For all who do not know St. Thomas may not be a D3 member much longer. The MIAC conference to put to a vote the end of the month whether St. Thomas is to be ousted. This is not coming from any illegal behavior but a disparity amongst student population vs academic success. St. Thomas has roughly double to population of the next largest MIAC school. This could be a sad exit for a program that just introduced itself into the national discussion as a quality program. Link below to a news report and more information.
http://www.startribune.com/miac-rivals-plot-ouster-of-st-thomas/508145182/
A large number of people, both on d3boards.com and in the press as well, believe that the move to oust St. Thomas from the MIAC (which Pat Coleman, with a nod towards the term "Brexit", labeled "Tomtoss") is primarily motivated by football -- specifically, the manner in which the Tommies drub their MIAC opponents by fifty points or more on a semi-regular basis.
Quote from: D3Grad on April 08, 2019, 04:50:47 PM
For all who do not know St. Thomas may not be a D3 member much longer. The MIAC conference to put to a vote the end of the month whether St. Thomas is to be ousted. This is not coming from any illegal behavior but a disparity amongst student population vs academic success. St. Thomas has roughly double to population of the next largest MIAC school. This could be a sad exit for a program that just introduced itself into the national discussion as a quality program. Link below to a news report and more information.
http://www.startribune.com/miac-rivals-plot-ouster-of-st-thomas/508145182/
Even if St. Thomas were to be thrown out of the MIAC, why would they cease being a D3 member?
Quote from: Buck O. on April 09, 2019, 07:49:21 AM
Quote from: D3Grad on April 08, 2019, 04:50:47 PM
For all who do not know St. Thomas may not be a D3 member much longer. The MIAC conference to put to a vote the end of the month whether St. Thomas is to be ousted. This is not coming from any illegal behavior but a disparity amongst student population vs academic success. St. Thomas has roughly double to population of the next largest MIAC school. This could be a sad exit for a program that just introduced itself into the national discussion as a quality program. Link below to a news report and more information.
http://www.startribune.com/miac-rivals-plot-ouster-of-st-thomas/508145182/
Even if St. Thomas were to be thrown out of the MIAC, why would they cease being a D3 member?
There aren't too many likely landing spots for a conference for St. Thomas in D3. Given the way the school has changed, recent hire as AD, there is speculation they were on a path to D2 or eventually D1 at some point. This may be a kick in the pants to get that moving. Being booted from the MIAC doesn't require them to move divisions, but being an Independent would be a very difficult spot.
Quote from: jknezek on April 09, 2019, 09:29:25 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on April 09, 2019, 07:49:21 AM
Even if St. Thomas were to be thrown out of the MIAC, why would they cease being a D3 member?
There aren't too many likely landing spots for a conference for St. Thomas in D3. Given the way the school has changed, recent hire as AD, there is speculation they were on a path to D2 or eventually D1 at some point. This may be a kick in the pants to get that moving. Being booted from the MIAC doesn't require them to move divisions, but being an Independent would be a very difficult spot.
I would like St. Thomas to stay D3 in regards to soccer as that is all I know. The program was built for the D3 game. Many of the players are those who had opportunities to play at higher divisions but wanted the D3 environment of the student-athlete and much less the athlete-student. An independent sounds great for soccer in my mind as competition is plenty good within Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Northern Illinois but I do not know how well this works for all other sports. As said before, this stems as a football issue but St. Thomas across all sports in Men and Women do very well.
Quote from: D3Grad on April 09, 2019, 10:07:02 AM
Quote from: jknezek on April 09, 2019, 09:29:25 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on April 09, 2019, 07:49:21 AM
Even if St. Thomas were to be thrown out of the MIAC, why would they cease being a D3 member?
There aren't too many likely landing spots for a conference for St. Thomas in D3. Given the way the school has changed, recent hire as AD, there is speculation they were on a path to D2 or eventually D1 at some point. This may be a kick in the pants to get that moving. Being booted from the MIAC doesn't require them to move divisions, but being an Independent would be a very difficult spot.
I would like St. Thomas to stay D3 in regards to soccer as that is all I know. The program was built for the D3 game. Many of the players are those who had opportunities to play at higher divisions but wanted the D3 environment of the student-athlete and much less the athlete-student. An independent sounds great for soccer in my mind as competition is plenty good within Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Northern Illinois but I do not know how well this works for all other sports. As said before, this stems as a football issue but St. Thomas across all sports in Men and Women do very well.
I think some of this stems from football, no doubt. But I think a lot of it stems from the way St. Thomas has changed over the last 20 years. It is no longer reflective of the other MIAC schools. Now plenty of conferences in D3 have outlier schools and don't have a problem with that setup. But other conferences have been fairly pure to keeping mission and values aligned. There seems to be a part of the MIAC that doesn't want to put up with an outlier who is kicking the crud out of them, not just in football but in other sports as well. And there is a portion of the MIAC that doesn't care and is happy to have elite competition regardless of mission and values.
Is football part of the driving force? Absolutely. But I don't think this is all about football. It's about the athletic arms race, it's about what it takes to be nationally relevant in D3 athletics overall, it's about small liberal arts versus large regional university values, its about admissions philosophies, it's about having a collegial relationship with your colleagues and fellow institutions... in other words, it's about a lot of things that have been building for a very long time both inside and outside athletics and most of them have to do with the coming financial changes for colleges.
I would agree that football is the catalyst to set off this action now, but football isn't the reason the pot started and approached its boiling point.
Can someone educate me on the backstory? I see they're routinely smoking everyone in football, but what's different about the school compared to their league peers, and how have they changed in the last 20 years? I'm not familiar with the conference at all, and as someone pointed out, there are plenty of other conferences with outliers. For example, I'm not sure what Stevens has in common with future MAC-Freedom conference mates Delaware Valley or FDU-Florham.
