2016 SCHEDULE
WNEC @ Brandeis
@ Brandeis
Alvernia @ Eastern
Vs Lycoming
@ Stevens Tech
Vs Hopkins
@ Stockton
@ McDaniel
@ WAC
Vs Gettysburg
Vs RUC
@ Dickinson
@ Scranton
@ Muhlenberg
@ F&M
Vs Ursinus
@ Swarthmore
2015 Combined record of 187-110-36: 0.615
Using NCAA weighted formula for H/A: 0.664
Haverford was one of the top teams in the nation last season and if they did not run into Oneonta St, a title could have been possible. For 2016 they only lose three starters, BUT those three just happened to be AA and Regional AA players; Yarosh, B.Seitz, C. Seitz. Yarosh (a legitimate POY candidate) and B. Seitz combined scored 25 and assisted 9 of the teams 56g and 42a. C. Seitz was a big part of the defense...
Assuming no transfers or academic ineligibility the team still returns:
M Corkery 22-22 SR 1st team D3 AA, 1st team NSCAA Region, 1st team CC
F Walcott 22-22 SR Honorable mention CC (2014,2015)
D Carr 22-16 SO
M Nicholson 22-22 JR
D Willigan 21-21 SR 2nd team CC
D John 22-22 SO
D Clark 18-17 SO
GK Miller 22-22 SR Honorable mention CC
In 2015, Haverford started out the season 2-3 with losses to Stevens, Wesleyan, and MSU... then won 16 straight.
2016 might be deja vu with Brandeis, Lycoming, Stevens, Hopkins, and Stockton in the first 7 games.... How will this team respond with nearly half of scoring production gone and a leader in the back out. The Fords should have some strong recruits coming in, but will that be enough to get them past the Elite teams.
PROJECTION: CC Regular Season Champ and Conference Champion
BEST CASE SCENARIO: Final 4
WORST CASE SCENARIO: Loss in second round of NCAA Tournament
The Centennial is a tough conference, the non-conf games are even stronger... SOS should be incredibly high (top 3-5 projected in the nation, IMO). What are your thoughts? Is there anyway this team could miss out on the tournament?
An entire thread dedicated to Haverford...interesting ;)
I see them racking up 13 wins, 3 losses and 1 tie. You can pick and choose who the losses and ties are too but I will go with losses to Brandeis, Lycoming, & F&M and a tie with Stevens Tech.
Best case scenario is making the title game and the worst case scenario is missing NCAA's all together. Centennial is always a toss up. Still amazes me that they didn't tie a game last year. Will be fun to watch it play out.
LGOTB, A key injury or two would seem like the only big potential obstacle. Cannot lose Corkery (or Walcott).
Too bad Kenyon couldn't pick up a game with Haverford on the road trip to DC. Both teams should be in the top 5 mix for most of the season, with the Lords only losing 1 senior from last year's squad.
Haverford is a very good team who is on the upswing...
The next two seasons will be key for the program.
To make Final 4 they must host the Sweet 16 Pod (As they did last year).
This is the team that looks most like becoming the regional power that Messiah was (not that Messiah has given anything up) Lycoming is also in this conversation.
They beat SLU in the sweet 16 last year, then lost to team with a similar style (Oneonta) the day after to miss out on first final 4.
This is a ball playing team and should make noise.
I cant help but think last year was the year for this team to make the final 4 though.
The season cannot get here soon enough.
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
So are you saying that Coach Rineer & his staff should be given credit for the job he has done in his 5 years at Haverford?
2011- 11-6-2 (Conference final loss to Dickinson)
2012- 12-8-1 (Conference Champs/2nd Round NCAA)
2013- 11-5-2 (Centennial Regular Season Champs)
2014- 11-7-1 (Conference loss to Muhlenberg)
2015- 18-4 (Conference Champs/Undefeated 11-0/NCAA Elite 8/Top 3 seed)
If true about their SOS they have their hands full this year.
Quote from: backyarddawg on April 28, 2016, 01:03:24 PM
So are you saying that Coach Rineer & his staff should be given credit for the job he has done in his 5 years at Haverford?
