analysis and observation as to field dimension and its effect.
At the end of the day however the Final 4 fields will be big.
Amherst and any other serious team with ambition may well get used to playing on a bigger surface.
Agreed.
Calvin's field is narrow but it looks decent enough. Grass and cut nice and remember its in Michigan so its kept well considering the conditions. Another bubble might be burst if Kalamazoo gets thru on PK's
Going PKs at Calvin.
Rochester up 1-0 early on Case. Like a 3 goal lead in the UAA.
Centre down 1-0 at the half.
The refs shouldn't let these GKs do all this taunting during the PKs.
Agreed. That Calvin keeper acting like an ass. I usually believe in karma and it almost bit him in the ass but oh well
Congrats to Calvin. Had to make several do or die makes. Hats off to Kzoo for a valiant effort. They probably won't but I hope they sneak a bid.
Rochester game is over....already up 2-0.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 08, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
Agreed. That Calvin keeper acting like an ass. I usually believe in karma and it almost bit him in the ass but oh well
I know this is probably grossly unfair (and a double standard I guess) but these schools with the kind of missions they tout shouldn't chip away at the edges of sportsmanship. I think that's why I had an issue before with the Messiah announcing crew although we have since made up.
I will say this, though. Calvin doesn't look like a team that can challenge Messiah to a good game.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 08, 2014, 05:15:45 PM
Congrats to Calvin. Had to make several do or die makes. Hats off to Kzoo for a valiant effort. They probably won't but I hope they sneak a bid.
Rochester game is over....already up 2-0.
Hope is their favorite word this year
Haha, good one lastguy!
I haven't seen Calvin until today... wasn't impressed, but it's all about match ups in the tournament.
They looked like a sweet 16 team that could have a tougher opponent than expected... we'll see where they get shipped
And lastguy, Hope is the gift that keeps on giving. Kzoo by my quick look is 4-3-2 against ranked. Beat Chicago too and tied Elmhurst and now tie with Calvin.
Whitworth appears to have the NWC AQ well in hand...up 2-0 on Whitman (who ended Willamette's dream season).
NCAC, if Kenyon wins tonight at OWU, do you think Calvin or Kenyon would get the highest seed in that region?
Quote from: chelseafc30 on November 08, 2014, 05:33:29 PM
NCAC, if Kenyon wins tonight at OWU, do you think Calvin or Kenyon would get the highest seed in that region?
Wheaton. Half-kidding. Wheaton has to deal with Elmhurst tonight (very similar to the Calvin vs Kzoo set-up).
I'm way too biased to answer the question. We don't know if Calvin could be sent West, or even what they are going to do with F&M.
Based on the "eye-test," my ranking would probably be Wheaton, Kenyon, OWU, Calvin. If Kenyon wins tonight, I would guess Kenyon, Wheaton, Calvin, OWU.
John Carroll is also out there and under the radar. If they lose to Heidelberg tonight there's another at large down the drain for bubble hopefuls.
Muhlenberg is another under the radar team that almost no one talks about. Last I checked they were up 1-0 on Dickinson with about 10 to go. If they win the Centennial AQ I could see them having an argument to be seeded ahead of F&M.
Rochester is going to be one of the more dangerous UAA teams IMHO, and given their location, I think they could get sent to any region except out West.
Centre is done, loses to Birm-Southern. Centre had been a hard team to figure.
Pomona-Pitzer got by Redlands according to late reporting precincts.
I think Haverford is going to bump out free falling Dickinson (0-3-1 L4). I did mention on here that Centennial could get 4, but now with Mules winning, Haverford SOS will be even better.
Messiah already in 2nd half when was advertised as 6:00 start. Was 0-0 at half but Thompson scores early in 2nd.
After looking at Haverford's resume a .603 SOS and rising is excellent a 2-4-1 against RvR is ok. 7 losses would likely be a nail in the coffin but a tie might get it done. Dickinson is all set with their SOS and record v Ranked
Correction! Lives stats says 2nd half but broadcast says 1st half.
Keep in mind Haverford will be 3-4-1 vs regionally ranked. Beating f&m and reaching centennial final to me says they are worthy, even though they lost to Dickinson.
Haverford last 3 opponents 37-7-6...
Mr.Right, "all set" as in "IN" or all set as in "TOAST."
Hopefully no future opponents are watching Messiah right now. The Falcons are on all cylinders. 3-0.
I think Dickinson is on the right side of the bubble. Good SOS and good RvR.
Interesting. Does Centennial get 4? What if Haverford wins AQ?
In the UAA, I see Emory as the weakest of the 4 likely to get bids behind Brandeis, Rochester, and Chicago.
If you go unbeaten in NESCAC play, should be in no question. I think only way WPI gets in is with AQ... Amherst is safe.
They will be really sweating it out. I think they got one of the last Pool C's but would not be surprised if they are left out especially if WPI and Bowdoin win tomorrow
Gordon and Husson will be punching their tickets.
Nichols just tied it up against Gordon, so no AQ for Gordon yet.
wow..i was watching and i swear Gordon went up 2-0 with 12 minutes left, apparently something happened
They took the goal away for some unspecified reason. Second OT about to begin.
Nichols wins in 2OT, much to the relief of Mr. Right.
Of course Nichols wins it. They looked to be the better team. I wonder why that goal was disallowed as it was sitting in the net for about 15 seconds
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 08, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Calvin's field is narrow but it looks decent enough. Grass and cut nice and remember its in Michigan so its kept well considering the conditions. Another bubble might be burst if Kalamazoo gets thru on PK's
True - I've watched several games there. It's tight width-wise but the grass surface is in very good shape. Tough for possession teams to play the ball wide there which is an advantage for Calvin's defenders. OWU found that out earlier this year.
Attended the Calvin - Kzoo game this afternoon. Hard not to feel for the kids in orange, as they left it all on the field. Not as talented a group as the Calvin boys, but took the Knights to OT and then nine PKs before finally falling. Kzoo's defense, and particularly their keeper, are as good as any I have seen this season. If they were to sneak into the tournament (admittedly a longshot), they could give a lot of teams fits. Meanwhile, Calvin is a quality side and deserving of a top seed. As has been noted, the field conditions prevented both sides from playing an attractive brand of soccer, and the Knights gutted out the victory. How cruel this game can be: The Kzoo keeper got his fingers on three of the PKs in sudden death, with a stop representing victory, but each time the ball deflected into the goal. Finally, the Calvin keeper made a stop and his teammate followed with a make and that was the game. However, both sides should be proud of their effort.
OWU goes down 2-1 in OT to Kenyon. Fairly even game. I thought OWU had the better of the chances, hit the post twice and a couple shots just wide. Kenyon was always a threat on their set pieces but not as much from the run of play. A tie would have been a just result.
What does this mean with JCU being defeated by Heidelberg? Does JCU get the nod above OWU with the loss to H'berg and a OWU's loss to Kenyon? Surely a loss to Kenyon is a better result than a loss to Heidelberg.
Will JCU and OWU both get in? If one gets in who do you give it to?
Great game in Delaware, OH. Not a beautiful game but a tremendous battle.
First, got to ask about the video. It was about the best I've ever seen the other night against DePauw and tonight it was just horrible...view was behind 2 posts in the press box and they moved it at the half and was even worse. Also in and out of focus all night.
As for the game, Ryan H was right. Kenyon had to overcome a lot of psychological angst, and always seems to happen with OWU they scored in the first 2-3 minutes off a long ball played in that Bloecher made a great play on the head on over Kenyon's right back. Exactly the start that was Kenyon's worst nightmare. Kenyon then completely dominated the next 25 minutes or so but wasn't scoring, and I was thinking OWU was pulling a rope-a-dope, absorbing pressure while Kenyon exhausted itself.
Trying to watch the exciting Wartburg-Loras tilt as I type.
But Kenyon did finally score off a corner.
The first part of 2nd half seemed pretty even but Kenyon gave away a lot of free kicks and I was sure Bloecher would bury one and he came real close. OWU totally dominated the last 10 or so minutes. In OT Kenyon found a second wind and regained the momentum and their D1 transfer made a great play and fantastic finish to win the game with his 1st goal of the season.
This game was more important for Kenyon than OWU. The Lords somehow had to put a stop to OWU's incredible streak that gets mentioned in every single game recap and game preview. OWU will be fine and could very easily make a deep run. They have several very dangerous players and are very difficult to contain for 90 or 90+ minutes.
This Wartburg-Loras game is off the hook. 2-2. Wartburg had clean point blank chance to put the game away at 3-1 but didn't score and then Loras levels with 4-5 min in regulation.
Anyway, finally breaking through should give Kenyon a big shot of confidence going into the tournament. 17-1-1. Already a historic season for the Lords.
Midwest, I think both OWU and JCU will get in. But that's it for the Great Lakes. 2 at large bids for the region isn't that many and both have resumes better than some of the other teams that are going to get at large berths. I'd be shocked if both don't get in, but if one gets screwed it will be JCU. OWU has better SOS.
Looks like all hell broke loose while I was watching Kenyon-OWU. Roanoke goes down. Heidelberg beats John Carroll. And then Wartburg and Loras in the midst of an instant classic in the Rock Bowl.
Why is JCU ranked ahead of OWU? Their SOS is pretty weak. I do not know if JCU is a lock just yet. 4-0-0 against ranked but those ranked that they have beaten are ok at best. I assume they will get in but not 100% confident
PKs at the Rock Bowl!
JCU has been ranked ahead of OWU in every NCAA Regional Ranking. Then the question is does OWU jump them with a loss vs #1 Kenyon with their loss to unranked Heidelberg?
That's why both are going to get bids. They're both very deserving. They're virtually tied at #2. But, yes, if forced I would jump OWU.
I see....Congrats to your KC Lords! Gambier will see some NCAA games for the first time in a LONG time. Well-deserved.
Wartburg wins PKs 5-4 over Loras
Wheaton(IL) defeats Elmhurst 5-2 for CCIW title
Messiah never gives Lycoming a chance to duplicate last year's feat and goes up 3-0 in the first 20 minutes before winning 4-0. Here's a scary thought - 2 of the goals were scored by defenders and weren't off set pieces.
I think it breaks down like this:
West 0 Pool C's unless Trinity lose tomorrow.
North 2-Loras, UWW
Central 0
Great Lakes 2 or 3 OWU, John Carroll (However they are not a lock in my mind based on that SOS) and maybe CM. These UAA teams have very high SOS and the committee usually does not ignore this. The committee also loves including UAA teams in the NCAA tournament with one of the more remarkable stats I have read on these boards. 2 Final Eight Appearances in the last 17 years by UAA schools. That blows me away. That is really bad for all the teams that get into the NCAA;s from the UAA year after year. That being said if you are to take CM then why not Wesleyan(CT) with also a high SOS and same record etc. Wesleyan is finished but just saying.
South Atl 3 Salisbury, Emory, RUN( I cannot see only one NJAC school included)
East 3 Cortland, Rochester, RPI
Mid-Atl 3 F&M, Dickinson, Muhlenberg / Haverford loser
New England 6 Brandeis, Wheaton(MA), Coast Guard, Tufts, Amherst (if they lose tmrw), Babson(if they lose tmrw), WPI (if they lose tmrw)
Of course only Babson and WPI account for 1 because they are playing each other tmrw.
That gives me 20 so you have 3 or 4 legit Bubble teams. WPI, RPI, Haverford,CM
Looks just about right.
I don't see Dickinson AND Haverford getting in.
Out of your bubbles I think RPI is probably most deserving. And might consider Brockport more of a bubble team than CMU or maybe even WPI.
Mr. Right , what do you think about pool b? Because if UWW snags that, then another pool C opens up
I like UWW resume and they should get that Pool B. The reason I choose Haverford and Dickinson is their SOS. Last year the mid-atlantic went 5 deep with Misericordia getting in at #5 and that was the bubble of all bubble teams. Ypu could be right about Brockport as they should be on the bubble as well but I do not see it happening for them.
Brandeis
Wheaton MA
Coast Guard
F&M
OWU
Loras
Rochester
Cortland St.
Emory
Salisbury
8 spots to go with 3 big conference finals on the slate today. Seems crazy not to include Tufts just yet, but they should be safe. If I have to question 1 it would be Salisbury... 5 draws, 2 loses, weak SOS, 0 wins vs regionally ranked. On an eye test I would take Tufts over Salisbury.
UWW pool B...
Mr.Right... UAA final 4 teams were NYU in 06, Chicago 96 I believe.
Nobody is better at this than Christan Shirk, but I'll take a stab. And as lastguy notes, there are a few variables still to be decided today with several finals, so there could be an impact if for instance Colorado Coll beats Trinity, Haverford beats Muhlenber, Bowdoin beats Amherst, WPI beats Babson, etc.
Absolute Locks (no discussion)
F&M
Brandeis
Loras
Trinity (if loses)
Muhlenberg (if loses)
Close to Locks (minimal discussion)
OWU
Amherst (if loses)
Wheaton (MA)
Cortland St
Probably Safe
John Carroll
Salisbury
Emory
Tufts
Likely to get in but sweating
Rochester
Coast Guard
Babson (if needed)
UW-W (if UW-Osh or Santa Cruz gets Pool B)
Rutgers-Newark
Bubble with high hopes
Brockport
RPI
WPI (if needed)
Dickinson
Haverford (if needed)
Kalamazoo
Colorado Coll (if needed)
UW-Osh (if needed)
Roanoke (I know they are probably in the last group below but I think they deserve to at least be here)
Wrong side of bubble but don't be shocked if one gets in
Rutgers-Camden
Dominican
Gordon (cmte representation)
Middlebury
Elmhurst
Carnegie Mellon
North Park
Texas-Dallas (if needed)
Centre
Luther (obviously they appear to be out but that team at a minimum deserves some explanation from their cmte which includes the Wartburg coach)
Would be a shame if the flawed SOS ranking system would keep Salisbury out. Because of the lack of inter-regional play, it doesn't adequately take into account the differences between regional strengths.
I agree, repete. This is another reason why UAA teams benefit... being spread out across various regions.
Salisbury should be safe, as they lost to a team that was also regionally ranked.
You can feel tensions rising as we head into selection time, seedings, hosting, etc. You could tell listening to the Messiah broadcast yesterday that things are ramping up. The 3-member broadcast team was trying to remain in easygoing mode with lots of jokes and light fanfare, but even with a big lead there were a few more ref comments and some overtly expressed sensitivity to Mr.Right's (and I assume Ryan H's) comments about the Fri/Sat deal. Clearly they are very tuned in to the happenings on this message board.
At any rate, these are my predictions on the seedings, which is dependent on the Trinity (TX) final today (which I could see Colorado Coll winning after two pretty close 1-0 losses), and a big wild card in the bracketology is where Calvin, Wheaton (Ill), and F&M are placed. I think there is a decent chance F&M gets placed with Kenyon and OWU, which would make for too many high seeds (#1 and #2/3 seeds) in the same quadrant if Wheaton and Calvin also there. I'm not sure wanting to avoid Messiah is a total no-brainer because if the Falcons are upset or you upset them then you have a pretty clear road, whereas elsewhere you may have to beat 2-3 teams just as good as you are to reach a final four.
#1 seeds
Messiah
Trinity (TX)
Oneonta State
Kenyon
#2 seeds
F&M
Brandeis
Loras
Wheaton
# 3 seeds
Calvin
SLU
Amherst
Muhlenberg (if wins and otherwise drops to a #4 and OWU moves up)
#4 seeds
OWU
Cortland
Wartburg
Christopher Newport
#5 seeds
Wheaton (MA)
Salisbury
Whitworth
Emory
#6 seeds
Montclair
Rochester
Chicago
Tufts
#7 seeds
GAC
Babson
John Carroll
Coast Guard
#8 seeds
RPI/Rutgers-Newark (or Camden)/Haverford/Dickinson/Brockport/UW-W/KZoo/WPI
Do you think NCAA does actual seeding, NCAC NE?
Most of the time it just seems jumbled by geography/dollars with some how did this pod happen? Don't forget the SAA winner does get the AQ, so either Berry or Birmingham Southern will also be in (8th seed).
Always appreciate the detailed and well constructed posts. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to your predictions...
I think they seed in between 2 regions geographically and $$$. That would be my guess, however it is more fun to do it the way you did.
I actually don't know, lastguy. Mr.Right probably does :)
My assumption is that they have to do at least some rough kind of seedings and then compromise based on that and the geography/cost issues. In other words, I would assume they try to make the quadrants fairly balanced within the geography/cost constraints. It wouldn't make sense to have 4 teams in the top 8 in the national polls all in the same quadrant. And of course they can't do much about the impact of AQs where the New England region is overrepresented with a handful of AQ teams that are usually fairly weak comparatively. As Mr.Right noted, one or two teams in the New England region should have relatively safe passage to the sweet 16.
Agreed. One exception was in 2011 or 2012 remember out of the blue they sent Colorado College to Babson???? The way the NCAA has been talking about budgets, cutting fields, cutting schedule sizes and crying poor I cannot imagine they will be doing anything but thinking about $$$$
Mr.Right, what adjustments would you make to my lists?
BTW, if you can keep it together, you may be in the running for Comeback Poster of the Year.
Pool C's evaporating by the hour.
Amherst needs one now.
Colorado College leading Trinity early 1-0. Trinity in addition to taking an at large spot could be losing a bye.
Will interesting to see what happens with WPI.
And Texas-Dallas down 1-0 at the half to Hardin-Simmons. Not sure Tex-Dallas is in play for an at large but they have been highly ranked regionally all 3 weeks.
I cannot predict if I will be able to keep it together. Sometimes without my meds I become unhinged. :)
I like your list except now with Bowdoin winning Nescac things are starting to get muddled. I think WPI and Brockport are off the bubble and finished. Colorado College and Roanoke should not be on any bubble as they are done. Have you seen Colorado College SOS? UWO is done as is Kalamazoo. I thought Elmhurst was better than North Park just on watching them play but neither will get in. Oddly enough Elmhurst coach is on committee so stay tuned. I like Haverford and Dickinson to get in and I now believe Tufts gets in. Bowdoin's win might really harm RPI. RPI is on a severe bubble watch right now
Keep in mind Colorado up 1-0 at the half!
I'm moving all of my #4 seeds above Amherst now.
Now Texas-Dallas is down 2.
Texas Dallas is finished. I also think John Carroll is in some trouble.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 09, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
You can feel tensions rising as we head into selection time, seedings, hosting, etc. You could tell listening to the Messiah broadcast yesterday that things are ramping up. The 3-member broadcast team was trying to remain in easygoing mode with lots of jokes and light fanfare, but even with a big lead there were a few more ref comments and some overtly expressed sensitivity to Mr.Right's (and I assume Ryan H's) comments about the Fri/Sat deal. Clearly they are very tuned in to the happenings on this message board.
NCAC I actually like the Messiah announcers. I think their soccer knowledge and Messiah knowledge gives an outsider an inside view Of Messiah.I am curious what were they saying about the Fri / Sat thing. Please tell me they were not defending that.
If the Trinity result holds, it would really be a fitting end to a crazy weekend full of surprises and upsets. A Trinity loss would also open up a first round bye spot for someone else.
I didn't stick around to listen, but one of them said the comments made on this website (by you presumably) needed to be addressed/corrected. So yes, they were going to counter the impressions about the Fri/Sat deal here.
They are VERY knowledgeable, and they will talk about other teams and what is happening on the national scene which I like, but when they start becoming anxious about their team the performance deteriorates. They also tend to go on and on about their "extended Messiah family" like player alums and coaches on the Messiah coaching tree, which, since they have their regular, faithful audience, I have come to accept as my problem to ignore.
And they are very confident that there is nothing in their performance (or opinions) to question.
LOL....
Based on the upsets so far I'm thinking Haverford has to get the AQ, and Dickinson may be in real trouble too (akin to possibly John Carroll). Even wonder about Rochester the way everything is trending.
Colorado gives up a PK in 83rd minute. 1-1.
This is like waiting for that last conference final to be over on Selection Sunday for March Madness.
This is great stuff. The NCAA should actually spend a little more money on D3 and take some from D1. Cut out the midweek games so facilitate academics and allow 4-5 Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun games, and limit to total of 16 games, but then spend more on the athletes for the tournament.
Berry seemingly comes out of nowhere to take the SAA AQ.
Muhlenberg breaks through late and can make some noise about a very variable seeding if they hold on last 2 minutes. Haverford may be out.
Tough luck for Colorado. Looks like going to lose 2-1 giving up two goals in last 7 minutes. Three crushing losses to Trinity and according to Mr.Right they are done. How is a team with the geography of CC supposed to get a much better SOS???
Some breathing room for the Pool C hopefuls with Trinitys win, Haverfords lost, and Texas Dallas lost.
Colorado College in a weak conference but they need to take the 1st 2 opening weekends and get into 2 of the best tournaments they can find around the country. If $$$ is an issue then find one in the Midwest. I agree with your point but I do not know what they should do except win their tournament and perform well against Trinity during the season
Pool C Mock Draft 1.0 by Region.
Brandeis
Wheaton MA
Coast Guard
Amherst
Tufts
F&M
Dickinson
Kalamazoo
OWU
John Carroll
Loras
UWW
Rochester
Cortland St.
RPI
Emory
Salisbury
Rutgers-Camden
I think you've just about nailed it lastguy. The questions are Kzoo and Camden, and whether Camden and Gordon have reps on the cmtes pushes the needle. So who are your first 2-3 out?
Kalamazoo and Camden will not get in. Brockport, CMU and WPI will be first 3 out if his Pool C is correct
Mid-atlantic will come down to Haverford or Dickinson. Will be interesting finish as Dickinson finished 0-3-1 and Haverford finished 3-1-1. Will Haverford's result over F&M put them over Dickinson in the rankings?
Watched CC final - congrats to coach Topping and the Muhls.
I still say both teams are safe
Based on simple logic, I would say Haverford gets in over Rutgers-Camden.
I will probably have Pool C 4.0 by noon tomorrow.
Haverford will be 4-4-1 vs RRT... insane SOS, but lost h2h to Dickinson
Dickinson will be 3-4-1 vs RRT... pretty close to SOS vs Haverford, but the additional game Haverford got vs Mules will give them an edge.
Very close call.
Lastguy, you think UWO gets the pool b over UWW?
UWO holds a very slight advantage in SOS, and a head to head win. But UWW has better record vs regionally ranked opponents and has been ranked higher than UWO in the NCAA regional rankings.
CMU has no business in the tournament.
UWW is in UWO is out. CMU has a very good SOS
But they can't score, and by your "eye test" Brockport, Kzoo, Rut-N and probably Rut-C too, Haverford, and even Roanoke, Colorado College, and both UWs are all better. And Luther IMHO would handle CMU easily.
But then again, that's why you are Mr.Right :)
NCAC NE 2.0
Brandeis
Wheaton (MA)
Amherst
Coast Guard
Tufts
F&M
Dickinson/Haverford (but not both)
Salisbury
Emory
Rutgers-Newark
Cortland
Rochester
RPI
OWU
John Carroll
Kalamazoo (the official draw with Calvin gets them in)
Loras
UWW
If Haverford and Dickinson both get in then Kzoo, Rut-N, RPI or John Carroll come off (or UWW getting a Pool B provides extra slot)
Does Rochester definitely beat out RPI head to head on the criteria?
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 09, 2014, 04:52:12 PM
Lastguy, you think UWO gets the pool b over UWW?
UWO holds a very slight advantage in SOS, and a head to head win. But UWW has better record vs regionally ranked opponents and has been ranked higher than UWO in the NCAA regional rankings.
Typo on my behalf. I posted UWW as Pool B earlier today.
Rochester has some prettty big wins, which seem more important than the weak losses to that of Lycoming, NYU, and Morrisville St.
They will be 4-2-1 vs RRT and have a great SOS to go along with it.
RPI will be 0-3-2 vs RRT and a lower SOS than Rochester.
With that being said, Rochester would beat out RPI.
On the other hand, I think RPI would beat out an additional UAA team like CMU.
My question would be; Does CMU resume look better than John Carroll? With CMU drawing vs regionally ranked Emory and JC losing to unranked Heidelburg, CMU could move up.
OK, that makes sense on Rochester, but John Carroll was 10-1 in conference and undefeated in conference until slip-up in final. Overall 17-4 record MUCH better than CMU, and JCU was ranked #2 in the region all 3 weeks I believe. CMU had some losses as bad or worse than Heidelberg. And CMU didn't win either of their last 2 games at home in must-game situations. I don't think mediocrity, even "good" (high SOS) mediocrity should be rewarded. CMU was mediocre for pretty much the entire season.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 09, 2014, 04:28:08 PM
Pool C Mock Draft 1.0 by Region.
Brandeis
Wheaton MA
Coast Guard
Amherst
Tufts
F&M
Dickinson
Kalamazoo
OWU
John Carroll
Loras
UWO
Rochester
Cortland St.
RPI
Emory
Salisbury
Rutgers-Camden
Pool C 2.0
IN
CMU
Haverford
UWO (typo purpose for UWW)
OUT
John Carroll
Rutgers-Camden
UT-Dallas, Roanoke, WPI really needed the AQ in my opinion.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 09, 2014, 05:51:13 PM
OK, that makes sense on Rochester, but John Carroll was 10-1 in conference and undefeated in conference until slip-up in final. Overall 17-4 record MUCH better than CMU, and JCU was ranked #2 in the region all 3 weeks I believe. CMU had some losses as bad or worse than Heidelberg. And CMU didn't win either of their last 2 games at home in must-game situations. I don't think mediocrity, even "good" (high SOS) mediocrity should be rewarded. CMU was mediocre for pretty much the entire season.
The data sheet shows JC as 4-0 vs RRT (the lucky Geneva rank, Case, DePauw, and ONU)... so now I already pull back my CMU in / JC out play! JC back in. And then probably soon to be out, much like Charlie Austin two quick offsides goals vs City yesterday.
Let me put it this way on John Carroll, who I have zero allegiance to. If JCU is out then Tufts should be out, and Salisbury.
BTW, they lost first game of the year to DePauw 1-0 when we all thought DePauw was likely to be a top 15 team, but they beat Capital x2 who I believe was regionally ranked also, so that would make them 5-1 vs ranked. They had a decent schedule. Not their fault that DePauw and Ohio Northern had disappointing seasons, and they played Case.
I think RPI is in trouble. 0-3-2 is not going to get it done. Haverford and Dickinson are in
When does Christian usually write the article about the predictions?
Does anyone have predictions of where teams will end up? Who will host?
Quote from: Durantula on November 09, 2014, 08:19:50 PM
When does Christian usually write the article about the predictions?
It's usually pretty late. Roughly 10:00 (ET) I wanna say from years past. The man works hard. Thanks for all you do Christian! It's all very much appreciated!
Final Mock Pool C
New England: Brandeis, Wheaton, Coast Guard, Amherst, Tufts.
East: Cortland St, Rochester, Brockport St
Mid Atlantic: F&M, Haverford, Dickinson
South Atlantic: Emory, Rutgers-Newark
Great Lakes: John Carroll, OWU
Central: Kalamazoo
North: Loras, UWO
Random thoughts, I'll try to get some predictions done later:
The UAA gets a huge boost because they don't have really bad teams. Even though they've lacked true title contenders over the years, having every team over .500 is a huge edge in terms of actually getting bids. It's a cycle: no bad teams keeps SOS inflated, which gets teams regionally ranked (6 of 8 ranked), which gives teams ranked wins, meaning the UAA setup almost guarantees a strong NCAA profile. Also, these teams are spread out between a bunch of different regions. It's a lot easier to get in that way, because then you are't asking the committee to give 4 at-larges to the same conference AND same region (see Haverford/Dickinson below). That's how a team like Rochester will probably get in even though they only have nine (!!) wins and barely won more than half their games (8 blemishes).
Off all the higher ranked (top 3/region) teams, Salisbury should have the most to worry about. ZERO ranked wins, a decent SOS, but didn't even make the conference championship game. Luckily for them, no bubble teams in that region are going to pass them since Newark also fell flat. They might get one by default unless the committee either puts in Camden (a stretch since they were unranked) or Newark. I think Newark is more deserving but Salisbury is more likely to get a bid.
John Carroll should drop below OWU in the Great Lakes region. OWU's .556 SOS will be even more above JCU's .535 after this week, OWU has more ranked wins, and OWU's conference final loss was much easier to stomach. Frankly, JCU may still get a bid just because they kept fighting yesterday. They were losing 5-2 with 20 left, and getting the doors blown off at home when you're on the bubble may have ended things.
I think Dickinson and Haverford both deserve bids, but it might be a tough sell just because of how the selection committee works. If they're sitting there trying to get both of those teams in, that means that you're asking for four from the same conference. It's hard to convince the other regional representatives to put a third at-large from the same region ahead of the best at-large from another region, let alone the same conference.
No teams have done as much recently as Kalamazoo or Rutgers-Camden to get into the field, but they're both up against history. Neither was in the last regional rankings, and it's almost impossible to get in without being in those rankings. Camden has 9 blemishes, 8 (!!) losses, and also lost its conference championship game. Kalamazoo will get a bumped for SOS and didn't lose to Calvin (PK loss = draw), but also has 9 blemishes.
I have RPI, Salisbury, Camden, WPI as first four out. Brockport St and Kzoo as last teams in.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 09, 2014, 09:15:18 PM
Final Mock Pool C
New England: Brandeis, Wheaton, Coast Guard, Amherst, Tufts.
East: Cortland St, Rochester, Brockport St
Mid Atlantic: F&M, Haverford, Dickinson
South Atlantic: Emory, Rutgers-Newark
Great Lakes: John Carroll, OWU
Central: Kalamazoo
North: Loras, UWO
My trusty spreadsheet agrees with a couple of exceptions. I have RPI, Salisbury and North Park in, Kalamazoo, UWO and Brockport St. out.
My last teams in are John Carroll and Cortland. My first three out are UWO, Brockport St and WPI.
At-Large Predictions
New England (5)
Brandeis
Wheaton (Mass.)
Coast Guard
Amherst
Tufts
East (2)
Cortland State
Rochester
Mid-Atlantic (3)
F&M
Dickinson
Haverford
South Atlantic (3)
Emory
Salisbury
Rutgers-Newark
Great Lakes (2)
Ohio Wesleyan
John Carroll
Central (1)
North Park
North (2)
Loras
UW-Oshkosh
West (0)
Final Mock (Until change my mind)
Brandeis
Wheaton
Amherst
Coast Guard
Tufts
Cortland
Rochester
Brockport (good SOS, 10-3-6, 1-3-2 vs ranked but this spot could go to Kzoo or North Park)
F&M
Dickinson (Same SOS and better ranked than Haverford and less blemishes -- 3-3-1 vs 2-5)
Emory
Rutgers-Newark
Salisbury
OWU
John Carroll (Christan has listed as 2-1 vs ranked but I think it's 4-1 and decent SOS and do not see strong argument for CMU here)
Kalamazoo (not sure on SOS but best record vs ranked against rest of these candidates with 3 wins over Hope, win over Chicago, and tie with Calvin, and although long forgotten North Park could get this with only has 6 blemishes, very high SOS but only 2-4 vs ranked )
Loras
Pool B -- UWW
Just miss -- North Park, UWO, Haverford, Camden
Three or four byes this year? Messiah, Brandeis, Wheaton IL to host all the way to KC if they?
For the official record:
New England (5)
Brandeis
Wheaton (Mass.)
Amherst
Coast Guard
Tufts
East (3)
Rochester
RPI
Cortland State
Mid-Atlantic (3)
F&M
Dickinson
Haverford
South Atlantic (3)
Emory
Rutgers-Newark
Salisbury
Great Lakes (2)
Ohio Wesleyan
John Carroll
Central (1)
North Park
North (1)
Loras
West (0)
Last 2 in: Cortland St, John Carroll
First 3 out: UWO, Brockport St and WPI
I'll add my predictions to the mix:
New England (4)
Brandeis
Wheaton (Mass.)
Coast Guard
Amherst
East (2)
Cortland State
Rochester
Mid-Atlantic (2)
F&M
Dickinson
South Atlantic (3)
Emory
Salisbury
Rutgers-Newark
Great Lakes (2)
Ohio Wesleyan
John Carroll
Central (2)
North Park
Kalamazoo
North (2)
Loras
UW-W
West (1)
Texas-Dallas
How do the first round byes work exactly? Are they based on region?
Mr.Right? Predictions?
Very interested how North Park hasn't been mentioned in days and now all of the sudden N. Park is voted in or at least mentioned in almost every mock submission.
Quote from: chelseafc30 on November 09, 2014, 10:19:33 PM
How do the first round byes work exactly? Are they based on region?
I would think most deserving and ability to host with regard to money being spent . Last year it was owu, Camden, loras...
Must be basing North Park on stability of the region and history of the NCAA rankings. What's the point of conference finals if there is very little movement in said rankings? The conference tournaments should make or break teams!
I'm flattered that my prediction column produces such interest year after year. I honestly feel that other fans that have followed D-III soccer for a number of years like some posters on this board could do an equally good job as I or better. I think what I have done best in past years is to try not to over-think it. The committee is fairly predictable, so just go with the obvious most times. And just don't ever let your own opinion of who you think deserves it more come into it at all.
Anyway, my personal/family life has taken my attention off the site more than would be idea at this juncture of the season, so I am scrambling to dig into the at-large landscape without the benefit of having had time over the past several days to do a lot of the prep work. So, word of warning, stay up late trying to see my predictions at your own risk, as they might only get posted early tomorrow. Sorry!
That said, there's been comments about the record versus ranked. In the Pre-Championships Manual, there is no longer any language to suggest that once a team is regionally ranked once they always count towards your record versus ranked. The language was as follows: "Once a team is ranked in the sport's official rankings, it is always considered ranked." However, sometime in the past few years that language was removed from the manual. The statement with no qualification is currently: "Results versus ranked Division III teams as established by the rankings at the time of selection." I take that to mean that when evaluating teams for the third weekly rankings, the second weekly rankings are the basis for who is considered a ranked opponent. And therefore tonight, the third weekly rankings would serve as the basis as they ranked the teams to aid their at-large decisions. So that's how I updated the record versus ranked, before remembering to try to confirm if that's how it was really being done be taking a look at the third weekly data sheets. Spot-checking, it appears that maybe they are continuing with a once ranked, always ranked approach. Not sure I will have time to go back an correct that or not. Anyone else have insight on how the record versus ranked is being handled? Any more spot-checking of the third weekly data sheets to confirm one way or another?
Diggin' in for a late night! Sugar and caffeine, please!
I know in the third weekly data sheet UWW had 3-1-1 for record versus ranked, which means they kept their win over North Central even when North Central was dropped out of the rankings after the first week. I took that to mean they were continuing the once-ranked always-ranked, although it's interesting that they took that language out. I would definitely be interested to get confirmation on that.
Also, cheers for doing the prediction column! Always look forward to it.
Thank you for all you do Christian! Would just like to mention that UWW is 3-2-1 vs ranked, if that makes your case for pool b any clearer.
Quote from: WarhawkFan on November 09, 2014, 11:16:46 PM
I know in the third weekly data sheet UWW had 3-1-1 for record versus ranked, which means they kept their win over North Central even when North Central was dropped out of the rankings after the first week. I took that to mean they were continuing the once-ranked always-ranked, although it's interesting that they took that language out. I would definitely be interested to get confirmation on that.
That's the most obvious "spot-check" that has me thinking I goofed in my updates. I personally think they should update it weekly and remove results against teams that are no longer ranked. And the current manual makes no suggestion of the once-ranked, always-ranked approach. But, that very well maybe what they are still doing. Ughh! Maybe I'll re-do it before morning.
OK, I've done more spot-checking and I have concluded that the record for ranked does not typically include results against teams previously but not currently ranked. That is, my spot-checking suggests that a once ranked, always ranked appraoch is NOT being used. Here are four examples:
Messiah
2nd Weekly Data Sheet: 3-0-0 record vs. ranked (wins over Dickinson, Montclair St., Lycoming)
3rd Weekly Data Sheet: 3-0-0 record vs. ranked (wins over Dickinson, Montclair St., Catholic)
If the once ranked, always ranked appraoch was being used, the win over Lycoming (no longer ranked in second week) would not come off, but it must have as the previous win versus the newly ranked Catholic would have been added yet the total wins stayed at 3.
Rochester
2nd Weekly Data Sheet: 2-2-1 record vs. ranked (wins over Brandeis, St. Lawrence, losses to Lycoming, Chicago, tie with Oneonta)
3rd Weekly Data Sheet: 3-2-1 record vs. ranked (wins over Brandeis, St. Lawrence, Carnegie Mellon, losses to Chicago, Emory, tie with Oneonta)
If the once ranked, always ranked appraoch was being used, the previous loss to Lycoming (no longer ranked in second week) would not come off, but it must have as the new loss versus Emory would have been added yet the total losses stayed at 2.
Ohio Wesleyan
2nd Weekly Data Sheet: 2-2-2 record vs. ranked (wins over Hope, DePauw, losses to Calvin, Capital, ties with Centre, Kenyon)
3rd Weekly Data Sheet: 2-2-2 record vs. ranked (wins over Hope, Ohio Northern, losses to Calvin, Capital, ties with Centre, Kenyon)
If the once ranked, always ranked appraoch was being used, the previous win over DePauw (no longer ranked in second week) would not come off, but it must have as the previous win versus the newly ranked Ohio Northern would have been added yet the total wins stayed at 2.
Connecticut
2nd Weekly Data Sheet: 1-4-0 record vs. ranked (win over Williams, losses to Middlebury, Amherst, Coast Guard, Tufts)
3rd Weekly Data Sheet: 2-5-0 record vs. ranked (wins over Williams, Tufts, losses to Middlebury, Amherst, Coast Guard, Tufts, Eastern Connecticut)
If the once ranked, always ranked appraoch was being used, the new loss to previously ranked Wesleyan would have been added bringing the total losses to 6, but only the previous loss to newly ranked Eastern Connecticut could have been added to reach a total of only 5 losses.
These examples are consistent with a plain understanding of the Manual which makes no mention any more of a once ranked, always ranked approach. So, I think there was a clerical error in the case of UW-Whitewater and that the win over North Central (Ill.) should have been removed in the 3rd Weekly data sheet. The updated records versus ranked in my prediction column will remain as I originally adjusted them to remove results against teams that fell out of the rankings.
Quote from: Soccergeek on November 09, 2014, 10:18:29 PM
I'll add my predictions to the mix:
[...]
West (1)
Texas-Dallas
UT-D has an early season W against Trinity (TX) - good
They have bad losses to Birmingham-Southern, Hardin-Simmons, UMHB (and a tie) plus a tie with Austin. BSC and HSU are decent but unranked, making the losses 'bad'.
I wonder if the HSU loss yesterday is enough to push them below UC-Santa Cruz, who was ranked one spot below them last week and had no games last week. UCSC certainly played more ranked teams during the season, though they didn't have much success (1-3-2) the better schedule might push them ahead of UT-D.
Great job and analysis as always Christan.
A few teams prominently discussed in the thread that didn't make your bubble group....RPI, Camden, Kzoo, Why Haverford but not Camden? What if Kzoo had cracked the last regional ranking? And on Colorado, I guess there is no such thing as good losses....3 one goal losses to one of the top 4 teams in the country (at least by polls).
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 08:23:03 AM
Great job and analysis as always Christan.
A few teams prominently discussed in the thread that didn't make your bubble group....RPI, Camden, Kzoo, Why Haverford but not Camden? What if Kzoo had cracked the last regional ranking? And on Colorado, I guess there is no such thing as good losses....3 one goal losses to one of the top 4 teams in the country (at least by polls).
I guess I just keep going back to the assumption that has served my predictions well in past years that the rankings do indeed very accurately foreshadow the eventual at-large selections. If the committee throws out a bunch of curve balls this year, I may have to re-think my approach. Based on previous seasons' selections, I just don't see Camden and Kalamazoo coming out of no where to snag a berth, but who knows. Colorado was ranked until the final week, but selecting them would still buck history and the combination of a very low .500 SOS and no wins versus ranked teams (the two stats the committee seems to weigh most heavily), why would they move back into and far enough up the West rankings to be in the conversation? And what's the argument for RPI to climb ahead of Brockport (or it the thinking that both get invited?)?
Personally, I get the arguments in favor of some of these teams, but I'm trying to predict what the NCAA committee will do, not who I think is most deserving. And I've had a pretty good track record (or luck?) in recent years with my prediction, but maybe this is the year I'm off the mark. We'll see soon enough.
Good stuff, Christan, especially given the fact that you have a newborn at home. I would only add two notes to your predictions:
- I believe Tufts is a definite bubble team due to their quarterfinal defeat and possibly one of the last ones in or out.
- I could see the committee looking at Kalamazoo and their three victories over Hope and putting them in Hope's shoes, for regional ranking purposes (i.e., concluding they should have been ranked in Hope's place and giving them credit for that). If they did that, one could see Kzoo getting a Pool C bid. However, it could just as easily go as you predict (i.e., they weren't ranked, so they don't qualify to be picked).
Clearly, there will be a lot of nervous teams this afternoon.
While I am not a Tufts fan, I am a fan of the NESCAC, and I must say that it would be a travesty for the Jumbos not to get a bid. I went back to see their resume and would just like to throw out some telling stats:
Only two losses on the year, one away to Brandeis (#7).
An UNDEFEATED regular season in arguably the toughest conference in D3 soccer.
Tied Amherst at home (#19), Bowdoin away (winner of the NESCAC conference tournament), and Middlebury away (another NESCAC bubble team who lost to Bowdoin in PKs in the conference semifinal).
Tufts led the NESCAC in both goals per game, at 2.2 (!), and goals against, at .59. To me, those stats alone make it almost inconceivable that Tufts would be on the bubble.
Additionally, in their quarter final loss, they outshot Conn College 20-10 and had 9 corners to the Camels' 1. Sometimes the ball does not bounce your way. Again, keep in mind that that was the SECOND loss all year for Tufts, and came in postseason play. Going undefeated in the NESCAC regular season is almost unheard of, and I do not think one fluke postseason loss should knock a team capable of such an accomplishment out of the NCAAs...
If Tufts does not get a bid, then the NCAA tournament will be without one of the most dangerous and exciting teams in the nation. I've watched several of their games this year, and I must say that I can really see them making a deep run. Anyway, I'm hoping for the best for this talented squad that I've enjoyed watching throughout the year.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 08:23:03 AM
Great job and analysis as always Christan.
A few teams prominently discussed in the thread that didn't make your bubble group....RPI, Camden, Kzoo, Why Haverford but not Camden? What if Kzoo had cracked the last regional ranking? And on Colorado, I guess there is no such thing as good losses....3 one goal losses to one of the top 4 teams in the country (at least by polls).
As an NJAC and Camden supporter, I think Haverford would get the nod over Camden.
Haverford 60.5 win % (8 blemishes) 3-5-1 .604 SOS (before playing JHU, F&M, and Mules; 37-7-6)
Camden 61.4 win % (9 blemishes) 2-4-0 .589 SOS (before playing MSU and RU-N; 31-8)
Haverford leads in two of the three statistical categories and has the h2h W, but I think the South Atlantic is a stronger region as a whole.
Haverford made a move by playing 5 NJAC teams (finished 3-2 record).
Camden had a schedule where they played top teams from various conf. (CNU - AQ, Lynchburg - AQ, F&M - Pool C lock, Eastern - lost in conf. final).
Camden will be on the outside looking in because of the loss to Cabrini and Rowan. If they were to finish 14-6-2, they'd be in.
For me, it would be why Newark, but not Camden?
I think Kzoo is very deserving. Should get in but probably won't over NPU because of SOS. They have the better regional record and were a shot away in PKs from winning the AQ over Calvin. Kzoo has a better record vs RRT and has the strong win over Chicago.
It's comical that we are talking about Tufts being worried for a bid, but a team like Coast Guard is presumably safe.
Christan I am sure you will be VERY accurate as always.
I see the difference now between Haverford (ranked all 3 weeks, and not at the bottom either) and Camden (not ranked at all any of the 3 weeks), even though on paper, not looking at the rankings, I don't see Haverford as having an edge on Camden.
I get RPI and would not have jumped them over Brockport.
Kzoo is probably the one I think has the strongest case to at least crack the bubble list, but again, I get that, so far, they were not ranked.
I think what threw off most of us amateurs, at least until seeing Christan's layout of the ranked teams, is North Park. After seeing the layout several of us scrambled and revised and put North Park in. Important to remember that they tied Elmhurst rather than "lost."
The others that many have talked about quite a bit as in trouble are Dickinson and Newark. Again, the layout helps show why they likely are not in trouble.
The teams that were ranked, and I think all 3 weeks, and not getting much consideration in terms of even the bubble are Centre, St Olaf, Dominican, and Tex-Dallas (and I wouldn't have any of them in either but it is interesting going by the rankings emphasis).
I will be very curious to see where they place some of these teams and who gets the toughest quadrant (at least on paper). I'm guessing the Mid/South Atlantic and Great Lakes/Central will be the toughest, although the latter will depend heavily on where they put Calvin, Wheaton and F&M.
Side note: Wondering if the best team in the country barely talked about is Muhlenberg. Great season for them.
Per Christan's sheet:
School (w/Record) SOS
Brandeis (17-2-0) 0.633
Rochester (9-5-3) 0.627
Case Western (8-6-4) 0.607
Dickinson (11-5-2) 0.604
Haverford (11-7-1) 0.604
Emory (13-3-2) 0.603
Wesleyan (8-5-3) 0.6
North Park (13-5-1) 0.597
Wheaton (Mass.) (16-3-2) 0.597
Centre (8-4-6) 0.591
UC Santa Cruz (11-6-1) 0.589
Amherst (13-1-4) 0.587
Carnegie Mellon (8-5-3) 0.586
Coast Guard (13-2-3) 0.58
RPI (12-4-3) 0.58
Tufts (10-2-4) 0.576
Loras (15-2-2) 0.575
Franklin & Marshall (15-1-2) 0.573
DePauw (10-8-1) 0.57
Brockport State (10-3-6) 0.568
Johns Hopkins (9-7-2) 0.567
Carleton (10-7-2) 0.566
UW-Oshkosh (14-5-2) 0.56
Rutgers-Newark (15-5-0) 0.557
Ohio Wesleyan (15-4-2) 0.556
Salisbury (12-2-5) 0.556
UW-Whitewater (13-4-4) 0.552
St. Olaf (12-5-2) 0.55
Hope (13-7-1) 0.548
Cortland State (14-4-1) 0.547
Dominican (14-5-2) 0.545
Gordon (14-5-2) 0.545
Ohio Northern (12-8-1) 0.537
John Carroll (17-4-0) 0.535
Middlebury (9-3-5) 0.533
WPI (14-5-0) 0.533
Occidental (13-6-1) 0.52
Texas-Dallas (13-4-3) 0.516
Lycoming (15-3-3) 0.504
------------------------------------------------
Tufts is gonna be fine. I think the only reason some are nervous is because it is a little bit of "out of sight, out of mind." Agree with your comment about Coast Guard too lastguy. It seems to me they are one of the teams that benefits from a superficially inflated SOS, and Ryan H made a great point about how the UAA circularly feeds its high SOSs. Rochester really should be on the bubble but not a single person has doubted that UR is getting in (and they will be dangeous and a handful to take out especially getting a second life).
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 09:41:07 AM
It's comical that we are talking about Tufts being worried for a bid, but a team like Coast Guard is presumably safe.
Except that Coast Guard has a better winning % against a stronger SOS AND a better record vs ranked teams. It is just a very unusual year. I also think Tufts is very safe and not in bubble territory.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 09:49:23 AM
Per Christan's sheet:
School (w/Record) SOS
Brandeis (17-2-0) 0.633
Rochester (9-5-3) 0.627
Case Western (8-6-4) 0.607
Dickinson (11-5-2) 0.604
Haverford (11-7-1) 0.604
Emory (13-3-2) 0.603
Wesleyan (8-5-3) 0.6
North Park (13-5-1) 0.597
Wheaton (Mass.) (16-3-2) 0.597
Centre (8-4-6) 0.591
UC Santa Cruz (11-6-1) 0.589
Amherst (13-1-4) 0.587
Carnegie Mellon (8-5-3) 0.586
Coast Guard (13-2-3) 0.58
RPI (12-4-3) 0.58
Tufts (10-2-4) 0.576
Loras (15-2-2) 0.575
Franklin & Marshall (15-1-2) 0.573
DePauw (10-8-1) 0.57
Brockport State (10-3-6) 0.568
Johns Hopkins (9-7-2) 0.567
Carleton (10-7-2) 0.566
UW-Oshkosh (14-5-2) 0.56
Rutgers-Newark (15-5-0) 0.557
Ohio Wesleyan (15-4-2) 0.556
Salisbury (12-2-5) 0.556
UW-Whitewater (13-4-4) 0.552
St. Olaf (12-5-2) 0.55
Hope (13-7-1) 0.548
Cortland State (14-4-1) 0.547
Dominican (14-5-2) 0.545
Gordon (14-5-2) 0.545
Ohio Northern (12-8-1) 0.537
John Carroll (17-4-0) 0.535
Middlebury (9-3-5) 0.533
WPI (14-5-0) 0.533
Occidental (13-6-1) 0.52
Texas-Dallas (13-4-3) 0.516
Lycoming (15-3-3) 0.504
------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, I did NOT compute updated SOS numbers. Those are the ones from the 3rd weekly data sheets. I only updated the W-L-T records and record versus ranked teams. SOS is too much to compute for so many teams, so I just assume that as this point, one week doesn't make too much a difference and by now we have the gist of where teams' SOS stack up.
Quote from: Soccergeek on November 10, 2014, 09:09:54 AM- I believe Tufts is a definite bubble team due to their quarterfinal defeat and possibly one of the last ones in or out.
My distinct impression for a decade of closely following and analyzing the rankings and at-large selections is that no heed is given to whether a game was a conference tournament game or simply a regular season game. Thus the only penalty for losing a quarterfinal game is the direct hit to the W-L-T record (and the record vs. ranked, if applicable). In other words, I've seen no evidence that it's an extra strike against a team to exit early from a conference tournament. And quite frankly it shouldn't. So one team gets upset in a non-conference game or even a conference game, but another team has their encounter with the mischievousness of the soccer gods in a conference quarterfinal and that should be held against them more than the other team's loss? Now, indirectly it could cost a team the chance to pick up a win vs. ranked in the semifinals depending on who they would have met. But the bottom line for me is that conference tournament games seem to be treated as just another game between two teams, nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 10, 2014, 09:34:33 AM
While I am not a Tufts fan, I am a fan of the NESCAC, and I must say that it would be a travesty for the Jumbos not to get a bid. I went back to see their resume and would just like to throw out some telling stats:
Only two losses on the year, one away to Brandeis (#7).
An UNDEFEATED regular season in arguably the toughest conference in D3 soccer.
Tied Amherst at home (#19), Bowdoin away (winner of the NESCAC conference tournament), and Middlebury away (another NESCAC bubble team who lost to Bowdoin in PKs in the conference semifinal).
Tufts led the NESCAC in both goals per game, at 2.2 (!), and goals against, at .59. To me, those stats alone make it almost inconceivable that Tufts would be on the bubble.
Additionally, in their quarter final loss, they outshot Conn College 20-10 and had 9 corners to the Camels' 1. Sometimes the ball does not bounce your way. Again, keep in mind that that was the SECOND loss all year for Tufts, and came in postseason play. Going undefeated in the NESCAC regular season is almost unheard of, and I do not think one fluke postseason loss should knock a team capable of such an accomplishment out of the NCAAs...
If Tufts does not get a bid, then the NCAA tournament will be without one of the most dangerous and exciting teams in the nation. I've watched several of their games this year, and I must say that I can really see them making a deep run. Anyway, I'm hoping for the best for this talented squad that I've enjoyed watching throughout the year.
Oldonionbag....I am in agreement with you that Tufts deserves to be in....they lost to Conn in a wind driven rainstorm and had Conn on the ropes the entire 2nd half but given the conditions and bounce (or in this case hydroplane) of the ball they don't get a result vs Conn, but they are absolutely a tremendous team and should be in the tourney....going undefeated in the NESCAC is no small fete.
If there is a surprise based on Christan's forecast, I think it will come from Brockport or Kzoo, and not sure which one I would give the edge to. Will not be shocked either if WPI gets a bid. Would be amazing to see the Centennial and NEWMAC both get 4.
Looking at his sheet, I only have two different picks:
Brockport St over Salisbury (they tied during the year, Salisbury better win percentage, but Brockport St stronger SOS and win over SLU)
Kzoo over NPU (just a hunch here, even though Christan has NPU in the "Pretty Good Shape" slot and Kzoo off the grid.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 09:47:05 AM
Christan I am sure you will be VERY accurate as always.
I'm more than expecting one of these years to look silly and get a bunch wrong. But it's always nice when I nail it pretty close and and it's good for the website because the column grows in popularity and credibility, pushing up the hits and visits to the page and the site the next year.
One other likely difference in my outlook and some on here could stem from the whole updating of the record versus ranked teams. For example, if I am correct in how this works (as I explained in earlier posts), John Carroll goes from an impressive 4-0-0 record vs. ranked last week to moderate 2-1-0 record. That can be a huge difference when comparing teams, especially if the other team had a positive impact from who dropped out and who entered the most recent rankings. I almost had John Carroll on the bubble because of that change.
To emphasize Christian's point, that takes JCU from 4-0-0 versus ranked to 2-1-0 versus ranked. It also bumps Ohio Wesleyan from 2-2-2 versus ranked to 4-2-2 versus ranked: Beat Depauw X2, Ohio Northern, Hope; lost to Calvin and Kenyon; tied Centre and Kenyon. That should almost certainly bump them ahead of JCU and put JCU much closer to the bubble.
So basically DePauw jumping back into the rankings and Capital dropping out cost JCU two ranked wins and added a ranked loss, while simultaneously adding two ranked wins to OWU's resume and removing a loss. Big difference.
Well, I'm off to class. Once again I would like to thank you for everything Christan, I woke up randomly at 5:30 last night and you were still at work. I think I speak for everyone here, your work is highly regarded and respected.
To the rest of my d3boarder's, I wish the best for all of our teams and it's been a pleasure! Good Luck!
And yet they probably should still count as pretty good wins. Assuming Heidelberg jumps into the last couple of Great Lakes slots in secret rankings they would pick up another win and another loss. At any rate, 2-1 is still as good or better than some of the other teams on the bubble.
No question that OWU jumped them and just by "eye test" of schedule OWU's wins and close losses against ranked far more impressive.
And as another side note, when was the last time Heidelberg made the NCAA tournament? Congrats to the Student Princes.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 10:55:41 AM
And yet they probably should still count as pretty good wins. Assuming Heidelberg jumps into the last couple of Great Lakes slots in secret rankings they would pick up another win and another loss.
NCAC, who else do you think drops out/jumps into the final Great Lakes secret rankings?
Quote from: chelseafc30 on November 10, 2014, 11:05:24 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 10:55:41 AM
And yet they probably should still count as pretty good wins. Assuming Heidelberg jumps into the last couple of Great Lakes slots in secret rankings they would pick up another win and another loss.
NCAC, who else do you think drops out/jumps into the final Great Lakes secret rankings?
I think it's a moot point because the only teams that are relevant are Kenyon, OWU and JCU.
Just as with the Luther situation, I never understood Wabash not cracking the rankings and no reason to think they did here at the end. IMHO Case and CMU were weak #4s and #5s compared to recent years, and seeing DePauw and Ohio Northern in there week after week with very mediocre records shows that it was a very weak year for Great Lakes overall.
I think it's possible Thomas More jumped to #4 (but they're an AQ so not really important).
Which raises an interesting point. IF teams do drop out of the last "secret" rankings, and IF the most recent rankings are the only thing that counts in computing record against ranked, then those records against ranked could change quite a bit.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 10, 2014, 10:41:22 AM
To emphasize Christian's point, that takes JCU from 4-0-0 versus ranked to 2-1-0 versus ranked. It also bumps Ohio Wesleyan from 2-2-2 versus ranked to 4-2-2 versus ranked: Beat Depauw X2, Ohio Northern, Hope; lost to Calvin and Kenyon; tied Centre and Kenyon. That should almost certainly bump them ahead of JCU and put JCU much closer to the bubble.
So basically DePauw jumping back into the rankings and Capital dropping out cost JCU two ranked wins and added a ranked loss, while simultaneously adding two ranked wins to OWU's resume and removing a loss. Big difference.
So you're saying I got the updated record vs. ranked wrong for OWU? 4-2-2 instead of 3-2-2? Most have missed counting both wins vs. DePauw. Makes me wonder how many others I got wrong!!! :o I need to build a bigger, better spreadsheet to do the work for me! I was just manually doing it last night.
I looked back and the language in the manual changed for the 2013 season. I don't remember if I really took note of that last season. But with
out a once ranked, always ranked approach, it would make sense that the rankings become more fluid from week 2 to week 3 and again before the "secret" rankings.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 11:13:30 AM
Which raises an interesting point. IF teams do drop out of the last "secret" rankings, and IF the most recent rankings are the only thing that counts in computing record against ranked, then those records against ranked could change quite a bit.
This was the reason I was asking. With the region being weak this year, I feel like alot of different teams could have dropped out or jumped into the final rankings, which could greatly alter the ranked record for Kenyon, OWU, and JC.
So, let's say DePauw and Ohio Northern dropped out and Heidelberg came in to secret rankings, then JCU would be still be 2-1, LOL?!
I am sure Christan has it right but the more I think about the more I think it should be the other way (if ranked any of the 3 weeks). It should be closer to how the opponent was considered at the time you played them.
There are lots of teams that would impact the Great Lakes records (and I'm sure in other regions too), as one can picture Ohio Northern and possibly DePauw falling out, Centre falling out, Heidelberg coming in (Kenyon played them but OWU didn't), Hope maybe dropping out, etc.
Centre is in the South Atlantic...
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 10:55:41 AM
And yet they probably should still count as pretty good wins. Assuming Heidelberg jumps into the last couple of Great Lakes slots in secret rankings they would pick up another win and another loss. At any rate, 2-1 is still as good or better than some of the other teams on the bubble.
No question that OWU jumped them and just by "eye test" of schedule OWU's wins and close losses against ranked far more impressive.
And as another side note, when was the last time Heidelberg made the NCAA tournament? Congrats to the Student Princes.
2007 - this year is also the last for their HC - 26 years as Heidelberg's HC. Nice going away present the boys gave him . . .
One misconception I have sensed here and in some e-mails I've received is that the new "secret" rankings can change the record vs. ranked which could help or hurt one's team. But that's not really possible if you think about it. They need the data, like "record vs. ranked" in order to decide on the new rankings, so how can the "record vs. ranked" be based on the new rankings? One has to come first, and that is the data. So the "record vs. ranked" in the data sheets that were developed yesterday and provided to the committee were based on the teams ranked in the third weekly rankings. If they immediately updated and reviewed the "record vs. ranked" again after they decided on the new "secret" rankings, would they reconsider their rankings? If so, they'd be creating an infinite loop.
So there's no need to try to project who might be ranked and how that would affect the "record vs. ranked". We can know the "record vs. ranked" that was being used for making the final "secret" rankings that serve as the basis for the at-large selections by looking at the teams included in the third weekly rankings. And that it what I went about doing when I updated the "record vs. ranked" shown in the tables of my column.
I don't think it creates an infinite loop. Perhaps one iteration or two will zoom in on a stable result. For example, what if Rutgers-Camden were to sneak into the South Atlantic ranking? Rutgers-Newark's record vs. ranked would suddenly go from 2-2 to 2-4. That might change considerably how they are viewed vs. Salisbury.
I think it points out a serious flaw in taking record vs ranked too seriously.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 12:11:55 PM
Centre is in the South Atlantic...
Right, but would still count as a ranked team?
Dominican?!
UT-Dallas not only gets in but gets to host - didn't even win their own conference! Trinity (TX) sent there along with Hardin-Simmons.
Dominican and UT-D flying under the radar to get in. Complete shocker.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2014, 01:38:09 PM
UT-Dallas not only gets in but gets to host - didn't even win their own conference! Trinity (TX) sent there along with Hardin-Simmons.
Shocked by that. Absolutely shocked.
Poor John Carroll . . .
SLU vs Amherst potential rematch again...
OWU vs Calvin...
Did Salisbury get in? I missed one name and I think it may have been them.
Christian- yes:
http://www.ncaa.com/news/soccer-men/article/2014-11-10/field-61-contenders-announced-2014-diii-soccer-championship
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 10, 2014, 01:45:18 PM
Did Salisbury get in? I missed one name and I think it may have been them.
yes, they are in.
Dominican and UT-Dallas are surprise inclusions, to understate things. Dominican was nowhere on the radar: 1-3 vs ranked, average .545 SOS. UT-Dallas is even worse: .516 SOS, only one ranked GAME (granted, a win over Trinity).
If I'm John Carroll or Haverford I'm flipping out. The only explanation for UT-Dallas is the regional thing - no at large bids last year, giving them one this year. Could be the same explanation for Dominican, but Dominican's only (and I do mean only) win of consequence is over North Park.
And NO Kzoo...
Some massive games even in 1st round...like Rochester vs Salisbury...and blockbuster sweet 16 games...SLU vs Amherst in round of 32?
Texas-Dallas is just really shocking! 4 losses and 7 total blemishes playing a .516 SOS and only getting a single win vs. ranked! Doesn't make sense because it's inconsistent with what the committee typical rewards.
So I wrongly predicted John Carroll, Haverford, and UW-Oshkosh instead of the selected Dominican, Brockport State, and Texas-Dallas.
Brockport State was always right in the mix and included in my bubble. No surprise we them getting in.
Dominican isn't as shocking as Texas-Dallas, but still hard to figure. Their win over North Park must have convinced the committee. UW-Oshkosh, for example, had the exact same W-L-T record, a little better SOS, and a little better record versus ranked teams (1-2-2 vs. 1-3-0), yet Dominican gets it over them. But Dominican beat North Park while Oshkosh lost to them. So that record versus common opponents must have swung it over to Dominican apparently.
I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later, but that's the first of them.
My favorite/most intriguing first round games:
Dickinson vs Tufts...
Catholics vs Coast Guard
Rutgers-Newark vs Babson
MSU vs Stevens
MSU could be primed to make a deep run... I see them reaching Elite 8
F&M would have to get through Rochester, Oneonta St, Brandeis/Amherst/SLU. Make the Mid-Atlantic proud, Diplomats.
Yeah, they made New England a killer region....the price to pay for getting to avoid Messiah.
So did Trinity just not get to host because of the two red cards at the end of last season or what is the situation with that?
They needed someone close to Trinity to save some cash I guess. UT-D, a step ahead of Lycoming. SURE!
Quote from: Durantula on November 10, 2014, 02:08:20 PM
So did Trinity just not get to host because of the two red cards at the end of last season or what is the situation with that?
It would be interesting to know about that. And was Texas-Dallas, consequently, invited just to provide an alternate host site that would also minimize travel? Is it possible that Hardin-Simmons did not bid to host, making giving a berth to Texas-Dallas crucial for minimizing travel? Very interesting.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
They needed someone close to Trinity to save some cash I guess. UT-D, a step ahead of Lycoming. SURE!
At the end of the day its all about money I guess.
How about Whitworth getting shipped out to Atlanta? Very strange placement.
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 10, 2014, 02:20:50 PM
How about Whitworth getting shipped out to Atlanta? Very strange placement.
A lot of direct flights into Atlanta!
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 10, 2014, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: Durantula on November 10, 2014, 02:08:20 PM
So did Trinity just not get to host because of the two red cards at the end of last season or what is the situation with that?
It would be interesting to know about that. And was Texas-Dallas, consequently, invited just to provide an alternate host site that would also minimize travel? Is it possible that Hardin-Simmons did not bid to host, making giving a berth to Texas-Dallas crucial for minimizing travel? Very interesting.
The selection is supposed to be completely separate from the bracketing. So, travel concerns should have no bearing on what teams get into the tournament. At least that's how it is supposed to work.
Let's Literally Go.
Final Four Prediction:
Brandeis
Chicago
Messiah
Emory
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 10, 2014, 02:52:39 PM
Let's Literally Go.
Final Four Prediction:
Brandeis
Chicago
Messiah
Emory
Really? Three UAA teams? I know the UAA is a great conference, but three is a bit excessive. The UAA usually under performs in the national tournament. Surprise pick, Bowdoin. mmitmnbmbitmy
It's pretty conservative, but I think I would go Brandeis, Wheaton IL, Messiah and Kenyon for final 4.
I have zero UAA teams reaching the Elite 8. Have the boys from CSS upsetting Chicago as well.
At a quick first glance still trying to pick SUNY-Oneonta quadrant but leaning F&M; Wheaton, Messiah, MSU...
F&M/Amherst
Wheaton/Trinity
Messiah/Tufts
OWU/MSU
Wheaton over F&M
Messiah over MSU
Messiah over Wheaton
St. Scholastica is definitely not a team to sleep on. Feisty Brits that have some pretty skilled players. I could see them pulling off an upset or two in their quadrant.
I am really disappointed for RPI. I did realize last night John Carroll and RPI would not get in but I did not think Brockport deserved to get in ahead of them. 10-3-6 is just telling schools to play a decent schedule and play 10 deep. In the end the RvR really hurt RPI
Initial impressions....
Wheaton (Ill) at least by rankings and general impressions here skipped over some power teams for a #1 seed and even got a bye. That said, they are one of the teams (other than Messiah) that I would most want to avoid. They have pretty easy passage to Elite 8 comparatively but Wartburg (if Wart gets by Chicago) could be trouble. Still, when you look at the other brackets Wheaton did well. Loras and Trinity have pretty easy roads to the sweet 16 (which would be a monster sweet 16 game) assuming Loras can deal with GAC.
Brandeis and F&M have tough roads with Brockpt/Bowdoin and SLU/Amherst on the Brandeis side and then Oneonta and Rochester/Salisbury on F&M side. Oneonta has easy path to sweet 16.
Kenyon avoids Messiah, Wheaton (Ill) and F&M, but could face a tough North Park and then Calvin/OWU winner. I could not take another Kenyon-OWU game...maybe in the Elite 8 but not in sweet 16. The other side isn't bad either with Montclair, CNU, Emory and Whitworth.
And I don't see a single team that can trouble Messiah in that quadrant. Maybe Cortland can give them a game, and maybe Muhlenberg if the Mules who appear to have realtively easy passage to the sweet 16 can get through Wheaton (MA)/Tufts/Dickinson.
The quadrants seem pretty balanced with power teams although Messiah's looks a little light, and several power teams have easier routes to the sweet 16.
John Carroll is huge snub. I got no problem with Haverford with all those losses. Also got no problem with Brockport getting in. Always thought Dominican was being disregarded too easily (sort of like North Park until a day ago), and I know nothing about Texas-Dallas (although I bet Colorado and Willamette/Puget Sound would beat them).
My guess is that Trinity (TX) could not host because the TU women are hosting, and there's but a single suitable pitch (you wouldn't want to host playoffs on their worn football field). I guess Messiah must have two fields because they don't have any problem hosting both men and women in the same weekend.
Do not dismiss UMASS Boston and / or Nicolls against Oneonta. I saw both league finals and Nichols is quite physical and could hold their own maybe. Umass Boston is undersized but quite skilled in the middle of the park with a mix of Portuguese and Hispanic palyers they are fun to watch
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:15:02 PM
Do not dismiss UMASS Boston and / or Nicolls against Oneonta. I saw both league finals and Nichols is quite physical and could hold their own maybe. Umass Boston is undersized but quite skilled in the middle of the park with a mix of Portuguese and Hispanic palyers they are fun to watch
Messiah actually came to Salisbury last year due to conflict with the women. I think the bye alleviates that this year.
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Agree with you here, Mr. Right. Very beatable in my opinion from the games I watched.
Also, unless they are dramatically improved and you know something we don't (which I wouldn't put past you)...this is the same Umass Boston team that lost to Tufts 8-0 earlier this year. I watched the first half of that game and came away thinking UMB looked like a high school team...
Also, Coast Guard will not be able to play 10 deep against Catholic in my mind because after seeing Catholic's back up keeper / field player on Saturday save PK after PK from Merchant Marine they do not want to get to PK's against them.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 10, 2014, 03:28:53 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Agree with you here, Mr. Right. Very beatable in my opinion from the games I watched.
Also, unless they are dramatically improved and you know something we don't (which I wouldn't put past you)...this is the same Umass Boston team that lost to Tufts 8-0 earlier this year. I watched the first half of that game and came away thinking UMB looked like a high school team...
HA..I did not say they would beat Oneonta but is more of a game than say Daniel Webster will give Wheaton. I liked what I saw in that UMASS Boston v Keene game Saturday. Also, remember UMASS Boston is a commuter school for the most part(although they are trying to change that) and mid week games usually some of the players are WORKING. Most of these kids come from very little and I enjoy rooting for that.
I don't see Emory getting through Whitworth and CNU/Montclair.
I am expecting Brandeis to show well but getting all the way to KC looks daunting. Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised to see the UAA teams drop off pretty quickly. Could see the same for the NESCAC trio. Could all be out by the first weekend.
North Park (assuming Kenyon beats H'burg) looks like a tricky game. I caught a little bit of N. Park and they looked very physical and athletic, although it was a turf field which made assessing them difficult. OWU at Calvin is a great game and I fully expect OWU to prevail there.
jeez I saw North Park play Elmhurst and I thought Elmhurst dominated them.
Very true. Having grown up in a working-class city in New England, I love rooting for teams comprised of players like that. Nice to see kids play with a chip on their shoulder and with something to prove. Adds some sabor, conoces?
Don't get me wrong- I would LOVE to see a team like UMB get into the next round, especially with all the kids they have from Cape Verde/Portugal/Brazil. I was just a little surprised to see them bounce back from an 8-0 loss to Tufts and make the tournament!
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:38:21 PM
jeez I saw North Park play Elmhurst and I thought Elmhurst dominated them.
The lighting at night on those bad turf fields makes it very hard to tell what is going on. Unwatchable and seems like a totally different sport.
Looks like yet another potential rematch for SLU-Amherst. This time Amherst will be playing on Sandy. Can't look past Purchase obviously, but it looks like they upset their way to their league championship with 10 wins and 9 losses. I don't know much about Fitchburg St, but their record indicates that Amherst should win. Amherst knocked us out in the Sweet 16 last year in 2OT in Amherst, so I'm hoping we get a chance for redemption on Sandy.
SLU has been playing Nescac's I feel like forever in the 2nd and later rounds. You might enjoy my post from Nov 1st.
9 of those games come to mind.
1998 SLU v Williams. In my mind these were the 2 best teams in the country that year. That SLU team was basically the same team that was NCAA champion in 1999 and that Williams team was nasty.
2002 SLU v Amherst. SLU dominated and won 1-0 but that was a good Amherst side with a great striker named Joe Gannon. One of the Goodings better recruits.
2004 SLU v Williams. Instant classic as Williams comes away with a 1-0 OT win. SLU was a bit better that year but Williams countered well. SLU had gone thru a real tragedy the week of the game as a SLU player was found dead after going missing after leaving a bar intoxicated. He was found to have drown.
2004 Geneseo v Williams at SLU. Williams was the better side and even had a goal called back on a very questionable offside call and I think out shot Geneseo by a 3:1 margin but let up a soft goal and lost 1-0. Geneseo advanced to the 2004 Final 4 and got hammered by a very strong UC Santa Cruz.
2005 SLU v Williams at Plattsburg. Williams win 3-0 but the game was dominated in possession and shots by SLU but Williams countered extremely well and finished their chances.
2005 Plattsburgh v Williams. Plattsburgh wins 1-0 on a frigid day near the Canadian border in a game Williams should have won. Plattsburgh moves on the Final 4 where they get trounced by Messiah.
2010 SLU v Amherst. Amherst survives a game SLU deserved to win.
2012 Williams v SLU. SLU minus their best player Sam DeMello goes up in Williamstown in the 1st minute 1-0 and holds the lead until the 82nd minute when frosh Mohammed Rashid scores a beauty to knot the match. 10 minutes later an excellent cross by Rashid finds Michael Madding's boot for 2-1 OT Williams win.
2013 Amherst v SLU. Another travesty for SLU as we all have this game fresh in our minds. Check the highlight on youtube.
I guess the point is that I completely agree based on history we will see another Western NY v Western Mass classic in the later rounds of the NCAA's
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Would you consider Loras to be better than Brandeis?
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 10, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Would you consider Loras to be better than Brandeis?
I'd say Brandeis over Loras based on style of play at least. Brandeis play real soccer.
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 10, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Would you consider Loras to be better than Brandeis?
Why did you pick Loras vs Brandeis? Very, very unlikely that those two are going to meet.
In 2010 that was a straight brawl between Amherst & SLU. Amherst won 3-2 on James Mooney hat trick. A tale of two halves and SLU did not adjust well to the pace which Mooney brought to the table.
Classic battle in the 2nd round.
I did see that post a few weeks ago, Mr. Right, great write up. I was at the game last year, and Amherst controlled most of the game but we really turned it on the last few minutes and got a superb 30 yard goal from Austin Roney. We had momentum into OT as Brouke hit the post just a few minutes in. Got real unlucky off the rebound to set up Amherst for the game winner. As you said, our history against Amherst favors the Jeffs, but I think we match up better this year especially on Sandy. We lost only one player from last year (albeit an All-American) and lost our main center forward to an ACL injury, but our forwards haven't been doing the scoring anyways.
Loras would out muscle Brandeis to every ball. I hate the way they play but I LOVE their work ethic and absolute leaving everything on the field. Loras would win 2-0
Quote from: swibbles on November 10, 2014, 03:45:14 PM
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 10, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Would you consider Loras to be better than Brandeis?
I'd say Brandeis over Loras based on style of play at least. Brandeis play real soccer.
I don't know? The rock bowl is a hard place to play (no pun intended). But the style that Brandeis play is definitely superior to that of Loras. But better style of play doesn't always translate to more wins, as we have seen in the past (aka Richard Stockton 2003)
My final four: Messiah, Oneonta, Wheaton, and MSU.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Mr.Right, your anti-Brandeis agenda is starting to show. Even as a Brandeis alum, I
certainly don't think Brandeis will get to the Final Four, but saying they will "struggle to get to the Sweet 16" is a bit brash considering the Judges have made it to that round the past two years and are arguably better this year. Also, you can't say that they "can't beat NESCAC teams" anymore because they
did beat Tufts this year. Certainly any team can beat them on their day, and I think Bowdoin could give them a real test and maybe even beat them, but saying that they won't get out of the first two rounds is a bit bold.
Also, do not forget Williamstown native Sean Houston in net. He is been a great find for you guys and a tremendous athlete.
I like Bold and am willing to wager Brandeis will not get out of the 2nd round if you give me odds
Houston has really stepped up. Costello went down early in the year with a concussion, but Houston filled in seamlessly. The defense leaked a few goals early in the year, but Houston has been outstanding.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 10, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:18:38 PM
Also people predicting Brandeis to go to the Final 4 need their head examined. They are good but NOT that good and can be beaten on the day by most teams in this field. They will struggle to get to the Sweet 16
Would you consider Loras to be better than Brandeis?
Why did you pick Loras vs Brandeis? Very, very unlikely that those two are going to meet.
Two of the top teams in the country with very different styles of play. Loras made the final four the last couple of years, so putting Brandeis in that conversation is not out of the question.