Quote from: jknezek on April 09, 2019, 10:19:20 AM
I think some of this stems from football, no doubt. But I think a lot of it stems from the way St. Thomas has changed over the last 20 years. It is no longer reflective of the other MIAC schools. Now plenty of conferences in D3 have outlier schools and don't have a problem with that setup. But other conferences have been fairly pure to keeping mission and values aligned. There seems to be a part of the MIAC that doesn't want to put up with an outlier who is kicking the crud out of them, not just in football but in other sports as well. And there is a portion of the MIAC that doesn't care and is happy to have elite competition regardless of mission and values.
Is football part of the driving force? Absolutely. But I don't think this is all about football. It's about the athletic arms race, it's about what it takes to be nationally relevant in D3 athletics overall, it's about small liberal arts versus large regional university values, its about admissions philosophies, it's about having a collegial relationship with your colleagues and fellow institutions... in other words, it's about a lot of things that have been building for a very long time both inside and outside athletics and most of them have to do with the coming financial changes for colleges.
I would agree that football is the catalyst to set off this action now, but football isn't the reason the pot started and approached its boiling point.
Kudos to you for seeing the situation as it is. This is a multi-headed beast. Football as a catalyst is a great way to explain. St. Thomas is much different than the other MIAC schools. They are in a prime location to continue growing as a university. There are other schools in the MIAC who are also in the prime twin cities location but have chosen not to grow which is where St. Thomas doesn't fit the MIAC "identity." Is this the fault of their own for choosing to expand and take advantage of the market? Up for debate. One thing that has not changed much over the past 20 years is the undergraduate enrollment has grown less than 1000 students, 5400 to 6200. We know athletic success is not based on enrollment size at the collegiate level. It is recruiting and reputation. To quote field of dreams, "If you build it, he [they] will come."
Quote from: EB2319 on April 09, 2019, 11:05:10 AM
Can someone educate me on the backstory? I see they're routinely smoking everyone in football, but what's different about the school compared to their league peers, and how have they changed in the last 20 years? I'm not familiar with the conference at all, and as someone pointed out, there are plenty of other conferences with outliers. For example, I'm not sure what Stevens has in common with future MAC-Freedom conference mates Delaware Valley or FDU-Florham.
Some conferences are ok with outliers. Others aren't. That is what the MIAC is deciding right now. Where do they fall? STU is a regional university. Big grad schools, large enrollment both grad and undergrad. They behave like a regional university and make no bones about their desire to become a national university. That is different from a liberal arts school. The rest of the MIAC is generally smaller to small liberal arts. A few graduate schools, but nothing really comprehensive like having law, business and, as STU has discussed several times, adding a med school as well.
Admissions encompass a much wider target at STU, especially as they added a community college to their pipeline as well. Most of this was done over the last 20 years, though STU had grown to their current undergrad population mostly in the 90s, so that portion of the changes stretches back farther.
While not all the MIAC schools are high ranking academic schools, several are. Mac and Carleton and St. Olaf's all feel they belong or can become top tier academic private liberal arts schools. Others in the conference don't really reach that tier, but at least they are liberal arts focused. So St. Thomas is truly an outlier and continues to be more of one as they have taken a different and, one would be remiss to not accede, a very successful track, to become a regional/national university.
Basically it's an argument over what is most important to the MIAC. Being of like minds, or being a geographically convenient conference with an outlying powerhouse. I find it fascinating.
Personally I don't really see anything wrong with either position. I think conferences like the SAA or MWC are great examples of D3 athletics. The schools are like minded, the student athletes tend to be comparable, the conferences are competitive and interesting overall. I also see the point of having a geographically compact conference, regardless of membership, because it cuts travel time and expenses, issues that are and should be important to D3 members. And I see conferences that are simply marriages of convenience. And there is nothing wrong with that as it provides easy scheduling and guaranteed opponents and schedules in areas where that could be difficult.
There are good reasons to keep STU in the MIAC. There are also valid reasons to say they don't fit. It's really a battle over what the MIAC wants to be. Right and wrong don't really apply, though I have to admit, voting out a founding member who didn't want to leave and hadn't done anything wrong from an NCAA rules point of view, would be a tough pill for me to swallow if I were sitting in that room.
Quote from: EB2319 on April 09, 2019, 11:05:10 AM
Can someone educate me on the backstory? I see they're routinely smoking everyone in football, but what's different about the school compared to their league peers, and how have they changed in the last 20 years? I'm not familiar with the conference at all, and as someone pointed out, there are plenty of other conferences with outliers. For example, I'm not sure what Stevens has in common with future MAC-Freedom conference mates Delaware Valley or FDU-Florham.
In short, the MIAC has some very prestigious academic institutions. Carleton being top tier liberal arts in the nation. Macalaster and St. Olaf not far behind. Schools with large endowments that divert very little to no money to athletics, hence St. Olaf alumni and others raising the majority of funds to build new ice arena. Appears St. Olaf did invest some capital. St. Thomas has a lot of funds given to athletics. St. Thomas is also much larger than other MIAC schools and has, from an outsider perspective, easier academics. Some MIAC schools do not believe St. Thomas fits the MIAC values. The MIAC 4 core values are, quality athletics, academics, student-athlete well-being, integrity. And their Mission statement, "The Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference strives to guide, govern and support fair and equitable athletic competition and promote student-athlete well-being among its members. The Conference recognizes and celebrates the important contribution competitive athletics can make to the quality of an education experienced in a context in which the academic program is paramount."
There are two questions at work in this matter. One concerns UST. At this point, given the school's size and scope, its peers are such fellow mid-sized urban midwestern Catholic universities as St. Louis, DePaul, Dayton, Creighton, Loyola IL, and Marquette, rather than St. Mary's MN and St. John's, to say nothing of Carleton, St. Olaf, and Macalester. The question is whether St. Thomas wants or is willing to go the next step and join its institutional peers, or if it insists upon maintaining its status quo as a big fish in a small pond (both in terms of enrollment -- I think that at this point NYU is the only D3 private school that has a larger undergrad enrollment than UST -- and in terms of all-sports competitiveness).
