First women's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/02/women-regional-rankings-first
Regional Rankings Week 2 released: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/02/women-regional-rankings-second
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It is now or never.
The last week of the Division III basketball regular season is here. Conferences will decide who will earn automatic bids to the NCAA Tournaments and teams try and position themselves for at-large bids, hosting opportunities, and bracketing considerations.
For teams who have been faltering, this is the last chance to right the ship. For programs which have underachieved, this is the last opportunity to live up to expectations. And of course for those with Cinderella dreams, this is the chance to try on the glass slipper.
Sunday's Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) will cover it all in a special, extended, episode which for the first time (outside of Marathon programming) will feature a guest from each of the eight regions. We will also discuss which teams may be on the bubble, who has most likely secured at-large bid, and which teams need to win the AQs. Plus, we talk about how regions as we know it now could very well change in the future.
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Sunday's show will hit the air at 6:00 p.m. ET. It can be watched live right here: http://bit.ly/2EeG5ZE (and simulcast on Facebook Live and Periscope).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options below.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Katherine Bixby, Johns Hopkins women's coach
- Jonathan Crosthwaite, Occidental men's senior
- Marc Brown, NJCU men's coach
- Justin LeBlanc, Millsaps women's coach
- Jamie Seward, SUNY New Paltz women's coach
- Marcos Echevarria, No. 17 Nichols men's senior
- Herman Carmichael, La Roches men's coach
- Klay Knueppel, Wisconsin Luthern women's coach
- Brad Bankston, ODAC Commissioner
- Pat Coleman & Ryan Scott, D3hoops.com (Bubble Talk)
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The new NCAA Division III women's basketball regional rankings are posted: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/02/women-regional-rankings-third
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There are just days left in the regular season and conference tournaments are in full throat. And those vying to get into the NCAA Tournament are already sitting on the proverbial "bubble."
There are two ways to keep dancing in March, either win the conference automatic qualifier (i.e. tournament in most cases) or hope one's resume is good enough to be selected. However, with upsets in conference tournaments come some nervous times for those needing the at-large avenue.
Some teams are already on the bubble, but are they in trouble?
On Thursday's Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com), Dave brings in guests who either have already lost or may need to win. We also enjoy the thrill of victory. And hear from a coach in charge of off-season workouts and practices at her institution. What goes into such a job as most teams start to make the transition to next season.
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Thursday's show can be seen LIVE starting at 7:00 p.m. ET right here: http://bit.ly/2NhkfYn (or via Facebook Live and Periscope simulcasts).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options to the right.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Cameron Hill, Trinity (Texas) women's coach
- Kristin Karat, Cedar Crest women's coach & Assistant Director for Athletic Performance (WBCA Center Court)
- Jeff Brown, Middlebury men's coach
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This is it! The regular season is over. The conference titles have been handed out and 86 teams know they will be playing next week in the NCAA Division III men's and women's Championship Tournaments!
However, 42 slots need to be filled. Which programs have best positioned themselves to selected to play for a national title?
It is the biggest show of the year. Bubble teams watch anxiously. Rivals watch wondering if their rivals will make the event. Others watch because ... this is one of the best nights of the entire season.
Tune in a special episode of Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) where we will make our mock selections of who will be in and who will be left out of the DIII national tournaments. Our teams of experts will make the picks using the same criteria the national committees consider.
Plus, hear, one last time before the brackets are announced, from the national committee chairs who discuss how this year's rankings and process have worked out. And hear from some teams who have already punched their tickets to the tournaments - many for the first time in program history!
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Sunday's special will hit the air at 6:00 p.m. ET right here: http://bit.ly/2XuWjWa (or via Facebook Live or Periscope simulcasts).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options below.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- John Alesi, Baruch men's coach
- Sam Atkinson, Men's National Committee Chair (Gallaudet Associate Director for Communications)
- Russ Phillips, Alfred men's coach
- Bill Curley, Emerson men's coach
- Karin Harvey, Women's National Committee Chair (Montclair State women's coach)
- Rayne Reber, Rosemont women's coach
- Lyle Jones, Bethany Lutheran women's coach
Men's Mock Selections Team:
- Ryan Scott, D3hoops.com
- Bob Quillman, IWUHoops.com
- Michael Blaine, Medaille men's coach
Women's Mock Selections Team:
- Gordon Mann, D3hoops.com
- BJ Spigelmyer, DeSales Sports Information Director
- James Wagner, CSAC Assistant Commissioner
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I'd switch Amherst and Messiah in your projected bracket so that 2(Amherst,Bowdoin) of the 4 top teams in the nation wouldn't meet before the Final 4.
Quote from: ronk on February 25, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
I'd switch Amherst and Messiah in your projected bracket so that 2(Amherst,Bowdoin) of the 4 top teams in the nation wouldn't meet before the Final 4.