The style of play is only superior if it can be executed. Sometimes with a step up in quality a team cannot effectuate its style. That said, no one is going to out-tough Brandeis this year. The question when they get to the more talented teams is whether they will be dynamic enough beyond playing a good possession game.
Probably not the right board for this comment, but how does the NCAA leave the 15th team in the Country out of the tournament?
I always have felt the organization is a microcosm of the world at large...when push-comes-to-shove the insiders take care of their own. JCU choked in the conference championship, and winning that would have avoided this hearbreak, but to be No. 15 and lose out to OWU and other teams with lesser records...absolutely astounding. I view this more as a comment on the sad state of NCAA selection at all levels than on the JCU soccer team.
From the team's perspective, if they had taken care of business they would be in the tourney. From the NCAA perspective, its another example of the old boys network protecting their own.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
I like Bold and am willing to wager Brandeis will not get out of the 2nd round if you give me odds
Look, I'm no Brandeis fan, but I've seen them play a couple of times and they've been impressive. They keep the ball nicely and clearly believe in what they do and find a way to win. Their record speaks for itself - good SOS and only 2 losses (both of which came against top opposition)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
I like Bold and am willing to wager Brandeis will not get out of the 2nd round if you give me odds
Cocky call. We shall see if you can live up to your name, "Mr. Right".
I have seen Brandeis 7 times this season and I am willing to call this and put REAL money down with odds if one of you Brandeis supporters feels differently
I see Brandeis and Kenyon as in very similar positions. A lot of people are not going to pick them for the final four, and the odds for every team other than Messiah start out long, and while both are certainly beatable, it is going to take a tremendous effort to knock them out (aside from a case of not advancing on PKs or something very flukey). These are two very senior-laden teams determined to go as far as they possibly can go.
Mr.Right, take a breath. Don't lose it here. We need you for the tourney run ;)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
I have seen Brandeis 7 times this season and I am willing to call this and put REAL money down with odds if one of you Brandeis supporters feels differently
I'm sorry; I don't put down real money on anything, especially something found on a college soccer fan board that I use for fun, not for business.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
I have seen Brandeis 7 times this season and I am willing to call this and put REAL money down with odds if one of you Brandeis supporters feels differently
Betting = Legal?
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 10, 2014, 03:54:05 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
I like Bold and am willing to wager Brandeis will not get out of the 2nd round if you give me odds
Cocky call. We shall see if you can live up to your name, "Mr. Right".
I actually agree with "Mr. Right", there first game against Husson (13-7) is going to be very very tough. Husson has a high quality strength of schedule, some big time losses, 4-0 to Bowdoin, and come from the stellar NAC conference.
If they somehow won the first game, they would have to play the stellar 9 win Bowdoin bulldogs or Brockport Dodgers. The dodgers have a great record in 10-3-6 and finished 3rd in the SUNYAC.
Brandeis would get knocked off the ball by a team like Loras. Brandeis has a nice midfield and a couple players that can score critical goals but there GK is suspect and I do not think their D can hold up against better teams
your sarcasm reeks pelinho...ok NCAC I need to take my meds and get off this Brandeis push but mark my words. Also, I like Brockport over Bowdoin so go figure
Quote from: swibbles on November 10, 2014, 04:02:01 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
I have seen Brandeis 7 times this season and I am willing to call this and put REAL money down with odds if one of you Brandeis supporters feels differently
Betting = Legal?
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/gambling-college-sports
"The NCAA opposes all forms of gambling — legal and illegal"
Seems to me like Brandeis is a very good team, but that there are a lot of very good teams out there. I think many of these NCAA games will come down to which team shows up. I can't say with certainty that they will make the sweet sixteen, but I also can't say they won't.
The fact of the matter is that there is so much parity in D3 this year that anyone can beat anyone. I know there is always the "on any given Sunday...", but this year more than any other in recent memory I think that holds true. The traditional powerhouses seem to be down (save for maybe Messiah), as do the traditional powerhouse conferences. I think there will be some wild upsets and several cinderellas, and I'm excited to see it all happen. First round will be crazy!
I just negative karma you Pelinho, which I rarely do. Get a grip and chill out
Quote from: pelinho5 on November 10, 2014, 04:03:48 PM
Quote from: swibbles on November 10, 2014, 04:02:01 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
I have seen Brandeis 7 times this season and I am willing to call this and put REAL money down with odds if one of you Brandeis supporters feels differently
Betting = Legal?
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/gambling-college-sports
"The NCAA opposes all forms of gambling — legal and illegal"
Well that settles it, "Mr. Right". As much as I'd love to take your money, the moral victory is all I'm willing to wager.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 10, 2014, 04:04:55 PM
Seems to me like Brandeis is a very good team, but that there are a lot of very good teams out there. I think many of these NCAA games will come down to which team shows up. I can't say with certainty that they will make the sweet sixteen, but I also can't say they won't.
The fact of the matter is that there is so much parity in D3 this year that anyone can beat anyone. I know there is always the "on any given Sunday...", but this year more than any other in recent memory I think that holds true. The traditional powerhouses seem to be down (save for maybe Messiah), as do the traditional powerhouse conferences. I think there will be some wild upsets and several cinderellas, and I'm excited to see it all happen. First round will be crazy!
This I totally AGREE with
I wouldn't be surprised if brockport can make it past the second round. If they put it all together they can be dangerous
Mr.Right, you should be rooting for Brandeis. It's nice to see some new teams break through.
And let me repeat....we need you through the tournament. Wait a few weeks to get your next red card, please!
There is zero chance Husson beats Brandeis. Okay, maybe a 5% chance.
Should be upwards of a 5-0 rout. MSU outshot Husson 47-6. Bowdoin outshot them 34-2
Quote from: just4kix on November 10, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 03:15:02 PM
Do not dismiss UMASS Boston and / or Nicolls against Oneonta. I saw both league finals and Nichols is quite physical and could hold their own maybe. Umass Boston is undersized but quite skilled in the middle of the park with a mix of Portuguese and Hispanic palyers they are fun to watch
Messiah actually came to Salisbury last year due to conflict with the women. I think the bye alleviates that this year.
When one team has a 1st round bye, they only play the second day, and thus all the problems that come with trying to play four back to back to back to back games on the first day do not exist and on the second day there's only two games which is fine.
As soon as the Messiah women were shown to be hosting a 1st/2nd round pod in the 1:00 pm live women's announcement, it was clear that the Messiah men had been given first round bye. Otherwise, it was the men's turn, being an even-numbered year, to host a pod and the women would have had to go on the road.
Agreed I am done. Meds have kicked in and now I am Mr. Happy
Agree that UT-Dallas is a great mystery. However, given that the Trinity women are hosting the first weekend, I'm not surprised that the Trinity men are not hosting the same weekend, regardless of where they are sent.
Messiah over Calvin/Kenyon
F&M over Wheaton/Trinity
Messiah over F&M: one former Falcon player over another, at the coaching level.
Awhile back, responding to a question posed by someone else, I offered an opinion on the level of talent this year's Falcons have compared with some other NCAA championship teams the Falcons have had. I was reluctant to say (at that point in the season) that this year's squad is the best all-time, and I'm still reluctant to say that--let them finish out the season first. However, they might have the single best graduating class. At least five of the seniors are among the best at their positions in Falcon history: Payne (target), Ramirez (attacking and/or holding MF), Jack Thompson (left wing), West (GK), and Robbins (central defender). The fastest current player, right winger Kovach, is perhaps a step lower on the all-time list, but it wouldn't be a very big step.
IMO the most highly skilled player in this group is Ramirez, our version of David Beckham. He could be very important in the tournament, if the Falcons get a bunch of corner kicks and free kicks. He's more physical than most of his teammates as well, so putting pressure on him doesn't usually pay off. Payne is a great scorer with his feet or his head, an ideal target, but he can also create his own shots from the midfield or the wing. The most dangerous athlete of this group is Thompson, who can beat almost anyone with the ball and then cross it effectively: he's the all-time assist leader at Messiah. However IMO the most dangerous player on the whole team could be a freshman, Colby Thomas. His nose for the ball and the goal is unmatched, and the only predictable thing about him is that he will be moving forward and he will probably put the ball on frame, if it's not blocked first by one of the defenders he's in the middle of (he usually draws a crowd). I think we'll be hearing his name a great deal in coming years, and perhaps in the tournament as well. He's been playing a lot lately, b/c Brandt is apparently injured. I don't know the nature of the injury, how serious it is, or when it happened, but I don't think it was in a game. Does anyone have information about this?
So do you Messiah people think they could get a result against Navy. I was not to impressed by Navy in that TV game last Friday night against Army. They worked very hard and played well in OT against an equally hard working Army. Ironically they have Nate Bascom on the team. His brother beat Williams in a 2012 Final 4 match up on Ohio Northern. I like Navy's keeper and Bascon and the kid that scored.
I doubt Messiah could get a result against Navy. I went to USNA for 2 years before transferring to SLU, and Navy at home are tough to beat. They have a good team this year, and can turn it up when the time comes. Plus Brandt knows Messiah's every in and out and would formulate an effective game plan.
Yes I see Navy has a big home field advantage BUT lets say Messiah hosts
I feel pretty comfortable with predicting Messiah and Wheaton (Ill.) to make the final four. I'm also going to pick Kenyon just because they seem like one of those high seeded teams that no one picks to win and they seem to be hitting their stride at the right time. As for the other region, I really can't decide between Oneonta, F&M, or Brandeis.
I mean, it would be a competitive game no doubt. Messiah can definitely beat some some D-I teams. But Navy proved they're a good team when they beat Maryland. They play well against ranked opponents, and Greenspan at CB could handle Payne I think.
I haven't seen this year's Navy team (which I hear is pretty good) play, so I'm not entitled to an opinion on that specific question.
In general, however, I think this year's Falcon team would get a good result against most D1 teams and nearly all D2 teams. I doubt they would be a Top 20 team in D1, but they might crack the top 30 or 40. We'll never have a basis to establish that one way or the other, since D1 and D2 teams quite understandably won't schedule us for regular games, but the results we get in spring scrimmages are pretty impressive.
In several recent seasons we've had one or two D1 transfers on the team, but none this year (to the best of my knowledge). However a number of current Falcons declined scholarship offers from D1 teams. That's normal, and of course Messiah is hardly unique among D3 teams on that score. The current freshman class (which is potentially as good as the current seniors) includes some very serious players, including Thomas--one of the top all-time career scorers in PA state history.
When Navy played Maryland, Maryland still had a ton of injuries and they are a bit down this year. You are probably right but I was just wondering.
I think F&M could have a tough game in the round of 32. That could be an upset special right there
Falconer I am well aware they would get a result against maybe anyone outside of ACC teams and BIg 10 ten etc. I just wanted to know the Navy v Messiah result.
Out of all the teams in D3, which one would give Messiah the best game? And, do you see this team making the finals (if they aren't from Messiah's bracket)?
Who could beat Messiah 2014? Messiah 2013...
haha ;D well done
Kenyon, Wheaton, Oneonta St, Tufts would be the 4 that I think could knock off Messiah. Oneonta St has played them twice in the last 3 years. (Messiah 2, Oneonta St. 1 1OT in 2013) (Messiah 0, Oneonta St 0 in 2012). We know of the Kenyon result last year...
Of course OWU, Calvin, CNU (before they kind of fell off mid-season).
Well, someone might well beat Messiah 2014 this fall--we'll find out. You never know what will happen on the field, especially in this sport. The Falcons could (say) outshoot someone, 25-3, but lose 1-0 or in PKs. I doubt there is a better team out there this year, but there are plenty of really good ones and that's why they play them, isn't it? I don't normally like to make predictions, but I decided to throw caution to the wind and go with my gut this year. I haven't seen any other team this fall that's nearly as good as Messiah, and since we have so many 3-year starters among the seniors we aren't likely to choke. Still, you have to put the ball into the goal, and there's 11 other guys trying to prevent you from doing that, so nothing--nothing--is a foregone conclusion.
Their bracket seems less competitive than the other three brackets, but there are still some tough teams in there. Dickinson nearly scored 3 goals against us earlier in the season (they were credited with 2 and our keeper blocked a PK), which would have been the most goals scored against us in a very long time. I'm glad they made the tournament--they deserved to.
In the past couple of years, I would have said that Loras was the team with the best chance to beat the Falcons. They probably aren't quite as strong this fall, esp with that major injury. Messiah has never beaten Trinity, but we've played them just once (Trinity beat us 1-0 in the national semi several years ago, when one of our defenders playing a new position let a ball go right through his legs and onto the feet of their striker). Wheaton apparently has some dynamite on the offensive side, and I don't think this year's Falcons are as quite strong in the back as some of our previous champions, so who knows?
I don't want to turn this into a "who can beat Messiah?" thread, so let me ask a question of another sort: who knows anything about St Scholastica? They score goals in buckets against weak opponents, but they were good enough to get a place in the dance. How good are they, really? Are they even half as good as their statistics suggest? Who's seen them play a decent opponent?
CSS played two tournament teams this fall and lost to both of them. They lost 3-1 @Trinity and 3-0 @GAC. They have not played a tournament worthy team in two months and I believe that Chicago's possession style of play will slow down their attack and ultimately end CSS's season in the first round.
Quote from: Falconer on November 10, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
I don't want to turn this into a "who can beat Messiah?" thread, so let me ask a question of another sort: who knows anything about St Scholastica? They score goals in buckets against weak opponents, but they were good enough to get a place in the dance. How good are they, really? Are they even half as good as their statistics suggest? Who's seen them play a decent opponent?
Since they are in a quad with 3 other capable teams, it will be very interesting to see how they fare. I do know they lost to GAC earlier in the year 3-0, which is a highly regarded squad that is battle-tested within the MIAC, IIAC, and WIAC. That game wasn't very pretty for a scoreline, however the game before that they beat Carleton 2-0 which also is a capable squad in the MIAC. With the IIAC conference tourney champs Wartburg, as well as U of Chicago (who could have and possibly should've beaten Loras earlier this year), this end of the bracket I think is highly underrated considering the winner of this quad takes on presumably Wheaton.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 04:57:59 PM
Who could beat Messiah 2014? Messiah 2013...
The best national final would be Messiah's 1st 11 against their 2nd 11.
Teams that could beat them, maybe? I agree mostly with lastguy.....Wheaton, Kenyon, Oneonta, maybe Trinity....but those teams are all teams that could be beaten long before they get to Messiah.
And I'll have to be honest, and I heard this on the Messiah broadcast too. The idea that Messiah and F&M are even vaguely entitled to play for the national title against each other because of the coaching connection to Messiah I find nauseating. Enough things are set up to go the Messiah way already (and mostly deservedly so). We don't need Messiah AND Messiah Juniors making up every final four.
What, is everybody eating or dealing with kids? Come on, we've got critical D3 games to talk about.
Some first round beauties....
Rochester vs Salisbury
Brockport vs Bowdoin
Chicago vs St Scholastica
GAC vs Dominican
Newark vs Babson (and why did some say Babson is hosting....this is at Cortland, right?)
Dickinson vs Tufts
And the best 4 team pod of all....Lynchburg vs CNU and Stevens vs Montclair
Likely 2nd round blockbusters....
Rochester/Salisbury vs F&M
Brockport/Bowdoin vs Brandeis
Amherst vs SLU
UWW vs Wheaton (Ill)
Newark/Babson vs Cortland
Dickinson/Tufts vs Wheaton (MA)
OWU vs Calvin
Kenyon vs North Park
Emory vs Whitworth
Montclair vs CNU
On the who can beat Messiah question, I would add Wartburg IF they were playing in a round of 32 or sweet 16 game, but we may get a Wartburg vs Wheaton (Ill) sweet 16 game which would be an absolute war and I would give Wartburg a good chance even though I think Wheaton has the 2nd most talent of any team in the country.
I have a tough time seeing anyone knocking off Messiah in the tournament. Yes they are heavy favorites as they should be but that's not the reason for my pick. No one has the experience that they do. The only thing hurting the Falcons right now is that they haven't lost in over a year (Lycoming in 2013). And speaking of Lycoming, disappointed in the committee for snubbing the Warriors. 15-3-3 with 2 of their 3 losses coming at Messiah gives them essentially only one loss this year and good wins including, at the time, #13 Rochester as well as a top 10 defense in the country. Yet the committee picks Dickinson (11-5-2) whom is 0-4-1 heading into the tournament in their last 5 games. So much for a team getting hot at the right time. But back to the main topic. My first glance predictions are an Amherst, Wheaton (Ill), Messiah, Kenyon final four. Granted I will have a more thought out decision at some point. Good luck to all the teams that have made the tournament this year!
First, anything can happen, but like you said IF Wartburg goes with their depth and plays to their potential a sweet 16 is very possible.
Then, against Wheaton, the same would hold true. Watching them play (I have not watched their early season games though) it seems they have a deep and talented bench. Need to take advantage of that rather than reliy on the starting 11 the whole game. Based upon statistics/playing time, some of the teams in that region do not appear that deep.
Quote from: Falconer on November 10, 2014, 04:22:07 PM
Agree that UT-Dallas is a great mystery. However, given that the Trinity women are hosting the first weekend, I'm not surprised that the Trinity men are not hosting the same weekend, regardless of where they are sent.
Messiah over Calvin/Kenyon
F&M over Wheaton/Trinity
Messiah over F&M: one former Falcon player over another, at the coaching level.
Awhile back, responding to a question posed by someone else, I offered an opinion on the level of talent this year's Falcons have compared with some other NCAA championship teams the Falcons have had. I was reluctant to say (at that point in the season) that this year's squad is the best all-time, and I'm still reluctant to say that--let them finish out the season first. However, they might have the single best graduating class. At least five of the seniors are among the best at their positions in Falcon history: Payne (target), Ramirez (attacking and/or holding MF), Jack Thompson (left wing), West (GK), and Robbins (central defender). The fastest current player, right winger Kovach, is perhaps a step lower on the all-time list, but it wouldn't be a very big step.
IMO the most highly skilled player in this group is Ramirez, our version of David Beckham. He could be very important in the tournament, if the Falcons get a bunch of corner kicks and free kicks. He's more physical than most of his teammates as well, so putting pressure on him doesn't usually pay off. Payne is a great scorer with his feet or his head, an ideal target, but he can also create his own shots from the midfield or the wing. The most dangerous athlete of this group is Thompson, who can beat almost anyone with the ball and then cross it effectively: he's the all-time assist leader at Messiah. However IMO the most dangerous player on the whole team could be a freshman, Colby Thomas. His nose for the ball and the goal is unmatched, and the only predictable thing about him is that he will be moving forward and he will probably put the ball on frame, if it's not blocked first by one of the defenders he's in the middle of (he usually draws a crowd). I think we'll be hearing his name a great deal in coming years, and perhaps in the tournament as well. He's been playing a lot lately, b/c Brandt is apparently injured. I don't know the nature of the injury, how serious it is, or when it happened, but I don't think it was in a game. Does anyone have information about this?
Agree with almost everything said above until the Colby Thomas part. The worst thing possible that could have happened to the Falcons is the loss of Danny Brandt. Messiah is not nearly as dangerous without him in the middle of the field and Colby Thomas is no Payne or Brandt. The kid is still stuck at the high school level and too small for that position. With that being said Messiah is still the favorite to win it as always.
I wonder if Messiah's comparatively soft quadrant was subtly or otherwise impacted by avoidance of being placed in their bracket. A couple of teams, and F&M is one of them, might have fared better by risking an Elite 8 game with Messiah, rather than having to run a gauntlet of 3 really strong teams. At any rate, I don't see a single team in that quad that won't get overwhelmed by Messiah. Wheaton, Tufts, and Muhlenberg are very good but they don't strike me as having the make-up to take on the Falcons.
Easiest roads to the sweet 16, in order of ease....
Messiah
Oneonta
Trinity
Wheaton (Ill)
Wartburg
Loras
Muhlenberg
Kenyon
Most difficult (no particular order but asterisks for really tough given team reputations)
Rochester/Salisbury***
Brockport/Bowdoin
Amherst/SLU***
UWW
Chicago
GAC/Dominican
Montclair/CNU***
OWU/Calvin***
Tufts/Dickinson***
Newark/Babson
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 07:27:01 PM
What, is everybody eating or dealing with kids? Come on, we've got critical D3 games to talk about.
Some first round beauties....
Newark vs Babson (and why did some say Babson is hosting....this is at Cortland, right?)
Seems to have been moved to Babson. Apparently Cortland has some issue preventing them from hosting.
The omission of John Carroll is just outrageous to me the more I think about it. No other school that was ranked #2 even once in the 3 weeks is out of the tournament and they were #2 ALL THREE WEEKS. They could not have dropped any lower than #3. That puts them ahead of TWO UAA schools as well. They have Ohio Northern in their conference, a perennial powerhouse, and some other good teams with Capital, Heidelberg, etc. They were undefeated in their conference and won the regular season by at least a full 2 games and then in the 10th or 11th conference game they finally lost in a conference final (not quarterfinal, or semi, but a final). They must be crushed after having one of the best seasons in their history. Meanwhile we have a bunch of teams with 7, 8, 9 blemishes in the field.
We have a 10 loss team in there as well.
Anyone else a little tired of the Messiah and Trinity cupcake games leading to the Sweet 16 every year?
Messiah is beatable, or should I say drawable with the opportunity to advance in PKs. Haven't seen them play, but in D3 soccer anything is possible. With a good GK and an organized defense if you park the bus you can stay in any game. The one blemish on Messiah's record this season was against a below average team.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 10, 2014, 08:35:22 PM
Anyone else a little tired of the Messiah and Trinity cupcake games leading to the Sweet 16 every year?
Messiah is beatable, or should I say drawable with the opportunity to advance in PKs. Haven't seen them play, but in D3 soccer anything is possible. With a good GK and an organized defense if you park the bus you can stay in any game. The one blemish on Messiah's record this season was against a below average team.
I watched that game and Stevenson had 3 things going for them that others might find..1. Luck 2. Weather issues(Huge cross winds) 3. Mid week road game with Messiah seemingly not"up" for the game. You will not catch them midweek but the other 3 parts are possible
Just for clarification purposes on my comment... Both programs are fantastic, both are usually worthy of a first round bye, but let's get these teams some tricky early games.
Cannot believe Babson is hosting. I am kind of glad as their video is good. NEWMAC is going to go 1-2-0 1st round and Wheaton will go out in 2nd round against either Dickinson or Tufts
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 10, 2014, 08:48:10 PM
Just for clarification purposes on my comment... Both programs are fantastic, both are usually worthy of a first round bye, but let's get these teams some tricky early games.
They deserve a easy ticket into Sweet 16 if they earned it in the regular season. Now the sweet 16 needs to be more competitive I will give you that
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 10, 2014, 08:48:10 PM
Just for clarification purposes on my comment... Both programs are fantastic, both are usually worthy of a first round bye, but let's get these teams some tricky early games.
I agree...Yes, they've earned their paths so to speak, but it's a bit circular too. Both of those teams, and Oneonta and Wheaton, literally could leave their starting units at home and get to the sweet 16. I would have loved to see Messiah have to deal with a Rochester or Salisbury or Newark in at least the 2nd round.
The WORST case scenario for Messiah is Cortland, Newark or Babson in the sweet 16 and then an Elite 8 game with Wheaton, Tufts, or Muhlenberg. Might as well fly them to KC right now. Compare that to F&M who has to get through Rochester/Salisbury and Oneonta just to get to the Elite 8, and then Brandeis, SLU or Amherst waiting on the other side before they even get to the Final Four. Or Kenyon that would have to get through North Park, OWU or Calvin, and then Montclair, Christopher Newport, Emory, or Whitworth.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 10, 2014, 08:35:22 PM
Messiah is beatable, or should I say drawable with the opportunity to advance in PKs. Haven't seen them play, but in D3 soccer anything is possible. With a good GK and an organized defense if you park the bus you can stay in any game. The one blemish on Messiah's record this season was against a below average team.
If you had the opportunity to see Messiah play then you might have seen the "park the bus" strategy used against them time and time again. In years past, I thought Messiah had very tough roads to the Final Four. This year is one of those rare exceptions where I, and many others, believe their quadrant to be the weakest. I don't enjoy games where opponents have 10 players behind the ball for most of the game. That is why I have the utmost respect for teams like York, Loras and others who have always given Messiah a great game (this year's York contest notwithstanding). But I am not so naïve to think one or more teams in this tournament might not want to "park the bus" and take their chances in PKs when playing Messiah. But you should take the opportunity to see them once before offering an opinion.
Does this Messiah team do things differently than Messiah teams from years past or is it the same system? I have watched multiple Messiah games in previous seasons dating back to 2004 but haven't watched them play this year...
since your here could you answer my question that everyone else ignored could Messiah beat Navy this year at home?
I agree if I understand wchandy correctly. The "park the bus" and play for PKs strategy will work against Messiah about once every 90-100 games. Not to mention that notwithstanding the Lycoming aberration, Messiah almost always is going to have the far superior PK takers. Certainly even worthy opponents need to have some kind of defensive strategy but still play and put some pressure on their defense so that the ball isn't in your own final third 80-85% of the game. The biggest problem with Messiah is that it is like trying to squeeze a balloon. You have to pick your poison, and there just is too much poison to cover. All 10 of their players are a risk to score.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 09:12:10 PM
since your here could you answer my question that everyone else ignored could Messiah beat Navy this year at home?
Yes, at least sometimes. I bet they would be a top 3 team in the Patriot League. And one of reasons is that in addition to their trademark very high skill and soccer IQ levels they are a BIG and FAST team. They physically can match up with D1 teams and I would guess are bigger than 60% of D1 teams. Anyone who hasn't seen them play in person needs to do that to appreciate just how good they are. In person vs video is essential (and that's true for a lot of these teams).
Mr.Right, let's compile a list of teams we need scouting reports on. I'll start....
Cortland
Brockport
Oneonta***
Salisbury
Wartburg***
GAC
Dominican
Trinity (TX)***
Newark
Muhlenberg***
North Park***
Whitworth***
Montclair***
No team should have an easy path. The whole point of the competition is to bring the best of the best together in one tournament to duke it out and crown a champion.
There are three teams who earn a first round byes. Beyond that nothing should be guaranteed. Certainly not a pass to the sweet 16. That's absurd.
A big part of what makes soccer such a great sport is that on any given day, no matter how outmatched, your team can earn a result that you likely wouldn't otherwise.
The park the bus strategy may not work often, but it's no less effective than playing Messiah straight up. There aren't many teams that can play a full 90 plus OT with messiah regardless of tactics.
I saw Oneonta play at Hamilton 2 weeks ago and was not impressed but I assume it was a midweek game and they might have been sleeping thru it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and if it was not for their keeper who made 3 of the best saves I have seen all season they would have lost to Hamilton.
I saw NOrth Park play Elmhurst last Thursday and really did not think I was watching a NCAA team. Elmhurst was controlling play for most of the game.
Muhlenberg I was impressed with.
The others I would need some help
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 10, 2014, 09:29:06 PM
No team should have an easy path. The whole point of the competition is to bring the best of the best together in one tournament to duke it out and crown a champion.
There are three teams who earn a first round byes. Beyond that nothing should be guaranteed. Certainly not a pass to the sweet 16. That's absurd.
A big part of what makes soccer such a great sport is that on any given day, no matter how outmatched, your team can earn a result that you likely wouldn't otherwise.
The park the bus strategy may not work often, but it's no less effective than playing Messiah straight up. There aren't many teams that can play a full 90 plus OT with messiah regardless of tactics.
Unless you eliminate the AQ for undeserving conferences this will always happen
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 09:31:33 PM
I saw Oneonta play at Hamilton 2 weeks ago and was not impressed but I assume it was a midweek game and they might have been sleeping thru it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and if it was not for their keeper who made 3 of the best saves I have seen all season they would have lost to Hamilton.
I saw NOrth Park play Elmhurst last Thursday and really did not think I was watching a NCAA team. Elmhurst was controlling play for most of the game.
Muhlenberg I was impressed with.
The others I would need some help
But don't you think it's very hard to judge via video? I am amazed at the difference in the speed of the game and skill levels when I see a game live vs video that makes it seem like just a decent high school game.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 09:12:10 PM
since your here could you answer my question that everyone else ignored could Messiah beat Navy this year at home?
Could? Certainly! There isn't a D1 opponent Messiah has faced that they thought they couldn't push for 90 minutes. Oddly enough, Messiah and Navy have one opponent in common this year. Messiah has become an attractive spring game opponent for other Patriot League teams. I was talking with a member of the Bucknell coaching staff this spring (at the game) and he told me as much. The Bucknell men's soccer team had just returned from what he thought was a very positive trip to Europe. They were having a promising spring and he was quite hopeful of a successful upcoming season. But the comment from the BUsoccer twitter account after the game sums it up . . .
"Lost to defending Div III National Champion Messiah 1 3. A lot to learn from tonight's game!"
Bucknell Men's Soccer @BUsoccer
https://twitter.com/BUsoccer/status/455158883255091200
In case anyone is interested the NIT has just announced their 16 team field with their final four to be held at Gaelic Park in the Bronx....
Top 4 seeds
Luther
John Carroll
Rutgers-Camden
Haverford
The other 12 teams
St Olaf
Elmhurst
Roanoke
CMU
Middlebury
Centre
Wesleyan
Kalamazoo
UW-O
Colorado Coll
Willamette
Wabash
First 4 out -- Williams, Santa Cruz, Puget Sound, Lycoming
Geez, I forgot WPI....someone's got to get bumped out.
On good video I do not think it is much a difference. Messiah's video I can get a general idea but the video dude tends to not zoom in but rather show us the whole build up and you can see formations and styles better but not the actual players on the far side or even some of the action. Babson's video or any NSN video feed I can get a good idea. Brandeis video is awful but I love being behind the benches as I can get a good laugh out of Coven and a screaming Margolis
Some of your NIT match ups would look much more intriguing to me. I wonder if it would mimic the NIT and Nescac and UAA teams would not show up to play the minnows
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2014, 09:42:01 PM
On good video I do not think it is much a difference. Messiah's video I can get a general idea but the video dude tends to not zoom in but rather show us the whole build up and you can see formations and styles better but not the actual players on the far side or even some of the action. Babson's video or any NSN video feed I can get a good idea. Brandeis video is awful but I love being behind the benches as I can get a good laugh out of Coven and a screaming Margolis
Well, we disagree on this one. Every time I see a game live I am still surprised by how much different it is and how much better I think the teams and play are. For me, it like how I felt the first time I saw a college hockey game live instead of on television.
And eliminating the AQ isn't going to happen unless the NCAA goes into major budget cutting mode and cuts the field by more than half.
In the existing format a first round bye is quite a prize, eliminating nearly half the number of teams before you ever have to play a game. Seems like enough of an advantage to me.
I agree with you on live vs video Mr Right. The speed of play and the overall movement is lost in most instances when watching on video.
Yea I agree Live is preferable but with 35* and wind projected for the whole East Coast I am more than happy watching on video. That being said I hope we do not have technical difficulties due to weather
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 10, 2014, 09:49:14 PM
And eliminating the AQ isn't going to happen unless the NCAA goes into major budget cutting mode and cuts the field by more than half.
In the existing format a first round bye is quite a prize, eliminating nearly half the number of teams before you ever have to play a game. Seems like enough of an advantage to me.
I agree with you on live vs video Mr Right. The speed of play and the overall movement is lost in most instances when watching on video.
Well they are going to keep all the AQ's in the next 2-3 years and eliminate all but 3 or 4 Pool C's due to budget. Making for a really un level playing field and massive emphasis on winning conference tournaments. This is how it was before 2004
Conferences should get rid of their conference tournaments if that is the case and reward the regular season champion with the right to play in the NCAA tournament....
Or have all conferences play tournaments making them de facto NCAA tournament games.
Most schools in a conference would never agree to that. Can you imagine the schools in Messiah's conference agreeing to allow regular season champion get in.
I agree with Mr Right as well. I think the only two sport I actually prefer to see live vs TV are soccer and hockey. I may get a ton of different views on this one but, for the pure purpose of watching a match and taking out the "excitement of being there" factor soccer and hockey are it. My first professional hockey game left me in awe, the speed and power was simply amazing. Soccer was much of the same. Baseball is a snooze fest live, football and basketball are so much less exciting I have actually turned down pro tickets quite a few time already this season because of that very reason. Now back to tourney talk...
KICKIN, you're actually agreeing with NCAC.
Anyway, how about a detailed scouting report on Wartburg? What are their strengths? Do you see them having a good chance against a Wheaton?
There are a couple of Wartburg faithful on here somewhere I think. I was hoping to here from some of them too!
My bad as well NCAC. I agree live is much better.
I watched the 2nd half of the iiac final and OT and thought wartburg was the more dangerous side in that match. The play was pretty even, but wartburg had more clear cut scoring changes. I can think of a few shots off the post as well as a couple point blank shots turned away by the Loras gk.
Wartburg has a big man up top who distributes as well as scores. They have surrounded him with small fast attackers who run off him any chance they get. For this reason Wartburg is quite effective at sitting in and counter attacking when they need to. They did this vs Loras when they were up one and had a point blank shot blocked that should have put them up 3-1. A red-head in the middle plays the whole game and is a true enforcer. They also have a big man in the back who was effective at turning away the majority of Loras's long boots.
Agree with the speed comment, one starting forward and mid as well as a few mid/forwards that come off the bench for Wartburg.
Keep the guys fresh and let them go hard at 15 to 20 minute spurts.
Wartburg is probably my darkhorse final four pick. They are just the kind of team that could give Wheaton fits, and I think on the day they can beat the two on the other side of the bracket (and of course they'll only have to play one of them).
Let's see if the Wartburg that beat Loras shows up, or the Wartburg that tied dubuque and carleton shows up to play...
Consistency is the key.
Wartburg is very dangerous in the midfield and up top. This may be one of the fastest teams in DIII, their speed from the mids is crazy. Nadeau up top in a tall strong target that distributes as well as anyone I have seen this year. He may look a bit lanky, but he is great at getting his body in perfect position to make a player miss and he keeps the ball on a string once he has it. His passes seem to find the mark on just about every occasion and one of the most important things you can do is mark him like a shadow on set pieces, he is VERY good in the air. Martins is quick as they come and Azari seems to enjoy making people miss. Their central defender played very well and has speed to spare, his height makes it seem as if he wouldn't have that kind of pace, but he can fly. My tactic would be to play Nadeau tight from whistle to whistle, don't give him an inch because he will find a way to make you pay. Keep goal side of Martin and be disciplined, don't stab or poke or he will be by you in a snap, try to hold him up until a 2nd defender and come to help. Same with Azari, technically sound and need to be harassed. Anderson the red head has a motor and will come at you non stop, need to keep a physical body on him and wear him down, strategic fouls and a bit of gamesmanship can get him out of his game. Just how I would play them after watching these guys play 5 times this season.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 10, 2014, 08:35:22 PM
Anyone else a little tired of the Messiah and Trinity cupcake games leading to the Sweet 16 every year?
Messiah is beatable, or should I say drawable with the opportunity to advance in PKs. Haven't seen them play, but in D3 soccer anything is possible. With a good GK and an organized defense if you park the bus you can stay in any game. The one blemish on Messiah's record this season was against a below average team.
I'm trying to figure where this comes from. Trinity is a frequent victim of its location and as long as the NCAA discourages flights at all costs they are going to either be lumped with ASC/SCAC (almost never the case in soccer, but happens in other sports) schools or get flown somewhere even when they are the better seed. In the 2003 championship year, when they were the top-ranked team in the country, they had two games in Atlanta, the third round game at home, and the semis and finals in New Jersey because back then the final four was awarded to one of the remaining teams. Sometimes geography works in their favor, sometimes not.
THIS year ... the NCAA GAVE a pool C bid to an IMO questionable UT-Dallas, AND gave them the hosting duties, so that's where Trinity ends up going. It is worth pointing out that the same UT-Dallas team gave them their only loss of the season. And when there are only three teams that can bus, someone who doesn't fit anywhere else is going to get flown in. Pomona was about the only possibility without adding another flight (I could be wrong, but P-P HAD to be flown somewhere).
Your next comment talks about them being deserving of a first-round bye, but they didn't get one, and that's fine ... tho if they had, they would have been able to host the second round game they earned instead of having to play on UT-Dallas' pitch.
Per John Carroll - got to see them three times this year. 15-4-1 last year, 17-4 this year. I really feel for those seniors who were more than deserving of at least ONE appearance over the past two years. But as I posted about the OAC previously, on any given day any team was capable of beating their opponent. Mediocrity or parity? Most teams challenged themselves out of conference, scheduling "historically" strong teams. Several played OWU, Kenyon, Oberlin and DePauw (the last two not having the year they had last year) from the NCAC, others had Case and CMU from the UAA, Transylvania and Thomas More. Most games were very competitive, with OAC teams winning more than they may have in previous years.
Per NCAA bids: OAC is historically a one-team conference, much like the mid majors in college basketball. If the OAC continues to field strong teams and play strong out-of-conference schedules perhaps they will get a second bid someday. But I agree NCAC New England - this snub becomes more incomprehensible each time I look at the brackets.
It's just terrible. It's one thing if you're a team that feels it should have been ranked but wasn't (like a Wabash or a Kzoo) or a team that was ranked very high but mysteriously dropped (like Luther), but to be ranked #2 in your region during the supposed entire period of relevance and at most drop to #3 "secretly" and not get in is just too much to take. And as I think I said before, I'm not even a JCU fan. Those kids, families, fans, and coaches have got to be apoplectic and devastated. And the "only one bid" for the OAC argument that you alluded to doesn't hold in this instance, because that already had to be factored in when placing them at #2 regionally three straight weeks (in contrast to a Thomas More or Transy that were faves in their conferences and got slotted in at the bottom of the regional rankings. If they had been 6-2-1, 7-2, or even 8-1-1 in conference and then lost the conference final I could see them being left out, but not after being 9-0 and winning their conference semi.
Mr.Right, I hope you are well-rested today.
I want you to think through the Brandeis prospects with your intellect rather than reactivity.
Here's my analysis.
First of all, as a coach of any of these good teams who saw the draw and immediately may have felt overwhelmed by how stacked their quadrants are, I would say this (in addition to the usual one game at a time speech)....When you look at the other side of your bracket you don't have to get through all of those other standout teams. There will be only ONE of them. That immediately makes everything seem more doable. And at that point you are at an Elite 8 game and who wouldn't be happy with their chances if they can get to that game? To get to that point, you have to win a couple of tough games, but overall it's probably 3 tough games to get to a final four and not 5 or 6 really tough games, and it might only be 1 or 2 tough games to get to the Elite 8, which is what most teams want (getting to the Elite 8 for a chance to get to the final four).
So, I think Brockport will beat Bowdoin, but even if they don't I think Brandeis will have a tight game with the winner but will find a way to prevail and have a clear edge playing at home. That gets them to the sweet 16, most likely at Oneonta. They don't have to beat SLU AND Amherst, just the winner. Yes, a very good, very tight, tough game, but I would pick Brandeis over either one. Now we're in the Elite 8. Oneonta is the only team in the quad where I would slightly favor the other team against Brandeis. I think F&M would be a great match-up for Brandeis, especially with a final four bid on the line. And I think F&M has the kind of team that will give Oneonta trouble. This is the scenario that I see getting Brandeis to the final four. F&M knocks off Oneonta in the sweet 16 and then F&M is a favorable match-up for the Judges. I would give Brandeis a fair chance against Oneonta too, but as slight underdogs on Oneonta's pitch.
F&M, btw, has the tougher road in my view, because, presumably, they have to get by the winner of Rochester and Salisbury, which will a dangerous game, and then Oneonta just to get to the Elite 8.
NCAA Appearances of Participants
30+ Club
OWU (37)
Wheaton (Ill) (35)
20+ Club
Messiah (25)
Babson (23) -- this surprised me
15+ Club
SLU (19)
Trinity (TX) (18)
Cortland St (16)
Emory (15)
Rochester (15)
Montclair St (15)
10+ Club
Amherst (14)
Muhlenberg (13)
Stevens (13)
Calvin (13)
Dominican (13)
Brandeis (12)
UWW (12)
Salisbury (12)
GAC (11)
Kenyon (11)
Lynchburg (11)
Loras (10)
Wheaton (MA) (10)
And congrats to these first-time ever appearances...
Heidelberg
Covenant
Berry
UMass-Boston
MSOE
SUNY-Purchase
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 09:13:50 AMAnd congrats to these first-time ever appearances...
Covenant
Berry
UMass-Boston
MSOE
SUNY-Purchase
Add Heidelberg to that list.
Wow, how in the world did I miss Heidelberg, LOL?
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
F&M, btw, has the tougher road in my view, because, presumably, they have to get by the winner of Rochester and Salisbury, which will a dangerous game, and then Oneonta just to get to the Elite 8.
Last year, Oneonta hosted and played both F&M and Messiah in their Mayor's Cup tournament. My impression then was that the Red Dragons were very solid defensively but lacked some offensive flair. They appear to have remedied the problem this season with much improved play from returning players Dylan Williams (last year's team MVP), Hans Purtell and Jake Sutherland among others, with key contributions from two newcomers. Their two best new players this season are Greg Silvestro -- an Empire Eight transfer and All-Conference player; and Cory Santangelo -- a freshmen who usually comes of the bench to provide some flair. Cory leads the team, or is tied for the lead, in nearly all offensive categories. Last year's game between Oneonta and F&M was a low scoring affair with very few shots. I would expect a much different game this year should they meet.
I am well rested and I still feel Brandeis will be upset. I am allowed to feel that way. I have seen them play LIVE about 4 times and with the scouting reports we are getting for Brockport and I know Bowdoin they could be upset. I also do not think F&M gets that far either. Oneonta could be overrated as well. This pod looks to have the parity of D3 represented and some upsets will occur here
I also feel that Amherst got screwed a bit. I think that PK loss is what sent them on a 6 hour bus ride up to Canton, NY. I think Amherst should have been sent to Barandeis and Bowdoin to SLU. Babson gets to host but I would be suprised if their season continues after Saturday 1pm.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 11, 2014, 09:52:26 AM
I am well rested and I still feel Brandeis will be upset. I am allowed to feel that way. I have seen them play LIVE about 4 times and with the scouting reports we are getting for Brockport and I know Bowdoin they could be upset. I also do not think F&M gets that far either. Oneonta could be overrated as well. This pod looks to have the parity of D3 represented and some upsets will occur here
Understood. I'm not necessarily predicting that Brandeis
will get through. Just trying to show that it isn't quite as daunting as it looks at first glance, and describing a reasonable scenario that could happen.
Also understand your point on Amherst (as you clearly think they would have a better match-up with Brandeis), but on paper they did get the better deal because rankings/seedings-wise Brandeis is rated higher than SLU.
Remember also that Brandeis, with the highest SOS in the country (and yes, I agree that it's inflated and they had several cupcakes), only lost 2 games all season, away at Rochester and away at Chicago where they dominated the play.
We also know that the Tufts, Case and CMU games at home could have gone either way. From what I am hearing on Brockport, this should be a fun 4 team pod to watch.
Looking for suggestions for naming the four quadrants of the brackets for use on D3soccer.com's HTML brackets (see last year's here (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2013/men/2013-mens-bracket)).
MEN
Oneonta-F&M-Brandeis-St. Lawrence (top left): _________________
Wheaton (Ill.)-Wartburg-Loras-Trinity (bottom left): _________________
Messiah-Cortland-Wheaton (Mass.)-Muhlenberg (top right): _________________
Kenyon-Calvin-Emory-Chris. Newport (bottom right): _________________ <--- this may require some creativity
WOMEN
Messiah-Nazareth-Lynchburg-Montclair St. (top left): _________________
Wheaton (Ill.)-Chicago-Washington U-Lake Forest (bottom left): _________________
Carnegie Mellon-Johns Hopkins-Trinity (tx.)-Thomas More (top right): _________________ <--- this may require some creativity
Williams-MIT-William Smith-Misericordia (bottom right): _________________
Looks almost impossible...go by numbers (Quadrant 1, Quadrant 2, etc or by name of top seed...Messiah Bracket, etc)...OR
New England/New York
Northeast
Mideast or Midwest/Southeast
West or West/North
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 11, 2014, 10:20:45 AM
We also know that the Tufts, Case and CMU games at home could have gone either way. From what I am hearing on Brockport, this should be a fun 4 team pod to watch.
Sure, ANYBODY could lose in the round of 32 except for Messiah, Oneonta, Trinity, and maybe Loras and Wheaton (Ill). Brockport is tough and will take most teams to the wire but their season suggests they lose or tie in the big games (so maybe they get through on the Brandeis field via PKs). Nobody says much about Brandeis' defense but they have one of the lowest goals against average in the country.
In hindsight, looks like those frenetic, hotly-contested last 25-30 minutes of Rochester vs CMU was for a bid. Give UR a loss there and even with the shiny SOS they would be 8-6-3.
Anybody can lose at anytime to anybody PERIOD.
For the women...
Mid-Atlantic
Midwest
Mideast
Northeast (or New England)
An alternative to the using names of top seeds suggestion would be to use the region of the top seeds as the name...
Back in the old days the NCAA bball tournament used to be East, Mideast, Midwest and West Regionals (and maybe it's still like that)
Oneonta St bracket-------Pool C Paradise
Messiah bracket----------14v1
Kenyon bracket-----------Who is my #1 seed?
Wheaton bracket----------How did I get placed here and why am I playing this team
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2014, 09:41:01 PM
In case anyone is interested the NIT has just announced their 16 team field with their final four to be held at Gaelic Park in the Bronx....
Top 4 seeds
Luther
John Carroll
Rutgers-Camden
Haverford
The other 12 teams
St Olaf
Elmhurst
Roanoke
CMU
Middlebury
Centre
Wesleyan
Kalamazoo
UW-O
Colorado Coll
Willamette
Wabash
First 4 out -- Williams, Santa Cruz, Puget Sound, Lycoming
Geez, I forgot WPI....someone's got to get bumped out.
You would think the ECAC regions would have an ultimate winner after all is said and done... It is comprised of 3 regions, so their should be a final weekend with the New England, Metro/Upstate, and South winner (1 wild card perhaps)... OR just get another region together somewhere in the Midwest/West
Metro/Upstate
No. 8 The Sage Colleges (9-7-1) at No. 1 Rutgers University-Camden (13-8-1), 6:00 p.m.
No. 7 Alfred University (9-7-3) at No. 2 Drew University (9-5-6), 6:00 p.m.
No. 6 Centenary College (12-7-1) at No. 3 Richard Stockton College (11-5-5), 7:30 p.m.
No. 5 William Paterson (9-8-2) at No. 4 New York University (11-6), 7:00 p.m
Can see a Stockton vs Camden final here.
New England Region
No. 8 Lesley University (10-6) at No. 1 Norwich University (13-6)
No. 7 Elms College (9-8) at No. 2 Endicott College (9-7)
No. 6 Curry College (10-9) at No. 3 Bridgewater State University (10-8)
No. 5 Albertus Magnus College (11-6) at No. 4 Colby Sawyer College (11-6)
I guess none of the NESCAC teams applied for this... No exciting matchups on this slate.
South
No. 8 Cabrini (13-7-0) at No. 1 Penn State Harrisburg (12-5-1)
No. 7 Widener (10-6-1) at No. 2 Grove City College (12-5-1)
No. 6 Marywood (10-4-4) at No. 3 Misericordia (12-6-2)
No. 5 Swarthmore (9-6-3) at No. 4 Alvernia (11-6-2)
How does Swat get placed as a 5 seed? Cabrini the 8th seed that ruined Camden's season, but won't beat PSU-H. Swat should take this one down. Haven't seen Miseri this year, but they went to PKs with MSU last year in the dance... How long ago was it when Grove City tied Messiah?
Is there another organization within the NCAA for the teams out in Midwest/West?
I'd be happy with a Kzoo, Camden, RPI, John Carroll, Wesleyan or Middlebury, Centre, UW-O, Haverford, Luther, and Elmhurst as well in the mix. 7 v 10, 8 v 9 as a play in.
I understand Messiah is the favorite, but I think whoever gets out of the Babson/Cortland pod could give them a real test in the Sweet 16.
Babson is one of the hottest teams in the country and should not be overlooked by anybody. (assuming they get by Rutgers-Newark)
Also, Brandeis is very good and extremely talented in the middle of the field. I expect them to reach the Elite 8 or even potentially the Final 4 (Oneonta is the best team ive seen all year)
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 10, 2014, 02:52:39 PM
Let's Literally Go.
Final Four Prediction:
Brandeis
Chicago
Messiah
Emory
I'm going to predict that 3 of your choices do not make it - the UAA has underachieved for years and they are not getting three of the final 4.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 10, 2014, 02:52:39 PM
Let's Literally Go.
Final Four Prediction:
Brandeis
Chicago
Messiah
Emory
I'm going to predict that 3 of your choices do not make it - the UAA has underachieved for years and they are not getting three of the final 4.
Two have made the final four in the last 30 years. I forget the Elite 8 numbers, but I think we're only talking about 5 or 6 in the last 15 years.
Emory might not even get by Covenant...
Can't see Chicago getting passed UWW or Wheaton
Brandeis/Rochester pod is just a crapshoot... Hard to see one of the reach the final 4, but that's the UAAs best bet to reach it.
20+ Club
Messiah (25)
Babson (23) -- this surprised me
NCAC, perhaps you are too young, but Babo was the original D3 soccer powerhouse . . . Their tradition has endured.
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 11, 2014, 12:55:32 PM
20+ Club
Messiah (25)
Babson (23) -- this surprised me
NCAC, perhaps you are too young, but Babo was the original D3 soccer powerhouse . . . Their tradition has endured.
They've got a few nat'l titles under their belts.
Sweet 16
Oneonta/F&M
Brandeis/SLU
UWW/Wartburg
Loras/Trinity
Messiah/Babson
Dickinson/Muhls
Kenyon/Calvin
Whitworth/CN
Elite 8
F&M/SLU
Wartburg/Trinity
Messiah/Muhl
Kenyon/CN
Final 4
SLU/Trinity
Messiah/Kenyon
Final
Trinity 1 - Kenyon 3
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Sweet 16
Oneonta/F&M
Brandeis/SLU
UWW/Wartburg
Loras/Trinity
Messiah/Babson
Dickinson/Muhls
Kenyon/Calvin
Whitworth/CN
Elite 8
F&M/SLU
Wartburg/Trinity
Messiah/Muhl
Kenyon/CN
Final 4
SLU/Trinity
Messiah/Kenyon
Final
Trinity 1 - Kenyon 3
I like this except I think F&M would beat SLU.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 11, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Letthekidsplay59 on November 10, 2014, 02:52:39 PM
Let's Literally Go.
Final Four Prediction:
Brandeis
Chicago
Messiah
Emory
I'm going to predict that 3 of your choices do not make it - the UAA has underachieved for years and they are not getting three of the final 4.
Two have made the final four in the last 30 years. I forget the Elite 8 numbers, but I think we're only talking about 5 or 6 in the last 15 years.
Emory might not even get by Covenant...
Can't see Chicago getting passed UWW or Wheaton
Brandeis/Rochester pod is just a crapshoot... Hard to see one of the reach the final 4, but that's the UAAs best bet to reach it.
Lastguy, you are spot on . The UAA is over-rated, every year they are gifted multiple teams into the tournament and every year they bow out early. At least this year they only got 3 teams in, as opposed to previous years when its been 4 or 5 teams.
I think Chicago is going to struggle to get past Wartburg, and may never even see UWW/Wheaton...Wartburg looks very strong this year, and IMHO are the favorite to win that 4 team grouping.
My "bid" to predict the Final Four and Champion:
Final Four
F&M
Messiah
Calvin
Trinity
Semis
Trinity over Calvin (2-1)
Messiah over F&M (3-1)
Championship
Messiah over Trinity (1-0)
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 11, 2014, 12:55:32 PM
20+ Club
Messiah (25)
Babson (23) -- this surprised me
NCAC, perhaps you are too young, but Babo was the original D3 soccer powerhouse . . . Their tradition has endured.
Not doing one's homework always gets someone in trouble. So I see Babson won in '75, '79, '80. Those were my high school and soph and junior college years. That's a long, long time ago, so "too young" is appreciated at this point I guess.
I had also forgotten that Kenyon not only had hosted before but actually hosted a Final Four in '96 when they lost the final to TCNJ in 4 OTs.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 11, 2014, 11:08:31 AM
Oneonta St bracket-------Pool C Paradise
Messiah bracket----------14v1
Kenyon bracket-----------Who is my #1 seed?
Wheaton bracket----------How did I get placed here and why am I playing this team
Very well done. I like it . . . a lot! But may be a little too "unconventional" to use on the website.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 10:32:41 AM
Looks almost impossible...go by numbers (Quadrant 1, Quadrant 2, etc or by name of top seed...Messiah Bracket, etc)...OR
New England/New York
Northeast
Mideast or Midwest/Southeast
West or West/North
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 10:47:00 AM
For the women...
Mid-Atlantic
Midwest
Mideast
Northeast (or New England)
An alternative to the using names of top seeds suggestion would be to use the region of the top seeds as the name...
Back in the old days the NCAA bball tournament used to be East, Mideast, Midwest and West Regionals (and maybe it's still like that)
Mideast? Mmmm. Might have to use that. I used "Transcontinental" one year to cover a quadrant that had a broad geographic mix.
Here is what I was coming up with before looking at the responses here . . .
MEN
Oneonta-F&M-Brandeis-St. Lawrence (top left): ATLANTIC or NORTHEAST
Wheaton (Ill.)-Wartburg-Loras-Trinity (bottom left): MIDWEST or CENTRAL
Messiah-Cortland-Wheaton (Mass.)-Muhlenberg (top right): NORTHEAST OR ATLANTIC
Kenyon-Calvin-Emory-Chris. Newport (bottom right): ??????
WOMEN
Messiah-Nazareth-Lynchburg-Montclair St. (top left): MID-ATLANTIC or EAST
Wheaton (Ill.)-Chicago-Washington U-Lake Forest (bottom left): MIDWEST or CENTRAL
Carnegie Mellon-Johns Hopkins-Trinity (tx.)-Thomas More (top right): ??????
Williams-MIT-William Smith-Misericordia (bottom right): NORTHEAST OR NEW ENGLAND
A good poll would be pick the best potential 2nd round game out of these blockbusters....
Rochester/Salisbury vs F&M
Amherst vs SLU
Dickinson/Tufts vs Wheaton
OWU vs Calvin
Emory vs Whitworth
Montclair vs CNU
For me the most titanic are OWU/Calvin, Amherst/SLU and Montclair/CNU
This tournament is going to be great!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 11, 2014, 11:34:40 AMYou would think the ECAC regions would have an ultimate winner after all is said and done... It is comprised of 3 regions, so their should be a final weekend with the New England, Metro/Upstate, and South winner (1 wild card perhaps)... OR just get another region together somewhere in the Midwest/West
Metro/Upstate
No. 8 The Sage Colleges (9-7-1) at No. 1 Rutgers University-Camden (13-8-1), 6:00 p.m.
No. 7 Alfred University (9-7-3) at No. 2 Drew University (9-5-6), 6:00 p.m.
No. 6 Centenary College (12-7-1) at No. 3 Richard Stockton College (11-5-5), 7:30 p.m.
No. 5 William Paterson (9-8-2) at No. 4 New York University (11-6), 7:00 p.m
Can see a Stockton vs Camden final here.
New England Region
No. 8 Lesley University (10-6) at No. 1 Norwich University (13-6)
No. 7 Elms College (9-8) at No. 2 Endicott College (9-7)
No. 6 Curry College (10-9) at No. 3 Bridgewater State University (10-8)
No. 5 Albertus Magnus College (11-6) at No. 4 Colby Sawyer College (11-6)
I guess none of the NESCAC teams applied for this... No exciting matchups on this slate.
South
No. 8 Cabrini (13-7-0) at No. 1 Penn State Harrisburg (12-5-1)
No. 7 Widener (10-6-1) at No. 2 Grove City College (12-5-1)
No. 6 Marywood (10-4-4) at No. 3 Misericordia (12-6-2)
No. 5 Swarthmore (9-6-3) at No. 4 Alvernia (11-6-2)
How does Swat get placed as a 5 seed? Cabrini the 8th seed that ruined Camden's season, but won't beat PSU-H. Swat should take this one down. Haven't seen Miseri this year, but they went to PKs with MSU last year in the dance... How long ago was it when Grove City tied Messiah?
Is there another organization within the NCAA for the teams out in Midwest/West?
I'd be happy with a Kzoo, Camden, RPI, John Carroll, Wesleyan or Middlebury, Centre, UW-O, Haverford, Luther, and Elmhurst as well in the mix. 7 v 10, 8 v 9 as a play in.
I know some people and coaches poo-poo a runners-up tournament, and I completely get why an relatively strong established program might take a pass in the odd year they miss the NCAA's, but I like to see upstarts and wanna-be upstarts play in the ECAC's. It gives your players a couple more do-or-die, win-or-go-home games against decent competition to add to their experience they will carry into next season and it has served some coaches very well in building up their program. I think Rutgers-Camden is one example of that, if I'm not mistaken. And without being able to recall at the moment, I think other ECAC champions have then gone on to get into the NCAA's the next year. For a up-and-coming team, seems to me there's something to be gained and nothing to lose as long as you can approach it the right way and keep your players focused and serious. And if you can't manage that, either you or your squad might not have what it takes to make the step up to the next level. I think this is an awesome opportunity for PSU-Harrisburg, for example. Alvernia had high number of seniors starting, so maybe not as useful for them, but still benefits the underclassmen. Why wouldn't Lycoming participate? Their squad is on the younger side if I recall, and this could have been good for them.
BTW, the ref should step in and stop the current poll contest. John Carroll is winning in a landslide.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 04:47:20 PM
A good poll would be pick the best potential 2nd round game out of these blockbusters....
Rochester/Salisbury vs F&M
Amherst vs SLU
Dickinson/Tufts vs Wheaton
OWU vs Calvin
Emory vs Whitworth
Montclair vs CNU
For me the most titanic are OWU/Calvin, Amherst/SLU and Montclair/CNU
This tournament is going to be great!
I might use that! And the rest of this year and next year, if you ever have suggestions, let me know. I'd love to change the pools more quickly, but to be perfectly honest, it's not the highest priority and sometimes I just am plumb out of ideas. So I'm always open to suggestions.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 05:04:40 PM
BTW, the ref should step in and stop the current poll contest. John Carroll is winning in a landslide.
It would have been more lopsided if the poll had been about which team that got in least deserved it, don't you think? We would have found out how many Texas-Dallas fans, players, and family visit our website!
Hey, the polls are always great. You do a great job with them. Occasionally they are up a day or two too long, but nothing to complain about.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 11, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 05:04:40 PM
BTW, the ref should step in and stop the current poll contest. John Carroll is winning in a landslide.
It would have been more lopsided if the poll had been about which team that got in least deserved it, don't you think? We would have found out how many Texas-Dallas fans, players, and family visit our website!
I actually think there would have been a better distribution... among Tex-Dallas, Dominican, North Park, Salisbury, Rochester and Brockport, with the first 3 dominating the votes....but of course now that all of them are in most of them are being predicted to do some damage.
Interesting ... the Texas sub-bracket originally had Trinity-UTD and HSU-Pomona in the first round; per a tweet from Trinity (and confirmed at the UT-D athletics site) that has been changed to UTD-Pomona (first game, 5:00pm Saturday) and Trinity-HSU (7:30 Sat) with the winners meeting Sunday at 5:00pm.
I am betting Trinity is the actual home team but could not host due to women or something else. In 2009 Williams was the higher seed but still had to travel to RPI and play there in the 1st round because of their women hosting even though they have 2 fields. The committee screwed it up and thought they only had one. Williams played the weakest side in the pod Husson while RPI played ECONN. When RPI and Williams met the next day, Williams was the home team on RPI's turf field.
Nescac teams have been banned from the ECAC's since 2000. If you are not good enough for the NCAA's then your season is over. Why waste academic time for and 2nd tier tournament I can imagine the school Presidents saying. In 1993 Nescac teams were allowed to compete in the NCAA's and ECAC's but when the leauge was formed into an actual playing league in 2000 the Presidents said good bye to the ECAC's. Also, to the poster pining for intra region competition in ECAC they used to do that as well. The New England region winners would always compete with the Metro region and since the NCAA fields were much much smaller back then you could have some really intense games. One year you had Dave Masur's(St.Johns coach now) Montclair St team against Williams. Middlebury played TCNJ one year. It was always a very good NJAC team against a very good Nescac in the final.
But this is an even year. Men's team have priority to host in the 1st/2nd Rounds when both teams are in the tournament and deserving of hosting. Next weekend the women have priority for hosting Sectionals. So the Trinity men shouldn't have been prevented from hosted for that reason, but who knows.
I can see that the committee was in a bind geographically (travel cost and time) and taking Texas-Dallas helped solve that problem, but don't see why Trinity men wouldn't have hosted. And if it is because they couldn't make the women's brackets work without the Trinity women hosting, then why not give Trinity men one the byes so they only have the single game on Sunday which isn't a problem with the women hosting. In that case they still needed a filler team like Texas-Dallas, but Hardin-Simmons could have hosted them in the midweek first round game with the winner travelling to Trinity on Sunday. And Pomona-Pitzer would be flown to Wheaton instead of Texas as Wheaton wouldn't have the bye if it was awarded to Trinity. But I now see that Wheaton like Messiah has the women hosting a 4-team pod and the men getting a bye and only hosting a single game on Sunday, so there'd be problems there.
It would be interesting to know if something else was behind the Trinity men not hosting as was suggested earlier.
Hmm I have no idea. Maybe the committee overlooked the bye aspect and then the school decided to have their own coin flip because you are right they only have one turf field and the men would normally host. Does seem almost more odd than UT Dallas getting a Pool C
Can someone explain to me how a team with 3 losses (Wheaton, IL) gets one of only three byes in the tourney? The other two teams with byes were undefeated and there are numerous teams between undefeated and 3 losses.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 11, 2014, 05:28:07 PM
Interesting ... the Texas sub-bracket originally had Trinity-UTD and HSU-Pomona in the first round; per a tweet from Trinity (and confirmed at the UT-D athletics site) that has been changed to UTD-Pomona (first game, 5:00pm Saturday) and Trinity-HSU (7:30 Sat) with the winners meeting Sunday at 5:00pm.
The announcement show and the initial printable bracket both had Texas-Dallas v Pomona-Pitzer and Trinty v Hardin-Simmons. It is odd that two different team would have made the same error.
The OWU at Calvin match-up would feature two likely 1st team All-Americans at forward.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 11, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
Hmm I have no idea. Maybe the committee overlooked the bye aspect and then the school decided to have their own coin flip because you are right they only have one turf field and the men would normally host. Does seem almost more odd than UT Dallas getting a Pool C
Well, if they overlooked the bye option, that's some serious incompetence on their part. The three byes are major "tools" they have to make the whole bracket work while accomplishing their goal of minimizing travel time and costs (unfortunately, I can't figure out how they could have solved the travel issues completely without taking a somewhat undeserving team like Texas-Dallas). And the whole reason for predetermined men's or women's hosting priority was to take the decision out of the hands of the schools so they didn't have to deal with the pressures and tensions of having to choose one team over the other. So if they'd ever throw the decision back to the school it would be in direct conflict with the basis for the policy in the first place. I'm still leaning towards something else being at work here.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 08:04:25 PM
Can someone explain to me how a team with 3 losses (Wheaton, IL) gets one of only three byes in the tourney? The other two teams with byes were undefeated and there are numerous teams between undefeated and 3 losses.
I can't attempt a full answer, but maybe these were factors...
They needed to move Wheaton to add some balance to the quads as the the other one already was top-heavy.
Maybe the bye was to smooth over moving them.
Informally, there are some, including me, who consider Wheaton the second best team in the country (at least talent-wise).
They couldn't give it Trinity for reasons that have been hinted but not clarified.
Loras lost a claim to it when they did not win IIAC tournament.
All I can think of.
NCAC New England - thanks for the reply on Wheaton getting a first round bye - good points. Still a bit perplexing to me.
Agree that Wheaton (IL) has numerous talented players, but not sure they have a top 2 team.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 08:45:18 PM
NCAC New England - thanks for the reply on Wheaton getting a first round bye - good points. Still a bit perplexing to me.
Agree that Wheaton (IL) has numerous talented players, but not sure they have a top 2 team.
I think they can be beaten and obviously are far more vulnerable than Messiah, but they are one of the only teams that can match (or come close) to Messiah on size, speed, skill, number of players who either did play D1 or could have, etc, etc. And like Messiah, OWU, etc they have a very proud tradition and I assume a beloved coach who is coaching in his final NCAA tournament. They have some early tests -- probably UWW and Wartburg -- but if they reach the Elite 8 I think they would win that game.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 08:45:18 PM
NCAC New England - thanks for the reply on Wheaton getting a first round bye - good points. Still a bit perplexing to me.
Agree that Wheaton (IL) has numerous talented players, but not sure they have a top 2 team.
I think they can be beaten and obviously are far more vulnerable than Messiah, but they are one of the only teams that can match (or come close) to Messiah on size, speed, skill, number of players who either did play D1 or could have, etc, etc. And like Messiah, OWU, etc they have a very proud tradition and I assume a beloved coach who is coaching in his final NCAA tournament. They have some early tests -- probably UWW and Wartburg -- but if they reach the Elite 8 I think they would win that game.
Agree on size, speed, skill, D1 prospects, etc, Wheaton (IL) seems to come close to Messiah. The biggest difference is style of play - these two teams are very different in that regard.
I wonder if that has something to do with that terrible high-speed, 1980s style artificial turf.
FYI, OWU probably is closest to Messiah style-wise, and while they are certainly not small, they are small compared to Messiah and probably don't match what Messiah can do in terms of all 10 players on the field. Bloecher, though, is a stud. If you to the OWU website you can watch his great goal against Kenyon about 20 times from several different angles. That was a tremendously athletic play and finish that few players in the country could have managed.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
I wonder if that has something to do with that terrible high-speed, 1980s style artificial turf.
If you are referring to Wheaton's field, they actually have a brand new Field Turf surface. A very nice venue with its own unique character. Hosted the Final 4 in 1999 I believe
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 11, 2014, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
I wonder if that has something to do with that terrible high-speed, 1980s style artificial turf.
If you are referring to Wheaton's field, they actually have a brand new Field Turf surface. A very nice venue with its own unique character. Hosted the Final 4 in 1999 I believe
Brand new as in this year?
Wheaton's current artificial turf is brand new this year. More like grass than their previous turf...but still turf unfortunately.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Wheaton's current artificial turf is brand new this year. More like grass than their previous turf...but still turf unfortunately.
OK, that's good. Glad to hear they addressed what was a blemish on an otherwise great venue.
Now, if only Calvin...
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
I wonder if that has something to do with that terrible high-speed, 1980s style artificial turf.
FYI, OWU probably is closest to Messiah style-wise, and while they are certainly not small, they are small compared to Messiah and probably don't match what Messiah can do in terms of all 10 players on the field. Bloecher, though, is a stud. If you to the OWU website you can watch his great goal against Kenyon about 20 times from several different angles. That was a tremendously athletic play and finish that few players in the country could have managed.
I think the turf is a contributing factor to Wheaton's frantic pace.
As for OWU size...
Rostered players 6.0 feet or taller
OWU - 14 players
Messiah - 12 players
OWU doesn't look to be a smaller team than Messiah.
Do you think Bloecher is in the same league as Payne (MC)?
His numbers aren't quite there...
Bloecher 15 g, 4 a
Payne 19 g, 9 a
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Sweet 16
UWW/Wartburg
Loras/Trinity
Hey Wingtips, while I would love to see this matchup, how do you imagine the UWW/Wheaton game goes in order for this to happen?
When you look at them on the field Messiah looks much bigger and in some spots have a burst of explosion that is unique to them. You need to compare starting line-ups for size, and OWU does have two tall center backs but they are thinly built.
I think Bloecher and Payne are two very different players, and Vegter is different from either of them too.
Bloecher generally isn't going to dribble a lot or cut through 4 defenders, but he has an uncanny ability to find the right spots to be dangerous, and he can hurt you in several different ways. He's not often going to score from 25 yard blasts (although he can), but his runs into the box and plays inside the box are top-notch and he finishes his chances at a very high clip. He's also a high level competitor and extremely clutch. Also very dangerous on any free kicks from 25 yards and in. I'd have to see Vegter play again to be sure, but I tend to think Bloecher and Payne are more versatile while Vegter has a lethal shot and will score if he has space from 25-28 yards out with regularity.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 10:35:10 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Wheaton's current artificial turf is brand new this year. More like grass than their previous turf...but still turf unfortunately.
OK, that's good. Glad to hear they addressed what was a blemish on an otherwise great venue.
Now, if only Calvin...
True that about Calvin's field - it has not changed one bit in over 40 years. That said, they have major plans to completely rebuild the entire outdoor sports complex including a new soccer venue with field turf. But those are on hold for the foreseeable future due to financial constraints.
On a related note - I wonder if they will be shoveling snow off the field for this weekend's games due to the polar vortex storm blowing through there now. They had to do that a few years ago if I recall.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 11:16:59 PM
When you look at them on the field Messiah looks much bigger and in some spots have a burst of explosion that is unique to them. You need to compare starting line-ups for size, and OWU does have two tall center backs but they are thinly built.
I think Bloecher and Payne are two very different players, and Vegter is different from either of them too.
Bloecher generally isn't going to dribble a lot or cut through 4 defenders, but he has an uncanny ability to find the right spots to be dangerous, and he can hurt you in several different ways. He's not often going to score from 25 yard blasts (although he can), but his runs into the box and plays inside the box are top-notch and he finishes his chances at a very high clip. The He's also a high level competitor and extremely clutch. Also very dangerous on any free kicks from 25 yards and in. I'd have to see Vegter play again to be sure, but I tend to think Bloecher and Payne are more versatile while Vegter has a lethal shot and will score if he has space from 25-28 yards out with regularity.
How does Bloecher compare to Travis Wall, the POY in 2011? Wall was tough for Messiah to mark and scored their lone goal in Messiah's 2-1 victory at OWU in 2011.
Just my impressions keep in mind....Wall needed the ball and he could cut through 3-4 defenders and produce some magic all on his own, although OWU has a definite passing game and a lot of their goals come off some clever combination play. Bloecher is superb moving without the ball. That doesn't mean he can't handle the ball because he can. What Wall and Bloecher share is an uncanny ability to produce something unexpected, sometimes seemingly out of nothing, and Bloecher seems to beat you in some way you haven't seen him beat you before. Wall probably a little more technically skilled and Bloecher a little more athletic.
As for Vegter (CC)...his stats are interesting versus Payne (MC)...
Vegter has 23 goals (10 assists)
10 of his goals came from games where CC finished with a 5 goal or more lead
7 of his goals came in two games where he scored 3 and 4 goals
Looks like stats might be a little padded, letting him run up some big games.
Payne has 19 goals (9 assists)
Only 4 of Payne's goals came from games where MC finished with a 5 goal or more lead
Payne has not scored more than 2 goals in any game this year. I don't think MC would allow it. As soon as they go up, he's out (and of course MC has the horses to substitute for him). I'd venture to guess he has fewer minutes than any other leading scorer in the nation.
I think Payne, D3POY in 2012 as a sophomore, will repeat in 2014. Just my opinion.
Payne may well win that but he also benefits from the playing with the other "best 9" in the country. And his competition easily could come from within his own team via Thompson and Ramirez.
Good call on Thompson and Ramirez -also great players - and they are younger brothers of former Messiah players (one of Messiah's many strengths seems to be getting multiple players from the same family).
Possible greatest upset?
Looks like we got some very late night ballot stuffing out of Northfield, MN.
Quote from: Allsoccer7 on November 12, 2014, 01:09:13 AM
Possible greatest upset?
Committee placed two close ones together again:
Rose-Hulman over Kenyon AND OWU (just kidding)
Neumann over Messiah (just kidding)
Does Westminster (MO) have a chance vs a banged up Loras school in a rematch from last year?
MSOE over Wartburg (MSOE one or two good wins, but can they pull this one out?)
The possible ones I see:
CSS over Chicago
Catholic over Coast Guard
Berry over Emory (Emory won 1-0 earlier in year, shot count was 11-11).
Thomas More over North Park
My 6 Possible Upsets. I think maybe 3 of these might happen just not sure which ones
Lynchburg over CNU
Thomas More over North Park
Catholic over Coast Guard
St.Sch over Chicago
Berry over Emory
Husson over Brandeis
4 team pod of CNU,Lynchburg,MSU and Stevens is one of the more intriguing pods. Stevens is young with only 1 senior but they looked decent enough to maybe win a couple games.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 08:04:25 PM
Can someone explain to me how a team with 3 losses (Wheaton, IL) gets one of only three byes in the tourney? The other two teams with byes were undefeated and there are numerous teams between undefeated and 3 losses.
I'm still perplexed that the NCAA can't add 3 more teams to make it a full 64 team field....
So the decision to awards byes is beyond baffling to me.
NCAA has a formula they use, based on number of participating teams in a sport, that determines how many playoff bids are awarded ... plus three more teams would cost them that much more money and the AA is never known for freely spending money on D3.
Quote from: WarhawkFan on November 11, 2014, 11:15:43 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Sweet 16
UWW/Wartburg
Loras/Trinity
Hey Wingtips, while I would love to see this matchup, how do you imagine the UWW/Wheaton game goes in order for this to happen?
If Wheaton brings the offense of the conference tourney then I don't see UWW winning.
But I see UWW winning their 8th 1-0 game of the season.
Quote from: Allsoccer7 on November 12, 2014, 01:09:13 AM
Possible greatest upset?
Catholic over Coast Guard - CG has 3 draws and a loss in their last 4 games.
PSBehrend has a chance - last year wasn't the only tourney that OWU has dropped the ball in the last 6 years (09- Transylvania & 12- Centre).
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 12, 2014, 10:53:09 AM
Quote from: WarhawkFan on November 11, 2014, 11:15:43 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 11, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Sweet 16
UWW/Wartburg
Loras/Trinity
Hey Wingtips, while I would love to see this matchup, how do you imagine the UWW/Wheaton game goes in order for this to happen?
If Wheaton brings the offense of the conference tourney then I don't see UWW winning.
But I see UWW winning their 8th 1-0 game of the season.
Fair enough, I could see that happening. 2 out of Wheaton's 3 losses have come with a 1-0 scoreline and UWW does have 7 (wow) 1-0 wins this year. I was imagining something similar (or possibly 0-0/1-1 with UWW holding on for PKs).
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 11:16:59 PM
Bloecher generally isn't going to dribble a lot or cut through 4 defenders, but he has an uncanny ability to find the right spots to be dangerous, and he can hurt you in several different ways. He's not often going to score from 25 yard blasts (although he can), but his runs into the box and plays inside the box are top-notch and he finishes his chances at a very high clip. He's also a high level competitor and extremely clutch. Also very dangerous on any free kicks from 25 yards and in. I'd have to see Vegter play again to be sure, but I tend to think Bloecher and Payne are more versatile while Vegter has a lethal shot and will score if he has space from 25-28 yards out with regularity.
