Interesting article: https://slate.com/sports/2017/12/wesleyan-university-football-is-good-business.html
Focuses on some of the D3 topics we all know and love. Some partial quotes:
"Among Wesleyan's peers in the New England Small College Athletic Conference, Colby has announced plans to build a $200 million athletic complex; Williams spent $22 million to renovate its football stadium; Amherst spent $12.5 million on its stadium; and Middlebury has a new $46 million athletic fieldhouse."
"[...]Wesleyan's quest to recruit better athletes has essentially created a school within a school. Nearly 25 percent of those 3,000 undergrads play varsity sports, and close to 10 percent of each class is admitted through a process that gives preferential treatment to athletes. " (emphasis mine)
"While [Wesleyan President] Roth may look askance at the massive sums rival schools have spent on athletics, he is fully aware that a better football team and a stronger sports culture are good for the university's bottom line. Wesleyan, which phased out need-blind admissions in 2012 and whose $800 million endowment is less than half that of its rivals Amherst and Williams, feels it needs all the money it can get. Biddiscombe, the former athletic director, says the fundraising response to Wesleyan's football success has been 'significant.' "
"NESCAC rules allow schools to grant admission to a certain number of athletes who fall below typical academic qualifying standards [...] SAT scores for this group of students tended to be in the 1,100 range on the 1,600 scale compared to around 1,400 for other students."
Wonder how many other conferences (or schools) have similar rules for athletes. Probably a good number.
More on Colby's new 350,000 sf facility, complete with indoor track and Olympic pool: http://www.colby.edu/news/2017/04/27/colby-to-break-ground-on-all-new-athletic-complex/
I'm betting not too many conferences have a rule about what schools can do, because the conferences themselves contain a much wider disparity in the academic quality of the schools. The NESCAC, as little as I want to add to their already massive egos, isreally a conference that is only comparable to the Ivy League in terms of academic quality and standards top to bottom. So this type of conference wide limit is much more important to them than it would be to any other conference.
What point would there be in setting academic bands in the ODAC with W&L and, say, Va Wes? Those schools have to be free to set what is acceptable to them in terms of lower bands of student athletes.
I would say that the UAA is D3's closest analogue to the Ivy League, not the NESCAC, given that the Ivy League is basically a collection of top-tier private research universities, as is the UAA.
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
I would say that the UAA is D3's closest analogue to the Ivy League, not the NESCAC, given that the Ivy League is basically a collection of top-tier private research universities, as is the UAA.
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
I didn't really consider the UAA. But my comparison was more from an athletic perspective. In conference athletics is pretty important to the Ivy alums and the NESCAC alums, at least in the premiere sports. I'm not sure the UAA schools and alums have the same passion, therefore it probably isn't the same importance to have the kind of league wide admissions restrictions the NESCAC has mandated.
That's true. The general attitude towards intercollegiate sports in the UAA seems to range from complete unawareness to benign indifference.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
St Olaf won the Cereal Bowl this year. Apparently there has been sufficient improvement in the football program such that it disqualified their academic prowess.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2017, 04:38:22 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
St Olaf won the Cereal Bowl this year. Apparently there has been sufficient improvement in the football program such that it disqualified their academic prowess.
And yet the St. Olaf choir can still sing better than any choral group from the other side of Northfield.
Um-yah-yah and
Uffda. ;)
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2017, 04:38:22 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
St Olaf won the Cereal Bowl this year. Apparently there has been sufficient improvement in the football program such that it disqualified their academic prowess.
And yet the St. Olaf choir can still sing better than any choral group from the other side of Northfield. Um-yah-yah and Uffda. ;)
Merry Christmas, to you, Warren, and your lovely bride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdSQzO811Hw&list=RD31ej08ocqTw&index=2
And Merry Christmas to you, Ralph. Lutherans love to sing, don't they?
Thanks for your mention of my "lovely bride" (of 50+ years). She's an Ole '64 and a veteran of the US Army Nurse Corps (Ft. Sam Houston, 1964-65; 93rd Evac Hospital, Long Binh, Republic of South Viet Nam, 1965-66; Walter Reed US Army Hospital, 1966-67).
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2017, 04:38:22 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
St Olaf won the Cereal Bowl this year. Apparently there has been sufficient improvement in the football program such that it disqualified their academic prowess.
And yet the St. Olaf choir can still sing better than any choral group from the other side of Northfield. Um-yah-yah and Uffda. ;)
As soon as WT raised his hue and cry, I knew that there would be a "the Oles can outsing anybody!" (or somesuch) declaration hard upon its heels.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2017, 04:38:22 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 21, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM
As a collection of top-tier private liberal arts colleges, the NESCAC really doesn't have an analogue in D1. Its peers are mostly scattered throughout D3 (Grinnell, Carleton, Washington & Lee, Swarthmore, possibly a few others), with a very precious few peers in D1 (Colgate and Davidson are the only two that come to mind).
What! You cite Carleton above but not its cross-town rival (and my wife's alma mater)? :o
St Olaf won the Cereal Bowl this year. Apparently there has been sufficient improvement in the football program such that it disqualified their academic prowess.
And yet the St. Olaf choir can still sing better than any choral group from the other side of Northfield. Um-yah-yah and Uffda. ;)
As soon as WT raised his hue and cry, I knew that there would be a "the Oles can outsing anybody!" (or somesuch) declaration hard upon its heels.
At least he only claimed "better than ... other side of Northfield." iwu70 won't have to chime in about Titan opera! ;D
I doubt that he would ever find his way over here on his own ... and I trust that you'll keep this our little secret from him, Chuck. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 07:29:35 PM
I doubt that he would ever find his way over here on his own ... and I trust that you'll keep this our little secret from him, Chuck. ;)
Ooh! SO tempting to PM him, but I won't. 8-) I can't recall him ever posting except on CCIW boards, but who knows what he may read? On the other hand, he is still an active academic, while I'm long retired, so maybe he does only read CCIW stuff.
Back to the article - football IS good business for many D3 schools, because of the enrollment and retention that come with it.
But I don't think the article would be written about the MIAC - or the NCAC when their schools started to invest in athletics / wellness centers on-campus.
I think of the Patriot League (the original, really, the non-scholarship version when it first existed) when I think of the NESCAC - Army, Navy, Lafayette, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Colgate, Bucknell, Fordham), though American, BU, and Loyola-MD aren't exactly dumbing down the league.
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
Quote from: doolittledog on December 22, 2017, 09:46:36 AM
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
I think most schools have allowances for students with special skills to fill slots even if they don't match the class average for test scores and grades. We tend to think primarily of sports in this regard, but it is also true for diversity purposes, members of the band, and other things.
In fact, in higher education right now there is a bit of debate about what to do with men as the gender ratios become more skewed. It would not surprise me, if this pattern continues, if the overall academic qualifications of women on campuses outstrips, or has already outstripped, men as the schools try and remain balanced.
As far as sports go, the NESCAC has had the tipping system for years. I don't know of any other conference that mandates the number of tips the way the NESCAC does, but I believe the vast majority of high through moderate academic schools will bend the standards a bit for athletes. How much and how many is up to the schools.
DIII really has nothing to say about this. It's just part of the myriad of competitive advantages and disadvantages that the low regulation DIII landscape fosters.
We do think of sports for obvious reasons in the admissions standards and that some athletes get in below the standards of normal athletes, but as said above there are a lot of contributing factors. I am pretty confident my admissions to Goucher was because I was a guy ten years or so after they went co-ed. Yes, I played sports, but even if I didn't, they were most likely admitting me based on my sex.
Schools admit students based on other determining factors all of the time. Band, singing, drama, dance, particular majors, etc. Sports is not unique in this and admissions departments don't hide the fact. There is a reason what a student does outside of the classroom and what they are involved in can be just as important as their grades.
I do think many schools are moving away from rigid test scores + GPA as admission requirements.
The former Dean of the College at Wabash said that high test scores by themselves don't offer any insight into retention. In fact, Wabash's experience was that high test scores + average grades = lower retention.
I'm not a fan of rigid test scores for admission. Dubuque has been known to talk to high school teachers to get a better idea of the potential of prospective students.
I understand schools wanting to pursue certain ratios for male/female, or minorities, or from a certain cross section of the nation. I also understand a school wanting to build enrollment through athletics. It just seemed odd a D3 school would lower their admission standards specifically for athletes.
Quote from: doolittledog on December 22, 2017, 09:46:36 AM
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
More than likely the schools don't frame it exactly this way, even if the Slate artice did. Because, you're right, they would be violating NCAA Division III rules. It's more likely done as a special skills or leadership allowance which is granted to a large number of students in a variety of areas. If it was specifically listed as a athletics exception and available ony to potential student-athletes, it would be in violation.
Quote from: Just Bill on December 23, 2017, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on December 22, 2017, 09:46:36 AM
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
More than likely the schools don't frame it exactly this way, even if the Slate artice did. Because, you're right, they would be violating NCAA Division III rules. It's more likely done as a special skills or leadership allowance which is granted to a large number of students in a variety of areas. If it was specifically listed as a athletics exception and available ony to potential student-athletes, it would be in violation.
I don't think so. DIII is against scholarships for athletes, it has no say in whether admissions are equal for athletes and non-athletes across the student body. This is a discussion about admission standards for athletes, not about costs defrayment, therefore it has no bearing on DIII rules.
Quote from: Just Bill on December 23, 2017, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on December 22, 2017, 09:46:36 AM
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
More than likely the schools don't frame it exactly this way, even if the Slate artice did. Because, you're right, they would be violating NCAA Division III rules. It's more likely done as a special skills or leadership allowance which is granted to a large number of students in a variety of areas. If it was specifically listed as a athletics exception and available ony to potential student-athletes, it would be in violation.
Not sure leadership is allowed.mich anymore. I heard when my son was being recruited and shortly afterward, of several schools getting into trouble, due to offering leadership scholarships. A disproportionate number was going to athletes, at those schools. I will try to find the article and post it later if I can find it.
Found it. It is more recent than I thought. I must be getting old.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/05/dozens-division-iii-colleges-violated-financial-aid-rules-past-decade
If you read the article, the average athlete admitted under these provisions actually requires LESS financial aid than those that meet normal admission standards, so the NCAA's stringent financial aid restrictions don't come into play.
The "leadership" stuff got phased out when the NCAA went to the percentage system. There's a pretty tight margin for athletes vs non-athletes in terms of non-need scholarships. They can still get "leadership" money, but it's got to be in the same proportion as non-athletes. The best way to get a great education - whether you're an athlete or not - is get good grades and be poor.
Quote from: doolittledog on December 22, 2017, 09:46:36 AM
No athletic scholarships, and athletes are supposed to receive the same amount of aid as non-athletes at the D3 level. Yet a school can admit athletes that don't meet the academic standard of non-athlete students? That seems to go a bit against the D3 philosophy.
OK, I found a thread by pure accident that hits on the points I was trying to make in the D3soccer threads, and the post above (by someone with a remarkable karma ratio) really hits what I was trying to get at (and in much very words!). The thing about "age" in the other threads really sidetracked how folks read my posts. I was NOT trying to get at age, but rather the "seriousness" in D3, whether that has changed (more serious over time), etc, etc.
In terms of the content, a couple of points. The NESCAC is far more like the Ivies than the UAA, AT LEAST from a cultural, East Coast/New England elite standpoint. The Ivies are both liberal arts AND research universities, but are more likely than the UAA schools to have philosophy and English majors than the UAAs (although the latter certainly have their share). A nickname of the NESCAC schools for years in fact has been "The Little Ivies." A agree that in general there is also an emphasis on athletics in the IVY League and NESCAC that is different from the vibe of the UAAs.
Secondly, I will reiterate that recruited athletes are NOT the same as "recruited" singers, tuba players, jugglers, debate team guys and gals. Never heard of a NESCAC "tip" for a tuba player or a dramatic lowering of admissions standards for such....more likely that extracurriculars make a difference among test/grad-wise equal candidates rather than a significant dip down.
Finally, I find the UAA just genius and whoever came up with it was really smart. I'm curious about what went into selecting them as the geographic diversity seems unique in the NCAA at large (except for the recent D1 conference adjustments and changes). I now JHU used to be with the UAA, which makes sense, and Tufts also should be UAA.