Parity was our first priority, then geography took over. It was one of the tougher brackets I've ever done. Switching those pods would mean likely an extra flight the second weekend. We originally had the Amherst and DeSales pods switched, but thought the competitive balance was better this way. Not ideal, for sure, but this particular field was really tough to bracket.
We had IWU hosting instead of DePauw, but we literally could not make that work with the 500 mile radius. Really tough year. I do not envy the committee working on this one.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 25, 2019, 02:35:38 AM
Quote from: ronk on February 25, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
I'd switch Amherst and Messiah in your projected bracket so that 2(Amherst,Bowdoin) of the 4 top teams in the nation wouldn't meet before the Final 4.
Parity was our first priority, then geography took over. It was one of the tougher brackets I've ever done. Switching those pods would mean likely an extra flight the second weekend. We originally had the Amherst and DeSales pods switched, but thought the competitive balance was better this way. Not ideal, for sure, but this particular field was really tough to bracket.
We had IWU hosting instead of DePauw, but we literally could not make that work with the 500 mile radius. Really tough year. I do not envy the committee working on this one.
I didn't mean to switch the pods, but just the teams(Amherst for Messiah and v/v) within those pods.
Quote from: ronk on February 25, 2019, 08:29:38 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 25, 2019, 02:35:38 AM
Quote from: ronk on February 25, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
I'd switch Amherst and Messiah in your projected bracket so that 2(Amherst,Bowdoin) of the 4 top teams in the nation wouldn't meet before the Final 4.
Parity was our first priority, then geography took over. It was one of the tougher brackets I've ever done. Switching those pods would mean likely an extra flight the second weekend. We originally had the Amherst and DeSales pods switched, but thought the competitive balance was better this way. Not ideal, for sure, but this particular field was really tough to bracket.
We had IWU hosting instead of DePauw, but we literally could not make that work with the 500 mile radius. Really tough year. I do not envy the committee working on this one.
I didn't mean to switch the pods, but just the teams(Amherst for Messiah and v/v) within those pods.
Here's a dirty little secret the committee had to deal with and we don't: our games don't actually get played. When we're looking at potential second weekends, we really only pay attention to the hosts. Messiah ti Trine is under 500 miles - that's why they're in that spot. Amherst would have to fly to a second weekend, most likely. At some point, geography is the determiner over parity.
Interesting mock selections last night.
I noticed that when both St Joe's Maine and Chicago were on the table in mock round 3-- Chicago got the pick immediately. How much weight did you give to the common opponent on both their resumes-- Husson? St Joe's beat Husson by 11 up in Bangor, Maine-- while Husson beat Chicago by 5 on a neutral floor in Nashville, TN.
Given the gap between the teams in other criteria, we think Chicago would go first though ultimately it wouldn't matter.
Figured I'd start a topic for this year's tournament because there's posts in last year's tourney thread and selection is today and zomg it's confusing.
The name of the other tournament thread can also be changed ... we do it all the time.
It can be but our practice is to start a new one for each season.
I did this on the men's board, so may as well do it here to.
So, I did something different this year. Not only did I fill out the bracket, but once I got to the final 16, I predicted where I thought the host for the sectionals would be based on who I had left standing. Let me know what you think. 3 of the 4 were actually relatively straight forward, actually only had trouble with 1.
Upper Left (the Thomas More bracket): I had Thomas More, Texas-Dallas, and Wash U all winning at home with Chicago winning @ Transy. Obviously Texas-Dallas is flying, and the other 3 teams are all within driving distance of Thomas More, and no matter who the 4 teams left standing are, the only way this is NOT at Thomas More is if Thomas More loses the first weekend.
Bottom left (The Scranton?? bracket): I have Scranton, Messiah & Tufts winning at home, and Chris Newport winning the Gettysburg pod. Now if everything held to form (Gettysburg winning) I think Scranton is higher ranked, so they would get the sectional anyway, but Newport winning makes it easier for the NCAA....they can drive to Scranton, they can't drive to Medford. Scranton hosts, but I think they host anyways even if Gettysburg gets out of that.
Upper right (the St. Thomas bracket): St. Thomas & Amherst winning at home, with DePauw winning @ Oshkosh, and Hope winning @ Wartburg. St. Thomas & Amherst both have to fly to DePauw & Hope so take them both out of the running for sectional duties. I have it @ DePauw because they were higher ranked in the region than Hope was.
Bottom right (the Bowdoin?? bracket): I have DeSales, Ithaca, and Bowdoin all winning at home, and Hartwick getting the win @ New Paltz. This is the only one I had trouble with because this could go to either DeSales or Bowdoin. All 4 teams can drive to both Bowdoin or DeSales, with I believe all 16 teams being within driving distance of DeSales, and only John Carroll and Shenandoah being a flight to Bowdoin. I have this @ Bowdoin because I think they are the higher seeded team in the NCAA's eyes, but if the NCAA thinks DeSales is higher it will be there.
