Here's a great debate. I want to hear who you believe are the best teams from the past
2007 Loras Men
23-0-2
69 Goals Scored
6 Goals Conceded (4 regular season, 2 NCAA Tournament)
19 shutouts
1060:06 consecutive minutes without conceding a goal (11 consecutive shutouts)
Leading Goal Scorer: Matt Pucci (17G-1A-35pts)
Drew 0-0 with Middlebury in National Semifinal with Middlebury advancing on PK's.
Matt Brumfield - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Santiago Mejia - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Miguel Bonilla - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks Third Team All-Region
Matt Pucci - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Matt Splittgerber - NSCAA Second Team All-Region, D3Kicks Second Team All-Region
Mike Richter - NSCAA Second Team All-Region
Nate Dubois - NSCAA First Team All-Region
Username aside, it's hard to ignore 1999 SLU. 22-0, national champs. Dan Annan national player of the year.
I've said it before on here and I'll say it again.
The 2000 Ohio Wesleyan squad was ridiculous.
Lost in the quarters to an undefeated Linfield in the 4th OT - OWU dominated and the Linfield keeper was standing on his head.
Ty, Hoffman, Van Horn, Vorenkamp, Dunlap, Tacuma, the Miller boys. So many weapons. Best team I played against.
The D3 world was deprived of seeing them play Messiah in the semis - the year that Messiah won #1.
You probably could name a few Messiah Teams. I will pick the 2002 Team
23-2-1
Losses to Gettysburg(1-0) and Etown(1-0) - I believe these were both away matches and I can't remember who the tie was.
Won the National Championship (1-0 vs. Otterbein)
9 straight shutouts(2nd longest streak if my research doesn't fail me)
I believe 17 shutouts on the year(Dave Casper - Goalkeeper)
Matt Bills put up like 30 goals that year
Hayden Woodworth running the midfield (NCAA Player of the Year)
I am sure I could list more players but those are a few that standout to me right now.
This would be my ranking of the Messiah teams:
1. Messiah 2013 24-1-1. 2 NSCAA POY of year; Payne & Wood... and just an incredible front 6 with an AA Defender. Probably the best I've ever see in D3.
2. Messiah 2002 23-2-1
3. Messiah 2012 23-0-2
4. Messiah 2005 24-0-0
5. Messiah 2000 22-2-1
The 2007 team had 3 All-Americans... lost in Final 4.
Wheaton and the 66 game unbeaten run...
Trinity unbeaten season in 2003; 24-0.... Drew '03 with something like 16 or 17 straight shut-outs and lost to Trinity 2-1 in Final.
Rutgers-Camden unbeaten season before falling to Messiah in the 2013 final
Williams '95
Stockton '01 --- Most win in NCAA with 25
Quote from: NJrexSoccer03 on November 16, 2015, 10:30:28 AM
9 straight shutouts(2nd longest streak if my research doesn't fail me)
I'm not sure that's correct.
I think Etown had 10 straight shutouts in 99...
The 2000 Etown team was 15-3, missed a pool C bid (lost to Messiah 2x by a goal, once in OT) and Drew
of course we have to throw the messiahs in there but I want to hear about other teams. LGOTB it's a real shame that 2013 ruc team couldn't pull it off. If they played any other team other than messiah they would've went undefeated that year. I will also agree that the 2013 Falcons was the best team I have seen play. I would like to see a rematch of that 2013 team with Camden having no injuries and not playing a double overtime game the night before. but still kudos to messiah for winning their 10th that year.
Quote from: Sandy on November 16, 2015, 10:56:34 AM
Quote from: NJrexSoccer03 on November 16, 2015, 10:30:28 AM
9 straight shutouts(2nd longest streak if my research doesn't fail me)
I'm not sure that's correct.
Here is the article. It is Consecutive shutouts to start the season. Article is written in 2013.
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/around-the-nation/2013/streaks
Quote from: NJrexSoccer03 on November 16, 2015, 11:20:20 AM
Quote from: Sandy on November 16, 2015, 10:56:34 AM
Quote from: NJrexSoccer03 on November 16, 2015, 10:30:28 AM
9 straight shutouts(2nd longest streak if my research doesn't fail me)
I'm not sure that's correct.
Here is the article. It is Consecutive shutouts to start the season. Article is written in 2013.
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/around-the-nation/2013/streaks
Ahh well you should have specified it was shutouts to the start of season.
Quote from: Puerco Espin on November 15, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
2007 Loras Men
23-0-2
69 Goals Scored
6 Goals Conceded (4 regular season, 2 NCAA Tournament)
19 shutouts
1060:06 consecutive minutes without conceding a goal (11 consecutive shutouts)
Leading Goal Scorer: Matt Pucci (17G-1A-35pts)
Drew 0-0 with Middlebury in National Semifinal with Middlebury advancing on PK's.
That was a great team! My favorite player in that group was Matt Pucci!
