How does the committe give Tufts the nod over Middlebury with only 9 wins? Yes, they beat Middlebury 1-0, but they got knocked out of the NESCAC tournament in the first round, and they only had 9 wins overall, and Middlebury finished 2nd in the NESCAC regular season while Tufts finished 3rd. It is outrageous that the committe likely gave Tufts the benefit of the doubt because they won the NCAA championship last year. Unfortunately, you need to perform to get in the tournament, and Tufts had a mediocre year.
That had nothing to do with it. Frankly if Saward went out and played a couple decent teams non-conference then I would sympathize with you. I think the SOS was good but the committee took a HUMAN look at it and said it was not up to snuff. I wen tover this yesterday they finished 13-2-2. Throw out all 5 non conference games because those teams were horrendous at best. So now 8-2-2. Throw out Colby , Bates and Hamilton. So now 5-2-2. 2 wins vs a medicore Trinity side. So now 3-2-2. A win against Wesleyan and Williams who both were just at .500 in down years. Now 1-2-2. The one win was against a 10-5-1 Conn team. Not going to cut it any way you slice it. They got slammed for playing 5 sh*t teams which some of us(ME) predicted would happen in August.
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 01:15:53 PM
How does the committe give Tufts the nod over Middlebury with only 9 wins? Yes, they beat Middlebury 1-0, but they got knocked out of the NESCAC tournament in the first round, and they only had 9 wins overall, and Middlebury finished 2nd in the NESCAC regular season while Tufts finished 3rd. It is outrageous that the committe likely gave Tufts the benefit of the doubt because they won the NCAA championship last year. Unfortunately, you need to perform to get in the tournament, and Tufts had a mediocre year.
Midd should have gotten in over RPI not Tufts. I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is. Should always have a shot at defending your crown. I don't think Tufts is a shocker for anyone. RPI is and Midd not getting in is also a shock. Great Lakes region did not help the cause either.
I am starting to think the Thomas More bid was as bad. I mean if RPI qualified for the LL none of us would really have a problem with them getting in.
DePauw as well is questionable...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 01:31:52 PM
I mean if RPI qualified for the LL none of us would really have a problem with them getting in.
I'd still have thought it was a little fishy, even with them being ranked in the NSCAA top 10 at one point IIRC. I mean who else did they beat besides Oneonta (home)? Regardless, if it came down to Middlebury or RPI I'd have taken Midd.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
That had nothing to do with it. Frankly if Saward went out and played a couple decent teams non-conference then I would sympathize with you. I think the SOS was good but the committee took a HUMAN look at it and said it was not up to snuff. I wen tover this yesterday they finished 13-2-2. Throw out all 5 non conference games because those teams were horrendous at best. So now 8-2-2. Throw out Colby , Bates and Hamilton. So now 5-2-2. 2 wins vs a medicore Trinity side. So now 3-2-2. A win against Wesleyan and Williams who both were just at .500 in down years. Now 1-2-2. The one win was against a 10-5-1 Conn team. Not going to cut it any way you slice it. They got slammed for playing 5 sh*t teams which some of us(ME) predicted would happen in August.
I'm in agreement with you on this, MR, so I'm not as much arguing your point as I am arguing against what the committee may have done (if they did, indeed, do what you describe).
There is selection criteria for a reason. And you know what's not part of the criteria? Disregarding a stated criterion (SOS) in favor of a gut feel for what the strength of that schedule really was, numbers be damned. Also not part of the criteria—selectively regarding or disregarding wins against certain opponents. So as described, the committee would simultaneously disregard Midd's win over Bates or their win over Hamilton, while ALSO disregarding Tuft's tie against Bates and loss against Hamilton? That makes no sense. Against the same NESCAC opponents that we're tossing out as irrelevant wins for Midd, Tufts lost to Hamilton (Midd won), tied Bates (Midd won), and tied Wesleyan (Midd won). Both teams beat Colby, Conn, Trinity, and Williams. Both lost to Amherst, 1-0. and Tufts beat Midd 1-0. So it seems like the 1-0 win trumps the 3-0-0 v 0-2-1 record. Or, actually, the win plus OOC trumps 3-0-0 v 0-2-1, which still seems like a stretch to me. Whatever.
