Suggest that we start a new thread for the tournament.
It feels good to be back ;D
Alright who's the got hardest bracket? I think it's the Amherst-Messiah Oneonta
What are the toughest pods for rounds 1 & 2?
I would say (potentially) Messiah vs Oneonta in round 2 has to be at or near the top of any list. (If I'm not being objective, I'm sure I'll hear about it. ;D)
CNU-Roanoke (2nd round) is probably next.
OWU-Chicago (2nd round) has to be mentioned. Ditto Conn-Hopkins (2nd round). Ithac-Amherst (2nd round) perhaps next. I don't put PSU/Behrend-Kenyon in nearly the same category: not convinced that PSU is as good as their ranking.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 11, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
Alright who's the got hardest bracket? I think it's the Amherst-Messiah Oneonta
Agreed--see my post above.
Sweet 16:
Amherst
Rowan
RPI
Messiah
JCU
CMS
F&M
Rochester
JHU
CNU
Tufts
W&L
Chicago
Luther
Calvin
North Park
Elite 8
Amherst
Messiah
JCU
F&M
CNU
Tufts
Chicago
North Park
Final 4
Amherst
JCU
Tufts
North Park
Championship
Amherst
Tufts
Tufts wins
JHU/Conn College/Catholic is no picnic
Hopkins got rewarded in the first round, but CC and Catholic are both good squads. I've watched some Catholic games this year and they are very good going forward as a unit. Getting to host doesn't hurt, either, as they are VERY strong there. That said, this the best COLLECTIVE approach I've seen from Hop in a long long time. The fact that they are mixing up their style of play when necessary is a HUGE change to the good.
But I agree Messiah probably has the toughest first weekend.
Quote from: Falconer on November 11, 2019, 03:03:49 PMOWU-Chicago (2nd round) has to be mentioned.
It's not a foregone conclusion that that game will even take place. Hope is no gimme, especially at home. I watched the Dutch's scoreless draw with Calvin in the MIAA tourney title game two days ago (played at Calvin, BTW), in which the Knights took the MIAA autobid via PKs, and Hope acquitted itself very well in that contest.
The Bishops are the legit favorite. Nevertheless, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it's Hope that advances to play the Maroons, not Ohio Wesleyan.
Quote from: Falconer on November 11, 2019, 03:03:49 PM
What are the toughest pods for rounds 1 & 2?
I would say (potentially) Messiah vs Oneonta in round 2 has to be at or near the top of any list. (If I'm not being objective, I'm sure I'll hear about it. ;D)
CNU-Roanoke (2nd round) is probably next.
OWU-Chicago (2nd round) has to be mentioned. Ditto Conn-Hopkins (2nd round). Ithac-Amherst (2nd round) perhaps next. I don't put PSU/Behrend-Kenyon in nearly the same category: not convinced that PSU is as good as their ranking.
You're comparing 2nd round possible match-ups with Kenyon's 1st round match. Ps-B is no joke....only one of two teams with a better W/L record than Kenyon and may be this year's version of St. Joe's. And how did you miss a possible Kenyon-ROCHESTER 2nd round tilt?
I'll have to look again but I think JCU has a fabulous draw to the Elite 8 and no doubt would be hosting if they get through the weekend which is an advantage playing on that Don Shula turf.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2019, 03:46:41 PM
Hope is no gimme, especially at home. I watched the Dutch's scoreless draw with Calvin in the MIAA tourney title game two days ago (played at Calvin, BTW), in which the Knights took the MIAA autobid via PKs, and Hope acquitted itself very well in that contest.
If I recall correctly, there was some debate when Brandt took the Hope job as to how long before he returned the program to relevancy. Some said 5 years. Well, it's been 2. I fully expect in another 2-3 years when the team is filled with his recruits, they'll be even stronger.
Year W-L-T MIAA Coach
2019 14-5-1 2nd (6-1-0) Dave Brandt
2018 14-3-1 4th (4-2-1) Dave Brandt
2017 7-10-2 4th (6-6-2) Steven Smith
2016 6-12-1 6th (4-9-1) Steven Smith
2015 9-10-1 4th (6-7-1) Steven Smith
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2019, 03:46:41 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 11, 2019, 03:03:49 PMOWU-Chicago (2nd round) has to be mentioned.
It's not a foregone conclusion that that game will even take place. Hope is no gimme, especially at home. I watched the Dutch's scoreless draw with Calvin in the MIAA tourney title game two days ago (played at Calvin, BTW), in which the Knights took the MIAA autobid via PKs, and Hope acquitted itself very well in that contest.
The Bishops are the legit favorite. Nevertheless, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it's Hope that advances to play the Maroons, not Ohio Wesleyan.
Agreed - caught parts of their OT game versus UC. OWU's starting keeper has missed several games with a concussion (left midway through the first Wabash game). The reserve keeper did not have a good game versus Kenyon Saturday - twice he left the 6, twice Kenyon scored tough angle goals - not sure he had to do anything except stay home. But even with the 2-1 loss to Kenyon, that's only 10 goals conceded this year by OWU.
The Amherst bracket is loaded but not so much for Amherst....pretty open to Sweet 16 and then a potential Sweet 16 game against Rowan or MW...a good Sweet 16 challenge but not overwhelming especially at Amherst. The bottom with RPI, MIdd, Messiah and Oneonta is stacked.
Prediction: RPI vs Midd.....0-0-0-0 2OT....Midd advances on PKs 14-13 or 1-0.
Hopkins has a good draw as long as they aren't thwarted by one of the best GKs in the country with Conn....but Conn has to win away at Catholic.
Tufts also has a great draw, with an easy road to the Sweet 16 and nothing really tough until a potential Elite 8 clash with Hopkins (if Hopkins is still around).
Calvin has a good draw imo and could be looking at yet another match with Chicago.
Round of 32: Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Oneonta, JCU, Centre, CMS, UT-Dallas, F&M, Montclair, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Conn., CNU, Roanoke, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Oglethorpe, Chicago, Hope, Luther, Central, Calvin, St. Norbert, NPU, Colorado College
Sweet 16: Amherst, Mary Washington, Middlebury, Messiah, John Carroll, UT-Dallas, F&M, Kenyon, Hopkins, CNU, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Central, Calvin, NPU
Elite 8: Amherst, Messiah, John Carroll, Kenyon, Hopkins, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
Final 4: Amherst, Kenyon, Tufts, Chicago
Championship: Amherst 1-0 Tufts
Notes:
- As I said last year very much shooting from the hip (and, to the Tufts faithful, I would not be completely surprised to see the same Final matchup with the scoreline reversed). Tufts has not lost a Final 4 game (ever!) and a final between the two would be uncharted territory.
- Both of the NESCAC's top two will, in all likelihood, be hosting to the Final 4 — a contrast to when all the NESCACs have been in the same quartile of the bracket.
- I feel like this Amherst team is a lot like their 2015 team — including losing the NESCAC quarters at home. Tufts was deserved NESCAC winners and held the No. 1 spot for quite a while, but I do feel Amherst just has a bit more this year; last year, it was the reverse, as both the regular season and Sweet 16 games showed. They seem more ruthless, and I think much like 2015 their loss perhaps came at the right time.
- I've been impressed with Babson this year, and think they might have gotten a Pool C anyway, but do not think they overcome Oneonta. Then again, didn't see them beating Tufts, either.
- Middlebury isn't fun to watch IMHO but defense counts at this point in the year and they have a solid rearguard.
- Chicago: Five ties is a lot, and it took a while for the Maroons to get going, but going 7-0 in the UAA is no mean feat. I think they have usurped Calvin as the team to beat in that quartile (a reverse of when I said earlier in the year I'd be impressed if Chicago avoided a loss to Calvin). They were hard done by in 2017 in that year's semifinal, but got blown out of the water last year. Will this year be the year they win a semi? Tough to see them getting by Tufts.
The chairperson for the South Atlantic should get a raise....7 out of 8 ranked teams in.
And how in the world did Oneonta at 17-2 and 4-1 RvR and very similar SoS not get above Ithaca?
Texas Lutheran knocked out Trinity in the conference tourney but got a bid for the Tigers anyway by getting ranked and adding two wins and a loss to the Trinity RvR.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 11, 2019, 04:24:22 PM
Round of 32: Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Oneonta, JCU, Centre, CMS, UT-Dallas, F&M, Montclair, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Conn., CNU, Roanoke, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Oglethorpe, Chicago, Hope, Luther, Central, Calvin, St. Norbert, NPU, Colorado College
Sweet 16: Amherst, Mary Washington, Middlebury, Messiah, John Carroll, UT-Dallas, F&M, Kenyon, Hopkins, CNU, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Central, Calvin, NPU
Elite 8: Amherst, Messiah, John Carroll, Kenyon, Hopkins, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
Final 4: Amherst, Kenyon, Tufts, Chicago
Championship: Amherst 1-0 Tufts
Notes:
- As I said last year very much shooting from the hip (and, to the Tufts faithful, I would not be completely surprised to see the same Final matchup with the scoreline reversed). Tufts has not lost a Final 4 game (ever!) and a final between the two would be uncharted territory.
- Both of the NESCAC's top two will, in all likelihood, be hosting to the Final 4 — a contrast to when all the NESCACs have been in the same quartile of the bracket.
- I feel like this Amherst team is a lot like their 2015 team — including losing the NESCAC quarters at home. Tufts was deserved NESCAC winners and held the No. 1 spot for quite a while, but I do feel Amherst just has a bit more this year; last year, it was the reverse, as both the regular season and Sweet 16 games showed. They seem more ruthless, and I think much like 2015 their loss perhaps came at the right time.
- I've been impressed with Babson this year, and think they might have gotten a Pool C anyway, but do not think they overcome Oneonta. Then again, didn't see them beating Tufts, either.
- Middlebury isn't fun to watch IMHO but defense counts at this point in the year and they have a solid rearguard.
- Chicago: Five ties is a lot, and it took a while for the Maroons to get going, but going 7-0 in the UAA is no mean feat. I think they have usurped Calvin as the team to beat in that quartile (a reverse of when I said earlier in the year I'd be impressed if Chicago avoided a loss to Calvin). They were hard done by in 2017 in that year's semifinal, but got blown out of the water last year. Will this year be the year they win a semi? Tough to see them getting by Tufts.
Are we sure Tufts would host in a Sectional pod that included Hopkins? I would think Hopkins is ranked higher than Tufts, but maybe that changed in the past week? Anyone have any insight on this?
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 11, 2019, 06:16:49 PM
Are we sure Tufts would host in a Sectional pod that included Hopkins? I would think Hopkins is ranked higher than Tufts, but maybe that changed in the past week? Anyone have any insight on this?
It's close, for sure — JHU might actually have the edge in terms of proximity to South Atlantic participants — I just have the feeling that Tufts' last week of results may be decisive (save for the Blue Jays' superior winning pct., and acknowledging their Centennial Conference triumph). Maybe that's my New England bias. FWIW, D3soccer.com has Tufts ranked one spot higher, although that's not an indicator or selection criteria for hosting.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 11, 2019, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 11, 2019, 06:16:49 PM
Are we sure Tufts would host in a Sectional pod that included Hopkins? I would think Hopkins is ranked higher than Tufts, but maybe that changed in the past week? Anyone have any insight on this?
It's close, for sure — JHU might actually have the edge in terms of proximity to South Atlantic participants — I just have the feeling that Tufts' last week of results may be decisive (save for the Blue Jays' superior winning pct., and acknowledging their Centennial Conference triumph). Maybe that's my New England bias. FWIW, D3soccer.com has Tufts ranked one spot higher, although that's not an indicator or selection criteria for hosting.
Correct! While highly accurate ;D, our rankings don't have any impact on the NCAA committee and their decisions.
I have gotten some insight into some of the surprising selections for pod hosts.
As has been mentioned/explained by others, the reason Amherst, Messiah, Chicago and Johns Hopkins are not hosting the pods in which they are the top seed is because their women's teams are also the top seed in their pods, and following the alternating hosting priority schedule, the women have hosting priority. No big news there.
In past years, as long as geography didn't point the committee in a different direction, the second seed in the pod would typically be chosen to host in these situations. This brought on consistent feedback that when the top two seeds advanced to the second round as expected, it was unfair that the top seed that had earned the right to host, not only didn't get to host, but now had to play at the home of a potentially very strong second round opponent. In other words, the strongest challenger to the top seed advancing to the Sweet 16 was being given the advantage it hadn't earned to use against the team that actually deserved it.
In response to this feedback, the committee this year selected the third seeds in these pod to host, thus making the likely second round match a neutral game. That doesn't completely make up for the lost hosting advantage, but at least it doesn't hand that advantage to their more likely second round opponent. This is why Keene State, Oneonta State, Hope and Catholic are hosting pods.
My initial thoughts/observations are as follows:
• In general and on first thought, this seems like a sensible thing to do. It's nice to try not to penalize a team just because their women's team is also extremely good.
• The strongest challenger in a pod may not actually be who the NCAA's selection criteria says it is. The third seed by their criteria might actual be the top seeds' biggest threat, so this approach might now always be the better for the top seed. For example, opinion may vary on whether third seed Oneonta State or second seed Babson is the better team and the team with the better chance to stop Messiah from advancing.
• In strong pods with three relatively strong teams, this doesn't make much or any difference for the top seed. However, it now unfairly helps the third seed have a better chance against the second seed in round one. Since this is about fairness, is it fair that Ohio Wesleyan has to play at host Hope to open the tournament? Is it fair that Catholic's chances of advancing got such an unearned/undeserved boost?
On closer look, the Chicago/Dominican/OWU/Hope foursome is intriguing. Chicago and Hope played at Hope earlier this season, with Chicago squeaking by 3-2, and OWU also has a good history at the gorgeous Hope soccer complex.
And of course OWU-Hope pits two D3 coaching legends facing off, Jay Martin and Dave Brandt. The winner of OWU-Hope will feel confident assuming Chicago is there.
MAF NCAA Picks
Round 32
Amherst
Keene
Mary Wash
Rowan
RPI
Midd
Messiah
Oneonta
JC
KZoo
Claremont
Trinity
F&M
Hobart
Behrend
UR
JHU
Conn
CNU
Swat
Tufts
WPI
W&L
Oglethorpe
Chicago
OWU
Luther
Central
Calvin
ONU
NP
GA
Sweet 16
Amherst
Rowan
Midd
Oneonta
Kzoo
Trinity
F&M
UR
JHU
CNU
Tufts
W&L
OWU
Luther
Calvin
GA
Elite 8
Amherst
Oneonta
Trinity
F&M
JHU
W&L
Luther
Calvin
Final 4
Amherst
F&M
W&L
Calvin
Final
Amherst
Calvin
Champion
Calvin (2-1)
Shooter's Tourney Picks
Round of 32
Amherst
Ithaca
Keystone
Rowan
RPI
JWU
Messiah
Babson
JC
Centre
Tx Luthern
Trinity
PSU Harrisburg
Montclair
Kenyon
UR
JHU
Catholic
CNU
Roanoke
Tufts
Nazareth
Wash Lee
Gettysburg
Chicago
Hope
Luther
UW-Superior
Calvin
ONU
North Park
Gustavus
Sweet 16
Amherst
Rowan
RPI
Messiah
Centre
Trinity
Montclair
Kenyon
JHU
CNU
Tufts
Gettysburg
Chicago
Luther
ONU
North Park
Elite 8
Amherst
Messiah
Centre
Kenyon
JHU
Tufts
Chicago
North Park
Final 4
Amherst
Kenyon
Tufts
Chicago
Final
Kenyon
Tufts
Champ
Tufts 3-1
Tried my hand at some Bracket Analysis using Massey. Some great potential matchups to look forward to along the way to Greensboro. Enjoy:
Best Teams Left Out:
26. Covenant
27. Williams
32. Eastern Conn
36. St. Thomas (MN)
37. St. Mary's (MD)
Top 5 In:
1. Hopkins
2. Tufts
3. Amherst
4. F&M
5. Calvin
Bottom 5 In:
344. John Jay
303. SUNY Maritime
275. W&J
255. Thomas (ME)
218. Principia
Best Quality First Round Matchups:
11. Catholic v. 12. Conn
8. W&L v. 22. NC Wesleyan
5. Calvin v. 64. UW Whitewater
Worst Quality First Round Matchups:
69. Texas Dallas v. 100. Trinity (TX)
71. Ithaca v. 83. Keene St
25. Luther v. 218 Principia
Sectional Rankings (Assuming highest rated teams advance):
Best - 1. Hopkins v. 9. CNU and 2. Tufts v. 8. W&L
3. Amherst v. 6. Mary Wash and 17. Middlebury v. 10. Messiah
7. Chicago v. 25. Luther and 5. Calvin v. 16. North Park
Worst - 15. JCU v. 30. CMS and 4. F&M v. 14. Kenyon
Path to Title for Top Seeds in each Quadrant (Assuming highest rated teams advance):
Easiest - Amherst - 255. Thomas (ME) 71. Ithaca 6. Mary Wash 10. Messiah 4. F&M 1. Hopkins
F&M - 202. PSU-H 18. Montclair 14. Kenyoon 15. JCU 3. Amherst 1. Hopkins
Calvin - 64. UW Whitewater 50. St Norbert 16. North Park 7. Chicago 1. Hopkins 3. Amherst
Hardest - Hopkins - 344. John Jay 11. Catholic 9. CNU 2. Tufts 5. Calvin 3. Amherst
YB's Potential Game(s) to Watch (And hope will happen) Each Round:
1st: 11. Catholic v. 12. Conn
2nd: 10. Messiah v. 13. Oneonta
Sweet 16: 3. Amherst v. 6. Mary Wash and 5. Calvin v. 16. North Park
Elite 8: 1. Hopkins v. 2. Tufts and 5. Calvin v. 7. Chicago and 3. Amherst v. 10. Messiah (ALL SOO GOOD)
Final 4: Take your pick
Championship: NESCAC (3. Amherst v. 2. Tufts) or Centennial (1. Hopkins v. 4. F&M)
Best of luck to all teams involved. Should be a fun couple of weeks!
Do any of the UAA teams play on grass? I know Chicago has one but is that their usual field or do they play most UAA tilts on turf? Emory? Seems like I've watched Emory play at home and never have been sure what the surface is. I know Brandeis, UR, CMU, Wash U, CWRU and I thin kNYU are all turf.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2019, 03:31:11 PM
Do any of the UAA teams play on grass? I know Chicago has one but is that their usual field or do they play most UAA tilts on turf? Emory? Seems like I've watched Emory play at home and never have been sure what the surface is. I know Brandeis, UR, CMU, Wash U, CWRU and I thin kNYU are all turf.
Emory's field is grass. Never seen it in person, but doesn't look in the best of shape most times I see it on web casts.
They are the only one whose primary surface is grass; Chicago has one but I believe plays most games on turf (the only games I can recall seeing on the grass field was the 2014 regular season game vs. Brandeis and the 2016 Sweet 16 game vs. Redlands...there have been more, no doubt, but those are the only two I've seen).
A little off topic, but what is the best, most unlikely based on location grass field in D3? My gut vote is SLU....remarkable pitch given the location, and the crew there must spend hours and hours most of the year keeping the field looking that good.
Every Chicago men's soccer game I've ever seen has been played on the turf surface at Stagg Field.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2019, 03:50:56 PM
A little off topic, but what is the best, most unlikely based on location grass field in D3? My gut vote is SLU....remarkable pitch given the location, and the crew there must spend hours and hours most of the year keeping the field looking that good.
Not sure but I die a little inside whenever a school replaces a natural field with artificial turf. I realize it's a ton more work but a properly kept natural field will always be superior
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2019, 03:50:56 PM
A little off topic, but what is the best, most unlikely based on location grass field in D3? My gut vote is SLU....remarkable pitch given the location, and the crew there must spend hours and hours most of the year keeping the field looking that good.
Not sure but I die a little inside whenever a school replaces a natural field with artificial turf. I realize it's a ton more work but a properly kept natural field will always be superior
This is how i felt when the first Nescac went to turf in 2007. Middlebury started the trend and I hoping the final schools do not give up its grass
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2019, 03:50:56 PM
A little off topic, but what is the best, most unlikely based on location grass field in D3? My gut vote is SLU....remarkable pitch given the location, and the crew there must spend hours and hours most of the year keeping the field looking that good.
Not sure but I die a little inside whenever a school replaces a natural field with artificial turf. I realize it's a ton more work but a properly kept natural field will always be superior
Agreed.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2019, 03:50:56 PM
A little off topic, but what is the best, most unlikely based on location grass field in D3? My gut vote is SLU....remarkable pitch given the location, and the crew there must spend hours and hours most of the year keeping the field looking that good.
Not sure but I die a little inside whenever a school replaces a natural field with artificial turf. I realize it's a ton more work but a properly kept natural field will always be superior
An awful lot of schools don't have the luxury of using a grass field. Not only does it take more money and manpower to maintain (and, yeah, I know that turf costs big money to install, but you can fundraise for a new playing surface better than you can fundraise for a grounds crew), but a very large percentage of D3 schools play multiple sports on the same surface, with football and lacrosse being the two most common crossovers with soccer. Grass simply isn't going to hold up to all that wear and tear. And in places where the weather gets rough, a grass field can be compromised pretty easily, especially after the first frost and the first snowfall. Plus, a well-installed, relatively new Field Turf surface will have advantages in drainage and grip over grass.
In my conference, the CCIW, there's only one school left that plays on grass, Illinois Wesleyan. And IWU's soccer pitch is
terrible. I call it "the cow pasture". It's a sprained ankle waiting to happen -- and yet it's in better shape than the grass fields formerly used by the two most recent holdouts who finally gave up and moved soccer to their Field Turf football fields, Millikin and Elmhurst. Their old grass fields were absolute nightmares.
Evansville 67 #1 Kentucky 64......SUNY Maritime, you got this!
Congrats to Mary Washington for highest SoS in the field (.636), followed by Chicago, Middlebury, Gettysburg and Hopkins.
For the most part I agree. See my rankings here (https://discnerd.wordpress.com/2019/11/12/d3-mens-soccer-tournament-analysis/).
The post has everyone's probability based on my model of advancing to each round up to the championship given the probabilities of their opponents making it to play them.
Most likely Final Four is:
| Franklin and Marshall |
| Mary Washington |
| Chicago |
| Johns Hopkins |
Mary Washington is the favorite to win the Championship, if only because Hopkins has the worst Quadrant.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 12, 2019, 02:43:40 PM
Tried my hand at some Bracket Analysis using Massey. Some great potential matchups to look forward to along the way to Greensboro. Enjoy:
...
And a nice assist on bulletin board material from the Tufts dude (and fellow Tar Heel) for little ol' middle-of-nowhere Kenyon. Not sure what I appreciate more...the prediction of a 1st round loss (join the crowd) or the suggestion that if the Lords miraculously made the Final Four they would be a heavy underdog in the semis and I presume also the final.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2019, 10:06:28 AM
And a nice assist on bulletin board material from the Tufts dude (and fellow Tar Heel) for little ol' middle-of-nowhere Kenyon. Not sure what I appreciate more...the prediction of a 1st round loss (join the crowd) or the suggestion that if the Lords miraculously made the Final Four they would be a heavy underdog in the semis and I presume also the final.
I enjoyed watching Kenyon play this year, love their style of play and attacking 'dangerousness'. Youth/inexperience will be their biggest hurdle in this tournament, but if they can pull it together anything is possible.
Weather is looking dicey in Newport News for Saturday. Windy, rain and in the 40s. No thanks.
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 12:40:48 PM
Weather is looking dicey in Newport News for Saturday. Windy, rain and in the 40s. No thanks.
I live in Chicago. Windy, rain, and in the 40s sounds like heaven right about now. :D
Re: Zinn's Contender (NCAA Preview Edition) -
Great column as usual. I love the idea of weighting the overall power rankings with the difficulty of the bracket each team faces. Such is the reality of the tournament, and it's refreshing to see a tough draw being taken into account. Here's how I would rank the teams in terms of likeliness to win it all:
1. Tufts - There would have been anarchy if Mr. Zinner had put the Jumbos at #1 (although I have not doubt he thinks they are the favorite), so he had to go out of the box with JCU. I, on the other hand, have no such allegiances, and no better than to bet against Tufts in November and December. This team is a postseason juggernaut with an XI that will beat you down on Saturdays, and a bench that will contribute in a meaningful way on Sundays. First two rounds should pose no obstacle. I think W&L is overrated and won't be too tough for Tufts. It doesn't really get tough for them until the Elite 8, but at that point, everybody left will be solid. A possible Elite 8 game against Hopkins would be the game of the tournament, and perhaps the best quality of D3 soccer that money could buy (with all due respect to Messiah and Calvin). For my money, I'd say Tufts is the favorite.
2. Calvin - Admittedly, I know very little about Calvin, other then that they seem to be in the Final Four every year, and that they smashed F&M 4-1 in the Elite 8 back in 2016. I'd be shocked if they didn't make the second weekend, where games against North Park and Chicago would loom large. Home field for that weekend might be enough to send them through to Greensboro, at which point, they'd have to show that this is the year for a breakthrough. A Final 4 showdown against Tufts or Hopkins would be a great watch.
3. Messiah - Let's remember that this team hasn't lost in 18 games. The healthy version of this team is undefeated on the year, and no matter how shallow you think their talent is this year, they're still deeper than your team. On a Saturday, a good team might be able to beat Messiah, but on a Sunday, they're depth will win out. Fortunately, their toughest potential matchups (Oneonta, Amherst) would come on the second day of the weekend. Only the fact that they will have to beat Amherst on Amherst's field keeps them from the top 2.
4. Amherst - Home sweet home will give them a sizable advantage in the first two rounds. There's no questioning their talent and success throughout this season; however, a one-dimensional attack is easier to stop then a well-balanced one (I mentioned this in a previous SOTD). Look no further than last year's Messiah squad for a team reliant on a super striker to deliver the goods that went out earlier than they would have wanted in the tournament.
5. Hopkins - The relative newcomer to the top bunch of teams, I have been impressed with this team's success in big games all season long. While they're probably the most likely top seed to not make it out of the first weekend, if they can maintain focus and continue to show up for the big games, they'll be tough to beat. Home field advantage for the sectional could be enough to flip the script on Tufts and exorcise those 2017 demons. Don't count out an all-Centennial championship, but from a neutral perspective, I would rather see them against Messiah with the trophy on the line.
6. John Carroll - The Rust Belt Quadrant is clearly the weakest. As the favorite to get out of there, they could have an easy route to the Elite 8.
7. Christopher Newport - Haven't heard much about this team, but they keep getting results. If Hopkins slips, they have a pretty easy path to the Elite 8.
8. F&M
9. Chicago
10. Kenyon
Bracket Buster(s) - Roanoke and North Park (you're welcome Mr. Sager)
P.S. Swarthmore at #10 in Mr. Zinner's rankings is hilarious. If I had a house I would bet it against them getting out of the first weekend, and maybe even the first game. If you lose by 4 to a team that didn't even make the tournament, you don't deserve to be considered a contender.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 01:18:11 PM
Re: Zinn's Contender (NCAA Preview Edition) -
Great column as usual. I love the idea of weighting the overall power rankings with the difficulty of the bracket each team faces. Such is the reality of the tournament, and it's refreshing to see a tough draw being taken into account. Here's how I would rank the teams in terms of likeliness to win it all:
1. Tufts - There would have been anarchy if Mr. Zinner had put the Jumbos at #1 (although I have not doubt he thinks they are the favorite), so he had to go out of the box with JCU. I, on the other hand, have no such allegiances, and no better than to bet against Tufts in November and December. This team is a postseason juggernaut with an XI that will beat you down on Saturdays, and a bench that will contribute in a meaningful way on Sundays. First two rounds should pose no obstacle. I think W&L is overrated and won't be too tough for Tufts. It doesn't really get tough for them until the Elite 8, but at that point, everybody left will be solid. A possible Elite 8 game against Hopkins would be the game of the tournament, and perhaps the best quality of D3 soccer that money could buy (with all due respect to Messiah and Calvin). For my money, I'd say Tufts is the favorite.
2. Calvin - Admittedly, I know very little about Calvin, other then that they seem to be in the Final Four every year, and that they smashed F&M 4-1 in the Elite 8 back in 2016. I'd be shocked if they didn't make the second weekend, where games against North Park and Chicago would loom large. Home field for that weekend might be enough to send them through to Greensboro, at which point, they'd have to show that this is the year for a breakthrough. A Final 4 showdown against Tufts or Hopkins would be a great watch.
3. Messiah - Let's remember that this team hasn't lost in 18 games. The healthy version of this team is undefeated on the year, and no matter how shallow you think their talent is this year, they're still deeper than your team. On a Saturday, a good team might be able to beat Messiah, but on a Sunday, they're depth will win out. Fortunately, their toughest potential matchups (Oneonta, Amherst) would come on the second day of the weekend. Only the fact that they will have to beat Amherst on Amherst's field keeps them from the top 2.
4. Amherst - Home sweet home will give them a sizable advantage in the first two rounds. There's no questioning their talent and success throughout this season; however, a one-dimensional attack is easier to stop then a well-balanced one (I mentioned this in a previous SOTD). Look no further than last year's Messiah squad for a team reliant on a super striker to deliver the goods that went out earlier than they would have wanted in the tournament.
5. Hopkins - The relative newcomer to the top bunch of teams, I have been impressed with this team's success in big games all season long. While they're probably the most likely top seed to not make it out of the first weekend, if they can maintain focus and continue to show up for the big games, they'll be tough to beat. Home field advantage for the sectional could be enough to flip the script on Tufts and exorcise those 2017 demons. Don't count out an all-Centennial championship, but from a neutral perspective, I would rather see them against Messiah with the trophy on the line.
6. John Carroll - The Rust Belt Quadrant is clearly the weakest. As the favorite to get out of there, they could have an easy route to the Elite 8.
7. Christopher Newport - Haven't heard much about this team, but they keep getting results. If Hopkins slips, they have a pretty easy path to the Elite 8.
8. F&M
9. Chicago
10. Kenyon
Bracket Buster(s) - Roanoke and North Park (you're welcome Mr. Sager)
P.S. Swarthmore at #10 in Mr. Zinner's rankings is hilarious. If I had a house I would bet it against them getting out of the first weekend, and maybe even the first game. If you lose by 4 to a team that didn't even make the tournament, you don't deserve to be considered a contender.
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Annnnnnd the chippiness has begun. I LOVE it!
The box score doesn't tell you everything. W&L was very lucky to not come away with a L in our first match. Noke hit the crossbar late in the 2nd half along with a few other chances. I watched the match and the starting late in the 2nd half and both OTs were very much even with both teams pressing forward. It was a fun one.
Didn't catch the ODAC semi match so cannot comment.
This is a fun time of year.
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Annnnnnd the chippiness has begun. I LOVE it!
The box score doesn't tell you everything. W&L was very lucky to not come away with a L in our first match. Noke hit the crossbar late in the 2nd half along with a few other chances. I watched the match and the starting late in the 2nd half and both OTs were very much even with both teams pressing forward. It was a fun one.
Didn't catch the ODAC semi match so cannot comment.
This is a fun time of year.
It was also the only good shot Roanoke had outside that beautiful corner/header. Nokes' keeper kept out 3 or 4 of W&L's chances that were really solid. He had a very good game. W&L outshot Roanoke 12-3 in the second half and I remember possession being pretty lopsided until very late when it evened out. I'll grant the overtimes were much more even but I remember the Noke keeper laying out pretty good for one of the overtime shots. But we all remember things differently.
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 02:13:39 PM
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Annnnnnd the chippiness has begun. I LOVE it!
The box score doesn't tell you everything. W&L was very lucky to not come away with a L in our first match. Noke hit the crossbar late in the 2nd half along with a few other chances. I watched the match and the starting late in the 2nd half and both OTs were very much even with both teams pressing forward. It was a fun one.
Didn't catch the ODAC semi match so cannot comment.
This is a fun time of year.
It was also the only good shot Roanoke had outside that beautiful corner/header. Nokes' keeper kept out 3 or 4 of W&L's chances that were really solid. He had a very good game. W&L outshot Roanoke 12-3 in the second half and I remember possession being pretty lopsided until very late when it evened out. I'll grant the overtimes were much more even but I remember the Noke keeper laying out pretty good for one of the overtime shots. But we all remember things differently.
Good luck to you man. Let's hope the ODAC makes a nice showing this year.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 01:18:11 PM
Bracket Buster(s) - Roanoke and North Park (you're welcome Mr. Sager)
I appreciate the thought, YB, but I'm content with the fact that nobody is taking NPU seriously. That worked out pretty well for the Vikings two years ago. ;)
Thus far, the only poster who has put in a good word for NPU's chances for a November run is a Wheaton fan, GoThunder1. Having posted some positive thoughts about Wheaton's freshman class this season, I realize that we're in the weird position of having to bolster our league's credibility in this particular online community by speaking up on behalf of our archrivals. ;)
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 02:13:39 PM
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Annnnnnd the chippiness has begun. I LOVE it!
The box score doesn't tell you everything. W&L was very lucky to not come away with a L in our first match. Noke hit the crossbar late in the 2nd half along with a few other chances. I watched the match and the starting late in the 2nd half and both OTs were very much even with both teams pressing forward. It was a fun one.
Didn't catch the ODAC semi match so cannot comment.
This is a fun time of year.
It was also the only good shot Roanoke had outside that beautiful corner/header. Nokes' keeper kept out 3 or 4 of W&L's chances that were really solid. He had a very good game. W&L outshot Roanoke 12-3 in the second half and I remember possession being pretty lopsided until very late when it evened out. I'll grant the overtimes were much more even but I remember the Noke keeper laying out pretty good for one of the overtime shots. But we all remember things differently.
Good luck to you man. Let's hope the ODAC makes a nice showing this year.
Yes. I'd like to see both go deep. Realistically, I think W&L has a good chance of getting out of their quad, especially at home. Tufts, however, is not a happy opponent for anyone this time of year. We will have to see if everyone can hold serve. So long as W&L holds their scoring touch, they should be ok. Other than the Hopkins game, the defense has been solid. W&L is fairly young, only 3 seniors, and they have relied on scoring coming from lots of places rather than one reliable target. Those two factors can cause some heartburn this time of year. We will see.
I hope Noke gets a shot at JHU if the BlueJays hold serve. Would like a little ODAC redemption there after the Generals early season misery. Don't know much about Swarthmore, but CNU will be no joke either.
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
For me, a bracket buster is inherently an outsider team (outside the top 16) with a chance to make it further than you might think, due to matchups, bracket draw, etc. I think that Roanoke has a pretty winnable pod and will make it further than other people are predicting. Maybe Cinderella would be a good way to describe them (although I don't want to risk offending anyone with a gender normative description... ;)).
As for W&L, as I've said before, I think that losses by multiple goals are pretty incriminating in D3 soccer. So by my count, W&L falls in the 12-18 range, and as such, might be one of the bottom teams remaining when we get to the Sweet 16. I definitely have W&L ranked ahead of Roanoke, but they're too good to be included as a "Bracket Buster". Sorry, I had to cut my rankings off somewhere, and they just missed the cut.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
For me, a bracket buster is inherently an outsider team (outside the top 16) with a chance to make it further than you might think, due to matchups, bracket draw, etc. I think that Roanoke has a pretty winnable pod and will make it further than other people are predicting. Maybe Cinderella would be a good way to describe them (although I don't want to risk offending anyone with a gender normative description... ;)).
As for W&L, as I've said before, I think that losses by multiple goals are pretty incriminating in D3 soccer. So by my count, W&L falls in the 12-18 range, and as such, might be one of the bottom teams remaining when we get to the Sweet 16. I definitely have W&L ranked ahead of Roanoke, but they're too good to be included as a "Bracket Buster". Sorry, I had to cut my rankings off somewhere, and they just missed the cut.
Oh that makes sense. And yes, I agree with W&L in the 12-18 range. I've said multiple times that I think they are one tier below the true national champ competitors right now. The JHU loss... uggh. Of course, it's the only game all year they gave up more than 1 goal, so it's an outlier of one kind or another. JHU put 5 of their 8 on goal past the goalie, one a PK and the other 4 all during the run of play. I'll give JHU credit for being clinical and merciless with their chances!
I figured it would be a long season given the youth and that result, but the run of form after the JHU loss really sparked the season. We will see how this young W&L team does in the tournament. I hope they get a chance to test themselves against Tufts.
Since walking across the street would be tougher for Tufts than their opening weekend, I am hoping beyond hope that Tufts has to go through W&L AND JHU. Not that Tufts won't still be favored, but geez, there ought to be some difficulty reaching the Final Four. And there is enough I don't know about W&L to predict that W&L is not overrated and that W&L can beat the Jumbos if they get the chance. It's time for W&L to reach another level, and as I think I mentioned a few weeks ago, Singleton I think can match Shapiro on smarts and poise.
Quote from: NokeAlum15 on November 13, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Annnnnnd the chippiness has begun. I LOVE it!
The box score doesn't tell you everything. W&L was very lucky to not come away with a L in our first match. Noke hit the crossbar late in the 2nd half along with a few other chances. I watched the match and the starting late in the 2nd half and both OTs were very much even with both teams pressing forward. It was a fun one.
Didn't catch the ODAC semi match so cannot comment.
This is a fun time of year.
Yes! It's great fun to see how many of us start getting amped up...and irritated by the slightest slights and insults. The next two weeks are like the first two weeks of March Madness. Will be over in the blink of an eye. Enjoy!
Paul I wouldn't give Tufts a double bye to the sweet sixteen yet. We already remember what happened the last time Tufts won a NESCAC. They when 330 NCAA minutes with out a goal and escaped the first weekend on penalties. Sure they are going to beat SUNY Maritime barring the biggest upset of the decade. But Stevens game then problems last year and Nazareth should be solid from that conference. And WPI is a team that will be able to come in and soak up pressure and make it difficult for Tufts to play. They are favorites to emerge but it's going to take some moments of magic and discipline in the back to make it happen. The reason soccer is the best game in the world is anyone can truly beat anyone
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2019, 08:55:16 PM
Paul I wouldn’t give Tufts a double bye to the sweet sixteen yet. We already remember what happened the last time Tufts won a NESCAC. They when 330 NCAA minutes with out a goal and escaped the first weekend on penalties. Sure they are going to beat SUNY Maritime barring the biggest upset of the decade. But Stevens game then problems last year and Nazareth should be solid from that conference. And WPI is a team that will be able to come in and soak up pressure and make it difficult for Tufts to play. They are favorites to emerge but it’s going to take some moments of magic and discipline in the back to make it happen. The reason soccer is the best game in the world is anyone can truly beat anyone
If I told you before the season or even now, Tufts has to beat WPI to get to the Sweet 16, would you take that? And that's assuming WPI gets by Nazareth. As for Jeff Van Gundy's alma mater, I would think it is inconceivable to you that Tufts could lose to Nazareth.
As you well know, Tufts has lost two NCAA games since 2014....one in the last minute and the other deep into either the 1st or 2nd OT, and both against legit nationally elite teams, and I"m sure you nor any other Jumbo thinks you should have lost either of those games. I'm certainly not opposed to WPI getting by Tufts, but I'm not counting on it.
Sure if you gave me a home game at home against anyone to reach the sweet 16 I'd take it. I think that's got to be the mentality. You make adjustments based on the opponent but at the end of the day it doesn't matter who's on the other side. If you take care of business you're going to be okay.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 13, 2019, 09:06:38 PM
Sure if you gave me a home game at home against anyone to reach the sweet 16 I'd take it. I think that's got to be the mentality. You make adjustments based on the opponent but at the end of the day it doesn't matter who's on the other side. If you take care of business you're going to be okay.
But would you rather have a home game in the round of 32 against WPI or UMass-Boston OR Messiah or Hopkins or let's say Midd (a week after beating Midd)?
Bracket time!
32: Amherst, Keene St, Keystone, Rowan, Rensselaer, JWU, Messiah, Oneonta, John Carroll, Centre, Texas Lutheran, Trinity TX, F&M, Montclair St, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Catholic, Christopher Newport, Swarthmore, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Oglethorpe, Chicago, Ohio Wesleyan, Luther, Wis. Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Gust. Adolphus
16: Amherst, Rowan, JWU, Messiah, John Carroll, Trinity TX, F&M, Kenyon, Catholic, Chris. Newport, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Luther, Calvin, North Park
8: Amherst, Messiah, John Carroll, Kenyon, Catholic, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
4: Amherst, Kenyon, Tufts, Chicago
Final: Kenyon vs. Tufts - Kenyon Wins
YB's Predictions:
32: Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Oneonta, JCU, Centre, CMS, Trinity TX, F&M, Montclair, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Conn, CNU, Roanoke, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Gettysburg, Chicago, OWU, Luther, UW-Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Gustavus
16: Amherst, Mary Wash, Middlebury, Messiah, JCU, Trinity TX, Montclair, Kenyon, Hopkins, Roanoke, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Luther, Calvin, North Park
8: Amherst, Messiah, JCU, Kenyon, Hopkins, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
4: Messiah, JCU, Hopkins, Calvin
Final: Messiah 3-1 Hopkins
32: Amherst, Keene St, Mary Washington, Rowan, Rensselaer, Middlebury, Messiah, SUNY Oneonta, John Carroll, Centre, Texas Lutheran, Trinity TX, F&M, Montclair St, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Conn C., Christopher Newport, Swarthmore, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Oglethorpe, Chicago, OWU, Luther, Wis. Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Colorado C.
16: Amherst, Rowan, Middlebury, Messiah, John Carroll, Texas Lutheran, F&M, Kenyon, Hopkins, Christopher Newport, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Luther, Calvin, North Park
8: Amherst, Messiah, John Carroll, Kenyon, Hopkins, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
4: Amherst, Kenyon, Hopkins, Calvin
Final: Kenyon/Calvin
Winner: Kenyon
I have seen WPI play twice this season. D4Pace is correct they will be no pushover. They will be parking the bus BUT they have more all around talent than they have in the past. This allows them to be effective on the counter and watch for the Frosh Valagussa in the middle of the park. WPI is your typical "cold weather team". They have enough size to deal with Tufts and are quite organized in the back. They also play with a bit of a chip on their shoulder and are becoming more and more of a physical team each year under this Head Coach. They are 12-3-4 but those 3 Losses were all 1-0 losses in tight games. They are battle tested and have played a challenging schedule and will give Tufts a fight.
Question: WHERE ARE ALL THE NIGHT GAMES?????