Matt Brumfield - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Santiago Mejia - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Miguel Bonilla - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks Third Team All-Region
Matt Pucci - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Matt Splittgerber - NSCAA Second Team All-Region, D3Kicks Second Team All-Region
Mike Richter - NSCAA Second Team All-Region
Nate Dubois - NSCAA First Team All-Region
My favorite player from that team was Matt Pucci!!!
Any Messiah national title team and even some of theres that came up short.
Overall I would say the 2013 Messiah team was the best that I have ever seen play the game. Unbelievable talent that year.
We moved to Dubuque in '08. I wish I could have gotten to see this '07 Loras team, if only to see Pucci play. I thoroughly enjoyed watching the 2012 Messiah-Loras semifinal. Probably one of the best D3 games I've watched.
Quote from: Puerco Espin on November 15, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
2007 Loras Men
23-0-2
69 Goals Scored
6 Goals Conceded (4 regular season, 2 NCAA Tournament)
19 shutouts
1060:06 consecutive minutes without conceding a goal (11 consecutive shutouts)
Leading Goal Scorer: Matt Pucci (17G-1A-35pts)
Drew 0-0 with Middlebury in National Semifinal with Middlebury advancing on PK's.
Matt Brumfield - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Santiago Mejia - NSCAA Second Team All-American, D3Kicks Second Team All-American, NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Miguel Bonilla - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks Third Team All-Region
Matt Pucci - NSCAA First Team All-Region, D3Kicks First Team All-Region
Matt Splittgerber - NSCAA Second Team All-Region, D3Kicks Second Team All-Region
Mike Richter - NSCAA Second Team All-Region
Nate Dubois - NSCAA First Team All-Region
Loras players and coaching staff at the Hotel after the game was way more entertaining
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
Loras players and coaching staff at the Hotel after the game was way more entertaining
Nehhhh nehhhh, thump, thump, thud.... the horse is dead man, there's 3 years of overgrowth and weeds on that grave, let it go
-Barbaro
funny because loras acted the same way in the hotel after the 2013 defeat...
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 16, 2015, 08:28:05 PM
funny because loras acted the same way in the hotel after the 2013 defeat...
I was there in the hotel the entire night and didn't see any players or coaches acting out crazy or out of line. I did see the Rutgers players getting loud and drunk after their loss to Messiah. Messiah players would back that statement up because they were asked to partake by the R-C guys and declined. Not saying the Loras guus weren't drinking and having fun, but they weren't going nuts and causing a scene.
losing a national championship game in double OT to go undefeated.. hey I would have went straight to the bar. and do not act like loras players were angels they tried to fight the camden players in the hotel the night they lost after they were supposed to go home. . the Camden kids knew that was their only chance of ever going to the final four or winning a national championship so they enjoyed it while it lasted.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 16, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
losing a national championship game in double OT to go undefeated.. hey I would have went straight to the bar. and do not act like loras players were angels they tried to fight the camden players in the hotel the night they lost after they were supposed to go home. . the Camden kids knew that was their only chance of ever going to the final four or winning a national championship so they enjoyed it while it lasted.
So it's justified for R-C players to get drunk and out of line because they lost the Final in OT, but you chastise Loras for drinking after losing in OT on a fluke 55yd kick with 30-40 mph wind after being down 1-0 to taking the lead 2-1 and then having a goal awarded to R-C to tie it up that was later proved by video to have never crossed the line. That would be cause for bellying up to the bar.
I would love to know who witnessed Loras players "trying to get in fights" with R-C players, from my personal observation that night it would have been the opposite.
I don't recall saying they were angels, I actually said "Not saying the Loras guys weren't drinking and having fun, but they weren't going nuts and causing a scene."
Where is this video that it never crossed the line? Even if you freeze the blurry frame, you/we are in no position to judge. Only the AR on the line had the correct angle...
well actually none of the bars were even open after the messiah game for the Camden players to go to. and it's not camdens fault for the loras goalie coming off his line for the goal from 60+ yards away went in. I understand your frustration for 0-4 in the final four but there's no need to call the Camden players out. I was actually in the hotel when the loras kids started trouble with the Camden players coming in to the hotel to sleep after the game against loras. and it's also not camdens fault for letting 2 terrible goals in... I don't recall any players from any team being "drunk and acting out"
glad I brought this up
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 17, 2015, 11:17:06 AM
well actually none of the bars were even open after the messiah game for the Camden players to go to. and it's not camdens fault for the loras goalie coming off his line for the goal from 60+ yards away went in. I understand your frustration for 0-4 in the final four but there's no need to call the Camden players out. I was actually in the hotel when the loras kids started trouble with the Camden players coming in to the hotel to sleep after the game against loras. and it's also not camdens fault for letting 2 terrible goals in... I don't recall any players from any team being "drunk and acting out"
Ig you don't remember and players being drunk and acting out than explain this comment
"funny because loras acted the same way in the hotel after the 2013 defeat..."
you can act out and not be drunk... it seems as though loras has gained national attention for the way they act every year after losing in the semi finals.
