Quote from: Caz Bombers on February 25, 2018, 07:48:54 PM
I'll be interested to see how the NCAA schedules Yeshiva's inaugural appearance in The Big Horah. The Maccabees cannot play or travel between Friday sundown and Saturday sundown.
Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Assuming they're assigned to a close by regional, they might be able to travel after sunset on Saturday for a late semi-final tilt. 9:00 pm, perhaps?. Championship would need to be scheduled for Sunday.
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on February 25, 2018, 08:40:33 PMAs I understand it, they could play a 1 pm Friday semifinal and then an 8pm final on Saturday.Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Assuming they're assigned to a close by regional, they might be able to travel after sunset on Saturday for a late semi-final tilt. 9:00 pm, perhaps?. Championship would need to be scheduled for Sunday.
Couldn't Yeshiva travel Friday during the day (maybe even get a practice in) and then play the late Semifinal game on Saturday (8pm tip-off would be well after sunset) with the second round game Sunday?
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 25, 2018, 09:56:16 PM
When is the Men's bracket announced tomorrow morning?
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2018, 08:46:20 PMQuote from: hickory_cornhusker on February 25, 2018, 08:40:33 PMAs I understand it, they could play a 1 pm Friday semifinal and then an 8pm final on Saturday.Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Assuming they're assigned to a close by regional, they might be able to travel after sunset on Saturday for a late semi-final tilt. 9:00 pm, perhaps?. Championship would need to be scheduled for Sunday.
Couldn't Yeshiva travel Friday during the day (maybe even get a practice in) and then play the late Semifinal game on Saturday (8pm tip-off would be well after sunset) with the second round game Sunday?
Quote from: Fifth and Putnam on February 25, 2018, 10:03:11 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on February 25, 2018, 09:56:16 PM
When is the Men's bracket announced tomorrow morning?
12:30 PM EST on NCAA.com.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 25, 2018, 10:28:32 PMQuote from: Fifth and Putnam on February 25, 2018, 10:03:11 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on February 25, 2018, 09:56:16 PM
When is the Men's bracket announced tomorrow morning?
12:30 PM EST on NCAA.com.
OK, thanks, I thought the broadcasters on the Whitman/Whitworth game said 9:30...which I suppose would be THEIR time, and also I thought Hoopsville said 9:30.
Quote from: kiko on February 25, 2018, 10:17:31 PMQuote from: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2018, 08:46:20 PMQuote from: hickory_cornhusker on February 25, 2018, 08:40:33 PMAs I understand it, they could play a 1 pm Friday semifinal and then an 8pm final on Saturday.Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Assuming they're assigned to a close by regional, they might be able to travel after sunset on Saturday for a late semi-final tilt. 9:00 pm, perhaps?. Championship would need to be scheduled for Sunday.
Couldn't Yeshiva travel Friday during the day (maybe even get a practice in) and then play the late Semifinal game on Saturday (8pm tip-off would be well after sunset) with the second round game Sunday?
This is the most likely scenario IMO. I would be surprised if a second-round game were pushed to Sunday, for three reasons:
- While there are no games on Sunday, this is when hosts are determined for the following weekend. I doubt the NCAA will let one school's needs disrupt a broader set of activities.
- Pushing this game but not those in adjacent pods to Sunday would create opportunities for extra prep and scouting by schools in adjacent portions of the bracket. That's not fair to Yeshiva -- or to a podmate who beats them.
- Were Yeshiva to lose on Friday, there is no need to adjust scheduling for the second round game... and there would be a clear desire to lock in a date and time for this game before Round 1 happens, so the four schools in the pod have clear visibility to the schedule and can plan accordingly.
I would expect the poobahs to accommodate Yeshiva's needs in a manner that creates as narrow of a disruption on the broader tournament as possible.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 25, 2018, 10:40:02 PMQuote from: kiko on February 25, 2018, 10:17:31 PMQuote from: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2018, 08:46:20 PMQuote from: hickory_cornhusker on February 25, 2018, 08:40:33 PMAs I understand it, they could play a 1 pm Friday semifinal and then an 8pm final on Saturday.Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Assuming they're assigned to a close by regional, they might be able to travel after sunset on Saturday for a late semi-final tilt. 9:00 pm, perhaps?. Championship would need to be scheduled for Sunday.
Couldn't Yeshiva travel Friday during the day (maybe even get a practice in) and then play the late Semifinal game on Saturday (8pm tip-off would be well after sunset) with the second round game Sunday?
This is the most likely scenario IMO. I would be surprised if a second-round game were pushed to Sunday, for three reasons:
- While there are no games on Sunday, this is when hosts are determined for the following weekend. I doubt the NCAA will let one school's needs disrupt a broader set of activities.
- Pushing this game but not those in adjacent pods to Sunday would create opportunities for extra prep and scouting by schools in adjacent portions of the bracket. That's not fair to Yeshiva -- or to a podmate who beats them.
- Were Yeshiva to lose on Friday, there is no need to adjust scheduling for the second round game... and there would be a clear desire to lock in a date and time for this game before Round 1 happens, so the four schools in the pod have clear visibility to the schedule and can plan accordingly.
I would expect the poobahs to accommodate Yeshiva's needs in a manner that creates as narrow of a disruption on the broader tournament as possible.
The question is whether Yeshiva would forgo a walkthrough Saturday morning. If they want time to practice, the game will likely be moved. However, the chances of them winning a first round game are pretty slim, so it's probably moot.
Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
Who would have predicted that last place (8 seed) Berry would beat 7 seed Hendrix in the finals of the SAC Tournament to get to the dance? The Maccabees prospects of getting a tournament win seem far greater than an 8-17 team advancing through the SAC to earn a Pool A spot.
How about a future Final Four with Yeshiva versus Calvin or Wheaton (no Sunday games allowed)? How would the NCAA handle that?? ???
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 25, 2018, 11:35:34 PMWheaton doesn't play on Sunday, in football at least. Their game against North Central this year (http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2017/contrib/20171016lgpkd5) was delayed due to weather and they eventually stopped it at halftime late Saturday night when it was clear the game wouldn't finish before midnight then they resumed on Monday.Quote from: augie77 on February 25, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
Who would have predicted that last place (8 seed) Berry would beat 7 seed Hendrix in the finals of the SAC Tournament to get to the dance? The Maccabees prospects of getting a tournament win seem far greater than an 8-17 team advancing through the SAC to earn a Pool A spot.
How about a future Final Four with Yeshiva versus Calvin or Wheaton (no Sunday games allowed)? How would the NCAA handle that?? ???
Calvin has forgone the Sunday limitation as has Hope and Messiah. I am not sure about Wheaton. However, in your very extreme hypothesis, the NCAA would know in advance and plan accordingly... I bet a Saturday/Monday would be put in place... though CBS Sports would be a bit ticked off.
QuoteWow is that Wittinberg/Augustana quarter of the bracket brutal ...
Quote from: nescac1 on February 26, 2018, 01:28:30 PM
Uhh, yeah. The Whitman bracket is also brutal. Not sure which of those two is tougher at first glance ...
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 08:37:56 PMLeTourneau is being flown to Atlanta (650 miles).
It's really disappointing that they couldn't split up Whitman and Whitworth. I failed geography, but did they fly LeTourneau out? I'm pretty sure Sul Ross State got flown out, though sending Whitworth or Whitman to Platteville or Emory would probably be harsh.
Of the tough 1st rounders, off the top of my head: Point v NCC, Plattsburgh v Nichols, Marietta v Oshkosh, Wooster v IWU...
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 08:37:56 PMBut, they get very winnable first round games and then get to play each other in a familiar venue where their fans can see the game.
It's really disappointing that they couldn't split up Whitman and Whitworth. I failed geography, but did they fly LeTourneau out? I'm pretty sure Sul Ross State got flown out, though sending Whitworth or Whitman to Platteville or Emory would probably be harsh.
Of the tough 1st rounders, off the top of my head: Point v NCC, Plattsburgh v Nichols, Marietta v Oshkosh, Wooster v IWU...
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 08:37:56 PMGreek, and anyone else who wants to comment,
It's really disappointing that they couldn't split up Whitman and Whitworth. I failed geography, but did they fly LeTourneau out? I'm pretty sure Sul Ross State got flown out, though sending Whitworth or Whitman to Platteville or Emory would probably be harsh.
Of the tough 1st rounders, off the top of my head: Point v NCC, Plattsburgh v Nichols, Marietta v Oshkosh, Wooster v IWU...
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2018, 10:24:44 PMSurprise,surprise, surprise!!!
We were told on the Hoopsville special by the committee chair - NONE of the Texas schools filed to host. There were no hosting opportunities in Texas for the committee.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 26, 2018, 10:33:51 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 08:37:56 PMGreek, and anyone else who wants to comment,
It's really disappointing that they couldn't split up Whitman and Whitworth. I failed geography, but did they fly LeTourneau out? I'm pretty sure Sul Ross State got flown out, though sending Whitworth or Whitman to Platteville or Emory would probably be harsh.
Of the tough 1st rounders, off the top of my head: Point v NCC, Plattsburgh v Nichols, Marietta v Oshkosh, Wooster v IWU...
I seek insight into your perceived strength of the Pool C's relative to the AQ's.
For arbitrary assignment, let's use the Hoopsville first 17 and then plug in the last 4 in any order.
1) In straight ranking, how many Pool A teams do you perceive are better than:
Hoopsville Pool C #1 Hamilton?
Hoopsville Pool C #8 Wooster?
Hoopsville Pool C #9 Marietta?
Hoopsville Pool C #14 UW-Oshkosh?
Hoopsville Pool C #17 IWU?
Hoopsville Pool C "#18 NCC" and assume they came off next.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 11:15:10 PM
Are all the Saturday games at the same local time? 7 pm, for example? Or are there afternoon games?
Quote from: augie77 on February 27, 2018, 01:07:13 AM
Games are at 5:30 and 7:30 local time unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Due to Sabbath restrictions Yeshiva and York will tip off in York at 1:00 pm on Friday. Hamilton and Nazareth will follow at 3:00.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 26, 2018, 10:33:51 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 08:37:56 PMGreek, and anyone else who wants to comment,
It's really disappointing that they couldn't split up Whitman and Whitworth. I failed geography, but did they fly LeTourneau out? I'm pretty sure Sul Ross State got flown out, though sending Whitworth or Whitman to Platteville or Emory would probably be harsh.
Of the tough 1st rounders, off the top of my head: Point v NCC, Plattsburgh v Nichols, Marietta v Oshkosh, Wooster v IWU...
I seek insight into your perceived strength of the Pool C's relative to the AQ's.
For arbitrary assignment, let's use the Hoopsville first 17 and then plug in the last 4 in any order.
1) In straight ranking, how many Pool A teams do you perceive are better than:
Hoopsville Pool C #1 Hamilton?
Hoopsville Pool C #8 Wooster?
Hoopsville Pool C #9 Marietta?
Hoopsville Pool C #14 UW-Oshkosh?
Hoopsville Pool C #17 IWU?
Hoopsville Pool C "#18 NCC" and assume they came off next.
I count that the 21 bids were allocated to the teams from 15 conferences, so bid #21 is theoretically, at best, 36th best team in the tourney. The Pool A bids from other 28 single bid conferences may or may not better than #36.
Is a good round number that Pool C bid #21, for example, Brockport is better than 15 or 20 of the Pool A bids?
Thanks to all.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 27, 2018, 12:48:50 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2018, 11:15:10 PM
Are all the Saturday games at the same local time? 7 pm, for example? Or are there afternoon games?
There is a standard time, but I do not know, for sure, what it is. There are legitimate reasons for changing it, but I am also unclear as to what those are.
Quote from: spwood on February 27, 2018, 07:00:40 AMQuote from: augie77 on February 27, 2018, 01:07:13 AM
Games are at 5:30 and 7:30 local time unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Due to Sabbath restrictions Yeshiva and York will tip off in York at 1:00 pm on Friday. Hamilton and Nazareth will follow at 3:00.
The NCAA.com bracket shows the game as 1 PM on Saturday. I assumed that was a misprint.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on February 27, 2018, 04:57:15 AM
There is an option to have a split session and play the games at 5:30 and 8:00 so you can empty the gym in between. I also believe that the home team must play the second game. That's what I have been told. I think the Saturday games are at 7:00.
I assume that the NCAA can grant waivers if necessary and requested.
Quote from: mailsy on February 27, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Something I noticed. My Cabrini squads, winners of the CSAC, are playing the winners of the same conference, the CUNYAC. M-Staten Island. W-Brooklyn. I'm not talking pool C teams. But pool A. Are there any other schools who have both teams, winners of their conference, playing the winner of the same conference? Does this happen often? Curious. Thanks.
Quote from: mailsy on February 27, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Something I noticed. My Cabrini squads, winners of the CSAC, are playing the winners of the same conference, the CUNYAC. M-Staten Island. W-Brooklyn. I'm not talking pool C teams. But pool A. Are there any other schools who have both teams, winners of their conference, playing the winner of the same conference? Does this happen often? Curious. Thanks.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 27, 2018, 11:55:25 AMQuote from: mailsy on February 27, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Something I noticed. My Cabrini squads, winners of the CSAC, are playing the winners of the same conference, the CUNYAC. M-Staten Island. W-Brooklyn. I'm not talking pool C teams. But pool A. Are there any other schools who have both teams, winners of their conference, playing the winner of the same conference? Does this happen often? Curious. Thanks.
I imagine NESCAC and MASCAC winners have probably played each other quite a bit, especially since the MASCAC is pretty prone to upsets.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 27, 2018, 11:58:21 AMQuote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 27, 2018, 11:55:25 AMQuote from: mailsy on February 27, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Something I noticed. My Cabrini squads, winners of the CSAC, are playing the winners of the same conference, the CUNYAC. M-Staten Island. W-Brooklyn. I'm not talking pool C teams. But pool A. Are there any other schools who have both teams, winners of their conference, playing the winner of the same conference? Does this happen often? Curious. Thanks.
I imagine NESCAC and MASCAC winners have probably played each other quite a bit, especially since the MASCAC is pretty prone to upsets.
Off the top of my head just on the women's side it has happened twice in the last three tournaments (counting this year). Men's side, I know it has happened (this year, right?) often as well.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 27, 2018, 12:11:55 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 27, 2018, 11:58:21 AMQuote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 27, 2018, 11:55:25 AMQuote from: mailsy on February 27, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Something I noticed. My Cabrini squads, winners of the CSAC, are playing the winners of the same conference, the CUNYAC. M-Staten Island. W-Brooklyn. I'm not talking pool C teams. But pool A. Are there any other schools who have both teams, winners of their conference, playing the winner of the same conference? Does this happen often? Curious. Thanks.
I imagine NESCAC and MASCAC winners have probably played each other quite a bit, especially since the MASCAC is pretty prone to upsets.
Off the top of my head just on the women's side it has happened twice in the last three tournaments (counting this year). Men's side, I know it has happened (this year, right?) often as well.
Amherst women are playing Becker this year, so it's not happening right now. I don't have the time to go back and check.
Quote from: BBJones on February 27, 2018, 04:35:50 PM
Congrats to Yeshiva, I hope they work out all the previously addressed Sabbath requirements. That should be respected by the NCAA. Also provides an educational opportunity for all of us understand the beliefs of the Maccabees. :)
I attended the quad that Hope College hosted first and second round last year. After sundown, the Wisconsin teams--Ripon and Oshkosh, who both lost close first round games--exercised a few demons with the holy water of Holland, which they eventually ran out of at the hotel bar. :o
Quote from: deiscanton on February 27, 2018, 06:59:28 PM
York, PA has an active Chabad community that can help out Yeshiva with the observance of Shabbat.
Quote from: BBJones on February 27, 2018, 04:35:50 PM
Congrats to Yeshiva, I hope they work out all the previously addressed Sabbath requirements. That should be respected by the NCAA. Also provides an educational opportunity for all of us understand the beliefs of the Maccabees. :)
I attended the quad that Hope College hosted first and second round last year. After sundown, the Wisconsin teams--Ripon and Oshkosh, who both lost close first round games--exercised a few demons with the holy water of Holland, which they eventually ran out of at the hotel bar. :o
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 28, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
Do you have a link? Very cool story!
Quote from: Gray Fox on February 28, 2018, 02:52:56 PMI can see it now. The world famous St Olaf's Choir performing, Home on the Range, "where the deer and the antelope play".
I'm intrigued by the match up of Sul Ross State and St. Olaf.
Two very different cultures I'm sure they play the game with the same enthusiasm.