BTW, the "arms race" mentioned in this thread regarding deluxe facilities is also very relevant to what I was trying to get at before. I think the latest round may have started with my dear friend Kenyon which built one of the nicest complexes in the country 10 or more years ago, and now we see many other schools follow.....not necessarily just for athletic recruiting but also as a draw for students at large. I'm sure Colby is extremely excited about the opening soon of their new complex.
UAA schools are all members of the Association of American Universities (see the name twist?), research universities. Only other D3 institutions that are members are JHU, MIT, and CalTech, but not Tufts.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 02:37:25 PMThe NESCAC is far more like the Ivies than the UAA, AT LEAST from a cultural, East Coast/New England elite standpoint. The Ivies are both liberal arts AND research universities, but are more likely than the UAA schools to have philosophy and English majors than the UAAs (although the latter certainly have their share).
Disagree, unless you're focusing exclusively upon the East Coast cultural elitism standpoint (and upon athletics, a point to which I previously agreed). Whether the Ivies average more humanities majors than the UAA or not, the Ivies are still classified as research universities, not as liberal arts colleges. They are substantially larger than liberal arts colleges, with student bodies either the same size as, or somewhat larger than, UAA schools, while non-Tufts NESCAC institutions top out at Wesleyan's 2,900. At four of the eight Ivies graduate students outnumber the undergraduates, while at three of the eight UAA schools the postgrads are more numerous. By stark contrast, six of the eleven NESCAC institutions are "pure" liberal arts colleges (no graduate programs at all), and of the other five schools, only Tufts has what can be deemed a large (both in scope and in population) graduate-level presence. Seven of the eight Ivy League schools (excluding Dartmouth) are members of the elite Association of American Universities, which is considered to be the peer group of top-tier research universities in the United States and Canada. All eight UAA schools are members of the AAU. By contrast, none of the NESCAC schools are AAU members, for the obvious reason that they're not research universities. At the Ivies, like the UAA and all other research institutions, research and publishing are the key aspects of tenured professorship, while TAs do a lot of the actual teaching at the undergrad level.
Tufts is the anomaly. It's a research university competing athletically in a league of liberal arts colleges.
Culturally and with regard to athletics, the NESCAC lines up more with its Ivy neighbors than does the UAA. But in terms of the institutions themselves, the Ivy League and the UAA are alike, while the NESCAC is different from both.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 02:37:25 PMFinally, I find the UAA just genius and whoever came up with it was really smart. I'm curious about what went into selecting them as the geographic diversity seems unique in the NCAA at large (except for the recent D1 conference adjustments and changes). I now JHU used to be with the UAA, which makes sense, and Tufts also should be UAA.
The history of the league can be found here, (http://www.uaasports.info/information/aboutuaa/historical) including the names of several of the key figures who helped found the league. It's interesting to note that the first discussions in earnest about forming a league of D3 research universities took place at a convention of the Association of American Universities.
Johns Hopkins was a great fit with the UAA. I'm not sure why it eventually pulled out of the league, although I suspect that the league's unique travel situation might've had something to do with it. As you said, Tufts is really a better fit for the UAA than for the NESCAC, although the fact that Tufts isn't a member of the AAU might hold it back from ever receiving an offer from the UAA to join. MIT and Caltech are also schools that fit the institutional profile of the league, although the national competitiveness of the UAA within various D3 sports would likely make it just as unappealing to Caltech's leadership as would the cross-continental travel.
And I thought you didn't consider yourself knowledgeable about the NESCACs ;)
We can agree to disagree. You are correct on the one point, which I have endorsed in the past wondering about Tufts and Hopkins as UAAs. In every other regard, and if you go by what people on the East Coast and New England actually live and think, the Ivies and NESCACs are cut of the same cloth if different sizes of cloth. There is a tremendous geographic overlap and even Princeton and Penn have the "feel" of New England. The crossover for applicants I'm sure also is higher between Ivies and NESCACs versus UAAs. It is hard to minimize the cultural aspect....or what it is like to actually attend these schools. I would guess most would say the NESCACs are more similar to the Ivies than the UAAs, and to some extent it is perhaps because the "colleges" of these schools are very well separated from the graduate programs. There is also the enormous history of the New England prep schools which also correlates with Ivies and NESCACs.
What NESCAC and UAA DO share is the relative alleged excellence from top to bottom. The Centennial and NCAC cannot match the top to bottom reputation of the aforementioned. And the other great LACs -- Carleton, Pomona, Oberlin, Kenyon, Grinnell, Macalester are overall pretty different than that NESCACs -- perhaps similar to Stanford, Duke, Rice, Vandy, G'Town, Notre Dame, etc being different than the Ivies. Certainly every bit as good in most cases but a little different all the same.
The fact that this thread started with Wesleyan is fascinating....probably at least by reputation the least focused NESCAC on athletics, and closer in some ways to Oberlin and Vassar than to other NESCACs.
One might argue that Tufts is more UAA-like than Brandeis....and I'd guess that Tufts could gain admission to the AAU if wanted to bad enough.
Anyway, the UAA in my view was a real stroke of genius...a real national feel as opposed to the very geographic Ivy/NESCAC.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:01:05 PM
And I thought you didn't consider yourself knowledgeable about the NESCACs ;)
I'm not. Their identity as liberal arts colleges is commonly known by everyone who is at least moderate familiar with the D3 national scene. Besides, you can't post in the D3 men's basketball national boards for very long without some NESCAC alumnus posting that whole "we have the best liberal arts colleges in the nation" bragging point.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:01:05 PMWe can agree to disagree. You are correct on the one point, which I have endorsed in the past wondering about Tufts and Hopkins as UAAs. In every other regard, and if you go by what people on the East Coast and New England actually live and think, the Ivies and NESCACs are cut of the same cloth if different sizes of cloth. There is a tremendous geographic overlap and even Princeton and Penn have the "feel" of New England. The crossover for applicants I'm sure also is higher between Ivies and NESCACs versus UAAs. It is hard to minimize the cultural aspect....or what it is like to actually attend these schools. I would guess most would say the NESCACs are more similar to the Ivies than the UAAs, and to some extent it is perhaps because the "colleges" of these schools are very well separated from the graduate programs. There is also the enormous history of the New England prep schools which also correlates with Ivies and NESCACs.
The "one point" is by far the most important point of all, because it's the point that involves the mission, structure, and function of the schools in question. Culture, geography, athletics ... all of those aspects, important as they are, are secondary to the actual nature of those institutions. UAA and Ivy League schools are peers in their most important facet, academics, as is reflected in their common AAU membership. The NESCAC schools stand apart from them in that regard.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
One might argue that Tufts is more UAA-like than Brandeis....and I'd guess that Tufts could gain admission to the AAU if wanted to bad enough.
I'm not so sure about that. Tufts is obviously a great school, and it appears to have many of the requirements checked off (including a med school and affiliated hospitals, which is what seems to have submarined the University of Nebraska-Lincoln's membership). It seems like a logical prospective member to me, too. However, the AAU is extremely zealous in its gatekeeping. Syracuse University left the AAU because it felt that the organization was moving the goalposts when it changed its membership requirements regarding federally-funded research.
Ummmm, no. They are also VERY similar with academics and mission....and hence the huge crossover of applicants. Not sure how you get to decide what factors are Tier 1 factors and what is Tier 2.
And Tufts would easily fall in the middle to top-middle of the UAA prestige wise. Tufts would have no problem with AAU IF they wanted it. Anyway, Tufts is more like the UAA than Brandeis arguably...that was my point.
At least we've established that our continuing to disagree has zero to do with age and NPU athletics.
In the learn something new everyday category, I did not realize Brandeis was so small (I knew it was small, but it is small) and that Tufts was so big. Tufts is not much smaller than Case Western Reserve.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:33:19 PM
Ummmm, no. They are also VERY similar with academics and mission....and hence the huge crossover of applicants. Not sure how you get to decide what factors are Tier 1 factors and what is Tier 2.
The very existence of large and extensive graduate schools -- graduate schools that contain a huge share of the overall resources of faculty and funding of their respective universities -- at Ivy League schools disproves your point. If you're pursuing a doctorate in molecular biology or a master's degree in nuclear medicine, the NESCAC isn't even on your radar. You're talking about UAA and Ivy League schools. That's the whole point -- colleges and universities exist for academic purposes (at least that's the general idea, although certain D1 men's basketball and football types would disagree about that), and it's the academic and missional aspects that make the UAA and the Ivy League kindred spirits and AAU peers.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:33:19 PMAnd Tufts would easily fall in the middle to top-middle of the UAA prestige wise. Tufts would have no problem with AAU IF they wanted it.
I'm not discounting Tufts' prestige at all. I've already attested to it. I'm simply wary of pronouncements made without any evidence presented that presume to speak for a remarkably insular and self-protective clique of institutions that is notorious for pulling up the drawbridge for reasons that some people in academia consider to be spurious or contrived. (Not saying that I agree with the disaffected, just that that's the argument that's been put forth by people from schools such as Nebraska and Syracuse.)
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 05:33:19 PMAt least we've established that our continuing to disagree has zero to do with age and NPU athletics.
True dat. :D
You seem to like citing data when you believe the data "proves" some point of yours....but when data is presented that contradicts your point or points you seem to simply ignore or dismiss it (e.g. no matter how widespread the use of "professionalization" as an adjective for youth or college sports you just continued to say it's inappropriate.
In any case, you are just plain wrong on this other issue. As the majority of folks who attend these school or who live in the Northeast. Are you suggesting the NESCACs aren't "academic"? Do you think they produce any of the graduate students, MDs, lawyers, Ph.Ds at Ivy and UAA grad schools? This is no knock on the UAA schools (I love them and I had a kid graduate from one), but in the Northeast and New England we think of Ivies and NESCAC going together (including mission) more so than the UAAs. You are confusing undergrad and grad programs.
You keep arguing in tautologies. And you completely missed the larger point regarding why I chimed in on this thread....the "professionalization" or if you prefer "seriousalization" of athletic programs and facilities even in D3, and even at the esteemed, academic NESCACs.
Syracuse and Nebraska...in same sentence with Tufts? OK.
"If you're pursuing a doctorate in molecular biology or a master's degree in nuclear medicine, the NESCAC isn't even on your radar."
Say what??? How many freshmen in college start out thinking doctorate in molecular biology? At any school, research-heavy or otherwise? Not many. And of course if you're thinking doctorate in molecular biology you aren't thinking NESCAC because those schools don't offer doctorates. Duh! On the other hand, attending a NESCAC is a perfectly fine way to find one's way into a molecular biology Ph.D. program. The issue is undergrad to undergrad, not moving the bar to undergrad versus graduate.
Earlier, as I was looking at Tufts.edu, and while I was looking at the various PhD programs, I happened to notice that they have a PhD program in Biology with a specialization in Genetics and Molecular Biology.
https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/graduate/researchGenetics.htm
Grad schools and PhD programs aren't that common in D-3. The UAA is an odd bird in D-3. I think most schools are where they want to be in terms of conferences and the match to the type of schools and program - or qualifying for an auto bid.
It shows elitism that association is an pretty presitgious group of schools (the AAU), and that Tufts is similar to them somehow besmirches Tufts.
My controversial opinion - the NESCAC is no better or worse for students than any other D-3 school. I know in the past I've poked fun at the OAC from an NCAC perspective, but my work at a D-2 state school that serves the underserved population kind of changed my thought process on this. Reputation means nothing if your students don't emerge as leaders and learners. I have seen the same result at CWU as I have at Wabash - it can definitely be transformative for students.
Johns Hopkins left the UAA (where it was a part-time/schedule member anyway; they didn't play a full schedule of games - i.e. they only played a single-round of basketball games) because travel wasn't in their best interest. They didn't want to spend the money or the time traveling. The UAA has tried HARD to get JHU back in the fold ... to no avail. There is no interest.
On the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.
One of the keys when it comes to UAA schools is being in a major metropolitan area - thus why the UAA wants JHU back. They have a school in the Baltimore (and Washington, DC) metroplex. That is a feather in their caps and opens a great door with recruiting.
