I may be the only parent with a high school player starting the recruiting process . . . but in case I'm not, I thought a thread where we could ask questions, share info etc might be helpful.
I have a question: on an unofficial visit to a d3 school, can my son participate in a team practice? (My son wrote to a coach, who replied that "at the very least" they would meet with him -- what more could they do??) (Yes, my son can/will clarify with the coach, but I'm impatient, and want to have an idea of what to possibly expect. Thanks!
There really is no 'official' or 'unofficial' visit to a D3 school. Generally that is D1 terminology referring to who pays for the visit. A coach asking a kid to visit campus is as official as it gets.
No he most likely cannot participate in a coach run practice. If it is an 'unofficial' captain run practice I suppose the answer is yes but without the coaches there the value is questionable. Of course coaches do get current player input on the quality of players that attend camps, etc. The best way to practice for real with much of a team is to go to a camp at that school. Usually there are many current players and/or incoming recruits at these camps.
Unless anything has changed significantly in the last 10 years, D3 coaches actively recruit high school players and invite players of interest to visit during the season. Typically an invited recruit spends the night with a team member, meets with the coach, and observes a practice. I believe it is against D3 rules for a recruit to participate in a coach-run practice. As nescacfan94 indicates, the recruit pays his own way to and from the visit, but will typically receive a voucher to eat at the dining hall with the player(s) he's staying with.
there are official visits in D3 that involve the player spending about 24 hours with the team on campus. players can practice with the team in an environment where the coaches are not present, and have not directed the team to train.
OP should not be shy to ask these kinds of questions to the coaching staff, or better yet, have your son take the initiative to communicate and get that conversation going with the staff.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 10, 2019, 04:41:59 PM
I may be the only parent with a high school player starting the recruiting process . . . but in case I'm not, I thought a thread where we could ask questions, share info etc might be helpful.
I have a question: on an unofficial visit to a d3 school, can my son participate in a team practice? (My son wrote to a coach, who replied that "at the very least" they would meet with him -- what more could they do??) (Yes, my son can/will clarify with the coach, but I'm impatient, and want to have an idea of what to possibly expect. Thanks!
I can't point you to a specific rule, but I suspect a practice with the team during the trip would not be permitted. Simple answer: liability. If your son should get injured at an official team event the university will be on the hook, unless I guess you're asked to sign a waiver beforehand. Without a waiver there is virtually 0 chance that he will be permitted to get on the field.
Good points by all above.
Some coaches have been known to invite a recruit to a game, which might involve sitting in on pre-game meetings, watching warmups from the bench, and the game from the stands (not the bench!).
Coaches sometimes invite kids to campus and gauge player interest in the school by the response. Does the player jump at the chance to visit? Coaches have big lists of kids. They want good players, but they also want players that want to come to their school and play for their program. And players than can get in to the school without a tip are especially helpful.
Similarly, players can ask the coach if they can visit, and based upon the response of the coach, the player might be able to determine whether s/he is on the coaches' short list.
Some coaches give out offers quite early, like winter/spring of Junior year. Others wait for D1 players to decide to go D3. Lots of D3 schools already have many players committed for the class of 2024. Maybe even 2025!
Finally, consider this.... 200-20-5. General rule of thumb for D3 recruiting. Coaches keep a list of 200 players, 20 they want (obviously ranked in some order), and they hope to get 5 from that list of 20. This is just a general rule. Different programs will have different realities. Perennial D3 contenders vs programs on the rise or those with a new coach vs highly selective schools. There are lots of schools and coaches and they all have different realities, so there is no one size fits all here. Other than the fact that coaches do not want to ever hear from a parent. :)
Quote from: nescacfan94 on August 12, 2019, 10:16:52 AM
Finally, consider this.... 200-20-5. General rule of thumb for D3 recruiting. Coaches keep a list of 200 players, 20 they want (obviously ranked in some order), and they hope to get 5 from that list of 20. This is just a general rule. Different programs will have different realities. Perennial D3 contenders vs programs on the rise or those with a new coach vs highly selective schools. There are lots of schools and coaches and they all have different realities, so there is no one size fits all here. Other than the fact that coaches do not want to ever hear from a parent. :)
Huh, that's interesting. I would have thought the initial pool of players would be larger than 200, but what do I know.
