Alright we're finally at the best time of the year. Doesn't seem like there were too many huge shocks in regards to selections but that certainly won't be true of the games themselves.
Some op first round matchups in my mind:
1:Hopkins vs PSU-Harrisburg
2: Midd vs SUNY Oneonta
3: NYU vs St Joes
4:Calvin vs Rochester
5: Rowan vs Mt St vincent Over/under 5.5 yellow cards
Yeah, the Dolphins aren't very... dolphin-like.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 08, 2021, 02:45:31 PM
Alright we're finally at the best time of the year. Doesn't seem like there were too many huge shocks in regards to selections but that certainly won't be true of the games themselves.
Some op first round matchups in my mind:
1:Hopkins vs PSU-Harrisburg
2: Midd vs SUNY Oneonta
3: NYU vs St Joes
4:Calvin vs Rochester
5: Rowan vs Mt St vincent Over/under 5.5 yellow cards
With regard to #5, it depends on who the refs are. At this point, I would take the over if it is a ref from NY Metro area. If is a ref from New England, where no blood, no foul seems to reign, I will take the under.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 02:55:37 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 08, 2021, 02:45:31 PM
Alright we're finally at the best time of the year. Doesn't seem like there were too many huge shocks in regards to selections but that certainly won't be true of the games themselves.
Some op first round matchups in my mind:
1:Hopkins vs PSU-Harrisburg
2: Midd vs SUNY Oneonta
3: NYU vs St Joes
4:Calvin vs Rochester
5: Rowan vs Mt St vincent Over/under 5.5 yellow cards
With regard to #5, it depends on who the refs are. At this point, I would take the over if it is a ref from NY Metro area. If is a ref from New England, where no blood, no foul seems to reign, I will take the under.
And if the NCAA assigns referees from another area of the country (neither NY or New England), as sometimes the NCAA does for early rounds to have "fair, neutral" officiating-- like FIFA, UEFA, or CONCACAF does in assigning referees from a neutral country when clubs of different countries face off against one another? Would it be over or under then?
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 08, 2021, 02:45:31 PM
Alright we're finally at the best time of the year. Doesn't seem like there were too many huge shocks in regards to selections but that certainly won't be true of the games themselves.
Some op first round matchups in my mind:
1:Hopkins vs PSU-Harrisburg
2: Midd vs SUNY Oneonta
3: NYU vs St Joes
4:Calvin vs Rochester
5: Rowan vs Mt St vincent Over/under 5.5 yellow cards
Agree that all of these should be great first round games, I'm also intrigued by Swarthmore vs Stevens.
Looking ahead to the second round, my favorite potential matchups are:
Montclair St. vs WAC (get to see really how good CC champs are)
W&L vs. Denison (get to see if W&L is legit or overrated)
Messiah vs. Kenyon (early test for Nat'l Champ hopeful)
WashU vs. NP (rematch game)
Chicago vs. Otterbein (two good teams)
Ohio Wesleyan vs. Calvin (powerhouse programs)
Amherst vs. Babson (established programs from the North-East)
With regards to W&L, as was pretty well chronicled on the board the last 2-3 weeks... W&L needs to show something radically different than the way they've come out recently or they won't get out of the first game, let alone match-up with a pesky Denison squad.
The pressure of being #1 in the country combined with usual end-of-year jitters has them decidedly on their back foot.
Can we just put Tufts in the Final Four, already. What a draw, unless Montclair can get to the Tufts game, show up for real, and keep their cool for 90 minutes. St Joe's will beat NYU and Conn, and Tufts will get St. Joe's in the Elite 8. And if possible, Amherst got an even better draw...put them in the Elite 8 without breaking a sweat. W&L's draw is excellent as well. I like John Carroll's draw.
St. Olaf got no favors...potential 2nd round with North Central and then North Park or Wash U likely, and then OWU or Chicago or Calvin waiting in Elite 8.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 05:23:15 PM
Can we just put Tufts in the Final Four, already. What a draw, unless Montclair can get to the Tufts game, show up for real, and keep their cool for 90 minutes.
Based on their 2018 performance when they were 3-0 down inside 20 minutes and 4-0 down inside 35, that doesn't seem like smart money, lol.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 08, 2021, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 05:23:15 PM
Can we just put Tufts in the Final Four, already. What a draw, unless Montclair can get to the Tufts game, show up for real, and keep their cool for 90 minutes.
Based on their 2018 performance when they were 3-0 down inside 20 minutes and 4-0 down inside 35, that doesn't seem like smart money, lol.
Exactly!
Tufts has earned the right to play at home until they either make the Final Four or bow out. It is intriguing the committee has allowed for a possible third match-up (rubber game) with Conn College for the right to go to the Final Four. A lot of work to do for both those teams before that can happen though... I agree, Amherst has a favorable draw to the Elite 8. The question is will they host the third and fourth round games. Seems like that decision could go in a few directions.
Agreed, Tufts absolutely deserves (this time) to host to the Final Four, but look at who some other very top teams have to play by the second round.
Of course I can't deny how favorable the Kenyon draw is. As a Lords All American just texted me, if Kenyon can survive Catholic then a second round match-up with Mt Aloysius "shouldn't be too bad."
Also can't believe if form holds the cmte is again sending Trinity to Boston, New London, NYC, or an island off the coast of Maine in the Bay of Labrador. Brutal.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 06:25:25 PM
Agreed, Tufts absolutely deserves (this time) to host to the Final Four, but look at who some other very top teams have to play by the second round.
Of course I can't deny how favorable the Kenyon draw is. As a Lords All American just texted me, if Kenyon can survive Catholic then a second round match-up with Mt Aloysius "shouldn't be too bad."
:D :D
Yep Kenyon-Messiah has to be the matchup of the second rd if it comes to pass. I think for whatever reason Kenyon were constantly underrated this year in the polls. I also think losing to Denison really cost them in terms of hosting and matchups. That being said, you're gonna have to get through one of the current big 4 eventually so may as well knock it out early.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 08, 2021, 07:02:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 06:25:25 PM
Agreed, Tufts absolutely deserves (this time) to host to the Final Four, but look at who some other very top teams have to play by the second round.
Of course I can't deny how favorable the Kenyon draw is. As a Lords All American just texted me, if Kenyon can survive Catholic then a second round match-up with Mt Aloysius "shouldn't be too bad."
:D :D
Yep Kenyon-Messiah has to be the matchup of the second rd if it comes to pass. I think for whatever reason Kenyon were constantly underrated this year in the polls. I also think losing to Denison really cost them in terms of hosting and matchups. That being said, you're gonna have to get through one of the current big 4 eventually so may as well knock it out early.
LOL. D4, you are a very blessed young man. Did you already book your flight to Greensboro? Be honest! What other teams can say they had a right back score the first goal in a national semi (OWU) and then a left back score the first goal in another national semi another year (vs St Thomas, correct?)?
I mean come on, Tufts second round probably gets a team nobody even had making the tournament. They weren't even in the "off the bubble" category.
And yes, absolutely, if I'm gonna be miserable, end my misery early! I'm actually excited. No predictions, except to predict if it happens Kenyon-Messiah will be one of the top 3 games of the whole tournament. Truth be told, I doubt Messiah is happy about it.
And yes, I think they paid a heavy price for the Denison loss. Bianco is laughing all the way to the bank. Can't stand that guy! That said they weren't gonna get past OWU in the RRs, and I prefer this to getting OWU 2nd round (which shows you just how deep my trauma with OWU is haha).
And yes, absolutely, expect me for the next few days to make a few meals out of the disrespecting Kenyon angle. Unreal how they were treated all season on ESPN, CNN, Fox, D3soccer.com, Denison and OWU recaps, etc, etc.
I speculate the Messiah boys are anxious and gnawing at the bit to have the chance to compete so early in the tournament. Especially against the quality side that Kenyon is. First round is the focus though, can't start looking ahead which is the cool part about the tournament. Take it one game at a time.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 08, 2021, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 05:23:15 PM
Can we just put Tufts in the Final Four, already. What a draw, unless Montclair can get to the Tufts game, show up for real, and keep their cool for 90 minutes.
Based on their 2018 performance when they were 3-0 down inside 20 minutes and 4-0 down inside 35, that doesn't seem like smart money, lol.
Yeah, I think you and I were at that game, and one thing MSU definitely did not do was to keep their cool for 90 minutes, or even 19 minutes.
Swat of course might not get by Stevens, but if so would be two Shin brothers going against each other.
And how did the Centennial get 5 teams? Is the Centennial the new NESCAC or UAA? NESCAC couldn't even get 5.
Btw, CSO, congrats on Midd getting in. Feel really bad for Wesleyan but both were deserving especially that too many from conference isn't capped.
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
That made me look at Midd's draw. I gonna call it right now. Middlebury is going to the Final 4....at least Elite 8. Nobody they can't beat in that whole quadrant. If they can get by Oneonta I think they'll beat F&M, and probably fairly easily. And then maybe a mirror image like John Carroll that is beatable, and even if Amherst is still standing Midd knows it can beat Amherst on the day.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 06:33:38 PM
Also can't believe if form holds the cmte is again sending Trinity to Boston, New London, NYC, or an island off the coast of Maine in the Bay of Labrador. Brutal.
Well, that's pretty typical for the NCAA. At least the Trinity men get to hold a first/second round playoff round; their women's volleyball team, ranked #2 in the country, 30-2, 11-2 vs. RROs, 0.621 SOS got shunted off to New Jersey where the hosts are unranked, 26-5, 8-5 vs RROs, .566 SOS.
That does stink and is definitely unfair. But on the other hand nothing was more fun than those road trip weekends
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 08, 2021, 10:01:02 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 06:33:38 PM
Also can't believe if form holds the cmte is again sending Trinity to Boston, New London, NYC, or an island off the coast of Maine in the Bay of Labrador. Brutal.
Well, that's pretty typical for the NCAA. At least the Trinity men get to hold a first/second round playoff round; their women's volleyball team, ranked #2 in the country, 30-2, 11-2 vs. RROs, 0.621 SOS got shunted off to New Jersey where the hosts are unranked, 26-5, 8-5 vs RROs, .566 SOS.
I assume the answer is yes, but have Trinity and other West region schools complained about this? Totally impact RvR too. I know some teams will come East for 2 games but that doesn't guarantee anything and costs a lot of money. I remember being surprised when state school UMass-Boston went to the West Coast. We always hear the money aspect, but the NCAA has tons and tons of money.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 08, 2021, 10:09:40 PM
That does stink and is definitely unfair. But on the other hand nothing was more fun than those road trip weekends
It is actually is unfair. Within the past 10 posts we've seen a defense of Tufts hosting which they deserve. But you don't see people saying Trinity fully deserves to host.
@PN, it's all about money. West coast/Texas/isolated schools have dealt with this for decades. If you put something in TX or the WC after the first couple of rounds everyone but the host has to fly. That costs big $ and travel dollars are a primary factor when putting the brackets and especially deciding who hosts. NCAA Div III only has so much money to spend, unfortunately.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 08, 2021, 10:38:34 PM
@PN, it's all about money. West coast/Texas/isolated schools have dealt with this for decades. If you put something in TX or the WC after the first couple of rounds everyone but the host has to fly. That costs big $ and travel dollars are a primary factor when putting the brackets and especially deciding who hosts. NCAA Div III only has so much money to spend, unfortunately.
Yeah, I know that's the reason. But are you endorsing that D3 shouldn't get more money? And/or that the NCAA doesn't have the money?
At this point, I'm sure every other year or every third year would be appreciated.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
That made me look at Midd's draw. I gonna call it right now. Middlebury is going to the Final 4....at least Elite 8. Nobody they can't beat in that whole quadrant. If they can get by Oneonta I think they'll beat F&M, and probably fairly easily. And then maybe a mirror image like John Carroll that is beatable, and even if Amherst is still standing Midd knows it can beat Amherst on the day.
It will be difficult for Middlebury. I am betting if Oneonta is not as strong as years past they will sit in a bit. F&M we have heard from SimpleCoach has no problem sitting in, blasting and pressing and it is their field. If Midd continues to struggle scoring goals they will get ousted. However, you are correct they have the talent to get out of the weekend and progress from there. Still that has not happened in over a decade so they will need to be ready to play and focused on the game. The D4PACEMAKER is correct as it is really fun for the players to be together on the road and for some teams the bonding helps the play on the field. Still you always would want to play on your Home Field in front of your supporters. Lastly, do not sleep on SUNY POLY as I caught like 10-15 minutes this weekend and they have a couple good players.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 06:37:40 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
That made me look at Midd's draw. I gonna call it right now. Middlebury is going to the Final 4....at least Elite 8. Nobody they can't beat in that whole quadrant. If they can get by Oneonta I think they'll beat F&M, and probably fairly easily. And then maybe a mirror image like John Carroll that is beatable, and even if Amherst is still standing Midd knows it can beat Amherst on the day.
It will be difficult for Middlebury. I am betting if Oneonta is not as strong as years past they will sit in a bit. F&M we have heard from SimpleCoach has no problem sitting in, blasting and pressing and it is their field. If Midd continues to struggle scoring goals they will get ousted. However, you are correct they have the talent to get out of the weekend and progress from there. Still that has not happened in over a decade so they will need to be ready to play and focused on the game. The D4PACEMAKER is correct as it is really fun for the players to be together on the road and for some teams the bonding helps the play on the field. Still you always would want to play on your Home Field in front of your supporters. Lastly, do not sleep on SUNY POLY as I caught like 10-15 minutes this weekend and they have a couple good players.
The unfortunate blueprint for Midd over the past several years has been to give up an early and sometimes soft goal and then having to work all game towards an equalizer. If successful, Midd has then surrendered a go ahead goal soon after. The result has been an early exit. If Midd can score first, I like their chances. I would also favor them in PK situations.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 10:47:41 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 08, 2021, 10:38:34 PM
@PN, it's all about money. West coast/Texas/isolated schools have dealt with this for decades. If you put something in TX or the WC after the first couple of rounds everyone but the host has to fly. That costs big $ and travel dollars are a primary factor when putting the brackets and especially deciding who hosts. NCAA Div III only has so much money to spend, unfortunately.
Yeah, I know that's the reason. But are you endorsing that D3 shouldn't get more money? And/or that the NCAA doesn't have the money?
At this point, I'm sure every other year or every third year would be appreciated.
The NCAA allocates 3.18% of its revenue to D3, and the newly proposed constitution released yesterday further codifies that amount. Would I like more money to be allocated? Would the D3 membership? Of course. But with the turmoil in D1, where all the money comes from, the chances of any increase is about the same as my employer offering to double my salary tomorrow.
As far as the "make it fair instead of focused primarily on travel dollar" once every few years, that would be wonderful, but it would have to be (a) proposed by one or more conferences and (b) approved by the entire Division III membership, and I can't see the majority of conferences who actually benefit from the current policy (by getting more hosting bids than they have earned) signing off on such a proposal. And any such proposal would have to come with a way to pay for itself since the total dollars available aren't going to change.
I'm afraid that once the current contract for D1 men's March Madness expires that the Power Five conferences are going to decide it's time to take their ball and run, removing most of the NCAA's current revenue stream. These may end up being the glory days (64 teams? Travel and other expenses paid for?) we look fondly upon, warts and all.
Quote from: maineman on November 09, 2021, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 06:37:40 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
That made me look at Midd's draw. I gonna call it right now. Middlebury is going to the Final 4....at least Elite 8. Nobody they can't beat in that whole quadrant. If they can get by Oneonta I think they'll beat F&M, and probably fairly easily. And then maybe a mirror image like John Carroll that is beatable, and even if Amherst is still standing Midd knows it can beat Amherst on the day.
It will be difficult for Middlebury. I am betting if Oneonta is not as strong as years past they will sit in a bit. F&M we have heard from SimpleCoach has no problem sitting in, blasting and pressing and it is their field. If Midd continues to struggle scoring goals they will get ousted. However, you are correct they have the talent to get out of the weekend and progress from there. Still that has not happened in over a decade so they will need to be ready to play and focused on the game. The D4PACEMAKER is correct as it is really fun for the players to be together on the road and for some teams the bonding helps the play on the field. Still you always would want to play on your Home Field in front of your supporters. Lastly, do not sleep on SUNY POLY as I caught like 10-15 minutes this weekend and they have a couple good players.
The unfortunate blueprint for Midd over the past several years has been to give up an early and sometimes soft goal and then having to work all game towards an equalizer. If successful, Midd has then surrendered a go ahead goal soon after. The result has been an early exit. If Midd can score first, I like their chances. I would also favor them in PK situations.
My analysis of games in 2019 and 2021 in which Midd has given up goals:
2019
Conn (W 2-1) Went ahead early, gave up an equalizer, won on pk in OT
Amherst (T 1-1) Went ahead early, gave up an equalizer in 2nd half with GK having man of the match performance with 10 saves
Bates (L 0-1) Gave up goal in 37th
Colby (T 1-1) Went up 1-0, tying goal in 19th min
Tufts (L 1-2) Went up 1-0, tying goal in 79th, winning goal in OT. Midd GK with some spectacular saves including a PK save
Williams (T 1-1) Went behind in 55th and tied game in 64th
Tufts (L 1-2) Went behind in 58th, tied game in 78th, gave up go ahead goal in 88th. Another game that was dominated by Tufts
2021
Wesleyan (W 3-1) gave up a goal in 2nd minute, equalized less than 30 seconds later, took the lead in 35th, added insurance goal in 90th
Conn (L 0-1) PK goal in 86th min
Amherst (L 0-1) conceded in 22nd
Colby (L 1-2) Went ahead in 27th, wasted numerous chances to build on lead, conceded in 62nd, game winner of an indirect free kick in the penalty area in 73rd
Keene State (W 3-1). Went ahead, gave up equalizer in 47th, retook lead in 50th, insurance tally in 81st
Tufts (L 0-1) Gave up goal in 36th
Takeaways:
Playing from behind is indeed difficult for Midd, as they have no come from behind victories besides Wes this year and a tie from a losing position vs Williams in 2019. I would quibble with the characterization of giving up soft goals. This team has allowed only 7 goals in 17 games in 2021, one on a PK and one on an IFK in the box from dead center. In 2019 they gave up 11 goals in 20 games. As a fan, the big differences has been in the quality of the performances. In both games vs Tufts in 2021, Midd was on the front foot for long stretches. That was never the case in 2019, when it felt like they were trying to hang on and steal a goal on a counter. They have had some excellent opportunities, but have been thwarted by excellent goal keeping (see Lauta last week, Devanny in NESCAC quarters) or some bad luck (Sloan's shot striking the crossbar and bouncing straight down and out) Would love to see xG for Midd games. My hunch is that they have underperformed their xG.
Midd has strong D and goalkeeping, and they are not prolific offensively. As a result, they are in every game.
One other stat: Midd on grass this year (2-3-1 losses @Conn, @Colby, vs Tufts @Conn) Midd on turf this year (8-1-2) This weekend's games are on turf.
Quote from: D3SoccerTalker on November 08, 2021, 09:18:07 PM
I speculate the Messiah boys are anxious and gnawing at the bit to have the chance to compete so early in the tournament. Especially against the quality side that Kenyon is. First round is the focus though, can't start looking ahead which is the cool part about the tournament. Take it one game at a time.
Alright, I've resisted but I'm going to go out and call the upset of the first round is Catholic over Kenyon (I'm biased).
Of course there is at least a little logic behind this thought and not just total bias; Catholic is playing their best soccer of the season and Kenyon could easily overlook them with the thought of a show down with Messiah on Sunday. Catholic breezed through their conference playoffs albeit not against the best competition but they had 6 GF and 0 GA. They also scored two set piece goals off corners in the final which is all it could take to pull the upset against Kenyon. They also have a core of players who have been to the tournament before (another brutal draw with JHU and Conn College back in 2019) so that experience never hurts. I've said it before but their center backs are the weakest part of their team - they tend to be pretty careless on the ball - so I am definitely concerned that they will be exposed, however if they can just keep it simple in the back they might have a chance.
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 09, 2021, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: maineman on November 09, 2021, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 06:37:40 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 08, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
Thanks. Will be in attendance at F & M this weekend. Anxious to see some different teams.
That made me look at Midd's draw. I gonna call it right now. Middlebury is going to the Final 4....at least Elite 8. Nobody they can't beat in that whole quadrant. If they can get by Oneonta I think they'll beat F&M, and probably fairly easily. And then maybe a mirror image like John Carroll that is beatable, and even if Amherst is still standing Midd knows it can beat Amherst on the day.
It will be difficult for Middlebury. I am betting if Oneonta is not as strong as years past they will sit in a bit. F&M we have heard from SimpleCoach has no problem sitting in, blasting and pressing and it is their field. If Midd continues to struggle scoring goals they will get ousted. However, you are correct they have the talent to get out of the weekend and progress from there. Still that has not happened in over a decade so they will need to be ready to play and focused on the game. The D4PACEMAKER is correct as it is really fun for the players to be together on the road and for some teams the bonding helps the play on the field. Still you always would want to play on your Home Field in front of your supporters. Lastly, do not sleep on SUNY POLY as I caught like 10-15 minutes this weekend and they have a couple good players.
The unfortunate blueprint for Midd over the past several years has been to give up an early and sometimes soft goal and then having to work all game towards an equalizer. If successful, Midd has then surrendered a go ahead goal soon after. The result has been an early exit. If Midd can score first, I like their chances. I would also favor them in PK situations.
My analysis of games in 2019 and 2021 in which Midd has given up goals:
2019
Conn (W 2-1) Went ahead early, gave up an equalizer, won on pk in OT
Amherst (T 1-1) Went ahead early, gave up an equalizer in 2nd half with GK having man of the match performance with 10 saves
Bates (L 0-1) Gave up goal in 37th
Colby (T 1-1) Went up 1-0, tying goal in 19th min
Tufts (L 1-2) Went up 1-0, tying goal in 79th, winning goal in OT. Midd GK with some spectacular saves including a PK save
Williams (T 1-1) Went behind in 55th and tied game in 64th
Tufts (L 1-2) Went behind in 58th, tied game in 78th, gave up go ahead goal in 88th. Another game that was dominated by Tufts
2021
Wesleyan (W 3-1) gave up a goal in 2nd minute, equalized less than 30 seconds later, took the lead in 35th, added insurance goal in 90th
Conn (L 0-1) PK goal in 86th min
Amherst (L 0-1) conceded in 22nd
Colby (L 1-2) Went ahead in 27th, wasted numerous chances to build on lead, conceded in 62nd, game winner of an indirect free kick in the penalty area in 73rd
Keene State (W 3-1). Went ahead, gave up equalizer in 47th, retook lead in 50th, insurance tally in 81st
Tufts (L 0-1) Gave up goal in 36th
Takeaways:
Playing from behind is indeed difficult for Midd, as they have no come from behind victories besides Wes this year and a tie from a losing position vs Williams in 2019. I would quibble with the characterization of giving up soft goals. This team has allowed only 7 goals in 17 games in 2021, one on a PK and one on an IFK in the box from dead center. In 2019 they gave up 11 goals in 20 games. As a fan, the big differences has been in the quality of the performances. In both games vs Tufts in 2021, Midd was on the front foot for long stretches. That was never the case in 2019, when it felt like they were trying to hang on and steal a goal on a counter. They have had some excellent opportunities, but have been thwarted by excellent goal keeping (see Lauta last week, Devanny in NESCAC quarters) or some bad luck (Sloan's shot striking the crossbar and bouncing straight down and out) Would love to see xG for Midd games. My hunch is that they have underperformed their xG.
Midd has strong D and goalkeeping, and they are not prolific offensively. As a result, they are in every game.
One other stat: Midd on grass this year (2-3-1 losses @Conn, @Colby, vs Tufts @Conn) Midd on turf this year (8-1-2) This weekend's games are on turf.
Good point Observer, the turf should help Midd. Also, looking at size, Midd would appear to have a height advantage which should help them with 50-50 balls.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 10:01:02 AM
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Thanks for posting, and pursuant to what Ron B. said above about the state of the NCAA and their future revenue risk, organizations like the ECAC may become more relavent if D3 travel funds become even more scarce. In terms of major sporting organizations, the NCAA competes with the NFL for the honor of being my least favorite.