The most talented Williams team and I think one of the most talented ever in D3 was not the national title team, or even any of the other Final Four teams -- it was the 2001 squad that was monumentally stunned in the NCAA tourney despite outshooting their opponents 48-8, and which featured three first-team all Americans (Giannacopoulos, Powell, and Alex Blake) and two guys who would play in the MLS (Blake, who would just have a cup of coffee, and Khari Stephenson, who has had a long soccer pro soccer career).
But because of the NCAA result, they obviously won't go down as the "best" team or anything close to it ... the 1995 Williams title team was the better "team," and did feature two national players of the year in Murray and Kauffman, but 2001 had more pure talent for sure.
I don't think the Loras players approved of this...
http://lastguyoffthebench.u.yuku.com/gallery/ls/aid/305649#.VktWhMlOnec
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
I don't think the Loras players approved of this...
http://lastguyoffthebench.u.yuku.com/gallery/ls/aid/305649#.VktWhMlOnec
hahahah yeah they were only a little mad after that...
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 17, 2015, 10:51:20 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 16, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
losing a national championship game in double OT to go undefeated.. hey I would have went straight to the bar. and do not act like loras players were angels they tried to fight the camden players in the hotel the night they lost after they were supposed to go home. . the Camden kids knew that was their only chance of ever going to the final four or winning a national championship so they enjoyed it while it lasted.
So it's justified for R-C players to get drunk and out of line because they lost the Final in OT, but you chastise Loras for drinking after losing in OT on a fluke 55yd kick with 30-40 mph wind after being down 1-0 to taking the lead 2-1 and then having a goal awarded to R-C to tie it up that was later proved by video to have never crossed the line. That would be cause for bellying up to the bar.
I would love to know who witnessed Loras players "trying to get in fights" with R-C players, from my personal observation that night it would have been the opposite.
I don't recall saying they were angels, I actually said "Not saying the Loras guys weren't drinking and having fun, but they weren't going nuts and causing a scene."
That Camden team along with most NJAC schools are classless and are typical in stereotypes. Classic Jersey teams that talk trash all game, swear at the refs, cheap shot you on top of the borderline dirty/physical play, then dont give a crap after they lose because it doesn't mean anything to them anyways. I know nothing about Loras and their antics off the field but from some people I know who were in San Antonio for the final 4 that year to watch Messiah...Camden players were hammered after losing. And honestly they should have been. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for most kids so might as well go get smashed after the great and historic season they had. No problems with that(as long as they are of legal drinking age of course ;)) but their antics on the field as players is shameful. No one really should deny this either. I think I have seen Camden play twice and you can hear them swearing through the video feed for the entire game. That was a very good Camden team though and Loras just got unlucky.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 17, 2015, 11:43:05 AM
Quote from: KICKIN95 on November 17, 2015, 10:51:20 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 16, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
losing a national championship game in double OT to go undefeated.. hey I would have went straight to the bar. and do not act like loras players were angels they tried to fight the camden players in the hotel the night they lost after they were supposed to go home. . the Camden kids knew that was their only chance of ever going to the final four or winning a national championship so they enjoyed it while it lasted.
So it's justified for R-C players to get drunk and out of line because they lost the Final in OT, but you chastise Loras for drinking after losing in OT on a fluke 55yd kick with 30-40 mph wind after being down 1-0 to taking the lead 2-1 and then having a goal awarded to R-C to tie it up that was later proved by video to have never crossed the line. That would be cause for bellying up to the bar.
I would love to know who witnessed Loras players "trying to get in fights" with R-C players, from my personal observation that night it would have been the opposite.
I don't recall saying they were angels, I actually said "Not saying the Loras guys weren't drinking and having fun, but they weren't going nuts and causing a scene."
That Camden team along with most NJAC schools are classless and are typical in stereotypes. Classic Jersey teams that talk trash all game, swear at the refs, cheap shot you on top of the borderline dirty/physical play, then dont give a crap after they lose because it doesn't mean anything to them anyways. I know nothing about Loras and their antics off the field but from some people I know who were in San Antonio for the final 4 that year to watch Messiah...Camden players were hammered after losing. And honestly they should have been. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for most kids so might as well go get smashed after the great and historic season they had. No problems with that(as long as they are of legal drinking age of course ;)) but their antics on the field as players is shameful. No one really should deny this either. I think I have seen Camden play twice and you can hear them swearing through the video feed for the entire game. That was a very good Camden team though and Loras just got unlucky.
there is no possible way you can say that they lose and do not care after. they wanted to drink after because they were upset about losing. no bars were included just some drinks at dinner after the game. yeah the Camden team may have some things to say but never were they classless and hacked players from other teams. everyone took shots at Camden after that final four saying they were classless. but hey they are from Camden NJ what do you expect... that's a joke btw.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 17, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
I don't think the Loras players approved of this...
http://lastguyoffthebench.u.yuku.com/gallery/ls/aid/305649#.VktWhMlOnec
hahahah yeah they were only a little mad after that...
I don't see a problem with that, just a little gamesmanship. The celebration done by Loras was originally meant to be them acting like they were paddling down the river in San Antonio.