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2019, 05:38:46 PM
I have seen WPI play twice this season. D4Pace is correct they will be no pushover. They will be parking the bus BUT they have more all around talent than they have in the past. This allows them to be effective on the counter and watch for the Frosh Valagussa in the middle of the park. WPI is your typical "cold weather team". They have enough size to deal with Tufts and are quite organized in the back. They also play with a bit of a chip on their shoulder and are becoming more and more of a physical team each year under this Head Coach. They are 12-3-4 but those 3 Losses were all 1-0 losses in tight games. They are battle tested and have played a challenging schedule and will give Tufts a fight.
Question: WHERE ARE ALL THE NIGHT GAMES?????
Fair enough, but would you argue that Tufts didn't get a favorable draw? Would rather play Rowan or Christopher Newport or Rochester or Conn in the round of 32 over WPI? Of course the mindset has to be that you can beat anyone, but that wasn't the question.
Id rather play any team from the NJAC... Just look at Montclair state in the elite 8 last year. I'll take Tufts in a wide open game against anyone in the country.
Also Valgussa is the man. He put in one of the greatest summer camp performances i have ever seen while I was helping out at one of them. Kids gonna be a stud.
My bracket buster is Rowan. They have a very favorable first round matchup before facing off with UMW. I think they can beat UMW as they proved in September they can play with top competition (Chicago, North Park, Montclair St). I also have seen UMW play and they play a very nice brand of possession soccer with a strong central midfield but they lack the dominate goal scorer up top which I think could lead to an unexpectedly early exit. 11 of their games have been decided by one goal or have been draws so they aren't dominating teams by any means.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2019, 05:38:46 PM
I have seen WPI play twice this season. D4Pace is correct they will be no pushover. They will be parking the bus BUT they have more all around talent than they have in the past. This allows them to be effective on the counter and watch for the Frosh Valagussa in the middle of the park. WPI is your typical "cold weather team". They have enough size to deal with Tufts and are quite organized in the back. They also play with a bit of a chip on their shoulder and are becoming more and more of a physical team each year under this Head Coach. They are 12-3-4 but those 3 Losses were all 1-0 losses in tight games. They are battle tested and have played a challenging schedule and will give Tufts a fight.
Question: WHERE ARE ALL THE NIGHT GAMES?????
The NCAA is making a conscious decision to avoid night games as much as possible. Mid-November at night can be significantly worse than mid-November during the day.
Absolutely gorgeous day here in the DMV for the Catholic hosted pod.
Round of 32:
Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Babson
John Carroll, Kalamazoo, CMS, Trinity, Franklin & Marshall, Montclair St, Kenyon, Rochester
Johns Hopkins, Conn College, Christopher Newport, Roanoke, Tufts, WPI, Wash & Lee, Oglethorpe
Chicago, Ohio Wesleyan, Luther, Wis. Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Gust. Adolphus
Sweet 16:
Amherst, Rowan, Middlebury, Messiah
John Carroll, Trinity, Franklin & Marshall, Rochester
Johns Hopkins, Christopher Newport, Tufts, Washington & Lee
Chicago, Luther, Calvin, Gust. Adolphus
Elite 8:
Amherst, Messiah
John Carroll, Franklin & Marshall
Johns Hopkins, Tufts
Chicago, Calvin
Final Four:
Amherst, Franklin & Marshall, Johns Hopkins, Chicago
Finals:
Amherst, Chicago
Champion:
Chicago
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 14, 2019, 10:29:25 PM
My bracket buster is Rowan. They have a very favorable first round matchup before facing off with UMW. I think they can beat UMW as they proved in September they can play with top competition (Chicago, North Park, Montclair St). I also have seen UMW play and they play a very nice brand of possession soccer with a strong central midfield but they lack the dominate goal scorer up top which I think could lead to an unexpectedly early exit. 11 of their games have been decided by one goal or have been draws so they aren’t dominating teams by any means.
IMO a bracket buster is a team that beats a big-time team in the 1st or 2nd round and/or one that gets beyond the Sweet 16. Rowan is a big-time team, and I think most would call a potential MW versus Rowan tilt pretty much a toss-up. In any case, the winner (if it happens) will advance for the privilege of facing Amherst. Now, if either takes out Amherst then I would call Rowan or MW a bracket buster. Maybe 'sleeper' pick is more what you meant, and ironically MW is one of my sleeper picks as well as W&L.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
For me, a bracket buster is inherently an outsider team (outside the top 16) with a chance to make it further than you might think, due to matchups, bracket draw, etc. I think that Roanoke has a pretty winnable pod and will make it further than other people are predicting. Maybe Cinderella would be a good way to describe them (although I don't want to risk offending anyone with a gender normative description... ;)).
As for W&L, as I've said before, I think that losses by multiple goals are pretty incriminating in D3 soccer. So by my count, W&L falls in the 12-18 range, and as such, might be one of the bottom teams remaining when we get to the Sweet 16. I definitely have W&L ranked ahead of Roanoke, but they're too good to be included as a "Bracket Buster". Sorry, I had to cut my rankings off somewhere, and they just missed the cut.
I was using YoungBucks definition when claiming Rowan was a "bracket buster." I agree they are probably more of a sleeper pick because no one is talking about them and a lot of attention has been given to UMW. I'm not so sure an 11 win team getting an at large bid is a "big time team" however.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 15, 2019, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
For me, a bracket buster is inherently an outsider team (outside the top 16) with a chance to make it further than you might think, due to matchups, bracket draw, etc. I think that Roanoke has a pretty winnable pod and will make it further than other people are predicting. Maybe Cinderella would be a good way to describe them (although I don't want to risk offending anyone with a gender normative description... ;)).
As for W&L, as I've said before, I think that losses by multiple goals are pretty incriminating in D3 soccer. So by my count, W&L falls in the 12-18 range, and as such, might be one of the bottom teams remaining when we get to the Sweet 16. I definitely have W&L ranked ahead of Roanoke, but they're too good to be included as a "Bracket Buster". Sorry, I had to cut my rankings off somewhere, and they just missed the cut.
I was using YoungBucks definition when claiming Rowan was a "bracket buster." I agree they are probably more of a sleeper pick because no one is talking about them and a lot of attention has been given to UMW. I'm not so sure an 11 win team getting an at large bid is a "big time team" however.
I follow you, but Roanoke isn't a team that anyone (I don't think anyone here) projected as even making the tournament. And while Rowan may or may not be a big-time team right now they are a big-time program and they have played other big-time programs this year. Just a couple of years ago I believe they were one of the top 2-3 picks to win the national title but were ousted at home by Tufts in a tight 1-0 affair. Anyway, you are forecasting Rowan to win only one more game than you might expect, or are you also forecasting that they will knock Amherst out, or that MW would knock out Amherst if not beaten by Rowan?
Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The NCAA is making a conscious decision to avoid night games as much as possible. Mid-November at night can be significantly worse than mid-November during the day.
Really? If so, why didn't they do this in years past?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic — I just don't get why, if this is a conscious decision, it allegedly wasn't made (or at least not explicitly) in previous years given that cold mid-November weather is not new. Perhaps the recent cold snap would have something to do with it?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 11:37:19 AM
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 15, 2019, 11:28:06 AM
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 13, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting you list Roanoke as a bracket buster when they were twice outplayed by W&L who is overrated. I don't dispute W&L, should they get there, will have a real tough draw against Tufts. But I don't see Roanoke being better. Box score on the W&L/Roanoke tie was 24(7) 11(3) shots in favor of W&L. Corners 10 to 7. Frankly, W&L was very unlucky not to win that game. As for the ODAC tournament semifinal, W&L won 2-1. 11(4) 6(4) shots in favor for W&L 3-3 corners in a much more even game on a neutral site field.
I don't see either going past the round of 16, but I'd put my money on W&L getting there over Roanoke. We will see, however.
For me, a bracket buster is inherently an outsider team (outside the top 16) with a chance to make it further than you might think, due to matchups, bracket draw, etc. I think that Roanoke has a pretty winnable pod and will make it further than other people are predicting. Maybe Cinderella would be a good way to describe them (although I don't want to risk offending anyone with a gender normative description... ;)).
As for W&L, as I've said before, I think that losses by multiple goals are pretty incriminating in D3 soccer. So by my count, W&L falls in the 12-18 range, and as such, might be one of the bottom teams remaining when we get to the Sweet 16. I definitely have W&L ranked ahead of Roanoke, but they're too good to be included as a "Bracket Buster". Sorry, I had to cut my rankings off somewhere, and they just missed the cut.
I was using YoungBucks definition when claiming Rowan was a "bracket buster." I agree they are probably more of a sleeper pick because no one is talking about them and a lot of attention has been given to UMW. I'm not so sure an 11 win team getting an at large bid is a "big time team" however.
I follow you, but Roanoke isn't a team that anyone (I don't think anyone here) projected as even making the tournament. And while Rowan may or may not be a big-time team right now they are a big-time program and they have played other big-time programs this year. Just a couple of years ago I believe they were one of the top 2-3 picks to win the national title but were ousted at home by Tufts in a tight 1-0 affair. Anyway, you are forecasting Rowan to win only one more game than you might expect, or are you also forecasting that they will knock Amherst out, or that MW would knock out Amherst if not beaten by Rowan?
Understood, I was just going off of this year. This year I personally am more impressed with Nokes season than Rowan's, I might be alone thinking that. Seems like everyone is picking a guaranteed UMW-Amherst sweet sixteen matchup and I'm picking Rowan-Amherst. I'll stop there with my long shot predictions though and think Amherst will advance.
Round of 32:
Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Oneonta St
John Carroll, Centre, CMS, Trinity, Franklin & Marshall, Hobart, Kenyon, Rochester
Johns Hopkins, Conn College, Christopher Newport, Swat, Tufts, WPI, Wash & Lee, Oglethorpe
Chicago, Hope, Luther, Central, Calvin, St. Norbert, North Park, GAC
Sweet 16:
Amherst, UMW, Middlebury, Messiah
John Carroll, CMS, Franklin & Marshall, Rochester
Conn College, Christopher Newport, Tufts, Washington & Lee
Chicago, Luther, Calvin, GAC
Elite 8:
UMW, Messiah
John Carroll, Franklin & Marshall
Conn College, W&L
Chicago, Calvin
Final Four:
Messiah, Franklin & Marshall, W&L, Chicago
Finals:
Messiah, Chicago
Champion:
Chicago
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 09:11:28 AM
Absolutely gorgeous day here in the DMV for the Catholic hosted pod.
I'm guessing the visiting teams have arrived and are training on the field today, including Hopkins? Is Hopkins staying down in DC tonight?
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 15, 2019, 12:34:25 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 09:11:28 AM
Absolutely gorgeous day here in the DMV for the Catholic hosted pod.
I'm guessing the visiting teams have arrived and are training on the field today, including Hopkins? Is Hopkins staying down in DC tonight?
It's a good question. I posted earlier, it's a REALLY short drive. You could get down there in 45 minutes, train for 60-90 and be back home in time for an early dinner. Just not sure the AD would spring for an overnight at that point.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 15, 2019, 11:45:06 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The NCAA is making a conscious decision to avoid night games as much as possible. Mid-November at night can be significantly worse than mid-November during the day.
Really? If so, why didn't they do this in years past?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic — I just don't get why, if this is a conscious decision, it allegedly wasn't made (or at least not explicitly) in previous years given that cold mid-November weather is not new. Perhaps the recent cold snap would have something to do with it?
This push to daytime games started several years ago on the women's side and starting last year was required for both men and women. In both last years's and this year's Pre-Championship Manual the default games times were the following:
Option 1: Day 1 - 11:00 am & 1:30 pm, Day 2 - 1:00 pm
Option 2: Day 1 - 1:00 pm & 3:30 pm, Day 2 - 3:00 pm
Requests for exceptions to these two options need to be made a week before the tournament starts when submitting facility evaluation forms. I think since last year was the first year under the new policy on the men's side, they may have been more lenient in granting exceptions. Who knows. And since the preference for women to play day games was pushed, there have always been exceptions granted. I think one of the acceptable reasons for granting an exception is when a campus has multiple sporting events on the same day and staffing, parking, broadcasting, etc. would be over-stretched/inadequate with too many events happening simultaneous. But the default is day time games starting last year.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 15, 2019, 12:45:00 PM
This push to daytime games started several years ago on the women's side and starting last year was required for both men and women. In both last years's and this year's Pre-Championship Manual the default games times were the following:
Option 1: Day 1 - 11:00 am & 1:30 pm, Day 2 - 1:00 pm
Option 2: Day 1 - 1:00 pm & 3:30 pm, Day 2 - 3:00 pm
Requests for exceptions to these two options need to be made a week before the tournament starts when submitting facility evaluation forms. I think since last year was the first year under the new policy on the men's side, they may have been more lenient in granting exceptions. Who knows. And since the preference for women to play day games was pushed, there have always been exceptions granted. I think one of the acceptable reasons for granting an exception is when a campus has multiple sporting events on the same day and staffing, parking, broadcasting, etc. would be over-stretched/inadequate with too many events happening simultaneous. But the default is day time games starting last year.
Interesting. Offhand, while not the 1st and 2nd Round games, I remember the CWRU sectional games being at night last year — although perhaps that has something to do with Calvin not playing on Sundays. That would seem to be a legitimate exception.
My "bracket buster" (if they can be considered as such) is Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. They haven't given up many goals this year, which tends to bode well for tournament success. On top of that, they are battle-tested with a good non-conference schedule where they ended up coming out on top a majority of the time. They have a LB (I believe he was an all american last year), William Birchard, who has elite ability from dead ball situations both in terms of service from corners and deeper free kicks, as well as shooting situations. Taking advantage of set pieces can make or break teams in the tournament, and they have the ability to do so. I definitely like their odds getting into the sweet 16, which sets up a potential matchup with John Carroll, in which I think they could sneak a W.
Quote from: RollToms on November 15, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
My "bracket buster" (if they can be considered as such) is Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. They haven't given up many goals this year, which tends to bode well for tournament success. On top of that, they are battle-tested with a good non-conference schedule where they ended up coming out on top a majority of the time. They have a LB (I believe he was an all american last year), William Birchard, who has elite ability from dead ball situations both in terms of service from corners and deeper free kicks, as well as shooting situations. Taking advantage of set pieces can make or break teams in the tournament, and they have the ability to do so. I definitely like their odds getting into the sweet 16, which sets up a potential matchup with John Carroll, in which I think they could sneak a W.
Good call....We tend to not see teams from the West as potential bracket busters or sleepers or whatever. We tend to not think of them at all, almost as though the Trinity pod is some sort of little JV tournament or like the March Madness play-in games before the real tournament starts. JCU is deservedly a favorite in that quadrant, but the vast majority of their games are 1 goal affairs. They are beatable. Centre or Kzoo could beat them. And what about hard-charging Texas Lutheran? They smacked Trinity and Colorado Coll around back to back, so CMS will have their hands full with Texas Lutheran.
Today's slate of games, all times EST:
Chicago - Dominican 2:30
Hope - OWU 5:00
https://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2019-20/schedule
Calvin - Wis. Whitewater 1:00
ONU - St. Norbert 3:30
The Calvin game is tied at the half 0-0. Funkiness on the stream, can't seem to figure it out.
https://livestream.com/calvin-university/events/6314584
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 15, 2019, 12:34:25 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 09:11:28 AM
Absolutely gorgeous day here in the DMV for the Catholic hosted pod.
I'm guessing the visiting teams have arrived and are training on the field today, including Hopkins? Is Hopkins staying down in DC tonight?
It's a good question. I posted earlier, it's a REALLY short drive. You could get down there in 45 minutes, train for 60-90 and be back home in time for an early dinner. Just not sure the AD would spring for an overnight at that point.
This ALL assuming no traffic. And as anyone in this region would know, traffic is VERY likely even on a good day. It is more like an hour on a good day and could be two hours easily - especially since for Hopkins they would have to go through Baltimore or go around the beltway to and from their campus.
Furthermore, the NCAA pays for hotel rooms for traveling teams. Not something the AD has to worry about technically paying for (unless they go over the allotment given by the NCAA).
One of the biggest reasons NOT to bring the team back to Hopkins... the fact that three separate regional are being hosted by Hopkins: women's volleyball, women's soccer, and field hockey. Plus other sports (though, football and one or two others is on the road). There would be NO practice time available for the men's soccer team on the turf.
Better to just stay in DC.
Good intel on the rooms being paid for.
If coach Appleby can keep the kids together and away from distractions, of course he'll do it.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 02:08:30 PM
https://livestream.com/calvin-university/events/6314584
Brrr. Looks cold and windy there, but at least it's sunny.
Yeah, this Calvin game is another advertisement for turf. Guys are on skates out there. Calvin absolutely dominating (1-0) but it's hard to make the killer move when the rug gets pulled out every time you cut. Game should be 2-3-4 to nothing, but for the opposing keeper and the field conditions.
Intrigue in Holland, folks! Dominican ties it up 1-1 in the first half.
I'm pretty sure it was 2 v. 5 or 6. Pretty bad defending from Chicago there. And totally against the overall run of play.
If you have to play on turf that Hope set-up is the way to go. Beautiful pitch with no football lines (or lacrosse or field hockey). Some impressive snow just barely off the field.
And now Chicago 2-1.
Yeah, I don't see this gaming going any other way than 3 or 4-1. One way traffic, despite that weird Dominican goal midway through.
The Calvin win was off an own goal, but holy wow does that not tell the story of domination in that game. Gotta be close to 20 Shots (8-10 SOGs) for the Knights and but for some brilliant goaltending and a spot of luck, that game was headed towards a blowout.
??? Is there not a stream for the St. Norb's v. Polar Bears match today?????
Seems odd
Quote from: Medicated Pete on November 15, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
??? Is there not a stream for the St. Norb's v. Polar Bears match today?????
Seems odd
I'm looking for it, too. At the end of the last broadcast, the commentators said they would be back with us in about 30 minutes, so I would assume it'll go up?
Yeah, I put up a bunch of links in the streaming thread.
The way it works is you go to the host of the pods schedule page, and then click on Watch Video. The streaming option will come up there. https://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2019-20/schedule
But here's a direct link to their YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/hopeathletics
It will pop up as an option closer to game time.
(The vast majority of the schools use the Stretch platform, which is a little more intuitive and also lists both games for that pod, leaving the confusion and guesswork out of the equation.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 03:37:17 PM
Yeah, I put up a bunch of links in the streaming thread.
The way it works is you go to the host of the pods schedule page, and then click on Watch Video. The streaming option will come up there. https://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2019-20/schedule
But here's a direct link to their YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/hopeathletics
It will pop up as an option closer to game time.
(The vast majority of the schools use the Stretch platform, which is a little more intuitive and also lists both games for that pod, leaving the confusion and guesswork out of the equation.)
SNC v ONU is in Calvin's pod. Calvin uses Vimeo for their streams, and the website is all over the place. For example, they had the previous game under Men's soccer 2018, so who knows.
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 15, 2019, 03:45:17 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 03:37:17 PM
Yeah, I put up a bunch of links in the streaming thread.
The way it works is you go to the host of the pods schedule page, and then click on Watch Video. The streaming option will come up there. https://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2019-20/schedule
But here's a direct link to their YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/hopeathletics
It will pop up as an option closer to game time.
(The vast majority of the schools use the Stretch platform, which is a little more intuitive and also lists both games for that pod, leaving the confusion and guesswork out of the equation.)
SNC v ONU is in Calvin's pod. Calvin uses Vimeo for their streams, and the website is all over the place. For example, they had the previous game under Men's soccer 2018, so who knows.
Yeah, sorry for the slight confusion, I actually posted the link on here upthread, ^^^
but didn't want to junk up this thread with a bunch of links, so moved the full list over to the streaming thread.
It definitely took more work to figure that one out.
Regardless of the eventual outcome (as its 0-0, currently), the fact that SNC and ONU, and previously, Calvin and UWW, have to play on this sad excuse for a pitch in do-or-die games is not a good look. There is literally a giant mud patch that covers approximately 1/3 of the pitch, as well as in front of both goals, and players are basically ice skating out there. You'd think for a perennial powerhouse, Calvin would be able to upgrade their facilities so this wouldn't have to happen.
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 15, 2019, 04:12:29 PM
Regardless of the eventual outcome (as its 0-0, currently), the fact that SNC and ONU, and previously, Calvin and UWW, have to play on this sad excuse for a pitch in do-or-die games is not a good look. There is literally a giant mud patch that covers approximately 1/3 of the pitch, as well as in front of both goals, and players are basically ice skating out there. You'd think for a perennial powerhouse, Calvin would be able to upgrade their facilities so this wouldn't have to happen.
This is an issue every year, which is why it was discussed earlier this week. I thought the NCAA had a list of requirements for fields in order for them to be eligible to host a tournament game? If so they need to look into reevaluating those requirements as I agree you don't want a match decided due to poor field conditions, plus there are enough programs with nice facilities that there's no excuse.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 15, 2019, 11:45:06 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The NCAA is making a conscious decision to avoid night games as much as possible. Mid-November at night can be significantly worse than mid-November during the day.
Really? If so, why didn't they do this in years past?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic — I just don't get why, if this is a conscious decision, it allegedly wasn't made (or at least not explicitly) in previous years given that cold mid-November weather is not new. Perhaps the recent cold snap would have something to do with it?
That was the word communicated to schools putting in bids
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 15, 2019, 04:23:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 15, 2019, 04:12:29 PM
Regardless of the eventual outcome (as its 0-0, currently), the fact that SNC and ONU, and previously, Calvin and UWW, have to play on this sad excuse for a pitch in do-or-die games is not a good look. There is literally a giant mud patch that covers approximately 1/3 of the pitch, as well as in front of both goals, and players are basically ice skating out there. You'd think for a perennial powerhouse, Calvin would be able to upgrade their facilities so this wouldn't have to happen.
This is an issue every year, which is why it was discussed earlier this week. I thought the NCAA had a list of requirements for fields in order for them to be eligible to host a tournament game? If so they need to look into reevaluating those requirements as I agree you don't want a match decided due to poor field conditions, plus there are enough programs with nice facilities that there's no excuse.
It's weird, because as you allude to, a better quality pitch would certainly favor their style of play.
To wit, Chicago wraps up a fairly predictable 4-1 win over on Hope's sparkling turf facilities. The Maroons used snappy combination passing to open up the opponents and sliced and diced their way to an easy victory.
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 15, 2019, 04:12:29 PM
Regardless of the eventual outcome (as its 0-0, currently), the fact that SNC and ONU, and previously, Calvin and UWW, have to play on this sad excuse for a pitch in do-or-die games is not a good look. There is literally a giant mud patch that covers approximately 1/3 of the pitch, as well as in front of both goals, and players are basically ice skating out there. You'd think for a perennial powerhouse, Calvin would be able to upgrade their facilities so this wouldn't have to happen.
Calvin's facility is usually quite nice during the year. Having a grass pitch is wonderful for most of the contests and much, much better than playing on artificial. However, when there is an early, heavy snow like their was this year, it makes it difficult to keep the field in the shape it normally is throughout the year. Last year the same thing happened but the pitch was still in reasonable shape. Must have been a bigger snow this year. Also, don't rip on the grounds crew at Calvin, they do an incredible job. Sometimes conditions don't work out for you.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 15, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 15, 2019, 11:45:06 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The NCAA is making a conscious decision to avoid night games as much as possible. Mid-November at night can be significantly worse than mid-November during the day.
Really? If so, why didn't they do this in years past?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic — I just don't get why, if this is a conscious decision, it allegedly wasn't made (or at least not explicitly) in previous years given that cold mid-November weather is not new. Perhaps the recent cold snap would have something to do with it?
Shirk corroborated either upthread or elsewhere on the board. Women went this route recently and it's now the law of the land for both sides of the equation.
That was the word communicated to schools putting in bids
One of the nice things about a good turf field like at Hope (despite my own preference for grass) is that Hope for example could have hosted 4 games and then two the next day. Calvin has used Hope's field before ("lost" in PKs to OWU there in 2014) and could have hosted via Hope. Also would be great for spectators and provide some extra juice at the sites. One also has to wonder whether in 25 years there will be any grass fields.
It's a shame, because SNC vs. ONU has been very competitive. Alas, Zuidema Field is a giant Slip'n'Slide. It appeared that the Green Knights had a breakaway opportunity quashed midway through the first half because the onrusher lost his footing at the edge of the eighteen.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2019, 04:56:40 PM
It's a shame, because SNC vs. ONU has been very competitive. Alas, Zuidema Field is a giant Slip'n'Slide. It appeared that the Green Knights had a breakaway opportunity quashed midway through the first half because the onrusher lost his footing at the edge of the eighteen.
Yeah Boldt literally had just the keeper to beat,
but he got caught by the mud monster.
St. Norbert and Ohio Northern play to a scoreless draw, and then the Green Knights advance on PKs, 3-2. Two of the Polar Bears' PKers missed the goal completely.
Both sides had lots of great chances, but the Green Knights were running on fumes at the end of regulation and through both OTs. Somehow they managed to string it out through 110 and get to PKs, and then took proper advantage of the tiebreaker. ONU had two or three great opportunities late and in OT scoot just wide of the net to one side or the other.
St. Norbert is the first MWC side to get past the first round since Carroll did it seven years ago. Of course, the Pioneers have since left the MWC -- as SNC will also do two years from now.
Hope looks to be very physical, bordering on chippy.
And now OWU is looking very frustrated....Hope beating them to balls and winning a lot of the 50/50s.
Quote from: golordsiamlord on November 14, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
Bracket time!
32: Amherst, Keene St, Keystone, Rowan, Rensselaer, JWU, Messiah, Oneonta, John Carroll, Centre, Texas Lutheran, Trinity TX, F&M, Montclair St, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Catholic, Christopher Newport, Swarthmore, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Oglethorpe, Chicago, Ohio Wesleyan, Luther, Wis. Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Gust. Adolphus
16: Amherst, Rowan, JWU, Messiah, John Carroll, Trinity TX, F&M, Kenyon, Catholic, Chris. Newport, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Luther, Calvin, North Park
8: Amherst, Messiah, John Carroll, Kenyon, Catholic, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
4: Amherst, Kenyon, Tufts, Chicago
Final: Kenyon vs. Tufts - Kenyon Wins
The Lord having a little faith in Catholic, god bless
This is a VERY entertaining game to watch, as a complete neutral.
As I'm typing that, OWU with an absolute bangeranggggg! Smashed it home off a loose ball following a CK. Hoooo boy.
Gonna be a barn burner down the stretch.
OWU somehow found another gear, especially after the 1st goal. The guys up top are running their behinds off. And the left back that scored the 1st goal imo might be OWU's best player....and I don't think he even made HM on the NCAC team, and that's with OWU having a bunch of players making all-conference. The 2nd goal scorer, Gomez, was named midfielder of year in NCAC.
Addedum: My bad, Huelsman did make 2nd team NCAC.
OK, maybe just watching the Flying Dutchmen's barn get burned.
2-0 OWU with 11 minutes left.
Holy wow are they nasty on the counter. Hector Gomez with a special goal there to pretty much put it away. 1 v. 4/5 depending on your math.
That second OWU goal was an absolute howler for the Hope defense. Not even going full speed, he dribbles past 6 players going in a straight line, with nary a one challenging him, and beats the keeper going to far post on the ground. OOF
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 07:08:15 PM
OWU somehow found another gear, especially after the 1st goal. The guys up top are running their behinds off. And the left back that scored the 1st goal imo might be OWU's best player....and I don't think he even made HM on the NCAC team, and that's with OWU having a bunch of players making all-conference. The 2nd goal scorer, Gomez, was named midfielder of year in NCAC.
Addedum: My bad, Huelsman did make 2nd team NCAC.
Huelsman's goal is ESPN Top 10 level, no? Just an absolute rocket.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 15, 2019, 07:14:21 PM
That second OWU goal was an absolute howler for the Hope defense. Not even going full speed, he dribbles past 6 players going in a straight line, with nary a one challenging him, and beats the keeper going to far post on the ground. OOF
That was absolutely brutal. I have no idea what the LB was doing there... push him to the touchline. GK didn't really have much to do there, he was dead-to-rights.
There was an OWU pylon making a random run, but there were 6 Hope defenders back on that play.
Dagger
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 07:08:15 PM
OWU somehow found another gear, especially after the 1st goal. The guys up top are running their behinds off. And the left back that scored the 1st goal imo might be OWU's best player....and I don't think he even made HM on the NCAC team, and that's with OWU having a bunch of players making all-conference. The 2nd goal scorer, Gomez, was named midfielder of year in NCAC.
Addedum: My bad, Huelsman did make 2nd team NCAC.
He came pretty close to getting a second card in the waning seconds after helping to break up a last-gasp Hope attack in front of the left post. He was yelling something in the direction of the CR, who started stepping toward him, and he was lucky he had a teammate intervene and push him away until his head cooled.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2019, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 07:08:15 PM
OWU somehow found another gear, especially after the 1st goal. The guys up top are running their behinds off. And the left back that scored the 1st goal imo might be OWU's best player....and I don't think he even made HM on the NCAC team, and that's with OWU having a bunch of players making all-conference. The 2nd goal scorer, Gomez, was named midfielder of year in NCAC.
Addedum: My bad, Huelsman did make 2nd team NCAC.
He came pretty close to getting a second card in the waning seconds after helping to break up a last-gasp Hope attack in front of the left post. He was yelling something in the direction of the CR, who started stepping toward him, and he was lucky he had a teammate intervene and push him away until his head cooled.
Was that Huelsman? I wondered what the heck he was doing. He was very fortunate a teammate rushed him and very lucky that the ref didn't give him a 2nd yellow and knock him out of the Chicago game. I'm sure Jay Martin is livid with him. He's also very valuable because he can throw the ball on a rope 30 yards into the box on throw-ins.
There have been mentions about how good of a 2nd round battle Messiah versus Oneonta would be (except that Babson isn't impressed), but Chicago-OWU should be every bit the match of Messiah-Oneonta...or better. I'm sure Jay Martin has taken a peek at the pod below them and knows a win over Chicago could the Battling Bishops to the Elite 8 at a minimum. And they already know they can beat Calvin.
Congrats ncac_dad. Your son kept OWU in the game with his play and competitive spirit when they were struggling.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
There have been mentions about how good of a 2nd round battle Messiah versus Oneonta would be (except that Babson isn't impressed), but Chicago-OWU should be every bit the match of Messiah-Oneonta...or better. I'm sure Jay Martin has taken a peek at the pod below them and knows a win over Chicago could the Battling Bishops to the Elite 8 at a minimum. And they already know they can beat Calvin.
Congrats ncac_dad. Your son kept OWU in the game with his play and competitive spirit when they were struggling.
I don't have the depth of knowledge that some of you possess, but I also come in with a very objective view (not that you guys aren't, I'm just saying I'm seeing a lot of these teams for the first time ever.)
Gonna absolutely agree the the Chi-OWU game is appointment viewing. OWU was EXTREMELY impressive with their game plan. Lightning counterstrike, which after watching Chicago today... They might struggle with that style.
Love this tournament!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 08:21:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
There have been mentions about how good of a 2nd round battle Messiah versus Oneonta would be (except that Babson isn't impressed), but Chicago-OWU should be every bit the match of Messiah-Oneonta...or better. I'm sure Jay Martin has taken a peek at the pod below them and knows a win over Chicago could the Battling Bishops to the Elite 8 at a minimum. And they already know they can beat Calvin.
Congrats ncac_dad. Your son kept OWU in the game with his play and competitive spirit when they were struggling.
I don't have the depth of knowledge that some of you possess, but I also come in with a very objective view (not that you guys aren't, I'm just saying I'm seeing a lot of these teams for the first time ever.)
Gonna absolutely agree the the Chi-OWU game is appointment viewing. OWU was EXTREMELY impressive with their game plan. Lightning counterstrike, which after watching Chicago today... They might struggle with that style.
Love this tournament!
You've been a great addition. I think your dynamic right now is what keeps the site going. You are in that sweet spot of your team being right there for a couple of years, you know they are one of the best teams on the country, and you know they've got a shot. And because your team is good and "in the discussion" it makes everything more interesting, like getting a feel for all these other programs. Nothing better. And that's when us crazy posters do the extra stuff like you did today, posting all the links.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 08:43:20 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2019, 08:21:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
There have been mentions about how good of a 2nd round battle Messiah versus Oneonta would be (except that Babson isn't impressed), but Chicago-OWU should be every bit the match of Messiah-Oneonta...or better. I'm sure Jay Martin has taken a peek at the pod below them and knows a win over Chicago could the Battling Bishops to the Elite 8 at a minimum. And they already know they can beat Calvin.
Congrats ncac_dad. Your son kept OWU in the game with his play and competitive spirit when they were struggling.
I don't have the depth of knowledge that some of you possess, but I also come in with a very objective view (not that you guys aren't, I'm just saying I'm seeing a lot of these teams for the first time ever.)
Gonna absolutely agree the the Chi-OWU game is appointment viewing. OWU was EXTREMELY impressive with their game plan. Lightning counterstrike, which after watching Chicago today... They might struggle with that style.
Love this tournament!
You've been a great addition. I think your dynamic right now is what keeps the site going. You are in that sweet spot of your team being right there for a couple of years, you know they are one of the best teams on the country, and you know they've got a shot. And because your team is good and "in the discussion" it makes everything more interesting, like getting a feel for all these other programs. Nothing better. And that's when us crazy posters do the extra stuff like you did today, posting all the links.
Part of what drives me is that Hop went to the finals in 94 (check my handle). I wont go deep into it, now, but that is INSANE for Hopkins in terms of the resources they put into soccer.
I have a very unique D1 vs. D3 life experience, so I love watching these games with a bunch of filters.
St Norbert wins the shootout to win an otherwise scoreless game
Quote from: gbpuckfan on November 15, 2019, 10:53:27 PM
St Norbert wins the shootout to win an otherwise scoreless game
That had already been posted on this page four hours ago.
And St. Norbert didn't win the
game. SNC won the
shootout and thus advanced to the next round. The game ended in a tie, and that is reflected in the record of the Green Knights (https://www.snc.edu/athletics/soccerm/schedule.html), which is now 16-4-3.
The Calvin - St. Norbert game has been moved to a local high school with a turf field and will be played this afternoon at 3:00.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 16, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
The Calvin - St. Norbert game has been moved to a local high school with a turf field and will be played this afternoon at 3:00.
I saw that late last night. Unfortunate. Can you imagine being all excited for your next NCAA game and hearing that you'd be playing at a local high school? Why not play the game at Hope or another college with a good turf field? And what does this say about what they are admitting they allowed to happen yesterday? Seems like an admission those games should not have been played on Calvin's field.
Wonder if there were specific complaints from the other teams? Or Calvin decided the field was unsuitable today but not yesterday? Or Calvin is trying to stay off the field in hopes of hosting next weekend? Or all of the above?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2019, 08:38:44 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 16, 2019, 08:13:20 AM
The Calvin - St. Norbert game has been moved to a local high school with a turf field and will be played this afternoon at 3:00.
I saw that late last night. Unfortunate. Can you imagine being all excited for your next NCAA game and hearing that you'd be playing at a local high school? Why not play the game at Hope or another college with a good turf field? And what does this say about what they are admitting they allowed to happen yesterday? Seems like an admission those games should not have been played on Calvin's field.
Wonder if there were specific complaints from the other teams? Or Calvin decided the field was unsuitable today but not yesterday? Or Calvin is trying to stay off the field in hopes of hosting next weekend? Or all of the above?
Not sure the answer to those questions. However, the local high school they are playing at has better facilities than most colleges. It may not be set up only for soccer like Hope's is, but it is a very nice facility. No one will be disappointed other than the fact that the game has to be played on turf, which is never as good as natural grass for soccer.
why's the chicago pod friday/saturday? i thought these were usually saturday/sunday?
The flying Nardizzi brothers and Framingham State go down 1-0 3 minutes in to Messiah out at Oneonta...Can Framingham regroup? Or does Messiah take it 8-0?
Quote from: swibbles on November 16, 2019, 10:54:40 AM
why's the chicago pod friday/saturday? i thought these were usually saturday/sunday?
I think it's because Hope doesn't play on Sunday.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2019, 11:07:57 AM
The flying Nardizzi brothers and Framingham State go down 1-0 3 minutes in to Messiah out at Oneonta...Can Framingham regroup? Or does Messiah take it 8-0?
Framingham St has hung in now for 20 minutes as the score is still 1-0 Messiah. Framingham defending in a solid block of 6 in a 4-2-3-1. Head Coach Dean Nicholls has been there for years and has done a solid job with what he is working against. Shame they gave up the first goal because it was just an awful giveaway by a defender who held onto the ball to long.
update before post---Ref calls pk? I didnt see it but this PK will turn the tables on his game. Open the floodgates
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2019, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2019, 11:07:57 AM
The flying Nardizzi brothers and Framingham State go down 1-0 3 minutes in to Messiah out at Oneonta...Can Framingham regroup? Or does Messiah take it 8-0?
Framingham St has hung in now for 20 minutes as the score is still 1-0 Messiah. Framingham defending in a solid block of 6 in a 4-2-3-1. Head Coach Dean Nicholls has been there for years and has done a solid job with what he is working against. Shame they gave up the first goal because it was just an awful giveaway by a defender who held onto the ball to long.
update before post---Ref calls pk? I didnt see it but this PK will turn the tables on his game. Open the floodgates
I agree with you, Framingham St was holding their own for the first twenty but down 2-0 they don't have a very good chance of coming back. This game will open up and Messiah will probably win 5-0. Pretty stupid penalty as the defender had the kid squared up right at the top of the 18, no need to foul there. Messiah clearly having the better of the possession but has yet to truly break down the back line, I'm sure that will change as the game continues. Looks cold and sounds windy based on the stream.
Looking around the D3 brackets W&L looks to be the only favorite still in a game...0-0 and NC Wesleyan looks to be battling hard since I tuned in
Falcons get a third goal after a counterattack didn't lead directly to one. The big FR Matt MacDonald in front office a nice entry pass. He has really come along nicely the last few weeks.
Maybe McCarty will be able to rest the starters with a 3-goal lead into halftime. Framingham looked dangerous a couple times but couldn't finish. Otherwise mostly Messiah this half.
Quote from: RollToms on November 15, 2019, 01:27:12 PM
My "bracket buster" (if they can be considered as such) is Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. They haven't given up many goals this year, which tends to bode well for tournament success. On top of that, they are battle-tested with a good non-conference schedule where they ended up coming out on top a majority of the time. They have a LB (I believe he was an all american last year), William Birchard, who has elite ability from dead ball situations both in terms of service from corners and deeper free kicks, as well as shooting situations. Taking advantage of set pieces can make or break teams in the tournament, and they have the ability to do so. I definitely like their odds getting into the sweet 16, which sets up a potential matchup with John Carroll, in which I think they could sneak a W.
Once they hit the November "chill" in the midwest they might look like a different team.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 10:41:18 AMNo one will be disappointed other than the fact that the game has to be played on turf, which is never as good as natural grass for soccer.
Yes, you keep saying that ... and yet your school's own pitch stands in stark testament to the fact that you're wrong.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2019, 04:35:35 PM
One of the nice things about a good turf field like at Hope (despite my own preference for grass) is that Hope for example could have hosted 4 games and then two the next day. Calvin has used Hope's field before ("lost" in PKs to OWU there in 2014) and could have hosted via Hope. Also would be great for spectators and provide some extra juice at the sites. One also has to wonder whether in 25 years there will be any grass fields.
actually a very good idea but probably way to creative and complicated for NCAA to work through.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 16, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 10:41:18 AMNo one will be disappointed other than the fact that the game has to be played on turf, which is never as good as natural grass for soccer.
Yes, you keep saying that ... and yet your school's own pitch stands in stark testament to the fact that you're wrong.
Not wrong. Watch a game on good grass and a game on turf. The ability of the players to control the ball and play a better game on grass is evident. This year the weather caught them out. If you want a playable surface in every season, sure turf is better. But if you want a surface that is better for the game and is only insufficient when weather wreaks havoc then grass is the best option. I'm done talking about playing surface. This should be about the great soccer that is being played.
Kudos to Kenyon, their field is immaculate. W&L and UMW aren't as pretty but the surface seems to be playing true and not impacting the game. W&L seems a bit soft but pretty good condition for this time of year. NC Wesleyan is giving them all they can handle at the moment. Can't really comment on the UMW since their stream is terrible , but still concerned with their ability to score.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 16, 2019, 12:09:55 PM
Kudos to Kenyon, their field is immaculate. W&L and UMW aren't as pretty but the surface seems to be playing true and not impacting the game. W&L seems a bit soft but pretty good condition for this time of year. NC Wesleyan is giving them all they can handle at the moment. Can't really comment on the UMW since their stream is terrible , but still concerned with their ability to score.
yes the stream is perfect for deciding what pair of boots to buy next...
W&L and NCW still 0-0 about 25 left...
Kenyon takes a commanding 4-0 lead with 14 minutes to go
All that work by NC Wesleyan goes out the window as W&L capitalizes on a corner not properly cleared with the ball sent back in and finished nicely by W&L...1-0 W&L 8 min left
Kenyon are a big step up in quality for what PSB are used too in the AMCC. Scoreline is no surprise to me.
Quote from: golordsiamlord on November 16, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Kenyon takes a commanding 4-0 lead with 14 minutes to go
5 - nil
Well... hopefully W&L put the win ugly check down. That was a gring it out game and they did. Need to play better to go deeper.
Quote from: jknezek on November 16, 2019, 01:02:37 PM
Well... hopefully W&L put the win ugly check down. That was a gring it out game and they did. Need to play better to go deeper.
agreed...but they did what good teams do...scored late and gutted out a win when not playing your best stuff or whatever it may be...I will say NC Wesleyan showed well
Quote from: ChrisJS on November 16, 2019, 12:48:07 PM
Kenyon are a big step up in quality for what PSB are used too in the AMCC. Scoreline is no surprise to me.
Early mistakes in the back doomed PSU-B. I commented on the few games PSU plays on grass and how that might impact them. They settled down enough to get to half but the dejection demonstrated by their body language and loss of intensity was clear at the 60 minute mark. They pretty much quit after the third goal.
Other than their loss at Medaille I don't know if PSU trailed in any other game. I wish this program would challenge themselves more with their non conference schedule. The players are clearly technical enough.
Luke Muther was a beast today - just destroyed the left side of PSU's defense all day.
Hopkins woke up in a big way the second half, as expected.
5-0 final from Carlini Field in DC.
Could've been a lot worse.
