http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2017-04-18/2019-2022-future-diii-ncaa-championship-sites (http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2017-04-18/2019-2022-future-diii-ncaa-championship-sites)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsplanningguide.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F05%2FMemorial-Coliseum-1.jpg&hash=fb59917eeafdf71e2d3a70fae2a8b3591b4efb23)
I like this one better. :)
http://d3hoops.com/notables/2017/04/men-championships-leave-salem
Quote from: gordonmann on April 18, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
I like this one better. :)
http://d3hoops.com/notables/2017/04/men-championships-leave-salem
Sorry Gordon, didn't see your article before I posted.
'fess up, Gordo. You've been sitting on that "Salem ain't so" pun for awhile now in expectation of this possibility, haven't you? ;)
S'okay. It might not have been posted yet.
Greg, actually it came to me last night! :)
Anyway, nice job with the quick coverage. I've been impressed with how fast the d3sports.com staff has been all over this story -- especially since there's multiple sports involved, each with its own post-Salem ramifications.
We have quality sources and we work hard.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 18, 2017, 04:21:25 PM
We have quality sources and we work hard.
I can probably speak for everyone. We definitely appreciate your hard work!
The sense I've gotten from following D3Hoops.com in the past that while the NCAA was open to sites other than Salem, it would take a really impressive alternative for a move to happen. Maybe I'm overrating that feeling, or the NCAA became more open to a change, but I was wondering if anyone has insight into the decision-making process in choosing Fort Wayne over Salem.
It seems to me one big positive of Fort Wayne is the possibility of better attendance numbers less reliant on the traveling party from the participating schools. Fort Wayne puts the Final Four within easy (emphasis on easy) driving distance of a greater number of Division III fans, particularly those from conferences among the Division III attendance leaders.
I think the thought of the casual D3 fan or fans not associated with any of the Final Four teams attending the Final Four is really non-existent. I think a lot of schools have a hard time attracting their own fans to attend games, let alone the casual observer. I mean, I can say that it's an easy 5+ hour, 3-day weekend get away for me, but who else is going to say that?
I'm a Pointer fan and I'm 2+ hrs away from Stevens Point. Lakeland University, my alma mater, is 15 minutes away, yet I have a hard time getting motivated to drive out to the corn fields and watch them play. So, to ask a casual fan to drive an hour or more to see four teams they know nothing about...that's a lot to bank on. I mean, there's a reason L.A. can't hold a NFL team despite having millions of people in the area.
Quote from: ziggy on April 21, 2017, 11:41:11 AM
The sense I've gotten from following D3Hoops.com in the past that while the NCAA was open to sites other than Salem, it would take a really impressive alternative for a move to happen. Maybe I'm overrating that feeling, or the NCAA became more open to a change, but I was wondering if anyone has insight into the decision-making process in choosing Fort Wayne over Salem.
It seems to me one big positive of Fort Wayne is the possibility of better attendance numbers less reliant on the traveling party from the participating schools. Fort Wayne puts the Final Four within easy (emphasis on easy) driving distance of a greater number of Division III fans, particularly those from conferences among the Division III attendance leaders.
They seemed to emphasize not wanting to have one location synonymous with a championship anymore.
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships. On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2. Why not D3 men's?
On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports.
And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools. While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip.
Quote from: iwumichigander on April 27, 2017, 01:16:41 PM
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships. On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2. Why not D3 men's?
On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports.
And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools. While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip.
Except you don't know that women have struggled with the moving around concept. Ironically they are moving to four different sites in these latest decisions, but one topic that continued to pop up on Hoopsville this year was women's coaches and others (like the WBCA Executive Director) talking about finding a more permanent home like the men... and I am quite sure their two visits to Salem were trial balloons about (a) being in Salem and (b) being together with the men's event (even if in a different building at the same time). The women have had hit or miss experiences in the last ten years... most of them misses and really low attendance. Just because you see an event move around doesn't mean that is the better idea. Heck, Calvin announced that the last women's final four was going to be the last one they hosted (maybe for all sports). Virginia Wesleyan and others have not put back in to host basketball. There isn't as much interest as people think.