My son is a rising junior, so college class of 2025. I can confidently say that there are basically no d3 commits at this age group.
I would think the better d3s would be on the later side, waiting for d1/borderline d1 players to figure out they preferred d3 to their d1 options.
The reality is that, at least among the more academically demanding liberal arts colleges, there is no such thing as a commitment from a D3 coach to a high school junior. The schools' admissions offices simply don't allow coaches to make that kind of early commitment on behalf of the school.
D3 coach I spoke with last week said he's just about done with the '20 kids and will start looking at '21 kids after the fall season.
Quote from: truenorth on August 13, 2019, 07:55:19 AM
The reality is that, at least among the more academically demanding liberal arts colleges, there is no such thing as a commitment from a D3 coach to a high school junior. The schools' admissions offices simply don't allow coaches to make that kind of early commitment on behalf of the school.
So you are technically right. The admissions office will not sign off on a rising high school senior until July 1st at the earliest. Some schools might need an extra week or two depending on the process at the particular school. But I know for a fact that high school juniors receive NESCAC offers many months before the July 1st deadline, and the coach will know based upon his/her experience and the grades/scores of the recruit whether that recruit will get 'sign off' from admissions once they walk the prospect info into Admissions on or after July 1st.
There's a big difference in admissions difficulty within the NESCAC. Trinity has a very different profile than Williams. Perhaps that's why some coaches can be more confident about admissions?
Quote from: Another Mom on August 13, 2019, 02:51:15 PM
There's a big difference in admissions difficulty within the NESCAC. Trinity has a very different profile than Williams. Perhaps that's why some coaches can be more confident about admissions?
Very true. But I think it is fair to say that the profiles remain roughly the same from year to year at a given school. That's where the confidence comes from. Doesn't matter if it is Williams or Trinity or Bowdoin or Conn College or ....
It sounds like there is a difference between being informally "offered a spot" (based on a high level of coach interest and a high level of likelihood that the player will get through admissions) versus being told, "yup, you're officially in, bring out the red carpet" before the July 1st deadline. It may be semantics, but they seem to be distinct.
I'm bumping this up, now that the season is over. Since my son is a junior recruiting activity has started to ramp up. My mantra is "Enjoy The Process"!
At this point, some schools are way ahead of others -- some just now turning to 2021s, others have been focused/courting them for months. I notice a correlation with strength of program. Highly ranked schools focused on the juniors earlier. My opinion is that's one reason these programs are more highly ranked, they are more likely to get stronger players this way.
Quote from: Another Mom on January 17, 2020, 08:08:42 AM
I'm bumping this up, now that the season is over. Since my son is a junior recruiting activity has started to ramp up. My mantra is "Enjoy The Process"!
So, how's it going?
Quote from: EB2319 on January 17, 2020, 10:19:53 AM
So, how's it going?
So far, so good, I believe. My son cast a wide net and so there are many coaches to juggle. It is a time consuming process!
Couple of things of note:
- as noted, there are official and unofficial visits. Official visits in DIII also include at least one meal voucher for student and sometimes family (each school may have its own limitations) and can be an overnight stay. I always get lost on this, but I think sometimes some of the travel expenses are covered ... but don't quote me on that. An unofficial visit basically is the prospective student is on site and can interact with the team, but the coaches and team can't pay for anything at all. It is all on the student and their family.
- "practices" while recruits are on campus, especially for any "official" visit. As noted, the coaches cannot participate and the practices cannot be formal too organized ("tryouts" in DIII are strictly forbidden and any changes to those rules have been shot down several times in recent NCAA Conventions where DIII institutions vote on these things). The liability kind of disappears when it is just students getting together to kick the ball around and such. And no recruit should feel pressure to participate either. A 'report' back to coach about the recruits is also a gray area. While certainly a coach and players may talk about recruits, I do not believe there can be any report about their skills and such as it can be misconstrued into a tryout.