As an MIAA fan, I have seen Vegter play numerous times over the last few years. He plays the game as if his life depends upon his team winning, with a drive and enthusiasm and aggression I have rarely, if ever, seen at this level. His ability to finish a scoring opportunity, whether inside or outside the box, is second to none. He is both fast and quick, but I would describe his ability to beat one or more defenders off the dribble as slightly above average but not elite. Bottom line, he will do whatever it takes to lead his team to victory, from diving to draw a PK to giving up his body to force a turnover to striking a laser from 25 yards out into the upper 90.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 12, 2014, 11:05:53 AM
Quote from: Allsoccer7 on November 12, 2014, 01:09:13 AM
Possible greatest upset?
Catholic over Coast Guard - CG has 3 draws and a loss in their last 4 games.
Catholic has 3 draws in their last 5 games. Based on recent results, this could be the game most likely to go to PKs which would seem to suit Catholic just fine. Catholic won the Landmark conference tournament with two draws and triumphed on PKs.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 12, 2014, 10:39:09 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 12, 2014, 10:31:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 11, 2014, 08:04:25 PM
Can someone explain to me how a team with 3 losses (Wheaton, IL) gets one of only three byes in the tourney? The other two teams with byes were undefeated and there are numerous teams between undefeated and 3 losses.
I'm still perplexed that the NCAA can't add 3 more teams to make it a full 64 team field....
So the decision to awards byes is beyond baffling to me.
NCAA has a formula they use, based on number of participating teams in a sport, that determines how many playoff bids are awarded ... plus three more teams would cost them that much more money and the AA is never known for freely spending money on D3.
As presented in D3soccer.com's introduction to the tournament (http://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2014/2014-about) and my earlier column on the AQ's and Pool B and C at-large berths (http://d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2014/AQs-PoolB-PoolC-explained), the NCAA has prescribed an approximate 6.5 to 1 access ratio for most Division III team sports. That is, 1 tournament spot for every 6.5 tournament eligible teams. Division III men's soccer has 399 eligible team this season. 399 / 6.5 = 61.4, thus a 61-team field for the men's tournament. The women have a full 64-team field because they have 427 eligible teams (427 / 6.5 = 65.7 > 64, use max. of 64).
CG is trash.. I dont even know how they made it this far into the season before the crumbled.. All they do is run and get in the way, not a single one of their players would start on a NESCAC, maybe not even the 2nd 11 of these programs. the only exception is maybe their goalie, but he isnt great either.. i expect them to lose in the first round
Quote from: Soccergeek on November 12, 2014, 11:21:26 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 11, 2014, 11:16:59 PM
Bloecher generally isn't going to dribble a lot or cut through 4 defenders, but he has an uncanny ability to find the right spots to be dangerous, and he can hurt you in several different ways. He's not often going to score from 25 yard blasts (although he can), but his runs into the box and plays inside the box are top-notch and he finishes his chances at a very high clip. He's also a high level competitor and extremely clutch. Also very dangerous on any free kicks from 25 yards and in. I'd have to see Vegter play again to be sure, but I tend to think Bloecher and Payne are more versatile while Vegter has a lethal shot and will score if he has space from 25-28 yards out with regularity.
As an MIAA fan, I have seen Vegter play numerous times over the last few years. He plays the game as if his life depends upon his team winning, with a drive and enthusiasm and aggression I have rarely, if ever, seen at this level. His ability to finish a scoring opportunity, whether inside or outside the box, is second to none. He is both fast and quick, but I would describe his ability to beat one or more defenders off the dribble as slightly above average but not elite. Bottom line, he will do whatever it takes to lead his team to victory, from diving to draw a PK to giving up his body to force a turnover to striking a laser from 25 yards out into the upper 90.
This completely jives with my impression of Vegter from his play as a freshman at the 2011 Final Four. He seemed to play and carry himself with an awfully high level of confidence and maybe even cockiness for a freshman, but he had the quality and intensity to match as for me he was one of the standout players at that Final Four.
Quote from: D3Soceerfan on November 12, 2014, 12:25:35 PM
CG is trash.. I dont even know how they made it this far into the season before the crumbled.. All they do is run and get in the way, not a single one of their players would start on a NESCAC, maybe not even the 2nd 11 of these programs. the only exception is maybe their goalie, but he isnt great either.. i expect them to lose in the first round
Coast Guard will not make it past the 2nd round, but they did beat the only NESCAC team they played this year - semi-finalist Conn. C. Not bad for 3rd stringers. They also tied Wheaton and beat Babson. Admittedly, Coast Guard is very defensive minded and does not play "the beautiful game", but they are tremendously fit and will not be outworked on the pitch. Catholic's chances in round one? Slim and nun.
Quote from: Off Pitch on November 12, 2014, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: D3Soceerfan on November 12, 2014, 12:25:35 PM
CG is trash.. I dont even know how they made it this far into the season before the crumbled.. All they do is run and get in the way, not a single one of their players would start on a NESCAC, maybe not even the 2nd 11 of these programs. the only exception is maybe their goalie, but he isnt great either.. i expect them to lose in the first round
Coast Guard will not make it past the 2nd round, but they did beat the only NESCAC team they played this year - semi-finalist Conn. C. Not bad for 3rd stringers. They also tied Wheaton and beat Babson. Admittedly, Coast Guard is very defensive minded and does not play "the beautiful game", but they are tremendously fit and will not be outworked on the pitch. Catholic's chances in round one? Slim and nun.
OffPitch...CG was extraordinary lucky to win 1-0 vs Conn on a big keeper error....they were outshot, outhustled and outplayed, but they did make count one of their only 4 shots all game...Conn walked in alone 3 times in that game but never finished (story of Conn season...no finish and bad goaltending).....Catholic just has to be patient and be wary of the lone striker counter attack...if you are patient they can be beaten because they bring no attacking ability at all to pitch...however the attacking team must remain patient and probe and not rush its offense....i'll be surprised if they get by Catholic
Maybe Coast Guard was tired from having to make that long trip to Conn.
I'm a fan of the Massey Ratings. I think they do a pretty good job at objectively ranking the teams in various sports. If you review their latest Division III Men's Soccer rankings (through Sunday's games), these are the teams that have the biggest gripe about being left out of the tournament:
Elmhurst (No. 24)
Haverford (No. 25)
Rensselaer (No. 28)
Kalamazoo (No. 31)
Worcester Tech (No. 32)
These are the at-large teams that should be thankful the Massey Ratings aren't relevant:
Dominican (No. 33)
Rochester (No. 34)
Salisbury St. (No. 37)
Brockport St. (No. 51)
Texas-Dallas (No. 60)
I also find Massey Rankings to be very accurate (except they hold no weight for what matters).
I'm intrigued with the CSS vs Chicago game, soccergeek... CSS SOS of #334 vs Chicago SOS of #1, respectively
Purchase SOS 340
Morrisville St SOS 345
Daniel Webster SOS 369
Baruch SOS 379
Quote from: Off Pitch on November 12, 2014, 12:54:09 PMCatholic's chances in round one? Slim and nun.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F002%2F144%2Ffry.jpg&hash=df775b1c88b1f0062fb60581669d06b40d69f678)
Figures school ramps up the first week of the tournament. General comments on some of the threads of conversation:
With regards to who gets at-large bids - The one thing we can't know is if/how the national committee judges the strength of one region relative to another. So while we can compare record versus ranked, etc. for John Carroll and Brockport, it's really tough to know how the committee values those regions. Ultimately, John Carroll probably got punished for the Great Lakes being "down" - OWU wasn't dominant, Case was average, and Ohio Northern, DePauw, and Carnegie Mellon were way down. That also explains how Salisbury made it in without deserving a bid IMO. I think everyone figured they were safe, but they haven't done much to "earn" the bid. They just benefitted from a "stronger" region. Personally, I disagree with it, as the Great Lakes put two teams in the national title game in three seasons and boasts the only non-Messiah winner in the last 5+ years. But going forward JCU needs to schedule OWU, Kenyon, Carnegie, basically the best Great Lakes teams if it wants a cushion following the OAC tournament.
For UT-Dallas, it could have been as simple as the committee (rightly) thinks Trinity is really good, and beating them was better than anything JCU had on its resume. Along those lines, the one thing you can say about Dominican is that they went out and scheduled people. And they also beat North Park, which is better than JCU's best win. Not justifying anything, but trying to find reasoning behind the selections.
Kenyon proved it can win the whole thing IMO by beating OWU. Just watched the tape, and it had late-round NCAA quality written all over it. The loss shouldn't affect OWU as they had slightly better chances and could have won it, but for Kenyon that win validates everything they've done so far. If they'd lost to OWU, then in the back of their heads when they see Calvin, Messiah, whoever, they know they haven't beaten anyone near that quality yet. Now they have confidence and momentum in that type of game. Having said that, they have a tough opening weekend. Kenyon usually benefits from physically pushing teams out of their game, but from what I know Heidelberg and North Park both play that exact style. Even though Kenyon is better than those teams, they won't get rattled with the physicality.
In response to the Bloecher/Wall/Payne/Vegter discussion, I'd put Vegter and Brown from Christopher Newport as the most dynamic forwards I've seen in a few years. I think Payne and Bloecher are pretty similar: great finishers, powerful players. Maybe give Payne a slight edge running at players but Bloecher is better finishing with his head than anyone I've ever seen at this level. Vegter is actually the closest to Wall in my opinion. Wall was a non-stop engine, all over the field. Beat you with long-range shooting, headers, running at people, assists, anything.
As for early upsets, I agree Coast Guard and Bowdoin have tough early games. OWU has the mental hurdle of getting past a team they're "supposed" to beat - they haven't won an NCAA game since the 2011 title. I wouldn't even consider Rochester over Salisbury an upset at this point. Chicago was great in-conference and played a bear of a schedule but they also took some losses that you simply shouldn't take, so I'd put them on upset alert, both in the first and second round. I think Berry and Lynchburg could surprise.
For the second round, basically everyone has a tough matchup except Oneonta, Messiah, and (maybe) Trinity.
I have some additional thoughts on the bracket but will save those for another time.
Regarding the above w/r/t/ John Carroll the Blue Streaks are in a bit of conundrum. They did (almost) everything right to get in, short of winning the AQ. If the other Great Lakes teams noted above have better seasons going forward then there is the likelihood that those teams (ONU, DPU, CMU, OWU, Kenyon) will be regionally ranked ahead of JCU. What are they to do when ONU, as ONU typically does, wins the AQ (and the regular season)? If JCU schedules more of those teams they'll likely have a higher SOS but they will also have more blemishes. If they couldn't get in with an unbeaten, untied regular season and a 17-4 overall record, then how will they get if they 13-5-2? So the most parsimonious explanation to me is that they just got screwed, plain and simple. Who knows when they will have this kind of season again, but if they do, hopefully they won't get screwed again.
I would agree that Kenyon getting the win over OWU was very big for Kenyon psychologically, but not necessarily for the same reasons. As RH noted previously there has been a hurdle to overcome with respect to OWU specifically. Sure, it always helps to get a win against a great team, especially in a hostile environment with high stakes and facing a team that wanted it just as badly, but on the other hand this Kenyon squad knows they can beat other big teams, as the foundation for this season came on the back of wins over ONU and Wheaton and an extremely competitive game with Messiah last year. And while it is true that OWU did have some very near misses (hitting post a couple of times and a couple of other close in chances) and just as easily could have won, Kenyon did have a significant edge statistically with 11 SOG to 4 I believe and 11 corners to 1. As for the early match-ups Heidelberg is on a run, and Heidelberg handed Kenyon a loss last year that put a ton of pressure on Kenyon not to lose any more games (which they didn't until the NCAC tourney final). On the other hand, Kenyon is very familiar with Heidelberg and if they can't advance out of that game on their home field then they don't deserve a long run. I'm sure North Park also would be very challenging and the Vikings clearly have quite a bit of talent. One wonders, though, if North Park will be relishing the chance to knock out Kenyon before they have dispatched Thomas More. I doubt Thomas More is going to just roll over for them. I fully expect OWU to easily win their first game and then beat Calvin (mostly on the idea that Bloecher has a stronger supporting cast than Vegter and Martin will come in with a very good and inspired game plan), so if the Lords can get through the weekend I think we will get a riveting Round 3 of Kenyon-OWU which would be even better as an Elite 8 tilt.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 12, 2014, 06:27:38 PMOne wonders, though, if North Park will be relishing the chance to knock out Kenyon before they have dispatched Thomas More.
That's not going to happen -- and I don't say that simply because I am an NPU partisan. And, no, it's not a matter of, "NPU head coach John Born won't allow his team to look ahead," etc., because when fans say that kind of thing it's really just boosterism in a roundabout way.
No coach ever allows his team to look ahead in the postseason; whether players actually ever do or not is another matter, of course, since coaches don't have mind-control powers (much as they might like to have them).
No, the reason why I say that it's not going to happen is because North Park is in a totally new bracket situation this year. NPU is a regular participant in the D3 tourney, but up until now the Vikings have always been placed in the western section of the bracket. That's familiar ground, and people around the NPU program would have a good sense of who's who and what's what if they were sharing a pod with the likes of Dominican, Loras, Chicago, UW-Whitewater, Wartburg, etc. But the Great Lakes Region is
terra incognita for the Park; heck, NPU hasn't played an Ohio-based side in even the
regular season since 2005. John Born almost always looks west, north, and south for his regular-season opponents, not east. Thus, you can't look ahead when you really have no familiarity with either your first-round opponent or your prospective second-round opponents, or even a common frame of reference (NPU has no common opponents with any of the other three teams in the Kenyon pod).
The only thing that the Vikings will be relishing is the chance to participate in this tourney, which was certainly not a given for them going into the selection process. NPU will be focused upon Thomas More, because there's really no reason for the Vikings not to do so.
Snow on the ground at Calvin's campus ... Not to the level that USMNT played on in Denver earlier this year but it may make for some interesting field conditions for the Fri/Sat games. Here's a link to a campus webcam of the central part of campus - the field is just beyond the building/trees on the horizon:
http://www.calvin.edu/about/campus-location/webcams/
Good luck to everyone in the bracket challenge... I know I'm going to need it. IMO, this was one of the hardest years to pick.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 13, 2014, 01:17:42 PM
Good luck to everyone in the bracket challenge... I know I'm going to need it. IMO, this was one of the hardest years to pick.
Bracket busted.. Nichols over Mass-Boston 1-0, damn :o maybe next year
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 13, 2014, 12:13:29 PM
Snow on the ground at Calvin's campus ... Not to the level that USMNT played on in Denver earlier this year but it may make for some interesting field conditions for the Fri/Sat games. Here's a link to a campus webcam of the central part of campus - the field is just beyond the building/trees on the horizon:
http://www.calvin.edu/about/campus-location/webcams/
The Calvin pod has officially been moved to Hope for
both days. Calvin plays Rose-Hulman at 5pm tomorrow, OWU-PSU-Behrend at 7:30. Winners play Saturday at 5pm.
And I would assume that this move of venue (and most importantly field) is a real plus for OWU.
NCAA Division III Tournament First Round (at Morrisville State) Game postponed due to inclement weather - will be played Friday, Nov. 14 at 12 p.m.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 13, 2014, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 13, 2014, 12:13:29 PM
Snow on the ground at Calvin's campus ... Not to the level that USMNT played on in Denver earlier this year but it may make for some interesting field conditions for the Fri/Sat games. Here's a link to a campus webcam of the central part of campus - the field is just beyond the building/trees on the horizon:
http://www.calvin.edu/about/campus-location/webcams/
The Calvin pod has officially been moved to Hope for both days. Calvin plays Rose-Hulman at 5pm tomorrow, OWU-PSU-Behrend at 7:30. Winners play Saturday at 5pm.
Wow - major change in venue... From a narrow grass field to a wide field turf field.
I am disappointed my technical UMASS Boston side lost to a more physical Nichols College. I did not get to see it and am disappointed but hats off to the beacons on a great season.
That is ridiculous they moved those games. If that is all the snow on the ground that is nothing. 1995 National Championship Semi-Final at Williams was played in a blizzard and many November games in New England are played with some snow on the ground and snow falling. Nowadays everyone has to move the game to a turf field. Calvin worked all year for that home field advantage and the NCAA screws them
It happened to us in 2002 as well. Hosted the championship, but we got hit with a blizzard so they moved the game from Sandy to our turf field. Ended up losing to Messiah in the semis.
When St.Lawrence played Williams in 1998 for the national title or excuse me the opportunity to go to the Final Four it was an absolute blizzard but they kept that game on the grass. If you look at that live cam for Calvin it looks like 2 or maybe 3 inches on the ground nothing a little sunlight couldn't melt
I don't have any details (yet) on how bad Calvin's field is, but I'd agree it should be an advantage for OWU...in a hypothetical matchup with Calvin. However, it could give PSU-Behrend an advantage tomorrow, as Behrend plays its home games on turf.
Then again, OWU's home field is wide, and they benefit more from having a sure surface to play on the ground. Bigger fields should help the better team, especially if that's what it's used to. But is OWU better than Behrend? Granted, 2/3 losses for the Lions came against weak NCAC teams, but we'll see.
Interesting to note also that even though Calvin has an advantage from having played at least one game on Hope's field every year, OWU played Hope at Hope back in September. So this won't be a new venue for them. Hope's stadium is absolutely phenomenal for a D3 program too.
Interesting quirk of the NCAA scheduling. 2 north Jersey schools (Stevens and Montclair) which are only 20 minutes apart, travels all the way to Virginia to play each other.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 13, 2014, 11:31:19 PM
Interesting to note also that even though Calvin has an advantage from having played at least one game on Hope's field every year, OWU played Hope at Hope back in September. So this won't be a new venue for them. Hope's stadium is absolutely phenomenal for a D3 program too.
This change of venue for a dusting of snow is unfortunate for Calvin, for fans especially. I will point out, though, that Calvin plays better away from home according to Massey. I suppose that could be simply because it's easier to score lots of goals on a faster turf field.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2014, 09:07:58 PM
That is ridiculous they moved those games. If that is all the snow on the ground that is nothing. 1995 National Championship Semi-Final at Williams was played in a blizzard and many November games in New England are played with some snow on the ground and snow falling. Nowadays everyone has to move the game to a turf field. Calvin worked all year for that home field advantage and the NCAA screws them
Are we sure the NCAA forced the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams were agreeable to the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams even proposed the move? I have no idea, but I wasn't going to assume that this was solely on the NCAA.
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
I have questioned this myself a many times. I have no issues with religion of any sort, but which takes precedence? (This is not the NCCAA) I know some schools will not play because of their beliefs and this is a problem for the schools that are able to play and don't have to miss school to do so. Will the schools that do not want to play on sunday flat out refuse to play or is it just a "we would rather not"? Either way I think the NCAA should make a firm decision. I realize there are many more DIII schools than DI or DII that are faith based, but there still needs to be a clear rule. IMO classes missed should trump religious beliefs in this Association, if you don't agree with me that is your right, but than I think the school is question may want to think about changing conferences. If a team chooses not to play because of this belief it is their choice and their forfeiture of the game. I believe religion plays a very important role in peoples lives, but in this day and age everyone demands a definite line drawn and this issue unfortunately is no different. Maybe leave it up to the teams playing each other, if the protesting team wishes to not participate on the scheduled date it can be granted a reschedule by the other team or a forfeiture if the teams cannot come up with a amicable alternate date. I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this and their possible solutions, I just ask that it doesn't get to crazy and to try and keep the original question in mind.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 14, 2014, 10:24:41 AM
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
I have questioned this myself a many times. I have no issues with religion of any sort, but which takes precedence? (This is not the NCCAA) I know some schools will not play because of their beliefs and this is a problem for the schools that are able to play and don't have to miss school to do so. Will the schools that do not want to play on sunday flat out refuse to play or is it just a "we would rather not"? Either way I think the NCAA should make a firm decision. I realize there are many more DIII schools than DI or DII that are faith based, but there still needs to be a clear rule. IMO classes missed should trump religious beliefs in this Association, if you don't agree with me that is your right, but than I think the school is question may want to think about changing conferences. If a team chooses not to play because of this belief it is their choice and their forfeiture of the game. I believe religion plays a very important role in peoples lives, but in this day and age everyone demands a definite line drawn and this issue unfortunately is no different. Maybe leave it up to the teams playing each other, if the protesting team wishes to not participate on the scheduled date it can be granted a reschedule by the other team or a forfeiture if the teams cannot come up with a amicable alternate date. I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this and their possible solutions, I just ask that it doesn't get to crazy and to try and keep the original question in mind.
I'm very much in agreement with your views on this. I think telling college students that they must miss class in order to accommodate the religious practices of another team is a tricky statement to send. I'm curious to see what people think about this, or if anyone who has attended (or follows) a school that has a no-Sundays policy might be able to offer their opinion.
Certainly an interesting question.
I think there is merit to both sides of the coin. I know that a lot of the schools who can't or won't play on Sundays do participate in the NCCAA tournament as opposed to the NAIA or NCAA tournaments. The teams that Judson College had back in the late 90's were outstanding. Several Brazilian and British imports.
Not certain of the level in the NCCAA today, but I put those teams from Judson in the late 90's up against any of our top D3 teams today, including Messiah, and expect they would compete with no trouble.
Quote from: stlawus on November 13, 2014, 09:13:35 PM
It happened to us in 2002 as well. Hosted the championship, but we got hit with a blizzard so they moved the game from Sandy to our turf field. Ended up losing to Messiah in the semis.
Ugh - that was some real astroturf...
Let's be honest - these kids aren't focusing during a Friday class before a tourney game on Saturday/Sunday, so what difference does it make that they are missing one? Hell, half of the schools don't even schedule Friday classes anymore.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 14, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
Let's be honest - these kids aren't focusing during a Friday class before a tourney game on Saturday/Sunday, so what difference does it make that they are missing one? Hell, half of the schools don't even schedule Friday classes anymore.
And after some additional thought, I think I'd rather play two games at night (Fri/Sat) that will likely have more atmosphere than play my first game on Saturday (maybe at night) and then play a Sunday afternoon game (and if it is a sunday night game, you probably aren't going to class on Monday).
Additionally, playing on Friday night gives more of us d3 nerds the chance to see more games...
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 14, 2014, 12:20:24 PM
And after some additional thought, I think I'd rather play two games at night (Fri/Sat) that will likely have more atmosphere than play my first game on Saturday (maybe at night) and then play a Sunday afternoon game (and if it is a sunday night game, you probably aren't going to class on Monday).
I know OWU plays Friday/Saturday when hosting and I believe this is the reasoning. Also, OWU might be the only team that chooses to play
after the other game in the pod. Again, I think it goes straight to playing the night game with a bigger crowd. On the other side, if you're a school that doesn't turn out 1000+ for every game, the extra 2 hours rest is probably more beneficial.
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 14, 2014, 10:24:41 AM
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
I have questioned this myself a many times. I have no issues with religion of any sort, but which takes precedence? (This is not the NCCAA) I know some schools will not play because of their beliefs and this is a problem for the schools that are able to play and don't have to miss school to do so. Will the schools that do not want to play on sunday flat out refuse to play or is it just a "we would rather not"? Either way I think the NCAA should make a firm decision. I realize there are many more DIII schools than DI or DII that are faith based, but there still needs to be a clear rule. IMO classes missed should trump religious beliefs in this Association, if you don't agree with me that is your right, but than I think the school is question may want to think about changing conferences. If a team chooses not to play because of this belief it is their choice and their forfeiture of the game. I believe religion plays a very important role in peoples lives, but in this day and age everyone demands a definite line drawn and this issue unfortunately is no different. Maybe leave it up to the teams playing each other, if the protesting team wishes to not participate on the scheduled date it can be granted a reschedule by the other team or a forfeiture if the teams cannot come up with a amicable alternate date. I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this and their possible solutions, I just ask that it doesn't get to crazy and to try and keep the original question in mind.
I'm very much in agreement with your views on this. I think telling college students that they must miss class in order to accommodate the religious practices of another team is a tricky statement to send. I'm curious to see what people think about this, or if anyone who has attended (or follows) a school that has a no-Sundays policy might be able to offer their opinion.
How many early season tournaments run Fri/Sat and no one seems to complain about that? Conferences have no problem scheduling games during the week - many requiring long travel time and missed classes. And a Sunday evening tournament game can impact Monday classes just as much depending on the length of travel after the game. Where's the tolerance for different points of view? I don't think these schools ask to play on Saturdays because their "religion" demands it, but rather, they place a significant amount of value on Sundays for activities other than athletics.
Other activities on Sunday's such as?
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
Totally agree.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 14, 2014, 08:34:22 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2014, 09:07:58 PM
That is ridiculous they moved those games. If that is all the snow on the ground that is nothing. 1995 National Championship Semi-Final at Williams was played in a blizzard and many November games in New England are played with some snow on the ground and snow falling. Nowadays everyone has to move the game to a turf field. Calvin worked all year for that home field advantage and the NCAA screws them
Are we sure the NCAA forced the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams were agreeable to the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams even proposed the move? I have no idea, but I wasn't going to assume that this was solely on the NCAA.
Well I did not say it was definite but implied it was probable. Every pod has a NCAA representative and they are the go to guys for operations. Ultimately these representatives make the final call. A coach like Jay Martin knows all to well about being a NCAA rep and has all kinds of connections with these guys being in the business for almost 40 years. I am sure in this part of the country he is revered and if he says the field is unplayable, the field is unplayable. I am not saying this is what happened but something to think about.
You really think a visiting team's coach made the call on where to play the game? That doesn't make too much sense to me.
I did not say he made the call.........I said he has the influence to possibly influence the decision. I did not say it happened, I was just throwing it out there as I have heard of these things happening before.
Chalk up another loss for the bracket pool....
King's had three chances to end it, but failed to convert in PKs.
Remember, OWU already played on Calvin's field this year ... and lost. So if he saw an opportunity to play on a larger space with a more consistent surface, it should not be a surprise if he at least raised the issue. Again, not saying he did, but it certainly is a plausible scenario. And I'm sure Calvin was reluctant to give up a home game to go play at their arch-rival's field
I totally agree that is why I bring this up. Why would Calvin want to switch sites under any circumstance? Coaches are very reluctant to do this. Also, the NCAA rep thing I brought up earlier makes me believe that Calvin did not want to switch.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2014, 02:01:40 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 14, 2014, 08:34:22 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2014, 09:07:58 PM
That is ridiculous they moved those games. If that is all the snow on the ground that is nothing. 1995 National Championship Semi-Final at Williams was played in a blizzard and many November games in New England are played with some snow on the ground and snow falling. Nowadays everyone has to move the game to a turf field. Calvin worked all year for that home field advantage and the NCAA screws them
Are we sure the NCAA forced the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams were agreeable to the move? Is it possible that Calvin and the other teams even proposed the move? I have no idea, but I wasn't going to assume that this was solely on the NCAA.
Well I did not say it was definite but implied it was probable. Every pod has a NCAA representative and they are the go to guys for operations. Ultimately these representatives make the final call. A coach like Jay Martin knows all to well about being a NCAA rep and has all kinds of connections with these guys being in the business for almost 40 years. I am sure in this part of the country he is revered and if he says the field is unplayable, the field is unplayable. I am not saying this is what happened but something to think about.
I was responding to the fairly definitive "the NCAA screws them", not "it seems the NCAA may have screwed them." So I wondered if someone knew how it went down and figured I'd ask. I don't doubt the possibility of the scenario you paint, but it's always better to move from speculation to fact if possible. And another possibility that had crossed my mind was that if the field really was deemed unplayable, Calvin may have preferred to play at Hope over delaying one day and having to host (and hopefully play) on Sunday.
Ok I guess I should have said the NCAA possibly screwed them . However. I have to disagree with you on your point of Calvin choosing to play at Hope. I do not believe any coach would want to move the site off campus to another neutral campus 1 hour away. When schools do not have an alternative turf field to play on the NCAA rep would step in and say we have to move this game. I was just suggesting that OWU or maybe another team might have influenced the "unplayable" angle. I would want any example in the last 20 years where a coach would purposely want to move the game to another site. Looking at the live cam that game could be played right now if need be on that field.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 14, 2014, 01:27:25 PM
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 14, 2014, 10:24:41 AM
Quote from: swibbles on November 14, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
This is more of a general question, but why does the NCAA accommodate schools that do not want to play on Sundays. Making kids skip school so other kids don't have to skip church is an interesting precedent for the NCAA to set.
I have questioned this myself a many times. I have no issues with religion of any sort, but which takes precedence? (This is not the NCCAA) I know some schools will not play because of their beliefs and this is a problem for the schools that are able to play and don't have to miss school to do so. Will the schools that do not want to play on sunday flat out refuse to play or is it just a "we would rather not"? Either way I think the NCAA should make a firm decision. I realize there are many more DIII schools than DI or DII that are faith based, but there still needs to be a clear rule. IMO classes missed should trump religious beliefs in this Association, if you don't agree with me that is your right, but than I think the school is question may want to think about changing conferences. If a team chooses not to play because of this belief it is their choice and their forfeiture of the game. I believe religion plays a very important role in peoples lives, but in this day and age everyone demands a definite line drawn and this issue unfortunately is no different. Maybe leave it up to the teams playing each other, if the protesting team wishes to not participate on the scheduled date it can be granted a reschedule by the other team or a forfeiture if the teams cannot come up with a amicable alternate date. I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this and their possible solutions, I just ask that it doesn't get to crazy and to try and keep the original question in mind.
I'm very much in agreement with your views on this. I think telling college students that they must miss class in order to accommodate the religious practices of another team is a tricky statement to send. I'm curious to see what people think about this, or if anyone who has attended (or follows) a school that has a no-Sundays policy might be able to offer their opinion.
How many early season tournaments run Fri/Sat and no one seems to complain about that? Conferences have no problem scheduling games during the week - many requiring long travel time and missed classes. And a Sunday evening tournament game can impact Monday classes just as much depending on the length of travel after the game. Where's the tolerance for different points of view? I don't think these schools ask to play on Saturdays because their "religion" demands it, but rather, they place a significant amount of value on Sundays for activities other than athletics.
I don't see anyone being intolerant? I believe that no one complains about early season tournaments on Fri/Sat and the missing of classes because it is scheduled that way by a non faith based association that doesn't use religion as a reason for missing games or classes, which is the whole point to this discussion. This is just a basic question as to why or if true why does the NCAA make schedule changes for "religious reasons". You have to look at both sides instead of playing the "religious discrimination card". Ultra sensitivity to issues is often the catalyst that fuels emotionally irrational decisions that end up displacing the majority for fear of disrupting the un silent minority. If this was a Christian based Association and the "sunday rule" was written and in place than fine, but where and how does the decision get made as to who succumbs to the pressures of for lack of a better term "religious correctness".
I am not anti church or anti religion, my entire reason for elaborating on this subject was to get different opinions and find out who or what decides the outcome of this situation when it arises and why a non faith based athletic association would genuflect to the religious schools desires.
I'm detecting some ultra sensitivity here. ;) Is your objection because the motivation for preferring not to play on a Sunday is driven by someone's religion? Would you object less (or not at all) if the reason was motivated by something else? And vice versa ... why would a faith based school genuflect to the non faith based athletic associations desires?
I personally do not mind the religious exemption as long as it does not turn into an advantage for whatever reason
Just realized that the coach of the team that Messiah plays this weekend, King's College, is yet another former Falcon player: Mark Bassett (http://departments.kings.edu/athletics/men/soccer/coaches.htm). I knew the name was familiar. I think he played under both Dave Brandt and his predecessor, the late Layton Shoemaker.
I still have no information about Danny Brandt's absence from the lineup in recent games. I assume an injury that must be fairly serious, but I don't know any specifics. Does anyone else out there have information?
Let me quickly correct my own post a moment ago. Bassett is the coach at King's, but King's lost to Morrisville so they won't be playing the Falcons. Here's why I got confused: if you go here http://www.gomessiah.com/news/2014/11/12/MSOC_1112142419.aspx you see where Bassett's listed, without pointing out that King's is already out. I wrote the post after seeing a familiar name I hadn't expected to see, but it's a mistake influenced by the college's own web page in this case. :)
And, now it's fixed. That was fast. Someone from their athletic department must be reading this board this afternoon. The information about Bassett was embedded in the top part of the article until a moment ago...
For over half a century the NCAA has had formal legislation that requires championship schedules to be adjusted to accommodate schools that have rules against Sunday competition. The first such rule was imposed by the NCAA's executive committee in 1961 and was adopted by the NCAA membership at large two years later. It's informally called "the BYU rule," since it was adopted in response to Brigham Young's being forced to vacate College World Series opportunities a couple of times in the late '50s because of the school's refusal to participate in Sunday contests.
The "BYU rule" was modified in 1999 to require all sports to modify championship schedules to accommodate all schools that have a "written policy against competition on a particular day for religious reasons." (NCAA Bylaws, art. 31.1.4.1) Attempts to overturn the BYU rule around that time were countered by a widespread lobbying effort of NCAA member institutions of both secular and sectarian stripe.
Does the provision to allow the Fri/Sat option ALSO apply to the sectionals and final four? I don't recall Fri/Sat set-ups for either and the dates on the bracket for later rounds do not suggest Fri/Sat as an option. If this is correct, how could a school with a faith-based rule to not play on Sundays then do so in later rounds, or does that indicated 'preference' as opposed to 'requirement'???
I thought since 2004 when the Final 4 left for neutral sites it has always been Friday and Saturday
The religious accommodation rule is what it is, NCACNE. My understanding is that the championships committee would try to "work with" (i.e., strongly attempt to persuade) a member school that exercises a no-Sundays policy (e.g., Calvin, Wheaton IL) in order to make the schedule work without throwing the tournament into turmoil and costing everybody a lot of money -- money, incidentally, that is not earned back by this tournament but which is a product of D3's being the recipient of D1 football and men's basketball tournament revenue.
But the religious accommodation rule is actually pretty stringent in terms of which schools are qualified to invoke it. Even evangelical Christian schools that frown upon Sunday play -- and please note that not all of them do (North Park, for instance, plays on Sundays) -- may find themselves outside of the various requirements that the NCAA put into effect in order for a school to invoke the religious accommodation rule. This policy statement by Messiah is a good example of what I'm talking about. (http://www.messiah.edu/athletics/pages/docs/sunday-play.pdf)
back to the Calvin pod at Hope. Why would these 4 teams still be playing at night in this weather? It looks to be below freezing out there and most likely would have been a little warmer with some sun out. The night game is for your home fans for the most part and since there really are not many home fans here why bother with the night games?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2014, 05:29:41 PM
back to the Calvin pod at Hope. Why would these 4 teams still be playing at night in this weather? It looks to be below freezing out there and most likely would have been a little warmer with some sun out. The night game is for your home fans for the most part and since there really are not many home fans here why bother with the night games?
That's a great question ... was wondering myself as I ponder heading to Holland, MI Saturday to watch the game in the frigid weather. Would have been nice to play it early afternoon. Calvin may still get a decent turnout as Hope is not that far away.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 14, 2014, 05:22:00 PM
The religious accommodation rule is what it is, NCACNE. My understanding is that the championships committee would try to "work with" (i.e., strongly attempt to persuade) a member school that exercises a no-Sundays policy (e.g., Calvin, Wheaton IL) in order to make the schedule work without throwing the tournament into turmoil and costing everybody a lot of money -- money, incidentally, that is not earned back by this tournament but which is a product of D3's being the recipient of D1 football and men's basketball tournament revenue.
But the religious accommodation rule is actually pretty stringent in terms of which schools are qualified to invoke it. Even evangelical Christian schools that frown upon Sunday play -- and please note that not all of them do (North Park, for instance, plays on Sundays) -- may find themselves outside of the various requirements that the NCAA put into effect in order for a school to invoke the religious accommodation rule. This policy statement by Messiah is a good example of what I'm talking about. (http://www.messiah.edu/athletics/pages/docs/sunday-play.pdf)
Wow - I like what Messiah put together ... well thought out and acknowledges both sides of the issue as well as the fact that they had already set a precedent about playing on Sundays. I think it is a good resolution without discounting the values/beliefs of other institutions that may not agree
Calvin stuck in a tough one with Rose-Hulman, 0-0 at half. R-H looks better than they did last year against OWU - Calvin just saved one off the line at the end of the half.
So have any sectionals been on Fri/Sat in recent years or not?
Btw, regardless of how decision was made to move pod to Hope, seems pretty evident it was the right call. The conditions are tough enough to not have a decent playing surface.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
So have any sectionals been on Fri/Sat in recent years or not?
Yes . . . every sectional which has featured either Calvin or Wheaton (IL) have been played on FRI and SAT. All other sectionals have been played on SAT and SUN.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:25:00 PM
Btw, regardless of how decision was made to move pod to Hope, seems pretty evident it was the right call. The conditions are tough enough to not have a decent playing surface.
See if Calvin base agrees with you..They are in a tight one with a team they should be beating
Mr.Right, the better field totally favors Calvin in this one.....against OWU not so much.
So if Wheaton or Calvin are in Final 4 it will be Fri/Sat?
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 14, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
So have any sectionals been on Fri/Sat in recent years or not?
Yes . . . every sectional which has featured either Calvin or Wheaton (IL) have been played on FRI and SAT. All other sectionals have been played on SAT and SUN.
I know I'm beating a dead horse but OWU has done it and there's no religious affiliation. The 2011 sectional was Friday/Saturday. But Hope was in that sectional so maybe that was the reason.
And Calvin vs. R-H is in overtime.
soon to be PK's and a possible easy road for OWU to the elite 8
nice deserving PK win for Calvin..
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:47:51 PM
Mr.Right, the better field totally favors Calvin in this one.....against OWU not so much.
So if Wheaton or Calvin are in Final 4 it will be Fri/Sat?
Final four has always been Fri/Sat for as far back as I can remember ...I think they need to set those dates months if not years in advance
Emory v Berry very even game and getting chippy as Berry looking for a goal to get level
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 14, 2014, 06:51:33 PM
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 14, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
So have any sectionals been on Fri/Sat in recent years or not?
Yes . . . every sectional which has featured either Calvin or Wheaton (IL) have been played on FRI and SAT. All other sectionals have been played on SAT and SUN.
I know I'm beating a dead horse but OWU has done it and there's no religious affiliation. The 2011 sectional was Friday/Saturday. But Hope was in that sectional so maybe that was the reason.
That sectional was probably played on FRI/SAT because of Hope. I am not familiar with their Sunday policy as they are not as frequent a tournament team as Calvin and Wheaton. It was not because of Ohio Wesleyan, however. They played Washington that year in the 2nd round on a Sunday and played Rose-Hulman last year on a Sunday. So it must be Hope that has the no-Sunday restriction.
Berry ties it up at Emory with just over two minutes left to go off a corner kick. Teams now headed to OT.
Berry completes the comeback and they looked the better side for the 2nd half. Missed the goal as I was doing something else..Any details??
UAA starting off shaky again...last guy we could be 1-1 on upset picks...
Corner kick. Ball went far post, header uncontested. Poor marking, really.
Poor defending on set pieces has become a real theme this year in most regions. Ball watching and zoning do not help either
Looked like Emory was content to sit back and defend a bit too much over the final 20 minutes. However, I thought Berry was fortunate to get away with a couple late fouls under a minute to go that might've given Emory a dangerous free kick with time winding down. Should be a fun OT!
Berry have the more dangerous chances and really should of finished Emory off halfway thru the OT. Does Emory even know their season is on the line tonight? They look disinterested
They really do. Couldn't believe it when I saw that Berry player run through their midfield and defense uncontested. Keeper made a great save on that to (momentarily) save their bacon.
I am sorry but Emory might pull this off but they look anemic offensively. The SOS for these UAA teams look to be inflated by maybe .050 points.
Sherlock this game has PK's written all over it.
Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Emory has picked it up quite a bit in the last few minutes, but I don't see anyone breaking through. And just as I'm typing that, I hear screaming - what happened????
Well if there was ever any doubt about SOS inflation for the UAA...
berry finished a great chance and win it at Emory in 2 OT...nice play on the end line to keep the ball alive and cross thru the box to a great finish and its curtains for Emory. Upset picked and UAA 0-1-0 already.
Quote from: Sherlock Holmes on November 14, 2014, 08:25:24 PM
Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Emory has picked it up quite a bit in the last few minutes, but I don't see anyone breaking through. And just as I'm typing that, I hear screaming - what happened????
Goal by Zak Wallingford (Berry) with about 2:30 left in OT2 (assist by Christian Fulbright). Emory couldn't clear it from their 18 and Berry took advantage. Berry moves on. Well done Chuck!
And, conversely, the SAA and ODAC are either underrated or just plain ignored. The dynamics of the SAA beating each other mirrors the UAA and NESCAC. Those are some pretty good teams. Berry played them straight up and really outplayed them. Berry deserving of the win based on the last 35 minutes I watched.
As I think I noted a couple of days ago, Emory had 2 goals in the their last six games with 4 scoreless games. And only managed 1 goal in about 108 minutes tonight.
Calvin's best win of the season was in the opening game with OWU, at home, coming from behind to win 2-1 in OT. Otherwise, their best wins jump down to Hope and Kzoo.
Chuck??? Yea that was a nice play on the end line by Christian Fulbright and a very tight finish by Wallingford as ge roofed it and he had to beat two Emory defenders who were blocking it and the keeper.
Also a very composed finish. I was sure he was going to hit that first time- nice job settling, picking his spot, and rifling it through traffic. Well deserved and congrats Berry!
And Bloecher scores from 30 yards out. Calvin will have to play a lot better or it will be a rout.
Your right NCAC..You also filled us in on Emory's lack of scoring. I had seen them twice on video feed this year at NYU and Brandeis. There were maybe 7-8 bubble teams who were more deserving. Incidentally,Emory has a great video feed and no announcers and I really enjoyed that stream.
Too early to say it out loud, but already thinking: "New tournament, same old UAA."
Yes. How do they do it year in and year out. My guess is they have a small league schedule get credited with inflated SOS and then schedule 2 or 3 in region tough match ups and then maybe 6 or 7 cupcakes and they will be around .610 SOS.. NYU really screws up scheduling all those skyline and CCNY games...Impressive for NYU to actually be hovering around .500 SOS.
ahh i c ....old rock and roller before Elvis right? im young man its before my time but give me some credit
that 2nd goal for Penn St Berk was really weak defending by OWU. More ball watching and set piece horror shows. A player can lose his concentration for a second and your season can end. I feel some kids have less focus these days
continuing theme of OT..OWU looks to be in control but actually Penn St Berk have had 2 or 3 legitimate chances to win this
Man, another OT. I wonder if Christian Shirk could tell me what the record is for most OT games in a tournament/round :). I know it's way early, but this is a pretty frenetic pace we've started off at.
By the way, it's Behrend not Berks. There is a PSU-Berks (their women are in the tournament), but it's PSU-Behrend against OWU.
I've just caught bits and pieces, but I did see a OWU turnover in their defensive 1/3 that resulted in a 20-yd shot by PSU-Behrend that just missed the upper-right corner of the goal. Could have been the game. Win or lose, OWU continues there inconsistent season.
Wow. What a play there. OWU pulls it off with a rocket off the crossbar and across the line before bouncing out. Head ref didn't appear to give it, seemed like the call came from the AR. What a way to finish.
Where would I be without you correcting me tonight. It's all good btw exactly how many Penn State schools are there?
Damn I missed the GW...someone go into detail for me? like build up to goal
Also it's not a turnover but a giveaway in soccer
PS played a ball back to keeper who had to come out to top of box to clear. GK Mis-kicked it and it landed near OWU player who controlled it and took a shot from 35 yards out as GK scrambled back to goal. Ball hit underside of crossbar and down - apparently just over the line - and out
This tournament so far has been off the charts. Almost every game to PKs or OT. And we're only in the 1st round, and tomorrow is really the first full slate of games. Wow. Now I have no clue who is going to win between Calvin and OWU. OWU had a chance to really put some doubt in Calvin's mind but OWU's struggle to win tonight may give them some belief. Will be a more even game for sure, and possibly high scoring.
And we still got a nightcap brewing. Last I checked still 0-0 in 2nd half down in Atlanta.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 14, 2014, 04:22:20 PM
I'm detecting some ultra sensitivity here. ;) Is your objection because the motivation for preferring not to play on a Sunday is driven by someone's religion? Would you object less (or not at all) if the reason was motivated by something else? And vice versa ... why would a faith based school genuflect to the non faith based athletic associations desires?
I am neither sensitive nor objecting. I am more looking for answers or explanations as to who or what makes yhe decisions. I didn't create the question, I just decided to run with it because I have wondered for years about this. I would definitely question less if it was a non religious based reason, that's the whole point of the discussion. Should religious reasons have more weight for postponing a game than another reason? My rebuttal to your last question would simply be for the fact that the non faith based athletic associations is in complete control of the participating schools athletic contests and if the sole reason for wanting games rescheduled is because of religious beliefs and that is affecting the majority of schools that are non faith based then maybe this particular association is the wrong place to be (NCAA V NCCAA). I have to finish by saying that I am not trying to stir the pot as much as I am playing devil's advocate ( no pun intended ;D). I like hearing people's views and thoughts on topics rarely discussed.
Mr. Right, I think there's 19 PSU satellite schools, or at least something very close to that.
Wow..ton of schools...damn i wish i saw that GW goal. cloudy judgments by GK and lazily misjudging back passes drive me bonkers...now down to Atlanta for a great finish to a great day..Parity is king and makes for entertaining and exciting games
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 14, 2014, 04:55:34 PM
For over half a century the NCAA has had formal legislation that requires championship schedules to be adjusted to accommodate schools that have rules against Sunday competition. The first such rule was imposed by the NCAA's executive committee in 1961 and was adopted by the NCAA membership at large two years later. It's informally called "the BYU rule," since it was adopted in response to Brigham Young's being forced to vacate College World Series opportunities a couple of times in the late '50s because of the school's refusal to participate in Sunday contests.
The "BYU rule" was modified in 1999 to require all sports to modify championship schedules to accommodate all schools that have a "written policy against competition on a particular day for religious reasons." (NCAA Bylaws, art. 31.1.4.1) Attempts to overturn the BYU rule around that time were countered by a widespread lobbying effort of NCAA member institutions of both secular and sectarian stripe.
Thanks for giving us a definitive answer Greg, that's exactly what I was looking for. I still like hearing people's personal views on the situation.
Game going on now represents another example of the real Southern schools being dissed. Covenant is with NC Wesleyan, Greensboro, and Methodist, right? Do they suffer because the "South Atlantic" has become dominated in representation and notoriety by the "Mid-Atlantic" portion of the South Atlantic? PA/NJ, New England, New York state, and the Midwest dominate the D3 soccer landscape. Of course the NWC, Whitworth's conference, doesn't get any love either. And without knowing all the details, I wonder if SOS becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 14, 2014, 10:30:23 PMShould religious reasons have more weight for postponing a game than another reason?
That's a false dichotomy. When has there ever been a school that has formally requested to play an NCAA tournament contest on a Sunday for reasons intrinsic to the school's mission? In other words, there's no countervailing reason for requiring Sunday contests that's of the same nature as the religious-accommodation reason for
not requiring them. All that's left are dollars-and-cents arguments, and the NCAA has (rightly, IMHO) decided that the beliefs and values of its member institutions outweigh them, because monetary issues can be accommodated within the playoff structure with enough foresight and advance planning.
Also, it's not as though nobody's ever postponed a playoff contest for a non-religious reason before.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 14, 2014, 10:30:23 PMMy rebuttal to your last question would simply be for the fact that the non faith based athletic associations is in complete control of the participating schools athletic contests and if the sole reason for wanting games rescheduled is because of religious beliefs and that is affecting the majority of schools that are non faith based then maybe this particular association is the wrong place to be (NCAA V NCCAA).
Why? Why should one set of beliefs be penalized while others are not? From what I've read, this was the guiding principle behind a lot of administrators from schools that did
not seek the Sunday exemption lining up with those that do when the NCAA re-examined the issue a decade and a half ago. It's less about a set of specific beliefs than it is about principles of fairness, equity, and respect for others.
I gotta say Whitworth is legit and should get out of this pod but Covenant is not a very good team and since I have been watching have been getting dominated. However they just had a cracker of a shot to tie the game but just missed. Southern schools have it a bit easier than schools in the west as west schools have no option but to play each other twice in conference or travel great distances to get decent out of conference schedules. I feel for a UC Santa Cruz who have no conference and play maybe a quarter of their games against non D3's. They do get the best of both worlds playing some teams in Redlands league and Whitworth's league.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 14, 2014, 06:51:33 PM
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 14, 2014, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
So have any sectionals been on Fri/Sat in recent years or not?
Yes . . . every sectional which has featured either Calvin or Wheaton (IL) have been played on FRI and SAT. All other sectionals have been played on SAT and SUN.
I know I'm beating a dead horse but OWU has done it and there's no religious affiliation.
Actually, Ohio Wesleyan University
does have a religious affiliation. It has an ongoing historical attachment to the United Methodist Church. But from what I've been able to gather in reading about OWU, it's a very loose affiliation (as is true nowadays of a lot of UMC-affiliated schools) that doesn't seem to affect school policy very much, if at all. And even if it did, the United Methodists don't really seem to be sticklers about things such as playing sports on Sunday.
On this Sunday thing, let me say this. There certainly is nothing inherently better about Sat/Sun vs Fri/Sat. The missing classes argument probably has a bit of merit but not a ton. For most schools we are talking about one weekend or maybe two, so maybe one or two classes that otherwise might not be missed. Let's be honest. A lot of the kids probably like the idea of missing another day of classes, although it is true that at this time of the year we are getting closer to the end of semesters and some kids probably are stressed about the impact on their GPAs. The issue really only sticks out because of the religious aspect and the handful of high profile faith-based schools that many of us heathens have trouble getting our heads around. I'll be completely honest and tell you the only reason it bothers me....it's makes traveling for the tournament more difficult for parents, and some of us probably have to burn an extra vacation or personal day. In the big picture, that's not a big deal, but I think some of us tend to have knee-jerk reaction when a few schools can seem to dictate how things play out. I didn't realize that the final four always is a Fri/Sat deal, and now of course I'm wondering why that is. It is related to issue of faith-based schools, or does that custom originate from some other reasoning?
Adding another hypothetical to the mix, what would happen if Yeshiva were to make the tournament? Would they make a Friday/Sunday schedule for the pod to which they were assigned? The Skyline conference appears to have worked it out so that Yeshiva plays no Saturday conference games (although the other teams in the conference, of course, do play plenty of Saturday games).
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2014, 10:19:52 PM
Also it's not a turnover but a giveaway in soccer
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*
Editor's note: remainder of post redacted as all that really needed saying had already been said.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 11:18:49 PMThe issue really only sticks out because of the religious aspect and the handful of high profile faith-based schools that many of us heathens have trouble getting our heads around. I'll be completely honest and tell you the only reason it bothers me....it's makes traveling for the tournament more difficult for parents, and some of us probably have to burn an extra vacation or personal day. In the big picture, that's not a big deal, but I think some of us tend to have knee-jerk reaction when a few schools can seem to dictate how things play out.
I appreciate your candor in disclosing the reasons behind your sentiment. As for the idea that "a few schools can seem to dictate how things play out," well, that's why I've tried to lay out as much of the history behind the religious-accommodation rule as I could learn, in order to make it clear that it's
not a matter of a few schools dictating policy to everyone else. It's more broad-based than that, and, as I said earlier, the idea behind the accommodation has more to do with principles of fairness, equity, and respect for others than it does upon any specific faith-based institutional policy.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 14, 2014, 11:18:49 PMI didn't realize that the final four always is a Fri/Sat deal, and now of course I'm wondering why that is. It is related to issue of faith-based schools, or does that custom originate from some other reasoning?
Good question. That, I don't know. I
do know that the two D3 basketball tournaments have always had a Friday/Saturday Final Four.
Quote from: Ommadawn on November 14, 2014, 11:50:25 PMAdding another hypothetical to the mix, what would happen if Yeshiva were to make the tournament? Would they make a Friday/Sunday schedule for the pod to which they were assigned?
The accommodation rule covers everybody, so, yes, Yeshiva would have to be accommodated as well. But it wouldn't necessarily be a Friday/Sunday schedule. The sabbath goes from sundown Friday through sundown Saturday, so you obviously couldn't schedule a tournament soccer match for Yeshiva on a Friday unless it was for early in the afternoon. On the other hand, you
could schedule a Yeshiva match for a Saturday evening.
Yeshiva versus Calvin, or Yeshiva versus Wheaton (IL), would be a real headache. ;)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2014, 11:06:47 PM
I gotta say Whitworth is legit and should get out of this pod but Covenant is not a very good team and since I have been watching have been getting dominated. However they just had a cracker of a shot to tie the game but just missed. Southern schools have it a bit easier than schools in the west as west schools have no option but to play each other twice in conference or travel great distances to get decent out of conference schedules. I feel for a UC Santa Cruz who have no conference and play maybe a quarter of their games against non D3's. They do get the best of both worlds playing some teams in Redlands league and Whitworth's league.
I watched the last 20 minutes of this game and I agree 100%. Whitworth looks very tough. Strung together some impressive passes and pepoered Covenant up until Whitworth scored. Covenant did have some great shots cleared off the line twice near the end of the game, but for the majority of this one it was all Whitworth.
A very intriguing tournament thus far. Seven games played with six of them being decided by a single goal or less (PKs). Of the five games played yesterday, four went into OT; the only exception -- and evenly played match between Whitworth and Covenant -- nearly went into OT (the Whitworth goal came with a little more than 6 minutes of regulation time). We have 22 first round and 2 second round games today. Will these games be as close as those from yesterday? To quote Oscar Wilde, "The suspense is terrible, I hope it will last."
30 degrees. Brilliant sunshine here in Gambier,Ohio. As Ernie Banks would say - "Let's play two!"
Quote from: Domino1195 link=topic=8213.msg1627744em play#emmsg1627744 date=1416065824
30 degrees. Brilliant sunshine here in Gambier,Ohio. As Ernie Banks would say - "Let's play two!"
Seen this CR several times this year - let's 'em play - few fouls. In the Cap OWU I think he called 10 fouls against both sides all game.
what game to watch at 11am? Babson and RNU might be a defensive bore, SLU and Muhlenberg games should be blowouts. I think Kenyon v Heidleberg could be interesting. 2-1 Kenyon win back in September with Kenyon out shooting them 26-10. Sounds like it could be a half field scrimmage with Hberg parkin the bus? I am just guessing as I have never seen them play. That will be the game I watch and flip it over to RNU v Babson.
just noticed Heidleberg went to 10 men at the 55 minute mark last game they played with Kenyon. This game could be a close one
So far RUN controlling possession but they do not look as crisp on grass. This is also Babson's grass where they leave it high and it slows the opposition down a bit.
Babson RU-N is a snoozefest so far...
yes a decent game as both teams are good not great. Babson has had better chances but RUN owns possession. Neither team have a great scoring threat as this one could end 1-0 or in PK's.
The other favorites are beating up on the very weak AQ's at the half.
Don't know if you can hear the Kenyon students counting possession time for Berg. A new taunt for me.
St. Lawrence steamrolling SUNY-Purchase as could have been expected. What is interesting is that live stats says that three of their five goal-scorers tallied their first goal of the season.
RUN and Babson game starting to heat up as tempers are flaring. RUN getting more physical and chippy which is giving the game some life for a neutral. RUN has missed two sitters and are really high pressing Babson's backs.
RNU breaks thru on a nice finish. Babson is hosting the pod but RNU is the home team and I am not sure why
Rutgers Camden up 1.0 on NYU... outshooting them 8 to 1 in the first 20 min...
RUN beats Babson 2-0 and they deserved to win. Their one weak spot to me is their GK. They will not go far if he continues to charge out of his net and make poor decisions. For now they can sleep well and should have a very good battle against SUNY Cortland tomorrow for a Sweet 16 berth
Live Table
UAA- 0-1-0
Newmac- 1-1-0
Ok now for Tufts v Dickinson...Let's hope for decent live stream
SLU could have easily won 15-0. Durocher put in the third string at 7-0 and kept everyone from going to goal. Possession was at least 90-10.
What league is SUNY Purchase in? Is that Sage's league? That is absolutely awful. That should give SLU a nice advantage over Amherst if they rested all their straters for most of the game. On the flip side it could hurt them as well. I remember in 2010 when Williams defeated Elms 9-1 in the first round and then were very flat the next day and lost in the 2nd round to Babson 2-1.
Tufts dominating Dickinson halfway thru the first half but cannot finish. I am disappointed in Dickinson as they do not have a quality shot on net yet and have not been able to create much. This game has some goals in it I am convinced
Did anyone catch the Kenyon-Heidelberg game? Was it a good one? I couldn't get the stream to work and now I can't get the Thomas More-North Park stream to work either.
I can only get Live Stats from the North Park - Thomas More game. Loras just went up 1-0 on Westminster. Westminster answered with a shot off the crossbar 67'.
The Kenyon stream worked fine for me. I was just checking in on the game here and there so I cannot give you a report.
I see Thomas More ahead of North Park 1-0. I called that upset as I thought North Park was not very good when I saw them. Obviously, there is a lot of time left. Also, Catholic and Coast Guard in the most exciting match of the day 0-0 and 4-1 in shots Catholic. PK's in that one I am sue and Coast Guard does not want to see Catholic in PK's as their field player / goalie is very very good.
Tufts should beat Dickinson but you never know as the 2nd half is ready to start. Dickinson is athletic and big in the back but they do not have anything really creative and their first touch is horrible. Their backs whack everything
Tufts goes up 1-0 on a nice header off a cross from the end line. Wide open header as Dickinson was caught sleeping
Dickinson ties it up on a broken play and bad defending. Theme of this tournament
You make a good point that resting starters could be detrimental. Although Durocher rotated at least 1 starter on the field throughout the 2nd half to keep them fresh. Serpone was up in the stands sitting next to me taking notes, but he wasn't watching our normal formation or game plan. Should be a good matchup tomorrow, barring Amherst holding on to their lead which looks to be pretty likely.
1-1 against the run of play, an awful miscue at the back for the Jumbos
WOW...great goal and finish by Gus Santos....SICK SPEED
Suggest watching Amherst SLU game on MUTE tomorrow
Typical antics from the Amherst bench. Very hard to respect that program past their intrinsic results. I really hope we go out tomorrow and silence them quickly.
haha do not let Amherst bench get to you. Think of it like a bird chirping.
Not a very convincing performance from Amherst. They always play well against though, so we'll just have to wait and see.
Live Table:
UAA: 0-1-0
Newmac: 1-2-0
Nescac: 2-0-0
Yea the Newmac deserved 2 At-large bids. Let's see if the UAA can bounce back tonight
Amherst will never look pretty or convincing but they grind man. They will fight and grind and rub the beauty out of the game until they win.....or until they face Williams
Oh this is a must view..Wartburg v MSOE playing in a blizzard on a snow packed field....love this
Watching that myself, Mr. Right.
And this is how former NFL stars feel watching the playoffs!!!
Enjoy the show boyz. Is this not Christmas before Christmas?
Ofcoarse when your alma mater is competing it is pins and needles, but this is fun!
Just watched a fantastic game. Thomas More played harder than any team I've seen this year.
Played their butts off for 105 minutes. Outshot a technically superior North Park 29 to 10. #6 for Thomas More is a great player who just played his heart out. Incredible team spirit and some VERY lively fans. North Park took some time to get into the match but they also played very hard. They had several very talented players.
Calvin 1-0 on legit PK. Can't believe they are possessing so well against OWU
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 15, 2014, 05:22:55 PM
Calvin 1-0 on legit PK. Can't believe they are possessing so well against OWU
I would have disagreed with you - looked like the classic "dribble out of bounds and fall over" play - but OWU didn't complain at all so I think he must have got him.
I'm at the game - it was legit ... No arguments from fans or OWU bench either. Defender was beat and took him down ... Only question was if it was in the box
Gotcha. Since you're there - any idea what just happened with the OWU player who's down?
Looked he took a kick in the shin or ankle ... Walked off gingerly but should be back
OWU playing much better and with more energy - feels like a goal is coming for them
GAC with the 1-0 win over Dominican. Big match against the DuHawks tomorrow. Thanks for the tickets kickin!
Watched the end of the GAC-Dominican game as I watch Wheaton-UWW. GAC looked like the better side from the limited minutes I saw. Decent goal from the Gusties to take the win. It looks like they should give the Duhawks some fits tomorrow!
Wheaton up 1-0 at half off a corner. Free header from Stephen Golz at the six yard box as it looked like a Warhawk defender lost their mark. But it's been a very even game judging by the video. Should be a very interesting second half.
OWU-Calvin looks pretty even so far aside from the penalty. OWU with more shots, but Calvin is isolating OWU's young outside backs and taking a little advantage of them - including on the PK. Ref is calling the game a little tight, as it doesn't seem overly physical but he's already called 16 fouls.
GAC should feel lucky to win. They ran in circles for the first 20 minutes and were lucky not to concede. They then went to lower pressure which neutralized Dominican's superior skill. Dominican ran out of ideas and started lumping the ball in the middle before half. I'm not sure why they didn't sort that out in the locker room but the came out in the second half with few new ideas. They pressured but were caught on a counter with a nicely timed header. This was the most entertaining game so far.
That was a sure goal for OWU that the defender saved
F&M ahead but Looking just average.
Can't say I agree with that PK call for OWU but 1-1 is probably a fair score regardless
Wheaton takes over in the 2nd half to ride to a 3-0 win. A goal 90 seconds into the second half took the wind out of UWW's sails and it was all Wheaton from then on. Congrats to the Warhawks on a great year and getting back into the NCAA's after a brief hiatus.
Wheaton looks to have the tools to go very far. If they can put it together for 90 minutes, they should be close to Messiah's level.
Couldn't tell from the feed but looked about the same as the first PK, so looked soft on video.
OWU really controlled the second half, and especially the last 25 minutes. Doesn't necessarily mean anything going into OT but they have momentum.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 15, 2014, 04:24:01 PM
Just watched a fantastic game. Thomas More played harder than any team I've seen this year.
Played their butts off for 105 minutes. Outshot a technically superior North Park 29 to 10. #6 for Thomas More is a great player who just played his heart out. Incredible team spirit and some VERY lively fans. North Park took some time to get into the match but they also played very hard. They had several very talented players.
I left at half of the Thomas More game. In the center stands, where I watched the game, there were TWO North Park fans. More has a ton of kids from Cincy and Northern KY - at times I thought I was at a HS game, especially when compared to the fans of previous Kenyon-Berg game. One More fan had to asked to stop tugging on the fence (he was wearing shorts and looked as if he should have been at a pointy ball game). Be enthusiastic - but this isn't redneck pointy ball folks.
More just got to every ball quicker and was able to push NP players off the ball with little effort. Either way, the winner of the second game will be the lambs headed to the slaughter. Kenyon pulled all their key starters 5 min into the second half and should have minimal trouble moving on. 2-0 min tomorrow for Kenyon.
Wow Calvin misses 2 absolutely golden chances in first OT
...and that was their third they missed by hitting crossbar AGAIN
PKs for OWU-Calvin in chilly Holland, MI
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 15, 2014, 07:23:24 PM
PKs for OWU-Calvin in chilly Holland, MI
Glad to see the card given to OWU keeper. The garbage Krul started this summer - re keeper "antics" during KFTM - should have been addressed then. Now keepers feel compelled? to trash talk kickers.
OWU wins 4-2 in PKs. OWU makes, Calvin hits wide. OWU makes, Calvin saved. Makes on both sides. OWU saved, Calvin makes. OWU makes for 4-2 win.
In fairness, Calvin's keeper did identical things, especially last night. I think it's pretty bush league on both sides, but I guess it is what it is. As a goalie, you'd gladly take a yellow for a mental edge.
IMO the bigger issue on PKs is goalies coming off their line before the ball is hit. Didn't rewind but looked like OWU's keeper was 2 feet off his line on his save.
Ohio Wesleyan continues to be a huge thorn in Calvin's side. After losing to OWU in 2009, the 2011 National Championship game, and 2013, Calvin got some revenge early this season...only to fall to OWU in PKs today.
Calvin should have ended the game in overtime. A great cross looked to be heading right for an open Calvin player but it ended up hitting the crossbar. Then, in the second OT, an almost identical play led to a wide open header for Calvin from 5 yards out, but it went off the bar again.
I thought Calvin made it to the Final 4 in 2009
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 15, 2014, 08:02:51 PM
I thought Calvin made it to the Final 4 in 2009
They did - should have clarified, OWU beat them in the regular season in 2009 and in 2012.
Agree Ryan with your OWU-Calvin assessment as I sit here at the New Holland Brewery in beautiful downtown Holland MI for a post game beverage. What those watching on video probably did not see was OWU's coaches signaling to the keeper which way the Calvin shooter would go based on their PK from the night before. Seemed to work for them
Congrats to U of Chicago (Asst coach is the son of my college teammate). They're looking at some Ohio products to add to their roster next year - should be moving on up over the next few years.
Live by the PK, die by the PK. This was Calvin's 3rd in a row.
PKs do seem pretty arbitrary, especially when on the losing side.
I thought Martin made a good tactical decision having Bloecher go first. If he misses then that might impact the next kickers but he didn't miss. Calvin had Vegter go third (which is better than fifth when you might not even get up to kick), but by his turn Calvin already had missed two.
Now OWU can relax and wait to see if Kenyon can hold serve tomorrow.
Stevens beat Montclair St. 3-0. I thought the Ducks could take the game, but didn't see that kind of scoreline in favor of Stevens. In the final analysis, Montclair St. got beat every time they played a good team: Cortland St., Wheaton-IL, Messiah, Rutgers-Newark, and now Stevens. What does that say about the NJAC? Rutgers-Newark did beat Babson today.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 15, 2014, 08:09:33 PM
Live by the PK, die by the PK. This was Calvin's 3rd in a row.
PKs do seem pretty arbitrary, especially when on the losing side.
I thought Martin made a good tactical decision having Bloecher go first. If he misses then that might impact the next kickers but he didn't miss. Calvin had Vegter go third (which is better than fifth when you might not even get up to kick), but by his turn Calvin already had missed two.
Now OWU can relax and wait to see if Kenyon can hold serve tomorrow.
More's forwards are ploddingly slow - will not challenge Kenyon's backs at all. I was impressed with the decisions and skill of More's backs - they didn't do anything stupid. After gaining possession their backs would make forays through the middle third into the attacking third - Kenyon loves "rope a dope" defense and if More tries to use the backs to initiate attacks they will be dispossessed and pay dearly.
If I could advise Kenyon it would be to use #21 - the Red Haired Wonder - more centrally as I feel he is the play maker on the team. More cannot match his strength and skill in the midfield: Kenyon could make this a route if they dominate the midfield - #21 - and attack quickly.
Live Table:
UAA: 2-1-0
-Rochester v Salisbury 0-0 Halftime Rochester out shooting Salisbury 2-1.
Nescac 2-0-0
-Bowdoin v Brockport St 1-1 Halftime
Centennial: 2-1-0
Newmac: 1-2-0
Domino, you must have missed #6 for Th More. He was fast, dynamic, and ran full out all over the field. He played a marvelous game and was clear "man of the match" and in 2nd OT he made a dummy play that allowed a ball coming in to beat the North Park keeper. I was very impressed with Thomas More and their collective work rate. They are tough kids from northern KY and Cincinnati area who are not intimidated and a little bit nasty (like their exuberant [overly?] fans). It will be interesting to see how the Kenyon student group interacts with the Th More faithful. At any rate, I cannot overemphasize how hard Th More played. They wanted it bad today. They acted like they had won a national championship and one question tomorrow will be how much they have left in the tank after a very tough 2OT game and dramatic emotional celebration. Watching this one I had the thought of Th More being a very good, enthusiastic college team playing a semi-professional, PDL-style North Park where several of their players seemed like they could be in the mid-to-late 20s.
Hardin-Simmons goes up 1-0 on Trinity (Tx.). Can they repeat their 2009 upset of the Tigers?
Christopher Newport and Lynchburg still knotted at 0. Even game for the first 45, but CNU has been dominating the last 10 or so. Just hit the post.
brockport and bowdoin going to ot tied at 2
And CNU takes the lead on one of the best goals of the NCAAs so far. Clearance bounces outside the box and CNU player just crushes a half volley top shelf. Goalie had no chance. Great goal.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 15, 2014, 08:53:22 PM
Domino, you must have missed #6 for Th More. He was fast, dynamic, and ran full out all over the field. He played a marvelous game and was clear "man of the match" and in 2nd OT he made a dummy play that allowed a ball coming in to beat the North Park keeper. I was very impressed with Thomas More and their collective work rate. They are tough kids from northern KY and Cincinnati area who are not intimidated and a little bit nasty (like their exuberant [overly?] fans). It will be interesting to see how the Kenyon student group interacts with the Th More faithful. At any rate, I cannot overemphasize how hard Th More played. They wanted it bad today. They acted like they had won a national championship and one question tomorrow will be how much they have left in the tank after a very tough 2OT game and dramatic emotional celebration. Watching this one I had the thought of Th More being a very good, enthusiastic college team playing a semi-professional, PDL-style North Park where several of their players seemed like they could be in the mid-to-late 20s.
Left at half, but have seen Kenyon enough to know that if they play their game they will prevail. As a ref in Ohio South I've seen plenty of Cincy/Kings Academy (Northern KY) teams to know their work ethic. Like the Black Knight of Monty Python films . . .
A facet of the college game (my son is a freshman at Capital) that kind of takes me aback is how Poor/Individual (non team focused) the decision making can be at times. Fight and grit are great - but poor decisions sink the ship. Decision making that should have been worked out years prior - I see at the college game.
North Park possessed the ball better through the midfield - they failed in the attacking third. They were soft - too easily dispossessed (one measure of softness is how many times a player raises their hands in a plaintive manner towards the referee after receiving contact - too many for North Park). And a key to their failure in the final third is they stopped playing team ball.
The showdown against Messiah IS in Kenyon's hands. They just need to take it one game at a time - and their key players played 5 minutes in the second half today. More will come out guns a blazing - and probably get crushed second half tomorrow.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 15, 2014, 08:28:30 PM
If I could advise Kenyon it would be to use #21 - the Red Haired Wonder - more centrally as I feel he is the play maker on the team. More cannot match his strength and skill in the midfield: Kenyon could make this a route if they dominate the midfield - #21 - and attack quickly.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this guy. I watched the OWU-Kenyon NCAC Final and I thought he was extremely dangerous (he scored the game-winner in OT). I didn't get to see the game today because of streaming issues but I watched his goal today against Heidelberg on the Kenyon site and it was a great finish (much like the OT goal). I was wondering why he hasn't been mentioned before anywhere. I did some research and found that he is a redshirted Sophomore D1 transfer from Providence College, who was a NCAA tourney team last year, and played for Solar Chelsea Academy in Dallas. I did some more research and found out that he has been playing holding midfield all season (fourth on the team in minutes) and moved to more of a attacking outside midfield role for the NCAC final and apparently today as well. When I watched him play in the NCAC final he definitely looked like a veteran attacking midfielder, not out of place at all. I feel like this guy maybe one of the best players in D3 that no one knows about and Kenyon has been hiding him all season just to unleash him for the postseason.
Bowdoin beats Brockport 3-2 in OT and UR all over Salisbury after half time.
Who said the UAA and Nescac were down? Actually both leagues will have much harder matches tomorrow.
Rochester at F&M
Chicago at Wartburg
Brandeis v Bowdoin
Amherst at SLU
Tufts at Wheaton(MA)
5 road games and 1 home game for both conferences. Plus a head to head battle between Brandeis and Bowdoin.
Quote from: chelseafc30 on November 15, 2014, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 15, 2014, 08:28:30 PM
If I could advise Kenyon it would be to use #21 - the Red Haired Wonder - more centrally as I feel he is the play maker on the team. More cannot match his strength and skill in the midfield: Kenyon could make this a route if they dominate the midfield - #21 - and attack quickly.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this guy. I watched the OWU-Kenyon NCAC Final and I thought he was extremely dangerous (he scored the game-winner in OT). I didn't get to see the game today because of streaming issues but I watched his goal today against Heidelberg on the Kenyon site and it was a great finish (much like the OT goal). I was wondering why he hasn't been mentioned before anywhere. I did some research and found that he is a redshirted Sophomore D1 transfer from Providence College, who was a NCAA tourney team last year, and played for Solar Chelsea Academy in Dallas. I did some more research and found out that he has been playing holding midfield all season (fourth on the team in minutes) and moved to more of a attacking outside midfield role for the NCAC final and apparently today as well. When I watched him play in the NCAC final he definitely looked like a veteran attacking midfielder, not out of place at all. I feel like this guy maybe one of the best players in D3 that no one knows about and Kenyon has been hiding him all season just to unleash him for the postseason.
He was used wide today - left mid. He's got great size and beautiful touch - just wondering what he could do as their Pirlo.
CNU sophomore hits an absolute cracker for the win. Goal of the day.
Salisbury essentially confirmed my view of them as perhaps the weakest at-large team. They had ZERO ranked/good wins this year and just got in based on perception IMO.
[/quote]
The showdown against Messiah IS in Kenyon's hands. They just need to take it one game at a time - and their key players played 5 minutes in the second half today. More will come out guns a blazing - and probably get crushed second half tomorrow.
[/quote]
Messiah hasn't even played yet! And some notables have already made their exits.
I think a lot of us knew that Rochester, even if questionably deserving to get in, would be a tough out if they did get in. I see the game with F&M as 50/50.
I have to admit I'm surprised by Bowdoin. They don't score for like 3 games and today they get 3. Still, though, if Brandeis gets a lead I don't see the Judges being as forgiving as Brockport.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 15, 2014, 09:46:52 PM
Salisbury essentially confirmed my view of them as perhaps the weakest at-large team. They had ZERO ranked/good wins this year and just got in based on perception IMO.
And the snub of JCU???? I sucks that Kenyon was matched up against Heidelberg, and now plays a heavy Ohio based team tomorrow - but I posted previously about the Midwest being a victim of mediocrity or parity: I think parity is more accurate. We will have two teams in the final 16 after tomorrow, out of three allowed to participate.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 15, 2014, 10:03:18 PM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 15, 2014, 09:46:52 PM
Salisbury essentially confirmed my view of them as perhaps the weakest at-large team. They had ZERO ranked/good wins this year and just got in based on perception IMO.
And the snub of JCU???? I sucks that Kenyon was matched up against Heidelberg, and now plays a heavy Ohio based team tomorrow - but I posted previously about the Midwest being a victim of mediocrity or parity: I think parity is more accurate. We will have two teams in the final 16 after tomorrow, out of three allowed to participate.
And then of course they had to put Kenyon and OWU on the same side of the quad when, if Kenyon does win tomorrow, that would deserve to be an elite 8 game.
North Park played the match against Thomas More today without the services of the CCIW's leading scorer, sophomore forward Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh, who has been sidelined with mononucleosis. Just saying. NPU's actually a pretty young team, as four of today's starters for the Vikings were freshmen. They'll be back.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2014, 10:08:57 PM
North Park played the match against Thomas More today without the services of the CCIW's leading scorer, sophomore forward Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh, who has been sidelined with mononucleosis. Just saying. NPU's actually a pretty young team, as four of today's starters for the Vikings were freshmen. They'll be back.
That's always a tough situation. Not an excuse in the least bit, but the '09 OWU team that flamed out had half the starters contract swine flu leading up to the NCAA tournament.
Injuries, sickness, just pure luck is such a factor in one-off situations like the NCAA tournament. It makes getting to the Final Four in and of itself and great achievement, and Messiah's run all the more unbelievable.