As for Tufts ... many of the points Sager has presented (AAU ... talk about not only a word twist, but an acronym oddity) are accurate, PaulNewmann, as much as you may not want to agree with them. AAU membership I am sure is part of the equation ... the other part is that the UAA only wants (whether they will say it or not) school in each metroplex. It is pointless to have two because then they are competing against one another in a lot of ways. Brandeis as the Boston area ... for now.
Also another point, before arguing whether Tufts should or shouldn't be in the UAA ... did anyone consider asking Tufts if they wanted to be IN the UAA? There is a very, very real chance that Tufts, like JHU, is NOT interested in that kind of travel schedule each year. They also may not want to take on the costs associated with that schedule.
This point would also be made if you think about the fact that MIT and CalTech are NOT part of the UAA. Those institutions do NOT spend a lot of money with their athletic departments to travel (or for other bells and whistles, though that is changing). The most obvious choice would seem to be MIT and Caltech in terms of AAU and other reasons ... but, that doesn't mean MIT, Caltech, JHU, etc. are interested themselves.
Another thing to consider, how many sports should a school participate in the UAA? You might be surprised if you look at the UAA how many of the sports do NOT have AQs or are listed, but the schools don't really compete in the UAA together (i.e. football and other sports). Rochester is a good example, they are only involved in the UAA in a handful of sports - the rest are in the Liberty League (which Rochester is a founding member).
To be honest, I have been wondering of late how close the UAA is to dissolving as we know it. Just a thought to put in the minds of those who care ... if the UAA were to lose one school (I do have one in mind, but not going to spin the rumor mill), it could put things in motion that would result in the UAA maybe ending as we currently know it - maybe staying around for some reasons, but not as an AQ conference. There are not a lot of options for the UAA if it were to lose membership.
That said ... I know of a school in another major metropolitan that is apparently angling to be in the UAA. They have made tremendous strides to raise their institution to a Tier 1 research school ... and apparently the idea of being in the UAA is attractive to them - or at least I have been told. We shall see.
Final thought, PaulNewman - while I appreciate your passion, I find it odd that you tend to want to fight and argue anyone who presents a counterpoint to you. Most of the time, those counterpoints are factual and come from a strong background in understanding the landscape and nuiances not only in Division III but in other particulars. You have a habit, for example, of not liking what Sager has to say and either moving the goalposts of the argument or trying to argue back something arcane.
Case in point:
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 08:40:41 PM
"If you're pursuing a doctorate in molecular biology or a master's degree in nuclear medicine, the NESCAC isn't even on your radar."
Say what??? How many freshmen in college start out thinking doctorate in molecular biology? At any school, research-heavy or otherwise? Not many. And of course if you're thinking doctorate in molecular biology you aren't thinking NESCAC because those schools don't offer doctorates. Duh! On the other hand, attending a NESCAC is a perfectly fine way to find one's way into a molecular biology Ph.D. program. The issue is undergrad to undergrad, not moving the bar to undergrad versus graduate.
Do you really think Sager is talking about freshmen? While I would contend there absolutely are freshmen and more than many of us realize who know exactly what their road is going to be through Ph.D. (and how many), Sager's bigger point had to do with the institutions. The argument was whether NESCAC schools are on the same level in terms of Tier 1 and such as the UAAs and Ivies. They are not. If ANY student is thinking about a "doctorate in molecular biology or a master's degree in nuclear medicine," they are not even considering Amherst, Williams, Tufts, etc. Sure, they might consider NESCACs if they don't have a clue about their overall direction or simply want to go pre-med, but once it comes to the doctorate ... they are gone.
However, I would also contend that if a high school student is considering a complicated doctorate in the future, they are eliminating schools like those in the NESCAC because they realize that isn't the right track for them. Simply put for the most part, the students at MIT are not also looking at Amherst.
If I am wrong, I am sure someone in the know will tell me ... but my point is, you shifted the argument. Instead of taking the general argument Sager is making, you shifted it (or made it arcane) to be only freshmen.
It is okay to discuss things, but you don't have to be so vitriol in your writing when people disagree or bring up points that maybe squash your argument. It has happened to me many a time and I learn from it. It is okay if your perspective is adjusted because someone points out something (like how DIII actually works and the top 20% of institutions in some ranking don't actually control things in the division as you argue or perceive) that changes it. Again, happens to me often and I've made it my business (without it paying like a business) to know as much as I possibly can know about how the NCAA and Division III works - in fact, learned something new today that changed my understanding and perception with the process of something very important.
My main point ... relax a bit. Argue something if you wish, but don't treat people like they are horrible for disagreeing with you, pointing out flaws in your argument, or simply stating something isn't accurate. It would make for a more enjoyable conversation.
Quote from: smedindy on September 25, 2018, 12:20:49 AM
Grad schools and PhD programs aren't that common in D-3. The UAA is an odd bird in D-3. I think most schools are where they want to be in terms of conferences and the match to the type of schools and program - or qualifying for an auto bid.
It shows elitism that association is an pretty presitgious group of schools (the AAU), and that Tufts is similar to them somehow besmirches Tufts.
My controversial opinion - the NESCAC is no better or worse for students than any other D-3 school. I know in the past I've poked fun at the OAC from an NCAC perspective, but my work at a D-2 state school that serves the underserved population kind of changed my thought process on this. Reputation means nothing if your students don't emerge as leaders and learners. I have seen the same result at CWU as I have at Wabash - it can definitely be transformative for students.
You are absolutely right ... if students don't get what they pay for (per se) out of a school, then there is no point and it doesn't matter the "prestige." Furthermore, one can get a terrific education and prepared for the rest of their careers at a LOT of schools. Sometimes the "letterhead" only means so much. Sometimes, people think they can get further because of the name on the degree - that isn't actually as accurate in the real world as people hope it would be (and I wish it was less important).
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PM
You seem to like citing data when you believe the data "proves" some point of yours....but when data is presented that contradicts your point or points you seem to simply ignore or dismiss it (e.g. no matter how widespread the use of "professionalization" as an adjective for youth or college sports you just continued to say it's inappropriate.
What data? You've presented none on this issue of institutional identities. You've simply made assertions.
I never denied that there were periodicals that used the term "professionalization" to refer to youth soccer. I simply said that I've never heard or read that term used, that I'm sure a lot of other people haven't, either, and that the word "professional" bears a very specific meaning in everyday conversation among most people that's different than what you were getting at. That's why I thought (and think) that it's dangerous to use that term when it can be so easily construed as referring to pay-to-play. At best, it's an infelicitous choice of terminology, no matter how often it's used or by whom.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMIn any case, you are just plain wrong on this other issue. As the majority of folks who attend these school or who live in the Northeast. Are you suggesting the NESCACs aren't "academic"?
Oh, come on. Now you're putting words in my mouth. You know darned well that I meant "academic" in the structural and missional sense, not in the sense that NESCAC schools aren't up to snuff in terms of quality. Making an assertion like that would be absolutely ridiculous; snobby though some of their alumni may be, there is absolutely no doubt that NESCAC schools offer some of the finest liberal arts education in the world, not just the country.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMDo you think they produce any of the graduate students, MDs, lawyers, Ph.Ds at Ivy and UAA grad schools?
This is really getting ridiculous.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMThis is no knock on the UAA schools (I love them and I had a kid graduate from one), but in the Northeast and New England we think of Ivies and NESCAC going together (including mission) more so than the UAAs.
Regional familiarity is no trump card. What matters is the actual structure and mission of the schools.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMYou are confusing undergrad and grad programs.
Quite the contrary. I'm simply asserting that grad programs exist, and that they're crucial to the identity of research universities. You keep waving them off and dismissing their importance in this discussion. Yet over half of the students enrolled at Ivy League schools are graduate students. They are the very reason that the term "research university" (and an organization like the AAU) exists.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMYou keep arguing in tautologies.
I'm forced to repeat myself because you keep denying the central importance of the basic structural and missional aspects of the Ivy League schools that make them research universities rather than liberal arts colleges. Believe me, I'd rather not continue to beat my head against this brick wall you're putting up. In fact, this will be the last time that I do so.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMAnd you completely missed the larger point regarding why I chimed in on this thread....the "professionalization" or if you prefer "seriousalization" of athletic programs and facilities even in D3, and even at the esteemed, academic NESCACs.
I didn't miss it. I'm simply not arguing about it. There's a difference.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 07:40:33 PMSyracuse and Nebraska...in same sentence with Tufts? OK.
Follow what's been going on with the AAU in terms of membership issues over the course of this decade. I didn't make this stuff up. It is what it is.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2018, 08:40:41 PM
"If you're pursuing a doctorate in molecular biology or a master's degree in nuclear medicine, the NESCAC isn't even on your radar."
Say what??? How many freshmen in college start out thinking doctorate in molecular biology? At any school, research-heavy or otherwise? Not many. And of course if you're thinking doctorate in molecular biology you aren't thinking NESCAC because those schools don't offer doctorates. Duh! On the other hand, attending a NESCAC is a perfectly fine way to find one's way into a molecular biology Ph.D. program. The issue is undergrad to undergrad, not moving the bar to undergrad versus graduate.
I was going to make a point about your response here, but Dave made it for me. NESCAC schools (Tufts aside, as pointed out by WUPHF) can't give you a doctorate in molecular biology or a master's in nuclear medicine, because they don't offer those programs. They are undergrad-centric schools, as all liberal arts colleges are, and those NESCAC schools that do offer graduate programs (again, aside from Tufts) offer only a limited number of them and have a relative handful of students enrolled in them. By sharp contrast, Ivies and UAA schools not only offer programs like nuclear medicine and molecular biology on the graduate level, among a plethora of other grad-school programs, the grad students in those programs make up a huge proportion of the overall student bodies of those universities, and, again, those grad schools account for a massive share of the resources of those universities in terms of faculty work and research.
I haven't moved the bar at all. This is what I have been saying all along -- research universities are simply a different animal altogether than liberal arts colleges. And postgraduate education is at the heart of that difference. That's why
U.S. News and World Report and all of the other periodicals that survey and compare institutions of higher learning classify the Ivies and the NESCAC schools in separate categories.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AM
Johns Hopkins left the UAA (where it was a part-time/schedule member anyway; they didn't play a full schedule of games - i.e. they only played a single-round of basketball games) because travel wasn't in their best interest. They didn't want to spend the money or the time traveling. The UAA has tried HARD to get JHU back in the fold ... to no avail. There is no interest.
Yeah, that's what I expected was the case. The cost and the time away from campus in order to play UAA schedules in multiple sports can be pretty daunting.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AMOn the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.
I would love to read jknezek's thoughts on this.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AM
Another thing to consider, how many sports should a school participate in the UAA? You might be surprised if you look at the UAA how many of the sports do NOT have AQs or are listed, but the schools don't really compete in the UAA together (i.e. football and other sports). Rochester is a good example, they are only involved in the UAA in a handful of sports - the rest are in the Liberty League (which Rochester is a founding member).
Interestingly enough, Rochester is also a founding member of the UAA as well, as documented in the historical piece from the UAA website that I linked for PaulNewman. That doesn't stop Chicago and Wash U from calling their traveling trophy in football the Founders Cup, though. ;)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AMTo be honest, I have been wondering of late how close the UAA is to dissolving as we know it. Just a thought to put in the minds of those who care ... if the UAA were to lose one school (I do have one in mind, but not going to spin the rumor mill), it could put things in motion that would result in the UAA maybe ending as we currently know it - maybe staying around for some reasons, but not as an AQ conference. There are not a lot of options for the UAA if it were to lose membership.
Boy, I would sure hate for that to happen. The UAA is an interesting and unique league that seems to be really solid across the board in terms of D3 national competition. I enjoy going to UAA contests at the U of C because, while they're largely a different flavor of ice cream altogether than CCIW contests, it's a
good flavor of ice cream.
Quote from: smedindy on September 25, 2018, 12:20:49 AM
Grad schools and PhD programs aren't that common in D-3. The UAA is an odd bird in D-3. I think most schools are where they want to be in terms of conferences and the match to the type of schools and program - or qualifying for an auto bid.