This has come to a head in DIII mainly thanks to UW-Stevens Point men's basketball in recent years. They were found guilty of illegal practices AND illegal practices, with coaches involved, with at least 11 recruits. As a result, UWSP got rid of "official" visits for at least four years for the program plus a lot of other sanctions from the school and the NCAA (Division III decides it's own punishments to be clear).
One other note, no high school player will receive a commitment from a coach their junior year for the reasons already mentioned (admissions is a major role in DIII), but also because recruits can't even be talked to until January 1 of their junior year - though rereading the DIII Manual, that may have changed in the last year to the end of their sophomore year (the rules went through a rash of changes and I honestly lost track). So, juniors are players DIII coaches are just starting to learn about and talk to .. it is hard to make any commitments to them at that point. But as also pointed out, there are so many things that can derail any commitment, even one made by a student.
But a DIII commitment by a coach doesn't mean much anyway. In DI, that commitment comes with saying they have a slot on the team because the coaching staff has rationed out scholarship money of some kind. So that D1 is committing their resources, literally, to that student. In DIII, coaches don't have money to promise and they technically could take any student who walks on campus to play. Their commitment of whether they will play once any tryouts or cuts are made.
I hope that makes sense. The DIII experience is supposed to be less pressure across the board for all parties. It would be nice if DI would take some of DIII's rules and applied them (like no contact until junior year) as I think it would help students' lives in high school be less hectic and more enjoyable.
D3 coaches can be in touch with prospective players before their junior year. In fact I *thought* d3 had no restrictions (unlike D1 which can contact after June 15 after sophomore year). Several d3 coaches were in conversation with my son his sophomore year.
Quote from: Another Mom on January 17, 2020, 03:41:58 PM
D3 coaches can be in touch with prospective players before their junior year. In fact I *thought* d3 had no restrictions (unlike D1 which can contact after June 15 after sophomore year). Several d3 coaches were in conversation with my son his sophomore year.
It may be face-to-face or not allowed at all. I really need to check back into it. There are restrictions. It wasn't that long ago DIII couldn't talk to a student until they finished their junior year - not kidding.
I'll double-check, because like I said a lot has changed in the last few years. I do know their are restrictions ... here is the bylaws stright from the the DIII Manual:
Quote13.1 Contacts and Evaluations.
Recruiting contacts with a prospective student-athlete (or the prospective student-athlete's relatives or guardians) by institutional staff members and/or representatives of the institution's athletics interests are subject to the provisions set forth in this bylaw.
13.1.1 Contactable Prospective Student-Athletes.
13.1.1.1 High School Prospective Student-Athletes.
In-person, off-campus recruiting contacts shall not be made with a prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete's relatives or guardian(s) until the prospective student-athlete has completed his or her sophomore year in high school. U.S. service academy exceptions to this provision are set forth in Bylaw 13.15.1.
The trick being contact that isn't in person. That is the gray area I need to brush up on because it has become a gray area for me at least.
I checked with a coach - non-face-to-face conversations, recruiting can take place prior to their junior year. Just to clarify.
I am not a fan of that ... but that is a topic for another time.
UPDATE: I may have gotten ahead of myself. If a student calls a DIII coach/program, the coach can pick up the phone and chat. However, a coach cannot initiate a conversation with a student-athlete prior to their junior year. And that is June 15 following their sophomore year.
So, any convos prior to that point after their sophomore year, the coach cannot start. It has to be started by the student.
I'm not sure what convos your son had, but if a DIII coach or the staff is reaching out to your son prior to June 15 after his sophomore year even if it is by phone ... it is a violation. "It must be a sequence of student initiated conversations," according to one coach I've spoken with for clarification.
Disclaimer: I have no personal insight into the recruiting process or rules besides my ability to read the D-III Manual.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 17, 2020, 04:04:14 PMI checked with a coach - non-face-to-face conversations, recruiting can take place prior to their junior year. Just to clarify.