As for qualifying for sectional and regional events in other sports - I don't think there is any correlation between getting a basketball final four and hosting something else... or having a team qualify for another event. None. I just don't see it.
And don't compare this to D1... because D1 is about something completely different then the fact the event is or isn't in Salem for DIII. There is a TON of money outside of the final four in DI that cities clamor to get their hands on. It is a week long event. That just doesn't happen in DIII and you aren't going to get the same economic boost you get in DI which only goes to big cities.
And DII has moved around a little bit, but not a lot. My memory says they have basically been to the same cities for the most part. What happens in DII and I doesn't necessary equate to DIII ... nor the other way around, either.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 27, 2017, 03:15:12 PM
Quote from: iwumichigander on April 27, 2017, 01:16:41 PM
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships. On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2. Why not D3 men's?
On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports.
And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools. While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip.
Except you don't know that women have struggled with the moving around concept. Ironically they are moving to four different sites in these latest decisions, but one topic that continued to pop up on Hoopsville this year was women's coaches and others (like the WBCA Executive Director) talking about finding a more permanent home like the men... and I am quite sure their two visits to Salem were trial balloons about (a) being in Salem and (b) being together with the men's event (even if in a different building at the same time). The women have had hit or miss experiences in the last ten years... most of them misses and really low attendance. Just because you see an event move around doesn't mean that is the better idea. Heck, Calvin announced that the last women's final four was going to be the last one they hosted (maybe for all sports). Virginia Wesleyan and others have not put back in to host basketball. There isn't as much interest as people think.
As for qualifying for sectional and regional events in other sports - I don't think there is any correlation between getting a basketball final four and hosting something else... or having a team qualify for another event. None. I just don't see it.
And don't compare this to D1... because D1 is about something completely different then the fact the event is or isn't in Salem for DIII. There is a TON of money outside of the final four in DI that cities clamor to get their hands on. It is a week long event. That just doesn't happen in DIII and you aren't going to get the same economic boost you get in DI which only goes to big cities.
And DII has moved around a little bit, but not a lot. My memory says they have basically been to the same cities for the most part. What happens in DII and I doesn't necessary equate to DIII ... nor the other way around, either.
Maybe you both are right, to a point. I was think the same thing you were thinking, Dave: there is not a lot of money to be made and economic impact to be enjoyed by hosting these events. I also do not think these events will be well attended by neutral fans regardless of where you host it. While almost every school has their base of hardcore fans at the D3 level (some more than others), there are very few schools that have large followings. And few of those hardcore fans -- regardless of school -- are going to attend a D3 Final Four. What we are expecting is for a town to adopt the event and it becomes THE thing to do that weekend for a significant amount of people. Unfortunately, I just do not see that happening. I did not see it happen in Salem and I do not think it will happen in Fort Wayne or anywhere else. My prediction goes for the Stagg Bowl too.
So, that being from where I am coming, why move it and rotate it on a regular basis? All I can think is that they will get bids from second and third tier cities (your Ft Waynes, Cantons, Scrantons, Eries, Toledos, etc) with a pressure and a desire to book a couple nights in their new or remodeled civic centers and fill a few hotel rooms and as part of the NCAA's Bid Packets, the NCAA will require that they find and guarantee x dollars of corporate sponsorship, y dollars of ticket sales and other perks for the team. They do that a few times, maybe the cities think it is worth bringing it back, maybe they walk away and refuse to re-bid.
So, while I do not think the "NCAA is spreading the wealth" because, as Dave said, there is no wealth to be spread, I do think that this method could allow them to get more bids and more attractive bids from people who think these events are something they are not or who have the ego to think that they will be able to make the event bigger than it is. This could keep the NCAA in a better financial position than dealing with a consistent host city that can come back to them and say "the economics are just not working."
We all love D3 athletics on here but most of us are also very much aware that the crowd for these championships, for the most part, will always consist of the two schools' fans. People who think that 8,000 neutral fans are showing up in Canton for a non-Mount Union/OAC/NCAC Stagg Bowl are not being honest with themselves. Same with Fort Wayne for basketball and, frankly, same for Salem.