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
Quote from: AllStar on March 01, 2018, 01:26:05 PM
Some info:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ojigy3E.png)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 01, 2018, 12:08:13 PMThe way I did those "pods" was the first round game was always at one of those two teams so that counted in the first round, then the winner traveled to the team with a bye and that counted for the 2nd round. That's why even though only 86 home teams won round one there ended up being 91 home teams in round two because five times the home team lost round one but then there was a different home team for round 2.
+1! FCGQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
A question about the role of teams that get a bye in the first round. Should not that game count as a 2nd round game, because one opponent has already won a game?
The host team in the 2nd round that received a bye was usually considered the higher seed. There may have been times when geographic proximity in the island regions mandated the venue (IMHO).
If so, then I would move the first round games in a bye bracket accordingly, so we always have 16 games in the second round and fewer in the first round.
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 08:36:43 PMThanks for the explanation, FCG! Another +1!Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 01, 2018, 12:08:13 PMThe way I did those "pods" was the first round game was always at one of those two teams so that counted in the first round, then the winner traveled to the team with a bye and that counted for the 2nd round. That's why even though only 86 home teams won round one there ended up being 91 home teams in round two because five times the home team lost round one but then there was a different home team for round 2.
+1! FCGQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
A question about the role of teams that get a bye in the first round. Should not that game count as a 2nd round game, because one opponent has already won a game?
The host team in the 2nd round that received a bye was usually considered the higher seed. There may have been times when geographic proximity in the island regions mandated the venue (IMHO).
If so, then I would move the first round games in a bye bracket accordingly, so we always have 16 games in the second round and fewer in the first round.
Another stat I didn't include in my initial post... home teams for the pods won the pod first weekend 60.7% while the 2nd weekend just 46.4%
Quote from: ronk on March 02, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
Is their a ROKU channel for the NCAA tourney or do we have to go with the conference channel for a team(Landmark for Moravian,Scranton, or Juniata) or the host site conference(NESCAC for the Williams regional, e.g.)?
Quote from: lmitzel on March 02, 2018, 12:55:36 PMQuote from: ronk on March 02, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
Is their a ROKU channel for the NCAA tourney or do we have to go with the conference channel for a team(Landmark for Moravian,Scranton, or Juniata) or the host site conference(NESCAC for the Williams regional, e.g.)?
I don't know that there's a nationwide channel, so it'll probably have to be the host team/conference site.
Here's the link to the York-Yeshiva game about to start: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/ycp/portal.htm?eventId=432350&streamType=video
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 02, 2018, 01:35:37 PMQuote from: lmitzel on March 02, 2018, 12:55:36 PMQuote from: ronk on March 02, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
Is their a ROKU channel for the NCAA tourney or do we have to go with the conference channel for a team(Landmark for Moravian,Scranton, or Juniata) or the host site conference(NESCAC for the Williams regional, e.g.)?
I don't know that there's a nationwide channel, so it'll probably have to be the host team/conference site.
Here's the link to the York-Yeshiva game about to start: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/ycp/portal.htm?eventId=432350&streamType=video
JCUsports has a Boxcast channel. That said, here are links to the two games in University Heights today:
IWU-Wooster
https://boxcast.tv/view/ncaa-division-iii-basketball-championship-1st-round-illinois-wesleyan-vs-wooster-633823
JCU-Thomas More
https://boxcast.tv/view/ncaa-division-iii-basketball-championship-1st-round-thomas-more-at-john-carroll-547519
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 08:36:43 PMQuote from: Ralph Turner on March 01, 2018, 12:08:13 PMThe way I did those "pods" was the first round game was always at one of those two teams so that counted in the first round, then the winner traveled to the team with a bye and that counted for the 2nd round. That's why even though only 86 home teams won round one there ended up being 91 home teams in round two because five times the home team lost round one but then there was a different home team for round 2.
+1! FCGQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
A question about the role of teams that get a bye in the first round. Should not that game count as a 2nd round game, because one opponent has already won a game?
The host team in the 2nd round that received a bye was usually considered the higher seed. There may have been times when geographic proximity in the island regions mandated the venue (IMHO).
If so, then I would move the first round games in a bye bracket accordingly, so we always have 16 games in the second round and fewer in the first round.
Another stat I didn't include in my initial post... home teams for the pods won the pod first weekend 60.7% while the 2nd weekend just 46.4%
Quote from: Caz Bombers on March 02, 2018, 10:09:44 PM
not that it mattered, but the Aurora dude was about four feet behind the line when he shot, how could they possibly call that a two?
whew, that was the March Madness we've been craving! Upset city, onions, double order!
Quote from: (509)Rat on March 02, 2018, 10:21:23 PM
Well it's shaping up to be a total cake walk to Salem for Whitman
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 02, 2018, 10:23:18 PMQuote from: (509)Rat on March 02, 2018, 10:21:23 PM
Well it's shaping up to be a total cake walk to Salem for Whitman
Yeah, I'm sure CMS is just gonna lay down. ??? ::) ;D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMMassey gave Aurora a 9% chance and Bethany a 6% chance.
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: AO on March 02, 2018, 10:57:19 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMMassey gave Aurora a 9% chance and Bethany a 6% chance.
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMHow about Northwestern MN 71 #3 Tommies 70 in 2015?
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 02, 2018, 11:03:47 PMQuote from: AO on March 02, 2018, 10:57:19 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMMassey gave Aurora a 9% chance and Bethany a 6% chance.
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
In Greg's defense, that game ended before the Bethany Lutheran game ended...So, he would be accurate...for about 1/2 an hour.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 02, 2018, 11:25:03 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMHow about Northwestern MN 71 #3 Tommies 70 in 2015?
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 02, 2018, 11:10:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ILN3D2CBmU
Definitely a 3 by Myers.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 02, 2018, 11:25:03 PMA personal favorite for sure, but Massey did give us a slightly better chance: 11% I think we do get bonus upset points when you consider that the Tommies won it all the next year.Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMHow about Northwestern MN 71 #3 Tommies 70 in 2015?
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 02, 2018, 11:31:30 PM
It's academic since the shot counted, but shouldn't the game clock have started when the Aurora player caught the inbounds? I was wondering why that four seconds felt so fast ...
Quote from: WUPHF on March 03, 2018, 12:03:59 AMThe on-screen graphic didn't match the in-game scoreboard which was at 1.6 on the inbound and seemed to start on time.Quote from: nescac1 on March 02, 2018, 11:31:30 PM
It's academic since the shot counted, but shouldn't the game clock have started when the Aurora player caught the inbounds? I was wondering why that four seconds felt so fast ...
They had a different clock operator tonight...
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2018, 10:08:48 PMDefiance over UW-Whitewater in 2015... UWW were the defending champs and ranked #2 entering the tournament (with 11 first place votes)... Defiance didn't just squeak by on Whitewater's court, they were up as much as 19 in the final minute.
Amazing finish in St. Louis.
Trust me, folks -- I've followed this tournament almost since its inception in the mid-1970s, and this is the biggest upset in the D3 tourney that I can recall.
I honestly can't think of a bigger one.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
It doesn't start until AFTER Wash U hits their 3 to tie it. Not sure how "official" the clock on the screen is...
Quote from: rlgyank on March 03, 2018, 03:42:17 PM
Would somebody who is smarter than me let me know about possible hosting for the sectionals. Do you have to submit a bid for those rounds also, or do they just award those to someone? Thanks in advance.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 03, 2018, 12:50:45 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
It doesn't start until AFTER Wash U hits their 3 to tie it. Not sure how "official" the clock on the screen is...
I finally watched the video and it confirms what I believed to be the case last night: the clock operator did everything right.
The only thing Washington University has to complain about is the fact that three defenders looked completely lost on the in-bounds play. Unfortunately, Washington University had already used their final two timeouts to set up that final three-point shot.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 03, 2018, 12:50:45 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
It doesn't start until AFTER Wash U hits their 3 to tie it. Not sure how "official" the clock on the screen is...
I finally watched the video and it confirms what I believed to be the case last night: the clock operator did everything right.
The only thing Washington University has to complain about is the fact that three defenders looked completely lost on the in-bounds play.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 04:24:59 PM
I think that you're being too hard on the Bears regarding the endgame scenario. I think that the Spartans either showed five-way genius basketball improvisation or (more likely) perfectly executed something drawn up by Lance Robinson that they'd practiced for just this situation, [...]
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 04:24:59 PM
Now, what happened before the endgame scenario, the 39:55 that produced the situation in which Wash U was fighting for its life on its own floor against a heavy underdog -- there's plenty of room for criticizing the Bears for that.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 03, 2018, 05:02:55 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 04:24:59 PM
I think that you're being too hard on the Bears regarding the endgame scenario. I think that the Spartans either showed five-way genius basketball improvisation or (more likely) perfectly executed something drawn up by Lance Robinson that they'd practiced for just this situation, [...]
There is no reason why Washington University should not have had a body on Marcus Myers.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 03, 2018, 05:02:55 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 04:24:59 PM
Now, what happened before the endgame scenario, the 39:55 that produced the situation in which Wash U was fighting for its life on its own floor against a heavy underdog -- there's plenty of room for criticizing the Bears for that.
I certainly agree with this...
I was making an assumption that my comments would be taken in context of the comment I quoted which questioned whether or not there was an issue with the clock.
There were hundreds of clicks on the UAA thread in the hours since I last posted. If you tell me you have yet to read any of my comments, I'll believe you. But I have written in more detail than anyone else that I have seen about how Aurora won and Washington University lost the game.
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 03, 2018, 05:59:02 PM+1! Last second play. Congrats to Aurora!
According to the Aurora players on the court after the game, that is their last second shot play. They have practiced it all season.a
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 09:58:43 PM
John Carroll to Augustana is 503 miles :-\
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 09:58:43 PM
John Carroll to Augustana is 503 miles :-\
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:07:17 PMIf you measure it by the way Coach G's coat flys, I am sure it is 499 miles :D ;D :oQuote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 09:58:43 PM
John Carroll to Augustana is 503 miles :-\
JCU will get to fly to Quad Cities International Airport, then, because I'm pretty sure that Augie is going to host the sectional. UW-Oshkosh and Augie are the only two schools within busing distance among the four, and Augie's seeded highly enough to be a host while UWO isn't.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
Quote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PM
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
Quote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 03, 2018, 10:17:21 PM
Whitman, UW-Stevens Point, Nebraska Wesleyan, UW-Platteville...
That would be at UW-Platteville.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:27:47 PMQuote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Based upon the fact that NebWes had two of the best players in last season's IIAC, Nate Schimonitz and Cooper Cook, coming back this season, I knew that the Prairie Wolves would be good. If anything, it looks like several other NWU players, such as Deion Wells-Ross and Ryan Garver, have emerged this season as stars, too.
With all of the carnage that took place this weekend, NebWes looks to me to be one of the remaining favorites.
Quote from: BobbyO on March 03, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Looking at map quest it appears that Emory is a little over 500 to John Carroll, Augie and Oshkosh barely under 500. Emory is the highest ranked at 6th, Augie is 9th, John Carroll is 20th and Oshkosh is 23rd. I doubt that the NCAA would fly Augie and Oshkosh to Atlanta. Emory would be the only one that would have to be transported via air. If the look at rankings it should be at Augie. John Carroll is the most central to other schools. I am pulling for Rock Island IL at the Carver Center.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:22:50 PMQuote from: Titan Q on March 03, 2018, 10:17:21 PM
Whitman, UW-Stevens Point, Nebraska Wesleyan, UW-Platteville...
That would be at UW-Platteville.
Yep.
Ramapo, F&M, Middlebury, and MIT? Your guess is as good as mine. It's an all-busing sectional, we know that. But none of thees four teams hosted this weekend, so none of them are high seeds.
Swarthmore, Plattsburgh State, Hamilton, and Springfield is also an all-busing sectional.This one has a likely host, though, as Plattsburgh State was seeded highly enough to host a pod this weekend. I think that this sectional will be up in the North Country.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:22:50 PMI'd wager a guess at Ramapo since they were second regionally in the final rankings. But Middlebury might have a stronger case. And it all depend on who put in to host week 2.
Yep.
Ramapo, F&M, Middlebury, and MIT? Your guess is as good as mine. It's an all-busing sectional, we know that. But none of thees four teams hosted this weekend, so none of them are high seeds.
Quote from: BobbyO on March 03, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Looking at map quest it appears that Emory is a little over 500 to John Carroll, Augie and Oshkosh barely under 500. Emory is the highest ranked at 6th, Augie is 9th, John Carroll is 20th and Oshkosh is 23rd. I doubt that the NCAA would fly Augie and Oshkosh to Atlanta. Emory would be the only one that would have to be transported via air. If the look at rankings it should be at Augie. John Carroll is the most central to other schools. I am pulling for Rock Island IL at the Carver Center.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 10:46:47 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:27:47 PMQuote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Based upon the fact that NebWes had two of the best players in last season's IIAC, Nate Schimonitz and Cooper Cook, coming back this season, I knew that the Prairie Wolves would be good. If anything, it looks like several other NWU players, such as Deion Wells-Ross and Ryan Garver, have emerged this season as stars, too.
With all of the carnage that took place this weekend, NebWes looks to me to be one of the remaining favorites.
In a sectional that includes Whitman/CMS, Platteville and Point?
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 10:46:47 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:27:47 PMQuote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Based upon the fact that NebWes had two of the best players in last season's IIAC, Nate Schimonitz and Cooper Cook, coming back this season, I knew that the Prairie Wolves would be good. If anything, it looks like several other NWU players, such as Deion Wells-Ross and Ryan Garver, have emerged this season as stars, too.
With all of the carnage that took place this weekend, NebWes looks to me to be one of the remaining favorites.
In a sectional that includes Whitman/CMS, Platteville and Point?
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 03, 2018, 10:59:38 PMQuote from: BobbyO on March 03, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Looking at map quest it appears that Emory is a little over 500 to John Carroll, Augie and Oshkosh barely under 500. Emory is the highest ranked at 6th, Augie is 9th, John Carroll is 20th and Oshkosh is 23rd. I doubt that the NCAA would fly Augie and Oshkosh to Atlanta. Emory would be the only one that would have to be transported via air. If the look at rankings it should be at Augie. John Carroll is the most central to other schools. I am pulling for Rock Island IL at the Carver Center.
The NCAA doesn't use MapQuest. They measure mileage at this site:
https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles
Using that system, it's likely Augustana. All three teams would need to fly to Emory so they're out. All three teams would need to fly to Cleveland so JCU is out.
So, it's either Augustana or Oshkosh to save a flight. Augustana is the higher seed (they hosted this weekend and Oshkosh didn't). So...to Augustana.
Quote
Plattsburgh probably deserves to host, but will they bid? They're going to have NCAA women's hockey at their rink next weekend for sure, but that's just one game.
Quote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 11:03:08 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 10:46:47 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 10:27:47 PMQuote from: KnightSlappy on March 03, 2018, 10:21:03 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 10:10:33 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan moves on with an 82-61 win over Aurora in St. Louis.
I think Nebraska Wesleyan's non-conference schedule caused a sizable chunk of fans, analysts, and poll voters to underestimate their overall level of talent and capabilities.
Can anyone explain how the NCAA looks at host sites for the 3rd and 4th rounds? If a team hosted games last evening and tonight, does that make any difference as far as hosting again next weekend?
Is it all dependent on the remaining seeds? Thanks.
All of the computer ratings systems had Nebraska Wesleyan in the top five or six at the end of the season.
Based upon the fact that NebWes had two of the best players in last season's IIAC, Nate Schimonitz and Cooper Cook, coming back this season, I knew that the Prairie Wolves would be good. If anything, it looks like several other NWU players, such as Deion Wells-Ross and Ryan Garver, have emerged this season as stars, too.
With all of the carnage that took place this weekend, NebWes looks to me to be one of the remaining favorites.
In a sectional that includes Whitman/CMS, Platteville and Point?
Other than their top ranking, I don't really know anything about Whitman.
Quote from: AndOne on March 03, 2018, 11:03:08 PMHowever, if NWU plays either Platt or Point, I'd be willing to wager a small sum on NWU coming out on top. 😏
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 11:03:30 PMQuote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 03, 2018, 10:59:38 PMQuote from: BobbyO on March 03, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Looking at map quest it appears that Emory is a little over 500 to John Carroll, Augie and Oshkosh barely under 500. Emory is the highest ranked at 6th, Augie is 9th, John Carroll is 20th and Oshkosh is 23rd. I doubt that the NCAA would fly Augie and Oshkosh to Atlanta. Emory would be the only one that would have to be transported via air. If the look at rankings it should be at Augie. John Carroll is the most central to other schools. I am pulling for Rock Island IL at the Carver Center.