Semi off-topic, but on the women's side, the first 12 games of the tournament have been shutouts. 13 of 24 teams so far have failed to score. That will change as in the 1:30 pm ET games in progress, there's a 1-1 tie (and also a game in which the lower seed is up 1-0).
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2019, 03:02:18 PM
5-0 final from Carlini Field in DC.
Could've been a lot worse.
Packing it in can only last so long.
Babson and Oneonta tied up. Big home crowd but Babson makes it a game after down 2-0
Pretty electric in DC right now, Connecticut traveled well but find themselves down 1-0 five minutes in thanks to Ben Alexander's 17th goal of the season
As good as advertised in DC, two good teams, kid hit the shot of his life to draw even before half.
Bummer for the Cardinals. From a purely parochial stand point, this works for my Jays, playing on a neutral site tomorrow.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 16, 2019, 06:10:52 PM
Bummer for the Cardinals. From a purely parochial stand point, this works for my Jays, playing on a neutral site tomorrow.
Yeah that was a good match. Unlucky to have it decided on a hand ball off a routine clearance , but give credit to Conn for capitalizing. I think the ref missed a pretty clear handball in the box that could have resulted in the equalizer but wasn't meant to be. Hopkins vs Conn should be a very interesting matchup, best of luck to both sides (but go Hopkins)
Kenyon-Rochester tomorrow, aka the PaulNewman Bowl (kind of). Will definitely tune in for that.
Gutsy, gutsy performance by OWU. Go beat Hope at Hope and then take out a superb Chicago squad. OWU had stretches where they could not get or hold the ball. Chicago is fast and constantly got to balls or turned OWU over quickly. Gomez often looked like the only OWU player who could hold the ball and make a play. Tremendous game from Gomez. Played his heart out. The OWU backline was very solid as well. I feel like I've seen Chicago get a lead and then try to milk the game instead of pushing for a couple more goals. They allowed OWU to hang around and OWU made them pay. Interesting to watch the OWU coaches too. Every time they scored there was no celebration and Martin immediately was huddling with I assume his top assistant planning strategy. Wow. Huge win for the Battling Bishops and now they will want more....one of the few teams outside of Tufts that knows how to play Calvin if that happens.
Gomez was a stud. Chicago had no answer for him on the counter and he torched them all night. I don't know much about Luther or Superior but I think OWU has a good shot of making it back to the elite 8 for the first time in 5 years.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 12:07:32 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 16, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 10:41:18 AMNo one will be disappointed other than the fact that the game has to be played on turf, which is never as good as natural grass for soccer.
Yes, you keep saying that ... and yet your school's own pitch stands in stark testament to the fact that you're wrong.
Not wrong.
Yes, wrong. Zuidema Field was a mess yesterday. That proves that your "never as good as natural grass for soccer" assertion is mistaken. Heck, your own alma mater disagrees with you, which is why it moved today's game to Grand Rapids Christian's turf pitch.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 12:07:32 PMWatch a game on good grass and a game on turf. The ability of the players to control the ball and play a better game on grass is evident.
Not necessarily. On a state-of-the-art surface such as Field Turf, which practically duplicates grass conditions right down to the friction rate of grass blades, there is arguably no difference at all in terms of high-end playability and aesthetics. The difference lies in the manageability and resistance to adverse conditions of Field Turf.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 12:07:32 PMThis year the weather caught them out.
And that happens more often than you think -- in Grand Rapids and in other northern towns susceptible to early frosts and big snowfalls, as well as anyplace that's plagued with heavy rains over a protracted period during the season.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 16, 2019, 12:07:32 PMIf you want a playable surface in every season, sure turf is better. But if you want a surface that is better for the game and is only insufficient when weather wreaks havoc then grass is the best option.
Argue aesthetics all you like (just how familiar are you with Field Turf, anyway?). But college soccer is a sport played in adverse seasonal conditions; for much of the country, in fact, those adverse conditions loom large at the end of the season when it's the most crucial to have good field conditions. And that makes a
big difference in terms of what is the "best option". Calvin was proof positive of that this weekend. A grass pitch is fragile; even a top-notch grounds crew can't save a pitch that's been worked over something fierce by Mother Nature (which, in Grand Rapids, happens pretty regularly at this time of year; GR's average first snowfall is annually right around the time of the MIAA tournament, with the first frost typically several days before that. And, since GR is in lake-effect snow country, a first snowfall can often be a
big snowfall.)
The North Side of Chicago was hit with an unseasonably heavy snowstorm earlier this week, and a deep freeze with wind chills below zero followed right on the heels of it. NPU's baseball team spent all of Wednesday afternoon clearing Hedstrand Field of snow. The first thing that I did when I arrived at the Holmgren Athletic Complex two hours before the first game at NPU today was to walk out onto the pitch and get a feel for the condition of the Field Turf surface. As I expected, it was immaculate -- no spongy spots, no hard spots, perfectly dry, continuously identical feel from one endline to the other, felt to the feet just the way that it did at the end of August during the scrimmages. And it played perfectly today, just as it will tomorrow.
The winner today that impressed me was UW-Superior. This makes two seasons in a row in which the Yellowjackets have won their first-round match in the tourney. For a school that comes out of a red-headed-stepchild league that typically earns no respect in any sport, the UMAC, that's an accomplishment worth noting.
Kudos as well to Salve Regina for forcing a scoreless draw with Rowan, although the Profs ended up advancing on PKs. Didn't see that coming.
Good showing by GL teams so far. Missed my prediction on JCU but I did say they can completely outplay opponents and not finish - 29 shots, 16 on goal - 2 goals. Hanover hung in against UR - whatever chances they created in the 18 were stuffed by the defenders. UR missed two grade A chances - wide open header on a corner about 5-10 minutes into the second half and a breakaway that was courageously saved by the Hanover keeper - but the UR forward took an extra dribble instead of taking the shot. He paid the price a bit . . . Nice aerial somersault after colliding with the GK.
Center got a golaso - worth seeing - 22-25 yards out laser into upper 90. K'Zoo had their chances - 90 seconds left - K'Zoo player has open look from 12-15 yards out - crushes the crossbar.
Kenyon came out to play from the first whistle. They forced two turnovers early and got up 2-0. As the game wore on PSU-B lost hope and the third goal shattered what small chance they had to get back in it.
Both games at Kenyon featured a LOT of slipping and sloppy footing - it won't be better today. UR's starting right back went down twice with leg cramps or strained muscles - I'd bet I doesn't play today. The two replacements UR used were not as effective. And UR's backs had several dicey moments - slipping and miss-hitting the ball. Kenyon May be one of the hottest teams in the tournament right now.
The strong east-to-west wind is gone today - temps in low 40's - brilliant sunshine. Defending the eastern goal a challenge staring directly into the sun. Kenyon wins this 2-0 at a minimum - but noting how easy it will be for defenders to slip and make a mistake. Knowing that - woe be the team that keeps the ball in the middle and doesn't attack down the flanks. Kenyon did that so well yesterday.
Didn't see if there were any RC yesterday but I will boldly predict one in the JCU-Centre game today. Centre out-fouled K'Zoo 22-11, JCU, with their 10 fouls yesterday reached 300 fouls committed for the year. If JCU can put the ball in the net they should win 2-0. Their defense held W&J to zero shots on goal yesterday and they will keep Centre to very few chances. It's a matter of offensive effectiveness as to how many they score today.
Congrats to Swarthmore on advancing. Can't say that I enjoyed the antics of their GK during PKs. Talking sh*t to every Noke PK taker as they approached and then taunting them after his two saves. Be better than that.
Makes me want to root for the Captains today.
Good luck to the remaining schools!
Shout out to the Trinity broadcast crew. I didn't watch much of the two games at Trinity after the two CMS PKs, but the video is always high quality, they had two excellent broadcasters who are very knowledgeable, they had replays, and perhaps most impressively had interviews with players from all the teams that were shown at half-time. There are some other very good productions around the country but Trinity is definitely in the very top tier.
To continue with a fan's fantasy about how the tourney could work differently. Instead of 16 sites, choose 8 sites with two pods each. The two pods could be the ones that go together in the draw (upper or lower portion of a quadrant) or there could be mixing of pods or a combination of both as needed to meet NCAA and travel needs. All teams would know at the start of the year where the various sites for that year are so there would be no jockeying or arguing about who got "home field." Of course the sites could be chosen more like they are now with the "deserving" angle accounted for.
As a fan I would vote for non-football lines versus football lines as more important than grass versus turf, but there could always be exceptions based on need.
Some sites that immediately come to mind that could be used even if the "host school" doesn't make the tournament would be Trinity, Roanoke or Lynchburg, Hope, Montclair's facility, Oneonta, whatever the best site/field there is in New England, Carnegie Mellon, maybe F&M or Messiah, etc, etc.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2019, 10:58:24 AM
To continue with a fan's fantasy about how the tourney could work differently. Instead of 16 sites, choose 8 sites with two pods each. The two pods could be the ones that go together in the draw (upper or lower portion of a quadrant) or there could be mixing of pods or a combination of both as needed to meet NCAA and travel needs. All teams would know at the start of the year where the various sites for that year are so there would be no jockeying or arguing about who got "home field." Of course the sites could be chosen more like they are now with the "deserving" angle accounted for.
As a fan I would vote for non-football lines versus football lines as more important than grass versus turf, but there could always be exceptions based on need.
Some sites that immediately come to mind that could be used even if the "host school" doesn't make the tournament would be Trinity, Roanoke or Lynchburg, Hope, Montclair's facility, Oneonta, whatever the best site/field there is in New England, Carnegie Mellon, maybe F&M or Messiah, etc, etc.
Oneonta has a great facility. First time here. Soccer field is turf ...good turf for this time of year games. Warm athletic center just steps from the field. Nice stands..looks to be a good perch for video but I haven't watched the video stream . Nice fan base supporting the team. Should be a nice game today win or lose for both teams
Anyone else having issues streaming Mary Wash games?
Gettysburg up 2-0 on W&L in the first half. Kinda surprising as W&L seems to be having the better of the run of play. Goal #1 was an own-goal.
Oneonta gets one back...2-1 Messiah 5 min till halftime...great D3 2nd rd game
Gettysburg . . . for me one of the surprises of the tournament by winning 5-0 yesterday against Oglethorpe and now up 2-0 on W&L.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 17, 2019, 01:40:45 PM
Oneonta gets one back...2-1 Messiah 5 min till halftime...great D3 2nd rd game
This is, simply put, a Final Four level game being played in Oneonta right now. Drop whatever else you’re watching, and come watch this one when the second half kicks off around 2:05. Both teams are very highly skilled. Oneonta has an obvious size advantage, while Messiah is a bit more athletic overall. Both teams have been extremely dangerous. The score could easily be 3-2 or even tied at 3: I call this an even game, and I have the feeling more scores are coming. Great soccer to watch!
Oneonta’s Witman Hernandez, who is second in the nation in goals, scored the lone Oneonta tally in a scramble close in, and has been the most dangerous man on the field most of the afternoon. He reminds me of the great Matt Bills, Messiah’s target early this century: you mess with him only at your own peril. I hope he doesn’t score another, but he’s certainly capable of it and so are several of his teammates. Messiah’s keeper has played brilliantly and is so far the difference in this game, while his teammates have gotten him a brace before Oneonta got one back.
Unfortunately the camera has failed to show Messiah’s attacking third several times, so we entirely missed the second goal and what was apparently an injury to conference ROY Levefre, who disappeared from the agame fairly early on some sort of injury timeout. Anyone at the game who can report the details?
Kenyon ties it up 1- 1 against Rochester ... on a free kick with 16 left. Pressuring the last 10 minutes....
Kenyon, who has been knocking on the door seemingly ever since Rochester took the lead in the first half, finally breaks through to equalize. Drilled free kick went through the wall, goalie didn't seem to have much of a chance. 1-1 with about 15 left in Gambier. Momentum would appear to be with the Lords, but they know of the threat on the counter.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 16, 2019, 07:11:15 PM
Gutsy, gutsy performance by OWU. Go beat Hope at Hope and then take out a superb Chicago squad. OWU had stretches where they could not get or hold the ball. Chicago is fast and constantly got to balls or turned OWU over quickly. Gomez often looked like the only OWU player who could hold the ball and make a play. Tremendous game from Gomez. Played his heart out. The OWU backline was very solid as well. I feel like I've seen Chicago get a lead and then try to milk the game instead of pushing for a couple more goals. They allowed OWU to hang around and OWU made them pay. Interesting to watch the OWU coaches too. Every time they scored there was no celebration and Martin immediately was huddling with I assume his top assistant planning strategy. Wow. Huge win for the Battling Bishops and now they will want more....one of the few teams outside of Tufts that knows how to play Calvin if that happens.
OWU has played well these first two tournament games. I was a little surprised at the initial strategy against Chicago, however, adjustments were made in the 2nd half. The adjustments worked. Yes, Hector went into beast mode. OWU finally played a consistent back line for the first time all season in both matches. It made a difference.
Agree that they know how to play Calvin tough. Appreciate the recognition from a Kenyon guy :)!
I know for sure ... OWU wants more!!
Tufts CB Paoletta not in the lineup today. The veteran Tanner Jameson takes his place. Will he start at CB?
Last time Tufts saw such a big opposing GK was against St.Joe's a couple years ago.
Kenyon wins it in the first OT on a PK. Looked away so didn't see the call but the penalty was emphatic. Admirable effort by Rochester, who led for a large part of the game, but I think Kenyon was just a bit better.
Messiah wins, 4-1, after dominating play n the second half. My sense is, Oneonta just ran out of gas early on, as the Falcons won more than their share of the 50-50 balls and were far more dangerous than Oneonta most of the way. Despite my rooting interest, it was a disappointing second half after a magnificent first half of top notch soccer.
Unfortunately this could prove to be a Pyrrhic victory. At least four Messiah starters went off injured, including SO Luke Groothoff, whole was severely tripped by the keeper on his way to a certain goal that became a PK the Falcons earned for the final goal. The only FR names AA last fall, Groothoff is an irreplaceable piece of the Falcon juggernaut, on both ends. fOY Lefever and starting DM Reid Ruark (who scored the third goal on a corner), also went down, and a fourth player whom I never identified b/c the camera never showed him.
Falcon fans can only hope that LG didn't reinjure his kneecap and will return hale and healthy next week—likewise the other men, or their season might end as it did last fall, with irreplaceable starters gone at the worst possible moment.
Otherwise, the Falcons showed themselves to be one of the top four teams in the nation, IMO. They are playing tremendously well, peaking at just the right time to take on Amherst or anyone else—provides they are full strength.
The last 15 minutes were very chippy. Should have been more cards shown, perhaps even a red. The official had it mostly under control, but I suppose the Oneonta players had so reasons to worry about being carded. Nothing you can do about it, but the Falcon season might have ended here this afternoon.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2019, 03:06:52 PM
Kenyon wins it in the first OT on a PK. Looked away so didn't see the call but the penalty was emphatic. Admirable effort by Rochester, who led for a large part of the game, but I think Kenyon was just a bit better.
Rochester hand ball in the box.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 17, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
Gettysburg . . . for me one of the surprises of the tournament by winning 5-0 yesterday against Oglethorpe and now up 2-0 on W&L.
W&L beats Getty 3-2. Kudos to the Generals, they showed a ton of grit after being down 2-0 in the first half and giving up an own goal.
Don't know why I do this to myself!
Good showing for the NCAC. Gomez yesterday and little Scotty Upton today as Upton was all over the field. Penas had some good moments too, as did Carson and Gaese. Rochester is tough as nails, extremely well-coached and very hard to break down. And Kenyon surviving their usual errors, with a bad unforced error to give up a throw that resulted in UR goal and then even in OT giving up two or three free kicks and a couple of corners before Muther rampaged down the right side into the box. I didn't see what happened clearly as I thought Kenyon had just earned a corner.
Hopkins threatening ... great save by Conn's Marcucci... 20 minutes in. 0-0. Pretty open game with Hopkins most of the control.
WPI 1-0 up on Tufts...first half...WPI will be content to pack it in but Tufts will come at the Engineers in waves...long way to go yet.
^ As I say this I see WPI more than capable of creating chances on the counter.
WPI did everything they needed to do and more in the 1st Half. They lead 1-0 and have not given up to many dangerous chances. Tufts again is possessing well but not progressing FAST enough. They must keep moving the ball on the ground but IMO they must move and go faster. Cb Jameson an CB Raphael both with 2 bad giveaways that could have been problematic. WPI GK is a big boy but looks real slow. Get him down....will 2nd Half be more of the same? OR does Tufts just dominate 2nd Half with wave after wave of chances? Honestly, WPI looks very comfortable right now.
Hopkins and Conn game has evened up in last 15 minutes.... Butera has rocket shot saved in last four minutes... and half ended 0-0.
Hoping that rudy can provide a report in the Falcon injured list. His son played a terrific game today, repeatedly shutting down much bigger players and sometimes making them look silly by taking the ball from their feet or jumping in front if passes. As I said, Oneonta was much bigger but Messiah was more athletic.
After Ruark went out with what looked like an ankle injury, his son moved from LB to DMF and ran the show like he's done it his whole life.
Quote from: FelixCloudy on November 17, 2019, 03:11:57 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 17, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
Gettysburg . . . for me one of the surprises of the tournament by winning 5-0 yesterday against Oglethorpe and now up 2-0 on W&L.
W&L beats Getty 3-2. Kudos to the Generals, they showed a ton of grit after being down 2-0 in the first half and giving up an own goal.
Really proud of the Generals. That's a young team but they ground out a tough win yesterday and have to be pleased with the fight back today. Second time all season they gave up more than one goal, both to Centennial teams.
Quote from: BendIt007 on November 17, 2019, 03:52:04 PM
Hopkins and Conn game has evened up in last 15 minutes.... Butera has rocket shot saved in last four minutes... and half ended 0-0.
CC def looked the better team in 2nd half. More chances created and pressed Hopkins effectively. Hopkins were struggling to play out from the back and create any opportunity
Camels ... great goal with 2 minutes left!!! 1-0...
Huge win for the Camels! And well earned as controlled most of game after the first 30 minutes.
Tufts wins 2-1 on a goal with 30 seconds left. Conn wins means the path to final four most likely runs through medford again.
Tufts Senior CB Tanner Jameson wins it with a beauty of a header off a corner with 30 seconds left. WPI gave everything they had and deserve tons of credit. Both teams worked hard but the veteran who was starting in place of Paoletta and was shaky at best with the ball at his feet has always been good in the air and now shows he can lead on the field not just off of it. great goal...I thought Aroh played well today and was very active. Rojas also had a good game. WPI read the scout on Tasker's lack of a left foot as their defender took 2-3 steps back and sat on his right foot. Tasker should of had 2 goals with his left foot. The back 4 looked shaky at times with the ball but defended well. Looks like Shapiro went to a 3-5-2 when his starters came back on the field in the 80th minute. WPI's Conroy? had a fantastic game as WPI has 2-3 weapons up top and in midfield. great D3 game in the falling snow.
I forgot how good RPI TV is. As one would expect. Great video quality.
Midd at RPI heading to PK's 0-0...very predictable result with these two teams. Winner gets to play Messiah. Now who for Midd will take the 5?
my guess--Goulart, Barry, Potter, Robinson, McFarlane..maybe Oudet
F&M great video quality and announcers...0-0 v MSU heading to PK's as well...winner gets Kenyon I believe
Spot on Mr Right. I thought Conroe was awesome today for WPI and Kindermann had to make two big saves against the run of play. Tufts was pretty dominate in the second half missing two breakaways. But this team has a never say die attitude and has orchestrated multiple comebacks this season, something they haven't had to do in the past.
With the win the senior class moves to 15-1 in the NCAA tournament. Technically 13-1-2 but I think counting a pk win in the NCAAs a tie is stupid. If one teams crying and they other is celebrating that's not a tie.
Someone mentioned how good Midd has been against penalties this season. Let's see if it holds up when it counts.
F&M announcers superb. Video good but a better angle would be even better. Great day of games.
Aside from my own surprise at the outcome given Middlebury's history on penalties, never would have guessed that RPI has never been past the first weekend.
MSU with some clinical PK's to advance
And the F&M announcers pure class after even with MSU antics.
CNU v Swat heading to PK's...ANOTHER 0-0 game TODAY...not a good look
Swat-Newport had 46 fouls (23 a piece). Swat with 4-5 YCs. Swat in PKs. Swat only Centennial standing.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2019, 05:42:22 PM
And the F&M announcers pure class after even with MSU antics.
I did not see the antics but yea they were solid
Props to CC for a solid win. Took Hop out of their style of play.
I have to say... Maybe don't complain about EVERY foul call? Geez louise, guys.
Gustavus with a late equalizer against NPU to send the game to OT.
Well I guess Mr. Zinner wins this round...Swat going through on PKs for the second straight day, setting up a sectional contest against Conn. They're the last CC team standing, as F&M, Getty, and Hopkins go out as well. Pretty unbelievable to me that Swat's season will go on longer than anyone else in the conference. Disappointing day for the conference and the Mid-Atlantic as a whole, but props to Swat for the resiliency.
Got to watch Marcucci in goal for Conn for the first time today. Damn, that kid is special. The move where he plucks the opposition's corners out of the sky and immediately releases his wingers on the counter is sooo effective. Made an incredible save early in the first half that really swung the momentum.
North Park-Gustavus game is very chippy as Gustavus got the late equalizer. Hard to say what happened but an NP player was down on the ground holding his head(?) as Gustavus sent a cross in. North Park arguing everything with the referee. Reminds me of a few years ago when North Park was the beneficiary of many whistles. Maybe the karma whistle has made it back to North Park.
That Luther pitch looks pretty beat up. Maybe there is one argument for that. All the jerseys and short are mud-stained and there may be some purists who feel that is more "authentic". I recall a great tilt between St Olaf and someone who was favored and got by St Olaf with several inches of snow on the pitch.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 17, 2019, 06:14:10 PM
Well I guess Mr. Zinner wins this round...Swat going through on PKs for the second straight day, setting up a sectional contest against Conn. They're the last CC team standing, as F&M, Getty, and Hopkins go out as well. Pretty unbelievable to me that Swat's season will go on longer than anyone else in the conference. Disappointing day for the conference and the Mid-Atlantic as a whole, but props to Swat for the resiliency.
Got to watch Marcucci in goal for Conn for the first time today. Damn, that kid is special. The move where he plucks the opposition's corners out of the sky and immediately releases his wingers on the counter is sooo effective. Made an incredible save early in the first half that really swung the momentum.
I was impressed with Conn....the Camels are not just Marcucci although he definitely is everything advertised. I'd give them a fighting chance versus Tufts if they get the Jumbos although I do like W&L too.
Liked "a minute left before PKs decide this bad boy" -- Luther announcer (Darren Swenson)
North Park with a few very good chances in the 2 overtimes. Gustavus surviving by the skin of their teeth. Game is going to PKs.
Quote from: Falconer on November 17, 2019, 04:00:12 PM
Hoping that rudy can provide a report in the Falcon injured list. His son played a terrific game today, repeatedly shutting down much bigger players and sometimes making them look silly by taking the ball from their feet or jumping in front if passes. As I said, Oneonta was much bigger but Messiah was more athletic.
After Ruark went out with what looked like an ankle injury, his son moved from LB to DMF and ran the show like he's done it his whole life.
That was his position in high school. He was very good at it.
NP advances 5-4. Weak penalty kick by the final Gustavus player. A bit surprising considering the finishing ability he possesses.
Dear lord. That last GA pk was simply awful. Like, one of the worst I've ever seen awful. Congrats to NP on the win.
Quote from: D3Grad on November 17, 2019, 06:37:43 PM
North Park with a few very good chances in the 2 overtimes. Gustavus surviving by the skin of their teeth. Game is going to PKs.
Brutal ending for Gustavus but NPU was the better team on the day. No saves on any kicks round 1-4 and then the Gustavus shooter (shooting second in the fifth round) put it right down the middle which the GK saved. A bit confounding he would go there given the 'keepers were getting nowhere near the kicks into the corner.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2019, 05:42:22 PM
And the F&M announcers pure class after even with MSU antics.
Easy to root against, aren't they? IIRC, during the first weekend of last year's tournament, the mic was positioned in a location where it picked up a lot of the chatter among the MSU supporters. It was like an episode of Jersey Shore.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2019, 06:49:39 PM
Quote from: D3Grad on November 17, 2019, 06:37:43 PM
North Park with a few very good chances in the 2 overtimes. Gustavus surviving by the skin of their teeth. Game is going to PKs.
Brutal ending for Gustavus but NPU was the better team on the day. No saves on any kicks round 1-4 and then the Gustavus shooter (shooting second in the fifth round) put it right down the middle which the GK saved. A bit confounding he would go there given the 'keepers were getting nowhere near the kicks into the corner.
I agree -- Gustavus battled North Park tooth and nail and scored the equalizer at the 88:00 mark to send it to OT. It came down to the final PK, which the NP keeper blocked with his feet rather than his hands.
sectional hosts -
seems easy to assume Amherst will host Rowan, RPI and Messiah.
Kenyon would probably host Montclair State, C-M-S and Centre; MSU and CMS both have to fly anyway.
Conn, Swat, Tufts, W&L - actually gonna predict Swarthmore to host so they don't have to put W&L on a plane.
Luther to Calvin comes in just under 500 miles, but didn't we just see their field turn into mud? North Park should host them and OWU.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 17, 2019, 06:53:39 PM
Easy to root against, aren't they? IIRC, during the first weekend of last year's tournament, the mic was positioned in a location where it picked up a lot of the chatter among the MSU supporters. It was like an episode of Jersey Shore.
I'm pretty sure PaulNewman made a comment last year that watching MSU was like a Jersey Shore episode where a soccer game broke out.
Hey, fair enough on knocking out F&M, but I still remember them being 4-0 down to Tufts inside 35 minutes in last year's Elite 8. One of the worst defensive displays I've ever seen, and on a huge stage. Just looked like a team with absolutely no composure. Skill will get you far but you have to be able to keep your heads in these situations. They'll have to be better prepared for the Lords.
I just left the North Park vs Gustavus game. Was disappointed at the amount of embellishment and whining by NP. They attempted a dive in the box and the initial call of a foul and PK was changed after the AR explained to center official. North Park is such a good team. They don't need to flop.
Susan,
I watched the game online and it was clear that it wasn't a flop. He simply tripped over his own feet. The center got the call wrong, the AR got it right and in the end - the right call was made. Your observation on it being a "flop" was incorrect.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2019, 07:06:29 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 17, 2019, 06:53:39 PM
Easy to root against, aren't they? IIRC, during the first weekend of last year's tournament, the mic was positioned in a location where it picked up a lot of the chatter among the MSU supporters. It was like an episode of Jersey Shore.
I'm pretty sure PaulNewman made a comment last year that watching MSU was like a Jersey Shore episode where a soccer game broke out.
Hey, fair enough on knocking out F&M, but I still remember them being 4-0 down to Tufts inside 35 minutes in last year's Elite 8. One of the worst defensive displays I've ever seen, and on a huge stage. Just looked like a team with absolutely no composure. Skill will get you far but you have to be able to keep your heads in these situations. They'll have to be better prepared for the Lords.
And, two years ago Kirby Robbins and his friends blew MSU out in Grantham, and then they got blown out by CNU in the tournament. As you say, Biooter, defense ain't necessarily their forte. However, they have some athletes, they can be physical (sometimes too much so, to their detriment), and they usually have some guys who can shoot. If they bring their A-game, you'd better bring yours, or you're going home.
Given how often Messiah has played them in recent years, quite possibly I have seen them play more than anyone else here except the NJAC people. I don't have much experience with their fan base, since only a few usually come to Grantham, but I have considerable experience with NJAC fans in general. Obviously there are many individual exceptions, but a lot of those fans love to see the ugly game, replete with muggings and other stuff better suited to hockey, as has been noted. Keep that $&@+ in Jersey, if you ask me. The conference as a a whole has a certain reputation, well earned IMO—too bad, honestly, since it also produces some really good teams, including the RU-C team that gave a great Falcon team all they could handle a few years ago. Wish they would just play futbol.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 17, 2019, 08:00:21 PM
Susan,
I watched the game online and it was clear that it wasn't a flop. He simply tripped over his own feet. The center got the call wrong, the AR got it right and in the end - the right call was made. Your observation on it being a "flop" was incorrect.
I agree that it was not a flop. He just overran and fell. The ref conferred with the linesman, and they got the call right. The complaining might have been over the subsequent possession, which went to the Gustavus GK.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 17, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 17, 2019, 04:00:12 PM
Hoping that rudy can provide a report in the Falcon injured list. His son played a terrific game today, repeatedly shutting down much bigger players and sometimes making them look silly by taking the ball from their feet or jumping in front if passes. As I said, Oneonta was much bigger but Messiah was more athletic.
After Ruark went out with what looked like an ankle injury, his son moved from LB to DMF and ran the show like he's done it his whole life.
That was his position in high school. He was very good at it.
As far as I know right now nobody has injuries keeping them from playing next week. But not 100% sure. I know Ben came back.in to play. Reid did not. They probably have to evaluate after a day or two. They were pretty quick to get on the bus and head home. Look forward to a game in MA next week!!
Quote from: Falconer on November 17, 2019, 08:04:25 PM
And, two years ago Kirby Robbins and his friends blew MSU out in Grantham, and then they got blown out by CNU in the tournament. As you say, Biooter, defense ain't necessarily their forte. However, they have some athletes, they can be physical (sometimes too much so, to their detriment), and they usually have some guys who can shoot. If they bring their A-game, you'd better bring yours, or you're going home.
Given how often Messiah has played them in recent years, quite possibly I have seen them play more than anyone else here except the NJAC people. I don't have much experience with their fan base, since only a few usually come to Grantham, but I have considerable experience with NJAC fans in general. Obviously there are many individual exceptions, but a lot of those fans love to see the ugly game, replete with muggings and other stuff better suited to hockey, as has been noted. Keep that $&@+ in Jersey, if you ask me. The conference as a a whole has a certain reputation, well earned IMO—too bad, honestly, since it also produces some really good teams, including the RU-C team that gave a great Falcon team all they could handle a few years ago. Wish they would just play futbol.
Oh yeah, they definitely can cause problems on their day, and if you catch them on a good day there aren't many teams that can handle that. But with the importance of defense at this point in the season, you have to be able to stay disciplined in the big moments, and that means being ready from the first whistle. It's a new year, for sure, and so maybe I shouldn't keep harping on that showing last year — I think seeing it in-person probably played a role — but I was just struck at seemingly how unprepared they were for that game: they came out in a 3-5-2 which Tufts exploited masterfully, didn't wake up until 20 minutes in, and by that point they were already 3-0 down.
Now watch them go through to the Final 4!
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 17, 2019, 07:04:33 PM
sectional hosts -
seems easy to assume Amherst will host Rowan, RPI and Messiah.
Kenyon would probably host Montclair State, C-M-S and Centre; MSU and CMS both have to fly anyway.
Conn, Swat, Tufts, W&L - actually gonna predict Swarthmore to host so they don't have to put W&L on a plane.
Luther to Calvin comes in just under 500 miles, but didn't we just see their field turn into mud? North Park should host them and OWU.
4 for 4 on my picks, how bout that haha
That is ridiculous. The lowest seed in the pod shouldn't get to host just to avoid 1 flight. Home field advantage should be earned not given based on something as random as location.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 17, 2019, 09:00:04 PM
That is ridiculous. The lowest seed in the pod shouldn't get to host just to avoid 1 flight. Home field advantage should be earned not given based on something as random as location.
We all agree. If you've got the money to cough up to fix it go ahead and volunteer. Been this way for a long time, not going to change.
Quote from: jknezek on November 17, 2019, 10:09:54 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 17, 2019, 09:00:04 PM
That is ridiculous. The lowest seed in the pod shouldn't get to host just to avoid 1 flight. Home field advantage should be earned not given based on something as random as location.
We all agree. If you've got the money to cough up to fix it go ahead and volunteer. Been this way for a long time, not going to change.
Sometimes you benefit, sometimes you don't. 2016. Will never know if that made just enough of a difference. Tufts was the next to lowest seed in the pod.
Its absolutely ridiculous. Not only is the lowest seed remaining in the pod getting to host, they also are getting the early game and therefore more rest and the opportunity to scout the full second game. Would love to hear the explanations around these decisions? You can be sure the Jumbos will show up in PA with a huge chip on their shoulder ready to go.
PN, 2016 is different in that 3 teams would have had to fly to TX. This year, its one team taking a 1 hour flight to Boston...
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 17, 2019, 10:14:33 PM
Its absolutely ridiculous. Not only is the lowest seed remaining in the pod getting to host, they also are getting the early game and therefore more rest and the opportunity to scout the full second game. Would love to hear the explanations around these decisions? You can be sure the Jumbos will show up in PA with a huge chip on their shoulder ready to go.
PN, 2016 is different in that 3 teams would have had to fly to TX. This year, its one team taking a 1 hour flight to Boston...
Where do you draw the line? One flight would be OK but not two or three? Kenyon was the other choice and their field had been eaten by some fungus. "Earning" or "deserving" is OK but only up to some line?
But the idea of Tufts with a chip on its shoulder is a bit much.
Quote from: RollToms on November 13, 2019, 01:37:39 PM
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Wow. What a weekend of soccer. Hate to be that guy that quotes his own correct prediction, but I'm going to be that guy for a sec because I want to make a point. I think many just assumed that Chicago would be a contender, because, well it's Chicago. Let this be a reminder that just because a team has legacy, does not mean that that legacy will shine through each year. I think there are some schools that people automatically assume will contend, and they largely have earned the right to have that assumption made, but remember that each year it's a new team, and that teams should be judged on what they did during the year (as is protocol for selection committee) not what they have done in years prior. Some people may not like this comment, but I think many know it's true whether or not they like it.
BTW, take nothing away from the performance of OWU and one of the best coaches in college soccer, Jay Martin. OWU looks hungry.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2019, 10:22:03 PM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 17, 2019, 10:14:33 PM
Its absolutely ridiculous. Not only is the lowest seed remaining in the pod getting to host, they also are getting the early game and therefore more rest and the opportunity to scout the full second game. Would love to hear the explanations around these decisions? You can be sure the Jumbos will show up in PA with a huge chip on their shoulder ready to go.
PN, 2016 is different in that 3 teams would have had to fly to TX. This year, its one team taking a 1 hour flight to Boston...
Where do you draw the line? One flight would be OK but not two or three? Kenyon was the other choice and their field had been eaten by some fungus. "Earning" or "deserving" is OK but only up to some line?
But the idea of Tufts with a chip on its shoulder is a bit much.
As indicated, there has to be a line and those who watch the budgets in DIII are not going to allow flights for the heck of it. There is a 500 mile rule for a reason. If they started letting one, two, three slide through then everyone gets those in all sports and the next thing we know there is another budget shortfall in DIII. The last time that happened, brackets got tightened severely - too severely.
DIII isn't alone on this, but it is the largest and thus is happens with a lot of regularity. It might not but what some people like, but it's the reality of the tournaments.
As for scouting, every team gets a chance to scout at the pods. Those playing in the second game will be sitting there scouting the first game as well.
BTW - from what I can see, that bracket was set-up for JHU to host. The Blue Jays losing is what caused this to go sideways. Tufts and W&L weren't going to host this upcoming weekend anyway - maybe W&L had Catholic gotten through. So, we are upset because ...
Not upset, just feel that if you earn the right to host and you have the facility to host then you should be able to host. I agree had the Blue Jays won the pod would be at Hopkins and from a travel and ranking standpoint that makes sense. With Conn winning it seemed logical Tufts would host given their ranking and location as it involved only flying one team (which probably is not much more expensive than taking a team on a 6 hour bus ride). Anyway, its water under the dam now. On to the round of 16 where there are some great matchups.
Just to clarify...and then moving ahead.
I DO think Tufts should be hosting. A very good facility and atmosphere for hosting as well. I was just saying that the hosting logistics and unforeseen consequences have benefited Tufts directly in the past, so let's at least acknowledge that in a discussion about how utterly ridiculous something is. As Shapiro says, the margins get smaller and smaller as you progress in the tournament, so if we're going to talk about advantages that should be earned then we at least should mention advantages that aren't "earned." Other than myself who had a vested interest, I can't think of another poster commenting on or acknowledging what fell in Tufts' lap in 2016, and in addition to the items already mentioned that year (Trinity too far away and a field problem elsewhere was the fantastical inability of Haverford to close out a 9-man UMass-Boston team...or was it 8?). Anyway, merit is merit and logistics are logistics. Clearly the NCAA uses a hybrid approach. And Tufts has thrived in these situations before....beating Messiah, Montclair and Rowan (all favored at the time) on the road.
The other thing unless this is a mistake....Amherst is the only "top seed" playing the early game. The other top seeds are currently scheduled for the later game.
On another topic, Conn College has sort of flown under the radar. The Camels have a real chance to reach the Final Four which would be enormous for that program and that school. in addition to their obvious defensive stinginess anchored by Marcucci, I was surprised at Conn's ability to sustain real offensive pressure on an excellent JHU squad (at least in the 2nd half from what I saw).
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
Just to clarify...and then moving ahead.
I DO think Tufts should be hosting. A very good facility and atmosphere for hosting as well. I was just saying that the hosting logistics and unforeseen consequences have benefited Tufts directly in the past, so let's at least acknowledge that in a discussion about how utterly ridiculous something is. As Shapiro says, the margins get smaller and smaller as you progress in the tournament, so if we're going to talk about advantages that should be earned then we at least should mention advantages that aren't "earned." Other than myself who had a vested interest, I can't think of another poster commenting on or acknowledging what fell in Tufts' lap in 2016, and in addition to the items already mentioned that year (Trinity too far away and a field problem elsewhere was the fantastical inability of Haverford to close out a 9-man UMass-Boston team...or was it 8?). Anyway, merit is merit and logistics are logistics. Clearly the NCAA uses a hybrid approach. And Tufts has thrived in these situations before....beating Messiah, Montclair and Rowan (all favored at the time) on the road.
The other thing unless this is a mistake....Amherst is the only "top seed" playing the early game. The other top seeds are currently scheduled for the later game.
On another topic, Conn College has sort of flown under the radar. The Camels have a real chance to reach the Final Four which would be enormous for that program and that school. in addition to their obvious defensive stinginess anchored by Marcucci, I was surprised at Conn's ability to sustain real offensive pressure on an excellent JHU squad (at least in the 2nd half from what I saw).
I hate to jinx Kenyon Paul but right now they have a pretty favorable shot at the final 4. No tufts, Messiah, Amherst or Calvin to play through and they appear to be peaking. Could be the year.
Quote from: RollToms on November 17, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: RollToms on November 13, 2019, 01:37:39 PM
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Wow. What a weekend of soccer. Hate to be that guy that quotes his own correct prediction, but I'm going to be that guy for a sec because I want to make a point. I think many just assumed that Chicago would be a contender, because, well it's Chicago. Let this be a reminder that just because a team has legacy, does not mean that that legacy will shine through each year. I think there are some schools that people automatically assume will contend, and they largely have earned the right to have that assumption made, but remember that each year it's a new team, and that teams should be judged on what they did during the year (as is protocol for selection committee) not what they have done in years prior. Some people may not like this comment, but I think many know it's true whether or not they like it.
BTW, take nothing away from the performance of OWU and one of the best coaches in college soccer, Jay Martin. OWU looks hungry.
I think I follow your point and your caveat at the end is appreciated, but just because a team loses or is upset doesn't necessarily mean they were overrated. I mean, come on, Chicago was undefeated (7-0-0) in one of the two top conferences in the country and DID NOT ALLOW A SINGLE GOAL. They looked to be in decent shape versus OWU for much of the game too. OWU has said they made some adjustments, but the game really turned once OWU scored to draw even. That happened late enough for OWU to get a burst of momentum that led to a go-ahead goal and then Chicago just didn't have much time to respond. I'm sure the Maroons were shell-shocked at the final whistle wondering what had just happened to them. And it does take away from OWU's gutsy win to suggest that Chicago wasn't really that good. There rightfully is a lot of focus on Tufts and Messiah, but OWU has done this NCAA thing a couple of times....a record 41 NCAA appearances to be exact, and the Battling Bishops are unlikely to ever be eclipsed on that measure.
Quote from: rudy on November 18, 2019, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:31:49 AM
Just to clarify...and then moving ahead.
I DO think Tufts should be hosting. A very good facility and atmosphere for hosting as well. I was just saying that the hosting logistics and unforeseen consequences have benefited Tufts directly in the past, so let's at least acknowledge that in a discussion about how utterly ridiculous something is. As Shapiro says, the margins get smaller and smaller as you progress in the tournament, so if we're going to talk about advantages that should be earned then we at least should mention advantages that aren't "earned." Other than myself who had a vested interest, I can't think of another poster commenting on or acknowledging what fell in Tufts' lap in 2016, and in addition to the items already mentioned that year (Trinity too far away and a field problem elsewhere was the fantastical inability of Haverford to close out a 9-man UMass-Boston team...or was it 8?). Anyway, merit is merit and logistics are logistics. Clearly the NCAA uses a hybrid approach. And Tufts has thrived in these situations before....beating Messiah, Montclair and Rowan (all favored at the time) on the road.
The other thing unless this is a mistake....Amherst is the only "top seed" playing the early game. The other top seeds are currently scheduled for the later game.
On another topic, Conn College has sort of flown under the radar. The Camels have a real chance to reach the Final Four which would be enormous for that program and that school. in addition to their obvious defensive stinginess anchored by Marcucci, I was surprised at Conn's ability to sustain real offensive pressure on an excellent JHU squad (at least in the 2nd half from what I saw).
I hate to jinx Kenyon Paul but right now they have a pretty favorable shot at the final 4. No tufts, Messiah, Amherst or Calvin to play through and they appear to be peaking. Could be the year.
All you can ask for is a fair chance to keep competing. If the Lords keep upping their intensity, cut out the unforced errors in the back, keep up the attacking pressure, and realize that any of the other three teams can take them out I think they'll have a chance.
One game at a time, and play that next game like it is the national championship game.
Kind of ironic that both UAA teams lost to NCAC teams, the turning point in both games very tough PK's. Tried to see what happened in the OWU game - the alleged foul was far enough away from the under served ball in. Got to be more of a significant chance negated by a foul for me to whistle that one. But that seemed to change the energy in the game - UC no excuses on the second goal, got caught pressing for an equalizer on the third.