Camden was known for foul language and off the ball contact, but that's just their style. They aren't the only team that drops colorful words on the field, I would say the majority of teams let some of that slip during the course of the match.
If only Camden had video feeds...
2 of the goals vs York were phenomenal and the 2 vs MSU were equally impressive in the Sweet 16 and Elite, respectively.
I'm sure the players were very upset after the loss... A few minutes away from a shoot-out for a chance to win and become one of the greatest teams ever in D3 history.
In that final you could see Camden was absolutely gassed. I think they only used 1 or 2 subs and the rest played the 103 or so odd minutes. Couple that with playing a high pressure team and very talented Loras side the night before... the effort they were able to put on display was nothing short of spectacular. The front 6 of Messiah DEFINITELY the best I have ever seen in my 15 years of watching D3 games. The 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-2-3 / 4-3-3 was pretty much unstoppable.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
If only Camden had video feeds...
2 of the goals vs York were phenomenal and the 2 vs MSU were equally impressive in the Sweet 16 and Elite, respectively.
or the 4 they put on Lycoming before they could even put their cleats on...
I don't even know how you get kids to go to Camden... Just for the "Rutgers" name and degree? Stockton campus and facilities are awesome. MSU is nice too... I also don't even think the staff are full-time, so considering they've reached the National map is impressive.
How many coaches out there are only part-time at the college level?
Camden also had 4/5 starters hurt that still played or tried to play those games. #25 from Camden playing with a broken foot with a tape cast on(still kicked the ball 60+ yards the night before) Mike Ryan who was AA had a torn muscle in his knee all season still playing. and a few other key players banged up. it would've been interesting to see messiah actually play a good team in the semi where they couldn't rest their starters.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 17, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
Camden also had 4/5 starters hurt that still played or tried to play those games. #25 from Camden playing with a broken foot with a tape cast on(still kicked the ball 60+ yards the night before) Mike Ryan who was AA had a torn muscle in his knee all season still playing. and a few other key players banged up. it would've been interesting to see messiah actually play a good team in the semi where they couldn't rest their starters.
Never said Camden wasn't a good team in my previous comments but people and teams have stereotypes for a reason...because they do the things that are said. Are they the only team that plays extra physical and borderline dirty? No way. Are they the only team that curses? No way! But are they cocky and aholes on the pitch? From what I have heard from NUMEROUS people is 100% yes. Fans, coaches and players don't just make that up just for fun. There is usually a reason behind it.
Also pretty much every team is banged up at that point in the long, treacherous season. It's sad that you are trying to use that as an excuse why they lost. Also that they had to play a good Loras team the night before...because Messiah didn't play the night before either right? Come on man this is just silly stuff you are saying. If they were hurt then they shouldn't have played and if they were tired then the coach should have subbed but seems like he had no depth or confidence in his bench like Messiah did/does. There's a reason why Messiah is so good and why they just continue to wear teams down game after game.
And if you want to go the route of making fun of the teams they beat along the way to get to the final then all power to you but one can also use your warped ideology and say that Lycoming was tired from having to play a first round game while Camden was fresh and on their home field...that's why Lycoming lost right?? Uhm...no they lost because Camden was the better team. Were they tired from the game a day or two before? Most likely? Not the reason they lost though. That Camden team deserved to be in the final and they proved why. They beat very good teams along the way and had great players. But that doesn't take away from the fact that their players are the way they are...and I am shocked that there wouldn't be one bar open at night in a city the size of San Antonio, Texas.
And they definitely took "cheap" shots on players throughout the tournament...did you not watch any of the games?
Camden was great that year. Rough and physical but also were underrated in their possession game which they were very good at as well. Great goal scorers and although they were a chippy team they used that to their advantage in the sense of mind games and taking other teams out of their realm. All part of the game as Camden is not the only team that plays this way. Not saying I support it but it's just their style. Messiah was the best team that year hands down. Camden and Loras were right behind.
I think Camden knew that year the only team that could beat them was messiah. I guess you can thank the upset from rose hulman over OWU which gave messiah an easier route. but it happens oh well. Mid Atlantic Fan is right they knew how to gust rate every team they played and by the end of each game the other team was arguing with each other and very frustrated.
QuoteThere's a reason why Messiah is so good and why they just continue to wear teams down game after game.
Yes, this is true. The main reason they consistently make runs on top of being an excellent team, is the benefit of an easy conference. The starters on Messiah average what, 60 minutes per game? That is a HUGE advantage compared to NJAC/UAA/NESCAC teams that must play 75+ over the course of 15-20 games. Less chance for injury, fresher legs, etc...
The way to beat Messiah is exactly how Tufts did it... Score early, defend well, and counter with excellent pace.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 17, 2015, 01:32:49 PM
QuoteThere's a reason why Messiah is so good and why they just continue to wear teams down game after game.
Yes, this is true. The main reason they consistently make runs on top of being an excellent team, is the benefit of an easy conference. The starters on Messiah average what, 60 minutes per game? That is a HUGE advantage compared to NJAC/UAA/NESCAC teams that must play 75+ over the course of 15-20 games. Less chance for injury, fresher legs, etc...
