The "style" thread somehow got me to thinking about schools that I'm surprised haven't had more consistent success....which led to thinking about schools that had really down years (for them) last year and whether they might rebound in 2017.
In the first category...Colby and Bates immediately come to mind. I especially love Colby but for whatever reason(s) the soccer fortunes have not paralleled the school's meteoric rise up the USNWR rankings.
Allegheny is another. Good school but with much more accessible admissions. I guess the location might be a little iffy for some, but the Gators should be better. Wooster should be better. Denison is a very good school that used to be pretty good and has gone through a rough patch.
I think some of the ODACs tend to be underrated, and I always think a NC Wesleyan or Methodist should be better.
As for recently strong schools that struggled last year...Salisbury, Hope, Wheaton (Ill), Brockport, Dickinson, MIT, Thomas More, RPI, Rutgers-Camden, GAC, Swat, Case, ECSU, York (PA), Skidmore, Wesleyan, RWU.
Programs possibly on the rise....Wabash, Oberlin.
Two that come to mind for me are Muhlenberg and Lycoming. The Mules are 9-18-5 the last two years but I thought they were usually near the top of their conference?? Lycoming isn't necessarily a regular hotbed of talent, but they had a great 2 year run in '14 & '15 (23-5-5) before falling back to 9-6-4 last year.
Quote from: EB2319 on July 06, 2017, 03:40:03 PM
Two that come to mind for me are Muhlenberg and Lycoming. The Mules are 9-18-5 the last two years but I thought they were usually near the top of their conference?? Lycoming isn't necessarily a regular hotbed of talent, but they had a great 2 year run in '14 & '15 (23-5-5) before falling back to 9-6-4 last year.
Good catch. Had Muhlenberg on my list and somehow missed that one. Lycoming for me is more of a newcomer and on the fence in terms of emerging versus disappointing.
Newmie, this will be an interesting year for Colby. Seabrook inherited a solid group that made the NESCAC tournament his first year, but then the cupboard was bare and he brought in almost 20 freshmen, who now have considerable (albeit struggling) experience and will be juniors. With some perennial NESCAC contenders rebuilding a bit, Colby will have a shot of returning to the conference playoffs.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 06, 2017, 03:45:24 PM
Lycoming for me is more of a newcomer and on the fence in terms of emerging versus disappointing.
I think Lycoming suffers from the cyclical nature common among average educational institutions. Some years they'll get good talent, and other years, not so much. But '16 was clearly a down year given their success in '14 and '15.
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 06, 2017, 03:46:17 PM
Newmie, this will be an interesting year for Colby. Seabrook inherited a solid group that made the NESCAC tournament his first year, but then the cupboard was bare and he brought in almost 20 freshmen, who now have considerable (albeit struggling) experience and will be juniors. With some perennial NESCAC contenders rebuilding a bit, Colby will have a shot of returning to the conference playoffs.
Interesting. To be fair, it's not easy to make up ground being in the NESCAC but they at least should be able to take care of business outside of the conference. It is such an attractive school. Full disclosure...Colby was son's dream school and he got in regular admission. He was on the way to the bookstore to buy the gear when coach said he could come to preseason but that he might not have enough lockers given commitment to the early admissions crew. So, ironically given what you wrote above, he chose the school that ended up bringing in exactly 20 freshmen. Could not have worked out any better but a lot of luck and hard work involved. So, reflecting back on the other thread, it's sometimes the "you would never believe it" factors like number of lockers that can impact decisions as much or more so than style of play and such. And as a result of such chance happenings, I am now a Kenyon to the death fanatic.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 06, 2017, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 06, 2017, 03:46:17 PM
Newmie, this will be an interesting year for Colby. Seabrook inherited a solid group that made the NESCAC tournament his first year, but then the cupboard was bare and he brought in almost 20 freshmen, who now have considerable (albeit struggling) experience and will be juniors. With some perennial NESCAC contenders rebuilding a bit, Colby will have a shot of returning to the conference playoffs.
Interesting. To be fair, it's not easy to make up ground being in the NESCAC but they at least should be able to take care of business outside of the conference. It is such an attractive school. Full disclosure...Colby was son's dream school and he got in regular admission. He was on the way to the bookstore to buy the gear when coach said he could come to preseason but that he might not have enough lockers given commitment to the early admissions crew. So, ironically given what you wrote above, he chose the school that ended up bringing in exactly 20 freshmen. Could not have worked out any better but a lot of luck and hard work involved. So, reflecting back on the other thread, it's sometimes the "you would never believe it" factors like number of lockers that can impact decisions as much or more so than style of play and such. And as a result of such chance happenings, I am now a Kenyon to the death fanatic.
If last year is any indication, Colby may have trouble with their out of conference games in 2017. Their out of conference games are as follows:
Sept 5 - St. Joseph's of Maine - tough game, Colby lost to St. Joe's 1-0 in 2016 on a last second goal
Sept 12 - Thomas - (Colby beat Thomas 1-0 last year. Thomas has one of the better offensive players in New England, Adam LaBrie, who scored 17 goals as a soph last year)
Sept 20 - University of New England
Sept 26 - Gordon - tough game
Oct 3 - Husson - Colby lost to Husson 2-1 in 2016
On the other hand, if some of Colby's 20 freshman players from Seabrook's first year develop as one might expect, maybe they can turn things around.
Quote from: EB2319 on July 06, 2017, 03:40:03 PM
Two that come to mind for me are Muhlenberg and Lycoming. The Mules are 9-18-5 the last two years but I thought they were usually near the top of their conference?? Lycoming isn't necessarily a regular hotbed of talent, but they had a great 2 year run in '14 & '15 (23-5-5) before falling back to 9-6-4 last year.
Lycoming recruited Jared Moses . They were able to snatch him because he spurned D1 offers due to a lack of full ride scholarship offers. Don' t know how much academic money he is getting at Lycoming but he is a great addition. I think Josh Cruz another DMV area player also going there. Both USSDA players.
Quote from: sokermom on July 06, 2017, 06:14:31 PMLycoming recruited Jared Moses . They were able to snatch him because he spurned D1 offers due to a lack of full ride scholarship offers. Don' t know how much academic money he is getting at Lycoming but he is a great addition.
It will be interesting to see where on the field he plays for Lycoming. In this video from a single game, he displays a lot of valuable assets against DA competition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62T7ItNd_Bk
In the category of "bounce back" team, I'm going to add Messiah. '15 they missed the tournament. '16 they made it "only" to the Sweet 16. Look for Messiah to be back to being one of the last teams standing, if not the final team standing. They lost only one starter from last year's lineup (albeit the NPOY). With all those returners and transfer Danny Brandt in the midfield, backed by a very strong bench, I think Messiah will be back to making a very deep run in the tournament.
For the SUNYAC Brockport and Plattsburgh are looking to bounce back. Plattsburgh finished in 6th last year just making it into the conference playoffs and Brockport completely missed the playoffs and posted their first losing record in years
This should be reserved for teams that were very good that have drifted into mediocrity or/also teams that should do better than they do. Colby had 1-2 dominant years in 1990-1992 where they had some very good players but other than that they were a .500 team or worse so I cannot include them.
Muhlenberg is a good choice as they had some good teams in the 90's.