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
The Amherst quad is really interesting with RPI, Messiah, Rowan and Amherst. All 4 teams have their own identities and will go at this in totally different ways. Messiah on a field 65 yards wide against an organized defensive team that will be sitting in and digging deep. They will let Messiah do whatever it wants with the ball until they cross half. Then RPI will go into full suffocate mode and the field will be their 12th teammate. RPI has some creativity in midfield that allows them dangerous looks on the counter. RPI looked solid last night against Midd showing vision in midfield and were physically ready to battle MIDD for every ball. The recruiting job Adam Clinton has done with this bunch has been phenomenal and if he ever could get this RPI side to the NCAA Final 4 it could be his last chance at a golden ticket out of Troy, NY. No offense to RPI but their administration has never cared about Mens Soccer and at least in the past gave Clinton minimal support. He wanted the Skidmore job when it opened in 2013 which should tell you everything. Now maybe things have changed because I do notice a bigger staff, which doesn't really mean anything but I doubt it..RPI is and always will be a Hockey and Football school. The best way to beat RPI is to score as early as you can before they can get comfortable defensively especially on a neutral field. The longer Messiah waits to score the harder it will get against RPI.
Amherst is starting to build its own little rivalries with the top half of the NJAC. They usually have one NJAC on the Regular Season schedule now and are also finding themselves having to go thru them in their NCAA pursuits. I did not see a lick of Amherst this past weekend nor have I seen Rowan play this year. I have absolutely no statistics to back this up but I get the sense that NJAC teams might have a bad record when game time is at 11am. IF Rowan comes out the least bit flat then it will be lights out. THEY must be ready to go. If they can do that and settle into the game without conceding than it should be a great D3 Soccer match with some possible fireworks if everything goes well especially 2nd Half...
Just a quick shout out to the Tufts broadcasting team. They provided a good play by play and color the whole game. They obviously know the guys off the field so that insider knowledge is what the neutral is looking for. Like when the play by play guy noticed a fan yelling at the ref and the color guy say's all nonchalantly "oh that's so and so Dad". Stuff like that can be invaluable to the viewer whether they realize they are giving them that or not. Also, BOTH were very fair and could be heard even grumbling about Tufts at times and their play PLUS it was snowing. Im a sucker for the whole snow thing when watching a game once in a while.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
Kind of ironic that both UAA teams lost to NCAC teams, the turning point in both games very tough PK's. Tried to see what happened in the OWU game - the alleged foul was far enough away from the under served ball in. Got to be more of a significant chance negated by a foul for me to whistle that one. But that seemed to change the energy in the game - UC no excuses on the second goal, got caught pressing for an equalizer on the third.
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Even as a UAA fan, I'll be the first to admit that this year's UAA was hardly a vintage edition. Chicago was better than I thought it would be, no doubt, and going 7-0 (and conceding no goals!) in the UAA is impressive and historic. That said, Chicago rolling through the competition — including the other UAA representative, Rochester, whose late-season clutch results got it a bid that would have seemed unlikely in October — perhaps says a lot of the strength of the conference this year: Brandeis' 3-3-1 conference record included no ranked wins in conference play; NYU's 3-0 UAA start came crumbling down; Emory's 2-2-3 conference record put it above .500 (still winning less than 1/3 of its games); and the other three teams were not in the running. Put it this way, there only looked like two bids (including the AQ) realistically for the UAA come Selection Monday; in my experience, there are usually more than that.
I didn't see the penalty incident, just the Kenyon player lining up to take (and scoring) the kick. Sounds like Rochester got hosed. That's unfortunate, and #27 is Will Eisold, the Rochester CB who stood out as a FY and was UR's standout player this year, for me. A bit surprised he didn't get all-UAA commendation. Anyway, Rochester defended well against Kenyon — keeping its shape while pressing from the front — but even with the unfortunate ending I think most will agree that the Yellowjackets were second-best on the day in terms of general play. Once Kenyon got the equalizer, you kind of had the sense that there would only be one winner (and so it proved). Grit can get a team far, and Rochester has that in abundance, but generating offense beyond being opportunistic on goalmouth scrambles is important. Aside from one half-chance to make it 2-0, they never really did that. Put it this way, I would have been surprised if they made it to the second weekend (then again, I said the same thing two years ago when they then knocked out Oneonta and Amherst en route to an Elite 8 appearance). Either way, that's a brutal way to end the season.
As for OWU, really interested to see that Sectional! Luther in its second-successive Sweet 16 against an OWU side that many rated but perhaps didn't see getting by Chicago; Calvin and North Park doing battle in the other. Potential for great theater in all three games.
Incredibly entertaining first weekend. I feel like we have 16 extremely deserving teams remaining, with 4 very even pods left. The pod I am personally most interested in is the central region pod (mostly because I live in Illinois, I am a Wheaton fan, and am most familiar with these teams), as it is has 4 extremely talented teams in it. I think we all assumed Chicago was going to make it here (and would be hosting) - which has thrown quite the wrench in this.
The OWU-Luther match pits a lot of technical skill against each other. In watching their 2 games this weekend, I was quite impressed with both teams and I wouldn't be surprised to see this match go into OT/PK's - as they appear to be quite evenly matched. Both teams are playing some of their best soccer at the right time and I can't help to think that Jay Martin's experience in these situations may be the difference maker. Prediction 2-1 OWU (2 OT).
The nightcap (or daycap in this case) puts the last 2 national runner-ups against each other, as Calvin takes on the home side, North Park. Obviously, NP caught a significant break with Chicago bowing out - allowing them the chance to host this Pod. However, I don't think it will change the outcome of the game, as every team is comfortable on turf (compared to having to play on grass, when you have only played on turf all year). Calvin goes as Olson/Twigg go, so it will be interesting to see the defensive tactics that Kris Grahn puts into place to minimize the impact. Similarly, North Park is at it's best when Olsen/Ericsson are allowed space in the midfield to attack. When that space is tightened up and team's play physical with them, it tends to lead to the ball being stagnant and NP becomes ineffective. I expect this game to be up and down the pitch, quite entertaining for the fans. One key factor will be the health of 2 NP players (GK-Stuhlen and F-Khoury). Khoury went down in the first half and didn't return. Stuhlen went out before OT and didn't return. The one part of the field where NP seems to lack depth is up top, so it will be critical for them that Khoury is able to go. I think it goes one of two ways, either Calvin scores early and wins big (3-0) or NP wins a 2-1 or 1-0 game. My gut is telling me the latter, so from a prediction perspective, I will take an NP win 2-1 in regular time.
This sets up a unique battle between NP and OWU, as you have a first year head coach going up against a legend. I think NP has a pace advantage, especially on the wings, and will be able to create quality scoring chances. I like NP winning this one 2-0 and heading back to Greensboro for the 2nd time in 3 years.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
Kind of ironic that both UAA teams lost to NCAC teams, the turning point in both games very tough PK's. Tried to see what happened in the OWU game - the alleged foul was far enough away from the under served ball in. Got to be more of a significant chance negated by a foul for me to whistle that one. But that seemed to change the energy in the game - UC no excuses on the second goal, got caught pressing for an equalizer on the third.
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
I didn't realize that was Eisold (#27). Great player and I recall him being touted last year as a frosh including against Messiah. He had an excellent game and the goal for UR. He seemed to perhaps tire in the latter stages as I noticed him having to resort to slide tackles a couple of times before the fateful play. I didn't see it and I'm no ref expert. What I saw and then heard described afterwards is that the increasingly dangerous right back (Muther) for Kenyon made a terrific run with the ball into the box, had the angle on Eisold for a good short cross through the goal mouth, and when Eisold did his slide tackle Muther jumped the tackle and left the ball next to Eisold who then supposedly handled. Kenyon led the stats by a decent margin, but the game obviously could have gone either way. Would be interested in Domino's overall impressions in addition to the PK foul analysis. IMO Rochester had their chance to take the game in the first few minutes of OT when Kenyon could not clear and UR got at least two free kicks and I think three corners in a very short span. Kenyon almost put the game away a couple of times in regulation after drawing level with about 15 min to go.
Quote from: YoungBuck on November 14, 2019, 02:32:17 PM
YB's Predictions:
32: Amherst, Ithaca, Mary Washington, Rowan, RPI, Middlebury, Messiah, Oneonta, JCU, Centre, CMS, Trinity TX, F&M, Montclair, Kenyon, Rochester, Hopkins, Conn, CNU, Roanoke, Tufts, WPI, W&L, Gettysburg, Chicago, OWU, Luther, UW-Superior, Calvin, Ohio Northern, North Park, Gustavus
16: Amherst, Mary Wash, Middlebury, Messiah, JCU, Trinity TX, Montclair, Kenyon, Hopkins, Roanoke, Tufts, W&L, Chicago, Luther, Calvin, North Park
8: Amherst, Messiah, JCU, Kenyon, Hopkins, Tufts, Chicago, Calvin
4: Messiah, JCU, Hopkins, Calvin
Final: Messiah 3-1 Hopkins
30/32 in First Round
9/16 in Second Round ???
Not that I have any credibility with which to make predictions, but here's how I'd rank the remaining teams going forward, from most likely to take it home to least. As others have mentioned, the paths to Greensboro have really opened up for Tufts and Kenyon. I still like a healthy Messiah over Amherst, and it's hard to bet against Calvin to make it there. Can't see the home field advantage helping Swat too much, but I've been wrong before.
1. Tufts
2. Calvin
3. Messiah
4. Kenyon
5. Amherst
6. North Park
7. OWU
---------------------
8. Conn
9. Montclair
10. Rowan
11. W&L
12. RPI
13. Luther
---------------------
14. CMS
15. Centre
---------------------
16. Swat (sorry, no way)
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
MAF NCAA Picks
Round 32
Amherst
Keene
Mary Wash
Rowan
RPI
Midd
Messiah
Oneonta
JC
KZoo
Claremont
Trinity
F&M
Hobart
Behrend
UR
JHU
Conn
CNU
Swat
Tufts
WPI
W&L
Oglethorpe
Chicago
OWU
Luther
Central
Calvin
ONU
NP
GA
Sweet 16
Amherst
Rowan
Midd
Oneonta
Kzoo
Trinity
F&M
UR
JHU
CNU
Tufts
W&L
OWU
Luther
Calvin
GA
Elite 8
Amherst
Oneonta
Trinity
F&M
JHU
W&L
Luther
Calvin
Final 4
Amherst
F&M
W&L
Calvin
Final
Amherst
Calvin
Champion
Calvin (2-1)
::) ::) ::)
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
Oglethorpe, Roanoke, Ithaca, ONU, Trinity, Colorado, Central and Hope all making the committee look a little rough...most notably Oglethorpe, Roanoke and Hope. All were bubble teams who got thrashed in the first round. 2 goals combined by the 3 teams and that team being Roanoke who scored both. Gave up 9 goals combined. Hope faced a tough OWU team but looked rough to say the least especially considering they were hosting. Oglethorpe never stepped off the bus and Roanoke at least put up a fight but lost to a team that couldn't make their conference playoffs and hadn't played a game in 14 days. And sure you can argue that Swarthmore is now in the Sweet 16 but they bounced 2 South Atlantic teams in the process...not a good look for the at-large surprises that were awarded to this region. With that said, the top of the region has been strong in W&L, Centre and Rowan but no one argued that. Montclair with a nice run as well to demolish the beaten down East region. RPI is all that remains? The Mid-Atlantic had a great opening day but faltered in the second round. Most games were competitive and hard fought which speaks to the strength of the region but tough to see F&M and JHU both bow out so early. New England is always tough and have proven so once again. 3 teams remain from the top of their region and I don't think anyone is surprised by that. GL looking okay but John Carroll once again hosts and disappoints. Kenyon and OWU look like the cream of the crop from that region and can make nice runs to the finish line. Luther, Calvin and North Park all look beatable but will be tough outs. Claremont is a mystery but bounced a questionable Trinity with ease. The West not well represented outside of Claremont. F&M and JC just aren't tourney teams despite their continued regular season success. Always a disappointment to the many that pick them. ONU maybe biggest disappointment as the SOS and ranked wins looked great but the first round performance did not.
Region Breakdown:
NE: 3
East: 1
MA: 2
SA: 4
GL: 2
Cen: 2
North: 1
West: 1
Toughest Sectionals:
Swarthmore
Amherst
North Park
Kenyon
Quote from: Falconer on November 18, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
I also watched the on-line stream with the poor camera work.
On the PK, I think the foul occurred only a couple steps inside the left edge of the box and I don't remember it as Groothoff heading directly for goal at the time of the foul. My memory has Groothoff starting left of center and breaking past a defender by carrying the ball a little wider and with the keeper coming out to challenge he continued taking the ball wider to attempt elude the keeper. And I thought it was the goalkeeper who stayed on the ground longer.
On the Hernandez goal, I assumed Messiah was claiming handball which I had no way of having an opinion on with the camera zoomed out and the number of bodies in the area preventing a clean view of it.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 18, 2019, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 18, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
I also watched the on-line stream with the poor camera work.
On the PK, I think the foul occurred only a couple steps inside the left edge of the box and I don't remember it as Groothoff heading directly for goal at the time of the foul. My memory has Groothoff starting left of center and breaking past a defender by carrying the ball a little wider and with the keeper coming out to challenge he continued taking the ball wider to attempt elude the keeper. And I thought it was the goalkeeper who stayed on the ground longer.
On the Hernandez goal, I assumed Messiah was claiming handball which I had no way of having an opinion on with the camera zoomed out and the number of bodies in the area preventing a clean view of it.
The game video is still available online at https://livestream.com/accounts/14594035. Scroll down to "Past Events".
The run-up to the Oneonta goal starts at 0:43:58 of the video timeline. The ball definitely appears to bounce up and hit his arm and most of the Falcons were calling for a hand ball.
The run-up to the foul on LG starts at 1:43:15.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 18, 2019, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 18, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
I also watched the on-line stream with the poor camera work.
On the PK, I think the foul occurred only a couple steps inside the left edge of the box and I don't remember it as Groothoff heading directly for goal at the time of the foul. My memory has Groothoff starting left of center and breaking past a defender by carrying the ball a little wider and with the keeper coming out to challenge he continued taking the ball wider to attempt elude the keeper. And I thought it was the goalkeeper who stayed on the ground longer.
On the Hernandez goal, I assumed Messiah was claiming handball which I had no way of having an opinion on with the camera zoomed out and the number of bodies in the area preventing a clean view of it.
Appreciate the second memory of this, very much. Admittedly I was focused on Groothoff, since I had the impression he was hurt on the play and obviously really concerned about that. if the keeper actually stayed down longer, I didn't notice. But, Groothoff did eventually rise, stayed briefly on the field, then left and didn't return.
Hand ball? Very interesting. Certainly couldn't see that from the stream, but we couldn't see the front of his torso anyway.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 18, 2019, 02:06:37 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
MAF NCAA Picks
Round 32
Amherst
Keene
Mary Wash
Rowan
RPI
Midd
Messiah
Oneonta
JC
KZoo
Claremont
Trinity
F&M
Hobart
Behrend
UR
JHU
Conn
CNU
Swat
Tufts
WPI
W&L
Oglethorpe
Chicago
OWU
Luther
Central
Calvin
ONU
NP
GA
Sweet 16
Amherst
Rowan
Midd
Oneonta
Kzoo
Trinity
F&M
UR
JHU
CNU
Tufts
W&L
OWU
Luther
Calvin
GA
Elite 8
Amherst
Oneonta
Trinity
F&M
JHU
W&L
Luther
Calvin
Final 4
Amherst
F&M
W&L
Calvin
Final
Amherst
Calvin
Champion
Calvin (2-1)
::) ::) ::)
Man do you need my Generals to come through. I'm not sure I'd make that pick. Tufts is... a big ask in November. That being said, I'm thrilled this team gets the chance to try to climb the mountain. It should be a great experience win or lose. They are young, and while they will certainly miss the few seniors next year, especially Dolberg who I think is the heart of the team this year, I think next year might be the best chance to break through to the top level.
And yes, I love Coach Singleton. What he's done to push this program forward, tactically and with recruiting, has been phenomenal. Every off season I get concerned he will move on to a higher profile job. Having seen what happened when we lost our transformative football coach 2 seasons ago, holding on to Coach Singleton is imperative in my opinion.
Quote from: Dave B on November 18, 2019, 03:27:32 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 18, 2019, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 18, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
I also watched the on-line stream with the poor camera work.
On the PK, I think the foul occurred only a couple steps inside the left edge of the box and I don't remember it as Groothoff heading directly for goal at the time of the foul. My memory has Groothoff starting left of center and breaking past a defender by carrying the ball a little wider and with the keeper coming out to challenge he continued taking the ball wider to attempt elude the keeper. And I thought it was the goalkeeper who stayed on the ground longer.
On the Hernandez goal, I assumed Messiah was claiming handball which I had no way of having an opinion on with the camera zoomed out and the number of bodies in the area preventing a clean view of it.
The game video is still available online at https://livestream.com/accounts/14594035. Scroll down to "Past Events".
The run-up to the Oneonta goal starts at 0:43:58 of the video timeline. The ball definitely appears to bounce up and hit his arm and most of the Falcons were calling for a hand ball.
The run-up to the foul on LG starts at 1:43:15.
Yes, watching it again, the ball definitely seems to kick up and hit Hernandez' arm before dropping at his side to shoot, but I can't tell if the ball kicked up off his foot or the defender's foot (or less likely off the turf). If it came off the defender's foot, can't really call that back for a hand ball, but if it was off his own touch, then I think cries for a handball were fully justified. In the end it did not affect the outcome, but at the time it felt like it might signal a shift of momentum that could see Oneonta tie-up the game and change the whole complexion of the game.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 18, 2019, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 18, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
Although watched the whole game (Messiah v Onteonta) on the stream, the picture was small, sometimes the camera wasn't pointing at the action (including on Messiah's second goal), and otherwise wasn't exactly the best. So, I have two questions for anyone who was actually at the game--sure you would have had a much better view.
(1) The play that resulted in the PK for Messiah, when the keeper collided with or took down Luke Groothoff: All I could see was two guys appear to make contact, as Groothoff was heading directly for the goal with the ball at his feet; then they were both on the ground, and Grootoff took a lot longer to get up. I saw the penalty being called. What actually happened? Was the play also carded?
(2) Oneonta scored when their main scorer (Hernandez) knocked one in from close in front, amidst some defenders. It looked good to me and it counted, but I noticed that Messiah's keeper had a conversation with the official afterwards, making gestures I was unable to see too clearly. What was his complaint? Was perhaps Hernandez offside? Did he perhaps shove one or two defenders out of the way? If anyone saw that play more clearly, just curious to hear the full story. Maybe it was just making something out of nothing, but Falcon players don't customarily do that...
I also watched the on-line stream with the poor camera work.
On the PK, I think the foul occurred only a couple steps inside the left edge of the box and I don't remember it as Groothoff heading directly for goal at the time of the foul. My memory has Groothoff starting left of center and breaking past a defender by carrying the ball a little wider and with the keeper coming out to challenge he continued taking the ball wider to attempt elude the keeper. And I thought it was the goalkeeper who stayed on the ground longer.
On the Hernandez goal, I assumed Messiah was claiming handball which I had no way of having an opinion on with the camera zoomed out and the number of bodies in the area preventing a clean view of it.
I believe the keepers head hit him in the thigh and took him down in the box in the process for the pk. And the discussion over the Oneonta goal was definitely whether it was a handball. Goal counted so I guess they ruled incidental contact with hand or they just didn't see it to over rule the goal.
Appreciate the chance to see it unfold again like this. FW is right--LG wasn't going straight to the goal, though obviously he intended to turn and do so; but, I'm right that Luke was on the ground longer than the keeper. Still hard to see exactly what the contact was, so it's good to have rudy's report on that. Thanks to all who chimed in.
The handball is still hard for my old eyes to see, but I if that's what the discussion was about, it must have happened. I don't think the players would all be asking for something they didn't see happen, in the heat of the moment.
As FW said, it was a huge non-call. I assumed it was a legitimate goal, and it certainly turned around the momentum. Not blaming anyone for this. All of us make mistakes, some of which can't be corrected.
Watched that back about 5 times... I don't have a problem with that Oneonta goal. I also could make a case that his arm position was such that it could be seen as handling. Extremely close call that you really can't get worked up over, either way.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
I was also at the match yesterday, in the UR section of the stands so not far from your place along the fence, and my immediate impression of the play was 'clean' and any contact negligible. Everyone wearing blue & yellow - every fan, team member and coach i heard said the same thing, not a penalty. But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate). IF there was any arm contact it would've had no effect on the position of the ball or the players around it. There was no "hand to ball", no change of the direction of the ball, no denial of a goal scoring opportunity, no unnatural hand position, nothing to justify killing a game and robbing both teams of the chance to decide it with their play. I take nothing away from the Kenyon player who converted the PK - a high pressure moment and he finished, so well done to him. But to end that contest on the sort of play that all refs are taught to wave "Play On!" to and let the game decide it, it's just a crying shame.
The game was everything you want in an NCAA tournament game - the players giving it their all, fans backing their teams, coaches making tactical changes, an even match with both teams creating chances. Rochester was the better team in the early going and got the first point, Kenyon responded and pressed hard, especially in the 2nd half - creating their own chances but also inviting counters, making for an exciting back and forth. In OT the first 7 minutes saw a flurry of Rochester attacks, a pair of corners and a few free kicks and the feeling was that UR would find the winner. But unfortunately that one call will now mar the game in the memory banks. I remember leaving Grantham, PA two years ago after Messiah beat Rochester in the Elite 8 and hearing players and fans all say "great battle, but they were better". Last year the feeling was that Tufts took that semifinal game - physically but fairly, they were better. But this feeling, this isn't easy to settle with. Losing to an opinion is awful.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 18, 2019, 02:43:58 PM
Oglethorpe, Roanoke, Ithaca, ONU, Trinity, Colorado, Central and Hope all making the committee look a little rough...most notably Oglethorpe, Roanoke and Hope. All were bubble teams who got thrashed in the first round. 2 goals combined by the 3 teams and that team being Roanoke who scored both. Gave up 9 goals combined. Hope faced a tough OWU team but looked rough to say the least especially considering they were hosting. Oglethorpe never stepped off the bus and Roanoke at least put up a fight but lost to a team that couldn't make their conference playoffs and hadn't played a game in 14 days. And sure you can argue that Swarthmore is now in the Sweet 16 but they bounced 2 South Atlantic teams in the process...not a good look for the at-large surprises that were awarded to this region. With that said, the top of the region has been strong in W&L, Centre and Rowan but no one argued that. Montclair with a nice run as well to demolish the beaten down East region. RPI is all that remains? The Mid-Atlantic had a great opening day but faltered in the second round. Most games were competitive and hard fought which speaks to the strength of the region but tough to see F&M and JHU both bow out so early. New England is always tough and have proven so once again. 3 teams remain from the top of their region and I don't think anyone is surprised by that. GL looking okay but John Carroll once again hosts and disappoints. Kenyon and OWU look like the cream of the crop from that region and can make nice runs to the finish line. Luther, Calvin and North Park all look beatable but will be tough outs. Claremont is a mystery but bounced a questionable Trinity with ease. The West not well represented outside of Claremont. F&M and JC just aren't tourney teams despite their continued regular season success. Always a disappointment to the many that pick them. ONU maybe biggest disappointment as the SOS and ranked wins looked great but the first round performance did not.
Region Breakdown:
NE: 3
East: 1
MA: 2
SA: 4
GL: 2
Cen: 2
North: 1
West: 1
Toughest Sectionals:
Swarthmore
Amherst
North Park
Kenyon
how did Ithaca make the committee look bad? They won a true road game in Round 1 and held maybe the #1 overall seed to 2-0 on a neutral field...that's as good or better than most of Amherst's opponents did.
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
I was also at the match yesterday, in the UR section of the stands so not far from your place along the fence, and my immediate impression of the play was 'clean' and any contact negligible. Everyone wearing blue & yellow - every fan, team member and coach i heard said the same thing, not a penalty. But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate). IF there was any arm contact it would've had no effect on the position of the ball or the players around it. There was no "hand to ball", no change of the direction of the ball, no denial of a goal scoring opportunity, no unnatural hand position, nothing to justify killing a game and robbing both teams of the chance to decide it with their play. I take nothing away from the Kenyon player who converted the PK - a high pressure moment and he finished, so well done to him. But to end that contest on the sort of play that all refs are taught to wave "Play On!" to and let the game decide it, it's just a crying shame.
The game was everything you want in an NCAA tournament game - the players giving it their all, fans backing their teams, coaches making tactical changes, an even match with both teams creating chances. Rochester was the better team in the early going and got the first point, Kenyon responded and pressed hard, especially in the 2nd half - creating their own chances but also inviting counters, making for an exciting back and forth. In OT the first 7 minutes saw a flurry of Rochester attacks, a pair of corners and a few free kicks and the feeling was that UR would find the winner. But unfortunately that one call will now mar the game in the memory banks. I remember leaving Grantham, PA two years ago after Messiah beat Rochester in the Elite 8 and hearing players and fans all say "great battle, but they were better". Last year the feeling was that Tufts took that semifinal game - physically but fairly, they were better. But this feeling, this isn't easy to settle with. Losing to an opinion is awful.
Do you have a link to the video? I couldn't find anything.
Any credit to the Kenyon player who drove into the box and had the corner on the UR defender and put the defender in a vulnerable situation?
I would quibble just a bit with your characterization of the first half. The UR back line was superb but imo the Lords still dominated possession and the UR goal happened due to a blatant unforced error by Kenyon's very good frosh CB who made a weak, mis-hit pass with no pressure close to midfield that was easily picked off and turned into a throw in for UR and then failed clearances by Kenyon after that and a scrum goal.
And I also thought UR was going to score in the OT sequence you mentioned. It wasn't so much repeated attacks as much as Kenyon couldn't get a clear from the initial foray into the Lords' final third and kept giving up corners and free kicks. Anyway, UR definitely had opportunity and could have won it there.
I wasn't at the game but definitely looked like a very competitive, well played match overall between two worthy opponents. I knew UR was going to be a problem. I am sorry that you and other UR folks left with bad feelings about the ending. I know that is a horrible feeling and one that does stick for a long time.
OK, I lied. One more thought on sectional hosting. 2014. Almost identical in the sense that hosting went to Muhlenberg, another Centennial which I presume was also the lowest seed in the sectional just like Swat now. The difference was not flights (I think) but rather that Messiah wasn't hosting ONLY because the Messiah women had Shoemaker. The Lady Falcons fell in PKs to Lynchburg in the Elite 8 in Grantham ironically enough, although Lynchburg also was undefeated going into the match. Anyway, another instance when Tufts benefited. I imagine Messiah nation believes that match might have ended differently at home. I forgot that Messiah destroyed Cortland the day before 6-0. Who knows, maybe this will be the year we get the long awaited rematch, although I certainly hope not ;)
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 06:19:18 PM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
I was also at the match yesterday, in the UR section of the stands so not far from your place along the fence, and my immediate impression of the play was 'clean' and any contact negligible. Everyone wearing blue & yellow - every fan, team member and coach i heard said the same thing, not a penalty. But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate). IF there was any arm contact it would've had no effect on the position of the ball or the players around it. There was no "hand to ball", no change of the direction of the ball, no denial of a goal scoring opportunity, no unnatural hand position, nothing to justify killing a game and robbing both teams of the chance to decide it with their play. I take nothing away from the Kenyon player who converted the PK - a high pressure moment and he finished, so well done to him. But to end that contest on the sort of play that all refs are taught to wave "Play On!" to and let the game decide it, it's just a crying shame.
The game was everything you want in an NCAA tournament game - the players giving it their all, fans backing their teams, coaches making tactical changes, an even match with both teams creating chances. Rochester was the better team in the early going and got the first point, Kenyon responded and pressed hard, especially in the 2nd half - creating their own chances but also inviting counters, making for an exciting back and forth. In OT the first 7 minutes saw a flurry of Rochester attacks, a pair of corners and a few free kicks and the feeling was that UR would find the winner. But unfortunately that one call will now mar the game in the memory banks. I remember leaving Grantham, PA two years ago after Messiah beat Rochester in the Elite 8 and hearing players and fans all say "great battle, but they were better". Last year the feeling was that Tufts took that semifinal game - physically but fairly, they were better. But this feeling, this isn't easy to settle with. Losing to an opinion is awful.
Do you have a link to the video? I couldn't find anything.
Any credit to the Kenyon player who drove into the box and had the corner on the UR defender and put the defender in a vulnerable situation?
I would quibble just a bit with your characterization of the first half. The UR back line was superb but imo the Lords still dominated possession and the UR goal happened due to a blatant unforced error by Kenyon's very good frosh CB who made a weak, mis-hit pass with no pressure close to midfield that was easily picked off and turned into a throw in for UR and then failed clearances by Kenyon after that and a scrum goal.
And I also thought UR was going to score in the OT sequence you mentioned. It wasn't so much repeated attacks as much as Kenyon couldn't get a clear from the initial foray into the Lords' final third and kept giving up corners and free kicks. Anyway, UR definitely had opportunity and could have won it there.
I wasn't at the game but definitely looked like a very competitive, well played match overall between two worthy opponents. I knew UR was going to be a problem. I am sorry that you and other UR folks left with bad feelings about the ending. I know that is a horrible feeling and one that does stick for a long time.
Sure, Muther deserves some credit. But i saw it the same way that Mat saw it. The UofR defender went to ground to block the cross, the ball hit him, and I don't think he did anything to make himself bigger, so they should have played on.
So he made the slide tackle to stop the cross, the Kenyon player jumps over him to avoid the slide, and he lands on the ball. And does he touch the ball with his hand? Arm? The ref didn't hesitate at all from what I could see. Does he simply not know the rule? Any chance any other ref would have called for a PK? Did the UR player contribute anything to the call going against him? Sounds like he made a play and because of his play to stop a play he had some type of contact with the ball with hand and/or arm. Some descriptions have made it sound like what happened to him was totally accidental and that he did nothing to put himself at risk of a call. Can someone produce the video?
I happened to tune into the Kenyon - UR OT, and saw the tackle which led to the PK. My initial reaction -- keeping in mind that I'm nothing more than a soccer parent -- was that the UR tackle looked good, Kenyon player leapt over the defender, and then, the call was made. I could not see hand ball contact from the live stream and did not realize (sound was off) that hand ball was the basis for the PK. I tried to re-watch the play, but could not rewind the live stream. Perhaps someone with access to Kenyon archived film could locate it?
Quote from: midwest on November 18, 2019, 07:46:12 PM
I happened to tune into the Kenyon - UR OT, and saw the tackle which led to the PK. My initial reaction -- keeping in mind that I'm nothing more than a soccer parent -- was that the UR tackle looked good, Kenyon player leapt over the defender, and then, the call was made. I could not see hand ball contact from the live stream and did not realize (sound was off) that hand ball was the basis for the PK. I tried to re-watch the play, but could not rewind the live stream. Perhaps someone with access to Kenyon archived film could locate it?
After this I'm gonna stop at least until seeing some video. Apparently Rochester parents have seen it. I couldn't see what happened on live stream. That may be at least partly because the UR player's body blocked the view. Not sure. It also seems possible that the ref and some of the players had a view that you wouldn't see even from 10 yards away if the view from the sideline was blocked or partially blocked. As I said yesterday, when watching live my initial thought was that Kenyon had earned a corner. But several Kenyon players and the announcer immediately shouted out for a penalty. Must have seen something with that immediate of a reaction. And I do recall thinking as Muther was turning the corner that Kenyon was going to have a great chance of scoring. And I have to say that it's hard to believe that the ref made the call unless he was absolutely sure given the magnitude of the moment. If he botched the call entirely then outrage is totally understandable. I would be outraged. It is amazing that Eisold didn't flip out at least a little too, given the stakes.
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate).
PN, I have been trying to find the video without success as well. MaturinNYC, if you have a link to the video of the Kenyon v. UR game it would be appreciated.
Quote from: D3Grad on November 17, 2019, 06:15:26 PM
North Park-Gustavus game is very chippy as Gustavus got the late equalizer. Hard to say what happened but an NP player was down on the ground holding his head(?) as Gustavus sent a cross in.
I didn't see it when I was calling the game live, but I watched the game again last night and it appeared that a GAC player put an elbow or a forearm into the back of NPU midfielder Gustav Ericsson's head at the near post when he (the GAC player) was swinging around to track the cross as it sailed past him to the far post, where GAC's Otis Anderson headed it in for the equalizer. The elbow may have been inadvertent, as it looked like it may have been part of a natural turning movement.
Quote from: D3Grad on November 17, 2019, 06:15:26 PMNorth Park arguing everything with the referee. Reminds me of a few years ago when North Park was the beneficiary of many whistles. Maybe the karma whistle has made it back to North Park.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/b8/ca/d2b8cac47346bdc7fd703e166a591e94.gif)
Quote from: mr_b on November 17, 2019, 08:08:56 PM
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 17, 2019, 08:00:21 PM
Susan,
I watched the game online and it was clear that it wasn't a flop. He simply tripped over his own feet. The center got the call wrong, the AR got it right and in the end - the right call was made. Your observation on it being a "flop" was incorrect.
I agree that it was not a flop. He just overran and fell. The ref conferred with the linesman, and they got the call right. The complaining might have been over the subsequent possession, which went to the Gustavus GK.
Definitely not a flop. It was obvious what happened after we showed the replay. The NPU player in question, Gianfranco DeCarne, was leaning forward as he raced into the box, intent upon keeping his head over the ball so that he didn't lift it too high when he shot. Unfortunately, he leaned out too far and simply fell over. It's not the first time that that's happened in a soccer game, and it definitely won't be the last. One of the school's game photographers, who is an NPU prof, posted a picture on Facebook today of DeCarne starting to tumble, and you can see that that's exactly what happened.
We showed the replay on the air, I changed my initial call that DeCarne had been tripped, and after the refs conferred and reversed the original call I said that they got it right.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: RollToms on November 17, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: RollToms on November 13, 2019, 01:37:39 PM
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Wow. What a weekend of soccer. Hate to be that guy that quotes his own correct prediction, but I'm going to be that guy for a sec because I want to make a point. I think many just assumed that Chicago would be a contender, because, well it's Chicago. Let this be a reminder that just because a team has legacy, does not mean that that legacy will shine through each year. I think there are some schools that people automatically assume will contend, and they largely have earned the right to have that assumption made, but remember that each year it's a new team, and that teams should be judged on what they did during the year (as is protocol for selection committee) not what they have done in years prior. Some people may not like this comment, but I think many know it's true whether or not they like it.
BTW, take nothing away from the performance of OWU and one of the best coaches in college soccer, Jay Martin. OWU looks hungry.
I think I follow your point and your caveat at the end is appreciated, but just because a team loses or is upset doesn't necessarily mean they were overrated.
This.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMI mean, come on, Chicago was undefeated (7-0-0) in one of the two top conferences in the country and DID NOT ALLOW A SINGLE GOAL. They looked to be in decent shape versus OWU for much of the game too. OWU has said they made some adjustments, but the game really turned once OWU scored to draw even. That happened late enough for OWU to get a burst of momentum that led to a go-ahead goal and then Chicago just didn't have much time to respond. I'm sure the Maroons were shell-shocked at the final whistle wondering what had just happened to them. And it does take away from OWU's gutsy win to suggest that Chicago wasn't really that good.
This, too.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMThere rightfully is a lot of focus on Tufts and Messiah, but OWU has done this NCAA thing a couple of times....a record 41 NCAA appearances to be exact, and the Battling Bishops are unlikely to ever be eclipsed on that measure.
From your mouth to God's ear, 'cause Wheaton's in second place behind OWU with 36 appearances, and I don't like the implication for NPU of Wheaton being able to make up that five-appearances deficit. ;)
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 18, 2019, 01:19:44 PMThe nightcap (or daycap in this case) puts the last 2 national runner-ups against each other, as Calvin takes on the home side, North Park. Obviously, NP caught a significant break with Chicago bowing out - allowing them the chance to host this Pod. However, I don't think it will change the outcome of the game, as every team is comfortable on turf (compared to having to play on grass, when you have only played on turf all year). Calvin goes as Olson/Twigg go, so it will be interesting to see the defensive tactics that Kris Grahn puts into place to minimize the impact. Similarly, North Park is at it's best when Olsen/Ericsson are allowed space in the midfield to attack. When that space is tightened up and team's play physical with them, it tends to lead to the ball being stagnant and NP becomes ineffective. I expect this game to be up and down the pitch, quite entertaining for the fans. One key factor will be the health of 2 NP players (GK-Stuhlen and F-Khoury). Khoury went down in the first half and didn't return. Stuhlen went out before OT and didn't return. The one part of the field where NP seems to lack depth is up top, so it will be critical for them that Khoury is able to go. I think it goes one of two ways, either Calvin scores early and wins big (3-0) or NP wins a 2-1 or 1-0 game. My gut is telling me the latter, so from a prediction perspective, I will take an NP win 2-1 in regular time.
This sets up a unique battle between NP and OWU, as you have a first year head coach going up against a legend. I think NP has a pace advantage, especially on the wings, and will be able to create quality scoring chances. I like NP winning this one 2-0 and heading back to Greensboro for the 2nd time in 3 years.
... and it's stuff like that that makes me hope Wheaton never catches OWU. They keep trying to kill NPU with kindness. ;)
Seriously, though, having watched each of the three other teams in the sectional already, I think that GoThunder1's assessment is fair. Still, I like the idea of NPU staying under the radar. Aside from GoThunder1, nobody has taken the Vikings seriously yet, and that's a trend of which I approve. Yeah, a bunch of people predicted that NPU would reach the Sweet Sixteen, but I get the impression that it was more of a default pick than anything else for a lot of people who took Gustavus, Pacific Lutheran, and Colorado College even less seriously.
Quote from: TyWebb on November 18, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate).
PN, I have been trying to find the video without success as well. MaturinNYC, if you have a link to the video of the Kenyon v. UR game it would be appreciated.
Perspective. Been on the pitch since I was 8. New Yorker gone west to play college ball at U of Dayton. Reffed for 30 years - HS, College, USSF. Now 62 years old.
Stood with the Kenyon fans both days. Met Sean again and Muther's dad. First half - I made a comment about #27 for UR - both of these guys turned and said the same : the kid is killing it today. At the ten minute mark of the first half - not a single whistle for a foul. Sean - the Scotsman says: "Is that good or bad?" I said - compared to the two officials the previous day - this was great. The boys hadn't given the CR much reason to intervene - let them play.
UR gets a goal against the run of play off a corner. It happens. Second half I watched from the 18 to the goal line - moving as much as the AR over the same territory. I saw one cross kiss the crossbar that may not have been perceptible to the video. I saw Kenyon miss two grade A chances - clear cut goals except for final touches.
OT. The scramble in front of Kenyon's goal was a million miles away from me - no perspective to offer. But the play leading up to the PK call was right in front of me. Muther attacked - #27 lost his footing - attempted to plant his feet and you could hear his studs desperately trying to hold their position - but he fell forward and his arm touched the ball.
Referees are challenged annually during recertification with many scenarios to consider. One constant is: "what is fair?" It varies game by game. But once you - the ref - set the standard for the game - be consistent. This CR allowed them to play until that PK call. Regardless of the micro-analysis of "that play" - the just call for this game, for the way the CR officiated the game to this point: no penalty.
Quote from: TyWebb on November 18, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate).
PN, I have been trying to find the video without success as well. MaturinNYC, if you have a link to the video of the Kenyon v. UR game it would be appreciated.
Sorry i can't share the video (it's on a pw-protected archive of the UofR games) - but I believe Kenyon's video of the game is available with a subscription (an "On Demand" section of their site)? Maybe a Kenyon fan who has a video subscription can share their clip from it? I guess i can try and share stills of the moment - i'll try that.
But before i do let me say that Kenyon did nothing wrong here - of course they would claim a foul when there's suspected contact in the box, who wouldn't?!?! And absolutely #15's dribble attack into the area gets credit, as does Kenyon's free kick that equalized the game in the 76th minute. I've said this elsewhere, but let me repeat - it was a great NCAA playoff game that saw two solid teams giving their all and then giving even more. My only criticism is that this exciting, thrilling game got cut short by the official who, i believe, made a mistake in awarding a golden goal penalty on what was at worst incidental contact or chest/shoulder on a player falling down. It happens. That's not Kenyon's fault (also full credit to the kid who converted the PK, talk about pressure). So please do not take this as a UofR fan throwing shade like a sore loser. Kenyon won, i heard and saw that their players and ours showed great appreciation and respect for each other, and i wish them well. I just also wish that the game was decided in a manner fit for the moment and the quality of both of the teams playing it.
OK, so with that disclaimer, here's some screenshots.
Sorry, apparently this has to be a one-image-per-post thing, so here goes:
#15 White (Kenyon) has dribbled into the area and #27 Blue (Rochester) has started to slide - stopping the cross (the ball is under #27's left leg at this point)
Sorry all, but i could only load that one pic it seems. I'm well within the limits (jpg, under 500kb, each pic is only 50kb or so) -- anyone know what i'm doing wrong? Can an admin help? I've got 4 more pics. But it's late and it's a work night so i'll try again in the AM.
Cristan, can someone fix the Tournament Central page? It's stuck on 2018.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2019, 09:42:34 AM
Cristan, can someone fix the Tournament Central page? It's stuck on 2018.
Fixed.
The 2019 page was always there and accessible from the pull-down menus, but the headline on the home page was linking to last year's page thanks to yours truly. Sorry about that. Note to self: ALWAYS test the headlines and links you create.
#retirementcalls #bringinfreshblood
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 19, 2019, 10:08:35 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 19, 2019, 09:42:34 AM
Cristan, can someone fix the Tournament Central page? It's stuck on 2018.
Fixed.
The 2019 page was always there and accessible from the pull-down menus, but the headline on the home page was linking to last year's page thanks to yours truly. Sorry about that. Note to self: ALWAYS test the headlines and links you create. #retirementcalls #bringinfreshblood
LOL. Thanks as always.
BTW, Christan, if that was you running the d3soocer.com online scoreboard this past weekend, thanks for the shout-out. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 18, 2019, 11:22:01 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: RollToms on November 17, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: RollToms on November 13, 2019, 01:37:39 PM
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Wow. What a weekend of soccer. Hate to be that guy that quotes his own correct prediction, but I'm going to be that guy for a sec because I want to make a point. I think many just assumed that Chicago would be a contender, because, well it's Chicago. Let this be a reminder that just because a team has legacy, does not mean that that legacy will shine through each year. I think there are some schools that people automatically assume will contend, and they largely have earned the right to have that assumption made, but remember that each year it's a new team, and that teams should be judged on what they did during the year (as is protocol for selection committee) not what they have done in years prior. Some people may not like this comment, but I think many know it's true whether or not they like it.