I would so very much like to see Midd play Skidmore, RPI, and Plattsburgh instead of GMC, Castleton, and Colby-Sawyer, and I think it's possible to want those things and still think the Panthers were screwed this year! (Though, as stated, I think a far greater mistake was in the inclusion not of Tufts, but of RPI.)
The whole New England Region got 3 Pool C's. That is WAY DOWN. Usually 4-5 every year. Well you can blame the AR who called back a goal on the PK shootout or you can blame the crossbar for turning away a chance in the 1st Half but either way their lockers are being cleaned out today if not yesterday and they are finished.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
That had nothing to do with it. Frankly if Saward went out and played a couple decent teams non-conference then I would sympathize with you. I think the SOS was good but the committee took a HUMAN look at it and said it was not up to snuff. I wen tover this yesterday they finished 13-2-2. Throw out all 5 non conference games because those teams were horrendous at best. So now 8-2-2. Throw out Colby , Bates and Hamilton. So now 5-2-2. 2 wins vs a medicore Trinity side. So now 3-2-2. A win against Wesleyan and Williams who both were just at .500 in down years. Now 1-2-2. The one win was against a 10-5-1 Conn team. Not going to cut it any way you slice it. They got slammed for playing 5 sh*t teams which some of us(ME) predicted would happen in August.
When you break it down like this, it seems to make a lot of sense to me. Well done, Mr. (usually) Right.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 01:15:53 PM
How does the committe give Tufts the nod over Middlebury with only 9 wins? Yes, they beat Middlebury 1-0, but they got knocked out of the NESCAC tournament in the first round, and they only had 9 wins overall, and Middlebury finished 2nd in the NESCAC regular season while Tufts finished 3rd. It is outrageous that the committe likely gave Tufts the benefit of the doubt because they won the NCAA championship last year. Unfortunately, you need to perform to get in the tournament, and Tufts had a mediocre year.
Midd should have gotten in over RPI not Tufts. I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is. Should always have a shot at defending your crown. I don't think Tufts is a shocker for anyone. RPI is and Midd not getting in is also a shock. Great Lakes region did not help the cause either.
Completely disagree with you on this one, Shooter. It's not a monarchy for heavens sakes. Thank goodness Tufts is actually a very good team and legitimately in the mix, but imagine if they were 6-8-2. Still get an automatic bid? This is friggin D3 soccer!
First of all, the automatic bid thing is nonsense; no one gets that in any sport/any division. As for SOS, I can't disagree with anyone regarding Middlebury's non-conference games, as it is perplexing why they would play Green Mountain and Colby-Sawyer (they are in-state and Vermont simply doesnt have good D3 teams; Tufts played Brandeis, Endicott and Gordon which are all in Massachusetts with Plymouth State the only out of state non-conference game). However, Tufts only really tough win was against Gordon and they lost to Brandeis (which is a loss regardless of the 1-0 score). The NESCAC, although not as top notch this year as other years, is still a very tough conference. And, Tufts had only 5 wins vs. 7 wins for Middlebury and only 9 wins overall. Im not suggesting that Middlebury is a great team (and I am not a grad), but their conference play should have given them the nod over Tufts this year.
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
First of all, the automatic bid thing is nonsense; no one gets that in any sport/any division.
Huh? All of DIII works this way. As does DII on a modified basis (depending on the sport I believe) and even DI works on AQ slots. Pretty much all of college sports uses AQ conferences.
im talking about getting an automatic bid just because you were the previous year's NCAA champion. That's what Shooter wrote, "I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is". Also, my point is that Tufts ALSO lost in the first round of their conference championship in addition to only winning 5 conference games. They simply didn't deserve to make the NCAA this year.
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 02:51:25 PM
im talking about getting an automatic bid just because you were the previous year's NCAA champion. That's what Shooter wrote, "I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is". Also, my point is that Tufts ALSO lost in the first round of their conference championship in addition to only winning 5 conference games. They simply didn't deserve to make the NCAA this year.
Got it. That makes more sense.