I am not a fan of that ... but that is a topic for another time.
UPDATE: I may have gotten ahead of myself. If a student calls a DIII coach/program, the coach can pick up the phone and chat. However, a coach cannot initiate a conversation with a student-athlete prior to their junior year. And that is June 15 following their sophomore year.
So, any convos prior to that point after their sophomore year, the coach cannot start. It has to be started by the student.
I'm not sure what convos your son had, but if a DIII coach or the staff is reaching out to your son prior to June 15 after his sophomore year even if it is by phone ... it is a violation. "It must be a sequence of student initiated conversations," according to one coach I've spoken with for clarification.
So where in the D-III Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-20-NCAA-Division-III-Manual.pdf) do these restrictions come from? The articles you quoted specifically mention "in-person, off-campus recruiting contact". It does not mention in-person on-campus contact or phone calls or electronic correspondence. It also does not mention a specific date, just "completion of sophomore year". Is there somewhere else in the Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-20-NCAA-Division-III-Manual.pdf) that the restrictions you are mentioning are covered? Are there official clarifications or interpretations provided outside the D-III Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-20-NCAA-Division-III-Manual.pdf)?
I'm not trying to be argumentative because as I said, I know very little about recruiting. I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying in light of what I read (and don't read) in the D-III Manual. For example, I wasn't finding any mention of who initiates contact in the Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-20-NCAA-Division-III-Manual.pdf), and that being the difference between whether it is permissible or not.
Here are some other articles in the Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-20-NCAA-Division-III-Manual.pdf) that are somewhat related.
Quote13.02.10 Telephone Calls. All electronically transmitted human voice exchange (including videoconfer-
encing and videophones) shall be considered telephone calls. All electronically transmitted correspondence (e.g.,
electronic mail, facsimiles, instant messaging, text messaging and social networking websites) shall not be consid-
ered telephone calls.
13.02.10.1 Timing of Telephone Calls. There are no restrictions on the timing of telephone calls to pro-
spective student-athletes. See Bylaw 13.1.3 for information on permissible callers.
13.02.11 Electronic Transmissions. Any electronically transmitted correspondence (e.g., electronic mail,
Instant Messenger, private communication through social media platforms, text messages or facsimiles) may be
sent to a prospective student-athlete (or his or her parents or legal guardians) provided the communication is
private between only the sender and recipient (e.g., no use of public chat rooms, message boards, public commu-
nication through social media platforms). An enrolled student-athlete may send private electronic correspondence
(e.g., electronic mail, Instant Messenger, private communication through social media platforms, text messages
or facsimiles) to a prospective student-athlete for recruitment purposes.
13.02.11.1 Timing of Electronic Transmissions. There are no restrictions on the timing for sending pri-
vate electronic correspondence (e.g., electronic mail, Instant Messenger, text messages or facsimiles) to prospec-
tive student-athletes.
Quote13.1.3 Telephone Calls to Prospective Student-Athletes. An institution may permit a student-ath-
lete, a staff member, or a representative of athletics interests to telephone a prospective student-athlete at the insti-
tution's expense at any time, provided the call is only for the purpose of recruitment and is with full knowledge of
the athletics department (see Bylaw 13.02.5.1).
Most were initiated by my son when he shared his tournament schedule. One coach called him in 9th grade but thought he was a junior, so it was an innocent mistake.
Here's my latest observation: some coaches/programs are super enthusiastic and some more guarded. Obviously sometimes that indicates a lower level of interest, but sometimes I think it just reflects that some programs are better at recruiting. If the coach says flattering things/is enthusiastic of course the player will feel more enthusiastic about the program! Would guess that means those coaches are more likely to get the recruits they want. I notice that the things needed to be a good recruiting program are thought and effort, something any coach can do.
It's the more highly ranked programs that are doing this, which is counterintuitive, those are the programs that could be more picky, I would think.