The other question concerns UST's fellow MIAC members, and whether tradition and the chance to regularly test themselves against top-notch competition outweighs UST's across-the-board dominance (the Tommies are actually more dominant in women's sports than in men's sports, but it's nevertheless the best athletic department in the league in terms of men's sports) as well as some of the bad blood that's emerged between UST and some of the other schools both on and off the field of play.
A few thoughts here. First, now I know a lot more about UST than I knew before. I didn't realize it was so big, which does help to explain the issues it might face in finding a conference if it were expelled from the MIAC (assuming it doesn't try to join the Big East, which I think would be a bit of a jump).
With that said: UST finished 16th among D3 schools in the Learfield Director's Cup last year; the next-highest finishing MIAC schools were GAC (43rd) and Carleton (68th). The 15 schools that finished ahead of UST have the following numbers of undergraduates, according to Google:
Williams 2080
MIT 4602
CMS 1328 + 844 + 973 = 3145
Emory 8079
Midd 2561
WashU 7604
Hop 5615
Tufts 5541
Amherst 1836
Ithaca 6969
SUNY Geneseo 5494
Chicago 6286
W&L 1890
IWU 1893
CNU 5051
Several of these schools are in the 2000-3000 undergrad range that is typical of the non-UST schools in the MIAC, and if I go a little further down the Learfield list, Stevens in 17th has 2892 undergrads and Wartburg in 18th has 1600. So it's certainly possible for schools of that size to compete with UST across the board. The question they need to answer for themselves is whether they want to try (which I realize is essentially the same question that Mr. Sager posed).
If St. Thomas is that large and looking to expand its national reach, and if the MIAC is successful in ousting STU, and if STU wants to continue to be a D3 school, perhaps the Tommies should consider petitioning to join the UAA. There are a couple of schools in that conference that are relatively close to STU (Chicago and Wash U), so it might be a reasonable fit.
The problem is football. The UAA doesn't offer much in that regard. Many of the football playing UAA schools are affiliated with other conferences (for example, Chicago in the MWC and Wash U in the CCIW, etc.). Perhaps they could join the UAA for other sports and play football as an independent or look to another more regional conference for affiliate membership in football. Or perhaps they could join the UAA and persuade the other schools that play football as an affiliate member of a different conference to play within the UAA.
OR, maybe they look to a regional D2 conference like the GLIAC or the GLVC. Those would certainly be better fits from a travel perspective than the UAA.
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
If St. Thomas is that large and looking to expand its national reach, and if the MIAC is successful in ousting STU, and if STU wants to continue to be a D3 school, perhaps the Tommies should consider petitioning to join the UAA. There are a couple of schools in that conference that are relatively close to STU (Chicago and Wash U), so it might be a reasonable fit.
The problem is football. The UAA doesn't offer much in that regard. Many of the football playing UAA schools are affiliated with other conferences (for example, Chicago in the MWC and Wash U in the CCIW, etc.). Perhaps they could join the UAA for other sports and play football as an independent or look to another more regional conference for affiliate membership in football. Or perhaps they could join the UAA and persuade the other schools that play football as an affiliate member of a different conference to play within the UAA.
OR, maybe they look to a regional D2 conference like the GLIAC or the GLVC. Those would certainly be better fits from a travel perspective than the UAA.
The UAA would have no interest in STU at this time. The academic profile is not even remotely compatible and the UAA is very much a mission and values grouping of schools.
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
If St. Thomas is that large and looking to expand its national reach, and if the MIAC is successful in ousting STU, and if STU wants to continue to be a D3 school, perhaps the Tommies should consider petitioning to join the UAA. There are a couple of schools in that conference that are relatively close to STU (Chicago and Wash U), so it might be a reasonable fit.
The problem is football. The UAA doesn't offer much in that regard. Many of the football playing UAA schools are affiliated with other conferences (for example, Chicago in the MWC and Wash U in the CCIW, etc.). Perhaps they could join the UAA for other sports and play football as an independent or look to another more regional conference for affiliate membership in football. Or perhaps they could join the UAA and persuade the other schools that play football as an affiliate member of a different conference to play within the UAA.
The problem isn't football. The problem is academics, mission, and institutional reach. UST is a Catholic regional classroom-based university of modest academic status. The UAA schools are high-powered national research universities of secular orientation, massive financial resources -- most of them have endowments that range into the billions -- and an elite academic status that is up there with the Ivies and the NESCAC. Each of the UAA schools is a member of the American Association of Universities, the exclusive club that contains the sixty or so top research universities in the nation. UST isn't anywhere near being a university of AAU status, in large part because it isn't even a research university to begin with.
Realistically, the only other D3 schools that would be a fit for the UAA are Johns Hopkins, which used to be a UAA member before opting out, and perhaps MIT. (Caltech has the academic, research, and financial bona-fides, but Caltech wants no part of making its intercollegiate sports be as comprehensive and as competitive as those of the UAA schools.)
If UST really wants to stay D3, its best bet might be to apply for membership in the WIAC. Believe it or not, there's no rule in the WIAC constitution that says that full members have to be branch campuses of the University of Wisconsin system -- or so I've been told by a Wisconsin-based D3 athletics insider. It would mean that men's soccer would have to play as an independent, but UWW and UWP have shown that that's a viable option.
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AMOR, maybe they look to a regional D2 conference like the GLIAC or the GLVC. Those would certainly be better fits from a travel perspective than the UAA.