It shows elitism that association is an pretty presitgious group of schools (the AAU), and that Tufts is similar to them somehow besmirches Tufts.
My controversial opinion - the NESCAC is no better or worse for students than any other D-3 school. I know in the past I've poked fun at the OAC from an NCAC perspective, but my work at a D-2 state school that serves the underserved population kind of changed my thought process on this. Reputation means nothing if your students don't emerge as leaders and learners. I have seen the same result at CWU as I have at Wabash - it can definitely be transformative for students.
Well said, smeds. But, about that OAC thing ... does this mean that we can expect to find you tailgating at a Mount Union football game the next time you visit Ohio? ;)
This is disconcerting....especially the lecture about tone and relaxation. And moving goalposts. Be fair at least, and equitable and even-handed. I don't think I'm the one writing the repeated page-long responses.
This thread started out about NESCACs. jknezek was the first to link NESCACs to Ivies in terms of "top to bottom" consistency on academics and then specifically regarding athletics after Mr. Sager chimed in with his UAA counter (speaking of counters).
I'm not sure how one gets to decide what is most important in a discussion, or a first order factor versus a secondary one especially given the context of the original topics. Most in New England most readily link the Ivies and NESCACs. I won't go through all that again. And I agree with the point that the UAA shares the "top to bottom" academic quality of NESCAC. I am a UAA fan much more than a NESCAC fan in general. That NESCACs aren't research universities with a plethora of PhD programs is true, and kind of obvious, but has nothing to do with whether grads of NESCACs pursue MDs, JDs, PhDs, or with what the experience of being an UNDERGRAD is at these various schools. I'm a transplanted Southerner who lives in New England. I'm not arguing about how wonderful the Ivies and NESCACs are....just endorsing what jknezek said originally and adding that the cultural, style and yes even educational missions and vibes are more in the same genre than that UAAs (which in general I actually prefer)....just to make clear that my comments have nothing to do with any kind of superiority argument.
My point abut frosh was only to make the point that comparing undergrad to grad is not the same as comparing undergrad to undergrad....You're right about Amherst and MIT (not an Ivy), but there IS large crossover with Amherst/Williams and Dartmouth/Brown and even Harvard/Yale. And attending HARVARD COLLEGE is very different than attending HARVARD University.
I NEVER said Tufts WANTS to be in the UAA. I've commented on how it is a lot like UAA schools. Big difference. I'm sure Tufts is quite happy with their conference, and I also simply said I seriously doubted Tufts would have trouble getting in the AAU if so desired.
I also NEVER argued about the top 20 or 10% of D3 schools banding together as a powerful voting block to make major changes. Perhaps you are conflating posters, like with Mr.Right perhaps.
In terms of need to argue and make counter-points we could have simply agreed from the top that NESCAC and UAA both share some commonalities with Ivies. One would think that some deference would be given to folks who live where the Ivies and NESCACs live and have some feel for why they might be considered more alike than the UAAs.
Insisting on objecting to a term (and meaning) now common parlance? OK, fine. But you still know what the term (however wrongly you make think it's used) is getting at....and perhaps at some point we could hear your thoughts on that. On a side note, what DO we think about $50 and $100 million D3 sports complexes, "tips" that are NOT equivalent with instrument players, merit money finding its way to athletes because somehow we can find a way to say that playing baseball contributes to the school mission as much as a poetry writer?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AMOn the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.
Never heard of this and it sounds like an awful idea to me. W&L and the UAA schools share very little. The travel would be atrocious. I suspect the UAA travel schedule only remotely works because all the schools are in major metro areas with conveniently close major airports. None of that describes Lexington VA.
I know the SAA came to W&L both pre and post formation to gauge interest. Prior to joining the ODAC, W&L was in a conference with Centre and Sewanee and W&L certainly fits better with the SAA schools than the ODAC. However, W&L supposedly didn't even give it much consideration due to travel time and costs and this was prior to the Texas contingent being invited back.
Given that info, I have a hard time believing W&L really wants in to the UAA. The only possible upside is reputation by association. Powerful in one sense, but I just don't see W&L and the UAA schools scrapping for the same kids. My sister went to Carnegie Melon but she would have hated W&L's rural and small college atmosphere. I applied and was accepted to Emory, but I had little desire to be at a large urban school having visited CMU and applying was more a parental nod at the time.
However, I'm happy to admit that Dave is tied in to the D3 scene in a way I'm not and never will be. There is a high probability his information is much better than my conjecture.
This is a bit of nitpick, but regarding the fact that UAA schools also compete in other leagues with Rochester being the prime example, to be clear, Rochester competes in the UAA in (correct me if I am wrong) basketball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, swimming and diving, cross country.
I think it is a bit misleading to refer to this as a handful of sports.
Especially since these are all the, I would argue, premier sports within the league.
I have a friend at Rochester who does not follow their varsity athletics, but he sees Rochester as a UAA school and that may be because Rochester used to host the UAA offices or still does.
As for the UAA in general, they do have one institution that is getting a new Chancellor and three others that have executives who are 70 or older. Who knows what will happen over the next few years. I'll be shocked if they lose a member, but who knows...
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 06:46:24 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 12:41:14 AMOn the contrary, W&L would LOVE to be in the UAA, but have been thwarted ... or basically ignored best I can tell. The UAA has no interest.
Never heard of this and it sounds like an awful idea to me. W&L and the UAA schools share very little. The travel would be atrocious. I suspect the UAA travel schedule only remotely works because all the schools are in major metro areas with conveniently close major airports. None of that describes Lexington VA.
I know the SAA came to W&L both pre and post formation to gauge interest. Prior to joining the ODAC, W&L was in a conference with Centre and Sewanee and W&L certainly fits better with the SAA schools than the ODAC. However, W&L supposedly didn't even give it much consideration due to travel time and costs and this was prior to the Texas contingent being invited back.
Given that info, I have a hard time believing W&L really wants in to the UAA. The only possible upside is reputation by association. Powerful in one sense, but I just don't see W&L and the UAA schools scrapping for the same kids. My sister went to Carnegie Melon but she would have hated W&L's rural and small college atmosphere. I applied and was accepted to Emory, but I had little desire to be at a large urban school having visited CMU and applying was more a parental nod at the time.
However, I'm happy to admit that Dave is tied in to the D3 scene in a way I'm not and never will be. There is a high probability his information is much better than my conjecture.
That's kinda what I figured. I have no doubt that Dave's W&L source(s) is/are impeccable, but Washington & Lee really isn't a good fit at all for the UAA in terms of academic structure and mission. It's a highly exclusive liberal arts college, like the NESCAC schools, that has a large and well-regarded law school (and a much smaller social-sciences grad school) attached to it, making it a liberal arts university. It's not a research university, and I doubt that it will ever attempt to go in that direction, given the massive investment that it would take to transform the school into one. And, as you said, it's not in a location that is conducive to travel for other UAA schools.
The SAA would be a logical home for W&L if it wanted to deal with the extra travel, which it apparently doesn't. It's interesting how even financially well-off D3 schools that can afford the travel costs will eschew affiliation with far-flung schools that have similar profiles in favor of banding together instead with more locally-based schools that may be of a significantly different nature. Rating location more important than common profiles and missions seems to be a popular approach among D3 schools -- it's the same thing in Johns Hopkins's case, apparently, and I'm pretty sure that it's what's keeping Macalester and Carleton in the MIAC rather than returning to their old haunts in the MWC. To me, it speaks volumes about just how high a value presidents and other senior administrators place upon keeping student-athletes close enough to campus to avoid missing class time.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 11:28:09 AM
That's kinda what I figured. I have no doubt that Dave's W&L source(s) is/are impeccable, but Washington & Lee really isn't a good fit at all for the UAA in terms of academic structure and mission. It's a highly exclusive liberal arts college, like the NESCAC schools, that has a large and well-regarded law school (and a much smaller social-sciences grad school) attached to it, making it a liberal arts university. It's not a research university, and I doubt that it will ever attempt to go in that direction, given the massive investment that it would take to transform the school into one. And, as you said, it's not in a location that is conducive to travel for other UAA schools.
The SAA would be a logical home for W&L if it wanted to deal with the extra travel, which it apparently doesn't. It's interesting how even financially well-off D3 schools that can afford the travel costs will eschew affiliation with far-flung schools that have similar profiles in favor of banding together instead with more locally-based schools that may be of a significantly different nature. Rating location more important than common profiles and missions seems to be a popular approach among D3 schools -- it's the same thing in Johns Hopkins's case, apparently, and I'm pretty sure that it's what's keeping Macalester and Carleton in the MIAC rather than returning to their old haunts in the MWC. To me, it speaks volumes about just how high a value presidents and other senior administrators place upon keeping student-athletes close enough to campus to avoid missing class time.
As far as I know, W&L has no graduate school programs beyond the law school. It is possible something has changed recently or they have some random affiliation for something else that I'm unaware of, but I don't think so.
As for the travel discussion, there is no doubt in my mind that schools should band together geographically when possible. The SAA is a nightmare. Yes, it's a better fit for W&L in mission and values, but other than the benefits to me personally of seeing W&L sports teams on a far more frequent basis at BSC, Berry, Sewanee, Ogelthorpe, and even Millsaps, it's a terrible idea to give up the easy one day bus rides of the ODAC for the nightmare flights or overnight bus rides of the SAA. To put it in perspective, only Centre is within 400 miles of Lexington VA, and that is 390+. There is not a single ODAC school more than 200 miles from W&L.
DIII presidents should be smart enough to realize that the money is far better spent in building impressive athletic facilities, which help attract student athletes to campus, versus spending money on buses and planes that just make students miss sleep, class, and practice time. W&L used to have a psuedo policy, or at least the general concept, that conference winners got big overnight athletic trips in following years when possible. This seems to have mellowed over the years and now most teams get pretty impressive OOC travel trips most years to brag about to recruits. The exception is generally football, given the scheduling challenges, but even there a home and home with CMS was a big deal a few years ago.
A local conference, with a brag worthy OOC trip, seems like a far wiser monetary and time outlay in DIII than a geographically disparate conference, even if it gets you to more similar schools. But I do admire the UAA's pursuit of common mission and value schools and the fortitude to pay for the travel schedule to make it happen. The SAA schools just tend to be screwed, in some sense, by being in low DIII density areas. So the options were limited.
Quote from: smedindy on September 25, 2018, 12:20:49 AM
Grad schools and PhD programs aren't that common in D-3. The UAA is an odd bird in D-3. I think most schools are where they want to be in terms of conferences and the match to the type of schools and program - or qualifying for an auto bid.
It shows elitism that association is an pretty presitgious group of schools (the AAU), and that Tufts is similar to them somehow besmirches Tufts.
My controversial opinion - the NESCAC is no better or worse for students than any other D-3 school. I know in the past I've poked fun at the OAC from an NCAC perspective, but my work at a D-2 state school that serves the underserved population kind of changed my thought process on this. Reputation means nothing if your students don't emerge as leaders and learners. I have seen the same result at CWU as I have at Wabash - it can definitely be transformative for students.
+1!
Quote from: WUPHF on September 25, 2018, 10:59:02 AM
This is a bit of nitpick, but regarding the fact that UAA schools also compete in other leagues with Rochester being the prime example, to be clear, Rochester competes in the UAA in (correct me if I am wrong) basketball, volleyball, tennis, soccer, swimming and diving, cross country.
I looked up the affiliations of each of Rochester's sports via their schedules. (Like a lot of schools, Rochester lists track & field as a unitary sport per gender, but it's really two -- indoor and outdoor -- since D3 holds two national meets and gives out two national titles per gender.) By my tally, Rochester's affiliation is in the UAA in ten sports (men's basketball, men's cross-country, men's swimming & diving, men's tennis, women's basketball, women's cross-country, women's soccer, women's swimming & diving, women's tennis, and women's volleyball) and in the Liberty League in twelve (baseball, football, men's golf*, squash, men's indoor track & field, men's outdoor track & field, women's field hockey, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, softball, women's indoor track & field, and women's outdoor track & field). Rochester actually competes in both the UAA and the LL in men's golf, but the UAA doesn't have an automatic bid (only four UAA schools compete in that league in men's golf), so the Yellowjackets participate in the annual Liberty League spring tournament for that league's automatic bid to the NCAA tournament.