Good stuff, OJC. +k
Reading the local newspaper coverage (http://www.news-sentinel.com/news/20170418/coliseum_adding_to_ncaa_resume_with_2020_womens_basketball_regional&profile=-1) in Fort Wayne, I saw that they estimate the financial impact of hosting the men's final four is $575,000 and the impact of hosting the Division I NCAA women's basketball regional is $1.2 million. The Fort Wayne MSA economy is $19.5 billion so neither of these events make a difference on their own.
I got the sense from reading information on the Fort Wayne and Detroit bids (they bid on the Stagg Bowl) that they were trying to position their cities for other larger events. "Let's show them we can do X and then maybe we'll get Y." From that perspective hosting a Division III final four might be a "loss leader" in a business strategy.
The real solution might be to move down a tier in terms of demographics, since, as OJC points out, a Fort Wayne (pop. 260,000, metro area pop. 420,000) is too big for there to be any economic impact (i.e., incentive to re-bid, unless it's to impress the NCAA with the long-term goal to land a D1 event) from hosting the D3 men's Final Four.
Looking at Indiana, the small cities of New Castle, Richmond, and Marion in the eastern part of the state (none of them very far from Fort Wayne) are each roughly Salem's size (in the 20,000-40,000 range), and each has a high school gym whose capacity is between 7,000 and 10,000 (yes, folks, Indiana takes high school basketball very seriously). In Ohio, Bowling Green (pop. 31,000) is close to the Ohio Turnpike and has D1 BGSU's Stroh Center (cap. 4,387). And Erie, PA (pop. 101,000) has Erie Insurance Arena (cap. 6,754).
Very interesting discussion on the move...
This may have already been stated, but I'll say that hosting a Division III tournament may be more about helping to bolster Fort Wayne as a regional event destination in general rather than as a stepping stone to hosting more NCAA events.
I used to help plan conferences for our regional professional association. I was always surprised to the extent to which a town like Rochester, Minnesota or Cedar Rapids, Iowa would go to bring a 200-300 person conference to town for two days. Cedar Rapids was, of course, one of the big winners in the latest round of tournament site selections.
Quote from: WUH on April 28, 2017, 02:47:28 PM
Very interesting discussion on the move...
This may have already been stated, but I'll say that hosting a Division III tournament may be more about helping to bolster Fort Wayne as a regional event destination in general rather than as a stepping stone to hosting more NCAA events.
I used to help plan conferences for our regional professional association. I was always surprised to the extent to which a town like Rochester, Minnesota or Cedar Rapids, Iowa would go to bring a 200-300 person conference to town for two days. Cedar Rapids was, of course, one of the big winners in the latest round of tournament site selections.
I've had the same experience. It always boggled my mind the lengths hotels and CVBs would go to woo me for 200 people. I guess a hotel night is a hotel night and those salepeople have to justify their salaries somehow.
I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.
And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.
What were the other two bids?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 01, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.
And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.
Come on, Dave . . . you know your
real concern is whether or not or not Visit Fort Wayne will sponsor Hoopsville. ;)
I do not disagree that Salem, simply due to familiarity with the event and the ability to "expect the unexpected" did a great job hosting the event(s). However, I do not think that they did anything that some other city/host could not do/replicate if they have the right staff in place and give it the attention it needs. There are some things with which I think Salem went over and above and exceeded expectations but I do not think they did anything that cannot be duplicated rather easily
Time will tell. I do think that due to the lack of revenue derived from D3 events, I am not sold on the rotation of D3 championships every two to four years. I think there is merit to this thinking but I question whether or not, in practice, there will be any benefit realized.
At the end of the day, these kids will be thrilled to win a championship wherever it is hosted. That said, and despite the best efforts of the NCAA, the host site, etc., it will feel like a big time
D3 event but not a big time event, generally. That is just not possible when you cannot pack a gym and you cannot attract non-participant school-related fans in large (or even mid level) numbers. Without that, there is only so much you can do.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 29, 2017, 08:58:03 AM
I've had the same experience. It always boggled my mind the lengths hotels and CVBs would go to woo me for 200 people. I guess a hotel night is a hotel night and those salepeople have to justify their salaries somehow.
Absolutely.
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.