The NCAA doesn't use MapQuest. They measure mileage at this site:
https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles
Using that system, it's likely Augustana. All three teams would need to fly to Emory so they're out. All three teams would need to fly to Cleveland so JCU is out.
So, it's either Augustana or Oshkosh to save a flight. Augustana is the higher seed (they hosted this weekend and Oshkosh didn't). So...to Augustana.
Yes, thank you, OOJC, for confirming this and saving me the trouble of pulling up TES in spite of the fact that I was already pretty sure about it. :D
Quote from: Rofrog on March 03, 2018, 11:46:55 PMThey might fly an extra team, but probably not. Maybe both of the bussing schools didn't submit to host for some reason or another. If two teams are within 500 miles of one another, it is highly likely one of those two will host.
I'm not sure if they care about the mileage at this time.I remember last year on the women's side they shipped Scranton,Tufts and I think Oshkosh to St Louis way over 500 miles for them two teams.But who knows!
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2018, 11:45:07 PM
No love for the WIAC, that's ok. ;D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 03, 2018, 11:01:09 PM
Actually, I think that whichever team that wins this sectional is the favorite going into Salem.
Quote from: Rofrog on March 03, 2018, 11:46:55 PM
I'm not sure if they care about the mileage at this time.I remember last year on the women's side they shipped Scranton,Tufts and I think Oshkosh to St Louis way over 500 miles for them two teams.But who knows!
Quote from: AllStar on March 04, 2018, 12:58:02 AM
Through the first weekend:
(https://i.imgur.com/7cNyq6w.png)
Quote from: BobbyO on March 03, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Looking at map quest it appears that Emory is a little over 500 to John Carroll, Augie and Oshkosh barely under 500. Emory is the highest ranked at 6th, Augie is 9th, John Carroll is 20th and Oshkosh is 23rd. I doubt that the NCAA would fly Augie and Oshkosh to Atlanta. Emory would be the only one that would have to be transported via air. If the look at rankings it should be at Augie. John Carroll is the most central to other schools. I am pulling for Rock Island IL at the Carver Center.
Quote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 12:58:51 AM
Although I know things unfortunately aren't going to change, I can't help but thinking it's a shame that geography plays such a vital role in site determination. That's because the result is often that a team gets it's first four games all at home. If the NCAA wants a true national championship tournament they need to move a percent or two of the multi million dollars they make from the D1 tournament and spent it on a few flights for D3 teams. Otherwise if they allow a team to host both the first two weekends they may just as well call it the (insert team name) Invitational instead of the National Tournament. It just seems inherently unfair to let a team potentially have four home games to get to the Final Four. Any team put in such an advantageous position should be ashamed if they don't make it to Salem.
I understand others might have a differing opinion, and I have no problem with that. I only ask if such is the case, that you please explain your thinking 🤔. Thanks.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
Quote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 12:58:51 AM
Although I know things unfortunately aren't going to change, I can't help but thinking it's a shame that geography plays such a vital role in site determination. That's because the result is often that a team gets it's first four games all at home. If the NCAA wants a true national championship tournament they need to move a percent or two of the multi million dollars they make from the D1 tournament and spent it on a few flights for D3 teams. Otherwise if they allow a team to host both the first two weekends they may just as well call it the (insert team name) Invitational instead of the National Tournament. It just seems inherently unfair to let a team potentially have four home games to get to the Final Four. Any team put in such an advantageous position should be ashamed if they don't make it to Salem.
I understand others might have a differing opinion, and I have no problem with that. I only ask if such is the case, that you please explain your thinking 🤔. Thanks.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 08:30:58 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No leniency on the rule in terms of making these decisions. But teams can choose to bus instead of fly if it works better for them.
Like John Carroll to Augustana. There is no great way to flight that. You either go Cleveland to Detroit to Quad Cities, or Cleveland to Chicago and then drive 2.5 hours. You'd actually get there faster by just getting on the bus and doing the 7:30 drive.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:02:30 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
However, I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think you're allowed to fly if it's under 500 miles even if you pay for it yourself. I remember Mount getting dinged for that on their first or second Stagg Bowl trip. They flew even thought it was under 500 miles - they chartered a team flight and a fan flight. Of course, maybe the rules changed.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 04, 2018, 09:10:07 AMQuote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:02:30 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
However, I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think you're allowed to fly if it's under 500 miles even if you pay for it yourself. I remember Mount getting dinged for that on their first or second Stagg Bowl trip. They flew even thought it was under 500 miles - they chartered a team flight and a fan flight. Of course, maybe the rules changed.
You can pay for your own flight whenever you want, at least in basketball. The NCAA doesn't care if you spend your own money. They might not reimburse you for anything if you fly (like they might not give you the bus equivalent), but you can travel however you want if its on your own dime.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 08:58:35 AMQuote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 08:30:58 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No leniency on the rule in terms of making these decisions. But teams can choose to bus instead of fly if it works better for them.
Like John Carroll to Augustana. There is no great way to flight that. You either go Cleveland to Detroit to Quad Cities, or Cleveland to Chicago and then drive 2.5 hours. You'd actually get there faster by just getting on the bus and doing the 7:30 drive.
I know football uses charter flights but I assume that is because of the size of the travel party. Do they charter basketball teams? If not, I'm with you on JCU to Quad Cities. That's a very incovenient flight. JCU may bus them. It'll be interesting to see what Coach Moran decides.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:02:30 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
However, I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think you're allowed to fly if it's under 500 miles even if you pay for it yourself. I remember Mount getting dinged for that on their first or second Stagg Bowl trip. They flew even thought it was under 500 miles - they chartered a team flight and a fan flight. Of course, maybe the rules changed.
Quote from: Riley056 on March 04, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
Why would you charter a flight? Unless you have a deal with an airline and purchase every seat on a specific plane, chartering is much more expensive.
UAA teams travel this way every weekend and fly commercial.
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
I assume this is also an expense thing, but why the Friday/Saturday contests (rather than Friday/Sunday)? Last night Neb Wesleyan was the beneficiary of an Aurora team that just had nothing left in the tank.
I apologize for being a newby, but this feels like a real competitive issue.
Quote from: Riley056 on March 04, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
Why would you charter a flight? Unless you have a deal with an airline and purchase every seat on a specific plane, chartering is much more expensive.
UAA teams travel this way every weekend and fly commercial.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 11:44:09 AMQuote from: Riley056 on March 04, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
Why would you charter a flight? Unless you have a deal with an airline and purchase every seat on a specific plane, chartering is much more expensive.
UAA teams travel this way every weekend and fly commercial.
Because you are buying the tickets with about 4 days notice (purchase Sunday for travel Wednesday or Thursday). A) The price is crazy, and B) availability for an entire basketball traveling crew is tough to come by.
Like Emory to Quad Cities direct this week -- what are the odds the entire Emory crew can get on that Delta flight at this point?
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
I assume this is also an expense thing, but why the Friday/Saturday contests (rather than Friday/Sunday)? Last night Neb Wesleyan was the beneficiary of an Aurora team that just had nothing left in the tank.
I apologize for being a newby, but this feels like a real competitive issue.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:13:25 AMQuote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 12:58:51 AM
Although I know things unfortunately aren't going to change, I can't help but thinking it's a shame that geography plays such a vital role in site determination. That's because the result is often that a team gets it's first four games all at home. If the NCAA wants a true national championship tournament they need to move a percent or two of the multi million dollars they make from the D1 tournament and spent it on a few flights for D3 teams. Otherwise if they allow a team to host both the first two weekends they may just as well call it the (insert team name) Invitational instead of the National Tournament. It just seems inherently unfair to let a team potentially have four home games to get to the Final Four. Any team put in such an advantageous position should be ashamed if they don't make it to Salem.
I understand others might have a differing opinion, and I have no problem with that. I only ask if such is the case, that you please explain your thinking 🤔. Thanks.
Well, then, I guess that all of the men's basketball tournaments that D3 has held since the division's inception in the mid-'70s have not been "true national championship tournaments", because higher seeds have been hosting multiple rounds since the very beginning. What's more, since this model is followed by a large number of the other D3 sports as well for their championships, I guess that the football, volleyball, women's basketball, lacrosse (men's & women's), etc. national championship tournaments have all been fake as well. It seems a shame that so many of us have spent so many years following fake championships, and that so many people over the years have derived so much pleasure from seeing their teams win something that obviously isn't valid. Perhaps some good can come of this, however, by taking all of those Walnut & Bronze trophies that apparently have no value whatsoever to the schools that clearly didn't earn them properly, due to the tournaments being fake, and giving them to other organizations to be re-purposed. I'll bet that, with a little modification, they'd make dandy Employee of the Month trophies for the local Office Depot, Jo-Ann Fabrics, and Burger King franchises located near the schools that won those fake championships.
Since D3 championships are funded on D1's dime, and since D1 owes nothing whatsoever to D3 in return, the desire for D1 to cough up more money to fund either several extra flights or the rental fees for neutral-site sectional venues that will be largely empty constitutes nothing more than wishful thinking. Personally, I'd rather spend my time and energy conversing about pragmatic, real-world aspects of D3 championship tournaments than making conjectures about something that will never happen ... but perhaps that's just me.
I also don't see the point of wishing for more flight money if the purpose is to prevent an "(insert team name) Invitational", because that's a completely separate issue. What's the reasoning behind flying three teams to Walla Walla in that case? Whitman's already hosted a pod. All you're doing is defeating your own purpose, which is to prevent teams from hosting two weekends' worth of games.
I don't see the competitive logic in the other alternative, which would be to award sectional hosting privileges to teams that didn't host first-weekend pods, which means, in effect, disqualifying teams that hosted pods from hosting sectionals. That completely throws seeding right out the window.
Quote from: kiko on March 04, 2018, 11:56:51 AMHaving seen all of the games, I would disagree. Wesleyan had a relative walkover on Friday night, while Aurora played their hearts out in their victory over WashU.Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
I assume this is also an expense thing, but why the Friday/Saturday contests (rather than Friday/Sunday)? Last night Neb Wesleyan was the beneficiary of an Aurora team that just had nothing left in the tank.
I apologize for being a newby, but this feels like a real competitive issue.
That is a missed class time thing.
Aurora and Nebraska Wesleyan had exactly the same number of days between games, so that is on Aurora moreso than the schedule.
Edit: in summary, What Bob Said...
Quote from: frodotwo on March 04, 2018, 12:51:33 PM
Unless I missed it somewhere else on the site:
Sweet 16 hosts:
Ramapo
Augustana
Platteville
Swarthmore
http://static.psbin.com/l/9/hi056co0mrg669/mbb-bracket-2018.pdf (http://static.psbin.com/l/9/hi056co0mrg669/mbb-bracket-2018.pdf)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 01:04:18 PM
Wow. Not Plattsburgh? No bid? Distance?
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 12:55:47 PMQuote from: kiko on March 04, 2018, 11:56:51 AMHaving seen all of the games, I would disagree. Wesleyan had a relative walkover on Friday night, while Aurora played their hearts out in their victory over WashU.Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
I assume this is also an expense thing, but why the Friday/Saturday contests (rather than Friday/Sunday)? Last night Neb Wesleyan was the beneficiary of an Aurora team that just had nothing left in the tank.
I apologize for being a newby, but this feels like a real competitive issue.
That is a missed class time thing.
Aurora and Nebraska Wesleyan had exactly the same number of days between games, so that is on Aurora moreso than the schedule.
Edit: in summary, What Bob Said...
I think Aurora was the better team, but yhey never had a chance in that game.
To not give adequate recovery time to account for game differential is an unfair advantage.
Plenty of time on Sunday to get home for class on Monday morning.
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 03:02:43 PM
Perhaps a bad choice of words, but my point was that — with both of their high scoring guards playing 40 minutes and cramping up on Friday night — it was obvious that their play and their shooting percentages were seriously impacted by the short turnaround.
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 12:55:47 PMQuote from: kiko on March 04, 2018, 11:56:51 AMHaving seen all of the games, I would disagree. Wesleyan had a relative walkover on Friday night, while Aurora played their hearts out in their victory over WashU.Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 10:48:18 AM
I assume this is also an expense thing, but why the Friday/Saturday contests (rather than Friday/Sunday)? Last night Neb Wesleyan was the beneficiary of an Aurora team that just had nothing left in the tank.
I apologize for being a newby, but this feels like a real competitive issue.
That is a missed class time thing.
Aurora and Nebraska Wesleyan had exactly the same number of days between games, so that is on Aurora moreso than the schedule.
Edit: in summary, What Bob Said...
I think Aurora was the better team, but yhey never had a chance in that game.
To not give adequate recovery time to account for game differential is an unfair advantage.
Plenty of time on Sunday to get home for class on Monday morning.
Quote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Quote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 04:09:15 PMQuote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan 🏀 ;D
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:02:30 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
However, I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think you're allowed to fly if it's under 500 miles even if you pay for it yourself. I remember Mount getting dinged for that on their first or second Stagg Bowl trip. They flew even thought it was under 500 miles - they chartered a team flight and a fan flight. Of course, maybe the rules changed.
Quote from: Riley056 on March 04, 2018, 10:57:06 AM
Another issue teams are having - media timeouts
I would assume 95% of leagues in D3 do not have it - I know the WIAC does but have not heard of others.
Might be a good idea to have them in conference tournaments to get a taste of it?
Quote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 04:50:31 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 04:09:15 PMQuote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan 🏀 ;D
He is talking about UW-Oshkosh.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2018/tournament-preview
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
If you really want to have a tournament to decide the best team is, shouldn't each of the games pick two teams on fairly equal footing? I think the 24 hour turnaround can put one team at a disadvantage over the other two Soli to the competitiveness of the prior around.
Both of the other divisions schedules seem to bear out that the NCAA knowledges this for those teams.
In this case, after sitting through all of the games, I think Nebraska Weslyan was the third best team in that pod, yet they are the one moving on.
P.S. I really could give a **** less what Augustana in their bracket. I am happy for them they are moving on.
Quote from: Mr. Mo on March 04, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
If you really want to have a tournament to decide the best team is, shouldn't each of the games pick two teams on fairly equal footing? I think the 24 hour turnaround can put one team at a disadvantage over the other two Soli to the competitiveness of the prior around.
Both of the other divisions schedules seem to bear out that the NCAA knowledges this for those teams.
In this case, after sitting through all of the games, I think Nebraska Weslyan was the third best team in that pod, yet they are the one moving on.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 10:15:01 PM
Txg,
You have to take into account that Nebraska Wesleyan may not have even gotten into the tournament had they not won the AQ. There are several leagues that play Friday/Saturday conference games during the regular season.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 11:59:46 AM
Over Saturday and Sunday our team debated and ranked the top 10 first-round upsets of the past 10 NCAA Tournaments. Here's how we ranked them:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/biggest-upsets-past-10-years/index
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 11:59:46 AM
Over Saturday and Sunday our team debated and ranked the top 10 first-round upsets of the past 10 NCAA Tournaments. Here's how we ranked them:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/biggest-upsets-past-10-years/index
Quote from: sac on March 05, 2018, 01:48:13 PMQuote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 11:59:46 AM
Over Saturday and Sunday our team debated and ranked the top 10 first-round upsets of the past 10 NCAA Tournaments. Here's how we ranked them:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/biggest-upsets-past-10-years/index
So if Webster had hypothetically beaten IWU in 2014(lost 71-70), where might that rank?
Quote from: txg on March 05, 2018, 09:49:14 AM
I can see how it might look like I was complaining about the NWU seeding if you look at my post in a vacuum. For clarification:
Declaring NWU the third best team in the pod after the results we saw is disrespectful. No other way to put it.
Is there a lack of respect for NWU in general? I'd say probably, but I have watched 0 minutes and 0 seconds of that team this year, so my opinion on that should be treated accordingly.
