http://www.d3football.com/notables/2017/04/ncaa-d3-cuts-stagg-bowl-ties-to-salem (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2017/04/ncaa-d3-cuts-stagg-bowl-ties-to-salem)
http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2017-04-18/2019-2022-future-diii-ncaa-championship-sites (http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2017-04-18/2019-2022-future-diii-ncaa-championship-sites)
Woodforest Bank Stadium- Shenandoah, Texas
(https://twcppto.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/dji00120.jpg)
Tom Benson Hall of Fame Stadium - Canton, Ohio
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffootballstadiumdigest.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F12%2FTom-Benson-Hall-of-Fame-Stadium-1024x541.jpg&hash=b2dbddefc894c4b14ab0e9d615750b6c46f5a140)
So much for the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"....
Quote from: ITH radio on April 18, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
So much for the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"....
This has been a discussion on numerous boards, and I for one don't really care that they moved the site. I would never to go Salem, VA in the late fall for a d3 football game unless Ithaca was playing in the game. That being said, I'm not going to Houston either. I might go to Canton though. That is just me though. I know Pat and the d3football.com crew loves Salem and I can appreciate their take on the topic, but for your average fan this really doesn't matter to me at all.
No. I don't think it matters to very many people at all. I agree with that. I also think Canton can provide an amazing experience for student athletes. I think Texas is silly, but who knows what the actual economics looked like? To me, this is a "grass is always greener" type thing. Salem simply got stuck as a long time incumbent until enough people started looking over the neighbor's fence.
Quote from: Jonny "Utes" Utah on April 18, 2017, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on April 18, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
So much for the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"....
This has been a discussion on numerous boards, and I for one don't really care that they moved the site. I would never to go Salem, VA in the late fall for a d3 football game unless Ithaca was playing in the game. That being said, I'm not going to Houston either. I might go to Canton though. That is just me though. I know Pat and the d3football.com crew loves Salem and I can appreciate their take on the topic, but for your average fan this really doesn't matter to me at all.
Did you read my take? Maybe you might be surprised at how I covered it.
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2017/04/next-stagg-bowl-host-has-lot-to-live-up-to
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 18, 2017, 04:20:47 PM
Quote from: Jonny "Utes" Utah on April 18, 2017, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on April 18, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
So much for the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"....
This has been a discussion on numerous boards, and I for one don't really care that they moved the site. I would never to go Salem, VA in the late fall for a d3 football game unless Ithaca was playing in the game. That being said, I'm not going to Houston either. I might go to Canton though. That is just me though. I know Pat and the d3football.com crew loves Salem and I can appreciate their take on the topic, but for your average fan this really doesn't matter to me at all.
Did you read my take? Maybe you might be surprised at how I covered it.
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2017/04/next-stagg-bowl-host-has-lot-to-live-up-to
No I'm not surprised. You have always made it clear that you appreciated Salem and the people who ran the championship events. You even outlined in this piece your article how the people in Salem have made this game into what it is today. I can appreciate it too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to Salem, VA in December to watch the Stagg Bowl.
I guess my question is this:
Did the NCAA do this for money?
The opportunity to make this a bigger game in terms of attendance? (The attendance figures have remained steady for the last 20 years)
To give other cities a chance? (was there politics involved?)
To expand the d3 product in areas of the country? (Trying to convince Texas small colleges to join NCAA d3?)
Woodforest Bank Stadium is about 30 minutes from downtown Houston and is the home field for The Woodlands High School where my daughter is currently a junior. When she was a frosh on the softball team, she had to attend a regular season game because her team was "running the flags" that night. After moving from New Jersey, this was my first Texas high school football game. The attendance that night was 10,000 ... a sellout. I don't know how this will translate into Stagg Bowl numbers, but the potential is there and The Woodlands High School is only 1 of 3 high schools to use this complex. Also keep in mind that this same site has hosted the NCAA DIII Swimming and Diving Nationals every other year since 2013. The large building in the south end zone is the swimming and diving complex. As far as facilities and location, I can't imagine that Salem could compete – and the NCAA committee was obviously already comfortable with the hosts because of the Swimming & Diving Nationals.