2011- 11-6-2 (Conference final loss to Dickinson)
2012- 12-8-1 (Conference Champs/2nd Round NCAA)
2013- 11-5-2 (Centennial Regular Season Champs)
2014- 11-7-1 (Conference loss to Muhlenberg)
2015- 18-4 (Conference Champs/Undefeated 11-0/NCAA Elite 8/Top 3 seed)
If true about their SOS they have their hands full this year.
Those overall stats over 5 years don't blow me away, but yes, I think a coaching staff deserves a ton of credit that can get a school like Haverford to within an eyelash of the Final Four and that was legitimately one of the very top teams in the country. Sweet 16 or better in two out of the next 3-4 years would be impressive.
I do agree with Saint of Old. One wonders if last year will end up having been their best chance.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
1200 students...
About the size of St. Lawrence for the last 20 years... does not seem to be a deterrent so long as about 20-30 have good foot skills and a decent engine :)
Quote from: Saint of Old on April 28, 2016, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
1200 students...
About the size of St. Lawrence for the last 20 years... does not seem to be a deterrent so long as about 20-30 have good foot skills and a decent engine :)
Really? I thought SLU had 2300+ students. Big difference. Even the LACs that are 1650 to 2000 range have much more leeway than an extremely selective school like Haverford with only 1200 (which also IIRC doesn't give coaches as much leverage with admissions as even the NESCACs).
There is so much parity in the college game now that it's a toss up every year. I don't think school size will play much of a factor for a team like Haverford. You look at the Rochester schools like RIT and UR and they have 10k+ students and they aren't winning more than schools like Haveford or Messiah, etc.
Nothing wrong with Haverford getting some love in their own thread. With their schedule, I'm sure there will be a ton of traffic here. I said it maybe 3 years ago that Haverford would make the elite 8... and I believe I said Final Four last year mid-season when the Fords turned their hats backwards and went all Lincoln Hawk... It was not the final four, but close. They have the potential to get back there, but their window could be closing. The CC has been spreading success evenly throughout the years (6 different champions the last 7 years). We've seen Swat look dangerous in the past, Dickinson knocking on the door, Muhlenberg with a few up/downs, F&M has been on the rise...
Conference Champion AQ
Haverford (2015, 2012)
Muhlenberg (2014)
F&M (2013)
Dickinson (2011)
Swarthmore (2010, 2008),
JHU (2009, 2007, 2006).
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on April 28, 2016, 02:44:16 PM
There is so much parity in the college game now that it's a toss up every year. I don't think school size will play much of a factor for a team like Haverford. You look at the Rochester schools like RIT and UR and they have 10k+ students and they aren't winning more than schools like Haveford or Messiah, etc.
Ah, nothing like a good esoteric debate to hone one's posting skills 4+ months before the season opens!
I will maintain that Haverford faces significant challenges, one of them being the school size. Out of 1200, only roughly 600 are men. There are athletes for other sports. Haverford admissions isn't going to let in soccer classes of 10-12 kids and then let the coach see which 4-5 out of each class rise to the top. It's also very hard to get in, limiting the pool even further. On the plus side, Haverford is an extremely attractive school for good soccer players who are high-end students, but those don't grow on trees even though the youth soccer demographic certainly has more than their fair share of top-tier students. Among that pool of high academic soccer players looking at D3 Haverford of course is competing with some other extremely attractive schools, like most of the NESCACs and a good portion of the other schools in the Centennial. Given the overall attractiveness and reputation of the school, there's got to be some reasons why Haverford historically has not been at a powerhouse level. They are doing a great job there now, but the odds are against them having a run of 5 or more consecutive NCAA appearances. That's in part why I would place a bigger bet on a program like Tufts -- significantly bigger, the NESCACs tends to be big on athletics more so than Haverford/Swat, etc.
Rochester, while perhaps not elite level, has been a consistently strong soccer program for a number of years. Their enrollment is in the 5500-6000 range. RIT is over 10K. Certainly being a bigger school guarantees nothing but it does create more room for bringing in a higher number of recruits and for potentially stretching admissions standards a little more than a school like Haverford, that, again, due to its size, has a real squeeze in terms of admissions. As I suggested before, even other small schools with 1800-2000 students have more flexibility (and room) tha one with 1200.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 03:35:24 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on April 28, 2016, 02:44:16 PM
There is so much parity in the college game now that it's a toss up every year. I don't think school size will play much of a factor for a team like Haverford. You look at the Rochester schools like RIT and UR and they have 10k+ students and they aren't winning more than schools like Haveford or Messiah, etc.