By bracketing, the NCAA has Tufts and Bowdoin as #1 seeds in their brackets.
If it's chalk in the bottom left, then Tufts will host; however If CNU wins @ Gettysburg as I expect, then Scranton will host by geography.
Bowdoin would host in the bottom right.
You cant go by that theory if that's the case what would Amherst be in their bracket?
Rofrog,
You're right; good catch; Amherst should be #2 in their Quad, down where Wartburg is. A couple of anomalies in the bracket: Trine shouldn't be playing Thomas More in the 2nd round. Hope, at least, should have been there instead of Trine.
Quote from: ronk on February 27, 2019, 11:25:43 PM
Rofrog,
You're right; good catch; Amherst should be #2 in their Quad, down where Wartburg is. A couple of anomalies in the bracket: Trine shouldn't be playing Thomas More in the 2nd round. Hope, at least, should have been there instead of Trine.
As we've discussed, that is a tough match up. And as much as I would like to put Hope there, it comes back to this question ... where do you then put Trine.
Remember, they finished third in the regional rankings, so hosting shouldn't be the first choice.
When we pull someone out, we have to put them somewhere. That's where I start to run into issues .. because Trine at Wartburg is just as brutal.
Wartburg is good but they're not Thomas More; I'm confident that Trine would prefer to exchange bracket spots with Hope.
Quote from: ronk on February 28, 2019, 12:19:22 AM
Wartburg is good but they're not Thomas More; I'm confident that Trine would prefer to exchange bracket spots with Hope.
As a Hope fan I would completely agree - prefer our draw (as tough as it is) to what Trine got.
Get ready!
https://youtu.be/fsYwv36MwTY
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It is nearly time to tip off the 2019 Division III Men's and Women's Championship Tournaments, but not without checking with Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) first.
We talk to a number of programs getting ready for their first round games. From those dancing for the first time to those whose programs are a mainstay, we will cover the gamete on Thursday's show. Tune in starting at 7:00 p.m. ET to also hear who experts and friends of the show think will be in the final fours, even winning it all, in a few weeks time.
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. You can watch Thursday's show in the video player above. If you miss any of the program, you can always watch it On Demand or listen to the audio-only podcast to the right (available shortly after the show goes off air).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options to the right.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Matt Hunter, York (Pa.) men's coach
- Bobby Hughes, Rosemont men's coach
- Women's final four predictions
- Brian Morehouse, No. 10 Hope women's coach (WBCA Center Court)
- Brad Fischer, No. 13 UW-Oshkosh women's coach
- Terry Butterfield, Texas-Dallas men's coach
- Men's final four predictions
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The Mid-Atlantic almost ran out of NCAA reps at their hosting sites tonight; there are 5 members but 3 are playing in the tourney. If the 4th was also playing or the region had a 3rd host, then they would have had to get a rep from another region.
Quote from: ronk on March 01, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
The Mid-Atlantic almost ran out of NCAA reps at their hosting sites tonight; there are 5 members but 3 are playing in the tourney. If the 4th was also playing or the region had a 3rd host, then they would have had to get a rep from another region.
That's funny! But they can and do have a rep from another region, and sometimes (often, perhaps) former committee members or even committee members from other sports can rep these events. It just has to be someone who knows the procedures and how to manage the NCAA aspects of the event (aka, read the handbook).
Here's how to follow with us tonight:
Live scoreboard: https://www.d3hoops.com/seasons/women/2018-19/ncaa-tournament
Whiparound: https://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/whiparound/index
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 01, 2019, 03:47:26 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 01, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
The Mid-Atlantic almost ran out of NCAA reps at their hosting sites tonight; there are 5 members but 3 are playing in the tourney. If the 4th was also playing or the region had a 3rd host, then they would have had to get a rep from another region.
That's funny! But they can and do have a rep from another region, and sometimes (often, perhaps) former committee members or even committee members from other sports can rep these events. It just has to be someone who knows the procedures and how to manage the NCAA aspects of the event (aka, read the handbook).
I forgot that there are actually 3 M/A hosts tonight(Messiah,Gettysburg, Scranton), so they will need to draft someone.
It is actually pretty common that non-committee members rep at sites in all sports. I can think of a half a dozen individuals who have been reps at sites this past academic year who were not on any committees. As Pat indicated, as long as they understand the rules and what needs to be accomplished, they can serve as an admin. There are several committee members who seem to be tied up with other things these weekends. It doesn't mean RAC members aren't the ones at events, but I have gotten used to non RAC members being at things these days.
Heck, in men's lacrosse D1 coaches have repped many games I've attended in DIII.
Ithaca to the Sweet 16, woooooooo!
Woo indeed.
That matchup with DeSales will be fun next week. Size against speed.
major congrats as well to my neighbors SUNY New Paltz. Jamie Seward has been incredible at the helm of that program. I hope the Hawks can give Bowdoin a battle. Looks like the Polar Bears left things until very late in that 4th quarter rally to beat Smith.