It was an interesting and enlightening exercise. I came away with a much greater appreciation of just how involved Rochester is in the Liberty League, as well as puzzlement as to why the U of R doesn't have a men's lacrosse program in lacrosse-crazed upstate New York. I also wonder why Rochester doesn't sponsor women's golf, which is not exactly a deal-breaker in terms of budget outlay and which typically brings in student-athletes whose families have the means to pay full freight for a Rochester education.
Quote from: WUPHF on September 25, 2018, 10:59:02 AMI think it is a bit misleading to refer to this as a handful of sports.
Especially since these are all the, I would argue, premier sports within the league.
You're right. It isn't just a handful of sports. But it seems to me that Rochester is pretty deeply invested in having a Liberty League identity as well. Twelve sports is nothing to shake a stick at, either -- especially when one of the twelve is football, the largest sport on campus in terms of student-athlete numbers and typically one of the two biggest sports on any campus (if not
the biggest) in terms of attendance and attention.
Quote from: WUPHF on September 25, 2018, 10:59:02 AMI have a friend at Rochester who does not follow their varsity athletics, but he sees Rochester as a UAA school and that may be because Rochester used to host the UAA offices or still does.
That's probably true, and my guess is that the U of R's administration, inasmuch as it cares to feature athletics as part of its general identity at all (as we're all aware, UAA schools don't seem to go out of their way to let the world know that they, too, have jocks), would prefer to highlight the UAA affiliation over the LL one. If you have to present an athletic identity to the world, it's much easier to do so as part of an academically prestigious peer group than as a part of some (sorry, LL fans) upstate catch-all of four-year private schools.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 11:59:00 AMAs far as I know, W&L has no graduate school programs beyond the law school. It is possible something has changed recently or they have some random affiliation for something else that I'm unaware of, but I don't think so.
I thought that the Williams School had a graduate program, but it turns out that it doesn't. My bad.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 11:59:00 AMA local conference, with a brag worthy OOC trip, seems like a far wiser monetary and time outlay in DIII than a geographically disparate conference, even if it gets you to more similar schools. But I do admire the UAA's pursuit of common mission and value schools and the fortitude to pay for the travel schedule to make it happen. The SAA schools just tend to be screwed, in some sense, by being in low DIII density areas. So the options were limited.
What I respect the most about the UAA is that the league's member schools have made herculean efforts to ensure that the travel doesn't adversely affect the student-athletes in terms of their academic performance. For instance, I know that Chicago employs proctors who travel with teams and administer tests in hotel rooms when necessary, and I'm guessing that other UAA schools have similar provisions.
If for some reason the UAA would cease to exist, I wonder if CWRU would come back to the NCAC. They were one of the founding members until they left completely for the UAA.
It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:09:13 PM
I looked up the affiliations of each of Rochester's sports via their schedules. (Like a lot of schools, Rochester lists track & field as a unitary sport per gender, but it's really two -- indoor and outdoor -- since D3 holds two national meets and gives out two national titles per gender.) By my tally, Rochester's affiliation is in the UAA in ten sports (men's basketball, men's cross-country, men's swimming & diving, men's tennis, women's basketball, women's cross-country, women's soccer, women's swimming & diving, women's tennis, and women's volleyball) and in the Liberty League in twelve (baseball, football, men's golf*, squash, men's indoor track & field, men's outdoor track & field, women's field hockey, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, softball, women's indoor track & field, and women's outdoor track & field).
Oddly, Rochester competes in the Liberty League for Men's Squash though they do not have a single Liberty League opponent on the schedule. They will play the three other teams from the league in a championship.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:09:13 PM
I also wonder why Rochester doesn't sponsor women's golf, which is not exactly a deal-breaker in terms of budget outlay and which typically brings in student-athletes whose families have the means to pay full freight for a Rochester education.
Women's Golf is a relatively new sport for the UAA.
I would not be surprised if Rochester adds Women's Golf at some point.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:51:20 PM
It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.
It's probably easier, logistically, to get to Pittsburgh for many of the NCAC members than Allegheny.
I suppose that's true. Meadville's not exactly a transportation hub. And bringing in CMU alongside CWRU would keep the NCAC's numbers even.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 02:33:17 AM
Well said, smeds. But, about that OAC thing ... does this mean that we can expect to find you tailgating at a Mount Union football game the next time you visit Ohio? ;)
Um...unless I somehow find myself in that state for work, my only connection is a dear friend who lives near Kent. And then we'd probably tailgate wherever Wabash is playing.
And I'd rather support the downtrodden of the NCAC - I knew some folks that used to work at Muskingum. They need all the support they can get!
--- Changing what I wrote for those who read my first version ---
Per W&L ... I do not think they are actively trying to get into the UAA. I believe it has been a thought and a dream, but they are also realistic. I don't think they feel they necessarily fit in the ODAC and it has been more of a necessity than anything else. I feel they respect the other schools in the ODAC and have done right by the conference, but they have loftier goals or loftier thoughts on their place in DIII.
I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.
I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.
Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.
Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:51:20 PM
It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.
That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.
Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.
So if we're fantasy booking the dissolution of the UAA, we'd see UR to the LL fully, CWRU and CMU to PAC or NCAC, and then what, WUSTL and Chicago to CCIW, Emory to SAA, Brandeis NEWMAC or NESCAC, and NYU maybe Landmark or LL?
Just some idle conjecture on a dull rainy Tuesday afternoon.
Per Rochester and the UAA and Liberty League ... take some of the info at face value.
I do NOT suggest going to the conference websites and seeing where Rochester pops up on their "standings" and such. There is a nice new "trick" with conferences that is going on. I'll use the MAC as a great example. They now have ice hockey as a sponsored sport. However, all of the MAC schools are in another ice hockey conference. The MAC hands out awards and such, but they have no AQ. However if you go on the MAC website, it will make you think it is the home for the ice hockey teams and such. It is just a backup when and if there are enough teams for an AQ.
UAA has the same in football. They don't play a conference schedule per se and they don't have an AQ. They have four teams, but that doesn't keep the UAA from showing "standings" and handing out awards.
The best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.
My bigger point about the UAA is when will costs become an overriding factor. I was given the example of a school (forget who) who's softball team traveled to Brandeis for a weekend series. The trip was four or five days ... they didn't play a single game. They couldn't be made up.
At some point, those costs and time away from class, especially in sports like baseball and softball, are going to become problematic in the current environment. Why would schools pay all that money and missed class time to risk not playing any games ... when they could have stayed closer to home and made it work.
I love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW. Brandeis could easily join the NESCAC or NEWMAC. Emory could join the SAA (maybe entice W&L to join them). Case Western could join the NCAC or maybe the OAC. Carnegie Mellon could join the NCAC or OAC. Rochester could go full time into the Liberty League. NYU ... not sure where they would go.
Do I think the UAA will disappear in the short term? No. Do I think one or two schools could pull up stakes and change the complexion? Yes.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
--- Changing what I wrote for those who read my first version ---
Per W&L ... I do not think they are actively trying to get into the UAA. I believe it has been a thought and a dream, but they are also realistic. I don't think they feel they necessarily fit in the ODAC and it has been more of a necessity than anything else. I feel they respect the other schools in the ODAC and have done right by the conference, but they have loftier goals or loftier thoughts on their place in DIII.
I wouldn't think anyone who dreams W&L should be in the UAA really understands what the UAA is. W&L does not share their mission and values. Frankly they'd fit better in the NESCAC if all someone wants is to boost the school reputation, and their odds on joining the NESCAC versus joining the UAA both hover around 0.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.
.
The Centennial is the only reasonable conference they could be part of for wrestling. The only other option is the Southeast Wrestling Conference, which is one of those made up things that is more a conference in name and attempt to get bids (6 members... so close) than something useful.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.
See above. The travel would suck and what is it that you actually gain? Sure, slightly better reputation of the colleges, but we aren't talking about vaulting into the UAA or NESCAC area. So shell out big bucks, big time, create big problems, for very little? It just doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.
I don't think they really would love to sit there when they look at the expense. A few people with overblown egos might think it would help, but I can't imagine the school actually doing it.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.
W&L has played SVa in most sports over the years at different times. It's pretty much an annual soccer match for at least the men, having played 15 times. The football teams played in 2008. Men's basketball has played 3 times. Women's basketball has played 8 times. Women's soccer has played 3 times. Men's baseball has played 33 times. It just depends. I think where W&L feels scheduling SVa is a useful opponent, either as a tune up (men's soccer) or as a general opponent (baseball), then they do. When they think it's a silly mismatch (lacrosse, tennis), they generally don't.
But I have no idea why the ODAC took on both Ferrum and SVa unless they are concerned about someone leaving in football. The obvious school to leave would be W&L, but I just don't see how the SAA would be better and the UAA is a pipe dream, and there isn't really another candidate.
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on September 25, 2018, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:51:20 PM
It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.
That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.
Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.
That's only one sport. The NCAC sponsors 23 sports, and CMU plays eighteen of them. Unless there's a rule written in the league constitution that each school has to sponsor baseball, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for getting CMU into the league. And I can't imagine any NCAC member institution president saying no to Carnegie Mellon strictly on the basis that it would give the league uneven numbers for a specific sport out of that 23.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.
.
The Centennial is the only reasonable conference they could be part of for wrestling. The only other option is the Southeast Wrestling Conference, which is one of those made up things that is more a conference in name and attempt to get bids (6 members... so close) than something useful.
I understand that. I was just pointing out there are some who feel W&L would be interested in joining the Centennial full time. The schools in the Centennial are very much alike to W&L.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
I think W&L is a good fit in the SAA, but for whatever reason that hasn't come together either.
See above. The travel would suck and what is it that you actually gain? Sure, slightly better reputation of the colleges, but we aren't talking about vaulting into the UAA or NESCAC area. So shell out big bucks, big time, create big problems, for very little? It just doesn't make sense.
There are a lot of things that get decided in DIII that don't make sense. Sometimes I have to remove that thinking to see the landscape schools are seeing. They would possibly/arguably have easier access to AQs.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
Ultimately, if W&L wanted to leave the ODAC they would ... and the only reason they haven't is they don't have a place to go. I feel they would love to be in the UAA, but also understand they don't exactly fit the mold. However, that is a place they would love to sit.
I don't think they really would love to sit there when they look at the expense. A few people with overblown egos might think it would help, but I can't imagine the school actually doing it.
Bingo. Those egos like to talk as well, thus why W&L tends to come up in conversations I'm having with people about unrelated conference moves.
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2018, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
Had Southern Virginia been admitted to the ODAC, I do wonder if W&L would have left by now.
W&L has played SVa in most sports over the years at different times. It's pretty much an annual soccer match for at least the men, having played 15 times. The football teams played in 2008. Men's basketball has played 3 times. Women's basketball has played 8 times. Women's soccer has played 3 times. Men's baseball has played 33 times. It just depends. I think where W&L feels scheduling SVa is a useful opponent, either as a tune up (men's soccer) or as a general opponent (baseball), then they do. When they think it's a silly mismatch (lacrosse, tennis), they generally don't.
But I have no idea why the ODAC took on both Ferrum and SVa unless they are concerned about someone leaving in football. The obvious school to leave would be W&L, but I just don't see how the SAA would be better and the UAA is a pipe dream, and there isn't really another candidate.
As for SVU, I was told by several in the ODAC they wondered (maybe feared) that W&L would leave the conference if SVU were to be admitted. I don't know why that concern. I just know it to be there.
The ODAC didn't take on both schools. They looked at both and chose Ferrum.
And I think the ODAC is trying to secure it's place in what has become a very challenging and ever changing conference landscape. Remember, they sit next door (or somewhat in) a conference landscape that has been shaken up. You just don't know what pieces could move next.
Well, maybe I get at least 2 cents of credit for reviving an old thread that now is morphing into D3 fantasy conference realignments.
In terms of CMU and NCAC, CMU and Kenyon have had a home and away series in men's soccer going for several years now....exactly 3 hours from Pittsburgh to downtown Gambier. Chicago, CWRU and Rochester also pretty doable for most NCAC schools.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:05:38 PM
Well, maybe I get at least 2 cents of credit for reviving an old thread that now is morphing into D3 fantasy conference realignments.