I have no problem at all with Friday-Saturday games. The poster I was responding to does.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 11:59:46 AM
Over Saturday and Sunday our team debated and ranked the top 10 first-round upsets of the past 10 NCAA Tournaments. Here's how we ranked them:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/biggest-upsets-past-10-years/index
Quote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 04:50:31 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 04:09:15 PMQuote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan 🏀 ;D
He is talking about UW-Oshkosh.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2018/tournament-preview
Quote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 02:04:19 PM
I believe most of the perceived problem results from an analysis of the non-conference portion of their schedule. Granted, some of their non-con opponents can't be considered major powers.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2018, 02:49:58 PMQuote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 11:59:46 AM
Over Saturday and Sunday our team debated and ranked the top 10 first-round upsets of the past 10 NCAA Tournaments. Here's how we ranked them:
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/biggest-upsets-past-10-years/index
You guys got the wrong Bears shooter in the Aurora @ Wash U game. It was Matt Nester who hit the game-tying trey for Wash U in the waning seconds, not Jack Nolan.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2018, 02:56:43 PM
I had a strong suspicion prior to this season that NebWes was going to be really good, based upon the fact that the Prairie Wolves had all five starters returning from an 18-8 team. However, without any proof at hand that I said that, I suppose that it probably looks like 20/20 hindsight to everybody else. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2018, 02:56:43 PM
I had a strong suspicion prior to this season that NebWes was going to be really good, based upon the fact that the Prairie Wolves had all five starters returning from an 18-8 team. However, without any proof at hand that I said that, I suppose that it probably looks like 20/20 hindsight to everybody else. ;)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 02:47:39 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 02:04:19 PM
I believe most of the perceived problem results from an analysis of the non-conference portion of their schedule. Granted, some of their non-con opponents can't be considered major powers.
Nov. 17 7:30 PM at North Central (Minn.) (7-18) • W, 122-84
Nov. 18 5:00 PM at Northwestern (Minn.) (14-13) • W, 78-67
Nov. 24 7:00 PM Iowa Wesleyan (5-20) • W, 117-54
Nov. 25 5:00 PM Bethany Lutheran (20-9) • W, 95-78
Dec. 4 8:00 PM Doane W, 107-80
Dec. 10 12:00 PM at Austin (4-21) • W, 92-67
Dec. 17 2:00 PM at Gallaudet (9-17) • W, 99-77
Dec. 18 7:00 PM at Marymount (8-17) • W, 87-46
Dec. 30 4:00 PM at Grinnell (13-11) • W, 121-103
Just to put the actual facts here instead of the poor attempt at spin. Good thing the UMAC champ is in here or there wouldn't be anything at all.
(Nobody really begrudges one NAIA opponent, AO.)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 03:23:32 PM
Every time I looked at NWU to consider voting for them, I got stuck on those early games, then combined with the untimely losses at just the wrong time during the season. As a backup voter, I didn't cast a ballot every week, but they didn't get onto mine until the last poll or so.
Quote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 03:40:48 PM
The fact of the matter is that it's virtually impossible for NWU to find quality non-con opponents without traveling excessive distances, and likely stressing the budget in the process.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 04:20:11 PM
"Some" of their non-conference opponents can't be considered major powers. Actually, all.
NWU is definitely in the final 16, and beating Aurora and Maryville definitely adds to the resume.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2018, 03:15:41 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2018, 02:56:43 PM
I had a strong suspicion prior to this season that NebWes was going to be really good, based upon the fact that the Prairie Wolves had all five starters returning from an 18-8 team. However, without any proof at hand that I said that, I suppose that it probably looks like 20/20 hindsight to everybody else. ;)
You weren't the only one to think they'd be pretty good this year. Simply based on returning players, I thought they would win the conference as well. But, winning your conference and gaining national respect can be two different things.
Also, all because there might be a lack of respect, doesn't mean we don't like them! Their opponents to date don't have me declaring them as "favorites". Yes, they blew out their two tournament opponents, but like their non-conference opponents, they hardly scream out "high caliber". Maryville and Aurora come from traditionally weak 1-bid conferences.
Quote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 03:19:43 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 05, 2018, 02:56:43 PM
I had a strong suspicion prior to this season that NebWes was going to be really good, based upon the fact that the Prairie Wolves had all five starters returning from an 18-8 team. However, without any proof at hand that I said that, I suppose that it probably looks like 20/20 hindsight to everybody else. ;)
I'll be your assist man on this one GS. I don't know exactly where you posted it, but I distinctly remember a pre-season entry in which you opined that NWU would be having a very good season. ;D
Quote from: WUPHF on March 05, 2018, 03:53:29 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 03:40:48 PM
The fact of the matter is that it's virtually impossible for NWU to find quality non-con opponents without traveling excessive distances, and likely stressing the budget in the process.
I have a little sympathy to their location in the Division III universe, but they did travel to the Twin Cities, Texas and the Washington DC area. There could be any number of reasons why the chose to play this schedule. But, they could certainly look to the Quad Cities, Bloomington, Platteville and so on for games as the work on subsequent seasons.
Quote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 02:16:02 PMQuote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 04:50:31 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 04:09:15 PMQuote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan 🏀 ;D
He is talking about UW-Oshkosh.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2018/tournament-preview
I'm aware.
Just a little facetious/tongue-in-cheek humor, and a reminder that there is more than one Titans team. 😏
Quote from: kiko on March 05, 2018, 05:24:33 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 05, 2018, 02:16:02 PMQuote from: Titan Q on March 04, 2018, 04:50:31 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 04, 2018, 04:09:15 PMQuote from: BBJones on March 04, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Why don't the Titans get any respect on this site? They were lampooned in the pre-tournament reviews as well.
Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan 🏀 ;D
He is talking about UW-Oshkosh.
http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2018/tournament-preview
I'm aware.
Just a little facetious/tongue-in-cheek humor, and a reminder that there is more than one Titans team. 😏
Of course there's more than one Titans team. Illinois Wesleyan has a JV team, and a woman's team. That's two more right there... ::)
Quote from: sac on March 05, 2018, 04:43:31 PMQuote from: Pat Coleman on March 05, 2018, 04:20:11 PM
"Some" of their non-conference opponents can't be considered major powers. Actually, all.
NWU is definitely in the final 16, and beating Aurora and Maryville definitely adds to the resume.
Words not often spoken
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2018, 05:52:48 PM
My (fake) proposal would be to have a conference play-off for some 1-bid leagues where the winners would get a bid into the NCAA tournament and open up more spots for Pool C teams, likely 3rd to 5th best teams in "Power Conferences." So, the NCAA comes up with a formula to determine bottom 10 conferences that receive AQs. Those 10 conferences are drawn into 5 games with the winners getting the 5 AQs, opening up 5 more Pool C bids.
For example, the NCAA actually picks 26 Pool C teams, knowing 5 spots will open up after the inter-conference playoffs. The bottom 10 conferences are drawn into 5 games...
NEAC v NAC
NECC v PAC
SKY v SAA
SCIAC v SCAC
SLIAC v AMCC
(note: I just randomly picked 10 1-bid conferences as an example)
Or you could have the bottom 1-bid conference winners play the bottom 10 Pool C teams in a play-in round to see who gets into the field of 64.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2018, 05:52:48 PM+1! I like the analysis of the conferences. I will keep this post in mind.
A little fun with numbers:
There are 21 Pool C teams.
Pool C teams make up 32.8% of the 64 team field.
Pool C teams are 23-12. I believe there were 7 games where Pool C teams played each other, so take away 7-7 if you will.
Of the 21 Pool C teams, NINE have made the Sweet 16. That's 56% of the remaining field.
5 Pool C teams went 1-1. LeTourneau, CNU, St. Olaf, Wesleyan and Wooster.
7 Pool C teams went 0-1. IWU, NCC, Albright, St. John's, NJCU, Marietta and Brockport.
There are 43 Pool A teams.
28 conferences were represented by only 1 team.
This makes up 43.75% of the field
1 bid leagues went 9-27.
Of these leagues, 22 of the 28 were represented by either their #1 seed or #2 seed team (1st or 2nd placed team).
1 bid leagues represented by seed and record:
16 #1 seeds: 7-15
6 #2 seeds: 2-6
2 #3 seeds: 0-2
3 #3 seeds: 0-3
1 #8 seed: 0-1
The only 1 bid league that has a representative in the Sweet 16 is...Nebraska Wesleyan.
20 of the 28 1-bid leagues went 0-1.
There were 15 leagues that had multiple bids.
The Pool A (AQ) teams of those multi-bid leagues went 16-9
Of those 15 multi-bid leagues, SIX Pool A teams from those leagues are in the Sweet 16: Augustana, MIT, Ramapo, JCU, Plattsburgh and Stevens Point.
Sul Ross St, Augsburg, Lebanon Valley, Whitworth, and Wash U were 0-1
Of the 15 multi-bid leagues, Lebanon Valley, Augsburg and Whitworth were NOT the #1 seeds in their conference tourneys but won to get the Pool A bid. Williams wasn't the #1 seed, but tied for 1st with four other NESCAC teams.
So, you could argue that conferences that have multi-bids are stronger conferences with only 1 bid. 15 of the 16 teams in the Sweet 16 are from conferences with more than one bid.
In soccer, 4 confederations have 1/2 bids, meaning one confederation plays another to earn an extra bid to the World Cup. For example, the 4th place CONCACAF played the 5th place team in Asia for the right to go to the World Cup. In addition, the 5th place team in South America played the winner of the Oceania Confederation for a spot in the World Cup.
So, my point is that, based on this season's findings, and probably a historical trend, many of these 1-bid leagues don't have the quality of some of the multi-bid leagues.
My (fake) proposal would be to have a conference play-off for some 1-bid leagues where the winners would get a bid into the NCAA tournament and open up more spots for Pool C teams, likely 3rd to 5th best teams in "Power Conferences." So, the NCAA comes up with a formula to determine bottom 10 conferences that receive AQs. Those 10 conferences are drawn into 5 games with the winners getting the 5 AQs, opening up 5 more Pool C bids.
For example, the NCAA actually picks 26 Pool C teams, knowing 5 spots will open up after the inter-conference playoffs. The bottom 10 conferences are drawn into 5 games...
NEAC v NAC
NECC v PAC
SKY v SAA
SCIAC v SCAC
SLIAC v AMCC
(note: I just randomly picked 10 1-bid conferences as an example)
Or you could have the bottom 1-bid conference winners play the bottom 10 Pool C teams in a play-in round to see who gets into the field of 64.
Quote from: smedindy on March 06, 2018, 01:47:38 AM
I hate the idea that any conference winner would be excluded from the tourney. Now, if a 1-bid league wants to enhance its chances, it may wish to not have a tourney so the champ gets in automatically.
I also abhor the fact that two of the 'play-in' games in the D1 tourney are 16-seeds. Let them in, and have the last eight at large teams battle it out.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 07:37:22 AM
Well, technically, the NCAA considers those "play-in" games as the 1st round. In fact, I thought they actually hated that term.
Anyway, we know they aren't going to expand it and have to play games on Tuesday. Besides, those one bid leagues created two of the best upsets of all time. I can't stop watching that Aurora/Wash U end of game sequence.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2018, 02:15:05 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 07:37:22 AM
Well, technically, the NCAA considers those "play-in" games as the 1st round. In fact, I thought they actually hated that term.
Anyway, we know they aren't going to expand it and have to play games on Tuesday. Besides, those one bid leagues created two of the best upsets of all time. I can't stop watching that Aurora/Wash U end of game sequence.
They went away from "first round" with these games I believe last season. It is back to "play-in" or something to that affect.
Personally, NO AQ team should be playing in these games. Absolutely none. They earned their way into the D1 dance by winning their AQ. They should not, then, be subjected to these "play-in" games as if they still have to earn their way in. It is ridiculous. Those games should be for at-large teams ONLY to prove they should be in the dance. The final four even if they are from the same conference. Suck it up. You didn't earn your way in and were nearly out of the tournament. Prove you belong by NOT having to beat a team who did win that AQ.
Quote from: hopefan on March 06, 2018, 02:55:42 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2018, 02:15:05 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 07:37:22 AM
Well, technically, the NCAA considers those "play-in" games as the 1st round. In fact, I thought they actually hated that term.
Anyway, we know they aren't going to expand it and have to play games on Tuesday. Besides, those one bid leagues created two of the best upsets of all time. I can't stop watching that Aurora/Wash U end of game sequence.
They went away from "first round" with these games I believe last season. It is back to "play-in" or something to that affect.
Personally, NO AQ team should be playing in these games. Absolutely none. They earned their way into the D1 dance by winning their AQ. They should not, then, be subjected to these "play-in" games as if they still have to earn their way in. It is ridiculous. Those games should be for at-large teams ONLY to prove they should be in the dance. The final four even if they are from the same conference. Suck it up. You didn't earn your way in and were nearly out of the tournament. Prove you belong by NOT having to beat a team who did win that AQ.
Yes BUT
If you won your conference, you made it to the tournament.... you're playing a tournament game whether it's called 1st round, playin, elimination chamber, ghost island or whatever... and if the SLIAC beat an Aurora, or a Green Mountain, or a Bethany, who cares whom they beat.. they won an NCAA Tournament game!!!! And right now afterXXX number of attempts, they still can't say that... and it's not like they're not trying!!!
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2018, 03:02:37 PMQuote from: hopefan on March 06, 2018, 02:55:42 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2018, 02:15:05 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 07:37:22 AM
Well, technically, the NCAA considers those "play-in" games as the 1st round. In fact, I thought they actually hated that term.
Anyway, we know they aren't going to expand it and have to play games on Tuesday. Besides, those one bid leagues created two of the best upsets of all time. I can't stop watching that Aurora/Wash U end of game sequence.
They went away from "first round" with these games I believe last season. It is back to "play-in" or something to that affect.
Personally, NO AQ team should be playing in these games. Absolutely none. They earned their way into the D1 dance by winning their AQ. They should not, then, be subjected to these "play-in" games as if they still have to earn their way in. It is ridiculous. Those games should be for at-large teams ONLY to prove they should be in the dance. The final four even if they are from the same conference. Suck it up. You didn't earn your way in and were nearly out of the tournament. Prove you belong by NOT having to beat a team who did win that AQ.
Yes BUT
If you won your conference, you made it to the tournament.... you're playing a tournament game whether it's called 1st round, playin, elimination chamber, ghost island or whatever... and if the SLIAC beat an Aurora, or a Green Mountain, or a Bethany, who cares whom they beat.. they won an NCAA Tournament game!!!! And right now afterXXX number of attempts, they still can't say that... and it's not like they're not trying!!!
The way those games are treated in D1, honestly, I don't think they feel like tournament games. Not the way they make them feel like you are still playing into the tournament and not featured as part of the bigger scope.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2018, 03:14:43 PM
... or Thursday.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
It's also never going to happen. We're capped at 64 no matter how many schools join d3.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 08:07:05 PMQuote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
It's also never going to happen. We're capped at 64 no matter how many schools join d3.
I didn't know that. Is that some kind of bylaw written with blood?
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 07, 2018, 07:34:44 AM
Every tournament in every sport at every level (except ......
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 07, 2018, 07:34:44 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2018, 08:07:05 PMQuote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
It's also never going to happen. We're capped at 64 no matter how many schools join d3.
I didn't know that. Is that some kind of bylaw written with blood?
Yep. The NCAA doesn't want to spend money. Every tournament in every sport at every level (except the D1 men's tournament, where all the money is made) I believe was formally capped at 64. Obviously, they could go back and vote to change that, but I doubt it'll ever happen. It's all about cost control.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 01:03:26 PMI do not recall the early rounds being paid by the university in the early 2000's when the access ratio was 1:7.5.
The first rounds covered by the schools was also something that happened in the late 90s when the division initially went to a 64-team field. That first round was paid for by the schools. It didn't last long, but I don't have any memory as to why - could have been more about all sports having the opportunity and it getting a little out of control. That may have been where the 6.5:1 system came to be.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
The first rounds covered by the schools was also something that happened in the late 90s when the division initially went to a 64-team field. That first round was paid for by the schools. It didn't last long, but I don't have any memory as to why - could have been more about all sports having the opportunity and it getting a little out of control. That may have been where the 6.5:1 system came to be.
Quote from: fantastic50 on March 07, 2018, 01:23:10 PM
If midweek preliminary games were going to be added, they would need to be within a much shorter travel radius than 500 miles. In D-I, nobody bats an eye at basketball players on elite teams missing classes for most of March, with four consecutive weekends of travel, starting on Wednesday, in many cases. In D-III, missing Tuesday & Wednesday classes for a Tuesday night preliminary round 400 miles away, followed by Thursday afternoon & Friday somewhere else for the winners, isn't going to cut it.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2018, 01:13:37 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
The first rounds covered by the schools was also something that happened in the late 90s when the division initially went to a 64-team field. That first round was paid for by the schools. It didn't last long, but I don't have any memory as to why - could have been more about all sports having the opportunity and it getting a little out of control. That may have been where the 6.5:1 system came to be.