BTW, take nothing away from the performance of OWU and one of the best coaches in college soccer, Jay Martin. OWU looks hungry.
I think I follow your point and your caveat at the end is appreciated, but just because a team loses or is upset doesn't necessarily mean they were overrated.
This.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMI mean, come on, Chicago was undefeated (7-0-0) in one of the two top conferences in the country and DID NOT ALLOW A SINGLE GOAL. They looked to be in decent shape versus OWU for much of the game too. OWU has said they made some adjustments, but the game really turned once OWU scored to draw even. That happened late enough for OWU to get a burst of momentum that led to a go-ahead goal and then Chicago just didn't have much time to respond. I'm sure the Maroons were shell-shocked at the final whistle wondering what had just happened to them. And it does take away from OWU's gutsy win to suggest that Chicago wasn't really that good.
This, too.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMThere rightfully is a lot of focus on Tufts and Messiah, but OWU has done this NCAA thing a couple of times....a record 41 NCAA appearances to be exact, and the Battling Bishops are unlikely to ever be eclipsed on that measure.
From your mouth to God's ear, 'cause Wheaton's in second place behind OWU with 36 appearances, and I don't like the implication for NPU of Wheaton being able to make up that five-appearances deficit. ;)
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 18, 2019, 01:19:44 PMThe nightcap (or daycap in this case) puts the last 2 national runner-ups against each other, as Calvin takes on the home side, North Park. Obviously, NP caught a significant break with Chicago bowing out - allowing them the chance to host this Pod. However, I don't think it will change the outcome of the game, as every team is comfortable on turf (compared to having to play on grass, when you have only played on turf all year). Calvin goes as Olson/Twigg go, so it will be interesting to see the defensive tactics that Kris Grahn puts into place to minimize the impact. Similarly, North Park is at it's best when Olsen/Ericsson are allowed space in the midfield to attack. When that space is tightened up and team's play physical with them, it tends to lead to the ball being stagnant and NP becomes ineffective. I expect this game to be up and down the pitch, quite entertaining for the fans. One key factor will be the health of 2 NP players (GK-Stuhlen and F-Khoury). Khoury went down in the first half and didn't return. Stuhlen went out before OT and didn't return. The one part of the field where NP seems to lack depth is up top, so it will be critical for them that Khoury is able to go. I think it goes one of two ways, either Calvin scores early and wins big (3-0) or NP wins a 2-1 or 1-0 game. My gut is telling me the latter, so from a prediction perspective, I will take an NP win 2-1 in regular time.
This sets up a unique battle between NP and OWU, as you have a first year head coach going up against a legend. I think NP has a pace advantage, especially on the wings, and will be able to create quality scoring chances. I like NP winning this one 2-0 and heading back to Greensboro for the 2nd time in 3 years.
... and it's stuff like that that makes me hope Wheaton never catches OWU. They keep trying to kill NPU with kindness. ;)
Seriously, though, having watched each of the three other teams in the sectional already, I think that GoThunder1's assessment is fair. Still, I like the idea of NPU staying under the radar. Aside from GoThunder1, nobody has taken the Vikings seriously yet, and that's a trend of which I approve. Yeah, a bunch of people predicted that NPU would reach the Sweet Sixteen, but I get the impression that it was more of a default pick than anything else for a lot of people who took Gustavus, Pacific Lutheran, and Colorado College even less seriously.
Here's the thing with Chicago that people seemed to forget when they were claiming "Final 4 contender" or "overrated" in the lead-up to NCAAs and then the loss: you gotta keep this all in perspective.
The Maroons lost about 75-80 percent of their goals scored from last year. They graduated the best group of players in the HISTORY of the program, including 3 All-Americans (Lopez, Koh, Capotosto). When Lopez and Koh got dinged up at points last year, the offense really bogged down and showed how dependent they were on those guys to create. Lopez played the last month of the season on an injured ankle, which really manifested in the Calvin game. They also changed their whole coaching staff, although having Flinn back made the transition smoother.
With all those factors plus the toughest SOS in the country coming into this season, I was more concerned about the Maroons even making the tournament at all. If things broke bad, they coulda been a .500 team.
There were 7 freshmen or sophomores starting regularly/semi-regularly this season, and early on it showed with the lack of results and some disappointing ties in games that they controlled for the most part (Rowan, Wheaton, Macalester). The offense could create but it struggled to finish. The defense was solid and organized.
But the North Park game is what sold me on their potential. NPU looked like a world beater in their debut and then scored a wide open goal in the opening minutes when the whole defense got caught ball watching. But as the game went on, it grew more and more one-sided and UC took advantage of their opportunities to win 3-1. That NPU is super skillful and could make a deep run again this year (I think they're better than the team that made the title game the year UC got hosed by the offsides that wasn't). And the Maroons showed that skill would not be a problem for them. Only experience.
So the fact they got a rough opening pod draw and lost to a motivated OWU side shouldn't be the shocker some claim. It surely shocked the players, who felt they were rolling at that time of the season. But the Maroons should feel pretty great about these season. They coalesced and achieved a lot faster than anyone would have predicted. No one is going to make the Final 4 every year, soccer is a fickle sport.
The future is bright for the Maroons, and they may reach those heights again. Or they may not. Everyone needs to just keep it all in perspective.
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 18, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
Kind of ironic that both UAA teams lost to NCAC teams, the turning point in both games very tough PK's. Tried to see what happened in the OWU game - the alleged foul was far enough away from the under served ball in. Got to be more of a significant chance negated by a foul for me to whistle that one. But that seemed to change the energy in the game - UC no excuses on the second goal, got caught pressing for an equalizer on the third.
But the deciding PK in the Kenyon game - wow. #27 for UR was having a MOTM game - several Kenyon fans said the same. Second half I was stationed on the fence at the attacking end for Kenyon - oh the chances they missed! #27 loses his footing, falls chest-first on the ball, ball touches his arm. I was 10 yards away - harshest decision - still not sure it meets the current criteria for handling. But the gentlemanly way he accepted the decision - unheard of in this era. My heart goes out to him. Class act in the face of such a decision.
Amended after finding the exact passage from the IFAB changes to handling, March 2019: (page 16: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/791/171520_110319_IFAB_LoG_changes_and_clarifications.pdf)
"Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
•directly from the player's own head or body (including the foot)
•directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
•when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"
A little late to comment on this. The foul in the OWU-CHI game was committed on #15 for OWU. From what I was told, and saw on the video, the Chicago player wrapped his right arm around the shoulder of #15 and pulled him down, and fell on top of him. I was told that the Chicago player was holding all game.
Kenyon, to their credit does not let up. The game is not over until the final whistle blows. Kenyon makes their own luck, as we have seen with many a last second or half-second goals over the last year. Respect to any team who makes their own opportunity, even if it seems like "luck" to others.
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 19, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Saw bits and pieces - but a good portion of it. Two of the variables I commented on materialized in this game: inability to score from the run of play (over-reliance on set-piece goals); and opponents being able to get behind the midfielders to run at the back four. Twice Centre was able to send through-balls past the midfield to Garuba and he created the first goal, scored the third as a result.
Towards the end of the game it was apparent how little attacking prowess they possessed. JCU will see many of the key players from this team return next year - and JCU West - St. Ignatius - won the DI State title, which has been a good source of players who don't go NCAA DI.
May be interesting to see which teams advance this weekend. Some of the teams that made it this upcoming weekend can defend AND attack. The "defend and wait for counters or set pieces" teams - wonder how they'll do?
Quote from: blue_jays on November 19, 2019, 06:24:54 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 18, 2019, 11:22:01 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: RollToms on November 17, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Quote from: RollToms on November 13, 2019, 01:37:39 PM
Not sure I fall in line with the seeming consensus that Chicago is a contender this year. I understand the legacy and recent success etc.. but looking at their record this year (11-1-5), they played out to 5 draws and a loss. That loss came to Calvin, and most of the draws (bar maybe Carthage) came against very respectable programs who are all discussed in the national perspective, so at first glance not a lot to worry about. But, this is the national tournament, so at this point you are playing programs of that high caliber almost strictly. Chicago is no exception w/ potential 2nd round matchup with winner of OWU and Hope and beyond. The seeming inability of Chicago to find that winning goal in overtime, at least in a decent # of games vs respected opponents, could come back to bite them in the tournament. As we all know, a shootout is not about who the better team is whatsoever. If Chicago gets into a penalty shootout, anything could happen.
Wow. What a weekend of soccer. Hate to be that guy that quotes his own correct prediction, but I'm going to be that guy for a sec because I want to make a point. I think many just assumed that Chicago would be a contender, because, well it's Chicago. Let this be a reminder that just because a team has legacy, does not mean that that legacy will shine through each year. I think there are some schools that people automatically assume will contend, and they largely have earned the right to have that assumption made, but remember that each year it's a new team, and that teams should be judged on what they did during the year (as is protocol for selection committee) not what they have done in years prior. Some people may not like this comment, but I think many know it's true whether or not they like it.
BTW, take nothing away from the performance of OWU and one of the best coaches in college soccer, Jay Martin. OWU looks hungry.
I think I follow your point and your caveat at the end is appreciated, but just because a team loses or is upset doesn't necessarily mean they were overrated.
This.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMI mean, come on, Chicago was undefeated (7-0-0) in one of the two top conferences in the country and DID NOT ALLOW A SINGLE GOAL. They looked to be in decent shape versus OWU for much of the game too. OWU has said they made some adjustments, but the game really turned once OWU scored to draw even. That happened late enough for OWU to get a burst of momentum that led to a go-ahead goal and then Chicago just didn't have much time to respond. I'm sure the Maroons were shell-shocked at the final whistle wondering what had just happened to them. And it does take away from OWU's gutsy win to suggest that Chicago wasn't really that good.
This, too.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 18, 2019, 09:48:40 AMThere rightfully is a lot of focus on Tufts and Messiah, but OWU has done this NCAA thing a couple of times....a record 41 NCAA appearances to be exact, and the Battling Bishops are unlikely to ever be eclipsed on that measure.
From your mouth to God's ear, 'cause Wheaton's in second place behind OWU with 36 appearances, and I don't like the implication for NPU of Wheaton being able to make up that five-appearances deficit. ;)
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 18, 2019, 01:19:44 PMThe nightcap (or daycap in this case) puts the last 2 national runner-ups against each other, as Calvin takes on the home side, North Park. Obviously, NP caught a significant break with Chicago bowing out - allowing them the chance to host this Pod. However, I don't think it will change the outcome of the game, as every team is comfortable on turf (compared to having to play on grass, when you have only played on turf all year). Calvin goes as Olson/Twigg go, so it will be interesting to see the defensive tactics that Kris Grahn puts into place to minimize the impact. Similarly, North Park is at it's best when Olsen/Ericsson are allowed space in the midfield to attack. When that space is tightened up and team's play physical with them, it tends to lead to the ball being stagnant and NP becomes ineffective. I expect this game to be up and down the pitch, quite entertaining for the fans. One key factor will be the health of 2 NP players (GK-Stuhlen and F-Khoury). Khoury went down in the first half and didn't return. Stuhlen went out before OT and didn't return. The one part of the field where NP seems to lack depth is up top, so it will be critical for them that Khoury is able to go. I think it goes one of two ways, either Calvin scores early and wins big (3-0) or NP wins a 2-1 or 1-0 game. My gut is telling me the latter, so from a prediction perspective, I will take an NP win 2-1 in regular time.
This sets up a unique battle between NP and OWU, as you have a first year head coach going up against a legend. I think NP has a pace advantage, especially on the wings, and will be able to create quality scoring chances. I like NP winning this one 2-0 and heading back to Greensboro for the 2nd time in 3 years.
... and it's stuff like that that makes me hope Wheaton never catches OWU. They keep trying to kill NPU with kindness. ;)
Seriously, though, having watched each of the three other teams in the sectional already, I think that GoThunder1's assessment is fair. Still, I like the idea of NPU staying under the radar. Aside from GoThunder1, nobody has taken the Vikings seriously yet, and that's a trend of which I approve. Yeah, a bunch of people predicted that NPU would reach the Sweet Sixteen, but I get the impression that it was more of a default pick than anything else for a lot of people who took Gustavus, Pacific Lutheran, and Colorado College even less seriously.
Here's the thing with Chicago that people seemed to forget when they were claiming "Final 4 contender" or "overrated" in the lead-up to NCAAs and then the loss: you gotta keep this all in perspective.
The Maroons lost about 75-80 percent of their goals scored from last year. They graduated the best group of players in the HISTORY of the program, including 3 All-Americans (Lopez, Koh, Capotosto). When Lopez and Koh got dinged up at points last year, the offense really bogged down and showed how dependent they were on those guys to create. Lopez played the last month of the season on an injured ankle, which really manifested in the Calvin game. They also changed their whole coaching staff, although having Flinn back made the transition smoother.
With all those factors plus the toughest SOS in the country coming into this season, I was more concerned about the Maroons even making the tournament at all. If things broke bad, they coulda been a .500 team.
There were 7 freshmen or sophomores starting regularly/semi-regularly this season, and early on it showed with the lack of results and some disappointing ties in games that they controlled for the most part (Rowan, Wheaton, Macalester). The offense could create but it struggled to finish. The defense was solid and organized.
But the North Park game is what sold me on their potential. NPU looked like a world beater in their debut and then scored a wide open goal in the opening minutes when the whole defense got caught ball watching. But as the game went on, it grew more and more one-sided and UC took advantage of their opportunities to win 3-1. That NPU is super skillful and could make a deep run again this year (I think they're better than the team that made the title game the year UC got hosed by the offsides that wasn't). And the Maroons showed that skill would not be a problem for them. Only experience.
So the fact they got a rough opening pod draw and lost to a motivated OWU side shouldn't be the shocker some claim. It surely shocked the players, who felt they were rolling at that time of the season. But the Maroons should feel pretty great about these season. They coalesced and achieved a lot faster than anyone would have predicted. No one is going to make the Final 4 every year, soccer is a fickle sport.
The future is bright for the Maroons, and they may reach those heights again. Or they may not. Everyone needs to just keep it all in perspective.
I don't disagree with this at all. In the game vs wheaton, UC really struggled in the final 3rd. Obviously, they were rock solid in the back - but once it got into the final 3rd things went stagnant. I didn't catch the UC/NP game, but based on your comments - they are similar to what occurred in the NP/WC game. NP may have the most skillful midfield in the country, but they are similar to UC in the fact that during their "bigger" games, they have seemed to struggle offensively. To be fair, they also play a 4-5-1 and have built up their attack in the midfield, so that should be noted. I agree that this NP team is more skillful than their 2017 team, however that team had a rock in the back (Ricky Pimentel), which this team lacks. Ricky (who I believe me be a coach now) is arguably one of the best CB's in conference history.
I predicted NP to win this matchup with Calvin prior to the start of the tourney, so I will stick by it - however, I can definitely see it going either way. 2 really good teams, should be a great battle.
To be more clear, the "bigger" games I am referring to in my comment above are:
Rowan
UC
K'Zoo
Wheaton
Gustavus
Excellent Sectional Previews per usual.
I saw on the Conn College website that this is only the 4th time ANY sports team from Conn has made a "Sweet 16." 4th Sweet 16 for the entire school. Not sure why that surprised me given the overall dominance in athletics of several other NESCACs over the years, but at any rate that factoid tells me how big of a moment/opportunity is sitting there for Conn. I know Swat is at home but I expect Conn to find a way to advance. I watched most of the 2nd half of Conn-JHU and I was surprised to see how much crafty, dynamic and sustained pressure the Camels put on JHU, one of the title favorites. Marcucci can win games almost by himself but the offensive abilities that I saw make Conn a true threat. I am giving W&L a decent shot (maybe 30/70) to knock off Tufts, but the Jumbos likely will prevail as they are probably the most resourceful team in the country when it comes to finding various ways to win. As I believe has been noted before, facing Tufts ever is a problem, but facing them with no prior direct experience is an even bigger problem (although playing and beating Brandeis might help a little). Tufts is not only really good, but they have loads of confidence, expect and almost seem to feel entitled to win the next 10 NCAA titles in a row, and they are HUGE. Keeping Braun and Rojas off the scoresheet is no easy task and most D3 teams are just not prepared for or equipped to handle everything that the Jumbos can throw at you over 90 minutes. And then there are Tasker, Lane, van Brewer (who quietly may be one of the best midfielders in the nation), and then about 10-12 other players very capable of snaring a goal in a tight game. Talent, D1 size, depth, belief, expectation, and desire to win again...tough to beat. All that said, Conn DOES know Tufts as well as any other potential opponent. They should be able to just play Tufts instead of Tufts + the Tufts' aura. Again, Tufts will likely prevail, but I give the Camels maybe a 40/60 chance. Ironically, I might like Conn's chances more versus Tufts than W&L. If W&L knocked off Tufts I might favor them over Conn based on the momentum high but also maybe a small letdown from Conn exhaling too strongly about avoiding the Jumbos.
In the other previewed sectional, OWU should advance after more than surviving their Hope pod gauntlet in very impressive fashion, but the danger will be having just enough of a small letdown to allow Luther to gain an advantage. In Great Lakes/NCAC terminology OWU needs to play like they are facing a Kenyon instead of a Wabash. OWU needs their play, intensity and focus to keep rising as they hope to reach a date with what will be another heavyweight in either Calvin or North Park. I have no clue what to expect with Calvin versus North Park. Based on talent, North Park imo should have at least a 50/50 chance, but they will have to show up from the opening whistle and have a pretty flawless game to the finish. A bit like Tufts, it's hard to think Calvin is gonna lose a match in this kind of spot. If Calvin advances there are few teams in the country better prepared for Calvin than OWU. I might pick OWU to nip Calvin while falling short in a close one if it's North Park. Now watch Luther advance to the Final Four. A very intriguing, and potentially very entertaining and dramatic sectional.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 20, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 19, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Saw bits and pieces - but a good portion of it. Two of the variables I commented on materialized in this game: inability to score from the run of play (over-reliance on set-piece goals); and opponents being able to get behind the midfielders to run at the back four. Twice Centre was able to send through-balls past the midfield to Garuba and he created the first goal, scored the third as a result.
Towards the end of the game it was apparent how little attacking prowess they possessed. JCU will see many of the key players from this team return next year - and JCU West - St. Ignatius - won the DI State title, which has been a good source of players who don't go NCAA DI.
May be interesting to see which teams advance this weekend. Some of the teams that made it this upcoming weekend can defend AND attack. The "defend and wait for counters or set pieces" teams - wonder how they'll do?
Centre / Claremont seems to be a toss up. Do either have a chance of upsetting Kenyon, assuming the Lords advance?
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 19, 2019, 01:03:07 AM
Quote from: TyWebb on November 18, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate).
PN, I have been trying to find the video without success as well. MaturinNYC, if you have a link to the video of the Kenyon v. UR game it would be appreciated.
Sorry i can't share the video (it's on a pw-protected archive of the UofR games) - but I believe Kenyon's video of the game is available with a subscription (an "On Demand" section of their site)? Maybe a Kenyon fan who has a video subscription can share their clip from it? I guess i can try and share stills of the moment - i'll try that.
But before i do let me say that Kenyon did nothing wrong here - of course they would claim a foul when there's suspected contact in the box, who wouldn't?!?! And absolutely #15's dribble attack into the area gets credit, as does Kenyon's free kick that equalized the game in the 76th minute. I've said this elsewhere, but let me repeat - it was a great NCAA playoff game that saw two solid teams giving their all and then giving even more. My only criticism is that this exciting, thrilling game got cut short by the official who, i believe, made a mistake in awarding a golden goal penalty on what was at worst incidental contact or chest/shoulder on a player falling down. It happens. That's not Kenyon's fault (also full credit to the kid who converted the PK, talk about pressure). So please do not take this as a UofR fan throwing shade like a sore loser. Kenyon won, i heard and saw that their players and ours showed great appreciation and respect for each other, and i wish them well. I just also wish that the game was decided in a manner fit for the moment and the quality of both of the teams playing it.
OK, so with that disclaimer, here's some screenshots.
I can't post the images here (i've reached out to Admin but no answer), so instead you can view 5 grainy screen grabs here -- sorry it's the best i can do! And again, just want to say this is for the benefit of those who have asked to see the play - the facts are what they are.
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZD3YLr1
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 20, 2019, 09:45:00 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 19, 2019, 06:24:54 PM
Here's the thing with Chicago that people seemed to forget when they were claiming "Final 4 contender" or "overrated" in the lead-up to NCAAs and then the loss: you gotta keep this all in perspective.
The Maroons lost about 75-80 percent of their goals scored from last year. They graduated the best group of players in the HISTORY of the program, including 3 All-Americans (Lopez, Koh, Capotosto). When Lopez and Koh got dinged up at points last year, the offense really bogged down and showed how dependent they were on those guys to create. Lopez played the last month of the season on an injured ankle, which really manifested in the Calvin game. They also changed their whole coaching staff, although having Flinn back made the transition smoother.
With all those factors plus the toughest SOS in the country coming into this season, I was more concerned about the Maroons even making the tournament at all. If things broke bad, they coulda been a .500 team.
There were 7 freshmen or sophomores starting regularly/semi-regularly this season, and early on it showed with the lack of results and some disappointing ties in games that they controlled for the most part (Rowan, Wheaton, Macalester). The offense could create but it struggled to finish. The defense was solid and organized.
But the North Park game is what sold me on their potential. NPU looked like a world beater in their debut and then scored a wide open goal in the opening minutes when the whole defense got caught ball watching. But as the game went on, it grew more and more one-sided and UC took advantage of their opportunities to win 3-1. That NPU is super skillful and could make a deep run again this year (I think they're better than the team that made the title game the year UC got hosed by the offsides that wasn't). And the Maroons showed that skill would not be a problem for them. Only experience.
So the fact they got a rough opening pod draw and lost to a motivated OWU side shouldn't be the shocker some claim. It surely shocked the players, who felt they were rolling at that time of the season. But the Maroons should feel pretty great about these season. They coalesced and achieved a lot faster than anyone would have predicted. No one is going to make the Final 4 every year, soccer is a fickle sport.
The future is bright for the Maroons, and they may reach those heights again. Or they may not. Everyone needs to just keep it all in perspective.
I don't disagree with this at all. In the game vs wheaton, UC really struggled in the final 3rd. Obviously, they were rock solid in the back - but once it got into the final 3rd things went stagnant.
I watched that game. I don't disagree that Chicago didn't manufacture a lot of scoring opportunities, but the ones that they had were good. Wheaton GK Hasten Biddlecome made two or three highlight-reel saves in that game.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 20, 2019, 09:45:00 AMI didn't catch the UC/NP game, but based on your comments - they are similar to what occurred in the NP/WC game.
I had to call a women's volleyball tournament at North Park that day, so I didn't see NPU @ UC and I can't speak as to why the Vikings couldn't score beyond the game's initial goal. But multiple people who
did see it -- including one of the coaches -- told me that the onus for the defeat was upon NPU's brand-new and very young backline. Chicago may have had to summon up a whole new crew of attackers to oppose them in the wake of the graduation of Lopez, Koh, and Adeosun, but they were more up to the challenge than NPU's new backline was.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 20, 2019, 09:45:00 AMNP may have the most skillful midfield in the country, but they are similar to UC in the fact that during their "bigger" games, they have seemed to struggle offensively. To be fair, they also play a 4-5-1 and have built up their attack in the midfield, so that should be noted. I agree that this NP team is more skillful than their 2017 team, however that team had a rock in the back (Ricky Pimentel), which this team lacks. Ricky (who I believe me be a coach now) is arguably one of the best CB's in conference history.
Ricky Pimentel is indeed a graduate assistant coach at NPU; for obvious reasons, he works with the backliners. But there was more to that 2017 backline than just Ricky. The Vikings also had a big and skilled CB in Gustav Leander to complement Ricky, although Big Goose's mobility was curtailed by his recently-healed broken leg (he didn't play until the CCIW tournament that season); one of the most explosive right backs around in Jason Gonzalez; and a left back in Kyle Robson who was then in his third year of four that were all spent as a starter for the Vikings.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 20, 2019, 09:45:00 AMI predicted NP to win this matchup with Calvin prior to the start of the tourney, so I will stick by it - however, I can definitely see it going either way. 2 really good teams, should be a great battle.
I'm looking forward to calling it. The Calvin program under Ryan Souders has earned the respect of everybody who follows D3 men's soccer, and nobody from NPU begrudges that. I think that people around NPU are well aware that the Vikings are a definite underdog. I also know that the NPU players and coaches are not lacking for confidence in themselves.
Here's d3soccer.com's very comprehensive preview for the sectional being held at NPU. (https://www.d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2019/men/sectional-previews/2019-mens-midwest-sectional-preview)
Just focusing on what I've observed, I don't see Swat beating Conn College. And I'd be shocked if W&L upsets Tufts. The Generals just seem prone to giving up soft goals, and with a team like Tufts staring you down... hoo boy. I actually think the Tufts-CC game would be pretty amazing, but I think the Camels might really struggle to generate any offense. They took a TON of shots against Hop, but 90 percent were more hopeful than dangerous.
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 20, 2019, 11:17:19 AM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 20, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 19, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Saw bits and pieces - but a good portion of it. Two of the variables I commented on materialized in this game: inability to score from the run of play (over-reliance on set-piece goals); and opponents being able to get behind the midfielders to run at the back four. Twice Centre was able to send through-balls past the midfield to Garuba and he created the first goal, scored the third as a result.
Towards the end of the game it was apparent how little attacking prowess they possessed. JCU will see many of the key players from this team return next year - and JCU West - St. Ignatius - won the DI State title, which has been a good source of players who don't go NCAA DI.
May be interesting to see which teams advance this weekend. Some of the teams that made it this upcoming weekend can defend AND attack. The "defend and wait for counters or set pieces" teams - wonder how they'll do?
Centre / Claremont seems to be a toss up. Do either have a chance of upsetting Kenyon, assuming the Lords advance?
What are
your thoughts?
Of course any of the four team could advance. Kenyon is good and at home (although the latter hasn't been enough in prior years). Montclair is very athletic, physical and skilled with a potent offense and guys capable of wonder strikes for goals. Centre has probably the hottest striker in the country and is on a roll especially considering how they dispatched a favored and very hungry JCU team at JCU. And C-M-S is the one West team that pretty much has stayed on the national radar all season. Beating Trinity at Trinity in a NCAA game (even if Trinity had a down year) is an impressive feat and C-M-S has its own All American.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2019, 12:23:42 PM
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 20, 2019, 11:17:19 AM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 20, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 19, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Saw bits and pieces - but a good portion of it. Two of the variables I commented on materialized in this game: inability to score from the run of play (over-reliance on set-piece goals); and opponents being able to get behind the midfielders to run at the back four. Twice Centre was able to send through-balls past the midfield to Garuba and he created the first goal, scored the third as a result.
Towards the end of the game it was apparent how little attacking prowess they possessed. JCU will see many of the key players from this team return next year - and JCU West - St. Ignatius - won the DI State title, which has been a good source of players who don't go NCAA DI.
May be interesting to see which teams advance this weekend. Some of the teams that made it this upcoming weekend can defend AND attack. The "defend and wait for counters or set pieces" teams - wonder how they'll do?
Centre / Claremont seems to be a toss up. Do either have a chance of upsetting Kenyon, assuming the Lords advance?
What are your thoughts?
Of course any of the four team could advance. Kenyon is good and at home (although the latter hasn't been enough in prior years). Montclair is very athletic, physical and skilled with a potent offense and guys capable of wonder strikes for goals. Centre has probably the hottest striker in the country and is on a roll especially considering how they dispatched a favored and very hungry JCU team at JCU. And C-M-S is the one West team that pretty much has stayed on the national radar all season. Beating Trinity at Trinity in a NCAA game (even if Trinity had a down year) is an impressive feat and C-M-S has its own All American.
I haven't seen much of any of the teams.
Centre's Garuba may be one of the most talented players in D3 soccer (19 goals last year, 22 and counting this year). Judging from social media, most of his goals are fantastic individual efforts. And it looks like they have a decent & consistent supporting cast. Don't seem particularly deep, but if they defend well and find Garuba, then it seems like he'll at least get a few opportunities to create and/or score. That's a dangerous recipe in the tourney.
Don't know enough about C-M-S, but beating Trinity away is a tough ask. Looks like either C-M-S or Centre can win the game and get a surprise berth to the Elite 8.
Montclair St, when I last saw them, had talent, but were very undisciplined. Can't see them beating Kenyon, who if they (Kenyon) are the same as in the past, are organized, disciplined, with the talent to match/exceed Montclair St.
Quick look at past results, Kenyon have dominated Centre since 2012. It looks like Centre has only 1 result during that time span and the teams have played almost every year. Looking at the result in the regular season game, it seems like a decently even game but Kenyon just better.
History seems to indicate that Kenyon has the edge.
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 20, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 19, 2019, 01:03:07 AM
Quote from: TyWebb on November 18, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: MaturinNYC on November 18, 2019, 05:39:45 PM
But i wanted to see it again in video just to ensure my partisan eyes weren't blind. And having just watched it in slow motion, that impression stands. It just simply isn't a penalty in any league/contest i've seen. And certainly not a golden-goal penalty in OT of a really good, exciting NCAA knockout game. The contact is almost all on his chest (imagine falling from a pushup position over a ball centered under your breast plate).
PN, I have been trying to find the video without success as well. MaturinNYC, if you have a link to the video of the Kenyon v. UR game it would be appreciated.
Sorry i can't share the video (it's on a pw-protected archive of the UofR games) - but I believe Kenyon's video of the game is available with a subscription (an "On Demand" section of their site)? Maybe a Kenyon fan who has a video subscription can share their clip from it? I guess i can try and share stills of the moment - i'll try that.
But before i do let me say that Kenyon did nothing wrong here - of course they would claim a foul when there's suspected contact in the box, who wouldn't?!?! And absolutely #15's dribble attack into the area gets credit, as does Kenyon's free kick that equalized the game in the 76th minute. I've said this elsewhere, but let me repeat - it was a great NCAA playoff game that saw two solid teams giving their all and then giving even more. My only criticism is that this exciting, thrilling game got cut short by the official who, i believe, made a mistake in awarding a golden goal penalty on what was at worst incidental contact or chest/shoulder on a player falling down. It happens. That's not Kenyon's fault (also full credit to the kid who converted the PK, talk about pressure). So please do not take this as a UofR fan throwing shade like a sore loser. Kenyon won, i heard and saw that their players and ours showed great appreciation and respect for each other, and i wish them well. I just also wish that the game was decided in a manner fit for the moment and the quality of both of the teams playing it.
OK, so with that disclaimer, here's some screenshots.
I can't post the images here (i've reached out to Admin but no answer), so instead you can view 5 grainy screen grabs here -- sorry it's the best i can do! And again, just want to say this is for the benefit of those who have asked to see the play - the facts are what they are.
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZD3YLr1
Would like to see it in real-time, but from the description and pics I do not think this is handling in any sense... just unfortunate. Did referees have open mics? discussion with AR? or was decision immediate?
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 20, 2019, 03:01:37 PM
Would like to see it in real-time, but from the description and pics I do not think this is handling in any sense... just unfortunate. Did referees have open mics? discussion with AR? or was decision immediate?
It was immediate, no flag from the AR - and just guessing from his reactions afterwards (two quick yellows - one to a UR player on the field and one to the UR bench) he may have regretted it. Or he may not have, the home crowd certainly appreciated it! But all i can say is that having seen the game, knowing the moment, and knowing the IFAB rules - "It is, however, considered natural for a player to put their arm between their body and the ground for support when falling, so long as the arm is not extended to make the body bigger." - the right call should have been to "play on". However he was a human and sadly the NCAA doesn't yet have VAR, so here's another tale to tell about the game we all love.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 20, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Quote from: scoutteam1 on November 19, 2019, 09:59:35 PM
Did anyone watch the JCU game? Seemed like they were contenders since they were ranked #1 in GL region.
Saw bits and pieces - but a good portion of it. Two of the variables I commented on materialized in this game: inability to score from the run of play (over-reliance on set-piece goals); and opponents being able to get behind the midfielders to run at the back four. Twice Centre was able to send through-balls past the midfield to Garuba and he created the first goal, scored the third as a result.
Towards the end of the game it was apparent how little attacking prowess they possessed. JCU will see many of the key players from this team return next year - and JCU West - St. Ignatius - won the DI State title, which has been a good source of players who don't go NCAA DI.
May be interesting to see which teams advance this weekend. Some of the teams that made it this upcoming weekend can defend AND attack. The "defend and wait for counters or set pieces" teams - wonder how they'll do?
I saw most of the JCU games this season (including this one) and agree with the assessment. Too much reliance on set-piece goals all season, not dangerous/efficient enough on the attacking end (goals-to-shots ratio was very poor this year). Also, too much reliance on general athleticism as well compared to area teams I feel do a better job of blending in good soccer talent (Kenyon, OWU... who are both, incidentally, still alive in the tournament).
Anybody have any insight on why Amherst is the only apparent top seed in a sectional playing the early game? It is possible any teams were given a choice and wanted to avoid playing so early in the day?
Host gets to choose even if they aren't "top" seed. Thats why tufts played the early game in the 2016 kenyon pod
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 20, 2019, 06:55:33 PM
Host gets to choose even if they aren't "top" seed. Thats why tufts played the early game in the 2016 kenyon pod
Actually, the Pre-Championships Manual (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/ncaa-publications/2019/2019-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf) says the following under "Start Times" in Section 2.1 (see the very top of of page 18):
At all sites, the match shown higher on the championship bracket will be the first match played. The match shown lower on
the championship bracket will be the second match played.And you will see this carried out if you look at the occasions where the "top seed" has not hosted, both this year and in the past. That's why Keene St., Oneonta St., Trinty (Tx.), Catholic, and Hope did not play the early game in the 1st/2nd Round pods. Do you think none of those five hosts wouldn't have taken the earlier game given the chance? Two years ago, when like this year the women had hosting priority the first weekend, Messiah still played the early game despite Buffalo St. hosting, likewise Oglethorpe having the early game at host Washington and Lee. Messiah still played the early game last year even after the sectional was moved to Rochester. Messiah also played the early game in the 2014 sectional at Muhlenberg. And Tufts hosted the sectional in 2016 because they were shown higher in the bracket having emerged form the pod with the quadrant's top seed.
Was just reviewing the team scoring statistics across D3. Here's what they look like this week:
Offense:
1 Bethany Lutheran 3.95
2 Oglethorpe 3.58
3 Gust. Adolphus 3.45
4 Wis.-Superior 3.43
5 PSU-B 3.29
6 Manhattanville 3.28
7 Pine Manor 3.24
8 Calvin 3.17
9 Eastern Conn. St. 3.15
10 Loras 3.05
Defense:
1 WPI .452
2 Ohio Wesleyan .500
3 St. Joseph's (ME) .503
4 Middlebury .503
5 Claremont-M-S .513
6 Chris. Newport .536
7 Messiah .579
8 Rose-Hulman .585
9 UMass Boston .602
10 Chicago .636
It's not hard to see which factor is more important for getting to the tournament and moving forward. Exceptions to this pattern are also obvious.
Not surprisingly, Bethany Lutheran has the #2 goal scorer, Max Busch (25), and the #3T assist man, Luuk Oosterbosch (16). Never saw them play, but the bigger picture is clear from this salient fact: they lost 6-0 last month to Wisconsin-Superior, obviously an excellent team that defeated Central before losing in PKs to Luther last weekend. They obviously got gaudy stats by feasting on turkeys.
Well, it looks like 6 of the top 10 offenses made the tournament and 6 of the top 10 defenses made the tournament, so that would hardly be considered "hard not to see". But looking at the Sweet 16, now there is just one top 10 offense and thee top 10 defenses which better supports what I think you are inferring: that having a top defense is more important than having a top offense. You'd make a stronger case if you expand to the Top 20. Then the tournament field contains 10 of the Top 20 offenses and 14 of the Top 25 defenses and the Sweet 16 has two of the Top 20 offense and six of the Top 20 defenses.
So offense wins games, defense wins championships? How long has that saying been around? Especially true in a low scoring sport like soccer.
Quote from: Falconer on November 21, 2019, 09:31:25 AMNot surprisingly, Bethany Lutheran has the #2 goal scorer, Max Busch (25), and the #3T assist man, Luuk Oosterbosch (16). Never saw them play, but the bigger picture is clear from this salient fact: they lost 6-0 last month to Wisconsin-Superior, obviously an excellent team that defeated Central before losing in PKs to Luther last weekend. They obviously got gaudy stats by feasting on turkeys.
Well, of course "obviously", given that Bethany Lutheran is a member of the UMAC -- a league that consists of an entire rafter of turkeys, aside from UW-Superior (and sometimes St. Scholastica). Play in a turkey league, feast on turkeys.
Bethany Lutheran's makeup is a far more interesting subject. Both of the high-flying scorers, Busch and Oosterbosch, are freshmen. They're also two of the 19 international players on the 34-man Bethany Lutheran roster. Eleven different countries are represented, and there's only eight Minnesotans on the entire BLC roster. That's one way to get around the MIAC stranglehold on good non-scholarship soccer players in the Land of 10,000 Lakes.
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
Quote from: Falconer on November 21, 2019, 09:31:25 AM
Was just reviewing the team scoring statistics across D3. Here's what they look like this week:
Offense:
1 Bethany Lutheran 3.95
2 Oglethorpe 3.58
3 Gust. Adolphus 3.45
4 Wis.-Superior 3.43
5 PSU-B 3.29
6 Manhattanville 3.28
7 Pine Manor 3.24
8 Calvin 3.17
9 Eastern Conn. St. 3.15
10 Loras 3.05
Defense:
1 WPI .452
2 Ohio Wesleyan .500
3 St. Joseph's (ME) .503
4 Middlebury .503
5 Claremont-M-S .513
6 Chris. Newport .536
7 Messiah .579
8 Rose-Hulman .585
9 UMass Boston .602
10 Chicago .636
It's not hard to see which factor is more important for getting to the tournament and moving forward. Exceptions to this pattern are also obvious.
Not surprisingly, Bethany Lutheran has the #2 goal scorer, Max Busch (25), and the #3T assist man, Luuk Oosterbosch (16). Never saw them play, but the bigger picture is clear from this salient fact: they lost 6-0 last month to Wisconsin-Superior, obviously an excellent team that defeated Central before losing in PKs to Luther last weekend. They obviously got gaudy stats by feasting on turkeys.
I'd suggest that the issue instead is that reliance on raw data provide less insight as to which teams have a good offense than as to who has a good defense. Here are Massey's top 10 offensive teams as of this moment (Sweet 16 teams in bold):
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Messiah5. Oglethorpe
6. Kenyon7. GAC
8. NPU
9. W&L10. Loras
Seven teams still in the tournament. (Bethany Lutheran is #157.)
And here are Massey's top 10 defensive teams:
1. Midd
2.
Conn College3. CNU
4. JHU
5.
CMS6. F&M
7.
Montclair St.8. WPI
9.
OWU10. Wesleyan
Only four of these teams in the Sweet 16.
Quote from: rudy on November 22, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
I agree both these games today are great matchups especially for the neutral. I have not seen any of these teams yet this season. Anyone know which team has the 6'6 striker with 20 goals? Luther...can this kid be the difference maker in this pod this weekend? On paper everything looks good.
Quote from: rudy on November 22, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
I'll settle for NPU winning in a walkover, but I'm not putting my money down on that happening. ;)
Greg,
Are you on the call today? I hope so, as you have done a tremendous job all year. Any news on Stuhlen or Khoury's injuries? In my opinion, Khoury is the bigger concern if he can't go - as I have been impressed by Sabovic in the limited action I have seen from him.
Best of luck today to your boys!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2019, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 22, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
I'll settle for NPU winning in a walkover, but I'm not putting my money down on that happening. ;)
Much less stressful to watch without any skin in the game. I have the same feeling about Messiah vs RPI tomorrow. I wouldn't be upset if it's 3-0 Messiah at half but not counting on it!
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 22, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
I agree both these games today are great matchups especially for the neutral. I have not seen any of these teams yet this season. Anyone know which team has the 6'6 striker with 20 goals? Luther...can this kid be the difference maker in this pod this weekend? On paper efverything looks good.
I know better than to look ahead but Messiah vs Amherst would be a much anticipated game Sunday. Hopefully it happens. Almost happened in 2017 at Messiah in elite 8 but ironically UR knocked out Amherst.. just like they knocked Messiah out last year to go to final 4. Quite a weekend ahead!
Quote from: Buck O. on November 22, 2019, 09:13:58 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 21, 2019, 09:31:25 AM
Was just reviewing the team scoring statistics across D3. Here's what they look like this week:
Offense:
1 Bethany Lutheran 3.95
2 Oglethorpe 3.58
3 Gust. Adolphus 3.45
4 Wis.-Superior 3.43
5 PSU-B 3.29
6 Manhattanville 3.28
7 Pine Manor 3.24
8 Calvin 3.17
9 Eastern Conn. St. 3.15
10 Loras 3.05
Defense:
1 WPI .452
2 Ohio Wesleyan .500
3 St. Joseph's (ME) .503
4 Middlebury .503
5 Claremont-M-S .513
6 Chris. Newport .536
7 Messiah .579
8 Rose-Hulman .585
9 UMass Boston .602
10 Chicago .636
It's not hard to see which factor is more important for getting to the tournament and moving forward. Exceptions to this pattern are also obvious.
Not surprisingly, Bethany Lutheran has the #2 goal scorer, Max Busch (25), and the #3T assist man, Luuk Oosterbosch (16). Never saw them play, but the bigger picture is clear from this salient fact: they lost 6-0 last month to Wisconsin-Superior, obviously an excellent team that defeated Central before losing in PKs to Luther last weekend. They obviously got gaudy stats by feasting on turkeys.
I'd suggest that the issue instead is that reliance on raw data provide less insight as to which teams have a good offense than as to who has a good defense. Here are Massey's top 10 offensive teams as of this moment (Sweet 16 teams in bold):
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Messiah
5. Oglethorpe
6. Kenyon
7. GAC
8. NPU
9. W&L
10. Loras
Seven teams still in the tournament. (Bethany Lutheran is #157.)