Quote from: RogK on May 02, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.
The other game in that Lakers-Pistons series might have been played at Hamline. The Pipers hosted a few playoff games as the other venues the Lakers played at like the Minneapolis auditorium would get booked up for conventions.
Quote from: ziggy on May 01, 2017, 03:54:45 PM
What were the other two bids?
The only other bid that I had heard was in the final running was the Canton Memorial Civic Center.
Do you mean the existing Canton Civic Center or the to-be-built arena at the site of the Pro Football Hall of Fame? I know that venue is the one that was awarded the D3 volleyball final four in 2020 or 2021.
Quote from: RogK on May 02, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.
I remember reading in some book(magazine) about the Celtics that when they played in Fort Wayne, the train would leave them off some miles outside of town and they'd have to hitchhike into town. Shows how small time the NBA was in those days.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on May 02, 2017, 02:36:02 PM
Do you mean the existing Canton Civic Center or the to-be-built arena at the site of the Pro Football Hall of Fame? I know that venue is the one that was awarded the D3 volleyball final four in 2020 or 2021.
The one that's yet to come.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on May 02, 2017, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 01, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.
And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.
Come on, Dave . . . you know your real concern is whether or not or not Visit Fort Wayne will sponsor Hoopsville. ;)
I do not disagree that Salem, simply due to familiarity with the event and the ability to "expect the unexpected" did a great job hosting the event(s). However, I do not think that they did anything that some other city/host could not do/replicate if they have the right staff in place and give it the attention it needs. There are some things with which I think Salem went over and above and exceeded expectations but I do not think they did anything that cannot be duplicated rather easily
Time will tell. I do think that due to the lack of revenue derived from D3 events, I am not sold on the rotation of D3 championships every two to four years. I think there is merit to this thinking but I question whether or not, in practice, there will be any benefit realized.
At the end of the day, these kids will be thrilled to win a championship wherever it is hosted. That said, and despite the best efforts of the NCAA, the host site, etc., it will feel like a big time D3 event but not a big time event, generally. That is just not possible when you cannot pack a gym and you cannot attract non-participant school-related fans in large (or even mid level) numbers. Without that, there is only so much you can do.
Not worried about sponsorship at all. Not what drives me to be honest.
As for what other cities and hosts have to replicate... 75% of what they have to do by guidelines of the NCAA... was first done by Salem. Community Service, host families, mementos for student-athletes, etc., etc., etc. were items that Salem started doing on their own and now are mandated across all DIII championship sites and even some DII and DI sites. So replicating some of this is now because Salem already raised the bar. AS for the rest... we shall see... but my hopes are not high. I have been to many other championship sites in other sports including being behind the scenes for one... they weren't even on the same level as Salem.
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
As for rotating sites... there are some problems with what I am hearing behind the scenes. I am working on something, but from what I am gathering, I believe the men's committee was told erroneous information that forced them into a decision they didn't want to actually make.
Per the sites:
- Salem
- Fort Wayne
- Canton (from what I can tell)
- Fourth I can't get a name on
From what I can figure, I think the committee (outside of two individuals) at first wanted to return to Salem. Then the choice was two years at Salem (which would have given Salem a 25th) and two years at a soon to be built location (Canton from what I can tell). Then it was Fort Wayne. Working on details to confirm all of that.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.
Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.
I promise you... you would be very surprised at that answer. I know athletes on teams who can't compete who know that answer.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PMAnd per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I have to disagree with you here, D-Mac. Kids
will be thrilled to win wherever it is hosted, because that's what they play for. They play for the Walnut & Bronze, not for the experience in Salem. That's what this sport is about and always has been about: Winning the national championship. Even though all of the players in D3 know where the Final Four is held, for the vast majority of them the experience in Salem (the amenities, the programs, the social events, the location itself) is an unknown, anyway, because most players never get there a second time. Don't confuse the destination for the actual basketball games that are played there. When players talk about the fact that they "got to Salem", it's because "Salem" is their shorthand for "Final Four" (and now for the All-Star game as well). In other words, the name of the city has become a metonym for the D3 men's basketball Final Four, due to the length of time that it has been held there, just as "Omaha" is the metonym for the D1 College World Series and "Pasadena" is the metonym for the Rose Bowl ("Salem" has also become a metonym for the Stagg Bowl in D3 football.) It doesn't bestow any magic, or any compliments, upon the city itself in the minds of the players. Even if Salem had been a crappy host for the past 22 years, it would still be everybody's metonym for the Final Four.