The way to beat Messiah is exactly how Tufts did it... Score early, defend well, and counter with excellent pace.
Lycoming seems to have them figured out...taking over from the years where York use to be the only team to give Messiah a good run for their money. Since 2013 Lycoming is 3-3 against the Falcons...2-3-1 if you count the PK win as a tie. Either way that is better than anyone else over the past 3 seasons. New rivalry in the making?
In 2013 Williams was by far the weakest of the 4 NCAA Semi-Finalists but they also were banged up with injuries. It also did not help that their Senior GK decided to turn in one of the worst performances of his college career. The 1st 10 minutes of that game which you can still bring up on NCAA.com really watch closely because Williams had 2 very good chances to score and they were playing nice possession futbol. Then Messiah scored on a horrific GK mistake and Williams never recovered. They were deflated and hung their heads. Hook line and sinker.
As far as Camden goes didn't they use a couple transfers from big boy Rutgers that year. I cannot say this enough that it is next to impossible to have continued success if any success being a part-time coach. You must have a real passion for what you are doing because it is basically your 2nd job and you certainly are getting no support from the school. How is a part-time coach supposed to recruit all spring and summer when it is his 2nd gig. You think Camden picks up his tabs? Now I have no idea but I am guessing he has a minimal budget if any for recruiting. That is why the sport is part-time to begin with, the school is basically saying HERE you students can have a program if you want but we are not putting resources into it and we also do not really care about it unless of course we are in the NCAA Final then the school President and AD can fly down to San Antonio and pretend they care.
I have been questioning for years why MIT is part-time. MIT with billions in resources could give 2 sh*ts about soccer and some of there other athletic programs. That is why they are running on their 5th coach in 8 years. Now the guy they have now I have no idea who he is but if you read his profile he looks to be retired from his other career. That might give him more time to put into it but it still doe snot take away the fact that the school could care less.
Camden had one transfer from New Brunswick and that was Connor Hurff, and then they landed Keegan Balle from Bradley/Syracuse. not sure why you even brought that up anyway. That's 2 players out of the 11 on the field. you did hit the nail on the head about the AD not caring about the program until they heard about how well they were doing. But no big boy transfers from Rutgers just a bunch of south jersey kids and one Midwestern chasing a ring that they were 6 minutes away from having a chance at getting.
I brought it up num-nutz because a school like Camden might need to rely on transfers and even JUCO's or maybe even 5th year seniors instead of a kid going to a prep-school for a PG year. If you read my post I was implying that you might have to get creative in recruiting to that school. I was not implying they won because of the transfers and even if they had who cares, you have to play to your advantages.
well thanks for making that so clear in your initial post.. no need to take it to heart
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
1. almost any Messiah team that did win it...they dominated championships with a classy style of play and players. Whichever was their best team i would put on top.
2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
3. UNC Greensboro dominated 80's
4. OWU- 1st Championship team
Interesting side note:3 current coaches in NJAC won it as players..Rutler (stockton @ Stockton), Baker (Rowan @ Rowan), East (RUN @ kean)
NO WAY...That 1998 OWU team was dominated by Williams in 1998 at OWU. They scored on a Gk error and were pinned in almost all game and very lucky to win that game. I would love to see an old boxscore from that game. Also, the Elite 8 match-up with Williams v SLU was the best game of that tournament and should have been the NCAA Championship. That was basically the same SLU side that went undefeated the following year and Williams snuck out of there in a snowstorm in penalties. Instant Classic. After that the Final 4 was like watching paint dry. OWU got the championship but no way that was an all time best team.
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
1. almost any Messiah team that did win it...they dominated championships with a classy style of play and players. Whichever was their best team i would put on top.
2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
3. UNC Greensboro dominated 80's
4. OWU- 1st Championship team
Interesting side note:3 current coaches in NJAC won it as players..Rutler (stockton @ Stockton), Baker (Rowan @ Rowan), East (RUN @ kean)
I heard once that the 1998 OWU team and its' 6 losses are the most a Martin coached team has had. Pretty insane if true. Even crazier that his "most loss" team is 1 of his 2 championship teams...
Unfortunately Trinity in 2007 didn't win it all (fell in PK's to Middlebury in final and finished with a 23-1 record because of it but they never trailed in a game the entire year and beat Messiah in the Final 4 in an absolute classic. 1 of the better games I've ever seen in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
1. almost any Messiah team that did win it...they dominated championships with a classy style of play and players. Whichever was their best team i would put on top.
2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
3. UNC Greensboro dominated 80's
4. OWU- 1st Championship team
Interesting side note:3 current coaches in NJAC won it as players..Rutler (stockton @ Stockton), Baker (Rowan @ Rowan), East (RUN @ kean)
Disagree... I'd have the 99 Messiah team that lost to SLU as an all time best team as well... And I think they lost in Elite 8. Camden should be considered because they had a 37 game win streak, with about half of those wins vs ranked opponents. Because they lost to arguably the best d3 team ever they don't get a look, gol2gol?