Ah, nothing like a good esoteric debate to hone one's posting skills 4+ months before the season opens!
I will maintain that Haverford faces significant challenges, one of them being the school size. Out of 1200, only roughly 600 are men. There are athletes for other sports. Haverford admissions isn't going to let in soccer classes of 10-12 kids and then let the coach see which 4-5 out of each class rise to the top. It's also very hard to get in, limiting the pool even further. On the plus side, Haverford is an extremely attractive school for good soccer players who are high-end students, but those don't grow on trees even though the youth soccer demographic certainly has more than their fair share of top-tier students. Among that pool of high academic soccer players looking at D3 Haverford of course is competing with some other extremely attractive schools, like most of the NESCACs and a good portion of the other schools in the Centennial. Given the overall attractiveness and reputation of the school, there's got to be some reasons why Haverford historically has not been at a powerhouse level. They are doing a great job there now, but the odds are against them having a run of 5 or more consecutive NCAA appearances. That's in part why I would place a bigger bet on a program like Tufts -- significantly bigger, the NESCACs tends to be big on athletics more so than Haverford/Swat, etc.
Rochester, while perhaps not elite level, has been a consistently strong soccer program for a number of years. Their enrollment is in the 5500-6000 range. RIT is over 10K. Certainly being a bigger school guarantees nothing but it does create more room for bringing in a higher number of recruits and for potentially stretching admissions standards a little more than a school like Haverford, that, again, due to its size, has a real squeeze in terms of admissions. As I suggested before, even other small schools with 1800-2000 students have more flexibility (and room) tha one with 1200.
Admissions doesn't say "Hey Haverford Men's Soccer you are only allowed to bring in 6 players this class." It's dependent on a lot of other factors. If a team graduates 10 guys then they will more than likely need to bring in a bigger class. The school won't deny these kids or you won't have a team. But if they graduate 2 players then they probably don't need to bring in 10-12 players either. It's a numbers game and ultimately comes down to the philosophy of the coach. Do you want 15 freshman coming in and have to rely on them to be impact players or do you bring 12 in the class before and have them be ready to go when they are sophomores? It's not up to admissions to decide that and the more success a team has then the school becomes more attractive for these players and it's great marketing for the school and the admissions office.
So I guess I am just confused why you think bigger is better in this case? I get the point you are aiming at but I don't think it's necessarily true or as big a factor as you are making it out to be.
If we just look at Sweet 16 teams from this past season and compare undergrad population...
Amherst=1800
Lycoming=1400
Brandeis=3600
Trinity=2300
Haverford=1200
St. Lawrence=2400
Oneonta=5800
MIT=4500
Loras=1600
DePauw=2400
St. Olaf=3000
Wheaton(Ill)=2500
Tufts=5000
Kenyon=1700
F&M=2300
Calvin=4000
A school with 1800 kids won the national title against a school with 1600 kids...none of those are "high population" schools like you are referring to.
It comes down to how good the coach is at recruiting, establishing a culture, and building up the program. School size is the last thing on a coaches mind during the process of getting a team ready for a season.
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/sports/ncaafootball/21haverford.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/sports/ncaafootball/haverford-debates-impact-of-athletics.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/sports/ncaafootball/admissions-and-the-cold-slap-of-rejection.html
In one or more of the articles a typical year is described as 15% of total matriculants being recruited athletes with a reference to 55 athletes (including some not recruited who got in totally on their own) out of a class of 315. That's 55 kids spread out across 21 total teams (male and female).
No suggestion that it happens in Hford soccer recruiting, but there are some very agitated lacrosse parents whose kids applied ED to Hford after positive prereads, and were rejected -- while the complaint there is that the lax coach does a poor job communicating with his recruit families, that admissions dynamic does suggest that Men's Soccer cannot sit back and relax about their guys getting in. So the fact that they have done well with the players who do get in -- who may or may not be the same group Coach has on his list -- does say something about the program.