To give you an idea of the hype a regular season high school game gets in these parts (the stadium in the video is Woodforest Bank Stadium): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epYHnxEy7vA
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 11:52:01 AM
Woodforest Bank Stadium is about 30 minutes from downtown Houston and is the home field for The Woodlands High School where my daughter is currently a junior. When she was a frosh on the softball team, she had to attend a regular season game because her team was "running the flags" that night. After moving from New Jersey, this was my first Texas high school football game. The attendance that night was 10,000 ... a sellout. I don't know how this will translate into Stagg Bowl numbers, but the potential is there and The Woodlands High School is only 1 of 3 high schools to use this complex. Also keep in mind that this same site has hosted the NCAA DIII Swimming and Diving Nationals every other year since 2013. The large building in the south end zone is the swimming and diving complex. As far as facilities and location, I can't imagine that Salem could compete – and the NCAA committee was obviously already comfortable with the hosts because of the Swimming & Diving Nationals.
To give you an idea of the hype a regular season high school game gets in these parts (the stadium in the video is Woodforest Bank Stadium): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epYHnxEy7vA
It'll be an interesting experiment. I remain skeptical that the area will have an appetite for the Stagg Bowl that comes anywhere close to their appetite for Friday Night Lights (even though the game is probably going to be played on Friday, under the lights). But we'll see. I hope it's awesome- the bar has certainly been set high by the city of Salem.
Salem, Va population: 24,000
Greater Roanoke Valley population: 300,000
The Woodlands, TX population 110,000
Harris County population 4,100,000
Montgomery County population 566,000
The stadium is just outside Harris County
This also gives The Stagg Bowl a presence in what will eventually be the third largest city in the USA. Plenty of hotel space and restaurants. George Bush International Airport 20 minutes away. Being a local, I'll be interested to see how this event will be promoted in the upcoming months.
Appreciated Pat's retrospective (and perspective) on the move.
I found this on the OAC board and it sounds like it was mostly a facility related move:
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/ncaa-taking-stagg-bowl-and-div-iii-men-s-final/article_8d25888d-cfa6-5157-b87a-d25db9b4fea1.html
Interesting stats on the population. I think if you had the usual suspects like UMHB or Mount U coming to town it would get good coverage from the local press and generate interest from local fans since it's a nationally televised event.
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 01:11:20 PM
Salem, Va population: 24,000
Greater Roanoke Valley population: 300,000
The Woodlands, TX population 110,000
Harris County population 4,100,000
Montgomery County population 566,000
The stadium is just outside Harris County
This also gives The Stagg Bowl a presence in what will eventually be the third largest city in the USA. Plenty of hotel space and restaurants. George Bush International Airport 20 minutes away. Being a local, I'll be interested to see how this event will be promoted in the upcoming months.
That may also be a catch-22. Is it a boon for the event to be held in a major metro area...or does the event get drowned out in the background noise of a metro area that is on a D-III island? And kind of an island on the island situation at that. This isn't a slam dunk success for Shenandoah. I hope it works and I hope it's awesome. There's a lot of work to be done to make that happen though, iyam.
Quote from: ITH radio on April 19, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
...Interesting stats on the population. I think if you had the usual suspects like UMHB or Mount U coming to town it would get good coverage from the local press and generate interest from local fans since it's a nationally televised event.
UMHB is a three hour drive from here. I know, I have to go there this weekend for a girl's softball tourney. They better not count on UMHB coming to town in order to make this successful, as I doubt the average person in greater Houston could even tell you where UMHB is. What they do have is a major metropolitan area to draw on. What they need is a game plan to promote this.They should be able to draw on coverage from the local Houston NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox TV affiliates during the week leading up to the event.
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on April 19, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
...Interesting stats on the population. I think if you had the usual suspects like UMHB or Mount U coming to town it would get good coverage from the local press and generate interest from local fans since it's a nationally televised event.
UMHB is a three hour drive from here. I know, I have to go there this weekend for a girl's softball tourney. They better not count on UMHB coming to town in order to make this successful, as I doubt the average person in greater Houston could even tell you where UMHB is. What they do have is a major metropolitan area to draw on. What they need is a game plan to promote this.They should be able to draw on coverage from the local Houston NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox TV affiliates during the week leading up to the event.
This, in a nutshell, is the problem. If they don't even know or care that the current national champion is from Texas, and only three hours away, why would they care when teams from Ohio, Minnesota, Wisconsin or Oregon show up to play. Plus, it would coincide with the late rounds of the high school playoffs, and we know where the interest will come down in
that conflict. While I certainly hope that things go well in Shenandoah, I will be surprised if attendance is significantly higher than Salem (if it is at all).
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on April 19, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
...Interesting stats on the population. I think if you had the usual suspects like UMHB or Mount U coming to town it would get good coverage from the local press and generate interest from local fans since it's a nationally televised event.
UMHB is a three hour drive from here.
Dallas is only 3 hours as well. For the casual D3 fan in the DFW area, driving down to the Stagg Bowl is something that can easily be done and not have to worry about travel.