And here are Massey's top 10 defensive teams:
1. Midd
2. Conn College
3. CNU
4. JHU
5. CMS
6. F&M
7. Montclair St.
8. WPI
9. OWU
10. Wesleyan
Only four of these teams in the Sweet 16.
This! I got side-tracked and didn't get back to share my additional thoughts yesterday. But Buck O. has hit on it.
It is much more probable and common that the "better" lower-tier teams—weak teams that play in weak conferences with non-conference schedules full of lower-tier opponents—put up high scoring stats than that they post stingy defensive stats. It only takes a couple games to destroy your season GAA while conversely a few low-scoring outputs can easily be made up for with some blow-outs or high-scoring affairs. Consistency is much more crucial to achieving a low GAA, than to achieving a high GSA. Using the Bethany Lutheran example, they had 7 shutout wins this season, and scored between 4 and 10 goals in those games. Their 47 GF and 0 GA in those games yield 6.70 GSA : 0.00 GAA. But one 6-0 loss to UMAC-leader UW-Superior undoes the GAA, but not the GSA: 47 GF : 6 GA yields 5.87 GSA : 0.75 GAA.
Bottom line, as Buck O. was getting at, when you look at raw stats that aren't adjusted for strength-of-schedule, a list of top scoring offenses will contain significantly more middle- to lower-tier teams than a list of stingy defenses. A high-scoring offense does not necessarily equate to strong top-level offense. Sure, a low GAA doesn't necessarily equate to a strong top-level defense either, but there's a much greater chance of there being a correlation. So using the raw statistical rankings is a faulty basis for drawing any conclusions on whether offense or defense is more important for a deep NCAA tournament run.
Now, all that said, rarely is a team going to make a deep tournament run without a strong defense. And it is less likely you can go deep without a strong defense than without a strong offense. But, obviously, most teams that reach the Final Four are very good on both sides of the ball. Any exceptions to this are more likely to be strong defenses carrying a modest attack, not the other way around.
Luther an interesting team. Look to be in a 4-3-3 and try to possess with their wingbacks wide taking the space left by all 3 of their midfielders being central. The 3 midfielders look highly technical and play well together and then try to connect to the target or wide. OWU looks athletic and set piece / long ball oriented
As a Luther grad I've definitely got a favorite. Keller is an impressive striker and has been fun to watch whenever the Norse come to Dubuque for games. He deserves his gaudy numbers. He's not (usually) flashy but he's always dangerous, especially with that height. I haven't been as impressed with Luther overall this year but they will put up a fight.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 22, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
a couple of very interesting games today for sweet 16. Calvin and NP could be a final 4 level game.
I agree both these games today are great matchups especially for the neutral. I have not seen any of these teams yet this season. Anyone know which team has the 6'6 striker with 20 goals? Luther...can this kid be the difference maker in this pod this weekend? On paper everything looks good.
Luther actually in a 4-2-3-1 with the target but OWU has started to take control of the game as the Half has worn on. Luther opened the first 10 minutes looking good but they ran out of gas a bit. Both teams have had spurts and both teams with 1-2 dangerous chances. tight game
First game of the Sweet 16 looks to be picking up right where we left off last weekend...0-0 heading to PK's....
I caught the tail end of half 1 and thought Luther was very much on the front foot, but didn't really generate any chances. OWU looked very organized and compact in the back.
I then caught the tail end of half 2 and both OTs, and thought OWU looked much more dangerous.
If momentum means anything, I give the edge to OWU in PKs.
First rule of all PKs is ya gotta hit it with pace. And that was the difference in why Luther is going on and OWU is going home.
...And Luther takes it in PKs. Nice announcing, Greg! I could tell during the replay that you wanted to say something about Davenport's full-body wiggle prior to the final PK that he stopped, or maybe you were just trying to suppress a laugh.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 22, 2019, 04:39:53 PM
First rule of all PKs is ya gotta hit it with pace. And that was the difference in why Luther is going on and OWU is going home.
well to be fair I think besides the 8th kicker OWU was fine.
Calvin in its usual 4-3-3 and like Messiah they attack with 5 and unlike most college teams hold with only one. The off the ball movement especially by Calvin's midfield is really a pleasure to watch. North Park is legit in its own right and look to be a slightly more skilled side than their 2017 version.
Very good game. whoever said this would be like an NCAA Semi was right, North Park almost got the first goal of the day in this pod right b4 the Half. Last 20 minutes North Park controlled the ball but again did not generate many dangerous looks except in that last minute. Calvin not quite as strong but still a contender. North Park has 3-4 VERY good players surrounded by some athleticism. They are trying to play more than they did in 2017 IMO and are more of a technical team than they were...Still 0-0 though...
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2019, 06:11:05 PM
Very good game. whoever said this would be like an NCAA Semi was right, North Park almost got the first goal of the day in this pod right b4 the Half. Last 20 minutes North Park controlled the ball but again did not generate many dangerous looks except in that last minute. Calvin not quite as strong but still a contender. North Park has 3-4 VERY good players surrounded by some athleticism. They are trying to play more than they did in 2017 IMO and are more of a technical team than they were...Still 0-0 though...
I thought NP had the better of the play and I am enjoying watching them more closely than previously during the season. A lot of talent for sure. And yet don't ya just have a feeling Calvin will figure out a way to win/advance? Should be a good 2nd half.
It's going OT in Chicago. North Park and Calvin are still scoreless after regulation.
Calvin wins 1-0. Tough loss for NP, as they were the better side.
That is brutal. No idea how that one ball didn't go in on the chip over the Calvin GK and then inches from a PK. I really thought NP deserved that one. Excellent job too by Mr. Sager. A very high caliber game....one of the best I've seen honestly.
What I don't understand is only 2 subs for Calvin (that surprises me about Souders and in D3 soccer just rubs me the wrong way) and only 1 sub for NP (who I did think was tiring especially in the 2nd OT) when they have a roster of 50. There's got to be at least 4-5 guys out of the extra 35 who can spell the starters. Anyway, feel really bad for NP. Calvin if they get by Luther better hope that someone takes care of Tufts because there is no way Calvin is beating Tufts playing 2 subs.
The Lob by Olsen would have been goal of the year. His motor was incredible, he made a slide tackle in his own half 20 seconds after that shot. Calvin had majority of possession but didn't go anywhere for majority of game and was exposed on the counter towards end of regulation. Both teams really opened themselves up and eventually Adams capitalized on a great goal.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 22, 2019, 08:26:36 PM
The Lob by Olsen would have been goal of the year. His motor was incredible, he made a slide tackle in his own half 20 seconds after that shot. Calvin had majority of possession but didn't go anywhere for majority of game and was exposed on the counter towards end of regulation. Both teams really opened themselves up and eventually Adams capitalized on a great goal.
I'm not sure Calvin had the majority of possession especially in the 2nd half. I know possession and shots don't necessarily track together but NP outshot Calvin 18-6 and 12-3 in the 2nd half alone...but only one shot in both OTs combined. Calvin GK also made a nice save on I think Olsen's free kick from the side angle late in regulation iirc.
The winner was impressive but I thought the assist was great vision. When the kid played it forward and it got cycled back to him I thought he would try to play it around the back and switch fields to create one final chance, but instead he one-timed a ball forward and right to feet. Heads-up play and the finish was great too but the forward-thinking vision on the through ball was evident.
A very entertaining 1-0 and I tend to agree that North Park would have deserved the win. Tough breaks against the Vikings, but Calvin had just enough to get over the line.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2019, 08:55:38 PM
The winner was impressive but I thought the assist was great vision. When the kid played it forward and it got cycled back to him I thought he would try to play it around the back and switch fields to create one final chance, but instead he one-timed a ball forward and right to feet. Heads-up play and the finish was great too but the forward-thinking vision on the through ball was evident.
A very entertaining 1-0 and I tend to agree that North Park would have deserved the win. Tough breaks against the Vikings, but Calvin had just enough to get over the line.
Agreed. That pass was a great, clutch play. NP earlier in regulation had a through ball almost as good or better if the player had scored....that was the first chance to chip and a big chance missed.
It's weird....I thought NP deserved to win but I never thought Calvin was gonna lose (well, maybe for a second when I had zero doubt that lob was going in. The things that decide games and who you end up playing or not playing down the road are so impacted by the smallest of margins.
As an NPU fan this is a hard loss to take given we were the better team on the night (I thought we were at least) . Thank you seniors and good luck with your futures and thanks for being a Viking!
Calvin - good luck for the rest of the tourney.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2019, 07:55:09 PM
That is brutal. No idea how that one ball didn't go in on the chip over the Calvin GK and then inches from a PK. I really thought NP deserved that one. Excellent job too by Mr. Sager. A very high caliber game....one of the best I've seen honestly.
What I don't understand is only 2 subs for Calvin (that surprises me about Souders and in D3 soccer just rubs me the wrong way) and only 1 sub for NP (who I did think was tiring especially in the 2nd OT) when they have a roster of 50. There's got to be at least 4-5 guys out of the extra 35 who can spell the starters. Anyway, feel really bad for NP. Calvin if they get by Luther better hope that someone takes care of Tufts because there is no way Calvin is beating Tufts playing 2 subs.
I think the Calvin goalie should buy dinner for the crossbar on that chip. He must have been thinking...oh crap its over my head and going in. Then a bounce and long wait to see if it goes in...saved by the crossbar. Tough break for NP.. Smallest of breaks make the difference between being bounced or winning it all. That's what makes it so tough to repeat. Calvin got golden goal against Messiah in 2016 sweet 16 with about a minute left in 2ot. Deja Vu. Foul around 30 yards out and set piece goal ended it before shootout. Even during Messiah multiple repeat championships they had OT wins, PK shootouts, and 1 goal victories. Takes good fortune, good health and good defense to pull it off consistently.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2019, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 22, 2019, 04:39:53 PM
First rule of all PKs is ya gotta hit it with pace. And that was the difference in why Luther is going on and OWU is going home.
well to be fair I think besides the 8th kicker OWU was fine.
And that's the point. Whole season riding on you, gotta give it a knock.
Tough one to take as an NPU fan, but that's soccer. The Vikings had more than their fair share of chances to put one in today, and it just never happened. There were about three or four great opportunities -- not just Peder Olsen's crossbar shot and the foul at the edge of the box -- that the Vikings will be seeing in their sleep all winter and spring. Calvin had a few great opportunities as well -- Hunter Olson's point-blank shot from eight yards out that Mathias Stulen stopped early in the second half comes to mind -- but on balance NPU had more good chances. But Calvin connected on the only one that mattered with 1:22 left in live action, and blooter 442 is right that it was a great setup and well-executed goal. That's somehow comforting, as it would've stung even more if Calvin had won on a lucky bounce.
It doesn't seem to me that NPU has enjoyed a lot of respect in this online community, even after the run to the national title game in 2017, but perhaps that's starting to change. D3 men's soccer is sort of an old-guard kind of level, which is understandable when you look at the high degree of continuity with regard to which teams are playing in the second and third weekends of the tourney year after year. Building a program that garners that kind of respect is a process. But I think that d3soccer.com has regarded NPU even more lightly; the Vikings barely squeaked into the last ranking at #25, and Matthew Zinner didn't even deign to mention North Park at all during the season after listing the Vikings as his #20 dark horse in his preseason column. Perhaps going toe-to-toe with d3soccer.com's #1 team today the way that the Vikings did will turn a few of their heads as well.
Great season for NPU, and I couldn't be more proud of the way that my alma mater's team played today.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2019, 07:55:09 PMWhat I don't understand is only 2 subs for Calvin (that surprises me about Souders and in D3 soccer just rubs me the wrong way) and only 1 sub for NP (who I did think was tiring especially in the 2nd OT) when they have a roster of 50. There's got to be at least 4-5 guys out of the extra 35 who can spell the starters. Anyway, feel really bad for NP. Calvin if they get by Luther better hope that someone takes care of Tufts because there is no way Calvin is beating Tufts playing 2 subs.
I can't speak for Ryan Souders, but Kris Grahn dramatically shortened his bench in the tight contests NPU was in once the regular season ended, down to three, then down to two, then down to the one he used today. I think that he was having trust issues and just didn't want to get burned with anything short of his best players out there.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 22, 2019, 10:22:07 AM
Greg,
Are you on the call today? I hope so, as you have done a tremendous job all year.
Quote from: Dubuquer on November 22, 2019, 04:50:40 PM
...And Luther takes it in PKs. Nice announcing, Greg! I could tell during the replay that you wanted to say something about Davenport's full-body wiggle prior to the final PK that he stopped, or maybe you were just trying to suppress a laugh.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2019, 07:55:09 PMExcellent job too by Mr. Sager.
Thanks, gentlemen. Much appreciated!
I agree with all the comments....It was a Final 4 level game. North Park midfield especially #10 was impressive, Their midfield combination play actually both teams was excellent. That thru ball that the kid MISSED on was PRO level vision by both passer and receiver. Poor finish didn't matter as the ball was jaw dropping...As far as Calvin, PN was right ..they just fin a way but I thought at Halftime last night it felt a little different..I really was confident North Park would find a Home goal the way they were playing.
Now...Calvin has the talent to win it all but are clearly not quite as strong as years past and do not have the depth. Also, Calvin's GK might have made one nice save but he has gotta make u nervy back there..The crossbar play he was way off his line and then like 2 minutes later he almost got caught again. I would have liked to see North Park maybe test Calvin's GK from distance and then crash for cough ups....North Park was sometimes looking for the perfect finish and they almost got it but that GK needs to be tested....
Subbing-----It is a bit ridiculous to use only 2 subs....Basically the Head Coach ONLY trusts those players on the field....Do or Die games / important games will always show a Head Coach's hand at what a team has...He will only throw their very best at you and not risk anyone on the field they do not have confidence in. So what must all those players sitting on the bench thinking??? This goes back to my point about guys sitting for years and never playing and it being pretty rare for these guys to stick it out and push for 3-4 years....
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2019, 11:26:05 PM
It doesn't seem to me that NPU has enjoyed a lot of respect in this online community, even after the run to the national title game in 2017, but perhaps that's starting to change. D3 men's soccer is sort of an old-guard kind of level, which is understandable when you look at the high degree of continuity with regard to which teams are playing in the second and third weekends of the tourney year after year. Building a program that garners that kind of respect is a process. But I think that d3soccer.com has regarded NPU even more lightly; the Vikings barely squeaked into the last ranking at #25, and Matthew Zinner didn't even deign to mention North Park at all during the season after listing the Vikings as his #20 dark horse in his preseason column. Perhaps going toe-to-toe with d3soccer.com's #1 team today the way that the Vikings did will turn a few of their heads as well.
Before responding directly to this, Greg, let me offer congratulations to the NPU team for a splendid season, a terrific game yesterday against the best of the best, and personal regards for the way you represent your university over the airwaves and here online. A big tip of my hat.
Entirely apart from soccer, my own respect for NPU as an institution is very high, and my knowledge of the institution is not superficial. I've mentioned a few times that I spent most of my career in higher education. I knew former NPU president Parkyn long before he went to NPU; ditto former NPU Provost Joe Jones, who is now president of Fresno Pacific; I knew well the late, sadly missed Larry Martin, a wonderful person who did so much to put NPU's physics program on the map; and I have known several other present or former faculty members and administrators at the college or seminary. I have sometimes had occasion to explain to people the distinctives of the Evangelical Covenant Church, and--believe it or not--I was offered a job at NPU before anyone I named worked there, and perhaps even before you first stepped foot on campus. (I declined it only b/c I liked the job description better at an SEC university, not out of any dislike or disrespect for NPU.) In other words, I probably know more about NPU and its mission, and perhaps also have more respect for it, than any other poster here apart from you, and maybe a few other occasional contributors who have been associated personally with NPU, or one or two Wheaton fans who have (to their credit) praised NPU soccer b/c they have seen a lot of it over the years and can be objective. So, what comes next shouldn't be seen as arising from a lack of respect. Quite the contrary.
Let me speak only about this 2019 season, Greg. NPU finished an excellent season at 16-5-2, with notable wins over Hope (4-0) and UW-W (2-1), and a 1-1 tie vs a Wheaton team that didn't have its best season and didn't get to dance. NPU lost to Chicago (3-1), Rowan (3-1), and K'zoo (0-1). The Vikings didn't have all of their starters available for much of the season--and Falcon fans like me certainly understand what that means (we have a key guy out this weekend, for that matter)--and they absolutely improved as men healed up and the leaves started falling. No question about that. But, the Massey ratings this week have NPU at #20, immediately above Rowan and well below Chicago, which seems about right to me considering the whole "body of work," to use a term popular with sports commentators these days that I actually don't like very much. I entirely agree with others that NPU outplayed Calvin yesterday, that they are more athletic and might even be a better team (right now) than Calvin and would have been deserving of a place in the Final Four. But, Massey works with objective data, and the 16-5-2 speaks for itself: nothing there argues that NPU should have been seen this year as among the very top teams in D3. They weren't. Not to put too fine a point on it.
Now, next year the story might be different. Wasn't every single player who got into the game yesterday an underclassman, or did I miss something? Granted, you might lose someone somewhere (I recall hearing about NPU players who go elsewhere before graduating, or who graduate "early" because they already had some college in Sweden before arriving), but for goodness sake NPU fans have every reason to be very optimistic about 2020. Very optimistic. Unless they do lose several starters, your team should be dynamite, and if they don't stumble a few times early in the season I would expect them to be regarded as top five from the gate. Of course, if the European connection results (directly or indirectly) in some starters needing to be replaced, that's what comes with that particular recruiting strategy. Again, unless I missed something, just two Americans played any minutes for NPU yesterday, both of them awfully good players (Barriga and DeCarne) to be sure. Either of them (along with half the other guys) would start for almost any other D3 team I could name. Any opponent who doesn't fully respect the talent at NPU is about to lose.
My best to you and NPU, Greg.
How does Rowan play this today....By now they should be very comfortable with Nescac teams and know what is coming. I am curious to see if they hang with Amherst and look for the upset late....RPI and Messiah is also another interesting game...I could see a 0-0 PK's but I also could see Messiah dominate the ball and scoreboard 2 or 3-0...Need ur most competitive kids to play well today to give you the best chance to win..Need the luck as well but WHO wants it more??
Mr Right,
I agree with your comments regarding the game. I thought your analysis was spot on. Very high level game dominated by extremely talented and skilled midfield players. Was a treat to watch.
I disagree with your comments about subbing. If this was high school soccer or youth league soccer, I would agree with you. However, these kids are making the choice to play and the coach's livelihoods are on the line. In the tournament, you absolutely put out the team that gives you the best chance to win. If that is 11 guys or 25 guys, it shouldnt matter.
Quote from: GoThunder1 on November 23, 2019, 10:44:59 AM
Mr Right,
I agree with your comments regarding the game. I thought your analysis was spot on. Very high level game dominated by extremely talented and skilled midfield players. Was a treat to watch.
I disagree with your comments about subbing. If this was high school soccer or youth league soccer, I would agree with you. However, these kids are making the choice to play and the coach's livelihoods are on the line. In the tournament, you absolutely put out the team that gives you the best chance to win. If that is 11 guys or 25 guys, it shouldnt matter.
I never argued the Head Coach SHOULD play them..I was just asking what they must be thinking?
Yeah mr. right spot on. It's not about making players feel nice. But playing 13 players isn't a winning strategy. If d3 was Friday-Monday I don't think tufts has 3 titles. Playing 18 guys makes such a difference when it comes to the second game.
LONG LONG DAY......"It may be GOLD but it looks like Yellow".....
Gametime....
There are multiple angles on the subbing issue. The first three that come to mind are....
1) Strategic -- Aside from aesthetics and complaints that D3 doesn't mirror professional soccer more closely, of course you are going to play your best players and play them in ways that the team is most effective. When playing against other teams of similar talent, just makes sense to me that a team that can play 17-20 guys has a better chance than one that uses 1-3 subs, and especially as noted in back to back games although you just can't do that on the fly. Now who am I to question Calvin's approach given their success, but it's also hard to believe that programs as big-time as Calvin and NP don't have a deeper team. I'm not arguing that every team should play 20-25 guys, but less than 16-17 seems odd to me at least in D3. I think most top D1 teams play 16-17 or more.
2) Team chemistry/morale -- Speaks for itself.
3) D3 mission or D3 mission + devoutly Christian orientation -- Yes, this D3 soccer thing is serious stuff but it's not the World Cup or D1 where athletic scholarships are a big deal and where playing supposedly is more like a "job.". Generally a coach in D3 has to do poorly over a number of years to have his or her job in jeopardy. Anyway, as I already said, just rubs me the wrong way and definitely surprises me regarding Calvin. BTW, in last year's title game Tufts played 20 and Calvin played 13.
JESUS----Amherst backs are just HOOFING...I mean not even looking up to see where it is going...Amherst midfield tryin to play and Cutler Coleman again busting his ass to play one more day...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2019, 11:06:35 AMNow who am I to question Calvin's approach given their success, but it's also hard to believe that programs as big-time as Calvin and NP don't have a deeper team. I'm not arguing that every team should play 20-25 guys, but less than 16-17 seems odd to me at least in D3. I think most top D1 teams play 16-17 or more.
Again, I can't speak as to why Ryan Souders coached his Knights the way he did last night -- although I take the fact that he only subbed in two as a compliment to NPU. I can only speak to the way that Kris Grahn shortened
his bench last night.
NPU typically
does play 15 men during the regular season. Sixteen different players on the roster played in 11 or more games, and there weren't 11 gimmes on the schedule. It's not a case of NPU not having a deeper team. Some of the players who didn't get into last night's contest -- Patrick Knap, for instance, who had a 7 g, 3 a season, or Runar Berg-Domaas, who started 15 games this season, or Alfredo Pichardo, who has logged over a thousand minutes on the pitch for the NPU varsity over the past three seasons, are the three prime examples -- were players whom Kris Grahn has used substantially all season. I suspect that if NPU had won last night, all three of them -- or at least F Knap and MF Pichardo -- would be on the field at some point today against Luther. But in going up against the #1 team in the country it was apparent that Kris was rolling the dice that his dozen stalwarts could hold out for 110 minutes.
Thanks for the compliment and for the thoughtful post, Falconer. As to your point:
Quote from: Falconer on November 23, 2019, 10:42:35 AMLet me speak only about this 2019 season, Greg. NPU finished an excellent season at 16-5-2, with notable wins over Hope (4-0) and UW-W (2-1), and a 1-1 tie vs a Wheaton team that didn't have its best season and didn't get to dance. NPU lost to Chicago (3-1), Rowan (3-1), and K'zoo (0-1). The Vikings didn't have all of their starters available for much of the season--and Falcon fans like me certainly understand what that means (we have a key guy out this weekend, for that matter)--and they absolutely improved as men healed up and the leaves started falling. No question about that. But, the Massey ratings this week have NPU at #20, immediately above Rowan and well below Chicago, which seems about right to me considering the whole "body of work," to use a term popular with sports commentators these days that I actually don't like very much. I entirely agree with others that NPU outplayed Calvin yesterday, that they are more athletic and might even be a better team (right now) than Calvin and would have been deserving of a place in the Final Four. But, Massey works with objective data, and the 16-5-2 speaks for itself: nothing there argues that NPU should have been seen this year as among the very top teams in D3. They weren't. Not to put too fine a point on it.
This is a philosophical difference with regard to ranking and respect. Massey deals only with the data that is at hand, and I think it's obvious that, in terms of wins, losses, ties, margins, strength of schedule, etc., North Park had a very good profile but not an elite one. But that was never in question. My question had to do with the team's (and the program's, by extension)
reputation.
Apart from what other D3 men's soccer fans think about the Vikings, the question is this: Is a poll supposed to strictly measure results, or does it measure perceived ability? In other words, are you going strictly upon the basis of wins, losses, and ties, or are you balloting teams 1 thru 25 based upon which teams you think would be likely to beat the teams ranked below it (on down through all 419 teams in D3)? I think that the consensus here is that NPU is
not the 20th-best team in D3, as measured by the data-based criteria of Massey, nor is it the 25th-best team in D3, as measured by whatever ranking philosophy d3soccer.com uses, nor is it off the radar entirely, as Matthew Zinner would have it. The Vikings are better than that.
This is a philosophical discussion that pops up from time to time on the men's basketball and baseball boards on d3boards.com, because, like soccer, basketball and baseball have lengthy seasons with a lot of games, and the issue of record vs. perceived ability thus comes up in discussions about rankings. Dave McHugh, who is a pollster in the d3hoops.com Top 25 poll, can speak to this at length. As he'll tell you, the operating philosophy with which all 25 pollsters work in that particular poll is to attempt to measure perceived ability -- who is most likely to beat all of the teams listed underneath it on a neutral court under normal conditions -- rather than W-L record. And that's my beef with the d3soccer.com poll, which I think was exposed by the fact that #25 outplayed #1 last night, even though #1 ended up being victorious in the 109th minute.
Amherst advances and Serpone got some of his key starters besides his backline, Coleman and Shiammz for the last 20-25 minutes.
Calvin had 16 players play in at least 15 games this year and another 4 that played in between 10 and 14 games. Coach Souders decided to shorten his bench for the game last night for whatever reason. I'm going to trust a coach with his track record.
Centre v CMS has a wild finish. 4 goals in the last 3 minutes. Very poor defending and composure at the end of the game. Centre advances to Elite 8. Will be interesting to see if they can hang with Kenyon or Montclair St.
Quote from: Falconer on November 23, 2019, 10:42:35 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2019, 11:26:05 PM
It doesn't seem to me that NPU has enjoyed a lot of respect in this online community, even after the run to the national title game in 2017, but perhaps that's starting to change. D3 men's soccer is sort of an old-guard kind of level, which is understandable when you look at the high degree of continuity with regard to which teams are playing in the second and third weekends of the tourney year after year. Building a program that garners that kind of respect is a process. But I think that d3soccer.com has regarded NPU even more lightly; the Vikings barely squeaked into the last ranking at #25, and Matthew Zinner didn't even deign to mention North Park at all during the season after listing the Vikings as his #20 dark horse in his preseason column. Perhaps going toe-to-toe with d3soccer.com's #1 team today the way that the Vikings did will turn a few of their heads as well.
Before responding directly to this, Greg, let me offer congratulations to the NPU team for a splendid season, a terrific game yesterday against the best of the best, and personal regards for the way you represent your university over the airwaves and here online. A big tip of my hat.
Entirely apart from soccer, my own respect for NPU as an institution is very high, and my knowledge of the institution is not superficial. I've mentioned a few times that I spent most of my career in higher education. I knew former NPU president Parkyn long before he went to NPU; ditto former NPU Provost Joe Jones, who is now president of Fresno Pacific; I knew well the late, sadly missed Larry Martin, a wonderful person who did so much to put NPU's physics program on the map; and I have known several other present or former faculty members and administrators at the college or seminary. I have sometimes had occasion to explain to people the distinctives of the Evangelical Covenant Church, and--believe it or not--I was offered a job at NPU before anyone I named worked there, and perhaps even before you first stepped foot on campus. (I declined it only b/c I liked the job description better at an SEC university, not out of any dislike or disrespect for NPU.) In other words, I probably know more about NPU and its mission, and perhaps also have more respect for it, than any other poster here apart from you, and maybe a few other occasional contributors who have been associated personally with NPU, or one or two Wheaton fans who have (to their credit) praised NPU soccer b/c they have seen a lot of it over the years and can be objective. So, what comes next shouldn't be seen as arising from a lack of respect. Quite the contrary.
Let me speak only about this 2019 season, Greg. NPU finished an excellent season at 16-5-2, with notable wins over Hope (4-0) and UW-W (2-1), and a 1-1 tie vs a Wheaton team that didn't have its best season and didn't get to dance. NPU lost to Chicago (3-1), Rowan (3-1), and K'zoo (0-1). The Vikings didn't have all of their starters available for much of the season--and Falcon fans like me certainly understand what that means (we have a key guy out this weekend, for that matter)--and they absolutely improved as men healed up and the leaves started falling. No question about that. But, the Massey ratings this week have NPU at #20, immediately above Rowan and well below Chicago, which seems about right to me considering the whole "body of work," to use a term popular with sports commentators these days that I actually don't like very much. I entirely agree with others that NPU outplayed Calvin yesterday, that they are more athletic and might even be a better team (right now) than Calvin and would have been deserving of a place in the Final Four. But, Massey works with objective data, and the 16-5-2 speaks for itself: nothing there argues that NPU should have been seen this year as among the very top teams in D3. They weren't. Not to put too fine a point on it.
Now, next year the story might be different. Wasn't every single player who got into the game yesterday an underclassman, or did I miss something? Granted, you might lose someone somewhere (I recall hearing about NPU players who go elsewhere before graduating, or who graduate "early" because they already had some college in Sweden before arriving), but for goodness sake NPU fans have every reason to be very optimistic about 2020. Very optimistic. Unless they do lose several starters, your team should be dynamite, and if they don't stumble a few times early in the season I would expect them to be regarded as top five from the gate. Of course, if the European connection results (directly or indirectly) in some starters needing to be replaced, that's what comes with that particular recruiting strategy. Again, unless I missed something, just two Americans played any minutes for NPU yesterday, both of them awfully good players (Barriga and DeCarne) to be sure. Either of them (along with half the other guys) would start for almost any other D3 team I could name. Any opponent who doesn't fully respect the talent at NPU is about to lose.
My best to you and NPU, Greg.
My take is before Kemkers and Barriga moved to defense, they were a good team. After Kris shifted them to the defense, they became a national contender.
I think Kris transitioned to this shape around the beginning of the CCIW conference games.
He moved Barriga and Kemkers to the backline after the loss to Carthage. NPU went 8-1-2 after that change.
RPI GK literally pooping his pants here....2 goals u cannot be giving up..2nd goal should have been closed but still I thought he should of got down...no idea what happened on the corner
scratch that ...2-2 after a PK
Kenyon ties Montclair 1-1 with about 10 minutes left after a sweet free kick into the upper left corner of the goal from about 20 yards.
And Montclair wins in the second OT. Amherst is the only host school to advance to the Elite Eight.
The Tufts W&L game keeps freezing on my screen. Every time I log back in I end up at an earlier part of the game. I've watched the 16th to 26th minute a dozen times. Nothing happens... this sucks.
UMM STRIKE OF THE YEAR......
W&L up 1-0 at half. Missed the strike. Happened on the 28th minute. Never was able to get that far.
Screamer.
Also, I know anything can happen in Sweet 16 games but RPI...wow. First Elite 8 in school history. Amherst are still favorites for that game of course but RPI just knocked out a team that hadn't failed to win since mid-September.
Calvin's first goal a great finish; the second a well-executed counter. 2-0 at half.
Tufts starting to back W&L in...still 1-0.
Just like that, 1-1.
Big Tufts chance with a really nice give-and-go resulting in a Lane shot that the keeper saved. A yard to the left and it would have been top corner, but it was straight at the GK who gathered at the second attempt.
Braun then nicks the bar on a header from a corner.
mo idea how they did not finish on any of those chances in 2nd Half...I would say about 5-6 legitimate chances
Tufts gets the winner 1:15 into OT. Tough on W&L who played well but Tufts was resilient and had just a bit more.
yup knew that was coming..it was a great effort by W&L but again by the 70th minute they just blew a gasket...they were ABSOLUTELY gassed at the end.....now this sets up an Elite 8 Tufts v Conn....
quick matchup advantage-------IMO Tufts will be full throttle going at Freddy Stiokes with that knee brace or whatever and his lack of pace to either keep up with Lane or Tasker...Either player will blow by him..He is an important part of CC backline as he is a physical player they need out there but maybe a little more speed at wingback tomorrow will be necessary for Conn.
Still this is a perfect game for Conn..They know the opponent and will be absolutely pumped tomorrow. Both teams are Senior heavy but Conn can be a gritty team and Butera is a gamer even with his crap play today he will be ready tomorrow. Donelan is key in the back. Should be interesting
This tournament will drive a stake into your heart every time...unless you're the last team standing.
At the beginning of the season I didn't even expect Kenyon to make the tournament but once they had such a good season and got hosting this weekend, well, another year of great opportunity ends in bitter disappointment. Not sure why Kenyon came out slow, although they did have to adjust to speed and athleticism of Montclair. Kenyon dominated most of the match after MSU scored and certainly had enough chances, outshooting MSU 23 (10) to 10 (4) with a edge in corners as well. Finally with just under 10 minutes left Max Taylor hit a sublime free kick and the Lords had life and a lot of momentum. Carson with 2 minutes left in regulation had an almost open net from 6-8 yards out but hit the underside of the bar and the ball didn't go in. The Kenyon dominated OT 1 and had at least a couple of good chances but should have done better on those. And of course the game ends on a free kick after another foul and I couldn't see what happened other than MSU celebrating. Reading the box score was extra painful as it says the ball went through the GK's hands. Whenever a game goes to OT you are tempting fate. Kenyon's good fortune for this season ran out.
Congratulations to Montclair. They played a smart, in control game, although I did wonder if they started trying to milk the clock way, way too soon and could have used another goal before Kenyon leveled.
Nothing worse than an Elite 8 game on your own field when you aren't playing. Only 9 months or so before the 2020 Season Preview video!
Good luck to all the remaining teams. I will try to recede into that good night.
Nice post PN. Best of luck next year to Kenyon.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 23, 2019, 04:57:59 PM
Calvin's first goal a great finish; the second a well-executed counter. 2-0 at half.
Calvin wins, 3-0. The stats, which favored Luther, are
extremely deceptive, because the game was as lopsided in Calvin's favor as the score indicates. The Knights had the clear run of play throughout, and their pace made the Norse look like they were standing still.
I interviewed Calvin coach Ryan Souders after the game, and I sure hope that he knew I wasn't serious when he mentioned how familiar he was with Hedstrand Field from his CCIW days and I jokingly responded by referring to that as time he spent as "the enemy". He seemed rather taken aback. I'm not sure that Wheaton folks always catch on that when we NPU types call them "the enemy" we're kidding.
(Well, mostly.)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 23, 2019, 11:32:45 AM
JESUS----Amherst backs are just HOOFING...I mean not even looking up to see where it is going...Amherst midfield tryin to play and Cutler Coleman again busting his ass to play one more day...
Made me laugh and reminded me of a Sweet 16 game a couple of years ago. UofR was playing Amherst at Messiah and after they got an early goal off a CK the rest of the game was just that, hoof it - didn't matter where on the field the ball was, it was getting a big boot. Even after Rochester went ahead 2-1 in the 2nd, the tactics didn't change and i remember the excellent Messiah commentators at one point saying "It's like they don't WANT the ball!" Impressive and willing athletes, and they've won a lot (including a national title), but the game plan seems a little anachronistic.
Amherst appears to be crushing RPI 3-0 in the 1st 30 minutes of the game
3-0 Amherst...Cannot believe this game is being played on that field...I think the Home team makes the call but if not why would RPI agree to play on that field if given the option...
Well despite having on paper the hardest path Amherst ends up with a cakewalk to the final four. Rowan missing their leading scorer for his 8th yellow card in the most NJAC move of all time. Then Messiah somehow losing to RPI. To be fair given the condition of the field, I think Amherst would have beaten Messiah as well.
Very choppy first half MSU and Centre. Fouls and injuries really bogging this one down. MSU seemed to have the better territorial advantage, but Centre getting off more shots. Still a toss-up at this point
If anyone is tuning in to the Amherst-RPI game, it is halftime and the field has been deemed unplayable. Everyone is relocating to a turf field, which is why the live stream says the broadcast is finished. They say they will try to get up and running at the new field.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 24, 2019, 02:18:10 PM
If anyone is tuning in to the Amherst-RPI game, it is halftime and the field has been deemed unplayable. Everyone is relocating to a turf field, which is why the live stream says the broadcast is finished. They say they will try to get up and running at the new field.
NOW HE DEEMS IT UNPLAYABLE?? Should have been done before the game. RPI plays on turf...how can u play one half on grass and one half on turf? I have nver heard of that
Quote from: Another Mom on November 24, 2019, 02:18:10 PM
If anyone is tuning in to the Amherst-RPI game, it is halftime and the field has been deemed unplayable. Everyone is relocating to a turf field, which is why the live stream says the broadcast is finished. They say they will try to get up and running getat the new field.
Well if they do not get it going....This game will be replayed...gotta play 70
Assist of the year....from Garuba....Little 'ol Centre College going the Final Four! Wow! I mean Tom Brady could not have dropped that ball in any better.
Centre with the OT win at 94:47 over Montclair State, 3-2. Boy, bad defense for both sides in the 5:13 of extra-session soccer in that one. It looked like it would be a matter of which error could be exploited first. Unfortunately for MSU, it was theirs.
Congrats to the Colonels upon making the Final Four for the first time ever.
If Garuba played in the NESCAC he would have challenged for POY and be a household name. Now he'll be on the same field with the NESCAC POY.
Again, this tournament will break your heart. MSU was 50 seconds from the Final Four when Centre equalized in regulation.
If there's one thing that 2014 and 2018 taught us about Tufts in the Elite 8, it's that you:
[ X ] Can't give away an early goal
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 24, 2019, 03:15:36 PM
Assist of the year....from Garuba....Little 'ol Centre College going the Final Four! Wow! I mean Tom Brady could not have dropped that ball in any better.
No hyperbole Paul - just an amazing ball. But Centre will take shots from anywhere - good things happens - like their first goal.
YYYESSSSS!
Messiah's women finally, finally win a shootout, this time over defending champs Williams, to whom the Falcons have lost a couple shootouts in recent years. So, the Falcons are in fact headed to the Final Four, simply in the other bracket. GO, FALCONS. Keep the dream alive!
There are four different-colored sets of lines on the Swarthmore pitch. I recognize two of them: soccer and lacrosse. The other two are, I'm guessing, field hockey and ???
Tufts up 1-0 at Halftime on a fantastic goal about 3 minutes in. They had a couple other good looks but I thought Conn possessed well and had spurts of good combinations. The final ball is lacking and when it was there the player did not make the run. Conn is right in this game but need to be careful about giving up a 2nd.
Amherst finished off RPI 3-1 on the turf. RPI looked MUCH better on that turf and scored when their striker bodied up Johnson from the 6 and turned him and ripped it. 3 goals was just to much of an ask for RPI to dig out of.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 24, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
There are four different-colored sets of lines on the Swarthmore pitch. I recognize two of them: soccer and lacrosse. The other two are, I'm guessing, field hockey and ???
Quidditch, I should think, given that it's Swarthmore.
LOL!
Quote from: Falconer on November 24, 2019, 04:01:24 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 24, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
There are four different-colored sets of lines on the Swarthmore pitch. I recognize two of them: soccer and lacrosse. The other two are, I'm guessing, field hockey and ???
Quidditch, I should think, given that it's Swarthmore.
Men's and women's lacrosse have different field dimensions and lines so I bet that's it
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 24, 2019, 03:59:58 PM
Tufts up 1-0 at Halftime on a fantastic goal about 3 minutes in. They had a couple other good looks but I thought Conn possessed well and had spurts of good combinations. The final ball is lacking and when it was there the player did not make the run. Conn is right in this game but need to be careful about giving up a 2nd.
Ehh I think Conn looked good for about the first 15 but after that the Tufts midfield kind of suffocated them and the front 3 became very isolated. I thought Noonan had a bit of an off-day so far. Tufts doing a good job of bypassing the midfield to advance the ball then involving the midfield in possession and chances around the Conn 18. I'm curious if they keep it the same in the second half with that very good midfielder at striker or switch it up.
Looks like Marcucci really misread that corner.
Tufts goes up 2-0 early in the second on a corner kick, mistake from Marcucci as he comes to the near post and misses, Daly bundles the ball across at the back post.
Conn immediately switches to a 3-back formation. I like that they're getting aggressive, but I'm not sure I like that. Coaches always do that when they need a goal but they never practice it and teams don't actually know how to play it. This early makes it very likely they'll give up a third.
Annddddd as I'm typing that excellent Conn midfielder who is now back in midfield (Djerdjaj?) hits the bar from a bad angle about 25 yards out. Great rip. Tchouma (sp?) is back up top and already looking dangerous. Conn formation change so far has allowed them to control the game and the midfield and generate a couple solid chances.
There's the third for Tufts. Bad giveaway for Conn in the midfield, great outside of the foot ball from Rojas to Tasker. Marcucci manages to force him wide but can't win the ball, and he centers to Lane who taps it in.
Fantastic ball by Rojas for that "hockey assist."
3-1, Conn. pulls one back off a deflection.
Copied from my post on NESCAC thread:
A strange day at Amherst, having to switch fields at halftime. If I'm Serpone, I definitely dig in and insist on playing on my home field as the home team. No faulting the decision, as Hitchcock Field--although tricky in spots--was deemed playable by officials before kick-off. Good job by all crews to get game going again on Gooding. Amherst deserved the win today. Congrats to RPI on a strong season.
Tufts keeping its 4-2-3-1 shape really well as Conn. starts to probe for a second. Decent ball in but cleared away by a Jumbos defender. 7 left.
All over, 3-1 Tufts is the final. Jumbos in their fourth Final 4 in six seasons. Tough ending for Conn. who showed well but Tufts was just a bit more composed and ruthless. Nevertheless, Camels should be proud of a banner year.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 24, 2019, 05:00:05 PM
All over, 3-1 Tufts is the final. Jumbos in their fourth Final 4 in six seasons. Tough ending for Conn. who showed well but Tufts was just a bit more composed and ruthless. Nevertheless, Camels should be proud of a banner year.
Hey Bloots! The camels should be proud.. they played tuff all year. Jumbos looked much better against them this time around. Congrats on Tufts for reaching another final four...
Conn battled hard...Tufts with just a little more today. I am glad the Conn Head Coach switched early(also I am betting they have worked on it in practice atleast some). Last season, Murphy didn't push numbers at Home v Ramapo until maybe 10-15 minutes left...I think he saw they were right in the game at took a gamble..I cannot fault it
https://mobile.twitter.com/CentreAthletics/status/1198709772121497600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1198709772121497600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcentrecolonels.com%2Fnews%2F2019%2F11%2F24%2Fmens-soccer-barth-newton-extend-magical-season-with-late-goals-send-colonels-to-final-four.aspx
The joy of a first ever trip to the Final Four...
Quote from: Falconer on November 24, 2019, 04:01:24 PM
Quidditch, I should think, given that it's Swarthmore.
😂 +K
a great performance by Tufts to return to back-back final fours for the first time. Zach lane bagged two goals today after missing a few chances yesterday. He always plays his best soccer at the end of year with the a goal in the final four and the game winner in the title game last year. Ian Daly with two goals in two games from right back. Not a bad performance for a sophomore.