In terms of CMU and NCAC, CMU and Kenyon have had a home and away series in men's soccer going for several years now....exactly 3 hours from Pittsburgh to downtown Gambier. Chicago, CWRU and Rochester also pretty doable for most NCAC schools.
No reason for Rochester to leave the Liberty League which they basically have controlled (just look at the football challenges). And Chicago? I highly doubt the NCAC would admit Chicago, nor would Chicago want to go to the NCAC unless a lot of conferences didn't want them - which I think would be odd.
I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre. If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on September 25, 2018, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 12:51:20 PM
It would be their logical place to land. The same probably goes for Carnegie Mellon as well, although the NCAC might consider Pittsburgh to be a little too far outside the league's geographical footprint.
That reminds me of a story. I was talking to a Dad at one of the OWU games. He was so excited he had heard what he thought was a juicy bit of gossip and he could not wait to share it. He had Heard CMU was joining the NCAC, and Ingles was going to come back to coaching as OWU's baseball coach. You see Ingles in all his years coaching at OWU had never beat CMU, and wanted another opportunity. He could not figure out why I was laughing so hard. I told him to go look up CMU's baseball program and get back to me. He did not talk to me the rest of the season.
Numbers would be even for Football, however not Baseball.
That's only one sport. The NCAC sponsors 23 sports, and CMU plays eighteen of them. Unless there's a rule written in the league constitution that each school has to sponsor baseball, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for getting CMU into the league. And I can't imagine any NCAC member institution president saying no to Carnegie Mellon strictly on the basis that it would give the league uneven numbers for a specific sport out of that 23.
I completely agree. I am sure the NCAC would never say, well they do not have Baseball, so we cannot. They would make it work. It is probably easier to do it in baseball then some of the other sports.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre. If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?
Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre. If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?
Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?
My bad....thought we were sort of doing fantasy conferences.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 03:05:05 PM
There are a lot of things that get decided in DIII that don't make sense. Sometimes I have to remove that thinking to see the landscape schools are seeing. They would possibly/arguably have easier access to AQs.
Given the way W&L has dominated the ODAC I just don't see this as the reason. The only sports W&L is not consistently in the mix for an ODAC title are the two basketballs and baseball as well as softball, the only ODAC sport W&L does not sponsor. W&L has won the ODAC Commissioner's Cup Overall 22 times. The only other school to win it is Lynchburg, twice. The men have won it 18 times, the closest competitor is Lynchburg with 5. The women have won it 18 times. The only other school to win it is Roanoke with 8. The women have won it the last 15 straight years, the men 5 of the last 6 years. And W&L has taken the overall 16 straight years.
Joining the SAA would make it more difficult to win the AQ. That might be attractive, but it certainly can't be easier.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
As for SVU, I was told by several in the ODAC they wondered (maybe feared) that W&L would leave the conference if SVU were to be admitted. I don't know why that concern. I just know it to be there.
The ODAC didn't take on both schools. They looked at both and chose Ferrum.
And I think the ODAC is trying to secure it's place in what has become a very challenging and ever changing conference landscape. Remember, they sit next door (or somewhat in) a conference landscape that has been shaken up. You just don't know what pieces could move next.
I get this. But the ODAC is already a massive conference. Some sports are so overstuffed we can't even have a home and home in traditional home and home sports. In other sports we don't even have a full round robin anymore. It's a little ridiculous outside of football. Adding Ferrum as a full time member made it worse. And the ODAC did accept SVa for football. We will see what is the next domino to fall.
Lordy - Emory in the SAA would destroy the competitive balance of that conference. On top of their athletic prowess, their endowment is probably a multiple of all the current schools combined.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PM
Per Rochester and the UAA and Liberty League ... take some of the info at face value.
I do NOT suggest going to the conference websites and seeing where Rochester pops up on their "standings" and such. There is a nice new "trick" with conferences that is going on. I'll use the MAC as a great example. They now have ice hockey as a sponsored sport. However, all of the MAC schools are in another ice hockey conference. The MAC hands out awards and such, but they have no AQ. However if you go on the MAC website, it will make you think it is the home for the ice hockey teams and such. It is just a backup when and if there are enough teams for an AQ.
UAA has the same in football. They don't play a conference schedule per se and they don't have an AQ. They have four teams, but that doesn't keep the UAA from showing "standings" and handing out awards.
That's exactly why I went to Rochester's website and looked at the schedules of the Yellowjackets on a sport-by-sport basis. Men's golf listed both UAA and LL tourneys on the 2018-19 sked, which is why I went to the UAA site and found that there's only four schools participating in UAA men's golf.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMThe best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.
I don't think that you can figuratively condense eleven sports down to six upon the premise that five of the six are parallel sports differentiated by gender for both Rochester and the UAA. Those sports may be parallel but they're distinct, with their own coaching staffs, rosters, budgets, schedules, support staff, etc. At most you can use the parallel aspect to save some dollars on transportation on road trips (i.e., men's and women's basketball teams traveling together), but I don't see it as realistic to extrapolate that into saying that the men's basketball program and the women's basketball program are really just one big super-program.
Eleven sports is a dramatically larger presence, both from a league standpoint and an individual school standpoint, than six.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMMy bigger point about the UAA is when will costs become an overriding factor. I was given the example of a school (forget who) who's softball team traveled to Brandeis for a weekend series. The trip was four or five days ... they didn't play a single game. They couldn't be made up.
At some point, those costs and time away from class, especially in sports like baseball and softball, are going to become problematic in the current environment. Why would schools pay all that money and missed class time to risk not playing any games ... when they could have stayed closer to home and made it work.
Even though a lot of endowment money is specifically designated by their donors for certain things, I have a hard time believing that schools as incredibly wealthy as the UAA's view cancellations as anything other than sunk costs within the usual travel budget that's been required by UAA membership for thirty years now. Maybe I'm wrong about that; maybe the powers-that-be in UAA boardrooms are so obdurately opposed to viewing athletics as anything other than a (very) minor auxiliary of the larger university -- somewhere between an appendix and a toenail -- that they're going to insist upon nickel-and-diming it into complete irrelevance.
The missed class time is another matter. No matter how hard and how well UAA schools get around it, there's still a few formidable chunks of time spent away from campus for each team in each UAA sport.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMI love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW.
The CCIW seems likely from a travel and competition standpoint -- it would be interesting to see if the CCIW would take in a third school along with Wash U and Chicago to make it an even dozen and then go to divisions, thereby cutting down further upon travel time -- but from an academic standpoint the two UAA refugees might decide to look at the MWC instead. Chicago was a MWC member from 1976-87, and it's currently an associate member in that league for football.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMBrandeis could easily join the NESCAC or NEWMAC. Emory could join the SAA (maybe entice W&L to join them). Case Western could join the NCAC or maybe the OAC. Carnegie Mellon could join the NCAC or OAC.
It'd be a cold day in hell before either CWRU or CMU chose the OAC over the NCAC. And although I can't prove it, I suspect that if the two former UAA members couldn't get into the NCAC for whatever reason, they'd probably both opt for the smaller, less athletically cutthroat PAC than for the OAC.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMRochester could go full time into the Liberty League. NYU ... not sure where they would go.
The NEWMAC, maybe? It's got kind of a catch-all vibe, and there's at least one other highly exclusive school (MIT) already in it.
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on September 25, 2018, 03:12:33 PM
I completely agree. I am sure the NCAC would never say, well they do not have Baseball, so we cannot. They would make it work. It is probably easier to do it in baseball then some of the other sports.
Seems a shame that a school located in a great baseball town like Pittsburgh doesn't offer the sport.
Agreed that Carnegie Mellon has an NCAC profile. Back in the day, CMU was a member of the PAC.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMThe best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.
I don't think that you can figuratively condense eleven sports down to six upon the premise that five of the six are parallel sports differentiated by gender for both Rochester and the UAA. Those sports may be parallel but they're distinct, with their own coaching staffs, rosters, budgets, schedules, support staff, etc. At most you can use the parallel aspect to save some dollars on transportation on road trips (i.e., men's and women's basketball teams traveling together), but I don't see it as realistic to extrapolate that into saying that the men's basketball program and the women's basketball program are really just one big super-program.
Eleven sports is a dramatically larger presence, both from a league standpoint and an individual school standpoint, than six.
I condensed it for one simple reason - if a school decides to pull a sport out of a conference, they are going to do it for both. So there are six sports essentially that Rochester has in the mix. If they pulled soccer out to cut down on travel and head to the Liberty - that is essentially one decision that does affects two sports.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMMy bigger point about the UAA is when will costs become an overriding factor. I was given the example of a school (forget who) who's softball team traveled to Brandeis for a weekend series. The trip was four or five days ... they didn't play a single game. They couldn't be made up.
At some point, those costs and time away from class, especially in sports like baseball and softball, are going to become problematic in the current environment. Why would schools pay all that money and missed class time to risk not playing any games ... when they could have stayed closer to home and made it work.
Even though a lot of endowment money is specifically designated by their donors for certain things, I have a hard time believing that schools as incredibly wealthy as the UAA's view cancellations as anything other than sunk costs within the usual travel budget that's been required by UAA membership for thirty years now. Maybe I'm wrong about that; maybe the powers-that-be in UAA boardrooms are so obdurately opposed to viewing athletics as anything other than a (very) minor auxiliary of the larger university -- somewhere between an appendix and a toenail -- that they're going to insist upon nickel-and-diming it into complete irrelevance.
The missed class time is another matter. No matter how hard and how well UAA schools get around it, there's still a few formidable chunks of time spent away from campus for each team in each UAA sport.
All I can tell you is what I was told ... it didn't sit well that a team spent that much time on the road, didn't play any games, basically wasted money, while missing a ton of class time. I think it got people thinking. That's all.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMI love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW.
The CCIW seems likely from a travel and competition standpoint -- it would be interesting to see if the CCIW would take in a third school along with Wash U and Chicago to make it an even dozen and then go to divisions, thereby cutting down further upon travel time -- but from an academic standpoint the two UAA refugees might decide to look at the MWC instead. Chicago was a MWC member from 1976-87, and it's currently an associate member in that league for football.
MWC is certainly a good idea as well. I was just spitballing. I wasn't trying to be dead accurate with it. There are a lot of factors in play.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMBrandeis could easily join the NESCAC or NEWMAC. Emory could join the SAA (maybe entice W&L to join them). Case Western could join the NCAC or maybe the OAC. Carnegie Mellon could join the NCAC or OAC.
It'd be a cold day in hell before either CWRU or CMU chose the OAC over the NCAC. And although I can't prove it, I suspect that if the two former UAA members couldn't get into the NCAC for whatever reason, they'd probably both opt for the smaller, less athletically cutthroat PAC than for the OAC.
Again spitballing ... again, I said "maybe" OAC. I felt it was more of an NCAC match anyway.
I don't think the PAC is an option, but I could be wrong. One of the reasons the PAC punted TMC was they were tired of getting their rear ends handed to them. Granted, it hurts more when the trip to and from is far longer and there are questions as to how TMC is conducting themselves. But again... not sure the PAC is interested in being non-competitive. I know one could argue CMU and CWRU aren't as big a threat as TMC ... but just a thought I think would be on the minds of PAC members.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMRochester could go full time into the Liberty League. NYU ... not sure where they would go.
The NEWMAC, maybe? It's got kind of a catch-all vibe, and there's at least one other highly exclusive school (MIT) already in it.
Yeah ... not sure. NEWMAC can easily get to NYC without too much trouble (already going to Coast Guard and the like. The Landmark could kind of get into NYC and maybe interested since they have Drew in that neck of the woods. Just not sure, honestly. Also wonder if the NEWMAC starts to get too big, on the women's side especially. Not sure overall.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre. If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?
Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?
My bad....thought we were sort of doing fantasy conferences.
No one has been creating new conferences... just discussing the what-ifs of members leaving for conferences that currently exist.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 04:16:35 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
I didn't realize W&L is so far away from Centre. If Centennial was in play,why not W&L, Centre, Kenyon, Oberlin, DePauw, Denison, Wabash, Wooster, OWU....?