The big questions going forward: is there anybody less lazy than me that would set up a bracketology for the forum? I don't have the time to administer a contest, but I'd donate a $50 gift card of some sort to the winner. Any takers?
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 10:01:02 AM
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Thanks for posting, and pursuant to what Ron B. said above about the state of the NCAA and their future revenue risk, organizations like the ECAC may become more relavent if D3 travel funds become even more scarce. In terms of major sporting organizations, the NCAA competes with the NFL for the honor of being my least favorite.
The big questions going forward: is there anybody less lazy than me that would set up a bracketology for the forum? I don't have the time to administer a contest, but I'd donate a $50 gift card of some sort to the winner. Any takers?
Having run a few of these in the past for my office at March Madness... you ought to donate the gift card to the poor fool who offers to run it! There is probably some software out there that makes it easier, but then you need everyone to use the software. I volunteered 3x, never again...
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2021, 10:35:30 AM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 10:01:02 AM
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Thanks for posting, and pursuant to what Ron B. said above about the state of the NCAA and their future revenue risk, organizations like the ECAC may become more relavent if D3 travel funds become even more scarce. In terms of major sporting organizations, the NCAA competes with the NFL for the honor of being my least favorite.
The big questions going forward: is there anybody less lazy than me that would set up a bracketology for the forum? I don't have the time to administer a contest, but I'd donate a $50 gift card of some sort to the winner. Any takers?
Having run a few of these in the past for my office at March Madness... you ought to donate the gift card to the poor fool who offers to run it! There is probably some software out there that makes it easier, but then you need everyone to use the software. I volunteered 3x, never again...
Haha. That's a better suggestion, and I'll take your advice and offer it to the
poor fool *brilliant public servant* who offers to run it!
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 10:01:02 AM
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Thanks for posting, and pursuant to what Ron B. said above about the state of the NCAA and their future revenue risk, organizations like the ECAC may become more relavent if D3 travel funds become even more scarce.
Unfortunately, there
are no other organizations like the ECAC, and the ECAC is relevant only for the northeastern part of the country. In the midwest, south, and far west, once your season's done, it's done ... unless you make the D3 tourney.
The only exceptions are in football, where this season two conferences (the CCIW and the WIAC) will begin holding an annual post-season bowl game, the Culver's Isthmus Bowl, for the highest-finishing team in each league that didn't make the D3 playoffs; and, for the five (soon to be six) schools that are dual members of NCAA D3 and the NCCAA, the annual NCCAA national tournaments in various sports.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 10:25:35 AMIn terms of major sporting organizations, the NCAA competes with the NFL for the honor of being my least favorite.
Amen to that.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 09, 2021, 09:51:21 AM
Quote from: D3SoccerTalker on November 08, 2021, 09:18:07 PM
I speculate the Messiah boys are anxious and gnawing at the bit to have the chance to compete so early in the tournament. Especially against the quality side that Kenyon is. First round is the focus though, can't start looking ahead which is the cool part about the tournament. Take it one game at a time.
Alright, I've resisted but I'm going to go out and call the upset of the first round is Catholic over Kenyon (I'm biased).
Of course there is at least a little logic behind this thought and not just total bias; Catholic is playing their best soccer of the season and Kenyon could easily overlook them with the thought of a show down with Messiah on Sunday. Catholic breezed through their conference playoffs albeit not against the best competition but they had 6 GF and 0 GA. They also scored two set piece goals off corners in the final which is all it could take to pull the upset against Kenyon. They also have a core of players who have been to the tournament before (another brutal draw with JHU and Conn College back in 2019) so that experience never hurts. I've said it before but their center backs are the weakest part of their team - they tend to be pretty careless on the ball - so I am definitely concerned that they will be exposed, however if they can just keep it simple in the back they might have a chance.
Very fair take, and I will be coming back to this one, but for now I'll just say that your reasoning is sound with the caveat that your narrative would be even stronger if Kenyon had won the NCAC tournament. I have no idea if they will or not and thoughts of Messiah are certainly seductive, but after Kenyon's failure Saturday which was inexcusable the Lords should come out on fire. But if Catholic can weather the first 30 minutes without conceding and better yet can get one on the counter and/or a set piece, then you may be in business.
Anyone care to give their take on how far Dominican might go in this tournament?
PN's MRI Scan of the 2021 bracket...
I think I'm going to do these in quadrants...and why not stick with my favorite topic, Tufts, and the Tufts bracket?
I already complained about the Tufts draw, so this may seem counter-intuitive, but if you're gonna pick off the Jumbos do it early and when not expected. Following this logic, I'd give Montclair a better chance in the Sweet 16 round as opposed to the Elite 8. But earlier than that would be even better. The Swat/Stevens winner may have as good a chance as anyone thereafter...catching Tufts while they're all still basking in their NESCAC title and worrying about how they'll get their second and third cousins tickets and lodging for Greensboro.
Montclair is likely to be picked by many for an upset, but they're at home so I see them surviving although a match with red-hot Wash College would be interesting. However, SLU also is hot and feeling all pumped up after a drought, and SLU-Wash Coll feels like more of a pick'em game. I just think that either way Montclair has too much firepower to lose at home during the opening weekend.
I misread what our Trinity friend wrote...that at least Trinity was getting to host a pod. Not true. They're heading to Washington state, and if the Tigers survive (or whoever survives) will be trekking all the way to the other coast. I'm not sure Trinity comes out of that pod, and not because they are chronically overrated as some have alleged. Pac Lutheran is a legit, tough 1st round game. The Lutes had a minute in the sunshine about 6-7 weeks ago but again became an afterthought following a couple of setbacks. Redlands always is pretty good and iirc correctly was in the Elite 8 a few years ago and nearly beat Chicago or St Thomas (MN), but I could be off a little on that. i know nothing about Concordia (TX), other than they are like one of 10 Concordias across the country, and I'm not going to try to learn more now, or at least until they barge into the Sweet 16.
At the bottom of the quadrant Conn Coll has a ton of momentum despite the Tufts loss (and are the only team to beat Tufts this year), and they have home field where apparently their support has been palpable. The St Joe's-NYU game will be a popular upset pick, and NYU has been reeling here towards the end of the season. My sense is that St Joe's isn't quite as strong as in recent years past, but still, this one could go either way. I think Conn has too much to get knocked out by St Joe's and I like Conn against NYU as well.
Once at the Sweet 16 level, presumably at Tufts, I have to think Montclair would fare better than the game they've been pummeled about, and as I said, I like Montclair a little more here with Tufts than the Elite 8. Still think Tufts will prevail but the Jumbos will have take Montclair seriously and resist being overly influenced by their last match-up. Especially at Tufts where Conn should be comfortable, I don't see a Region 10 team knocking Conn out.
If we get Tufts-Conn in the Elite 8, Conn certainly has enough talent to win. But will they? I have my doubts. Getting the first goal would certainly help.
The Trinity *women* are getting to host a pod for the first time since 2015, my bad for mixing that up. And because they are, the men get sent on the road as the NCAA only allows either men or women to host in a given weekend based on even or odd year.
OK, now the Wash U, Chicago, OWU bracket. My initial impression is that this is the group of death. I don't see a clear-cut Final Four team in the quadrant, but rather NINE Elite 8-type teams (Wash U, North Park, St Olaf, Chicago, North Central, Otterbein, OWU, Rochester and Calvin). Favorites Wash U and Chicago notably are NOT hosting. And there are some very tricky 1st round games. North Park has Carleton who just beat St Olaf. Chicago has Webster which at 18-1-2 may be this year's St Joe's. Otterbein, who is hosting, gets Trine. Now us East Coasters know less than nothing about Trine and will see the 12-7-1 record and just reflexively advance Otterbein. But perhaps second only to what Denison pulled off, Trine beat Calvin and KZoo back to back (including away both times and with KZoo knowing they had to have the game). Trine also blew out DePauw 5-0 and tied Hope. Here's a little nugget for Chicago...Webster beat Trine. And, in a bit of serendipity, Trine played Otterbein at Otterbein earlier in the season, lost 2-0, and picked up 5 yellow cards. It's never easy to beat a team twice, especially a team on a roll. And of course I'm sure many have circled the first round match-up with Calvin and Rochester, two teams with recent Final Four experience who never expect 1st round exits.
If form follows (which no doubt it won't), the 2nd round matches here are outstanding. I would consider Wash U vs North Park a coin flip and obviously this game would be at North Park. That could be an Elite 8/national semi type game. St Olaf vs North Central would pit two squads with sterling records against each other, and that likely would be a 1-0, 2-1, or 0-0 type tilt. Chicago in the 2nd round would have to knock off Otterbein, a team that doesn't lose, at Otterbein. OWU versus Calvin or Rochester also feels like a coin flip, although OWU loves playing at home under the lights and will have 1000+ supporters in attendance.
As for the Elite 8 and getting to the Final Four, I don't see a single clear favorite. Calvin could lose to Rochester or go to the Final Four. OWU has had a great year and is due for a big run. Wash U, North Park and Chicago are all reasonable choices. I suppose I'd be mildly surprised by St Olaf or Otterbein getting to the Final Four, but I could see either making the Elite 8. This quad I'm sure will need a thorough review with revisions after the 1st weekend.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 09, 2021, 01:55:20 PM
The Trinity *women* are getting to host a pod for the first time since 2015, my bad for mixing that up. And because they are, the men get sent on the road as the NCAA only allows either men or women to host in a given weekend based on even or odd year.
LOL. I feel like we should send you a hotline number.
Quote from: WLCALUM83 on November 09, 2021, 01:07:21 PM
Anyone care to give their take on how far Dominican might go in this tournament?
One-and-done is a fairly safe guess.
Dominican has done absolutely nothing to warrant anybody's respect this season. In times past, when the Stars were a legit power, they made up for their lack of quality games within the NACC by playing a challenging non-conference schedule. That policy got kicked to the curb a few years ago, IMO to the program's detriment. This is who the Stars played this season outside their circuit:
*
Knox (12-6) Okay, so the Prairie Fire won the MWC regular season and tournament, and as a result get to be Ohio Wesleyan's sacrificial lamb in central Ohio this weekend. But let's not make too big a thing out of this one. Knox lost all but one game outside of its league, and that lone win was over a thorougly mediocre Wartburg squad.Dominican 1, Knox 0*
Elmhurst (8-8-2) The Bluejays finished in the middle of the CCIW pack and failed to qualify for the CCIW tourney. Given the proximity of the two schools and their athletic department ties (Dominican women's soccer head coach Carlos Carillo is married to Elmhurst women's basketball head coach Tethnie Carillo), it makes sense that the Stars and the Bluejays play each other in various sports. But, despite belonging to the best D3 soccer league in the area, Elmhurst is no soccer power.Elmhurst 3, Dominican 2*
Lake Forest (4-13-1) This used to be a respectable game, given that Lake Forest was more or less an average local D3 squad that finished regularly in the top half of the MWC. However, the Foresters bottomed out completely this year outside of MWC play and ended up with that atrocious record after going 0-8-1 to start the season in non-con play. This is no crime on Dominican's part in and of itself, because you can't always make allowances for a future opponent that happens to crater the same season that you play them. However ...Dominican 4, Lake Forest 1*
Lake Forest (4-13-1) ... the problem is that Dominican played Lake Forest twice. And back-to-back, at that. And on consecutive days, too.Dominican 3, Lake Forest 1*
North Central (18-1-1) Canceled, at Dominican's request. Figures.If you're an ambitious NACC coach, when you only get four or five non-conference games to make up for your lackluster league schedule, you try to schedule quality opponents that will improve your team and better prepare them for NACC play as well as burnish your post-season credentials. Dominican doesn't do that anymore. Therefore, nothing that the Stars have done to date warrants thinking of them as anything but first-round fodder for a very tough St. Olaf team smarting from an unexpected MIAC tourney final loss to crosstown rival Carleton, an Oles squad that will certainly offer no quarter to the Stars this Saturday up in Minnesota.
Now on to the Amherst and I suppose John Carroll and/or F&M quadrant.
For starters, feels like Amherst has not played in a month and who knows if that will help or hurt. From an Amherst perspective, I'm not sure you could have dreamed of a better draw. That said, I do NOT think Amherst is the #4 team in the country. I over-ranked the Mammoths early and I suppose I could be under-ranking them now, but I would put them somewhere in the #9 to #15 range. And for a player of such notoriety, Giammattei has had a relatively quiet campaign. If Amherst was in the quad above this one in the bracket, I'd add Amherst to the list 9 legit contenders. But here, they're still the favorite, even if modestly over-rated.
As for key 1st round games, Babson vs Cabrini feels like a potential trap match. I want Babson to win almost solely because Amherst deserves a serious challenge and I think Babson could give them one. Gettysburg vs Kean is one of the more interesting 1st round games. I have no clue who is favored, but both have surged late in the season. I think either one of them could stress Cortland in the 2nd round. Middlebury vs Oneonta should be one of the better 1st round games, and we'll see how each fares after sweating out getting a bid. The general consensus is that this is not a classic Oneonta outfit, but don't spend a fortune betting against Ian Byrne. I'm picking Midd in part because I think the game is more important for the Panthers, and because, as I've already said, I think Midd can make a run given the overall picture of this quad. Even at home, I'm not sold on F&M, especially in games against teams of similar or more talent who also are experienced playing in high level, high pressure matches. John Carroll is hosting and Hopkins looks to be the one possible challenge. But Hopkins has limped to the tournament and may not get by PS-Harrisburg. I don't see JCU losing at home to either one.
The sectional is likely to be Amherst (or Babson) going against either Cortland or the Gettysburg/Kean winner and the winner of F&M vs Midd/Oneonta versus John Carroll (or Hopkins). I don't see Amherst losing to any of those prospective foes in the Sweet 16, although I'd like to see Gettysburg get a shot. And I hope Cortland is more formidable than I think they are. If Babson knocks Amherst out then all of the above reasonable choices. At the bottom, I think it's going to be Midd versus John Carroll. That's a worst case scenario for the Blue Streaks IMO because I think JCU advances versus F&M or Oneonta. I think Midd can match JCU's maturity and size and despite the lack of goals Midd does have several dangerous players.
I'll be honest though. This quad, compared to the one above, looks like a handful of possible Sweet 16 type teams rather than Elite 8 or Final Four teams, but of course one of them will be going to the Final Four. I'll be very surprised if that team is anyone other than Amherst, Midd, or JCU....but, come on Cortland, surprise me and get out of Oneonta's shadow.
I really hate to say it, but I think F&M has the best shot of surprising higher seeds because of the style they play. It's a lot more disruptive if you haven't seen it before. They area also one of those teams that really thrives on emotion... They practically try to conjure up this emotion with their bench on the road. At home, it can be a palpable aspect of the game.
Also, dates and times are up. I might be way late on this, but just in case: https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/soccer-men/d3/2021
Of note, the Calvin-Rochester pod starts play on Friday. A does W&L's pod.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 09, 2021, 03:31:51 PM
I really hate to say it, but I think F&M has the best shot of surprising higher seeds because of the style they play. It's a lot more disruptive if you haven't seen it before. They area also one of those teams that really thrives on emotion... They practically try to conjure up this emotion with their bench on the road. At home, it can be a palpable aspect of the game.
I don't think any team that encounters Amherst on a regular basis is going to be thrown off by this. Been there, done that.
Yeah my impression of F&M over the years has been a poor man's Amherst. I think the key to NESCAC teams success in the tournament is being used to all different styles and not being overwhelmed by anything. Also without doing the research I would guess Midd is significantly bigger than F&M who might be a little surprised when they are no longer winning balls in the air.
Let's hope Midd has a chance to get there and find out. Midd has a 6-3 GK, and back 4 is all 6-1 or higher (McFarlane 6'3", O'Brien 6'1", Pape 6'4", Nelson 6'1" (Lund is the other option, and he is also 6'1"
Last but not least...the W&L/Messiah quad...
First, I've nearly torn my hair out trying to discern what CMSV means. After more than 24 hours I broke down and went on the Rowan website to see who that is. And much to my chagrin, after days of detailed coverage via @deiscanton, I learned that CMSV = Mt St Vincent.
With that out of the way, let's start up top. Does W&L get Denison or Covenant in the 2nd round. I had to look up where Covenant is too, and that was embarrassing because I had a girlfriend once from gorgeous Lookout Mtn, Tennessee. The picture of the Scots' pitch reveals a beautiful field with a beautiful view (like a lookout mountain vista). Everyone is gonna think Denison moves on to face W&L, but Covenant is capable of beating the Big Red, and one has to wonder even with Bianco how much juice Denison has left after probably the best 4-5 day stretch in Denison soccer history. My guess is that the excitement of making the tournament and travel to lovely and historic Lexington, VA will see Denison through to the 2nd round. Then, though, I think exhaustion is going to set in against a more talented W&L side that will be well-alerted to Denison's very recent exploits. The Big Red might hang for a while, but the road ends here and the scoreline might get ugly. Now, if Denison does prevail over W&L at W&L I hope that will end all debate about national coach of the year. This is a can't lose situation for Denison even if they falter against Covenant. They are going to be a program to reckon with moving forward.
I expect Rowan to cruise at home versus Mt St Vincent but given the chatter about cards the Professors don't want any players disqualified for a potential match with Christopher Newport. My impression of the Captains is that they are a little unpredictable but I assume they'll have too much for ECSU. In the next round, a Rowan-CNU clash seems like a toss-up. Rowan will have the home field edge but maybe no one has had the combination of extensive travel and a very difficult schedule as CNU.
Moving to the bottom part of the quad, one would think Emory and Lynchburg are clear faves to advance to face each other, with Emory then having a decided edge. But not so fast. I don't know how many players Centre still has from the 2019 Final 4 team but after a slow start the Colonels recovered and knocked out an Oglethorpe team I expected to win the SAA. Emory and Centre are programs also very familiar with one another. I think Emory will emerge but here's another potential 1st round upset. And I will not be shocked at all if Hanover beats Lynchburg. Another pick 'em type game IMO.
On to the Messiah pod. As I noted earlier today, I think Catholic is a legit 1st round upset pick over Kenyon, but the Lords are coming in wounded, hungry, and feeling very disrespected. If it happens it happens and then I can just enjoy the rest of the tournament as a neutral, but I have to think Kenyon will advance. I believe Kenyon's overall talent will come through and that on the huge Messiah pitch the Lords will generate enough chances to score at least a couple of goals. Presuming the Messiah-Kenyon match-up happens IMO that will be more of a pick 'em game than most would think. The objective at Kenyon now every year is a national championship. Of course the same is true for Messiah. I would expect the game to rival or exceed the 2013 affair in intensity and drama. Should also be a pretty open game with both sides getting plenty of chances, and even if one team goes up a goal or two, the other team still will have chances with opportunities to level. Kenyon MUST avoid getting repeatedly stretched and leaving the Falcons acres of space for counters. Messiah can slice and dice you without any help. Hopefully the Lords grab a lead or at least stay level so that they can maintain balance defensively on a big field.
Where would the sectional be if form holds? W&L? Messiah? I would assume not Atlanta given geography. If Messiah did lose then almost certainly W&L. Anyway, that could make a difference between W&L reaching the Final 4 or not.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2021, 04:11:59 PM
As I noted earlier today, I think Catholic is a legit 1st round upset pick over Kenyon
No way Catholic should be a legit upset pick over Kenyon. I really believe this is a CYA move because you don't want to have your heart broken again, so you're giving yourself an out. :-)
Quote from: Ejay on November 09, 2021, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2021, 04:11:59 PM
As I noted earlier today, I think Catholic is a legit 1st round upset pick over Kenyon
No way Catholic should be a legit upset pick over Kenyon. I really believe this is a CYA move because you don't want to have your heart broken again, so you're giving yourself an out. :-)
LOL. My heart broke a long time ago...many times over. Not sure how far back you read but that comment started after another poster said that Catholic was going to win. I was just endorsing part of his thesis, and that, of course, it could happen. But anyways, since when was CYA discouraged? And, btw, you left out the rest of sentence where I said I believed Kenyon would win.
I'll come clean. I knew well before the season started, deep within my aortic valve, that Kenyon was the best team in the country, and all those weeks when they weren't even ranked I knew that was absurd. I fully expect Kenyon to beat Messiah and go on to win the national title.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2021, 04:11:59 PM
Last but not least...the W&L/Messiah quad...
First, I've nearly torn my hair out trying to discern what CMSV means. After more than 24 hours I broke down and went on the Rowan website to see who that is. And much to my chagrin, after days of detailed coverage via @deiscanton, I learned that CMSV = Mt St Vincent.
With that out of the way, let's start up top. Does W&L get Denison or Covenant in the 2nd round. I had to look up where Covenant is too, and that was embarrassing because I had a girlfriend once from gorgeous Lookout Mtn, Tennessee. The picture of the Scots' pitch reveals a beautiful field with a beautiful view (like a lookout mountain vista). Everyone is gonna think Denison moves on to face W&L, but Covenant is capable of beating the Big Red, and one has to wonder even with Bianco how much juice Denison has left after probably the best 4-5 day stretch in Denison soccer history. My guess is that the excitement of making the tournament and travel to lovely and historic Lexington, VA will see Denison through to the 2nd round. Then, though, I think exhaustion is going to set in against a more talented W&L side that will be well-alerted to Denison's very recent exploits. The Big Red might hang for a while, but the road ends here and the scoreline might get ugly. Now, if Denison does prevail over W&L at W&L I hope that will end all debate about national coach of the year. This is a can't lose situation for Denison even if they falter against Covenant. They are going to be a program to reckon with moving forward.
I expect Rowan to cruise at home versus Mt St Vincent but given the chatter about cards the Professors don't want any players disqualified for a potential match with Christopher Newport. My impression of the Captains is that they are a little unpredictable but I assume they'll have too much for ECSU. In the next round, a Rowan-CNU clash seems like a toss-up. Rowan will have the home field edge but maybe no one has had the combination of extensive travel and a very difficult schedule as CNU.
Moving to the bottom part of the quad, one would think Emory and Lynchburg are clear faves to advance to face each other, with Emory then having a decided edge. But not so fast. I don't know how many players Centre still has from the 2019 Final 4 team but after a slow start the Colonels recovered and knocked out an Oglethorpe team I expected to win the SAA. Emory and Centre are programs also very familiar with one another. I think Emory will emerge but here's another potential 1st round upset. And I will not be shocked at all if Hanover beats Lynchburg. Another pick 'em type game IMO.
On to the Messiah pod. As I noted earlier today, I think Catholic is a legit 1st round upset pick over Kenyon, but the Lords are coming in wounded, hungry, and feeling very disrespected. If it happens it happens and then I can just enjoy the rest of the tournament as a neutral, but I have to think Kenyon will advance. I believe Kenyon's overall talent will come through and that on the huge Messiah pitch the Lords will generate enough chances to score at least a couple of goals. Presuming the Messiah-Kenyon match-up happens IMO that will be more of a pick 'em game than most would think. The objective at Kenyon now every year is a national championship. Of course the same is true for Messiah. I would expect the game to rival or exceed the 2013 affair in intensity and drama. Should also be a pretty open game with both sides getting plenty of chances, and even if one team goes up a goal or two, the other team still will have chances with opportunities to level. Kenyon MUST avoid getting repeatedly stretched and leaving the Falcons acres of space for counters. Messiah can slice and dice you without any help. Hopefully the Lords grab a lead or at least stay level so that they can maintain balance defensively on a big field.
Where would the sectional be if form holds? W&L? Messiah? I would assume not Atlanta given geography. If Messiah did lose then almost certainly W&L. Anyway, that could make a difference between W&L reaching the Final 4 or not.
Awesome breakdowns of each quadrant. I'm in agreement with basically everything you said.
I think you highlighted a lot of potential upsets that I think a lot of people probably are overlooking - myself included:
Pacific Lutheran over Trinity
Covenant over Denison
Centre over Emory
Hanover over Lynchburg
PSU-H over JHU
Oneonta over Middlebury
Cabrini over Babson (I really don't see this happening)
Trine over Otterbein (despite 13-0 drubbing they suffered to the Fighting Irish - still can't believe thats posted on their website)
Will be interesting to see who ends up advancing to the second round from these games even though I don't think any of them will impact the elite 8 besides Middlebury-Oneonta.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 09, 2021, 05:35:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 09, 2021, 04:11:59 PM
Last but not least...the W&L/Messiah quad...