(parent of an incoming D3 player to another program, have learned a lot about recruiting from this site. This just may be my first actual post, so be kind . . . )
A school with 1800 kids won the national title against a school with 1600 kids...none of those are "high population" schools like you are referring to.
It comes down to how good the coach is at recruiting, establishing a culture, and building up the program. School size is the last thing on a coaches mind during the process of getting a team ready for a season.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:59:39 pm by Shooter McGavin »
Couldn't have said it better Shooter!!
D3soccer.com did well to recognize his talent last year by giving him a 1st Team AA spot, but I thought that it was crazy that Corkery didn't get AA from NSCAA last year. 9 goals, 13 assists, and often the difference in big games, particularly the Centennial Conference tourney when he scored the winner against Dickinson with 20 seconds left from a free-kick. He will be dangerous again this year.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 05:16:48 PM
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
I gave you the karma hit not Shooter so you can apologize to him later, and I agree with Saint of Old and Shooter as well. Does Haverford face some challenges like you mentioned? Of course they do. But they are not the only school that faces challenges. And you insinuated that schools with a larger population are more successful because they have more to choose from. So sure you may not have said that but it's what you clearly insinuated. With that being said, this is not high school so bigger schools doesnt mean you have more to choose from...this is college and more than likely most teams are trying to recruit a lot of the same kids. Coaches get to hand pick the kids they want they aren't just given a random draw. So Shooter and Saint of Old have very valid points when they say and agree upon a 1800 population school defeated a 1600 population school for the title. And arguably the other two smaller schools in Haverford and Lycoming could have easily made it to the final 4 if they weren't unlucky with the draw. Lycoming a 1400 population school lost to the 1800 population Amherst who eneded up winning it. Haverford loses to a loaded Oneonta team but not because they were one of the bigger schools. School size does not matter at the end of the day. If that were the case then Haverford, Lycoming, Loras, Amherst, and Kenyon wouldn't have all been top 10 nationally ranked and in the Sweet 16........
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on May 02, 2016, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 05:16:48 PM
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
I gave you the karma hit not Shooter so you can apologize to him later, and I agree with Saint of Old and Shooter as well. Does Haverford face some challenges like you mentioned? Of course they do. But they are not the only school that faces challenges. And you insinuated that schools with a larger population are more successful because they have more to choose from. So sure you may not have said that but it's what you clearly insinuated. With that being said, this is not high school so bigger schools doesnt mean you have more to choose from...this is college and more than likely most teams are trying to recruit a lot of the same kids. Coaches get to hand pick the kids they want they aren't just given a random draw. So Shooter and Saint of Old have very valid points when they say and agree upon a 1800 population school defeated a 1600 population school for the title. And arguably the other two smaller schools in Haverford and Lycoming could have easily made it to the final 4 if they weren't unlucky with the draw. Lycoming a 1400 population school lost to the 1800 population Amherst who eneded up winning it. Haverford loses to a loaded Oneonta team but not because they were one of the bigger schools. School size does not matter at the end of the day. If that were the case then Haverford, Lycoming, Loras, Amherst, and Kenyon wouldn't have all been top 10 nationally ranked and in the Sweet 16........
Apologies to Shooter, and perhaps you can explain what you found so noxious as to warrant negative karma. If I was going to give you negative karma in this instance it would be for lack of precision. Perhaps you are too invested in whatever your reaction is about to go back and engage in a fair reading, but I'll hope that you can.
This was my first post on the topic of Haverford facing a unique challenge....
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
There is no reference to or any insinuation related to "high population" schools, and remember I was explaining why Haverford might have difficulty sustaining very high success beyond a 3-5 year run.
The very next thing that happened was Saint of Old posting "1200 students...About the size of SLU the past 20 years." Now perhaps he was half-joking, but I don't consider DOUBLE the size "about the same size." Now perhaps after that I referred to big schools having an advantage. Except I didn't. My comparison was directly to other very small, but not as small, schools. I wrote: "Even the LACs that are 1650 to 2000 range have much more leeway than an extremely selective school like Haverford with only 1200 (which also IIRC doesn't give coaches as much leverage with admissions as even the NESCACs)."