Hopkins is another one from that league that has drifted into mediocrity. They had some good teams 10-15 years ago.
Williams has to be on the list as they have not even made the NCAA's since 2013 and they were very dominant for a long time.
Plattsburgh is a good one as they use to dominate the SUNYAC.
A couple of the NJAC's like Stockton / Rowan and TCNJ who had some great teams in the mid 90's. TCNJ had some legitimate D1 players between 1994-1996.
Methodist used to be nasty when they had a ton of foreigners.
Salem State used to have a line-up of 28 year olds that were physical and chippy as hell and with some skill. They had some good teams.
Plymouth State and Keene State used to have very solid programs and both have drifted off. Alot of this has to do with changing admissions priorities at these schools. Coaches used to grab 4-5 Swedish kids and bring them over but I do not think those schools have as much leeway as they used to.
UC San Diego was a legit D1 program playing D3 from the mid 80's to the 90's. Coached by the egomaniac Derek Armstrong.
Muhlenberg made it to NCAA final 8 three years ago. Salem State continues to play a bunch of 30 year old men; they just aren't good. Hopkins has a bunch of 2nd year guys who are program changers and should get more time this year. Almost every NJAC team has some D1 talent, as a lot of kids who think they can transfer to Rutgers start off in a NJAC school. Williams is in deep trouble, imo.
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 07, 2017, 09:36:57 AM
Muhlenberg made it to NCAA final 8 three years ago. Salem State continues to play a bunch of 30 year old men; they just aren't good. Hopkins has a bunch of 2nd year guys who are program changers and should get more time this year. Almost every NJAC team has some D1 talent, as a lot of kids who think they can transfer to Rutgers start off in a NJAC school. Williams is in deep trouble, imo.
My son did ID camp at Muhlenberg a year ago. His 2016 recruits (4 of them I think) came into the camp with newbies. They did not look that good. I don't know how Muhlenberg did this past season. Need to look it up. Maybe Coach Topping got a good recruiting class for 2017.
Muhlenberg might have made it to the final 8 in 2014 but that squad was not the most impressive team especially compared to their 1995 Final 4 team which was pretty nasty.
I thought a lot of the kids that go to Rutgers and do not play transfer in to NJAC schools...who knew
Mules lost in sweet 16 in 2014 on home field to Tufts. Mules got there by beating Baruch and advancing on PKs vs Catholic.
what about emerging teams? Under the radar, etc?
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 06, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
Quote from: sokermom on July 06, 2017, 06:14:31 PMLycoming recruited Jared Moses . They were able to snatch him because he spurned D1 offers due to a lack of full ride scholarship offers. Don' t know how much academic money he is getting at Lycoming but he is a great addition.
It will be interesting to see where on the field he plays for Lycoming. In this video from a single game, he displays a lot of valuable assets against DA competition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62T7ItNd_Bk
So this was interesting. Personally I didn't see a whole lot out of him in this video - certainly not full ride D1 caliber. Sure he looks pretty quick, but otherwise I wasn't overly impressed. Would be curious what I'm missing that others see. Maybe I'm just used to seeing better talent in the academies and programs around me.
Quote from: EB2319 on July 07, 2017, 10:24:29 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 06, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
Quote from: sokermom on July 06, 2017, 06:14:31 PMLycoming recruited Jared Moses . They were able to snatch him because he spurned D1 offers due to a lack of full ride scholarship offers. Don' t know how much academic money he is getting at Lycoming but he is a great addition.
It will be interesting to see where on the field he plays for Lycoming. In this video from a single game, he displays a lot of valuable assets against DA competition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62T7ItNd_Bk
So this was interesting. Personally I didn't see a whole lot out of him in this video - certainly not full ride D1 caliber. Sure he looks pretty quick, but otherwise I wasn't overly impressed. Would be curious what I'm missing that others see. Maybe I'm just used to seeing better talent in the academies and programs around me.
Yea i have no idea what i am watching in that video. Kids should always highlight who they are and I wasn't even sure who I was watching.
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 07, 2017, 10:44:50 AM
Yea i have no idea what i am watching in that video. Kids should always highlight who they are and I wasn't even sure who I was watching.
Took me a minute to figure it out as well. You needed to read the intro scroll to see he was #32. After I identified him in the first/second clip, it was easy to find him in the rest of the video. But like I said, not overly impressive.
Quote from: sokermom on July 06, 2017, 06:14:31 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on July 06, 2017, 03:40:03 PM
Two that come to mind for me are Muhlenberg and Lycoming. The Mules are 9-18-5 the last two years but I thought they were usually near the top of their conference?? Lycoming isn't necessarily a regular hotbed of talent, but they had a great 2 year run in '14 & '15 (23-5-5) before falling back to 9-6-4 last year.
Lycoming recruited Jared Moses . They were able to snatch him because he spurned D1 offers due to a lack of full ride scholarship offers. Don' t know how much academic money he is getting at Lycoming but he is a great addition. I think Josh Cruz another DMV area player also going there. Both USSDA players.
This is a great topic for discussion. I like the idea. As for this post I found that both these players are 3 stars on Top Drawer Soccer for whatever that is worth but not many 3 star players miss out on playing D1 soccer. I would imagine they were recruited heavily by mid-major D1 programs and chose to play elsewhere.
Sokermom may know more reasons as to why, but money and scholarships are usually main factors to these kinds of decisions to pass on D1 offers. I also found that both played for Pipeline SC together which won the U-17 National Title a few years back. Knowing each other may have helped them both end up at the same school. 3 stars, national champions, starting and playing with loads of other talented players that committed to D1 and D3 programs. Just from these findings I think Lycoming will be happy with these 2 newcomers.
Also Muhles and Lycoming are 2 good choices for disappointments. Muhles have struggled since 2014 tournament run and Lycoming had expectations through the roof last year that they couldn't match. I would imagine those expectations haven't changed for either program so we will see how they fare this upcoming fall.
Quote from: NEPAFAN on July 07, 2017, 10:23:07 AM
what about emerging teams? Under the radar, etc?
Speaking on behalf of the Mid-Atlantic region I would look for Eastern to be a strong contender to 1. fly under the radar after a head coaching change and 2. be an emerging program that will consistently compete in the region and NCAA's each year.
We have seen the emergence of Lycoming so now we will see if Eastern can hold onto their solid run over the last few seasons or if they will have a setback like others in the region have.
Yea after 2015 Lycoming was considered a serious contender for 2016. Credit to the coach for beefing up their schedule big time in 2016 because they cruised in their 2015 schedule but it was much weaker. In all honesty that is easier to do when you are playing in a weaker conference because you give yourself a really good shot at winning your league so you can take some chances out of conference. However, the early schedule in 2016 really snuck up on Lycoming as they started 1-2-2 against some quality sides and then struggled in their conference. Maybe they were over confident or maybe they had injuries or whatever. They knocked off CWU and Oneonta St. but i think they failed to make their conference tournament. Their 2017 schedule looks stacked again but looks like they dropped Oneonta St
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 07, 2017, 11:58:34 AM
Yea after 2015 Lycoming was considered a serious contender for 2016. Credit to the coach for beefing up their schedule big time but in all honesty that is easier to do when you are playing in a weaker conference because you give yourself a really good shot at winning your league. However, the early schedule in 2016 really snuck up on Lycoming as they started 1-2-2 against some quality sides and then struggled in their conference. Maybe they were over confident or maybe they had injuries or whatever. They knocked off CWU and Oneonta St. but i think they failed to make their conference tournament. Their 2017 schedule looks stacked again but looks like they dropped Oneonta St
I agree Mr. Right. Very difficult schedule last year and poor conference play didn't help the cause. They did miss playoffs on a tie-breaker if I remember correctly. Looks like they dropped F&M, Fords, Eastern, and Oneonta and picked up Rutgers-Camden, Dickinson, Washington College, and Medaille. Thoughts?