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
First of all, the automatic bid thing is nonsense; no one gets that in any sport/any division. As for SOS, I can't disagree with anyone regarding Middlebury's non-conference games, as it is perplexing why they would play Green Mountain and Colby-Sawyer (they are in-state and Vermont simply doesnt have good D3 teams; Tufts played Brandeis, Endicott and Gordon which are all in Massachusetts with Plymouth State the only out of state non-conference game). However, Tufts only really tough win was against Gordon and they lost to Brandeis (which is a loss regardless of the 1-0 score). The NESCAC, although not as top notch this year as other years, is still a very tough conference. And, Tufts had only 5 wins vs. 7 wins for Middlebury and only 9 wins overall. Im not suggesting that Middlebury is a great team (and I am not a grad), but their conference play should have given them the nod over Tufts this year.
There is no reason they cannot hop on the bus and play anyone of Union, RPI and Skidmore. Especially Skidmore. Union would most likely not play them but RPI is always begging for games. Skidmore is only 1 1/2 hrs away if that. I get the Castleton game because they are so close and Norwich is also fine but the others need to be dropped. Next year they travel to Conn College and Trinity on seperate Saturdays. They might have to work in a back to back on the Sunday folowing those games with an ECONN or a WNEC or Springfield. ECONN always begging to play games but not sure about the other 2. ECONN is no picnic to play out of conference because they sit 10 deep and frustrate you which is a headache all in itself. Midd used to play Keene St but that game has long passed. Maybe cross the bridge on your BYE weekend and play Plattsburgh or even a 2 1/2 hour trip to SLU. They must get a little bit more creative
totally agree. It makes no sense for a team that wants to play in the NCAAs to play any teams that are likely to be a joke (Conn College plays Coast Guard because they are across the street and Mitchell because they are in New London, so they are hoping for rivalry games, but other than that you need to play tougher teams out of conference and win those games). I still stand by the fact that Tufts didnt do a good enough job in their conference (both regular and championship) to warrant a NCAA bid.
Mr. Right..the non-conference games are overall a problem for Middlebury--agreed. However, look at one team that both played- Plymouth State. Middlebury beat
PS 5-0 and Tufts beat them 1-0. It's just another example of why Middlebury, with more conference wins and a loss in the Semis of the NESCAC vs. Tufts
losing in the Quarters and a non-conference beating of a team that Tufts barely got by, should have been given the nod over Tufts.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 10, 2015, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
First of all, the automatic bid thing is nonsense; no one gets that in any sport/any division. As for SOS, I can't disagree with anyone regarding Middlebury's non-conference games, as it is perplexing why they would play Green Mountain and Colby-Sawyer (they are in-state and Vermont simply doesnt have good D3 teams; Tufts played Brandeis, Endicott and Gordon which are all in Massachusetts with Plymouth State the only out of state non-conference game). However, Tufts only really tough win was against Gordon and they lost to Brandeis (which is a loss regardless of the 1-0 score). The NESCAC, although not as top notch this year as other years, is still a very tough conference. And, Tufts had only 5 wins vs. 7 wins for Middlebury and only 9 wins overall. Im not suggesting that Middlebury is a great team (and I am not a grad), but their conference play should have given them the nod over Tufts this year.
There is no reason they cannot hop on the bus and play anyone of Union, RPI and Skidmore. Especially Skidmore. Union would most likely not play them but RPI is always begging for games. Skidmore is only 1 1/2 hrs away if that . . . Maybe cross the bridge on your BYE weekend and play Plattsburgh or even a 2 1/2 hour trip to SLU. They must get a little bit more creative
Jeff Guinn at Union would play Middlebury. Their reserve teams already play each other. Union will schedule strong OOC opponents (such as Babson in 2007-09) when they can. As you state, those three schools (RPI, Skidmore, and Union) are naturals for Middlebury, as they are all within a 90 minute bus ride.
As per Bing maps:
Middlebury to . . .
Skidmore: 86 mi. / 1:45 - 2:00 hrs.
Union: 108 mi. / 2:15 - 2:35 hrs.
RPI: 103 - 114 mi. / 2:05 - 2:25 hrs.
Potsdam St.: 140 - 150 mi. / 3:00 - 3:20 hrs.
Clarkson: 150 mi. / 3:05 - 3:25 hrs.