That 99 Messiah team also lost to a top 3 overall season that SLU had (if not best ever). They beat a one loss Etown team, then reigning champ OWU before falling 1-0 to SLU. Were a step away from a winner with an offsides goal.
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
Made it look easy? Bethany may have won the national title by the narrowest margin ever.
Bethany - 1994 NCAA Title RunFirst Round: Bethany 1, Greensboro 1 (2 OT - PKs)
Second Round: Bethany 1, Va. Wesleyan 0 (2 OT)
Third Round: Bethany 2, UC San Diego 2 (4 OT - PKs)
Semifinals: Bethany 0, Wis.-Oshkosh 0 (2 OT - PKs)
Championship: Bethany 1, Johns Hopkins 0
5 GP | 2-0-3 (.700) | 5 GF : 3 GA
Four overtime games.
Three ties / three advancements via penalty kick shootout.
Only regulation win came in title game againt Johns Hopkins who won all four previous tournament games by a single goal (W3-2 Elizabethtown, W1-0 (4OT) Muhlenberg 0, W1-0 Tufts, W1-0 TCNJ).
Granted, it was a very challenging path to the title (opponents records entering game with Bethany: Greensboro (15-2-0), Va. Wesleyan (18-1-1), UC San Diego (13-6-1), UW-Oshkosh (18-0-2), John Hopkins (17-2-3)), but doesn't appear they made it look easy looking at the results (I'll admit I didn't see them play).
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 18, 2015, 11:28:26 AM
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
1. almost any Messiah team that did win it...they dominated championships with a classy style of play and players. Whichever was their best team i would put on top.
2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
3. UNC Greensboro dominated 80's
4. OWU- 1st Championship team
Interesting side note:3 current coaches in NJAC won it as players..Rutler (stockton @ Stockton), Baker (Rowan @ Rowan), East (RUN @ kean)
Disagree... I'd have the 99 Messiah team that lost to SLU as an all time best team as well... And I think they lost in Elite 8. Camden should be considered because they had a 37 game win streak, with about half of those wins vs ranked opponents. Because they lost to arguably the best d3 team ever they don't get a look, gol2gol?
That 99 Messiah team also lost to a top 3 overall season that SLU had (if not best ever). They beat a one loss Etown team, then reigning champ OWU before falling 1-0 to SLU. Were a step away from a winner with an offsides goal.
You can't be "best" by definition if you didn't win it.
Best: excelling all others Excelling all others means winning it so that is the group to choose from. Camden's 37 game win streak is impressive but that would include Camden teams from 2 different seasons. No one team wins 37 games in a season. They can be in the conversation of " 2nd best teams that didn't excel all others". This site is the like the game 6 degrees of separation from RUC...lol.
Flying Weasel: correct those results didn't look easy and i may have overstated but they were good when i saw them play an early round game. They were good and those teams they played were all power houses back in the day (top 10).
1993 UC San Diego played like a Top 10 D1 Team. They had sick athletes and I think even played and beat 4-5 D1 and D2 teams out west. That was an all-time team.
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
Not sure how you can say you can't consider a team good who didn't win the whole thing. Camden lost to arguably the best D3 Messiah team to ever step on the field. that's like saying if Camden did win then that messiah team can't be considered an elite team.
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 18, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
The Elite 8 Messiah team that lost to Tufts last year is better than the Camden team that lost in the final in 2013.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 18, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
The Elite 8 Messiah team that lost to Tufts last year is better than the Camden team that lost in the final in 2013.
messiah had the same exact squad in 2014 as they did In 2013 so that's not really saying much
and I have to disagree anyway. that 2013 Camden squad would've won everything in 2014. especially with messiah getting beat in the elite 8.
How far back we going here? Ancients in play?
I think we are going back to 1974.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 18, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
The Elite 8 Messiah team that lost to Tufts last year is better than the Camden team that lost in the final in 2013.
messiah had the same exact squad in 2014 as they did In 2013 so that's not really saying much
Quote from: firstplaceloser on Today at 01:44:20 pm
and I have to disagree anyway. that 2013 Camden squad would've won everything in 2014. especially with messiah getting beat in the elite 8.
Commenting on the bold sections above...
It wasn't the exact same? They didn't have Josh Wood. And that Messiah team would have won the title if they didn't run into Tufts...so yes they would have beaten Camden...especially if, according to your logic, that Messiah team in 2014 was the same as 2013....which then leads me to say that the 2013 Messiah BEAT 2013 Camden and if 2014 Messiah is the same as 2013 Messiah then one would assume 2014 Messiah would also beat 2013 Camden....by your logic of course. My logic is that both 2013 and 2014 Messiah's were better than 2013 Camden.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 18, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
The Elite 8 Messiah team that lost to Tufts last year is better than the Camden team that lost in the final in 2013.
messiah had the same exact squad in 2014 as they did In 2013 so that's not really saying much
Actually, Messiah lost 4 key senior starters from that 2013 team which made a big impact on that 2014 team.