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 06, 2017, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 06, 2017, 03:46:17 PM
Newmie, this will be an interesting year for Colby. Seabrook inherited a solid group that made the NESCAC tournament his first year, but then the cupboard was bare and he brought in almost 20 freshmen, who now have considerable (albeit struggling) experience and will be juniors. With some perennial NESCAC contenders rebuilding a bit, Colby will have a shot of returning to the conference playoffs.
Interesting. To be fair, it's not easy to make up ground being in the NESCAC but they at least should be able to take care of business outside of the conference. It is such an attractive school. Full disclosure...Colby was son's dream school and he got in regular admission. He was on the way to the bookstore to buy the gear when coach said he could come to preseason but that he might not have enough lockers given commitment to the early admissions crew. So, ironically given what you wrote above, he chose the school that ended up bringing in exactly 20 freshmen. Could not have worked out any better but a lot of luck and hard work involved. So, reflecting back on the other thread, it's sometimes the "you would never believe it" factors like number of lockers that can impact decisions as much or more so than style of play and such. And as a result of such chance happenings, I am now a Kenyon to the death fanatic.
As a regular reader and poster the last few years, I knew fully of your son's and your Kenyon connection and your devotion to that school, but had no idea that our sons nearly played together at Colby. Too bad the coach's comment scared him off, because that coach always made room for good players . . . Full disclosure on my part, my son was almost part of Class of 2016 at Kenyon. Coach Brown recruited him pretty vigorously and we took the visit. Very impressive, but my son just didn't want to be in Ohio . . . So it ended up being Colby ED as second generation for the same coach.
Quote from: OldNed on July 06, 2017, 04:33:47 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 06, 2017, 04:03:11 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 06, 2017, 03:46:17 PM
Newmie, this will be an interesting year for Colby. Seabrook inherited a solid group that made the NESCAC tournament his first year, but then the cupboard was bare and he brought in almost 20 freshmen, who now have considerable (albeit struggling) experience and will be juniors. With some perennial NESCAC contenders rebuilding a bit, Colby will have a shot of returning to the conference playoffs.
Interesting. To be fair, it's not easy to make up ground being in the NESCAC but they at least should be able to take care of business outside of the conference. It is such an attractive school. Full disclosure...Colby was son's dream school and he got in regular admission. He was on the way to the bookstore to buy the gear when coach said he could come to preseason but that he might not have enough lockers given commitment to the early admissions crew. So, ironically given what you wrote above, he chose the school that ended up bringing in exactly 20 freshmen. Could not have worked out any better but a lot of luck and hard work involved. So, reflecting back on the other thread, it's sometimes the "you would never believe it" factors like number of lockers that can impact decisions as much or more so than style of play and such. And as a result of such chance happenings, I am now a Kenyon to the death fanatic.
If last year is any indication, Colby may have trouble with their out of conference games in 2017. Their out of conference games are as follows:
Sept 5 - St. Joseph's of Maine - tough game, Colby lost to St. Joe's 1-0 in 2016 on a last second goal
Sept 12 - Thomas - (Colby beat Thomas 1-0 last year. Thomas has one of the better offensive players in New England, Adam LaBrie, who scored 17 goals as a soph last year)
Sept 20 - University of New England
Sept 26 - Gordon - tough game
Oct 3 - Husson - Colby lost to Husson 2-1 in 2016
On the other hand, if some of Colby's 20 freshman players from Seabrook's first year develop as one might expect, maybe they can turn things around.
Old Ned, this is an accurate assessment. Those Colby juniors must finally come into their own and create a platform for the program going forward.
I'm gonna give a shout to Wentworth as an emerging program. They return all but two starters and Noah Martins had 15g/6a last year as a sophomore. I like him as a striker a lot – quick, skilled, and can play up top or between the lines.
On the other side, I do think MIT should – if not performing better this coming season – have at least have had a better season last year. After making it to the Sweet 16 in 2015, they graduated Sean Bingham and lost almost half of their goals but, more worryingly, they lost a ton of one-goal games. Sure, that can mean that losses are "fine margin" defeats, but it also can be an indication of a lack of experience and leadership – surprising given that the Engineers returned a decent amount last year (admittedly, in addition to goals from Bingham, they lost a decent amount of the "spine" of the program, so that could explain the shortfalls).
1970s Player, I appreciate your post. I think Colby and Kenyon have a lot in common and end up on a lot of the same shorts lists for both athletes and non-athletes. What the administration has done with Colby over the past 5-10 years is really impressive. The other school I fell in love with from the college search days is Haverford.
Another category is what recent top teams are at risk for a drop.
In that vein, this will be an interesting year for Kenyon. A couple of down years would not be unexpected given the end of the Clougher-Amolo-Glassman-Eudy-Lee era. A lot of talent returns in the midfield with decent experience up front and a centerback duo that should be among the best in the country. Replacing Clougher is probably the biggest question mark. I think they are bringing in a kid who was the back-up GK at Berkshire (same prep school that provided Clougher, Amolo as well as Jack Harrison, Zeiko Lewis and a ton of other big-time D1 and D3 recruits). Brown and asst Moore will deserve a ton of credit if the Lords can keep rolling without much of a blip.
OWU should be back to being a top 10 team.
As for under the radar, I would again cite Oberlin and Wabash. Maybe Rose-Hulman.
Wheaton (Ill) will be interesting to watch.
Since the departure of Coach Mike Giuliano from Wheaton(lL) along with the departure of a few of his powerhouse recruiting classes, it's been a bit of a downward slide at Wheaton. I think there is at least a reasonable chance that they do not win the CCIW again this year and do not advance to the tournament. The wildcard will be the strength of their incoming freshmen class and the possible addition of any transfers.
NJAC is a revolving door. Guys who can't get on the field at Rutgers transfer to schools throughout the league. Muhlenberg (I stand corrected: sweet 16 in '14) isn't a terribly impressive program. The coach is very involved in a local club that promulgates 'robust' soccer & his sides play racehorse slamball in both settings. Boring.
From the Liberty League.
I think Vassar is really emerging as a strong team.
A program that has really been on an upswing over the last decade or so.
Well coached and plays good soccer.
I can see them challenging nationally very soon if they keep it up.
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 08, 2017, 10:48:31 AM
NJAC is a revolving door. Guys who can't get on the field at Rutgers transfer to schools throughout the league. Muhlenberg (I stand corrected: sweet 16 in '14) isn't a terribly impressive program. The coach is very involved in a local club that promulgates 'robust' soccer & his sides play racehorse slamball in both settings. Boring.