The D2 possibility for UST that's being floated right now on the MIAC football board is the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference. The NSIC already contains several Minnesota-based members, and it's a 14-school league that is about to lose a member (Augustana SD) to D1.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 12, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
The problem isn't football. The problem is academics, mission, and institutional reach. UST is a Catholic regional classroom-based university of modest academic status. The UAA schools are high-powered national research universities of secular orientation, massive financial resources -- most of them have endowments that range into the billions -- and an elite academic status that is up there with the Ivies and the NESCAC. Each of the UAA schools is a member of the American Association of Universities, the exclusive club that contains the sixty or so top research universities in the nation. UST isn't anywhere near being a university of AAU status, in large part because it isn't even a research university to begin with.
Realistically, the only other D3 schools that would be a fit for the UAA are Johns Hopkins, which used to be a UAA member before opting out, and perhaps MIT. (Caltech has the academic, research, and financial bona-fides, but Caltech wants no part of making its intercollegiate sports be as comprehensive and as competitive as those of the UAA schools.)
If UST really wants to stay D3, its best bet might be to apply for membership in the WIAC. Believe it or not, there's no rule in the WIAC constitution that says that full members have to be branch campuses of the University of Wisconsin system -- or so I've been told by a Wisconsin-based D3 athletics insider. It would mean that men's soccer would have to play as an independent, but UWW and UWP have shown that that's a viable option.
I thought about the WIAC for STU, but I think it would be a stretch for both parties in that the WIAC likely wouldn't want to have a medium sized Catholic school in general, much less one that could keep a school like UW Whitewater from qualifying for the football playoffs. The WIAC schools left the NCHA in hockey a few years back so that they could just play conference hockey among themselves under the WIAC only umbrella. I think it might be a stretch for STU to be in a conference with all state schools, which is why I was thinking about the UAA as an option...but I understand that it probably isn't likely going to happen for the reasons you stated.
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AMThe D2 possibility for UST that's being floated right now on the MIAC football board is the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference. The NSIC already contains several Minnesota-based members, and it's a 14-school league that is about to lose a member (Augustana SD) to D1.
Interesting, but it's almost like the WIAC in terms of the preponderance of state schools in its membership. With Augustana leaving, there are only two other private schools in that soon-to-be 13 school conference. At least in the GLVC you've got similarly sized private schools like Lewis and Maryville and, to a lesser extent, Rockhurst and Bellarmine.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 12, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
If St. Thomas is that large and looking to expand its national reach, and if the MIAC is successful in ousting STU, and if STU wants to continue to be a D3 school, perhaps the Tommies should consider petitioning to join the UAA. There are a couple of schools in that conference that are relatively close to STU (Chicago and Wash U), so it might be a reasonable fit.
The problem is football. The UAA doesn't offer much in that regard. Many of the football playing UAA schools are affiliated with other conferences (for example, Chicago in the MWC and Wash U in the CCIW, etc.). Perhaps they could join the UAA for other sports and play football as an independent or look to another more regional conference for affiliate membership in football. Or perhaps they could join the UAA and persuade the other schools that play football as an affiliate member of a different conference to play within the UAA.
Realistically, the only other D3 schools that would be a fit for the UAA are Johns Hopkins, which used to be a UAA member before opting out, and perhaps MIT. (Caltech has the academic, research, and financial bona-fides, but Caltech wants no part of making its intercollegiate sports be as comprehensive and as competitive as those of the UAA schools.)
There's one more D3 school that would be a potential fit for the UAA: Tufts, which as a relatively big school (by D3 standards) in an urban area has much more in common with the UAA schools than with the other NESCAC schools. Not that I actually see Tufts going anywhere.
Yep, you're right. In fact, as a highly-respected urban research university of about 6,000 undergrads and 6,000 grad students, Tufts is actually a better fit for the UAA than it is for the NESCAC, which is otherwise strictly a circuit of small liberal-arts colleges. But, yeah, I'd be surprised if Tufts ever abandoned the NESCAC for the UAA.
UAA schools are Tier 1 research institutions. The limitation is even more than people realize. Tufts and MIT are certainly listed as being in that genre, I believe. JHU is certainly there as well (and I've been told the UAA would love to have Hopkins back in to be back in the DC/Baltimore market). I have been told there is another school who is making significant moves to become a Tier 1 institution (and they are located in a major metropolitan area), but realistically (IMO) there needs to be two institutions available before the UAA would think about expanding.
I also don't think the UAA would want to have multiple members in the same city (i.e. Tufts, MIT, and Brandeis). Maybe two? Maybe?
The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.
So yes, there are some options out there ... but that doesn't mean they are the right fit for the conference or for those individual institutions. I think the UAA is on the border of expanding and folding depending on what prism you look through. One school leaves (for whatever reasons) and this grand experiment may end. That said, I think the chances of finding other members is just as likely. (No, I am NOT saying either will happen; simply saying I could see either play out especially in this age of shrinking budgets and smarter thinking.)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
I have been told there is another school who is making significant moves to become a Tier 1 institution (and they are located in a major metropolitan area), but realistically (IMO) there needs to be two institutions available before the UAA would think about expanding.
UT-Dallas?
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.
You're thinking of the AAU -- the Association of American Universities -- which includes the sixty most prestigious research universities in the United States (plus two Canadian universities). All of the members of the UAA are in the AAU (as is Johns Hopkins); the last UAA school to be voted into this elite club, Brandeis, was voted in in 1985, the year before the UAA was founded. Chicago and Johns Hopkins are among the fourteen institutions that founded the AAU back in 1900.
Surprisingly, Tufts is not an AAU member, as I had thought it was. I would imagine, though, that Tufts would be among the likeliest of candidates out there as long as it's reaching the federal-research-grants criterion. The three non-UAA D3 institutions that are AAU members are Johns Hopkins, MIT, and Caltech. I'm fairly certain that the pool of potential UAA members begins and ends with those three schools, as I can't imagine the UAA accepting a non-AAU member -- not even Tufts at this point. (There are two former AAU members within the D3 ranks, Clark and Catholic. Clark walked away voluntarily from AAU membership in 1999 rather than waiting around to be kicked out, because it didn't have the mammoth resources necessary to maintain AAU status, and I suspect that Catholic left for similar reasons in 2002.)
https://www.aau.edu/
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 17, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.