Anyone catching this Trinty v Hardin Simmons game.....HSU coach is coaching every play screaming at his players. Ive already tuned him out and I have only been listening for 5 minutes. Players do not usually respond to this type of yelling for a long time. If you were not watching the game and only had audio on you would swear you were at a WWF event. Poor Paul McGinlay Trinity's coach and such a class act dealing with this knucklehead for HSU..
Meanwhile, while no one is looking, Whitworth (along with Wheaton Ill and OWU) is sitting in the sweet 16. Looks like they dominated Berry who played Emory evenly. And looks like Wheaton dominated UWW in a clinical performance. I've changed my mind and don't see Wartburg taking the Thunder out.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 15, 2014, 10:16:31 PM
Anyone catching this Trinty v Hardin Simmons game.....HSU coach is coaching every play screaming at his players. Ive already tuned him out and I have only been listening for 5 minutes. Players do not usually respond to this type of yelling for a long time. If you were not watching the game and only had audio on you would swear you were at a WWF event. Poor Paul McGinlay Trinity's coach and such a class act dealing with this knucklehead for HSU..
I was thinking the exact same thing. The guy is ridiculously annoying. And I'd guess his demeanor is contributing to how chippy this game seems.
Please provide updates on Trinity game. I can't get video or live stats. In OT, right?
Trinity dominating possession and such a better team. HSU just running and whacking everything. 1-1 7 minutes left in regulation.
Trinity scores with 23 seconds left. In cruel fashion the one time Hardin Simmons did NOT just launch a clearance two players mixed up and gave Trinity a breakaway.
Trinity wins it with 23 seconds left 2-1...There is a god...Send HSU packing
Tensions were the highest in this game that I saw all day today. Game ended with almost a brawl before hand shakes. Between the downpour, heavy wind, coach screaming, NCAA tension, chipiness, swearing at e/o, fans yelling at refs I can say I was legitimately entertained to end my night
Just got home from pod of games at F&M. Dips certainly were unimpressive in their 1-0 win. First time seeing them in person, and they are a tall group. Definitely have quality on the roster, but they just seemed to be lacking the sharpness necessary to break through and create offense consistently.
Meanwhile, Rochester and Salisbury played a pretty even first half, and then it looked like Salisbury forgot there would be a second. Rochester absolutely blew the doors off, and I could see tomorrow's game between the Dips and the Jackets being a close one. Should be a fun one to watch.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 15, 2014, 10:45:02 PM
Tensions were the highest in this game that I saw all day today. Game ended with almost a brawl before hand shakes. Between the downpour, heavy wind, coach screaming, NCAA tension, chipiness, swearing at e/o, fans yelling at refs I can say I was legitimately entertained to end my night
Trinity and HSU have quite the rivalry both in men's and women's soccer. HSU would fit better in the SCAC than the ASC, to be quite honest.
After seeing Wheaton (IL) live today, it's hard to imagine anybody short of Messiah beating them. Their speed, strength, and off the ball movement was exceptional. UWW's defense, which has been pretty solid this year when they're in their 4-5-1 (giving up 1 goal or less in their last 13 games) seemed to have no answer for the individual skill and teamwork that Wheaton showed. UWW put up a valiant effort, and a phenomenal game by their GK kept the scoreline close but in the end Wheaton was too much for them. Wheaton played soccer the way it should be played: technical passing/movement, anticipating not reacting, hard in for tackles but not dirty. It's hard not to appreciate that, and I'll be pulling for them the rest of the tournament. Of the past 8 years that I've followed the Warhawks closely, this is the most impressive team I have seen them face, which is saying a lot considering they've played a good amount of Final Four opponents in that time span. If Wheaton continues to play as well as they did today they'll be in for a deep tournament run, and possibly national title contenders.
Wheaton (Ill) is one of a handful of programs that play with 2 or more stars on their chest.
These boys are good, with a great history.
Really respect that program and the tradition keeps going.
Once again proves the more times you dance, the better you get at it.
Has Wheaton gelled later in the season? They have 3 losses so they apparently are beatable. The losses are to 2 really good teams and 1 mediocre team so that's understandable, but I don't think tgey should be handed the silver medal just yet. I watched Whitworth (one of their losses) beat Covenant the other day and they looked better than Wheaton technically.
Whitworth looks legit when I saw them play on Friday night on video. I missed the Berry game but against Covenant they dominated. That was he first time I saw them though and was not sure if Covenant was that bad or Whitworth that good. I am guessing the latter
Yes I could tell after 5 minutes of Trinity v HSU that was as intense a rivalry in D3 soccer there is.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 16, 2014, 12:00:01 PM
Has Wheaton gelled later in the season? They have 3 losses so they apparently are beatable. The losses are to 2 really good teams and 1 mediocre team so that's understandable, but I don't think tgey should be handed the silver medal just yet. I watched Whitworth (one of their losses) beat Covenant the other day and they looked better than Wheaton technically.
Since that Carthage loss they have outscored their opponents 24-3 (all 3 of those coming in games they still won by at least 3 goals). The key to the earlier losses were keeping the score low, but with how they've been finding the net lately and how they came together last night I'm not sure how you keep them from scoring. Maybe they just played exceptionally well last night, but if the team we saw last night can bring that level every game they are going to be hard to stop. Consistency will be key for them (as it is for any team looking to make a run).
Amherst v SLU will be interesting as Amherst rested and di not play 6 starters yesterday against Fitchburg St. They started their GK and back 4 and 6 reserves. Smart coaching move but also a tad arrogant and a slap in the face to the opponent. I like it and am interested to see how they come out against SLU. SLU has GOT to have revenge on their mind for last year. They need to get over the Williams / Amherst hump they have run into the last few years
Wheaton MA and Tufts should provide some goals and Tufts will have their starting CB Kramer back after a 2 game suspension.
One more note. I was very impressed with the way Brandeis played yesterday against Husson. They moved the ball two touch all over the field. They are great at home and played very well on the carpet. Husson was not very athletic but were well organized and did not give Brandeis much space. Brandeis still played some great futbol. Let's see how they do against a more athletic side in Bowdoin today.
Amherst bench antics are a disgrace to the game.
Yea we go over this in Nescac thread all the time..Nothing you can do but ignore it
Glassman left the premises after Bein subbed out (Kenyon). Not a happy camper. More changed things up today, 15 playing deep sweeper, 3 as def mid (played target yesterday)
cortland is up 2-0 with about four left in the first. oneonta is tied at 0 at the half
0-0 at half between SLU and Amherst. SLU dictated most of the half, and had lots of dangerous chances. Knocking at the door. Very physical game so far.
More is playing a 2-3-2-3 with the back two never venturing past midfield. If Kenyon is to get a result today it will have to come from a set piece. More has had some very good chances but it feels like they are waiting for KFTM.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 16, 2014, 01:20:33 PM
Glassman left the premises after Bein subbed out (Kenyon). Not a happy camper. More changed things up today, 15 playing deep sweeper, 3 as def mid (played target yesterday)
Glassman out with hamstring injury
Tufts misses a couple sitters. Still up 1-0 on Wheaton MA. COuld be 2 or 3. Game is picking up steam and tempers flaring
Amherst seems to be picking up steam. They are putting some pressure on and have a huge advantage if they get a free kick in a nice spot. BOTH teams playing very chippy. 5 Total cards so far
Amherst take the lead on a garbage goal.
oneonta finally puts one in with 7 to go
As soon as i say that they put in another to go up 2-0
SLU ties it up with 11 to go
Tufts putting Wheaton MA to bed 2-0 with about 10 to go. Wheaton had some moments but they are really playing chippy and I do not think they can match Tufts today. Wheaton a good side but are 0-2-1 against Nescac this year and they are Newmac's best team.
Messia up 1-0 inside a minute
Phenomenal effort by Morrisville St. keeper to keep them in the game until late when kovack scores off a corner kick. Morrisville parked the bus and rarely ventured forward. Their back line was very strong
Going to OT at Kenyon
SLU-Amherst going into OT tied at 1.
cortland moves on winning 2-1
Red Card for Amherst Bubba Van Wie...stupid foul..Serpone going NUTS...shouldn't matter now as this one has PK's written all over it and Amherst should bunker in
Amherst bench finally gets carded. Absolute joke of a program.
Serpone and the bench get a Yellow....Could be a long 6 hour nus ride home if they do not get thru..to be fair SLU has been just as chippy. The ref seems to be a bit of a homer but maybe thats the NESCAC in my blood.
Not a joke but very arrogant and classless howver SLU cannot get by Nescac teams mainly Williams and Amherst. They like Brandeis need to clear this hurdle
I respect their intrinsic results, but no self-respecting team conducts their selves the way Amherst does.
I'm unsure why or how the Amherst bench isn't carded almost every single game. Serpone alone could get a straight red sometimes...but I digress. That's the nature of the beast with Amherst
Agree with both of you completely but I have been saying this for years. I guess you learn to tune it out
Ooooooh - they wave off the goal for Thomas more ...never seen anything that close to a buzzer beater EVER. It hit the back of the net as time expired
PKs now
How about that ending at Kenyon? More hits the crossbar with 5 seconds left puts the rebound in a second too late. Kicks from the mark here
Kenyon-Thomas More to PKs. Muhlenberg-Catholic headed that way, too!
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 16, 2014, 03:26:40 PM
How about that ending at Kenyon? More hits the crossbar with 5 seconds left puts the rebound in a second too late. Kicks from the mark here
NCAA rules are so stupid sometimes. Let them play. I hate the fact that there's no stoppage time.
Heading to PK's with SLU and Amherst. Let's see if Bull tries and pulls those antics he had against Bowdoin.
Quote from: stlawus on November 16, 2014, 03:31:01 PM
Heading to PK's with SLU and Amherst. Let's see if Bull tries and pulls those antics he had against Bowdoin.
I doubt this ref is as bad as that ref was...
PK's for Amherst - SLU...Watch for Catholic subbing a field player /GK for PK's he is VERY good. Muhlenberg better be ready
Wow BOTH teams using reserve keepers for PK's.
Atrocious PKs by SLU, like holy hell.
Wow- their reserve keepers are both excellent.
SLU was the better team. Amherst advances, but SLU was the better team.
Agreed. Welcome to playing Amherst, Stlawus. Ugly, grind, chippy, poor-behavior...but they win. This team is built for the NCAA tournament back-to-back game style.
Shots and corners were 27-11 and 9-1 for SLU respectively. Credit to Amherst for advancing, but they are a stain on the NCAA.
Live Table:
UAA- 3-1-0 Brandeis and UR at 5pm Chicago down 1-0 at Half
Nescac 4-0-1 Bowdoin at 5pm 2 possibly 3 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 2-1-1 F&m at 5pm 1 possibly 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
STLAWUS the better team won.
Congratulate Amherst. This is not the way we act.
Now hope that they win it all.
Good job Amherst. Man down to a possession team with 15 minutes to play and they advance!
Muhlenberg in PK's go to the sweet 16 again...This team is on a roll that's for sure...
Muhlenberg v Tufts will be an interesting match up I assume at Messiah. Muhlenberg should get a good scouting report from Dickinson coach.
Unfamiliar with Muhlenberg...what should I be watching for/can anyone give me a quick rundown? Thanks!
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 03:51:55 PM
Muhlenberg v Tufts will be an interesting match up I assume at Messiah. Muhlenberg should get a good scouting report from Dickinson coach.
Being an even numbered year, if the Messiah women win tonight they would have hosting priority at the Sectional stage of the tournament. So the Messiah men would look to be going on the road, probably to Muhlenberg or Cortland St. I would imagine.
Live Table:
UAA- 3-2-0 Chicago falls at Wartburg. What a difference a day makes. From blizzard to sun at Wartburg. Brandeis and UR at 5pm
Nescac 4-0-1 Bowdoin at 5pm 2 possibly 3 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 2-1-1 F&m at 5pm 1 possibly 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
After seeing Muhlenberg's field lets hope Messiah women lose. I do not think Cortland hosts over Muhlenberg
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 04:05:12 PM
After seeing Muhlenberg's field lets hope Messiah women lose. I do not think Cortland hosts over Muhlenberg
What's wrong with Muhlenberg's field? It's been over a decade since I was last there. It's a small field, but the condition was fine the times I was there. The stands are tight to the field and so the crowd can certainly make it's presence felt. It a nice short drive for the Messiah faithful, so they could even outnumber the Muhlenberg fans.
Selfishly, I'd prefer Muhlenberg to Cortland for the proximity. Not sure I'd make the trip up to Cortland due to family priorities, and certainly not both days. Good memories at Cortland State, though, with my brother and Clarkson beating Plattsburgh St. in PK's in a snowy, sub-freezing first round match in 1993. If PK's aren't nerve-wracking enough for family and fans, there was a long delay after OT as they decided to move the PK's to an adjacent field for better penalty box conditions. Also, Clarkson replaced their senior starting GK with a freshman GK who came up huge. Incredibly both teams took 17 PK's (if memory serves) to decide who'd advance. Can't believe that's half a lifetime ago!
After seeing Muhlenberg's field on video it looks to be narrow(which Tufts would be used to) and it looks to be the old turf. Their video quality is NOT good and borderline horrible so I could be wrong but the video issue would be another problem
1993 Clarkson made the final four. I thought they were good but they were the weaker of the 4 schools there. It is a hockey school after all. I love the old stories with bad facilities and fields and refs moving PK's to another field. VIP tents and host schools etc etc.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 04:44:35 PM
After seeing Muhlenberg's field on video it looks to be narrow(which Tufts would be used to) and it looks to be the old turf. Their video quality is NOT good and borderline horrible so I could be wrong but the video issue would be another problem
Small, narrow fits what I remember. Was grass last I knew, but as I said, a decade plus since I would have last been there. Video quality doesn't matter if I can be there in person!!! Just kidding! I understand how frustrating that can be, especially for family and fans that can't make it there in person as well as for the neutrals who want to follow the game.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 04:47:57 PM
1993 Clarkson made the final four. I thought they were good but they were the weaker of the 4 schools there. It is a hockey school after all. I love the old stories with bad facilities and fields and refs moving PK's to another field. VIP tents and host schools etc etc.
Yeah, after Thanksgiving Day and without sleeping at all I made the through-the-night drive from south central PA up to Williamstown, MA arriving at about 6 am, parking and falling asleep in the car until closer to game time. Frooze my butt off in snow flurries for the third straight weekend, and since Clarkson didn't win, ate lunch and headed right back to PA. Six or so hours up with some stops to wake up, nap, game, lunch, and the drive back all in about 20 total hours. Uggh! Thus started and cemented my "hatred" of Williams (they had knocked off my alma mater Messiah in the quarterfinals the prior weekend). Clarkson certainly was the team that was crashing the party, but it was a pretty darn good team. They earned their place there beating Plattsburgh St. and Cortland St. and then Rowan back when they were still a powerhouse, but they weren't quite up to Williams standard but I'm guessing few were that year. That year's run got the soccer team some attention, but, yes, Division I hockey is king at a place like Clarkson for sure.
Wonder if that equalizing goal for F&M will get them going after a lack-lustre tournament opener and early concession today. With the 2-goal loss to Haverford in the Centennial semifinals, it's been a while since the Diplomats have been playing the way that got them to 15-0-2.
IIAC 2-0-1 going into tonight's Loras vs. GAC game (One of those ties Wartburg won on PKs vs MSOE). Should be an interesting game in Dubuque for sure!
The possibility of a quadrant of the sweet sixteen with Loras, Trinity, Wartburg, and Wheaton sounds too good to be true!
Sorry I will include the IIAC in my next table..
Bowdooin v Brandeis is a 0-0 match with about 10 minutes left in 1st half. Brandeis might get thru this one bur take them off the carpet they will be suspect. Also, 3 backs will not work in the NCAA later rounds. They will get burned eventually
Driving with poor connection so cant give full report yet but wild day in Gambier and Kenyon fortunate to survive vs Th More who again played their hearts out in a poorly officiated game. #6 for TMC has the most impressive work rate of any player I've seen in D3. And his throwins were more dangerous than corners. He must have had at least 12 throws on a rope deep into the box. Kenyon did outplay them for most of 2nd half but game obviously could have gone either way and Th More will be heard from again. Kenyon had couple of injuries that didnt help but they did come through in PKs. After game someone told me #6 was a NCSAA all american as a soph.
Every so often the Falcons have a close first-round game,and today it happened again. Well, ok, it was technically a second-round game, but they hadn't played in 8 days so from their point of view it's the opening round. Should have been at least 2-0 after 10 minutes, but they missed a couple gimmes. Possession was probably 80% Falcons, but as they say it only takes one and they had none until the final 8 minutes. Ko arch scored while falling down in front of the keeper; it was actually a much more difficult shot than some of the ones they missed. Otherwise the Falcons looked sharp, with plenty of hustle. I really wish they could play at home next weekend, but not if it means the women must lose.
Danny Brandt is back from missing a few weeks with a bad ankle. Freshman Colby Thomas started in his place again and played very well, but it's great to have Danny back. IMO the game could actually have been won earlier,when Thomas was in for Payne at target, by sending a couple of balls into the box over the defense, instead of doing the usual Messiah buildup and having the target play it back a few times. Thomas is quicker than it appears, based on how he's being used--indeed he might even be as fast as kovach, who's been the speed merchant these past four years. To be frank, I suspect his teammates don't quite realize yet just how quick--and how good overall--he really is. The back line for Morrisville has good speed, but Thomas can burn even quick defenders, especially when they play him tight outside the box and give him an open field behind them. Don't be surprised if he starts taking what's being given, and scores one or two big goals the rest of the way. He might not be a goalkeeper, but he's a keeper. He'd start at target or wing for absolutely any other team I've seen this year. I predict he leads the Falcons in scoring for the next 3 years.
That should say Kovach scored the goal.
Did Stevens peak at just the right time this season? They had a rough September and then when they got on a roll it was in Empire 8 play which isn't the best indicator of how good a team is. But through 2 hours of tournament play, they have a 5-0 goal advantage against decent opposition. Montclair St. was probably overrated having not beaten any of the ranked opponents, but not a cupcake. And Christopher Newport was inconsistent all season though clearly a pretty good side when things are clicking. So does Stevens success so far (and there's still 45 minutes for CNU to turn this around) say more about them or about MSU and CNU?
When I sa them on video at home vs Alfred in their Semi Final in the Empire 8 they looked decent but Alfred held them scoreless for 110 minutes. I thought they would be a dangerous team but not a Sweet 16 team. They are athletic and work very hard. Their GK is solid. I do not think they will keep this going out in Ohio next week as Whitworth can match their athleticism and physicality.
Well, CNU has knotted things up at 2 against Stevens and has all the momentum at the moment.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 05:54:07 PM
Driving with poor connection so cant give full report yet but wild day in Gambier and Kenyon fortunate to survive vs Th More who again played their hearts out in a poorly officiated game. #6 for TMC has the most impressive work rate of any player I've seen in D3. And his throwins were more dangerous than corners. He must have had at least 12 throws on a rope deep into the box. Kenyon did outplay them for most of 2nd half but game obviously could have gone either way and Th More will be heard from again. Kenyon had couple of injuries that didnt help but they did come through in PKs. After game someone told me #6 was a NCSAA all american as a soph.
Were you there? And you didn't say hello?
How about the 60 min mark when he was about to break in alone, 25 yards from goal, and 18 white grabs him by the waist with both hands. Had he indulged in gamesmanship and gone down you would have had DOGSO. But he fought through the foul and kept his feet. When the advantage didn't materialize I was sure the CR was going to call the foul and book 18. Nothing.
Well, Chris. Newport has completed the comeback, lead 3-2 over Stevens with 17 min. to play. The Captains have really taken it to Stevens after the break.
Missed the F&M go-ahead goal as I was "flipping channels".
Anyone watching the Brandeis-Bowdoin game? Is it as lopsided as the stats suggest?
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 16, 2014, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 05:54:07 PM
Driving with poor connection so cant give full report yet but wild day in Gambier and Kenyon fortunate to survive vs Th More who again played their hearts out in a poorly officiated game. #6 for TMC has the most impressive work rate of any player I've seen in D3. And his throwins were more dangerous than corners. He must have had at least 12 throws on a rope deep into the box. Kenyon did outplay them for most of 2nd half but game obviously could have gone either way and Th More will be heard from again. Kenyon had couple of injuries that didnt help but they did come through in PKs. After game someone told me #6 was a NCSAA all american as a soph.
Were you there? And you didn't say hello?
How about the 60 min mark when he was about to break in alone, 25 yards from goal, and 18 white grabs him by the waist with both hands. Had he indulged in gamesmanship and gone down you would have had DOGSO. But he fought through the foul and kept his feet. When the advantage didn't materialize I was sure the CR was going to call the foul and book 18. Nothing.
Lol, maybe you were sitting right next to me. I told you yesterday or this morning how good that kid is and you didn't seem to believe me. I thought the ref let TMC get away with 3-4 very bad fouls in the first 5 minutes, which set tone for rest of game, including two that led to injuries and a Kenyon forward never returning, and right after that called a soft push foul on a normal ball winning header against Kenyon. The Lords also maybe should have gotten a PK call late and nothing was called.
Btw, are we already at a record for number of PK games in a tournament???
Brandeis beats Bowdoin 1-0. Brandeis definitely more incisive, but Bowdoin was more physical. Regardless, the Judges did well to stand up to Bowdoin's physicality. They've started to answer their critics in that department. Will be interesting to see how they approach Amherst.
Rochester and F&M off to OT tied up at 2.
Brandeis and Bowdoin was not as lopsided as the stats are saying. The SOG stat tells it all. Brandeis was a tad better today on their carpet. They possessed the ball wonderfully again today but Bowdoin certainly had their chances. The game was played between the 18's for the most part.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 06:51:51 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 16, 2014, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 05:54:07 PM
Driving with poor connection so cant give full report yet but wild day in Gambier and Kenyon fortunate to survive vs Th More who again played their hearts out in a poorly officiated game. #6 for TMC has the most impressive work rate of any player I've seen in D3. And his throwins were more dangerous than corners. He must have had at least 12 throws on a rope deep into the box. Kenyon did outplay them for most of 2nd half but game obviously could have gone either way and Th More will be heard from again. Kenyon had couple of injuries that didnt help but they did come through in PKs. After game someone told me #6 was a NCSAA all american as a soph.
Were you there? And you didn't say hello?
How about the 60 min mark when he was about to break in alone, 25 yards from goal, and 18 white grabs him by the waist with both hands. Had he indulged in gamesmanship and gone down you would have had DOGSO. But he fought through the foul and kept his feet. When the advantage didn't materialize I was sure the CR was going to call the foul and book 18. Nothing.
Lol, maybe you were sitting right next to me. I told you yesterday or this morning how good that kid is and you didn't seem to believe me. I thought the ref let TMC get away with 3-4 very bad fouls in the first 5 minutes, which set tone for rest of game, including two that led to injuries and a Kenyon forward never returning, and right after that called a soft push foul on a normal ball winning header against Kenyon. The Lords also maybe should have gotten a PK call late and nothing was called.
Btw, are we already at a record for number of PK games in a tournament???
No disagreement on 6 - I liked the way 12 played yesterday and today as well.
I stand but what I said about Kenyon's backs after the Capital game - they do some shaky things: 22 was a liability most of the day today and 18 wasn't consistent. Of course Justice had a very strong game.
The ball-to-hand incidents - I thought the CR got them right. Today's featured foul - jumping into or over opponents on header challenges - I think he needed to card one of those as there were 10-15 ugly challenges of this nature. I do not let horizontal challenges go without a talking to - too many today (along with subtle under-cutting).
I was sitting center section, top row behind all the Kenyon parents (and their poofy dogs - seriously - how many dogs were there today?). I asked the parents of 9 about Glassman - he had a gimpy hamstring and must have aggravated it during that early foul.
Kenyon, OWU, CNU, Whitworth is an attractive sectional.
All of them are setting up pretty nicely.
Congrats to Tufts. Beat two solid to very good (but not great) opponents. I would probably favor the Jumbos vs Mhnlenberg who seems a bit offensively challenged.
If I have to hear one more time how wet or rainy it is at F&M right now, I may not watch another broadcast with the sound on ever again.
By the stats, very even between Rochester and F&M
Goals: R-2, F&M-2
Shots: R-16, F&M-17
SOG: R-8, F&M-8
Corner Kicks: R-5, F&M-6
Fouls: R-10, F&M-10
Offsides: R-1, F&M-1
As I've tuned in and out, it has seemed to be back-and-forth.
Quote from: Sherlock Holmes on November 16, 2014, 07:16:11 PM
If I have to hear one more time how wet or rainy it is at F&M right now, I may not watch another broadcast with the sound on ever again.
Well I guess you are done watching broadcasts with sound...
Off to PKs in Lancaster with a rainy, wet field.
Well played njf. ::)
Live Table:
UAA- 4-2-1 1 team in Sweet 16
Nescac 4-1-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 3-1-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
IIAC 3-0-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
In New England Midd and Wesleyan deserved a better RR. The Newmac and the rankings were a mess.
Did Haverford deserve a 4th CC bid
Luther should have at least been ranked but they did not get any results against Loras or Wartburg
F&M moves on in PKs.
Always glad to see it end with the goalie stopping the kicks rather than the kicks going wide.
(But those PKs were not at all pretty!)
Only 1 UAA team in the sweet 16, Mr. Right.
NJAC with a bad showing. I thought Stevens might have been on all cylinders until CNU had that second half...
I think Rutgers-Camden would have fared better than Newark and Salisbury, but when you lose to teams like Cabrini and Rowan... you're not making it to the dance.
Oneonta St hosting? Messiah? Wheaton? and Kenyon or OWU?
Domino, you're losing a little credibility. Justice didn't play at all. 18 had a great game and also a goal and an assist yesterday.
And you keep mentioning the Capital game that Kenyon won 5-1, and the Cap goal came off a counter where the weak PK call was against a player not on the back line. Sure, they ain't perfect, but they must be decent given the lowest GAA in the country.
And yes, I think Haverford was deserving of a bid (but not ahead of John Carroll).
Messiah will not host cause of the even / odd years. Looks like Muhlenberg, Oneonta, Kenyon and Wheaton
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 16, 2014, 07:44:36 PM
And yes, I think Haverford was deserving of a bid (but not ahead of John Carroll).
With at-large berths, should you reward the teams that had the best seasons OR invite the teams playing the best at the end of the season in order to make the best, most competitive tournament? It's a valid question. Given how formulaic the committee seems to be using a small set of quantifiable data that covers the whole season, they very cl0aerly seem to reward the best seasons, not best teams at the time of the tournament. (BTW, the manual gives them liberty to give extra weight the final 25% of the season, but I have never sensed that that made much of a difference,)
Looking like the Sweet 16 match-ups of Brandeis vs Amherst and Tufts vs Mules are OT/PK bound...
Does anyone have a link or clip of the CNU goal vs Lynchburg?
When it comes to determine sectional hosts, are they more apt to use Muhlenberg (the higher "seed" or ranked team in the pod) or will they go for the more centralized team to save money? Does one weigh more than the other?
Usually $$$$ but on the east coast it usually is the higher seed because it is not much of a difference
Quote from: Sherlock Holmes on November 16, 2014, 07:58:35 PM
When it comes to determine sectional hosts, are they more apt to use Muhlenberg (the higher "seed" or ranked team in the pod) or will they go for the more centralized team to save money? Does one weigh more than the other?
Doesn't Muhlenberg win on both counts?
After Messiah they probably are the highest seed of the other three.
Muhlenberg: 14-1-2 (.882), .568 SOS, 6-1-0 Record vs. Ranked
Cortland St: 14-4-1 (.763), .547 SOS, 3-2-1 Record vs. Ranked
Tufts: 10-2-4 (.750), .576 SOS, 1-1-2 Record vs. Ranked
And for centrality, Muhlenberg is slightly closer (311 mi.) for Tufts than Cortland St. (329 mi.), and with Messiah close to Muhlenberg, there's no doubt that Muhlenberg means the fewest total miles traveled. But all being within 500 miles of each other, means technically any one of the schools could host from a geography standpoint pushing it back to highest seed.
I wonder if Messiah has a say in the location since they won't be able to host. They played at Muhlenberg in 2010 tourny for the same reason as this year and if I recall, it was only an hour away. I'm sure they would prefer that over a trip to Cortland or Tufts
Ah. I had no idea Muhlenberg was closer to Tufts than Cortland was. Guess I should've checked the googles. The more you know...
That's an interesting question KnightFalcon. I would guess they probably express their opinion, but it's probably not very high on the list of the committee's reasoning. But there's no experience to back that up, just a guess.
Umm Messiah has NO say in the matter and should and probably does not offer an opinion
Whitworth will have so much travel I would be surprised if they play their best against CNU.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 07:43:33 PM
Domino, you're losing a little credibility. Justice didn't play at all. 18 had a great game and also a goal and an assist yesterday.
And you keep mentioning the Capital game that Kenyon won 5-1, and the Cap goal came off a counter where the weak PK call was against a player not on the back line. Sure, they ain't perfect, but they must be decent given the lowest GAA in the country.
My bad - I was referring to 5 at center back. I don't follow them as closely as you, but if you think 18 had a great game today then we must value different things with respect to defenders. What is your honest assessment of the play at the 60 minute mark?
Here is my best guess as to where the sectional host sites will be. On the women's side I believe Messiah, Chicago, Carnegie Mellon and Williams will be hosts. For the men I believe Oneonta, Loras, Muhlenberg and Kenyon will be hosting. There are certainly arguments for other sites. The Trinity men and women are both deserving but the other three teams in their sectionals (CMU, Hopkins and Thomas More on the women's side and Wheaton, Loras and Wartburg on the men's side) makes it unlikely they will be hosting. Same goes for the Lynchburg women; certainly deserving but Messiah is centrally located to all four sectional participants. There you have it.
Why would the Wheaton Men not host? Since they have a field turf surface, I'm not sure the situation that impacts Messiah and others with grass surfaces would apply.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 08:31:42 PM
Umm Messiah has NO say in the matter and should and probably does not offer an opinion
Yeah - that was a bit presumptuous wasn't it. I was thinking if Messiah would have been asked to host but couldn't, that maybe they would have some input on the alternate site.
Domino, #5 did have a great game. And so did #18, who normally is the left back but played CB with Justice out. 18 is one of the best and strongest left backs in the country, and he is not slow. Frequently gets forward on the wing. #28 was the left back today, and he committed the play on foul I believe you are referencing. Considering that he had to mark #6 for TMC for over 100 minutes he did a pretty darn good job. Kenyon gave up way too many throws in the final 3rd, and the ref gifted them more than a handful of cheap free kicks, but all in all two clean sheets in consecutive days.
Don't know what happened with Glassman, except that he was badly taken out twice in the first 5 minutes and the ref called nothing, and then called Kenyon for fouls on pretty clean head ball wins.
And I was probably 10 feet from you.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 16, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
Why would the Wheaton Men not host? Since they have a field turf surface, I'm not sure the situation that impacts Messiah and others with grass surfaces would apply.
Not a fan of the Rock Bowl? Well the four teams in that sectional are Wheaton, Wartburg, Loras and Trinity. Wheaton, Loras and Trinity all have strong claims with regards to hosting. But this may be one where geography comes into play. Trinity is not within 500 miles of any of the other schools, all of which are fairly close (in comparison) to each other. Loras being located between Wartburg and Wheaton makes most sense. But I would not be surprised if Wheaton were chosen.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 16, 2014, 09:18:35 PM
Domino, #5 did have a great game. And so did #18, who normally is the left back but played CB with Justice out. 18 is one of the best and strongest left backs in the country, and he is not slow. Frequently gets forward on the wing. #28 was the left back today, and he committed the play on foul I believe you are referencing. Considering that he had to mark #6 for TMC for over 100 minutes he did a pretty darn good job. Kenyon gave up way too many throws in the final 3rd, and the ref gifted them more than a handful of cheap free kicks, but all in all two clean sheets in consecutive days.
Don't know what happened with Glassman, except that he was badly taken out twice in the first 5 minutes and the ref called nothing, and then called Kenyon for fouls on pretty clean head ball wins.
And I was probably 10 feet from you.
Didn't realize 18 was not in his normal position. As far as the throws - there was more and slipping while striking the ball today. 21 had some tough touches today, but I was glad to see him drift more centrally. More's formation conceded the flanks and clogged the middle - and they executed their game plan very well. It seems they had at least 5 behind the ball most of the time.
Going forward I don't see any of the final 16 making tactical adjustments as More did today. Bring your A game and see how it goes.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Live Table:
UAA- 3-1-0 Brandeis and UR at 5pm Chicago down 1-0 at Half
Nescac 4-0-1 Bowdoin at 5pm 2 possibly 3 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 2-1-1 F&m at 5pm 1 possibly 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
The NCAC is 4-0 and is guaranteed to get one team in the elite 8...
According to the interactive bracket (http://www.ncaa.com/interactive-bracket/soccer-men/d3) the men's Sectional hosts are: Oneonta St., Wheaton (Ill.), Muhlenberg, and Kenyon.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 04:44:35 PM
After seeing Muhlenberg's field on video it looks to be narrow(which Tufts would be used to) and it looks to be the old turf. Their video quality is NOT good and borderline horrible so I could be wrong but the video issue would be another problem
Pretty sure it is a grass field - they have changed it since I was there last (2009), but I haven't heard that they have.
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 16, 2014, 09:25:09 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 16, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
Why would the Wheaton Men not host? Since they have a field turf surface, I'm not sure the situation that impacts Messiah and others with grass surfaces would apply.
Not a fan of the Rock Bowl? Well the four teams in that sectional are Wheaton, Wartburg, Loras and Trinity. Wheaton, Loras and Trinity all have strong claims with regards to hosting. But this may be one where geography comes into play. Trinity is not within 500 miles of any of the other schools, all of which are fairly close (in comparison) to each other. Loras being located between Wartburg and Wheaton makes most sense. But I would not be surprised if Wheaton were chosen.
Ah - yes the geography angle would make sense - especially with 2 Iowa teams. But, no, my reasons are more selfish as it would far easier for me to get to Wheaton to watch than to Loras. Actually, I intend to get out to the famous Rock Bowl to see a game some day ... Just need the right time
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 16, 2014, 10:22:20 PM
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 16, 2014, 09:25:09 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 16, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
Why would the Wheaton Men not host? Since they have a field turf surface, I'm not sure the situation that impacts Messiah and others with grass surfaces would apply.
Not a fan of the Rock Bowl? Well the four teams in that sectional are Wheaton, Wartburg, Loras and Trinity. Wheaton, Loras and Trinity all have strong claims with regards to hosting. But this may be one where geography comes into play. Trinity is not within 500 miles of any of the other schools, all of which are fairly close (in comparison) to each other. Loras being located between Wartburg and Wheaton makes most sense. But I would not be surprised if Wheaton were chosen.
Ah - yes the geography angle would make sense - especially with 2 Iowa teams. But, no, my reasons are more selfish as it would far easier for me to get to Wheaton to watch than to Loras. Actually, I intend to get out to the famous Rock Bowl to see a game some day ... Just need the right time
Then you would seem to be in luck as the interactive brackets (http://www.ncaa.com/interactive-bracket/soccer-men/d3) are indicating that Wheaton is hosting along with Oneonta, Muhlenberg, and Kenyon.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 16, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
STLAWUS the better team won.
Congratulate Amherst. This is not the way we act.
Now hope that they win it all.
Good job Amherst. Man down to a possession team with 15 minutes to play and they advance!
I disagree - the better team lost. With that said, SLU fell victim to the lack of a pure goal scoring threat again. Outside of Gorman few years back, I can't remember the Saints having an out and out striker with a killer instinct for gaol. The '99 team had loads of them, but that was a D1 team on the D3 level. Since then, they have had a ton of offensive minded middies. I hope they find a kid who can create separation up top, has the 1v1 ability, and a knack for the goal - they need it.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 16, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
According to the interactive bracket (http://www.ncaa.com/interactive-bracket/soccer-men/d3) the men's Sectional hosts are: Oneonta St., Wheaton (Ill.), Muhlenberg, and Kenyon.
And now the women's interactive brackets (http://www.ncaa.com/interactive-bracket/soccer-women/d3) are indicating Messiah, Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, and Williams as Sectional hosts.
Can anyone give a breakdown of the sweet sixteen teams? Important players, the way each team prefers to play...etc? Just stirring the pot a bit as we have another week of waiting!
Given the number of OT and especially PK games, it seems remarkable that all 4 sectionals boast two heavyweight matchups. There isn't a weak matchup in any sectional, and some of them are outright compelling. Wish I could see every one of them in person. What a tournament so far.
It has been asked how the number of overtime games and PK's this season compare historically. Well, here you go:
YEAR
| TOTAL
GAMES | OT
GAMES |
PK's
|
1974 | 16 | 5 (31%) | 0 (0%) |
1975 | 16 | 3 (19%) | 0 (0%) |
1976 | 16 | 5 (31%) | 1 (6%) |
1977 | 16 | 1 (6%) | 2 (13%) |
1978 | 16 | 3 (19%) | 1 (6%) |
1979 | 16 | 4 (25%) | 0 (0%) |
1980 | 24 | 9 (38%) | 0 (0%) |
1981 | 24 | 7 (29%) | 1 (4%) |
1982 | 23 | 5 (22%) | 1 (4%) |
1983 | 23 | 3 (13%) | 2 (9%) |
1984 | 23 | 6 (26%) | 3 (13%) |
1985 | 23 | 6 (26%) | 2 (9%) |
1986 | 23 | 5 (22%) | 2 (9%) |
1987 | 23 | 9 (39%) | 7 (30%) |
1988 | 23 | 7 (30%) | 7 (30%) |
1989 | 23 | 7 (30%) | 3 (13%) |
1990 | 31 | 9 (29%) | 4 (13%) |
1991 | 31 | 8 (26%) | 4 (13%) |
1992 | 31 | 8 (26%) | 4 (13%) |
1993 | 31 | 7 (23%) | 4 (13%) |
1994 | 31 | 10 (32%) | 7 (23%) |
1995 | 31 | 7 (23%) | 4 (13%) |
1996 | 31 | 8 (26%) | 4 (13%) |
1997 | 39 | 8 (21%) | 4 (10%) |
1998 | 39 | 11 (28%) | 3 (8%) |
1999 | 43 | 8 (19%) | 3 (7%) |
2000 | 43 | 4 (9%) | 1 (2%) |
2001 | 43 | 14 (33%) | 4 (9%) |
2002 | 43 | 12 (28%) | 6 (14%) |
2003 | 43 | 12 (28%) | 8 (19%) |
2004 | 43 | 9 (21%) | 6 (14%) |
2005 | 56 | 10 (18%) | 5 (9%) |
2006 | 56 | 12 (21%) | 10 (18%) |
2007 | 56 | 14 (25%) | 7 (13%) |
2008 | 57 | 16 (28%) | 8 (14%) |
2009 | 58 | 12 (21%) | 11 (19%) |
2010 | 59 | 17 (29%) | 5 (8%) |
2011 | 60 | 11 (18%) | 5 (8%) |
2012 | 61 | 15 (25%) | 9 (15%) |
2013 | 60 | 12 (20%) | 3 (5%) |
All-Time | 1404 | 339 (24%) | 161 (11%) |
Last 10 Yrs. | 566 | 128 (23%) | 69 (12%) |
2014 | 45 | 12 (27%) | 8 (18%) |
We've had 12 overtime games this year out of 45 total games. That's 27% which is on the high side, but the rate was even higher as recently as 2010 (29%) and 2008 (28%).
Eight games this year have required a penalty shootout. That's 18% of all games and 67% of overtime games. Again, high, but not unusually so.
If instead of looking at the fluctuations of individual years, 5-year averages are considered, the percentage of overtimes games in the past decade and a half has stayed between 22 and 25%. The percentage of overtime games that are subsequently decided by penalty kicks had been less steady.
2007 was a huge year for PK's as well. Maybe not quantity as much as at what stage they took place. Middlebury rode on the back of their keeper Dan Brown and won the National Championship by eliminating Loras in the Final 4 and Trinity for the Championship match by taking the game to PK's. Brown was a beick wall that no team could seem to penatrate.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 16, 2014, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Live Table:
UAA- 3-1-0 Brandeis and UR at 5pm Chicago down 1-0 at Half
Nescac 4-0-1 Bowdoin at 5pm 2 possibly 3 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 2-1-1 F&m at 5pm 1 possibly 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
The NCAC is 4-0 and is guaranteed to get one team in the elite 8...
Technically the NCAC is 2-0-2...
I think Kenyon should get to the final 4, but with two great games on the card it's wide open.
Still see Messiah reaching the final 4.
Wheaton vs Wartburg / Loras vs Trinity... IIAC representing again. I see Wheaton winning this one, but does Trinity get revenge from last year?
Roll the dice on the Oneonta St sectional here too...
Question for the board: Who do you think has a better (notice I didn't say fair) match-up against Messiah in the Elite 8... Tufts or Muhlennberg? Why?
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 17, 2014, 09:19:29 AM
Question for the board: Who do you think has a better (notice I didn't say fair) match-up against Messiah in the Elite 8... Tufts or Muhlennberg? Why?
Hard to say. I think the home-field advantage may be key for Muhlenberg, as their lone loss was on the road at F&M, but if it were at a neutral venue I would give a slight edge to Tufts. Given that the next two rounds are at Muhlenberg, I think it depends on what kind of game it would play out to be. Offensively, I think Tufts is the more likely to score against Messiah. Defensively, I think Muhlenberg might be a bit more solid, while Tufts is plagued by "off days."
The Jumbos seem to have (for the most part) rid themselves of the finishing woes that have plagued them for the last two years. Shapiro seems to have figured out that good things happen when Santos plays (duh). Greenwood has been excellent in goal. I really like Kayne as a player; I still think he should have been first team All-NESCAC over Hoppenot, but I digress.
I have only seen Muhlenberg a few times, but to their credit, Dotzman has an excellent 13 goals in 56 shots. That is a shot percentage of .232, which I think is incredible. Someone used the phrase "offensively challenged" when describing Muhlenberg, but I prefer to think that they are well-balanced and incredibly deep if not as offensive as they should be. They seem to be a very cohesive unit.
Excited to see the two square off on Saturday, which would be a great precursor to Sunday's matchup.
Quote from: St. Larry on November 16, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 16, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
STLAWUS the better team won.
Congratulate Amherst. This is not the way we act.
Now hope that they win it all.
Good job Amherst. Man down to a possession team with 15 minutes to play and they advance!
I disagree - the better team lost. With that said, SLU fell victim to the lack of a pure goal scoring threat again. Outside of Gorman few years back, I can't remember the Saints having an out and out striker with a killer instinct for gaol. The '99 team had loads of them, but that was a D1 team on the D3 level. Since then, they have had a ton of offensive minded middies. I hope they find a kid who can create separation up top, has the 1v1 ability, and a knack for the goal - they need it.
SLU does have a pure out and out striker, but he tore his ACL early in the year in the game against Potsdam. He's a transfer from Syracuse where he played on the team for a year. He's insanely fast and can finish. Team really missed him this year. He's a junior so he'll be back next year.
True.
MS is a stud and can finish.
He will not be able to do it alone however. Other guys must step up.
The boyz had a good season.
The Senior class have a lot to be proud of.
4 trips to the NCAA
2 trips to the Sweet 16
3 Regular season Championships
2 League Tournament Championships
Perfect regular season as freshmen (First since '99)
66-9-8 record.
The Saints will be back.
For sure. 3/4 of this year's back 4 will be back next year. We'll lose our #10 and starting winger but the CAM spot is our most deep and Short played very well on the wing as a freshman. Everyone else is back.
Wheaton vs Wartburg / Loras vs Trinity... IIAC representing again. I see Wheaton winning this one, but does Trinity get revenge from last year?
[/quote]
After watching Loras play this weekend it is clear they have stepped up their performance level and are primed for the Tourney. The Duhawks absolutely throttled the Bluejays of Westminster completely dominating both offense and defense. The GAC match was a more balanced affair, GAC came out and tried to play possession and take advantage of their technical side of the game. For the first 20 they looked to be the better side and in different conditions I think this game plan would have worked more to their advantage, but not on a frozen field turf surface. Brown was held in check by great defending combined with slippery footing. Both teams missed their early breakaway efforts and some "sitters". Pizzello scoring just before half was a big blow to GAC mentally and after Loras scored their 2nd the wind completely left the Gusties sails and the Duhawks controlled the match.
The Trinity match last year was very much the same weather conditions as the GAC match sans the snowy surface. If Loras can come out and find their groove in the first 5 minutes this game will tilt towards the Duhawks, but they will have to keep the Tiger's midfielders in check and impose the Loras game plan. Trinity is a very solid team with some highly skilled players and needs to be corralled. Loras has the skills, size, and the depths to take down the Tigers and I think that's just what will happen.
FYI - game time on Friday night in wheaton is showing clear skies with temps in the 20s. How will that impact Trinity? Surface should be free of snow and ice by then.
Last year Trinity played Loras and it was clear skies and 12 degrees. They didn't seem to be bothered by it to start off because the scored 9 minutes in to the match, but I think that it began to take it's toll on them as time went on. Loras scored 2 in the 2nd to take the win. I hope this proves true again.
Point of contention: While the Amherst coach may receive yellow cards here and there for dissent, I don't understand why folks are so against the boys on the bench. They are more spirited than their opponents (always), standing to shout and cheer for the entire game (they didn't sit on the heated bench nicely provided by SLU), but I'm not sure why people get so upset about it. What's so offensive about an enthusiastic bench?
In the Sweet 16 last year Trinity didn't even warm up outside and did not come out until like five min before the game. Wartburg scored in the first five min of that game. I wonder if they will rethink that strategy this year? Is that what they did for the Loras game the next day as well?
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 17, 2014, 12:19:21 PM
Point of contention: While the Amherst coach may receive yellow cards here and there for dissent, I don't understand why folks are so against the boys on the bench. They are more spirited than their opponents (always), standing to shout and cheer for the entire game (they didn't sit on the heated bench nicely provided by SLU), but I'm not sure why people get so upset about it. What's so offensive about an enthusiastic bench?
I haven't really watched Amherst much, but from an objective observer of the comments on this board it seems the perception is that Amherst's bench might be characterized as "obnoxious" or "out of control" rather than "enthusiastic."
I'm all for benches standing and getting involved in the game. It helps the players on the field, it keeps potential substitutes engaged in the game, and it gives younger guys that might not play much a sense that they're a part of things. Where some benches do cross the line - and again, I've never really seen Amherst so I can't speak to whether they do this - is when it changes from supporting your team or getting fired up to yelling at the opposition, getting on the referee, etc.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 17, 2014, 12:28:44 PM
I'm all for benches standing and getting involved in the game. It helps the players on the field, it keeps potential substitutes engaged in the game, and it gives younger guys that might not play much a sense that they're a part of things. Where some benches do cross the line - and again, I've never really seen Amherst so I can't speak to whether they do this - is when it changes from supporting your team or getting fired up to yelling at the opposition, getting on the referee, etc.
100%
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 17, 2014, 12:28:44 PM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 17, 2014, 12:19:21 PM
Point of contention: While the Amherst coach may receive yellow cards here and there for dissent, I don't understand why folks are so against the boys on the bench. They are more spirited than their opponents (always), standing to shout and cheer for the entire game (they didn't sit on the heated bench nicely provided by SLU), but I'm not sure why people get so upset about it. What's so offensive about an enthusiastic bench?
Where some benches do cross the line - and again, I've never really seen Amherst so I can't speak to whether they do this - is when it changes from supporting your team or getting fired up to yelling at the opposition, getting on the referee, etc.
Spot on, Ryan. I think where Amherst gets frustrating is that, while most coaches would sternly tell a player on the bench not to yell at the ref or question calls loudly, he sort of encourages it, or at least passively lets it go.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 17, 2014, 12:35:27 PM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 17, 2014, 12:28:44 PM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 17, 2014, 12:19:21 PM
Point of contention: While the Amherst coach may receive yellow cards here and there for dissent, I don't understand why folks are so against the boys on the bench. They are more spirited than their opponents (always), standing to shout and cheer for the entire game (they didn't sit on the heated bench nicely provided by SLU), but I'm not sure why people get so upset about it. What's so offensive about an enthusiastic bench?
Where some benches do cross the line - and again, I've never really seen Amherst so I can't speak to whether they do this - is when it changes from supporting your team or getting fired up to yelling at the opposition, getting on the referee, etc.
Spot on, Ryan. I think where Amherst gets frustrating is that, while most coaches would sternly tell a player on the bench not to yell at the ref or question calls loudly, he sort of encourages it, or at least passively lets it go.
Spot on...and add to it the constant chirping at opposing players from the Amherst bench...there's a right way and a wrong way to be "enthusiastic and support your teammates" and Amherst constantly goes "over the line" and the Coaches ignore it and encourage it. Don't even get started about their "maul ball style" of foul you on every play. There is a long standing coaching adage about "respecting your opponent" and Amherst's actions and histrionics during the Serpone era scream (pun intended) of no respect for their opponents. They get results and play the way they are told to play, but it is the way they play and how they hold themselves out to their opponents which makes them the most disliked team in the NESCAC.
Missed NCAA action this weekend due to a terrible flu.
Was curious if anyone can give an overview of the IIAC games (both of Loras and Wartburg).
Just checking the box scores looks like the same impact players for Loras but Wartburg looked like bench was the difference maker.
I picked 12 of the 16 - St Lawrence, Babson, Dickinson, and Calvin all did me wrong...
12 of 16 is excellent especially with all the parity...Hats off to you...
Live Table:
UAA- 4-2-1 1 team in Sweet 16
Nescac 4-1-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
Centennial 3-1-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
Sunyac 3-1-0 2 teams in Sweet 16
IIAC 3-0-1 2 teams in Sweet 16
NCAC 2-0-2 2 teams in Sweet 16
Newmac 1-3-0 Heavily over ranked tams in Regional ranking.
In New England Midd and Wesleyan deserved a better RR. The Newmac and the rankings were a mess.
Did Haverford deserve a 4th CC bid
Luther should have at least been ranked but they did not get any results against Loras or Wartburg
Had Puget Sound not started the year 0-2-1 they would have had a shot at a Pool C as they went 1-0-1 against Whitworth and I was really impressed by Whitworth.
This is a Kenyon College promotional video now on the front of the college website, so most likely done by admissions, but it is pretty cool with soph star Tony Amolo featured. Less than 2 minutes. Well done (although I'm biased).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mooxYdjcNU#t=34
I am really looking forward to all the Sweet 16 matches and I hope the times on Saturday will vary but for the first time in a while I really do not see a bad match on the schedule.
I disagree - the better team lost. With that said, SLU fell victim to the lack of a pure goal scoring threat again. Outside of Gorman few years back, I can't remember the Saints having an out and out striker with a killer instinct for gaol. The '99 team had loads of them, but that was a D1 team on the D3 level. Since then, they have had a ton of offensive minded middies. I hope they find a kid who can create separation up top, has the 1v1 ability, and a knack for the goal - they need it.
[/quote]
Out and out strikers are becoming VERY hard to find. The 90's it seemed like all the top teams had them but starting about 10 years ago teams have relied more heavily on scoring from their midfield thru the run of play or on set pieces and spreading the scoring throughout the team. I remember striker scoring 20 goals some seasons and that is really hard to find these days
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2014, 02:33:25 PM
I picked 12 of the 16 - St Lawrence, Babson, Dickinson, and Calvin all did me wrong...
11 of 16; Bowdoin, MSOE, RU-N, Emory, MSU
F&M over Amherst
Wheaton over Trinity
Messiah over Tufts
Montclair St over OWU
Wheaton over F&M
Messiah over MSU
Messiah over Wheaton
----------------------------------------------
2nd bracket:
11 of 16 in my 2nd one; RU-N, North Park, Calvin, Covenant, MSU
Oneonta St over Amherst
Wheaton over Trinity
Messiah over Tufts
MSU over Calvin
Messiah over Wheaton
Quote from: Homegrown Harry on November 17, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Missed NCAA action this weekend due to a terrible flu.
Was curious if anyone can give an overview of the IIAC games (both of Loras and Wartburg).
Just checking the box scores looks like the same impact players for Loras but Wartburg looked like bench was the difference maker.
Wartburg was place in a snow globe saturday and needed 2nd round PK's to finish of MSOE, they just couldn't get in to a groove in the snow covered field. I didn't see their sunday match.
Loras handled Westminster with little effort in a 2-0 decision. Their finishing wasn't the best and the Westminster keeper went down every 10 minutes for about 3 to 4 minutes of theatrics to try and slow the onslaught.
The Loras v GAC match was very entertaining, GAC was the better side the first 20 minutes, but I think their game plan was the fatal flaw. They seemed to want to control the ball with short passes and possession style play and tried dibbling the Loras "D". This wasn't the right field conditions for that style, very slippery and the Loras "D" just let them possess until they reached the defensive 3rd and picked them off. The game in the air was won by Loras and after they scored their 2nd goal GAC was pretty much done. Loras steam rolled them for about 30 minutes of the 2nd half before GAC decided to throw one one last assault that provided the same end result. I did get to meet a few fellow D3soccer posters which was nice, I just didn't have enough time to sit and talk with them, they were are really good group of guys!
12 out of 16; Rochester, RU-N, Lynchburg, Dominican. Just a few too many upset picks on my end.
Caught the OTs for Catholic/Muhlenberg, Catholic's forward got in behind off a missed clearance w/ 5 to go in the 1st OT and was 1on1 with the Muhlenberg keeper... took a touch around the keeper, got completely laid out, no call. One of the clearest PKs/biggest missed calls I've seen.
I have this funny feeling that this is one of Messiah's best teams but for some reason they will not win it all this year. Just a hunch I guess and odds would look like this
Meesiah 9/5
Trinity 16/1
Wheaton Ill 20/1
Amherst 25/1
F&M 25/1
Oneonta 25/1
Kenyon 30/1
Brandeis 30/1
Loras 30/1
Tufts 30/1
Whitworth 40/1
OWU 40/1
Wartburg 40/1
Muhlenberg 60/1
CNU 60/1
Cortland 75/1
In the wartburg game the 4th official called a hand ball that happened about 40 sec before the goal. The Wartburg players were done celebrating and back to their spot when the 4th official called the center over. It was pretty odd.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 03:39:48 PM
I have this funny feeling that this is one of Messiah's best teams but for some reason they will not win it all this year. Just a hunch I guess and odds would look like this
Meesiah 9/5
Trinity 16/1
Wheaton Ill 20/1
Amherst 25/1
F&M 25/1
Oneonta 25/1
Kenyon 30/1
Brandeis 30/1
Loras 30/1
Tufts 30/1
Whitworth 40/1
OWU 40/1
Wartburg 40/1
Muhlenberg 60/1
CNU 60/1
Cortland 75/1
Whitworth is going to reach the Final 4.... go into the half up 2-0 on Messiah before Payne takes over and scores two, assists one. (2000 all over again for the NWC).
Whitworth beat Wheaton early in the year, but they don't get much cred because of the fanbase traffic. I regret not watching them vs Berry... Will definitely watch them vs CNU.
I would like 10 high fives on CNU at 60/1, and 20 loud chants on F&M at 25/1.... and the Final Four attendance on Messiah at 9/5.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 17, 2014, 02:44:24 PM
This is a Kenyon College promotional video now on the front of the college website, so most likely done by admissions, but it is pretty cool with soph star Tony Amolo featured. Less than 2 minutes. Well done (although I'm biased).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mooxYdjcNU#t=34
"Tony Amolo '17 (Lagos, Nigeria) shows off his soccer skills while discussing life as an International Student at Kenyon College."
He must have been speaking pretty softly because I didn't hear a word...
LOL....Cortland is better than 75/1 but they are playing Messiah so that immediately puts them there. Whitworth is 40/1 because of the immense travel as I liked them also against Covenant but for me their legs will be gone by halftime of the 2nd game if they get there. There are reasons for every team to be where they are. Muhleneberg has home field but maybe one of the weaker sides of the 16. On and on we go
Amolo is a decent player from Berkshire School. I know of a couple Nescac's that passed on him and another couple who could not get him in.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2014, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2014, 02:33:25 PM
I picked 12 of the 16 - St Lawrence, Babson, Dickinson, and Calvin all did me wrong...
11 of 16; Bowdoin, MSOE, RU-N, Emory, MSU
F&M over Amherst
Wheaton over Trinity
Messiah over Tufts
Montclair St over OWU
Wheaton over F&M
Messiah over MSU
Messiah over Wheaton
----------------------------------------------
2nd bracket:
11 of 16 in my 2nd one; RU-N, North Park, Calvin, Covenant, MSU
Oneonta St over Amherst
Wheaton over Trinity
Messiah over Tufts
MSU over Calvin
Messiah over Wheaton
F&M vs SLU (SLU is only team in my Elite 8 I'm missing - I think Brandeis advances now)
Wartburg vs Trinity
Messiah vs Mulhenberg
Kenyon vs Christopher Newport
Kenyon vs Messiah
Trinity vs SLU (Brandeis to break their duck)
Kenyon over Trinitiy
Watched the Mules/Catholic game and was extremely unimpressed with the stream. Lagging, no announcer, difficult to see...anyone know if that was a one-time thing, or if the stream at Muhlenberg is just that bad?
Must be nice in D1 the ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 7 and 6 and 5 schools respectfully into the NCAA D1 tournament. Some of those ACC schools that got At-Large bids are like 11-7-1 and 13-7-2 etc. You lose about half your games and your in because you have a high RPI. With 24 At Large bids and 24 AQ's The ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 15 of the 24 At-Large. That is top heavy.
AGREE...Muhlenberg stream was like watching a game back in 2006 online. Let's all send emails to their SID and watch them do nothing about it
Good luck with that. Their athletics site has to be one of the few remaining self-operated pages in the region, if not the country at this level. Was probably cutting edge a decade ago. Now it's stuck in the dark ages. It surprises me - it's not like they're a weak athletics program. I would've thought they'd have a fancy modern deal just like the rest of the region. And I'm not trying to be cruel, I know better than most that it's a pretty thankless job. Still, it seems like having a modern website would be one of the top priorities for an athletic department these days.
Well that's unfortunate. I just clicked around it a bit and oof. It was like browsing Netscape with MS DOS on one of those red-colored Apple computers found in a late 90s middle school. Brutal. Not much hope for a quality stream if that's how the website operates...Surprised they have one in the first place!
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:13:24 PM
Must be nice in D1 the ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 7 and 6 and 5 schools respectfully into the NCAA D1 tournament. Some of those ACC schools that got At-Large bids are like 11-7-1 and 13-7-2 etc. You lose about half your games and your in because you have a high RPI. With 24 At Large bids and 24 AQ's The ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 15 of the 24 At-Large. That is top heavy.
And 48 teams out of 204 make it vs 61 out of 409....
But the big boys should be the ones getting the bids.... it happens in hoops every year just the same.
Agreed Last Guy and also AGREED that Muhlenberg website is an embarrassment. It makes me wonder if their endowment is at safe levels
Can't someone pull some strings and help them figure out how to improve their stream? We do not need commentators just a handy cameraman
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:37:49 PM
Agreed Last Guy and also AGREED that Muhlenberg website is an embarrassment. It makes me wonder if their endowment is at safe levels
150 million. Not huge, but more than sufficient depending on how it is structured.
Honestly to those SLU fans they were the more deserving winner and out played Amherst but we are forgetting Amherst goal never happens if not for a stupid foul by Copeland on a Amherst player running away from goal and he did not need to dive in just stay low. After the free kick a glaring error by Costello as I felt he should of and was able to dive on that loose ball bouncing around right in front of him.
Quote from: jknezek on November 17, 2014, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:37:49 PM
Agreed Last Guy and also AGREED that Muhlenberg website is an embarrassment. It makes me wonder if their endowment is at safe levels
150 million. Not huge, but more than sufficient depending on how it is structured.
I would guess that's in the upper 1/3 of DIII schools.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2014, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 17, 2014, 02:44:24 PM
This is a Kenyon College promotional video now on the front of the college website, so most likely done by admissions, but it is pretty cool with soph star Tony Amolo featured. Less than 2 minutes. Well done (although I'm biased).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mooxYdjcNU#t=34
"Tony Amolo '17 (Lagos, Nigeria) shows off his soccer skills while discussing life as an International Student at Kenyon College."
He must have been speaking pretty softly because I didn't hear a word...
I just checked this and for some reason on youtube it starts at the 34 sec mark so pull back to the the beginning and that's where he's talking. Or watch directly from front of website if interested.
Mr.Right, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't tell me there is a single NESCAC that the kid wouldn't help. If a couple weren't interested for some other reason like tougher admit standards or already having filled all of their "tip" slots I'll buy it, but he would be
at least a second team All-NESCAC performer easily. Same with the GK. I'm guessing you're playing lukewarm here just to not give in on your prior tiff about Williams' recruiting vs Kenyon (where I supported you btw in regard to Williams).
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:04:35 PM
Amolo is a decent player from Berkshire School. I know of a couple Nescac's that passed on him and another couple who could not get him in.
I guess that's why both the Berkshire kids went ED to Kenyon, LOL. And I'm not sure who could get in or not get in particular schools is something to be putting out on this website, even if you are 100% sure, which I'm guessing you're not. Kenyon has a connection to Berkshire. Maybe that played a role, no?
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 17, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:04:35 PM
Amolo is a decent player from Berkshire School. I know of a couple Nescac's that passed on him and another couple who could not get him in.
I guess that's why both the Berkshire kids went ED to Kenyon, LOL. And I'm not sure who could get in or not get in particular schools is something to be putting out on this website, even if you are 100% sure, which I'm guessing you're not. Kenyon has a connection to Berkshire. Maybe that played a role, no?
Given Kenyon's elite academic status, I doubt that it's
anybody's safety school.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 17, 2014, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 17, 2014, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:37:49 PM
Agreed Last Guy and also AGREED that Muhlenberg website is an embarrassment. It makes me wonder if their endowment is at safe levels
150 million. Not huge, but more than sufficient depending on how it is structured.
I would guess that's in the upper 1/3 of DIII schools.
It's definitely within the upper third of D3 schools. It may even be in the upper quarter.
Compared to Nescac's Kenyon is a SAFETY. Unless its Conn or Trinity CT...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 05:54:22 PM
Compared to Nescac's Kenyon is a SAFETY. Unless its Conn or Trinity CT...
Absolutely false.
I said Amolo is good but not a top top player in D3. He can be shutdown by superior defenders and teams.
I am not going to argue this. It is a soccer board. Tell me NCAC which schools would Kenyon be considered superior. Do not cloud your argument with your Kenyon ties
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 05:56:50 PM
I said Amolo is good but not a top top player in D3. He can be shutdown by superior defenders and teams.
No, you said "decent," and that's after dissing him 3 weeks ago when you were in a pissing match about Williams. Even top players can be stopped (e.g. Vegter didn't score against OWU).
Put it this way. If Amolo was that good the best Nescac's would have TIPPED for him and if Kenyon's standards are compared to most Nescac's than he would have gotten into a Nescac school with a tip.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 05:58:12 PM
I am not going to argue this. It is a soccer board. Tell me NCAC which schools would Kenyon be considered superior. Do not cloud your argument with your Kenyon ties
You're adroit at changing your language and interpretation of language. Who said "superior"? Arguably a safety to Williams and Amherst, but there are students who would choose Kenyon over any of the others, in varying percentages. I know. I personally would put Kenyon solidly in the middle of the pack among NESCAC schools. But please, let's not talk about emotions clouding judgment. We can review the data right from the site here. Remember your first post in your "new NESCAC" thread, with your "new identity"?
Ok back to the games...Here is a poll idea...Who is the most surprising team in the Sweet 16? Also, for the message boards..why are they the most surprising team?
Cortland.
started the season 0-2 gave up 5 goals to SLU and could have folded.
But they lost that game 5-2 by scoring a goal I the last minute.
I said right there that this team had a whole lot of fight in them. They went on to have an amazing season and could crash the party.
Surprising because in a conference normally dominated by Plattsburgh St. and other more familiar names they managed to arrive this season as a regional power. A hard nosed team that can play good soccer.
They are led by an Irishman in the back I believe and some pretty good strikers up top.
Thanks Saint...Did they play SLU at home? I have only seen Cortland for a half so I really would like to know more. Maybe you have not seen them much either but I am betting they are an athletic bunch. WHat is their formation and how do you predict they will play on Saturday?
Did you read my comment on your game vs Amherst? Do you agree or disagree about the foul and Gk points? Just curious what you thought in more detail about that game
Sorry for the non-soccer post but while we're on the topic of Cortland...from this past weekend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImcLkon-Kko#t=76
WOW! I hope we get some of those fireworks during the soccer games!
That is insane....should be a top 3 on sportscenter....Love it
Another question...when was the last time two previous years final 4 teams missed the tournament altogether?
2011, when Lynchburg and Bowdoin failed.
Costello came up huge on a few saves, though. Yeah he probably could have done better but he is not to blame for the result. Amherst had a couple of breakaways that he defended well on. At the end of the day it was the squandered golden opportunities that cost SLU the victory.
I agree Stlawus and I was not saying he was to blame I just felt that the ball literally bounced in front of him and he could of pounced right there than it got tipped to his right and it would have taken guts and excellent athletic ability to maybe knock it away there instead he kind of was ball watching a bit and by that time Bean had roofed it if I can remember
Don't discount Muhlenberg just yet... They are 6-1 against ranked teams this year, and their only loss was a double OT 1-0 loss to F&M. Their defense is excellent, and they usually make the best of their opportunities to score...
They are in arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country too (3 made it to the tournament), and deserve to be where they are. Home field is also key, and they MUST take total advantage of that. It should be a great game, and hoping they make it to play in the Elite 8. I have never seen them play Messiah, which is pretty surprising considering how close they are to each other...
Cortland has been all but written off against Messiah, but I think it may be a much closer game than people think...
Watched the entire Muhlenberg/Catholic game on their online feed Sunday, and other than the "no commentary" it worked flawlessly for us...I know many people on here have complained about the feed, but I had no problems at all with it...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 08:06:08 PM
Another question...when was the last time two previous years final 4 teams missed the tournament altogether?
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 17, 2014, 08:11:24 PM
2011, when Lynchburg and Bowdoin failed.
Actually three 2010 Final Four teams missed the 2011 tournament. Lynchburg went 7-9-4, Bowdoin went 4-7-3, and UW-Oshkosh went 10-6-2. Only Messiah got back to the tournament the next year, and they went one-and-out being upset in the 2nd Round after a first round bye. So only one of four got back to the tournament, and not a single one made the Sweet 16. Pretty incredible.
That really is incredible. The only team out of the 3 I am familiar about in their 2011 seasons was Bowdoin. They had 2 major issues in 2011 their top GK from 2010 graduated and they did not properly replace him and injuries absolutely decimated them. They lost 4 or 5 starters from the 2010 team to injury. Surprisingly they did not even make the 8 team Nescac tournament that year
I am not discounting Muhlenberg but after looking at their results I see one quality win out of conference a 1-0 win over Stevens. Looking at the box score it looked to be even. In conference 2 wins vs Haverford and Dickinson, 1 win vs John Hopkins and Swathmore. After watching Dickinson play Tufts this past weekend I was not really impressed. I thought they were decent sized and athletic in the back but played quite direct and were lacking quality in midfield and solid first touch. Admittedly it is tough to judge teams based on one game and that is only what I saw that game. Also I realize that is Dickinson not Muhlenberg but like Nescac the Centennial is a top 4 conference and with quality conferences top to bottom usually the top 3 to 4 teams are pretty close save for a player or 2, superb GK, organized defense, etc. I think it will be a one goal game and with the home field that may be all Muhlenberg needs. I am very excited for this match. Since I have you here can you give us Nescac folks a look into Muhlenberg. Style, top players, size,GK. etc
Amazing how well the tourney has turned out in terms of almost all of the presumed top 16 teams comprising the Sweet 16. The notables that did not make it (and if they had they would have knocked out top 16 teams) are SLU and Calvin. Emory, Wheaton (MA), Montclair, and Salisbury were other highly ranked teams that didn't make it, but I think most place all of those 4 outside the top 16 now anyway.
D3soccer.com tracked especially well with all 16 still alive ranked in the top 25. NSCAA missed on Tufts and Cortland, but did have 14 of the survivors in their top 17.
With the exception of Messiah (and I agree that Cortland may prove to be a handful), you can make a case that every other game is "too close to call."
Suggestion for the site mid week would be to link some of the coaches press conferences after the games.
Here is one from SLU and Amherst-
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20141116/BLOGS11/141118809
As stated earlier when the bracket first came out, I find it funny and still hard to believe that Dickinson got in over Lycoming from the Mid-Atlantic. Point proven when Dickinson lost in the first round. That makes them what, winless in their last 6 which is about the past month or more? Glad the committee picked a team based on historical performance and conference rather than streaking, upcoming programs such as Lycoming or John Carroll. Such a shame that they wasted a bid.
Lycoming is a well coached team on the rise. I'm sure we will see more of them in the future. And agree there is certainly a case to be made for them to have made it into the dance this year.
Lycoming's SOS .504 is not going to cut it. I think anything under .545 should not be considered for Pool C's. Their first 9 games while maybe helping their confidence certainly killed their SOS. I suppose 1-1 at Geneva is decent I guess? 1-0 over Ursinus is a ok win against a mid to lower level Centennial team. Their win vs UR is the best win of the season and really is the only way this team cracks the Regional Rankings. Frankly, I do not think they deserved to even be ranked based on their weak schedule. Had they won every game they played and then lost to Messiah twice I could see it even with the same SOS but in reality they are not in a good conference so they need to start challenging themselves out of conference and get out of their comfort zone
Good point Mr. Right about the conference Messiah and Lycoming are in. If Messiah was in a tougher conference, they may not be in the position they are in now.
As far as Muhlenberg goes, watch Centennial player of the year #10 Dotzman. The guy is great with the ball and has a great SOG percentage. Other offensive threat #14. EVERY set piece on the offensive side of the field is dangerous for the other team, including throw ins. #6 Joe Adams can throw it into the box from anywhere, and they have taken full advantage of that this year.
If Tufts can keep the ball from going out of bounds on their end, and minimize the fouls on that side of the field it will help them...
Should be a great game to watch and I am looking forward to it...I have never seen fans like Muhlenberg's either, they get pretty crazy!
Yes, the game should be a battle. Tufts beating a tough Wheaton team on Wheaton's home field in Round 2 should help their confidence on Muhlenbergs turf....
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2014, 05:49:44 PM
It's definitely within the upper third of D3 schools. It may even be in the upper quarter.
RE: Muhlenberg's 150 million endowment.
Probably. You'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about endowments. I track a few because my job is in finance and even in D3 you have some serious endowments that dwarf 150 million. There are at least a couple of $1B+ D3 school endowments including at least one NESCAC school and one ODAC school. There are some huge endowments (5B+) in the UAA, but those are different types of schools than Muhlenberg.
There are also a ton of sub 100million endowments and some schools that don't really have a pot to pee in.
Quote from: TheSoccerGod10 on November 17, 2014, 11:34:24 PM
As stated earlier when the bracket first came out, I find it funny and still hard to believe that Dickinson got in over Lycoming from the Mid-Atlantic. Point proven when Dickinson lost in the first round. That makes them what, winless in their last 6 which is about the past month or more? Glad the committee picked a team based on historical performance and conference rather than streaking, upcoming programs such as Lycoming or John Carroll. Such a shame that they wasted a bid.
If historical performance were the case, Rutgers-Camden would have gotten in over Lycoming.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 17, 2014, 10:00:20 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 08:06:08 PM
Another question...when was the last time two previous years final 4 teams missed the tournament altogether?
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 17, 2014, 08:11:24 PM
2011, when Lynchburg and Bowdoin failed.
Actually three 2010 Final Four teams missed the 2011 tournament. Lynchburg went 7-9-4, Bowdoin went 4-7-3, and UW-Oshkosh went 10-6-2. Only Messiah got back to the tournament the next year, and they went one-and-out being upset in the 2nd Round after a first round bye. So only one of four got back to the tournament, and not a single one made the Sweet 16. Pretty incredible.
Very interesting, FW. Just goes to show how difficult it is to sustain a program. Loras has done a great job and it would be phenomenal to see them get back to the final 4 again considering what they lost this year in terms of graduating class and injuries... While I'm not so much a fan of the Loras style of play, I am a big fan of how they've built the program and consistently schedule top teams outside of their conference.
Mr. Right's statement about teams under SOS .545 should not be considered for Pool C is exactly how I feel. He was talking yesterday about the big boys eating up all the at-large bids in D1, and that is the way it should be.
If D3 had an RPI, teams like Haverford, RPI, and Camden are in the dance without question (power conferences are deserving of more bids). Camden goes out and plays quality teams every year. ALWAYS. With that being said, I would be hard pressed to find many teams in the country that played 9 games against teams that were NCAA regionally ranked at one point on another (Brandeis and Chicago come to mind)… I believe there were 4-5 against NCAA ranked teams (obviously once ranked always ranked doesn't apply anymore). The recent box score of 1-0 vs NYU was similar to that of the Brandeis-NYU game.
Yes, they were 2-5 against NCAA tournaments teams, but take into account that they lost to F&M 1-0, CNU 2-0 (1-0 until 87th min) who are both in Sweet 16, lost to Montclair 2x, and Lynchburg…but beat Newark 2x who advanced to the 2nd round (beat Babson). I would certainly love to have seen Camden play teams like Covenant and Emory who made the NCAA tournament (teams that also beat Newark). Maybe we'll see them square off in the near future...
Camden's out of conference schedule this year: CAC Champ, Centennial Finalist, Centennial Semifinalist/Reg Season Champ, ODAC Champ, ODAC Semifinalist, MAC Freedom Finalist, CSAC Semifinalist, , Landmark Seminfinalist. No cupcakes on this grid. The teams that didn't make the playoff had down years: Susquehanna who was in the NCAA the year before AND Swarthmore who typically is a Centennial power. If Swarthmore held off Haverford with less than 5 seconds to go, who knows... maybe Camden gets in because Swat would have been regionally ranked. Also, they beat Dickinson in preseason.
I assumed they would have a year much like ONU after reaching the title game and losing a core of players for the following year. The boys in Camden lost 8 seniors (7 starters) from 2013 NCAA Final 4 team…including their GK (AA and GK of year), 3 starting backs (two all conf), DCM, ACM (2x AA), and flank mid… They started out like shyte this year, but really came together as the season went on.
I know the mentality of their coach… PLAY THE BEST TEAMS AND BEAT THE BEST TEAMS... AND IF YOU DON'T BEAT THEM, YOU DON'T BELONG IN THE DANCE. Never hide behind a fluffy cupcake schedule because that doesn't make the team the best they can be AND it certainly doesn't prepare them for postseason play. With that being said, although they didn't make the NCAA this year (3 years prior), the senior class finished 75-14-8 and had 8 NCAA tournament wins… Camden played 9 of the D3soccer Top 25 in the last 2 seasons. Compete against the best and chase the best... They will be back, just a matter of when.
Camden scrimmaged Messiah in 2010 (tied 2-2) when the 2013 senior class were freshman in their 1st game as college players together (Messiah was on the tail end of 3 peat that year)…fitting that when you fast forward 4 years, they played them when it counted in the National Final...the last game of their career...
http://athletics.camden.rutgers.edu/sports/soccer/men/2010/news/082810.html
Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2014, 05:49:44 PM
It's definitely within the upper third of D3 schools. It may even be in the upper quarter.