Round 3 against Calvin will be a battle. Another game where the first goal will be so crucial. Neither team will want to have to play from behind.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 24, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/CentreAthletics/status/1198709772121497600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1198709772121497600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcentrecolonels.com%2Fnews%2F2019%2F11%2F24%2Fmens-soccer-barth-newton-extend-magical-season-with-late-goals-send-colonels-to-final-four.aspx
The joy of a first ever trip to the Final Four...
Congrats to Centre...However, that is flat out the worst defending I have ever seen in an Elite 8
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 24, 2019, 07:16:03 PM
a great performance by Tufts to return to back-back final fours for the first time. Zach lane bagged two goals today after missing a few chances yesterday. He always plays his best soccer at the end of year with the a goal in the final four and the game winner in the title game last year. Ian Daly with two goals in two games from right back. Not a bad performance for a sophomore.
Round 3 against Calvin will be a battle. Another game where the first goal will be so crucial. Neither team will want to have to play from behind.
Becoming a national rivalry with expected entertainment
A great year for the NESCAC with three teams in the elite eight (and Conn only eliminated by a conference foe). Could we have an all-NESCAC final? The Calvin Tufts game should be phenomenal. Don't know too much about Centre though...any idea how they play/what to watch for?
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 25, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
A great year for the NESCAC with three teams in the elite eight (and Conn only eliminated by a conference foe). Could we have an all-NESCAC final? The Calvin Tufts game should be phenomenal. Don't know too much about Centre though...any idea how they play/what to watch for?
I watched a lot of their game with MSU, in which Centre dominated the stats but was trailing 2-1 late in regulation. I can only go with the eye test on a very limited range of data--it's the only time I've seen either team play this year. IMO, they aren't as good at either end of the field as Messiah or Hopkins or F&M, to name 3 teams I know pretty well, but it goes without saying that you don't get to the Final Four by fooling people with mirrors--they beat 3 darn good teams and a decent team in K'zoo, so they are no fluke. I agree they are the weakest link in the Final Four, but they are still in that group this year. Now watch them win it all, which I would thoroughly enjoy. Please make me eat these words. :-)
The big target (Alexander Garuba) is a legitimate threat, even though he had just one assist yesterday. He got the bulk of the defensive attention. I am prepared to believe that his 23 goals scored this year would have been similar against a tougher schedule. He has some help up front, too--if you give him too much attention, someone else will be open and make you pay. Defensively they can be beaten, and I expect someone like Amherst or Tufts to take advantage of them, perhaps early in the game.
Sorry not to have deeper analysis to offer.
Centre is the clear and obvious Cinderella, but they've done basically everything they could do....earning and then maintaining a solid regional ranking, winning their AQ, dispatching well-regarded John Carroll at John Carroll, beating CMS, and getting by Montclair. The only challenge they escaped was facing Kenyon at Kenyon with a Final Four spot on the line, but of course based on Kenyon's tournament failures and Centre's form maybe Centre would have advanced anyway. Centre has several good offensive players, and Garuba is as good as anyone in the country. Centre has to hope that they can keep the game tight long enough for Garuba to be a difference-maker. It is most likely that Amherst will overwhelm the Colonels with Centre finding themselves down 2-0 before they can gain a grip on the match, so Amherst could win 3-0 or 4-0. I hope I'm wrong.
Prediction....Calvin finally gets by Tufts in a classic semi, and then proceeds to lose again in the national final to a will-not-be-denied Amherst squad.
Congrats to Tufts, Calvin and Amherst....very clearly the top three programs in the country right now with Messiah next at #4. A less advertised stat for Amherst that may challenge Tufts' four out of six Final Fours is Amherst's 14 or 15 in a row minimum of Sweet 16s. I do think the top New England sides tend to get a pretty clear road to the Sweet 16, but still, 14 or 15 straight NCAA appearances plus never losing on the first weekend is impressive.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2019, 01:56:57 PM
Congrats to Tufts, Calvin and Amherst....very clearly the top three programs in the country right now with Messiah next at #4. A less advertised stat for Amherst that may challenge Tufts' four out of six Final Fours is Amherst's 14 or 15 in a row minimum of Sweet 16s. I do think the top New England sides tend to get a pretty clear road to the Sweet 16, but still, 14 or 15 straight NCAA appearances plus never losing on the first weekend is impressive.
I probably agree with your analysis here, PN. On another day, Messiah probably advances to play Amherst for a spot in the Final Four, but RPI is awfully good too--clearly better IMO than Oneonta (e.g.), although Oneonta merits a top 15 ranking. They looked bad at times yesterday, but as has been pointed out, gameday conditions were hardly fair. It's never actually fair, IMO, for teams to be forced to play on smaller fields, even without the field conditions, which were huge yesterday. Soccer isn't supposed to be like MLB, which has always had differences in home parks factor into the game as well-known factors that even out over a season. D3 soccer, especially including the tournament, is what it is. It's fair, insofar as the seeding and hosting is supposed to be determined by objective criteria; but, it's never fair if the same teams always get to play on their own inferior fields every year, giving them very large advantages. At least the Final Four itself removes that factor--and fairly so. Whoever wins that has legitimate bragging rights--and, maybe that will still be Amherst.
And, as I forgot to say, RPI defeated Oneonta this season. Another reason to say what I did.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 24, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/CentreAthletics/status/1198709772121497600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1198709772121497600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcentrecolonels.com%2Fnews%2F2019%2F11%2F24%2Fmens-soccer-barth-newton-extend-magical-season-with-late-goals-send-colonels-to-final-four.aspx
The joy of a first ever trip to the Final Four...
The equalizer wasn't much better. About everything just went wrong for MSU in the final moments. Miskick, slip, bad clearance. Goal
Congrats to Centre...However, that is flat out the worst defending I have ever seen in an Elite 8
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 24, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/CentreAthletics/status/1198709772121497600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1198709772121497600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcentrecolonels.com%2Fnews%2F2019%2F11%2F24%2Fmens-soccer-barth-newton-extend-magical-season-with-late-goals-send-colonels-to-final-four.aspx
The joy of a first ever trip to the Final Four...
Congrats to Centre...However, that is flat out the worst defending I have ever seen in an Elite 8
Woooooooooow. That is horrific.
Quote from: Falconer on November 25, 2019, 11:45:12 AM
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 25, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
A great year for the NESCAC with three teams in the elite eight (and Conn only eliminated by a conference foe). Could we have an all-NESCAC final? The Calvin Tufts game should be phenomenal. Don't know too much about Centre though...any idea how they play/what to watch for?
I watched a lot of their game with MSU, in which Centre dominated the stats but was trailing 2-1 late in regulation. I can only go with the eye test on a very limited range of data--it's the only time I've seen either team play this year. IMO, they aren't as good at either end of the field as Messiah or Hopkins or F&M, to name 3 teams I know pretty well, but it goes without saying that you don't get to the Final Four by fooling people with mirrors--they beat 3 darn good teams and a decent team in K'zoo, so they are no fluke. I agree they are the weakest link in the Final Four, but they are still in that group this year. Now watch them win it all, which I would thoroughly enjoy. Please make me eat these words. :-)
The big target (Alexander Garuba) is a legitimate threat, even though he had just one assist yesterday. He got the bulk of the defensive attention. I am prepared to believe that his 23 goals scored this year would have been similar against a tougher schedule. He has some help up front, too--if you give him too much attention, someone else will be open and make you pay. Defensively they can be beaten, and I expect someone like Amherst or Tufts to take advantage of them, perhaps early in the game.
Just Amherst and Tufts? Granted, I've only seen parts of two Centre games this season, but I've seen enough of the Centre defense to know that Calvin would probably eat them alive. F'rinstance, while that was terrible D by Montclair State on Centre's golden goal, there were defensive goofs that I saw earlier in OT at the other end of the pitch that MSU failed to capitalize upon.
Having said that ...
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2019, 01:56:57 PMIt is most likely that Amherst will overwhelm the Colonels with Centre finding themselves down 2-0 before they can gain a grip on the match, so Amherst could win 3-0 or 4-0. I hope I'm wrong.
I agree. I'm pulling for the Colonels. Nothing I'd love more than to see an unheralded newcomer to the national scene -- especially one that's never been past the second round prior to this season -- knock out a constantly-hyped member of the old guard in the Final Four. But I just don't see it happening this time.
Quote from: Falconer on November 25, 2019, 02:31:51 PMIt's never actually fair, IMO, for teams to be forced to play on smaller fields, even without the field conditions, which were huge yesterday. Soccer isn't supposed to be like MLB, which has always had differences in home parks factor into the game as well-known factors that even out over a season. D3 soccer, especially including the tournament, is what it is. It's fair, insofar as the seeding and hosting is supposed to be determined by objective criteria; but, it's never fair if the same teams always get to play on their own inferior fields every year, giving them very large advantages.
What is the reason for your complaint? Is Amherst's Hitchcock Field smaller than 70/75 x 115/120?
As long as the field meets the NCAA minimum, they are fine. Minimum is 70x115. Max 75x120 - unless built before 1995 ... but I think those are usually not allowed to host (unless extenuating circumstances).
If we are talking about weather making a grass field unplayable ... that happens. The weather in New England this weekend was ... well ... wicked! Not much one can do about that and I don't expect a committee to say, "well since weather could be lousy, Amherst shouldn't host."
The field hockey championships were played after snow was pushed off the field in Penn. this past weekend.
The field is part of the elements one has to adapt to in soccer ... it actually sucks, IMO, that there are so many turf fields now (with countless lines; side note, Sager ... you were seeing soccer, FH, and both lacrosse lines - the worst is when football is also on full display).
Per hosting, there are other things involved in hosting other than geography and "seeding." That doesn't mean Amherst didn't qualify. :)
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 25, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Congrats to Centre...However, that is flat out the worst defending I have ever seen in an Elite 8
At risk of sounding like a broken record — nah, that ship has sailed — the first 20 minutes of their performance in last year's Elite 8 has to be comparable.
The ascetics of a soccer-only field (without the rainbow mazes of other lines) shouldn't be under-estimated. Saw a game at Yale where the visitors got confused as to exactly which lines they were playing.
A technical, possession-oriented team might benefit from playing in tight confines using quick one-touches to play through traffic. Conversely, a larger field might favor a long-ball kick and run team with speedsters because they'd have the space to outpace their opponents. The muck gives the player with the ball the advantage and possession looked fairly even between RPI and Amherst (I think?).
Regardless, RPI walked out with jackets on before the kickoff. The climate seemed to have gotten in their heads, and that might have impacted their feet. Channeling the Green Bay Packers and coming out in short sleeves might have sent a stronger message.
Centre is the Cinderella and Amherst will definitely be the favorite. Some of the analysis on Centre on watching part of a game is a little bit off. Their two centerbacks are veterans and one of the main strengths of the team, one has been playing a little dinged up and the time off will help. Their starting GK for the season was injured in the conference tournament championship game and has not played in the tournament. There is a chance he will be back for the semi-finals. The outside backs like to get up the field, high risk/high reward. It has been working the tournament, we'll see against Amherst.
Have seen Garuba several times he is quality at any level.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 25, 2019, 05:07:38 PM
As long as the field meets the NCAA minimum, they are fine. Minimum is 70x115. Max 75x120 - unless built before 1995 ... but I think those are usually not allowed to host (unless extenuating circumstances).
The rules actually say that the field has to
have been used as a college soccer field before 1995, not "built before 1995" -- so you can't, for instance, take an old practice field that's never been used for games and retroactively use it as a legit varsity pitch.
The
Pre-Championships Manual says that standard 70/75 x 115/120 fields have "preference" for hosting, while also noting the pre-'95 exception.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 25, 2019, 05:07:38 PMIf we are talking about weather making a grass field unplayable ... that happens. The weather in New England this weekend was ... well ... wicked! Not much one can do about that and I don't expect a committee to say, "well since weather could be lousy, Amherst shouldn't host."
The field hockey championships were played after snow was pushed off the field in Penn. this past weekend.
The field is part of the elements one has to adapt to in soccer ... it actually sucks, IMO, that there are so many turf fields now (with countless lines; side note, Sager ... you were seeing soccer, FH, and both lacrosse lines - the worst is when football is also on full display).
I think that the multi-use stadia in CCIW country tend to line for women's lacrosse after New Year's Day, which is why I'm not used to seeing those lines. All I ever get to see in the spring are baseball and softball diamonds.
I get that some people have an aesthetic distaste for an artificial surface for soccer, but with end-of-season weather conditions being what they are in the northern tier of states and the fact that multitudes of D3 schools have resource limitations that force them to double up on fields and/or use cost-effective surfaces, it only stands to reason that more and more schools are going to opt for turf. But not all turf fields are the same; I know that I sound like a pitchman, but I love Field Turf.
Quote from: Buddham on November 25, 2019, 05:37:19 PM
The ascetics of a soccer-only field (without the rainbow mazes of other lines) shouldn't be under-estimated. Saw a game at Yale where the visitors got confused as to exactly which lines they were playing.
I wouldn't call that aesthetics as much as a genuine potential hazard. I've heard of instances of a goalkeeper getting confused on a multi-lined pitch as to where the edge of the 18 was. But you can't use that as an excuse; it's incumbent upon a team when visiting a multi-lined pitch to familiarize itself with the relevant lines while it's warming up. It's not as though the other lines magically appear once the ref whistles in-play at the start of the game.
Quote from: Buddham on November 25, 2019, 05:37:19 PMA technical, possession-oriented team might benefit from playing in tight confines using quick one-touches to play through traffic. Conversely, a larger field might favor a long-ball kick and run team with speedsters because they'd have the space to outpace their opponents. The muck gives the player with the ball the advantage and possession looked fairly even between RPI and Amherst (I think?).
Regardless, RPI walked out with jackets on before the kickoff. The climate seemed to have gotten in their heads, and that might have impacted their feet. Channeling the Green Bay Packers and coming out in short sleeves might have sent a stronger message.
And that's definitely on the Engineers. They didn't bus into a different climatic zone when traveling the 80 or so miles from Troy, NY to Amherst, MA. ;)
Quote from: Buddham on November 25, 2019, 05:37:19 PM
A technical, possession-oriented team might benefit from playing in tight confines using quick one-touches to play through traffic. Conversely, a larger field might favor a long-ball kick and run team with speedsters because they'd have the space to outpace their opponents. The muck gives the player with the ball the advantage and possession looked fairly even between RPI and Amherst (I think?).
Uhh not quite. Possession oriented teams like large fields with nice playing surfaces that allow them to space themselves out and move the ball. Physical set piece teams like traditional Amherst sides feast on small fields where they can send a ball into the opposing box from almost anywhere. The more recent sides have also been able to use speedsters to counter into space on the wings to counter into space on larger fields, either generating a chance or at least a throw in they can put into the box...
Quote from: Falconer on November 25, 2019, 02:31:51 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2019, 01:56:57 PM
Congrats to Tufts, Calvin and Amherst....very clearly the top three programs in the country right now with Messiah next at #4. A less advertised stat for Amherst that may challenge Tufts' four out of six Final Fours is Amherst's 14 or 15 in a row minimum of Sweet 16s. I do think the top New England sides tend to get a pretty clear road to the Sweet 16, but still, 14 or 15 straight NCAA appearances plus never losing on the first weekend is impressive.
I probably agree with your analysis here, PN. On another day, Messiah probably advances to play Amherst for a spot in the Final Four, but RPI is awfully good too--clearly better IMO than Oneonta (e.g.), although Oneonta merits a top 15 ranking. They looked bad at times yesterday, but as has been pointed out, gameday conditions were hardly fair. It's never actually fair, IMO, for teams to be forced to play on smaller fields, even without the field conditions, which were huge yesterday. Soccer isn't supposed to be like MLB, which has always had differences in home parks factor into the game as well-known factors that even out over a season. D3 soccer, especially including the tournament, is what it is. It's fair, insofar as the seeding and hosting is supposed to be determined by objective criteria; but, it's never fair if the same teams always get to play on their own inferior fields every year, giving them very large advantages. At least the Final Four itself removes that factor--and fairly so. Whoever wins that has legitimate bragging rights--and, maybe that will still be Amherst.
And, as I forgot to say, RPI defeated Oneonta this season. Another reason to say what I did.
Falconer, just to clarify, I didn't mean how I would rank them this year. I meant over the past 5 years or so. I think the top 4 are pretty clear and folks can argue about the exact order (after Tufts). Then I guess Chicago and Brandeis are next with two Final Fours each over the past 5 years. And then Kenyon and F&M who have had almost identical successes and tournament woes, North Park, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, Cortland, Montclair, maybe Haverford, and I'm sure a few others.
I'm not changing my view on Centre but just to defend them a little. I raised an eyebrow at the beginning of the season when the Colonels made an unusual trip to PA/Jersey and beat Haverford and thrashed a TCNJ side that started hot with wins over Lycoming and Gettysburg. Thy lost me when they lost back to back games in their own Bob Allen Classic to Knox and Kenyon, but then they went on a streak. 20-3-1 ain't too bad. The 4-3 win over Oglethorpe worried me and I expected to to score versus JCU but also to give up too much. The JCU win was a very solid win. And yes, Centre started OT versus MSU by getting pinned in giving up several corners in a row, but in fairness, MSU scored twice kind of against the run of play and at least stats-wise Centre had an even bigger advantage on MSU than Kenyon had the day before. I seriously doubt Centre would have beaten Kenyon in that spot with Kenyon's dominance over Centre since 2013, but as I suggested before, who knows as the Lords have come up with some creative ways to exit from the tournament in Sweet 16 and Elite tilts. Anyway, Amherst has had some 0-0 and 1-0 types of games. Centre has a chance if the game is like that. Centre has to weather the first 20-25 minutes. In terms of MSU's defense on the GW, I think in part at least the pass made them look horrible. Most balls played over the top like that are either cut out by the defender or the GK grabs it....that ball was chipped over the top to land in just the right spot. And the finish was nice as many players would have overhit a bouncing ball and skied it 10 yards over the goal.
You just don't know with Amherst. Will we get the Amherst that has failed to win the NESCAC tourney when hosting, or the Amherst that can bury good teams 2-0 or 3-0 before the team can adjust to what they are dealing with? My gut tells me that Amherst has the psychological edge, and a good draw. They
should get by Centre, and if it's Tufts in the final Serpone will have the Mammoths watch Tufts' 3-0 win last year on s loop until game time. Of course the Tufts faithful don't like having to share any of the spotlight with Amherst and likes to think they play more beautifully than the Amherst bullies, but Tufts is more like Amherst than unlike them, especially with their size and a few players who love to get chippy. Calvin is the wild card. I don't know if they can handle Tufts' size for 90 minutes especially with very limited subbing, but Souders is a great coach and a master motivator. If Calvin beats Tufts and Amherst back to back the Knights will be thoroughly deserving.
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 25, 2019, 06:28:41 PM
Quote from: Buddham on November 25, 2019, 05:37:19 PM
A technical, possession-oriented team might benefit from playing in tight confines using quick one-touches to play through traffic. Conversely, a larger field might favor a long-ball kick and run team with speedsters because they'd have the space to outpace their opponents. The muck gives the player with the ball the advantage and possession looked fairly even between RPI and Amherst (I think?).
Uhh not quite. Possession oriented teams like large fields with nice playing surfaces that allow them to space themselves out and move the ball. Physical set piece teams like traditional Amherst sides feast on small fields where they can send a ball into the opposing box from almost anywhere. The more recent sides have also been able to use speedsters to counter into space on the wings to counter into space on larger fields, either generating a chance or at least a throw in they can put into the box...
Thank you - lots of big bodies on lots of rosters these days so will be interesting to see how that mixes with the higher technical levels of players.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2019, 01:56:57 PM
Congrats to Tufts, Calvin and Amherst....very clearly the top three programs in the country right now with Messiah next at #4. A less advertised stat for Amherst that may challenge Tufts' four out of six Final Fours is Amherst's 14 or 15 in a row minimum of Sweet 16s. I do think the top New England sides tend to get a pretty clear road to the Sweet 16, but still, 14 or 15 straight NCAA appearances plus never losing on the first weekend is impressive.
Of note (not sure if it was mentioned earlier) - Calvin is playing in their 4th Final Four in 5 years.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 25, 2019, 07:24:17 PMIn terms of MSU's defense on the GW, I think in part at least the pass made them look horrible. Most balls played over the top like that are either cut out by the defender or the GK grabs it....that ball was chipped over the top to land in just the right spot.
Go on Twitter to @CentreAthletics and watch the play again. It's almost as though MSU looks worse every time that you view it.
The defender between Garuba and Newton was so busy ball-watching Garuba, who was 30 yards away from him and was bracketed on the sideline by two other MSU defenders, that he got caught in no-man's-land on the play, in spite of the fact that he was near enough to Newton to close down on him once Garuba turned his body and went into his swing. Instead, this particular defender took three more jogging paces and then flung up his right leg fruitlessly in the air at a pass that was already past him.
The defender who was ostensibly guarding Newton simply let the Centre junior forward blow by him (and Newton even had his hand up, signaling for a pass) and didn't even kick it into high gear until Newton had the ball at his feet and was penetrating the box, at which point you can see that MSU defender lean forward, pump his arms, and sprint in pursuit of Newton, whom he didn't catch up to until the shot was two-thirds of the way to the net.
What's worse, the right side was completely undefended; there was a Colonel coming up (I think it was #4, Nick Mazzarella) who didn't have anyone guarding him at all. Instead, he got to watch his teammate send him to Greensboro while standing all by his lonesome at the top of the box.
Garuba deserves full credit for sending in a gold-plated beauty of a chip pass, but that was epically atrocious defense by Montclair State.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 25, 2019, 10:26:49 PM
The defender who was ostensibly guarding Newton simply let the Centre junior forward blow by him (and Newton even had his hand up, signaling for a pass) and didn't even kick it into high gear until Newton had the ball at his feet and was penetrating the box, at which point you can see that MSU defender lean forward, pump his arms, and sprint in pursuit of Newton, whom he didn't catch up to until the shot was two-thirds of the way to the net.
Yes, this. He simply didn't track back but rather decided to pass Newton off to the center back who was unfortunately out of position to defend against the run and a perfectly weighted ball.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 23, 2019, 07:43:45 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 23, 2019, 04:57:59 PM
Calvin's first goal a great finish; the second a well-executed counter. 2-0 at half.
Calvin wins, 3-0. The stats, which favored Luther, are extremely deceptive, because the game was as lopsided in Calvin's favor as the score indicates. The Knights had the clear run of play throughout, and their pace made the Norse look like they were standing still.
I interviewed Calvin coach Ryan Souders after the game, and I sure hope that he knew I wasn't serious when he mentioned how familiar he was with Hedstrand Field from his CCIW days and I jokingly responded by referring to that as time he spent as "the enemy". He seemed rather taken aback. I'm not sure that Wheaton folks always catch on that when we NPU types call them "the enemy" we're kidding.
(Well, mostly.)
I think I can speak for everyone on these boards....please in holy hell tell us someone has video of Souders reaction and then ur next move...BTW you did a very solid job this weekend. I was impressed you do this without any color guy. Do you do that for all sports? Well done
I wish schools would leave the games on their feeds for longer. As a parent of a team playing at North Park this weekend I would love to have been able to go back and watch the games again but with Mr. Seager's commentary. Do schools do this so other teams don't get advanced film on the teams playing? It seems like some school feeds leave the video up for a while or even post it to Youtube, and others its gone as soon as the game ends.
Quote from: MIAA on November 26, 2019, 09:33:05 AM
I wish schools would leave the games on their feeds for longer. As a parent of a team playing at North Park this weekend I would love to have been able to go back and watch the games again but with Mr. Seager's commentary. Do schools do this so other teams don't get advanced film on the teams playing? It seems like some school feeds leave the video up for a while or even post it to Youtube, and others its gone as soon as the game ends.
That's pretty much it from my understanding. I do wish more schools published highlights of all goals even if they don't leave the games up to view, but I imagine that cutting a highlight reel for a soccer game's goals is not high on most athletic department's list of priorities (although some schools do it well and regularly, and kudos should be given to them).
Swat has all three games on YouTube, search Swarthmore Athletics...
Quote from: EB2319 on November 26, 2019, 07:29:23 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 25, 2019, 10:26:49 PM
The defender who was ostensibly guarding Newton simply let the Centre junior forward blow by him (and Newton even had his hand up, signaling for a pass) and didn't even kick it into high gear until Newton had the ball at his feet and was penetrating the box, at which point you can see that MSU defender lean forward, pump his arms, and sprint in pursuit of Newton, whom he didn't catch up to until the shot was two-thirds of the way to the net.
Yes, this. He simply didn't track back but rather decided to pass Newton off to the center back who was unfortunately out of position to defend against the run and a perfectly weighted ball.
It really comes down to the CB that tries one of the worst bike-clearances I've ever seen, when as has been noted, the ball is already 5-7 yards over his head and past his body. He very easily could've just trucked it for a 3 or 4 more paces and met the ball and the forward simultaneously (worst case, he also had a legit shot of just catching it of the hop and clearing it.)
Not knowing what led up to that, it looked like a guy playing on absolutely destroyed legs... Was he perhaps having to chase the opposition's forward a bunch? Because, man, that was the play of a desperately fatigued player.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 26, 2019, 09:13:37 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 23, 2019, 07:43:45 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 23, 2019, 04:57:59 PM
Calvin's first goal a great finish; the second a well-executed counter. 2-0 at half.
Calvin wins, 3-0. The stats, which favored Luther, are extremely deceptive, because the game was as lopsided in Calvin's favor as the score indicates. The Knights had the clear run of play throughout, and their pace made the Norse look like they were standing still.
I interviewed Calvin coach Ryan Souders after the game, and I sure hope that he knew I wasn't serious when he mentioned how familiar he was with Hedstrand Field from his CCIW days and I jokingly responded by referring to that as time he spent as "the enemy". He seemed rather taken aback. I'm not sure that Wheaton folks always catch on that when we NPU types call them "the enemy" we're kidding.
(Well, mostly.)
I think I can speak for everyone on these boards....please in holy hell tell us someone has video of Souders reaction and then ur next move...BTW you did a very solid job this weekend. I was impressed you do this without any color guy. Do you do that for all sports? Well done
Thanks, much appreciated. Yeah, I fly solo on all nine sports I call (men's soccer, women's soccer, football, women's volleyball, men's basketball, women's basketball, men's volleyball, baseball, and softball). I used to have a colorman for men's basketball, but for the past couple of seasons I've been doing it by myself so that the NPU sports information department can save a little more money in their limited budget. I enjoy the challenge of trying to handle the different rhythms, terminology, rules, and tactics of the various sports. (Now that I'm fully into basketball season, my task at the moment is to excise "nil", "through pass", "kit", "mark", "touchline", and "pace" from my on-air vocabulary in favor of "zero", "lead pass", "uniform", "guard", "sideline", and "quicks". ;))
I'll bet that Ryan Souders' reaction was not nearly as funny as mine when I saw his face and immediately cursed myself inwardly for blundering into offending an interviewee on the air. After his momentary shock he recovered and seemed to take it in stride, though.
Quote from: MIAA on November 26, 2019, 09:33:05 AM
I wish schools would leave the games on their feeds for longer. As a parent of a team playing at North Park this weekend I would love to have been able to go back and watch the games again but with Mr. Seager's commentary. Do schools do this so other teams don't get advanced film on the teams playing? It seems like some school feeds leave the video up for a while or even post it to Youtube, and others its gone as soon as the game ends.
NPU uses Boxcast as its standard webstreaming platform, and I'll bet that you can still watch it there.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 26, 2019, 11:20:17 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on November 26, 2019, 07:29:23 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 25, 2019, 10:26:49 PM
The defender who was ostensibly guarding Newton simply let the Centre junior forward blow by him (and Newton even had his hand up, signaling for a pass) and didn't even kick it into high gear until Newton had the ball at his feet and was penetrating the box, at which point you can see that MSU defender lean forward, pump his arms, and sprint in pursuit of Newton, whom he didn't catch up to until the shot was two-thirds of the way to the net.
Yes, this. He simply didn't track back but rather decided to pass Newton off to the center back who was unfortunately out of position to defend against the run and a perfectly weighted ball.
It really comes down to the CB that tries one of the worst bike-clearances I've ever seen, when as has been noted, the ball is already 5-7 yards over his head and past his body. He very easily could've just trucked it for a 3 or 4 more paces and met the ball and the forward simultaneously (worst case, he also had a legit shot of just catching it of the hop and clearing it.)
Not knowing what led up to that, it looked like a guy playing on absolutely destroyed legs... Was he perhaps having to chase the opposition's forward a bunch? Because, man, that was the play of a desperately fatigued player.
The last 35 min of the game + OT looked like both team's legs were completely gone. Centre's defending on MSU's two goals was shambolic. Players were slipping and looked gassed. I think many can relate to the feeling of being a defender, seeing a ball over the top, and getting frozen. Seemed to be what happened & tired legs. Really poor cover by the other defender as well.
I understand D3 does it because of the travel expenses and class time, but Saturday/Sunday back to back games make for some ugly soccer. Both Centre and MSU were gassed, MSU was coming back from an OT game with Kenyon with less than 24 hours rest. It's just not enough recovery time for that quality of play. I''m not trashing MSU or Centre teams or defenders as that is the result of fatigue.
I don't disagree, at all. But with that said, these guys grow up playing in tournaments where they often play twice in one day, let alone on back to back days.
When folks on here throw in X team plays 18 or more guys on a regular basis when giving analysis, it's for this very reason. If you want to make a run in November, you're (usually) going to need a deep bench.
Quote from: MIAA on November 26, 2019, 09:33:05 AM
I wish schools would leave the games on their feeds for longer. As a parent of a team playing at North Park this weekend I would love to have been able to go back and watch the games again but with Mr. Seager's commentary. Do schools do this so other teams don't get advanced film on the teams playing? It seems like some school feeds leave the video up for a while or even post it to Youtube, and others its gone as soon as the game ends.
Technically, the games aren't allowed to be available On Demand because of the rights rules from Turner Sports/CBS - who own ALL NCAA tournament game rights. I will check for the umpteenth time, but one thing that has always stood out to me is that the games are supposed to be taken down either immediately after the game or a short time afterward.
Greg will attense that I HATE that teams only allow live viewing of any games. The argument is scouting which is such a moot point it isn't funny. Even if a sport doesn't have comprehensive video exchange (which most do) thus allowing teams to get video of teams from around the country any time they want and broken down a million different ways ... (1) teams still get video of teams from throughout the season, (2) I know of teams who simply set up a video camera to record the computer monitor (though, there is technology also to simply record the monitor on the computer), and (3) what are we really trying to hide?
It only hurts those who can't watch games live. That means families, alumni, media folk (like myself), recruits (and families), and countless others. It is a ridiculous call back to olden days and the fact coaches still demand it (during the regular season) is only detrimental to their program on the whole. (Side note: giving access only to players and their families to watch games On Demand is actually an NCAA violation that I know the NCAA has reminded schools on several occasions).
Ok... of my soap box ... again.
Quote from: cciw83 on November 27, 2019, 01:59:52 PM
I understand D3 does it because of the travel expenses and class time, but Saturday/Sunday back to back games make for some ugly soccer. Both Centre and MSU were gassed, MSU was coming back from an OT game with Kenyon with less than 24 hours rest. It's just not enough recovery time for that quality of play. I''m not trashing MSU or Centre teams or defenders as that is the result of fatigue.
This is actually being looked into for soccer and other tournaments (because you can't just do it for one). While I like the idea on paper, I do realize it will add a significant amount of costs to tournaments (extra hotel rooms and meals [per diems] and even transportation [extra day of busses]) plus the extra time and expense for hosts on campus. I am just not sure DIII can absorb those costs not only in soccer but in any other sport considering it (FH, BB, WLAX - and eventually MLAX - just off the top of my head).
Anyway, it is being considered by the respective committees in DIII. We shall see, but I am not sure I would hold your breathe. At best, they might put in a couple year trial period (like they have with a moratorium on conference teams playing in the first round; significant in some sports) just to see how much it could end up costing - though, that math isn't the most difficult to figure out.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 27, 2019, 03:55:58 PM
(Side note: giving access only to players and their families to watch games On Demand is actually an NCAA violation that I know the NCAA has reminded schools on several occasions).
Why is that a violation?
Additional benefits. If you aren't going to give the public access to the games (or you are going to charge for On Demand/Live access to games), then you cannot give access to the games to the students or their families. It is considered additional benefits.
Couldn't you just leave the games up for no charge, or is that a copyright infringement with Turner? If the games are available to the general public the same that they are available to players and/or their families, is that still a violation.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 29, 2019, 03:35:06 PM
Additional benefits. If you aren't going to give the public access to the games (or you are going to charge for On Demand/Live access to games), then you cannot give access to the games to the students or their families. It is considered additional benefits.
Wow. So athletes in high-end D-1 revenue sports can practice in virtual palaces, live in athletic-only dorms, and receive intensive tutoring, none of which are available to the student body in general, and none of those things are considered additional benefits, but giving mom and dad a password so they can watch a game their kid played while they were at work is considered an additional benefit? It boggles the mind.
Now, just to be clear, I don't begrudge those facilities that football and basketball players at certain schools have. Given the amount of money that Alabama football, for example, brings into the University of Alabama, and given that Bama is prohibited from explicitly paying the players who make that revenue stream possible, I'm perfectly OK with paying them in kind through the provision of those kids of facilities. And I recognize that given the demands on their time and the travel required, it would be effectively impossible for most of these athletes to compete in their sport and attend college simultaneously without the academic support staffs.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 30, 2019, 07:19:02 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 29, 2019, 03:35:06 PM
Additional benefits. If you aren't going to give the public access to the games (or you are going to charge for On Demand/Live access to games), then you cannot give access to the games to the students or their families. It is considered additional benefits.
Wow. So athletes in high-end D-1 revenue sports can practice in virtual palaces, live in athletic-only dorms, and receive intensive tutoring, none of which are available to the student body in general, and none of those things are considered additional benefits, but giving mom and dad a password so they can watch a game their kid played while they were at work is considered an additional benefit? It boggles the mind.
Now, just to be clear, I don't begrudge those facilities that football and basketball players at certain schools have. Given the amount of money that Alabama football, for example, brings into the University of Alabama, and given that Bama is prohibited from explicitly paying the players who make that revenue stream possible, I'm perfectly OK with paying them in kind through the provision of those kids of facilities. And I recognize that given the demands on their time and the travel required, it would be effectively impossible for most of these athletes to compete in their sport and attend college simultaneously without the academic support staffs.
You are conflating two different things. D1 has one set of rules for certain things and DIII has it's own rules - each division makes it's own rules though many cross over and are similar.
In addition, you might find that some of what you describe is either available to other students, doesn't actually exist, or has a rule allowing it at DI. Furthermore, you might remember schools like UNC have gotten into trouble for academic messing around similar to what you are describing. There are many cases where we can point to people helping out too much academically (to the point of doing the work or giving students canned work already done) from DI to DIII. Also, there are tutoring services available for all students across the board and MANY DIII teams have tutors available for the teams - again, not an uncommon practice.
But we can't be trying to compare to DI. They have different rules and football is a different beast altogether. The NCAA (meaning member schools) doesn't have the same oversight for FBS that is has for FCS and everything else in DI through DIII.
Quick note - I do have a problem paying players when they are getting free tuition, free books, free room and board. That adds up to a hefty sum. That said, I do not necessarily have a problem with those same student-athletes being paid for their likeness and personal sponsorships. They have earned that on their own. It may cause some issues between school sponsorships and players, but that's why the NCAA is taking about a year or more for all three divisions to figure out the options and rules - which gives each school the opportunity to probably put rules in place such as "we are an Addidas school and thus you probably can't be an Under Armor sponsored student-athlete" (taking a very simple idea; I am sure there are options I can't think of that will be worked out).
But no ... if no one else on campus is able to see the game, then student-athletes and especially their families can't be given the password to a broadcast. Student-athletes are able to see scouting video and such as that is part of being a team, but a university-produced broadcast is something the NCAA (again, member institutions decide) has stated is not allowed to be restricted in such a way.
Quote from: Goknights2017 on November 29, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
Couldn't you just leave the games up for no charge, or is that a copyright infringement with Turner? If the games are available to the general public the same that they are available to players and/or their families, is that still a violation.
Technically, according to the rights rules for Turner, it is a copyright infringement (to be very simple). Turner owns the rights and unless something has changed that I can't remember (and to be honest, these things do change often for crazy reasons) a school must remove the archive video for NCAA tournament games.
You might notice that outside of NBC (and now ESPN with special permission), you don't see many highlights of the Olympics used by networks and local TV stations. It isn't allowed. When I worked in Baltimore TV and we wanted to talk about Michael Phelps, we had to use non-Olympic video outside of the 24-hours following each individual race (and not before the race aired on NBC, too).
These networks pay a LOT of money for these things and thus get to put in place rules that may seem restrictive, but actually allow the networks to retain a lot of their rights to that broadcast. It seems silly, but that is also why I pointed out the rule could have changed for lower divisions ... but I haven't spotted it as of yet.
For posters interested in watching the Final Four......Amherst's game with Centre will be shown! Go to the Amherst web site and then to the athletic site.
Quote from: amh63 on December 03, 2019, 05:07:02 PM
For posters interested in watching the Final Four......Amherst's game with Centre will be shown! Go to the Amherst web site and then to the athletic site.
And I thought I had issues. I do, but still..... Unreal.
Big day today.....I think Tufts v Calvin will be a great game. Calvin is not quite as strong as years past but certainly have enough to beat Tufts if they play well. Calvin attacks with 5 in their 4-3-3 which should give us a wide open game as both teams should have more space than usual to attack. Who can finish and who gets better GK'ing will be the difference.
Amherst v Centre is more of an unknown to me because I have not seen a lick of Centre. I have heard they have a couple dangerous attacking players. Amherst is really solid attacking with Cutler Coleman, GG, Lind etc. Where Centre must take advantage of Amherst is in the back. Amherst back 4 are big and physical but not the most skilled. All 4 backs Kelly, Gitler, Johnson and Wu will barely take a touch before hoofing it long without looking where the ball is going. This to me is a sign of Serpone's paranoia with his backs that we have seen since his tenure began. He does not trust his backs to play simple and keep the ball as is evident because of all the hoofing. Now with Amherst size up front the hoofing can be somewhat successful especially against smaller teams. To me it is useless because half the time you are giving the ball back to the opposition for no reason. It is up to Centre to be able to win these long balls and keep the ball to go right back down the field. I would say Kelly is Amherst best defender especially 1v1. Long thrower Johnson is the worst defender. Centre must go at him to have any success. I have witnessed Johnson 3 times this season get posted up/ shielded by his opponent and then burned followed by a rip and goal. RPI's goal 2 weeks ago was Johnson getting posted and turned rather easily to rip one past White. Tasker burned Johnson the exact same way when Tufts visited Amherst this season and scored on a post/shield then a quick turn. He is not a good 1v1 defender and looks afraid that he will foul so rather than tackling he tries to body them up but this must be exploited if Centre has a chance. Bernie White has shown well this year IMO. He has made a few mistakes but what GK doesn't. Still I think he needs to be tested even from distance to try to get some juicy rebounds. Also, they must get him down on the ground on their shots as the more they make him work the better chance they will have.
All that being said, since I have not seen Centre, it is quite possible that Amherst attack will rip Centre's defense to shreds. Their skill and physicality could completely overwhelm Centre and this game will all depend on how physical Centre is and how long they can sustain it.
Serpone pacing up and down sidelines during starting lineups.....probably burned about 500 calories
Both teams look rusty so far...I would be willing to guess each team has about 15-20 giveaway's in the first 30 minutes.
GG 2-0 Centre....Amherst has just a bit to much in attack for Centre to deal with as of now. 1 more Amherst goal and this game will be in the books
Amherst up 2-0 over Centre at the Half. Centre has to somehow find a goal in the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half to get back in this game. They have some decent talent in attack and atleast are trying to play a little but their final ball has been horrific. Also, they need to shoot more which is easier said because Amherst closes the ball quickly but they gotta get White down on the ground, give better service when they have the ball and somehow finish.
Amherst 3-0 now and GG picks up the trick...Kid has 26 Goals on the year which is almost Alex Blake(Williams '02) territory. Blake finished with IIRC 84 Goals in his career and played some MLS. I predicted in early October he would hit 25 but he was stuck at 18 for a few games but man the kid is a machine and more importantly KNOWS how to finish. For Amherst this lead is HUGE because now Serpone can seriously rest his starters for tomorrow.
Mr. Right, when will you provide the breakdown on how to defeat Tufts? ;)
Waxed on at length about what Centre should do vs. Mammoths. So far, it looks like a moot point.
How should Calvin go about their attempt to beat the Jumbos?
I am a bit surprised Serpone did not rest any of his backs in the 2nd Half. It is unusual to be subbing your backline but his backs are all 6'2 or bigger and big guys take longer to regenerate especially on a back to back.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 06, 2019, 07:34:55 PM
Mr. Right, when will you provide the breakdown on how to defeat Tufts? ;)
Waxed on at length about what Centre should do vs. Mammoths. So far, it looks like a moot point.
How should Calvin go about their attempt to beat the Jumbos?
No need as I have explained for the past 2-3 years the best way to break down Tufts(frankly the only way)...Tufts drops immediately into a 4-5-1 when they lose the ball which is incredibly hard to break down because they hunt the ball as good as anyone on defense. The only way to break them down is to play FAST and to feet BEFORE they can set up in their 4-5-1. You gotta ping quick passes together moving up the field and catch them quickly otherwise you are playing right into their hands. If you cannot do that than your other option is your flank players must stay as wide as possible and you must be pumping in service with about 4-5 guys crashing the net. The great news tonight is Calvin is quite good at moving the ball up the field with precision and quickness AND know how to finish.
Once upon a time, I never thought I'd say it, but ... plus K, Mr. Right.
anyone got the stream going for the Calvin v Tufts match?
keeps showing Amherst match >:(
hit LS instead of V
Paoletta must be done for the season because Tufts has Tanner Jameson starting at CB again tonight. That is the only change but Calvin would be wise to press the crap out of him when the ball is at his feet. he is exceptional in the air but highly questionable under pressure with the ball and will cough it up if pressured.