That sectional certainly should be at Bowdoin, but I hope they accidentally double-booked the gym. Let's play this thing in NP, c'mon.
I would think it would go to DeSales before it went to New Paltz, but what the hell do I know??
Looks like the 4 sectional hosts are pretty straightforward:
Upper left will be hosted by Thomas More. Mary Hardin Baylor will have to fly, but the rest of the teams can drive.
Bottom left looks like it will be hosted by Scranton. This is the toughest one, but Christopher Newport will fly to Medford, but they are within driving distance of Scranton (along with Tufts and Messiah) so that will be the deciding factor. As I said the other day I think this was heading to Scranton anyways, but if Gettysburg had won that pod Tufts would've at least been in the picture.
Bottom right will be in Bowdoin. All 4 teams are within driving distance of Bowdoin.
Upper right will be at St. Thomas. Amherst will have to fly, and Wartburg was behind St. Thomas in the last regional rankings, and I believe St. Thomas carries a better resume than Oshkosh, not to mention the Oshkosh men may very well be hosting the sectional.
I would be very surprised if someone OTHER than those 4 teams listed hosts a sectional.
I agree. Only two hosts didn't advance this weekend so the bracket pretty much went according to seed and that makes the hosting decisions much easier.
Ithaca confirms on twitter their regional is at Bowdoin.
https://twitter.com/BomberSports/status/1102255358616195072
Seems like Tufts earned the right to host, but guess travel expenses and drive vs fly wins out when hosting.
Scranton is hosting!!!
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We are down to 32. A great weekend of basketball has cut the NCAA tournament teams in half. There were some surprises, surprising outcomes, and fun environments around DIII. Even the end of the title defense of Nebraska Wesleyan.
On Sunday's Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com), we try and recap it all while also hearing from several of the coaches who found themselves in the thick of it.
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Sunday's show hits the air at 7:00 p.m. ET. You can watch it in the video player above. If you miss any of the show, you can watch it On Demand or listen the audio-only podcast to the right (available shortly after the show goes off air).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options to the right.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Mike Schauer, Wheaton (Ill.) men's coach
- Tom Palombo, Guilford men's coach
- Randi Henderson, No. 22 WashU women's coach
- Fred Richter, No. 15 DeSales women's coach
- Bill Broderick, Christopher Newport women's coach
- Dave Hixon, No. 7 Amherst men's coach
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The second weekend of the DIII Men's and Women's Championship Tournaments is set to start. Can the upset minded teams continue to prevail? Can the "favorites" maintain their poise? What home team will enjoy their own cooking? And who will still be playing in Fort Wayne and Salem?
On Thursday's Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com), Dave is joined by a number of guests to get a look not only at the action ahead this weekend, but the action coming at the final fours. Which teams seemed ready to be playing one more weekend?
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Thursday's show will air live starting at 7:00 p.m. ET. here: http://bit.ly/2C82LcA (or via Facebook Live and Periscope simulcasts).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options below.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- John Taurer, No. 13 St. Thomas men's coach
- Dave Hixon, No. 7 Amherst men's coach
- Nathan Denison, VP for Sales, Memorial Coliseum (Fort Wayne, Ind.)
- Mark Morefield, No. 12 UMHB women's coach
- Carla Berube, No. 4 Tufts women's coach
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Ithaca is in the Elite 8 as Annie Giannone floats a shot high off the glass and in with 6 seconds remaining and then blocks the final DeSales shot on the other end for a 76-75 win!
WOOOOO Annie Giannone wooooo Bombers win woooooo
Let's go New Paltz
(Woooooo)
Been watching Annie for 5 years, including AAU season - she makes plays!!!
Read somewhere that of the 16 sectional slots the past 4 years, 6 of them have been held all 4 years by the same programs, indicating that parity on the women's side is considerably behind that on the men's side.
That's another good data point to support that conclusion, for sure. We see it in the lack of movement in the Top 25 because it is much less common for a ranked team to get truly upset in Division III women's basketball.
are Tufts and Scranton playing to 21? These teams are a combined 7-43 from the floor with 4 and a half to go until halftime.
While the top of Division III WBB has remained somewhat locked in ... I do feel there is more parity in women's basketball. It isn't like men's basketball right now, but it has gotten deeper to be sure. Just look at how many more teams were considered top of the 25 best.
That said ... the top echelon is really hard to crack.
It is called defense!Something both teams and the top half of the nescac work alot on.That is why they are 5th and 6th in defense in the nation.Anyone can put a ball in a basket.
Halftime score 16-15
Quote from: Rofrog on March 09, 2019, 11:50:22 PM
It is called defense!Something both teams and the top half of the nescac work alot on.That is why they are 5th and 6th in defense in the nation.Anyone can put a ball in a basket.