St. Lawrence: 150 - 160 mi. / 3:15 - 3:30 hrs.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 10, 2015, 04:44:32 PM
As per Bing maps:
Middlebury to . . .
Skidmore: 86 mi. / 1:45 - 2:00 hrs.
Union: 108 mi. / 2:15 - 2:35 hrs.
RPI: 103 - 114 mi. / 2:05 - 2:25 hrs.
Potsdam St.: 140 - 150 mi. / 3:00 - 3:20 hrs.
Clarkson: 150 mi. / 3:05 - 3:25 hrs.
St. Lawrence: 150 - 160 mi. / 3:15 - 3:30 hrs.
Skidmore! A no-brainer. I'd even say a weekend trip to SLU could be a good early-season litmus test for both teams.
Swap Skidmore and RPI out with any of (via Google Maps):
Norwich: 56 mi / 1:24 hrs
Colby-Sawyer: 106 mi / 2:07 hrs
Plymouth State: 108 mi / 2:30 hrs
Green Mountain and Castleton are both less than an hour, so I can see keeping them. But swap out Norwich and Plymouth State, for goodness' sake!
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
DePauw as well is questionable...
I don't understand why so many people are upset about them getting in.
They went out and played a difficult non-conference schedule which earned points in the regional rankings - something we should all be applauding. They also happen to play in a very good conference that could have gotten 4 teams into the tourney if it hadn't been for Denison's late season collapse.
They beat Loras and Kenyon this year.
They tied Thomas More.
They lost to Rose Hulman and OWU (twice).
So they were 2-3-1 against tournament teams - certainly better than some other teams in the tourney and certainly better than others outside that are bitching.
I agree with MR. Middlebury did not get screwed by Tufts. Based on the selection criteria as defined by the NCAA for Pool C selection, Tufts absolutely deserved to be in.
CC1984, take your argument up with RPI or Wisc-Oshkosh. Bottom line is both Tufts and Middlebury should be in. NESCAC should have at least 4 teams, and if you follow Massey or Bennett Rankings and argument could be made for more than 4...
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
First of all, the automatic bid thing is nonsense; no one gets that in any sport/any division. As for SOS, I can't disagree with anyone regarding Middlebury's non-conference games, as it is perplexing why they would play Green Mountain and Colby-Sawyer (they are in-state and Vermont simply doesnt have good D3 teams; Tufts played Brandeis, Endicott and Gordon which are all in Massachusetts with Plymouth State the only out of state non-conference game). However, Tufts only really tough win was against Gordon and they lost to Brandeis (which is a loss regardless of the 1-0 score). The NESCAC, although not as top notch this year as other years, is still a very tough conference. And, Tufts had only 5 wins vs. 7 wins for Middlebury and only 9 wins overall. Im not suggesting that Middlebury is a great team (and I am not a grad), but their conference play should have given them the nod over Tufts this year.
Issue..... you neglect to mention an important comparison....that Tufts beat Middlebury, and while the score was only 1-0 I think they really plaeyed better....the beef should be with other teams making it, as mentioned earlier...
i already mentioned that Tufts beat Middlebury 1-0, but so what. They couldnt even get by their first round game in the NESCAC tournament; if they made it to the finals and Middlebury did not and didnt lose to Hamilton, or if they had 12 wins then I could buy into them getting in over Middebury. I still say the Plymouth State games against Tufts and Middlebury offers a way to break a tie even if I dont think a tie is warranted with only 9 wins. Yes, NESCAC probably should have four teams given that Middlebury was in the top 15 at the end of tournament play. Im not a Middlebury alum or fan (and I can't stand Sayward or the Amherst coach who is a thug and has his team playing dirty every single game). I dont know much about RPI or Wisc-Osh Kosh, but Im sure there are other issues.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2015, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 01:15:53 PM
How does the committe give Tufts the nod over Middlebury with only 9 wins? Yes, they beat Middlebury 1-0, but they got knocked out of the NESCAC tournament in the first round, and they only had 9 wins overall, and Middlebury finished 2nd in the NESCAC regular season while Tufts finished 3rd. It is outrageous that the committe likely gave Tufts the benefit of the doubt because they won the NCAA championship last year. Unfortunately, you need to perform to get in the tournament, and Tufts had a mediocre year.