RE: Muhlenberg's 150 million endowment.
Probably. You'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about endowments. I track a few because my job is in finance and even in D3 you have some serious endowments that dwarf 150 million. There are at least a couple of $1B+ D3 school endowments including at least one NESCAC school and one ODAC school. There are some huge endowments (5B+) in the UAA, but those are different types of schools than Muhlenberg.
There are also a ton of sub 100million endowments and some schools that don't really have a pot to pee in.
This is a breakdown of endowments, but it includes all divisions and universities http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2013NCSEPublicTablesRespondentsbySizeofEndowmentRevisedJan232014.pdf
Quote from: jknezek on November 18, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2014, 05:49:44 PM
It's definitely within the upper third of D3 schools. It may even be in the upper quarter.
RE: Muhlenberg's 150 million endowment.
Probably. You'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about endowments. I track a few because my job is in finance and even in D3 you have some serious endowments that dwarf 150 million. There are at least a couple of $1B+ D3 school endowments including at least one NESCAC school and one ODAC school. There are some huge endowments (5B+) in the UAA, but those are different types of schools than Muhlenberg.
There are also a ton of sub 100million endowments and some schools that don't really have a pot to pee in.
There are actually quite a few NESCAC schools with endowments over $1 billion. Williams, Amherst, Tufts, Bowdoin, and Middlebury all boast endowments upwards of that number.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 18, 2014, 10:24:37 AM
This is a breakdown of endowments, but it includes all divisions and universities http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2013NCSEPublicTablesRespondentsbySizeofEndowmentRevisedJan232014.pdf
The link you really want is this one:
http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2013NCSEEndowmentMarket%20ValuesRevisedFeb142014.pdf
6> MIT $11 billion
16> Emory $5.8 billion
17> Wash U $5.7 billion
25> Johns Hopkins $3.0 billion
26> Williams $2.0 billion
38> Amherst $1.8 billion
39> Pomona $1.8 billion
44> Univ of Rochester $1.7 billion
46> Case Western $1.7 billion
and plenty more at the top end, plenty at the bottom, too. FWIW Trinity (TX) is the last school in the billion-dollar club (83rd).
Thanks guys. I know the endowment info is public, I just didn't feel like finding it so I only went with the top of my head. Either way, Muhlenberg isn't poor or unstable related to its peers. They have just not devoted resources to improving their athletic department web presence.
The All-NCAC teams were released a short while ago. Can someone explain how Amolo (and Glassman for that matter) only make the Honorable mention team? I don't know how the process works with all conference teams but someone messed up BIG time.
http://www.northcoast.org/sports/msoc/All-NCAC/Files/2014_All-NCAC_Men-s_Soccer.pdf
Quote from: chelseafc30 on November 18, 2014, 12:29:22 PM
The All-NCAC teams were released a short while ago. Can someone explain how Amolo (and Glassman for that matter) only make the Honorable mention team? I don't know how the process works with all conference teams but someone messed up BIG time.
http://www.northcoast.org/sports/msoc/All-NCAC/Files/2014_All-NCAC_Men-s_Soccer.pdf
My general thoughts/explanation for the results of all-conference:
(1) 10 teams aren't going to vote to put players from only 1-2 teams on the first team. If that were the case, then in most seasons OWU would have 7-8 first teamers, and this year it would split 50-50 between Kenyon and OWU. You get funny results with conference politics. I've seen players who failed to get first-team All-NCAC be the first name for first team All-Great Lakes region.
(2) For the second team, other teams get a lot more recognition because the best teams dominated the first team. Also, I know in some situations coaches "rank" their players for who should be up first. So if Glassman/Amolo were players 7-8 from Kenyon, it's hard to convince Wabash - which beat Kenyon - to put an 8th Kenyon player on a team before a single Wabash player is recognized. This is how you get players that wouldn't even play for Kenyon or OWU getting more recognition.
(3) History and age make a difference. Once you make the first team, you're infinitely more likely to get revoted there. Take Morrison - really weak stats this year, but he's dominated the NCAC in years past so he gets on the first team.
Bottom line, it's just the nature of the beast.
chelseafc, now we know why all eleven NESCAC schools took a pass on him ;)
Maybe the snub will give him a little extra juice this weekend.
Some of those picks look like lazy choices based on who had made it in past years. And the lone Kenyon defender who didn't make it on any of the squads may have been the most consistent performer on the Lords' back line.
Kenyon made out fine. 5 on the 1st team and 8 overall, although easily could have been 9 or 10. Not unlike Serpone in the NESCAC, I have a feeling Brown isn't necessarily a favorite of the other NCAC coaches.
At least they got the DPOY right, thank goodness.
Quote from: NESCAC-fanatic00203 on November 17, 2014, 03:32:39 PM
Caught the OTs for Catholic/Muhlenberg, Catholic's forward got in behind off a missed clearance w/ 5 to go in the 1st OT and was 1on1 with the Muhlenberg keeper... took a touch around the keeper, got completely laid out, no call. One of the clearest PKs/biggest missed calls I've seen.
Here is the link to the YouTube video of that foul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9UC_o0AU-Y (Also an example of the poor quality of Muhlenberg's live feed). Absolutely egregious no call by center official,Matthew Richardson. Fans of college soccer can only hope that he never officiates another competitive collegiate match. Not only did he not have the courage to call the BLATANT PK, but he also had no control over the game in the second half. Like most NCAA games, the match got very intense in the second half with both teams going at one another. Catholic had the slight edge even on the road at a somewhat hostile environment. Having been at that match, I can say the field was not in good shape all weekend and I'm sure it will be worse this weekend, so that's something to watch for. With that being said, I like Tufts 2-0 because I think they will be just as effective as Catholic shutting down Muhlenberg's attack, and once they score a goal things will open up and I see them getting some insurance late in the second half. I like Messiah over Cortland St. (3-1) but I think that too will be a competitive game. I think the short, sloppy field will benefit Cortland St. who may be able to get a scrappy goal off a throw/ set piece. Looking forward to seeing how these games unfold!
how in the heck did that not get called??? This is definitely one of the worst blown calls I have seen in 32 years of playing, coaching, and officiating.
Holy Moly. Keeper dodged a bullet there....
Yea that's a PK, straight red, all wrapped up with a bow. Wow.
The only bigger-impact missed call I've seen in D3 in the past few years was the foul that allowed 2010 Messiah to survive the national championship game against Lynchburg. In both cases, tough for the kids on the receiving end to take.
WOW :o
This comes to mind. Pretty much a carbon copy of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJF7s_9UOgw
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 18, 2014, 02:32:00 PM
Yea that's a PK, straight red, all wrapped up with a bow. Wow.
The only bigger-impact missed call I've seen in D3 in the past few years was the foul that allowed 2010 Messiah to survive the national championship game against Lynchburg. In both cases, tough for the kids on the receiving end to take.
I have no connection to neither Messiah nor Lynchbury, but that call still makes me sick. Heartbreaking for Lynchburg.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 18, 2014, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 18, 2014, 10:24:37 AM
This is a breakdown of endowments, but it includes all divisions and universities http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2013NCSEPublicTablesRespondentsbySizeofEndowmentRevisedJan232014.pdf
The link you really want is this one:
http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2013NCSEEndowmentMarket%20ValuesRevisedFeb142014.pdf
6> MIT $11 billion
16> Emory $5.8 billion
17> Wash U $5.7 billion
25> Johns Hopkins $3.0 billion
26> Williams $2.0 billion
38> Amherst $1.8 billion
39> Pomona $1.8 billion
44> Univ of Rochester $1.7 billion
46> Case Western $1.7 billion
and plenty more at the top end, plenty at the bottom, too. FWIW Trinity (TX) is the last school in the billion-dollar club (83rd).
Chicago is 13th at $6.6 billion.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2014, 04:13:24 PM
Must be nice in D1 the ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 7 and 6 and 5 schools respectfully into the NCAA D1 tournament. Some of those ACC schools that got At-Large bids are like 11-7-1 and 13-7-2 etc. You lose about half your games and your in because you have a high RPI. With 24 At Large bids and 24 AQ's The ACC, Big 10 and Pac 12 get 15 of the 24 At-Large. That is top heavy.
To be fair, the #1 seed has 4 losses, the #2 seed has 4 losses, the #3 seed has 4 losses, the #4 seed has 5 losses...this isn't like the d3 level where you have 20 teams with less than 3 losses all ranked in the top 25 (four with 4 losses and one with 5). The #1 seed at the d1 level only won 11 of their 19 games - only 1 d3 team ranked had 8 blemishes (wartburg) and only 10 made the tournament (only one as an at-large selection, Rochester).
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 18, 2014, 02:32:00 PM
Yea that's a PK, straight red, all wrapped up with a bow. Wow.
The only bigger-impact missed call I've seen in D3 in the past few years was the foul that allowed 2010 Messiah to survive the national championship game against Lynchburg. In both cases, tough for the kids on the receiving end to take.
That was awful.
This one may be even more blatant - the ref didn't even try to disguise it by giving a corner.
What makes is worse is the fact he was in a great position on the field to make the call. Apparently the AR has no sack either... Either way, simple call to award Catholic the PK.
Lynchburg call also makes me sick.... they were 2 steps away from going up 2-0, then the GK serves that long ball with no intention other than to clear it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACWWeaD0x18
Awful non call. God that keeper looks incredibly slow and clumsy in that play. That video feed actually looks better than the one Muhlenberg had going this past weekend. If that is the quality of the stream I can live with that.
Poll Question #2....Of the 8 matches how many will go to Pk's?
Answer: Because of all the parity this year my guess is 3.
Who is the most surprising team in the Sweet 16? Also, for the message boards..why are they the most surprising team?
Can anyone find any other post game presser's like the one I included from Amherst and SLU? I am a big fan of hearing the coaches and players after winning and losing. Like the presser for Amherst and SLU obviously Durocher and Hunt and Provost were depleted and disappointed. Serpone was very complimentary of SLU in his and Bull and Owen were also very humble. Had Amherst lost it might have looked a bit different
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 18, 2014, 02:32:00 PM
Yea that's a PK, straight red, all wrapped up with a bow. Wow.
The only bigger-impact missed call I've seen in D3 in the past few years was the foul that allowed 2010 Messiah to survive the national championship game against Lynchburg. In both cases, tough for the kids on the receiving end to take.
Here's something interesting from that play that most people may not know about. A CBS Sports video crew was at midfield on the OPPOSITE side of the fans and from where the game video was shot. CBS was there to shoot clips for their Fall Championship special that would be shown a few weeks later over the holidays. The CBS video was at ground level and directly in line with what the ref saw (you can see the ref in the clip). And from that angle, the play looks like 2 players jumping up with no contact - and no foul. I've only seen the clip a couple of times - once when it first aired and a second time after I DVRd it. Been looking for it on YouTube and have never found it again.
That was just one of several amazing plays from that game: the Lynchburg goal was an upper 90 shot from 20+ yards, the save by Messiah's goalie in OT off a header and of course Pezon's clinical finish on the game-winner.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 18, 2014, 04:37:13 PM
they were 2 steps away from going up 2-0, then the GK serves that long ball with no intention other than to clear it...
Say what you want about the foul but you are dead wrong when you say Berry had no intention other than to clear it. Lynchburg found themselves pressing for that 2nd goal and left themselves a little exposed in the back. Jake realized this and quickly played the ball deep hoping to take advantage. I don't think he was expecting to have an assist on that play but he was looking to counter. Was it a foul? Let's just say I would have called it if I were a referee. But please don't let that non-call tarnish some other very good performances. A call did not go their way but Lynchburg had every opportunity to win this game in the final minutes or in overtime.
Something most people forget is Pezon's game winning goal in OT. Lynchburg was in attendance the day before while Messiah was playing Wisconsin Oshkosh in the semis (some of their players can be seen in the lower right (in the stands) at the beginning of this video. Pezon scores on a breakaway going near post.
Geoff Pezon's Goal Against Oshkosh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8w5YZWvXI
I am certain the Lynchburg GK remembered this because he starts creeping near post when Pezon breaks away in OT. So Geoff goes far post this time.
Geoff Pezon's Goal Against Lynchburg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8q3uGQFAE
You could also just argue the GK from Lynchburg was out of position....therefore a good portion of the goal was open.
yet everyone forgets that Lynchburg was down 1-0 to Bowdoin in the 87th minute in the semi-final. Bowdoin had been outplaying them the whole game. Lynchburg scored off a short throw in and defender mistake to tie the game. They won it in OT
are we just talking games that should have won now.... i'm thinking CNU vs Messiah with the savior JD Binger near the death in 2008...
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 18, 2014, 10:23:59 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 18, 2014, 04:37:13 PM
they were 2 steps away from going up 2-0, then the GK serves that long ball with no intention other than to clear it...
Say what you want about the foul but you are dead wrong when you say Berry had no intention other than to clear it. Lynchburg found themselves pressing for that 2nd goal and left themselves a little exposed in the back. Jake realized this and quickly played the ball deep hoping to take advantage. I don't think he was expecting to have an assist on that play but he was looking to counter. Was it a foul? Let's just say I would have called it if I were a referee. But please don't let that non-call tarnish some other very good performances. A call did not go their way but Lynchburg had every opportunity to win this game in the final minutes or in overtime.
Something most people forget is Pezon's game winning goal in OT. Lynchburg was in attendance the day before while Messiah was playing Wisconsin Oshkosh in the semis (some of their players can be seen in the lower right (in the stands) at the beginning of this video. Pezon scores on a breakaway going near post.
Geoff Pezon's Goal Against Oshkosh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8w5YZWvXI
I am certain the Lynchburg GK remembered this because he starts creeping near post when Pezon breaks away in OT. So Geoff goes far post this time.
Geoff Pezon's Goal Against Lynchburg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8q3uGQFAE
attempting to clear and hail mary is relative in this situation... Berry just smashed it into the area where he hoped a player would be....
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 18, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Who is the most surprising team in the Sweet 16? Also, for the message boards..why are they the most surprising team?
I will say 2, Mr. Right....
Those two will be F&M/Oneonta St... and Kenyon/OWU...
Wchandy, FW, Christan, Falconer:
For all the clips that Messiah has on youtube... how is the hero Blossey with his PK saves from 08 not on there???
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 18, 2014, 11:25:43 PM
yet everyone forgets that Lynchburg was down 1-0 to Bowdoin in the 87th minute in the semi-final. Bowdoin had been outplaying them the whole game. Lynchburg scored off a short throw in and defender mistake to tie the game. They won it in OT
I did forget that, Mr. Right. I also forgot how weak of a goal Messiah scored vs UWO in the semi-final after seeing that clip on youtube... head scratcher... Can't take away anything from Pezon because he was a beast for those Falcons, but holy chit... if you lose the ball in the offensive third, you can't get countered and gutted like that... #18 stepping to the ball like that is like me yelling at my son in U-9s for the same mistake....
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 19, 2014, 03:12:15 AM
For all the clips that Messiah has on youtube... how is the hero Blossey with his PK saves from 08 not on there???
I haven't found a video which shows Nick's performance alone, but Cory Furman put this video together to celebrate the men and women after both winning the NC in 2008. It contains all three of Blossey's save.
Messiah College Soccer 2008 National Championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kda6u_Y-W10
Elite 8 Predictions:
Trinity TX
Wartburg
CNU
OWU
Tufts
Messiah
Oneonta
Amherst
I wish on Saturday we could of had a couple night games to split the madness up. We are left to make a tough choice on what game to follow online.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 09:10:06 AM
Elite 8 Predictions:
Trinity TX
Wartburg
CNU
OWU
Tufts
Messiah
Oneonta
Amherst
I like your picks Mr Right, but you misspelled Loras at the top there ;)
Haha....That might be the best game of the weekend. I am rooting for Trinity TX to win it all. This brings me to another Poll question...
If your team has already been eliminated who would you like to see be the NCAA D3 Champion
Tufts and Wheaton MA post game interviews after R32 match
http://www.gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/201411167e0g8y
Anyone know if Muhlenberg did play-by-play/commentary last weekend for the 1st round game they did not play in? Or did they just stream the video?
They streamed a horrible video with no commentary all weekend
You should get the Messiah boys to do both games with their video....... :) :) Maybe the SID can be persuaded
I don't think they did PBP for their own game, so I doubt they did it for the game they didn't play in. But I could be remembering a different pod.
Quote from: wchandy22 on November 18, 2014, 10:23:59 PM
Say what you want about the foul but you are dead wrong when you say Berry had no intention other than to clear it. Lynchburg found themselves pressing for that 2nd goal and left themselves a little exposed in the back. Jake realized this and quickly played the ball deep hoping to take advantage. I don't think he was expecting to have an assist on that play but he was looking to counter. Was it a foul? Let's just say I would have called it if I were a referee. But please don't let that non-call tarnish some other very good performances. A call did not go their way but Lynchburg had every opportunity to win this game in the final minutes or in overtime.
Really? You're trying to claim he intentionally played the ball into the box?
The only intentional action on the play was him getting to the ball before the Lynchburg player. If it had shanked out of touch he would have been happy.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 09:10:06 AM
Elite 8 Predictions:
Trinity TX
Wartburg
CNU
OWU
Tufts
Messiah
Oneonta
Amherst
F&M
Brandeis
Wartburg
Trinity
Messiah
Muhlenberg
Kenyon
CNU
Did anyone on the forum watch Trinity vs CNU earlier in the year? They posted a busted link and we were robbed of a quality game...
I've decided on watching:
Oneonta St vs F&M and Tufts vs Mules. I assume I'll be able to watch Messiah again, so I want to see how they will match up against their potential opponent. I'll be able to then catch the OWU-Kenyon OT. After that I DON'T want to watch Amherst vs. Brandeis, so CNU vs Whitworth is my back-up plan for 1:30 game.
Have to remember that Muhlenberg's stream is awful and if the regular season is any indication of Oneonta stream we could all be in trouble. At least we know Kenyon pod will have good video with a really annoying announcer that must be muted. All these factors could sway which game I watch.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 09:57:44 AM
Haha....That might be the best game of the weekend. I am rooting for Trinity TX to win it all. This brings me to another Poll question...
If your team has already been eliminated who would you like to see be the NCAA D3 Champion
Gotta say I'm pulling for Wheaton (IL). I said it earlier but they play soccer the way soccer should be played: technical passing/movement, individual skill mixed in with great teamwork, anticipating not reacting, hard in for tackles but not dirty. I like to see that style rewarded with results, plus it'll make me feel a little better about being knocked out by them.
When CNU is on-point, they are tough to beat. I think they are similar to Wheaton in terms of style and skill.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 09:57:44 AM
Haha....That might be the best game of the weekend. I am rooting for Trinity TX to win it all. This brings me to another Poll question...
If your team has already been eliminated who would you like to see be the NCAA D3 Champion
You may be the only person in the country not associated with Trinity rooting for us :-) welcome to the bandwagon, there's plenty of room ...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 19, 2014, 11:06:13 AM
When CNU is on-point, they are tough to beat. I think they are similar to Wheaton in terms of style and skill.
Still trying to figure out how Trinity put five goals on 'em...
I really respect Paul McGinlay as a coach and person. Trinity over the years have really been unlucky in the NCAA tournament and I want to see them in it until the end
I am picking the upset of the year on Saturday with Cortland coming out on top in a much closer than anticipated match against Messiah...
F&M
Brandeis
Wartburg
Trinity
Cortland
Muhlenberg
Kenyon
CNU
Since you picked Cortland and seem to be the only one to pick this upset..Give us totals on shots, corners, SOG, fouls. etc? I have a hunch Messiah might stumble but not until the Final 4 possibly Elite 8.
Interesting stats for the Tufts/Muhlenberg game from the Tufts preview:
"Both teams have given up a mere 11 goals this entire season. Offensively things aren't that much different. The Jumbos have scored 39 goals this season, the Mules 40."
Pretty evenly matched if we're going off statistics. This is gonna be a great one!
Just for kicks, I'm gonna say Oneonta and Cortland both make it to the final.
Has 2 teams from the same conference ever made it to the NCAA final before?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 10:32:14 AM
You should get the Messiah boys to do both games with their video....... :) :) Maybe the SID can be persuaded
Messiah has separate men's and women's play-by-play/commentary teams. In the past, Messiah has done a radio webcast for the travelling team (men or women) and streaming video (with audio) for the hosting team (men or women).
But more to your suggestion, the men's broadcast team has for some away tournament games done play-by-play/commentary for the streaming video feed of the host school (for the Messiah game that the host school was only going to stream without audio since they weren't playing in that game). I'll have to ask if something is in the works.
I would like to see Wheaton vs. anyone but Messiah in the final. I have no affiliation to Wheaton, but they play decent ball and I am tired of Messiah... They have turned into the Mount Union of D3 college football.
Quote from: Golden_Fan on November 19, 2014, 11:47:03 AM
Just for kicks, I'm gonna say Oneonta and Cortland both make it to the final.
Has 2 teams from the same conference ever made it to the NCAA final before?
Well then I am gonna go with Muhlenberg and F&M... :)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 11:38:51 AM
Since you picked Cortland and seem to be the only one to pick this upset..Give us totals on shots, corners, SOG, fouls. etc? I have a hunch Messiah might stumble but not until the Final 4 possibly Elite 8.
Mr. Right, it's just a hunch, just a little earlier than yours...
In my opinion, stats really do not matter as much at this point in the tournament anyway.
ANYTHING can happen, and it probably will.
Case in point Catholic could have just as easily been in the Sweet 16 instead of Muhlenberg if that call was made in the box awarding a PK in the second OT...
Quote from: CentennialFan on November 19, 2014, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: Golden_Fan on November 19, 2014, 11:47:03 AM
Just for kicks, I'm gonna say Oneonta and Cortland both make it to the final.
Has 2 teams from the same conference ever made it to the NCAA final before?
Well then I am gonna go with Muhlenberg and F&M... :)
In that case... I'll go Amherst vs Tufts haha.
http://mcubed.net/ncaa/soccmd3/index.shtml
There hasn't been a final four with teams from the same conference. Off the top of my head it was close in 2011 when Montclair St made it and Rutgers-Camden lost to Oneonta St in the Elite 8 in 2OT. There could be a time when a NESCAC school was eliminated in the elite 8 in another region, while one made the final four.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 09:11:04 AM
I wish on Saturday we could of had a couple night games to split the madness up. We are left to make a tough choice on what game to follow online.
The Wheaton Sectional final will be Saturday night at 5:00. Trinity-Loras winner from Friday takes on Wartburg or Wheaton.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 19, 2014, 12:08:35 PM
I would like to see Wheaton vs. anyone but Messiah in the final. I have no affiliation to Wheaton, but they play decent ball and I am tired of Messiah... They have turned into the Mount Union of D3 college football.
I should've listened to my son, he said "those guys looked nice, but if they aren't cheering for the Duhawks are they still nice? No, Charlie, no they are not!
"Tolerance is a virtue that will serve you well in life son, just not today"
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 11:22:44 AM
I really respect Paul McGinlay as a coach and person. Trinity over the years have really been unlucky in the NCAA tournament and I want to see them in it until the end
Wouldn't it be ironic for Trinity to make the finals again after missing it the last 6 years when it was in their own backyard in San Antonio - and they were the host school
I was thinking that same thing as I was filling out my bracket. I wonder how much pressure they felt under during that stretch. I kept thinking one of those years that they'd eventually pull it off, but it never happened.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 19, 2014, 02:03:19 PM
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 19, 2014, 12:08:35 PM
I would like to see Wheaton vs. anyone but Messiah in the final. I have no affiliation to Wheaton, but they play decent ball and I am tired of Messiah... They have turned into the Mount Union of D3 college football.
I should've listened to my son, he said "those guys looked nice, but if they aren't cheering for the Duhawks are they still nice? No, Charlie, no they are not!
"Tolerance is a virtue that will serve you well in life son, just not today"
;D
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on November 19, 2014, 12:08:35 PM
I would like to see Wheaton vs. anyone but Messiah in the final. I have no affiliation to Wheaton, but they play decent ball and I am tired of Messiah... They have turned into the Mount Union of D3 college football.
Or the Whitewater - just depends on which decade you're referencing...
We've seen some people's predictions already.... I'm curious to hear who everyone's F4 predictions will be. Who wants to get us started?
I refuse to either tempt fate by jinxing OWU or pick against them, but I think Christopher Newport falls to the winner of OWU/Kenyon. CNU is really talented, but they've been crazy inconsistent and playing four straight quality opponents might be too much for them. Fun fact: not to to bury the lead for my preview, but Ohio Wesleyan has never - I'll repeat, never - lost to the same team twice in one season under Jay Martin.
For the other sections, I'll take Oneonta, Wheaton and Messiah.
Quote from: CentennialFan on November 19, 2014, 12:26:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 11:38:51 AM
Since you picked Cortland and seem to be the only one to pick this upset..Give us totals on shots, corners, SOG, fouls. etc? I have a hunch Messiah might stumble but not until the Final 4 possibly Elite 8.
Mr. Right, it's just a hunch, just a little earlier than yours...
In my opinion, stats really do not matter as much at this point in the tournament anyway.
ANYTHING can happen, and it probably will.
Case in point Catholic could have just as easily been in the Sweet 16 instead of Muhlenberg if that call was made in the box awarding a PK in the second OT...
I was just kidding and trying to get you to guess stats with the Cortland pick. Since you are no fun I will do it for you
SHOTS SOG CK FOULS
Messiah 23 11 7 9
Cortland St 8 3 4 17
Final 4 prediction:
Oneonta
Wheaton
Messiah
Kenyon
Don't go out on a limb there
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: CentennialFan on November 19, 2014, 12:26:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2014, 11:38:51 AM
Since you picked Cortland and seem to be the only one to pick this upset..Give us totals on shots, corners, SOG, fouls. etc? I have a hunch Messiah might stumble but not until the Final 4 possibly Elite 8.
Mr. Right, it's just a hunch, just a little earlier than yours...
In my opinion, stats really do not matter as much at this point in the tournament anyway.
ANYTHING can happen, and it probably will.
Case in point Catholic could have just as easily been in the Sweet 16 instead of Muhlenberg if that call was made in the box awarding a PK in the second OT...
I was just kidding and trying to get you to guess stats with the Cortland pick. Since you are no fun I will do it for you
SHOTS SOG CK FOULS
Messiah 23 11 7 9
Cortland St 8 3 4 17
But even with those lopsided numbers Cortland could still win 1-0 :D :D Look what happened in the Centennial tournament with #4F&M and Haverford, with Haverford coming out on top 2-0 in that one...Still gonna be a great weekend to watch the 2 games at Muhlenberg, and hoping to attend at least 1 of them...The fans up there are almost as fun to watch as the game itself...
Here's a Final 4 prediction I am sure is a one of a kind
F&M
Loras
Muhlenburg
CNU
These 16 are really strong sides, I truly think any one of the teams left is capable of knocking their perspective opponents off.
I'm one Messiah fan who regards Lynchburg as the real national champion for 2010. If there exists a video from another angle showing that there wasn't actually a foul leading to the tying goal, I haven't seen it. A few people who saw it live aren't certain there should have been a call (including people who are quick to admit when the Falcons benefit from a blown call), so I leave just a little room for doubt in their minds--but not in mine, since I wasn't there and I can only go with the publicly available footage. I also agree that the consequences of that (probable) blown call are as large as they get--I'd put it up there with the "hand of God" non-call in the World Cup.
However, the non-PK/straight red for the keeper in that Muhlenburg-Catholic game is even more egregious, IMO. I can't imagine any angle from which that's not a must call. The consequences weren't as big, since it wasn't the national final, but it's even worse. Players get hurt when those kinds of calls aren't being made, not usually when guys initiate a bump to get some space. There was a similar play in the tournament in 2002, when Messiah's striker Matt Bills was pulled down--not "taken down" (as the Hopkins web site has it) or tripped, but actually pulled down--by the keeper for Johns Hopkins. That should also have been a straight red on the keeper, but if memory serves it was either a yellow and a PK or just a PK. Bills made the PK and that was the only score for the game: http://www.hopkinssports.com/sports/m-soccer/recaps/111302aaa.html.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 19, 2014, 11:05:23 PM
I refuse to either tempt fate by jinxing OWU or pick against them, but
Fun fact: not to to bury the lead for my preview, but Ohio Wesleyan has never - I'll repeat, never - lost to the same team twice in one season under Jay Martin.
Well, I managed to inhibit a knee-jerk reaction for almost 12 hours (improvement), but, alas, I am weak...and competitive...and superstitious. Just not able to turn a blind eye, especially given the utilization of emphatics. So, I would present...
A) As recently as 2012, OWU lost to DePauw in the regular season 3-2 and lost a PK shootout to DePauw in the NCAC tournament final. And also lost to Depauw 4-2 in the 2011 NCAC final. So actually THREE losses in a row inside of a year. And ALL of them at the Jay Martin Soccer Complex. If this doesn't count on the technicality of a PKs game "loss" going into the books as a tie, then consider...
B) As recently as
this season, OWU has so far played two teams twice (Calvin and Kenyon) for a total of 4 games and has
won exactly none, going 0-2-2...unless of course we
do count prevailing in PKs as a win.
OWU certainly is good enough to win a national title or at a minimum advance from the sectional. That said, this is OWU's comparatively weakest team in 4 years and Kenyon's strongest team in 4 years. Should be a great one.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 20, 2014, 09:56:19 AM
Here's a Final 4 prediction I am sure is a one of a kind
F&M
Loras
Muhlenburg
CNU
These 16 are really strong sides, I truly think any one of the teams left is capable of knocking their perspective opponents off.
Muhlenberg has to get past Tufts and Messiah....... IMHO, I really don't see that happening....... Those are 2 great teams.
I do agree that anyone of the 16 teams can make a run and win it......
I can't decide who would give Messiah a better game. I'm leaning towards Tufts simply because of the weapons they have offensively...then again I'm not intimately familiar with Muhlenberg so...
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 20, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
I can't decide who would give Messiah a better game. I'm leaning towards Tufts simply because of the weapons they have offensively...then again I'm not intimately familiar with Muhlenberg so...
Tufts is unlikely to beat Messiah in a fully open shootout type of game. The question is whether they can be air-tight defensively AND still be dynamic and dangerous offensively. Muhlenberg is going to play very tight defensively. The question for the Mules is whether they wil be able to score.
And Brother Flounder, would you like Muhlenberg's chances (or Tufts') if you knew ahead of time that Cortland was going to upset Messiah? Doubt that's going to happen but there are scenarios that could work for all these teams and part of the excitement is that none of us know for sure what is going to play out.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 20, 2014, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 20, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
I can't decide who would give Messiah a better game. I'm leaning towards Tufts simply because of the weapons they have offensively...then again I'm not intimately familiar with Muhlenberg so...
Tufts is unlikely to beat Messiah in a fully open shootout type of game. The question is whether they can be air-tight defensively AND still be dynamic and dangerous offensively. Muhlenberg is going to play very tight defensively. The question for the Mules is whether they wil be able to score.
And Brother Flounder, would you like Muhlenberg's chances (or Tufts') if you knew ahead of time that Cortland was going to upset Messiah? Doubt that's going to happen but there are scenarios that could work for all these teams and part of the excitement is that none of us know for sure what is going to play out.
Well, that is a difficult question because I haven't researched them and know little about them. Maybe you can fill me in on Cortland, because, I think any team can get hot now, and even with some luck, and win it.
Regarding Tufts v. Muhlenberg, I think Tufts has a very diverse offensive attack and has picked up their scoring lately so they make it somewhat difficult to defend. I thought Dickenson had a strong defense and an excellent center back but Tufts was able to score twice....
Notwithstanding, I wouldn't bet my house on any of these games at this stage. i will just sit back and enjoy.......
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 20, 2014, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 19, 2014, 11:05:23 PM
I refuse to either tempt fate by jinxing OWU or pick against them, but
Fun fact: not to to bury the lead for my preview, but Ohio Wesleyan has never - I'll repeat, never - lost to the same team twice in one season under Jay Martin.
Well, I managed to inhibit a knee-jerk reaction for almost 12 hours (improvement), but, alas, I am weak...and competitive...and superstitious. Just not able to turn a blind eye, especially given the utilization of emphatics. So, I would present...
A) As recently as 2012, OWU lost to DePauw in the regular season 3-2 and lost a PK shootout to DePauw in the NCAC tournament final. And also lost to Depauw 4-2 in the 2011 NCAC final. So actually THREE losses in a row inside of a year. And ALL of them at the Jay Martin Soccer Complex. If this doesn't count on the technicality of a PKs game "loss" going into the books as a tie, then consider...
B) As recently as this season, OWU has so far played two teams twice (Calvin and Kenyon) for a total of 4 games and has won exactly none, going 0-2-2...unless of course we do count prevailing in PKs as a win.
OWU certainly is good enough to win a national title or at a minimum advance from the sectional. That said, this is OWU's comparatively weakest team in 4 years and Kenyon's strongest team in 4 years. Should be a great one.
My facts are correct. Calling penalties a "technicality" actually gets it wrong. Labeling a penalty shootout a loss is incorrect both in how the NCAA labels these games and in actual fact, because you don't lose the
game, you lose the
shootout. That's why every penalty "loss" is considered a draw, with one team advancing via penalty shootout. The sole exception is the national championship game, because that (according to the NCAA) requires a "loser." So, if Kenyon advances on penalties Saturday, that record would remain.
As for OWU, in 2011 they lost to DePauw in the conference championship but beat them in the regular season. In 2012 OWU lost to DePauw in the regular season and drew in the conference tournament. My point being, no team has won - not advanced on penalties - twice against OWU in the same season. Notice I said "season," not calendar year, so trying to use the 2011 and 2012 seasons together to make your point doesn't really work.
You're absolutely correct on results against Calvin and Kenyon (0-2-2), but that doesn't change the underlying point I was making. That is, it's very difficult to beat the same team twice in one season. It's even harder to go through three games against another strong team without taking a loss - ask Amherst about that. Now I'm not saying Kenyon can't or won't do it, as I think they're as well equipped as anyone this side of Messiah, but facts remain facts and the
fact is that Ohio Wesleyan has never
lost two games to one team in one season under Jay Martin. Whether that's still true after Saturday remains to be seen.
Yes, I'm well aware of what you're doing there, and that's why I anticipated your response. You're making something bigger than it is, on purpose of course, while diminishing equally compelling data. A couple of points. The sample size for what you want to be the key archival/psychological find for this game by definition is small. And as you say, your point applies to virtually all teams in all sports. It's hard to beat good teams several times, but then you are implying there is some even more extra aspect about OWU's run in this regard under Jay Martin, and some even greater significance in this instance. Clearly, you think it is a big deal beyond the norm, so you must have some theory about it. His peerless coaching? Karma? Dominant players for years against schools that have not had any similar significant stretches of excellence? What exactly? In other words, what really is your point? Glossing over the draws also has the effect of discounting them. In terms of this rivalry OWU of course has dominated but in the national title year of 2011 when Kenyon wasn't particularly good the Lords led 1-0 at Roy Rike late into the 2nd half, earned an away draw in 2012, and earned another away draw in 2013.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 20, 2014, 02:14:04 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of what you're doing there, and that's why I anticipated your response. You're making something bigger than it is, on purpose of course, while diminishing equally compelling data. A couple of points. The sample size for what you want to be the key archival/psychological find for this game by definition is small. And as you say, your point applies to virtually all teams in all sports. It's hard to beat good teams several times, but then you are implying there is some even more extra aspect about OWU's run in this regard under Jay Martin, and some even greater significance in this instance. Clearly, you think it is a big deal beyond the norm, so you must have some theory about it. His peerless coaching? Karma? Dominant players for years against schools that have not had any similar significant stretches of excellence? What exactly? In other words, what really is your point? Glossing over the draws also has the effect of discounting them. In terms of this rivalry OWU of course has dominated but in the national title year of 2011 when Kenyon wasn't particularly good the Lords led 1-0 at Roy Rike late into the 2nd half, earned an away draw in 2012, and earned another away draw in 2013.
You're blowing this way out of proportion, and frankly I wasn't trying to imply anything about Kenyon or its rivalry with OWU. My train of thought was this: "It's hard to beat a team twice in the same season, and if Kenyon beats OWU again then that's one heck of a team." So, while I was looking at every team's history to write the piece for the website, I pulled the OWU media guide and noticed nobody had ever done it before. I figured, rightfully so considering the circumstances, that it was an interesting thing to point out when considering predictions about the weekend.
It's not meant to be an "archival/psychological find," whatever that means. I highly doubt the guys playing Saturday will read this, but clearly it's a fact - again, a fact, not an opinion - that holds some interest for fans considering it has you up in arms.
Bottom line, to answer your question directly, my point was that it was a very interesting fact that has some bearing on this game, especially because Kenyon is looking to do something no team has ever done before. From a personal perspective, I suppose you could say that, if these teams seem to be as close as they've been in two games, maybe OWU gets the bounce this time. If not, then it really just speaks to the quality of this Kenyon team.
Look, this is a message board where we get together to discuss Division III soccer. I made a highly relevant, factually accurate statement about two teams that happen to be playing in the Sweet Sixteen on Saturday. That's all. If you have opinions you'd like to express, as you did in the last half of your post, I'm happy to talk about how you think the game will play out or about the history between Kenyon and Ohio Wesleyan. But really, I was just surprised/impressed by what I found and I included it. End of story.
Listen, I love your stuff, even most of the OWU-Kenyon stuff, but you've done this same exact type of thing in the lead-up to all 3 of these games, and always very much in OWU's favor. You've made a point of highlighting, underlining and "let me repeat" 3 times now on this one. Since you made it a big deal it seems you would offer your explanation of the phenomenon. You badly want your team to win. I get it. On that we both agree.
NCAC, as an outside observer, I really think he was just stating a cool little fact. I think the average DIII fan reading that would think "Oh, that's interesting". Not "Oh man, that guy is such a OWU homer". Knowing very little about OWU or Kenyon, I frankly thought his East Sectional preview was pretty solid in terms of being pretty non-biased. Particularly because he put that specific part in the section on "Why They Will Advance", not the general knowledge about the team. I felt like he gave Kenyon just as much love in that same section.
In terms of explaining the stat? I think you probably hit most of the highlights, it's some combination of talent, coaching, sustained success, etc. And I truly think it's in part psychological, as from both playing and coaching I've found that to play a huge role in things. I wasn't trying to jab at Kenyon or anything, those points are made more in an attempt to guess what the mental state of any team might be heading into a game.
For example, when I played Kenyon was the only team that made me think if we both played our best, they could still pull out a win. Even though we won almost all of those games, they were usually competitive and tight, and that's something that always stuck out to me when I prepared. So from the other side, I assume the same thing would play a role.
I think your other point may be a lack of objectivity, which is probably true. That's really why I try to keep it factual when it comes to OWU games unless it's a critical point, and a broad historical fact is usually free from bias. The second viewpoint - Kenyon has controlled both games to an extent, OWU is 0-2-2 against the best two teams they've played, is definitely also relevant. I tried to really hit that in the article with the "why Kenyon will win" section.
Transitioning to actual thoughts on the game, any word on Kenyon's injuries? Seemed like they definitely lost a little something without a few of the bigger guys in the game against Thomas More.
This is way more entertaining than Mr. Right vs. Off Pitch....
8-)
Sherlock, I hope this will be my last post on this. I think RH is fantastic. Seriously. I think I posted sentiments very much the same last year. His articles and insights, very similar to Cristan Shirk, are always very well done, thoughtful, entertaining, and well written. I do seriously do like his stuff a lot and I imagine if we had a couple of drinks at a bar we would have a blast and a lot of laughs. At any rate, I think very highly of him, based on the little I know about his OWU career and from this site. That said, he was a decorated player for OWU where they are very much a family and Kenyon has been and is a real rival. A little bias is to be expected. I was reading what he wrote, published in a post before the article came out, and underscored there as well, in the context of his posts in the lead up to all 3 games this season. If you go back you will see that there is a suggestion every time of some psychological/factual/tradition-laden hurdle too high for Kenyon to possibly overcome. In this case, he's underscoring the odds of overcoming 37 years of history. That's just one little angle on the current picture, and for me it was presented as THE angle. And so I think asking how he thinks that fact came to be, and what possible relevance it has right now, and whether it's a suggestion of some predestined foreshadowing narrative, is fair.
Just one thing on broad historical facts being free from bias. I don't think that's always true because choice goes into what facts are chosen and underscored as most significant while other facts may be minimized or omitted entirely. For example, what team has given OWU the most blemishes on its record over the past 2-3 years? The answer begins to shift the perception a little bit from the 7 years in a row, never beaten, etc narrative. And on all the college websites, "facts" are usually laid out in a way that puts that school in its most positive light.
How about this prediction: The team that plays the best is likely to win . . .
Oh I totally understand where you're coming from here. He posted that fact here on this message board as a standalone thing. Of course in this environment, that is something that is more open to debate and is presented from his biased position as an OWU alum. After all, he didn't post his reasoning on why Kenyon will win here, just the fact that was pro-OWU. I think the whole debate simply arose from the fact that he had already basically written this preview and knew in his mind that the factoid was originating from that piece, which you'd have to agree was pretty unbiased on the whole. All you got was one soundbyte from that, before you got to see the entire piece, and that fact alone could definitely be used to sway peoples' opinion towards an OWU win, so that's what it sounded like he was doing. You wanted to debate that one point, and perhaps he took it as an attack on the fact that he was even considering using it in his preview, when really he knew it was just a small part of it that he thought was relevant to the debate on the board at that point in time.
At least, that's my take on this historic NCAC v. Harmanis battle that will forever go down in d3soccer lore. Now, back to you in the studio!
OK, now where are those Messiah announcers??? Let's get them chiming in.
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 20, 2014, 05:23:37 PM
How about this prediction: The team that plays the best is likely to win . . .
Those of us who have been around the game for a while know that this prediction is wrong about 50% of the time. It's a cruel stat, but the "lesser" team often wins in futbol.
Sherlock hit the nail on the head. My issue was with the accuracy of the fact, but we've pretty much put it to bed and had some good discussion about both teams and some of the relevant considerations, statistical and otherwise, for that game.
Speaking of which, I'll be in Gambier at the game if anyone else is around.
Here's something I've been thinking about. If anyone has read Christian's Sweet 16 article, it's pretty much favorites and ranked teams despite all of the overtimes and penalties in the opening weekend. I've thought for much of the year there has been more parity than normal, but we still somehow ended up with the usual suspects. Anybody think that's going to change this weekend, with more upsets?
See ya there buddy, but probably after the game is best, either way it turns out. We can break down the CNU-Whitworth affair and send in a report.
Make sure you take a stroll down Middle Path!
And the fact that we're both gonna be in tiny Gambier kind of says it all, doesn't it?
My prediction (based simply on my opinion which is likely wrong and which many will refute I'm sure)...but non-the-less here it is...
Final 4
F&M (making a run for second year in a row - Head Coach is former Messiah player with play-off experience as player and coach)
Wheaton (very talented and playing hard and quite well for their coach's swan song)
Messiah
Kenyon (making a run for second year in a row - during last year's playoffs --beat Wheaton and came close to going up on Messiah)
Final
Wheaton - 0
Messiah - 3
While Wheaton plays very fast and almost frantic at times, I'm not sure their north/south race track style (which gives many teams fits) will be able to penetrate past the Messiah defense. Consequently Messiah possession game could produce enough chances to convert two or three goals.
Messiah
Amherst
Trinity
Whitworth
I think the East is the weakest pod. I really do not feel any of those 4 teams have the quality to win it all.
Wow. Gauntlet thrown. Should be fun to read NCACNE and Harmanis' responses to that blanket statement :o
If I had to chose a weakest pod, frankly I think it would have to be the Northeast. If I had to rank all 16 of the remaining teams' chances, beyond the obvious number one in the pod, I'd have to say each of the other three may not even be in the top half of that 16, and I'll try and explain why so I can't be accused of making a similar "blanket statement". I think I read in Christian's look at the sweet 16 that this is as far as Tufts, Cortland and Muhlenberg have all been in their current players' careers. My personal opinion is that Tufts and Cortland have been streaky in the latter part of the season, and Muhlenberg simply doesn't have the offense to win the whole thing. For me, that lack of experience and the other factors make me think if Messiah doesn't make it out of that group, I wouldn't put my money on any of the other three teams coming out of it.
Haha for that pod it depends on how you feel about Kenyon, to be honest. Nobody seems to know much about Whitworth. Christopher Newport is talented enough to beat anyone but they also have a lot more blemishes than your typical title team. And NCAC was right, this OWU is closer to the 2012 edition than the 2009-11 or 2013 teams. The question with Kenyon, in terms of a national championship, is whether they can score enough to beat a team like Messiah. That defense (when healthy) is going to keep them in a game with anyone.
Sherlock, all of these jabs from our friend Mr.Right stem from a single comment about 10 weeks ago made by I think Corazon, and now, somehow, despite me defending his view, I'm now paying for it and it is anti-Kenyon to the death. I guess the take home message is "Don't mess with Williams." Meanwhile, he has to wait a few hours before giving me a karma point. And all this after I pumped him up and facilitated his brief resurrection to relevance. Too bad. He does know a lot about D3 soccer.
As for the pod, I would give all 4 teams at a minimum a 40/60 chance against any of the other remaining teams in the field except for the Falcons, and in almost instances 50/50 or 60/40. In other words, take Messiah out of the picture and the tournament is completely wide open. Of course, the problem is that Messiah IS very much in the picture and determined to make sure everyone else gets cropped out.
Meanwhile, there is a NCAA tournament beginning in a few hours...
I keep thinking of all the overwhelming reasons to pick Wheaton, but I like Wartburg in this one. I've been struck by comments about the frenetic pace that Wheaton plays at, and while that could generate a blowout, when was the last time Wartburg got blown out in a big spot? The longer the game goes on and Wartburg is still in it I could see the pressure start to mount on the Thunder. A little bit like Amherst, and despite having probably one of the top 2-3 fan bases/crowds in the nation, I wonder if Wheaton would be better off away from home. 3-2 OT1 Wartburg.
I find coming to an opinion on the nightcap almost impossible. These Iowa teams are so tough (main reason I'm picking Wartburg), but Loras seems slightly down and has fought like crazy to have a very similar season to the past couple of years. Seems like it is Trinity's turn, and they probably have the slightly better team this year, but their recent results have been less than spectacular against less than spectacular competition. Loras 1-1 2OT 4-3 PKs
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 21, 2014, 01:17:22 PM
Meanwhile, there is a NCAA tournament beginning in a few hours...
I keep thinking of all the overwhelming reasons to pick Wheaton, but I like Wartburg in this one. I've been struck by comments about the frenetic pace that Wheaton plays at, and while that could generate a blowout, when was the last time Wartburg got blown out in a big spot? The longer the game goes on and Wartburg is still in it I could see the pressure start to mount on the Thunder. A little bit like Amherst, and despite having probably one of the top 2-3 fan bases/crowds in the nation, I wonder if Wheaton would be better off away from home. 3-2 OT1 Wartburg.
Wartburg's biggest advantage over many teams is their speed, these guys are flat out burners! I have watched tons of schools play this year and haven't seen a team that can match Wartburg's speed front to back. I know every team has a "fast guy", but Wartburg is a "fast team".
My posts have nothing to do with Williams or Kenyon or whatever. I could care less about karma and all that. I gave Ryan a + for his argument with NCAC. First of all, Ryan does a lot for this site and his previews I enjoy immensely. He is a young guy and probably has a lot of other commitments to attend to but he gives his time to this site. I appreciate that more than anything. After reading his preview I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was presented. If anyone is more aware of the potential to be biased it would be Ryan or anyone for that matter writing about their school. I thought NCAC flew off the handle for no reason at all so I gave him a - karma. That is it I usually do not even mess with the karma unless someone makes a stupid post.
Honestly, the East is the weakest pod because CNU is a good team but to inconsistent. OWU I have seen on video 5 times this year and they are DOWN this year. Kenyon in my mind has been overrated all year. Their LOSS to Messiah last year makes everyone believe they are a stellar team. I do not think they can score goals. Whitworth is solid but not going to content for the 2014 title.
enjoy the games tonight because that will be the best video quality of the 4.
KICKIN, and that goes from the starting 10 field players to guys 1 to 8 or 9 off the bench.
Fast and deep. As said in previous posts, it will depend on which Wartburg shows up. They did look against U of Chicago who plays more possessnion type game similar to Wheaton.
Looking at Kenyon's schedule this year it looks average at best. I would say the NCAC has 3 good teams including Kenyon and 2 or 3 avergae teams and the rest are soft. I think the league is top heavy and maybe the 7th best conference in the country. Kenyon played CMU which looks to be their best non league game and they were average at best. Their 2 NCAA games have not been great quality so this team has not played a VERY good team this year besides a "down" OWU. Plenty of question marks here
Oh, Mr.Right, how I long for the days just a couple of short weeks ago when we were thick as thieves.
Mr. Right's D3 Conference Rankings
1. Nescac
2. UAA
3. NJAC
4. Centennial
5. IIAC
6. Liberty League
7. MIAC
8. NCAC
9. Capital
10. Sunyac
11.MIAA
12.Newmac
So Mr.Right, you've picked Amherst AND Brandeis to win their game. Have you decided who you really think is going to win? And why?
I never picked both teams. I said the winner of that game will win that pod. I am rooting for Brandeis and their style. Amherst like OWU is in the midst of their worst season since 2008 and ironically have their best chance of getting to the Final 4. Brandeis needs to limit fouls. Amherst is missing Bubba Van Wie and that will hurt them because he has the massive long throw. Bull has not been himself all year and besides Wirz their D was much better last year with Norton and Caslin sitting in front of the back 4. Saying all that I really think Amherst high pressure is going to bother Brandeis and the grass will neutralize Brandeis speed. Toss-up
Ryan what is the scoop on Jay Martin? Any idea or rumor on how much longer he is going to go? If he wins it all this year do you think he hangs em up?
You did explicitly pick Amherst and within an hour had changed your mind to Brandeis. You even commented to the effect of "I know I just picked Amherst, but..."
You also picked Husson to beat Brandeis and insisted Brandeis wouldn't get out of the first weekend.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
Mr. Right's D3 Conference Rankings
1. Nescac
2. UAA
3. NJAC
4. Centennial
5. IIAC
6. Liberty League
7. MIAC
8. NCAC
9. Capital
10. Sunyac
11.MIAA
12.Newmac
Pretty close...pretty close.....
Like I have said before with the parity in D3 this year it is very hard to pick winners consistently. Which team is going to show up? which is team is going to lose concentration on set pieces or which player is going to be caught ball watching. These teams are so closely bunched that it comes down to simple mistakes sometimes. I picked Brandeis to not get out of the 1st and 2nd round because they were not playing their best before the tournament when I watched them. The Husson pick was basically a joke. I really did think Bowdoin or Brockport could beat them. Brandeis proved ON THEIR CARPET they are extremely tough to beat. Bowdoin had some chances and had they not given up that soft goal it was headed to PK's and I would have given Bowdoin the edge in PK's. So it was closer than most thought.
You predict Amherst v Brandeis will be an instant classic. Any game involving Amherst might have some drama and some chippiness but the word "classic" to me means you could watch the game 10 times over. Amherst mucks up the game to much for me to watch them again in a game I have already seen. SLU v Brandeis might have been a classic.
I used instant classic as a little hyperbole to pump up anticipation of the game and while perhaps not pretty what I meant is that I think both teams will compete in a manner worthy of the moment and reflective of how much each team wants this.
Mr R what is your assessment of F&M?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
Mr. Right's D3 Conference Rankings
1. Nescac
2. UAA
3. NJAC
4. Centennial
5. IIAC
6. Liberty League
7. MIAC
8. NCAC
9. Capital
10. Sunyac
11.MIAA
12.Newmac
The Centennial was 5-2 vs NJAC this year. That's the only qualm I have with this list.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 04:48:53 PM
You predict Amherst v Brandeis will be an instant classic. Any game involving Amherst might have some drama and some chippiness but the word "classic" to me means you could watch the game 10 times over. Amherst mucks up the game to much for me to watch them again in a game I have already seen. SLU v Brandeis might have been a classic.
Well said.
F&M I have only seen twice. Solid and athletic in the back. undersized and skilled in midfield and strikers will have a hard time scoring against top 10 teams. They are fun to watch on turf but so are a lot of teams. They will not be in attendance in Kansas City.
I favor the NJAC because top to bottom it is a bit tougher than Centennial. I believe the top 4 conferences are very close but the NJAC style of play has been causing problems for other regions for decades.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 05:15:13 PM
I favor the NJAC because top to bottom it is a bit tougher than Centennial. I believe the top 4 conferences are very close but the NJAC style of play has been causing problems for other regions for decades.
I'd have to respectfully disagree. This year the top of the Centennial was stronger, and If you look at the bottom of each conference against each other, the Centennial performed better. Swarthmore, the sixth place team in the Cent beat Stockton and Rowan (at Stockton and at Rowan), fifth and seventh in the NJAC respectively. They lost to third place RUC (in Camden) late in the season during RUC's 9-2 run. This year, the Centennial was the third strongest conference.
Ok you sold me. They were always very close I guess maybe historically the NJAC has been closer to UAA and Nescac and used to cause Nescac in particular Williams tons of problems in the NCAA's. My fault for allowing historical results to factor in this years rankings.
Mr. Right's D3 Conference Rankings
1. Nescac
2. UAA
3. Centennial
4. NJAC
5. IIAC
6. Liberty League
7. MIAC
8. NCAC
9. Capital
10. Sunyac
11.MIAA
12.Newmac
With the sweet 16 soon to get underway could someone provide the weather forecast for each of the 4 sites. If I cannot get injuries for some of these teams that I do not know as well as others I would at least like to get weather conditions for the pod hosts
Mr. Right,
How does the MIAC work it's way into that ranking?
Any weather reports for the 4 sites?
MIAC is underrated IMO like the Capital league.
Wheaton has come out gangbusters. They WERE READY TO PLAY
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 06:01:16 PM
Any weather reports for the 4 sites?
There should be no issues with the games at Muhlenberg.
Saturday 11:00 am: Mostly sunny, 37 degrees, winds 5 mph, precipitation: 4%
Saturday 1:30 pm: Clouds and sun, 40 degrees, winds 8 mph, precipitation: 4%
Sunday 1:00 pm: Milder with variable clouds, 50 degrees, winds 5 mph, precipitation: 8%
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
With the sweet 16 soon to get underway could someone provide the weather forecast for each of the 4 sites. If I cannot get injuries for some of these teams that I do not know as well as others I would at least like to get weather conditions for the pod hosts
20s clear and minimal breeze here in Wheaton ... And oh by the way wheaton just went up 2-0 and only 15 minutes in
How do you figure the MIAC is underrated?
Thanks guys for the weather reports....YES Wheaton firing on all cylinders. Wartburg looks seriously over matched
Wartburg is playing way to wide eyed, alnodt scared. They need to get their D in order. Wheaton is walking all over them. I like that the ref is letting them play but not allowing too much.
The MIAC has two top dogs who are very underrated on the national scene. The next 4 teams are very equal and capable of knocking off any team on any night. The bottom 3 or 4 is like other top conferences in that they are weaker teams but capable of getting a result. They are on equal terms with NCAC and SUNYAC.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 06:20:46 PM
Thanks guys for the weather reports....YES Wheaton firing on all cylinders. Wartburg looks seriously over matched
True - not sure how much you can see on the video but wartburg is backing off and much more passive than they started which is creating more space for wheaton to possess
3-0 Wheaton....Wartburg getting blown off the field. They look to be severely over matched.
I agree Knight Falcon as I can see that on video. They do not have the talent to keep up but shame on the coaching staff for not getting this team fired up and pressing high from the get go
This is not the same Wartburg team that shows up for conference games. No confidence and no swagger, that's their MO and they seem to have left it on the bus.
This is not the same Wartburg team that shows up for conference games. No confidence and no swagger, that's their MO and they seem to have left it on the bus.
This was what I was talking about earlier. Who knows what team is showing up and when they will show up. If a Sweet 16 cannot get you pumped to play I do not know what can. Honestly, I think they are just over matched and look nothing like the team that beat Loras in PK's in their conference tournament. Maybe that says something about Loras as well but I doubt it
Big advantage for Wheaton to give their big guns a long rest. Loras and Trinity wull no doubt be a closer match, the cold will not be Trinity's friend.
Can't really take away the Loras v Wartburg rivalry abd those results from this performance. Totally different situations.
Trinity can deal with cold better than most fans think. They did win the 2003 National Championship in below freezing temps at Drew Univ in 2003. I predict a close game like you say but I believe Trinity will be able to withstand Loras 2-1.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 21, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
Big advantage for Wheaton to give their big guns a long rest. Loras and Trinity wull no doubt be a closer match, the cold will not be Trinity's friend.
In any two game weekend like this, it is huge to be able to win the first one comfortably. And Wheaton just scored their 5th while I was typing. I think this qualifies as a blowout now...
Holy crap is this an absolute embarrassing showing for Wartburg
Unreal score line in this wheaton v Wartburg match. Did not see the warts coming out so flat. Wheaton firing on all cylinders. Last time their coach- Joe Bean- was in his final season the thunder advanced to the final. Wheaton looks poised to do the same again.
Again I think the center official has done a great job keeping this one under control. Best compliment you csn give him is that you didn't even notice he was there.
Did Wartburg play that poorly, or did Wheaton just play that well? If Wartburg is really a true sweet 16 team, Wheaton looks like they will match right to the national final.
Playing against Wheaton last weekend as my last collegiate game, I can honestly say that this Wheaton is the best team I've played against. They beat us 3-0, and they missed a bunch of sitters. Granted we had a couple opportunities that could of changed the game, but they are truly that great. They are a scary team with so many studs that play beautiful soccer.
i suspect a little of both.
Why is the Wheaton coach in his final season?
His wife took a job in Atlanta. He will be coaching for a high school down there.
Ok thanks..who are the candidates that they are looking at? Is there an assistant on the bench in waiting?
He should volunteer for Emory might help their anemic offense :)
Not sure about a replacement. Not close enough to the program for that type of G2. I'd imagine it will be a large nation search.
The Calvin coach, a Wheaton alum, has got to be on the short list if he has any intererst.
There are a few former Wheaton players coaching elsewhere that I suspect will be at the top of the list - Jake Declute, Ryan Souders and Phil Wolf are 3 that come to mind
I am really getting tired of narrow fields. Wheaton's field looks like a great soccer facility with a nice surface but very narrow
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 21, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
Did Wartburg play that poorly, or did Wheaton just play that well? If Wartburg is really a true sweet 16 team, Wheaton looks like they will match right to the national final.
Wheaton was on fire from the beginning - they had a big crowd there too that helped. They never let Wartburg get settled and went up 2-0 in the first 15 minutes. Wartburg is going to be in trouble anytime the other team is more aggressive than they are and that happened right from the start.
And Loras strikes first. Am I the only one that finds it really hard to watch a stream with no audio?
Uggh I hate when I get up and miss goals...Could one of you describe the goal and the goings on before the goal...I do not mind no audio I just put music on or the TV on
Beautiful goal after slicing right through the Trinity D! They aren't using the same camera either. Crappy quality
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 09:07:48 PM
Uggh I hate when I get up and miss goals...Could one of you describe the goal and the goings on before the goal...I do not mind no audio I just put music on or the TV on
Dribbled past 3 defenders on the left side of the field and bends in in the right upper 90 from 18 out. Actually out in the upoer ring, isn't that worth 2?
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 21, 2014, 09:08:49 PM
Beautiful goal after slicing right through the Trinity D! They aren't using the same camera either. Crappy quality
Yeah, the production quality is not near as good. I had glanced away and looked back just in time to see the goal struck. Looked like a beauty of a strike.
Trinity's having a very hard time with the Duhawks pressure
1-0 Loras at half. Could easily be 3-0, keeper saves a sitter from 6 and missed a 1 v 1 wide and high.
damn...just got back to sit down to start the half and missed Trinity's goal....any description? I thought Loras could of had a few in the 1st half
Didn't catch Trinity's goal but they have been the better side in the second half.
yea I was going to say they have Loras on their heels but they cannot make that final pass
That was a beauty....
and while I was typing I just missed Trinity's 2nd goal....I have missed all the goals. Any description for both Trinity 2nd half goals
Wow, I missed the first two goals, but just saw Trinity's second. Nice shot to the upper right corner. Trinity certainly seems to have the upper hand since halftime . . . at least whenever I'm able to pay attention.
Quote from: dontshootthegoose on November 21, 2014, 10:03:02 PM
That was a beauty....
Agreed! I missed Trinity's first, but the second was as great strike.
Yes - Trinity looks like a different team. First time I am seeing them play this year and now I can see why they rated so high.
First goal was a cross from the end line across the mouth of the goal and someone got a foot on it and into the goal
Loras seems to have fallen asleep 2nd half and lets in 2 in the first 15.
I thought Trinity was starting to settle in for the last 10-15 minutes of the first half, and they carried that into the second half.
WOW 3 minutes left and Loras had a chance after Trinity's GK came off his line in a bad decision but the kid hit it over the bar. Trinity's GK night be their downfall, we will see tomorrow
Another good chance for Loras under 2 minutes and this time Trinity's GK makes a nice diving save to pounce on the ball
4 chances inside the 6 and nothing to show fir loras
Loras 3rd and final chance was a clean header but the striker headed it right at the goalie. That was the best chance out of the 3
After seeing Loras coaches and players the past few years in San Antonio after losses its a real good bet they are all going to be off their rocker crazy drunk in a matter of hours. Coaches included. Hey they know how to live it up in Iowa. Congrats on a great season to Loras as I know they had some injuries this year
That header was their 5th chance inside the 6 in the 2nd half. 2 were inside 3yds. Trinity definitely better side the first 30 of the 2nd half. Why loras player didn't go down after beating his guy in the box and getting tripped is a mystery. Very entertaining game, so many missed opps. Good luck to the remaining teams.
Loras was still working their ass off. That is one video where I feel like I did not get the full feel of being at the game as you could tell the players were much faster and working harder in live action. That stream felt a little like slow motion.
Trinity looked exhausted after the game. Wheaton rested their starters in the second half, plus they have a a few more hours recovery time and they get to sleep in their own beds tonight. I think that is a slight advantage going into the game tomorrow for Wheaton.
Trinity adjusted well and played off targets and off the ball movement. Loras just couldn't find their rythym.
I was with the coaches in San Antonio last two seasons and I don't recall any of them off their rocker drunk.
Really....maybe not 2013 as much but 2012 Loras coaches and players were bombed...No big deal it is totally justified
Sometimes it can do a team some harm winning an easy game like that in the 1st game. The first 15 minutes of tomorrow's game should be a good indicator of that
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 10:51:41 PM
Really....maybe not 2013 as much but 2012 Loras coaches and players were bombed...No big deal it is totally justified
Maybe because I don't remember much from 2012 either ;)
Quote from: Sirius90 on November 21, 2014, 05:07:40 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 21, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
Mr. Right's D3 Conference Rankings
1. Nescac
2. UAA
3. NJAC
4. Centennial
5. IIAC
6. Liberty League
7. MIAC
8. NCAC
9. Capital
10. Sunyac
11.MIAA
12.Newmac
The Centennial was 5-2 vs NJAC this year. That's the only qualm I have with this list.
I'd still go:
1. NESCAC
2. UAA
3. NJAC
4. Centennial (Haverford was 3-2 vs NJAC teams seeded 2 through 6, but top to bottom NJAC still wins).
5. Liberty
6. IIAC/NCAC/CAC
9. MIAC/CCIW
Centennial getting 3 teams in and most likely what should have been 4 isn't really an indicator of this because the South Atlantic region is much stronger....
My regional tiers would be:
New England, South Atlantic, Great Lakes
Mid-Atlantic, North, East
Central, West
Bennett says:
1 NESCAC
2 UAA
3 New Jersey
4 Centennial
5 Liberty League
6 Iowa
7 Minnesota
8 Wisconsin
9 CCIW
After watching both games tonight, I really don't have much to add from what I said last week. Wheaton (IL) is a fantastic team, and if they keep up how they've been playing it's going to take a Messiah-like performance to stop their run. Both of their games have looked like pretty routine wins when in reality they were playing quality opponents. It'll be interesting to see how Trinity starts out the game tomorrow, but I see Wheaton coming out and getting another solid win. I'm thinking a 3-1 scoreline, Wheaton going up 2-0, Trinity getting one back, and then Wheaton getting a late 3rd goal with Trinity pushed up.
Be careful heading out to Kenyon today, NCAC. Maybe you're already there - I'm going to wait and see if it warms up to melt the ice on the roadways.
May be a delay.
The Kenyon sectional has been delayed and may have a change of venue. All of the freeways north of Columbus are shut down due to ice and tons of accidents. I'll post once I get an update. Bright side, we can stagger some of the games and watch more.
IMO I don't think NESCAC will have a team in the final 4.
What kind of storm was it?
GOT IT ......
The tournament committee is currently exploring new options for today's NCAA Division III men's soccer games. Kenyon was originally supposed to host Ohio Wesleyan University at 11 a.m., but Mavec Field was covered with an icy layer this morning. Whitworth University and Christopher Newport University were scheduled to play at 1:30 p.m. The icy conditions are prominent throughout the area and have made travel extremely difficult. Check back for updates as they become available. Updates will also be sent through Twitter (@KenyonSports) and Facebook (Kenyon College Athletics).
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
Welcome to Messiah v Cortland at Muhlenberg on a 2004 video stream. This is an embarrassment
Wow Oneonta stream just as bad...We knew this would happen but I am really disappointed
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
What kind of storm was it?
it started raining 5:30 and the rain froze upon hitting the ground. Lots of wrecks around Columbus - no chance the country roads to Gambier are going to get salted.
Canceled till Sunday - noon and 2:30 start times - at Kenyon
Messiah up 1-0 as Cortland cannot get out of their half....
Oneonta and F&M 0-0 but Oneonta all over them
Well, Cortland State just put themselves in a huge hole.This game looks like it could get out of hand very quickly. Field doesn't look like its playing well as expected, lots of slipping and very bouncy.
Falcons had another great chance when Thompson (I think--no audio and the video is almost worthless) beat his man to the baseline and made a nice cross for a shot close in that missed wide left.
I am going to blast Oneonta and Muhlenberg in a letter to their AD and SID. I know it will not do anything but they should realize this product is an embarrassment
YC on Cordtland, can't read the number. Trying to guard Payne too closely in Messiah's own half.
Falcons score again on header from left side--can't see who.
Apparently Payne (again), on a nice feed into the box from Benji Kennel. Payne is the real deal at striker.
Falcons get third goal on (I think) their fourth shot today--looked like Payne crossed to Thompson or Kennel. Can't tell. As bad a video feed as there is. No excuse for this.
Cortland and F&M look over matched. Oneonta just cannot finish.
This reminds me of the 2004 final against UC-Santa Cruz (a great defensive team that year, despite what I'm about to say), in which the Falcons scored on all of their first 3 shots--and all 3 goals were by freshmen. http://www.messiah.edu/gomessiah/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2004/TEAMSTAT.HTM
Seniors scoring this time, however.
UCSC 2004 ended my college career in the elite 8 on an OG :(
Cortland is not good plain and simple. They are just big, rough, and overall dirty players with no soccer skill. 4 cards in the first 20 minutes I believe. This looks more like a Div. 2 PSAC school than anything else. No match at all for Messiah. No defensive structure by Cortland. It's hard to watch. Messiah could end up with 6 on the board by the end of this.
Cortland should be athletic enough to hang around more than they are doing. I agree about organization as the coaches should take fault for not coming up with a sound defensive game plan. To me F&M does not look a sweet 16 team either so far.
Payne got on outside shoulder and slotted it far post. Nice finish. Kennel with a header over the goalie off the post and in. Nice set up for that one. Thompson's was a clean up goal from a Payne cross that keeper muffed. 3-0 with 10 to play in the first half. Messiah dominating. ANy word on the F&M game?
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 11:40:35 AM
Cortland should be athletic enough to hang around more than they are doing. I agree about organization as the coaches should take fault for not coming up with a sound defensive game plan. To me F&M does not look a sweet 16 team either so far.
Yes heard there is snow on the ground for that game. Do you know where it is being played at? And Oneonta that good or F&M just flustered?
0-0 and F&M is starting to wake up and getting a couple chances of their own. Oneonta was all over them in the first 20 minutes. This game should come down to the wire. I will say if F&M somehow prevails they will not get by Amherst or Brandeis. This is not a Final 4 team let alone Sweet 16
A very tiny bit of snow / frost but it is being played at Oneonta's grass field
Got ya thanks for the updates! Should be a good day of soccer!
Brandeis is going to struggle with Amherst on Oneonta's field. They are not going to be able to knock the ball around on that slick surface. They might need to change their game plan and have their defenders whack the ball out. Amherst will be kicking and running and this should fit right into their game plan
Sequence that sums up the game of soccer. Oneonta misses a 2-on-0 breakaway, F&M comes back and scores 60 seconds later. 1-0 Diplomats.
F&M scores against the run of play on a nice counter. Let's see if they bunker in. Oneonta must step it up even more now. They missed the 2 on 0 but I think it was offside but could not quite tell.
Gotcha, thought it might have been but considering we can barely see the ball the far side linesman is out of the question.
Game pickin up steam..Oneonta player had a nice chance had he hit it with his left. He goes across his body and shoots with his right. A dribbler out of bounds. Please Please trust your weak foot and use it
I think Falcons just got a 5th, on a quick restart when the defense wasn't expecting it. Hard to see and all sound is gone so I can't really tell. The boys were acting like it was a goal...
Yes--it was Jack Thompson off a quick touch from Ramirez
Sounds like Christopher Newport will play Whitworth at noon tomorrow, with Kenyon-OWU to follow at 2:30. Field is likely to be in rough shape following the snow/rain/ice today and projected rain for tomorrow, but we'll see.
Sixth Falcon goal, I think Payne again from Thompson.
This is a rout. Cortland doesn't look good at all--no idea what they are doing on either end. It's either the case that the Falcons are just so good right now that almost any opponent is going to look bad, or else Cortland isn't nearly as good as their record. I honestly don't know which one it is, since the video is so poor and I haven't seen Cortland play anyone else this year.
Last week the Falcons played well, but not nearly this well. It's hard for me to think that all of the difference is just the opponent, but perhaps Morrisville really is better than Cortland. They didn't play head to head this year, so we can't look at that. Certainly Morrisville looked a lot better last week than Cortland looks today...
Oneonta starting to feast on F&M as they go up 2-1.
Why WHy WHY would Oneonta sub with 27 seconds left and stop the clock..I do not get when coaches do this under 5 minutes
Messiah routs Cortland. No shock their. Excited for Tufts at Muhlenberg and Amherst vs Brandeis. F&M has been overrated in my opinion all year. Tough matchup for them though. But there was never going to be a F&M vs Messiah final.
Messiah and Wheaton in the championship would be perfect
F&m the "better" team but lost. Not unusual. their #9 was impressive.
Well the Oneonta game camera is right behind the benches. Looks like I'll have to watch the Brandeis-Amherst game on mute.
Messiah sending a message...to Tufts/Muhlenberg? To Wheaton?
Weather now is perfect in Gambier. Too bad. And RH is right. A real question about how field will hold up. Rain may hold off until most of both games complete tomorrow but last I looked a good 1/2 inch or more of rain tomorrow night, so the teams that advance could have even tougher conditions next day. Should have gone to Newport.
Times for tomorrow in Gambier moved up to 11:00 and 1:30. CNU and Whitworth playing first, I assume so loser can get the heck out of here on a flight.
Tufts up 1-0 on a header off a set piece. They seem to be controlling play on Muhlenberg's field. The Centennial's top teams could not keep up with other leagues top teams today
Tufts just the better team. Muhlenberg once again not too dangerous offensively with their chances coming off long throws and set pieces. It's good to see the deserving team win.
Amherst goes down in PKs! So sad to see them go...said no one ever.
Maybe not a beautiful game...but a great college soccer game...two teams going to their limit...IMHO Brandeis very deserving to move on.
My feed went in and out..I thought Amherst was ahead then someone missed and then someone missed the last kick? Anyway congrats to Brandeis. Amherst and Serpone lose for the 5th straight year in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8...Hopefully they change their style and make it more attractive to watch
Now for a really great game and live feed on to Trinity and Wheaton
Yeah the feed kept crapping out. Brandeis missed the first PK, and then Amherst missed the 3rd kick I believe. Was tied at 5, Brandeis made their 6th and then Amherst missed.
Nothing like the feed going in and out in middle of PKs. Over 1300+ watching at that point.
thought amherst was the better team in the first half then brandeis in the second. assuming a wind or something at oneonta then. lapaz that happened to everyone on pks i think. feed was terrible the entire game unfortunate to say the least. anyone live have an idea who missed on amherst? congrats to brandeis
I gave up on the feed and just went to the live stats. Talk about suspense. Happy for the Judges but the Jeffs had their chances. Great game. I still think Oneonta will advance to the Final Four. Then again, I thought Amherst would beat Brandeis; that's why they play the games.
Quote from: ihidebehindtheinternet on November 22, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
thought amherst was the better team in the first half then brandeis in the second. assuming a wind or something at oneonta then. lapaz that happened to everyone on pks i think. feed was terrible the entire game unfortunate to say the least. anyone live have an idea who missed on amherst? congrats to brandeis
Bellew the freshman missed the fourth and Martin missed the seventh.
Why in the world wasn't Bull in the net?
wasnt in against st lawrence. assuming lee owen is much better at pks according to the coaching staff
Wow! Yet another Top Five team falls in the tournament. Trinity goes down with a little more than 2 minutes remaining in the 2nd OT.
. . . Oh wait . . . am I logged into the men's soccer discussion or the women's?
Oops . . . my bad.
Freshman taking PK's can be a lot of pressure. I thought Owen did well up at SLU but I also thought he was jumping off his line early. Got to love Soboff #10 of Brandeis his uniform was muddy in every place. he worked his ass off today.
I was the first person to say that Amherst deserved the win u at SLU even though I bleed RED.
SLU are a possession team and had a 1 man advantage for 15 minutes on home turf and did not capitalize.
I do have to say though, the Lord Jeffs will never win a National Championship without changing their style of play.
Only good soccer playing teams make it to the final 4 with a chance to win it all...
At this stage a team must be stringing passes together as well as having that extra something.
That extra something for Amherst is Defense.
They play amazing defense.
These boys just shut out a sick Brandies team and almost shut out SLU.
They must add variety flair and passing to the attack in order to win a championship.
Also:
I have only seen Kenyon play 25 minutes this year, but wow, they are good.
Wheaton is strong, and they are champions (85, 97) they will be a very tough out. Play beautiful soccer.
Oneonta is still undefeated.
The class of the NESCAC can bring pride to the conference still.
Prediction:
A former champion will win it all or it will be Kenyon.
No video for Trinity-Wheaton? Sratch that. Just after I hit "post" the video came up.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 22, 2014, 06:02:36 PM
No video for Trinity-Wheaton?
I had audio, and now I just lost that :-( Was really looking forward to this match.
Wow! Trinity goes up 1-0 two or so minutes in.
Now I have a video feed, and I missed a Trinity goal...
Absolute rocket from the top of the box
These two teams are really talented/skilled. Trinity off to the important strong start. Sometimes I think Wheaton plays too fast and too open for their own good. They overwhelmed and buried Wartburg with that style but will it work tonight?