I can't ! ;D
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The final fours are set! Eight of the best men's and women's teams remain to battle it out for two national titles. On the women's side, many of those expected to make it to Salem. On the men's side, none of the top four powers will be in Fort Wayne.
Sunday on Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com), Dave takes a look at both a record breaking performance on the men's side and chats with the four teams dancing on the women's side. (Due to the extensive coverage in Fort Wayne at the men's championship weekend, Sunday's show will have more women's coverage than men's.) How one man put up 62-points in a game and has already shattered the single-tournament scoring record. And how the four hosts on the women's side survived their weekends to advance.
Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Sunday's show can be seen LIVE starting at 7:00 p.m. ET right here: http://bit.ly/2NRnPZi (or via Facebook Live and Periscope simulcasts).
If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to dave.mchugh@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options below.
Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Aston Francis, Wheaton (Ill.) senior guard
- Jeff Hans, No. 1 Thomas More women's coach
- Adrienne Schibles, No. 3 Bowdoin women's coach
- Ruth Sinn, No. 2 St. Thomas women's coach
- Bridgette Mann, No. 9 Scranton senior guard
- Carey Harveycutter, City of Salem (Vir.)
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The top official in DI women's basketball is Joe Vaszily, Scranton grad and chairman of the board of trustees. Will he be working the Thomas More game tonight? ;)
At the half, TMU leads Scranton, 37-28. The winner will play Bowdoing, who downed UST in the first semi.
FINAL: TMU 69, Scranton 56. That sets up the title game that I suspect most neutral observers wanted: Bowdoin, d3hoops.com poll #1 much of the season vs. Thomas More, #1 entering the tourney (and my pick for #1 ever since the turn of the year).
Items from the Final 4:
Thomas More just too strong - inside game, outside game, defense(shot clock violations), press, plus POY; responded to any runs by Scranton and Bowdoin with runs of their own
Talked with Randolph-Macon Coach Lahaye about her game with Scranton in the Final 4 14 years ago in which the sister of their current men's coach was the X factor, coming off the bench with double figures. Coach Lahaye had 2 younger women with her, presumably players, and I'm guessing, after the fact, that one of them was Kelly Williams who had a lot of double-doubles early in the season before being injured.
Also, with Rochester Jim Scheible - mentioned the regional?/sectional? some years ago that had him, Mike Strong, Pat Manning(the 2 all-star coaches), and Andy Yosinoff; there were something like 2150 victories among the 4 at that time in that regional.
And with Messiah Coach Mike Miller
All-star game was competitive and entertaining; Mike Strong said he felt like coming back out of retirement when his team scored so well; got to see many for 1st time; standouts were Kelsi McNamara(St. Joe(ME)), Mia Morrison(WM Smith), Bryce Frank(Austin), Brandi Dawson(Trine), Madeline Homoly(Wash U).
2018 POY Kathy Kerrigan in attendance, cheering on her Bowdoin Bears
Conversed with many player parents(dads of Madison Temple, Maddie Hasson, Abby Kelly, Taylor Choate, mom of Sam Roy); all were very nice down-to-earth people that I usually find in D3 basketball
Gordon Mann was just too busy to talk with; I'll be watching the replays to hear his commentary.
Site(Roanoke College's Cregger Fieldhouse) was an outstanding facility for the Final 4 and the event was 1st class
How did you find the parking situation? Gordon mentioned it might've been a problem for people.
Lucky enough the 1st day to get a spot in small lot near entrance when a student left at same time; 2nd day parked down the hill 100 yards away, early enough for all-star game; later arrivals may have had a problem.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 15, 2019, 09:31:28 PM
FINAL: TMU 69, Scranton 56. That sets up the title game that I suspect most neutral observers wanted: Bowdoin, d3hoops.com poll #1 much of the season vs. Thomas More, #1 entering the tourney (and my pick for #1 ever since the turn of the year).
Quote from: ronk on March 17, 2019, 09:04:22 PM
Items from the Final 4:
Thomas More just too strong - inside game, outside game, defense(shot clock violations), press, plus POY; responded to any runs by Scranton and Bowdoin with runs of their own
So I guess we'll see if the last Bowdoin #1 vote holdout will
finally vote for TMU and make them the unanimous #1 in the final season poll?
Given that I'm a Bowdoin sports fan with all admitted bias, I reckon this question will sound like sour grapes... But are Thomas More's D3 achievements at all suspect given they're moving up to the NAIA division next season...and I think I read their 2015 national title was vacated due to alleged recruiting violations? Please provide any perspective that you can to help my understanding.
Not in my mind.
Consider the following...
- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.
- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA. Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.
A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission) to financial aid.
My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.
There is some aspect of iRONy that Shelby Rupp, now a national college women's champion, is from the town(Milan,IN) that was celebrated as the small-town state champion in the movie Hoosiers.