Midd should have gotten in over RPI not Tufts. I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is. Should always have a shot at defending your crown. I don't think Tufts is a shocker for anyone. RPI is and Midd not getting in is also a shock. Great Lakes region did not help the cause either.
Completely disagree with you on this one, Shooter. It's not a monarchy for heavens sakes. Thank goodness Tufts is actually a very good team and legitimately in the mix, but imagine if they were 6-8-2. Still get an automatic bid? This is friggin D3 soccer!
That's fine to disagree and it would never happen but I feel like if you win the national title you should have a chance to at least to defend it. In every sport that has a large playing field not just soccer. Just a thought not actually saying it should happen or ever will but it would be cool to see
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2015, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 10, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: CC1984 on November 10, 2015, 01:15:53 PM
How does the committe give Tufts the nod over Middlebury with only 9 wins? Yes, they beat Middlebury 1-0, but they got knocked out of the NESCAC tournament in the first round, and they only had 9 wins overall, and Middlebury finished 2nd in the NESCAC regular season while Tufts finished 3rd. It is outrageous that the committe likely gave Tufts the benefit of the doubt because they won the NCAA championship last year. Unfortunately, you need to perform to get in the tournament, and Tufts had a mediocre year.
Midd should have gotten in over RPI not Tufts. I personally believe that if you win the national title that you should automatically be put in the field the next year no matter what your record is. Should always have a shot at defending your crown. I don't think Tufts is a shocker for anyone. RPI is and Midd not getting in is also a shock. Great Lakes region did not help the cause either.
Completely disagree with you on this one, Shooter. It's not a monarchy for heavens sakes. Thank goodness Tufts is actually a very good team and legitimately in the mix, but imagine if they were 6-8-2. Still get an automatic bid? This is friggin D3 soccer!
That's fine to disagree and it would never happen but I feel like if you win the national title you should have a chance to at least to defend it. In every sport that has a large playing field not just soccer. Just a thought not actually saying it should happen or ever will but it would be cool to see
You have the opportunity to defend it when you step onto the field in September. That should be enough.
Shooter, you are far from the only person who has suggested this, so not directed really at you. I am curious about the desire for it, though, and whether it is context-dependent or not. Perhaps I very well would feel the same way if my team was right on the cut line and they were defending champs. Would we feel the same way about Messiah after winning 5 in a row? Is anyone beyond the Messiah faithful feeling bad about the Falcons not being in this year's tournament? Or, think about some other team that you really don't like and how you would feel about them being automatic for the tourney regardless of performance the following year. And imagine the outcry if the NCAA D1 football tournament worked that way or March Madness.
Quote from: NCAC New England on November 10, 2015, 09:05:40 PM
Shooter, you are far from the only person who has suggested this, so not directed really at you. I am curious about the desire for it, though, and whether it is context-dependent or not. Perhaps I very well would feel the same way if my team was right on the cut line and they were defending champs. Would we feel the same way about Messiah after winning 5 in a row? Is anyone beyond the Messiah faithful feeling bad about the Falcons not being in this year's tournament? Or, think about some other team that you really don't like and how you would feel about them being automatic for the tourney regardless of performance the following year. And imagine the outcry if the NCAA D1 football tournament worked that way or March Madness.
Well that's why I stated sports with a big field like basketball which has 68 teams...similar to 61/64 for men and women's soccer. Football has I believe now only 4 teams for the college football playoff? So that's not really a large playing field.........
So yes there would be an outcry if Ohio St. was automatically put in the college football playoff because they won last year. But there wouldn't be that big of an outcry if Tufts was automatically put in this year or Duke basketball was automatically put in. They are just 1 of 61/68 teams...big difference than 1 of 4 if you ask me. I mean Etown and Midd already got screwed so what's ticking off one more team? Would it really matter? And Tufts got in so they have a shot at defending it. If they weren't the defending national champs they would not have gotten a bid this year.
Shooter, I think the cmte would disagree that Tufts got a bid because they are defending champs. That said, one would think it is human nature for cmtes to give high profile programs with a competitive resume a very close look.