True about NJAC. As for Muhlenberg, I assume Topping's local club is LVU? My u14's played them and I found them to be terribly mediocre at best.
Quote from: EB2319 on July 08, 2017, 01:37:51 PM
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 08, 2017, 10:48:31 AM
NJAC is a revolving door. Guys who can't get on the field at Rutgers transfer to schools throughout the league. Muhlenberg (I stand corrected: sweet 16 in '14) isn't a terribly impressive program. The coach is very involved in a local club that promulgates 'robust' soccer & his sides play racehorse slamball in both settings. Boring.
True about NJAC. As for Muhlenberg, I assume Topping's local club is LVU? My u14's played them and I found them to be terribly mediocre at best.
Yeah. They were club national championship contenders at the HS ages annually up until a few years ago. The Union grabbed their core players when their DA started, leaving the club playing the same frantic style with limited athletic talent.
Speaking of the Liberty League, Union jumps out to me as another that should do better. Beautiful school with proud history, very good academics with interesting mix of liberal arts and strong engineering, competitive admissions but much more accessible than most of the NESCAC and other top 25-30 LACs, athletic campus vibe (recent D1 national hockey champs), and good distance away from home for kids ranging from New England, upstate NY, metropolitan NY, CT, NJ, PA, etc. Also have the same coach for 20+ years who has a D1 background. A quick review revealed only one NCAA appearance and that was in mid-2000s.
In a league where teams other than StL & Vassar play an unwatchably ugly game, Union out-uglies them all. Fouls and long balls, and not much else. Terrific school & nice campus, though.
With Thomas More College vacating the President's Athletic Conference after this season (TMC has won 6 of the last 8 conference titles), look for more upcoming NCAA tournament appearances from Grove City College and Geneva College. Grove City, piloted by Head Coach Mike Dreves, is on the cusp of breaking out after several strong performances that have built a very good foundation for future success.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 08, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
Speaking of the Liberty League, Union jumps out to me as another that should do better. Beautiful school with proud history, very good academics with interesting mix of liberal arts and strong engineering, competitive admissions but much more accessible than most of the NESCAC and other top 25-30 LACs, athletic campus vibe (recent D1 national hockey champs), and good distance away from home for kids ranging from New England, upstate NY, metropolitan NY, CT, NJ, PA, etc. Also have the same coach for 20+ years who has a D1 background. A quick review revealed only one NCAA appearance and that was in mid-2000s.
Another coincidence, PN: my older son graduated from Union in 2012, where he was all-conference and team MVP his senior season (2011). The program had an excellent run from about 2005-11, with an NCAA 2nd round appearance and at least two other LL finals appearances, averaging 12-13 wins per year during that time. Their most recent all-American, Sebastiaan Jansen, graduated in 2013, and the recruiting has dried up somewhat since then, corresponding with the improvement of Skidmore and Vassar. While my son was there, it was always SLU, Hobart, Union, Hamilton, and RPI battling it out. I haven't watched the team recently, but Clotpoll's description of their play did not apply 6-8 years ago. They played a style that suited the players on the squad, and Coach Guinn game-planned for each opponent. Although they haven't challenged for the league title recently, they will be back.
It is a great school with unique campus that continues to increase in popularity, and there is no doubt that hockey rules the day now. Approximately 10 players have graduated to the NHL in the past 5 years, and their 2014 NCAA D-1 championship for a school of 2200 with no scholarships was an amazing feat.
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 09, 2017, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 08, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
Speaking of the Liberty League, Union jumps out to me as another that should do better. Beautiful school with proud history, very good academics with interesting mix of liberal arts and strong engineering, competitive admissions but much more accessible than most of the NESCAC and other top 25-30 LACs, athletic campus vibe (recent D1 national hockey champs), and good distance away from home for kids ranging from New England, upstate NY, metropolitan NY, CT, NJ, PA, etc. Also have the same coach for 20+ years who has a D1 background. A quick review revealed only one NCAA appearance and that was in mid-2000s.
Another coincidence, PM: my older son graduated from Union in 2012, where he was all-conference and team MVP his senior season (2011). The program had an excellent run from about 2005-11, with an NCAA 2nd round appearance and at least two other LL finals appearances, averaging 12-13 wins per year during that time. Their most recent all-American, Sebastiaan Jansen, graduated in 2013, and the recruiting has dried up somewhat since then, corresponding with the improvement of Skidmore and Vassar. While my son was there, it was always SLU, Hobart, Union, Hamilton, and RPI battling it out. I haven't watched the team recently, but Clotpoll's description of their play did not apply 6-8 years ago. They played a style that suited the players on the squad, and Coach Guinn game-planned for each opponent. Although they haven't challenged for the league title recently, they will be back.
It is a great school with unique campus that continues to increase in popularity, and there is no doubt that hockey rules the day now. Approximately 10 players have graduated to the NHL in the past 5 years, and their 2014 NCAA D-1 championship for a school of 2200 with no scholarships was an amazing feat.
Is it safe to mention Rhodes??? Same coach for 27 years. 4 NCAA appearances but none since 1998.
I didn't realize that Union gave no scholarships for hockey? Is that true for other D3s that have D1 hockey, like SLU, Clarkson, Colorado College, etc?
1970s NESCAC, I sent you a PM in case you didn't see it.
Staying on the Liberty League theme, Hobart comes to mind. I'm not sure if they are in the "should do better" category as much as in the "I'm surprised they haven't done better" category. Coach Griffin has stockpiled a lot of talent the past few years (second only to SLU in the league, in my view), but doesn't have as much to show for it as one might hope. Perhaps 2017 will be a breakthrough year for the Statesmen.
With respect to Union, they have landed a few small, technical players from New England the past few years who are seemingly at odds with the team's playing style of late. Perhaps the playing style will change to match the talents of the recent recruits.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 09, 2017, 02:16:38 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 09, 2017, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 08, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
Speaking of the Liberty League, Union jumps out to me as another that should do better. Beautiful school with proud history, very good academics with interesting mix of liberal arts and strong engineering, competitive admissions but much more accessible than most of the NESCAC and other top 25-30 LACs, athletic campus vibe (recent D1 national hockey champs), and good distance away from home for kids ranging from New England, upstate NY, metropolitan NY, CT, NJ, PA, etc. Also have the same coach for 20+ years who has a D1 background. A quick review revealed only one NCAA appearance and that was in mid-2000s.
Another coincidence, PM: my older son graduated from Union in 2012, where he was all-conference and team MVP his senior season (2011). The program had an excellent run from about 2005-11, with an NCAA 2nd round appearance and at least two other LL finals appearances, averaging 12-13 wins per year during that time. Their most recent all-American, Sebastiaan Jansen, graduated in 2013, and the recruiting has dried up somewhat since then, corresponding with the improvement of Skidmore and Vassar. While my son was there, it was always SLU, Hobart, Union, Hamilton, and RPI battling it out. I haven't watched the team recently, but Clotpoll's description of their play did not apply 6-8 years ago. They played a style that suited the players on the squad, and Coach Guinn game-planned for each opponent. Although they haven't challenged for the league title recently, they will be back.
It is a great school with unique campus that continues to increase in popularity, and there is no doubt that hockey rules the day now. Approximately 10 players have graduated to the NHL in the past 5 years, and their 2014 NCAA D-1 championship for a school of 2200 with no scholarships was an amazing feat.