Per the comment about a previous title (their first) being vacated due to a violation - that was a screw up on TMU's side. They admitted it. They didn't do their due diligence. That has no translation on them winning two more titles since. It certainly didn't help them with relationships within the PAC or finding a new conference home in DIII, but it has no bearing on the program Hans built at TMU nor the players, as Gordon mentioned, who played for that program.
And to be a full member of DIII, they cannot offer scholarships to anyone until they are out of DIII. They are perfectly welcome to battle for titles if eligible.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 22, 2019, 11:09:11 AM
Not in my mind.
Consider the following...
- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.
- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA. Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.
A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission) to financial aid.
My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.
In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.
Quote from: truenorth on March 22, 2019, 10:13:22 AM
Given that I'm a Bowdoin sports fan with all admitted bias, I reckon this question will sound like sour grapes... But are Thomas More's D3 achievements at all suspect given they're moving up to the NAIA division next season...and I think I read their 2015 national title was vacated due to alleged recruiting violations? Please provide any perspective that you can to help my understanding.
We'll never really know. It's all on each school's honor that they do things the right way. In Division III, you are not allowed/supposed to "target" athletes that you want (with financial aid) to try to entice them. Thomas More DOES have, I am told, certain scholarships that are available to ALL students from within the diocese (or something like that, I do not remember exactly), and if one of those kids happens to be a great basketball player, so be it. Same with minority scholarships at the better academic schools. Where you run into problems - is when a program is allowed to "choose two per year" (or insert any number)- where the coaching staff can identify a number of recruits they really want and the admissions/Financial Aid departments do their best to entice those recruits through the financial aid process. It's easy to mathematically hide this from the NCAA. I watched the Final, and came away shaking my head at the utterly ridiculous athleticism, length, and talent that Thomas More possesses. I'm not accusing them of anything untoward, but I'd LOVE to know what Thomas More's best players are paying to go to school there, or what they promised their 2018 recruits would happen to their financial aid after the season, or even if anything would NEED to happen - but ultimately it's none of my business and you can't go accusing schools just because they have a great team-it diminishes the hard work of their players and coaches and virtually un-provable...
Quote from: Enginerd on March 22, 2019, 10:32:49 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 22, 2019, 11:09:11 AM
Not in my mind.
Consider the following...
- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.
- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA. Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.
A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission) to financial aid.
My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.
In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.
The roster appears to be filled with local kids...
http://www.thomasmoresaints.com/sports/wbkb/2018-19/roster
We have seen similar elite coaching in the ASC, with local talent.
Julie Goodenough led Hardin-Simmons at the turn of the millenium with local talent. She knocked on the door of the Final Four for years. She made it to Okie State, but now is having success at Abilene Christian.
Chris Kielsmeier went undefeated at Howard Payne in 2008 with local talent. He moved on to success at Wayne State College in Nebraska where he went 237-72 over 10 years. He just moved to Cleveland State this year.
I am inclined to believe the "local talent/ elite coaching" scenario.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2019, 11:10:36 PM
Quote from: Enginerd on March 22, 2019, 10:32:49 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 22, 2019, 11:09:11 AM
Not in my mind.
Consider the following...
- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.
- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA. Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.
A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission) to financial aid.
My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.
In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.
The roster appears to be filled with local kids...
http://www.thomasmoresaints.com/sports/wbkb/2018-19/roster
Local kids that, for one reason or another are choosing Thomas More over the numerous D2, NAIA, and even D-I schools within 150 miles of that area...
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post. It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.
Quote from: truenorth on March 25, 2019, 08:10:56 AM
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post. It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.
And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools, and to a lesser degree, PA state schools, vs private school tuition. While the PA state schools are D2, the combo of partial basketball scholarships with reduced in-state tuition makes them a factor in D3 PA private school recruiting.
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2019, 09:03:25 AM
Quote from: truenorth on March 25, 2019, 08:10:56 AM
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post. It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.
And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools vs private school tuition.
No "elite" coach has EVER won a title with mediocre talent...
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2019, 09:03:25 AM
Quote from: truenorth on March 25, 2019, 08:10:56 AM
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post. It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.
And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools, and to a lesser degree, PA state schools, vs private school tuition. While the PA state schools are D2, the combo of partial basketball scholarships with reduced in-state tuition makes them a factor in D3 PA private school recruiting.
Not as much as people would like to lead on. I was talking to a "state school" coach recently and they mentioned how they lost a top recruit to a "private school" because with the discounts, the privates were cheaper (by $10k per year) than the state school.
I hear this argument from coaches on both sides and both are right and both are wrong. Yes, the "sticker price" for privates is far higher, but they have the ability to reduce the pricing in numerous ways (I heard recently something like 5% of students actually pay the full sticker price at most private colleges). Yes, the "sticker price" for state colleges is lower, but they can't do any changes to those prices unless it is out of state and offering in-state (which Frostburg will do with it's DII move, should it be approved).