I should offer to consult with coaches when this is all over (kidding! -- sort of:-) )
I am not sure if this should be its own thread but I am curious whether coaches are cancelling recruiting travel due to the Coronavirus. My DS's team is scheduled to be at the Las Vegas Showcase this weekend and the organizers are claiming no coaches - and very few teams - have pulled out. We will likely stay home regardless but I'd like to get information from a source other than the tournament director. D3 coaches listed as attending on the website include Amherst, Connecticut College, Case Western, CMU, Colby, Colorado College, Kenyon, Middlebury and on and on. Any honest insights appreciated.
https://playersshowcase.com/
Tournament cancelled. Most organized soccer events in the country have been suspended. DA Academy and USYS Conference events suspended for at least a month.
The NCAA has also banned all in person recruiting.
I wonder if this current situation means coaches will have to make decisions with less information (ie no spring showcases or ID camps).
Quote from: Another Mom on March 14, 2020, 09:13:53 AM
The NCAA has also banned all in person recruiting.
I wonder if this current situation means coaches will have to make decisions with less information (ie no spring showcases or ID camps).
DI has canceled all in-person recruiting. I do not believe DIII has made a decision on that. There was tweet earlier today from DIII's VP about the fact that many national media (*cough* ESPN *cough*) were taking DI decisions as if they were NCAA-wide, which is inaccurate.
Tweet: https://twitter.com/ddutcher2000/status/1238871357875724295
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 14, 2020, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on March 14, 2020, 09:13:53 AM
The NCAA has also banned all in person recruiting.
I wonder if this current situation means coaches will have to make decisions with less information (ie no spring showcases or ID camps).
DI has canceled all in-person recruiting. I do not believe DIII has made a decision on that. There was tweet earlier today from DIII's VP about the fact that many national media (*cough* ESPN *cough*) were taking DI decisions as if they were NCAA-wide, which is inaccurate.
Tweet: https://twitter.com/ddutcher2000/status/1238871357875724295
Whether DIII follows suit or not may-be a moot point as most club and high schools have halted most activities. I guess this will open the door to some inventive in-person recruiting tactics by the schools that are able to keep working.
Quote from: Vasoccer757 on March 16, 2020, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 14, 2020, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on March 14, 2020, 09:13:53 AM
The NCAA has also banned all in person recruiting.
I wonder if this current situation means coaches will have to make decisions with less information (ie no spring showcases or ID camps).
DI has canceled all in-person recruiting. I do not believe DIII has made a decision on that. There was tweet earlier today from DIII's VP about the fact that many national media (*cough* ESPN *cough*) were taking DI decisions as if they were NCAA-wide, which is inaccurate.
Tweet: https://twitter.com/ddutcher2000/status/1238871357875724295
Whether DIII follows suit or not may-be a moot point as most club and high schools have halted most activities. I guess this will open the door to some inventive in-person recruiting tactics by the schools that are able to keep working.
DIII has never had a recruiting calendar based primarily on the fact that there are so many part-time coaches (especially assistants) or those who have other responsibilities within the department or outside the job altogether. Thus, a calendar would be a real challenge.
I believe this decision revolved around much of the same. If schools individually (or conferences) want to shut this stuff down, that is on them for sure ... with the understanding how it could impact them in the future. Granted, many things may be shutdown as you mentioned ... but I believe this decision sticks with the DIII thinking that schools and conferences can make their own decisions on stuff like this.
If there are no summer ID Clinics or other events, as may be the case, what do you think will happen with the rising seniors (class of 2021)? I'm guessing that coaches will have to make decisions using the information they already have. Thoughts?
I've seen a bunch of individual ID camps scheduled in the fall, and the winter. So while those are likely after your applications are due, my guess is coaches will use those to offer spots.
That would mean the model of going ED in exchange for coach's support wouldn't be used. I agree that this may happen, but my son is very far down the recruiting path with 3 NESCACs, i know those schools don't really need more info or more looks at my son. Where it might hurt him is that he's gotten som initial interest from some d1 schools. Those schools do not have enough info on him and i don't think recruiting will go anywhere with them unless they can see him play.