First, I've nearly torn my hair out trying to discern what CMSV means. After more than 24 hours I broke down and went on the Rowan website to see who that is. And much to my chagrin, after days of detailed coverage via @deiscanton, I learned that CMSV = Mt St Vincent.
With that out of the way, let's start up top. Does W&L get Denison or Covenant in the 2nd round. I had to look up where Covenant is too, and that was embarrassing because I had a girlfriend once from gorgeous Lookout Mtn, Tennessee. The picture of the Scots' pitch reveals a beautiful field with a beautiful view (like a lookout mountain vista). Everyone is gonna think Denison moves on to face W&L, but Covenant is capable of beating the Big Red, and one has to wonder even with Bianco how much juice Denison has left after probably the best 4-5 day stretch in Denison soccer history. My guess is that the excitement of making the tournament and travel to lovely and historic Lexington, VA will see Denison through to the 2nd round. Then, though, I think exhaustion is going to set in against a more talented W&L side that will be well-alerted to Denison's very recent exploits. The Big Red might hang for a while, but the road ends here and the scoreline might get ugly. Now, if Denison does prevail over W&L at W&L I hope that will end all debate about national coach of the year. This is a can't lose situation for Denison even if they falter against Covenant. They are going to be a program to reckon with moving forward.
I expect Rowan to cruise at home versus Mt St Vincent but given the chatter about cards the Professors don't want any players disqualified for a potential match with Christopher Newport. My impression of the Captains is that they are a little unpredictable but I assume they'll have too much for ECSU. In the next round, a Rowan-CNU clash seems like a toss-up. Rowan will have the home field edge but maybe no one has had the combination of extensive travel and a very difficult schedule as CNU.
Moving to the bottom part of the quad, one would think Emory and Lynchburg are clear faves to advance to face each other, with Emory then having a decided edge. But not so fast. I don't know how many players Centre still has from the 2019 Final 4 team but after a slow start the Colonels recovered and knocked out an Oglethorpe team I expected to win the SAA. Emory and Centre are programs also very familiar with one another. I think Emory will emerge but here's another potential 1st round upset. And I will not be shocked at all if Hanover beats Lynchburg. Another pick 'em type game IMO.
On to the Messiah pod. As I noted earlier today, I think Catholic is a legit 1st round upset pick over Kenyon, but the Lords are coming in wounded, hungry, and feeling very disrespected. If it happens it happens and then I can just enjoy the rest of the tournament as a neutral, but I have to think Kenyon will advance. I believe Kenyon's overall talent will come through and that on the huge Messiah pitch the Lords will generate enough chances to score at least a couple of goals. Presuming the Messiah-Kenyon match-up happens IMO that will be more of a pick 'em game than most would think. The objective at Kenyon now every year is a national championship. Of course the same is true for Messiah. I would expect the game to rival or exceed the 2013 affair in intensity and drama. Should also be a pretty open game with both sides getting plenty of chances, and even if one team goes up a goal or two, the other team still will have chances with opportunities to level. Kenyon MUST avoid getting repeatedly stretched and leaving the Falcons acres of space for counters. Messiah can slice and dice you without any help. Hopefully the Lords grab a lead or at least stay level so that they can maintain balance defensively on a big field.
Where would the sectional be if form holds? W&L? Messiah? I would assume not Atlanta given geography. If Messiah did lose then almost certainly W&L. Anyway, that could make a difference between W&L reaching the Final 4 or not.
Awesome breakdowns of each quadrant. I'm in agreement with basically everything you said.
I think you highlighted a lot of potential upsets that I think a lot of people probably are overlooking - myself included:
Pacific Lutheran over Trinity
Covenant over Denison
Centre over Emory
Hanover over Lynchburg
PSU-H over JHU
Oneonta over Middlebury
Cabrini over Babson (I really don't see this happening)
Trine over Otterbein (despite 13-0 drubbing they suffered to the Fighting Irish - still can't believe thats posted on their website)
Will be interesting to see who ends up advancing to the second round from these games even though I don't think any of them will impact the elite 8 besides Middlebury-Oneonta.
Thanks...I don't think Oneonta over Midd would be an upset. Both big-time programs and Oneonta actually over most of the last decade has fared far better. Just happens to be a Midd poster on here and a handful of NESCAC posters, and no Oneonta posters as far as I can tell. And just to be clear for other readers, I didn't suggest that all those games were gonna be upsets...just that many of them may be tougher games than one might think on the surface.
Baruch has to be one of the biggest tourney underdogs in recent memory. Ranked #363 on Massey Ratings. SoS of .432. Lost to NYU this season 10-0 :o
I know I sound like Eeyore at this point, but Hopkins losing to PSU-H would barely be a blip of an upset. Just in terms of ranking, PSU-H is 20 and Hopkins 25. On form coming into the tournament, they are very different. PSU-H hasn't lost a game for months and ripped off pretty convincing wins in the conf. tournament. Hopkins has lost 4 of 6 and crapped out (on their home field) in the first round of the CC (as most of you know.)
Sorry to be nitpicky, and I know I'm not objective here, but I'd be pretty surprised if Hopkins pulls that one-off. Now, I do think they are trouble if they sort things out and get out of that game.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:44:13 PM
Swat of course might not get by Stevens, but if so would be two Shin brothers going against each other.
I happened to be on the Union College roster page and noticed a last name that sounded familiar amidst the Kenyon chatter. In the alternate reality where Kenyon faces Union in the tournament, it would be the Muther of all bruther battles ;)
Interesting. United Soccer Coaches have called for the NCAA to provide a day of rest between the semis and finals for both D3 men and women (like the other divisions have) and have even offered to foot the bill this season.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/united-soccer-coaches-proposes-changes-to-ncaa-diii-championship/
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2021, 08:16:38 AM
Interesting. United Soccer Coaches have called for the NCAA to provide a day of rest between the semis and finals for both D3 men and women (like the other divisions have) and have even offered to foot the bill this season.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/united-soccer-coaches-proposes-changes-to-ncaa-diii-championship/
Makes total sense and interesting to see very strong statements from Serpone and Martin. That said, if playing back to back days is unhealthy for the Final 4 then how is it not unhealthy for the pod and sectional weekends???
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2021, 08:16:38 AM
Interesting. United Soccer Coaches have called for the NCAA to provide a day of rest between the semis and finals for both D3 men and women (like the other divisions have) and have even offered to foot the bill this season.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/united-soccer-coaches-proposes-changes-to-ncaa-diii-championship/
Makes total sense and interesting to see very strong statements from Serpone and Martin. That said, if playing back to back days is unhealthy for the Final 4 then how is it not unhealthy for the pod and sectional weekends???
Exactly. Too little to late. Why are they asking for this NOW??? Seems maybe they wanted this letter out maybe to go along with the news that Ron mentioned about the overall % of money to NCAA D3 going down.
Well done PN with the predictions.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 09, 2021, 10:35:30 AM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 09, 2021, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 09, 2021, 10:01:02 AM
2021 ECAC Regional
https://ecacsports.com/news/2021/11/8/ecac-announces-2021-diii-mens-soccer-championship-field.aspx
Thanks for posting, and pursuant to what Ron B. said above about the state of the NCAA and their future revenue risk, organizations like the ECAC may become more relavent if D3 travel funds become even more scarce. In terms of major sporting organizations, the NCAA competes with the NFL for the honor of being my least favorite.
The big questions going forward: is there anybody less lazy than me that would set up a bracketology for the forum? I don't have the time to administer a contest, but I'd donate a $50 gift card of some sort to the winner. Any takers?
Having run a few of these in the past for my office at March Madness... you ought to donate the gift card to the poor fool who offers to run it! There is probably some software out there that makes it easier, but then you need everyone to use the software. I volunteered 3x, never again...
Haha. That's a better suggestion, and I'll take your advice and offer it to the poor fool *brilliant public servant* who offers to run it!
Hello everyone - I'm a former DIII player and a long time lurker but first time poster. Building off of Centennial1 and jknezek's idea I thought I'd put together a bracket a pool for this season's tournament. In true DIII fashion, I am proposing that we do this only for fun/bragging rights rather than any monetary prize.
Below is the link to the website to sign up for the bracket pool. It does ask for a name and email when you register, but that information will not be visible to other participants. Only your username and bracket entry name will be visible. Feel free to use a John Doe type alias too if you have any concerns.
https://www.runyourpool.com/join/pool_info.cfm?id=179402&p=ytcoyu
PM or email me with any questions, feedback, or issues. The window to submit a bracket closes right before the start of the first game on Friday, best of luck!
BracketMaster: you're the man.
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
UChicago's best attacking player is Yetishefsky. If he scores, the Maroons win, it's that simple. Their center back Griffin Wada is a monster on defense, 6-foot-5 and wins every header, one of the best CBs in the country.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Kenyon #15 is the best right back/midfielder I have seen in his position in the country.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
UChicago's best attacking player is Yetishefsky. If he scores, the Maroons win, it's that simple. Their center back Griffin Wada is a monster on defense, 6-foot-5 and wins every header, one of the best CBs in the country.
Thanks...exactly what I was looking for. And to not appear to be ducking my own question, Kenyon imo doesn't have any POY candidates or clear MVP-type players. Upton, a midfielder, and Hosmer-Quint, a CB both made one of the AA teams in 2019 but they are much more part of a "by committee" group in terms of who has biggest impact and difference makers. The Lords have two primary forward lines which I wish Brown had experimented with changing up the two duos and found more time for Hrafnkelsson up top or in midlfield. A strength of the team is in midfield with Upton, Nardiello-Smith, and frosh dynamic playmaker Martinez, and also at CB with Hosmer-Quint and soph Burns (in first year of competition), and Muther at right back and sometimes midfield who has been referenced on this site quite a bit. Burns has been one of Kenyon's best and most consistent players imo and has been lethal with free kicks.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 10, 2021, 01:29:35 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Kenyon #15 is the best right back/midfielder I have seen in his position in the country.
Didn't see this until after what just posted. Yes, very, very good. That said, needs to bounce back after one of his weaker games because of the Miracle of Denison which you detailed so well (yes, Miracle is #21 for Denison).
In addition to the players already mentioned, I will add, Hopkins #7, NYU #9 and Connecticut's #7.
Hopkins #7 is Nate Charendoff. He is a graduate forward. Although he doesn't typically start and plays limited minutes, he is second on the team in goals and points. He should probably play more.
The Hopkins GK, Xander Lafevre, was first team all-conference as was #19 Liam Creedon, MF, and #17, Ian Whammond, MF. Whammond was the conference rookie of the year.
Quote from: camosfan on November 10, 2021, 01:53:34 PM
In addition to the players already mentioned, I will add, Hopkins #7, NYU #9 and Connecticut's #7.
Conn Coll #7? Going by the roster numbers looks like he hasn't played very much. Thinking of someone else?
My impression is that Conn has a handful of difference makers. I'm too far out of youth soccer to know what MLS Next, ECNL (boys), etc mean, but Conn's roster looks super-impressive. Impressed that Conn can draw kids from Phillips Exeter. Yeonas I noticed in the Tufts game all over the field.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 10, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
Hopkins #7 is Nate Charendoff. He is a graduate forward. Although he doesn't typically start and plays limited minutes, he is second on the team in goals and points. He should probably play more.
The Hopkins GK, Xander Lafevre, was first team all-conference as was #19 Liam Creedon, MF, and #17, Ian Whammond, MF. Whammond was the conference rookie of the year.
Those JHU team sport coats look sharp!
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 10, 2021, 10:35:58 AM
BracketMaster: you're the man.
Yep, zipped through the brackets because I'm out of town starting tomorrow, but this should be fun! Thanks BM!!
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 10, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
Hopkins #7 is Nate Charendoff. He is a graduate forward. Although he doesn't typically start and plays limited minutes, he is second on the team in goals and points. He should probably play more.
The Hopkins GK, Xander Lafevre, was first team all-conference as was #19 Liam Creedon, MF, and #17, Ian Whammond, MF. Whammond was the conference rookie of the year.
Hey Walk-On, I know this is a longshot, but do you know if Lafevre's going to be available this weekend? He got clattered into and had to come out his last game. The back-up is a big dude (Ford) that was a transfer from Fordham (D1), but he looked a little shaky with the ball at his feet. Which... I'll let folks fill in the blanks on how problematic that is for the Jays.
Here's the web page for the games in Grantham this weekend. https://gomessiah.com/sports/2021/11/8/2021-ncaa-opening-weekend-mens-soccer.aspx
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Michael Meese at Trinity is terrific. A threat to score anytime he's near the ball. Several multiple goal games and he tied TU's consecutive game scoring streak this season.
Quote from: D3Navy on November 10, 2021, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Michael Meese at Trinity is terrific. A threat to score anytime he's near the ball. Several multiple goal games and he tied TU's consecutive game scoring streak this season.
And a freshman!!!
How the heck did a kid from Williamsburg, VA end up at Trinity (TX)?
Another enormous roster.
Quote from: D3Navy on November 10, 2021, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Michael Meese at Trinity is terrific. A threat to score anytime he's near the ball. Several multiple goal games and he tied TU's consecutive game scoring streak this season.
Kid has a great background - transfer from William & Mary where he was a starter.
https://tribeathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/michael-meese/11491
Quote from: Ejay on November 10, 2021, 06:46:55 PM
Quote from: D3Navy on November 10, 2021, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Michael Meese at Trinity is terrific. A threat to score anytime he's near the ball. Several multiple goal games and he tied TU's consecutive game scoring streak this season.
Kid has a great background - transfer from William & Mary where he was a starter.
https://tribeathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/michael-meese/11491
Wow. My new favorite player, and I'll be pulling hard for Trinity.
Do you know why the change? Parents' alma mater, playing, apparently doing well as won some non-soccer award at W&M, etc. I know Trinity is a great school, but that is quite a change. Would have thought W&L, Swat, Hopkins, Haverford, Emory, NESCAC-land, etc would have been all over this kid if he was known to be downsizing to D3.
@Hopkins92, I don't know LaFevre's status. With all the doctors at Hopkins, I imagine they can rustle up a medical team to treat his head injury (concussion?). If he doesn't play, they are in trouble, although he hasn't been as good this year as he has been in previous years.
This kind of stuff like the Trinity player is what I love. The stories are so worth telling and sharing. And with enough detail all of them are interesting...regardless of whether it's a player or coach from Williams or Keuka or Hope or Wisconsin Lutheran or Chapman or Montclair. The stories are right there waiting to be told. One of the best things on this site were RH's coach interviews for the Final 4. I've always thought a weekly feature on a coach or player, with a transcript interview and/or accompanied by video would be fantastic. That's hard to do formally without money and resources, but that's where amateurs here doing their thing and offering their own little habits and features on the site can be valuable or make coming her more enjoyable. Features on alums by schools would be fantastic and great for recruiting. I tried to get Kenyon to do more of this to no avail. Parents could do more of this but often that will be seen as just nakedly self-interested. This is why I think the coaches and schools that frequently put videos on their sites and add a quote from the coach with a couple of sentences in recaps are really smart and it's such a small, very easy, but important touch.
Yetishefsky....This has to be my favorite name in D3...besides being a prolific goal scorer every time I read his name I chuckle cause I immediately think hammer and sickle.
Chase Gwynn at Gordon College, my alma mater. Played at Wheaton (Ill.) for 3 years then transferred to Gordon after his junior year to play there. Of course, no senior year because of COVID. Comes back for a fifth year and thus far has:
19 Goals
5 Assists
...and is playing in the tournament. I'm very happy for him and for how it worked out, when for a while it looked like it hadn't worked out at all.
Of course, I'm also happy for Gordon College...
Now that you've outed yourself as a Gordon alum I can pose a question to you that I've been thinking of lately. It seems like the problem had a bit of a dip that last few years. In 2017 they beat Tufts early in the year and had a great year. They had the one blonde center mid they stole from Messiah who was a multi time all american and people thought they might start getting more players like him on a regular basis and turn into a Messiah-lite. It seems like they never built on that momentum. Do you have any insight? I'm sure i'm missing like 90% of the story.
Yeah, Caleb Cole was a maestro.
They had a coaching change the year after beating Tufts (2017?) when an alum and former MLS player, Matt Horth, became the new coach. He's been trying to implement a more technical and attacking style of play and has had some success. I attribute their down year in 2019 to a lack of seniors and the leadership they bring. Having said that Horth has won the conference 2 out of the 4 seasons he's been there.
But, yes, they are definitely trying to incorporate a lot of Messiah's methods and approaches. Of course, as we all know, to play like Messiah requires technical skill, great conditioning, tactically astute players, etc. and if you are weak in one of those areas, you can get beat up pretty badly. Also, I think it's taken Horth a few years to build a recruiting network, particularly as he didn't arrive from another school in the region.
This year they have scored a bunch of goals and have been fun to watch. I don't make any great promises about the tournament as they have a tough opening game in Montclair St.
Gordon recruits from the same pool of high-school players as does Messiah, Eastern, and Wheaton (IL). If Matt Horth is doing it right, he'll not only bump into the coaches of those other schools when going after the top players from that pool, he'll start winning some of those recruiting battles. Gordon has a lot to offer aside from soccer, especially if you're a New England kid.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 12:30:41 PM
Gordon recruits from the same pool of high-school players as does Messiah, Eastern, and Wheaton (IL). If Matt Horth is doing it right, he'll not only bump into the coaches of those other schools when going after the top players from that pool, he'll start winning some of those recruiting battles. Gordon has a lot to offer aside from soccer, especially if you're a New England kid.
Definitely have a lot to offer NE kids who want to stay there but they actually haven't landed many players from NE on a relative basis. Gordon does leverage its location to attract kids from other regions of the country who might like to study in NE. That really seems to be working. Gordon's student body is fairly geographically diverse when compared to Messiah, Eastern, and Calvin.
Ok. Now full disclosure. I have a son who played at Gordon and a son who's playing at Messiah.
MSF, I looked at Gordon's roster and even living in MA I had no idea that Gordon had that type of geographical pull.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 11, 2021, 01:18:39 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 12:30:41 PM
Gordon recruits from the same pool of high-school players as does Messiah, Eastern, and Wheaton (IL). If Matt Horth is doing it right, he'll not only bump into the coaches of those other schools when going after the top players from that pool, he'll start winning some of those recruiting battles. Gordon has a lot to offer aside from soccer, especially if you're a New England kid.
Definitely have a lot to offer NE kids who want to stay there but they actually haven't landed many players from NE on a relative basis. Gordon does leverage its location to attract kids from other regions of the country who might like to study in NE. That really seems to be working. Gordon's student body is fairly geographically diverse when compared to Messiah, Eastern, and Calvin.
Calvin's a different animal altogether. Although the feeder system of Christian Reformed high schools in Michigan that traditionally fed Calvin most of its talent in its various sports has waned, Ryan Souders still does recruit most of Calvin's players from the mitten, augmented with a fair amount from Chicagoland suburbs (although the Calvin roster also indicates that he has contacts in greater Charlotte and in Auckland, NZ). Interestingly, for a Wheaton alumnus he doesn't place an emphasis upon recruiting evangelical academies as do Messiah, Gordon, and Eastern as well as his alma mater; most of Souders' players are from public schools or from the traditional Christian Reformed feeder schools in western Michigan.
He obviously has a read on not only where to draw from in his recruiting, but on what is a good fit for his school.
When my sons were looking at college's to attend, I was surprised at how large a percentage of the rosters of Calvin, Eastern, and Messiah were from each college's state. For Calvin, it was way over 50%. Messiah's roster this year is 1/3 PA. Eastern I believe is similar.
Gordon isn't like that at all, for better or worse. It bears very little relationship to the HS-age soccer cultures of MA & CT - kind of ships passing in the night.
Calvin is MI. Eastern and Messiah are primarily the Mid-Atlantic.
Given their success, I had expected Messiah's roster to be full of kids from CA, TX, FL, NC, MI, WA, MA, IN, CT, etc. - like Tufts or Amherst. Not to mention some internationals.
Yeah, I've heard a few Wheaton fans gripe that the reason for their school's relative decline on the soccer pitch has been that most of the good evangelical-academy players are going to Messiah nowadays. I think that that excuse is weak soup, because: a) the pool is big enough to support more than one good D3 program, as Wheaton itself demonstrated when it was a national contender while Messiah was running off all of those national titles; and b) Wheaton recruits nationally, whereas Messiah confines its recruiting footprint to Pennsylvania and the rest of the northeast, aside from some evangelical schools in northeast Ohio and in Virginia and North Carolina.
(I don't know how common that gripe is among Wheaton fans; it may be a minority opinion. I do know that others have said as an explanation for Wheaton's slide that former coach Jake DeClute simply didn't recruit well, period.)
Wheaton has a true Rand-McNally roster in men's soccer, as it does in every sport.
Another school that is working the evangelical-academy circuit to great success in recruiting is Covenant, which qualified for this year's D3 tourney. Heck, the Scots even have a sprinkling of homeschooled kids on their roster; one of them, Mercer Stout, is their leading scorer (9-9-27). The Scots, however, are basically oriented to the southeast in terms of their recruiting base.
Covenant might be one of the most scenic colleges in the country. The buildings are kind of standard, but the view from the top of Lookout Mtn is beautiful. If a Christian school was in my wheelhouse, and as a kid raised Northeast Jewish it clearly wasn't, I'd be looking hard at Covenant as an option just for the environment! The view from the athletic fields is stunning.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 02:47:27 PM
Yeah, I've heard a few Wheaton fans gripe that the reason for their school's relative decline on the soccer pitch has been that most of the good evangelical-academy players are going to Messiah nowadays. I think that that excuse is weak soup, because: a) the pool is big enough to support more than one good D3 program, as Wheaton itself demonstrated when it was a national contender while Messiah was running off all of those national titles; and b) Wheaton recruits nationally, whereas Messiah confines its recruiting footprint to Pennsylvania and the rest of the northeast, aside from some evangelical schools in northeast Ohio and in Virginia and North Carolina.
(I don't know how common that gripe is among Wheaton fans; it may be a minority opinion. I do know that others have said as an explanation for Wheaton's slide that former coach Jake DeClute simply didn't recruit well, period.)
There-in lies your main factor there. DeClute just wasn't a good fit. Say what you will about Mike Giuliano's in-game strategy, but he was a helluva recruiter while running the ship at Wheaton. The year they snapped their NCAA qualifying streak, he was pretty crushed. But they bounced back and eventually made the national title game with a boatload of All-Americans. Borge controlling the midfield, Hollingsworth speeding past everyone on the attack, the three Golz brothers living up to their names, Noah Anthony with one of the best free kick legs in the nation. The Thunder had some dudes on those squads.
Quick reminder to anyone who is interested in participating in the bracket pool - I have set the deadline for 12pm EST tomorrow so make sure to submit your picks by then. Participation has been impressive so far, already 48 entries!
All of the picks will be visible after the deadline and I'll share some notable takeaways from the submitted brackets on here before the tournament kicks off.
The link to the bracket pool is below. As I said before, your name and email will not be visible, just your username and entry name.
https://www.runyourpool.com/join/pool_info.cfm?id=179402&p=ytcoyu
Quote from: blue_jays on November 11, 2021, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 02:47:27 PM
Yeah, I've heard a few Wheaton fans gripe that the reason for their school's relative decline on the soccer pitch has been that most of the good evangelical-academy players are going to Messiah nowadays. I think that that excuse is weak soup, because: a) the pool is big enough to support more than one good D3 program, as Wheaton itself demonstrated when it was a national contender while Messiah was running off all of those national titles; and b) Wheaton recruits nationally, whereas Messiah confines its recruiting footprint to Pennsylvania and the rest of the northeast, aside from some evangelical schools in northeast Ohio and in Virginia and North Carolina.
(I don't know how common that gripe is among Wheaton fans; it may be a minority opinion. I do know that others have said as an explanation for Wheaton's slide that former coach Jake DeClute simply didn't recruit well, period.)