You're thinking of the AAU -- the Association of American Universities -- which includes the sixty most prestigious research universities in the United States (plus two Canadian universities). All of the members of the UAA are in the AAU (as is Johns Hopkins); the last UAA school to be voted into this elite club, Brandeis, was voted in in 1985, the year before the UAA was founded. Chicago and Johns Hopkins are among the fourteen institutions that founded the AAU back in 1900.
Surprisingly, Tufts is not an AAU member, as I had thought it was. I would imagine, though, that Tufts would be among the likeliest of candidates out there as long as it's reaching the federal-research-grants criterion. The three non-UAA D3 institutions that are AAU members are Johns Hopkins, MIT, and Caltech. I'm fairly certain that the pool of potential UAA members begins and ends with those three schools, as I can't imagine the UAA accepting a non-AAU member -- not even Tufts at this point. (There are two former AAU members within the D3 ranks, Clark and Catholic. Clark walked away voluntarily from AAU membership in 1999 rather than waiting around to be kicked out, because it didn't have the mammoth resources necessary to maintain AAU status, and I suspect that Catholic left for similar reasons in 2002.)
https://www.aau.edu/
That's it! Thank you. And that is the reason I knew Tufts wasn't a candidate.
Again, they would love to have Hopkins back in - but that isn't happening. MIT i think is a challenge with Brandeis already "repping" Boston. Caltech is certainly an interesting idea, but I don't think Caltech has any interest considering their athletics scenario (though, improving) and other factors.
Per the guess on who the other institution is ... I am not going to say right now as I don't think it is my information to share. I also don't think it would happen unless there was a second one to join them for it to make any sense especially when it comes to how schedules are done (odd number really doesn't work in the UAA for scheduling).
Any word on the meeting today?
Quote from: gbpuckfan on April 18, 2019, 02:16:39 PM
Any word on the meeting today?
The MIAC football board has the best info so far via a twitter feed. Keep an eye there.
The conference presidents agreed to move the discussion to their May meetings and put it on the agenda.
IMO - they didn't have the votes this time around, but maybe have some who indicated they are still on the fence.
St. Thomas is "involuntarily removed" from the MIAC. The oust is official.
According to the release, St. Thomas will continue to compete as full members of the MIAC for the 2019/20 and 2020/21 academic years.
https://www.miacathletics.com/general/2018-19/releases/20190510vxuc8l
QuoteBLOOMINGTON, Minn. -- After extensive membership discussions, the University of St. Thomas will be involuntarily removed from membership in the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (MIAC). The MIAC Presidents' Council cites athletic competitive parity in the conference as a primary concern. St. Thomas will begin a multi-year transition immediately and meanwhile is eligible to compete as a full member of the MIAC through the end of spring 2021.
St. Thomas is one of seven founding members of the MIAC and will leave the conference in good standing with a long and appreciated history of academic and athletic success.
In other words, they kicked our butts and we won't play 'em anymore.
That's the bottom line. Admittedly, they have more than dominated across the board. I wonder how many (if any) other D3 schools could show a comparable dominance across so many sports. I don't have the numbers handy, but I wouldn't be surprised if Messiah turned out to be dominant in several sports in their conference(s), which I type that way since the MAC includes two divisions (not sure of that term) that sometimes combine in certain sports. They don't combine in soccer. Nor does Messiah have a football team. However, again without numbers in front of me, I would be shocked if they were anywhere nearly as dominant as STU has been in their conference for a long time.
There are some leagues in which a single member comes close to the all-sports dominance that UST has had in the MIAC over the past 10-15 years in terms of men's side, women's side, and combined -- Wartburg in the ARC, Washington & Lee in the ODAC, and Johns Hopkins in the Centennial have all been mentioned on d3boards.com during this past week, as those schools win (real or imagined) all-sports trophies in their respective leagues on a regular basis. But UST beats them all for the sheer volume of conference titles won over that period.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 23, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
There are some leagues in which a single member comes close to the all-sports dominance that UST has had in the MIAC over the past 10-15 years in terms of men's side, women's side, and combined -- Wartburg in the ARC, Washington & Lee in the ODAC, and Johns Hopkins in the Centennial have all been mentioned on d3boards.com during this past week, as those schools win (real or imagined) all-sports trophies in their respective leagues on a regular basis. But UST beats them all for the sheer volume of conference titles won over that period.
While conference titles are one way of looking at this, another way is to look at points in the Learfield Directors' Cup standings.
Here are the top two schools in the Centennial, MIAC and NEWMAC over each of the last five years.
Centennial2014-15: Hopkins 1016.75, Haverford 322.5
2015-16: Hopkins 703, Haverford 400.5
2016-17: Hopkins 864.5, F&M 350
2017-18: Hopkins 883.25, F&M 306.5
2018-19 (to date): Hopkins 804.25, Haverford 238
MIAC2014-15: UST 628.5, St. Olaf 427.5
2015-16: UST 780, St. Olaf 447
2016-17: UST 588.5, GAC 339
2017-18: UST 650.25, GAC 384.5
2018-19 (to date): UST 596, Carleton 281
NEWMAC2014-15: MIT 961, Springfield 420
2015-16: MIT 843, Springfield 383
2016-17: MIT 667.25, Babson 519.5
2017-18: MIT 1001.5, Springfield 525
2018-19 (to date): MIT 573.25, Springfield 282.5
In four of the five years, Hopkins's margin over the second-place Centennial team was larger than UST's margin over the second-place MIAC team, and in three of the five years, MIT's margin over the second-place NEWMAC team was larger than UST's margin. Yet I hear nothing about throwing Hopkins out of the Centennial or MIT out of the NEWMAC.