Well, that and the fact that, in a 64-team field, the schools were essentially paying for the first two rounds (played Friday/Saturday, same as the current model), rather than just one, with the NCAA carrying the full tab for the second and third weekends. That's why I used the 40-team-field example; it more closely mirrors what the midweek play-in format would look like in this proposed scenario.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Yeah. That is a tough sell. Maybe play Tuesday and Friday? I do recall Lawrence fans complaining about the quick turnaround when they had to travel to Buena Vista (it was an IIAC team), on Thursday and then travel to Point for a Saturday game, and that had nothing to do with missed class time.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 07, 2018, 01:53:44 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2018, 01:13:37 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
The first rounds covered by the schools was also something that happened in the late 90s when the division initially went to a 64-team field. That first round was paid for by the schools. It didn't last long, but I don't have any memory as to why - could have been more about all sports having the opportunity and it getting a little out of control. That may have been where the 6.5:1 system came to be.
Well, that and the fact that, in a 64-team field, the schools were essentially paying for the first two rounds (played Friday/Saturday, same as the current model), rather than just one, with the NCAA carrying the full tab for the second and third weekends. That's why I used the 40-team-field example; it more closely mirrors what the midweek play-in format would look like in this proposed scenario.
The 64-team play-in to the 32-team bracket, as was the mid-1990s format, was Thursday-Saturday, so the NCAA did pick up the second round on the first weekend.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Yeah. That is a tough sell. Maybe play Tuesday and Friday? I do recall Lawrence fans complaining about the quick turnaround when they had to travel to Buena Vista (it was an IIAC team), on Thursday and then travel to Point for a Saturday game, and that had nothing to do with missed class time.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMFor one, I think it's a joke that the conference tourney decides who get the AQ. I suppose it's the conference's decision, but I'm sure 1.) Berry loves the idea and 2.) Centre hates the idea.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMBut, who's to say all because you win your conference tournament, you "deserve" to be in?
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMI suppose it's the conference's decision
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMI think we can all agree if you put in a middle-of-the-table team from a "power conference" they'll do pretty well in a lower level conference year in and year out. This is no disrespect to those leagues, it's just fact.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMInstead of the bottom 1-bid conference teams playing each other or the bottom Pool C bid teams playing each other, why not have the bottom 4 from each group play each other. I find it amusing that some have said the Pool C teams need to "prove themselves" when this year's records for Pool C teams have proved they belong.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PM
I love the underdogs. It makes the tourney great. But with over 400 teams at 43 AQs, that only leaves 21 Pool Cs. I think it proves that the best teams aren't in the tourney and though that will never be the case, I think things can change to balance out the haves and have-nots while not completely eliminating the have-nots.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 03:06:06 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Yeah. That is a tough sell. Maybe play Tuesday and Friday? I do recall Lawrence fans complaining about the quick turnaround when they had to travel to Buena Vista (it was an IIAC team), on Thursday and then travel to Point for a Saturday game, and that had nothing to do with missed class time.
"You WANT to play that Thursday game. You NEED to play that Thursday game. You have to show you are capable of winning an NCAA Tournament game!"
One of the better Hoopsville Selection Sunday discussions to be honest. While we didn't do video at the time, I vividly remember the setting and those involved and why the quote came to be. :)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2018, 04:28:25 PM
If this year's field had been expanded to 68 under my proposal, this is how that Tuesday play-in night would've looked, using the final regional rankings plus Drew Pasteur's graph on page 515 of the Pool C room to select the four extra Pool C's (East Texas Baptist, Hobart, Loras, and Keene State):
Tuesday, February 27
Keene State @ Springfield
Hobart @ Brockport
East Texas Baptist @ LeTourneau
Loras @ Illinois Wesleyan
Friday, March 2
Keene State/Springfield winner vs. Albright
Hobart/Brockport winner vs. MIT
East Texas Baptist/LeTourneau winner vs. Hanover
Loras/Illinois Wesleyan winner vs. Wooster
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 04:32:41 PMI would also say, I would hope if they could they would avoid regional games... maybe Hobart is playing Springfield.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2018, 04:39:41 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2018, 04:32:41 PMI would also say, I would hope if they could they would avoid regional games... maybe Hobart is playing Springfield.
I was thinking more in terms of the fact that it would've been scheduled for a Tuesday night, thus making travel time on a school night an important factor. Hobart to Brockport is a little over an hour's drive; Hobart to Springfield is four and a half hours. Keene State to Springfield is a little under two hours; Keene State to Brockport is almost six hours.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 02:05:18 PMBack to the old comments...
I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation because when I posted my "fun with numbers" post, I didn't think I'd get this much reaction.
My first thought was to have the bottom 8-10 1-bid conferences play each other to open up more "deserving" Pool C teams, for example, Amherst, River Falls, OWU etc. Others countered with having those extra Pool C teams play each other to "prove they deserve" to be in the tourney.
I understand the outcry to have 1-bid conference teams NOT play in these so-called play-in games because they won their conference tourney and "deserve" to be in the NCAAs. For one, I think it's a joke that the conference tourney decides who get the AQ. I suppose it's the conference's decision, but I'm sure 1.) Berry loves the idea and 2.) Centre hates the idea. But, who's to say all because you win your conference tournament, you "deserve" to be in? I think we can all agree if you put in a middle-of-the-table team from a "power conference" they'll do pretty well in a lower level conference year in and year out. This is no disrespect to those leagues, it's just fact.
Instead of the bottom 1-bid conference teams playing each other or the bottom Pool C bid teams playing each other, why not have the bottom 4 from each group play each other. I find it amusing that some have said the Pool C teams need to "prove themselves" when this year's records for Pool C teams have proved they belong.
As initially stated, Pool C teams are 23-12 while 1-bid conference teams are just 9-27. Taking a closer look...
Pool C teams are 11-2 against 1-bid conference teams. [Yeah, let's look at those 1-bid conferences... there is a lot of "chopped liver" in that group /sarcasm off]
LeTourneau beat Hanover HCAC
CNU beat Lancaster Bible NEAC
Franklin & Marshall beat Emory and Henry ODAC
Swarthmore beat NEC NAC
Hamilton beat Nazareth E8
Wesleyan beat S. Vermont NECC
Springfield beat Cabrini CSAC, but in the 2nd round
Whitman beat Schreiner SCAC and then CMS SCIAC, but in the 2nd round
Emory beat Berry SAA
Platteville beat Monmouth MWC
On the other hand:
Bethany Lutheran UMAC upset St. John's and Union LL topped NJCU.
I also pointed out that NINE of those 21 Pool C teams advanced to the Sweet 16 (Swarthmore, F&M, Hamilton, Middlebury, Springfield, Whitman, Emory, Oshkosh and Platteville) while on ONE of the 28 1-bid leagues had a team advance (Nebraska Wesleyan, and they beat 1-bid league teams Maryville and Aurora).
And, of the 15 leagues that had more than one bid, SIX advanced their AQ, Augustana, MIT, Ramapo, JCU, Plattsburgh and Stevens Point.
I love the underdogs. It makes the tourney great. But with over 400 teams at 43 AQs, that only leaves 21 Pool Cs. I think it proves that the best teams aren't in the tourney and though that will never be the case, I think things can change to balance out the haves and have-nots while not completely eliminating the have-nots.
Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:14:34 AMQuote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 04, 2018, 09:10:07 AMQuote from: Onward on, John Carroll on March 04, 2018, 09:02:30 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 04, 2018, 08:30:05 AMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 04, 2018, 08:17:18 AM
Is there any leniency on the 500 mile rule? University Heights to Rock Island is 507 on Google maps (I know that's not what the NCAA uses). I just think they'd save a plane full of money by making JCU bus an extra 15 minutes.
No, there isn't. The 500-mile-radius rule is arbitrary -- there's no reason why the NCAA couldn't have set the radius at 510 miles, or 490 miles, when it made the rule -- but there are a lot of rules in life that are arbitrary. The point, however, is to set the marker and keep it there, so that everybody understands it and knows well ahead of time what the rule is. If you make exceptions here and there for the sake of a few miles, then the rule ceases to have any meaning. It stops being a rule altogether, and then you have the anarchy of a team complaining, "Hey, you let Team A fly last year when it was 480 miles from the site ... well, we're only 479 miles from our site, so why do we have to take the bus?"
There's no reason why JCU has to fly. Blue Streaks head coach Pete Moran, or the JCU athletic director, could opt to bus his team to Rock Island instead. It's certainly not unheard-of for teams to take the busing option even when the NCAA offers the team the opportunity to fly on the NCAA's dime. If I remember correctly, Grey Giovanine has elected to have Augustana bus to Salem, for example, for Augie's two Final Four trips over the past three seasons.
However, I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think you're allowed to fly if it's under 500 miles even if you pay for it yourself. I remember Mount getting dinged for that on their first or second Stagg Bowl trip. They flew even thought it was under 500 miles - they chartered a team flight and a fan flight. Of course, maybe the rules changed.
You can pay for your own flight whenever you want, at least in basketball. The NCAA doesn't care if you spend your own money. They might not reimburse you for anything if you fly (like they might not give you the bus equivalent), but you can travel however you want if its on your own dime.
Thanks Ryan, for the clarification. It's been 25 years. Maybe a I remember it wrong. That's said, I doubt Carroll will pony up for a charter flight so Coach Moran is going to have start figuring out what he wants to do.
Quote from: kiko on March 07, 2018, 11:27:02 PM
So, two random thoughts on this topic. And before I tee them up, I should note for the record that I do not support expanding the tournament beyond its current size. If you do so, though:
- If you expand from 64 to 68, as noted above, you may not be able to set up a bracket so the play-in games are the last eight teams in the field from a school night/travel time standpoint. Given how much more restricted access to the tournament is in D3 versus in D1, one potential solution for this is to go to 72 rather than 68 teams. I don't know that there is a dramatic difference between Pool C #25 and Pool C #29, so you're not necessarily watering down the field, but what you are doing is giving yourself more options to make this work geographically.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Yeah. That is a tough sell. Maybe play Tuesday and Friday? I do recall Lawrence fans complaining about the quick turnaround when they had to travel toBuena Vista (it was an IIAC team), on Thursday and then travel to Point for a Saturday game, and that had nothing to do with missed class time.
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 08, 2018, 09:33:30 AM
Something I'd like to see is for conferences to diminish their conference tournaments. It's a great story to have some low seeded team get hot and make their way in but it diminishes the value of the regular season. If you know your conference is a one bid league then why bother playing the regular season if all that matters is a few games in February?
I'd be all for the UAA model of no tournament but if you had to have one, do something like:
a) 2 vs 5 and 3 vs 4 then the winner of that pod plays the 1 in the final
b) 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and if the winner is someone other than the 1 they have to play the 1 seed
Quote from: fantastic50 on March 08, 2018, 09:09:54 AM
This is all fun to dream about, but between funding, logistical issues with travel, and missed class time, I don't think expansion beyond 64 stands a realistic chance of getting approved at the NCAA level.
Quote from: sac on March 08, 2018, 11:41:02 AM
It would be great to play a 30 game regular season too.
Quote from: smedindy on March 08, 2018, 12:41:34 PMNo decision has ever been made with SID's in mind.Quote from: sac on March 08, 2018, 11:41:02 AM
It would be great to play a 30 game regular season too.
Like the NAIA? No thanks.
I know overworked SIDs who would not approve of hoops intruding in on the fall sports cavalcade. (Here, it's football, CC, women's soccer, volleyball, and rugby - the women with XV's and the men with 7's - when exhibition hoops starts we have to almost clone people).
Quote from: lmitzel on March 08, 2018, 10:58:14 AMQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 08, 2018, 09:33:30 AM
Something I'd like to see is for conferences to diminish their conference tournaments. It's a great story to have some low seeded team get hot and make their way in but it diminishes the value of the regular season. If you know your conference is a one bid league then why bother playing the regular season if all that matters is a few games in February?
I'd be all for the UAA model of no tournament but if you had to have one, do something like:
a) 2 vs 5 and 3 vs 4 then the winner of that pod plays the 1 in the final
b) 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and if the winner is someone other than the 1 they have to play the 1 seed
This topic came up in the CCIW board a couple months ago when the conference announced it was expanding its conference tournament from four to six. I'm actually a fan of the expansion. With it for next year I think the number came out to roughly 62 percent of teams nationwide play in their conference's tournament (factoring in that the UAA doesn't have one).
I can see the argument that it diminishes the regular season (which is why I'm glad that most conferences don't just invite everyone to the postseason tournament) but you're arguably adding more value to the regular season in that more games will matter in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah, the conference tournaments can boost team's Pool C chances if they lose, or increase the likelihood of hosting a weekend or two in the NCAA's, but those extra 1-3 games don't count any more than a Tip Off Tournament game in November or a first matchup between rivals in January.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 08, 2018, 08:48:31 PMQuote from: lmitzel on March 08, 2018, 10:58:14 AMQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 08, 2018, 09:33:30 AM
Something I'd like to see is for conferences to diminish their conference tournaments. It's a great story to have some low seeded team get hot and make their way in but it diminishes the value of the regular season. If you know your conference is a one bid league then why bother playing the regular season if all that matters is a few games in February?
I'd be all for the UAA model of no tournament but if you had to have one, do something like:
a) 2 vs 5 and 3 vs 4 then the winner of that pod plays the 1 in the final
b) 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and if the winner is someone other than the 1 they have to play the 1 seed
This topic came up in the CCIW board a couple months ago when the conference announced it was expanding its conference tournament from four to six. I'm actually a fan of the expansion. With it for next year I think the number came out to roughly 62 percent of teams nationwide play in their conference's tournament (factoring in that the UAA doesn't have one).
I can see the argument that it diminishes the regular season (which is why I'm glad that most conferences don't just invite everyone to the postseason tournament) but you're arguably adding more value to the regular season in that more games will matter in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah, the conference tournaments can boost team's Pool C chances if they lose, or increase the likelihood of hosting a weekend or two in the NCAA's, but those extra 1-3 games don't count any more than a Tip Off Tournament game in November or a first matchup between rivals in January.
This is my take. It's really not much fun to play games when you're eliminated. If everyone's invited to the conference tournament then everybody has something to play for in every single game. Even if it's not for seeding, it's to get better and to keep working to grow as a team.
I like the idea that a team's season doesn't have to end until they lose a tournament game of some sort. If I was the Sports Czar, I'd stipulate that conferences only get an AQ if they award it to their tournament champion with every conference member receiving a invite.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 08, 2018, 08:48:31 PMQuote from: lmitzel on March 08, 2018, 10:58:14 AMQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 08, 2018, 09:33:30 AM
Something I'd like to see is for conferences to diminish their conference tournaments. It's a great story to have some low seeded team get hot and make their way in but it diminishes the value of the regular season. If you know your conference is a one bid league then why bother playing the regular season if all that matters is a few games in February?
I'd be all for the UAA model of no tournament but if you had to have one, do something like:
a) 2 vs 5 and 3 vs 4 then the winner of that pod plays the 1 in the final
b) 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and if the winner is someone other than the 1 they have to play the 1 seed
This topic came up in the CCIW board a couple months ago when the conference announced it was expanding its conference tournament from four to six. I'm actually a fan of the expansion. With it for next year I think the number came out to roughly 62 percent of teams nationwide play in their conference's tournament (factoring in that the UAA doesn't have one).
I can see the argument that it diminishes the regular season (which is why I'm glad that most conferences don't just invite everyone to the postseason tournament) but you're arguably adding more value to the regular season in that more games will matter in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah, the conference tournaments can boost team's Pool C chances if they lose, or increase the likelihood of hosting a weekend or two in the NCAA's, but those extra 1-3 games don't count any more than a Tip Off Tournament game in November or a first matchup between rivals in January.
This is my take. It's really not much fun to play games when you're eliminated. If everyone's invited to the conference tournament then everybody has something to play for in every single game. Even if it's not for seeding, it's to get better and to keep working to grow as a team.
I like the idea that a team's season doesn't have to end until they lose a tournament game of some sort. If I was the Sports Czar, I'd stipulate that conferences only get an AQ if they award it to their tournament champion with every conference member receiving a invite.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 08, 2018, 10:34:11 PM
Undecided if I agree or disagree. Unless some provision is made to benefit the top teams in the regular season, it seems to me this makes the entire regular season just a 'preseason', and the entire 'season' is 3 (or however many) games in February.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 08, 2018, 10:34:11 PM
You're a stats guy. Do you really want a small sample to potentially outweigh a much larger sample? ::)
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 08, 2018, 11:01:02 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 08, 2018, 10:34:11 PM
Undecided if I agree or disagree. Unless some provision is made to benefit the top teams in the regular season, it seems to me this makes the entire regular season just a 'preseason', and the entire 'season' is 3 (or however many) games in February.
The conference championship is a worthy goal on its own, no? There are over 400 teams in Division III. Only one will win the national championship.