Quote from: KnightFalcon on November 18, 2015, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 01:37:41 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 18, 2015, 01:07:25 PM
Cannot help but Chime in.
From what I have heard from D3 soccer's most successful coach (6 rings) the Bethany 1994 Championship team was very legit with a whole lot of technical ability all though the squad.
I thing they get less respect than perhaps deserved because the pipeline/tradition/excellence did not continue after that team.
I also have to say that the 1998 Williams team was very Legit with some technical Jamaicans and came at a time when Williams was enjoying Camelot.
1999 Messiah team was also a very good team.
The 1997 Wheaton Championship team was historic as well.
Teams that never won the whole thing are still very impactful and should still be mentioned in my view (1982 Brazil).
The Richard Stockton Final 4 team of 1999 laid the groundwork for the 01 team's championship.
Ditto for Messiah's 1999 team.
The 1993 Williams team did the same for the Championship team in 1995.
It does take about a decade or so to really judge an alltime team in my view.
Trinity's 2003 squad is also worthy of much praise.
I think we will all look back in time and realize that Tuffts did something very special last season.
The Elite 8 Messiah team that lost to Tufts last year is better than the Camden team that lost in the final in 2013.
Wood, Meyer, and the 2 OB's correct?
messiah had the same exact squad in 2014 as they did In 2013 so that's not really saying much
Actually, Messiah lost 4 key senior starters from that 2013 team which made a big impact on that 2014 team.
your logic only makes sense if tufts never beat messiah. what I said was that Camden would've won the title in 2014 with messiah losing. that's my logic so go back and read what I said.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 02:33:37 PM
your logic only makes sense if tufts never beat messiah. what I said was that Camden would've won the title in 2014 with messiah losing. that's my logic so go back and read what I said.
Right, but you can't justify that because if Messiah played Camden say in the Sweet 16 to get to Tufts then Camden wouldn't have won. And since Messiah would have beaten Camden that also means Tufts would have beaten Camden as well since they beat Messiah. I know, I know, words are hard. Must be that NJ education.
2014 and 2013 were both better than the 2013 Camden team. One cannot say Camden would have won since Messiah lost because we don't know where they would have fell in the bracket. I watch the mid-atlantic teams a lot...as you can tell by my name hopefully ;)...and I am not a Messiah fan personally, but you have to respect the fact that they were the best team in the country the last 2 years and probably even more than the last two. This takes nothing away from Camden as they were also a phenomenal team that year.
taking shots about a NJ education is just stupid. what does that have to do with soccer. Anyway, all of our arguments involve a lot of IFs. I know messiah had amazing teams in 2013 and 2014. who knew so many people ride messiah now a days.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 18, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
2014 and 2013 were both better than the 2013 Camden team. One cannot say Camden would have won since Messiah lost because we don't know where they would have fell in the bracket. I watch the mid-atlantic teams a lot...as you can tell by my name hopefully ;)...and I am not a Messiah fan personally, but you have to respect the fact that they were the best team in the country the last 2 years and probably even more than the last two. This takes nothing away from Camden as they were also a phenomenal team that year.
I will always be partial to the 2013 Messiah team because of the Kenyon game (after which some Messiah players supposedly told some Kenyon kids that Kenyon would have won the title if they had gotten by Messiah). As noted, the 2013 team also had some players like Wood, Kremers, etc that were not around for 2014. And when talking about Camden you can't forget how good Loras was that year, and if I recall Loras was in pretty good control late, gave up a late goal, and that gave up somewhat of a fluke 60 yard free kick goal in OT. I don't know the deep history like some of you but I would guess that 2013 Messiah was right up there with the best ever.
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 02:50:23 PM
taking shots about a NJ education is just stupid. what does that have to do with soccer. Anyway, all of our arguments involve a lot of IFs. I know messiah had amazing teams in 2013 and 2014. who knew so many people ride messiah now a days.
Doesn't have anything to do with soccer...it has to do with you not understanding anything that anyone posts to you. And you didn't know Messiah had a big following now a days? Really? They are the greatest program in D3 soccer history. Of course they will have a loyal following. I am not a Messiah fan but I am also not stupid...Messiah was better both years plain and simple. And you my intelligent NJ friend are throwing out the IFs which lead to more IFs from other people responding.