Quote from: Buck O. on May 24, 2019, 10:40:45 AM
In four of the five years, Hopkins's margin over the second-place Centennial team was larger than UST's margin over the second-place MIAC team, and in three of the five years, MIT's margin over the second-place NEWMAC team was larger than UST's margin. Yet I hear nothing about throwing Hopkins out of the Centennial or MIT out of the NEWMAC.
Probably because these schools haven't done things that have pissed off their conference group. The Centennial knew what it was getting when it admitted JHU. JHU is basically what JHU was in 1981. Same with MIT. These schools, while drastically different from their conference peers, are what they've been for a long time. UST, arguably, is not what it was and is trying to be even more different still. Now not all those changes have happened recently, the school reached mostly it's current enrollment 15 years ago. But the addition of various graduate schools, the possible addition of more, the linking with 2 year colleges, the drive to be a regional university, is not what UST was 25 years ago. They are different. Some of their conference peers have some of those components, but there is no arguing who the outlier is in that conference.
Something about UST rubbed some of their "peers" drastically wrong. UST either didn't recognize it or didn't care to fix it. It festered until enough momentum came about to throw out an ultimatum. Most of the rest of the conference decided saving UST wasn't worth the risk of more members leaving. So basically, UST was the unpopular kid at the party. The really unpopular kid with some, and the less popular than the other option with most.
While forcing the ultimatum is definitely the responsibility of those who wanted them out, the outcome demonstrates something went off kilter at UST as well. Either they didn't care how much they were pissing off their supposed peers, or they weren't smart enough to realize they had pushed to a breaking point. I'm not sure which one is worse, but you can't just ignore that if UST really wanted to stay in the MIAC, they blew it over years of building resentment. If they didn't, then they forced this issue in a very sloppy way. But either situation doesn't absolve UST completely.
Quote from: Buck O. on May 24, 2019, 10:40:45 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 23, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
There are some leagues in which a single member comes close to the all-sports dominance that UST has had in the MIAC over the past 10-15 years in terms of men's side, women's side, and combined -- Wartburg in the ARC, Washington & Lee in the ODAC, and Johns Hopkins in the Centennial have all been mentioned on d3boards.com during this past week, as those schools win (real or imagined) all-sports trophies in their respective leagues on a regular basis. But UST beats them all for the sheer volume of conference titles won over that period.
While conference titles are one way of looking at this, another way is to look at points in the Learfield Directors' Cup standings.
Here are the top two schools in the Centennial, MIAC and NEWMAC over each of the last five years.
Centennial
2014-15: Hopkins 1016.75, Haverford 322.5
2015-16: Hopkins 703, Haverford 400.5
2016-17: Hopkins 864.5, F&M 350
2017-18: Hopkins 883.25, F&M 306.5
2018-19 (to date): Hopkins 804.25, Haverford 238
MIAC
2014-15: UST 628.5, St. Olaf 427.5
2015-16: UST 780, St. Olaf 447
2016-17: UST 588.5, GAC 339
2017-18: UST 650.25, GAC 384.5
2018-19 (to date): UST 596, Carleton 281
NEWMAC
2014-15: MIT 961, Springfield 420
2015-16: MIT 843, Springfield 383
2016-17: MIT 667.25, Babson 519.5
2017-18: MIT 1001.5, Springfield 525
2018-19 (to date): MIT 573.25, Springfield 282.5
In four of the five years, Hopkins's margin over the second-place Centennial team was larger than UST's margin over the second-place MIAC team, and in three of the five years, MIT's margin over the second-place NEWMAC team was larger than UST's margin. Yet I hear nothing about throwing Hopkins out of the Centennial or MIT out of the NEWMAC.
I don't how many people inside or outside of the press are even aware of the Learfield Directors' Cup, though. In terms of competitive minutiae, perhaps they ought to make their acquaintance with it; St. Thomas kind of sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of the types of schools that tend to land in the LDC top ten every year. But what I've seen in the press is the citation of UST's overwhelming dominance in the MIAC in terms of conference titles won; the Tommies won 47% (155) of all MIAC championships (both team and individual sports) awarded from 2003-2018. And over the past five years (2013-18), UST has won 62 MIAC championships, which is 56% of the overall conference total. That easily outstrips the championships rate for MIT in the NEWMAC, Johns Hopkins in the Centennial, Wartburg in the ARC, or Washington & Lee in the ODAC.
Of course, the reason why I've seen those championships facts mentioned in the press is that the MIAC has posted them on its website. One could argue that that's the conference's way of being helpful by providing background information behind the decision to oust the Tommies. One could also argue that it's a cleverly passive way of applying spin to the narrative. ;)
Quote from: jknezek on May 24, 2019, 11:02:44 AMProbably because these schools haven't done things that have pissed off their conference group. The Centennial knew what it was getting when it admitted JHU. JHU is basically what JHU was in 1981. Same with MIT. These schools, while drastically different from their conference peers, are what they've been for a long time. UST, arguably, is not what it was and is trying to be even more different still. Now not all those changes have happened recently, the school reached mostly it's current enrollment 15 years ago. But the addition of various graduate schools, the possible addition of more, the linking with 2 year colleges, the drive to be a regional university, is not what UST was 25 years ago. They are different. Some of their conference peers have some of those components, but there is no arguing who the outlier is in that conference.
Something about UST rubbed some of their "peers" drastically wrong. UST either didn't recognize it or didn't care to fix it. It festered until enough momentum came about to throw out an ultimatum. Most of the rest of the conference decided saving UST wasn't worth the risk of more members leaving. So basically, UST was the unpopular kid at the party. The really unpopular kid with some, and the less popular than the other option with most.
While forcing the ultimatum is definitely the responsibility of those who wanted them out, the outcome demonstrates something went off kilter at UST as well. Either they didn't care how much they were pissing off their supposed peers, or they weren't smart enough to realize they had pushed to a breaking point. I'm not sure which one is worse, but you can't just ignore that if UST really wanted to stay in the MIAC, they blew it over years of building resentment. If they didn't, then they forced this issue in a very sloppy way. But either situation doesn't absolve UST completely.