There-in lies your main factor there. DeClute just wasn't a good fit. Say what you will about Mike Giuliano's in-game strategy, but he was a helluva recruiter while running the ship at Wheaton. The year they snapped their NCAA qualifying streak, he was pretty crushed. But they bounced back and eventually made the national title game with a boatload of All-Americans. Borge controlling the midfield, Hollingsworth speeding past everyone on the attack, the three Golz brothers living up to their names, Noah Anthony with one of the best free kick legs in the nation. The Thunder had some dudes on those squads.
Well, he's apparently learned a thing or two from his arch-nemesis John Born of NPU. Giuliano currently has six Swedes on his roster at Georgia Gwinnett, where he is the women's soccer coach and has had some pretty good success on the NAIA level thus far since leaving Wheaton.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 04:06:46 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 11, 2021, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 11, 2021, 02:47:27 PM
Yeah, I've heard a few Wheaton fans gripe that the reason for their school's relative decline on the soccer pitch has been that most of the good evangelical-academy players are going to Messiah nowadays. I think that that excuse is weak soup, because: a) the pool is big enough to support more than one good D3 program, as Wheaton itself demonstrated when it was a national contender while Messiah was running off all of those national titles; and b) Wheaton recruits nationally, whereas Messiah confines its recruiting footprint to Pennsylvania and the rest of the northeast, aside from some evangelical schools in northeast Ohio and in Virginia and North Carolina.
(I don't know how common that gripe is among Wheaton fans; it may be a minority opinion. I do know that others have said as an explanation for Wheaton's slide that former coach Jake DeClute simply didn't recruit well, period.)
There-in lies your main factor there. DeClute just wasn't a good fit. Say what you will about Mike Giuliano's in-game strategy, but he was a helluva recruiter while running the ship at Wheaton. The year they snapped their NCAA qualifying streak, he was pretty crushed. But they bounced back and eventually made the national title game with a boatload of All-Americans. Borge controlling the midfield, Hollingsworth speeding past everyone on the attack, the three Golz brothers living up to their names, Noah Anthony with one of the best free kick legs in the nation. The Thunder had some dudes on those squads.
Well, he's apparently learned a thing or two from his arch-nemesis John Born of NPU. Giuliano currently has six Swedes on his roster at Georgia Gwinnett, where he is the women's soccer coach and has had some pretty good success on the NAIA level thus far since leaving Wheaton.
Interesting, didn't know he was at Gwinnett now, glad he's doing well. His 4 career NAIA titles speak for themselves, good coach and a good guy.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 06:57:49 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 10, 2021, 06:46:55 PM
Quote from: D3Navy on November 10, 2021, 06:11:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 10, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
Anybody have insight into key players to watch?
Ones who seem to be well known and have been mentioned this season include Giammattei with Amherst, Aroh with Tufts, Travis van Brewer at Tufts, Gomez with OWU, Olsen with North Park, Lukovic for Montclair, and Groothoff for Messiah. Of those the only one apparently out due to injury is Groothoff. Twigg at Calvin is another, and Turittin for John Carroll who I guessed was struggling with an injury earlier in the season but now based solely on watching internet video appears at full strength. Anyway, I don't know who the MVP-type players are for Wash U, Chicago, NYU, Trinity, F&M, Emory, St Olaf, CNU, W&L, Oneonta, Hopkins, etc, etc.
Michael Meese at Trinity is terrific. A threat to score anytime he's near the ball. Several multiple goal games and he tied TU's consecutive game scoring streak this season.
Kid has a great background - transfer from William & Mary where he was a starter.
https://tribeathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/michael-meese/11491
Wow. My new favorite player, and I'll be pulling hard for Trinity.
Do you know why the change? Parents' alma mater, playing, apparently doing well as won some non-soccer award at W&M, etc. I know Trinity is a great school, but that is quite a change. Would have thought W&L, Swat, Hopkins, Haverford, Emory, NESCAC-land, etc would have been all over this kid if he was known to be downsizing to D3.
I'll see if I can learn more. I'm an alum, but not involved in the program. He's a big fish in the Trinity pond and there's a great sports program all around. Great camaraderie clearly visible in all of the Fall sports.
FYI, upon playing Webster, St Joseph's, and Rosemont....Chicago, NYU, and Amherst will have the top 3 SoS's at .692, .675, and .664, respectively.
The picks are in! Thanks to all 68 people who submitted brackets, that gives us a good sample size to get a pulse on who the community is favoring. I have provided some data points that struck me as interesting below, and let me know if there is anything else worth looking into.
Some interesting takeaways:
- Predicted champions: Tufts was the most common choice with 18 picks, and Messiah was close behind with 16. Consensus dropped off significantly after that, with Ohio Wesleyan being the next most picked team with 6.
- UChicago was picked by 14 people to make the final, but only ONE person picked them to win it.
- Only 3 brackets have Washington & Lee winning it all, interesting given the amount of time they spent at #1 in the national rankings.
- Predicted Champions by Quadrant: Top Left – 25, Bottom Left – 23, Top Right – 12, Bottom Right – 9
- Predicted Champions by Conference: NESCAC – 29, MACC – 16, NCAC 10, UAA – 4
- Teams picked to make the final four more than 10 times: Tufts, Amherst, Messiah, UChicago, Washington & Lee, Ohio Wesleyan, WashU, Conn. College, and Middlebury
Community picks in notable first-round matchups:
- Swarthmore 35 – 33 Stevens
- Washington College 48 – 20 St. Lawrence
- NYU 51 – 17 St. Joseph's (ME)
- Denison 57 – 11 Covenant
- Emory 53 – 15 Centre
- North Central 49 – 19 Loras
- Rochester (NY) 16 – 52 Calvin
- Middlebury 53 – 15 SUNY Oneonta
- Johns Hopkins 41 – 27 Penn St. Harrisburg
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 11:17:35 AM
FYI, upon playing Webster, St Joseph's, and Rosemont....Chicago, NYU, and Amherst will have the top 3 SoS's at .692, .675, and .664, respectively.
I assume you are exaggerating to make the point that playing teams that we subjectively do not consider to be strong opponents can still help your SOS (or not hurt it as much as it maybe should) because of how it is calculated. This is true, but the effect isn't nearly as extreme as you imply with those numbers. And in actuality, Amherst's SOS will drop fractionally due playing Rosemont.
Amherst: 16 games played with .638 SOS
Rosemont: .719 Win Pct., .441 OWP
Contribution to Amherst's SOS: .719 OWP, .441 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.719) + 1/3 (.441) = .626
(note that this is less than Amherst's current SOS, so it will pull the SOS down)Amherst's updated SOS: [ 16 (.638) + 1 (.626) ] / 17 = .637 SOS
Chicago: 18 games played with .649 SOS
Webster: .905 Win Pct., .469 OWP
Contribution to Chicago's SOS: .905 OWP, .469 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.905) + 1/3 (.469) = .760
Chicago's updated SOS: [ 18 (.649) + 1 (.760) ] / 19 = .655 SOS
NYU: 16 games played with .633 SOS
St. Joe's .895 Win Pct., .541 OWP
Contribution to NYU's SOS: .895 OWP, .541 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.895) + 1/3 (.541) = .777
NYU's updated SOS: [ 16 (.633) + 1 (.777) ] / 17 = .641 SOS
Quote from: BracketMaster on November 12, 2021, 12:41:42 PM
The picks are in! Thanks to all 68 people who submitted brackets, that gives us a good sample size to get a pulse on who the community is favoring. I have provided some data points that struck me as interesting below, and let me know if there is anything else worth looking into.
Some interesting takeaways:
- Predicted champions: Tufts was the most common choice with 18 picks, and Messiah was close behind with 16. Consensus dropped off significantly after that, with Ohio Wesleyan being the next most picked team with 6.
- UChicago was picked by 14 people to make the final, but only ONE person picked them to win it.
- Only 3 brackets have Washington & Lee winning it all, interesting given the amount of time they spent at #1 in the national rankings.
- Predicted Champions by Quadrant: Top Left – 25, Bottom Left – 23, Top Right – 12, Bottom Right – 9
- Predicted Champions by Conference: NESCAC – 29, MACC – 16, NCAC 10, UAA – 4
- Teams picked to make the final four more than 10 times: Tufts, Amherst, Messiah, UChicago, Washington & Lee, Ohio Wesleyan, WashU, Conn. College, and Middlebury
Community picks in notable first-round matchups:
- Swarthmore 35 – 33 Stevens
- Washington College 48 – 20 St. Lawrence
- NYU 51 – 17 St. Joseph's (ME)
- Denison 57 – 11 Covenant
- Emory 53 – 15 Centre
- North Central 49 – 19 Loras
- Rochester (NY) 16 – 52 Calvin
- Middlebury 53 – 15 SUNY Oneonta
- Johns Hopkins 41 – 27 Penn St. Harrisburg
Great stuff, and glad you were able to get so much participation. Nothing too too surprising to me but very interesting nonetheless.
If you could provide a little bit more information on tendencies found in the top right quadrant I would appreciate it, that seems to be the most up in the air, maybe a stat for how many different teams people have in the final four from that bracket.
Also, I'm interested in how many people picked Kenyon over Messiah and if so how far they have Kenyon going.
Thank again!
Which teams are using the religious exemption today?
I see Calvin and who is at W&L using one?
Quote from: BracketMaster on November 11, 2021, 03:22:46 PM
Quick reminder to anyone who is interested in participating in the bracket pool - I have set the deadline for 12pm EST tomorrow so make sure to submit your picks by then. Participation has been impressive so far, already 48 entries!
All of the picks will be visible after the deadline and I'll share some notable takeaways from the submitted brackets on here before the tournament kicks off.
The link to the bracket pool is below. As I said before, your name and email will not be visible, just your username and entry name.
https://www.runyourpool.com/join/pool_info.cfm?id=179402&p=ytcoyu
Someone is running with my handle..I did not participate but my handle did.
Ok yes now I see their later game. Thanks
Ruh roh---Baruch a 1-0 lead over W&L off a corner 3 min in...W&L #22 who was zoning on the 6 completely missed the ball and 5 minutes later W&L level. That was really bad defending from Baruch and not a good sign for the last 80.
Wow Baruch up 1-0 on W&L less than 5 minutes in..we'll see how long that lasts
I call it right now.
Greatest Upset in NCAA D3 history if it happens.
I know that many NYC former players (Who left for other parts of the country) are rooting for Baruch.
Didn't last long. W&L scored less than 8 in to tie it.
And 12 minutes in W&L is up 2-1
And 3-1 less than 15 minutes in. I suspect this isn't going to be an upset. Baruch is getting over run at the moment.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 12, 2021, 02:08:07 PM
I call it right now.
Greatest Upset in NCAA D3 history if it happens.
I know that many NYC former players (Who left for other parts of the country) are rooting for Baruch.
Also, this is the reason many of these NYC players go to different schools around the country.
Problem is that when these really good teams bring on their 2nd string in NCAA games, these boys are coming in hotter than starters and have a point to prove.
This one could get ugly.
Zimmerman with a hat trick, score now 4-1.
This game is going to double digits
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2021, 02:37:47 PM
This game is going to double digits
Don't think so. Generals are already into their bench. Figure it'll get deeper as the game goes on trying to stay fresh and take out the possibility of injury unless Baruch does something. But with only the one big striker up front, they don't seem at all threatening.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2021, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 11:17:35 AM
FYI, upon playing Webster, St Joseph's, and Rosemont....Chicago, NYU, and Amherst will have the top 3 SoS's at .692, .675, and .664, respectively.
I assume you are exaggerating to make the point that playing teams that we subjectively do not consider to be strong opponents can still help your SOS (or not hurt it as much as it maybe should) because of how it is calculated. This is true, but the effect isn't nearly as extreme as you imply with those numbers. And in actuality, Amherst's SOS will drop fractionally due playing Rosemont.
Amherst: 16 games played with .638 SOS
Rosemont: .719 Win Pct., .441 OWP
Contribution to Amherst's SOS: .719 OWP, .441 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.719) + 1/3 (.441) = .626
(note that this is less than Amherst's current SOS, so it will pull the SOS down)
Amherst's updated SOS: [ 16 (.638) + 1 (.626) ] / 17 = .637 SOS
Chicago: 18 games played with .649 SOS
Webster: .905 Win Pct., .469 OWP
Contribution to Chicago's SOS: .905 OWP, .469 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.905) + 1/3 (.469) = .760
Chicago's updated SOS: [ 18 (.649) + 1 (.760) ] / 19 = .655 SOS
NYU: 16 games played with .633 SOS
St. Joe's .895 Win Pct., .541 OWP
Contribution to NYU's SOS: .895 OWP, .541 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.895) + 1/3 (.541) = .777
NYU's updated SOS: [ 16 (.633) + 1 (.777) ] / 17 = .641 SOS
Actually I quoted the numbers exactly from the NCAA site that @deiscanton provided 2-3 weeks ago. No exaggeration or point I was trying to make.
Generals up 5-1 at the half. Could have been more, but you have to be a Generals or Bearcats fan to keep watching this one.
Quote from: jknezek on November 12, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
Generals up 5-1 at the half. Could have been more, but you have to be a Generals or Bearcats fan to keep watching this one.
Yup, especially with this person operating the camera - making me sick quickly moving back and forth.
Great, first game in and my bracket is already busted! :(
I put my first half notes in the 2021 Games Notes thread. Done and dusted, not even close really. More goals will be had for W&L.
Just as a matter of consistency, is there a preference where my game notes go? In the thread I mentioned, or here? Will do whatever.
Quote from: jknezek on November 12, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
Generals up 5-1 at the half. Could have been more, but you have to be a Generals or Bearcats fan to keep watching this one.
Even all of my W&L soccer buddy alums have turned it off at this point . . .
Any UAA and Wash U faithful have any color to provide about Wash U? Best season in years, wins UAA, skyrockets up the polls, but not much buzz about the Bears at all and not clear if most view them as true contenders.
I looked at some of their box scores. Just a few where clearly dominated and within UAA only game with real advantage was CWRU. Pretty even stats with Hope, North Park, and Brandeis. In 3-0 win over CMU the Tartans led shots 13-9 and corners 7-2. Otherwise, significant stats advantage for UR, NYU, and especially Emory -- 19-8 shots and 6-1 corners -- and Chicago -- 14-4 shots and 11-0 corners. Emory was a 0-0 game. I understand Chicago was chasing the game after Wash U scored in 5th minute, but still, 14-4 and 11-0 seems significant. Does Wash U get a goal and then sit in the rest of the game? Will this approach serve them in the NCAA tournament?
And for a team so highly valued, having to probably play North Park a second time at North Park seems pretty brutal. I think I would lean North Park in that one.
Well I toughed it out. Definitely not the most interesting second half as W&L goes through 6-1. Denison Covenant coming up in an hour. I assume it will be a better game but unfortunately I won't be around to watch it.
Obviously, W&L aren't bothered by Baruch, but they do have the tools to make a deep run. The one thing that I didn't see a ton of was speed to keep up with the Messiahs and NESCACers. The one player with speed was the #10, but his poise and vision aren't as good as the #6 and other midfielders. They do a great job turning away from defensive pressure without losing sight of the field, and have good skills up and down the pitch. The #6 looks to be their most dangerous player up top. He took a knock to the head about 15 minutes into the second half. That's where I would have rested him for the balance of the match, but the Coach had him right back in as the game got more and more physical. Looking forward to their round 2.
Quote from: LetteroftheLaw on November 12, 2021, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: BracketMaster on November 12, 2021, 12:41:42 PM
The picks are in! Thanks to all 68 people who submitted brackets, that gives us a good sample size to get a pulse on who the community is favoring. I have provided some data points that struck me as interesting below, and let me know if there is anything else worth looking into.
Some interesting takeaways:
- Predicted champions: Tufts was the most common choice with 18 picks, and Messiah was close behind with 16. Consensus dropped off significantly after that, with Ohio Wesleyan being the next most picked team with 6.
- UChicago was picked by 14 people to make the final, but only ONE person picked them to win it.
- Only 3 brackets have Washington & Lee winning it all, interesting given the amount of time they spent at #1 in the national rankings.
- Predicted Champions by Quadrant: Top Left – 25, Bottom Left – 23, Top Right – 12, Bottom Right – 9
- Predicted Champions by Conference: NESCAC – 29, MACC – 16, NCAC 10, UAA – 4
- Teams picked to make the final four more than 10 times: Tufts, Amherst, Messiah, UChicago, Washington & Lee, Ohio Wesleyan, WashU, Conn. College, and Middlebury
Community picks in notable first-round matchups:
- Swarthmore 35 – 33 Stevens
- Washington College 48 – 20 St. Lawrence
- NYU 51 – 17 St. Joseph's (ME)
- Denison 57 – 11 Covenant
- Emory 53 – 15 Centre
- North Central 49 – 19 Loras
- Rochester (NY) 16 – 52 Calvin
- Middlebury 53 – 15 SUNY Oneonta
- Johns Hopkins 41 – 27 Penn St. Harrisburg
Great stuff, and glad you were able to get so much participation. Nothing too too surprising to me but very interesting nonetheless.
If you could provide a little bit more information on tendencies found in the top right quadrant I would appreciate it, that seems to be the most up in the air, maybe a stat for how many different teams people have in the final four from that bracket.
Also, I'm interested in how many people picked Kenyon over Messiah and if so how far they have Kenyon going.
Thank again!
Here is how far people have Kenyon going: Second Round - 62, Sweet Sixteen - 18, Elite Eight - 13, Final Four - 8, Final - 5, Champion - 4
The drop off from Second Round to Sweet Sixteen says it all. 60 people have a Messiah vs. Kenyon match up, and Messiah is predicted by 42 to proceed.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 12, 2021, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 11:17:35 AM
FYI, upon playing Webster, St Joseph's, and Rosemont....Chicago, NYU, and Amherst will have the top 3 SoS's at .692, .675, and .664, respectively.
I assume you are exaggerating to make the point that playing teams that we subjectively do not consider to be strong opponents can still help your SOS (or not hurt it as much as it maybe should) because of how it is calculated. This is true, but the effect isn't nearly as extreme as you imply with those numbers. And in actuality, Amherst's SOS will drop fractionally due playing Rosemont.
Amherst: 16 games played with .638 SOS
Rosemont: .719 Win Pct., .441 OWP
Contribution to Amherst's SOS: .719 OWP, .441 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.719) + 1/3 (.441) = .626
(note that this is less than Amherst's current SOS, so it will pull the SOS down)
Amherst's updated SOS: [ 16 (.638) + 1 (.626) ] / 17 = .637 SOS
Chicago: 18 games played with .649 SOS
Webster: .905 Win Pct., .469 OWP
Contribution to Chicago's SOS: .905 OWP, .469 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.905) + 1/3 (.469) = .760
Chicago's updated SOS: [ 18 (.649) + 1 (.760) ] / 19 = .655 SOS
NYU: 16 games played with .633 SOS
St. Joe's .895 Win Pct., .541 OWP
Contribution to NYU's SOS: .895 OWP, .541 OOWP >>> 2/3 (.895) + 1/3 (.541) = .777
NYU's updated SOS: [ 16 (.633) + 1 (.777) ] / 17 = .641 SOS
Actually I quoted the numbers exactly from the NCAA site that @deiscanton provided 2-3 weeks ago. No exaggeration or point I was trying to make.
In your post you said "SoS", but only now do I know that's
not what you presented. That "Toughest Schedule" ranking on the NCAA stats website that deiscanton referenced is for Opponents' Winning Percentage (OWP) with head-to-head results removed, it is
not the Strength of Schedule (SOS) that the soccer committees use for regional rankings and at-large selections. The OWP from that webpage is 2/3's of the SOS, but is
not the SOS.
Your use of "SoS" confused me because I immediately knew that the SOS (used by the selection committee) could not jump that much due to one game this late in the season even if playing a truly top team. I was comparing what you called SOS (but was actually OWP) to the actual end of regular season SOS (apples to oranges) and the jump was huge, e.g. from .649 to .692 for Chicago and it seemed that you were suggesting that a team's SOS could jump in the neighborhood of 40 points in one game at the end of the season. My response was in reaction to that apparent suggestion.
While the SOS computation used by the selection committees has some flaws IMO, by going beyond just OWP and incorporating OOWP it accounts to some degree for a team having a gaudy record due to playing a weak schedule. I don't think it does enough as my computations for Chicago show that their SOS improves playing Webster when I think most of us subjectively know it should go down. But it's much better an indicator that merely OWP.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 12, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
I put my first half notes in the 2021 Games Notes thread. Done and dusted, not even close really. More goals will be had for W&L.
Just as a matter of consistency, is there a preference where my game notes go? In the thread I mentioned, or here? Will do whatever.
I don't think it matters where you post them, I'll still read them either way. Thanks again for doing these recaps, really appreciate the work you put into them.
FW, I knew I shouldn't have put my trust in deiscanton! Joking of course, but I should have known yourself or others would have referenced those NCAA statistics before at least in terms of what you mean by SoS.
I have a bit of a math phobia, so in another 10 years I still won't be able to follow the calculation.
Now, if anyone wants me to help them understand Heidegger....
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 12, 2021, 04:45:41 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 12, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
I put my first half notes in the 2021 Games Notes thread. Done and dusted, not even close really. More goals will be had for W&L.
Just as a matter of consistency, is there a preference where my game notes go? In the thread I mentioned, or here? Will do whatever.
I don't think it matters where you post them, I'll still read them either way. Thanks again for doing these recaps, really appreciate the work you put into them.
Me too :-)
Absolutely brilliant set piece goal for the Bishops in the 88th minute. Give credit to Knox for a hard fought match but OWU controlled this one and will be moving on.
OWU scores off a Gomez free kick w/ less than 2 min remaining to make it 1-0 v. Knox. Brutal way to lose for Knox but props to them for holding OWU scoreless for so long.
Easier said than done, but after fighting that long you can't foul Gomez in those spots multiple times inside of two minutes. Dude is lethal. Not many pure soccer players better than him in the country.
This Denison vs Covenant game is pretty good as expected. Evenly matched teams with Covenant having the slight advantage. I feel like there is another goal in this one.
Still feel like Denison may pull this out, but a total role reversal for them after last 2 game where their strategy was crystal clear. They look like they don't know what to do. This looks like Denison against Wooster or Hiram rather than OWU or Kenyon.
Final from Lexington, VA:
Covenant 1
Denison 0
Calvin up 1-0. What was up with that camera angle? Regardless, the announcer recapped it with the most monotone voice I think I've ever heard.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2021, 07:16:00 PM
Calvin up 1-0. What was up with that camera angle? Regardless, the announcer recapped it with the most monotone voice I think I've ever heard.
Yeah, this broadcast is totally subpar for OWU standards. Not even sure how Calvin scored. Will the camera not turn all the way to the right?
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
2-0, barely saw the goal. Did it slip through the goalie's hands? The right side of the screen was dead on with the right post!
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2021, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
2-0, barely saw the goal. Did it slip through the goalie's hands? The right side of the screen was dead on with the right post!
I'm not sure. I thought the GK looked horrible on both goals but very hard to tell. Maybe he had no chance.
Wouldn't be shocked if the UAA is down to 1-2 teams by Sunday night.
UR needs a goal before the half to make this moderately competitive.
When I first tuned in (before getting my bearings) I thought Rochester was in the dark uniforms and Calvin was in white. Was about to post about how Calvin was still on the bus. Got my bearings and then first goal happened.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
Wouldn't be shocked if the UAA is down to 1-2 teams by Sunday night.
Maybe the UAA need a tournament like everyone else, or just not have 8 teams from their league and several other good leagues just getting 1 bid.
Hey BracketMaster, how many had Calvin getting to the Final 4?
I love how Souders goes out on the field just before 2nd half kickoff and gets in the huddle with his team. Saw him down that down 1-0 to OWU at the half in a round of 32 game and they came back and won and I believe went on to the Final 4. As long as they're not playing Tufts they're good shape. I've seen them win at OWU in the round of 32, at Messiah in Sweet 16, and at Kenyon in Elite 8. Incredible record of success and at worst 3rd best program in the country over past decade.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 12, 2021, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
Wouldn't be shocked if the UAA is down to 1-2 teams by Sunday night.