Is it safe to mention Rhodes??? Same coach for 27 years. 4 NCAA appearances but none since 1998.
I didn't realize that Union gave no scholarships for hockey? Is that true for other D3s that have D1 hockey, like SLU, Clarkson, Colorado College, etc?
1970s NESCAC, I sent you a PM in case you didn't see it.
Union's non-conference schedule has been laughable for as long as I can remember, and I firmly believe that's held them out of contention for any at-large bid over the past 10 years. Jansen was a great player, but scored half of his goals in throwaway games against teams who Union shouldn't even have been playing. I really do think playing on the small turf field limits how many options Guinn has in terms of tactics, and agree that it might limit the effectiveness of some of their more technical players.
Also, the antics on the sidelines takes away any sympathy vote they may get. Nothing felt better than a win against Union. ;D
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 09, 2017, 02:54:26 PM
Staying on the Liberty League theme, Hobart comes to mind. I'm not sure if they are in the "should do better" category as much as in the "I'm surprised they haven't done better" category. Coach Griffin has stockpiled a lot of talent the past few years (second only to SLU in the league, in my view), but doesn't have as much to show for it as one might hope. Perhaps 2017 will be a breakthrough year for the Statesmen.
With respect to Union, they have landed a few small, technical players from New England the past few years who are seemingly at odds with the team's playing style of late. Perhaps the playing style will change to match the talents of the recent recruits.
Hoping the hiring of Bednarsky as an assistant will lead to Hobart playing more tactically. He certainly has the smarts and pedigree (dad is a fine club & HS coach in NJ) to help a side get through StL & Vassar. I saw them play once last year, and they looked to be the same as always: 2-3 players good on the ball, tall CBs, fast wingers...and no plan whatsoever. Griffin will put muscle, height and speed on the field over technical ability, and I think that plays into several seasons' worth of random results that come up short of what we'd expect. When a team keeps missing out year after year, it's not 'unlucky'.
Hobart should do better because of very lax admissions and a beautiful campus. Shaun Griffin has done an admirable job since the position went Full-Time about 10 years ago. Steinrotter was always Part-time before that. They play a physical style and it certainly is not the most attractive but I thought they were an NCAA team last year and felt they got snubbed.
Adam Clinton at RPI does a very good job with what he has to work with. RPI is a hockey an football school and does not support soccer in any way. They are very disciplined and work hard under Clinton. They are ugly to watch and have always had issues scoring goals but he gets his teams into the NCAA's and always plays a challenging schedule. He desperately wanted the Skidmore job when it opened up a couple years ago but failed to snag it. His 2008 RPI team was one of their better teams in their history. They were very dangerous, had 2 legit strikers up top and pressed teams like mad. That was an entertaining team and if he had the talent no doubt he would play attractive soccer considering his background was from the national recognized Clifton Park Soccer Club. His father started the club and they always played total futbol at the club.
Union has under performed forever for Jeff Guinn. They should be better than they are and the only reason they went to the NCAA's in 2005 was because of Ftorek up top. He then transferred to Midd and won the NCAA Title in 2007.
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 10, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
Hobart should do better because of very lax admissions and a beautiful campus. Shaun Griffin has done an admirable job since the position went Full-Time about 10 years ago. Steinrotter was always Part-time before that. They play a physical style and it certainly is not the most attractive but I thought they were an NCAA team last year and felt they got snubbed.
Adam Clinton at RPI does a very good job with what he has to work with. RPI is a hockey an football school and does not support soccer in any way. They are very disciplined and work hard under Clinton. They are ugly to watch and have always had issues scoring goals but he gets his teams into the NCAA's and always plays a challenging schedule. He desperately wanted the Skidmore job when it opened up a couple years ago but failed to snag it. His 2008 RPI team was one of their better teams in their history. They were very dangerous, had 2 legit strikers up top and pressed teams like mad. That was an entertaining team and if he had the talent no doubt he would play attractive soccer considering his background was from the national recognized Clifton Park Soccer Club. His father started the club and they always played total futbol at the club.
Union has under performed forever for Jeff Guinn. They should be better than they are and the only reason they went to the NCAA's in 2005 was because of Ftorek up top. He then transferred to Midd and won the NCAA Title in 2007.
MR, don't you mean RPI's
2009 team, which went 13-2-2 (in regular season), both losses being to that "forever under-performing" Union team, before losing 1-0 to your Williams in the second round of the NCAAs?
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 10, 2017, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 10, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
Hobart should do better because of very lax admissions and a beautiful campus. Shaun Griffin has done an admirable job since the position went Full-Time about 10 years ago. Steinrotter was always Part-time before that. They play a physical style and it certainly is not the most attractive but I thought they were an NCAA team last year and felt they got snubbed.
Adam Clinton at RPI does a very good job with what he has to work with. RPI is a hockey an football school and does not support soccer in any way. They are very disciplined and work hard under Clinton. They are ugly to watch and have always had issues scoring goals but he gets his teams into the NCAA's and always plays a challenging schedule. He desperately wanted the Skidmore job when it opened up a couple years ago but failed to snag it. His 2008 RPI team was one of their better teams in their history. They were very dangerous, had 2 legit strikers up top and pressed teams like mad. That was an entertaining team and if he had the talent no doubt he would play attractive soccer considering his background was from the national recognized Clifton Park Soccer Club. His father started the club and they always played total futbol at the club.
Union has under performed forever for Jeff Guinn. They should be better than they are and the only reason they went to the NCAA's in 2005 was because of Ftorek up top. He then transferred to Midd and won the NCAA Title in 2007.
MR, don't you mean RPI's 2009 team, which went 13-2-2 (in regular season), both losses being to that "forever under-performing" Union team, before losing 1-0 to your Williams in the second round of the NCAAs?
NOPE....2009 RPI was a pretty good side but they had graduated a couple guys from that 2008 side that affected them. In 2008 at Babson they lost in the 1st Round of the NCAA'S to Stevens, the eventual NCAA runner-up and a team that dispatched Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 4-1, and they were the better team than Stevens. If I remember correctly they lost in the last minute or in OT but they had the better of possession and some very dangerous chances in that game and deserved to win it. Had they beaten Stevens that day I would be willing to bet they could have gone as far as they ever had in the NCAA's. It was not meant to be. In 2009 they lost to eventual NCAA Semi-Finalist Williams st home 1-0 but they had few good looks in that game and while they had a better overall record in 2009 they were a more dangerous side in 2008.
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 10, 2017, 06:57:16 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on July 10, 2017, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on July 10, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
Hobart should do better because of very lax admissions and a beautiful campus. Shaun Griffin has done an admirable job since the position went Full-Time about 10 years ago. Steinrotter was always Part-time before that. They play a physical style and it certainly is not the most attractive but I thought they were an NCAA team last year and felt they got snubbed.
Adam Clinton at RPI does a very good job with what he has to work with. RPI is a hockey an football school and does not support soccer in any way. They are very disciplined and work hard under Clinton. They are ugly to watch and have always had issues scoring goals but he gets his teams into the NCAA's and always plays a challenging schedule. He desperately wanted the Skidmore job when it opened up a couple years ago but failed to snag it. His 2008 RPI team was one of their better teams in their history. They were very dangerous, had 2 legit strikers up top and pressed teams like mad. That was an entertaining team and if he had the talent no doubt he would play attractive soccer considering his background was from the national recognized Clifton Park Soccer Club. His father started the club and they always played total futbol at the club.