Do not follow your logic what so ever. Create a new conference?
My bad....thought we were sort of doing fantasy conferences.
No one has been creating new conferences... just discussing the what-ifs of members leaving for conferences that currently exist.
Again, my apologies. Thought I recalled someone mentioning a fantasy dissolution of the UAA and comments from our W&L friend about how W&L would fit better with NESCAC (other than the obvious geography) or you opining on Centennial (geography still not great) than ODAC and other references to fantasy-like realignments.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 04:15:59 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMThe best way to see how many sports a school is in a particular conference is to look at the schedules and what they mark as official conference games. Per Sager's research, I do believe you found the sports they are members in the UAA - that number was higher than the one I thought I put together. However, I would argue you could condense that technically to six (you forgot men's soccer, BTW) to being basketball, cross-country, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, and volleyball.
I don't think that you can figuratively condense eleven sports down to six upon the premise that five of the six are parallel sports differentiated by gender for both Rochester and the UAA. Those sports may be parallel but they're distinct, with their own coaching staffs, rosters, budgets, schedules, support staff, etc. At most you can use the parallel aspect to save some dollars on transportation on road trips (i.e., men's and women's basketball teams traveling together), but I don't see it as realistic to extrapolate that into saying that the men's basketball program and the women's basketball program are really just one big super-program.
Eleven sports is a dramatically larger presence, both from a league standpoint and an individual school standpoint, than six.
I condensed it for one simple reason - if a school decides to pull a sport out of a conference, they are going to do it for both. So there are six sports essentially that Rochester has in the mix. If they pulled soccer out to cut down on travel and head to the Liberty - that is essentially one decision that does affects two sports.
OK, when you put it that way it makes more sense.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 04:15:59 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PMI love the UAA and certainly wouldn't want to see it disappear, but the conversations I have had do make the landscape understandable. WashU and Chicago can easily find homes - most likely in the CCIW.
The CCIW seems likely from a travel and competition standpoint -- it would be interesting to see if the CCIW would take in a third school along with Wash U and Chicago to make it an even dozen and then go to divisions, thereby cutting down further upon travel time -- but from an academic standpoint the two UAA refugees might decide to look at the MWC instead. Chicago was a MWC member from 1976-87, and it's currently an associate member in that league for football.
MWC is certainly a good idea as well. I was just spitballing. I wasn't trying to be dead accurate with it. There are a lot of factors in play.
It got me thinking again about who might be that third school, given that the topic of evening out the league membership again does come up from time to time in CCIW Chat. I've always said that Lake Forest (which was a CCIW member back in the '40s, '50s and early '60s) would be the ideal tenth member, given its Chicagoland location, relative academic prestige, financial health, current D3 membership, and full menu of sports (including the three required by league bylaws for CCIW membership: football, men's basketball, and baseball). Other CCIW Chat posters are baffled by my thinking on that, because the Foresters aren't the dominant sports power in the MWC (that would be St. Norbert), which means that, rather than add to the CCIW's overall competitive prowess the Foresters would detract from it. But that's not how D3 presidents think. They think in terms of which schools add luster by association to theirs in terms of academics, as well as proximity and financial health, rather than how good they are at this sport or that.
Lake Forest doesn't appear to be interested, probably because the CCIW contains none of LFC's peer institutions in the Associated Colleges of the Midwest, whereas the MWC is full of ACM members. But LFC's braintrust might think twice about that if a couple of ex-UAA academic heavyweights were looking to join the CCIW as full members. They could trade the luster of ACM peers for the luster of associating with a couple of AAU institutions, plus they'd be able to cut down a bit on travel costs.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 05:08:56 PM
It got me thinking again about who might be that third school, given that the topic of evening out the league membership again does come up from time to time in CCIW Chat. I've always said that Lake Forest (which was a CCIW member back in the '40s, '50s and early '60s) would be the ideal tenth member, given its Chicagoland location, relative academic prestige, financial health, current D3 membership, and full menu of sports (including the three required by league bylaws for CCIW membership: football, men's basketball, and baseball). Other CCIW Chat posters are baffled by my thinking on that, because the Foresters aren't the dominant sports power in the MWC (that would be St. Norbert), which means that, rather than add to the CCIW's overall competitive prowess the Foresters would detract from it. But that's not how D3 presidents think. They think in terms of which schools add luster by association to theirs in terms of academics, as well as proximity and financial health, rather than how good they are at this sport or that.
Lake Forest doesn't appear to be interested, probably because the CCIW contains none of LFC's peer institutions in the Associated Colleges of the Midwest, whereas the MWC is full of ACM members. But LFC's braintrust might think twice about that if a couple of ex-UAA academic heavyweights were looking to join the CCIW as full members. They could trade the luster of ACM peers for the luster of associating with a couple of AAU institutions, plus they'd be able to cut down a bit on travel costs.
When Wabash joined the NCAC - the league added Hiram as well. Wabash and Hiram aren't really parallel in terms of the importance of athletics on campus. Hiram was a good fit academically - while not to the level of a Denison or Kenyon or Oberlin, certainly good enough that everyone was comfortable in fit.
Those college associations are also important as well. The NCAC has (I believe) a PBK chapter criteria for its members, and eight members are also part of the GLCA (only Wittenberg and Hiram are not). Earlham is also a GLCA member, and they pulled themselves out of the NCAC (opening a spot for DePauw, hooray?).
If somehow the MIAA were to blow up (unlikely), then the GLCA members up there (Albion, Hope, and Kalamazoo) could probably find refuge in the NCAC.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:52:09 PM
Per Rochester and the UAA and Liberty League ... take some of the info at face value.
I do NOT suggest going to the conference websites and seeing where Rochester pops up on their "standings" and such. There is a nice new "trick" with conferences that is going on. I'll use the MAC as a great example. [...]
Just in case this was meant for me, I initially went with the teams that I knew to be competing in the UAA rather than looking at the UAA website. It is true that things get complicated.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 05:08:56 PM
They could trade the luster of ACM peers for the luster of associating with a couple of AAU institutions, plus they'd be able to cut down a bit on travel costs.
When did the University of Chicago leave the Associated Colleges of the Midwest?
2008.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 03:52:22 PM
The missed class time is another matter. No matter how hard and how well UAA schools get around it, there's still a few formidable chunks of time spent away from campus for each team in each UAA sport.
The time away varies from sport to sport and school to school, but in terms of conferences, it would be interesting if we have students run both a UAA schedule and a CCIW schedule and survey the students.
I was bored, so I thought I would look at the difference for two teams and their Spring 2019 semesters.
If you are Washington University for example, you have one trip to Chicago on a Friday night and return on Saturday night. Then a weekend at home. These games are before the semester begins.
Then, Thursday evening or Friday-Sunday. Then a weekend at home.
Then, another Thursday evening or Friday-Sunday. Then another Thursday evening or Friday-Sunday. Then a weekend at home. Then Chicago at home.
If you are Illinois Wesleyan for example, you have Wednesday home, Wednesday home and Saturday home before the semester begins. Then you have
Wednesday away, Saturday home,
Wednesday away, (Saturday bye), Wednesday home,
Saturday away, Wednesday away, Saturday home, Wednesday home,
Saturday away, CCIW tourney TBD, but let's Saturday away.It is true that the Washington University student-athlete is going to miss three Thursday-Friday class days as they depart for three of those weekends. The Washington University student will be away three times during the semester while the IWU student will be away on seven occasions.
I do think there is an argument to be made that the lack of a midweek interruption does mitigate
a bit of those missed days.
Obviously I am really bored today...
The thing is, vis-a-vis the midweek interruption, the downstate schools never play the Wisconsin schools on a Wednesday. So IWU is never going to have anything longer than a three-hour road trip on a Wednesday. Basketball players never enroll in Wednesday afternoon classes -- that's been a given for as long as the league's been on a Wednesday/Saturday schedule, which has been for decades now -- so they don't miss classes on the front end. On the back end, given the league's universal 7 pm Wednesday night tipoff time and the usual game duration of an hour and forty-five minutes, you're talking about the Titans getting home at about 1:45 am on their longest Wednesday night CCIW road trip (North Park). And since that takes place the day after New Year's Day, it's irrelevant as far as interfering with Thursday morning classes are concerned, because school won't be in session.
The only real inconvenience that the Titans would face is on three Wednesday nights this winter when they'll have to play at Elmhurst, Wheaton, and North Central. They'll likely get back to campus about 1 am those nights, so they'll probably only get six hours of sleep if they have 8 am classes. All things considered, that's not bad at all for a school that has only one conference foe that's less than three hours distant.
Tack on an extra hour of travel time for the Millikin crew when they have to take to the road on a Wednesday, but they only have to make those long trips twice (North Park and Wheaton), as opposed to IWU's three.
Just something to consider with travel ... it is the outdoor sports that are most vulnerable, thus my example of softball at Brandeis. Basketball can be affected by weather, but not nearly as severely.
Per this ... I'm resisting the urge of getting fired up and talking about the Landmark Conferences scheduling issues over the years. But I digress... LOL
Per Wikipedia....
The Little Ivies (singularly Little Ivy) are a group of small, highly academically competitive private liberal arts colleges in the Northeastern United States.[nb 1]
The term Little Ivy derives from these schools' small student bodies, standards of academic excellence, associated historic social prestige, and highly selective admissions comparable to the Ivy League. According to Bloomberg, the Little Ivies are also known for their large financial endowments, both absolutely and relative to their size.[11] The term is generally associated with the colleges of the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) and select schools from the Liberty League, Patriot League and the Centennial Conference.
Among the Little Ivies are the Little Three, a term used by Amherst College, Wesleyan University and Williams College to describe themselves akin to the Big Three of the Northeast's Ivy League: Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.[12] The three colleges joined Bowdoin College to found the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) in 1971 along with Bates College, Colby College, Hamilton College, Middlebury College, Tufts University, Trinity College and Union College.[13] Union withdrew in 1977 and was replaced by Connecticut College in 1982.[14]
That said, see https://books.google.com/books?id=C2fhGjLVFOEC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=nescac+more+like+ivies+than+uaa&source=bl&ots=uRmpKCb7Kc&sig=P71Pdw1ViGjseXtjsCm6izGGi9c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipmPehotfdAhXPmOAKHXsLC90Q6AEwDXoECAAQAQ
Basically the study shows that the UAA schools have far less slippage in GPAs and difficulty of majors/curriculums for athletes versus the student bodies at large as compared to the Ivies and NESCACs where there is considerable slippage.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/11/13/why-do-top-schools-still-take-legacy-applicants/in-college-admissions-athletes-are-the-problem
Interesting article. Headline point is that recruited athletes have a far greater push than tuba players or drama students....well above legacies and very close to minority applicants.
NESCACs have been criticized (often fairly IMHO) because relative to their overall size they have a high percentage of recruited athletes, and embrace having an academic mission that lessons the significance of athletics while simultaneously making athletics a big deal and a a big deal in comparison to comparable LACs and UAAs.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 06:49:32 PM
The thing is, vis-a-vis the midweek interruption, the downstate schools never play the Wisconsin schools on a Wednesday. So IWU is never going to have anything longer than a three-hour road trip on a Wednesday.
To be clear, I only said the UAA schools are missing days of classes. I also said that lack of a midweek interruption moderated the overall disruption of travel to other schools by a bit. Otherwise, the CCIW is geographically well situated.
By the by, if you ever read an interview or blog from a UAA player, they almost universally cite the travel weekends as one of their favorite parts about playing in the league along with traveling alongside and cheering for their male or female counterparts.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 07:11:14 PM
Per Wikipedia....
The Little Ivies (singularly Little Ivy) are a group of small, highly academically competitive private liberal arts colleges in the Northeastern United States.[nb 1]
The term Little Ivy derives from these schools' small student bodies, standards of academic excellence, associated historic social prestige, and highly selective admissions comparable to the Ivy League. According to Bloomberg, the Little Ivies are also known for their large financial endowments, both absolutely and relative to their size.[11] The term is generally associated with the colleges of the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) and select schools from the Liberty League, Patriot League and the Centennial Conference.