Sure, give a bye or a double bye, whatever. I just like the idea of a Berry getting to play for that AQ.Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 08, 2018, 10:34:11 PM
You're a stats guy. Do you really want a small sample to potentially outweigh a much larger sample? ::)
The national tournament (and conference tournaments, for that matter) have never been about determining the best teams. They're about crowning a champion. In this case I like small sample size. Small sample size means fun things can happen!
Quote from: Just Bill on March 09, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
I've always thought the best size for a Division III conference tournament is half the membership (rounded up to make an even number). I think that keeps enough teams in the race and competitive all the way to the end of the season. I don't like putting everyone into the conference tournament at this level, because I think you ultimately hurt the top seeds who might be competing nationally for at-large bids, and there's not nearly as many at-large bids available as in D-I.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 09, 2018, 01:37:50 PM
Based on the poll, looks like everyone is pretty confident that Augustana will advance. The other 42 votes are spread evenly, well exactly, amongst the other 3 pods not going the hosts' way. 14 votes apiece.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 09, 2018, 12:39:29 PMQuote from: Just Bill on March 09, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
I've always thought the best size for a Division III conference tournament is half the membership (rounded up to make an even number). I think that keeps enough teams in the race and competitive all the way to the end of the season. I don't like putting everyone into the conference tournament at this level, because I think you ultimately hurt the top seeds who might be competing nationally for at-large bids, and there's not nearly as many at-large bids available as in D-I.
I think I would be in favor of limiting the criteria to the 25 game regular season schedule. Conference tournaments can be for the AQ. Your regular season is to establish your Pool C bona fides.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
While we are talking about changes, I do think they should start the tournament play around 2:00 or 3:00 ET to stagger the action, but I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
While we are talking about changes, I do think they should start the tournament play around 2:00 or 3:00 ET to stagger the action, but I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 09, 2018, 02:58:58 PMQuote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
While we are talking about changes, I do think they should start the tournament play around 2:00 or 3:00 ET to stagger the action, but I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
Why?
Quote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 03:21:20 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 09, 2018, 02:58:58 PMQuote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
While we are talking about changes, I do think they should start the tournament play around 2:00 or 3:00 ET to stagger the action, but I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
Why?
Why should they start the games around 2:00-3:00?
So I can watch more live action games.
Quote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 03:20:20 PMQuote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
While we are talking about changes, I do think they should start the tournament play around 2:00 or 3:00 ET to stagger the action, but I am not going to hold my breath on that one.
Also, beginning play earlier in the day would allow fans of a team that played and lost the 2nd game of a doubleheader and had, lets say, a 3 or 4 hour drive home, to not have to drive late into the night and not get home until 11:00-midnight, or even later if they stopped to eat. This could apply to either a conference or national tourney.
Sure, people could always stay over, but an earlier start would both allow for the possibility of not having to shell out $100 or more for a hotel 🏫, and would help with the issue of safety in not having to be driving late into the night 😴. And, if there is only one game that night (usually Sat), start it at 6:00 instead of 7:30.
Initially, this might seem silly, but think about it. 🤔
Quote from: irapthor on March 09, 2018, 04:59:52 PM
SWEET 16/SECTIONAL SEMIFINAL PREDICTIONS
Ramapo def. F&M
Middlebury def. MIT
Emory def. UW-Oshkosh
John Carroll def. Augustana
Whitman def. UW-Stevens Point
Nebraska Wesleyan def. UW-Platteville
Plattsburgh State def. Swarthmore
Hamilton def. Springfield
Quote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 05:33:03 PMQuote from: irapthor on March 09, 2018, 04:59:52 PM
SWEET 16/SECTIONAL SEMIFINAL PREDICTIONS
Ramapo def. F&M
Middlebury def. MIT
Emory def. UW-Oshkosh
John Carroll def. Augustana
Whitman def. UW-Stevens Point
Nebraska Wesleyan def. UW-Platteville
Plattsburgh State def. Swarthmore
Hamilton def. Springfield
Irapthor,
Kudos for your willingness to go public with your picks. Mine are in bold.
Hope all the games are close/interesting/fun to watch. 🏀 🙂
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 09, 2018, 07:34:40 PM
There's always that discussion about when you're up 3 do you foul or not. With less than 4 seconds left in regulation I was thinking they should if he missed the FT because a second or two would run off and they couldn't tie it at the line. Sure enough he missed, they didn't foul, and Springfield hit the 3 to tie.
Exciting down to the wire finishes so far.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 10:31:32 PM
Nate Schimonitz banked in a runner with three seconds left to give Nebraska Wesleyan a 79-78 nailbiter win, as UW-Platteville becomes the first home team to lose tonight.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 10:31:32 PM
Nate Schimonitz banked in a runner with three seconds left to give Nebraska Wesleyan a 79-78 nailbiter win, as UW-Platteville becomes the first home team to lose tonight.
Quote from: irapthor on March 09, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
Also, don't sleep on Plattsburgh....saw them in person and they are REALLY GOOD....Patron is a special player...and a good drink
Quote from: dunkin3117 on March 09, 2018, 10:51:53 PM
A charter member? Massey has ranked the IIAC as a top 4 conference the last 2 years. Takes all human bias out of the equation. Currently 2nd best league in the country behind the WIAC.
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 10:56:58 PM
What is the NCAA rule on waiting period when changing from NAIA to D3?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 10:53:59 PM
Wait... a computer knows how to rank and should be trusted? I think we know how this has worked out in the past... to the end that Minor League football got rid of it a few years back.
Quote from: dunkin3117 on March 09, 2018, 10:51:53 PM
A charter member? Massey has ranked the IIAC as a top 4 conference the last 2 years. Takes all human bias out of the equation. Currently 2nd best league in the country behind the WIAC.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 09, 2018, 10:58:30 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 10:53:59 PM
Wait... a computer knows how to rank and should be trusted? I think we know how this has worked out in the past... to the end that Minor League football got rid of it a few years back.
The computer always knows how to rank and should always be trusted...when the computer thinks my team is the best.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 10:53:05 PMQuote from: irapthor on March 09, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
Also, don't sleep on Plattsburgh....saw them in person and they are REALLY GOOD....Patron is a special player...and a good drink
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26tP3KaWsDnT47VMk/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:05:32 PM
Am I wrong questioning players who came to a school because of a scholarship and are still there although change to D3?
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2018, 11:03:23 PMQuote from: dunkin3117 on March 09, 2018, 10:51:53 PM
A charter member? Massey has ranked the IIAC as a top 4 conference the last 2 years. Takes all human bias out of the equation. Currently 2nd best league in the country behind the WIAC.
This hoary cliche' is totally ludicrous. Computers do exactly what they are PROGRAMMED (by, you know, humans) to do. As a considerably more accurate cliche' puts it "Garbage in, garbage out". The IIAC MIGHT be a (lower) top ten conference (though teens seems more accurate) - #2 is to laugh! :o
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:05:32 PM
Am I wrong questioning players who came to a school because of a scholarship and are still there although change to D3?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:07:41 PM
If you're pointing a finger at Nebraska Wesleyan, you're pointing it in the wrong direction. In spite of the fact that NebWes was in an NAIA league until two years ago, the school held dual membership in NAIA and NCAA-D3 and did not give out athletic scholarships.
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
Well deserved for NWU regardless. Was curious on how the NCAA handled it. Good policy on their end - can't believe just said that!
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
How does the split role end up working out?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
Quote from: BobbyO on March 09, 2018, 11:23:06 PM
Interesting thing for Augustana next game. If Augie wins they beat every team this season that they lost to. Oshkosh beat them early at Oshkosh in double overtime. This game may be the game that makes a National Champ. Two years ago St. Thomas beat Augie in the elite eight and then went on to win it all.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
Quote from: BobbyO on March 09, 2018, 11:23:06 PM
Interesting thing for Augustana next game. If Augie wins they beat every team this season that they lost to. Oshkosh beat them early at Oshkosh in double overtime. This game may be the game that makes a National Champ. Two years ago St. Thomas beat Augie in the elite eight and then went on to win it all.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 09, 2018, 11:28:54 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
I am not the historian of D3 hoops quite like Greg (yet), but isn't the NJAC previously known for early bounces in the NCAA tourney as well?
I am extremely bias, but St. Thomas can probably bring the MIAC in the top 10 by themselves, not to mention Gustavus had a great run in most of the 2000s
Quote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
How does the split role end up working out?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:29:31 PM
Nebraska Wesleyan has a long and storied history as a D3 program. The Prairie Wolves (né the Plainsmen) have been to the Final Four on four previous occasions, finishing second once and third three times. They currently sport a 27-16 (.628) all-time record in the D3 tourney as of tonight's win, which is not too shabby.Quote from: BobbyO on March 09, 2018, 11:23:06 PM
Interesting thing for Augustana next game. If Augie wins they beat every team this season that they lost to. Oshkosh beat them early at Oshkosh in double overtime. This game may be the game that makes a National Champ. Two years ago St. Thomas beat Augie in the elite eight and then went on to win it all.
I know that you're an Augie fan, but, as far as this "may be the game that makes a national champ" business is concerned, I wouldn't go there if I were you. The Whitman vs. Nebraska Wesleyan winner is going to have a lot to say about who cuts down the net in Salem -- and the most impressive performance I saw tonight was by Swarthmore.
Quote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 11:33:07 PMQuote from: Riley056 on March 09, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
How does the split role end up working out?
For many years Nebraska Wesleyan was a member of an NAIA conference in which every single school in the conference other than NWU gave athletic scholarships. While they regularly competed with scholarship schools while holding dual NAIA/NCAA membership, they always adhered to the NCAA philosophy regarding athletic scholarships, and never awarded them. Their thinking on this subject was one of the reasons they ultimately decided to rescind their NAIA affiliation, and attach solely to the NCAA.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:24:11 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
So back to my comment about the Commonwealth... the SUNYAC has been very competitive from top to bottom most years. They do produce pretty good teams. Plattsburgh didn't look great tonight, but they are a better team than tonight showed. Plattsburgh also stopped one of the best offensive tandems in New England in the first round.
But again, I think the SUNYAC has for years had a very good conference from top to bottom. The top isn't the only metric I use (as I have shown). Sometimes just getting through conference play because of how good the bottom is is something to be considered. The SUNYAC hasn't been as strong the last few years and that's why I think it may not belong in the top ten now, but I feel it has been part of the conversation.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2018, 11:27:05 PM
It occurred to me this evening that the Elite Eight contains only FIVE ranked teams (from the last pre-tourney poll): #1, 9,14,19,24. Did the pollsters have an off-week? Have there been that many legitimate upsets? Has parity gone stark-raving mad in D3? I lean most heavily on the last option, but see some of each at work. Comments?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:35:02 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:24:11 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
So back to my comment about the Commonwealth... the SUNYAC has been very competitive from top to bottom most years. They do produce pretty good teams. Plattsburgh didn't look great tonight, but they are a better team than tonight showed. Plattsburgh also stopped one of the best offensive tandems in New England in the first round.
But again, I think the SUNYAC has for years had a very good conference from top to bottom. The top isn't the only metric I use (as I have shown). Sometimes just getting through conference play because of how good the bottom is is something to be considered. The SUNYAC hasn't been as strong the last few years and that's why I think it may not belong in the top ten now, but I feel it has been part of the conversation.
I agree with you to a certain degree, inasmuch as conferences are best measured top to bottom when sorted out as an aggregate whole within D3. That's always been my knock on the MIAA and the NCAC -- they were too top-heavy over long stretches of time, too plagued by lightweight, never-competitive programs at the bottom. The SUNYAC has great balance; it's much like the OAC in that regard, although I think that the OAC's pedigree is better.
But if you're going to be in the upper echelon -- i.e., the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, and UAA -- you've got to produce in March. And the SUNYAC decidedly doesn't produce in March.
Quote from: 4samuy on March 09, 2018, 11:36:46 PM
Last year Augie made it to the final game without playing a home game in the tournament.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:32:17 PM
My thinking in the NJAC is the same as the SUNYAC... it isn't necessarily about the NCAA tournament. Yes. Struggled to get out of the first weekend (thankfully, Ramapo cleared it; may prove that when they get out NJAC teams are dangerous). However, they are also a damn competitive conference. There are no easy nights and there are no undefeated seasons usually.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:37:40 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:35:02 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:24:11 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
So back to my comment about the Commonwealth... the SUNYAC has been very competitive from top to bottom most years. They do produce pretty good teams. Plattsburgh didn't look great tonight, but they are a better team than tonight showed. Plattsburgh also stopped one of the best offensive tandems in New England in the first round.
But again, I think the SUNYAC has for years had a very good conference from top to bottom. The top isn't the only metric I use (as I have shown). Sometimes just getting through conference play because of how good the bottom is is something to be considered. The SUNYAC hasn't been as strong the last few years and that's why I think it may not belong in the top ten now, but I feel it has been part of the conversation.
I agree with you to a certain degree, inasmuch as conferences are best measured top to bottom when sorted out as an aggregate whole within D3. That's always been my knock on the MIAA and the NCAC -- they were too top-heavy over long stretches of time, too plagued by lightweight, never-competitive programs at the bottom. The SUNYAC has great balance; it's much like the OAC in that regard, although I think that the OAC's pedigree is better.
But if you're going to be in the upper echelon -- i.e., the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, and UAA -- you've got to produce in March. And the SUNYAC decidedly doesn't produce in March.
Reread my stuff... I talk about the top five - that is the upper echelon... and my thoughts on Top 5. The convo started on IIAC being ranked by the computers number two. My point was to say, no... they aren't in the upper echelon, but they are certainly in the convo for top ten.
I don't disagree with you... and I never said the SUNYAC was in my top five nor the upper echelon.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:39:21 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:32:17 PM
My thinking in the NJAC is the same as the SUNYAC... it isn't necessarily about the NCAA tournament. Yes. Struggled to get out of the first weekend (thankfully, Ramapo cleared it; may prove that when they get out NJAC teams are dangerous). However, they are also a damn competitive conference. There are no easy nights and there are no undefeated seasons usually.
Once upon a time, though, the NJAC was D3's Beast of the East. Ramapo, Rowan, William Paterson, Stockton ... even TCNJ in '89 ... there's a lot of Final Four trophies in New Jersey trophy cases.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:42:18 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:37:40 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:35:02 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:24:11 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 11:21:10 PMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:10:45 PMOthers that are certainly in the top ten conversation now include (no particular order; not mentioning IIAC just as an exercise - more than ten mentioned FYI): UAA, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, NCAC, OAC, ODAC, NEWMAC, Commonweatlh, Centennial, NJAC, SUNYAC.
SUNYAC? The SUNYAC hasn't been to the Elite Eight since Brockport got there eleven years ago, and Ronald Reagan was still president the last time that a SUNYAC team made the Final Four. When I think of the SUNYAC I think of March cannon fodder for the NESCAC and Rochester. (Sorry, magicman. :-\ As someone born and bred in upstate New York I wish it wasn't so, but it is.)
So back to my comment about the Commonwealth... the SUNYAC has been very competitive from top to bottom most years. They do produce pretty good teams. Plattsburgh didn't look great tonight, but they are a better team than tonight showed. Plattsburgh also stopped one of the best offensive tandems in New England in the first round.
But again, I think the SUNYAC has for years had a very good conference from top to bottom. The top isn't the only metric I use (as I have shown). Sometimes just getting through conference play because of how good the bottom is is something to be considered. The SUNYAC hasn't been as strong the last few years and that's why I think it may not belong in the top ten now, but I feel it has been part of the conversation.
I agree with you to a certain degree, inasmuch as conferences are best measured top to bottom when sorted out as an aggregate whole within D3. That's always been my knock on the MIAA and the NCAC -- they were too top-heavy over long stretches of time, too plagued by lightweight, never-competitive programs at the bottom. The SUNYAC has great balance; it's much like the OAC in that regard, although I think that the OAC's pedigree is better.
But if you're going to be in the upper echelon -- i.e., the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, and UAA -- you've got to produce in March. And the SUNYAC decidedly doesn't produce in March.
Reread my stuff... I talk about the top five - that is the upper echelon... and my thoughts on Top 5. The convo started on IIAC being ranked by the computers number two. My point was to say, no... they aren't in the upper echelon, but they are certainly in the convo for top ten.
I don't disagree with you... and I never said the SUNYAC was in my top five nor the upper echelon.
My point is that the SUNYAC shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, and UAA. If you're going to extend it down to a top ten and lump those leagues in with the likes of the SUNYAC, you're really distorting the picture. Those leagues are in a class by themselves. (Not too long ago I would've put the ODAC there, too, but the ODAC seems to have slumped over the past few years.)