Jameson did take full control in the huddle before the game to get the boys ready...good leader as well
These announcers.....(https://media.tenor.com/images/49a4dd4340c187a8d46ace415fcb5860/tenor.gif)
What a half... couple of golazos from Tufts. 3rd goal spectacular. Defending from Calvin has been surprisingly lacking given their rep (my first time watching them).
I don't think this is the best midfield Tufts has had offensively, but I love what they do defensively. Fantastic effort and shape breaking up counters, forcing the ball wide, supporting the wingbacks. Then charge forward to support attacks/counters of their own.
Quote from: Medicated Pete on December 06, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
These announcers.....(https://media.tenor.com/images/49a4dd4340c187a8d46ace415fcb5860/tenor.gif)
Thanks for tuning in!
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 06, 2019, 07:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jump4Joy on December 06, 2019, 07:34:55 PM
Mr. Right, when will you provide the breakdown on how to defeat Tufts? ;)
Waxed on at length about what Centre should do vs. Mammoths. So far, it looks like a moot point.
How should Calvin go about their attempt to beat the Jumbos?
No need as I have explained for the past 2-3 years the best way to break down Tufts(frankly the only way)...Tufts drops immediately into a 4-5-1 when they lose the ball which is incredibly hard to break down because they hunt the ball as good as anyone on defense. The only way to break them down is to play FAST and to feet BEFORE they can set up in their 4-5-1. You gotta ping quick passes together moving up the field and catch them quickly otherwise you are playing right into their hands. If you cannot do that than your other option is your flank players must stay as wide as possible and you must be pumping in service with about 4-5 guys crashing the net. The great news tonight is Calvin is quite good at moving the ball up the field with precision and quickness AND know how to finish.
Sometimes, it's rare... but they get too narrow in poss of the ball. SqueeZe and win in middle third. Quick counter with flank players on the touch line, with pace... and serve a ball in the box. If you get lucky you may win a second ball or intercept a bad pass... if not, better sprint back because Tufts is already finding mid or bypassing to their target.
Anyways, Tufts wins the final 2-1
Quote from: Medicated Pete on December 06, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
These announcers.....(https://media.tenor.com/images/49a4dd4340c187a8d46ace415fcb5860/tenor.gif)
Thanks for the feedback :)
What a tournament its been... it couldn't be more clear that these are the two best teams in the country. Shoutout to Mr. Right for saying that Calvin '[has] enough' to beat Tufts... yikes. Lets hope he didn't bet the kitchen sink on that one.
And now the moment you've all been waiting for. Here are Timmy Two Wheel's hypothetical Greensboro, North Carolina sports book NCAA Division 3 National Championship betting lines.
TUF vs AMH - (Pickem... AMH +110, Tufts +110 / O/U 2.5)
Prop Bets:
1) Yellow Cards - O/U 2.5
2) Giammattei goals - O/U 1.25
3) Number of times Coach Serpone runs down the sideline to yell at the 4th official - O/U 16.5
4) Number of different Tufts players that see the field - O/U 19.5
5) Serpone calories burned during the starting lineups - O/U 500.1
6) Tufts wears their 'bumblebee' jerseys - +250
7) Number of pre-game hot takes from Mr. Right ... O/U 3.5
I'll be taking the over on Yellow Cards and the Serpone Parlay. Tufts bumblebee jerseys probably isn't a bad bet either.
Ain't nothing like D3 soccer in December.
Amherst versus Tufts for [another] national championship.....the only silver lining I can grab hold of is that one of them is gonna lose.
Great final match-up and maybe one of the best in years....huge programs and of course both NESCACs; equal foes; neither intimidated, surprised or inexperienced with respect to what the other can and will throw at them; physicality, size, speed, and talent; dreaded rivals; star coaches...
I am sure the main reason I'm not a fan of either is that they are just too good. I think what Amherst has done with 13 (?) straight Sweet 16s or better, a national title, and now another final almost matches what Tufts has accomplished since 2014.
I would have thought I'd be cheering for Amherst. For at least several years I was a skeptic regarding the critics of the Amherst style/behavior, but I've caved. 5 yellows yesterday and what seemed like 10 or more intentional studs up tackles. And that pre-game pacing by Serpone? Wow. I'm not sure whether to be disgusted or worried. Don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that from a coach in any sport at any level, unless maybe a crazed parent coach of his kid's U8 or U10 town team. And then you listen to him at a press conference and it's like how can this be the same guy....obviously very smart, very articulate, and at least a talented thespian at appearing gracious and super-complimentary of his opponents and of course his team. His sideline behavior looks compulsive, but he also has heard the critics long ago and he's smart enough and insightful enough to know how he must come across, and he either doesn't care, is strategic, or truly can't help himself.
And Tufts strikes me as just a little (or a lot) too smug and entitled when it comes to these national title runs (and national titles). Just a phenomenal streak of success that seemingly came out of nowhere. I hope Shapiro does go to BC or Harvard because just not sure how much more Jumbo happiness I can absorb.
As for the game...I'm taking Tufts. Going back and forth on 2-1, 3-2 and 3-1, but I'm gonna guess 3-1. Why? Tufts is one of the only teams in the country (at least outside the NESCAC) that will have zero fear of Amherst and will need no time to adjust. Tufts will not care if Amherst jacks up the physicality and may even relish the Mammoths getting chippy. Tufts is not going to be punked, and I actually think that is a game Amherst will lose if they are counting on how sky-high they can get because Tufts is bigger (and maybe badder) than them. Tufts also will know better than anyone how to attempt stopping Giammattei, and they will remember letting him loose in OT last time. I favor Tufts because you have no idea where their goals are going to come from....and that's because they have a ton of guys who are dangerous and can score. Much harder to defend. The wild cards are Amherst's frosh sensation and Lind. The latter almost pulled off a gorgeous back-heel goal but apparently Tufts has a special place in their heart for Lind, so we'll see. Tufts is so good missing Paoletta has barely been mentioned (except for Mr.Right noting that he's out).
And then there's the flip throw.
Should be a good one....I'll be miserable either way....about like a UNC-Duke national bball final for me.
Quote from: Medicated Pete on December 06, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
These announcers.....(https://media.tenor.com/images/49a4dd4340c187a8d46ace415fcb5860/tenor.gif)
I thought they did fine. Keep in mind they were on air for like 12 straight hours. Not sure many people would sign up to do that. Thanks to them for being willing to roast their voices for several hours. Also, your Karma shows just how much people really value your opinion.
On a separate note, Congrats to Coach Souders and the entire Knights soccer program on another very successful season. This team/program lost 9 seniors and had to replace several All-Americans, yet still made it back to the final four. The Seniors on this team compiled an 88-8-2 record in their time at Calvin. Well done! Hoping the national title is in the near future. (For the record I did not compile these stats. I found them on various Calvin social media posts but thought they should be shared here.)
Speaking of the announcers -- who I commend for being honest when they don't know something or when they missed exactly what happened on a play and do an excellent job overall -- a really interesting moment in the Calvin-Tufts tilt was about 20+ minutes in McHugh commented that Calvin seemed to be dictating play and had an edge with Tufts scrambling a bit. I agreed with him but at the same time did not think Calvin was necessarily in good shape long term. Thor responded to McHugh's observation by hesitating and saying he needed a little more time to decide...and sure enough Tufts scored in the next 3-4 minutes. I didn't think Calvin was out of it then but by the second goal the game seemed over. The last time Calvin was down 2 goals was probably in a Sweet 16 game 2-3 years ago against Chicago.
Anyway, Tufts is very interesting that way and I assume it is intentional.. Whereas Amherst tries to overwhelm and steamroll you right out of the gate, Tufts seems to take their time, maybe engaging in a bit of rope-a-dope, and then gradually turns the screws like last night to the point that Calvin had zero space to operate. And it's at that point, I think versus Amherst and Tufts, that the other team looks like they are from a lower division and can hardly get the ball off their feet being suffocated. Maybe when all of this over Mr. Zinner can give us some insight into whether there is an overt strategy of "OK, let's do this the first 15-20 minutes and then hit this switch, and at 60 minutes hit this other switch, etc." Tufts' depth (where the 2nd 11 might well be a Sweet 16 team) is a key obviously, and to exaggerate just a tad the Jumbos seem to have at least one kid score every game that you didn't even know was on the roster.
Pick'em wouldn't be +110 unless we get ET and PK as a bonus.
AMHERST +170 / TUFTS +170 / DRAW +200
I'll ride Tufts +175
Giammattei under 1.25
Tufts under 19.5 players, by the grace of the hook
Serpone over 16.5
The over on yellow cards... that's free money.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2019, 12:44:48 PM
Amherst versus Tufts for [another] national championship.....the only silver lining I can grab hold of is that one of them is gonna lose.
Great final match-up and maybe one of the best in years....huge programs and of course both NESCACs; equal foes; neither intimidated, surprised or inexperienced with respect to what the other can and will throw at them; physicality, size, speed, and talent; dreaded rivals; star coaches...
I am sure the main reason I'm not a fan of either is that they are just too good. I think what Amherst has done with 13 (?) straight Sweet 16s or better, a national title, and now another final almost matches what Tufts has accomplished since 2014.
I would have thought I'd be cheering for Amherst. For at least several years I was a skeptic regarding the critics of the Amherst style/behavior, but I've caved. 5 yellows yesterday and what seemed like 10 or more intentional studs up tackles. And that pre-game pacing by Serpone? Wow. I'm not sure whether to be disgusted or worried. Don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that from a coach in any sport at any level, unless maybe a crazed parent coach of his kid's U8 or U10 town team. And then you listen to him at a press conference and it's like how can this be the same guy....obviously very smart, very articulate, and at least a talented thespian at appearing gracious and super-complimentary of his opponents and of course his team. His sideline behavior looks compulsive, but he also has heard the critics long ago and he's smart enough and insightful enough to know how he must come across, and he either doesn't care, is strategic, or truly can't help himself.
And Tufts strikes me as just a little (or a lot) too smug and entitled when it comes to these national title runs (and national titles). Just a phenomenal streak of success that seemingly came out of nowhere. I hope Shapiro does go to BC or Harvard because just not sure how much more Jumbo happiness I can absorb.
As for the game...I'm taking Tufts. Going back and forth on 2-1, 3-2 and 3-1, but I'm gonna guess 3-1. Why? Tufts is one of the only teams in the country (at least outside the NESCAC) that will have zero fear of Amherst and will need no time to adjust. Tufts will not care if Amherst jacks up the physicality and may even relish the Mammoths getting chippy. Tufts is not going to be punked, and I actually think that is a game Amherst will lose if they are counting on how sky-high they can get because Tufts is bigger (and maybe badder) than them. Tufts also will know better than anyone how to attempt stopping Giammattei, and they will remember letting him loose in OT last time. I favor Tufts because you have no idea where their goals are going to come from....and that's because they have a ton of guys who are dangerous and can score. Much harder to defend. The wild cards are Amherst's frosh sensation and Lind. The latter almost pulled off a gorgeous back-heel goal but apparently Tufts has a special place in their heart for Lind, so we'll see. Tufts is so good missing Paoletta has barely been mentioned (except for Mr.Right noting that he's out).
And then there's the flip throw.
Should be a good one....I'll be miserable either way....about like a UNC-Duke national bball final for me.
Concur with all of this
Tufts up 1-0 at half off an effort from Tasker midway through the first half. Both teams have actually looked solid on the whole, but Tufts seems that bit more poised. Giammattei pretty quiet for most of the half but started to get into the game toward the end of the half. Still all to play for.
Should be a good second half. :)
That is just textbook Violent Conduct from Braun and Tufts is lucky not to be playing with 10 men
Oh man... Braun lucky to be on the field after throwing a wild elbow at a defenders head. Shades of that Tufts CB from 2014 that was suspended a couple games, though not thatttt bad. Not sure how the referee has seen that and only given a yellow.
Stadium announcer changes his pitch about 5 times a sentence.
25 left, Amherst cranking up the pressure but Tufts still holding firm.
On the soccer side of things... Tufts defending pretty well, particularly on GG. Not allowing Amherst second chances, taking possession well and moving the ball out of their half, but Amherst has had a decent number of chances and will surely have plenty more to equalize in the 25 minutes left. Kindermann with a couple decent stops but looking very shaky on high balls. Being well protected by the tufts back line.
Ratzan with a great cross which was completely missed by the Amherst CB, Jacobs all alone in the middle with the finish. 2-0 and that seems to be curtains with 16:59 left.
Questions over handball, and it looked like it was from the video. What's the "review" process if they don't check the goals when they go in? Seems like a gap in the process if I'm understanding this correctly.
Oh wow...Lane latches on to a low ball into the box, rounds White, but loses hsi footing and goes out for a goal kick. Should have been 3-0. Just after, Amherst hits the post.
In terms of real scoring opportunities, Amherst has created a few half-chances that Kindermann has saved well but they were generally aimed in his direction. With Giammattei double- and triple-teamed, Tufts has had the better chances IMHO.
And it's over, Tufts 2-0 over Amherst. Tufts was just a bit more streetwise, playing to its strengths, keeping Giammattei quiet, and not getting exposed. Pressed well defensively but also kept its shape well. That mid-October blip (including that loss at Amherst) looks a million miles away now, as the Jumbos pulled it together when it mattered.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 07, 2019, 08:54:36 PM
Oh wow...Lane latches on to a low ball into the box, rounds White, but loses hsi footing and goes out for a goal kick. Should have been 3-0. Just after, Amherst hits the post.
In terms of real scoring opportunities, Amherst has created a few half-chances that Kindermann has saved well but they were generally aimed in his direction. With Giammattei double- and triple-teamed, Tufts has had the better chances IMHO.
Lane chance he didn't lose his footing so much as run out of room... good job by the Amherst keeper of forcing him wide enough. Sometimes it's all you have to do.
Tufts definitely the better team. Didn't generate a ton on offense, but generated enough and finished ruthlessly. First goal was huge. Defending was excellent, were able to exert their control on the game. Except for a couple of 5 minute stretches, Amherst couldn't generate pressure.
Tufts this year remind me a bit of Liverpool. Dynamic front 3 (though Braun is more of a target man) and attack that can score from nothing, solid back 5 that is very hard to break down, a midfield that does a lot of work on both ends of the field even if not always playing possession. And they show up for the big games, finish ruthlessly, and they make the opponent play their game, smothering them with midfield and defensive pressure then springing quick attacks to the front 3 to be joined by the 2 free midfielders.
Quote from: blooter442 on December 07, 2019, 08:41:57 PM
Ratzan with a great cross which was completely missed by the Amherst CB, Jacobs all alone in the middle with the finish. 2-0 and that seems to be curtains with 16:59 left.
Questions over handball, and it looked like it was from the video. What's the "review" process if they don't check the goals when they go in? Seems like a gap in the process if I'm understanding this correctly.
It's not quite VAR for clear and obvious errors. You only check for 3 things on video replay, and I'm not certain any d3 schools utilize this even after inception from a few years ago.
-Goal in or out
-review for a fight to identify players involved
-identify players for discipline
Quote from: hiyasoccer on December 07, 2019, 09:07:29 PM
Lane chance he didn't lose his footing so much as run out of room... good job by the Amherst keeper of forcing him wide enough. Sometimes it's all you have to do.
Fair, yeah on second look that is good play by White.
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 07, 2019, 09:34:44 PM
It's not quite VAR for clear and obvious errors. You only check for 3 things on video replay, and I'm not certain any d3 schools utilize this even after inception from a few years ago.
-Goal in or out
-review for a fight to identify players involved
-identify players for discipline
Interesting. Thanks. I guess I assumed a bit much, although the commentators had referenced it a couple of times and knowing what I know of video review I figured at bare minimum they'd check goals to make sure that they were clean (of fouls or offside on the final ball).
Didn't see any shots of the crowd, but sounded like there was a big pro-Tufts one. Can anyone comment on fan attendance?
First off replying to Hiya on the crowed. Amherst had an incredible showing in terms of alums but the Tufts group always travels well as success begets success.
Next as an alum I am so incredibly proud of this senior class. Despite all the questions of their leadership ability coming into the year they managed to accomplish what we all failed to do, go back go back. It is so incredibly difficult when every team has you circled on the schedule as the defending champs. They managed to right the ship after the mid season and go on a dominant run. This team and class has earned a place on the tufts Mount Rushmore as the first class to do the Nescac NCAA double.
Moving forward tufts loses a ton. The starting front 3, rojas at the 10, Jameson at CB with Stern at Lb and Treverrow off the bench. That being said they also return a ton of talent. Ratzen ended as the leading scoring coming off the bench and will slot in for Lane. Cano scored a banger last night and will have the job of filling Tasker shoes. Max Jacobs will the insurance goal tonight and a ton of big goals will have to replace Joe Braun, the second two time all American in tufts history. (Shout out Matt Adler) Zach sigelstein and a couple others will have to replace rojas and the ton of production he had over the last four years. Theoretically Paoletta who is arguably the most dominant center back in the country will come back in for Jameson once he's healthy.
TLDR tufts is losing one of the greatest classes in D3 soccer history and it will be quite the task to replace them. But worrying about that can wait until Monday when the boys will get back to work. Incredibly proud of this group and welcome to the mountain top.
My impressions:
1. First goal was a great individual effort by Tasker BUT again Johnson should of stuck him at the top of the box and whiffed/slipped and then Wu could of tackled him before the shot was taken. Nice finish and BTW I was the one who had questioned Tufts Senior leadership going into the year but Tasker and Jameson really proved me wrong. Tasker has really matured in 4 years and turned into a real leader to go along with his immense talent. That is the part of athletics that helps kids in their upcoming professional careers.
2. Second goal was a great cross from Ratzan to a wide open Jacobs who buried it. He was wide open for two reasons as obviously Kelly gambled and just missed but Wu was caught marking no one. He got dragged over to help on Ratzan but never fully got over in time and then once Kelly gambled it was only Gitler at the top of the box but he was marking another Tufts player. Kelly gambled but Wu should of been on the 6 NOT helping to double Ratzan.
3. I thought the difference in the game was Tufts midfield especially defensively. Aroh / Rojas / Van Brewer 1st Half totally outplayed Amherst midfield.
4. IIRC Amherst used ONLY 2 subs (a defender Barkidjija and a skilled midfielder Frosh Cubbedo) throughout the whole game while Tufts used 7. Tufts has a deeper bench and it showed but Amherst has more than 2 players off the bench they could of used to help. Where was McMillian? His speed should of been used up top to start the 2nd Half along with his other attacking players. Serpone sacked holder Shahmirzadi at the Half and put Gitler in the middle of the park and then used Barkidjija on the backline for Gitler. He also sacked Derby in favor of Cubbedo which should of happened earlier.
5. Amherst refused to change tactics against Tufts and played very direct trying to spring their strikers or use set pieces/long throws to score like they have done all year. That is one-trick pony stuff as personally I would have liked to see Serpone go to a 3-4-3 to start 2nd Half and start playing to feet like Amherst is capable of in attack. I would of had Kelly, Wu and Johnson in the back. Midfield in a diamond with Gitler in front of the back 3 then have Coleman and Lind in the middle of the park with Cubeddu in front of them linking to the strikers. Then you got your 3 blazing fast strikers with McMillian and Okorogheye very wide to the touch and GG up top. If Amherst came out like that and started playing to feet and wide switching fields and being creative they might have given themselves more opportunities to score and THEN you rely on your size and crash the net. However, IMO Amherst never really changed what they were trying to do and against Tufts you MUST mix it up especially down a goal in a Championship match at Halftime. You have to gamble down a goal and yes maybe Tufts would have gotten a 2nd goal on the counter with Amherst pushing numbers but maybe not. We will never know and Tufts got their 2nd goal anyhow. I mean if Amherst is just going to hit long ball after long ball why not play a 4-2-4? Seriously what is the point of even having midfielders if you are not using them.
6. Tufts backline(Daly, Raphael, Jameson and Stern) + Aroh played very well. They doubled GG the minute he touched the ball and all 5 played fantastic. GG and Okorogheye did have a couple decent looks but that was it. Okorogheye is a fine athlete and speedster but he dribbles WAY to much and with his head down and while he gives good service he also gives the ball away a ton and Tufts did not dive in on him and sat on his right foot because he has no left foot.
6. D4 noted the Seniors Tufts will lose and they are massive losses that even Tufts will have a hard time replacing right away. Jacobs will replace Braun and Cano will replace Tasker plus Ratzan for Lane. I think this kid Seigelstein will be replacing Rojas. He played well 2nd Half of the season for Tufts off the bench. When I saw his highlight video a couple years ago before he enrolled at Tufts I thought he was skilled but very slight. Well the strength coach at Tufts or someone has worked with him because the kid has some meat on his bones now to go along with some serious skill. He has great vision and I can tell has a high soccer IQ. I think he will be a HUGE help next year.
7. Congrats to Tufts...Seriously that was an amazing year....What else can Shapiro accomplish now? This is the time to make a move. Harvard is the logical choice and he can win there but personally I would go for BC. BC might want someone with D1 Head Coaching experience which Shapiro does not have but his time at Georgetown and his tremendous success at Tufts in 10 years might be enough to get him the gig at BC if he nails the interview. At the very least force Tufts to give you a raise by applying to these schools and getting interviews and see exactly how much Tufts values what you have done.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKEWHAT WE ARE SEEING FOR GRANTED.
The problem with Dominance, and Historic Dominance is that it becomes expected and after a while it goes unnoticed.
What Tufts is doing now is Historic and will likely never ever be done again.
Shapiro is a genius and the entire country should take notice of this fact.
What Coach Bean did with his boys from Chicago is indeed why he is an Icon and why Wheaton is an legendary soccer powerhouse.
Wheaton won two titles but his work with the team between 1996-1999 is unbelievable. Wheaton racked up a still held record of 66 games undefeated the 1997 National Crown and a trip to the finals in 99 with an absolutely powerhouse squad.
After this Coach Bob Durocher and his boys from Canton NY went on a run of 60 games unbeaten and a National title in 99.
Like Wheaton there was a good style of play and what seemed an endless pipeline of talent and grit from players who almost refused to lose
Messiah can be split up into two eras, that of Brandt and Mccarthy.
Both are soccer wizards who can claim dynasties of their own which produced 11 National crowns almost evenly split and some of the best teams D3 soccer has ever seen.
Not to be forgotten is Dr. J who proved his brilliance and longevity with a crown in 97 as well as 11' while playing his football.
Russo also played some good football and climbed the mountain in 95 after barely failing in 93 by great recruiting and a terrific playing style pleasing to the eye.
Serpone just fell short but has also climbed the hill and has the devotion of each player who plays for him by fostering a family environment.
I say with all objectivity that what Shapiro and his boyz have done is the greatest feat to ever be accomplished in our sport and in our sport in this division.
In This era, sustained dominance is harder because the nation has caught up to the great programs of yester year.
There are more players to choose from and the game is taken much more seriously by players, administration, coaches, schools throughout the country.
Tufts, like Maradona's Napoli pre-80s had no name.
When you thought of NESCAC the name Williams and Amherst woud be brought up wayyyy before Tufts, Middlebury as well who had a championship under their belt. This man Shapiro changed that and has his team as the greatest dynasty ever.
What does Bean/Dr.J/Coach Durocher/Russo/Mccarty/Brandt/Serpone have in common?
Men who had ambition, dedicate wayyyyyy too much of their time to their cause and young men under their care, were young(when they began), motivated, loved their school to an insane degree and who were not just coaches, but psychologists, big brothers, Father figures to their players who would in turn run through walls for them.
Very long winded way of saying that Tufts are an excellent team. Hats off to them.
All hail the kings.
Well done Saint I was actually thinking about this same kind of topic while watching the game a 2nd time but in a slightly different way.
Shapiro is a genius and IMO is in a TOP TIER above all those other great Head Coaches you mentioned....
TOP TIER: Head Coaches just dominating their respective sports for a solid time period.....Anson Dorrance / Geno Auriemma types hopefully without the massive egos. Dave Urick the Hobart Mens Lax Coach who tore up D3 in the 80's we could go on and on...you get where I am going
-Brandt
-McCarty
-Shapiro
-Mike Parker (UNC Greensboro)
Next Tier: Fantastic Head Coaches that dominate on a regional level and a national level BUT for whatever reason (bad luck, injuries, player in-fighting, GK errors, etc etc were able to dominate regionally and win a NCAA Championship or 2 but NOT like the Head Coaches in my top tier
-Jay Martin
-Paul McGinlay
-Durocher
-Bill Rogers
-Coven
-Serpone
-Russo
-Derek Armstrong(UC San Diego)
-Saward
-Bean
-Berticelli (who also came close at Notre Dame and used to eat glass for fun--story for another day)
-Skip Roderick
-Tony Ochrimenko
-Dan Gilmore
you guys get my point...These coaches got their rings but oh it could have been even sweeter and with more rings but hey life is a crapshoot.
3rd Tier: Longtime Head Coaches who are/were fantastic and dominated regionally but just could not or have not gotten that NCAA ring..
-Souders---right now he is stuck here until Calvin gets a ring. Calvin has been deserving of 2-3 rings but again for whatever reason it has not happened and until it does...well.....
Sorry if I missed anyone in my 2nd tier but it brings me to Serpone....Right now he is in that 2nd tier and the question becomes can he get Amherst and himself in that 1st tier?
Regarding his press conference...He is not convincing me he will sleep like a baby...I know why he said it and times are changing but it pissed me off. I'd rather hear the opposite..Can you imagine a 7-0 Amherst Football team losing to a 7-0 Williams Football team and after the game in the presser EJ Mills(Head Ball Coach) says yea well we accomplished just enough this year for me to sleep like a baby tonight. Williams just waxed us but hey I'm good no worries I love these guys...Some alums and hopefully the AD would go thru the roof. I get it Men's Soccer is not Football but to downgrade the importance of that game and downplay his own teams subpar performance in the Final and to bundle it up into one big happy modern family where winning is not the most important thing is complete crap for me.
A couple more thoughts:
-Lind and Coleman are really big losses for Amherst. They are the heart and soul of that team and make the engine run so to speak. They are not the most talented players on the team but they are both gamers and winners and it is hard to replace that. Lind was a cagey player and like a couple others around the league knows how to get in his opponents head. Coleman busted his ass all over the field in every game I saw but last night was not his best game to go out on.
-I might have jumped the gun on full praise for Tufts Seigelstein as after watching the game again he must get tougher. Here we go again with these skill guys but he pulled out of 2 tackles and refused to stick on another. He is super skilled and I am confident in his vision but please work on this in the off season. Rojas will also be missed as along with Tasker he matured this year. I saw him turn his frustration on the field into positive energy rather than wild outbursts and horrific fouls. Where as two years ago he was not as disciplined but he calmed down and by the end of his Tufts career he looked as smooth as Kulcsar on the field. He is a fun player to watch and am curious what type of practice player he is/was? I still think he could be even better than he is and still improve. He is sneaky good in the air and gives great service and has a high soccer IQ but I wanna see it for 90 and never did..
Well... I suppose it's nicest when your boys are beaten by the National Champs. Especially when you took them to OT and held a lead for a solid period of time. Moral victories aren't important on paper, but they can have some impact on the minds. Hopefully this experience will provide another boost to W&L's confidence heading into next season. They bring back a lot, but the few they lose are big ones and will be missed.
Especially Co-captain Oliver Dolberg who has been at the heart of the team for a few years. Can't say enough about his leadership, effort and results every game. You always got 100% from Dolberg when he was on the field. Shout outs to co-captain Griffin Scott, who has been a stalwart in defense, and Kyce Darouiche who led the midfield. They played big rolls the last 2 and sometimes three years, all highly successful seasons for the Generals by any measure.
Finally, congrats to Tufts, Amherst, and the NESCAC. Year in and out that is one brutal conference. Just a step above right now. But I feel like W&L is inching closer to the big breakthrough.
Quote from: jknezek on December 09, 2019, 09:12:00 AM
Well... I suppose it's nicest when your boys are beaten by the National Champs. Especially when you took them to OT and held a lead for a solid period of time. Moral victories aren't important on paper, but they can have some impact on the minds. Hopefully this experience will provide another boost to W&L's confidence heading into next season. They bring back a lot, but the few they lose are big ones and will be missed.
Especially Co-captain Oliver Dolberg who has been at the heart of the team for a few years. Can't say enough about his leadership, effort and results every game. You always got 100% from Dolberg when he was on the field. Shout outs to co-captain Griffin Scott, who has been a stalwart in defense, and Kyce Darouiche who led the midfield. They played big rolls the last 2 and sometimes three years, all highly successful seasons for the Generals by any measure.
Finally, congrats to Tufts, Amherst, and the NESCAC. Year in and out that is one brutal conference. Just a step above right now. But I feel like W&L is inching closer to the big breakthrough.
I hope your time sitting on the cusp is shorter than this fan's. Seven years and counting. The journey can be tantalizing, exciting, fraught with things you can't anticipate, and at times heartbreaking disappointment. Great season for W&L, though....and at a minimum W&L should be "in the conversation" at least in the near term.
A few final thoughts...
Lind spent a lot of time on the ground. I presume that was very conscious on Tufts' part. I can't believe how much Tufts makes of the revenge factor. They embraced that idea in 2016 and again the other night after the winning another title. Losing in OT AT Amherst midseason when Amherst was probably a mild favorite at the time is cause for revenge? After knocking out Amherst in the NCAA tourney the year before 3-0? Anyway, that is pure genius if Tufts nation can embrace a "we owe them one" mentality in the midst of one of the greatest runs in D3 soccer history.
Amherst does have skill. I can never get a feel for them watching video of their home games because of the low camera angle. They could play more on the ground, and they could play short and do at least a few quick throw ins instead of waiting for Johnson to trek across the field EVERY SINGLE TIME. And Lind, aside from how physical or overly chippy he might be, is a skilled player, especially at his size. Tufts' attention to him I think prevented some service to GG.
To at least some degree Tufts benefits from Amherst's reputation for physical play, because if the focus wasn't so much on Amherst then Tufts might be viewed just a little differently. One of the commentators even noted that Tufts was playing more like Amherst than Amherst. Not that much has been made of the Braun elbow swing with a casted arm or for that matter the obvious hand ball on the second goal.
The NESCAC is even better than I thought top to bottom. You would think Tufts wins their games 4-0, 5-0, 6-0....but most of their matches, especially in conference are 1-0 or 2-1. Bates played them tight this year. Colby advanced by them in the NESCAC tourney last year. Maybe these bottom tier NESCAC teams would be at the top of a lot of other conferences.
Tufts' "midseason swoon" has been overhyped just a bit. They lost a trap game midweek to a NCAA team, then lost away to NCAA runnerup Amherst in OT, and then the next day tied Hamilton away which is not an unusual result. I sure didn't think Tufts was in any trouble or jeopardy at the time.
And I agree about the Serpone sleeping like a baby thing. He'll be thinking about that game every day until at least next September...or until he takes one of these coaching jobs.
Great chatter all around and glad to see Shapiro getting much deserved praise for this ridiculous run.
A hell of a season for Amherst, but could Tufts have written a more satisfying script?! 4 ships in 6 years and to cap it off against the long hated Jeffs brings me oh so much joy.
GO JUMBOSSSS #Dynasty
Paul Newman... I don't think that the revenge factor mattered in terms of motivation. Its the national championship game. It wouldn't matter if you were playing Amherst or a team they'd never seen before. You are 100% ready to go and the other team has nothing to do with motivation.
Instead Tufts just frankly doesn't like Amherst. This has less to do with the current team than really the alumni. You have to remember Tufts won a national championship before they won a game against Amherst. For a lot of the alumni, winning that first game against amherst on homecoming in 2016 was almost on par with the 2014 title. No matter the national success, Amherst had been the in conference bully, and during the early shapiro years they tormented those teams. The guys that played during those years won't forget that, and that has been passed down even to the current group. So long story short this isn't revenge for losing in OT this year... this is revenge for 2013 Amherst scoring a goal and ripping down the Tufts Parents sign and feigning taking a dog piss on it... its revenge for not beating them over a ten year span. But like I said for the current guys it didn't change the way they played or prepared for the game. But for the alumni it sure made saturday night sweeter.
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 09, 2019, 03:22:07 PM
Paul Newman... I don't think that the revenge factor mattered in terms of motivation. Its the national championship game. It wouldn't matter if you were playing Amherst or a team they'd never seen before. You are 100% ready to go and the other team has nothing to do with motivation.
Instead Tufts just frankly doesn't like Amherst. This has less to do with the current team than really the alumni. You have to remember Tufts won a national championship before they won a game against Amherst. For a lot of the alumni, winning that first game against amherst on homecoming in 2016 was almost on par with the 2014 title. No matter the national success, Amherst had been the in conference bully, and during the early shapiro years they tormented those teams. The guys that played during those years won't forget that, and that has been passed down even to the current group. So long story short this isn't revenge for losing in OT this year... this is revenge for 2013 Amherst scoring a goal and ripping down the Tufts Parents sign and feigning taking a dog piss on it... its revenge for not beating them over a ten year span. But like I said for the current guys it didn't change the way they played or prepared for the game. But for the alumni it sure made saturday night sweeter.
Fair enough....but did you see the Tufts press conference after the game? And in 2016 it was the same deal in the press conference but that was only with a Final Four berth on the line.
Congratulations, though. You, fellow alums, and the current group have every reason to feel proud and as you say "on the mountain top." I can't imagine that any of you ever thought things could be this good.
Three-peat?!
I think the press conference has two elements. First this team did want a shot at Amherst again because they thought they were truly better than them. And without getting to play them again they'd never be able to show that.
Second and this speaks to 2016 as well but as d3 athletes you don't get to do many press conferences so when you do guys fall into a lot of cliches to avoid rocking the boat. They also are going to try and be complimentary and deferential to the opponent, so citing how they wanted to get another shot after X team beat us last time is a natural response.
Finally, and in this way I will agree about the revenge element, no matter how successful you have been in the past losing in the tournament is painful. Even if you won 9 titles in a row, you have to sit in the locker room and watch the seniors on your team cry. So if you have the chance to avenge that moment the next season, it's gonna mean something regardless of your other successes.
Yep... Tufts won a national title before beating Amherst ... they also have more national titles than they have NESCAC tournament championships. Four national titles - 2 NESCAC titles. In fact, this was the first year Tufts combined for both in the same season.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B56UTR2pz6t/?igshid=ifkslxkwvje5
Tufts with a shoutout on ESPN
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 09, 2019, 04:57:00 PM
Second and this speaks to 2016 as well but as d3 athletes you don't get to do many press conferences so when you do guys fall into a lot of cliches to avoid rocking the boat. They also are going to try and be complimentary and deferential to the opponent, so citing how they wanted to get another shot after X team beat us last time is a natural response.
yup...deer in headlights type deal..still there is a way to finesse a jaw drop here or there without losing minutes. i'll give it to you its risky maybe we can put it on the list of team goals for Tufts 2020..
To chime in on Serpone's press conference I have several views.
First I agree with Mr. R...
This man did not sleep like a baby after losing the final, I think he massaged his true feelings for the benefit of two kids he loved who were next to him as well as the rest of the senior class.
He had to put the season in context and he knew these boyz were hurting alot after failing to climb the mountain after coming so very close.
Also, I do think he he was not hugely perturbed because he has already won a championship.
Losing in the dance hurts seniors a whole lot more than it does coaches, who must quickly switch to next season while seniors must master the game of transitioning from a good player to a good alumni.
Even seniors who have climbed the mountain before are destroyed when losing in the dance, and the closer they get to that chip the more it will hurt.
Bottom line is the boys from Amherst have alot to be sooo very proud of.
They are an undisputed National power who have a great tradition.
I have always questioned their playing style, but this season I saw some good football, and it seems they are evolving in a real ball playing teram.
Dont get me wrong, once you win a national championship, it matters not what style you play because you have proved yourself a winner and Amherst has.
Now, they still have to get that 2nd championship to be seen on the same level as Wheaton/OWU other programs that have won more than one title, then again so do my boyz from Canton and Trinity Texas and maybe a couple more programs I forgot.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 25, 2019, 05:07:38 PM
As long as the field meets the NCAA minimum, they are fine. Minimum is 70x115. Max 75x120 - unless built before 1995 ... but I think those are usually not allowed to host (unless extenuating circumstances).
If we are talking about weather making a grass field unplayable ... that happens. The weather in New England this weekend was ... well ... wicked! Not much one can do about that and I don't expect a committee to say, "well since weather could be lousy, Amherst shouldn't host."
The field hockey championships were played after snow was pushed off the field in Penn. this past weekend.
The field is part of the elements one has to adapt to in soccer ... it actually sucks, IMO, that there are so many turf fields now (with countless lines; side note, Sager ... you were seeing soccer, FH, and both lacrosse lines - the worst is when football is also on full display).
Per hosting, there are other things involved in hosting other than geography and "seeding." That doesn't mean Amherst didn't qualify. :)
Question: Would you know what happens if a "legacy" Head Coach decides to switch his field dimensions and then someday eventually leaves the program....Is the "legacy" program allowed to go back to the pre-1995 dimensions it originally had?
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 07, 2019, 02:31:42 PM
Speaking of the announcers -- who I commend for being honest when they don't know something or when they missed exactly what happened on a play and do an excellent job overall -- a really interesting moment in the Calvin-Tufts tilt was about 20+ minutes in McHugh commented that Calvin seemed to be dictating play and had an edge with Tufts scrambling a bit. I agreed with him but at the same time did not think Calvin was necessarily in good shape long term. Thor responded to McHugh's observation by hesitating and saying he needed a little more time to decide...and sure enough Tufts scored in the next 3-4 minutes. I didn't think Calvin was out of it then but by the second goal the game seemed over. The last time Calvin was down 2 goals was probably in a Sweet 16 game 2-3 years ago against Chicago.
Anyway, Tufts is very interesting that way and I assume it is intentional.. Whereas Amherst tries to overwhelm and steamroll you right out of the gate, Tufts seems to take their time, maybe engaging in a bit of rope-a-dope, and then gradually turns the screws like last night to the point that Calvin had zero space to operate. And it's at that point, I think versus Amherst and Tufts, that the other team looks like they are from a lower division and can hardly get the ball off their feet being suffocated. Maybe when all of this over Mr. Zinner can give us some insight into whether there is an overt strategy of "OK, let's do this the first 15-20 minutes and then hit this switch, and at 60 minutes hit this other switch, etc." Tufts' depth (where the 2nd 11 might well be a Sweet 16 team) is a key obviously, and to exaggerate just a tad the Jumbos seem to have at least one kid score every game that you didn't even know was on the roster.
Good observation Paul. I felt as if Tufts wasn't being outplayed but rather allowing its defense to contain Calvin until its offense could find an opening...which they did. And again. And again and then it was over. Tufts was too good to allow any team to truly dictate play; rather it was a chess match and they were waiting for one piece to make an imperfect move.
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 15, 2019, 08:16:54 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 25, 2019, 05:07:38 PM
As long as the field meets the NCAA minimum, they are fine. Minimum is 70x115. Max 75x120 - unless built before 1995 ... but I think those are usually not allowed to host (unless extenuating circumstances).
If we are talking about weather making a grass field unplayable ... that happens. The weather in New England this weekend was ... well ... wicked! Not much one can do about that and I don't expect a committee to say, "well since weather could be lousy, Amherst shouldn't host."
The field hockey championships were played after snow was pushed off the field in Penn. this past weekend.
The field is part of the elements one has to adapt to in soccer ... it actually sucks, IMO, that there are so many turf fields now (with countless lines; side note, Sager ... you were seeing soccer, FH, and both lacrosse lines - the worst is when football is also on full display).
Per hosting, there are other things involved in hosting other than geography and "seeding." That doesn't mean Amherst didn't qualify. :)
Question: Would you know what happens if a "legacy" Head Coach decides to switch his field dimensions and then someday eventually leaves the program....Is the "legacy" program allowed to go back to the pre-1995 dimensions it originally had?
Once the field is changed, the grandfather clause allowing them to have the smaller size is gone.
It has nothing to do with the program (or coach) it has to do with the facility.
Gallaudet used to be 100x50. They eventually have gone to a more modern set-up. They can't go back to the 100x50 field.
50 x 100? Holy cow!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 15, 2019, 11:44:55 PM
50 x 100? Holy cow!
Yeah ... it was insane to play on that field every other year. Us goalies were one-bouncing the opposing penalty box pretty often (or in my friend's case, the first bounce was sometimes in the opposing box).
It's not the short length that freaks me out, since 100 yards is still legal and I've seen D3 games played on such a short field -- it's the narrow width. Fifty yards is only two-thirds of the standard width. Heck, it's practically Lil Kickers width.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 17, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
It's not the short length that freaks me out, since 100 yards is still legal and I've seen D3 games played on such a short field -- it's the narrow width. Fifty yards is only two-thirds of the standard width. Heck, it's practically Lil Kickers width.
"anything wider than 30 yards is just showing off" - New York City FC
Quote from: Caz Bombers on December 17, 2019, 10:41:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 17, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
It's not the short length that freaks me out, since 100 yards is still legal and I've seen D3 games played on such a short field -- it's the narrow width. Fifty yards is only two-thirds of the standard width. Heck, it's practically Lil Kickers width.
"anything wider than 30 yards is just showing off" - New York City FC
Yes. The Yankee Stadium field is a joke. MLS did so well for a while getting teams into their own stadiums. Then they started to regress. NYFC's field situation is a joke and I really think Charlotte is a mistake. It's going to look more like New England than Atlanta in that football stadium...
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 17, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
It's not the short length that freaks me out, since 100 yards is still legal and I've seen D3 games played on such a short field -- it's the narrow width. Fifty yards is only two-thirds of the standard width. Heck, it's practically Lil Kickers width.
Yeah ... my freshman year we had the widest field at least in the Mid-Atlantic Region (I swear we measured if off many times to 80 yards, though that feels extreme). We would love having teams who liked to run or played on narrower fields come to our place ... because we would spread it out and wear the hell out of them. Gallaudet at our place was funny to watch sometimes.
Yeah, the narrow field was tough to play on. It also could have been slightly more than 50 yards, but it wasn't more than 60. It was like playing on a postage stamp.
Quote from: Jump4Joy on November 24, 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Copied from my post on NESCAC thread:
A strange day at Amherst, having to switch fields at halftime. If I'm Serpone, I definitely dig in and insist on playing on my home field as the home team. No faulting the decision, as Hitchcock Field--although tricky in spots--was deemed playable by officials before kick-off. Good job by all crews to get game going again on Gooding. Amherst deserved the win today. Congrats to RPI on a strong season.
RPI/Adam Clinton does not agree......The ref really put himself in a spot here.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pTpTTnQMT0