Maybe the UAA need a tournament like everyone else, or just not have 8 teams from their league and several other good leagues just getting 1 bid.
List all the leagues better than the UAA top to bottom. I'll wait.
Also, with the how spread out the teams are, UAA league tourney will never happen. Not Rochester's fault the committee gave them the bid, take up the gripes with the powers that be.
This was always gonna be a strange year results wise. These teams didn't play for about 20 months, and a lot of rosters are leaning on young guys more than ever. Hence the inconsistency in results. Conference championship weekend alone produced a barrel load of upsets.
I've done that trip from Central Ohio to Rochester. Long ride after disappointment.
And just to clarify for myself, I've consistently said the that UAA is clearly one of the top two conferences. I think their teams are very good and and I don't think there is any team in the country I'd rather avoid in the 1st round as much as Calvin. Plus, I think at least two UAAs got a very bad deal on location placement...Chicago (who still should survive the weekend but won't be easy) and Wash U.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
Can anyone explain why Rochester was thrown into the Midwest quadrant? I know they're less than 6 hrs away from OWU which isn't too bad, but still feels weird seeing a New York team in there with the rest. Any chance Rochester only received the at-large due to geographical reasons? Obviously it wouldn't make sense to have Wes in this quadrant but were there no better candidates than UR here? I mean they're a team that finished below 6-7-3 Brandeis in UAA...and now they're down 4-0 first round and could easily be 5 or 6.
PN I'm sure Calvin loved this UR draw before the game even started and I was surprised to see quite a few people predict a Rochester W in their brackets. If Calvin had hypothetically played a team like Wesleyan I'd bet a lot on Wes not being down 4-0 at any point in the game. Anyways I'm hoping for first round exits for Rochester, Swarthmore and SUNY Oneonta...none of them should be here imo
There are just too many conferences. I think some conference consolidation would resolve the at large griping (Never gonna happen btw). D1 is almost half and half AQ and at large bids.
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 12, 2021, 08:32:20 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
Can anyone explain why Rochester was thrown into the Midwest quadrant? I know they're less than 6 hrs away from OWU which isn't too bad, but still feels weird seeing a New York team in there with the rest. Any chance Rochester only received the at-large due to geographical reasons? Obviously it wouldn't make sense to have Wes in this quadrant but were there no better candidates than UR here? I mean they're a team that finished below 6-7-3 Brandeis in UAA...and now they're down 4-0 first round and could easily be 5 or 6.
PN I'm sure Calvin loved this UR draw before the game even started and I was surprised to see quite a few people predict a Rochester W in their brackets. If Calvin had hypothetically played a team like Wesleyan I'd bet a lot on Wes not being down 4-0 at any point in the game. Anyways I'm hoping for first round exits for Rochester, Swarthmore and SUNY Oneonta...none of them should be here imo
Careful there man, people are passionate this time of year, I got smoted a minute ago for speaking my mind :)
BTW... I know it was you Fredo.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 12, 2021, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 12, 2021, 08:32:20 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
Can anyone explain why Rochester was thrown into the Midwest quadrant? I know they're less than 6 hrs away from OWU which isn't too bad, but still feels weird seeing a New York team in there with the rest. Any chance Rochester only received the at-large due to geographical reasons? Obviously it wouldn't make sense to have Wes in this quadrant but were there no better candidates than UR here? I mean they're a team that finished below 6-7-3 Brandeis in UAA...and now they're down 4-0 first round and could easily be 5 or 6.
PN I'm sure Calvin loved this UR draw before the game even started and I was surprised to see quite a few people predict a Rochester W in their brackets. If Calvin had hypothetically played a team like Wesleyan I'd bet a lot on Wes not being down 4-0 at any point in the game. Anyways I'm hoping for first round exits for Rochester, Swarthmore and SUNY Oneonta...none of them should be here imo
Careful there man, people are passionate this time of year, I got smoted a minute ago for speaking my mind :)
BTW... I know it was you Fredo.
Post of the day. If you can use smoted and a Fredo in the same post: you win! ;D
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:57:14 PM
Hey BracketMaster, how many had Calvin getting to the Final 4?
Only 6 picked Calvin to make the final four...and for what it is worth no one picked Rochester to make the final four.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 12, 2021, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:31:46 PM
I think somebody forgot to tell Rochester that they got an at large bid. Wesleyan must be sick watching this.
And looking ahead, there's no team in the country, including any NCAC teams, that feel more at home at Roy Rike Field at Dr. Jay Martin Soccer Complex than Calvin. A home away from home.
2-0, barely saw the goal. Did it slip through the goalie's hands? The right side of the screen was dead on with the right post!
UR was playing with 10 men as the CB left to adjust equipment. Calvin took advantage with a smart pass into space that might have been occupied by the missing back.
Second goal was a beautiful and strong header off the corner service - no fault by the keeper. Left after that as the difference in quality on this night was not in doubt in my mind.
11 am at Otterbein tomorrow- hope to get to see all three games in Central Ohio tomorrow.
Welcome back! And what timing!
Now I remember seeing a UR player come back in after the 1st goal. I think that was their best player...Eisold.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 10:04:38 PM
Welcome back! And what timing!
Now I remember seeing a UR player come back in after the 1st goal. I think that was their best player...Eisold.
Thanks! Only caught a handful of games in person this season, saw more on video broadcasts.
It was Eisold - he was telling the bench he was having trouble breathing due to the tightness of those health monitor harnesses some players wear. By rule he had to leave the field to take it off and was not allowed back until UR's next opportunity to sub.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 12, 2021, 08:16:51 PM
Also, with the how spread out the teams are, UAA league tourney will never happen.
Why can't they play a 4 team play-off like most other conferences? They could either do it at one central location on Fri/Sun or travel to higher seed Tue/Sat. That's not too much to ask for these schools.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 12, 2021, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 07:34:57 PM
Wouldn't be shocked if the UAA is down to 1-2 teams by Sunday night.
Maybe the UAA need a tournament like everyone else, or just not have 8 teams from their league and several other good leagues just getting 1 bid.
While the UAA had a down year in 2019 (receiving only two bids, with neither of those teams making it to the second weekend), there were three UAA teams in the final eight in 2018 and four UAA teams in the final eight in 2017, and in each of those years, half of the final four teams came from the UAA. Seems to me that not having a tournament has worked just fine for the UAA, notwithstanding UR's face plant yesterday.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 12, 2021, 08:40:49 PM
There are just too many conferences. I think some conference consolidation would resolve the at large griping (Never gonna happen btw). D1 is almost half and half AQ and at large bids.
It could be worse, like American football which only gets 32 spots due to costs (per the NCAAs own access ratio they probably should have 8-10 more). There are 27 Pool A conferences and only 5 at-large bids. Thanks to that there is a very real possibility a one-loss top ten team will be left home on Monday.
Quote from: Ejay on November 13, 2021, 07:49:24 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 12, 2021, 08:16:51 PM
Also, with the how spread out the teams are, UAA league tourney will never happen.
Why can't they play a 4 team play-off like most other conferences? They could either do it at one central location on Fri/Sun or travel to higher seed Tue/Sat. That's not too much to ask for these schools.
Why should they have to? This is D3 soccer, not D1 basketball. Every UAA school is very demanding academically, especially Chicago and Wash U but all of them really. Why burden the "student-athletes" (a term that D1 basketball and football need, in order to pretend that players who never intend to graduate are actually students) at those schools with further time away from being students? The travel needed, all by itself, significantly takes away from study time at a crucial point in the semester.
The way I see it, there are advantages and drawbacks to either scenario. With a conference tournament there is genuine hope in terms of a low-seed team that went a little above .500 to make the tournament — thinking 2014 Bowdoin (8-6-1) or 2015 Babson (10-6-2) — something that a UAA team with a comparable record would probably have no chance with given the current setup. On the flip side, having a decent season in the UAA with a few good ranked results (even if you don't win the UAA) perhaps gives the committee something to think about given the competitiveness of the league, whereas you might not get as good of a look-in if you had the same record and got knocked out of your conference tournament early.
ADDENDUM: Obviously the selection committee has "objective criteria" to use, so the whole "better look-in" thing should theoretically not be part of it all. That said, the decisions are made by people, not a computer, so in terms of marginal decisions and trying to compare apples to apples (no Rochester pun intended) you would be kidding yourself if you didn't think some level of subjectivity seeps into the process.
Conference playoff seems a useless exercise,it forces teams to compress their season and results in more injuries to players.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 04:01:46 PM
Any UAA and Wash U faithful have any color to provide about Wash U? Best season in years, wins UAA, skyrockets up the polls, but not much buzz about the Bears at all and not clear if most view them as true contenders.
I looked at some of their box scores. Just a few where clearly dominated and within UAA only game with real advantage was CWRU. Pretty even stats with Hope, North Park, and Brandeis. In 3-0 win over CMU the Tartans led shots 13-9 and corners 7-2. Otherwise, significant stats advantage for UR, NYU, and especially Emory -- 19-8 shots and 6-1 corners -- and Chicago -- 14-4 shots and 11-0 corners. Emory was a 0-0 game. I understand Chicago was chasing the game after Wash U scored in 5th minute, but still, 14-4 and 11-0 seems significant. Does Wash U get a goal and then sit in the rest of the game? Will this approach serve them in the NCAA tournament?
And for a team so highly valued, having to probably play North Park a second time at North Park seems pretty brutal. I think I would lean North Park in that one.
Since WUPHF and I are the only WashU partisans who regularly post here, I'll take a stab. Problem is, I only watched (parts of) two WashU games this year, which happen to be the two games you mentioned--Emory and Chicago. OTOH, I did watch almost every game they played in 2019.
The Emory game was kind of weird. Emory was completely on the front foot during the first half. When they had the ball, WashU could barely get past the center line, and on those rare occasions when they could, they were promptly dispossessed. The second half was completely different, and while both teams had good chances, I thought that WashU's were better. Hard to see how that game wound up goalless.
I only caught the second half of the Chicago game and they were clearly packing it in (too much so, IMO--it reminded me of an NFL that goes to a prevent defense too early and allows the other team to drive down the field in 45 seconds), but they had a one-goal lead and knew that they would win the league even with a tie. Hard to take much away from that other than to be a little concerned about the strategy.
With that said, the strength of the team is clearly defense. Shaw (#2), a senior CB, has been a starter since more or less the day he walked onto the campus, and for my money, Lamba (#10), was one of the two best players on that 2019 team (although my recollection is that I preferred seeing him in the midfield). In the attack, most of the goals come from Rivas (#4, who was my other choice as one of the two best players on that 2019 team, when he used as a back) and Culver (#11), but Wolf (#14), who led the team in scoring in 2019 despite inexplicably limited playing time, and who has also missed a lot of time this year (potentially due to injury, as he did not play for about a month) is dangerous.
As I've posted elsewhere, I'm not too happy that WashU was paired with NPU. Of course it's not the NCAA's fault that WashU has an excellent women's team and that the women get hosting priority this year, but I think that NPU is a considerably stronger opponent than the top seeds in the other regions are likely to face in the second round.
Quote from: Ejay on November 13, 2021, 07:49:24 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 12, 2021, 08:16:51 PM
Also, with the how spread out the teams are, UAA league tourney will never happen.
Why can't they play a 4 team play-off like most other conferences? They could either do it at one central location on Fri/Sun or travel to higher seed Tue/Sat. That's not too much to ask for these schools.
I believe the point of the original post isn't that they don't play a tournament, it's that everyone else does and it often adversely skews the worthiness of top performers in those conferences. Rochester's gift of an at large bid wasn't their fault, but rather just an example of giving too much credit for being in a "great conference". And if they had played a conf tourney, and found a way to win against NYU, they still would be a good but not great team. More likely, however, they would have lost to NYU and had their regional ranking go down and been less of a threat to fool the committee.
However, I actually think the UAA does it right and everyone else has it wrong, especially for D3 soccer. By definition, all but one team participating in a conf tourney will get at least one additional L or T that weakens their claim for an at-large, especially if a computer is being used in the analysis. Since there are so many conferences in D3 soccer, if you simply took the regular season winner from each conference and then the best at large teams, the field would certainly be a better representation of the most competitive teams. Those 8-10 teams in a conference all played the same schedule and one team earned the most points (tiebreakers would be agreed upon prior to the season). The UAA could still get 3 at large bids this year( which were fair), and the NESCAC could still get 4 if they deserved it (like they did), but across the country you would have teams with little room to argue since they had the whole season to earn their spot.
But more importantly, it's vital to get the most deserving team from the conference into the tournament. Basically 2/3 of the d3 soccer tourney are automatic bids, which already waters down the competition (i.e. already the best 64 teams in the country aren't in the tournament, but that's fine since it's great to have everyone getting a chance). But the overall competitiveness of the tourney is further diluted by allowing conf tourney winners to get their conference AQ - allowing teams that haven't shown over 2 months that they are the most competitive. As a comparison, the NCAA men's basketball tournament (the standard for sports entertainment) has 36 at-large bids and 32 auto bids. DI Hoops has the luxury of allowing the conference tourney upsets while not diluting the overall field, since the majority of the field will be picked by the committee.
Very nice build-up for Chicago's second goal. Passed around/through the pressure, stretching the D, one time finish. Well done.
Salem State and Conn College first round match is a 0-0 draw after extra time in New London, CT.
The match is heading to kicks from the mark to determine who advances to play tomorrow vs the winner of NYU vs St. Joe's Maine.
1:41 PM Eastern update-- Conn College advances on kicks from the mark, 3-2 after 5 rounds, to the round of 32 where the Camels will play the winner of NYU vs St. Joe's Maine tomorrow.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 09:13:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2021, 04:01:46 PM
Any UAA and Wash U faithful have any color to provide about Wash U? Best season in years, wins UAA, skyrockets up the polls, but not much buzz about the Bears at all and not clear if most view them as true contenders.
I looked at some of their box scores. Just a few where clearly dominated and within UAA only game with real advantage was CWRU. Pretty even stats with Hope, North Park, and Brandeis. In 3-0 win over CMU the Tartans led shots 13-9 and corners 7-2. Otherwise, significant stats advantage for UR, NYU, and especially Emory -- 19-8 shots and 6-1 corners -- and Chicago -- 14-4 shots and 11-0 corners. Emory was a 0-0 game. I understand Chicago was chasing the game after Wash U scored in 5th minute, but still, 14-4 and 11-0 seems significant. Does Wash U get a goal and then sit in the rest of the game? Will this approach serve them in the NCAA tournament?
And for a team so highly valued, having to probably play North Park a second time at North Park seems pretty brutal. I think I would lean North Park in that one.
Since WUPHF and I are the only WashU partisans who regularly post here, I'll take a stab. Problem is, I only watched (parts of) two WashU games this year, which happen to be the two games you mentioned--Emory and Chicago. OTOH, I did watch almost every game they played in 2019.
The Emory game was kind of weird. Emory was completely on the front foot during the first half. When they had the ball, WashU could barely get past the center line, and on those rare occasions when they could, they were promptly dispossessed. The second half was completely different, and while both teams had good chances, I thought that WashU's were better. Hard to see how that game wound up goalless.
I only caught the second half of the Chicago game and they were clearly packing it in (too much so, IMO--it reminded me of an NFL that goes to a prevent defense too early and allows the other team to drive down the field in 45 seconds), but they had a one-goal lead and knew that they would win the league even with a tie. Hard to take much away from that other than to be a little concerned about the strategy.
With that said, the strength of the team is clearly defense. Shaw (#2), a senior CB, has been a starter since more or less the day he walked onto the campus, and for my money, Lamba (#10), was one of the two best players on that 2019 team (although my recollection is that I preferred seeing him in the midfield). In the attack, most of the goals come from Rivas (#4, who was my other choice as one of the two best players on that 2019 team, when he used as a back) and Culver (#11), but Wolf (#14), who led the team in scoring in 2019 despite inexplicably limited playing time, and who has also missed a lot of time this year (potentially due to injury, as he did not play for about a month) is dangerous.
As I've posted elsewhere, I'm not too happy that WashU was paired with NPU. Of course it's not the NCAA's fault that WashU has an excellent women's team and that the women get hosting priority this year, but I think that NPU is a considerably stronger opponent than the top seeds in the other regions are likely to face in the second round.
I agree with this and I'll just add, I think the Bears are more content than most to sit back and play defense. They know they have one of the best, if not the best, defenses in the nation.
In the Chicago game, being up 1-0 was the equivalent of being up 2-0 as Chicago needed to win and the Bears needed to win or tie to get the championship. I do believe that second half would have looked quite different if NYU and Emory had won earlier in the day.
Babson up 1-0 on Cabrini on a header 5 minutes into the second. Great contact, headed down into the turf and into the far corner.
Very good header by #8 Babson to get Babson on the board.
MSU v Gordon in a lightning delay?
I wonder if after yesterday OWU will be sitting in at Home against Calvin and trying to counter with that #10? Should be one of the best games of the day at 5pm. Although some good ones b4 that as well.
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 02:43:06 PM
MSU v Gordon in a lightning delay?
Game back on and 0-0 25 min in MSU v Gordon. Wind has been a big factor today all over the Northeast. This MSU team looks better than years past. #15 very legit and they can attack. More athletic in the back as well.
Emory and Centre heading to OT.....NYU down 0-2 to St.Joe's.....Rowan gets a W for the NJAC
Messiah takes care of business against a scrappy, very quick Mt Aloysius side, 2-0. Impressions: the Mounties were stymied offensively by a stifling Falcon midfield and back line. They had only one real SOG, in the final minute or two, and no shots of any type for the first 35-40 minutes. Defensively however they were very quick, overly physical (most normal fouls were not called and they got away with some cheap shots), and well organized. The Falcons earned both goals, but he first a brilliant combination on a corner in the second minute. Jake Lent-Loop scored it, and on the other side of the field he brilliantly marked a fast, skilled forward who was never allowed to become dangerous. He and RB Marlotte are the players of the game IMO. Having now seen enough games to have an opinion, I think Jake is the best CB I have seen this year. On both ends of the field. AA caliber.
Babson 2-1 over Cabrini for the Beavers' first NCAA win in 10 years. I still expect Amherst to progress but I think Babson will give them a game. Looking forward to that one.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 13, 2021, 03:27:50 PM
Babson 2-1 over Cabrini for the Beavers' first NCAA win in 10 years. I still expect Amherst to progress but I think Babson will give them a game. Looking forward to that one.
I noticed Babo cut the grass real tight this week.
So Emory is playing Centre in the men's tournament ... and simultaneously, Emory is playing Centre in the women's tournament. That's quite a coincidence.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 03:32:03 PM
So Emory is playing Centre in the men's tournament ... and simultaneously, Emory is playing Centre in the women's tournament. That's quite a coincidence.
Men heading to PK's. Lynchburg / Hanover get Winner.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 03:35:07 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 03:32:03 PM
So Emory is playing Centre in the men's tournament ... and simultaneously, Emory is playing Centre in the women's tournament. That's quite a coincidence.
Men heading to PK's. Lynchburg / Hanover get Winner.
And Emory goes through, after being down in PKs. NYU down 2-1 with 28 minutes remaining.
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 03:47:51 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 03:35:07 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 03:32:03 PM
So Emory is playing Centre in the men's tournament ... and simultaneously, Emory is playing Centre in the women's tournament. That's quite a coincidence.
Men heading to PK's. Lynchburg / Hanover get Winner.
And Emory goes through, after being down in PKs. NYU down 2-1 with 28 minutes remaining.
Emory and Centre men battled to a 1-1 draw, and the Eagles advance to round 2 of the DIII men's tournament on kicks from the mark, 4-3 after 5 rounds.
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
4:02 PM Eastern-- Looks like we have a lightning delay in New London, CT, as a storm is moving quickly through the New England area. The game is suspended for the delay in the 75th minute. Delay could be about an hour or two at the most.
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
And the game has been suspended "until a later date" due to weather with 15:51 remaining. NYU had a chance about a minute earlier that I don't see how they missed. They seem to have had an awful lot of chances in the second half, although I was going back and forth between that game and Emory.
Incidentally, Massey had St. Josephs of Maine as the No. 55 team and gave them a 17% chance for the win.
NPU takes a 3-1 lead on Carleton, so it looks like it will be WashU at NPU tomorrow. And RUC beats Springfield in OT, 1-0.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
I saw they got a late Goal in the 87th minute from a veteran from the 2019 team... Creedon?? I think...They came back from conceding an early goal.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 04:09:28 PM
NPU takes a 3-1 lead on Carleton, so it looks like it will be WashU at NPU tomorrow. And RUC beats Springfield in OT, 1-0.
RUC/Springfield was an ECAC game
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
4:02 PM Eastern-- Looks like we have a lightning delay in New London, CT, as a storm is moving quickly through the New England area. The game is suspended for the delay in the 75th minute. Delay could be about an hour or two at the most.
They do not have lights....So if it is past 70th minute I think it is official. Or because it is an NCAA game do they just resume it tomorrow morning? Imagine having a whole night to not know who to prepare for.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 04:12:37 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
4:02 PM Eastern-- Looks like we have a lightning delay in New London, CT, as a storm is moving quickly through the New England area. The game is suspended for the delay in the 75th minute. Delay could be about an hour or two at the most.
They do not have lights....So if it is past 70th minute I think it is official. Or because it is an NCAA game do they just resume it tomorrow morning? Imagine having a whole night to not know who to prepare for.
Under NCAA Rule 7.5 of the NCAA Soccer Rules book, the game is official since it is past 70 minutes (See NCAA soccer rule 7.5.3) and St. Joe's Maine should advance as the winner of the Round 1 match vs NYU to play Connecticut College tomorrow in Round 2. Under NCAA soccer rules, a suspended game has to be completed the same day it is suspended if the game is to be resumed at all. Otherwise, it is a no contest if less than 70 minutes of game time has been completed, or the game is official if more than 70 minutes of play have elapsed. Under the NCAA Soccer rule book, the governing sports authority for the DIII Men's soccer championships is the DIII Men's Soccer Committee as well as the DIII Championships Committee.
PaulNewman likely has his Xanax out, and with good reason — Catholic has a goal waved off with a few minutes left before the interval. Cardinal player does his best Trent Alexander-Arnold impression in playing the ball quickly from a restart but the ref wasn't having it. Kenyon started bright and Martinez looks wily and energetic on the ball, but Catholic has grown into it. Well-poised and 0-0 at half.
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 04:37:12 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 04:12:37 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
4:02 PM Eastern-- Looks like we have a lightning delay in New London, CT, as a storm is moving quickly through the New England area. The game is suspended for the delay in the 75th minute. Delay could be about an hour or two at the most.
They do not have lights....So if it is past 70th minute I think it is official. Or because it is an NCAA game do they just resume it tomorrow morning? Imagine having a whole night to not know who to prepare for.
Under NCAA Rule 7.5 of the NCAA Soccer Rules book, the game is official since it is past 70 minutes (See NCAA soccer rule 7.5.3) and St. Joe's Maine should advance as the winner of the Round 1 match vs NYU to play Connecticut College tomorrow in Round 2. Under NCAA soccer rules, a suspended game has to be completed the same day it is suspended if the game is to be resumed at all. Otherwise, it is a no contest if less than 70 minutes of game time has been completed, or the game is official if more than 70 minutes of play have elapsed. Under the NCAA Soccer rule book, the governing sports authority for the DIII Men's soccer championships is the DIII Men's Soccer Committee as well as the DIII Championships Committee.
What a disaster to have your season finished without playing a full 90. So what happens if it was a tie when the game was postponed?
Quote from: blooter442 on November 13, 2021, 04:37:18 PM
PaulNewman likely has his Xanax out, and with good reason — Catholic has a goal waved off with a few minutes left before the interval. Cardinal player does his best Trent Alexander-Arnold impression in playing the ball quickly from a restart but the ref wasn't having it. Kenyon started bright and Martinez looks wily and energetic on the ball, but Catholic has grown into it. Well-poised and 0-0 at half.
Catholic is no stranger to getting hosed by the refs in the ncaa tournament, not sure why the goal was disallowed, pretty sure Catholic didn't ask for ten yards.