I played in Salem when the D3 World Series was there and it was a great event and we enjoyed our time there. It was moved to WI and from what I understand, it has been run very well in WI but it's now moving to Iowa. Things change, doesn't mean everyone will think it's the best or right idea, but things change.
Quote from: ITH radio on April 19, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
...Plus, it would coincide with the late rounds of the high school playoffs, and we know where the interest will come down in that conflict.
I don't think the high school playoffs will make a bit of difference. There are 219 high schools in Harris County and another 26 in Montgomery County. Of those 245 high schools in the Houston area, only 1 (The Woodlands) was participating in a state championship football game the weekend of the Stagg Bowl in 2016. In the case of The Woodlands, it was only the second time in school history they made it to the state finals. Traditionally, the Dallas/San Antonio/Austin schools do better at states than the Houston schools.
With a metropolitan area roughly 16x larger than the greater Roanoke area, I would certainly expect more fans than you would see in Salem – especially with good weather. The Houston area has every advantage – the only question I have is how the game will be promoted locally. It will be interesting to watch since I'm sitting here about 15 minutes from the stadium. Across the street you have Cynthia Woods Pavillion – the second highest grossing amphitheater in the world. I'd like to think if they can put 16,500 in there for a Goo Goo Dolls or Heart concert, that at least half that might come out for the DIII National Championship. Fingers crossed.
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 01:11:20 PM
Salem, Va population: 24,000
Greater Roanoke Valley population: 300,000
The Woodlands, TX population 110,000
Harris County population 4,100,000
Montgomery County population 566,000
The stadium is just outside Harris County
This also gives The Stagg Bowl a presence in what will eventually be the third largest city in the USA. Plenty of hotel space and restaurants. George Bush International Airport 20 minutes away. Being a local, I'll be interested to see how this event will be promoted in the upcoming months.
What? You can play that population numbers thing with just about any metro area. I'd say Houston is 10 or 12th largest in this country - and I visit all of the major cities with regularity for work.
OH and TX have their love for football - I think the NCAA is counting on that.
Quote from: SaintsFAN on April 20, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 01:11:20 PM
Salem, Va population: 24,000
Greater Roanoke Valley population: 300,000
The Woodlands, TX population 110,000
Harris County population 4,100,000
Montgomery County population 566,000
The stadium is just outside Harris County
This also gives The Stagg Bowl a presence in what will eventually be the third largest city in the USA. Plenty of hotel space and restaurants. George Bush International Airport 20 minutes away. Being a local, I'll be interested to see how this event will be promoted in the upcoming months.
What? You can play that population numbers thing with just about any metro area. I'd say Houston is 10 or 12th largest in this country - and I visit all of the major cities with regularity for work.
OH and TX have their love for football - I think the NCAA is counting on that.
Houston is now 5th. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas) I really doubt they get more than a couple hundred locals going to the game. The FCS championship doesn't draw many locals in Dallas.
Quote from: AO on April 20, 2017, 04:34:53 PM
The FCS championship doesn't draw many locals in Dallas.
Do you have a source for this?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 21, 2017, 12:06:51 AM
Quote from: AO on April 20, 2017, 04:34:53 PM
The FCS championship doesn't draw many locals in Dallas.
Do you have a source for this?
Myself? Went to the 2011 championship and have watched every game since then. Here's the 2014 crowd:
(https://www.oneherd.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/North_Dakota_State_National_Championship_One_Herd_Poster.jpg?69b37e)
Not too many neutral colors in the stadium. Of course there might be more locals if there were more tickets available and they were cheaper. I think it would be cool to get a lot of locals out to fill up the stands but if I'm a player I mainly care about how many of my friends and family were able to come.
Attendance in Frisco for FCS Championship is actually pretty interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_Football_Championship#Champions
This year and the first year are the obvious exceptions to near sold out games, and those years perfectly correlate to the games without ND State. Capacity is listed at 20,500, so it's pretty clear it was close to a sell-out every year ND State was there, but the two years ND State didn't attend, attendance was significantly lower. I think construction cut 4000 seats off the max number this year, but even still it didn't sell out. So there is a conclusion to be drawn that without a team like ND State, which travels very, very well, the attendance isn't overwhelming. That is a fairly clear indication that local demand is not that high. But we only have 2 out of 7 occurrences on which to base that.
Quote from: SaintsFAN on April 20, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 01:11:20 PM
Salem, Va population: 24,000
Greater Roanoke Valley population: 300,000
The Woodlands, TX population 110,000
Harris County population 4,100,000
Montgomery County population 566,000
The stadium is just outside Harris County
This also gives The Stagg Bowl a presence in what will eventually be the third largest city in the USA. Plenty of hotel space and restaurants. George Bush International Airport 20 minutes away. Being a local, I'll be interested to see how this event will be promoted in the upcoming months.