Union has under performed forever for Jeff Guinn. They should be better than they are and the only reason they went to the NCAA's in 2005 was because of Ftorek up top. He then transferred to Midd and won the NCAA Title in 2007.
MR, don't you mean RPI's 2009 team, which went 13-2-2 (in regular season), both losses being to that "forever under-performing" Union team, before losing 1-0 to your Williams in the second round of the NCAAs?
NOPE....2009 RPI was a pretty good side but they had graduated a couple guys from that 2008 side that affected them. In 2008 at Babson they lost in the 1st Round of the NCAA'S to Stevens, the eventual NCAA runner-up and a team that dispatched Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 4-1, and they were the better team than Stevens. If I remember correctly they lost in the last minute or in OT but they had the better of possession and some very dangerous chances in that game and deserved to win it. Had they beaten Stevens that day I would be willing to bet they could have gone as far as they ever had in the NCAA's. It was not meant to be. In 2009 they lost to eventual NCAA Semi-Finalist Williams st home 1-0 but they had few good looks in that game and while they had a better overall record in 2009 they were a more dangerous side in 2008.
And RPI did beat Union in 2008 at Union 1-0, if I recall, before losing to SLU in the LL semis. Of course, Union knocked off Hobart on penalties in the LL semis, before losing the final to a strong SLU side, led by then freshman sensation, Brendan Gorman.
At the risk of merging the playing style thread and this thread, worth noting that many of the LL coaches have had to adjust recruiting and tactics to account for SLU's sustained dominance. Kudos to SLU for forcing the other coaches to react!
Vassar has been building a more tactical approach, but struggle with physicality (making games v. Hobart, Union and Skidmore more challenging). Skidmore and Union are following RPI's defensive approach (hard to lose if the other team can't score, eh), making these matches intense but not thrilling. Seems to my eyes that Hobart (who has beaten SLU two years - home and away) has adapted its game planning, recruiting and hiring (as noted - the assistant coach is an SLU alum) -- all to help them to beat SLU. Lots of injuries led to a rough early season in 2016 or they would have danced. Not sure I buy Union on the rise. Not sure what to make of Skidmore given who graduated. Absolutely sure RPI will be very competitive. Pretty sure Vassar and Hobart will be competitive. Curious to see Bard and Ithaca (the former for year two under the new coach, after Andrew McCabe's unfortunate passing, the latter in a new conference with a new coach) compete. Both RIT and Clarkson will be competitive.
And now a little bait for Clotpoll.....
Seems like roster sizes have been growing the past few years. My guess is that this is due in some part to the link to enrollment -- particularly at private liberal arts colleges (LAC) and some to chance (college coaches make 30 offers hoping to get seven or eight commits. Some years they get ten, etc.). But mostly I think the roster growth is due to (a) more talent distribution and (b) more injuries. On talent distribution: there are now literally thousands of kids who come from similar-level club programs and who have the grades and money to attend the top 150 D3 colleges that have competitive soccer -- all with about the same soccer potential. On injuries, the NCAA data on season-ending injuries suggests a small uptick over the past decade. The data on the number of players who miss games due to injury is harder to get. My half-baked assessment of UAA, NSCAC, Empire, Liberty League and SUNYAC teams suggests that more kids are being held out for concussions, there are more knee and ankle injuries, and that the rosters are bigger (save at SUNYAC, which seems to have a roster limit that may be SUNY-driven). Moreover, the speed and strength of players is greater than a decade back (e.g., I believe that every LL men's soccer team now has dedicated strength coaches and year-around soccer-specific training programs). It may be that soccer skills are greater than a decade ago, but that is not the difference-maker in increased injury.
Quote from: Part_Bart on July 11, 2017, 04:59:30 PM
At the risk of merging the playing style thread and this thread, worth noting that many of the LL coaches have had to adjust recruiting and tactics to account for SLU's sustained dominance. Kudos to SLU for forcing the other coaches to react!
Vassar has been building a more tactical approach, but struggle with physicality (making games v. Hobart, Union and Skidmore more challenging). Skidmore and Union are following RPI's defensive approach (hard to lose if the other team can't score, eh), making these matches intense but not thrilling. Seems to my eyes that Hobart (who has beaten SLU two years - home and away) has adapted its game planning, recruiting and hiring (as noted - the assistant coach is an SLU alum) -- all to help them to beat SLU. Lots of injuries led to a rough early season in 2016 or they would have danced. Not sure I buy Union on the rise. Not sure what to make of Skidmore given who graduated. Absolutely sure RPI will be very competitive. Pretty sure Vassar and Hobart will be competitive. Curious to see Bard and Ithaca (the former for year two under the new coach, after Andrew McCabe's unfortunate passing, the latter in a new conference with a new coach) compete. Both RIT and Clarkson will be competitive.
And now a little bait for Clotpoll.....
Seems like roster sizes have been growing the past few years. My guess is that this is due in some part to the link to enrollment -- particularly at private liberal arts colleges (LAC) and some to chance (college coaches make 30 offers hoping to get seven or eight commits. Some years they get ten, etc.). But mostly I think the roster growth is due to (a) more talent distribution and (b) more injuries. On talent distribution: there are now literally thousands of kids who come from similar-level club programs and who have the grades and money to attend the top 150 D3 colleges that have competitive soccer -- all with about the same soccer potential. On injuries, the NCAA data on season-ending injuries suggests a small uptick over the past decade. The data on the number of players who miss games due to injury is harder to get. My half-baked assessment of UAA, NSCAC, Empire, Liberty League and SUNYAC teams suggests that more kids are being held out for concussions, there are more knee and ankle injuries, and that the rosters are bigger (save at SUNYAC, which seems to have a roster limit that may be SUNY-driven). Moreover, the speed and strength of players is greater than a decade back (e.g., I believe that every LL men's soccer team now has dedicated strength coaches and year-around soccer-specific training programs). It may be that soccer skills are greater than a decade ago, but that is not the difference-maker in increased injury.
I think that the number of quality/skilled players has improved. The sheer amount of clubs and the growth of soccer (fitness programs, year round leagues, etc.) has been very steep. So these players are all spreading out to D3 programs making them somewhat balanced. Having said that, can you elaborate a bit on your take on the RIT and Clarkson programs?
Quote from: Part_Bart on July 11, 2017, 04:59:30 PM
Seems like roster sizes have been growing the past few years. My guess is that this is due in some part to the link to enrollment -- particularly at private liberal arts colleges (LAC) and some to chance (college coaches make 30 offers hoping to get seven or eight commits. Some years they get ten, etc.). But mostly I think the roster growth is due to (a) more talent distribution and (b) more injuries. On talent distribution: there are now literally thousands of kids who come from similar-level club programs and who have the grades and money to attend the top 150 D3 colleges that have competitive soccer -- all with about the same soccer potential. On injuries, the NCAA data on season-ending injuries suggests a small uptick over the past decade. The data on the number of players who miss games due to injury is harder to get. My half-baked assessment of UAA, NSCAC, Empire, Liberty League and SUNYAC teams suggests that more kids are being held out for concussions, there are more knee and ankle injuries, and that the rosters are bigger (save at SUNYAC, which seems to have a roster limit that may be SUNY-driven). Moreover, the speed and strength of players is greater than a decade back (e.g., I believe that every LL men's soccer team now has dedicated strength coaches and year-around soccer-specific training programs). It may be that soccer skills are greater than a decade ago, but that is not the difference-maker in increased injury.