I'm not particularly thrilled that the Final Four is moving out of Salem. Yes, the city's out of the way for the vast majority of D3 schools and fans, but travel is always going to be problematic for a lot of teams and fans even if the event is held in that geographical sweet spot in eastern Ohio and western Pennsylvania. Salem has proved its ability to not only host the event well, but, as you said, to also raise the standards by which the NCAA now expects its small-college championship hosts to conform. My fears are that: 1) once cities figure out that expectations are high, economic returns are low, and that hosting a small-college championship isn't necessarily a stepping stone to the grand prize of hosting a D1 March Madness weekend, bids will dry up; 2) two- or four-year hosting windows aren't long enough for the hosts to work out all of the kinks and get everything down to a smoothly humming annual routine, or to draw consistent sponsorship and media attention; 3) the All-Star game might end up being a casualty of the lack of on-site expertise necessary to run it; and 4) the NCAA might've killed the goose that laid the golden egg by rendering Salem unwilling or incapable of hosting the event up to its current sterling standards should D3 decide to return the Final Four there once the Fort Wayne contract is up.
I would've been mollified about the move if the Fort Wayne contract was longer; say, six to eight years.
The NCAA has to change it's way of doing business to have it be a six or eight year contract... and that would also fly in the face of those who pushed to get out of Salem with their excuse that the championships shouldn't have a semi-permanent home.
I am working on this a bit, but from what I have been gathering, some voices at the NCAA put together BS reasons that are really hypocritical in the long run just to say they moved the championships out of Salem. Every excuse or reason I have been told so far doesn't hold any water.
And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms. We use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms.
Well, of course they don't. The women's Final Four is so peripatetic that it has no ongoing identification with any one locale. Language is all about ease of communication, which means that the speaker and the listener have to have the same understanding of the meaning of a term. The whole reason why a metonym works is because one noun becomes associated with another over a long period of time in everybody's minds. That bestows the ability to refer to one by naming the other and having the listener or reader readily make the unspoken connection. When I use "the White House" as a metonym for the current presidential administration, I don't have to then explain to you that I'm substituting one noun to mean a different noun. The White House has been the home of American presidents and the seat of the executive branch of the U.S. government for over 200 years now, so everybody automatically understands the metonym. But if you had attempted to use "Grand Rapids" as a metonym for the women's Final Four this past season you would've been met with blank stares from most women's players and coaches, because there is no historical tie between that locale and the women's Final Four. Indeed, you
can't effectively use a locational metonym for the D3 women's Final Four, because the women's Final Four has been nomadic from its outset in 1982; only once has it stayed in one place for more than a couple of years, and that was a mere three-year stint in Danbury, CT from '99 thru '01.
I never said that men's basketball players don't use the term "Salem". In fact, I told you
why they use it. Metonymy is such a common function in the English language that we typically never give it a second thought.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PMWe use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.
Again, you're simply reinforcing my point. You have to resort to using the metonym because your use of the actual noun itself is outlawed for copyright reasons.
Well we also want to be fair... we can use Final Four as final four and we could say on the road to the championship... but to be fair because there is "On the Road to Salem" being used... it is only fair to place it for women as well. I probably say the women's town only 25% of the time in the course of the last 20 years.