Entertaining first half for sure, Kenyon with the better chances but Catholic did settle in nicely and created a few chances of their own. Like I said previously, Catholic is dangerous on set pieces so we will see if they can capitalize on one in the second half. Kenyon is really direct with long balls when they are certainly capable of possessing through the midfield. I agree Martinez seems crafty and very good on the ball.
Looking forward to the second half Kenyon will have the wind with them this half.
Just like that, Kenyon scores a minute-and-a-half into the second. Ball pings around on a corner, guy made room for a shot and it might have taken a deflection on the way in. Tough blow for the Cardinals who have held their own (despite being outshot).
A second for the Lords about a minute after the first! Couldn't really tell what happened but a man running through shot from the top of the 18. Looked like a decent strike if not total laces. This game has really livened up.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 04:43:43 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 04:37:12 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 04:12:37 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 03:59:23 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 13, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Correction SJC scored off a free kick to go up 1-0 v. NYU, NYU actually wearing the white jerseys but they initially gave credit to NYU for scoring. St Joseph's ME now up 2-0 v. NYU off a PK. Maybe I overestimated NYU a little bit, first time watching them play.
Of course, you had to pick a game where the regular NYU goalkeeper Luca Mancuso once again is serving a 1 game suspension, this time for getting his 5th yellow card of the season last Saturday vs Brandeis. Not surprised in the least that the Monks are winning this one. Mancuso had to sit out the game where Mount St. Vincent beat NYU earlier this season because he got a red card in the previous match vs Carnegie Mellon.
4:02 PM Eastern-- Looks like we have a lightning delay in New London, CT, as a storm is moving quickly through the New England area. The game is suspended for the delay in the 75th minute. Delay could be about an hour or two at the most.
They do not have lights....So if it is past 70th minute I think it is official. Or because it is an NCAA game do they just resume it tomorrow morning? Imagine having a whole night to not know who to prepare for.
Under NCAA Rule 7.5 of the NCAA Soccer Rules book, the game is official since it is past 70 minutes (See NCAA soccer rule 7.5.3) and St. Joe's Maine should advance as the winner of the Round 1 match vs NYU to play Connecticut College tomorrow in Round 2. Under NCAA soccer rules, a suspended game has to be completed the same day it is suspended if the game is to be resumed at all. Otherwise, it is a no contest if less than 70 minutes of game time has been completed, or the game is official if more than 70 minutes of play have elapsed. Under the NCAA Soccer rule book, the governing sports authority for the DIII Men's soccer championships is the DIII Men's Soccer Committee as well as the DIII Championships Committee.
What a disaster to have your season finished without playing a full 90. So what happens if it was a tie when the game was postponed?
SJU's Twitter account says the game will resume at 7:30 on Conn College's turf field. https://twitter.com/SJCmonks/status/1459641980464599043
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 13, 2021, 04:12:30 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 04:09:28 PM
NPU takes a 3-1 lead on Carleton, so it looks like it will be WashU at NPU tomorrow. And RUC beats Springfield in OT, 1-0.
RUC/Springfield was an ECAC game
Oops. Too many games going on and I lost track.
Why is there a postseason ECAC tournament, anyway? Never really understood that.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 13, 2021, 04:56:53 PM
A second for the Lords about a minute after the first! Couldn't really tell what happened but a man running through shot from the top of the 18. Looked like a decent strike if not total laces. This game has really livened up.
Yup Catholic starts slow in the second half similar to how they started the first half. Some poor defending on the first goal and a really good strike on the second. Game over with Catholics goalie making a reckless challenge..... and as I type Kenyon puts in a third.
Messiah vs Kenyon should be a doozy
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
It's out there. I wasn't at a desk for the game, but was able to do my own highlights: https://boxcast.tv/view/ncaa-1st-round-mens-soccer-johns-hopkins-vs-penn-st-harrisburg-591370
Worth checking out both Hopkins goals. One is a nice cross and header at about minute 16, the winner comes in the 87th minute and would be a candidate for goal of the tournament (if that was a thing.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2021, 05:11:48 PM
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
It's out there. I wasn't at a desk for the game, but was able to do my own highlights: https://boxcast.tv/view/ncaa-1st-round-mens-soccer-johns-hopkins-vs-penn-st-harrisburg-591370
Worth checking out both Hopkins goals. One is a nice cross and header at about minute 16, the winner comes in the 87th minute and would be a candidate for goal of the tournament (if that was a thing.)
The winner really is a great goal. St. Olaf's third today is also worth checking out.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
I saw they got a late Goal in the 87th minute from a veteran from the 2019 team... Creedon?? I think...They came back from conceding an early goal.
PSUH scored in the first five minutes on a nice exchange and slotting home a goal. Hopkins scored about 10 minutes later on a header off of a very nice cross to the near post.
The winning goal came from Liam Creedon who lined up a half volley from about 25 yards and smacked it upper ninety with an arc. Unstoppable shot and given the moment (87th min) a truly brilliant goal. The stats might look level, but hopkins possession was on display today. Should be a very good match tomorrow against hosts JCU (330p kickoff).
No one watching the W&L game? The score doesn't reflect the run of play.
Just tuned in to watch them break the tie. Thanks, Mom! :D
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 13, 2021, 05:11:48 PM
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 03:53:45 PM
Hopkins beat PSU-Harrisburg 2-1. The game was not streamed ??? (live stats only) so not much to add.
It's out there. I wasn't at a desk for the game, but was able to do my own highlights: https://boxcast.tv/view/ncaa-1st-round-mens-soccer-johns-hopkins-vs-penn-st-harrisburg-591370
Worth checking out both Hopkins goals. One is a nice cross and header at about minute 16, the winner comes in the 87th minute and would be a candidate for goal of the tournament (if that was a thing.)
Very sick goal...lol the announcer you could tell was tired dealing with Hopkins possession as he seemed annoyed with it all right b4 the Goal. the 87th minute Goal is at about 2:16 45 I think
Trinity TX 1-1 Pac Luth with 7min left ingame.
OWU v Calvin 0-0 Half
Wash College up 1-0 on SLU in 1st Half
Swat and Stevens in a long lightning delay at 0-0 with 7 min left.
Trinity and Pacific Lutheran heading to OT. Pacific Lutheran is apparently in a serious financial hole. Also a censured AAUP University....
An absolutely sick Goal for Calvin to go up 1-0 on a bad OWU giveaway in their own end. That has got to be the Goal of the Tournament so far. Another Twigg??
Hopkins 2nd goal was way better
Both were pretty sick...
This OWU announcer is either announcing a calm quiet Tennis match or a really tense cat burglary in process.
The St. Joseph's twitter feed says the game v. NYU is supposed to resume at 7:30 pm. Not sure how that is possible if there are no lights (as an earlier post indicated) but I am not familiar with the venue.
Separate turf field with lights I believe. Not sure if there will be any video in that case
The OWU video also has a strange, annoying buzz. OWU used to have excellent broadcast with good PbP.
Game not over but give Calvin their props. I used to underestimate them because they look a little rag-taggy which may be the uniforms, but they win and win and win. Souders is just an unreal coach.
I hope Brown knows what he's doing with Kenyon. He played 4-5 kids who rarely play and then another regular sub, and at least 3 of them including the regular sub lost the ball easily like 20 out of 20 times. Seemed weird to have all those guys on the pitch with just a 3-1 lead and Catholic easily could have made the game 3-2. Maybe strategizing to have key guys rested for tomorrow, but concerned that a regular sub looked so lackadaisical and he was one of the players completely oblivious on the play Catholic scored on that got called back. Credit to Catholic for fighting to the end.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 06:22:10 PM
Both were pretty sick...
This OWU announcer is either announcing a calm quiet Tennis match or a really tense cat burglary in process.
Gotta say I LOLd on this one
EDIT: I tuned in for the final moments of this match and the announcer sounded tranquilized. The camera didn't keep up with the action, and they ended the broadcast 2 seconds after the final horn.
Blast from the past....Loras knocks out North Central....Scoreboard earlier said North Central won.
Also was confused by Midd game as F&M screen score said Oneonta won.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 13, 2021, 04:37:18 PM
PaulNewman likely has his Xanax out, and with good reason — Catholic has a goal waved off with a few minutes left before the interval. Cardinal player does his best Trent Alexander-Arnold impression in playing the ball quickly from a restart but the ref wasn't having it. Kenyon started bright and Martinez looks wily and energetic on the ball, but Catholic has grown into it. Well-poised and 0-0 at half.
I echo this description of the first half, which I attended. It was damp and cold, with the best seats fully in the shade, so I didn't stay for the second half—when Kenyon wiped them out, judging from the 4-1 final score. What happened, that the Catholic keeper got a straight red?
Kenyon was clearly the better team in the first half, so the result isn't surprising. I would say, the Messiah-Kenyon match tomorrow is the toughest early game in the tournament for anyone, even tougher than Calvin-OWU.
Pacific Lutheran beat Trinity in PKs.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 06:33:31 PM
The OWU video also has a strange, annoying buzz. OWU used to have excellent broadcast with good PbP.
Game not over but give Calvin their props. I used to underestimate them because they look a little rag-taggy which may be the uniforms, but they win and win and win. Souders is just an unreal coach.
I hope Brown knows what he's doing with Kenyon. He played 4-5 kids who rarely play and then another regular sub, and at least 3 of them including the regular sub lost the ball easily like 20 out of 20 times. Seemed weird to have all those guys on the pitch with just a 3-1 lead and Catholic easily could have made the game 3-2. Maybe strategizing to have key guys rested for tomorrow, but concerned that a regular sub looked so lackadaisical and he was one of the players completely oblivious on the play Catholic scored on that got called back. Credit to Catholic for fighting to the end.
My guess is resting the starters. Once the Falcons got their second goal, the starters left and didn't return.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 06:44:54 PM
Pacific Lutheran beat Trinity in PKs.
Wow. The tournament is phenomenal and brutal.
I just checked the NSN channel on my Roku TV, and it is stating that the suspended game of St. Joe's Maine vs NYU is scheduled to resume at 7:30 PM Eastern on a soccer pitch in the New London, CT area that has lights.
It is scheduled to resume with St. Joe's Maine having a 2-1 lead over NYU in approx the 74th minute.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on November 13, 2021, 06:44:54 PM
Pacific Lutheran beat Trinity in PKs.
The Lutes "friggin storming the field"......Actually they hit 4 good kicks.
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
I just checked the NSN channel on my Roku TV, and it is stating that the suspended game of St. Joe's Maine vs NYU is scheduled to resume at 7:30 PM Eastern on a soccer pitch in the New London, CT area that has lights.
It is scheduled to resume with St. Joe's Maine having a 2-1 lead over NYU in approx the 74th minute.
What a sh*t show....4 hours later...just find a random field and start er up
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 13, 2021, 06:50:49 PM
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
I just checked the NSN channel on my Roku TV, and it is stating that the suspended game of St. Joe's Maine vs NYU is scheduled to resume at 7:30 PM Eastern on a soccer pitch in the New London, CT area that has lights.
It is scheduled to resume with St. Joe's Maine having a 2-1 lead over NYU in approx the 74th minute.
What a sh*t show....4 hours later...just find a random field and start er up
I was not able to look at the St. Joe's Monks twitter feed until now, but according to their twitter feed, the tweet was sent around 5 PM Eastern on their feed that the game would be resumed at Silfen Field on the Conn College campus, which is their supplemental turf pitch with lights. The game started on the grass pitch at Harkness Field. NSN is providing coverage of the conclusion of the match.
It was best to wait though. The storm that just passed through Connecticut, RI, and MA over the past few hours triggered at least four tornado warnings in Rhode Island and SE Massachusetts, including Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod. There was also a lot of damage from this system on Long Island, NY.
thought that game was over ? St Joes 2-1.
Amidst all the excitement, Hanover knocks out Lynchburg in OT (unless the scoreboard is wrong).
Quote from: Falconer on November 13, 2021, 06:41:31 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 13, 2021, 04:37:18 PM
PaulNewman likely has his Xanax out, and with good reason — Catholic has a goal waved off with a few minutes left before the interval. Cardinal player does his best Trent Alexander-Arnold impression in playing the ball quickly from a restart but the ref wasn't having it. Kenyon started bright and Martinez looks wily and energetic on the ball, but Catholic has grown into it. Well-poised and 0-0 at half.
I echo this description of the first half, which I attended. It was damp and cold, with the best seats fully in the shade, so I didn't stay for the second half—when Kenyon wiped them out, judging from the 4-1 final score. What happened, that the Catholic keeper got a straight red?
Kenyon was clearly the better team in the first half, so the result isn't surprising. I would say, the Messiah-Kenyon match tomorrow is the toughest early game in the tournament for anyone, even tougher than Calvin-OWU.
Kenyon scored twice quickly in the second half to go up 2-0. Catholics keeper recklessly came out of his box and challenged with a slide tackle where he completely took out the Lord on a breakaway, deserving a red. That was basically the nail in Catholics coffin, although cheers to them for scoring a man down and fighting to the end and credit to the backup keeper who made a lot of good saves or else the score line could have gotten really ugly. Kenyon vs Messiah is a very interesting second round matchup.
Quote from: camosfan on November 13, 2021, 06:59:14 PM
thought that game was over ? St Joes 2-1.
I got confused as well, looking at the NCAA soccer rules, and looking at the NCAA DIII Soccer Tournament Pre-Championship Handbook, it did not have explicit info about weather-related issues delaying games that was separate from the NCAA Soccer Rules book. However, the rules book did state that the match had to be resumed today if it was going to be resumed at all, and the game will resume on a separate turf field on the Conn College campus with lights at 7:30 PM Eastern with the score being St. Joe's leading over NYU 2-1 in the 74th minute. NSN will stream the conclusion of the game. Apparently, this was cleared by the NCAA DIII Men's Soccer Committee in advance.
thanks!
No video streaming from Silfen Field, but the match between St. Joe's Maine and NYU has resumed at 7:30 PM with the live stats up and running.
The match is now in the 77th minute, and it is still 2-1 St. Joe's Maine leading over NYU.
To recap, all of the goals came in the first half. Austin Ward got a brace for the Monks by scoring a goal in the 5th minute, and by scoring a penalty kick goal in the 18th minute.
NYU's goal came in the 28th minute from Oliver Kleban on a penalty kick goal.
Nick Vafiadas is in goal for NYU today, as NYU's regular goalkeeper, Luca Mancuso, is serving a 1 game suspension for yellow card accumulation.
Currently, NYU leading on shots over the Monks, 19-12, and leading, 7-5 in shots on target.
NYU has the lead on corners, 6-3
St. Joe's called for offsides 4 times in the match, while NYU was not called for offsides.
Each team has committed 7 fouls a piece.
St. Joe's has been booked with 2 yellow cards, while NYU has been booked with 1 yellow so far in the match.
Right now, the match is in the 81st minute with St. Joe's still leading 2-1 over NYU.
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Live video is now streaming from Silfen Field at Conn College on NSN, so I have the game up on the Roku TV.
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 07:40:08 PM
No video streaming from Silfen Field, but the match between St. Joe's Maine and NYU has resumed at 7:30 PM with the live stats up and running.
The match is now in the 77th minute, and it is still 2-1 St. Joe's Maine leading over NYU.
To recap, all of the goals came in the first half. Austin Ward got a brace for the Monks by scoring a goal in the 5th minute, and by scoring a penalty kick goal in the 18th minute.
NYU's goal came in the 28th minute from Oliver Kleban on a penalty kick goal.
Nick Vafiadas is in goal for NYU today, as NYU's regular goalkeeper, Luca Mancuso, is serving a 1 game suspension for yellow card accumulation.
Currently, NYU leading on shots over the Monks, 19-12, and leading, 7-5 in shots on target.
NYU has the lead on corners, 6-3
St. Joe's called for offsides 4 times in the match, while NYU was not called for offsides.
Each team has committed 7 fouls a piece.
St. Joe's has been booked with 2 yellow cards, while NYU has been booked with 1 yellow so far in the match.
Right now, the match is in the 81st minute with St. Joe's still leading 2-1 over NYU.
Streaming is on
NYU has scored the equalizer in the 89th minute on a goal from Nicholas Suter.
It looks like this match is going to golden goal extra time, and it is! End of regulation-- St. Joe's Maine 2, NYU 2.
It seems that the change to the turf field has done well for NYU.
Also, no annoying NSN commentator this time to screw things up on commentary.
Quote from: deiscanton on November 13, 2021, 07:53:26 PM
It seems that the change to the turf field has done well for NYU.
Also, no annoying NSN commentator this time to screw things up on commentary.
And NYU wins it, which seemed inevitable. They had so many good opportunities, both on the original field and on the turf, and the only question was whether they could finish.
Golden goal scored by NYU's Arkan Tahsilgarodu in the 100th minute to give NYU the 3-2 win over St. Joe's Maine in extra time.
NYU will play Conn College at 1 PM Eastern tomorrow in Round 2, and Luca Mancuso will be back in goal for NYU tomorrow after serving the 1 game suspension today for yellow card accumulation.
Also, I thought that I'd point out that Washington University, Washington College, and Washington & Lee all advanced. It was a shame that Mary Washington wasn't invited this year, thus eliminating the potential for an all-Washington Final Four.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 08:14:16 PM
Also, I thought that I'd point out that Washington University, Washington College, and Washington & Lee all advanced. It was a shame that Mary Washington wasn't invited this year, thus eliminating the potential for an all-Washington Final Four.
Of the three, just today, Washington College may have had the most impressive result.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
If Hanover and Messiah win, I think W&L would most likely host if the rule is 500 miles as they are the only school within that radius of the other 3. Messiah could host if the rule changed to 600 miles (547 miles according to TES between Hanover and Messiah vs. 449 Hanover to W&L). Rowan or Christopher Newport are fine for either school.
If Hanover and Kenyon win, then it depends on the mileage again. CNU to Kenyon is 550 miles while Rowan to Kenyon is 482. Hanover is obviously a relatively short hop. So if the rule is 600 miles, Kenyon is in play, but if it is 500 miles, probably only in play if Rowan wins (482 miles Rowan to Kenyon). Frankly, W&L would probably be the better choice, with a much more central location, but who knows?
Given the way the bracket is set up, it looks to me like W&L is the quadrant's highest seed. So I suspect they will host as all remaining schools are within 500 miles, let alone 600, and there is no conflict men/women, but it wouldn't be the first time the bracket setup in my opinion doesn't match where we think things should go. Either Kenyon or Messiah could host, given other scenarios, so long as Hanover wins and the radius is 600 miles.
I certainly don't see DIII splashing out for a flight for Emory if they don't have to.
Yeah, I assume it's W&L or between W&L and Messiah if Messiah wins. I know it's a good venue and usually a good field, but just noticed a lot of traction issues both days.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 09:36:53 PM
Yeah, I assume it's W&L or between W&L and Messiah if Messiah wins. I know it's a good venue and usually a good field, but just noticed a lot of traction issues both days.
BTW, CNU was in the Kenyon Sectional before in 2014. Lost in Elite 8 to OWU in PKs in 50 mph winds.
The two games in Chicago turned out to be more interesting than I think most people assumed they'd be.
The opener definitely appeared to be set up for one of those classic high-seed/low-seed mismatches that wind up with scores like W&L's over Baruch or Amherst's over Rosemont. UW-Superior didn't seem to belong on the same field as Wash U. But the Yellowjackets hung around long enough to make Wash U fans more than a little nervous, as the game remained knotted in a scoreless tie until the 75th minute.
More than anything, that was due to UW-Supe's 5'9 backup goalkeeper Payton Anderson, pressed into service today because the Yellowjackets' starting GK was red-carded in the waning minutes of the UMAC tourney championship game against Bethany Lutheran. (UW-Supe only won that game and got to go dancing because Anderson stepped between the pipes and immediately stopped a PK in the wake of the starter's red card, keeping the game level until the Yellowjackets scored a shortie in the early moments of OT.) Wash U's Nolan Wolf and Sergio Rivas repeatedly dribbled through the UW-Supe box and right to Anderson's doorstep as though the Yellowjackets defenders were road pylons. But Anderson stoned them four or five times at point-blank range.
The oddity is that Wash U finally broke through on a far more unlikely shot. Bears attacking mid Owen Culver, who for some reason hadn't had his number called all day, was inserted into the game for the first time by Wash U head coach Joe Clarke in the 75th minute. Thirty-eight seconds after stepping onto the pitch, Culver had the ball at his feet at the outer right corner of the UW-Supe box, with nobody anywhere near him and the Yellowjackets again frozen in paralysis. Culver could've stood there and brewed a fresh pot of coffee if he'd liked. Rather than dribble in closer, he tapped the ball to a spot a foot or two away that he liked better and then launched an upstairs strike that found the far side of the net past the diving Anderson. Given that the Wash U back line and GK Matt Martin were as immaculate as usual, plus UW-Supe's inability to maintain possession through midfield or accurately target and win a 50/50 longball, there was little chance that the boys from up north were going to level, and sure enough they didn't. But for 70+ minutes they sure had us wondering if this was a David vs. Goliath situation.
North Park didn't have nearly the lopsided matchup that Wash U had, but, still, there was no questioning which team had the better talent. But Carleton plays with a lot of moxie and intelligence, with more than enough of both to really hurt a better team (as St. Olaf will painfully attest). The Knights refused to go quietly. On two different occasions they cut an NPU two-goal lead in half, and, like the Wash U fans before them, the Vikings faithful kept one eye on the entrance to the panic room. But then a so-fast-it-was-a-blur Vikings counter in the 78th minute resulted in Noel Holm sending a beautiful diagonal through ball to the oncoming Tobias Lunde at the left side of the 18' stripe, which Toby slotted perfectly out of reach to the Knight GK's right to make it 4-2. Even then, Carleton kept up the furious pace, but never got close enough to launch another solid strike at GK Alfie Sward.
NPU's first three goals were all Peder Olsen tallies, marking the second time this year and the fifth time in his career that Olsen has scored a hat trick.
I like the way that Carleton plays, and I respected the Knights' performance immensely, but I found myself commenting on the air that if the Vikings play like this tomorrow against Wash U the Bears will maul them. Funny thing is, a few minutes after saying that I found myself thinking back a couple of hours and realized that there was probably a vibe among the Wash U players that if they don't finish their chances better tomorrow against North Park, they will be the ones who wind up on the wrong end of the Hedstrand Field scoreboard.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 09:38:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 09:36:53 PM
Yeah, I assume it's W&L or between W&L and Messiah if Messiah wins. I know it's a good venue and usually a good field, but just noticed a lot of traction issues both days.
BTW, CNU was in the Kenyon Sectional before in 2014. Lost in Elite 8 to OWU in PKs in 50 mph winds.
I bet they weren't the favorite to come out of their opening weekend quad!
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
The 600-mile threshold is for all D-III team sports (it's 500 miles for individual sports).
Reference TRANSPORTATION POLICIES on page 3 of the 2021-2022 DIVISION III CHAMPIONSHIPS TRANSPORTATION AND PER DIEM POLICIES (updated 11/11/21) (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/resources/travel/2021-22D3Champs_TravelPolicies.pdf)
Actually was the favorite of their pod in 2014, hosted, and beat Lynchburg and Stevens. Kenyon was the top seed of the quad and thus hosted. Do we know if W&L is the top seed or Messiah?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 09:54:29 PM
Actually was the favorite of their pod in 2014, hosted, and beat Lynchburg and Stevens. Kenyon was the top seed of the quad and thus hosted. Do we know if W&L is the top seed or Messiah?
We don't know. Or at least I don't. Interesting though.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 13, 2021, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
The 600-mile threshold is for all D-III team sports (it's 500 miles for individual sports).
Reference TRANSPORTATION POLICIES on page 3 of the 2021-2022 DIVISION III CHAMPIONSHIPS TRANSPORTATION AND PER DIEM POLICIES (updated 11/11/21) (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/resources/travel/2021-22D3Champs_TravelPolicies.pdf)
Thbaks. +k. So lots of options, though not many except buying a flight if Emory wins.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:00:22 PM
Amidst all the excitement, Hanover knocks out Lynchburg in OT (unless the scoreboard is wrong).