BTW - the reason people are so confused when it comes to York is because of their "sticker price." They basically did away with the "here is our price, but here is our discount" game and just told everyone it costs X amount to come here. Guess who just did this recently? Albright. They get rid of the "game" as it where and just tell everyone their basic price (usually a third to half the previous "sticker price") and go from there.
Yes, states have "lower" tuitions to some degree, but that doesn't mean the privates are always out of the conversation. Depending on who you talk to, they will spin it a certain way. That's why I talk to both sides and figure out the real game. :)
The entire recruiting field is both fascinating and ridiculously complicated ... depending on the school, the departments (admissions and athletics), the programs, the coaches, etc. Everyone has their niche and everyone has their excuses.
We discussed this point at the beginning of this season and the cost figures show that State schools in the Pennsylvania market -- the market Ronk specifically references -- are definitely cheaper than private schools, including York. It's not a theoretical difference or matter of how you present the numbers.
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=749.msg1879214#msg1879214
Private schools' ability to reduce the cost of admission through financial aid also varies significantly by college. A regional college like Wilkes ($44 million endowment) or Arcadia ($68 million) cannot afford the same packages that a school like Bowdoin ($1.5 billion) or Amherst ($2.2 billion) can, short of a wealthy contributor who loves that particular program.
Ronk can probably speak more directly to Scranton's ability ($170 million endowment) to use financial aid to reduce the net cost of attending their college -- and make it easier for borderline D2 athletes to go there -- but I'm guessing the private school/public school differentiation is a real determinant in who ultimately decides to go there, especially if you're a New York state native who can go to a place like SUNY New Paltz for less than $8,000 a year.
4 of my prospects started for Geneseo this season and, for at least 2 of them, in-state tuition vs the private school financial package was a major factor.
The difference between public's vs. privates in the recruiting wars is very real.
At a school that costs over 50k per year, maybe they'll come up with 10k in grants but if you're also looking at any SUNY school, without any TAP or PELL awards the most you'll be paying for tuition, fees, books & room & board is 25k. Huge difference. Throw in some financial aid & the gap gets even larger.
One way to try & work around it is to recruit kids that attend private high schools where the parents are already over the sticker shock from when the kids entered in 7th. or 8th. grade.
Just from the perspective of Scranton's women's roster between this year & last, they have kids that attended the following schools with the respective yearly cost of that school in parentheses, (working from least expensive to most expensive).
*Archbishop Ryan (8,000k)
*Archbishop Carroll (9,500k)
*St. Francis Prep (10k)
*Gwynedd Mercy Academy (20,000k)
*Springside Chesnut Hill (40k)
*Saddle River Day School (40k)
*Gill St. Bernard's (40k)
*Morristown-Beard School (recruit for class of 23'- 41K) and, last but certainly not least...
*Poly Prep NYC (51k)
I know the Jesuit's love bringing the dollars in but I'm not so sure they share it quite as freely.
Therefore, one way around that seems to be recruit in areas where financial aid not is going to be the largest determining factor for someone's son or daughter ultimately deciding to attend school A over school B.
I think when you check on NESCAC schools, you'll find an even greater proportion of kids coming from feeder prep schools where the college may actually be less than the high school.
Quote from: saratoga on March 26, 2019, 07:24:44 PM
The difference between public's vs. privates in the recruiting wars is very real.
At a school that costs over 50k per year, maybe they'll come up with 10k in grants but if you're also looking at any SUNY school, without any TAP or PELL awards the most you'll be paying for tuition, fees, books & room & board is 25k. Huge difference. Throw in some financial aid & the gap gets even larger.
One way to try & work around it is to recruit kids that attend private high schools where the parents are already over the sticker shock from when the kids entered in 7th. or 8th. grade.
Just from the perspective of Scranton's women's roster between this year & last, they have kids that attended the following schools with the respective yearly cost of that school in parentheses, (working from least expensive to most expensive).
*Archbishop Ryan (8,000k)
*Archbishop Carroll (9,500k)
*St. Francis Prep (10k)
*Gwynedd Mercy Academy (20,000k)
*Springside Chesnut Hill (40k)
*Saddle River Day School (40k)
*Gill St. Bernard's (40k)
*Morristown-Beard School (recruit for class of 23'- 41K) and, last but certainly not least...
*Poly Prep NYC (51k)
I know the Jesuit's love bringing the dollars in but I'm not so sure they share it quite as freely.
Therefore, one way around that seems to be recruit in areas where financial aid not is going to be the largest determining factor for someone's son or daughter ultimately deciding to attend school A over school B.
I think when you check on NESCAC schools, you'll find an even greater proportion of kids coming from feeder prep schools where the college may actually be less than the high school.
Very true Saratoga - I'd be willing to bet that there are not a lot of working-class kids populating NESCAC rosters.
Here's an underlying reality that we may be ignoring in this discussion...