Another Mom......there is on the Nescac.com website a announcement/restrictions on coaches recruiting during this "crisis period.
Yes, in person recruiting forbidden. I think most know that. If the in person recruiting is forbidden through the summer is what I was considering.
Quote from: Another Mom on March 20, 2020, 07:29:50 AM
If there are no summer ID Clinics or other events, as may be the case, what do you think will happen with the rising seniors (class of 2021)? I'm guessing that coaches will have to make decisions using the information they already have. Thoughts?
Yes or in the cases of MANY schools, early decision candidates will be the biggest part of the incoming classes.
Posting just to say that my son's recruiting journey has finished, as he committed to a great school a couple of weeks ago. He and I have learned so much along the way, I would be happy to share what I know. So any other parents out there feel free to PM me or post on the board so others can learn too.
Congratulations to your son and you! Here's wishing you both a great experience in the years ahead (after what promises to be an "unusual" year for most college students and their parents).
Thank you! Fingers crossed that by the fall of 2021 there's a season, right?
I'm noticing that most of the NESCAC, UAA, and ODAC colleges are choosing to stay "test-optional" for 2024's. Having a 2024, we've been on quite a few college tours, and admission officers are stressing that students "may" submit test scores; however, students will not be penalized if they choose not to submit scores.
The big question is- does this apply to athletic recruits? Are coaches at NESCAC schools still asking for test scores?
I think it's safe to say that a student-athlete who wants to apply to a top academic D3 school knows what it takes to get into one of these schools. However, it would be a huge relief if he could scratch test prep off his list and continue focusing on his soccer, academics, and other application pieces.
Any wisdom or experience would be appreciated!
The best thing to do is to ask coaches. Your son should be in correspondence with a bunch of coaches if he is a junior. They will always be your best source because only they know for sure.
My son was a '21 and went through recruiting in 2020, when schools were test optional. He happened to have taken the SAT after sophomore year. He didn't get a great score (for selective schools) but was planning to retest when covid shut things down. Every single coach wanted the score, and it was submitted for all his prereads. He passed the prereads. However, when he applied ED he did not submit the score. Even though the Admissions Office had already seen it for the preread.
In our son's experience, every coach asked for test scores also. There isn't really any downside to taking the standardized tests and it keeps all your options open. Bear in mind you have to win over the coach before you win over the admissions office. A strong or average test score can make it more likely the coach sends a player's file for pre-read. Coaches know what schools are looking for and can give you feedback even before the admission pre-read.
The entire college application process is subject to a lot of silly games relating to rankings, and you see some of that here. We know several athletes at top academic schools who tested well by normal standards but below the average for the school they applied to. After their pre-reads, they were directed not to submit their tests scores as part of their ED application. Presumably this is because it would lower the school average, but it also could be because schools like to report a higher percentage of students admitted w/o test scores .
It's probably a little off topic, but I wasn't sure it merited its own subject, but on The Athletic I was just reading an analysis on how TCU made the CFP final and could see some threads of interest to our universe. TCU relative to the Michigan team it defeated, was "ranked" a fair way lower, but what it has done, was bring in.a large number of transfers, ostensibly to fill gaps. So, a little different to straight HS recruiting as these players have more of a visible college record and of course film and stats can be devoured to extreme levels to facilitate decisions. I guess, but don't know, that the team's success this year may assist in recruiting, others will have better ideas on TCU as a destination.
It got me thinking about D3 soccer and how it's quite a different landscape where as has been identified, a potential recruit's academic performance is almost more important than their actual playing given the hoops a coach has to jump through to bring someone in. I know D1 soccer teams are already well down the transfer path, but am curious as to how that gets balanced out by freshmen recruiting, it feels pretty tricky to me. I know there will be instances of D3 teams having larger freshmen classes as part of a rebuild, but the nature of the division makes me think that whilst there will be targeted transfers, I can't imagine more wholesale ones like TCU has done.