Quote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 11:45:24 PM
The thing is, Dave, that it would have been easy for NWU to give in and start giving athletic money, especially considering they were kind of on an island with regard to other NCAA schools. So give them a little credit for continuing to adhere to the NCAA philosophy and to work to ultimately solely associate with that organization.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 10, 2018, 12:01:41 AM
Greg, would you mind posting your top 10 conferences. I am quite curious. I understand you think a linear 1-10 rank doesn't properly explain how much better those 4 conferences are than the rest, but humor me for a post! ;) ;D
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:46:38 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 11:45:24 PM
The thing is, Dave, that it would have been easy for NWU to give in and start giving athletic money, especially considering they were kind of on an island with regard to other NCAA schools. So give them a little credit for continuing to adhere to the NCAA philosophy and to work to ultimately solely associate with that organization.
I am not saying they shouldn't be applauded with sticking to the DIII model, but the moment they didn't... they wouldn't have been in DIII. I was simply saying, of course they adhered to the principle... they had to if they were serious about their membership.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 12:07:28 AMQuote from: Smitty Oom on March 10, 2018, 12:01:41 AM
Greg, would you mind posting your top 10 conferences. I am quite curious. I understand you think a linear 1-10 rank doesn't properly explain how much better those 4 conferences are than the rest, but humor me for a post! ;) ;D
Maybe tomorrow. I'm starting to wind down right now. Too much overstimulation from too many close games tonight. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 12:07:28 AMQuote from: Smitty Oom on March 10, 2018, 12:01:41 AM
Greg, would you mind posting your top 10 conferences. I am quite curious. I understand you think a linear 1-10 rank doesn't properly explain how much better those 4 conferences are than the rest, but humor me for a post! ;) ;D
Maybe tomorrow. I'm starting to wind down right now. Too much overstimulation from too many close games tonight. ;)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 10:53:59 PMQuote from: dunkin3117 on March 09, 2018, 10:51:53 PM
A charter member? Massey has ranked the IIAC as a top 4 conference the last 2 years. Takes all human bias out of the equation. Currently 2nd best league in the country behind the WIAC.
Wait... a computer knows how to rank and should be trusted? I think we know how this has worked out in the past... to the end that Minor League football got rid of it a few years back.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 12:09:28 AMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:46:38 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 11:45:24 PM
The thing is, Dave, that it would have been easy for NWU to give in and start giving athletic money, especially considering they were kind of on an island with regard to other NCAA schools. So give them a little credit for continuing to adhere to the NCAA philosophy and to work to ultimately solely associate with that organization.
I am not saying they shouldn't be applauded with sticking to the DIII model, but the moment they didn't... they wouldn't have been in DIII. I was simply saying, of course they adhered to the principle... they had to if they were serious about their membership.
I agree. I don't think that anyone should break into a round of applause for NebWes just for observing the rules, same as everybody else in D3. And there are other schools in D3 that are in worse spots in terms of geography, league affiliation opportunities, and scheduling.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 10, 2018, 07:41:24 AM
Props to the NEWMAC. I think they may have been an afterthought after MIT lost Jomard near the end of the regular season. Yes, they won the conference championship, but I don't think many of us thought they'd make the Elite 8. Springfield was probably the last team in. Both knocked off favored NESCAC teams.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:36:07 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2018, 11:27:05 PM
It occurred to me this evening that the Elite Eight contains only FIVE ranked teams (from the last pre-tourney poll): #1, 9,14,19,24. Did the pollsters have an off-week? Have there been that many legitimate upsets? Has parity gone stark-raving mad in D3? I lean most heavily on the last option, but see some of each at work. Comments?
It's that last part. It is why I have 40-50 schools I'm considering for my ballot each week.
I have four of the last eight on my ballot. The only ones I don't are Oshkosh, Ramapo, Springfield, and MIT... and all of them I considered, though MIT was a short thought considering they didn't have Jomard back.
Quote from: fantastic50 on March 02, 2018, 10:36:03 AM
Here's my take on the tournament...
Top-left bracket
Sectional final: Williams over Johns Hopkins
Salem darkhorse: MIT
Upset watch: Lebanon Valley over Middlebury
Bottom-left bracket
Sectional final: Wittenberg over John Carroll (but watch Augustana)
Salem darkhorse: Augsburg
Upset watch: Hope over Augsburg
Top-right bracket
Sectional final: UW-Platteville over Whitman (could have been for the Walnut & Bronze)
Salem darkhorse: Nebraska Wesleyan
Upset watch: CMS over Whitworth
Bottom-right bracket
Sectional final: Wesleyan over Cabrini
Salem darkhorse: None, but six teams have a decent shot (York, Plattsburgh, Hamilton, Swarthmore)
Upset watch: Nazareth over Hamilton
Championship
UW-Platteville over Wittenberg
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 09, 2018, 07:49:36 PMQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 09, 2018, 07:34:40 PM
There's always that discussion about when you're up 3 do you foul or not. With less than 4 seconds left in regulation I was thinking they should if he missed the FT because a second or two would run off and they couldn't tie it at the line. Sure enough he missed, they didn't foul, and Springfield hit the 3 to tie.
Exciting down to the wire finishes so far.
DePauw's Coach Fenlon would have fouled. He has laid it in out and probability states you should foul. Here is the paper he published:
https://www.depauw.edu/news-media/latest-news/details/25895/ (https://www.depauw.edu/news-media/latest-news/details/25895/)
http://c510383.r83.cf2.rackcdn.com/ath/mbasket/images/up3.pdf
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 10, 2018, 01:10:28 PM
Well, MIT fouled up three last night, so it feels like there's some added weight to the theory.
Quote from: kiko on March 10, 2018, 12:48:00 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 12:07:28 AMQuote from: Smitty Oom on March 10, 2018, 12:01:41 AM
Greg, would you mind posting your top 10 conferences. I am quite curious. I understand you think a linear 1-10 rank doesn't properly explain how much better those 4 conferences are than the rest, but humor me for a post! ;) ;D
Maybe tomorrow. I'm starting to wind down right now. Too much overstimulation from too many close games tonight. ;)
Since you think the ordinal ranking doesn't paint the full picture, when/if you do so, I'd appreciate if you would include some sort of a power rank that shows where the tiers are.
For example, on a 1-25 scale, it might show:
1. WIAC - 24
2. NESCAC - 21
3. UAA - 20
4. CCIW - 20
5. MIAC - 14
etc.
etc.
| 1. WIAC | 25 |
| 2. CCIW | 23 |
| 3. NESCAC | 22 |
| 4. UAA | 20 |
| 5. NEWMAC | 13 |
| 6. MIAC | 12 |
| 7. OAC | 10 |
| 8. Centennial | 9 |
| 9. ODAC | 8 |
| 10. NCAC | 7 |
Quote from: AndOne on March 10, 2018, 03:09:44 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 12:09:28 AMQuote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2018, 11:46:38 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 09, 2018, 11:45:24 PM
The thing is, Dave, that it would have been easy for NWU to give in and start giving athletic money, especially considering they were kind of on an island with regard to other NCAA schools. So give them a little credit for continuing to adhere to the NCAA philosophy and to work to ultimately solely associate with that organization.
I am not saying they shouldn't be applauded with sticking to the DIII model, but the moment they didn't... they wouldn't have been in DIII. I was simply saying, of course they adhered to the principle... they had to if they were serious about their membership.
I agree. I don't think that anyone should break into a round of applause for NebWes just for observing the rules, same as everybody else in D3. And there are other schools in D3 that are in worse spots in terms of geography, league affiliation opportunities, and scheduling.
You can almost always find someone or something that has it worse, Greg.
But that doesn't mean your concerns have no validity. In this particular case, sure, there are a few schools that have it worse than NWU in terms of being isolated. Consider, however, that those institutions don't play 20 conference games a year in a conference where every single other school gives athletic scholarships. Makes for a situation where the odds are kind of stacked against you. I'm not saying applaud them for following the rules, I'm saying just give them credit for not caving to the pressure and going the NAIA route, but instead staying true to the NCAA D3 philosophy and ideals to the point of giving up any and all association with the NAIA. I think they deserve a degree or two of respect for doing so. :)
Quote from: Oline79 on March 10, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
Also spittballing here. Does the fact that the NESCAC put 4 teams into the tournament (and there was huge argument on this board that they should have had 5), combined with the fact that only one team made the elite eight and zero made the final four, mean that there may be a chance that this league is slightly over-hyped? Perhaps they are not the power conference of the East, that they have been dubbed?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 05:05:09 PMQuote from: Oline79 on March 10, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
Also spittballing here. Does the fact that the NESCAC put 4 teams into the tournament (and there was huge argument on this board that they should have had 5), combined with the fact that only one team made the elite eight and zero made the final four, mean that there may be a chance that this league is slightly over-hyped? Perhaps they are not the power conference of the East, that they have been dubbed?
I don't think so. You have to take the long view, not just look at one season, or one March, to draw conclusions like this. The NESCAC has definitely earned its status as a power conference, and it's kept that status for a long time now, this weekend notwithstanding.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 10:14:11 PM
UW-Oshkosh beats Augustana in overtime, 95-88. Great game between two heavyweights who traded blows all night. In the end, there was just too much Ben Boots for Augie to handle.
Congratulations to the Titans, who will be making the first D3 Final Four trip in school history.
Quote from: mailsy on March 10, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
3 unranked teams and the #24 ranked team in the final 4. Who would of thought that at beginning of the season? :o Well the final will all be ranked and 1 will be number 1 in the last poll.
Quote from: mailsy on March 10, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
3 unranked teams and the #24 ranked team in the final 4. Who would of thought that at beginning of the season? :o Well the final will all be ranked and 1 will be number 1 in the last poll.
Quote from: 7express on March 10, 2018, 11:28:01 PM
If only I put $5,000 each on Ramapo, Oshkosh, Neb Wesleyan & Springfield as the 4 teams heading to Salem at the beginning of the year ::)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 10, 2018, 10:20:24 PM
I can't prove it right off the bat, but I'm dead certain that this is the worst collective winning percentage in D3 Final Four history.
It just goes to show that parity is king this season.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 10:45:06 PM
It's going to take a Final Four appearance for the IIAC to get any props, dunkin. The IIAC is a charter member conference of D3, yet it has never had a team reach the final weekend of the season in the 44 previous D3 tourneys.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 11, 2018, 10:01:13 AM
UW-Oshkosh becomes the 5th WIAC school to make the D3 Final Four. The CCIW, WIAC, and NESCAC have all sent 5...
*CCIW 5 (Augustana 6, Illinois Wesleyan 6, North Park 5, Carthage 1, North Central 1)
*WIAC 5 (Whitewater 5, Platteville 5, Stevens Point 4, Eau Claire 1, Oshkosh 1)
*NESCAC 5 (Williams 8, Amherst 7, Connecticut College 1, Middlebury 1, Trinity 1)
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 01, 2018, 03:24:13 AM2018: 14-2 6-8 3-1 1-2
A little look at how hosts have done in the tournament recently... 2013 was the awkward year where the tournament was stretched out to the breaking point.
Round 1 Round 2 Sweet 16 Elite 8
2017: 15-1 11-4 2-2 1-1
2016: 11-5 9-3 3-1 1-2
2015: 13-3 12-2 4-0 3-1
2014: 12-4 9-4 3-1 2-1
2013: 24-6 8-8 6-2 -
2012: 11-5 8-3 2-2 1-1
2011: 13-3 10-3 3-1 2-1
2010: 11-5 9-4 3-1 3-0
Totals minus 2013:
86-26 68-23 20-8 13-7
76.8% 74.1% 71.4% 65%
Quote from: Titan Q on March 11, 2018, 10:01:13 AM
UW-Oshkosh becomes the 5th WIAC school to make the D3 Final Four. The CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and NCAC have all sent 5...
*CCIW 5 (Augustana 6, Illinois Wesleyan 6, North Park 5, Carthage 1, North Central 1)
*WIAC 5 (Whitewater 5, Platteville 5, Stevens Point 4, Eau Claire 1, Oshkosh 1)
*NESCAC 5 (Williams 8, Amherst 7, Connecticut College 1, Middlebury 1, Trinity 1)
*NCAC 5 (Wittenberg 7, Wooster 3, DePauw 2, Ohio Wesleyan 1 Wabash 1)
Quote from: sac on March 11, 2018, 11:53:02 AMQuote from: Titan Q on March 11, 2018, 10:01:13 AM
UW-Oshkosh becomes the 5th WIAC school to make the D3 Final Four. The CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and NCAC have all sent 5...
*CCIW 5 (Augustana 6, Illinois Wesleyan 6, North Park 5, Carthage 1, North Central 1)
*WIAC 5 (Whitewater 5, Platteville 5, Stevens Point 4, Eau Claire 1, Oshkosh 1)
*NESCAC 5 (Williams 8, Amherst 7, Connecticut College 1, Middlebury 1, Trinity 1)
*NCAC 5 (Wittenberg 7, Wooster 3, DePauw 2, Ohio Wesleyan 1 Wabash 1)
I don't believe DePauw and Wabash were in the NCAC at the time they made the Final 4.
Five of Wittenberg's Final Fours would pre-date their entrance into the NCAC (1990)
Quote from: rlgyank on March 10, 2018, 11:05:08 PMQuote from: mailsy on March 10, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
3 unranked teams and the #24 ranked team in the final 4. Who would of thought that at beginning of the season? :o Well the final will all be ranked and 1 will be number 1 in the last poll.
Don't be so sure about that. Because some team from the NESCAC made the final four 7 years ago, they will probably have the top 4 spots in the final poll.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 11, 2018, 01:00:26 AMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 09, 2018, 10:45:06 PM
It's going to take a Final Four appearance for the IIAC to get any props, dunkin. The IIAC is a charter member conference of D3, yet it has never had a team reach the final weekend of the season in the 44 previous D3 tourneys.
Props in order now, Greg? ;D ??? :P ::) :o ;)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2018, 10:26:07 PMQuote from: mailsy on March 10, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
3 unranked teams and the #24 ranked team in the final 4. Who would of thought that at beginning of the season? :o Well the final will all be ranked and 1 will be number 1 in the last poll.
There's parity and then there is utter chaos! :o
The FF generally has AT LEAST two teams ranked in the final (regular season) top ten, and I'm not sure there has EVER been a FF with even two unranked teams, much less three (and two of them receiving ZERO votes). For the highest FF team to be ranked #24 is beyond weird - we've entered the Twilight Zone. :o 8-) ::)
| year | champ | 2nd | 3rd | 4th |
| 2000 | Calvin (#22) | Wisconsin-Eau Claire (#19) | Salem State (ORV) | Franklin & Marshall (#5) |
| 2001 | Catholic (#7) | William Paterson (#2) | Illinois Wesleyan (#25) | Ohio Northern (ORV) |
| 2002 | Otterbein (no votes) | Elizabethtown (ORV) | Carthage (#1) | Rochester (no votes) |
| 2003 | Williams (#11) | Gustavus Adolphus (ORV) | Wooster (ORV) | Hampden-Sydney (#7) |
| 2004 | Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#3) | Williams (#1) | John Carroll (#12) | Amherst (#14) |
| 2005 | Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#1) | Rochester (#5) | Calvin (no votes) | York (PA) (no votes) |
| 2006 | Virginia Wesleyan (#11) | Wittenberg (#10) | Illinois Wesleyan (#1) | Amherst (#5) |
| 2007 | Amherst (#3) | Virginia Wesleyan (#1) | Washington (MO) (ORV) | Wooster (#2) |
| 2008 | Washington (MO) (#1) | Amherst (#2) | Hope (#11) | Ursinus (no votes) |
| 2009 | Washington (MO) (#1) | Stockton (ORV) | Guilford (ORV) | Franklin & Marshall (no votes) |
| 2010 | Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#10) | Williams (ORV) | *Guilford (#3) | *Randolph-Macon (#19) |
| 2011 | St. Thomas (#13) | Wooster (#6) | *Middlebury (#9) | *Williams (#8) |
| 2012 | Wisconsin-Whitewater (ORV) | Cabrini (#14) | *Illinois Wesleyan (ORV) | *MIT (#10) |
| 2013 | Amherst (#5) | Mary Hardin-Baylor (ORV) | *North Central (IL) (#6) | *St. Thomas (#11) |
| 2014 | Wisconsin-Whitewater (#13) | Williams (#3) | *Amherst (#1) | *Illinois Wesleyan (#2) |
| 2015 | Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#7) | Augustana (#3) | *Babson (#23) | *Virginia Wesleyan (#19) |
| 2016 | St. Thomas (#4) | Benedictine (no votes) | *Amherst (#5) | *Christopher Newport (ORV) |
| 2017 | Babson (#3) | Augustana (#18) | *Whitman (#9) | *Williams (no votes) |
| 2018 | ^Wisconsin-Oshkosh (#24) | ^Nebraska Wesleyan (ORV) | ^Ramapo (no votes) | ^Springfield (no votes) |
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 11, 2018, 03:56:48 PM
Poll points per Final Four
2000: 750
2001: 1064
2002: 620
2003: 839
2004: 1604
2005: 1028
2006: 1644
2007: 1676
2008: 1529
2009: 680
2010: 1068
2011: 1473
2012: 579
2013: 1205
2014: 1934
2015: 1206
2016: 863
2017: 1093
2018: 158
Quote from: Titan Q on March 11, 2018, 04:20:15 PMQuote from: Gregory Sager on March 11, 2018, 03:56:48 PM
Poll points per Final Four
2000: 750
2001: 1064
2002: 620
2003: 839
2004: 1604
2005: 1028
2006: 1644
2007: 1676
2008: 1529
2009: 680
2010: 1068
2011: 1473
2012: 579
2013: 1205
2014: 1934
2015: 1206
2016: 863
2017: 1093
2018: 158
No bonuses for the D3hoops.com Top 25 pollsters this year.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 11, 2018, 10:01:13 AM
UW-Oshkosh becomes the 5th WIAC school to make the D3 Final Four. The CCIW, WIAC, NESCAC, and NCAC have all sent 5...