Not only that Hanover scored in the 88th minute to level and then in the 99th to Win. However, looking at their results from the Regular Season shows that they did beat some of the better Regional teams.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 08:18:42 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 13, 2021, 08:14:16 PM
Also, I thought that I'd point out that Washington University, Washington College, and Washington & Lee all advanced. It was a shame that Mary Washington wasn't invited this year, thus eliminating the potential for an all-Washington Final Four.
Of the three, just today, Washington College may have had the most impressive result.
Watching only some of this game SLU looked to have long stretches of dominating the ball but the final pass and finishing were really lacking. Wash College were sitting deep for long stretches and perfectly happy on the counter. For Sunday I think MSU is more talented going forward but Wash College is very organized defensively so it probably will be a 1-0 game for either side.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 13, 2021, 09:40:35 PM
The two games in Chicago turned out to be more interesting than I think most people assumed they'd be.
The opener definitely appeared to be set up for one of those classic high-seed/low-seed mismatches that wind up with scores like W&L's over Baruch or Amherst's over Rosemont. UW-Superior didn't seem to belong on the same field as Wash U. But the Yellowjackets hung around long enough to make Wash U fans more than a little nervous, as the game remained knotted in a scoreless tie until the 75th minute.
More than anything, that was due to UW-Supe's 5'9 backup goalkeeper Payton Anderson, pressed into service today because the Yellowjackets' starting GK was red-carded in the waning minutes of the UMAC tourney championship game against Bethany Lutheran. (UW-Supe only won that game and got to go dancing because Anderson stepped between the pipes and immediately stopped a PK in the wake of the starter's red card, keeping the game level until the Yellowjackets scored a shortie in the early moments of OT.) Wash U's Nolan Wolf and Sergio Rivas repeatedly dribbled through the UW-Supe box and right to Anderson's doorstep as though the Yellowjackets defenders were road pylons. But Anderson stoned them four or five times at point-blank range.
The oddity is that Wash U finally broke through on a far more unlikely shot. Bears attacking mid Owen Culver, who for some reason hadn't had his number called all day, was inserted into the game for the first time by Wash U head coach Joe Clarke in the 75th minute. Thirty-eight seconds after stepping onto the pitch, Culver had the ball at his feet at the outer right corner of the UW-Supe box, with nobody anywhere near him and the Yellowjackets again frozen in paralysis. Culver could've stood there and brewed a fresh pot of coffee if he'd liked. Rather than dribble in closer, he tapped the ball to a spot a foot or two away that he liked better and then launched an upstairs strike that found the far side of the net past the diving Anderson. Given that the Wash U back line and GK Matt Martin were as immaculate as usual, plus UW-Supe's inability to maintain possession through midfield or accurately target and win a 50/50 longball, there was little chance that the boys from up north were going to level, and sure enough they didn't. But for 70+ minutes they sure had us wondering if this was a David vs. Goliath situation.
North Park didn't have nearly the lopsided matchup that Wash U had, but, still, there was no questioning which team had the better talent. But Carleton plays with a lot of moxie and intelligence, with more than enough of both to really hurt a better team (as St. Olaf will painfully attest). The Knights refused to go quietly. On two different occasions they cut an NPU two-goal lead in half, and, like the Wash U fans before them, the Vikings faithful kept one eye on the entrance to the panic room. But then a so-fast-it-was-a-blur Vikings counter in the 78th minute resulted in Noel Holm sending a beautiful diagonal through ball to the oncoming Tobias Lunde at the left side of the 18' stripe, which Toby slotted perfectly out of reach to the Knight GK's right to make it 4-2. Even then, Carleton kept up the furious pace, but never got close enough to launch another solid strike at GK Alfie Sward.
NPU's first three goals were all Peder Olsen tallies, marking the second time this year and the fifth time in his career that Olsen has scored a hat trick.
I like the way that Carleton plays, and I respected the Knights' performance immensely, but I found myself commenting on the air that if the Vikings play like this tomorrow against Wash U the Bears will maul them. Funny thing is, a few minutes after saying that I found myself thinking back a couple of hours and realized that there was probably a vibe among the Wash U players that if they don't finish their chances better tomorrow against North Park, they will be the ones who wind up on the wrong end of the Hedstrand Field scoreboard.
Excellent recap and I did tune into the match for a couple minutes. You had a 2 man booth for a change.
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
If Hanover and Messiah win, I think W&L would most likely host if the rule is 500 miles as they are the only school within that radius of the other 3. Messiah could host if the rule changed to 600 miles (547 miles according to TES between Hanover and Messiah vs. 449 Hanover to W&L). Rowan or Christopher Newport are fine for either school.
If Hanover and Kenyon win, then it depends on the mileage again. CNU to Kenyon is 550 miles while Rowan to Kenyon is 482. Hanover is obviously a relatively short hop. So if the rule is 600 miles, Kenyon is in play, but if it is 500 miles, probably only in play if Rowan wins (482 miles Rowan to Kenyon). Frankly, W&L would probably be the better choice, with a much more central location, but who knows?
Given the way the bracket is set up, it looks to me like W&L is the quadrant's highest seed. So I suspect they will host as all remaining schools are within 500 miles, let alone 600, and there is no conflict men/women, but it wouldn't be the first time the bracket setup in my opinion doesn't match where we think things should go. Either Kenyon or Messiah could host, given other scenarios, so long as Hanover wins and the radius is 600 miles.
I certainly don't see DIII splashing out for a flight for Emory if they don't have to.
If Messiah women's team wins today I believe Messiah men would not be able to host as the women might host next round? I assume the women are a fairly high seed with only 2 losses. Just something else to consider.
Quote from: rudy on November 14, 2021, 06:56:44 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
If Hanover and Messiah win, I think W&L would most likely host if the rule is 500 miles as they are the only school within that radius of the other 3. Messiah could host if the rule changed to 600 miles (547 miles according to TES between Hanover and Messiah vs. 449 Hanover to W&L). Rowan or Christopher Newport are fine for either school.
If Hanover and Kenyon win, then it depends on the mileage again. CNU to Kenyon is 550 miles while Rowan to Kenyon is 482. Hanover is obviously a relatively short hop. So if the rule is 600 miles, Kenyon is in play, but if it is 500 miles, probably only in play if Rowan wins (482 miles Rowan to Kenyon). Frankly, W&L would probably be the better choice, with a much more central location, but who knows?
Given the way the bracket is set up, it looks to me like W&L is the quadrant's highest seed. So I suspect they will host as all remaining schools are within 500 miles, let alone 600, and there is no conflict men/women, but it wouldn't be the first time the bracket setup in my opinion doesn't match where we think things should go. Either Kenyon or Messiah could host, given other scenarios, so long as Hanover wins and the radius is 600 miles.
I certainly don't see DIII splashing out for a flight for Emory if they don't have to.
If Messiah women's team wins today I believe Messiah men would not be able to host as the women might host next round? I assume the women are a fairly high seed with only 2 losses. Just something else to consider.
If both were chosen to host, the men would get priority to be the host for the second weekend in an odd number year. Women had priority this weekend. Now this assumes the school also put into to host both a women's pod and a men's pod which I'm sure Messiah would have done.
In one of the those rare Headlines say it all.......Absolutely devastating..
https://www.gomonks.com/sports/msoc/index
NSN has posted both the original and conclusion.
https://www.nsnsports.net/colleges/connecticut-college/?bfplayvid=324610
NYU version-
https://gonyuathletics.com/news/2021/11/13/mens-soccer.aspx
This team looked much more comfortable on the turf. I think they give Conn a real fight today.
NYU Goals in the conclusion
1. Great turn and rip by NYU striker for one goal. Also an excellent 30 yard Run and Chip by the NYU Central Midfielder. Those are the dangerous little balls that create real problems for the defense. Right from the gut.
2. NYU #9 looks like a real character. An absolute nutter. Scores the winning Goal on a great finish after a couple bad Monks defensive mistakes and then celebrates running right thru the devastated St.Joe's bench. Takes some guts to do that as back in the day he wouldn't of gotten thru the bench like that.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 14, 2021, 04:41:43 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 13, 2021, 09:40:35 PM
The two games in Chicago turned out to be more interesting than I think most people assumed they'd be.
The opener definitely appeared to be set up for one of those classic high-seed/low-seed mismatches that wind up with scores like W&L's over Baruch or Amherst's over Rosemont. UW-Superior didn't seem to belong on the same field as Wash U. But the Yellowjackets hung around long enough to make Wash U fans more than a little nervous, as the game remained knotted in a scoreless tie until the 75th minute.
More than anything, that was due to UW-Supe's 5'9 backup goalkeeper Payton Anderson, pressed into service today because the Yellowjackets' starting GK was red-carded in the waning minutes of the UMAC tourney championship game against Bethany Lutheran. (UW-Supe only won that game and got to go dancing because Anderson stepped between the pipes and immediately stopped a PK in the wake of the starter's red card, keeping the game level until the Yellowjackets scored a shortie in the early moments of OT.) Wash U's Nolan Wolf and Sergio Rivas repeatedly dribbled through the UW-Supe box and right to Anderson's doorstep as though the Yellowjackets defenders were road pylons. But Anderson stoned them four or five times at point-blank range.
The oddity is that Wash U finally broke through on a far more unlikely shot. Bears attacking mid Owen Culver, who for some reason hadn't had his number called all day, was inserted into the game for the first time by Wash U head coach Joe Clarke in the 75th minute. Thirty-eight seconds after stepping onto the pitch, Culver had the ball at his feet at the outer right corner of the UW-Supe box, with nobody anywhere near him and the Yellowjackets again frozen in paralysis. Culver could've stood there and brewed a fresh pot of coffee if he'd liked. Rather than dribble in closer, he tapped the ball to a spot a foot or two away that he liked better and then launched an upstairs strike that found the far side of the net past the diving Anderson. Given that the Wash U back line and GK Matt Martin were as immaculate as usual, plus UW-Supe's inability to maintain possession through midfield or accurately target and win a 50/50 longball, there was little chance that the boys from up north were going to level, and sure enough they didn't. But for 70+ minutes they sure had us wondering if this was a David vs. Goliath situation.
North Park didn't have nearly the lopsided matchup that Wash U had, but, still, there was no questioning which team had the better talent. But Carleton plays with a lot of moxie and intelligence, with more than enough of both to really hurt a better team (as St. Olaf will painfully attest). The Knights refused to go quietly. On two different occasions they cut an NPU two-goal lead in half, and, like the Wash U fans before them, the Vikings faithful kept one eye on the entrance to the panic room. But then a so-fast-it-was-a-blur Vikings counter in the 78th minute resulted in Noel Holm sending a beautiful diagonal through ball to the oncoming Tobias Lunde at the left side of the 18' stripe, which Toby slotted perfectly out of reach to the Knight GK's right to make it 4-2. Even then, Carleton kept up the furious pace, but never got close enough to launch another solid strike at GK Alfie Sward.
NPU's first three goals were all Peder Olsen tallies, marking the second time this year and the fifth time in his career that Olsen has scored a hat trick.
I like the way that Carleton plays, and I respected the Knights' performance immensely, but I found myself commenting on the air that if the Vikings play like this tomorrow against Wash U the Bears will maul them. Funny thing is, a few minutes after saying that I found myself thinking back a couple of hours and realized that there was probably a vibe among the Wash U players that if they don't finish their chances better tomorrow against North Park, they will be the ones who wind up on the wrong end of the Hedstrand Field scoreboard.
Excellent recap and I did tune into the match for a couple minutes. You had a 2 man booth for a change.
We've had a two-man booth all season. Had one last spring as well during what was for NPU a glorified scrimmage season. My colorman is one of NPU's two graduate assistants in the sports information department. He was the goalkeeper for Colorado College's club soccer team as an undergraduate.
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on November 14, 2021, 07:10:15 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 14, 2021, 06:56:44 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 13, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
I don't know if W&L is favored to host a sectional or if that depends on results tomorrow, but the field appeared to be shaky with a lot of slipping and sliding.
Does anyone know if the soccer tournament handbook switched from 500 to 600 miles for flights? I know it is 600 this year for football. Regardless, if Emory wins, W&L will most likely host. They are the only school within 600 miles of Emory left in the possible quadrant (472 miles according to TES).
If Hanover and Messiah win, I think W&L would most likely host if the rule is 500 miles as they are the only school within that radius of the other 3. Messiah could host if the rule changed to 600 miles (547 miles according to TES between Hanover and Messiah vs. 449 Hanover to W&L). Rowan or Christopher Newport are fine for either school.
If Hanover and Kenyon win, then it depends on the mileage again. CNU to Kenyon is 550 miles while Rowan to Kenyon is 482. Hanover is obviously a relatively short hop. So if the rule is 600 miles, Kenyon is in play, but if it is 500 miles, probably only in play if Rowan wins (482 miles Rowan to Kenyon). Frankly, W&L would probably be the better choice, with a much more central location, but who knows?
Given the way the bracket is set up, it looks to me like W&L is the quadrant's highest seed. So I suspect they will host as all remaining schools are within 500 miles, let alone 600, and there is no conflict men/women, but it wouldn't be the first time the bracket setup in my opinion doesn't match where we think things should go. Either Kenyon or Messiah could host, given other scenarios, so long as Hanover wins and the radius is 600 miles.
I certainly don't see DIII splashing out for a flight for Emory if they don't have to.
If Messiah women's team wins today I believe Messiah men would not be able to host as the women might host next round? I assume the women are a fairly high seed with only 2 losses. Just something else to consider.
If both were chosen to host, the men would get priority to be the host for the second weekend in an odd number year. Women had priority this weekend. Now this assumes the school also put into to host both a women's pod and a men's pod which I'm sure Messiah would have done.
Thanks for the info. I can never remember the odd versus even year. Kenyon vs Messiah should be a well contested game today. While Messiah does not seem to have as many offensive weapons as they have had in the past..they have scoring spread out among quite a few so defenses cannot focus on one or two players. Having LG would certainly be nice but have to compete with who is healthy. Lent Koop has had a couple header goals either directly or indirectly off free kicks or corners. At 6'4" that's a weapon they haven't always had. Matt M, Trevor G, Luke K, Luke B, Ben L, etc all capable of being dangerous on the offensive end. Defense missing Adam C but Ben V stepped in and played very well.
Paul should be excited for this game back in Grantham! Good luck to your Kenyon team . Hmm .. Lords versus Messiah.... interesting.
Hello again, rudy. Definitely looking forward to the game and will be very surprised if it's not a tight with with either side having a good chance to take it. Of course wish it was at a more neutral site, and wondering where Lords would have been placed without loss to Denison, but it is what it is...in my mind two of the top 6-7 contenders in the 2nd round. That said, definitely some other huge 2nd round games today with Wash U-NP, Chicago-Otterbein, NYU-Conn, CNU-Rowan, JHU-JCU, Midd-F&M, etc.
One question before I try to go dark for a few hours lol....What is relationship between Mechanicsburg and Grantham....Mechanicsburg listed as tournament site but Messiah always referenced as in Grantham?
Amherst goes 1-0 up in the 2nd minute. Giammattei takes a shot from the top of the 18, the 'keeper dove to save, but the rebound sat right up for Derby who made no mistake. I guess if we're being super critical we could say that the 'keeper didn't get the ball far enough out of danger, but tough to tell and the shot had some decent velocity on it so I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
One thing that has not changed over the years with the Mammoths is that they'll come out in the first 10 minutes really hard to try to get a goal. When it works and they get the jump, their high press — plus the fact that the opponent then has to come out — means that they can make it very lopsided very quickly if they get an advantage. Will be curious to see how the Beavers respond.
2-0 Amherst, 3 minutes before halftime.
We've got a snow game in Ohio. Where's the hi-vis ball?! ;D
Hello everyone! Rowan Alumni here! Looking forward to the upcoming games today. Wondering if anyone who has seen Rowan and CNU play have any predictions for the game? My predictions today look like:
Messiah>Kenyon
Emory>Hanover
John Carrol> John Hopkins
F&M> Middlebury
SUNY> Kean
Tufts> Stevens
Wash College> Montclair
Redlands> Luthern
Conn College> NYU
3-0 Amherst off a corner scrum. Guy biked the ball back into the mix after it was punched away, header on goal, rebound slammed home. 2 rebounds today for the Mammoths and that looks like game over.
To the Beavers' credit, it was a 1-0 game for most of the first half, but that second just before the interval seemed like the dagger.
Messiah gets the jump on Kenyon from the spot. The Lords carried the early play but the Falcons broke quick, there was a great block by a Kenyon defender but the ball wasn't cleared and seemed like a sure foul. Do have to say the Messiah commentator said that they scored with "16:44 left in the first quarter."
To answer a question above: Messiah is located in the village of Grantham, and the post office (in space renter from the university) still displays that name. Several years ago however the post office officially dictated that Grantham would be part of Mechanicsburg. No one who's lived here longer than ten years ever calls it mechanicsburg. :D
Messiah is somehow still ahead, Kenyon throwing the kitchen sink at them with around 30 left. Lords doing everything but their final ball/decision making letting them down and somehow the Falcons survive.
And the dam breaks, Martinez knocks home the equalizer after a blocked shot. 1-1 with 25 left and no less than Kenyon deserves.
WashU goes down to defeat, losing 3-1 to NPU. I'm sure that Mr. Sager will post a complete write-up later, but the turning point was early in the second half, as NP got two early goals followed by Nolan Wolf being sent off due to a second yellow, taking the Bears down to 10 men. Wolfie got jobbed, but NPU was the better team on the day and deserved the victory.
Whoooooooey...Kenyon heads one off the underside of the bar, straight down on the line and somehow stays out.
The Messiah commentators are so stressed out lol
WOW, 2-1 Messiah completely against the run of play. A minute after the Messiah 'keeper makes an unbelievable save, the Falcons go the other way and get what seems to be the winner on the counter. Heartbreak for the Lords who deserved so much more, but that's the game.
Kenyon hits the post with around 5 seconds left and Messiah get it away. Lady luck was with the Falcons – who bent but did not break – today.
Probably the best game I have watched all year.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 04:58:39 PM
Kenyon hits the post with around 5 seconds left and Messiah get it away. Lady luck was with the Falcons – who bent but did not break – today.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 05:06:58 PM
Probably the best game I have watched all year.
My sample size is probably smaller than yours (~7), but it was easily the best. I'm generally neutral regarding the two but I was really impressed with the way Kenyon played with no fear and took the game to Messiah. But, when you have the individual quality that the Falcons have and you can stay in the game, you only need one moment (or two in this case) to make it count.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Hello again, rudy. Definitely looking forward to the game and will be very surprised if it's not a tight with with either side having a good chance to take it. Of course wish it was at a more neutral site, and wondering where Lords would have been placed without loss to Denison, but it is what it is...in my mind two of the top 6-7 contenders in the 2nd round. That said, definitely some other huge 2nd round games today with Wash U-NP, Chicago-Otterbein, NYU-Conn, CNU-Rowan, JHU-JCU, Midd-F&M, etc.
One question before I try to go dark for a few hours lol....What is relationship between Mechanicsburg and Grantham....Mechanicsburg listed as tournament site but Messiah always referenced as in Grantham?
Paul
Looks like Falconer answered your question. Lords played a heck of a game and got bit by the 1 goal tournament loss bug. Messiah has been on both sides of that and it's painful to not advance when clearly the better team on the day.
Their outside back with the long blonde hair reminded me of someone I know well that used to play for Messiah...ha. Very composed and crafty . And Martinez is a player.
As a Messiah fan, that was so hard to watch. Messiah just didn't play their game, mostly due to Kenyon's pressure I believe. However, I kept thinking Kenyon was winning the game everywhere except for execution in the final third. Not that Messiah was winning that "game" either. And that's what came back to haunt Kenyon.
Welp...obviously gutted...but also obviously extremely proud of how Kenyon performed. You don't hear the Messiah PbP guys often say that's the best team they've seen in years and that Kenyon deserved to win. They were starting to decompensate as the game wore on as they complained about the ref who gave them a PK, but overall they held it together and gave Kenyon their due. Lords gave Messiah a PK against the run of play (when I didn't see any need, like make them score), just kept coming and coming, probably dominated possession at least 70/30, and could have had at least 3-4 goals. Don't know how that header didnit go in, and that save at the right post by Messiah GK is now maybe best save I've seen...as was very hard shot to just inside the post through traffic and not even sure how Messiah GK saw it. Anf then hitting post inside last 15 secs. Several other very close calls. Anyway, always knew it was gonna be tough to advance but really hard when your team clearly did enough. But I give Messiah credit. They hunkered down and found a way even when put in a position they almost never face even on the very rare occasions when they lose.
And the tournament rolls on. Unfortunately this game by Kenyon probably did enough to have me stick around another year! And now Messiah is gonna play Hanover!
Quote from: rudy on November 14, 2021, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Hello again, rudy. Definitely looking forward to the game and will be very surprised if it's not a tight with with either side having a good chance to take it. Of course wish it was at a more neutral site, and wondering where Lords would have been placed without loss to Denison, but it is what it is...in my mind two of the top 6-7 contenders in the 2nd round. That said, definitely some other huge 2nd round games today with Wash U-NP, Chicago-Otterbein, NYU-Conn, CNU-Rowan, JHU-JCU, Midd-F&M, etc.
One question before I try to go dark for a few hours lol....What is relationship between Mechanicsburg and Grantham....Mechanicsburg listed as tournament site but Messiah always referenced as in Grantham?
Paul
Looks like Falconer answered your question. Lords played a heck of a game and got bit by the 1 goal tournament loss bug. Messiah has been on both sides of that and it's painful to not advance when clearly the better team on the day.
Their outside back with the long blonde hair reminded me of someone I know well that used to play for Messiah...ha. Very composed and crafty . And Martinez is a player.
Yep, rudy...and both New England kids. Hard for the seniors (across the country) like Muther, Upton, Hosmer-Quint, etc who lost a year.
I need a medic
LOL...and now I feel just a little bit worse, which I didn't think was possible.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 14, 2021, 05:43:23 PM
I need a medic
You and the PBP guys. Lol.
Congrats to the Jumbos. Love seeing 4 NESCAC teams in Sweet 16.
Those guys need a different sort of help
Middlebury goes to Franklin and Marshall and dominates. Coming away with a 2-0 win. Headed goals by Ben Powers in 1st half and Jordan Saint Louis in 2nd half. F and M had one shot off the bar with 11 minutes left. The got a pk with 2 minutes left, but Grady dove low to his right and knocked it away and keep the clean sheet. By far the best comprehensive effort from Midd this year.
I have to admit, I didn't expect the W&L/CNU - Messiah/Hanover sectional to be at Hanover... CNU gets to fly I'd assume at 670 miles. I can't imagine W&L or Messiah didn't put in to host, but who knows?
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 05:06:58 PM
Probably the best game I have watched all year.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 04:58:39 PM
Kenyon hits the post with around 5 seconds left and Messiah get it away. Lady luck was with the Falcons – who bent but did not break – today.
Can anyone provide a link to rewatch the Kenyon Messiah game (if it exists)?
Is it just me, or is anyone else thinking that after today, Tufts and Messiah might be on a collision course.
If so, there is loads of time to get the Popcorn and Beverages ready for the occasion.
Some other very dangerous teams in the mix as well from what I have seen.
Bothe Washington and Montclair St. look like possible final 4 teams (only one will still have that possibility in a few mins). A few Nescac boys bringing the heat as always.
This will be fun.
Shows that absence truly makes the heart grow fonder for football.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 14, 2021, 06:02:34 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 05:06:58 PM
Probably the best game I have watched all year.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 04:58:39 PM
Kenyon hits the post with around 5 seconds left and Messiah get it away. Lady luck was with the Falcons – who bent but did not break – today.
Can anyone provide a link to rewatch the Kenyon Messiah game (if it exists)?
Yup...you can stream it right out of my brain.
I looked myself and couldn't find it on Messiah site. Never could find the 2013 version either.