Among the Little Ivies are the Little Three, a term used by Amherst College, Wesleyan University and Williams College to describe themselves akin to the Big Three of the Northeast's Ivy League: Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.[12] The three colleges joined Bowdoin College to found the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) in 1971 along with Bates College, Colby College, Hamilton College, Middlebury College, Tufts University, Trinity College and Union College.[13] Union withdrew in 1977 and was replaced by Connecticut College in 1982.[14]
Dude, I've already said that I've spoken my piece. How long are you going to keep at this?
Quote from: WUPHF on September 25, 2018, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 06:49:32 PM
The thing is, vis-a-vis the midweek interruption, the downstate schools never play the Wisconsin schools on a Wednesday. So IWU is never going to have anything longer than a three-hour road trip on a Wednesday.
To be clear, I only said the UAA schools are missing days of classes. I also said that lack of a midweek interruption moderated the overall disruption of travel to other schools by a bit. Otherwise, the CCIW is geographically well situated.
By the by, if you ever read an interview or blog from a UAA player, they almost universally cite the travel weekends as one of their favorite parts about playing in the league along with traveling alongside and cheering for their male or female counterparts.
Yeah, I can remember reading Sean Wallis's (I think) blog on d3hoops.com where he said something to that effect. It makes sense to me. Seeing different major cities as a part of sports season strikes me as a big attraction, in the same vein as a snowbird trip for a winter sport. (Snowbird trips are really more of a necessity than a selling point for outdoor spring sports such as baseball and softball for northern-based schools.)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 25, 2018, 10:55:29 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 25, 2018, 07:11:14 PM
Per Wikipedia....
The Little Ivies (singularly Little Ivy) are a group of small, highly academically competitive private liberal arts colleges in the Northeastern United States.[nb 1]
The term Little Ivy derives from these schools' small student bodies, standards of academic excellence, associated historic social prestige, and highly selective admissions comparable to the Ivy League. According to Bloomberg, the Little Ivies are also known for their large financial endowments, both absolutely and relative to their size.[11] The term is generally associated with the colleges of the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) and select schools from the Liberty League, Patriot League and the Centennial Conference.
Among the Little Ivies are the Little Three, a term used by Amherst College, Wesleyan University and Williams College to describe themselves akin to the Big Three of the Northeast's Ivy League: Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.[12] The three colleges joined Bowdoin College to found the New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC) in 1971 along with Bates College, Colby College, Hamilton College, Middlebury College, Tufts University, Trinity College and Union College.[13] Union withdrew in 1977 and was replaced by Connecticut College in 1982.[14]
Dude, I've already said that I've spoken my piece. How long are you going to keep at this?
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.tvtropes.org%2Fpmwiki%2Fpub%2Fimages%2Fdeadhorse.jpg&hash=169113fe16442734f6923cde689b4722c1e6acf9)
I've gotten kinda nostalgic for the gif version, which used to be a staple of the MIAA men's basketball board:
(https://media.tenor.com/images/915f88187a46940251d59f3b8cef9975/tenor.gif)
One MIAA poster even used it as his icon, with the horse covered in painted-in blood.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
--- Changing what I wrote for those who read my first version ---
I think if they could join the Centennial (they are an associate member in wrestling) they would be interested, but I don't feel the Centennial has any interest in an outlier travel wise.
This came up years ago and the Centennial passed for the travel reason you mention. While there has been plenty of presidential and administrative turnover since then, I doubt the outcome would be any different now. The travel is a concern of all the Centennial schools, but specifically, I suspect there is a voting block of schools that would never vote in favor of it on those grounds no matter what.
d-mac
Your suggestion that there is a school in a major metropolitan area "angling" to get into the UAA has me scratching my head. Are they trying to join AAU as well? That seems to be a requirement for UAA. At one point there were suggestions that Tulane might drop to D3, but their new football stadium puts the kibosh on that. UT-Dallas is the only current d3 school that comes to mind, but would UAA accept a state school? RPI?
I'm not sure why UAA would want to expand. Only goal I can see is AQ for baseball, but at-large has worked fairly well for the only serious contenders; CWRU, Emory, and WashU. Or as you suggest a presence in another major metropolitan area.
If you don't mind PM me who's angling and I'll keep it under my hat.
You mentioned that the number of UAA football schools was four, but the website current lists only the three who are playing each other: CMU, CWRU, and Rochester.
Greg, with all due respect, and at the risk of the same poster describing my posts as vitriolic (when seriously they mostly do not reach your tone and are usually less authoritative/dismissive than yours)......is exasperation (and as you have said multiple times banging your head against a brick wall) exclusive to your utilization?
I did not address you or quote you in that post. Others may find the original thread topic (not started by me), as well as the topic I picked up on from our W&L friend, and perhaps related topics, of interest. Should I simply follow your cue on when you have ended a discussion with your final point that you believe trumps all other points? Are you the arbiter of when you have settled a matter and when "enough is enough"? You clearly are here a lot and really enjoy posting and responding and countering (nothing special about me with you in that regard other than me directly addressing it). Just ignore my posts.
FYI, I looked back at the sequence and I very specifically said NESCAC and Ivies with respect to the cultural and Northeast/New England point of view. You didn't seem to contest that. I agreed with you about grad schools, as, believe it or not, I did and do know quite a bit about the relative size, undergrad vs grad, and programmatic differences between all of the schools being referenced. We actually agreed, and at least indirectly conceded that we did. You then insisted on what was of primary import versus secondary import. In what context? That matters, and given that I was referring to the cultural, New England, and to some extent athletic aspects, that was the context that I underscored. So in that context it WAS primary. The tedious stuff afterwards about schools with grad schools and those without and who is more likely to major in what based on undergrad choice only obfuscated the original points made by the W&L guy as well as myself.
Now, getting back to the original thread topic about facilities and in particular the NESCAC, where are these schools with respect to each other? I recall being blown away by Middlebury's facilities (especially the hockey arena) 10-12 years ago, but have other schools caught up and surpassed that? Is Bates planning any kind of counter to the massive investments that Colby has been making over the last 5-10 years? How do the NESCACs rank top to bottom in terms of athletic facilities?
I was wondering also....and also in the same state but different school. Trinity (TX) [San Antonio]? Or perhaps a school in Portland or Seattle areas?
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BriefKnobbyGonolek-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 26, 2018, 10:22:59 AM
I was wondering also....and also in the same state but different school. Trinity (TX) [San Antonio]? Or perhaps a school in Portland or Seattle areas?
Trinity(TX) doesn't have the research chops, financial resources, and other prerequisites to even think about UAA membership - not to mention the extreme travel that would be required.
Quote from: ADL70 on September 26, 2018, 10:04:56 AM
d-mac
Your suggestion that there is a school in a major metropolitan area "angling" to get into the UAA has me scratching my head. Are they trying to join AAU as well? That seems to be a requirement for UAA. At one point there were suggestions that Tulane might drop to D3, but their new football stadium puts the kibosh on that. UT-Dallas is the only current d3 school that comes to mind, but would UAA accept a state school? RPI?
I'm not sure why UAA would want to expand. Only goal I can see is AQ for baseball, but at-large has worked fairly well for the only serious contenders; CWRU, Emory, and WashU. Or as you suggest a presence in another major metropolitan area.
If you don't mind PM me who's angling and I'll keep it under my hat.
You mentioned that the number of UAA football schools was four, but the website current lists only the three who are playing each other: CMU, CWRU, and Rochester.
There are a lot of things that need to take place for this particular school to even be considered by the UAA. They may not be brought in anyway. I do not know if they will apply or not for the AAU.
And I'm not stating the name right now.
And per football, three are listed (thought it was four; there are technically five if I remember correctly) ... but they don't play as true conference foes technically. The three do play for something, but I admittedly can't remember what. However, the three have access to an AQ through their football conferences.
Is basketball season ever going to get here?
Quote from: WUPHF on September 26, 2018, 12:41:09 PM
Is basketball season ever going to get here?
Closer than I need it to be. LOL
I would have loved for my alma mater to join the UAA ... but, amazingly, they left the AAU in the past decade or so. :o
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 26, 2018, 12:53:45 PM
I would have loved for my alma mater to join the UAA ... but, amazingly, they left the AAU in the past decade or so. :o
A Pope Benedict thing?
I am jealous of all of the days off you all got there.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 26, 2018, 12:53:45 PM
I would have loved for my alma mater to join the UAA ... but, amazingly, they left the AAU in the past decade or so. :o
I'd love your alma mater to join the UAA as well! LOL
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 26, 2018, 12:29:46 PM
There are a lot of things that need to take place for this particular school to even be considered by the UAA. They may not be brought in anyway. I do not know if they will apply or not for the AAU.
And I'm not stating the name right now.
And per football, three are listed (thought it was four; there are technically five if I remember correctly) ... but they don't play as true conference foes technically. The three do play for something, but I admittedly can't remember what. However, the three have access to an AQ through their football conferences.
If I had to guess, I'd say CUNY Brooklyn. Meets many of the requirements for the AAU and is a DIII member.
I'll go with RPI....Hopkins, Tufts, MIT seem like the best fits, but no reason to think Hopkins or Tufts are going anywhere...and don't know enough about MIT's desires. RPI does have a very talented, ambitious and aggressive President...
Ohio State, After going D3 so it does not have to pay players. ::)
Not sure Columbus is a big enough metroplex though. ;)
While Brooklyn College, as it appears they prefer to be call themselves, is part of CUNY, but the CUNY Graduate Center is not solely attached to Brooklyn. Besides UAA already has a presence in NYC.
If we're going to speculate on non-AAU members, can I throw St. Thomas (Minn.) in the mix? Checks several UAA boxes otherwise - major metro, lots of grad programs, etc. And since Catholic came up in this discussion, St. Thomas (124) and Catholic (129) have pretty similar USN&WR rankings as national universities.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 26, 2018, 12:29:46 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on September 26, 2018, 10:04:56 AM
d-mac
Your suggestion that there is a school in a major metropolitan area "angling" to get into the UAA has me scratching my head. Are they trying to join AAU as well? That seems to be a requirement for UAA. At one point there were suggestions that Tulane might drop to D3, but their new football stadium puts the kibosh on that. UT-Dallas is the only current d3 school that comes to mind, but would UAA accept a state school? RPI?
I'm not sure why UAA would want to expand. Only goal I can see is AQ for baseball, but at-large has worked fairly well for the only serious contenders; CWRU, Emory, and WashU. Or as you suggest a presence in another major metropolitan area.
If you don't mind PM me who's angling and I'll keep it under my hat.
You mentioned that the number of UAA football schools was four, but the website current lists only the three who are playing each other: CMU, CWRU, and Rochester.
There are a lot of things that need to take place for this particular school to even be considered by the UAA. They may not be brought in anyway. I do not know if they will apply or not for the AAU.
And I'm not stating the name right now.
And per football, three are listed (thought it was four; there are technically five if I remember correctly) ... but they don't play as true conference foes technically. The three do play for something, but I admittedly can't remember what. However, the three have access to an AQ through their football conferences.
The other two are Chicago (MWC) and Wash U (CCIW). Chicago and Wash U do play for something: the Founders Cup. The oddity is that this football traveling trophy is now contested over by two archrivals who play in different leagues, neither of which is the league (the UAA) for which the Founders Cup was named. (Chicago and Wash U played in the first-ever UAA football game (1987).
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 26, 2018, 12:42:18 PM
Closer than I need it to be. LOL
+1 I get it.
By the way, I have a Hoopsville request for you to invite Greg Sager on to talk conferences, Benedictine, etc. That would be a fun conversation.
Quote from: WUPHF on September 26, 2018, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 26, 2018, 12:42:18 PM
Closer than I need it to be. LOL
+1 I get it.
By the way, I have a Hoopsville request for you to invite Greg Sager on to talk conferences, Benedictine, etc. That would be a fun conversation.
I think Sager has already pointed out ... he doesn't pay attention to much outside of his neck of the woods. :)
I also already have a guest penciled in to talk about Benedictine. :)
That's called, in the business, a tease. LOL
I figured you would have a guest on about Benedictine, but I am glad that is in the works. Definitely an interesting story.
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Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 26, 2018, 03:47:04 PM
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