It's probably hard for you every year on Hoopsville to even remember off of the top of your head where it's located that particular season. The D3 women's basketball Final Four is the college-sports equivalent of Whack-a-Mole. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
It's probably hard for you every year on Hoopsville to even remember off of the top of your head where it's located that particular season. The D3 women's basketball Final Four is the college-sports equivalent of Whack-a-Mole. ;)
Trust me... if you listen or watch carefully enough... there are times you may see me hesitate as I try and remember which city we are headed to this year or which city we were at least year. I usually just dump to "championships" if I can get away with it. LOL
Sorry Dave, but as a very recent graduate from a D3 school and playing on the team, I know for a fact that nobody besides me 1) cared about other leagues or D3 standings (unless we were in the ORV category for the week, which was only once or twice) 2) knew how the Pool C bids worked or 3) knew were the final four was held. All of my teammates were really into our own conference (MIAC) and enjoyed watching their games due to the familiarity of the schools and players since we have played against some of them since High School. With that said, even when you start talking about close conferences (WIAC/UMAC) my teammates knew Northwestern and Stevens Point were probably going to be atop of the conference because that's where they have finished as of recent years, but they didn't follow the other conferences during the year. What I am trying to say is that due to the lack of recognizable schools/teams/conferences to the normal high school basketball player, D3 hoops for most players is limited in their minds to the immediate conference they play in. There will be outliers, for example all of the die hards we have on this board. Also teams that make the tournament regularly (St. Thomas/Wooster/Hope/Amherst/Augustana/etc.) might be more exposed to other conferences, teams and the workings of the NCAA tourney, but to say most of the players are on the team are that into the logistics of it all is probably far fetched. I agree with Greg that when they say "Salem" they are using it as metonym for the Final Four, due to their long standing connection. If the Final Four was held in Billings, Montana people would be ecstatic to get there and play for the championship. The players just want to win, wherever that may happen.
Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.
I think this is probably true. Players on teams with annual expectations of the final four as a possibility, the big schools from big conferences, they know where the title game is played, but I'd say most teams have no clue - the ones who know they won't have a .500 record or would be happy just to lose in the first round. Those teams generally aren't thinking about the final four - and they make up the majority of d3 schools. Sometimes, in covering d3, it's easy for us to lose perspective, since we mostly deal with those top teams.
I'd also imagine it depends on the coaches - those coaches who are really involved with the NABC or make trips to the final four anyway - they might use it as some kind of motivating factor - but I'm guessing it's not really a big thing most places.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 05, 2017, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.
I think this is probably true. Players on teams with annual expectations of the final four as a possibility, the big schools from big conferences, they know where the title game is played, but I'd say most teams have no clue - the ones who know they won't have a .500 record or would be happy just to lose in the first round. Those teams generally aren't thinking about the final four - and they make up the majority of d3 schools. Sometimes, in covering d3, it's easy for us to lose perspective, since we mostly deal with those top teams.
I'd also imagine it depends on the coaches - those coaches who are really involved with the NABC or make trips to the final four anyway - they might use it as some kind of motivating factor - but I'm guessing it's not really a big thing most places.
I think Ryan closer to the truth of the matter. Most schools set goals to win a certain number of games or win the conference; and, maybe get NCAA bid. I think there is a small number or percentage (hypothetically less the 10%) of the D3 population that sets annual higher goals beyond an NCAA bid.
Certainly in that small subset are "power conference schools" and perrinial Top 25 schools - this sunset knows what Salem means.
Minor quibble: ("hypothetically less than 10%") having goals that make them recognize "Salem". That would be roughly 40 schools. I dare say that basically ALL the players at ALL the schools in the 'power conferences' (whether or not they have realistic expectations of going themselves, the 'culture' of the conference would make them aware), PLUS the players at perennial top 25 schools or perennial Pool As - surely by now we are talking around 25%, not 'less than 10%'.
But, yeah, players at schools like Blackburn or Finlandia may not have the instant recognition of "Salem" that we fanatics do!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms.
Well, of course they don't. The women's Final Four is so peripatetic that it has no ongoing identification with any one locale. Language is all about ease of communication, which means that the speaker and the listener have to have the same understanding of the meaning of a term. The whole reason why a metonym works is because one noun becomes associated with another over a long period of time in everybody's minds. That bestows the ability to refer to one by naming the other and having the listener or reader readily make the unspoken connection. When I use "the White House" as a metonym for the current presidential administration, I don't have to then explain to you that I'm substituting one noun to mean a different noun. The White House has been the home of American presidents and the seat of the executive branch of the U.S. government for over 200 years now, so everybody automatically understands the metonym. But if you had attempted to use "Grand Rapids" as a metonym for the women's Final Four this past season you would've been met with blank stares from most women's players and coaches, because there is no historical tie between that locale and the women's Final Four. Indeed, you can't effectively use a locational metonym for the D3 women's Final Four, because the women's Final Four has been nomadic from its outset in 1982; only once has it stayed in one place for more than a couple of years, and that was a mere three-year stint in Danbury, CT from '99 thru '01.