What? You can play that population numbers thing with just about any metro area. I'd say Houston is 10 or 12th largest in this country - and I visit all of the major cities with regularity for work.
OH and TX have their love for football - I think the NCAA is counting on that.
I can't speak for Texas, but I'm comfortable in saying the locals will support the Stagg Bowl in Canton regardless of the participants. Yes, it would be an obvious success if Mount or another local team was playing, but NE Ohio and Western PA has a huge D3 presence and it should pull fans from many regional D3 teams simply because of the novelty of having the Stagg so close. And the Pro Football Hall of Fame is a draw too.
Quote from: Jack Parkman on April 19, 2017, 05:24:20 PM
Quote from: phil on April 19, 2017, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on April 19, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
...Interesting stats on the population. I think if you had the usual suspects like UMHB or Mount U coming to town it would get good coverage from the local press and generate interest from local fans since it's a nationally televised event.
UMHB is a three hour drive from here.
Dallas is only 3 hours as well. For the casual D3 fan in the DFW area, driving down to the Stagg Bowl is something that can easily be done and not have to worry about travel.
I played in Salem when the D3 World Series was there and it was a great event and we enjoyed our time there. It was moved to WI and from what I understand, it has been run very well in WI but it's now moving to Iowa. Things change, doesn't mean everyone will think it's the best or right idea, but things change.
Biggest reason baseball is moving is because the playoff structure and schedule is shifting... the World Series will now be a week later and Appleton doesn't want to change it's current, yearly, schedule... so it has to move ... Appleton is no longer interested in hosting the event.
But from the looks of the most recent host site decisions and what we've learned, guessing Appleton wouldn't have been allowed to continue to host, regardless.
I will be curious to see if the benefits of shifting the championships, in the case of football and basketball significantly better facilities, outweigh the benefits of having built something of a local following. Granted even in Salem it's not like you were selling out the games, but there was a significant local pride in being the home to so many NCAA championships among those who cared.
Personally I am all in favor of moving the Stagg to Canton on a regular basis. If DIII is all about the student athlete experience, tying in the Stagg to the HOF is amazing for any participants and visitors that haven't had the chance to visit Canton. That will be a more encompassing benefit, of course, if UMU ever relinquishes its ridiculously frequent appearances, but I think the idea has a ton of merit. The weather conditions might diminish that some, but that's a trade off I think is legitimate, especially if we can ever get a Saturday day time game back.
As for Texas, I'm just scratching my head. I don't see how that benefits the athletes, schools, students, or fans in most cases. But you never know until you try and I hope it all works out.
If you think of it this way, perhaps Shenandoah, Texas, is a two-year gamble by the NCAA. Canton wasn't going to be ready in 2018 regardless. The Texas pick allows the NCAA to make a small commitment to a new place without a lot of risk if it doesn't go well. Plus it allows the NCAA to throw a bone to an area of the country that gets screwed hard in Division III bracketing and hosting.
And if it does well, hey, even better.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 27, 2017, 03:57:12 PM
But from the looks of the most recent host site decisions and what we've learned, guessing Appleton wouldn't have been allowed to continue to host, regardless.
I think the excuse "we don't want to be at the same place all the time" was only used for Salem and really was meant to be "some of us at the NCAA (but certainly not a majority) would like you to move away from Salem for absolutely no reason than to say it happened. What? Greensboro? No. Go ahead and go there for four years for soccer. We have no opinion on that."
But four years at Greensboro is not the same as 25 years at Salem.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 04, 2017, 12:46:47 PM
But four years at Greensboro is not the same as 25 years at Salem.
I don't disagree on the basics, but I have asked a member of one of those committees if they were told anything about not being in the same place too long. The answer was it never came up in conversation.
Sure... Salem has hosted a long time, but I think those who have a problem with it are a minority of people at the NCAA who have some issue they don't want to speak about. I don't believe it is an NCAA mandate and I don't think it is necessarily agreed upon across all sports. Furthermore, I would contend that if Salem was the problem and shouldn't be hosting, all committees would have been told to avoid them. There is more to this than just years... and I hate to say it, it is in the minds of a few people who apparently said the right things.
This is an interesting intellectual exercise but if I were the NCAA and I wanted to enforce that rule, I wouldn't have really felt it necessary to tell the soccer committee anything, considering they have played this championship in five different locations over the past 10 years.