*CCIW 5 (Augustana 6, Illinois Wesleyan 6, North Park 5, Carthage 1, North Central 1)
*WIAC 5 (Whitewater 5, Platteville 5, Stevens Point 4, Eau Claire 1, Oshkosh 1)
*NESCAC 5 (Williams 8, Amherst 7, Connecticut College 1, Middlebury 1, Trinity 1)
*NCAC 5 (Wittenberg 7, Wooster 3, DePauw 2, Ohio Wesleyan 1 Wabash 1)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 11, 2018, 03:56:48 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2018, 10:26:07 PMQuote from: mailsy on March 10, 2018, 10:16:49 PM
3 unranked teams and the #24 ranked team in the final 4. Who would of thought that at beginning of the season? :o Well the final will all be ranked and 1 will be number 1 in the last poll.
There's parity and then there is utter chaos! :o
The FF generally has AT LEAST two teams ranked in the final (regular season) top ten, and I'm not sure there has EVER been a FF with even two unranked teams, much less three (and two of them receiving ZERO votes). For the highest FF team to be ranked #24 is beyond weird - we've entered the Twilight Zone. :o 8-) ::)
The pre-tourney d3hoops.com poll and the Final Four
year champ 2nd 3rd 4th 2000 Calvin (#22) Wisconsin-Eau Claire (#19) Salem State (ORV)
Franklin & Marshall (#5)2001 Catholic (#7) William Paterson (#2) Illinois Wesleyan (#25)
Ohio Northern (ORV)2002 Otterbein (no votes) Elizabethtown (ORV) Carthage (#1)
Rochester (no votes)2003 Williams (#11) Gustavus Adolphus (ORV) Wooster (ORV)
Hampden-Sydney (#7)2004 Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#3) Williams (#1) John Carroll (#12) Amherst (#14) 2005 Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#1) Rochester (#5) Calvin (no votes) York (PA) (no votes) 2006 Virginia Wesleyan (#11) Wittenberg (#10) Illinois Wesleyan (#1) Amherst (#5) 2007 Amherst (#3) Virginia Wesleyan (#1) Washington (MO) (ORV) Wooster (#2) 2008 Washington (MO) (#1) Amherst (#2) Hope (#11) Ursinus (no votes) 2009 Washington (MO) (#1) Stockton (ORV) Guilford (ORV)
Franklin & Marshall (no votes)2010 Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#10) Williams (ORV) *Guilford (#3) *Randolph-Macon (#19) 2011 St. Thomas (#13) Wooster (#6) *Middlebury (#9)
*Williams (#8)2012 Wisconsin-Whitewater (ORV) Cabrini (#14) *Illinois Wesleyan (ORV) *MIT (#10) 2013 Amherst (#5) Mary Hardin-Baylor (ORV) *North Central (IL) (#6) *St. Thomas (#11) 2014 Wisconsin-Whitewater (#13) Williams (#3) *Amherst (#1)
*Illinois Wesleyan (#2)2015 Wisconsin-Stevens Point (#7) Augustana (#3) *Babson (#23) *Virginia Wesleyan (#19) 2016 St. Thomas (#4) Benedictine (no votes) *Amherst (#5)
*Christopher Newport (ORV)2017 Babson (#3) Augustana (#18) *Whitman (#9) *Williams (no votes) 2018 ^Wisconsin-Oshkosh (#24) ^Nebraska Wesleyan (ORV) ^Ramapo (no votes) ^Springfield (no votes)
* Third-place finish following elimination of national consolation game
^ Final Four yet to be played
Poll points per Final Four
2000: 750
2001: 1064
2002: 620
2003: 839
2004: 1604
2005: 1028
2006: 1644
2007: 1676
2008: 1529
2009: 680
2010: 1068
2011: 1473
2012: 579
2013: 1205
2014: 1934
2015: 1206
2016: 863
2017: 1093
2018: 158
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
So I heard the men's NIT is going to four 10-minute quarters. Is that up for discussion again for future seasons?
Quote from: smedindy on March 12, 2018, 06:56:31 PMQuote from: Greek Tragedy on March 12, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
So I heard the men's NIT is going to four 10-minute quarters. Is that up for discussion again for future seasons?
Yes, they usually try these rules in the NIT now and then see how they work.
They used to dole out these experiments to conferences. I remember the Big East having six fouls at one point, and some other leagues tried various shot clocks and I think even three point distances.
Quote from: fantastic50 on March 12, 2018, 08:05:59 AM
I know Wooster leads the active tournament streak list at 16, but who else has a lengthy run going? What about streaks of (getting a berth and) winning at least one tournament game?
Quote from: fantastic50 on March 12, 2018, 08:05:59 AM
I know Wooster leads the active tournament streak list at 16, but who else has a lengthy run going? What about streaks of (getting a berth and) winning at least one tournament game?
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 12, 2018, 11:18:58 PM
I keep a list of teams who've won a game in the tournament. A lot of longish streaks ended this year, but Emory has the current active streak at 6 straight years with a tourney win. Augustana is second at five.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2018, 09:16:56 PMNWU with a lot of offensive rebounds in the 2nd half as well.
The Prairie Wolves have shot a crappy 9-16 from the free throw line tonight, but it was Springfield's missing two one-and-one front ends in the last 71 seconds that was instrumental in helping NWU to come back and force the overtime.
Quote from: 4samuy on March 16, 2018, 09:30:29 PM
Imho, no surprise that the teams who beat Whitman and Augustana in the elite 8 advance to the finals.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2018, 09:31:31 PM
Jake Ross certainly made his case for d3hoops.com POY, as he had a 21-9-7 night in a losing case for the Pride.
Of the 225 player minutes tonight for Nebraska Wesleyan, 207 of them were played by the starters. Cooper Cook and Jack Hiller played all 45 minutes, Nate Schimonitz played 43, and Ryan Garver played 41.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 16, 2018, 09:32:49 PMQuote from: 4samuy on March 16, 2018, 09:30:29 PM
Imho, no surprise that the teams who beat Whitman and Augustana in the elite 8 advance to the finals.
I typically root for the midwestern teams in the Final Four, so I was pleased to see this happen. Still, I have a lot of respect for Springfield and Ramapo.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2018, 09:43:23 PM
Well it will be the title game I expected all week, but that second semi was NOT what I expected! For much of the game Neb Wes couldn't have put up 130 points on the Little Sisters of the Poor, much less on the (then) #1 team in D3! (Springfield no doubt had something to do with that, but it sure looked to me more like bad offense than good defense.) But the last four minutes of OT - THAT is what I was expecting! ;D
Tomorrow night should be a great game. Alas, I have a long-standing prior engagement (who schedules a D3 title game for St. Patrick's Day?!), and will miss most if not all of it. (Our group is getting damned old; even on St. Patrick's Day I'll probably be home by 9! At least I'll miss the WORST of the drunken driving crowd - though back when I was teaching, a totally soused student for a noon class was not unusual!)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2018, 09:43:23 PMHave a bonny old time! ;)
Well it will be the title game I expected all week, but that second semi was NOT what I expected! For much of the game Neb Wes couldn't have put up 130 points on the Little Sisters of the Poor, much less on the (then) #1 team in D3! (Springfield no doubt had something to do with that, but it sure looked to me more like bad offense than good defense.) But the last four minutes of OT - THAT is what I was expecting! ;D
Tomorrow night should be a great game. Alas, I have a long-standing prior engagement (who schedules a D3 title game for St. Patrick's Day?!), and will miss most if not all of it. (Our group is getting damned old; even on St. Patrick's Day I'll probably be home by 9! At least I'll miss the WORST of the drunken driving crowd - though back when I was teaching, a totally soused student for a noon class was not unusual!)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2018, 10:11:34 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2018, 09:43:23 PM
Well it will be the title game I expected all week, but that second semi was NOT what I expected! For much of the game Neb Wes couldn't have put up 130 points on the Little Sisters of the Poor, much less on the (then) #1 team in D3! (Springfield no doubt had something to do with that, but it sure looked to me more like bad offense than good defense.) But the last four minutes of OT - THAT is what I was expecting! ;D
Tomorrow night should be a great game. Alas, I have a long-standing prior engagement (who schedules a D3 title game for St. Patrick's Day?!), and will miss most if not all of it. (Our group is getting damned old; even on St. Patrick's Day I'll probably be home by 9! At least I'll miss the WORST of the drunken driving crowd - though back when I was teaching, a totally soused student for a noon class was not unusual!)
At least you aren't going on a bike ride.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2018, 10:41:41 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2018, 09:43:23 PMHave a bonny old time! ;)
Well it will be the title game I expected all week, but that second semi was NOT what I expected! For much of the game Neb Wes couldn't have put up 130 points on the Little Sisters of the Poor, much less on the (then) #1 team in D3! (Springfield no doubt had something to do with that, but it sure looked to me more like bad offense than good defense.) But the last four minutes of OT - THAT is what I was expecting! ;D
Tomorrow night should be a great game. Alas, I have a long-standing prior engagement (who schedules a D3 title game for St. Patrick's Day?!), and will miss most if not all of it. (Our group is getting damned old; even on St. Patrick's Day I'll probably be home by 9! At least I'll miss the WORST of the drunken driving crowd - though back when I was teaching, a totally soused student for a noon class was not unusual!)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 17, 2018, 12:07:04 AMDon't you know that the ACC-haters of the world and especially those who live in ACC country had fun with that game!
Perhaps parity is not just a D3 thing. D1 had the first 16 over 1 game ever tonight, even more remarkable since UVA was the overall #! seed. UM-Baltimore County destroyed them by 20! :o
Three cheers for the 'little guys'!! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 17, 2018, 12:24:56 AMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 17, 2018, 12:07:04 AMDon't you know that the ACC-haters of the world and especially those who live in ACC country had fun with that game!
Perhaps parity is not just a D3 thing. D1 had the first 16 over 1 game ever tonight, even more remarkable since UVA was the overall #! seed. UM-Baltimore County destroyed them by 20! :o
Three cheers for the 'little guys'!! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: rlgyank on March 17, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Does anyone know if there is somewhere that has the video of the press conference's that happened after the semi final games? Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 17, 2018, 12:34:59 PM
Whether UW-Oshkosh or Nebraska Wesleyan, this will be the 30th national title won by a school in the "midwest" states in 44 years of the Division III MBB tournament. Titles have come from:
- Wisconsin 12
- Illinois 6
- Ohio 4
- Michigan 2
- Missouri 2
- Minnesota 2
- Indiana 1
After tonight, 9 of the last 11 titles will have come from this part of the country.
Quote from: AndOne on March 17, 2018, 02:42:02 PM
Hoping for a close, well played game with the Walnut & Bronze going home to Nebraska.
Quote from: Dutch Calvinist Reformer on March 17, 2018, 05:58:57 PM
??? ??? ??? CBS Sports Network...not in my Directv package. Anyone have a password or shortcut?
Quote from: TheOsprey on March 17, 2018, 08:17:59 PM
IL-Chicago to the Sweet Sixteen. March Madness continues!!
Quote from: AndOne on March 17, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
Congrats to my alma mater, the Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves (née Plainsmen) on their National Championship! ;D
The green beer will be flowing freely amid the numerous celebrations which will no doubt be taking place tonight around the NWU campus, and at various quaffing establishments in the Pleasure Capital of the Plains, otherwise known as Lincoln. 8-)
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 17, 2018, 10:19:43 PMQuote from: AndOne on March 17, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
Congrats to my alma mater, the Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves (née Plainsmen) on their National Championship! ;D
The green beer will be flowing freely amid the numerous celebrations which will no doubt be taking place tonight around the NWU campus, and at various quaffing establishments in the Pleasure Capital of the Plains, otherwise known as Lincoln. 8-)
You went to Nebraska Wesleyan? ;D :P ;)
Congrats to the Prairie Wolves.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2018, 02:54:43 PM...and Alpine TX or even the entire West Coast. I think that any team that must fly for the first 2 weekends is an "island" team for practical purposes.Quote from: Titan Q on March 17, 2018, 12:34:59 PM
Whether UW-Oshkosh or Nebraska Wesleyan, this will be the 30th national title won by a school in the "midwest" states in 44 years of the Division III MBB tournament. Titles have come from:
- Wisconsin 12
- Illinois 6
- Ohio 4
- Michigan 2
- Missouri 2
- Minnesota 2
- Indiana 1
After tonight, 9 of the last 11 titles will have come from this part of the country.
Bob's doing his best to make sure that he cuts down on his holiday season mail flow by not getting any Christmas cards from NESCAC fans. ;)
(But, hey, I've pointed out this same tendency in past years on d3boards.com. As I said here yesterday, I typically cheer for the midwestern teams in the Final Four ... and I'm usually pleased by the results.)Quote from: AndOne on March 17, 2018, 02:42:02 PM
Hoping for a close, well played game with the Walnut & Bronze going home to Nebraska.
It would be the farthest west that the Walnut & Bronze has ever gone ... although the same can't be said of The BeltTM, of course, of which NWU is currently in at least overnight possession after taking ItTM from Springfield. The BeltTM has actually been to the West Coast more than once. (https://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=2909059&x=-93.114773&y=40.540988&z=14)
Nebraska Wesleyan would also be the first of the so-called "island schools" of D3 to win the national championship, so I'm sure that the Prairie Wolves are being cheered on in such distant precincts as Presque Isle, Maine; Hancock, Michigan; Santa Cruz, California; Colorado Springs, Colorado; and Abilene, Texas ... eh, Ralph? ;)
Quote from: dunkin3117 on March 17, 2018, 08:01:27 PM
Wait, what??? A team from the mediocre IIAC won the title. Unreal.
Congrats to Nebraska Wesleyan, way to represent your school and your LEAGUE.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2018, 08:02:34 PM
As I said the other day, you people should've invited NWU into your league thirty years ago. ;)
| Region | # of titles | Most recent FF | Most recent title |
| Central | 20 | 2018 | 2015 |
| Great Lakes | 7 | 2011 | 2002 |
| Middle Atlantic | 4 | 2016 | 2001 |
| Northeast | 4 | 2018 | 2017 |
| East | 3 | 2005 | 1990 |
| West | 3 | 2018 | 2018 |
| Atlantic | 1 | 2018 | 1996 |
| South | 1 | 2015 | 2006 |
Quote from: rlgyank on March 17, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Does anyone know if there is somewhere that has the video of the press conference's that happened after the semi final games? Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 17, 2018, 01:42:22 PM
We can stop worrying about tournament host opportunities being taken from some schools for items out of their control now: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/ncaa-supports-federal-sports-wagering-regulation?division=d3
Quote from: rlgyank on July 26, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
Just to get some talk going, for the people that have been watching D3 basketball for awhile now, how did you think the officiating was for the 2018 tournament as compared to prior years.? It was the first year of having someone specifically overseeing the officials at the D3 level. As a follower of Nebraska Wesleyan, I have not followed the D3 level that closely until the last couple of years. I thought the officiating was pretty good, and I am not saying that just because NWU won. Now I did not watch many games of the tournament that were not at the site that NWU was playing at, so I am mostly commenting on those 9 games. The officiating was certainly better than what I saw most of the regular season. Were there calls that I disagreed with, certainly, but there will always be some of those. Anyway, let me know what you think.