This makes me think Colorado College is pretty good.
Left back for Wheaton, Anthony (transfer from Ohio State). is a like a man playing with boys.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 22, 2014, 05:31:47 PM
Prediction:
A former champion will win it all or it will be Kenyon.
So your picking some team other than Oneonta, Tufts, Whitworth or CNU. Fair enough.
Wheaton not looking like the team that ended Whitewater and Wartburg's seasons. Look like they are a little off tonight, maybe Trinity is just that talented.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 22, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Left back for Wheaton, Anthony (transfer from Ohio State). is a like a man playing with boys.
One of Trinity's "boys" is having a field day with Anthony.
You must have a different feed than I do ;)
Actually, I wish I had a different feed. My feed locked up once Wheaton scored. Can some of you please log off so I can watch the 2nd half.
Trinity needs a goal. Wheaton all over them. Thunder so similar to Messiah and OWU with all the clever set plays with 3 or 4 passes and almost score every time. And they look as fast as Messiah but even bigger.
GOAL Wheaton, that had the feeling that it was just a matter of time.
And the one touch cross in from Anthony. Just so efficient and decisive and fluid in his decisions.
Where is Thunder announcing crew? Used to have 2-3 guys like Messiah and after the game coach interview and whole 9 yards.
Wheaton may go up 3-1 but they're also giving Trinity a chance to tie it up because don't know how to slow things down. That's why I don't think they can beat Messiah.
Yeah, Trinity is still dangerous and they are starting to play with urgency.
The speed with which Wheaton transitions into attack after winning the ball is really entertaining to watch.
Wow. Game made me dizzy. Congrats to Wheaton. Valiant effort by Trinity.
A worthy clash of Champions.
We might have just seen the 2014 Kings.
Wheaton is a very deserving Final Four team. But their last five tournament games have all been at home. They now need to show us they can win on the road. Oddly enough, they are closer to Kansas City than any of the other three Final Four teams.
Goodbye Amherst. I hope that your collective antics are not the subject of conversation next year.
Watched today. Saw a team giving it their all, supported by an enthusiastic bench. In fact, Amherst probably surprised some folks today in their ability to play the underdog without looking like one. Sometimes it seems folks are jumping willy-nilly on an anti-Jeffs bandwagon?
On another note, why am I earning negative karma points? How have I offended thee? (Other than by supporting Amherst...)
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 22, 2014, 10:02:27 PM
Watched today. Saw a team giving it their all, supported by an enthusiastic bench. In fact, Amherst probably surprised some folks today in their ability to play the underdog without looking like one. Sometimes it seems folks are jumping willy-nilly on an anti-Jeffs bandwagon?
On another note, why am I earning negative karma points? How have I offended thee? (Other than by supporting Amherst...)
"Enthusiastic bench" Come on. We all know they cross the line between being "enthusiastic" and being completely obnoxious and classless. They could and should receive yellow cards every single game. Literally every call that goes against them they go ballistic and act like they never do anything wrong. They've earned their reputation for a reason. Most of us aren't sad to see them go.
Quote from: stlawus on November 22, 2014, 10:58:50 PM
They've earned their reputation for a reason.
Exactly. It's one thing if one or two people think something. But when many folks from different angles share a similar collective view, there is usually some truth behind the viewpoint.
OK. I agree the coach behaves that way. It's obvious. But I'm still not convinced the boys deserve the animosity here. Go ahead and give me a thousand negative karma points, but I just don't see/hear it the way you do, StLawUs. Hopefully, you're not that guy (father?/alum?) who felt it necessary to yell derogatory remarks at the Jeffs players as they jogged across the pitch in a cool-down last Sunday. That guy was classless and did not represent SLU well at all.
Conditions appear to be much better in Gambier, much warmer although they could see some rain; especially during the 2nd game (Kenyon / OWU). Heading out to Allentown; hoping the field is in better conditions. Doesn't appear field conditions improved much for yesterday's 2nd game given he following comments from Tuft's web site:
Field conditions at Muhlenberg were a factor after the pitch froze overnight and had only slightly melted before play started today.
http://www.gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/20141122gjae9v
I don't think we will see many goals today. A very small field with two of the better defensive teams in the country. 1-0?
I'm sure the field will be as bad today as well. I'm sure we'll see lots of slipping and sliding. After watching both games live yesterday, I don't see Tufts hanging with Messiah the entire game. I think their defender #25 is dangerous on any free kicks or corner kicks, and that's their best shot. #12 was the most dangerous offensive player, but he didn't seem well supported by the rest of the team for much of the game. I'm leaning more towards 3-0 or 3-1. Something like that.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 23, 2014, 06:00:26 AM
OK. I agree the coach behaves that way. It's obvious. But I'm still not convinced the boys deserve the animosity here. Go ahead and give me a thousand negative karma points, but I just don't see/hear it the way you do, StLawUs. Hopefully, you're not that guy (father?/alum?) who felt it necessary to yell derogatory remarks at the Jeffs players as they jogged across the pitch in a cool-down last Sunday. That guy was classless and did not represent SLU well at all.
No, it wasn't me. I wasn't at the game. Sure he probably didn't represent SLU well, but everyone will forget about and still remember Amherst's antics. Even from a neutral standpoint, animosity is completely warranted. It's ridiculous the way they conduct themselves. You may not hear it the way I do, but the rest of the NCAA sure does.
StLus, how can u hear what the players are saying from the bench? I hear lots of ohs! And heys! But I'm at the games. Is the feed so clear you can hear phrases and clauses? The one time I heard fbombs this year it was from the revered bench of a highly touted arch rival. Maybe you can PM me to give me examples so I can understand your view more clearly?
More importantly: tufts up 1-0 in first minute!?
The field here at muhlenburg is atrocious ...cow pasture is being kind
Tufts keeping 10 behind the ball at all times now ... Going to be an ugly game until messiah ties it up
Yeah the field looks nasty. Tufts doing everything a team needs to do in order to beat a Messiah team. They are well organized, physical, now after that goal confident, and most importantly they are playing without fear. Messiah is in for a dogfight the rest of the way. Should be interesting to watch.
Messiah REALLY needs to put some shots on goal
Tufts giving us Nescac fans something to cheer about so far. They will get worn down if they continue to play like this as they were chasing for 45 minutes
Yes but they look very organized and inspired ... I think adrenaline alone will carry them. Messiah needs to score in first ten minutes.
Nescac teams are usually organized...Watching the Brandeis Oneonta game and so far in 2nf half Brandeis has hit the post and is all over Oneonta. I wonder how Oneonta scored. As I type they scored again. Must be over 1500 people at this game. 2-0 Oneonta
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 23, 2014, 02:13:46 PM
I wonder how Oneonta scored. As I type they scored again.
First goal was a bad goal. Attacker came down the left and put it through the 'keeper's legs from close. Second was a wide-open feed a minute after J. Ocel hit the post. Oneonta deservedly in front.
Tufts is such an enigma. They had a few sub-par results, capped by the home loss to Conn., but are still leading Messiah. I'm no Tufts supporter but what a result this would be for them if they can hold on.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them hold on for the W. Would blow the tournament wide open.
Tufts could easily be up 3-0 right now. Counter is wide open and West has made some key saves. Messiah is getting out shot and has less set pieces. Not a winning formula. 25 to go.
Messiah just went to the extra attacker up top -12 to go
Longest 10 minutes of Tufts lives coming up
down goes Messiah
Congratulations to Tufts for a huge win.
The feed was terrible; I saw only final 15 minutes. It wouldn't load until then.
Great win for Tufts and yet another Nescac goes to a Final 4. Tufts finishes off what Williams could not which is beating Messiah. That field helped them nicely and Santos was a beast on the wing and every Tufts player worked their ass off. hats off
Tufts deserved it. Impressive performance. Great careers for the Messiah seniors though.
Well done to Tufts. They got a bit lucky with the deflection and scoring in the first minute, and certainly rode their luck at times, but every team must do that in order to beat Messiah. They defended well and worked their socks off. I've long said that objectively Tufts is the best team in the NESCAC when it is on its game, and so it proved. Congratulations Jumbos.
Also, whichever Tufts defender made that goal-line clearance in the 60th minute or so gets play of the weekend in my vote.
Gutsy win by Tufts
Feed was fine here but quality of picture wasn't great.
Was that a goalline save by a Tufts back? Did Messiah hit the crossbar and a post in the final several minutes?
Why no sound?
Good for Tufts for holding on.
Back-to-back final four appearances by NESCAC in both men's and women's brackets. People need to stop claiming that NESCAC is not one of the best conferences in D3 soccer. It. Just. Is.
So much for Kenyon..All you Kenyon lovers they are getting beat in every facet by Ohio Wesleyan. For all those that compared them to storied programs and anointing their coaches legends they have not been to a Final 4 since the legendary Jack Ketchen took some great teams in the mid 90's
Jump 4 joy it is offpitch and his "numbers" that claims that
Complete fiction. Go back and look as I repeatedly have stated that NESCAC is an elite soccer conference. You will not find a post that I have made to the contrary.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 23, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
Well done to Tufts. They got a bit lucky with the deflection and scoring in the first minute, and certainly rode their luck at times, but every team must do that in order to beat Messiah. They defended well and worked their socks off. I've long said that objectively Tufts is the best team in the NESCAC when it is on its game, and so it proved. Congratulations Jumbos.
Also, whichever Tufts defender made that goal-line clearance in the 60th minute or so gets play of the weekend in my vote.
They all played great and Kayne's blast was one of the best goals of the year..
You have said Nescac is down this year and Newmac is better all year. You are a complete joke. Stop wasting everyone's time.
I have posted twice in the last week, yet you insist on calling me out and posting lies. I did postulate that NESCAC was down this year, and you are on record agreeing.
As an old Messiah fan, I want to congratulate Tufts. They played a terrific game. They earned the win and they deserved the win.
Great run for the Messiah seniors. I am proud of their soccer accomplishments and the character with which they achieved those accomplishments. I wish them the same success in the rest of their lives. (Of course, that goes for the seniors on all the other tournament teams as well).
I think this is the first Final 4 since 2003 without a Messiah Mens or Womens team involved. Weasel will correct me if I am wrong :)
Quote from: OldMCGuy on November 23, 2014, 04:18:45 PM
As an old Messiah fan, I want to congratulate Tufts. They played a terrific game. They earned the win and they deserved the win.
Great run for the Messiah seniors. I am proud of their soccer accomplishments and the character with which they achieved those accomplishments. I wish them the same success in the rest of their lives. (Of course, that goes for the seniors on all the other tournament teams as well).
I think this is the first Final 4 since 2003 without a Messiah Mens or Womens team involved. Weasel will correct me if I am wrong :)
Messiah should not hang their heads. Great champions. They played well today but so did Tufts. Kudos to a great game between the 2 teams...
Saw Kenyon-OWU live. Score was fair, Kenyon could have snagged one but OWU could have had a couple more as well. Total 180 from the first two games, this one was oddly comfortable for OWU. Kenyon was dealing with some injuries, and their stud CB was clearly playing hurt. It's a shame because I think he's been great all year, but he was really hobbled, which basically let OWU do whatever they wanted in the first half offensively.
Whether it was the injuries or other things, Kenyon didn't really show up today. I've seen probably a dozen Kenyon-OWU games, and this is the first time Kenyon hasn't pressed high up the field, especially early in the game.
Should be an interesting one tomorrow, I thought Whitworth was a bit better than CNU but Newport is just so fast and good on the break.
Congrats to OWU. I think some of us knew OWU was going to be a problem if both teams got there, and they definitely had the edge in the first half. Still not sure about giving a PK in that spot, but maybe he did really get fouled. Kenyon tried hard to get back in it and had some very good chances, and a goal might have changed things, but OWU continued to threaten as well and got the Lords very stretched throughout the game. Injuries definitely played a role. Glassman was in street clothes, Justice was playing on one leg and had to come out, and a couple of other starters played but were really limited.
Losing really sucks. Kenyon certainly had high hopes going in to the tournament. Kudos to the senior group who have gotten Kenyon very much on the D3 soccer map and now should stay there for a while.
Mr.Right, I missed the posts about Kenyon being compared to storied programs and any talk of coaching legends. They did have a very, very good season. They spent a good portion of the season ranked #2 in both polls and hosted two weekends in the NCAA tournament, but I'm glad you had such a nice day.
Oh, I almost forgot....remember your parting words to someone else in your as LaPaz blaze of glory exit? Right back at ya.
Just saw RH's post. Nothing to quibble about. And for those wondering I did introduce myself to him afterwards.
Agree on Whitworth-CNU too. Whitworth should have been up 3-1 in first half but instead were down 2-0 after CNU's first 2 shots. They were in Gambier for days and not sure if the postponement played any role for any of the teams. It did feel weird playing sweet 16 game when Wheaton already was in final 4.
Forgot one thing...OWU GK made a phenomenal save on a free kick from about 5 yards outside the box with 30+ or so to go that was a big play.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 23, 2014, 06:11:11 PM
Saw Kenyon-OWU live. Score was fair, Kenyon could have snagged one but OWU could have had a couple more as well. Total 180 from the first two games, this one was oddly comfortable for OWU. Kenyon was dealing with some injuries, and their stud CB was clearly playing hurt. It's a shame because I think he's been great all year, but he was really hobbled, which basically let OWU do whatever they wanted in the first half offensively.
Whether it was the injuries or other things, Kenyon didn't really show up today. I've seen probably a dozen Kenyon-OWU games, and this is the first time Kenyon hasn't pressed high up the field, especially early in the game.
Should be an interesting one tomorrow, I thought Whitworth was a bit better than CNU but Newport is just so fast and good on the break.
"Soccer is a cruel mistress . . " really feel for Whitworth - fantastic, technical team. Two moments of weakness on counter-attacks - down 2. Credit to CNU - did what they had to do to get the W.
OWU came out from the opening whistle and pushed the play. More physical, more hungry. This being the third game I've seen Kenyon play in the past 8 days - Kenyon player's heads weren't in the right spot. Lots of chirping at opponents, lots of complaining about calls. Thought Rieger had an excellent game.
Rematch of last year's match at OWU between CNU and OWU. Can't see how this game will be played on grass - going to get near an inch of rain overnight - hope they move the game to the turf football field if conditions worsen.
Don't know if it's been asked and/or answered but I saw Messiah women lost also... When was the last final four that neither the Messiah men's or women's team made it???
My bracket is blown besides the left side I think. IMO I think it's Wheaton's championship to lose now
2003 was last time neither messiah team was in final 4
As the Tufts players and their fans rushed towards each other following the expiration of time, my 3-1/2 year old daughter, who likes going to Messiah games even though she and her younger brother don't really seem to pay much attention to the games, perceived that the game had ended and turned to mommy and in a sullen tone said, "the white team didn't score any goals." She thinks they're supposed to score goals for her, and until today they had never let her down. My wife and kids come along to most all home games and we also get to a lot of away games, but in more than at least 60 games they had never seen Messiah lose or get shutout having stayed home the night Neumann upset the Falcons in 2011 and again skipping last year's conference semifinal elimination on PK's. My wife turned to her and confirmed that, no, Messiah had not scored today and that they had lost. She started to cry. What a bittersweet moment for a proud Dad and gutted Messiah fan.
To treat the kids (and to take my mind off the loss) we hit a nearby playground before the 1-hour drive home. With another few hours to reflect, here's my take and impressions from the game.
Messiah played well today—not their best ever performance for sure—but still quite good. Good enough to usually win, even against a good opponent. The ball didn't bounce their way today at the moments that could have turned the game (i.e scoreboard) in their favor: a few off the post and crossbar and that shot Tufts cleared off the line. So it felt like even though Tufts did a great job of minimizing Messiah's chances on goal, that the Falcons had still done enough to equalize and even go ahead. Just wasn't to be, I guess.
Full credit to Tufts. There's different approaches to be taken to try to beat Messiah (Kenyon demonstrated one in last year's Sweet 16, Neumann quite another in 2011), but they all involve keeping Messiah off the scoreboard for as long as possible (DUH!, I know.). But if on top of that you can score early, that can be huge, not least of all because of the confidence boast and the removal of any lingering doubt of whether you can play with the 10-time champions. With that doubt removed, you can play your game, trusting in yourself and your teammates. Tufts was fortunate with how the clearance from their opening minute free kick fell to so nicely to Jason Kayne, but he still needed to rip the perfect upper-90 shot or we have a different ball game. The kid made the chance count with aplomb. Tip of the hat to him. Little chance for Messiah's keeper who did come up big on a couple other occasions.
Tufts played the rest of the game with the very good balance of defensive compactness and limited but far from non-existent offensive forays. I think they got the game plan just right for so long as the game stayed 1-0 in their favor (which it did until the end). They continued to create the occasional dangerous chance and kept Messiah's defense on their toes throughout. Messiah's defense was up to the task for the most part, though there were some nervy moments.
In possession, I think Messiah displayed their skill and illustrated what makes them best team in D-III. The Falcons' great touches, control, short passing, and combination play were on good display despite Tufts playing good, tough defense and closing the Falcons down quickly without losing their shape and compactness. However, regardless of how impressively the Falcons worked the ball through Tufts' challenges, the time it took to advance the ball into the offensive third meant the Jumbos always had the middle of the field crowded, giving Messiah no room to work in and around the top of the area. Thus the low shot total for the Falcons. Tufts did a great job of making sure defenders didn't get isolated on Payne and making sure he had little time or space to turn. One of the few times he did, he almost scored the equalizer.
Tufts is a very good team and they certainly did not lack for self-belief, they certainly were not afraid of Messiah, and they clearly and genuinely relished the chance to knock off the kings of Division III. You combine that with an early goal, an effective game plan and the players to execute it well, and some good fortune with the Messiah shots off the woodwork and you have yourself a win. Messiah will rue those shots off the woodwork and the goal-line clearance, but they can have no complaints as Tufts worked hard, played well, and earned what they got.
I feel bad for the Messiah seniors. Just when you think Messiah can't get any better, they did take the level of play to yet another level. They very likely are the best class to pass through the Messiah program and that's saying something. And yet, they will be the first class in 10 years to leave with just two championship rings instead of three. Sure, there's no reason for anyone else to feel sorry for players with two national titles. But they brought as much or more skill and as much or more effort and as much or more heart as their predecessors, and as a fan you still somehow feel they "deserved" better even though you know that's not how sports works, especially not in soccer.
For the neutrals, it's going to be great to have a Messiah-free Final Four (women eliminated on PK's in the unfortunate #1-#2 Elite 8 match). There's going to be a new champion though maybe not a first-time champion.
The fall soccer season is a fun time of year going to the games, and so it's always a sad when the season ends, and all the more so when it ends in a loss. The offseason is way too long and next season can't get here soon enough.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
That was hardly a weak Arcadia team, they had white, degeorge, pocaroba, wimsey, etc - a bunch of guys I played with after school - and were more than deserving of a place in the elite 8
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 11:18:35 AM
I am going to blast Oneonta and Muhlenberg in a letter to their AD and SID. I know it will not do anything but they should realize this product is an embarrassment
Good - maybe next year they'll just cancel their video and we'll see how much you complain...get a grip
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 23, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
That was hardly a weak Arcadia team, they had white, degeorge, pocaroba, wimsey, etc - a bunch of guys I played with after school - and were more than deserving of a place in the elite 8
Yeah, that was a pretty darn good Arcadia side. Their star rose and fell fairly quickly with their coach--name escapes me at the moment--moving on. But for a few years with that group of players, they had a high-octane attack.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 10:19:37 PM
As the Tufts players and their fans rushed towards each other following the expiration of time, my 3-1/2 year old daughter, who likes going to Messiah games even though she and her younger brother don't really seem to pay much attention to the games, perceived that the game had ended and turned to mommy and in a sullen tone said, "the white team didn't score any goals." She thinks they're supposed to score goals for her, and until today they had never let her down. My wife and kids come along to most all home games and we also get to a lot of away games, but in more than at least 60 games they had never seen Messiah lose or get shutout having stayed home the night Neumann upset the Falcons in 2011 and again skipping last year's conference semifinal elimination on PK's. My wife turned to her and confirmed that, no, Messiah had not scored today and that they had lost. She started to cry. What a bittersweet moment for a proud Dad and gutted Messiah fan.
To treat the kids (and to take my mind off the loss) we hit a nearby playground before the 1-hour drive home. With another few hours to reflect, here's my take and impressions from the game.
Messiah played well today—not their best ever performance for sure—but still quite good. Good enough to usually win, even against a good opponent. The ball didn't bounce their way today at the moments that could have turned the game (i.e scoreboard) in their favor: a few off the post and crossbar and that shot Tufts cleared off the line. So it felt like even though Tufts did a great job of minimizing Messiah's chances on goal, that the Falcons had still done enough to equalize and even go ahead. Just wasn't to be, I guess.
Full credit to Tufts. There's different approaches to be taken to try to beat Messiah (Kenyon demonstrated one in last year's Sweet 16, Neumann quite another in 2011), but they all involve keeping Messiah off the scoreboard for as long as possible (DUH!, I know.). But if on top of that you can score early, that can be huge, not least of all because of the confidence boast and the removal of any lingering doubt of whether you can play with the 10-time champions. With that doubt removed, you can play your game, trusting in yourself and your teammates. Tufts was fortunate with how the clearance from their opening minute free kick fell to so nicely to Jason Kayne, but he still needed to rip the perfect upper-90 shot or we have a different ball game. The kid made the chance count with aplomb. Tip of the hat to him. Little chance for Messiah's keeper who did come up big on a couple other occasions.
Tufts played the rest of the game with the very good balance of defensive compactness and limited but far from non-existent offensive forays. I think they got the game plan just right for so long as the game stayed 1-0 in their favor (which it did until the end). They continued to create the occasional dangerous chance and kept Messiah's defense on their toes throughout. Messiah's defense was up to the task for the most part, though there were some nervy moments.
In possession, I think Messiah displayed their skill and illustrated what makes them best team in D-III. The Falcons' great touches, control, short passing, and combination play were on good display despite Tufts playing good, tough defense and closing the Falcons down quickly without losing their shape and compactness. However, regardless of how impressively the Falcons worked the ball through Tufts' challenges, the time it took to advance the ball into the offensive third meant the Jumbos always had the middle of the field crowded, giving Messiah no room to work in and around the top of the area. Thus the low shot total for the Falcons. Tufts did a great job of making sure defenders didn't get isolated on Payne and making sure he had little time or space to turn. One of the few times he did, he almost scored the equalizer.
Tufts is a very good team and they certainly did not lack for self-belief, they certainly were not afraid of Messiah, and they clearly and genuinely relished the chance to knock off the kings of Division III. You combine that with an early goal, an effective game plan and the players to execute it well, and some good fortune with the Messiah shots off the woodwork and you have yourself a win. Messiah will rue those shots off the woodwork and the goal-line clearance, but they can have no complaints as Tufts worked hard, played well, and earned what they got.
I feel bad for the Messiah seniors. Just when you think Messiah can't get any better, they did take the level of play to yet another level. They very likely are the best class to pass through the Messiah program and that's saying something. And yet, they will be the first class in 10 years to leave with just two championship rings instead of three. Sure, there's no reason for anyone else to feel sorry for players with two national titles. But they brought as much or more skill and as much or more effort and as much or more heart as their predecessors, and as a fan you still somehow feel they "deserved" better even though you know that's not how sports works, especially not in soccer.
For the neutrals, it's going to be great to have a Messiah-free Final Four (women eliminated on PK's in the unfortunate #1-#2 Elite 8 match). There's going to be a new champion though maybe not a first-time champion.
The fall soccer season is a fun time of year going to the games, and so it's always a sad when the season ends, and all the more so when it ends in a loss. The offseason is way too long and next season can't get here soon enough.
From what I saw on video, your analysis is spot on. Messiah plays beautiful soccer with great organization and technical skills. They could have scored twice. But Santos and Kayne could have also added additional tallies. The Messiah keeper came up big. tufts did just enough to make it a little difficult for the Mesiah middies. How far was the Tufts goal from. it looked like from outside the box. I really appreciate your first hand analysis!
Great post FW. First reaction is that a Messiah fan doesn't deserve to feel as bad as I do, which then makes me ask why my feeling bad/sad should seem any deeper or more poignant than for the
players/families of Thomas More who, honestly deserved to move on last week as much as Kenyon, or the Calvin kids/families, any other players/families, and especially the senior groups, where the ending (as in the real, real ending, hanging up the boots, last game ending) comes including for all the teams who don't even get to the tournament. And then in that context of course the Messiah
players/families/friends DO feel just as bad. The ultimate feeling of exhilaration can ony happen for one team, and it is nice if that can be passed around a little bit. I'm not a Tufts fan but I am happy for them. They broke through. Just as I hoped would happen for Kenyon (and I was perhaps overly sensitive to the whole curse/fate thing...and then, when you lose, and your team wasn't whole at the wrong time against the curse team, well, then, you feel like that is EXACTLY what happened) and Brandeis and maybe a couple of others. But MY team I suppose doesn't deserve to break through more than any other team, although the sentiment that it sucks for the rich to get richer seems permissable.
I'm rambling. Still in the stage of replaying everything and just remembering that after taking on water for the first 20 or so minutes today it was actually Kenyon that had a ball hit the underside of the crossbar and almost go over the line to get the first goal, and a minute or two later the PK comes for OWU. The feeling really sucks, even when I (sort of) know my team didn't really do enough to really deserve to win today.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 23, 2014, 03:27:04 PM
So much for Kenyon..All you Kenyon lovers they are getting beat in every facet by Ohio Wesleyan. For all those that compared them to storied programs and anointing their coaches legends they have not been to a Final 4 since the legendary Jack Ketchen took some great teams in the mid 90's
A very disappointing performance by Kenyon - had them winning it all.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 10:19:37 PM
As the Tufts players and their fans rushed towards each other following the expiration of time, my 3-1/2 year old daughter, who likes going to Messiah games even though she and her younger brother don't really seem to pay much attention to the games, perceived that the game had ended and turned to mommy and in a sullen tone said, "the white team didn't score any goals." She thinks they're supposed to score goals for her, and until today they had never let her down. My wife and kids come along to most all home games and we also get to a lot of away games, but in more than at least 60 games they had never seen Messiah lose or get shutout having stayed home the night Neumann upset the Falcons in 2011 and again skipping last year's conference semifinal elimination on PK's. My wife turned to her and confirmed that, no, Messiah had not scored today and that they had lost. She started to cry. What a bittersweet moment for a proud Dad and gutted Messiah fan.
I
To treat the kids (and to take my mind off the loss) we hit a nearby playground before the 1-hour drive home. With another few hours to reflect, here's my take and impressions from the game.
Messiah played well today—not their best ever performance for sure—but still quite good. Good enough to usually win, even against a good opponent. The ball didn't bounce their way today at the moments that could have turned the game (i.e scoreboard) in their favor: a few off the post and crossbar and that shot Tufts cleared off the line. So it felt like even though Tufts did a great job of minimizing Messiah's chances on goal, that the Falcons had still done enough to equalize and even go ahead. Just wasn't to be, I guess.
Full credit to Tufts. There's different approaches to be taken to try to beat Messiah (Kenyon demonstrated one in last year's Sweet 16, Neumann quite another in 2011), but they all involve keeping Messiah off the scoreboard for as long as possible (DUH!, I know.). But if on top of that you can score early, that can be huge, not least of all because of the confidence boast and the removal of any lingering doubt of whether you can play with the 10-time champions. With that doubt removed, you can play your game, trusting in yourself and your teammates. Tufts was fortunate with how the clearance from their opening minute free kick fell to so nicely to Jason Kayne, but he still needed to rip the perfect upper-90 shot or we have a different ball game. The kid made the chance count with aplomb. Tip of the hat to him. Little chance for Messiah's keeper who did come up big on a couple other occasions.
Tufts played the rest of the game with the very good balance of defensive compactness and limited but far from non-existent offensive forays. I think they got the game plan just right for so long as the game stayed 1-0 in their favor (which it did until the end). They continued to create the occasional dangerous chance and kept Messiah's defense on their toes throughout. Messiah's defense was up to the task for the most part, though there were some nervy moments.
In possession, I think Messiah displayed their skill and illustrated what makes them best team in D-III. The Falcons' great touches, control, short passing, and combination play were on good display despite Tufts playing good, tough defense and closing the Falcons down quickly without losing their shape and compactness. However, regardless of how impressively the Falcons worked the ball through Tufts' challenges, the time it took to advance the ball into the offensive third meant the Jumbos always had the middle of the field crowded, giving Messiah no room to work in and around the top of the area. Thus the low shot total for the Falcons. Tufts did a great job of making sure defenders didn't get isolated on Payne and making sure he had little time or space to turn. One of the few times he did, he almost scored the equalizer.
Tufts is a very good team and they certainly did not lack for self-belief, they certainly were not afraid of Messiah, and they clearly and genuinely relished the chance to knock off the kings of Division III. You combine that with an early goal, an effective game plan and the players to execute it well, and some good fortune with the Messiah shots off the woodwork and you have yourself a win. Messiah will rue those shots off the woodwork and the goal-line clearance, but they can have no complaints as Tufts worked hard, played well, and earned what they got.
I feel bad for the Messiah seniors. Just when you think Messiah can't get any better, they did take the level of play to yet another level. They very likely are the best class to pass through the Messiah program and that's saying something. And yet, they will be the first class in 10 years to leave with just two championship rings instead of three. Sure, there's no reason for anyone else to feel sorry for players with two national titles. But they brought as much or more skill and as much or more effort and as much or more heart as their predecessors, and as a fan you still somehow feel they "deserved" better even though you know that's not how sports works, especially not in soccer.
For the neutrals, it's going to be great to have a Messiah-free Final Four (women eliminated on PK's in the unfortunate #1-#2 Elite 8 match). There's going to be a new champion though maybe not a first-time champion.
The fall soccer season is a fun time of year going to the games, and so it's always a sad when the season ends, and all the more so when it ends in a loss. The offseason is way too long and next season can't get here soon enough.
Yes, very good and non-biased analysis. It is hard to gauge things sometimes from the video feed. The one thing I notice is that many people make comments about teams when they have never seen them play in person. So, this report is excellent. One thing I could see though was the Tufts goal was a real cracker...and as mentioned above, messiah's midfield play is exciting to watch. The Tufts midfield also played well and exerted a lot of energy. Messiah should be proud of the way they play soccer....u can't win every year. And Tufts should be proud of what they accomplished today. Not many teams could pull off what they did today.
Quote from: Nutmeg on November 23, 2014, 11:10:29 PM
From what I saw on video, your analysis is spot on. Messiah plays beautiful soccer with great organization and technical skills. They could have scored twice. But Santos and Kayne could have also added additional tallies. The Messiah keeper came up big. tufts did just enough to make it a little difficult for the Mesiah middies. How far was the Tufts goal from. it looked like from outside the box. I really appreciate your first hand analysis!
A step or two outside the area, if memory serves.
wow-wingtips way to jump on the band wagon an attack me...SOrry that 2002 Arcadia team was not great they were ok. They played 10 deep the entire game against Williams and won in PK's. They had a coach who is now at Villinova- Carlin- and a cagey CM who I do not remember the name of. They could barely keep up with Williams Jamaicans that day and were extremely lucky to survive. Enough wasting keystrokes on such a useless topic.
Stay classy NCAC..sleep well tonight
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 23, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
That was hardly a weak Arcadia team, they had white, degeorge, pocaroba, wimsey, etc - a bunch of guys I played with after school - and were more than deserving of a place in the elite 8
Yeah, that was a pretty darn good Arcadia side. Their star rose and fell fairly quickly with their coach--name escapes me at the moment--moving on. But for a few years with that group of players, they had a high-octane attack.
They also played in a shoe-box.
The CM you are referring to is Tommy DeGeorge. Had both he and Robbie White attended Arcadia for four years instead of transferring in from Manor College... they might have made a final four or kept the program on the map longer. If you had to ask me who was a better player: Jeremy Payne or Tommy DeGeorge... I'm going with Tommy.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 10:19:37 PM
Tufts played the rest of the game with the very good balance of defensive compactness and limited but far from non-existent offensive forays. I think they got the game plan just right for so long as the game stayed 1-0 in their favor (which it did until the end). They continued to create the occasional dangerous chance and kept Messiah's defense on their toes throughout. Messiah's defense was up to the task for the most part, though there were some nervy moments.
In possession, I think Messiah displayed their skill and illustrated what makes them best team in D-III. The Falcons' great touches, control, short passing, and combination play were on good display despite Tufts playing good, tough defense and closing the Falcons down quickly without losing their shape and compactness. However, regardless of how impressively the Falcons worked the ball through Tufts' challenges, the time it took to advance the ball into the offensive third meant the Jumbos always had the middle of the field crowded, giving Messiah no room to work in and around the top of the area. Thus the low shot total for the Falcons. Tufts did a great job of making sure defenders didn't get isolated on Payne and making sure he had little time or space to turn. One of the few times he did, he almost scored the equalizer.
Tufts is a very good team and they certainly did not lack for self-belief, they certainly were not afraid of Messiah, and they clearly and genuinely relished the chance to knock off the kings of Division III. You combine that with an early goal, an effective game plan and the players to execute it well, and some good fortune with the Messiah shots off the woodwork and you have yourself a win. Messiah will rue those shots off the woodwork and the goal-line clearance, but they can have no complaints as Tufts worked hard, played well, and earned what they got.
I feel bad for the Messiah seniors. Just when you think Messiah can't get any better, they did take the level of play to yet another level. They very likely are the best class to pass through the Messiah program and that's saying something. And yet, they will be the first class in 10 years to leave with just two championship rings instead of three. Sure, there's no reason for anyone else to feel sorry for players with two national titles. But they brought as much or more skill and as much or more effort and as much or more heart as their predecessors, and as a fan you still somehow feel they "deserved" better even though you know that's not how sports works, especially not in soccer.
Great summary Flying Weasel. Being a follower of the team, is that the best you've seen a team play against Messiah this year? It was funny- while watching the second half I kep thinking to myself "well, if Messiah scores they deserve it...and then immediately thinking "well, if Tufts scores they deserve it too". While Messiah was unlucky not to score (clearance off the line, off the crossbar), I also thought that Tufts played very well picking times to go forward and counter and felt as though Santos or Hoppenot could have added an insurance goal if not for some great goalkeeping. It was an extremely entertaining game!
Also, the unsung hero for me was the CB for Messiah, #21. If not for him, I think Tufts gets another goal. He was calm on the ball and made excellent decisions when Tufts brought numbers forward. He and Hoppenot had a great little moment after they fouled each other- they got up and patted each other on the back and shook hands. Class on both sides after a hard-fought battle.
Dumbest question of the year will be awarded to me... but will this Messiah/Tufts game be on youtube or on demand? I missed the entire first half and was unable to connect to the live stream, just resorted to watching the not-so-live stats.
CNU 3-2 over OWU is the prediction today.
The game today is going to be interesting. Forecast in Gambier is 60s, but 30 MPH winds with gusts up to 55 MPH. It also poured all night so who knows how this will play out. The one thing I'd expect would be goals.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on November 24, 2014, 10:29:34 AM
The game today is going to be interesting. Forecast in Gambier is 60s, but 30 MPH winds with gusts up to 55 MPH. It also poured all night so who knows how this will play out. The one thing I'd expect would be goals.
Line of strong storms moving through Columbus right now (11:20 am). Impossible to say how this game will turn out under these conditions. Watched OSU at ND last night - players needed scuba gear.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 24, 2014, 10:19:52 AM
Great summary Flying Weasel. Being a follower of the team, is that the best you've seen a team play against Messiah this year? It was funny- while watching the second half I kep thinking to myself "well, if Messiah scores they deserve it...and then immediately thinking "well, if Tufts scores they deserve it too". While Messiah was unlucky not to score (clearance off the line, off the crossbar), I also thought that Tufts played very well picking times to go forward and counter and felt as though Santos or Hoppenot could have added an insurance goal if not for some great goalkeeping. It was an extremely entertaining game!
Also, the unsung hero for me was the CB for Messiah, #21. If not for him, I think Tufts gets another goal. He was calm on the ball and made excellent decisions when Tufts brought numbers forward. He and Hoppenot had a great little moment after they fouled each other- they got up and patted each other on the back and shook hands. Class on both sides after a hard-fought battle.
Yes, given that York was only a shadow of what they have been, Montclair State was a step down this year, and Cortland State obviously weren't up to the task on Saturday, Tufts would have to represent the toughest opponent for the Falcons this season. Over the past decade, the best team to play Messiah straight up and succeed in beating the Falcons at their own game has been York. Trinity edged Messiah in the 2007 semifinal playing the Falcons straight-up with both team playing well and cancelling each other out. Loras played Messiah straight-up in the 2012 semifinal and pushed Messiah to the limit. Those are some of the few examples of teams matching Messiah without compromising their attack-minded style and approach. Tufts doesn't play as close a style to Messiah as those teams and it doesn't seem that they truly played the Falcons straight up--I'm guessing they played a bit more defensive, more compact, with more players behind the ball than they usually do against most opponents. And that's not to take anything away from Tufts as the name of the game is to do what it takes to win and move on, and Tufts did that. But I don't categorize the game with some of those other epic battles I mentioned. It may be in its own category as it's also certainly not a Neumann situation of a lopsided game won by the inferior 10-men behind the ball for 90 minutes team. Last years's Kenyon match in the Sweet 16 had a very similar feel to the Tufts game except that Messiah came through with the win in the end. It's rare, but Messiah has occasionally been outplayed by an opponent on the day (e.g. CNU in the 2008 Elite 8), but found a way to win anyways. Messiah wasn't overmatched or outplayed by Tufts. Matched, neutralized, stalemated, etc. would be far better characterizations, IMO.
And, yes, #21 Carter Robbins is one cool customer. He exudes calmness . . . to the point of almost appearing dangerously non-chalant at times. But he can be as fiesty and combative (in a good way) as they come, as you noticed in that taggle with Hoppenot. There's a reason he's been named an All-American. Messiah has had a lot of top notch centerbacks over the years, but I'm pretty sure none have ever made the job
look so effortless (which it certainly isn't).
I've known quite a few players well enough to ask them, after four years, which teams did they regard as the toughest opponents in that period. Three of the most common answers from past seasons (not this season): Loras, Williams (referring to the epic 0-0 game here http://www.messiah.edu/gomessiah/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2006/ncaamess.htm), and UC-Santa Cruz (despite the fact that Messiah blew it open by scoring on their first 3 shots to win the national title). Other teams come up also, but those 3 came up quite a bit--especially Williams. If memory serves, Williams had us beaten, except for an unbelievable save (according to the Williams radio team, who kept saying it) by Dustin Shambach, who was probably the best keeper we've ever had.
Surprised Gustavus in the 2005 Final doesn't show up on the list of best teams Messiah has played. GAC had a goal called back, statistics are basically even. Goal midway through the second half by Lenehan sealed it.
Fun fact about the 2004 UC-Santa Cruz team... They had Stephen Wondolowski on their team, younger brother of Chris Wondowloski, USMNT.
Have to go with OWU in this one.
Just not convinced a new champion will be crowned this season.
I think OWU is a bit down this year but lets see what this game offers
The way that wind is blowing it is probably a good thing there is no audio
early goals...love em or hate em..this one is debatable
let's see if we have one of those freakish situations where the ball is played by a defender and it curls back towards his goal . . .
I hope so I need some high drama for this dreary afternoon
it looks like OWU is going against the wind 1st half...Biggest rule of thumb in soccer is if you win the coin flip is always take the wind as you never know when it can change direction
CNU attacking nicely with 5 but with the wind they need to take a chance and get a goal before the 1st half ends.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2014, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 23, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
That was hardly a weak Arcadia team, they had white, degeorge, pocaroba, wimsey, etc - a bunch of guys I played with after school - and were more than deserving of a place in the elite 8
Yeah, that was a pretty darn good Arcadia side. Their star rose and fell fairly quickly with their coach--name escapes me at the moment--moving on. But for a few years with that group of players, they had a high-octane attack.
They also played in a shoe-box.
The CM you are referring to is Tommy DeGeorge. Had both he and Robbie White attended Arcadia for four years instead of transferring in from Manor College... they might have made a final four or kept the program on the map longer. If you had to ask me who was a better player: Jeremy Payne or Tommy DeGeorge... I'm going with Tommy.
That's a big statement - I love Tommy, but his mobility (or lack thereof) kept him from being truly dominant.
As for the DeGeorge/White/Barry crew, they made the 8 as seniors - Pocoroba and Wimsey kept them competitive for a couple years after that, but they just didn't transition once Carlin left.
#12,10 and 4 are legit for CNU..very entertaining game so far
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 24, 2014, 01:33:46 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2014, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 23, 2014, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 23, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I hate to say it but when this sort of thing happens, moving venues this could turn into a Sunday-Monday affair or even Monday-Tuesday...They will most likely move it to the closest Turf field available but if traffic is stuck who knows.
This happened in 2002 Keene St sectional...Arcadia beat Keene st and Williams beat defending national champion Richard Stockton. They woke up to a ice storm and could not use Keene St field. Arcadia v Williams got moved to Southern CT State and Williams lost in PK's to a much weaker Arcadia side. One of Williams worst losses in an NCAA tournament
That was hardly a weak Arcadia team, they had white, degeorge, pocaroba, wimsey, etc - a bunch of guys I played with after school - and were more than deserving of a place in the elite 8
Yeah, that was a pretty darn good Arcadia side. Their star rose and fell fairly quickly with their coach--name escapes me at the moment--moving on. But for a few years with that group of players, they had a high-octane attack.
They also played in a shoe-box.
The CM you are referring to is Tommy DeGeorge. Had both he and Robbie White attended Arcadia for four years instead of transferring in from Manor College... they might have made a final four or kept the program on the map longer. If you had to ask me who was a better player: Jeremy Payne or Tommy DeGeorge... I'm going with Tommy.
That's a big statement - I love Tommy, but his mobility (or lack thereof) kept him from being truly dominant.
As for the DeGeorge/White/Barry crew, they made the 8 as seniors - Pocoroba and Wimsey kept them competitive for a couple years after that, but they just didn't transition once Carlin left.
In general, the pace is the only category that would put Payne ahead of Deg. Between his free kicks and the ability to distribute against the grain... He was a very special player.
I like CNU skill and team speed but they are over matched in the air. #11 for OWU should be playing for Ohio State. He has a D1 players build
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2014, 01:04:05 PM
I think OWU is a bit down this year but lets see what this game offers
they were in a down year when they won in '98, too....
their '99-'01 teams were better - especially the '00 vintage that lost to Linfield despite dominating and were denied the dream matchup against Messiah in the semis. Van Horn, Hoffman, Miller, Ty, Dunlap...that was an outstanding squad.
there 98 team was not a very good National Champion. They are athletic and have some skill but remind me of a Bowdoin or Middlebury from Nescac on steriods
This ref is fit and all but is kind of a homer IMO
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2014, 02:11:15 PM
This ref is fit and all but is kind of a homer IMO
Got a phone call - missed the PK call - what was it?
on the toilet if you cared. I have missed more goals(maybe 10) for getting drinks, bathroom breaks and staring at my white wall this tournament than I can rememeber
With the monster wind advantage this game is hook line and sinker for OWU...OWU v Tufts and Wheaton v Oneonta...very interesting matchups
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2014, 02:10:40 PM
there 98 team was not a very good National Champion. They are athletic and have some skill but remind me of a Bowdoin or Middlebury from Nescac on steriods
iirc, they beat both trinity and williams on the way to the title. but they also had the good fortune of playing every game at home...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2014, 02:22:30 PM
on the toilet if you cared. I have missed more goals(maybe 10) for getting drinks, bathroom breaks and staring at my white wall this tournament than I can rememeber
Possibly your best post yet...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2014, 02:28:50 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2014, 02:22:30 PM
on the toilet if you cared. I have missed more goals(maybe 10) for getting drinks, bathroom breaks and staring at my white wall this tournament than I can rememeber
Possibly your best post yet...
Couldn't agree more... Detailed, factual, and not rude. Impressive how much Mr. Right has turned his message board game around since the beginning of the tournament.
Just tuned into the webcast of the game... Holy wind.
GAME ON
nice sequence by CNU. They have been doing this all game but finally get a legit final pass and finish. 4 minutes left
OMG what a comeback by CNU....
This is THE BEST FINISH OF THE TOURNAMENT....86th minute 2 goals on beautiful sequences...what a turn by the CNU midfielder
as Raj from Big Bang would say - "Holy Crap!"
30 seconds left and they tie it up! WOW, great heart and fight!
this took the dreary out of my day.
Looks like OWU won the important coin toss in OT also see someones backup GK warming up for PK's on the field adjacent
This is taking me back to 2008 when Binger scored on CNU with 1 min left to force OT...
In 2009 CNU's most likely last trip to the Elite 8 they lost to Williams in PK's on York's field. They played a game similar to this but not quite as good. However, once in PK's they were ill prepared and I think missed 3 of 4. Let's see if things have changed in 5 years
How does one go about checking SOS's.... Are the updated each weekend? Will they be updated after this past weekend? Thanks.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 24, 2014, 03:22:01 PM
How does one go about checking SOS's.... Are the updated each weekend? Will they be updated after this past weekend? Thanks.
The one's that don't mean anything are updated often. Bennett Rankings are done weekly and the Massey ratings seem to be done just about everyday...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 24, 2014, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 24, 2014, 03:22:01 PM
How does one go about checking SOS's.... Are the updated each weekend? Will they be updated after this past weekend? Thanks.
The one's that don't mean anything are updated often. Bennett Rankings are done weekly and the Massey ratings seem to be done just about everyday...
Thanks! This may be a loaded question but what rankings system do you guys feel are most accurate?
OWU keeper doing his best Thomas Bull impression. Once again, ref needs to take charge here and tell him to get on his line. I'm sick of this posturing! It makes me want to root against the kid...
OWU pulls it out after almost throwing it away.
That OWU keeper was a nightmare. If I was that 1st CNU kicker I would have pummeled that kid. That was 10 times worse than Bull. After a save he was taunting the kid
I may be Mr. Wrong and I am definitely biased, but I'll disagree with the officiating comment. IMO, the official needed to hand out a few more cards. Physical play is one thing, and CNU's second half tactics are something completely different. It was still a great game to watch, with very emotional players, miserable weather and field conditions, and huge momentum shifts. I feel like the OWU-Kenyon game was much more polished. But I could be Mr. Wrong ;D
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 24, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
OWU keeper doing his best Thomas Bull impression. Once again, ref needs to take charge here and tell him to get on his line. I'm sick of this posturing! It makes me want to root against the kid...
I thought it more like Krul during this summer's WC. The lack of response by the officials then just swung the door wide open for players to emulate. Krul actually poked a kicker in the chest! FWIW: Beemiller was carded during the KFTM in the Calvin game.
CNU was more physical and I thought more technical than OWU. OWU was way more athletic
With Messiah now out, I would think Wheaton has got to be the favorite to win it. You may or may not like their super fast paced, almost frantic north/south racetrack style of play - but it gives a lot of team fits.
I agree that Wheaton is the favorite at this point, but it's interesting how Oneonta almost seems discounted. They are the last and only undefeated team in the country. And either Tufts or OWU is going to be in the final. Amazing tournament.
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 24, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
OWU keeper doing his best Thomas Bull impression. Once again, ref needs to take charge here and tell him to get on his line. I'm sick of this posturing! It makes me want to root against the kid...
So proof that Bull doesn't own the rights to the antics. Brandeis keeper did the same vs. Amherst on Saturday. It's a goalkeeper thing--not specific to one player.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 24, 2014, 06:11:23 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 24, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
OWU keeper doing his best Thomas Bull impression. Once again, ref needs to take charge here and tell him to get on his line. I'm sick of this posturing! It makes me want to root against the kid...
So proof that Bull doesn't own the rights to the antics. Brandeis keeper did the same vs. Amherst on Saturday. It's a goalkeeper thing--not specific to one player.
I never said it was a Bologne type of thing (Bull Only...sorry), but just that I hate when the refs don't take charge early. Trying to mess with the shooter and jumping around on the goal line is fine, but taunting before and after the shot is over the line. Put it this way...imagine if after a kick taker scored, he walked right up to the keeper and clapped in his face while sneering...
In my mind, it's a complete double standard. I'm all for gamesmanship, but I also respect a bit of class now and then!
The standard should be something like, if you do something that during the regular course of the game would draw a yellow then the GK should get a yellow, be warned, and ejected if he does it again. I'm surprised referees aren't taught some standard about how to do deal with PK shootouts. And there should be a standard about how the ball is given to the kickers, like always directly from the referee. You never see NBA players at the foul line, or college players for that matter, pass or hand the ball to free throw shooters.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 24, 2014, 07:32:39 PM
The standard should be something like, if you do something that during the regular course of the game would draw a yellow then the GK should get a yellow, be warned, and ejected if he does it again. I'm surprised referees aren't taught some standard about how to do deal with PK shootouts. And there should be a standard about how the ball is given to the kickers, like always directly from the referee. You never see NBA players at the foul line, or college players for that matter, pass or hand the ball to free throw shooters.
Exactly NCAC! Imagine if that were the case! Again, it's fine for keepers to try and psyche the opponent out, but some of the antics are ridiculous- if refs let that stuff go, then the shooter should be allowed to go to the keeper and give it right back! Of course, that would be an automatic yellow...hence the double standard.
Recap from OWU-CNU:
Whoever made the point about taking the wind first was spot on. CNU had the wind in the first half and it was the worst I've ever seen. There was one sequence where back-to-back clearances actually ended up behind the player who played the ball even though they hit it well. Then (of course) the wind lessened quite a bit in the second half. It was still a factor but not nearly as much, sun came out and the game played better.
Despite the wind, or perhaps because of it, OWU scored on a really nice attack early on. Through ball, lay off and a great cross for a diving header that CNU's goalie somehow saved. It looked like the wind held the ball up and brought it right to the same guy, who headed the rebound into an open net. CNU used the wind to basically dominate territory, but didn't even force OWU's keeper into a save in the first half.
OWU started the second half more in control but CNU had a quick breakaway that OWU's goalie stuffed early on. OWU then got a breakaway and a CNU defender football tackled the forward from behind, two hands around the waist, in the box. Penalty given, but the ref didn't even show a yellow. Should have been a straight red, no questions asked.
From that point, OWU was pretty comfortable and probably should have built on the lead. CNU is really fast and technical, especially going forward, but I question their defensive system. They played sweeper-stopper, and (especially in the second half) it let OWU have plenty of space in the gaps. With about 15 minutes to go it felt like the game was over, as CNU started getting really chippy (including another red-cardable tackle) and the pace of play really slowed down.
Almost out of nowhere, CNU played a great ball over the top and their player danced by an OWU defender before squaring for a deflected finish. Really nice goal. At that point, CNU really sprung into life, and OWU decided to shoot on goal with a 3-on-2 instead of going to the corner with 70 seconds left. Sure enough, CNU came straight back down and scored a great finish to even things up with 42 seconds left.
OT was decent from both sides but nothing really happened. CNU put in its backup GK but OWU's PKs were pretty good and the keeper made two saves.
Not to beat the dead horse but I agree on goalkeeper antics. The OWU goalie was actually better today than last time, because against Calvin the ref let him hand the ball to shooters and that led to all kinds of antics (in fairness, from both goalkeepers). Today the ref at least insisted on handing the ball to players although he did let the GK start right in front of the player and slowly backpedal into the goal. Fact remains, it's worth taking the chance to gain a mental edge, so if/until/unless a rule change happens GKs will keep doing it. Kenyon's goalie doing pull-ups on the crossbar, Calvin's doing some goofy dance, it's just going to happen.
Overall, CNU was as advertised, really good going forward and really soft in the back. Brown is a really good player, but OWU keyed on him and it was the guy who had two assists, #10 I think, that was the most effective attacking player. OWU's defense played great with the exception of that four minute period and was lucky that it was enough to survive and advance.
Based on results the Wheaton/Oneonta side is probably the favorite, but once you get to the Final Four, especially without Messiah, who knows. OWU's first title team had six losses, as many as any other team under Martin, so go figure. That's soccer for you.
A couple of last points from my perspective. First of all, you don't have to like a team/school to credit them. OWU, on paper at least, had a tough draw. Away at Calvin, a team many seemed to fall in love with. Caught a bit of a break with the venue being moved, but again, on paper, still closer to a home game for Calvin than OWU, get a late goal to level and then prevail in PKs. Then on to Kenyon, a team they played pretty evenly for almost 220 minutes. Again, away, sort of as OWU is close, the Kenyon students were gone, and OWU may even have edged the crowd, but more importantly there was nothing in this game for Kenyon to gain, and a ton of pressure to advance because these chances don't grow on trees and now OWU is sitting there. They already had accomplished the difficult task of finally beating OWU, and now, on paper favored, but not really, and with key injuries, OWU had nothing to lose. Martin commented that it might seem strange that his players looked forward to getting Kenyon again after a tie and a loss, but there was nothing strange in it at all. The dynamics favored OWU all the way, as we contentiously danced around here on this site. Then on to CNU, a very good but flawed team that was fortunate to get past perhaps the best team in the group, Whitworth. Throw in some other crazy dynamics like a full day delay and then today's very soggy field and extreme wind. Bottom line is some things may have fallen in OWU's favor but they went through three very good teams and are deserving of being in the Final Four. They are as good a bet to win it now as anyone. Either OWU or Tufts is going to be in the final, and if it's OWU then there's one game and I'm sure Martin would have some kind of plan for the other finalist. The Tufts game actually may be the tougher one (aside from the simple truth that the next one is always the toughest as there is nothing if you don't get that one), as Tufts is on a similar streak, is full of real confidence, and just beat the one team absolutely no one wanted to deal with.
It is uncanny how often OWU scores early in big games. Obviously that is something all teams would like to do, but OWU does it all the time. I remember watching one of the DePauw games this year and as I tuned in OWU was lined up for the kickoff and I assumed the game was starting and then I saw the scoreboard and saw 1-0 and the DePauw GK already had been replaced due to injury. Then they scored on Kenyon in the first 5 minutes of the NCAC final, and over the past several years I've seen it happen any number of times. They score in the first 3+ minutes today
I see there is some discussion of national COY. I doubt Martin would be under serious consideration since it is always assumed OWU is going to have a very good year, and it pains me to say this although I referenced this before, but he has done a phenomenal job with his team. He lost a ton of seniors (from a team we tend to forget that was unbeaten and ranked #1 almost the entire season), revamped his lineup in the middle of this season, has a frosh 5'5, 130 lbs right back starting who looks 14 or 15 but is good, and he's in the Final Four. He also seems to be very good at game planning and strategy. Against Kenyon, Bloecher played in more of a withdrawn forward/attacking mid role so that he could send piercing balls to Baum trying to split the center backs. I'm guessing Martin had to have a good idea about Justice's injury, but I doubt many coaches would go right at the other team's strength. I think this is part of the reason Kenyon didn't do the high pressure as usual because they were getting threatened early right down the middle and were worried about getting burned. They didn't press high because on the day they just weren't able to do so. Anyway, OWU has an enviable program. Messiah gets talked about all the time, but OWU is right up there. They seem like a big family, the parents have everything set up for everyone after the game, the alumni show up (which I assume is in part because most of the players from Ohio and many remain in Ohio), they play really good soccer, and they always think they are going to win.
Tufts might get them, but I wouldn't bet against them in a final.
Good post NCAC.
They certainly have a penchant for scoring first in big games and when they do, they normally come out on top. It's the games vs Transy, Rose-Hulman, etc. that they fail to score early and then they get themselves in a dog fight. I think Ryan H mentioned it earlier in the preview but they always play their best against better teams and tend to slip against some of those under dogs they may overlook.
I agree that this is one of Martin's better coaching jobs as well. They get shelacked at home 4-1 to Otterbein. And now has them in the final 4. Another crazy thought is how close they were to not getting in. If they don't jump JCU in the last poll with a loss vs Kenyon, then they don't make the tournament. They've definitely made the most of their "2nd chance"
Sounds like Tufts is a similar team to Kenyon in terms of style of play and physicality so their 3 match ups with Kenyon this year will have prepared them well for Tufts. Oneonta seniors and OWU seniors both share the same final 4 experience from 2011. The other two teams are all experiencing it themselves for the first time. I think Wheaton is the favorite. Will be interesting to see what the weather is and how it affects the play. Wheaton will surely have the biggest crowd being the closest university. That's a quick road trip for them. As noted by other posters...this final 4 is anyone's for the taking.
This is starting to get fun. It seems people are picking Wheaton or Oneonta. OWU and Tufts are playing with real confidence. I would like to see someone post the 4 teams SOS. Also, Tufts just beat Messiah. Again, Tufts just beat Messiah...something no one but Tufts thought was possible, and also something no one else has accomplished in some time. OWU just won a gut check game under poor conditions and just when you thought momentum was against them. I don't see how there is any favorite at this point... ::)
Midwest, the difference between Tufts and Kenyon right now is that Tufts has more offensive firepower with Santos, Kayne, Hoppenot, etc. OWU is going to have more to worry about defensively against Tufts.
In hindsight, maybe the early NESCAC tourney loss helped Tufts...saved their legs, let them get healthier if they had any injuries, and gave their coaching staff fuel for getting them re-focused.
Here's a challenge that should not be overlooked ... how do these teams handle a 2 week interval before playing again? Oneonta and OWU should have an idea having gone through it in 2011, but Wheaton and Tufts will have to figure that out - especially Tufts which is riding a lot of confidence and momentum. That can be tough to sustain for 2 weeks.
Does anyone know how the teams plan to prepare? Will they let the players go home for a time over Thanksgiving or keep them on campus?
all i can say is... Oneonta was on the radar a few years ago. Now, after a 2nd final 4 appearance vs yet another central team.... would like to see them win.
Programs over last 4-5 years:
1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Oneonta St
4) Trinity/OWU
6) Williams
7) Rutgers-Camden/Amherst/MSU
8) Wheaton/York
Please feel free to debate this one....
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 25, 2014, 02:03:37 AM
all i can say is... Oneonta was on the radar a few years ago. Now, after a 2nd final 4 appearance vs yet another central team.... would like to see them win.
Programs over last 4-5 years:
1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Oneonta St
4) Trinity/OWU
6) Williams
7) Rutgers-Camden/Amherst/MSU
8) Wheaton/York
Please feel free to debate this one....
Absolutely no debate about about #1 - 4 titles in 5 years and a 10-2-2 record against the other teams in that list including road wins at Oneonta (2013), OWU (2011), MSU (2014) and York (2011). 3-0 in final four games against that group. Only losses were to York in 2009 & 2013. I think a case can be made to move OWU up as they have a title during that span
Standard bearers of college soccer that do not reside in PA is simple.
Wheaton and OWU.
No one else comes in this category.
2 Stars, almost always dancing, and always somehow in the hunt when it matters.
These teams have been doing it consistently better than everyone else.
Whether 4-5 years (OWU ''11)
5-10 (Wheaton '06 finalist)
10-15 (Wheaton '99 Finalist)
15-20 (Wheaton '97 Champ, OWU 98 Champ)
I could actually go on, but being good for 4-5 years could be a great class, this type of fire comes from tradition.
I do think there are a few programs that will break in and are just a season or two (maybe away)
Amherst, Loras, Stevens, Oneonta, Trinity, and I'm sure I'm missing 2-3.
This is why we love this part of the year though, where greatness and history becons the hungriest and most together group.
Like a world cup tournament every year!!!
Good luck final 4.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 24, 2014, 10:48:37 PM
Midwest, the difference between Tufts and Kenyon right now is that Tufts has more offensive firepower with Santos, Kayne, Hoppenot, etc. OWU is going to have more to worry about defensively against Tufts.
In hindsight, maybe the early NESCAC tourney loss helped Tufts...saved their legs, let them get healthier if they had any injuries, and gave their coaching staff fuel for getting them re-focused.
I have to agree with this analysis...and that loss told them how important it is to come out strong at the start of the game....also, tufts has such diverse scoring and that makes them difficult to defend...
In the last 5 years...
1.) Messiah: No argument here. Very clear cut.
2.) OWU: 2 Final 4's, a Championship, an Elite 8 run.
3.) Loras: 2 Final 4's and numerous Sweet 16 appearances.
4.) Trinity: 3 or 4 Elite 8 losses for these guys. They play a great brand, just need to get back to the Final 4!
5.) Oneonta St: "New Kids on the block" featuring in their 2nd Final 4 in 4 years. Have proven over the last 4 years they can play with anyone and nobody has beaten them yet this year.
6.) Amherst: Consistent Elite 8 and Sweet 16 appearances.
7.) SLU: Every year their name is in the hat to make a serious run at it. They've been tripped up by Amherst the last couple years but that shouldn't take away from the fact that they are a very good program who play a great brand.
8.) Wheaton/Williams: Williams does have 3 Final 4's to their name so they should probably be higher but I'm more of a fan of the other teams ahead of them. Wheaton hasn't gotten to the Final 4 since 2006 but they're Wheaton and usually in the thick of things. Made an Elite 8 run in 2012.
9.) Calvin
Also....Who are are front runners for National Player of the Year?
1.) Jeremy Payne
2.) Travis Vegter
3.) Colton Bloecher
4.) Stephen Golz
5.) Sam Justice
Just to name a few...who else ya got?
If prior years are any indication I think Golz and Bloecher are neck-and-neck right now, and if either Wheaton or OWU lifts the title I'd venture to guess that player would get it.
Agree - will go to a player in the final 4 and Golz and Bloecher are solid candidates. If Messiah had moved on I would put Brian Ramirez into that conversation.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 08:46:26 AM
In the last 5 years...
1.) Messiah: No argument here. Very clear cut.
2.) OWU: 2 Final 4's, a Championship, an Elite 8 run.
3.) Loras: 2 Final 4's and numerous Sweet 16 appearances.
4.) Trinity: 3 or 4 Elite 8 losses for these guys. They play a great brand, just need to get back to the Final 4!
5.) Oneonta St: "New Kids on the block" featuring in their 2nd Final 4 in 4 years. Have proven over the last 4 years they can play with anyone and nobody has beaten them yet this year.
6.) Amherst: Consistent Elite 8 and Sweet 16 appearances.
7.) SLU: Every year their name is in the hat to make a serious run at it. They've been tripped up by Amherst the last couple years but that shouldn't take away from the fact that they are a very good program who play a great brand.
8.) Wheaton/Williams: Williams does have 3 Final 4's to their name so they should probably be higher but I'm more of a fan of the other teams ahead of them. Wheaton hasn't gotten to the Final 4 since 2006 but they're Wheaton and usually in the thick of things. Made an Elite 8 run in 2012.
9.) Calvin
Loras has had 4 Sweet 16 in the past 5 years and 2 Final 4's. Go back to 2007 and they have made the Sweet 16 every year except 2011 and 4 Final 4's.
Good points Kickin. And I will say this about Loras: they WILL eventually win a title with Rothert as coach - its not if but when for them. They are a tough minded team and you will have to beat them to move on - they don't beat themselves and they will not quit. It might have happened last year if not for one of the cruelest endings to a game I've ever seen. The energy level of the team went way up once they brought the starters back in against an exhausted Camden late in the 2nd half. Even down 0-1 with 15 to play you could see Loras believed they were going to win that game. Sure enough, they promptly put 2 in the back of the net to go up 2-1. I think they need to find another player of the caliber of Cavers so that they have the ball possession element to their game - he was the guy that made them so dangerous. If they keep pulling talent out of the Chicago area, that will happen sooner than later.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 25, 2014, 02:21:02 PM
Good points Kickin. And I will say this about Loras: they WILL eventually win a title with Rothert as coach - its not if but when for them. They are a tough minded team and you will have to beat them to move on - they don't beat themselves and they will not quit. It might have happened last year if not for one of the cruelest endings to a game I've ever seen. The energy level of the team went way up once they brought the starters back in against an exhausted Camden late in the 2nd half. Even down 0-1 with 15 to play you could see Loras believed they were going to win that game. Sure enough, they promptly put 2 in the back of the net to go up 2-1. I think they need to find another player of the caliber of Cavers so that they have the ball possession element to their game - he was the guy that made them so dangerous. If they keep pulling talent out of the Chicago area, that will happen sooner than later.
Thanks for the kind words KnightFalcon. Cavers was a huge loss, his field vision and distribution was fun to watch. Hopefully with the 2 strikers returning from injury next season (Rummelhart & Bradley) and Spencer Moore coming in to his sophomore season things will align. Need to find a replacement for Pizzello and Fluegel, but I know the bench is deep and their are some serious studs in the recruiting stable.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 10:28:50 AM
Also....Who are are front runners for National Player of the Year?
1.) Jeremy Payne
2.) Travis Vegter
3.) Colton Bloecher
4.) Stephen Golz
5.) Sam Justice
Just to name a few...who else ya got?
Midwest, are all of these forwards? Usually, this award will go to a high scorer... What about defenders or goaltenders, or midfielders who really control a game's tempo but don't show up in statistics with the top leaders? What about players that come from the toughest conferences whose stats aren't as good. I understand why the scorers get listed because its easy to quantify. Thoughts???
Yep they are all forwards except Sam Justice, a centerback. I did that based on who the most recent recipients have been. 2010 when Geoff Pezon won it was the last time a non-forward won it but he put up stats like he was a forward.
I never think a goalie should get the National Player of the Year award...that may be just me but I'm pretty adamant about that.
If you go by midfielders I think Jack Thompson and Brian Ramirez are both very worthy candidates but I don't know how likely they are to be selected.
I just threw those names out there to get the conversation started, didn't have any ranking behind them or anything.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 04:15:19 PM
Yep they are all forwards except Sam Justice, a centerback. I did that based on who the most recent recipients have been. 2010 when Geoff Pezon won it was the last time a non-forward won it but he put up stats like he was a forward.
I never think a goalie should get the National Player of the Year award...that may be just me but I'm pretty adamant about that.
If you go by midfielders I think Jack Thompson and Brian Ramirez are both very worthy candidates but I don't know how likely they are to be selected.
I just threw those names out there to get the conversation started, didn't have any ranking behind them or anything.
I can appreciate it and can see why the highest scorers are often listed. It's easy to quantify that way....
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 24, 2014, 10:40:49 PM
Sounds like Tufts is a similar team to Kenyon in terms of style of play and physicality so their 3 match ups with Kenyon this year will have prepared them well for Tufts.
Midwest, I was thinking about this today. I think what may be even more important is that Tufts' game with Messiah will have them prepared for OWU...not just in terms of the massive shot of confidence, but also because OWU is a less imposing version of Messiah. Of course less imposing shouldn't necessarily be construed as less dangerous, as in some ways OWU can catch you off guard because you look out there and except for two tall CBs and a physically strong holding mid you are tempted to underestimate them. Even Bloecher is not a particularly big kid although he is physically athletic and just a knack for big plays. Style-wise they are the closest to Messiah that I have seen with excellent combination passing and creation of great looks at close range in tight spaces.
NCAC that's a great point. OWU is exceptional at combination passing and that will be critical for them to break through the Tufts D. Messiah was most effective when they strung 3 or 4 quick one touches together before Tufts could close them ...they just were never able to get the last touch to go in the net. But when Payne tried to receive and do a quick turn there was always a second defender in the way.
Tufts will be able to "turn the corner" on the OWU defenders I think. Calvin did it pretty consistently but just finished poorly.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 08:46:26 AM
In the last 5 years...
1.) Messiah: No argument here. Very clear cut.
2.) OWU: 2 Final 4's, a Championship, an Elite 8 run.
3.) Loras: 2 Final 4's and numerous Sweet 16 appearances.
4.) Trinity: 3 or 4 Elite 8 losses for these guys. They play a great brand, just need to get back to the Final 4!
5.) Oneonta St: "New Kids on the block" featuring in their 2nd Final 4 in 4 years. Have proven over the last 4 years they can play with anyone and nobody has beaten them yet this year.
6.) Amherst: Consistent Elite 8 and Sweet 16 appearances.
7.) SLU: Every year their name is in the hat to make a serious run at it. They've been tripped up by Amherst the last couple years but that shouldn't take away from the fact that they are a very good program who play a great brand.
8.) Wheaton/Williams: Williams does have 3 Final 4's to their name so they should probably be higher but I'm more of a fan of the other teams ahead of them. Wheaton hasn't gotten to the Final 4 since 2006 but they're Wheaton and usually in the thick of things. Made an Elite 8 run in 2012.
9.) Calvin
You have Amherst ahead of SLU and SLU ahead of Williams. You claim to have based this on style? You would never pick Amherst ahead of these schools for style. If it is substance Williams has beaten Amherst the last 2 years to get into their 3rd Final 4 in 5 years. SLU has not beaten a Nescac since 2002 and Williams just beat them in 2012. Oneonta has been to 2 Final 4's in 5 years and will get quickly bounced this year. So Trinity's brand gets them a #4 ranking? They have not been to one Final 4 since 2007.....How many times do you watch D3 soccer out of your confort zone of the Midwest? Without that NCAA win OWU is not even on this list Please do your homework before trying a list like this without getting your facts or parameters set
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 25, 2014, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 24, 2014, 10:40:49 PM
Sounds like Tufts is a similar team to Kenyon in terms of style of play and physicality so their 3 match ups with Kenyon this year will have prepared them well for Tufts.
Midwest, I was thinking about this today. I think what may be even more important is that Tufts' game with Messiah will have them prepared for OWU...not just in terms of the massive shot of confidence, but also because OWU is a less imposing version of Messiah. Of course less imposing shouldn't necessarily be construed as less dangerous, as in some ways OWU can catch you off guard because you look out there and except for two tall CBs and a physically strong holding mid you are tempted to underestimate them. Even Bloecher is not a particularly big kid although he is physically athletic and just a knack for big plays. Style-wise they are the closest to Messiah that I have seen with excellent combination passing and creation of great looks at close range in tight spaces.
OWU against CNU was whackin it for a good chunk of the game. I saw individual skill but CNU were knockin it around the field compared to OWU. OWU might shock Tufts with their athleticism
It is becoming clearer that the first four in this year off the bubble were Coast Guard, Dickinson, North Park, Salisbury and a 5th UT Dallas.
Thanks for coming into all the threads and setting us all straight, Mr.Right.
You'll "give me" 2011? You mean when they won the title, the only non-Messiah school to do so in how many years? The year the current seniors were frosh on that team? And now two Final Fours in four years. And they spent almost all of 2013 undefeated and ranked #1 in the country. And they've been a NCAA tournament team for how many years in a row? You're gonna give Tufts the advantage on playing big games?
Look, I'm leaning towards Tufts in this game, but to suggest OWU hasn't played any big games is pretty ludicrous. Do you think Tufts' SOS, as a predictive factor, trumps all of the OWU experience and tradition? Is the SOS the reason you think Tufts may win? BTW, during that span, OWU has played Messiah, CNU, Ohio Northern every year including the ONU runner-up year, Calvin 4 times, Hope, DePauw's NCAA teams, Kenyon a bunch of times but I'm sure those don't count, and I bet I'm missing a few.
I think Tufts' attacking players are going to cause problems and Tufts has good size in the back that may trouble OWU. But OWU also can get under your skin, and we have to see how Tufts will handle adversity (if that happens). If Tufts doesn't score in 1st minute against Messiah, do we really think they would have won? And, fun fact, OWU has been awarded a PK three games in a row. Should be a good game between two teams that try to play good soccer.
I never suggested Tufts played more "competitive" games whatever that means but do you really think OWU wins in 2011 if Messiah did not get knocked out? When was the last time OWU beat Messiah...right never...Tufts just beat them so that might trump all your "competitive games"
Mr.Right, did you notice that OWU is #1 all time in NCAA appearances? They are easily #2, and certainly no lower than #3 all time.
And would you be willing to admit that Williams' last two Final Four entries were the weakest Final Four teams in the last 5 years? How many losses did they have each of those seasons? You ought to get out more.
NO Williams was not...Last year they were but not 2012....Somehow they managed to get there...Didnt sniff that academic powerhouse Kenyon there
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
I never suggested Tufts played more "competitive" games whatever that means but do you really think OWU wins in 2011 if Messiah did not get knocked out? When was the last time OWU beat Messiah...right never...Tufts just beat them so that might trump all your "competitive games"
You are the one who challenged the idea that they have ever played in any big games. And I rattled off 15+ just off the top of my head.
I did not suggest they do not play any competitive games but the actual implementation that some games are more competitive than others I would surmise that Nescac games are more competitive than NCAC games. This argument is boring but I will continue to fly in and correct you when necessary
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:28:12 PM
I did not suggest they do not play any competitive games but the actual implementation that some games are more competitive than others I would surmise that Nescac games are more competitive than NCAC games. This argument is boring but I will continue to fly in and correct you when necessary
Did you post this -- "What huge games? The last 2 years they have been knocked out in the 1st round. Ill give you 2011 but that was 3 years ago" -- or do I have the wrong person? Did you post that OWU wouldn't even be on the list without 2011?
Try posting without the vengeance and rage.
I will post the way I post.Do not tell me what or how to post. I do not get offended by your lack of knowledge about the games you are watching
We were having a good conversation and you trolled in and told everyone how dumb and wrong they are. You came in and insulted everyone and now you're bored. That's rich.
So, back to the discussion, are you maintaining that Tufts comes into the OWU game with more experience than OWU?
I never said you or they were dumb or wrong just stating my OPINION which is my RIGHT.
That did not seem like a great conversation in fact it is very hard to have great conversations on here because most users besides a few of us stop in here every day
Honestly the game between OWU and Tufts is just that a game. Their past history means absolutely nothing. What matters is which team is more motivated on the day, which team breaks down the others weaknesses better and which team has the better luck. A game in 2011 means 0 for this upcoming game.
A person asked a few posts back about a team's schedule during this time....It would most likely look like this:
Monday and Tuesday practice as normal
Wednesday thru Friday OFF
Saturday thru Tuesday practice as normal
Wednesday morning leave for KC
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
I never said you or they were dumb or wrong just stating my OPINION which is my RIGHT.
I don't think there are any burning civil rights issues here. Have I ever asked you not to post? As you may recall, I was one of your supporters. And you did traipse in and start rolling our the insults, begging Midwest not to post any lists without doing his "homework," suggesting I have no knowledge of games I'm watching, etc....and then it all bores you but you somehow are interested enough to go ahead and jump right in.
Enjoy the rest of the tournament, Mr.Right.
I will
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:51:50 PM
Honestly the game between OWU and Tufts is just that a game. Their past history means absolutely nothing. What matters is which team is more motivated on the day, which team breaks down the others weaknesses better and which team has the better luck. A game in 2011 means 0 for this upcoming game.
Nobody said it did. A poster raised whether Tufts' SOS was an important factor to their advantage. Another poster suggested OWU would benefit against Tufts from having played Kenyon. I suggested that Tufts would benefit from having played Messiah. Separate from all that a poster offered a list of top programs over the past 5 years. You appeared to jumble all those together and then suggested OWU hadn't played any big games and maybe even didn't belong on the list especially if you take out 2011 (which is silly because you say the thing for several other teams if you deleted one of their best years). But getting this all straight will likely be too tedious for you.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 08:46:26 AM
In the last 5 years...
1.) Messiah: No argument here. Very clear cut.
2.) OWU: 2 Final 4's, a Championship, an Elite 8 run.
3.) Loras: 2 Final 4's and numerous Sweet 16 appearances.