I never said that men's basketball players don't use the term "Salem". In fact, I told you why they use it. Metonymy is such a common function in the English language that we typically never give it a second thought.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PMWe use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.
Again, you're simply reinforcing my point. You have to resort to using the metonym because your use of the actual noun itself is outlawed for copyright reasons.
Does anyone else catch the irony of this post? No one can use more words to express the idea of language brevity than Greg Sager. Period. Full stop.
Indeed. ;)
To the point about the number of teams that understand the notion of the road to Salem, I would say that if we wanted to, we could probably predict the likelihood that they would know base on the following five questions:
How many times the coach been to Salem as a coach and how many times he has been as a fan? How recently has he been and how many times has he been over the last 5 years? How often does he talk to Dave McHugh? How frequently does he watch Hoopsville?
I think that there's more to it than that. My guess is that Chuck is right about all of the players in certain power conferences being aware of the Salem metonym. North Park has fallen well short of qualifying for the D3 tourney throughout most of this decade, and it fell short again this season even though the Vikings were CCIW co-champs ... and yet I'm sure that the Vikings themselves have all been well aware of the idea that "Salem" = Final Four, because I know that they've heard that metonym from people besides me and I've heard them use it themselves. (And this was long before NPU star Juwan Henry went to Salem this year to play in the Reese's All-Star Game during the Final Four.)
I don't think that it's because of "culture", though, in the broader sense; I think that it's because of recent success by the league in getting to Salem. My suspicion is that the five appearances in Salem over the past six years by CCIW teams have sharpened awareness of the location of the Final Four for everyone who plays in that league. I would not be the least bit surprised if what I've observed at North Park also holds true for the players from Carthage, Millikin, and Wheaton, even though none of them have participated in any D3 tourneys during that timespan, either. Similarly, it wouldn't shock me if players from Hamilton, Colby, and Connecticut College, and from UW-LaCrosse, UW-Stout, UW-Eau Claire, and UW-Platteville, are all aware of the Salem metonym as well.
I do agree that there are other ways in which a team might learn to embrace the notion of Salem other than through the coach. I was just offering a way in which we might be able to predict those teams.
I had considered adding power conference affiliation, but either I am not as convinced of that point as you or I have a broader definition of power conference.
I was thinking about Case Western Reserve who had a great season a few years ago, but struggled at the end and just missed the tournament. I had read an article in one of the Cleveland area newspapers about the commitment the team had made the summer before. They players all committed to more time in the gym, skills and speed work etc in a way that went way beyond previous seasons. That team would not have known of any other UAA team getting to Salem. Is getting to Salem something they would have discussed? And, if so, would this have been because of the coach or might they have heard of it in other ways? There is no way to know of course.
Maybe a question could have been has a conference opponent made it to Salem in the past four years?
That's exactly why I stated it as "certain power conferences". While the UAA is undoubtedly a power conference, it has not been represented in Salem with regularity in recent years the way that the CCIW, the NESCAC, and the WIAC have.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
That's exactly why I stated it as "certain power conferences". While the UAA is undoubtedly a power conference, it has not been represented in Salem with regularity in recent years the way that the CCIW, the NESCAC, and the WIAC have.
I missed that...my mistake.
I interviewed Nathan Dennison, V-P for Sales at the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum. He was a leader on the Fort Wayne team that submitted the winning bid. If you're interested in this process or just learning more about the facility, it's worth a listen.
http://d3hoops.com/notables/2017/05/fort-wayne-dennison-interview
Good interview, Gordo ... and thanks for asking the question about whether or not Fort Wayne sees hosting the D3 men's Final Four as a springboard to drawing D1 men's basketball events. I must admit that I was taken a little aback at his candor in what was essentially an affirmative response.
Yeah. He paused for a second and then answered straight up. I appreciated that.
Here you go, 89pirate