You then raised the issue of big schools for the very first time in the entire discussion with your post about UR and RIT. In my response, I again focused almost exclusively on the NESCAC and Centennial, which are mostly small schools, and I underscored and focused further on how even among small schools an extra 400-600 students might make a difference. Just to expand on that for one second, let's say that Haverford on average brings in 6 recruits per year. With even an extra 400 students to go to 1600, it's certainly reasonable to think the coach might be able to bring in an extra 3-4 recruits per year. Could that make a difference in their program? I'm going to say yes. Then, in correcting you about the size of UR, I did say that bigger schools have more room to bring in bigger classes and often may have more lax admissions standards because of greater numbers leeway, but I was very careful to say "that guarantees nothing." In concluded that post by going back to other small schools and reiterating that a school with 1800 probably has a little more flexibility than a comparable super-elite LAC with only 1200.
In my next two posts on the topic I offered more detail about why recruiting at Haverford might be challenging, and indeed I linked to what was a six-part series in the New York Times focusing on the difficulties in elite D3 recruiting, and guess which school was the focus of that six-part series in the New York Times? Yep, little 'ol Haverford. You won't find any rants or insinuations about "high population" schools and such schools were not even in the discussion at all until YOU brought them up.
And yes, I don't think Haverford is the only school that is "uniquely challenged." I imagine getting people to Canton, NY is not always an easy sell. Not everyone embraces the weather in Rochester, NY. Guidebooks describe Kenyon as literally "in the middle of nowhere" and some wouldn't even consider it because of that. Some turn away from Bates because Lewiston is a little rough. We could go on and on. And, btw, I also included some of the things that make Haverford extremely attractive for potential recruits. My whole point was to credit Haverford for doing a great job, and to further point out that the Haverford coach doesn't get to say here are 10 guys I want and then gets them.
Haverford's schedule again impresses but I would say their 2015 schedule was a touch stronger. They will have a SOS of .610 or higher at the very least so all they need to do is get to 10 wins and make sure half of those are against good teams. They might sneak a double on that opening weekend as WNEC has dropped off and Brandeis I think will drop a bit at least early because they lost some serious leadership and will be a "young" squad next year. Actually if I were to bet on it now I would take the draw
I am shocked that Haverford is only 1200 students, I really thought they were up at 1800. What is the reasoning for this? There endowment must be one of the weaker ones in that conference. I have to agree with NCAC as with only 1200 students that will be very tough to keep this program going at the past few years rate unless Rineer gets 5-6 "tips" which I am sure they have some kind of system that Nescac's use. Academically, they fall in the Mid to Upper Nescac range picking up Williams and Amherst scraps. Doubtful they would compete with Middlebury and Bowdoin and Tufts because of facilities and the like. They most likely have a lot of crossover with Wesleyan.
Quote from: NCAC New England on May 02, 2016, 06:05:52 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on May 02, 2016, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 05:16:48 PM
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
I gave you the karma hit not Shooter so you can apologize to him later, and I agree with Saint of Old and Shooter as well. Does Haverford face some challenges like you mentioned? Of course they do. But they are not the only school that faces challenges. And you insinuated that schools with a larger population are more successful because they have more to choose from. So sure you may not have said that but it's what you clearly insinuated. With that being said, this is not high school so bigger schools doesnt mean you have more to choose from...this is college and more than likely most teams are trying to recruit a lot of the same kids. Coaches get to hand pick the kids they want they aren't just given a random draw. So Shooter and Saint of Old have very valid points when they say and agree upon a 1800 population school defeated a 1600 population school for the title. And arguably the other two smaller schools in Haverford and Lycoming could have easily made it to the final 4 if they weren't unlucky with the draw. Lycoming a 1400 population school lost to the 1800 population Amherst who eneded up winning it. Haverford loses to a loaded Oneonta team but not because they were one of the bigger schools. School size does not matter at the end of the day. If that were the case then Haverford, Lycoming, Loras, Amherst, and Kenyon wouldn't have all been top 10 nationally ranked and in the Sweet 16........