4.) Trinity: 3 or 4 Elite 8 losses for these guys. They play a great brand, just need to get back to the Final 4!
5.) Oneonta St: "New Kids on the block" featuring in their 2nd Final 4 in 4 years. Have proven over the last 4 years they can play with anyone and nobody has beaten them yet this year.
6.) Amherst: Consistent Elite 8 and Sweet 16 appearances.
7.) SLU: Every year their name is in the hat to make a serious run at it. They've been tripped up by Amherst the last couple years but that shouldn't take away from the fact that they are a very good program who play a great brand.
8.) Wheaton/Williams: Williams does have 3 Final 4's to their name so they should probably be higher but I'm more of a fan of the other teams ahead of them. Wheaton hasn't gotten to the Final 4 since 2006 but they're Wheaton and usually in the thick of things. Made an Elite 8 run in 2012.
9.) Calvin
You have Amherst ahead of SLU and SLU ahead of Williams. You claim to have based this on style? You would never pick Amherst ahead of these schools for style. If it is substance Williams has beaten Amherst the last 2 years to get into their 3rd Final 4 in 5 years. SLU has not beaten a Nescac since 2002 and Williams just beat them in 2012. Oneonta has been to 2 Final 4's in 5 years and will get quickly bounced this year. So Trinity's brand gets them a #4 ranking? They have not been to one Final 4 since 2007.....How many times do you watch D3 soccer out of your confort zone of the Midwest? Without that NCAA win OWU is not even on this list Please do your homework before trying a list like this without getting your facts or parameters set
I would also put MSU in the 8th slot along with Wheaton/Williams They have made deep runs in the NCAAs, but have only won the conference once in the last 5 years...
I step away for a few hours and wow! Mr. Right, I stated my OPINION as well, "which is my RIGHT!"
I base those rankings off who I think the best teams are. SLU is better than Amherst in my opinion. Did Amherst just tie them and advance in PK's? Yes they did, but I still think SLU is better...that's my OPINION, which is my RIGHT! I also look past simply how they do in the tournament. Messiah lost to Neumann in the 2nd round in 2011, yet they beat the national champions at their place 2-1. They had a great year, and a 2nd round loss doesn't change that. Just because Trinity hasn't been to a final 4 since 2007 doesn't mean they don't belong, but that's my OPINION, which is my RIGHT!
It's comical that you say if you take away a national championship season that OWU wouldn't be on that list. They also went to the Elite 8 the year before that so not like it was an out of the blue run. Sweet 16 in 08, 2nd round 09, Elite 8 '10, Champions '11...Not a bad 4 year stretch. Add a 1st round exit in 2012 and you take them off the list completely? Seems a bit harsh. But that's just my OPINION, which is my RIGHT!
Midwest, standing up to the little bully will earn you a karma point every time. And you probably didn't go to Williams either, so who the heck are you?
I just want to jump into the national discussion now that the Jumbos made it to the final four. I'm not much of an xx and oo's guy but I do know when I see a team that has all the parts necessary to put together a run to the end. The Jumbos were undefeated in conference play had the unfortunate first round loss to Conn College but came together in the tournament.
Messiah was, in my first hand opinion, probably the most technically sound team I have ever seen and the Jumbos neutralized their strengths. Lucky early goal or not, the Jumbos won that game on athleticism and heart.
Quote from: NEPitch62 on November 25, 2014, 10:36:45 PM
I just want to jump into the national discussion now that the Jumbos made it to the final four. I'm not much of an xx and oo's guy but I do know when I see a team that has all the parts necessary to put together a run to the end. The Jumbos were undefeated in conference play had the unfortunate first round loss to Conn College but came together in the tournament.
Messiah was, in my first hand opinion, probably the most technically sound team I have ever seen and the Jumbos neutralized their strengths. Lucky early goal or not, the Jumbos won that game on athleticism and heart.
That was not a lucky goal....it was early... a blast from 25 yards out into the upper 90! A thing of beauty.....I assume your reference to luck is because of how early it happened...I agree with your take on the game...
Agreed Nutmeg not a lucky goal...
Here is a more reasonable list- not one where "I like teams better than others so I will rank them higher" or "I have never seen these teams play so I will rank them anyway" or "This team does not win in November but I enjoy the way I have heard they play"
2009-present
1. Messiah
2. Loras
3. OWU
4. Williams
5. RUC
6. Oneonta
7. Amherst
8. Trinity TX
Actually, every one of those teams wins in November, it's the ones who win in December that are hard to find. By your list, since 2009, only 3 of those teams have won in December (and Williams has had the most opportunities aside from Messiah).
Also, Calvin goes to the national title game in '09, then elite 8 in '10, then national title game again in '11 and they don't make your list?
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 04:15:19 PM
Yep they are all forwards except Sam Justice, a centerback. I did that based on who the most recent recipients have been. 2010 when Geoff Pezon won it was the last time a non-forward won it but he put up stats like he was a forward.
I never think a goalie should get the National Player of the Year award...that may be just me but I'm pretty adamant about that.
If you go by midfielders I think Jack Thompson and Brian Ramirez are both very worthy candidates but I don't know how likely they are to be selected.
I just threw those names out there to get the conversation started, didn't have any ranking behind them or anything.
Returning to the POY conversation . . . To be a candidate for POY, you have to be 1st Team All-American, and the All-American teams are formed from the 1st Team All-Region. As I understand it, there is only one nomination period and one voting period from which both All-Regional and All-American teams formed. No idea how it all works. The nomination period this year was 11/3 - 11/13 (before the NCAA tournament) and the voting was 11/19 - 11/24 which means performance through the NCAA quarterfinals can be taken into account in voting if the player had been nominated. Not sure when the POY voting takes place (and that's a vote within the NSCAA All-American committee only, not the full membership), but even if it is after the Final Four, a good Final Four performance could only help if you already made 1st Team All-American.
As to the chance of a Messiah player being named POY. Highly doubtful. Depending on the when the voting takes place, not making the Final Four could hurt them, but I also think the vote-splitting effect when you have multiple plausible candidates (Payne, Jack Thompson, and Brian Ramirez) is going against them. And there are certainly other worthy candidates out there, many having already been mentioned. Trying to figure out NSCAA selections is tricky. The process has its share of politics, committee members showing preference for their players and their regions players, and previous recognition is huge. So, I'll just wait and see. The one comment I will make is that if Jack Thompson graduates without a single 1st Team AA nod, that's incredible. Similarly for Brian Ramirez. But there are 400+ teams, and 8000+ players, so percentage-wise, there's little difference between being named to the 1st or 3rd team. Either way you are recognized as being one of the top 0.5% of players.
Quote from: Nutmeg on November 25, 2014, 11:41:42 PM
Quote from: NEPitch62 on November 25, 2014, 10:36:45 PM
I just want to jump into the national discussion now that the Jumbos made it to the final four. I'm not much of an xx and oo's guy but I do know when I see a team that has all the parts necessary to put together a run to the end. The Jumbos were undefeated in conference play had the unfortunate first round loss to Conn College but came together in the tournament.
Messiah was, in my first hand opinion, probably the most technically sound team I have ever seen and the Jumbos neutralized their strengths. Lucky early goal or not, the Jumbos won that game on athleticism and heart.
That was not a lucky goal....it was early... a blast from 25 yards out into the upper 90! A thing of beauty.....I assume your reference to luck is because of how early it happened...I agree with your take on the game...
Agree - not a lucky goal. I think the Messiah coach put it best ... "a moment of quality".
Also agree - the Kayne goal was a thing of beauty and we had the good fortune of scoring very early and getting on the board first.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 26, 2014, 12:02:51 AM
Here is a more reasonable list- not one where "I like teams better than others so I will rank them higher" or "I have never seen these teams play so I will rank them anyway" or "This team does not win in November but I enjoy the way I have heard they play"
2009-present
1. Messiah
2. Loras
3. OWU
4. Williams
5. RUC
6. Oneonta
7. Amherst
8. Trinity TX
Very interesting list... in 2009 Rutgers-Camden played one of the more bizarre out of conference schedules:
Calvin 18-5-3
CMU 16-3-1
Noke 12-6-4
York 17-1-5
SIT 15-3-2
MSU 17-2-2
Would would be your last two in and first two out in a top 10 list; York, Calvin, SIT, SLU, Ohio Northern, Wheaton, MSU?
9) Calvin (could be higher)
10) York
-------------
11) Ohio Northern/MSU
13) SLU/Wheaton/SIT
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 26, 2014, 08:34:40 AM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 04:15:19 PM
Yep they are all forwards except Sam Justice, a centerback. I did that based on who the most recent recipients have been. 2010 when Geoff Pezon won it was the last time a non-forward won it but he put up stats like he was a forward.
I never think a goalie should get the National Player of the Year award...that may be just me but I'm pretty adamant about that.
If you go by midfielders I think Jack Thompson and Brian Ramirez are both very worthy candidates but I don't know how likely they are to be selected.
I just threw those names out there to get the conversation started, didn't have any ranking behind them or anything.
Returning to the POY conversation . . . To be a candidate for POY, you have to be 1st Team All-American, and the All-American teams are formed from the 1st Team All-Region. As I understand it, there is only one nomination period and one voting period from which both All-Regional and All-American teams formed. No idea how it all works. The nomination period this year was 11/3 - 11/13 (before the NCAA tournament) and the voting was 11/19 - 11/24 which means performance through the NCAA quarterfinals can be taken into account in voting if the player had been nominated. Not sure when the POY voting takes place (and that's a vote within the NSCAA All-American committee only, not the full membership), but even if it is after the Final Four, a good Final Four performance could only help if you already made 1st Team All-American.
As to the chance of a Messiah player being named POY. Highly doubtful. Depending on the when the voting takes place, not making the Final Four could hurt them, but I also think the vote-splitting effect when you have multiple plausible candidates (Payne, Jack Thompson, and Brian Ramirez) is going against them. And there are certainly other worthy candidates out there, many having already been mentioned. Trying to figure out NSCAA selections is tricky. The process has its share of politics, committee members showing preference for their players and their regions players, and previous recognition is huge. So, I'll just wait and see. The one comment I will make is that if Jack Thompson graduates without a single 1st Team AA nod, that's incredible. Similarly for Brian Ramirez. But there are 400+ teams, and 8000+ players, so percentage-wise, there's little difference between being named to the 1st or 3rd team. Either way you are recognized as being one of the top 0.5% of players.
All signs are pointing to Golz as POY. Bloecher would be my 2nd choice if they were to make the title game.
Quote from: NEPitch62 on November 26, 2014, 09:35:28 AM
Also agree - the Kayne goal was a thing of beauty and we had the good fortune of scoring very early and getting on the board first.
That's what I thought you meant...that the timing of the goal was beneficial not the type of goal......
I would go with a "moment of good fortune" (a first minute clearance that lands at his feet) that led to a "moment of quality" (taking advantage and finishing with skill).
Last Guy I just realized I did overlook Calvin and they should be #5 ahead OF RUC,Amherst,Trinity..etc
I like your last 2 in as York and Calvin should be in there.
Last 2 out would be MSU and Ohio Northern
I believe Stevens peaked in 2008 but they are right there
Is the goal on video somewhere? I would like to see it.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 26, 2014, 08:34:40 AM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 25, 2014, 04:15:19 PM
Yep they are all forwards except Sam Justice, a centerback. I did that based on who the most recent recipients have been. 2010 when Geoff Pezon won it was the last time a non-forward won it but he put up stats like he was a forward.
I never think a goalie should get the National Player of the Year award...that may be just me but I'm pretty adamant about that.
If you go by midfielders I think Jack Thompson and Brian Ramirez are both very worthy candidates but I don't know how likely they are to be selected.
I just threw those names out there to get the conversation started, didn't have any ranking behind them or anything.
Returning to the POY conversation . . . To be a candidate for POY, you have to be 1st Team All-American, and the All-American teams are formed from the 1st Team All-Region. As I understand it, there is only one nomination period and one voting period from which both All-Regional and All-American teams formed. No idea how it all works. The nomination period this year was 11/3 - 11/13 (before the NCAA tournament) and the voting was 11/19 - 11/24 which means performance through the NCAA quarterfinals can be taken into account in voting if the player had been nominated. Not sure when the POY voting takes place (and that's a vote within the NSCAA All-American committee only, not the full membership), but even if it is after the Final Four, a good Final Four performance could only help if you already made 1st Team All-American.
As to the chance of a Messiah player being named POY. Highly doubtful. Depending on the when the voting takes place, not making the Final Four could hurt them, but I also think the vote-splitting effect when you have multiple plausible candidates (Payne, Jack Thompson, and Brian Ramirez) is going against them. And there are certainly other worthy candidates out there, many having already been mentioned. Trying to figure out NSCAA selections is tricky. The process has its share of politics, committee members showing preference for their players and their regions players, and previous recognition is huge. So, I'll just wait and see. The one comment I will make is that if Jack Thompson graduates without a single 1st Team AA nod, that's incredible. Similarly for Brian Ramirez. But there are 400+ teams, and 8000+ players, so percentage-wise, there's little difference between being named to the 1st or 3rd team. Either way you are recognized as being one of the top 0.5% of players.
It's been a few years since I have part of the voting procedure so I don't remember it exactly perfect. Was an assistant. I was a head juco coach though so was more involved in that. Think it was voting for the players you played against that year. Would have to note on top of that being the Nscaa stuff the school would have to be a member. I'm also remembering that if you were to play a non d3 school it can hurt your chances- they can't vote for you, or you for them but the total games are still the same.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 26, 2014, 12:11:38 PM
Is the goal on video somewhere? I would like to see it.
I'm sure Messiah has it, but they're not going to be posting an opponent's goal to their YouTube channel! Didn't take note if anyone from Tufts was there to video tape the game, but given the goal hasn't surfaced on their website or elsewhere, I'll assume they didn't have anyone on-site video taping. That leaves Muhlenberg, and not sure they even recorded the games as they streamed the video, and even if they did, they have no incentive put the time and effort in to make a clip of the goal and post it. It might just be a goal that will only live on in the memories of those who were there to see it--like all goals back in the day!
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 26, 2014, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 26, 2014, 12:11:38 PM
Is the goal on video somewhere? I would like to see it.
I'm sure Messiah has it, but they're not going to be posting an opponent's goal to their YouTube channel! Didn't take note if anyone from Tufts was there to video tape the game, but given the goal hasn't surfaced on their website or elsewhere, I'll assume they didn't have anyone on-site video taping. That leaves Muhlenberg, and not sure they even recorded the games as they streamed the video, and even if they did, they have no incentive put the time and effort in to make a clip of the goal and post it. It might just be a goal that will only live on in the memories of those who were there to see it--like all goals back in the day!
I would like to see the "Giant Slayer" goal too. I saw it live on video but it was such a quick blast that it's fading in memory. Can one purchase the game video from the NCAA once the tournament is over, and then post it?
Doesn't most every team video anyways? Especially in the NCAA tournament. With the roster game max of 22 most teams at this level have to "cut" a few players for the games. They still bring them. We always had every game taped for im guessing the last ten years as a program. Be a nice goal to see!
Happy Thanksgiving to all you knuckleheads.... :o
Quote from: convict on November 27, 2014, 09:34:27 AM
Doesn't most every team video anyways? Especially in the NCAA tournament. With the roster game max of 22 most teams at this level have to "cut" a few players for the games. They still bring them. We always had every game taped for im guessing the last ten years as a program. Be a nice goal to see!
I just saw some game video - from the fans side of the field so opposite of what the Muhlenberg video feed was showing. If you recall, the sequence started from a free-kick from about 25-30 yards out to the left (looking in) of the left post. That kick was actually pretty sharp - driven hard and dropped right on the far corner of the 6 yard box and that is where most of the players converged. Messiah got a good clear (header it looked like), but the goalie went over there to get it and went down on his knees. So after the clear, he had to scramble back up and back to the middle of the goal. The clear went out to the 18 where it bounced twice and set up perfectly for Kayne to step into and time a perfect half-volley with no one around him. Credit to him for staying focused and executing because it was a "lollipop" that he could have easily blasted over the top. Goalie was off the goal line at the 6 and got a hand on it before it dipped just under the crossbar and above the Messiah defender standing on the goal line. Actually well-executed by both sides but that "moment of quality" by Kayne was the difference.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 27, 2014, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: convict on November 27, 2014, 09:34:27 AM
Doesn't most every team video anyways? Especially in the NCAA tournament. With the roster game max of 22 most teams at this level have to "cut" a few players for the games. They still bring them. We always had every game taped for im guessing the last ten years as a program. Be a nice goal to see!
I just saw some game video - from the fans side of the field so opposite of what the Muhlenberg video feed was showing. If you recall, the sequence started from a free-kick from about 25-30 yards out to the left (looking in) of the left post. That kick was actually pretty sharp - driven hard and dropped right on the far corner of the 6 yard box and that is where most of the players converged. Messiah got a good clear (header it looked like), but the goalie went over there to get it and went down on his knees. So after the clear, he had to scramble back up and back to the middle of the goal. The clear went out to the 18 where it bounced twice and set up perfectly for Kayne to step into and time a perfect half-volley with no one around him. Credit to him for staying focused and executing because it was a "lollipop" that he could have easily blasted over the top. Goalie was off the goal line at the 6 and got a hand on it before it dipped just under the crossbar and above the Messiah defender standing on the goal line. Actually well-executed by both sides but that "moment of quality" by Kayne was the difference.
Yes, that's what I saw on the live feed. It was a side volley from about 5 yards out of the box. The goalie got a couple of fingers on it but it was heading for the upper 90 anyway....the goal we should call the "Giant Slayer".....KF, is there anyway you can post the footage somewhere? As I said before, it happened so fast I would like to see it again....
Sounds like a similar goal we should've had a few years back in the beginning of the tournament, 1st round. It got by the goalkeeper but a defender happened to go back to the goal line and head it out. Just sort of knew at that point it wasn't our day and lost 2-0 at that point. Why finishing every chance afforded is so important when you have them or you head home.
"the goal we should call the "Giant Slayer"...pretty appropriate for that game and opponent!
Does the NCAA pick an all-tournament team?
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 28, 2014, 04:22:44 PM
Does the NCAA pick an all-tournament team?
They do - will be announced on the field immediately at the conclusion of the final next Saturday after the team and player trophies are distributed. That includes an offensive and a defensive MVP. But I believe it is limited to members of the final 4 teams.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 28, 2014, 04:43:33 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 28, 2014, 04:22:44 PM
Does the NCAA pick an all-tournament team?
They do - will be announced on the field immediately at the conclusion of the final next Saturday after the team and player trophies are distributed. That includes an offensive and a defensive MVP. But I believe it is limited to members of the final 4 teams.
Any thoughts so far?
Well, they split it fairly evenly across the 4 teams so each team should get 2-3. I'd say Kayne, Hoppenot and Halliday from Tufts from what I saw against Messiah - maybe one of their center backs too. Santos could have a big game or 2 in KC as well. Bloecher and Pang (I think he is their center back) have looked sharp from OWU. And from Wheaton, I'd say Golz, Hollingsworth, Blackmon and Borges are candidates. Noah Anthony too if he scores a goal or two in the final 4 - he's deadly on free kicks. Don't know Oneonta well enough this year to pick any names.
From the 2014-15 Host Operations Manual:QuoteAn All-Tournament Team will be selected by the games committee at the championship
finals site only. Eleven individuals will be selected by the men's or women's committee
based on the individual's performance during the semifinal and/or championship games
There are no position limitations on the all-tournament team. Of the 11 athletes on the all-
tournament team, one will be named the outstanding offensive player and another will be
named the outstanding defensive player of the championships.
That's the official policy on the All-Tournament team.
The average distribution is 2 players each from the semifinalists, 3 from the runner-up, and 4 from the champions, but it varies. Last year the Capital women only got one player honored, but I think that's a first under the current policies. They've actually honored 12 players at times. Last year Rutgers-Camden, as runner-up got four honorees pushing the team to 12 players. On the women's side last year, despite Capital only having one player honored, 12 players were honored as champion William Smith had five players honored and runner-up Trinity (Tx.) four.
As I've been told, the NCAA committee asks the four coaches to pick which of their players they want to have honored. Maybe the reason that the teams exceed 11 players some times is that the committee really wants to honor a player not selected by their coach, I don't know.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 28, 2014, 04:43:33 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on November 28, 2014, 04:22:44 PM
Does the NCAA pick an all-tournament team?
They do - will be announced on the field immediately at the conclusion of the final next Saturday after the team and player trophies are distributed. That includes an offensive and a defensive MVP. But I believe it is limited to members of the final 4 teams.
So, is it based on just on the weekend games or the whole tournament performance?
Quote from: Nutmeg on November 29, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
So, is it based on just on the weekend games or the whole tournament performance?
Well, if you look at the excerpt I included in the post above yours, it's to be based on just the semifinals and final. But if it's true that the coaches virtually decide their honorees, than who knows what all really gets factored in.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 29, 2014, 01:32:05 PM
Quote from: Nutmeg on November 29, 2014, 01:27:43 PM
So, is it based on just on the weekend games or the whole tournament performance?
Well, if you look at the except I included in the post above yours, it's to be based on just the semifinals and final. But if it's true that the coaches virtually decide their honorees, than who knows what all really gets factored in.
thanks, FW!
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 27, 2014, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: convict on November 27, 2014, 09:34:27 AM
Doesn't most every team video anyways? Especially in the NCAA tournament. With the roster game max of 22 most teams at this level have to "cut" a few players for the games. They still bring them. We always had every game taped for im guessing the last ten years as a program. Be a nice goal to see!
I just saw some game video - from the fans side of the field so opposite of what the Muhlenberg video feed was showing. If you recall, the sequence started from a free-kick from about 25-30 yards out to the left (looking in) of the left post. That kick was actually pretty sharp - driven hard and dropped right on the far corner of the 6 yard box and that is where most of the players converged. Messiah got a good clear (header it looked like), but the goalie went over there to get it and went down on his knees. So after the clear, he had to scramble back up and back to the middle of the goal. The clear went out to the 18 where it bounced twice and set up perfectly for Kayne to step into and time a perfect half-volley with no one around him. Credit to him for staying focused and executing because it was a "lollipop" that he could have easily blasted over the top. Goalie was off the goal line at the 6 and got a hand on it before it dipped just under the crossbar and above the Messiah defender standing on the goal line. Actually well-executed by both sides but that "moment of quality" by Kayne was the difference.
Knight Falcon- any idea where we could view the goal? I would love to see it!
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
I never suggested Tufts played more "competitive" games whatever that means but do you really think OWU wins in 2011 if Messiah did not get knocked out? When was the last time OWU beat Messiah...right never...Tufts just beat them so that might trump all your "competitive games"
but Messiah DID get knocked out - hence OWU was NATIONAL CHAMPION.
And OWU has beaten Messiah before (not in the last 5 years), but it has happened - and in the tourney for that matter.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on November 26, 2014, 08:20:50 AM
Also, Calvin goes to the national title game in '09, then elite 8 in '10, then national title game again in '11 and they don't make your list?
Hard to believe...
Quote from: wingtips2 on December 01, 2014, 01:32:17 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
I never suggested Tufts played more "competitive" games whatever that means but do you really think OWU wins in 2011 if Messiah did not get knocked out? When was the last time OWU beat Messiah...right never...Tufts just beat them so that might trump all your "competitive games"
but Messiah DID get knocked out - hence OWU was NATIONAL CHAMPION.
And OWU has beaten Messiah before (not in the last 5 years), but it has happened - and in the tourney for that matter.
The only way to settle that 2011 argument was if OWU and Messiah had played each other at some point that year...
2011 is settled.
OWU were the KINGS.
End of Story.
Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).
Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new King when he is crowned.
Good luck to the final 4 teams!
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 01, 2014, 03:06:20 PM
2011 is settled.
OWU were the KINGS.
End of Story.
Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).
Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new King when he is crowned.
Good luck to the final 4 teams!
Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on December 01, 2014, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 01, 2014, 03:06:20 PM
2011 is settled.
OWU were the KINGS.
End of Story.
Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).
Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new King when he is crowned.
Good luck to the final 4 teams!
Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.
The same argument could be used in reverse for last year. We don't question for a second Messiah being the King of 2013, even though OWU was undefeated all year and ranked #1 almost the entire year. We don't know for sure what happens if OWU doesn't have a fluke loss to Rose Hulman similar to Messiah's loss to Neumann.
Ofcoarse Boyz.
I think we are all on the same page.
This is why the big boyz disregard rankings.
My Scarlet and Brown were ranked #1 all of 2011 only to fall in sweet 16.
Unless you are the last team standing, it means nothing.
As I have said before though I think Messiah, then OWU/Wheaton are the class of D3 unless other teams take it away from them.
A D3 Champion is like no other.
You have played and beaten (technically) about 400 teams and bested them all.
Even more impressive when looking at the body of work the above 3 teams have produced.
Great programs
Great coaches
Great traditions.
That being said, we have about a dozen teams waiting to enter this conversation.
This is the beauty of D3 soccer.
Great chance for Tufts and Oneonta to take a step toward this end this weekend!!!
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 01, 2014, 07:24:37 PM
Quote from: KnightFalcon on December 01, 2014, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 01, 2014, 03:06:20 PM
2011 is settled.
OWU were the KINGS.
End of Story.
Messiah have the greatest history is D3 soccer (at the moment).
Now is 2014 and the King is dead, Long live the new King when he is crowned.
Good luck to the final 4 teams!
Sorry Saint of Old, that was intended to be a joke - no question OWU was the champ in 2011. Just trying to make light of the argument going back and forth that IF Messiah had still been in the tourney, would OWU still have been champs. We obviously would only know that if they had actually played each other in the 2011 semi ... Which they didn't ...although they DID play at OWU earlier in the year with Messiah winning. I think that was their only loss for what it's worth. But again, I agree OWU was the undisputed champ that year no question.
The same argument could be used in reverse for last year. We don't question for a second Messiah being the King of 2013, even though OWU was undefeated all year and ranked #1 almost the entire year. We don't know for sure what happens if OWU doesn't have a fluke loss to Rose Hulman similar to Messiah's loss to Neumann.
Do you think Camden would have been your champion if OWU made it to the final? Do you think OWU was #1 all year because of the history of the program? The first half was all Messiah, then a few adjustments were made by Camden and it made for a great game. Much like the Loras-Camden game... you knew the equalizer was coming (just a matter of when).
I've tried to freeze frame that Camden equalizer vs Loras, and still not sure if went completely over the line, but it does look really close. Total heartbreaking 3 min of soccer for the Duhawks. I think Loras could have beaten OWU, but not Messiah. Messiah wayyy to good on the ball and much more dangerous in wider areas. JT was the best player during that postseason run, IMO.
2014 is like 2013 all over again...
Undefeated upstart program vs a National Central/North power in the first game...
A National powerhouse vs a NESCAC school...
Surely we won't see a 4-0 thrashing in the 2nd game, but I do see OWU coming out on top in this one 2-1. The first game should be a delight... High pace and exciting 3-2 OT bound.
I'll go with the Jumbos in the second game 2-1 (as long as they come out hard and strong). The first game is a toss-up!
lastguy, I can't recall why OWU was #1 all year ahead of Messiah, Camden, Loras, etc. They were undefeated and had a huge senior class, and had they not been upset they most likely would have gotten Messiah on OWU's home field. I probably still would have slightly favored Messiah, but it would have been close.
As for reputation of programs impacting rankings, it seems to me that most of any bias goes in the direction of the East Coast teams. In the Sweet 16 this year the team that no one really had a clue about was Whitworth. The Pirates were very good and probably deserved a better result against CNU. Makes one wonder about Puget Sound and Willamette and what kind of favor the NWC might see if they were located on the East Coast.
I also thought Loras deserved the Camden game and were really, really unlucky. And as good as the Messiah-Camden final was I think Messiah-Loras would have been even better.
Messiah-Loras final last year would have been EPIC ... bigger/better than the semi-final the year before and that was an OT thriller. I think Loras was looking for that rematch all year last year which made the loss to Camden all the more difficult. Very interesting contrast in styles between those teams - aggressive, in-your-face style of Loras vs. Possession and attacking style of Messiah. I kind of expected the same from Camden given their rep and the rep of the NJAC(aggressive style of play), so it was very surprising to see them sit back and let Messiah possess so easily in the first half. I suspect it was because they wanted to shorten the game since they were not very deep and only played a couple of subs (not to mention OT the night before) v Messiah which pretty much turns over their entire lineup during a half.
When watching the D1 Final Four games last year (at home rather than PPL Park although it's a close drive, I wasn't sitting in freezing temps and shelling out cash when it was televised). Twellman made the comment about these teams not getting enough rest before the final (which is a joke). If only D3 had the luxury of a day of rest.
I know Camden traveled 17 hours on that Wednesday for some long layover...
From my discussions with their staff post game and even up until a few weeks ago when I re-asked the question when they were in the NJAC playoffs. Didn't get to watch any of the ECAC games...
The Camden coaching staff debated playing a 4.1.4.1 vs the Messiah 4.2.3.1 the whole night before after beating Loras only to realize their game plan was simple... (I know Oz well and I would have to think it was surely 10 white sugar packets vs 10 pink Sweet and Low packets that decided their fate deep into the late hours of the night on the Riverwalk). The staff and captains realized the day of the match in their AM meeting that their legs were worn thin from the high energy match the night before. As their depth wore thin over the season with injuries in their unbeaten 1st 25 games, they had a solution and game plan...(outside of keeping the bench tight and putting it in the hands of 13-15 people)...
Stay tight in a 4.2.3.1 as long as possible (10 yards above MFD line with their lone F) and keep the game even or go up a goal and make Messiah chase (I still haven't seen Tufts v Messiah because my feed was messed up, but I'd imagine that's exactly what Tufts did). Force JT central at all times and eliminate services from the flank (especially byline) and set piece. * RUC only felt Messiah would score on either situation or a mistake (both true). Set pieces of byline services really did them in this year with the roster being gutted from the GK to 3 defenders and a DCM.
Disrupt play and counter with pace if Messiah threw their #'s forward and catch the CB with Ryan in behind (Ryan missed a breakaway early as well) and keep the ball at times to keep Messiah honest in transition. If Messiah scored, they would go right into a 4.1.4.1 and chase the game (which Camden did). They remained in that shape until last 15 min or so when they threw parts of the kitchen sink at Messiah with a 3.1.4.2 (moved CB McGrory forward)- he scored the game tying goal (Camden moved McGrory forward the night before and he scored against Loras)
They went back to their blend of 4.2.3.1/4.1.4.1 based on where ball was after score went to 1-1 but Messiah's fitness coupled with exhaustion from Camden's chase of the match for 50+ min lead to the 2-1 OT win for Messiah. Messiah had much better chances in the 2OT then they did all game (part of that to could be Messiah has been in that situation and they were relentless late). Looked like Camden tried to win it in OT (which probably kept them wide open) because they thought they could win it and believed if it went to PK's, Messiah had been more clinical over the years. Randle could have maybe come up big as he just missed that deflected goal from being near the other post, and just missed Payne's smasher by a split second.
Sh SOG G A Min
--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------
0 Mike Randall........ - - - - 104 (91 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
2 Connor Hurff........ 2 1 - - 98 (72 vs Loras)
5 Taylor McGrory...... 1 1 1 - 104 (91 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
7 Mike Ryan........... 6 1 - - 104 (83 vs Loras)
9 Mitch Grotti........ 7 3 - - 104 (74 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
10 Stevan Austino...... - - - - 26 (52 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
11 Eric Cutry.......... - - - - 94 (91 vs Loras)
13 Joe Auleta.......... 1 - - - 104 (87 vs Loras)
15 Bobby Foster........ - - - - 104 (91 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
16 Matt Macey.......... - - - - 104 (91 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
25 Keegan Balle........ 1 1 - - 104 (87 vs Loras) Not on 2014 roster
---------- Substitutes ---------- ----------
6 Grant Taylor........ - - - - 72
20 Ryan Kelly.......... - - - - 8
22 Giuseppe DeLuca..... - - - - 3
Just looking at that roster it's no surprise they had as many blemishes in 2014... Playing that difficult schedule really did them in. Sure they could have had 2 or 3 more wins and had a SOS near that of Salisbury... but they didn't. Not sure of the recruits next year but a healthy Mike Ryan is probably the favorite to win POY in 2015.... As a senior, depending on the schedule... he might put up 25 goals next year.
Not sure how Loras would have handled Messiah. I will have to see if I can watch the 2012 Semifinal somewhere. I'd imagine high pressure and force Messiah into the middle as well. Run em down and force mistakes in Messiah's defensive third.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 02, 2014, 10:19:40 AM
2014 is like 2013 all over again...
Undefeated upstart program vs a National Central/North power in the first game...
A National powerhouse vs a NESCAC school...
Surely we won't see a 4-0 thrashing in the 2nd game, but I do see OWU coming out on top in this one 2-1. The first game should be a delight... High pace and exciting 3-2 OT bound.
Lastguy, are you suggesting that Oneonta is an upstart program? They've been around for 60 years, and were a D1 program until 2006 (and were in NCAA D1 tourney on multiple occasions). They were also in D3 Final Four in 2011. Given their tradition, one would expect them to be regular participants in the later rounds of D3 national tourneys.
Just mean upstart in terms of on the national scene as far as a powerhouse. I'm well aware of the quality of Oneonta St. I watched the elite 8 game vs Camden and their final 4 game vs Calvin.
Had they not lost to Oberlin, I think they would have gone to the elite 8 in 2013...
Comparing Oneonta St to Camden since 2006 they have been eerily similar:
Oneonta St. 125-37-20 (.742%)(4 NCAA Apps) Two final fours, three conference championships, one unbeaten regular season
Rutgers-Camden 125-43-17 (.722%)(4 NCAA Apps) One Final, one elite 8, three conference championships, one unbeaten regular season
Messiah doesn't play a 4-2-3-1
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 02, 2014, 09:59:07 PM
Messiah doesn't play a 4-2-3-1
What do they play... a 4 3 3 in your mind?
I was referring to 2013... wood up top with Payne in the hole. Jt and Kovach high and wide with myers and ramirez holding...
You can debate it any way really...
Messiah has played a 4-3-3 since the Brandt days...and they still do.
Yes. Thy have been in a strict 4-3-3 ever since I have been watching
Any formation is fluid and any numbered representation can only tell you so much. By itself, the 4-3-3 designation can't tell you how those three midfielders line-up and position themselves. I don't find the 4-2-3-1 to be inaccurate.
The bottom line is that they play with four across the back (expecting the outside backs to push forward a lot), a target forward and two wingers, and have alternated over the years between a triangle and inverted triangle of central midfielders (which is very fluid within games, of course, and more fluid in some years than others).
When they play with the midfield triangle that has two more deep lying or "holding" CM's and a single AM in the hole behind the target, I find the 4-2-3-1 to be fairly accurate description. In 2013 with Payne in the midfield but usually more advanced than Ramirez and Sheldon Meyer, the 4-2-3-1 description seems fairly refelctive of the positioning. This year with Payne at target, Danny Brandt took on the advanced midfield role with Ramirez and Benji Kennel in support, though too advanced and attack-minded to want to call them deep-lying. It's been a little while since there's been a clear "defensive" midfielder at the base of an inverted triangle like when (I hope old age isn't make me confuse names) Renko and Visser and others filled that role. These past few years have seen the midfield trio play as advanced as ever without a designated D-mid, but with Carter Robbins often pushing up from centerback becoming essentially another midfielder at times. And I think that's where the suggestion of a 3-4-3 comes from.
RH, great job with the Byrne interview. Impressive. Looking forward to the others.
Thanks. All four coaches gave really good interviews, and talking with them it's easy to see how the programs have been this successful.
Weather permitting (100% chance of rain for the semis), it should be a good weekend.
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on December 04, 2014, 01:53:47 PM
Thanks. All four coaches gave really good interviews, and talking with them it's easy to see how the programs have been this successful.
Weather permitting (100% chance of rain for the semis), it should be a good weekend.
100 percent? dang......
Wow. Again, I have to say the coach interviews are superb. I hope folks realize how much time and effort it takes to put those together. The interviews certainly reveal the level of knowledge and nuance that these coaches possess, and one definitely gets the feeling that they care about their players.
I find Guiliano to be particularly impressive, and it's hard not to be rooting for him and his team (although I love Byrne too). Guiliano seems to be truly devoted to his players and one can easily imagine any of them giving him a call in a time of need 15 years from now. Wheaton is losing a good man.
Tufts looks good but I have never seen OWU look this bad. Almost looks like they are throwing the game. First touch after first too strong and right to a Tufts player. Virtually no possession. A horrid performance so far. WIll be interesting to see what Martin can figure out at the half.
Give credit to Tufts for that - they are giving OWU no space
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
I haven't seen a team this over matched in a Final 4 game in quite some time. OWU backs lack the ability to distribute. Tufts vs. Wheaton should be a great game, both teams work hard and play some good ball.
Quote from: GarbageGoals33 on December 05, 2014, 04:37:20 PM
I haven't seen a team this over matched in a Final 4 game in quite some time. OWU backs lack the ability to distribute. Tufts vs. Wheaton should be a great game, both teams work hard and play some good ball.
I'll give you two others: Messiah 4-0 over Williams last year and 5-1 over Ohio Northern the year before that
As a Kenyon fan, and not even wanting OWU to win, I'm sick to my stomach. That was a complete embarrassment.
Congrats to Tufts. They played well but didn't really have to do anything spectacular, and Mr.Right is correct, they played kids who probably haven't played a minute in 15+ games. I have never seen anyone make OWU look that bad. Some of it had to be the Tufts pressure and greater athleticism across the board, but still, OWU's first touches even when they had space were bouncing 4-5 yards away from them.
I expect tomorrow to be a great game. Both teams are on a roll, and both teams at this point must believe it is meant to be.
But if we look honestly at the OWU run we could see this coming. They won 2 games on PKs and a third in OT on a fortunate shot from 30 yards out. Not a convincing stretch of 4 games leading up to this. Tufts is playing with as much confidence as any team I've seen in the last several years.
I hope the field holds up so it isn't an issue tomorrow
Finally, a good video feed...the Tufts Midfield controlled the game today. Yes, no all-Americans but they have outplayed many in the tournament. They have flown under the radar and have come up big. I remember posts from early in the year saying how nice they played....Good luck to the Jumbos tomorrow.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 05, 2014, 04:07:38 PM
Tufts looks good but I have never seen OWU look this bad. Almost looks like they are throwing the game. First touch after first too strong and right to a Tufts player. Virtually no possession. A horrid performance so far. WIll be interesting to see what Martin can figure out at the half.
"Throwing the game?" Come on. The Tufts midfield looked superb today....
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 05, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
These are two very good teams at what they do and they have advanced through the tournament, and deserve to be crowned tournament champions. But I'm not sure I would declare them the two very best soccer teams in the land.
Wheaton got the early game on Friday but had to go the distance with their starters. Honestly I thought Wheaton lost the game when they gave up the goal with 5 mins to go. I watched the live stream and saw the replay twice and still can't figure out why the goal was disallowed. And if you watch the reactions of the Wheaton players it looked like they thought it was a goal too. Anyone know the true story on that?
Tufts on the other hand, had an easier game. They got to rest their starters a bit. So that could work to their advantage tomorrow.
Hopefully it will be a good game. Field conditions could also be a factor.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 03, 2014, 09:59:02 AM
Any formation is fluid and any numbered representation can only tell you so much. By itself, the 4-3-3 designation can't tell you how those three midfielders line-up and position themselves. I don't find the 4-2-3-1 to be inaccurate.
The bottom line is that they play with four across the back (expecting the outside backs to push forward a lot), a target forward and two wingers, and have alternated over the years between a triangle and inverted triangle of central midfielders (which is very fluid within games, of course, and more fluid in some years than others).
When they play with the midfield triangle that has two more deep lying or "holding" CM's and a single AM in the hole behind the target, I find the 4-2-3-1 to be fairly accurate description. In 2013 with Payne in the midfield but usually more advanced than Ramirez and Sheldon Meyer, the 4-2-3-1 description seems fairly refelctive of the positioning. This year with Payne at target, Danny Brandt took on the advanced midfield role with Ramirez and Benji Kennel in support, though too advanced and attack-minded to want to call them deep-lying. It's been a little while since there's been a clear "defensive" midfielder at the base of an inverted triangle like when (I hope old age isn't make me confuse names) Renko and Visser and others filled that role. These past few years have seen the midfield trio play as advanced as ever without a designated D-mid, but with Carter Robbins often pushing up from centerback becoming essentially another midfielder at times. And I think that's where the suggestion of a 3-4-3 comes from.
I think you are missing one key element here. It's really about the play of the wingers. Messiah keeps those wingers extremely high, with limited and very specific defensive responsibility. That's what makes it a true 4-3-3. Wheaton tries to do that with their wingers, but they frequently can't hold that shape. Most teams don't have the desire or even the specific personnel to keep the wingers high so they tuck those wingers in a bit and recess them a bit and it starts to look like a 4-2-3-1 or even a 4-5-1.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:24:02 PM
Wheaton got the early game on Friday but had to go the distance with their starters. Honestly I thought Wheaton lost the game when they gave up the goal with 5 mins to go. I watched the live stream and saw the replay twice and still can't figure out why the goal was disallowed. And if you watch the reactions of the Wheaton players it looked like they thought it was a goal too. Anyone know the true story on that?
Tufts on the other hand, had an easier game. They got to rest their starters a bit. So that could work to their advantage tomorrow.
Hopefully it will be a good game. Field conditions could also be a factor.
The goal was disallowed because the keeper had "possession" of the ball. I didn't think so until the replay, but he clearly had both hands on the ball and the opposing player kicked it while in the keepers possession. At one time all the keeper needed was 1 hand to constitute possession, but not sure if that's still the law. That was a very good call by the official in my eyes, takes a keen eye and big balls to make that call.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 05, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
These are two very good teams at what they do and they have advanced through the tournament, and deserve to be crowned tournament champions. But I'm not sure I would declare them the two very best soccer teams in the land.
Tufts is playing very well and they beat Messiah which no one has done in quite some time. Messiah, imho is still up there as the best team, but whoever wins tomorrow has to be considered the best. Who do u think are the best?
Quote from: KICKIN95 on December 05, 2014, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:24:02 PM
Wheaton got the early game on Friday but had to go the distance with their starters. Honestly I thought Wheaton lost the game when they gave up the goal with 5 mins to go. I watched the live stream and saw the replay twice and still can't figure out why the goal was disallowed. And if you watch the reactions of the Wheaton players it looked like they thought it was a goal too. Anyone know the true story on that?
Tufts on the other hand, had an easier game. They got to rest their starters a bit. So that could work to their advantage tomorrow.
Hopefully it will be a good game. Field conditions could also be a factor.
The goal was disallowed because the keeper had "possession" of the ball. I didn't think so until the replay, but he clearly had both hands on the ball and the opposing player kicked it while in the keepers possession. At one time all the keeper needed was 1 hand to constitute possession, but not sure if that's still the law. That was a very good call by the official in my eyes, takes a keen eye and big balls to make that call.
I'm sure your explanation is what the official decided. But what I thought I saw was two hands behind the ball not two hands on the ball. Two very different things.
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 05, 2014, 11:59:27 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 05, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
These are two very good teams at what they do and they have advanced through the tournament, and deserve to be crowned tournament champions. But I'm not sure I would declare them the two very best soccer teams in the land.
Tufts is playing very well and they beat Messiah which no one has done in quite some time. Messiah, imho is still up there as the best team, but whoever wins tomorrow has to be considered the best. Who do u think are the best?
Is Rutgers-Camden one of the best teams in the country or did they just happen to make a single run at a single point in time? When Tufts and Wheaton start putting multiple recent stars on their crest then I think we can start talking about them as "best". Until then I have to go with Messiah's 10 recent stars on their crest.
Come 3:30 or 4pm Saturday, one team and set of fans isn't going to care about being the best or being perceived as being the best--they will be champions and history will always remember them as such. The whole point of the tournament is to win the whole thing.
Now if we want to discuss and evaluate who is "the best", while Tufts has certainly worked their way into that discussion, I don't think they are clear leaders for the "title" of "the best" even if they win the championship. That is, if you pitted them against all the other candidates in a series of ten games, would they come out on top against them all? It's not far-fetched for some to think they would. But it's also not far-fetched to think another team would fare better. I certainty wouldn't bet against Messiah across 10 games against anyone in the nation. And win or lose tomorrow, a case could be made for Wheaton. Oenonta picked up their lone loss at an unfortunate time with respect to winning the championship, but taking the season as a whole, they're a strong candidate for the title of "the best".
Tufts is a top team that clearly seems to have peaked in terms of both execution and effort at just the right time. And while that's not something you can completely program as a coaching staff and team, you still have to give them credit for rising to the occasion and consistently performing at a high level throughout the tournament. It's what all teams strive for coming in, but few accomplish.
While certainly understandable in the midst of the excitement over Tufts' phenomenal performances, some of the attempted extrapolations in that wake are pretty silly, and are reliant on only making extrapolations in one direction. Yes, Tufts beat Messiah and then completely dominated OWU from the opening whistle. That said, the Tufts blowout of OWU tells us almost nothing about where OWU would finish in the NESCAC, anymore than the Tufts' loss to Conn College told us anything about Tufts' chances to go on a remarkable run to the national final and very possibly a national championship. Tufts isn't playing for the NESCAC. Tufts is playing for Tufts. And right now Tufts is a very impressive team that at this point would probably be favored against every team in the country not named Messiah or Wheaton. And if they beat Wheaton today Tufts will be an extremely deserving champion, beating quality opponents from start to finish including the 3 most storied programs in D3 soccer history.
It's true that OWU didn't have as clean a road to the Final Four as the other squads, with two PK advancements and a narrow win in the very first game. But they didn't play cupcakes to get there. Calvin, Kenyon, and CNU are all very good teams who almost certainly would have performed better than OWU yesterday. On another day OWU would have performed better than they did yesterday. I would guess that was OWU's worst performance of the year. Yesterday's team would have struggled to beat Wooster or Wittenberg. Why that happened yesterday we'll never know. Tufts clearly had something to do with it and clearly was the superior team, but they are not "total domination" level better than OWU. I'm guessing that OWU maxed out physically and emotionally two weeks earlier, outperforming a bitter rival who had been challenging OWU's supremacy on the rival's home field and then outlasting a talented Newport side. Based on their performance yesterday, OWU looked like a team that had already won its championship and was showing up for some kind of post-season scrimmage.
It happens. You can't play one of your worst games at the wrong time. Kenyon played probably its worst half of soccer all year in the first half against OWU. Yes, OWU was really pumped up, came in believing they had some psychic edge (which unfortunately the opponent also believed), and on the day were the better team, but you can't extrapolate from that that Kenyon isn't as good as Penn State-Behrend.
As neutrals most of us probably hope both teams will play close to their best and then whoever wins, wins. That's how I saw the first game. Oneonta played to the level of its quality, consistent with its phenomenal record and season, and while I thought Wheaton had the better of the play on balance, Oneonta very easily could have won that game (and there were a couple of questionable calls on both sides that could have changed the outcome. [The disallowed goal for Oneonta is the glaring one given the outcome, but Wheaton should have gotten a second PK call as well.] I actually didn't think the first game was as intense or riveting as it seems it should have been, but at least both teams played to their levels. That didn't happen in the second game.
The question is why. In addition to what I suggested above, I think a big difference is that OWU being OWU meant absolutely nothing to Tufts. Of course that's partly because they had just beaten Messiah, so there is no reason to fear anyone after that, but in the coach interview with Shapiro you could tell that Tufts was genuinely confident and that OWU's tradition/experience/legacy stuff was going to have zero impact on the Jumbos. And as for OWU, they already had played that card, against an opponent that was susceptible to it, because the opponent had suffered from the reputation and hocus-pocus kind of mind-game advantage before. With Tufts, OWU couldn't figure out any way to get a foothold inside the figurative head of Tufts. Other than a vague sense of OWU having a good program historically, it doesn't appear that OWU meant anything in particular to Tufts at all. To be fair, Tufts was playing a good but not great OWU team...an OWU team who in contrast to past years really out-performed just to get to the Final Four. And to repeat, beating Messiah as the lead-in certainly helped.
I hope the final is a great one. The set-up is great, with both teams having very good reasons going in to believe "this is our year." Unlike yesterday for Tufts, the physical match-up should be very even. Wheaton is as big and fast and skilled as Tufts. Let's all hope that the officiating doesn't negatively impact the result.
And if they beat Wheaton today Tufts will be an extremely deserving champion, beating quality opponents from start to finish including the 3 most storied programs in D3 soccer history.
Well said NCAC.
I have said for a while I do not think a new champion would be crowned.
I like the Wheaton program a lot from what I saw earlier in the year and perhaps a bit biased having played them before, ditto for Messiah.
Add OWU to the mix and I think as stated above the three best teams in the premiership era for sure.
Soccer is tradition.
That being said, there should be little argument that the winner of today's game is not the best team in the country. If not then why play the tournament.
Brazil and their 5 stars on their crest got spanked out of the World Cup by a superior opponent. Would not have mattered they lost in PKs.
The Champion of D3 soccer is the best team in D3 soccer until they are beaten and dethroned.
There can be only one...
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 06, 2014, 01:34:41 AM
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 05, 2014, 11:59:27 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 05, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
These are two very good teams at what they do and they have advanced through the tournament, and deserve to be crowned tournament champions. But I'm not sure I would declare them the two very best soccer teams in the land.
Tufts is playing very well and they beat Messiah which no one has done in quite some time. Messiah, imho is still up there as the best team, but whoever wins tomorrow has to be considered the best. Who do u think are the best?
Is Rutgers-Camden one of the best teams in the country or did they just happen to make a single run at a single point in time? When Tufts and Wheaton start putting multiple recent stars on their crest then I think we can start talking about them as "best". Until then I have to go with Messiah's 10 recent stars on their crest.
Rutgers-Camden was a top 10 team the last 3 years. They won't be dropping off anytime soon. After losing 7 starters they competed vs a tough schedule and were probably one of last two teams out. Would have performed better than Salisbury or North Park...
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 08:39:45 AM
While certainly understandable in the midst of the excitement over Tufts' phenomenal performances, some of the attempted extrapolations in that wake are pretty silly, and are reliant on only making extrapolations in one direction. Yes, Tufts beat Messiah and then completely dominated OWU from the opening whistle. That said, the Tufts blowout of OWU tells us almost nothing about where OWU would finish in the NESCAC, anymore than the Tufts' loss to Conn College told us anything about Tufts' chances to go on a remarkable run to the national final and very possibly a national championship. Tufts isn't playing for the NESCAC. Tufts is playing for Tufts. And right now Tufts is a very impressive team that at this point would probably be favored against every team in the country not named Messiah or Wheaton. And if they beat Wheaton today Tufts will be an extremely deserving champion, beating quality opponents from start to finish including the 3 most storied programs in D3 soccer history.
...
I hope the final is a great one. The set-up is great, with both teams having very good reasons going in to believe "this is our year." Unlike yesterday for Tufts, the physical match-up should be very even. Wheaton is as big and fast and skilled as Tufts. Let's all hope that the officiating doesn't negatively impact the result.
Wow. What a post. Kudos!
Massey has Wheaton(#1) vs Tufts (#4) as basically a neutral field toss-up. Would love to see Wheaton give coach Guiliano a National Championship to remember before he moves on.
Best of luck to both teams; forecast looks chilly but dry; hoping to see a well-played match not decided by conditions, officiating and please no shootout!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 06, 2014, 09:05:05 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 06, 2014, 01:34:41 AM
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 05, 2014, 11:59:27 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:04:08 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 05, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
THE two best tams will be playing for the title tomorrow imo.
These boyz deserve the crown whoever wins.
Great Tournament.
These are two very good teams at what they do and they have advanced through the tournament, and deserve to be crowned tournament champions. But I'm not sure I would declare them the two very best soccer teams in the land.
Tufts is playing very well and they beat Messiah which no one has done in quite some time. Messiah, imho is still up there as the best team, but whoever wins tomorrow has to be considered the best. Who do u think are the best?
Is Rutgers-Camden one of the best teams in the country or did they just happen to make a single run at a single point in time? When Tufts and Wheaton start putting multiple recent stars on their crest then I think we can start talking about them as "best". Until then I have to go with Messiah's 10 recent stars on their crest.
Rutgers-Camden was a top 10 team the last 3 years. They won't be dropping off anytime soon. After losing 7 starters they competed vs a tough schedule and were probably one of last two teams out. Would have performed better than Salisbury or North Park...
I think you already defeated your own argument. RC has already fallen off. 8 losses this year. Did not win their conference. Did not make the national tournament. Now if they come back strong next year I think that can give credence to an argument that says 2014 was an aberration. Time will tell.
Quote from: GoPerry on December 06, 2014, 11:29:20 AM
Massey has Wheaton(#1) vs Tufts (#4) as basically a neutral field toss-up. Would love to see Wheaton give coach Guiliano a National Championship to remember before he moves on.
Best of luck to both teams; forecast looks chilly but dry; hoping to see a well-played match not decided by conditions, officiating and please no shootout!
Coach Giuliano from Wheaton is certainly the sentimental favorite. Very nice man and a very good soccer coach. I wish him the best. It would be awesome for him to leave college coaching with a National Championship.
Wheaton 2-1 is my guess here...
Wheaton is falling apart. Looks like their entire game plan is to get a head ball to Golz. And Tufts is ready for it. Can't imagine Wheaton can score three to win with only a half remaining. But we will see.
Tufts is too good a team, especially defensively to give up the kind of goals Wheaton gave up. Gotta make Tufts earn their lead more than that. Not saying Tufts isn't playing well--they are--but this game should still really be 0-0. Wheaton seems to have done better against Tufts in the middle of the field than anyone else, but they didn't have the answer closer to goal.
Agree FW - that first goal was tough to give up. GK might have been a bit screened but he had a clear shot at catching it. Tough PK to give up too but give Tufts credit for making him try to defend.
Tufts seems to be getting better every game. I don't think anyone could have imagined they were going to be this good. And their confidence level is sky high. How did they not score 3-4 goals in every game this year? They have offensive weapons in waves. As one of the few who questioned Shapiro's moves early in the season, I have to say he now looks like a genius. Dare I say I could see them beating Messiah again at this point.
One of the only questions left is will Kramer or Hoppenot do something really stupid.
Gentlemen, we are watching the best team in D3 soccer grab their crown!
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 03:42:58 PM
Tufts seems to be getting better every game. I don't think anyone could have imagined they were going to be this good. And their confidence level is sky high. How did they not score 3-4 goals in every game this year? They have offensive weapons in waves. As one of the few who questioned Shapiro's moves early in the season, I have to say he now looks like a genius. Dare I say I could see them beating Messiah again at this point.
I think Messiah would take that game in an instant.
Hollingsworth might be the best D3 player in the country.
Wow! We have a game! Buckle up for the 30 minutes of this game
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 06, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Gentlemen, we are watching the best team in D3 soccer grab their crown!
Don't talk too soon!
Stop the coronation and wake Tufts back up ... they've got 30 minutes to play yet
I never specified a team :D
Geez, if Hollingsworth just tore an ACL that's awful. Kid was playing a great game.
Greenwood standing on his head.
"Nothing is given, everything is earned" . . . in a championship game!
Tufts is trying to park the bus and it is backfiring.
Is anyone else's stream becoming extremely choppy?
My stream is holding out pretty good...
Tufts getting really chippy, and Wheaton playing in too much of a rush.
Congrats to Tufts!
Congrats to Tufts!
Well played Tufts. Very deserving! Congratulations.
Congrats to Coach Shapiro. Unbelievable job finally putting all the pieces together with that team. A national championship certainly won't hurt recruiting either. Tufts is going to be a force for a while.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 04:47:05 PM
Congrats to Coach Shapiro. Unbelievable job finally putting all the pieces together with that team. A national championship certainly won't hurt recruiting either. Tufts is going to be a force for a while.
Hypocrite...Same guy questioning Shapiro all year. No clue
Happy for Santos. What a way for an enormously talented kid who obviously had some ups and downs to work things out, gain his coach's trust when it really mattered, and walk off with a national title.
Hats off to Hollingsworth for Wheaton too. He and Anthony and Borges really tried valiantly to get them all the way back.
Yes - Tufts well deserving of this title based on their play through the whole tournament. What a run in those final 3 games: Messiah-OWU-Wheaton.
I think I know someone else who questioned Shapiro's starting line-ups early on as well. I was wrong about Shapiro and wrong about Tufts in general. They are as deserving as they come. I'd be curious to know exactly how Shapiro got them back on course after the Conn Coll game.
Soccer can be a strange game. At the start, looked like Wheaton would run away with it. Soccer gods are fickle. Tufts made good on chances while the Thunder did not until a bit too late.
Anyone else annoyed by the announcers who kept talking about how great Wheaton is--even when it was 4-2 with two mins remaining? With about a minute to go, they started praising Tufts.
Anyway: Go NESCAC!
Tufts cruised through the final four - scoring 7 goals in two games. Seems like the real championship game was Tufts vs Messiah. Congrats to Tufts!
Wheaton certainly had a lot of heart, but didn't seem quite organized enough to win (particularly in the back).
Looking forward to next season.
I agree that it was strange to have a Wheaton guy basically doing the color commentary. Great game Tufts is really, really good...duh.
Yes I thought they could have had him in the booth for few minute interview. But the second half was pretty much a Wheaton commercial while Tufts was taking it to them. I think the NCAA blew that one.
I agree, but in fairness the Wheaton guy was pretty complimentary towards Tufts and even endorsed calls that went against Wheaton including the handball call for a 2nd PK that really didn't give Wheaton any advantage when it happened. The Wheaton guy also said the game was over at 3-0. This probably won't be remembered much later, but Greenwood make a couple of spectacular saves to keep the game from going to 3-3, and if Wheaton had scored again Tufts was going to be in real trouble.
Quote from: KICKIN95 on December 05, 2014, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:24:02 PM
Wheaton got the early game on Friday but had to go the distance with their starters. Honestly I thought Wheaton lost the game when they gave up the goal with 5 mins to go. I watched the live stream and saw the replay twice and still can't figure out why the goal was disallowed. And if you watch the reactions of the Wheaton players it looked like they thought it was a goal too. Anyone know the true story on that?
Tufts on the other hand, had an easier game. They got to rest their starters a bit. So that could work to their advantage tomorrow.
Hopefully it will be a good game. Field conditions could also be a factor.
The goal was disallowed because the keeper had "possession" of the ball. I didn't think so until the replay, but he clearly had both hands on the ball and the opposing player kicked it while in the keepers possession. At one time all the keeper needed was 1 hand to constitute possession, but not sure if that's still the law. That was a very good call by the official in my eyes, takes a keen eye and big balls to make that call.
Photo posted on D3soccer.com here (http://www.d3soccer.com/notables/2014/12/NCAA_Semi_Mens) confirms that the Wheaeton goalie had two hands on the ball prior to Santangelo's shot. Ref got it right.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d3soccer.com%2Fimages%2F2014%2FOneonta-Wheaton-disallowed-goal.JPG&hash=4143c9807fe6a4cc3407294eecc72ec18a3d35c6)
...and I (we) thought those Bennett Rankings were absurd. Tufts ranked #1 the third week of season and I think as high as 4th last year...
NCAC... You have been bashing Tufts and Shapiro all year. It almost seems as if you have a grudge against them and the NESCAC. Tufts midfield was quick and the defense strong. That was the winning combination all year. Wheaton goes down... Messiah goes down. And so it goes. Now, finally you praise them....I think Tufts shocked your heavy favorites. Wheaton had a hard time with them at first and it threw them off. There is a new king in town...The Tufts Jumbos.
Nutmeg, I was hard on Tufts. And I wasn't alone early in the season. I have very publicly admitted I was wrong. What else would you like me to do? And how many of you a month ago truly believed Tufts would be lifting the championship trophy? Did you?
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC. This was a victory for Tufts. As I've noted, I like a few of the NESCAC schools but in general I am not a NESCAC fan. It seems that the NESCAC is more than well represented on the site. And the NESCAC in general is too clubby and pretentious for my tastes. For me it is a little too much of a prep school-fest.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
Nutmeg, I was hard on Tufts. And I wasn't alone early in the season. I have very publicly admitted I was wrong. What else would you like me to do? And how many of you a month ago truly believed Tufts would be lifting the championship trophy? Did you?
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC. This was a victory for Tufts. As I've noted, I like a few of the NESCAC schools but in general I am not a NESCAC fan. It seems that the NESCAC is more than well represented on the site. And the NESCAC in general is too clubby and pretentious for my tastes. For me it is a little too much of a prep school-fest.
Well look at my dark horse prediction in that thread before the tourney started. tufts and Bowdoin. So, someone was on tufts a month ago..
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 06, 2014, 08:14:40 PM
...and I (we) thought those Bennett Rankings were absurd. Tufts ranked #1 the third week of season and I think as high as 4th last year...
Ha ha. Hail Bennett Rankings!
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 10, 2014, 05:02:33 PM
Kenyon, Wheaton, Oneonta St, Tufts would be the 4 that I think could knock off Messiah. Oneonta St has played them twice in the last 3 years. (Messiah 2, Oneonta St. 1 1OT in 2013) (Messiah 0, Oneonta St 0 in 2012). We know of the Kenyon result last year...
Of course OWU, Calvin, CNU (before they kind of fell off mid-season).
Ehh not a bad grouping of a thought process as OWU beat CNU to reach final 4.
More importantly, congrats to the Jumbos for a well deserved title.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 06, 2014, 08:02:34 PM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on December 05, 2014, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 05, 2014, 11:24:02 PM
Wheaton got the early game on Friday but had to go the distance with their starters. Honestly I thought Wheaton lost the game when they gave up the goal with 5 mins to go. I watched the live stream and saw the replay twice and still can't figure out why the goal was disallowed. And if you watch the reactions of the Wheaton players it looked like they thought it was a goal too. Anyone know the true story on that?
Tufts on the other hand, had an easier game. They got to rest their starters a bit. So that could work to their advantage tomorrow.
Hopefully it will be a good game. Field conditions could also be a factor.
The goal was disallowed because the keeper had "possession" of the ball. I didn't think so until the replay, but he clearly had both hands on the ball and the opposing player kicked it while in the keepers possession. At one time all the keeper needed was 1 hand to constitute possession, but not sure if that's still the law. That was a very good call by the official in my eyes, takes a keen eye and big balls to make that call.
Photo posted on D3soccer.com here (http://www.d3soccer.com/notables/2014/12/NCAA_Semi_Mens) confirms that the Wheaeton goalie had two hands on the ball prior to Santangelo's shot. Ref got it right.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d3soccer.com%2Fimages%2F2014%2FOneonta-Wheaton-disallowed-goal.JPG&hash=4143c9807fe6a4cc3407294eecc72ec18a3d35c6)
That's probably a 1/24th second freeze frame. If that ball was actually stopped under his hand then it was probably the right call.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
Yes, people often said Tufts SOS didn't matter and cited mathematical reasons. The failed to recognize the general premise that a strong SOS helps prepare you generally four tougher competition.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
1) No one has suggested the Tufts victory (and whole title run) was a fluke. Quite the contrary, even from diehard Messiah fans.
2) In all my time on this board I 've
never seen anyone rank the NESCAC anywhere but #1 or #2 among all conferences. In fact, if any comments have been made about not showing well in the tournament relative to the prominence of the conference it has been about the UAA.
3) I personally think you all are diminishing the Tufts title by making it so much of a NESCAC thing. The trophy is going into the
Tufts trophy case. I can guarantee you that being a NESCAC member played ZERO role in terms of Tufts' motivation to march through the tournament field, and indeed the way they won it (away at Wheaton MA, away at Muhlenberg, basically in Messiah's backyard, and then OWU and Wheaton Ill back to back) may be one of the most impressive runs in D3 soccer history.
4) The amount of NESCAC self-cheering on this board reinforces some of my overall impressions of the conference and its fans. There is a lot to like. I would have been happy for my kids to go to one of them. One of my kids applied to and got in 4 out of 5 NESCACs. Great, great schools with strong athletic tradition and heavily athlete-oriented studen bodies. But for my taste there is something a little over the top in terms of attitude and elitism which makes "the NESCAC" (as some monolithic entity) easy to cheer against.
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 07, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
Yes, people often said Tufts SOS didn't matter and cited mathematical reasons. The failed to recognize the general premise that a strong SOS helps prepare you generally four tougher competition.
False. No one said SOS didn't matter. We/they said it isn't a predictor of who is going to win a particular game. What about the teams that had an even higher SOS, like Brandeis, Rochester, maybe Emory, etc?
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 07, 2014, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: Nutmeg on December 07, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
Yes, people often said Tufts SOS didn't matter and cited mathematical reasons. The failed to recognize the general premise that a strong SOS helps prepare you generally four tougher competition.
False. No one said SOS didn't matter. We/they said it isn't a predictor of who is going to win a particular game. What about the teams that had an even higher SOS, like Brandeis, Rochester, maybe Emory, etc?
I can accept that.......
Ok, NCAC. You're not a fan of the NESCAC. Your allegiance lies with NCAC (hence your name). That's where your kid (and maybe you?) has played. That makes sense to me. But as much as some posters on this board are pro-NESCAC, there are vocal critics--yourself included. We NESCAC fans get defensive--even while most of us do not lay hate on other conferences while praising our own. You and I have different perspectives. That's ok.
Also: Go NESCAC! ;D
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 07, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
1) No one has suggested the Tufts victory (and whole title run) was a fluke. Quite the contrary, even from diehard Messiah fans.
2) In all my time on this board I 've never seen anyone rank the NESCAC anywhere but #1 or #2 among all conferences. In fact, if any comments have been made about not showing well in the tournament relative to the prominence of the conference it has been about the UAA.
3) I personally think you all are diminishing the Tufts title by making it so much of a NESCAC thing. The trophy is going into the Tufts trophy case. I can guarantee you that being a NESCAC member played ZERO role in terms of Tufts' motivation to march through the tournament field, and indeed the way they won it (away at Wheaton MA, away at Muhlenberg, basically in Messiah's backyard, and then OWU and Wheaton Ill back to back) may be one of the most impressive runs in D3 soccer history.
4) The amount of NESCAC self-cheering on this board reinforces some of my overall impressions of the conference and its fans. There is a lot to like. I would have been happy for my kids to go to one of them. One of my kids applied to and got in 4 out of 5 NESCACs. Great, great schools with strong athletic tradition and heavily athlete-oriented studen bodies. But for my taste there is something a little over the top in terms of attitude and elitism which makes "the NESCAC" (as some monolithic entity) easy to cheer against.
Dude, what about the players who come from public schools?
J4J, seriously? I haven't seen a lot of posts from NESCAC critics. I can count the ones I've written over a period of months that could be viewed as negative on one hand -- one or two early on about Tufts, Bull's GK antics, and a couple recently in response to the NESCAC cheerleading about the NESCAC attitude. There has been nothing that comes close to the NESCAC on NESCAC crime, regarding Bates and especially Amherst. Seems that some of you would like to annex Amherst from the NESCAC.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
If "championships are a barometer for strength of league" as so many of the NESCAC faithful proclaim, then I think you should start a new message board where you all can talk about whether you are the second, third or fourth best conference. Because using your very own criteria, the hard-working, blue collar, largely Pennsylvania-based Middle Atlantic Conference REIGNS SUPREME - no one is even close. Again using the NESCAC faithful's criteria of "championships are a barometer for strength of league" let's look at the numbers.
National Championships over the past 10 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 7
NESCAC -- 2
National Championships over the past 20 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 10
NESCAC -- 3
This isn't even close. Again using your very own criteria, the Middle Atlantic Conference is by far THE BEST IN LAND. I rest my case. And you should too.
Ohh boy . . . . gonna grab some popcorn and settle into a comfortable chair, because this could "entertaining".
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 07, 2014, 01:34:10 PM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
If "championships are a barometer for strength of league" as so many of the NESCAC faithful proclaim, then I think you should start a new message board where you all can talk about whether you are the second, third or fourth best conference. Because using your very own criteria, the hard-working, blue collar, largely Pennsylvania-based Middle Atlantic Conference REIGNS SUPREME - no one is even close. Again using the NESCAC faithful's criteria of "championships are a barometer for strength of league" let's look at the numbers.
National Championships over the past 10 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 7
NESCAC -- 2
National Championships over the past 20 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 10
NESCAC -- 3
This isn't even close. Again using your very own criteria, the Middle Atlantic Conference is by far THE BEST IN LAND. I rest my case. And you should too.
Jump4Joy said
A barometer, not the only barometer. See the difference? But i'm guessing you know that and are just trying to get under the skin of us NESCAC fans, as not even the staunchest Messiah fan would argue that the Middle Atlantic Conference is the top conference in D3.
Quote from: dacac on December 07, 2014, 02:53:07 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 07, 2014, 01:34:10 PM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 06, 2014, 09:27:53 PM
I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
If "championships are a barometer for strength of league" as so many of the NESCAC faithful proclaim, then I think you should start a new message board where you all can talk about whether you are the second, third or fourth best conference. Because using your very own criteria, the hard-working, blue collar, largely Pennsylvania-based Middle Atlantic Conference REIGNS SUPREME - no one is even close. Again using the NESCAC faithful's criteria of "championships are a barometer for strength of league" let's look at the numbers.
National Championships over the past 10 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 7
NESCAC -- 2
National Championships over the past 20 years:
Middle Atlantic Conference -- 10
NESCAC -- 3
This isn't even close. Again using your very own criteria, the Middle Atlantic Conference is by far THE BEST IN LAND. I rest my case. And you should too.
Jump4Joy said A barometer, not the only barometer. See the difference? But i'm guessing you know that and are just trying to get under the skin of us NESCAC fans, as not even the staunchest Messiah fan would argue that the Middle Atlantic Conference is the top conference in D3.
I commented on the only piece of "evidence" that was presented as a measuring stick...number of championships. So OK, I'll bite. What are the other barometers of strength of league/conference?
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
The giant-slayer goal finally emerges! Not great quality (Don't know where it came from... I was looking for their tournament highlights) but what a strike by Mr. Kayne.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GHHmKLtJ70
Unfortunately finals come at a really bad time so I haven't had a chance to go back through the games or analyze anything. Brief thoughts from Tufts-OWU:
Tufts was (obviously) good value for the win. Knew the wingers were good, and the backs were strong, but was very impressed with the way their midfield both pressured and kept the ball. OWU didn't really force them to play a spectacular game, but they were tidy in possession and really good without it. Also showed some flexibility because that was a very different approach than Tufts used against Messiah. At the game, after the first five minutes it never felt like OWU was going to break through. The alums were hoping halftime would turn things, to play poorly and only be down 1-0, but no dice.
Very disappointing game from OWU. A huge, huge part of that was Tufts, but whether it was the early goal, the stage, or who knows what else, OWU was panicky. First touch nonexistent, just launching the ball, couldn't string passes together. They also sat off Tufts after that opening goal, which is very unlike OWU. Early in the season when OWU struggled there was no pressure defensively, but they started playing better once they went back to getting up into teams. They didn't do that, and the few times individual players applied pressure Tufts was really, really good playing out of it.
Anyone who thinks OWU was the weakest Final Four team in ages hasn't paid much attention. Blowouts happened at this stage in 2013 (Williams lost 4-0), 2012 (ONU lost 5-1), and 2011 (Montclair State lost 4-0). In 2006 Wheaton made the final with a 16-8-4 record (and lost 3-0). OWU made it by going through PSU-Behrend (RV in Top 25), Calvin (#6), Kenyon (#4), and Newport (#16), all away from home, and all in games where they were the better team. I won't argue luck played a role, PKs or otherwise, but OWU earned a spot there and were good enough for it. They just laid an egg against a very, very good team and were punished severely.
Anyway, congratulations to Tufts. Also, glad the interviews were well received. All of the coaches, regardless of how the transcripts came across, were extremely classy and candid in answering all of the questions. I'd expect all four programs to remain in the upper echelon of D3 so long as they keep those guys - or Wheaton someone similar - in the top spot.
Quote from: SoccerFollower on December 07, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
The giant-slayer goal finally emerges! Not great quality (Don't know where it came from... I was looking for their tournament highlights) but what a strike by Mr. Kayne.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GHHmKLtJ70
Thank you for posting this! I'd read about, but not actually seen it. Great job...thanks for sharing.
Doesn't it seem like ages ago that we were talking about Luther and Ohio Northern being snubbed? When was the last Coast Guard reference?
BTW NESCAC fans, I realize nothing short of pure devotion will do (unless I join you in piling on Amherst, who, btw, still has one of the best 4-5 year records in D3 history)), but I did pay Tufts the highest compliment I've seen on this site....that they might well get another result against Messiah if they played again.
Quote from: SoccerFollower on December 07, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
The giant-slayer goal finally emerges! Not great quality (Don't know where it came from... I was looking for their tournament highlights) but what a strike by Mr. Kayne.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GHHmKLtJ70
Even with the poor quality you can see what a great goal it was. I am sure it was Tufts goal of the year and maybe the tournament's best goal. Upper 90 with a side volley from about 25 yards out.....
"Knew the wingers were good, and the backs were strong, but was very impressed with the way their midfield both pressured and kept the ball."
I think the midfield is probably the unsung strength of Tufts. The NESCAC posters mentioned all year how well the Tufts midfield played, both offensively and defensively, and how well they moved the ball, and scored. I really think Messiah, Tufts and Wheaton have the best midfields in the country, with Tufts and Messiah playing the "prettiest" soccer.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 07, 2014, 12:39:52 PM
J4J, seriously? I haven't seen a lot of posts from NESCAC critics. I can count the ones I've written over a period of months that could be viewed as negative on one hand -- one or two early on about Tufts, Bull's GK antics, and a couple recently in response to the NESCAC cheerleading about the NESCAC attitude. There has been nothing that comes close to the NESCAC on NESCAC crime, regarding Bates and especially Amherst. Seems that some of you would like to annex Amherst from the NESCAC.
Some of us likes Amherst just fine...perhaps if Tufts dominated for 4-5 more years, they'd be in the same boat
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 06, 2014, 04:59:00 PM
Soccer can be a strange game. At the start, looked like Wheaton would run away with it. Soccer gods are fickle. Tufts made good on chances while the Thunder did not until a bit too late.
Anyone else annoyed by the announcers who kept talking about how great Wheaton is--even when it was 4-2 with two mins remaining? With about a minute to go, they started praising Tufts.
Anyway: Go NESCAC!
Great point. Why did they have Wheaton's women's coach all second half? It took away from the game action and was not fair to the other team. I hope they learn from this blunder. Yes, he made some fair comments but to hear all second half about Wheaton's coach and players was a distraction and basically a disgrace...
Quote from: SoccerFollower on December 07, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
The giant-slayer goal finally emerges! Not great quality (Don't know where it came from... I was looking for their tournament highlights) but what a strike by Mr. Kayne.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GHHmKLtJ70
Yep, Thanks for posting....really wish for a better video of the goal...that was the Giant Slayer...
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 04:29:41 PM
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on December 07, 2014, 07:00:55 PM
Also, glad the interviews were well received. All of the coaches, regardless of how the transcripts came across, were extremely classy and candid in answering all of the questions. I'd expect all four programs to remain in the upper echelon of D3 so long as they keep those guys - or Wheaton someone similar - in the top spot.