Agree with all of this, and I'd add that Johns Hopkins and MIT brought value to their respective conferences in terms of their academic cachet. Not that the other schools of the Centennial and the NEWMAC aren't highly regarded in their own right, but being members of the ultra-exclusive Association of American Universities (in the case of Johns Hopkins, a founding member) puts JHU and MIT on a different strata entirely, although NEWMAC member Clark used to be an AAU member as well. Their presence enhances the rest of the members of those two leagues by a sort of reflective prestige that adds to the prestige that Centennial and NEWMAC schools already carry in and of themselves. It's the same sort of phenomenon that's helped keep Caltech in the SCIAC for 80 years, in spite of the fact that the Beavers have been total athletic deadweight in that league for all or most of that time.
UST doesn't bring that sort of academic luster to the table in the MIAC -- in fact, the consensus of observers seems to be that the presidents of the more academically elite MIAC members are the ringleaders behind Tomtoss.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 24, 2019, 12:16:41 PM
UST doesn't bring that sort of academic luster to the table in the MIAC -- in fact, the consensus of observers seems to be that the presidents of the more academically elite MIAC members are the ringleaders behind Tomtoss.
This has more to do with the possibility that those schools could have a landing spot in the MWC than it does with UST not measuring up academically. UST by all accounts is right behind that top tier in terms of academics. Not elite, but not a slouch either.
Yeah, I think the academics are being blown out of proportion a bit. If you look at USN rankings, they come in ahead of a bunch of pretty decent Unis. To me the most obvious issue was outlined quite well by jknezek. They've pretty dramatically altered course over the last 2 decades and by the accounts I've read, they did very little to politic within the conference to soften the blow of their aspirations to become a larger footprint school.
I mean, when you are beating an in-conference opponent 97-0, you are putting a target on your back.
Quote from: jamtoTommie on May 24, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 24, 2019, 12:16:41 PM
UST doesn't bring that sort of academic luster to the table in the MIAC -- in fact, the consensus of observers seems to be that the presidents of the more academically elite MIAC members are the ringleaders behind Tomtoss.
This has more to do with the possibility that those schools could have a landing spot in the MWC than it does with UST not measuring up academically. UST by all accounts is right behind that top tier in terms of academics. Not elite, but not a slouch either.
I didn't say that Tomtoss had anything to do with UST not measuring up academically to the rest of the MIAC. I've haven't seen a post, column, blog entry, tweet, what have you, by
anyone that has made that argument. What I said was that UST:MIAC =/= JHU:Cent or MIT:NEWMAC in terms of relative academic status. And that's a different thing altogether.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on May 24, 2019, 01:58:47 PM
Yeah, I think the academics are being blown out of proportion a bit.
Again, I don't think that you've caught the drift of my post. I didn't say that there was anything wrong with UST's academic status. There clearly isn't. What I said was that UST does not bring the sort of heightened academic cachet to the MIAC that other athletically-dominant schools bring to
their respective leagues, namely Johns Hopkins to the Centennial and MIT to the NEWMAC. That's all.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 24, 2019, 05:14:36 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on May 24, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 24, 2019, 12:16:41 PM
UST doesn't bring that sort of academic luster to the table in the MIAC -- in fact, the consensus of observers seems to be that the presidents of the more academically elite MIAC members are the ringleaders behind Tomtoss.
This has more to do with the possibility that those schools could have a landing spot in the MWC than it does with UST not measuring up academically. UST by all accounts is right behind that top tier in terms of academics. Not elite, but not a slouch either.
I didn't say that Tomtoss had anything to do with UST not measuring up academically to the rest of the MIAC. I've haven't seen a post, column, blog entry, tweet, what have you, by anyone that has made that argument. What I said was that UST:MIAC =/= JHU:Cent or MIT:NEWMAC in terms of relative academic status. And that's a different thing altogether.
Agreed then, I may have read something into your post (I didn't go back and look at the full context just now) that wasn't there, but I've seen plenty of posts (not necessarily here, but a few on other football-related forums I used to frequent) and tweets suggesting that very argument, so I may be a bit sensitive to it.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 24, 2019, 12:16:41 PM
I don't how many people inside or outside of the press are even aware of the Learfield Directors' Cup, though.
Just to be clear, I don't think that many people are familiar with it, either. I just used it as an easily available proxy for how successful a school's athletic teams have been.
I'm a little late to the discussion here but I think that if the MIAC had not kicked STU out, the MIAC might have gone through some other changes in the near future. Word on the street is that several MIAC schools have been looking to leave for a few years (I wasn't aware of why until this story came out) and were in discussions with other conferences. I think that now that STU has been booted the MIAC is likely to stay together. Ultimately I think that's good for most student-athletes.
On the Learfield Cup even with a very sub-par performance from the Loras men in soccer in the fall, the Duhawks still finished 14th overall, just a few spots behind STU. I would love to see a chart comparing the endowments, enrollments and Learfield rankings. I have a feeling Loras would be a huge outlier. Wartburg, too, maybe.
Quote from: Dubuquer on June 10, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
[...]
On the Learfield Cup even with a very sub-par performance from the Loras men in soccer in the fall, the Duhawks still finished 14th overall, just a few spots behind STU. I would love to see a chart comparing the endowments, enrollments and Learfield rankings. I have a feeling Loras would be a huge outlier. Wartburg, too, maybe.