Although it's true that well endowed private liberal arts colleges have the ability to provide need-based grants that render the net cost comparable to public universities, there are many middle class or lower middle class American families who aren't even aware of that fact. So based on surface knowledge, it's often the case that a good high school athlete without that knowledge will focus on local or regional public universities in his/her search...
QuoteVery true Saratoga - I'd be willing to bet that there are not a lot of working-class kids populating NESCAC rosters.
I don't know what the breakdown is between students who went to private school and those who went to working class public schools on NESCAC rosters, but I suspect it mirrors the student body itself and that you can find working-class kids on NESCAC rosters.
I looked at Bowdoin's roster and see two players right off the bat who went to public high schools, though I have no idea what their family financial situation is. We can't even reliably use public-versus-private high school as a proxy for someone's financial situation because some of the elite private high schools have the same financial aid packages that the elite private colleges do. One of my roommates in college went to one of the elite private NE high schools despite coming from a family with a single mom who worked for the NYC subway line.
I came from a working class family in a blue collar town where a small number of people went on to any kind of post secondary education -- a very different world from the elite prep schools -- and I went to a NESCAC school because the financial aid packages there met my need. I wasn't unusual or even an athlete (though the starting quarterback from my high school had the same generous financial aid package to go to another NESCAC school). But the financial aid package made cost a non-issue for me. The same was true for another roommate who was a starter on the hockey team and came from a working class family.
That's the advantage that schools like Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Amherst have. They can and do provide generous financial aid to students from working class families, whether they are athletes or not, and take cost considerations off the table. And because they offer it to non-athletes, it's not a violation of Division III's no scholarship policy.
So if the coaches see players they like at AAU or other recruiting events, they can make the financial aid package part of the pitch and make the case that the athlete shouldn't limit their college selection process to the public universities or regional colleges which look more affordable on paper.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 27, 2019, 12:27:57 PM
QuoteVery true Saratoga - I'd be willing to bet that there are not a lot of working-class kids populating NESCAC rosters.
I don't know what the breakdown is between students who went to private school and those who went to working class public schools on NESCAC rosters, but I suspect it mirrors the student body itself and that you can find working-class kids on NESCAC rosters.
I looked at Bowdoin's roster and see two players right off the bat who went to public high schools, though I have no idea what their family financial situation is. We can't even reliably use public-versus-private high school as a proxy for someone's financial situation because some of the elite private high schools have the same financial aid packages that the elite private colleges do. One of my roommates in college went to one of the elite private NE high schools despite coming from a family with a single mom who worked for the NYC subway line.
I came from a working class family in a blue collar town where a small number of people went on to any kind of post secondary education -- a very different world from the elite prep schools -- and I went to a NESCAC school because the financial aid packages there met my need. I wasn't unusual or even an athlete (though the starting quarterback from my high school had the same generous financial aid package to go to another NESCAC school). But the financial aid package made cost a non-issue for me. The same was true for another roommate who was a starter on the hockey team and came from a working class family.
That's the advantage that schools like Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Amherst have. They can and do provide generous financial aid to students from working class families, whether they are athletes or not, and take cost considerations off the table. And because they offer it to non-athletes, it's not a violation of Division III's no scholarship policy.
So if the coaches see players they like at AAU or other recruiting events, they can make the financial aid package part of the pitch and make the case that the athlete shouldn't limit their college selection process to the public universities or regional colleges which look more affordable on paper.
If Abby Kelly was 1 of them - I talked with her dad at breakfast in our hotel the day after the championship game, mostly to find out how I had missed her in AAU play and found out she played for a lesser program that didn't make it down to the PA/MD/DC area for those major tourneys. While Scranton may have had a religious foot-in-the-door(if I had seen her), it didn't help with Katie Kerrigan(2018 POY) the year before when I saw her making plays against future D1 players in AAU and projected her to be a D3 PLAYER. I have no doubt the NESCAC academic rep would supersede even if Scranton
could offer a more generous financial package, as witness 3 starters for Amherst and 1 starter with 4 reserves for Tufts.
The very top elite private schools offer a no-loan guarantee, that accepted students who meet family income criteria can attend without debt. Schools with giant endowments underwrite the expense to make sure everyone at least theoretically has access.
Here's a list I found online - you'll notice lots of NESCAC and UAA schools (including Bowdoin) on the list.
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/colleges-with-no-loans-financial-aid-policies
It's a luxury for super-wealthy institutions, but I imagine it really helps with recruiting (assuming you can get admitted).
Ryan,
An interesting list - I wonder if high school guidance counselors are aware of such possibilities for their admissions-capable students.
Quote from: ronk on March 27, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Ryan,
An interesting list - I wonder if high school guidance counselors are aware of such possibilities for their admissions-capable students.
The one thing I don't know is if/how they calculate the expected family contribution. When I went to school, the gov't number was definitely WAY higher than what my parents could actually afford to pay. I'm assuming they have some workaround for that - especially for those schools that don't limit the program by family income.