I echo the thanks of others for conducting the interviews and distilling them into what you posted online. The interviews gave great insight into the leaders of the Final Four teams and enhanced the viewing experience on Friday and Saturday. Your efforts were very much appreciated!
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 07, 2014, 09:23:05 PM
Doesn't it seem like ages ago that we were talking about Luther and Ohio Northern being snubbed? When was the last Coast Guard reference?
BTW NESCAC fans, I realize nothing short of pure devotion will do (unless I join you in piling on Amherst, who, btw, still has one of the best 4-5 year records in D3 history)), but I did pay Tufts the highest compliment I've seen on this site....that they might well get another result against Messiah if they played again.
Big mistake above. Meant John Carroll, not Ohio Northern.
Perennial teams still looking for the ultimate breakthrough -- Loras, Trinity, Amherst (and if the NESCAC is THAT good with those sterling SOS's then Amherst has got to ranked #2 behind Messiah over the past 5 years given the unbeaten streak that extended over 2-3 years and now at just 4 losses over 4 years).
Teams with very good seasons but with higher hopes and seasons ending in disappointment/bitter disappointment -- Kenyon, Brandeis, F&M, Calvin.
Team to watch under the radar -- Thomas More.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 08, 2014, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 04:29:41 PM
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7
I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.
Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on
collective postseason achievements.
Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...
Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.
MVP (Most Valuable Poster)
Criteria: Knowledge, Wit, Personality, Passion, Alias
Would make a great poll question!!!
In no particular order:
1) NCAC ( Intelligent lad with great analysis, no bias toward Kenyon whatsoever ) ;)
2) Mr. Right (If confidence is the most important ingredient in soccer, the man is a born General) ::)
3) Flying falcon (KNOWLEDGE) :D
4) Lapaz (Can we get a bring back Lapaz movement going? A bit passionate, but knows his stuff) ::)
5) RH (The man does not come around that often, but great job on interviews and thought out posts) 8-)
Lycoming would be lucky to get one win vs the top 5 in the NESCAC. 1-3-1 is being generous. Using SOS as a barometer, Lycoming didn't go out to play any strong programs (with the exception of Rochester) outside of the already watered down MACC.
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 12:47:19 PM
Pretty classy move by both programs here after the game. That's what it's about! Kudos.
(Last two pics)
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/galleries/?gallery=104
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 12:47:19 PM
Pretty classy move by both programs here after the game. That's what it's about! Kudos.
(Last two pics)
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/galleries/?gallery=104
Yep, very classy. Great photo and 2 very classy teams...
Great year for the Mitsuyama brother/sister combo. Rei at Kenyon All District Academic All American, 1st team NCAC, and just invited to Columbus Crew combine. Mai at Williams All NESCAC, All Region, Final Four All Tournament, and nailed first PK for Williams in national title game.
Mitsuyama is skilled but "soft". He is soft for D3, no chance he makes the Crew. Maybe a token invite?
Mitsuyama is an impressive player. Also have to imagine Colton Bloecher was too. Paolo Bucci from OWU attended the same combine last year. Nice to see Crew scouting D3 here and there. I have to imagine Jeremiah Barnes will be invited next year. He's in the upper echelon of players in D3 and in my opinion, the best player on Kenyon.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 08, 2014, 10:11:45 PM
Mitsuyama is an impressive player. Also have to imagine Colton Bloecher was too. Paolo Bucci from OWU attended the same combine last year. Nice to see Crew scouting D3 here and there. I have to imagine Jeremiah Barnes will be invited next year. He's in the upper echelon of players in D3 and in my opinion, the best player on Kenyon.
I watched for Bloecher in the Tufts game since I heard so much about him but he really didn't stand out...maybe he or the whole team just had a bad day. Ironically, the unheralded Tufts midfield may have hade their best performance that game.
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 08, 2014, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 04:29:41 PM
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7
I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.
Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.
Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...
Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.
Oldonionbag-
Here's the conversation...
NCAC New England said...I also admit that I don't get how so many are looking at Tufts and NESCAC as virtually synonymous. Tufts won, not the NESCAC.
And then J4J said...NCAC, it IS a NESCAC victory in that voices on this board were using championships as a barometer for strength of league. Tufts is not the only NESCAC to reach the final four recently and not the only conference rep to have won it all. The league has been a fairly regular presence deep in the post-season, despite some voices claiming otherwise. That's where this "Go NESCAC" cheer is coming from. Undeniably, NESCAC is one of the strongest leagues in the division. The Tufts trophy was not a fluke for Tufts this year and not a fluke for the conference.
So then I say...if as J4J clearly said that Tufts' victory "IS a NESCAC victory" then surely every Messiah victory IS a Middle Atlantic Conference victory. What's good for the goose is surely good for the gander.
As for all the NESCAC teams making the Final 4 on a regular basis this century there are some things to consider.
Middlebury - won it all once in 2007 and never made the Final 4 again.
Amherst - one Final 4 appearance in 2008 and never made the Final 4 again.
Bowdoin - one Final 4 appearance in 2010 - absolutely tanked in 2011 and never made the Final 4 again
Tufts - obviously won it all this year in really spectacular fashion. Jury is still out as to their ability to stay on top over a long period of time. So need to wait and see. But right now...no doubt a very good team.
Williams - has made the Final 4 three times but did not win it all. But as for longevity with really deep runs they are the best in NESCAC. But in their last appearance in the final 4, well I don't need to remind you how they got dismantled by that Middle Atlantic Conference team.
If you want to claim quality, then you have to have longevity in really deep runs (on a regular basis as you put it)...and there really isn't a ton of that on this list. So what you have are teams "chasing the butterfly" and just happening to catch it now and then (with the exception of Williams).
Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country. Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.
So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis. And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down. If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 09, 2014, 12:04:31 AM
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 08, 2014, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 04:29:41 PM
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7
I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.
Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.
Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...
Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.
Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country. Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.
So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis. And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down. If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.
Thanks for digging up that conversation, d3. I guess I should've gone back to take a look. I guess my main argument is that the depth of the NESCAC is far greater than the depth of the MAC.
I'll take issue with your Elizabethtown statement and your "if NESCAC teams played in the MAC they wouldn't make the playoffs almost ever this century."
1) The bottom of the NESCAC rotates with incredible fluctuation. You may have heard of a team by the name of Tufts, who just won the National Championship. In 2009 they finished DEAD last in the NESCAC w/o a conference victory and only TWO out of conference wins. Five years later they are the best team in d3 soccer. You don't "run away" from a conference because you can't hang. Sure, Tufts could have gone to the NEWMAC or UAA or something and finished much better within those conferences...but that's exactly because they aren't the NESCAC. The NESCAC gauntlet breeds winners and tough teams that continually go deep in the NCAAs because many of the teams they play in the opening rounds are worse/the same than those they play during the regular season NESCAC games.
2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness", let's take a look at a team who joins one. Case in point- Hamilton College leaving the Liberty League in 2010 for the NESCAC 2011. Take a look at this perennial power from one of the "top tier" d3 soccer conferences in the country's record from 2004 to present:
2013: 5-7-3 NESCAC playoffs (lost first round)
2012: 4-8-2
2011: 5-6-3
JOINS NESCAC
2010: 9-3-3 Liberty League semifinalists
2009: 9-5-1 Liberty League semifinalists
2008: 8-6-0
2007: 10-5-3 Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
2006: 11-4-1 Liberty League regular season champions; league championship semifinalists; NCAA first round
2005: 9-5-1 Liberty League semifinalists
2004: 11-4-2 Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
From being top of the conference year and in and year out to not even making the playoffs until this year, and that despite a losing record.
3) The reason the NESCAC continually gets 3 at large bids is due to the fact that it is comprised of excellent teams. The statement you made about struggling to make the playoffs if the NESCACs played in the MAC is laughable if not absolutely preposterous. How would the top of the MAC table would look with NESCAC teams inserted? I think that most here on these boards would not be surprised for it to finish like this..
Top tier
Tufts
Messiah
Amherst
Upper Middle tier
Williams
Middlebury
Bowdoin
Lower Middle tier
Wesleyan
Lycoming
Conn College
There are very few teams who wouldn't be considered a easy game for the top 6 or 7 NESCAC teams in the MAC. And the middle of the NESCAC would obliterate the middle of the MAC. I don't understand how you came to your conclusion? Additionally, if Messiah played in the NESCAC, they wouldn't have a single cupcake game in conference, save for maybe Bates? For example, they're not going to rest starters against Trinity like they can against Hood. Every game would be a battle.
In conclusion, I now understand your debate with J4J, and I should have done my due diligence to take a look at what was said prior. If one team decides a conference, then yes the MAC reigns supreme. However, in my opinon, one team does not a conference make, and the fact of the matter is- the NESCAC is the most competitive league in the country top to bottom. And if you disagree with me on that, then I think our friend Mr. Right might hit you with facts that I can only dream of unearthing ;)
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 09, 2014, 09:52:11 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 09, 2014, 12:04:31 AM
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 08, 2014, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 07, 2014, 04:29:41 PM
D3W: one of the barometers. For ONE of the strongest conferences. Never claimed to be THE best. Deep breaths.
I guess I would suggest that deep runs by more than one team from the conference on a regular basis would be ONE other barometer.
In this century, conference appearances in the NCAA Final 4 are as follows:
Middle Atlantic Conference - 12
NESCAC - 7
I think you missed J4J's main point. Don't confuse a "conference" for one team (cough, cough Messiah). The depth of the NESCAC blows the depth of the Middle Atlantic out of the water. Not taking anything away from Messiah, as they are obviously the standard in d3 soccer, but of the MAC's 12 appearances in the final four, almost all (if not all, maybe Lycoming but can't remember) are from that one school.
Conversely, the NESCAC has had Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, and Tufts all reach the final four (and that's just since 2007). Top to bottom, which I think is J4J's point, the NESCAC is undeniably better based on collective postseason achievements.
Was Messiah better than the five teams I named above? I'd say yes - except for Tufts (based on head to head this year, Tufts won). The NESCACs top five would most likely beat the MAC's top five with the exception of Messiah on a consistent basis. I would give each of the 5 NESCAC teams a 50-50 shot each game against Lycoming, and maybe thats even a bit too generous. If Lycoming played in the NESCAC, I'd have them finishing around #3 or #4 each year. And before you get defensive, keep in mind Tufts beat Messiah 1-0 this year, and Lycoming lost to Messiah 3-0, and then again 4-0...
Again, not taking away from the top programs of the MAC, but top to bottom, the NESCAC is deeper and tougher to play in, week in and week out.
Ask all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country. Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.
So I go back to where J4J so outlandishly started this...if the Tufts victory IS a NESCAC victory, then all the Messiah victory's ARE Middle Atlantic Conference victory's and the MAC is still on top with really deep runs on a regular basis. And which conference is harder to win...Middle Atlantic Conference...hands down. If all the NESCAC teams were in the Middle Atlantic Conference they probably would have rarely if ever even made the playoffs this century.
Thanks for digging up that conversation, d3. I guess I should've gone back to take a look. I guess my main argument is that the depth of the NESCAC is far greater than the depth of the MAC.
I'll take issue with your Elizabethtown statement and your "if NESCAC teams played in the MAC they wouldn't make the playoffs almost ever this century."
1) The bottom of the NESCAC rotates with incredible fluctuation. You may have heard of a team by the name of Tufts, who just won the National Championship. In 2009 they finished DEAD last in the NESCAC w/o a conference victory and only TWO out of conference wins. Five years later they are the best team in d3 soccer. You don't "run away" from a conference because you can't hang. Sure, Tufts could have gone to the NEWMAC or UAA or something and finished much better within those conferences...but that's exactly because they aren't the NESCAC. The NESCAC gauntlet breeds winners and tough teams that continually go deep in the NCAAs because many of the teams they play in the opening rounds are worse/the same than those they play during the regular season NESCAC games.
2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness", let's take a look at a team who joins one. Case in point- Hamilton College leaving the Liberty League in 2010 for the NESCAC 2011. Take a look at this perennial power from one of the "top tier" d3 soccer conferences in the country's record from 2004 to present:
2013: 5-7-3 NESCAC playoffs (lost first round)
2012: 4-8-2
2011: 5-6-3
JOINS NESCAC
2010: 9-3-3 Liberty League semifinalists
2009: 9-5-1 Liberty League semifinalists
2008: 8-6-0
2007: 10-5-3 Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
2006: 11-4-1 Liberty League regular season champions; league championship semifinalists; NCAA first round
2005: 9-5-1 Liberty League semifinalists
2004: 11-4-2 Liberty League tournament champions; NCAA second round
From being top of the conference year and in and year out to not even making the playoffs until this year, and that despite a losing record.
3) The reason the NESCAC continually gets 3 at large bids is due to the fact that it is comprised of excellent teams. The statement you made about struggling to make the playoffs if the NESCACs played in the MAC is laughable if not absolutely preposterous. How would the top of the MAC table would look with NESCAC teams inserted? I think that most here on these boards would not be surprised for it to finish like this..
Top tier
Tufts
Messiah
Amherst
Upper Middle tier
Williams
Middlebury
Bowdoin
Lower Middle tier
Wesleyan
Lycoming
Conn College
There are very few teams who wouldn't be considered a easy game for the top 6 or 7 NESCAC teams in the MAC. And the middle of the NESCAC would obliterate the middle of the MAC. I don't understand how you came to your conclusion? Additionally, if Messiah played in the NESCAC, they wouldn't have a single cupcake game in conference, save for maybe Bates? For example, they're not going to rest starters against Trinity like they can against Hood. Every game would be a battle.
In conclusion, I now understand your debate with J4J, and I should have done my due diligence to take a look at what was said prior. If one team decides a conference, then yes the MAC reigns supreme. However, in my opinon, one team does not a conference make, and the fact of the matter is- the NESCAC is the most competitive league in the country top to bottom. And if you disagree with me on that, then I think our friend Mr. Right might hit you with facts that I can only dream of unearthing ;)
And Tufts did beat Messiah this year...with The Giant Slayer Goal.....they may have made the playoffs this century....
D3W and OnionB,
First: I never proclaimed NESCAC the #1 conference.
Second: I appreciate your both taking time to pull together archived info. D3W, Messiah is one beacon in the MAC, indeed.
Third: Thanks, OB, for proving my point: NESCAC is ONE of the best. Actually, based on your research, I'm now inclined to believe it may be THE best! ;)
Just some history here... UAA has some stronger teams, but top-to-bottom I am still giving NJAC the edge over UAA for post-season performance.
NESCAC vs NJAC in NCAA TOURNAMENT:
2011: Rutgers-Camden 2, Wesleyan 1
2010: Middlebury 2, William Paterson 1
2006: Montclair St 1, Wesleyan 0
2002: Williams 4, Stockton 1
2000: Rowan 2, Williams 1
1999: Stockton 1, Williams 0 (ELITE 8)
1997: TCNJ 2, Amherst 1
Kean 5, Trinity 1.
Trinity 2, Ramapo 1.
1996: TCNJ 1, Williams 0 (OT) (ELITE 8) (TCNJ won title)
1995: Williams 3, TCNJ 0 (ELITE 8) (Williams won title)
NJAC Leads 7-4 in head to head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Six of 10 teams from the NJAC have made it to the Final 4 (2 in last 3 years). Five different teams have reached the title game and four different teams have won it: Rowan 2x, Stockton, Kean, TCNJ. (Finalists: '97 TCNJ, '00 Rowan, '13 Camden)
Five of now 11 teams from NESCAC have made it to the Final 4 (7 of last 8 years). Three have reached the title game won it: Williams, Middlebury, Tufts. (Finalists: Williams '93)
With 3 sometimes 4 teams in the same quadrant in tournament (see Bowdoin 2010, where 4 NESCAC teams were in same and Bowdoin had a bye)... you would expect one of those teams to make it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2014: TUFTS NATIONAL CHAMPION, Amherst Elite 8.
2013: RUTGERS-CAMDEN FINALIST; WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR
2012: WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR (SLU, Brandeis, Amherst, ONU)
2011: MONTCLAIR STATE FINAL FOUR (smashed by OWU)
2010: BOWDOIN FINAL FOUR (played all NESCAC teams until Final Four and lost to Lynchburg)
2009: WILLIAMS FINAL FOUR (Husson, Rensselaer, York, CNU, Smashed by Messiah; Amherst L to York in 32; Bowdoin L to Platt 1st rd; Wesleyan L to Roch in Swt16)
2008: AMHERST FINAL FOUR (Beat SLU, Swat, Trinity; Smashed by Stevens)
2007: MIDDLEBURY NATIONAL CHAMPION (York beat Amherst in PK; Middlebury beat York; PKs FINAL 4 over Loras and Trinity)
2001: STOCKTON NATIONAL CHAMPION
2000: ROWAN FINALIST
1998: Rowan and Williams lose in FINAL FOUR.
1997: TCNJ FINALIST (lost to Wheaton)
1996: TCNJ NATIONAL CHAMPIONS
1995: WILLIAMS NATIONAL CHAMPION
1994: TCNJ FINAL FOUR
1993: WILLIAMS FINALIST
1992: KEAN NATIONAL CHAMPION
1991: TCNJ FINALIST
The NJAC is still strong, but the NESCAC has taken over the past few years...
NESCAC is the top conference, and at worst top two. But can we reign things in just a little? I know Tufts mania is causing NESCAC mania, but let's not go too far overboard. Of course the NESCAC is far better/deeper than the MAC. That wasn't D3SW's point.
And Hamilton? Now we're basing the argument on Hamilton? Their record from '08 thru '10 looks pretty average. We're using conference semifinal appearances as a barometer? And then we go back to the mid-2000s and earlier? Are we sure those mid-2000 Hamilton teams would have finished at the bottom of NESCAC?
NESCAC often gets 4 bids. Last year they got 2, right? And just 3 this year. And other than one of you apparently picking Tufts as a darkhorse final four choice (that's a little different than actually picking Tufts to win the title, no?), nobody after conceding the draw to Bowdoin and losing to Conn College would have predicted a title. I think we can safely say most thought a good showing would be winning the two games at Wheaton and if things were going really well having a good chance against an offensively anemic Muhlenberg before bowing out to Messiah. Let's remember that before Kanye scores in the first minute against Messiah that the Falcons had just demolished a strong Cortland State team 6-0.
Anyway, certainly enjoy the moment and being on top, but let's hold off on the "best ever" comparisons and putting NESCAC in the Champions League.
One other thing while I await the expiration of the 24 hour period before getting my karma point for the day.
Does no one else here have an issue with posters offering judgments about players here with a negative tilt and broadcasting info that even if true seems rather private? Calling players "soft" or a top prep striker recruited by Williams and Brandeis who went to Tufts and "never panned out." Or suggesting where specific players did or not gain admittance or were or were not recruited by particular schools? There are some things many of us commented on in terms of things we actually observed (a heinous foul, GK antics, etc), and to that I plead guilty as charged, and maybe that stuff should be off limits too, I don't know. But, at any rate, am I really in the minority on this?
NCAC,
You're not alone. 1st off I have no issue with people calling a spade a spade in terms of bad fouls, bench antics, coach antics, etc. Those teams and coaches are putting themselves out there publicly when they do those things in games and any spectator who is present can call it how they see it.
I do have an issue specifically when people call players' academics into question. I'm too lazy to go back and dig it up but at 1 point I know there was argument about how 2 of the players on Kenyon didn't have grades to get into top NESCAC schools which I think is completely off limits. That information should never be shared in a forum such as this in my opinion.
So if you're in the minority, I'm in there with ya.
I would agree about making statements about grades and personal matters. I think it may be fine to say that someone didn't play that well in a particular game.....which could be done in a tasteful way or without really bashing a person...
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 09, 2014, 12:04:31 AMAsk all those those other Middle Atlantic Conference teams whose in the toughest conference in the country. Some of them, like Elizabethtown have even left the conference - it's that tough.
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 09, 2014, 09:52:11 AM2) Instead of looking at teams that leave a conference because of supposed "toughness"
Come on, people. You don't
really believe that Elizabethtown left the MAC for the Landmark because of the supposed toughness of the circuit's soccer, do you?
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 09, 2014, 04:59:00 PM
NCAC,
You're not alone. 1st off I have no issue with people calling a spade a spade in terms of bad fouls, bench antics, coach antics, etc. Those teams and coaches are putting themselves out there publicly when they do those things in games and any spectator who is present can call it how they see it.
I do have an issue specifically when people call players' academics into question. I'm too lazy to go back and dig it up but at 1 point I know there was argument about how 2 of the players on Kenyon didn't have grades to get into top NESCAC schools which I think is completely off limits. That information should never be shared in a forum such as this in my opinion.
So if you're in the minority, I'm in there with ya.
Spot on...in agreement.
Your continual attacks on me every day is earning you your negative karma points. Nothing else. I post interesting, truthful and opinionated stuff. Some sites that cover college soccer are much worse than whatever I write. I do not force you to read what I write and I do not complain about the dribble you post. Please if you do not like what I post do not read it and then you squares will not have a problem. In your world this site would be boring and vanilla.
It is almost like your opinions are fine but my opinions are problematic. You have nothing to write about except to attack my posts. Who is the child now? Jealously is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2014, 07:10:41 PM
Your continual attacks on me every day is earning you your negative karma points. Nothing else. I post interesting, truthful and opinionated stuff. Some sites that cover college soccer are much worse than whatever I write. I do not force you to read what I write and I do not complain about the dribble you post. Please if you do not like what I post do not read it and then you squares will not have a problem. In your world this site would be boring and vanilla.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2014, 07:17:38 PM
It is almost like your opinions are fine but my opinions are problematic. You have nothing to write about except to attack my posts. Who is the child now? Jealously is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity.
The word you seek is "drivel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drivel?s=t)," not "dribble."
Also, I think that you meant "envy" rather than "jealously" [sic] in your last sentence.
;) ;D
Looks like you hit up the whole gang. I suspect most would disagree that I have provided nothing. The issue with you is that once you feel tweaked the feeling apparently burns inside you forever. The perceived wound never heals.
Bottom line. You shouldn't be blabbering about others' private business, and not only because you present it as authoritative when at best it almost certainly is distorted at best and plainly false at worst. But you do it to feed your perception of yourself as the go-to D3 soccer guy, and then you feel bolstered when you briefly win over a few sycophants who make things worse by treating you as some vessel of extra-special information.
BTW, you might have noticed, to use your standards, that this is "my thread." I started it. Seems like it's worked out OK. I have refrained from posting on "yours."
My posts are truthful and factual not distorted. I am glad you are calling other people on this board "sycophants". They appreciate this. The fact is you add nothing interesting or original. Get off my back and I will be happy to ignore you.
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 08, 2014, 12:47:19 PM
Pretty classy move by both programs here after the game. That's what it's about! Kudos.
(Last two pics)
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/galleries/?gallery=104
Couldn't agree with you more. After such a battle...such a show of class from both teams. That's what D3 sports are all about. I'm very proud of how this level of sportsmanship represents both schools so well.
I could be wrong but I think the circle up with the opposing team at the end of games is standard operating procedure for most or all strongly religious-affiliated schools.
No, NCAC NE, it isn't.
Wheaton has made this SOP for quite a few years. Over the years I have heard a few teams that thought it was maybe a bit disingenuous for a teams to want to pray with you after they spent the last 90 minutes f bombing and throwing elbows in your back when the official turns away.
Does anyone understand how Trinity Connecticut made the end-of-year top 25? (at number 23)
Wheaton is total class!!!!
Pure and Simple
Quote from: SoccerFollower on December 10, 2014, 07:53:10 PM
Does anyone understand how Trinity Connecticut made the end-of-year top 25? (at number 23)
The Trinity Men's soccer team for2014? They didn't even make the NESCAC playoffs.....must be a mistake or joke.
Quote from: All NESCAC on December 10, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: SoccerFollower on December 10, 2014, 07:53:10 PM
Does anyone understand how Trinity Connecticut made the end-of-year top 25? (at number 23)
The Trinity Men's soccer team for2014? They didn't even make the NESCAC playoffs.....must be a mistake or joke.
Would that be Trinity in texas?
Trinity Texas is on there too at #8!
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
I could be wrong but I think the circle up with the opposing team at the end of games is standard operating procedure for most or all strongly religious-affiliated schools.
I've seen Wheaton do this at every game I've been at over the past several years. Grove City College also does this at all their games. Messiah College does not.
After losing the national final I think this shows a lot of class and dignity on Wheaton's part. And I don't know if this is something Tufts is really into, but also classy move on their part to honor and respect their opponent by everyone on the team participating. Class all around. Well done by all.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 10, 2014, 11:31:30 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
I could be wrong but I think the circle up with the opposing team at the end of games is standard operating procedure for most or all strongly religious-affiliated schools.
I've seen Wheaton do this at every game I've been at over the past several years. Grove City College also does this at all their games. Messiah College does not.
After losing the national final I think this shows a lot of class and dignity on Wheaton's part. And I don't know if this is something Tufts is really into, but also classy move on their part to honor and respect their opponent by everyone on the team participating. Class all around. Well done by all.
Well sai D3!
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 10, 2014, 11:31:30 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
I could be wrong but I think the circle up with the opposing team at the end of games is standard operating procedure for most or all strongly religious-affiliated schools.
I've seen Wheaton do this at every game I've been at over the past several years. Grove City College also does this at all their games. Messiah College does not.
After losing the national final I think this shows a lot of class and dignity on Wheaton's part. And I don't know if this is something Tufts is really into, but also classy move on their part to honor and respect their opponent by everyone on the team participating. Class all around. Well done by all.
Yes, very well stated!
Looked at the NSCAA All-Region teams. We know there can seem be little rhyme or reason for some of the picks, but glaring omissions in Great Lakes Region in my view are Carney from Kenyon (can't imagine a stronger left back in the region), Clougher from Kenyon (top GK stats in the nation most of the year), and Austin Juniet from Thomas More (4-5 Thomas More players made it but not him and he was one of the best players I saw all year long). Interestingly, Amolo only made honorable mention for NCAC but is a 1st team All-Region selection. Maybe somewhere in the middle there is a little more accurate.
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 11, 2014, 02:00:16 PM
Looked at the NSCAA All-Region teams. We know there can seem be little rhyme or reason for some of the picks, but glaring omissions in my view are Carney from Kenyon (can't imagine a stronger left back in the region), Clougher from Kenyon (top GK stats in the nation most of the year), and Austin Juniet from Thomas More (4-5 Thomas More players made it but not him and he was one of the best players I saw all year long). Interestingly, Amolo only made honorable mention for NCAC but is a 1st team All-Region selection. Maybe somewhere in the middle there is a little more accurate.
Yes, there are some glaring omissions. The voting happens before the tourney which I think is a mistake also.....
Agreed BF. Look at our national champions in Tufts- just 2 players on all region teams (and one is 4th team, Hoppenot). Williams is deserving of 1st team. I think Kayne or Santos could be 1st (maybe 2nd) team, as well. Keeper Greenwood was OUTSTANDING the entire year, as was the other CB, Peter Kramer, and could both be recognized on 2nd or 3rd team. Heck, even Connor Brown and Rui Pinherio were deserving of 3rd or 4th team, IMHO. Really think it's a shame they were all left off. Voting should take place after the tournament.
As someone who ended up watching a lot of Tufts games by default thru NESCAC and the tournament, I'm surprised they only had two players make it.
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 11, 2014, 03:42:56 PM
Agreed BF. Look at our national champions in Tufts- just 2 players on all region teams (and one is 4th team, Hoppenot). Williams is deserving of 1st team. I think Kayne or Santos could be 1st (maybe 2nd) team, as well. Keeper Greenwood was OUTSTANDING the entire year, as was the other CB, Peter Kramer, and could both be recognized on 2nd or 3rd team. Heck, even Connor Brown and Rui Pinherio were deserving of 3rd or 4th team, IMHO. Really think it's a shame they were all left off. Voting should take place after the tournament.
As someone who ended up watching a lot of Tufts games by default thru NESCAC and the tournament, I'm surprised they only had two players make it.
..
Spot on... I just posted this in another topic on this:
I think this voting occurs pretty early. Wish it took place after the NCAA tourney. I would like to have seen a few more from Tufts since they won the NCAA, like Kayne, Santos, Kramer, Brown, or Pinheiro, etc......
Oh, I forgot Greenwood..a pivotal link in Tufts championship.... Yes Kayne and/or Santos should have been on first team (both for NESCAC and All-Region), given Tufts success. Some weight should go into the choices if you are National Champs or make it far into the tourney. It's an extremely hard feat to accomplish....and I say this without taking away from the other choices. I watched the Tufts OWU game on the computer and the Tufts midfield completely handled the OWU midfield and its all-american....and did well against Wheaton's midfield who had 2 all-americans.....
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 10, 2014, 11:31:30 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 09, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
I could be wrong but I think the circle up with the opposing team at the end of games is standard operating procedure for most or all strongly religious-affiliated schools.
I've seen Wheaton do this at every game I've been at over the past several years. Grove City College also does this at all their games. Messiah College does not.
North Park doesn't do it, either. We could discuss the pros and cons of why some evangelical Christian schools have their sports teams offer a postgame prayer in the middle of the field or court after a game (whether for one team or both teams) and why some don't, but it's probably not a discussion that would interest most people.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 11, 2014, 04:25:46 PM
Oh, I forgot Greenwood..a pivotal link in Tufts championship.... Yes Kayne and/or Santos should have been on first team (both for NESCAC and All-Region), given Tufts success. Some weight should go into the choices if you are National Champs or make it far into the tourney. It's an extremely hard feat to accomplish....and I say this without taking away from the other choices. I watched the Tufts OWU game on the computer and the Tufts midfield completely handled the OWU midfield and its all-american....and did well against Wheaton's midfield who had 2 all-americans.....
I would tend to agree with this....
Anyone know who gets to vote for the NSCAA picks? Appears to be done by coaches, but does each school get a vote? Do all coaches actually vote?
Unsure who picks the regional teams but I'm floored that Greenwood from Tufts doesn't even make the top four teams. Who are these judges?
Coaches pick and sometimes not all coaches vote or coaches in a very weak league will all vote for a player that is considered a star in their league but very average everywhere else
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2014, 09:10:19 PM
Coaches pick and sometimes not all coaches vote or coaches in a very weak league will all vote for a player that is considered a star in their league but very average everywhere else
Sounds like a popularity contest as opposed to merit.... As mentioned above, they should vote after the tourney....
All-American teams are out.
First Team
Pos Name Class School Hometown
K Matt Cardone* Sr. Trinity (Texas) San Antonio, Texas
D Harry Copeland Jr. St. Lawrence Dedham, Mass.
D Bill Kerr So Lycoming Bowie, Md.
D Carter Robbins* Sr. Messiah Randleman, N.C.
M Logan Andryk ** Jr. Milwaukee Engineering Hartland, Wis.
M Luke Finklestein Sr. Wheaton (Mass.) Peabody, Mass.
M Marshall Hollingsworth* Jr. Wheaton (Ill.) Libertyville, Ill.
M Dylan Williams Jr. SUNY Oneonta Monroe, N.Y.
F Jeremy Payne** Sr. Messiah Middleburg, Pa.
F Michael Ramos Sr. Whitworth Spokane, Wash.
F Tyler Savonen Sr. Brandeis Orleans, Mass.
F Travis Vegter* Sr. Calvin Hudsonville, Mich.
Second Team
Pos First Class School Hometown
K Richard Burns Sr. United States Coast Guard Academy Long Beach, Calif.
D Matthew Bray Sr. Whitworth Spokane, Wash.
D Tom Carwile Jr. Trinity (Texas) Tulsa, Okla.
D Conor Lanahan Jr. Brandeis Avon, Conn.
D Daniel Peckham Jr. SUNY Morrisville Webster, N.Y.
M Colton Bloecher* Sr. Ohio Wesleyan Lewis Center, Ohio
M Elliot Borge Jr. Wheaton (Ill.) Western Springs, Ill.
M Caleb Cole So Gordon Coatesville, Pa.
M Marc Dinkel Sr. Roanoke Basel, Switzerland
F Raphael Araujo Sr. Rutgers-Newark North Plainfield, N.J.
F Jalon Brown** Sr. Christopher Newport Yorktown, Va.
F Eric Giovagnoli Sr. Eastern (Pa.) Royersford, Pa.
F Bastian Jedliczka Jr. Birmingham-Southern Furstenfeld, Austria
F Jake Sutherland Jr. SUNY Oneonta Syracuse, N.Y.
F Lucas Terci* Jr. Montclair State Union, N.J.
Third Team
Pos First Class School Hometown
K Niko Giantsopoulos Jr. Calvin Markham, Ont.
D Sean Broekhuizen Sr. Calvin Grand Rapids, Miich.
D Ben Bratt Sr. Wesleyan Winchester, Mass.
D Alex Dean Sr. Thomas More Fort Thomas, Ky.
D Samuel Justice Sr. Kenyon Dexter, Mich.
D Sam Williams Sr. Tufts Thetford Center, Vt.
M Adam Beek Sr. Skidmore Kingston, Jamaica
M Lance Dotzman Sr. Muhlenberg Holland, Pa.
M Justin Laurenzo Sr. Babson Park Ridge, N.J.
M David Lilly Sr. Gustavus Adolphus Maple Grove, Minn.
F Anthony Amolo So Kenyon Lagos, Nigeria
F Travis Blair Sr. Wheaton (Mass.) Hastings, N.Y.
F Greg Conrad So Middlebury Peabody, Mass.
F Stephen Golz Jr. Wheaton (Ill.) River Forest, Ill.
F Daniel Nadeau Sr. Wartburg White Bear Lake, Minn.
I know some people might have qualms with Finkelstein making first-team, but I personally think he deserves it. Massively underrated player who really made everything tick for a good Wheaton side. Glad to see him get some recognition.
Also happy for Savonen of Brandeis, who works tirelessly and was the focal point of a fearsome attack. Got better every season. He'll be a big hole for the Judges to fill, but they return Lanahan at the back, who was a second-teamer. For me, Lanahan is the top CB in New England, and a major reason why the Judges did so well this season.
I have already voiced my disappointment that Santos wasn't in the running for All-American, but glad that Sam Williams was recognized. Top defender. I know I said Laurenzo shouldn't have been first team All-NE, but, in hindsight, 14 goals (many in big games) is very impressive and deserving of a third-team spot, as is Travis Blair's place.
Newmac is over represented just a tad. Did Nescac coaches get the memo to vote.
My biggest qualm is the Nescac POY has always been a 1st r 2nd teamer.
"Did Nescac coaches get the memo to vote."
That's a funny one! ::)
Shapiro wins COY
http://gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/coach_of_the_year
Quote from: oldonionbag on December 16, 2014, 03:01:23 PM
Shapiro wins COY
http://gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/2014-15/releases/coach_of_the_year
No surprise there...Certainly well deserved. Congrats.
It will also be interesting to see how he fares next year with some players lost to graduation. I think he will do well
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Jeremy Payne wins his second NSCAA POY, but I think his best season was the one in between when he didn't win the award. Funny that. And as happy I am for him as a Messiah fan, I am equally disappointed (and dumbfounded) that Jack Thompson was never once named All-American by the NSCAA.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 18, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Ramirez is a great player but a step slow
Here's a link to NSCAA Scholar All-Americans. I would really like to know how these kind of teams get picked. There are players in the 3.4s and 3.3s on these teams, some with what appear to be less than strenuous majors. Brandeis (and I am a big Brandeis fan) get two on the first team and OWU gets two (one on 1st and one on 3rd). Kenyon gets one on the 2nd team, and none of several others well over 3.7+ get on. My NESCAC friends will see that there is only one NESCAC selection, Bratt from Wesleyan on the first team, which seems unfathomable. There must be some coaches with a ton of pull. There are a couple of schools that never fail to get more than their fair share on all of these various accolade teams.
http://www.nscaa.com/awards/2014-mens-scholar-all-america-teams--college-
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 18, 2014, 09:24:41 PM
Here's a link to NSCAA Scholar All-Americans. I would really like to know how these kind of teams get picked. There are players in the 3.4s and 3.3s on these teams, some with what appear to be less than strenuous majors. Brandeis (and I am a big Brandeis fan) get two on the first team and OWU gets two (one on 1st and one on 3rd). Kenyon gets one on the 2nd team, and none of several others well over 3.7+ get on. My NESCAC friends will see that there is only one NESCAC selection, Bratt from Wesleyan on the first team, which seems unfathomable. There must be some coaches with a ton of pull. There are a couple of schools that never fail to get more than their fair share on all of these various accolade teams.
http://www.nscaa.com/awards/2014-mens-scholar-all-america-teams--college-
This is pure speculation, but I think, seeing as how it's voted on, individual name recognition and school recognition have to go a long way toward determining who makes these teams. So it's all fine and dandy for Player X to have a 3.9 in a math major at a tough school (I'd love to meet that person, by the way), but if none of the coaches who played against him even remember who he is it's hard to see how he's going to get enough votes to keep advancing all the way to All-American status.
Just looking at the first team, you have five actual All-Americans - Vegter, Bloecher, Williams, Lanahan, Savonen - and the highest GPA between them is 3.71. And all five come from teams that made it past the first round of the NCAA tournament. That's not to take anything away from them, at all, but it does provide evidence that GPA is not the sole factor. Which means that ability and/or reputation plays a major role. Add in that all colleges and all majors are not created equal (or so I told my sports management buddies while slaving through upper-level math courses), and GPA isn't a great universal stat for comparison either.
It's an imperfect system, but kind of goes the same way as the actual All-American teams. Scoring 25 goals in a weak conference against a bum schedule is the equivalent of somebody having a really, really good GPA that is either barely known as a player or is up against somebody from a team with better name recognition.
The last part, and the best way for someone who isn't maybe as well-recognized, is that these are teams where you have to get your name on the regional teams, etc. earlier in your career. I think that's probably just another way to build name recognition but you don't see a single sophomore on any of the three teams and a vast majority are seniors. If you consistently show up from sophomore or junior year onward on some of these teams then people recognize your name when you pop up and it's easier to get votes.
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Nobody has won it twice:
1996-Brad Murray, Williams
1997-Jason Cairns, TCNJ
1998-Robert Mouw, Wheaton (IL)
1999-Dan Annan, St. Lawrence
2000-Scott Deopere, Wis.-Oshkosh
2001-Alex Blake, Williams
2002-Hayden Woodworth, Messiah
2003-Josh Smith, Trinity (TX)
2004-Patrick McGinnis, Colorado Col.
2005-David McClellan, Messiah
2006-Dana Leary, Williams
2007-Kai Kasiguran, Messiah
2008-J.D. Binger, Messiah
2009-Jon Ports, York (PA)
2010-Geoff Pezon, Messiah
2011-Travis Wall, Ohio Wesleyan
2012-Jeremy Payne, Messiah
2013-Joshua Wood, Messiah
2014-Jeremy Payne, Messiah
Since the beginning of the Award in 1996, six of the ten POY from conferences (two were from independent schools) were not conference POY. (Posted by Flying Weasel in 2009 in another forum)...
2013 NSCAA National Player of the Year: Joshua Wood, Messiah
2013 Commonwealth Conference Player of the Year: Jeremy Payne, Messiah (Offensive POY), Carter Robbins, Messiah (Defensive POY)
2010 NSCAA National Player of the Year: Geoff Pezon, Messiah
2010 Commonwealth Conference Player of the Year: Nick Thompson, Messiah
2006 NSCAA National Player of the Year: Dana Leary, Williams
2006 NESCAC Conference Player of the Year: Patrick Huffer, Williams
2005 NSCAA National Player of the Year: David McClellan, Messiah
2005 Commonwealth Conference Player of the Year: Kai Kasiguran, Messiah
2002 NSCAA National Player of the Year: Hayden Woodworth, Messiah
2002 Commonwealth Conference Player of the Year: Matt Bills, Messiah
1998 NSCAA National Player of the Year: Rob Mouw, Wheaton (Ill.)
1998 CCIW Conference Player of the Year: Eric Brown, Wheaton (Ill.)
I know all the Williams guys but want to give a shout out to Jason Cairns from TCNJ rrr Trenton St. He was a physical presence up top with a nose for the goal. He had tremendous speed and skill.
For 2015 early POY candidates, Mr. Right style:
Marshall Hollingsworth, Wheaton (Ill.) 5/1
Nico Pascual-Leone, Amherst 15/1
Steven Golz, Wheaton (Ill.) 15/1
Lucas Terci, Montclair St 25/1
Greg Conrad, Middlebury 25/1
Mike Ryan, Rutgers-Camden 25/1
Tony Amolo, Kenyon 25/1
Johnny Rummelhart, Loras 30/1 (is he returning in 2015, Kickin?)
Peter Lee-Kramer, Tufts 30/1 (if he returns)
Tom Carwile, Trinity 40/1
Danny Brandt, Messiah 40/1
Field 2/1
Just a brief comment in response to Ryan, who notes (rightly) that if you aren't really noticed on the field your GPA isn't going to do it for you, when it comes to being named to "all-academic" teams. No one from Messiah was named to any of the academic AA teams, and I'm not suggesting that this was an oversight. If any Falcon had been named, however, perhaps it would have been Nathan Eagan: http://gomessiah.com/news/2013/12/5/MSOC_1205134706.aspx?path=msoc
That was 2013, and this is 2014, but I doubt the academic side of the picture has changed very much, if at all. Nathan (http://gomessiah.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=3830&path=msoc) played outside defender in all of Messiah's games, but started just 5 of them when other players were hurt.
Wheaton's Jordan Golz won the award this year--fully deserved, no doubt. http://www.ncaa.com/elite-89
I have heard from very reliable sources that Danny Brandt wants out of Messiah. He wants D1 soccer and plans to transfer. Please if my information is wrong correct me
Ill take Mike Ryan and Greg Conrad at 25/1...500 on the field
RH and Falconer, the problem is that the analysis offered only gets at some of the results for academic all-americans. Where are the Golz brothers on the NSCAA list? They are well know and with very high GPAs. If you took all fairly well known players from known programs with high GPAs who made at least regional NSCAA and/or all conference teams you still would find a bunch of names that didn't make the list and that would raise doubts about some of the choices. It's a very flawed method, but as long as people go to the trouble to have these accolades they should try to have some method that is a little better IMHO. The other thing that doesn't fit is that in fact there are quite a few selections from lesser known and weaker programs. And RH, Justice is the 3.9 math major you are looking for.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 19, 2014, 04:21:52 PM
For 2015 early POY candidates, Mr. Right style:
Marshall Hollingsworth, Wheaton (Ill.) 5/1
Nico Pascual-Leone, Amherst 15/1
Steven Golz, Wheaton (Ill.) 15/1
Lucas Terci, Montclair St 25/1
Greg Conrad, Middlebury 25/1
Mike Ryan, Rutgers-Camden 25/1
Tony Amolo, Kenyon 25/1
Johnny Rummelhart, Loras 30/1 (is he returning in 2015, Kickin?)
Peter Lee-Kramer, Tufts 30/1 (if he returns)
Tom Carwile, Trinity 40/1
Danny Brandt, Messiah 40/1
Field 2/1
I would assume that forwards have the advantage since scoring goals is a statistic most look at. In that case, Hollingsworth, who is a great player may not get it as he does much on the field but does not score a ton. Unfortunately, all around players or playmakers are sometimes overlooked. The same applies to Kayne and Brown at Tufts...Excellent all-around players and tempo makers. The same holds true for defenders. What is the chance a goaltender could win? So, I look to a forward to win most likely.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 19, 2014, 05:00:35 PM
I have heard from very reliable sources that Danny Brandt wants out of Messiah. He wants D1 soccer and plans to transfer. Please if my information is wrong correct me
That's the first we've heard any kind of conjecture like that. Just how "reliable" are those sources.
pretty reliable...find out if he has requested his papers...based on my source and my hunch I am giving it a 80% chance of being true
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 19, 2014, 09:07:04 PM
pretty reliable...find out if he has requested his papers...based on my source and my hunch I am giving it a 80% chance of being true
If that is "true. What do you think that means to the program?
Rummelhart will be returning. I George Foreman Guarantee it!
Quote from: NCAC New England on December 19, 2014, 05:44:45 PM
And RH, Justice is the 3.9 math major you are looking for.
Ah, how did I whiff on that? Very, very impressive - any idea what he's doing post-graduation?
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 19, 2014, 09:11:18 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 19, 2014, 09:07:04 PM
pretty reliable...find out if he has requested his papers...based on my source and my hunch I am giving it a 80% chance of being true
If that is "true. What do you think that means to the program?
Means nothing - if we've learned anything about that program over the last 15 years it's that it isn't driven by individual stars, so losing a player - no matter how talented - won't have an impact
I have also heard through reliable sources that it's not just a rumor. I know Messiah doesn't "rebuild" but that's what? 6-7 starters moving on? All of them fantastic players....3-4 them all time greats for the program. Could Messiah's dominance be fraying just a bit at the edges? It had to ebb at some point?
Will Messiah be the prohibitive favorite again this coming year or will we have more parity?
It should have an impact considering they are also losing most likely their best class ever (86-3-5 with 2 NCAA titles); Payne, JT, Robbins, Ramirez, Kovach, and West.
Odds on the Falcons having more losses in 2015 than 2011-2014 combined... 15/1.
Not knowing the schedule... I'd project an early loss, one during the mid-season tough stretch, and then NCAA Sweet 16...
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 20, 2014, 02:42:04 PM
It should have an impact considering they are also losing most likely their best class ever (86-3-5 with 2 NCAA titles); Payne, JT, Robbins, Ramirez, Kovach, and West.
Odds on the Falcons having more losses in 2015 than 2011-2014 combined... 15/1.
Not knowing the schedule... I'd project an early loss, one during the mid-season tough stretch, and then NCAA Sweet 16...
True - they will be without 10 of the 11 starters that took the field against R-Camden in the 2013 final so 2015 was going to be a re-building year anyway. They will be very young next year and their performance will depend partly on how big of a leap next year's sophomores make in the off-season. The last time they were in a similar situation, we saw the emergence of those 6 listed above as sophomores themselves in 2012. And that ended in an undefeated season and 5-1 over Ohio Northern in the final. I'm certainly not saying that will happen again in 2015, but they will be fine - it may just take a year to get back to the level they were at the last few years
Mr.Right has excellent sources....I knew it was legitimate when I heard Brandt was transferring. With the seniors + Brandt moving on next year it will be a challenge for McCarty for sure. We can finally see maybe McCarty cut his chops and produce either his finest coaching job or have his weaknesses come and show out of nowhere.
Mr Right...so are you saying the rumor you started is now 100% confirmed.
Also not sure what you are trying to say about McCarty???
I am saying that Brandt is history and maybe we can see how good McCarty is without the best players in the country. How will the team react to maybe a couple of losses? What will the morale be like and how will McCarty lead these young men after some losses.
Interesting that Brandt needs two years to figure out he wants D1 over the Messiah dynasty. He will most likely fade into oblivion at an ACC school, if that is where he is going
If he's going to an ACC school, we'll see how special he really is. Cant think of a tougher conference.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 20, 2014, 02:42:04 PM
It should have an impact considering they are also losing most likely their best class ever (86-3-5 with 2 NCAA titles); Payne, JT, Robbins, Ramirez, Kovach, and West.
Odds on the Falcons having more losses in 2015 than 2011-2014 combined... 15/1.
Not knowing the schedule... I'd project an early loss, one during the mid-season tough stretch, and then NCAA Sweet 16...
I am sure Messiah will still be worthy. They always have good recruits. I wouldn't count them out at this stage.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 20, 2014, 08:17:47 PM
I am saying that Brandt is history and maybe we can see how good McCarty is without the best players in the country. How will the team react to maybe a couple of losses? What will the morale be like and how will McCarty lead these young men after some losses.
Interesting that Brandt needs two years to figure out he wants D1 over the Messiah dynasty. He will most likely fade into oblivion at an ACC school, if that is where he is going
Yes, the ACC is a giant leap. There are many D3 players who can play for various D1 teams, however, schools in the ACC present a challenge.
Merry Christmas, boys! Was hoping Santa would drop the d3soccer all American selections. Maybe soon
Danny Brandt to Louisville
Told Ya
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 25, 2014, 03:58:03 PM
Merry Christmas, boys! Was hoping Santa would drop the d3soccer all American selections. Maybe soon
Happy Holiday to you all!
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2014, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 18, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Ramirez is a great player but a step slow
Mr.Right,
The Phila Union brought 30 college players of their choice to their invitation only Pro-Combine two weeks ago. Just a few of those invited were D3 players (Ramirez was one of them). I suppose they went out of their way to select the one player who is "a step slow" for D3. Mr.Right...give me a break. I know you think your opinion is always right and always above everyone else's...but I'm going with the Union's opinion on this one. They obviously know something you don't.
Do your homework, research the data, understand the facts before you start dissing players and coaches...as you so love to do on this site.
D3SW,
Do you have links on those invited to the Union Combine?
Back to Messiah...
Losing almost the entire front 6, Robbins, and West... it will be interesting to see how McCarty schedules opponents for next season to prep for the NCAAs as the MACC should be theirs for the taking. Does anyone from Messiah want to divulge where Messiah is going for the opening weekend this year? Playing Oneonta St again early? Do they still keep Dickinson and MSU?
I don't have a list of players at the combine but do know that Ramirez was one of them and that the thoughts were that he showed well.
As for Messiah...you are quite correct...a lot of BIG shoes to fill across the mid and front. They certainly showed some promising young players this year. And Messiah seems to know how to develop and get the most out of their players. I'd also expect to see another strong recruiting class this year, which I believe Falconer has said is already complete.
Messiah didn't announce their Fall 2014 season until mid-May this year. So I am guessing the 2015 season is still under construction to some degree and would expect a similarly timed announcement next year.
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 29, 2014, 02:38:00 PM
I don't have a list of players at the combine but do know that Ramirez was one of them and that the thoughts were that he showed well.
As for Messiah...you are quite correct...a lot of BIG shoes to fill across the mid and front. They certainly showed some promising young players this year. And Messiah seems to know how to develop and get the most out of their players. I'd also expect to see another strong recruiting class this year, which I believe Falconer has said is already complete.
Messiah didn't announce their Fall 2014 season until mid-May this year. So I am guessing the 2015 season is still under construction to some degree and would expect a similarly timed announcement next year.
Their 2015 schedule is set and has been published internally. Looks somewhat similar to prior years although Montclaire and Dickinson drop off and Carnegie Mellon was added.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on December 29, 2014, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 29, 2014, 02:38:00 PM
I don't have a list of players at the combine but do know that Ramirez was one of them and that the thoughts were that he showed well.
As for Messiah...you are quite correct...a lot of BIG shoes to fill across the mid and front. They certainly showed some promising young players this year. And Messiah seems to know how to develop and get the most out of their players. I'd also expect to see another strong recruiting class this year, which I believe Falconer has said is already complete.
Messiah didn't announce their Fall 2014 season until mid-May this year. So I am guessing the 2015 season is still under construction to some degree and would expect a similarly timed announcement next year.
Their 2015 schedule is set and has been published internally. Looks somewhat similar to prior years although Montclaire and Dickinson drop off and Carnegie Mellon was added.
Thanks KnightFalcon!!! Just curious if there is any way to get a sneak peek at that schedule?
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 29, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2014, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 18, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Ramirez is a great player but a step slow
Mr.Right,
The Phila Union brought 30 college players of their choice to their invitation only Pro-Combine two weeks ago. Just a few of those invited were D3 players (Ramirez was one of them). I suppose they went out of their way to select the one player who is "a step slow" for D3. Mr.Right...give me a break. I know you think your opinion is always right and always above everyone else's...but I'm going with the Union's opinion on this one. They obviously know something you don't.
Do your homework, research the data, understand the facts before you start dissing players and coaches...as you so love to do on this site.
I said Ramirez is a great player. One slight might be that he is not a speedster. If your "data" is telling you that Ramirez is blazing fast then you need to REBOOT. Take off your Messiah shaded glasses and learn even the best players have a weakness or two. It is not uncommon for MLS teams to invite local D3 players to their "invitation" only combine. Ramirez IS NOT A MLS PLAYER AND WILL NOT SEE A MINUTE OF 1ST TEAM ACTION. At best he is a reserve team player as he DOES NOT HAVE THE SPEED TO PLAY IN MLS.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 30, 2014, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 29, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2014, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 18, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Ramirez is a great player but a step slow
Mr.Right,
The Phila Union brought 30 college players of their choice to their invitation only Pro-Combine two weeks ago. Just a few of those invited were D3 players (Ramirez was one of them). I suppose they went out of their way to select the one player who is "a step slow" for D3. Mr.Right...give me a break. I know you think your opinion is always right and always above everyone else's...but I'm going with the Union's opinion on this one. They obviously know something you don't.
Do your homework, research the data, understand the facts before you start dissing players and coaches...as you so love to do on this site.
I said Ramirez is a great player. One slight might be that he is not a speedster. If your "data" is telling you that Ramirez is blazing fast then you need to REBOOT. Take off your Messiah shaded glasses and learn even the best players have a weakness or two. It is not uncommon for MLS teams to invite local D3 players to their "invitation" only combine. Ramirez IS NOT A MLS PLAYER AND WILL NOT SEE A MINUTE OF 1ST TEAM ACTION. At best he is a reserve team player as he DOES NOT HAVE THE SPEED TO PLAY IN MLS.
No doubt Ramirez and Thompson should have been A.A. first team selections. And I think Ramirez has the technical and play making ability to play in the MLS. Speed may be in issue but speed isnt as important as you would think playing in the middle. Harrison Shipp of the Chicago Fire was up for Rookie of the year and was a Herman Trophy finalist. I wouldnt say he has blazing speed.
I agree that Ramirez probably wont see a minute of MLS time but you never know. I think he was one of the top 8 players in Div III. Div III guys just dont get looks like others do so he really has to show something at the combine, which he is more than capable of doing.
Ramirez only played in 3 PDL games and had 2 assists. Any reason why he didn't get more action?
http://www.uslpdl.com/teams/2014/42834755.html#STATS
Sometimes it is job commitments or maybe a tweak of an injury. Who knows...
My favorite team is Real Boston Rams. Nice mix of D1 and D3 New England talent, Some serious skill on this side
Rashid-Williams
Zeiko-Berkshire School / Boston College
Sam Williams- Tufts
Machado- Providence College / REVS
Hoppenot-Tufs
Finklestein-Wheaton MA
Arboleda-Providence
Anderson-Babson grad
etc etc
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 30, 2014, 05:01:54 PM
Ramirez only played in 3 PDL games and had 2 assists. Any reason why he didn't get more action?
http://www.uslpdl.com/teams/2014/42834755.html#STATS
Believe he had other commitments throughout the summer, such as a mission trip at the start of the season, that limited his availability
Quote from: PickettStreetParty on December 30, 2014, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 30, 2014, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 29, 2014, 02:17:25 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2014, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on December 18, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: Midwest Soccer on December 18, 2014, 03:40:04 PM
After much speculation about who would get National POY, it goes to Jeremy Payne for the 2nd time in his Messiah Career. Probably the most deserving (in my opinion), I didn't think his award in 2012 was as warranted as only a sophomore but he definitely earned it this year.
Travis Vegter was my pick since the middle of the year. Congrats Jeremy Payne. I wonder how many people have won this award twice in their careers?!
*Jack Thompson didn't make 1st team All-Region, but I think many of us would agree he was the catalyst for the team. I'm nominating Thompson for d3boards.com men's soccer national player of the year!
Brian Ramirez wasn't too shabby either as far as a catalyst goes.....
Ramirez is a great player but a step slow
Mr.Right,
The Phila Union brought 30 college players of their choice to their invitation only Pro-Combine two weeks ago. Just a few of those invited were D3 players (Ramirez was one of them). I suppose they went out of their way to select the one player who is "a step slow" for D3. Mr.Right…give me a break. I know you think your opinion is always right and always above everyone else's…but I'm going with the Union's opinion on this one. They obviously know something you don't.
Do your homework, research the data, understand the facts before you start dissing players and coaches…as you so love to do on this site.
I said Ramirez is a great player. One slight might be that he is not a speedster. If your "data" is telling you that Ramirez is blazing fast then you need to REBOOT. Take off your Messiah shaded glasses and learn even the best players have a weakness or two. It is not uncommon for MLS teams to invite local D3 players to their "invitation" only combine. Ramirez IS NOT A MLS PLAYER AND WILL NOT SEE A MINUTE OF 1ST TEAM ACTION. At best he is a reserve team player as he DOES NOT HAVE THE SPEED TO PLAY IN MLS.
No doubt Ramirez and Thompson should have been A.A. first team selections. And I think Ramirez has the technical and play making ability to play in the MLS. Speed may be in issue but speed isnt as important as you would think playing in the middle. Harrison Shipp of the Chicago Fire was up for Rookie of the year and was a Herman Trophy finalist. I wouldnt say he has blazing speed.
I agree that Ramirez probably wont see a minute of MLS time but you never know. I think he was one of the top 8 players in Div III. Div III guys just dont get looks like others do so he really has to show something at the combine, which he is more than capable of doing.
A top 8 player in D3 won't cut it, not even for the USL Pro level.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you attend any PDL games in the summer, Mr. Right? I follow twitter often and the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup... always good to see the lower level teams try to knock off the big boys.
I know it's predominantly D1 and D2 with a sprinkle of D3 players, but I wonder if there are D3 coaches that take over PDL teams in the summer other than Dave Castellanos from PSU-Abington (recently took over Reading United) and Oz from Rutgers-Camden (Ocean City Nor'easters - 2 seasons so far).
Yes I try to catch as many PDL games as possible in the summer because of the nice weather and good players. It gets me juiced for the season. I believe coaches that get involved in it do it for some xtra cash and they love to coach. It also can get their name out there with the players and thru word of mouth as players love to talk. In New England not to many head coaches do it but I know Curry College Head coach and a former Tufts assistant coach are head coaches in the league.
Just to clarify in terms of references in threads to the various hardships on the NESCAC schools relative to other teams and conferences....ALL of them are self-imposed. Certainly nothing that other teams and conferences should have to apologize about.
Another question. In years when the NESCAC has gotten 4-5 bids how far in the NCAA tournament did the 3rd, 4th, and 5th teams get?
Either way those self imposed rules by Nescac will be felt by all teams in D3 by 2016-17. 18 max games, rare mid-week games, cut down NCAA's, etc. So while you anti-Nescac rhetoric has you grinning from ear to ear we most likely will not be seeing Kenyon anytime soon in November.
Also, Nescac got 5 teams in ONE year...ONE...4 teams in maybe 3 years. They beat each other up. Your shot should be at the UAA with different teams in different regions and still failing to advance .
You are way off-base. I'm on record going back to the beginning of last year that the NESCAC is a or the top conference in D3. Great conference. Great schools. Said all that many times. What I don't get is what seems to be an ongoing refrain about how the NESCAC is always getting screwed, and that all roads, all awards, etc should always lead back to the NESCAC. For all its supremacy, how many national titles come from the NESCAC? 3-4 for the men and 0 for the women. The volume of attention to the NESCAC seems a little out of balance, and then if another school or conference gets a little attention it's like the immediate response is "yeah, but what about the NESCAC" or "how dare you mention that school in the same sentence with the NESCAC" or "do you think Danny Brandt is leaving Messiah because Tufts kicked his butt?" In terms of posting, this site runs at least 10:1 NESCAC. You guys are getting your due. You're not getting cheated here.
I have never said anything of the sort.Danny Brandt knew he was leaving Messiah back in October and confided to a select few. Listen the Nescac is my league and I will support it forever.
My main points which are very important points which need to be explained to you as usual are
1. Nescac has no spring season..To a former player I cannot begin to explain to you what a disadvantage that is.
2. Nescac has no pre-season yet still manages to win NCAA soccer games / championships. Most D3 teams start mid August and if a team goes abroad then its early August. ONE EXTRA MONTH.
Your problem is you have no understanding of the history of these leagues and /or championships which is fine but you then bark out all this crap about why, where,who and when.
Didn't Amherst go abroad last summer?
They did go abroad but because of more stringent rules they are forced to choose between the end of May after finals for 2 weeks or during spring break in the middle/end of March. For example, if you wanted to take a trip in Baseball you have to do it at the end of August. While these trips are excellent for team building and the like the dates to be able to take them hardly help your pre season fitness and all that.
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 03, 2015, 09:02:30 AM
They did go abroad but because of more stringent rules they are forced to choose between the end of May after finals for 2 weeks or during spring break in the middle/end of March. For example, if you wanted to take a trip in Baseball you have to do it at the end of August. While these trips are excellent for team building and the like the dates to be able to take them hardly help your pre season fitness and all that.
Messiah also went abroad this past summer...in
MAY! This is not unique to NESCAC as Mr.Right is trying to suggest.
"A top 8 player in D3 won't cut it, not even for the USL Pro level."
This is an untrue statement... See Kyle Altman (Trinity University Alum) who played for the Minnesota Stars/Minnesota Thunder of the NASL, formerly USL (exact same level as USL Pro). He anchored the defense and was eventually team captain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Altman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Altman)
Additionally, Joe Warren (University of Saint Thomas) played keeper for the Minnesota Thunder for several years.
Give me the 8 best pro prospects in D3 and I'm sure they are good enough to make a roster at the USL level. It's much harder to get a chance and then even harder to make the most of that chance. If you do, who knows where your career could take you...look at Wondo, D2 kid who was a supplemental pick who turned $14k a year into $600 or something like that
Some D3 players who weren't even 1st team All-Americans (Note: I'm trying to illustrate that just cause you don't make 1st team all-american doesn't mean your chances at going pro are done)...Morgan Langley (Swarthmore) in 2009 got snubbed but is entering his 5th professional season in Harrisburg and is an important player there. Five years is a long career in 1 place in that league. Richie Marquez (Redlands) who was a shock invitee to the MLS combine (the only 1 that matters) last year and performed so well he was actually drafted by Philadelphia and went on loan to Harrisburg for the season and played well in his rookie campaign. Nick Thompson (Messiah) was a 2nd team All-American is 2010 and played 1 season for the Carolina Railhawks in the NASL before entering coaching.
Those are just to name a few. There are more D3 players at the USL/NASL level than you would think. Still minimal in comparison to other divisions but more than you would think.
Personally lets go further and add 7 former Williams alums
Khari Stephonson- MLS for about 6 years with maybe 8-10 goals and still in the league at age 33
Dan Calichman- current assistant coach at Toronto FC was a MLS All-Star and played for about 10 years for the New England Revs and LA Galaxy.2 US Caps
Alex Blake- Played a bit for Colorado but did not pan out but he was the most talented of any of them. his downfall was his immaturity at the age of 22.
Mike Masters- There was no MLS when he played but he would of made it and played alongside Bruce Murray and a bunch of the 1990 World Cup USA teammates in the defunct ASL. First American to score at Wembley Stadium.
Steve Danbusky- USL great with Long Island Rough Riders.
Charlie Romero- Charleston Battery
Josh Bolton-Rochester Rhinos.
That is just 7 off the top of my head and I am sure I am missing about 10 others. That is for ONE team. I am sure many others on this board could go on for days with players from their own leagues and teams about players impacting USL. MLS is a different story which is why I said Ramirez has NO SHOT with the UNION.
One other Wesleyan speedster star play Amos McGee was a perennial star with the USL Minnesota franchise for years.
I agree with Last Guy that the top 8 players usually will struggle nowadays to get quality looks and then break the first team in MLS. VERY DIFFICULT.
I will disagree with last guy that the top 8 players will and can make an impact in the USL. The question being is do these guys want to continue playing for minimal $$$ or go get a REAL job.
I think for some people the idea of living out a dream (USL season is 7 months if you make a championship game so not a long season) can trump trying to find a full time job immediately, especially if they don't know what they want to pursue yet. I'm sure that's different for NESCAC schools who would like to put that prestigious degree to work right away which is very understandable, but maybe not the case for a player who went to a school like Thomas More., which isn't a jab at Thomas More's education, just illustrating there's a difference in the degrees.
I always love to see a D3 guy make a roster and even better when they make a name for themselves in any of those leagues. Especially when the lower teams knock off MLS teams in the Open Cup, always fun to see.
Morgan Langley from Swat is currently on Harrisburg City Islanders along with Richie Marquez from Redlands.
Chris Boyles from Messiah played for Charlotte Eagles when they were the division below the MLS I believe.
I think Bryan Hoy from E-town played for Charleston Battery too for a short stint.
My statement was just a bit of an exaggeration as a player like Kai from Messiah never even cracked USL Pro. Looking at Altman, he was a first team AA for 2 years, so it's not surprising to see a defender like that crack into the USL Pro/NASL level. I am not familiar with his seasons at Trinity, but he had to be one of the best backs in the nation...
I'm sure some of the USL players also make some good coin on the side doing individual training sessions or summer camps...
Defenders are more likely to get a look versus midfielders and forwards in my opinion. Size and athleticism cannot be taught so having a string bean like Altman be an integral part of the Minnesota United roster made sense. I know that Altman went on trial with the Portland Timbers but unfortunately that was cut short due to injury. He went back to school to further his education so he is no longer playing professionally.
In all forms of American sport, you could be a fantastic college athlete at any level and not cut it at the professional level. You see this often with collegiate football players winning the Heisman Trophy and not panning out in the NFL. Kai was amazing at the D3 level, but it would seem that he was at his peak and his upside at a professional level was limited specifically for the position he played. How athletically gifted was he? He certainly had superior technical ability for the D3 level.
Kai Kasiguran signed with the Chicago Fire and was on their roster for a year or so, IIRC. But most of that time was lost to injury, however. Not saying he would or would not have cracked the Fire's regular gameday roster and/or starting line-up, but his chance to claim a place was severely hampered by injury and then they released him. I'm not sure if he tried to play elsewhere after that or not.
But in general, plenty of D-III players have and can play one level down from the MLS. 10 to 15 years ago it was easier than it is now. And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player.
I agree with the prior comments that "And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player..." IMHO, I really believe that a handful of D3 players each year can eventually make an MLS roster but succomb to the foregoing or have some kind of stigma by MLS personal because they played D3. Talentwise there are a select few. One thing I can say is that I have seen many D3 players that are better than some D1 players......
Quote from: Flying Weasel on January 06, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
Kai Kasiguran signed with the Chicago Fire and was on their roster for a year or so, IIRC. But most of that time was lost to injury, however. Not saying he would or would not have cracked the Fire's regular gameday roster and/or starting line-up, but his chance to claim a place was severely hampered by injury and then they released him. I'm not sure if he tried to play elsewhere after that or not.
But in general, plenty of D-III players have and can play one level down from the MLS. 10 to 15 years ago it was easier than it is now. And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player.
I believe Kai went on to play with the Harrisburg City Islanders of the USL before injuries led to his permanent retirement
I knew the Williams representation would be impressive, but to see them all laid out like that is unreal for a D3 school.
Langley has carved a successful pro career as a mid/forward with Hburg, and even got a sniff with the Union based upon his world-class speed, nose for the goal, and competitive fire. I would refute the opinion that a D3 player with exceptional skill but below average MLS speed would get a serious look.
Quote from: Sirius90 on January 08, 2015, 01:20:38 PM
Langley has carved a successful pro career as a mid/forward with Hburg, and even got a sniff with the Union based upon his world-class speed, nose for the goal, and competitive fire. I would refute the opinion that a D3 player with exceptional skill but below average MLS speed would get a serious look.
u got any examples? Or are you just REFUTING to refute. Remember his exceptional skill will not be exceptional in MLS it will be average at best, That leaves him with a good soccer brain, average MLS skill and below average speed. HE HAS NO SHOT especially with coaches taking less and less risks on D3 kids because jobs are on the line even in scouting and player personnel departments
Mr. Right, I bet you didn't see this one coming.
http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/1/9/MSOC_0109151255.aspx?path=msoc
Quote from: soccerfan111 on January 09, 2015, 01:26:52 PM
Mr. Right, I bet you didn't see this one coming.
http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/1/9/MSOC_0109151255.aspx?path=msoc
No I did not but makes a ton of sense even if it is kinda a step side/down. Maybe he was promised additional duties like waxing Brandt's car and getting Halloween candy. 2 ways of looking at this....1. Pottegeir the young aggressor feels his talents are better than Gordon and to get a real good D1 or top D3 gig he needs to go back to D1 Assistant. or he is giving up on the fact of making Gordon into one of these right wing soccer stud bible thumpin schools......
He went back because they offered him a ton of money, Brandt is on his way out.. Just a matter if time, and they want to be close to family.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on January 09, 2015, 03:30:39 PM
He went back because they offered him a ton of money, Brandt is on his way out.. Just a matter if time, and they want to be close to family.
That makes sense....
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 09, 2015, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: soccerfan111 on January 09, 2015, 01:26:52 PM
Mr. Right, I bet you didn't see this one coming.
http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/1/9/MSOC_0109151255.aspx?path=msoc
No I did not but makes a ton of sense even if it is kinda a step side/down. Maybe he was promised additional duties like waxing Brandt's car and getting Halloween candy. 2 ways of looking at this....1. Pottegeir the young aggressor feels his talents are better than Gordon and to get a real good D1 or top D3 gig he needs to go back to D1 Assistant. or he is giving up on the fact of making Gordon into one of these right wing soccer stud bible thumpin schools......
Pardon me, Mr. Right, but your objectivity is showing. Again. Of course, there are no such schools in your little club--the Ivies and the "elite" old New England colleges, are there? This does help one understand some of your previous comments...
uggh....
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on January 09, 2015, 03:30:39 PM
He went back because they offered him a ton of money, Brandt is on his way out.. Just a matter if time, and they want to be close to family.
Approximately how much is "a ton of money"? Also when you say it is just a matter of time for Brandt to leave...how long are you talkng about...months, years (if so, how many), decades?
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 09, 2015, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: soccerfan111 on January 09, 2015, 01:26:52 PM
Mr. Right, I bet you didn't see this one coming.
http://athletics.gordon.edu/news/2015/1/9/MSOC_0109151255.aspx?path=msoc
No I did not but makes a ton of sense even if it is kinda a step side/down. Maybe he was promised additional duties like waxing Brandt's car and getting Halloween candy. 2 ways of looking at this....1. Pottegeir the young aggressor feels his talents are better than Gordon and to get a real good D1 or top D3 gig he needs to go back to D1 Assistant. or he is giving up on the fact of making Gordon into one of these right wing soccer stud bible thumpin schools......
Mr. Right - Your opinion on Potteiger is so far from reality it's ridiculous. He's not even leaving Gordon. Try to keep up if you can.
Also that's a lot of adjectives for you..."right wing soccer stud bible thumpin" - curious which schools you are describing there.
I'm not privy to how much of a raise it was but it was stated to be really good money for an associate head coach. Since Brandt was within days of taking the Pittsburgh pro job, I think a lot if people believe he is getting the "itch" again possibly having reached a ceiling at navy.
Very happy it's all moot with Potteiger staying. We'll see if he can continue moving Gordon towards being one of those right wing bible thumping powerhouses that have dominated d3 soccer over the years.
Curious if anyone here attended the NSCAA convention in Philadelphia and if so, how was it? Is it worth attending, even if you're not a coach but just want to learn more about the game? THe list of speakers was really impressive and included Pele, Sir Alex Ferguson and many other interesting names. This has been on my list of possible to dos.
BREAKING NEWS:
Potteiger returns to Gordon. It must have been God's will
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 19, 2015, 06:51:48 PM
BREAKING NEWS:
Potteiger returns to Gordon. It must have been God's will
More like...YESTERDAY'S NEWS
You are a day late and a dollar short.
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 06, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
I agree with the prior comments that "And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player..." IMHO, I really believe that a handful of D3 players each year can eventually make an MLS roster but succomb to the foregoing or have some kind of stigma by MLS personal because they played D3. Talentwise there are a select few. One thing I can say is that I have seen many D3 players that are better than some D1 players......
I agree with your comment re many D3 players being better than some of the lower tier D1 players. I have to believe this dynamic is much more prevalent in soccer than in other sports, and I believe it is because there is so little money in the USA for soccer - both scholarship money, as well as a path to the professional game. If I posted this comment in a non-D3 forum, a bunch of people would be jumping down my throat saying it is because sour grapes, my kid can't play, etc. Bu the reality is, we looked for the best fit college-wise for my kid(s) - only one is a serious soccer player, and the soccer equation was only one factor, along with his major, location, an academic fit.
Quote from: Corazon on January 20, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 06, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
I agree with the prior comments that "And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player..." IMHO, I really believe that a handful of D3 players each year can eventually make an MLS roster but succomb to the foregoing or have some kind of stigma by MLS personal because they played D3. Talentwise there are a select few. One thing I can say is that I have seen many D3 players that are better than some D1 players......
I agree with your comment re many D3 players being better than some of the lower tier D1 players. I have to believe this dynamic is much more prevalent in soccer than in other sports, and I believe it is because there is so little money in the USA for soccer - both scholarship money, as well as a path to the professional game. If I posted this comment in a non-D3 forum, a bunch of people would be jumping down my throat saying it is because sour grapes, my kid can't play, etc. Bu the reality is, we looked for the best fit college-wise for my kid(s) - only one is a serious soccer player, and the soccer equation was only one factor, along with his major, location, an academic fit.
You hit it on the head. I think what also comes into play is that soccer players don't have to be big (weight and/or height) so that limitation does not exist like in other D! sports (i.e. football and basketball)
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 20, 2015, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Corazon on January 20, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 06, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
I agree with the prior comments that "And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player..." IMHO, I really believe that a handful of D3 players each year can eventually make an MLS roster but succomb to the foregoing or have some kind of stigma by MLS personal because they played D3. Talentwise there are a select few. One thing I can say is that I have seen many D3 players that are better than some D1 players......
I agree with your comment re many D3 players being better than some of the lower tier D1 players. I have to believe this dynamic is much more prevalent in soccer than in other sports, and I believe it is because there is so little money in the USA for soccer - both scholarship money, as well as a path to the professional game. If I posted this comment in a non-D3 forum, a bunch of people would be jumping down my throat saying it is because sour grapes, my kid can't play, etc. Bu the reality is, we looked for the best fit college-wise for my kid(s) - only one is a serious soccer player, and the soccer equation was only one factor, along with his major, location, an academic fit.
You hit it on the head. I think what also comes into play is that soccer players don't have to be big (weight and/or height) so that limitation does not exist like in other D! sports (i.e. football and basketball)
Can the same be said for lacrosse?
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 20, 2015, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Corazon on January 20, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on January 06, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
I agree with the prior comments that "And a lot of it comes down to the motivation of the player to make the sacrifices it takes to make a go of it versus getting on with life and another career. And many things factor into that decision, not just one's chances of being successful as a pro player..." IMHO, I really believe that a handful of D3 players each year can eventually make an MLS roster but succomb to the foregoing or have some kind of stigma by MLS personal because they played D3. Talentwise there are a select few. One thing I can say is that I have seen many D3 players that are better than some D1 players......
I agree with your comment re many D3 players being better than some of the lower tier D1 players. I have to believe this dynamic is much more prevalent in soccer than in other sports, and I believe it is because there is so little money in the USA for soccer - both scholarship money, as well as a path to the professional game. If I posted this comment in a non-D3 forum, a bunch of people would be jumping down my throat saying it is because sour grapes, my kid can't play, etc. Bu the reality is, we looked for the best fit college-wise for my kid(s) - only one is a serious soccer player, and the soccer equation was only one factor, along with his major, location, an academic fit.
You hit it on the head. I think what also comes into play is that soccer players don't have to be big (weight and/or height) so that limitation does not exist like in other D! sports (i.e. football and basketball)
Both excellent points!