To the extent that roster sizes may have grown, at least in strong academic conferences like LL, NESCAC, and UAA, that may also be attributable, in part, to (a) loss of JV or reserve programs, and (b) availability of practice players due to class and lab scheduling. Coaches keep as many players as the administration will permit, so that younger players have an opportunity to develop at the varsity level. That was not a concern in the past, when schools regularly fielded JV or reserve squads. Also, with so many players being unavailable due to labs and late afternoon classes, keeping a small squad (e.g., less than 25) might yield insufficient practice numbers on a regular basis. I've heard coaches at multiple schools express this exact concern. Finally, at the end of the day, most coaches like a large squad, if for no other reason than it provides more players to push the starters for spots, preventing them from getting too comfortable. Increased competition often brings out the best in a team.
This is another interesting issue. I tend to think that larger rosters are a good thing IF the culture of a school supports that and the coach can thread the needle in terms of satisfaction level for players 16 thru 22 and then 23 through 30-30+. I've admired Rothert at Loras for apparently keeping as many as 45-50 kids very involved. The very large rosters appears to be typical for at least several of the Iowa schools. These teams often serve as their own fraternities. Overall, I fall on the side of believing that's a positive, but I have some ambivalence insofar as the identification with the soccer group makes things too comfortable and prevents exploring other groups and other aspects of the college. FWIW, I've noticed that even kids who lose interest or get cut still tend to hang with the soccer group. Some become team managers, some party with the group, and some become the team's biggest fans. Kenyon had one such former player turned fan who would show up at OWU games in a cape with a sword chanting non-stop and trying to get the attention of Coach Martin.
Quote from: Part_Bart on July 11, 2017, 04:59:30 PMhr]
And now a little bait for Clotpoll.....
Seems like roster sizes have been growing the past few years. My guess is that this is due in some part to the link to enrollment -- particularly at private liberal arts colleges (LAC) and some to chance (college coaches make 30 offers hoping to get seven or eight commits. Some years they get ten, etc.). But mostly I think the roster growth is due to (a) more talent distribution and (b) more injuries. On talent distribution: there are now literally thousands of kids who come from similar-level club programs and who have the grades and money to attend the top 150 D3 colleges that have competitive soccer -- all with about the same soccer potential. On injuries, the NCAA data on season-ending injuries suggests a small uptick over the past decade. The data on the number of players who miss games due to injury is harder to get. My half-baked assessment of UAA, NSCAC, Empire, Liberty League and SUNYAC teams suggests that more kids are being held out for concussions, there are more knee and ankle injuries, and that the rosters are bigger (save at SUNYAC, which seems to have a roster limit that may be SUNY-driven). Moreover, the speed and strength of players is greater than a decade back (e.g., I believe that every LL men's soccer team now has dedicated strength coaches and year-around soccer-specific training programs). It may be that soccer skills are greater than a decade ago, but that is not the difference-maker in increased injury.
Partbart, I dunno what to make of expanded rosters. It's definitely happening, and it's bled up into D1. There are probably a bunch of different reasons, and I think that whatever the reason, it's here to stay.
From my perspective, it's all one giant excuse. A good manager can run a meaningful practice with three players, and a truly good player wouldn't accept a shirt he hadn't earned, so to me, all I see are excuses. Shoot me.
Every D3 coach in every sport knows players will be lost to late classes and labs every day. That's part and parcel of getting to coach guys who are students first. However, a solid 18-21 man group is more than enough to generate a good daily practice session. One of the things I'd do as a D3 coach is devote- at minimum- one entire weekly practice session, in-season, to film work and game planning. I'd probably devote another in-season weekly session to yoga and stretching.
The prevailing idea in NCAA soccer is to base everything you do on your team's ability to press for 90'. That leads to roster expansion to accommodate liberal substitution, and many of the factors you mentioned (academics, concussions, serious injury) further swell team rosters. However, I'm betting that some coach is soon going to attempt to make a serious run going no more than 15-16 deep with playing time and playing a style that allows a properly periodised player to make it thru 80-90 minutes of every single game. Talent and tactics- empowered to stay on the pitch for a maximum of minutes- will beat waves of fresh runners.
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 11, 2017, 10:51:43 PM
Every D3 coach in every sport knows players will be lost to late classes and labs every day. That's part and parcel of getting to coach guys who are students first. However, a solid 18-21 man group is more than enough to generate a good daily practice session. One of the things I'd do as a D3 coach is devote- at minimum- one entire weekly practice session, in-season, to film work and game planning. I'd probably devote another in-season weekly session to yoga and stretching.
I suspect that a lot of D3 programs already do devote as much as a full training session per week to film work during the heart of the season. I'm not sure about the yoga and stretching, but "regen" sessions are quite popular these days.
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 11, 2017, 10:51:43 PM
The prevailing idea in NCAA soccer is to base everything you do on your team's ability to press for 90'. That leads to roster expansion to accommodate liberal substitution, and many of the factors you mentioned (academics, concussions, serious injury) further swell team rosters. However, I'm betting that some coach is soon going to attempt to make a serious run going no more than 15-16 deep with playing time and playing a style that allows a properly periodised player to make it thru 80-90 minutes of every single game. Talent and tactics- empowered to stay on the pitch for a maximum of minutes- will beat waves of fresh runners.
I would be interested in your thoughts about how many of the top D1 programs (e.g., UConn) roll with 12-14 players yet still manage to play a style unlike the type you are advocating. It's like they hear you on the "talent" part, but not the "tactics" part of your equation.
Quote from: sokermom on July 11, 2017, 05:27:43 PM
... Having said that, can you elaborate a bit on your take on the RIT and Clarkson programs?
Clarkson coach entering his third year, having taken over after the previous coach got into trouble with the law (the criminal case is settled, the civil case is, I think, still ongoing). Came from Vassar and has done a very nice job of stabilizing program and getting some good wins. I could see them placing anywhere from 4th to 9th in LL for 2017.
RIT always fields a competitive team and the coach seems to favor quick, technical and smallish players. This leads to some tough match-ups against physical teams (and there are four of them in LL and they play SUNY Brockport, too). In 2016, they were in the hunt for the 4th conference playoff spot until the last two weeks.
I'd be comfortable encouraging consideration if the academics of these places fit a young man's interests and abilities.
Agree with Clarkson.
Coach has done fairly well, but then again he wasn't trying to build a program while being framed by a crooked DA and police.
http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2016/sep/29/and-then-there-was-justice/
Former Clarkson Coach beat a charge brought against him with 0 evidence due to his race, and now is suing the police and DA who tried to frame him in civil court.
New Clarkson Coach has good pedigree from Vassar, but was also n all-time great player for Plattsburgh, while playing for Chris Waterbury.
I call RIT, Dr. Jeckeyll and Mr. Hyde...