With an endowment in the range of $40M (per NACUBO (https://www.nacubo.org/-/media/Nacubo/Documents/research/2018-Endowment-Market-Values--Final.ashx?la=en&hash=31CF91E74EAAB91288E53E2BCD629C35710C1C03)), I'd venture to say you are correct. Here are the top 20 schools and endowments:
Williams - $2.75B
Johns Hopkins - $4.33B
WUSTL - $7.59B
Middlebury - $1.12B
Emory - $7.29B
MIT - $16.5B
Tufts - $1.85B
Amherst - $2.38B
UChicago - $7.93B
UWEC - $73.3M
StThomas (MN) - $519M
CMS -$ 835M
UWLaX - no separate endowment found
Wesleyan (CT) - $990M
UW-W - no separate endowment found
Loras - $39.1MW&L - $1.60B
Bowdoin - $1.63B
Ithaca - $316M
SUNY-Geneseo - no separate endowment found
The only school that's close is UW-Eau Claire, but of course they have the resources of the state to draw on in addition to their own endowment.
Quote from: Dubuquer on June 10, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
I'm a little late to the discussion here but I think that if the MIAC had not kicked STU out, the MIAC might have gone through some other changes in the near future. Word on the street is that several MIAC schools have been looking to leave for a few years (I wasn't aware of why until this story came out) and were in discussions with other conferences. I think that now that STU has been booted the MIAC is likely to stay together. Ultimately I think that's good for most student-athletes.
On the Learfield Cup even with a very sub-par performance from the Loras men in soccer in the fall, the Duhawks still finished 14th overall, just a few spots behind STU. I would love to see a chart comparing the endowments, enrollments and Learfield rankings. I have a feeling Loras would be a huge outlier. Wartburg, too, maybe.
Those schools who were thinking about leaving should have left instead.
First off, they used that threat to get others to capitulate to kick out UST. They made it seem like the MIAC was on the verge of a full split and it would cause problems ... I find that completely overblown.
Secondly, leaving to another conference (the MWC) would have been a far classier thing to do AND it would have maybe put them in better circumstances. If these schools think that because UST will be gone in a few years that suddenly THEY become more competitive ... I've got a bridge in New York I would LOVE to sell them.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 22, 2019, 10:49:20 PM
Quote from: Dubuquer on June 10, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
I'm a little late to the discussion here but I think that if the MIAC had not kicked STU out, the MIAC might have gone through some other changes in the near future. Word on the street is that several MIAC schools have been looking to leave for a few years (I wasn't aware of why until this story came out) and were in discussions with other conferences. I think that now that STU has been booted the MIAC is likely to stay together. Ultimately I think that's good for most student-athletes.
On the Learfield Cup even with a very sub-par performance from the Loras men in soccer in the fall, the Duhawks still finished 14th overall, just a few spots behind STU. I would love to see a chart comparing the endowments, enrollments and Learfield rankings. I have a feeling Loras would be a huge outlier. Wartburg, too, maybe.
Those schools who were thinking about leaving should have left instead.
First off, they used that threat to get others to capitulate to kick out UST. They made it seem like the MIAC was on the verge of a full split and it would cause problems ... I find that completely overblown.
Secondly, leaving to another conference (the MWC) would have been a far classier thing to do AND it would have maybe put them in better circumstances.
Disagree completely. Not about the "far classier" thing -- I'm not making judgment calls either way on Tomtoss, as I see it as a "not my circus, not my monkeys" issue -- but about the "better circumstances" thing. Travel for St. Olaf, Macalester, and Carleton would be completely ridiculous if they joined the MWC. I charted it all out on the MIAC football board, and it turns out that distances would be so great between the three Minnesota schools and their new conference peers that it would necessitate overnight hotel stays on multiple occasions in multiple sports -- which not only means ramped-up budgets for travel, it more importantly means a self-sabotage of the principle of local competition (more time spent on campus = better focus on academics) that was driving the whole D4 movement of which MWC schools were important supporters a decade ago. Lengthy road trips that take student-athletes far, far off campus while school is in session, especially when they involve overnights, subvert the very idea of being a D3 school that makes a big deal out of its academically elite status. And it's not as though a swollen MWC could imitate the UAA with its flights-and-proctors system; the eight-school UAA, with its tidy travel-partner pairings and its urban locations within relatively close proximity to major airports, is a very different beast altogether than the MWC-plus-the-Minnesota-Three would be.
Besides, I haven't read or heard of any noise coming out of the MWC that the Minnesota Three would even be welcome to join the league. (Macalester's status as an associate MWC member for football isn't really germane to this.) Perhaps you've heard differently through your sources, Dave, but I suspect that the MWC schools are just as aware of the potential headaches as the Minnesota Three schools are.
I don't believe the MWC was the only conference being considered. Another Regional Conference may have been a possibility for some of the southern MIAC schools.
Yes, yours. ;)
But the ARC would bring a similar set of travel headaches, albeit not as bad as the MWC would offer, without providing the academic cachet of the MWC in exchange.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on August 22, 2019, 11:34:42 PM
Lengthy road trips that take student-athletes far, far off campus while school is in session, especially when they involve overnights, subvert the very idea of being a D3 school that makes a big deal out of its academically elite status.
I agree that this is a very true statement and it's what makes the thing so ironic, as these schools forced St Thomas out of the geographic conference that they consider to be such an important priority, for the sake of competitive parity. It's really kind of funny.
Now it looks like St. Thomas might be headed to D1:
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/27767474/university-st-thomas-booted-d-iii-success-gets-division-invite
That would be a particular coup for UST men's soccer, since the Tommies would be the only D1 program in the Land of 10,000 Lakes in that sport. The University of Minnesota doesn't have varsity men's soccer. (It does have a women's soccer program.)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 04, 2019, 04:30:49 PM
That would be a particular coup for UST men's soccer, since the Tommies would be the only D1 program in the Land of 10,000 Lakes in that sport. The University of Minnesota doesn't have varsity men's soccer. (It does have a women's soccer program.)
Agreed. MIAC schools have been fortunate to pull in a lot of the states top soccer talent due to a lack of a D1 offering. This could have big implication in recruitment for the MIAC schools if/when St. Thomas moves to D1.