Apologies to Shooter, and perhaps you can explain what you found so noxious as to warrant negative karma. If I was going to give you negative karma in this instance it would be for lack of precision. Perhaps you are too invested in whatever your reaction is about to go back and engage in a fair reading, but I'll hope that you can.
This was my first post on the topic of Haverford facing a unique challenge....
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 12:20:17 PM
A long-term challenge for Haverford is just the tiny size of school. The combination of upper-tier NESCAC-level admissions difficulty and only 1200 students total I think will make sustained, high level success beyond a 3-5 year run (see other new thread) very, very difficult indeed. One huge take-home message....make the most of your opportunities when you get them. Nothing is guaranteed (as the cliche goes).
Love Haverford (the school), though. My second-favorite LAC ;).
There is no reference to or any insinuation related to "high population" schools, and remember I was explaining why Haverford might have difficulty sustaining very high success beyond a 3-5 year run.
The very next thing that happened was Saint of Old posting "1200 students...About the size of SLU the past 20 years." Now perhaps he was half-joking, but I don't consider DOUBLE the size "about the same size." Now perhaps after that I referred to big schools having an advantage. Except I didn't. My comparison was directly to other very small, but not as small, schools. I wrote: "Even the LACs that are 1650 to 2000 range have much more leeway than an extremely selective school like Haverford with only 1200 (which also IIRC doesn't give coaches as much leverage with admissions as even the NESCACs)."
You then raised the issue of big schools for the very first time in the entire discussion with your post about UR and RIT. In my response, I again focused almost exclusively on the NESCAC and Centennial, which are mostly small schools, and I underscored and focused further on how even among small schools an extra 400-600 students might make a difference. Just to expand on that for one second, let's say that Haverford on average brings in 6 recruits per year. With even an extra 400 students to go to 1600, it's certainly reasonable to think the coach might be able to bring in an extra 3-4 recruits per year. Could that make a difference in their program? I'm going to say yes. Then, in correcting you about the size of UR, I did say that bigger schools have more room to bring in bigger classes and often may have more lax admissions standards because of greater numbers leeway, but I was very careful to say "that guarantees nothing." In concluded that post by going back to other small schools and reiterating that a school with 1800 probably has a little more flexibility than a comparable super-elite LAC with only 1200.
In my next two posts on the topic I offered more detail about why recruiting at Haverford might be challenging, and indeed I linked to what was a six-part series in the New York Times focusing on the difficulties in elite D3 recruiting, and guess which school was the focus of that six-part series in the New York Times? Yep, little 'ol Haverford. You won't find any rants or insinuations about "high population" schools and such schools were not even in the discussion at all until YOU brought them up.
And yes, I don't think Haverford is the only school that is "uniquely challenged." I imagine getting people to Canton, NY is not always an easy sell. Not everyone embraces the weather in Rochester, NY. Guidebooks describe Kenyon as literally "in the middle of nowhere" and some wouldn't even consider it because of that. Some turn away from Bates because Lewiston is a little rough. We could go on and on. And, btw, I also included some of the things that make Haverford extremely attractive for potential recruits. My whole point was to credit Haverford for doing a great job, and to further point out that the Haverford coach doesn't get to say here are 10 guys I want and then gets them.
I can tell you are visibly upset so I boosted your karma for the good so you can have a relaxing weekend and for taking the 30 minutes to thoughtfully craft that post. +K
Quote from: Saint of Old on April 29, 2016, 10:14:08 AM
A school with 1800 kids won the national title against a school with 1600 kids...none of those are "high population" schools like you are referring to.
It comes down to how good the coach is at recruiting, establishing a culture, and building up the program. School size is the last thing on a coaches mind during the process of getting a team ready for a season.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:59:39 pm by Shooter McGavin »
Couldn't have said it better Shooter!!
I agree with this above post by Shooter and Saint of Old. There is never an equal playing field but that doesn't mean a team can't be successful. Time will tell but Leicester City did a good job of shattering the "more money, more titles" theme we have seen in the Premier League. They are similar to Haverford I guess, right?