Messiah in 2013 was the best team but not by far. and just because they told Kenyon they would've won doesn't mean anything. I forgot messiah knows everything and whatever they say goes. and messiah in 2014 was not the best team b/c they did not win the title. and loras were a very good squad actually they always have a good squad but they can't seem to catch any luck in the final four. Loras might have beaten messiah in the final with their depth but Messiah was well rested and had no injuries. like I said before messiah in 13 was amazing I never seen a front 5:6 as good as them. but Camden was right there with them all game. and it's not Camdens fault for the "fluke" goal going in. Loras goalie may have been drunk or something because that was terrible. I believe the game would've went to PKs if that goal didn't happen and who knows what would've happened. Shooter, my brain hurts after typing all these hard words. stupid NJ education
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 03:07:47 PM
Messiah in 2013 was the best team but not by far. and just because they told Kenyon they would've won doesn't mean anything. I forgot messiah knows everything and whatever they say goes. and messiah in 2014 was not the best team b/c they did not win the title. and loras were a very good squad actually they always have a good squad but they can't seem to catch any luck in the final four. Loras might have beaten messiah in the final with their depth but Messiah was well rested and had no injuries. like I said before messiah in 13 was amazing I never seen a front 5:6 as good as them. but Camden was right there with them all game. and it's not Camdens fault for the "fluke" goal going in. Loras goalie may have been drunk or something because that was terrible. I believe the game would've went to PKs if that goal didn't happen and who knows what would've happened. Shooter, my brain hurts after typing all these hard words. stupid NJ education
LOL. Well Messiah didn't win their conference that year due to a PK shootout so edge might have gone to Camden if they would have went to PKs.
Shooter I meant the semi final against loras would've went to PKs if the fluke goal never went in. I think whoever made the final Camden/loras would've given messiah a run for their money and went to OT either way.
and shooter where exactly did you get your education from?
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 18, 2015, 03:25:52 PM
and shooter where exactly did you get your education from?
Rowan
I am fairly certain that after too many years of watching a lot of D3 soccer, it is difficult to pick a best team ever. But as you all have demonstrated, there have been a handful of truly spectacular teams since '74.
Someone mentioned earlier that Trinity/Messiah match in 2007. For me, that was one of my top five matches I've ever seen on a D3 pitch. And watching it was like watching hockey on steroids - incredibly fast action. Those guys must have felt like they had played two matches that night.
Wheaton's '97 team was as good as you'll find for pure results; an easy run through everything...except...a draw with Hope in the regular season and an OT win over Ohio Wesleyan in the E8 (the only time I ever saw an OWU team pack it in and play a counter-style. Martin stated after the match that this was the only way to even have a chance against that Wheaton team).
2001 Stockton team was legit, would of loved to see them play Messiah in the final at Messiah but Redlands got past the Falcons in the semi's. I believe Messiah had a couple injuries that game that might of hurt them.
Stockton had 0 goals against the whole tournament until the final. The final was played in some sloppy weather as well so that made the game quite interesting. They went 25-1-1 that season and the 25 wins I believe still stands as the most wins in a season for any division. Their loss was a regular season 1-0 loss against Rowan @ Rowan but went along and beat Rowan twice that season, once in the NJAC tournament and once in the NCAA tournament. Their tie was to Ohio Wesleyan in the final four that they got through on pk's.
NJAC was crazy that year Rowan, Stockon, and Kean all ended the regular season conference schedule with an 8-1 record.
1999 St. Lawrence - Hands down the best team in Division III history. I'm surprised more people are not talking about that group. They were incredible. Player for player there has never been a better team assembled in Division III history. There were 8-9 professionals that came out of that group. Danny Annan, Ali Montacer, Jamal Ballantyne, Scott Dulay, Ryan Carruth, Nick Hillary, Allan Maragh, Brendan Murphy, Eric Harms. These guys were unreal.
You can put 1999 St. Lawrence into it's own category, and then talk about who might be the second best team of all time, but there has never been a DIII team even close to that 1999 SLU team.
Quote from: soccerplayedwell on November 19, 2015, 06:46:22 PM
1999 St. Lawrence - Hands down the best team in Division III history. I'm surprised more people are not talking about that group. They were incredible. Player for player there has never been a better team assembled in Division III history. There were 8-9 professionals that came out of that group. Danny Annan, Ali Montacer, Jamal Ballantyne, Scott Dulay, Ryan Carruth, Nick Hillary, Allan Maragh, Brendan Murphy, Eric Harms. These guys were unreal.
You can put 1999 St. Lawrence into it's own category, and then talk about who might be the second best team of all time, but there has never been a DIII team even close to that 1999 SLU team.
Valid point - I watched that 1999 final against Wheaton and was impressed with the athleticism and skill level of that team compared to a pretty good Wheaton team. Looks like their toughest game that year was 1-0 over a Messiah team that would win their first title the following year.
Quote from: Gol2Gol on November 18, 2015, 10:41:22 AM
Camden is never going to win a sportsmanship award or be accused of having a nice bunch of kids (even by NJAC standards). That starts and ends on the sidelines...
Back to the topic. I think we can take Camden or any team who didn't win the National Championship should be out of the equation. I believe you have to win it to be considered.
1. almost any Messiah team that did win it...they dominated championships with a classy style of play and players. Whichever was their best team i would put on top.
2. 94' Bethany- had a bunch of Gambian national team players and a one year wonder team that made it look easy.
3. UNC Greensboro dominated 80's
4. OWU- 1st Championship team
Interesting side note:3 current coaches in NJAC won it as players..Rutler (stockton @ Stockton), Baker (Rowan @ Rowan), East (RUN @ kean)
That OWU team lost 6 games. They have had teams that were better - 2000 being the one I thought was best.