Team could win any game or lose any game, been that way for some time.
Haven't read everything in this thread but has St. Thomas been mentioned as a potential candidate for emerging programs? Went from 9-8-2 in 2014 to 12-7-1 and losing in the conference final in 2015 to 20-2-3 in 2016 and the Final 4. According to their website and schedule release, St. Thomas graduated six seniors but is expected return over 60% of their goal scoring and their top goalie. I think they can be considered an emerging team at this point.
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 12, 2017, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 11, 2017, 10:51:43 PM
Every D3 coach in every sport knows players will be lost to late classes and labs every day. That's part and parcel of getting to coach guys who are students first. However, a solid 18-21 man group is more than enough to generate a good daily practice session. One of the things I'd do as a D3 coach is devote- at minimum- one entire weekly practice session, in-season, to film work and game planning. I'd probably devote another in-season weekly session to yoga and stretching.
I suspect that a lot of D3 programs already do devote as much as a full training session per week to film work during the heart of the season. I'm not sure about the yoga and stretching, but "regen" sessions are quite popular these days.
Quote from: Clotpoll on July 11, 2017, 10:51:43 PM
The prevailing idea in NCAA soccer is to base everything you do on your team's ability to press for 90'. That leads to roster expansion to accommodate liberal substitution, and many of the factors you mentioned (academics, concussions, serious injury) further swell team rosters. However, I'm betting that some coach is soon going to attempt to make a serious run going no more than 15-16 deep with playing time and playing a style that allows a properly periodised player to make it thru 80-90 minutes of every single game. Talent and tactics- empowered to stay on the pitch for a maximum of minutes- will beat waves of fresh runners.
I would be interested in your thoughts about how many of the top D1 programs (e.g., UConn) roll with 12-14 players yet still manage to play a style unlike the type you are advocating. It's like they hear you on the "talent" part, but not the "tactics" part of your equation.
D1 teams that don't rotate their squads, yet play boomball? Check the results. UConn is a team that fields guys who look like decathletes, yet they wilt come tournament time.
Quote from: Ommadawn on July 12, 2017, 01:35:28 AM
I suspect that a lot of D3 programs already do devote as much as a full training session per week to film work during the heart of the season. I'm not sure about the yoga and stretching, but "regen" sessions are quite popular these days.
Yes! Worth noting that most of the competitive D3 programs now have access to a strength and conditioning coach/training program. While this counts against the total hours per week of contact time, most teams are expecting these coaches to put their athletes through sport-specific strength work, dynamic stretching (and re-generation), etc -- often five or six hours' devoted to this (from 20 total contact hours while in season, not including travel) each week.
It seems like the use of video analysis has been growing to where clubs and high school programs are starting to dabble. There are very useful video marking tools (e.g., Coaches Eye and Dartfish are the two I've used, albeit for a sport that is not soccer. There are many other vide marking tools). For D3 programs, the limitation is staff. Less than 1/4 of the 400 plus D3 men's teams have a full-time assistant (about 1/4 still have a part-time head coach...). So, finding staff time to DO the analysis is challenging given the real needs of practice, compliance, recruiting, and other staff duties. Again, the top 100 or so programs are finding ways to do the video prep work (student managers, injured players, course projects for some class or student, etc.).
As an aside, my guess is that the next step in the athletic department arms race will be nutrition. The Power 5 conferences (D1) have been pursuing this angle with training tables, athlete snack bars, nutritional counseling, etc, for some years. The secondary benefits are pretty powerful. Good ideas propagate pretty quickly across coaches, so the idea of doing more with nutrition (and this is NOT A GATORADE AD), combined with strength/conditioning, and the mantra of a 24 hour athlete (eat, sleep and train well) is likely to catch on with the well-funded D3 programs (NESCAC, UAA, Centennial, Liberty, etc). Curious to hear from others if they have knowledge this happening.
Already happening, even in middle of the pack D3 schools.
Quality of athletic trainers is a big variable. For most D3 programs I've seen, trainers are ice, tape, whirlpool guys with rare exception. Most I've met are still afraid of kinestheology tape. Dynamic stretching, yoga? Yeah, right.
My son is really fortunate, as his team has a terrific trainer who designed & supervises offseason running, gym work and nutrition, as well as in-season mandatory recovery...the whole nine yards.
Trainers can be a valuable asset to a team if they are doing all that but they can also be known to "baby" some of these kids which can affect team morale after a while.
Just to be clear: Trainers are an important part of any team, absolutely. If the team you follow has the services of a gifted trainer, it has a distinct advantage! Skilled trainers (e.g., http://www.nata.org) can speed up recovery from injury and its a very demanding job (I am happily married to one). But, trainers are not the people who do the strength and conditioning (e.g., https://www.cscca.org). Older folk like me might want to call these people weight lifting coaches. But, the science (and the sport-specificity) in this area have been leading to significant changes in athlete capacity (giving players the strength to kick the ball even further downfield, to Clotpoll's delight). Fifteen years ago it was rare for a soccer team to be doing weightlifting OUT of season, if at all. Today it would be very unusual for any competitive team to not be in the weight room several times a week in season, with a year-round lifting program in support of this effort.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on July 12, 2017, 09:37:24 AM
Haven't read everything in this thread but has St. Thomas been mentioned as a potential candidate for emerging programs? Went from 9-8-2 in 2014 to 12-7-1 and losing in the conference final in 2015 to 20-2-3 in 2016 and the Final 4. According to their website and schedule release, St. Thomas graduated six seniors but is expected return over 60% of their goal scoring and their top goalie. I think they can be considered an emerging team at this point.
Based on what you wrote, I think St. Thomas is a really good example of an emerging team. In the New England area, I think one of the emerging teams is St. Joseph's of Maine. When Coach Adrian Dubois took over in 2014, St. Joe's was 5-15. With his first recruiting class in place, they finished 11-7-1 in 2015 and then 15-2-6 in 2016, winning their first NCAA game ever in PKs vs. Babson. Not bad for a team playing mostly sophomores and freshmen in 2016. They return 67% of their scoring from last year, but their core strength is their defense/goaltending. If they can find more ways to score this year, they could be dangerous. I'd like to see them beef up their schedule a little bit to include more of the traditional New England powerhouses, though.
I would look out for Endicott again this year... this has been a program slowly making strides over the past few seasons. Last year they played a ton of freshman and played the whole season without all-american CB Ocko and one of their key defensive midfielders. They are only graduating one starter (an important one in GK Weinstein). They are also bringing in 4 Academy kids who seemed to have succeeded at Oakwood. They play a pretty tough schedule again this season. If they can fill the GK void they will be very strong. The game I saw them play against Wentworth last year they won 2-0 and completely dominated. They should be the favorites to win the CCC this year... Calabrese has definitely turned this program around.
I agree on Endicott. The last few years they have been a tournament quality team that hasn't made the tournament. Weinstein was one of the better keepers in New England so he will tough to replace. They also lose one defensive starter, but bring back all of their difference makers. Along with Wentworth and Gordon they will be one of the favorites. Assuming Ocko is 100% he is a big addition. He's a physical and determined defender and his long throw is very dangerous. Their 2015 team was the most talented team they have ever had but this year's could rival or surpass it.