School size is almost entirely irrelevant in today's college soccer. In the 1990's teams were competing with recruited players and walk-ons. Big schools had more walk-ons therefore there was a better chance that some of those kids could potentially help the team. In today's world, teams rarely even have walk-ons make the roster let alone actually contribute.
Also, take a look at the Mid-Atlantic regional rankings to get an idea of whether being an incredibly academic school helps or hurts you. Most of the best schools are high academics, why? Because they can draw all over the country, and have a strong sell against division 1 schools. Sure it hurts that so few kids can get into your school, but it also helps that kids from California are emailing you with an interest in your program.
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 05:16:48 PM
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
Never gave you a Karma hit. ??? Just because I don't agree with your take on the topic doesn't mean I am wrong or right. It's an opinion...
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on May 04, 2016, 11:42:15 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on April 28, 2016, 05:16:48 PM
Oh Shooter, I can see another interesting season is ahead. And thanks for the karma hit.
Where did I say that "high population" schools are the top programs? Where did I say coaches are thinking about school size when preparing for the upcoming season?
The point is that Haverford's extraordinary small size (by far the smallest on your list) IN COMBINATION with admissions selectivity and the values of the college presents a significant challenge. And in that light Rineer has done a phenomenal job with the program. Please find me even one example in the last ten years of Haverford bringing in 10+ recruits (excluding pure walk-ons). There was article a few years back, I think in the New York Times, about the difficulty that coaches at Haverford face with recruiting. A few sports could not get in their #1 recruits even when those recruits matched or exceeded the median stats for admissions for all students. Maybe this is being missed here, but I am giving tremendous credit to the coach and the program for the level of success achieved against tough odds.
I never said a small school couldn't be successful. The majority of D3s are small, but few are as small as Haverford with such difficult admissions standards. Loras is small, yes, but they will have as many as 45-50 kids on a roster....more than D1s with 40,000+ students. It's not just the size, but in Haverford's case, the size in combination with other factors related to the school is a major factor impacting the parameters the coaches there have to work within.
Never gave you a Karma hit. ??? Just because I don't agree with your take on the topic doesn't mean I am wrong or right. It's an opinion...
I just like to be reasonably accurate about what we're agreeing or disagreeing about, that's all. For instance, I agree with RH's post 100% in the other thread. Nothing he wrote in that post is antithetical to my posts in this thread. And I wasn't objecting to you disagreeing. I was objecting to your total distortion of what I wrote, which I explained in detail above.
Quote from: Mr.Right on May 02, 2016, 07:41:51 PM
Haverford's schedule again impresses but I would say their 2015 schedule was a touch stronger. They will have a SOS of .610 or higher at the very least so all they need to do is get to 10 wins and make sure half of those are against good teams. They might sneak a double on that opening weekend as WNEC has dropped off and Brandeis I think will drop a bit at least early because they lost some serious leadership and will be a "young" squad next year. Actually if I were to bet on it now I would take the draw
I know you are sort-off predicting .610.... I'd think more in the .630 range. Going by last years schedule results/records, .664
I very much enjoyed reading these posts as I am a Haverford alum and follow the sports teams-especially soccer and cross country. I think its worth noting a few things about the size issue and admissions. The Haverford endowment is the third largest in the CC (only Swat and JHU are larger) and though it is on the lower end of the New England schools, its lies pretty much in the middle of the group of say top 50 liberal arts schools. The College's president about a decade ago pushed very hard to increase enrollment from 1200 to 1800. This would have allowed adding more faculty not to mention students. The Haverford community vehemently opposed this idea citing the already ample number of courses and library facilities available especially in combination with Bryn Mawr and to a lesser extent Swat. The feeling was a lot of the close knit community advantages would be lost. Several people posting have, I think correctly noted that the difference between 1200 and 1600 or 1800 is large when you are trying to keep not only sports, but other activities and the honor code atmosphere going. Also, with regard to recruiting for men's sports, there are no reserved slots and there are more women than men in a class. The articles in the NYT convey the recruiting difficulty pretty well. It is amazing to me how well Haverford does in most sports. I am proud of the fact that intercollegiate soccer as we know it today began with a Haverford / Harvard matchup in 1905 (Haverford won 1-0).