Didn't hear the PBP, but that's b/c I was there in person. I echo what the commentators said--Kenyon is the best team Messiah has played in some time. They out-possessed the Falcons (a rare thing in itself), matched the Falcons' overall speed (also rare), and have comparably high level skills (uncommon but not as rare). They did indeed have some back luck. I agree with PN that the save late in the game by Falcon keeper Jared Pavlovich was incredible--I knew the game was over when the shot was taken, but somehow he got a hand on it. The Kenyon keeper, on the other hand, wasn't really tested--a testament to the ten men in front of him. So, I can't fairly say that the Falcons had/have an advantage at keeper, but I am prepared to believe it could be true. Pavlovich is probably the best Falcon keeper in at least a decade, perhaps even since Dustin Shambaugh, who single-handedly kept Williams from beating Messiah in the tournament in Williamstown back in 2006. So, while that save was hardly expected, it's part of the game the Falcons have this year.
I say this last part with some reluctance, because it could be seen as a bit of sour grapes, except for the outcome of the game. Despite the fact that the PK was called (and probably deserved, but I didn't have a completely clear line of sight), the official allowed far more hard physical play, some of it (IMO) actually dirty, on the part of Kenyon. That's one of the reasons Messiah didn't look up to par. It's one thing fairly to match or exceed the Falcons' excellence (which Kenyon did, unquestionably); it's another however to get away with serious fouling, all game long. Kenyon is bigger, man for man, than Messiah. That doesn't mean that officials need to give Falcons a break. But, it does mean that it's unfair not to call fouls that are unquestionably influencing the game and in effect favoring the bigger team. This happens often to the Falcons; it's something they just have to live with, as they did today. In my long experience as a fan, however, it gets progressively less likely in later rounds of the tournament, where the officiating is almost always a whole lot better than it was today. Some of the non-calls were ridiculous, but not funny. One of the most egregious: when the Kenyon keeper came up into the attack in the final couple of minutes, a Falcon breaking toward the empty goal was taken down from behind. Only a yellow was shown. I'm sorry, that's a straight red. It wasn't even close.
Well, more objective observers here are invited to comment on this piece of bitching.
I still think Kenyon deserved to win this one, despite the officiating. But, so did the Falcons: as Blooter said, they got it done when they had to, on both ends. Both teams IMO played better than anyone else I've seen all year--including the UAA and NESCAC games I've watched online. Not even close. This was a national finals level game that simply shouldn't have happened in the second round. Shame on someone, somewhere, for letting that happen to either of these two excellent teams.
Quote from: jknezek on November 14, 2021, 05:49:02 PM
I have to admit, I didn't expect the W&L/CNU - Messiah/Hanover sectional to be at Hanover... CNU gets to fly I'd assume at 670 miles. I can't imagine W&L or Messiah didn't put in to host, but who knows?
Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!!!!
Mistake on the part of yours truly with the spreadsheets that generate the webpages with the brackets. The mistake doesn't manifest itself until now which is why it wasn't caught sooner. The team in Hanover's place in the bracket in 2019 (Kenyon) hosted the sectional back in 2019 and that relationship wasn't cleared.
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 14, 2021, 05:46:23 PM
Tufts avoids the upset of the tournament after *13* rounds of PKs...Stevens actually had a chance to put it away at one point, but Lauta came up with a huge save to keep them in it.
Way back in 2003, after a scoreless tie with #10 Salisbury in the second round, the Falcons lost 7-6 in PKs. I've never seen one go as long as that one today. Thought Stevens actually had it won, but Lauta came up big.
Brandt swore afterwards that he'd never lose another shootout. Henceforth, one of the Falcon keepers was always schooled on how to read the shooter. So, when Stevens and Messiah went to PKs in the national final in 2008, backup keeper Nick Blossie came in for the shootout and stoned all 3 of Stevens' shooters, while his teammates made theirs for a 3-0 win. He was then named the tournament MVP, even though he never stepped onto the field until the shootout. Congratulations to Tufts for surviving.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 14, 2021, 06:13:38 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 14, 2021, 05:49:02 PM
I have to admit, I didn't expect the W&L/CNU - Messiah/Hanover sectional to be at Hanover... CNU gets to fly I'd assume at 670 miles. I can't imagine W&L or Messiah didn't put in to host, but who knows?
Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!!!!
Mistake on the part of yours truly with the spreadsheets that generate the webpages with the brackets. The mistake doesn't manifest itself until now which is why it wasn't caught sooner. The team in Hanover's place in the bracket in 2019 (Kenyon) hosted the sectional back in 2019 and that relationship wasn't cleared.
Ah. That clears it up. I wondered about that. Thanks!
The one thing I will say about Kenyon is that — while there was definitely some inspired goalkeeping — even Martinez's equalizer was a rebound of a blocked shot. The Lords had a ton of possession into the final third but their decision-making often let them down, trying to score the perfect goal instead of putting it on frame. Of course, the Messiah goalkeeper played unbelievable and perhaps that was partially responsible for them trying to walk it in rather than shoot on sight, but I felt like they could have tested him more. Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 14, 2021, 04:36:02 PM
WashU goes down to defeat, losing 3-1 to NPU. I'm sure that Mr. Sager will post a complete write-up later, but the turning point was early in the second half, as NP got two early goals followed by Nolan Wolf being sent off due to a second yellow, taking the Bears down to 10 men. Wolfie got jobbed, but NPU was the better team on the day and deserved the victory.
I think that the second yellow on Wolf could've gone either way; I could understand why the ref called it, although if I was in the middle of the pitch wearing the funny-colored shirt I probably would've kept the card in my pocket. Either way, I don't think it made a difference. As you said, NPU was the better team today. When the Vikings are on, their first touches are things of beauty -- they orient the ball with poise and purpose and set themselves up so well.
I said several times on the air today that I don't think that anybody in D3 played better soccer over the past two or three weeks than did Wash U, and I meant it. The back line of the Bears and GK Matt Martin are tremendous. Beating the Bears was a big step forward for NPU. This was likely the last game North Park will play at home this season, and the Vikings seniors walked off the ersatz grass at Hedstrand for the last time after a game with a great memory, as well as some nice momentum heading into Friday's game against typically ignored but super-tough St. Olaf.
Wash U gave up only nine goals in 17 games this year ... and five of those nine were to North Park.
The Messiah announcers actually said Kenyon wasn't that big...that Messiah matched up well size-wise as they suggested Kenyon was much bigger in 2013.
Fouls Kenyon 10 Messiah 17
Shots Kenyon 18 (8) Messiah 7 (2)
Corners Kenyon 8 Messiah 3
A red on the Kenyon GK under 2 minutes would have meant less than nothing (unless we'd gone to OT). And it wasn't violent or over-aggressive. Also don't think he was the last man back but not sure what the rule is on that.
The Messiah GK was superb...saved a header flicked in 1st half that's easy to forget that looked like would get over his head and into back of net. The save just the minute before Messiah scored the winner almost certainly saved the game for Messiah. Would love to see that again. And the header hitting the crossbar and going straight down was fortuitous for the Falcons as well. If you didn't know that was Messiah and just watched the run of play you'd think Kenyon won 3-0, 4-0, 4-1.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 05:25:14 PM
Welp...obviously gutted...but also obviously extremely proud of how Kenyon performed. You don't hear the Messiah PbP guys often say that's the best team they've seen in years and that Kenyon deserved to win. They were starting to decompensate as the game wore on as they complained about the ref who gave them a PK, but overall they held it together and gave Kenyon their due. Lords gave Messiah a PK against the run of play (when I didn't see any need, like make them score), just kept coming and coming, probably dominated possession at least 70/30, and could have had at least 3-4 goals. Don't know how that header didnit go in, and that save at the right post by Messiah GK is now maybe best save I've seen...as was very hard shot to just inside the post through traffic and not even sure how Messiah GK saw it. Anf then hitting post inside last 15 secs. Several other very close calls. Anyway, always knew it was gonna be tough to advance but really hard when your team clearly did enough. But I give Messiah credit. They hunkered down and found a way even when put in a position they almost never face even on the very rare occasions when they lose.
And the tournament rolls on. Unfortunately this game by Kenyon probably did enough to have me stick around another year! And now Messiah is gonna play Hanover!
Agree with this take minus the refereeing was at best questionable and one-sided at worst in this game. Rightful for Messiah announcers to complain. Multiple instances of Keyon going directly at the player from behind with no chance of getting the ball or coming in studs first and I believe the referee only showed two yellows (#4 and the keeper at the end). Respect to Kenyon for playing hard it definitely threw Messiah on their heels and kept them from getting any type of rhythm throughout the game. The referees at the tournament level just have to be better at game management and not just letting them "play on" because it's a tough game.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 06:27:19 PM
The one thing I will say about Kenyon is that — while there was definitely some inspired goalkeeping — even Martinez's equalizer was a rebound of a blocked shot. The Lords had a ton of possession into the final third but their decision-making often let them down, trying to score the perfect goal instead of putting it on frame. Of course, the Messiah goalkeeper played unbelievable and perhaps that was partially responsible for them trying to walk it in rather than shoot on sight, but I felt like they could have tested him more. Just my 2 cents.
Keeper the Mullet was outstanding in my book. He is so sure with the ball that I am sure the men in front of him don't worry about dropped balls etc. that you see with other keepers.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 06:33:52 PM
T
A red on the Kenyon GK under 2 minutes would have meant less than nothing (unless we'd gone to OT). And it wasn't violent or over-aggressive. Also don't think he was the last man back but not sure what the rule is on that.
The RC would've been for DOGSO. The Messiah player was looking at an open goal with the keeper behind him but defenders in front of him. It looked like an obvious goal scoring opportunity to me as the goal was open. However, I've never seen a keeper tackle a player-in-possession from behind at midfield before. That was a first for me and probably everyone who saw it, including the ref. And given how that ref was calling the game, he wasn't going to give a red for such a novel event, even if a RC was warranted.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 06:33:52 PM
A red on the Kenyon GK under 2 minutes would have meant less than nothing (unless we'd gone to OT). And it wasn't violent or over-aggressive. Also don't think he was the last man back but not sure what the rule is on that.
Well, when a Keeper comes out of the box, he is like any other player. What I saw was a "professional" foul that was deserving of a yellow. Kenyon#5 ... not too sure on the number ... was back holding since the Keeper had come up. So by the law, all he did was drag down the Messiah player, not maliciously, just with the intent of not letting him go further. By that standard, yellow card.
Quote from: thesoccerguy17 on November 14, 2021, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 05:25:14 PM
Welp...obviously gutted...but also obviously extremely proud of how Kenyon performed. You don't hear the Messiah PbP guys often say that's the best team they've seen in years and that Kenyon deserved to win. They were starting to decompensate as the game wore on as they complained about the ref who gave them a PK, but overall they held it together and gave Kenyon their due. Lords gave Messiah a PK against the run of play (when I didn't see any need, like make them score), just kept coming and coming, probably dominated possession at least 70/30, and could have had at least 3-4 goals. Don't know how that header didnit go in, and that save at the right post by Messiah GK is now maybe best save I've seen...as was very hard shot to just inside the post through traffic and not even sure how Messiah GK saw it. Anf then hitting post inside last 15 secs. Several other very close calls. Anyway, always knew it was gonna be tough to advance but really hard when your team clearly did enough. But I give Messiah credit. They hunkered down and found a way even when put in a position they almost never face even on the very rare occasions when they lose.
And the tournament rolls on. Unfortunately this game by Kenyon probably did enough to have me stick around another year! And now Messiah is gonna play Hanover!
Agree with this take minus the refereeing was at best questionable and one-sided at worst in this game. Rightful for Messiah announcers to complain. Multiple instances of Keyon going directly at the player from behind with no chance of getting the ball or coming in studs first and I believe the referee only showed two yellows (#4 and the keeper at the end). Respect to Kenyon for playing hard it definitely threw Messiah on their heels and kept them from getting any type of rhythm throughout the game. The referees at the tournament level just have to be better at game management and not just letting them "play on" because it's a tough game.
Yeah, it doesn't matter as Messiah moves on. But I'll push back just a little with you and my friend Falconer (who I actually do consider a friend here). I don't recall any Messiah players rolling around on the ground after fouls or alleged fouls or getting injured. Martinez (who was fantastic and has 3 years left) did have a reckless challenge and got appropriately carded. The ref late in 1st half had an opportunity for a make-up PK call and didn't give it. Messiah led fouls 17 to 10. I don't think Kenyon had a home court ref advantage for sure. Kenyon was aggressive and closed space hard. They would have two guys trap any Messiah player who got the ball, and as the announcers said Kenyon looked more like Messiah than Messiah because of the massive difference in possession. They also quoted friends of the Messiah program calling/texting in saying they thought Messiah was playing its mirror-image. So any suggestion that Kenyon was dirty takes away from the overall picture of how Kenyon played on the field and strung together pass after pass while having a massive possession advantage.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: thesoccerguy17 on November 14, 2021, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 05:25:14 PM
Welp...obviously gutted...but also obviously extremely proud of how Kenyon performed. You don't hear the Messiah PbP guys often say that's the best team they've seen in years and that Kenyon deserved to win. They were starting to decompensate as the game wore on as they complained about the ref who gave them a PK, but overall they held it together and gave Kenyon their due. Lords gave Messiah a PK against the run of play (when I didn't see any need, like make them score), just kept coming and coming, probably dominated possession at least 70/30, and could have had at least 3-4 goals. Don't know how that header didnit go in, and that save at the right post by Messiah GK is now maybe best save I've seen...as was very hard shot to just inside the post through traffic and not even sure how Messiah GK saw it. Anf then hitting post inside last 15 secs. Several other very close calls. Anyway, always knew it was gonna be tough to advance but really hard when your team clearly did enough. But I give Messiah credit. They hunkered down and found a way even when put in a position they almost never face even on the very rare occasions when they lose.
And the tournament rolls on. Unfortunately this game by Kenyon probably did enough to have me stick around another year! And now Messiah is gonna play Hanover!
Agree with this take minus the refereeing was at best questionable and one-sided at worst in this game. Rightful for Messiah announcers to complain. Multiple instances of Keyon going directly at the player from behind with no chance of getting the ball or coming in studs first and I believe the referee only showed two yellows (#4 and the keeper at the end). Respect to Kenyon for playing hard it definitely threw Messiah on their heels and kept them from getting any type of rhythm throughout the game. The referees at the tournament level just have to be better at game management and not just letting them "play on" because it's a tough game.
Yeah, it doesn't matter as Messiah moves on. But I'll push back just a little with you and my friend Falconer (who I actually do consider a friend here). I don't recall any Messiah players rolling around on the ground after fouls or alleged fouls or getting injured. Martinez (who was fantastic and has 3 years left) did have a reckless challenge and got appropriately carded. The ref late in 1st half had an opportunity for a make-up PK call and didn't give it. Messiah led fouls 17 to 10. I don't think Kenyon had a home court ref advantage for sure. Kenyon was aggressive and closed space hard. They would have two guys trap any Messiah player who got the ball, and as the announcers said Kenyon looked more like Messiah than Messiah because of the massive difference in possession. They also quoted friends of the Messiah program calling/texting in saying they thought Messiah was playing its mirror-image. So any suggestion that Kenyon was dirty takes away from the overall picture of how Kenyon played on the field and strung together pass after pass while having a massive possession advantage.
"Make up call" - are you saying the PK wasn't an obvious foul? And that refs engage in makeup calls for PK's? If they do, they're terrible refs.
One of the reasons Kenyon lost 2-1 is because one of their players made a huge mental mistake in the box and gave away a needless PK by fouling a guy in possession with his back to goal. It's on him for his indiscipline. You're right, Messiah didn't earn that goal; Kenyon gifted to them, not the ref.
The Messiah announcers expressed concern about whether a play in the Messiah box would trigger a make-up call. Poor wording, perhaps, because they certainly agreed with the actual PK call. And yes, Kenyon gifted that to Messiah well against the run of play and with no real need that I could see. I would love to see it again, because I couldn't tell exactly what happened, but I never said or meant to imply that it was not a deserved PK.
There was a mention of Messiah possibly getting LG back at some point. They need him...not for Hanover, but maybe for the Elite 8 and certainly for the Final 4.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 06:46:44 PM
The RC would've been for DOGSO ... but defenders in front of him.
By definition, DOGSO would not have defenders in front of him. You take into account, the number of Defenders, Distance to the goal, Distance to the ball, and Direction of the play.... also known as the 4D's
There was maybe 1 or two defenders behind the ball. Think one may have been tracking another player, but nonetheless.
Keep in mind that the foul occurred within Messiah's half. Where DOGSO is committed matters as well. If everyone was where they were but 25 yards out, then I think a case for a red would be legit. So think this fails the distance test.
The man was on the dribble, and he may have been trying to pass the ball. Or it could have been the result of the foul. Going by memory now.
And finally, yes it was going "toward goal" but as I mentioned ... distance.
By the Law, if anyone one of those is in question, there can be no red card. Think the first two Ds would fill me with enough doubt.
Anyone else hearing the banshee on the Cortland-Kean stream
Congrats to Washington College....great story!
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 06:46:44 PM
The RC would've been for DOGSO ... but defenders in front of him.
By definition, DOGSO would not have defenders in front of him. You take into account, the number of Defenders, Distance to the goal, Distance to the ball, and Direction of the play.... also known as the 4D's
There was maybe 1 or two defenders behind the ball. Think one may have been tracking another player, but nonetheless.
Keep in mind that the foul occurred within Messiah's half. Where DOGSO is committed matters as well. If everyone was where they were but 25 yards out, then I think a case for a red would be legit. So think this fails the distance test.
The man was on the dribble, and he may have been trying to pass the ball. Or it could have been the result of the foul. Going by memory now.
And finally, yes it was going "toward goal" but as I mentioned ... distance.
By the Law, if anyone one of those is in question, there can be no red card. Think the first two Ds would fill me with enough doubt.
Yes, yes, yes but what makes this so interesting is that the 'keeper is behind the player in possession. If a player gets dragged down from behind at midfield with no defenders to beat except the 'keeper it's a RC, even though the distance is great. So what happens when you drag down a player from behind with only one defender to beat, and not even beat, just hit a decent ball on frame over his head when the 'keeper is behind you?
If you are looking for the game video. They usually leave it up for 24 hours after the game.
Highlights including Kenyon's goal
https://youtu.be/WyOWOP4r3Dg
Full game
https://gomessiah.com/watch/?Live=547&type=Live
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 07:11:14 PM
Congrats to Washington College....great story!
Watched them play my Saints yesterday man.
They are absolutely a legit team.
If they score first, no team in the country will beat them in my opinion.
They beat a Montclair St. team in their own home today. A Montclair team that was absolutely a threat to make a run at it.
I think Washington is making their first or second NCAA appearance this year and just dropped a "Dos a Cero" on two traditional dancing teams over the weekend.
These boys deserve praise, but I'm sure they would tell you dont want it...not yet anyway.
Washington College is legit and remind me a bit of the first Tufts run back in 2014. Super solid defensively and plenty of dangerous guys up front. Tufts are gonna need to play better than they did this weekend if they are going to advance to the elite 8.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 06:46:44 PM
The RC would've been for DOGSO ... but defenders in front of him.
By definition, DOGSO would not have defenders in front of him. You take into account, the number of Defenders, Distance to the goal, Distance to the ball, and Direction of the play.... also known as the 4D's
There was maybe 1 or two defenders behind the ball. Think one may have been tracking another player, but nonetheless.
Keep in mind that the foul occurred within Messiah's half. Where DOGSO is committed matters as well. If everyone was where they were but 25 yards out, then I think a case for a red would be legit. So think this fails the distance test.
The man was on the dribble, and he may have been trying to pass the ball. Or it could have been the result of the foul. Going by memory now.
And finally, yes it was going "toward goal" but as I mentioned ... distance.
By the Law, if anyone one of those is in question, there can be no red card. Think the first two Ds would fill me with enough doubt.
Yes, yes, yes but what makes this so interesting is that the 'keeper is behind the player in possession. If a player gets dragged down from behind at midfield with no defenders to beat except the 'keeper it's a RC, even though the distance is great. So what happens when you drag down a player from behind with only one defender to beat, and not even beat, just hit a decent ball on frame over his head when the 'keeper is behind you?
The focus on the Kenyon GK is such a distraction. There was no indication the player was getting ready to shoot for goal unless you can read his mind. There may have been two defenders back as well with either one having a chance to track a long ball attempt at goal. The game was over (except for one more shot off the post lol). The kid actually made a very smart play and gave Kenyon that last chance at the end. Kenyon lost in part by not being up 2-1 or 3-1 and then Messiah likely doesn't get that chance in the 84th or 85th minute. On the video I see that #21 put the pass thru his defender's legs and Hosmer-Quint unfortunately got caught 2 steps behind the goal scorer. Initially looked like they had enough men back to cover that play. Great pass and finish. And as I see the save on Carson again still great but not quite as great as I thought. And Carson could have made that easier going inside the near post in hindsight. I bet Hosmer-Quint wishes he had that header that hit under the crossbar again too.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2021, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 14, 2021, 06:46:44 PM
The RC would've been for DOGSO ... but defenders in front of him.
By definition, DOGSO would not have defenders in front of him. You take into account, the number of Defenders, Distance to the goal, Distance to the ball, and Direction of the play.... also known as the 4D's
There was maybe 1 or two defenders behind the ball. Think one may have been tracking another player, but nonetheless.
Keep in mind that the foul occurred within Messiah's half. Where DOGSO is committed matters as well. If everyone was where they were but 25 yards out, then I think a case for a red would be legit. So think this fails the distance test.
The man was on the dribble, and he may have been trying to pass the ball. Or it could have been the result of the foul. Going by memory now.
And finally, yes it was going "toward goal" but as I mentioned ... distance.
By the Law, if anyone one of those is in question, there can be no red card. Think the first two Ds would fill me with enough doubt.
Yes, yes, yes but what makes this so interesting is that the 'keeper is behind the player in possession. If a player gets dragged down from behind at midfield with no defenders to beat except the 'keeper it's a RC, even though the distance is great. So what happens when you drag down a player from behind with only one defender to beat, and not even beat, just hit a decent ball on frame over his head when the 'keeper is behind you?
Even if this happened in Kenyon's half, there were about 3 defenders within close proximity to the ball.
I do not understand why the ref stopped the clock. In that situation, you don't award the losing team the benefit of time. You simply keep it running (at your discretion) under 5 min mark.
Note: Unfortunately, I didn't get to officiate any tournament games this season due to injury, but was on the 2019 Elite 8 match crew; Tufts v Conn...
I've been traveling most of the day, but was able to tune into to see the kickoff for JCU-JHU... I haven't scrolled back, but if folks weren't aware, game was played in the snow.
2-1 to JCU. Bummer, but really not a lot to complain or take from a game that resembled US-CRC back in the day.
Quote from: Falconer on November 14, 2021, 06:21:50 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 14, 2021, 05:46:23 PM
Tufts avoids the upset of the tournament after *13* rounds of PKs...Stevens actually had a chance to put it away at one point, but Lauta came up with a huge save to keep them in it.
Way back in 2003, after a scoreless tie with #10 Salisbury in the second round, the Falcons lost 7-6 in PKs. I've never seen one go as long as that one today. Thought Stevens actually had it won, but Lauta came up big.
Brandt swore afterwards that he'd never lose another shootout. Henceforth, one of the Falcon keepers was always schooled on how to read the shooter. So, when Stevens and Messiah went to PKs in the national final in 2008, backup keeper Nick Blossie came in for the shootout and stoned all 3 of Stevens' shooters, while his teammates made theirs for a 3-0 win. He was then named the tournament MVP, even though he never stepped onto the field until the shootout. Congratulations to Tufts for surviving.
2007 I believe was the year. round of 32 after a first round bye medaille lost in the 20th shooter to Nazareth
Quote from: stlawus on November 14, 2021, 07:06:35 PM
Anyone else hearing the banshee on the Cortland-Kean stream
(https://alqurumresort.com/img/nails-on-a-chalkboard-gif-3.gif)
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 14, 2021, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 07:11:14 PM
Congrats to Washington College....great story!
Watched them play my Saints yesterday man.
They are absolutely a legit team.
If they score first, no team in the country will beat them in my opinion.
They beat a Montclair St. team in their own home today. A Montclair team that was absolutely a threat to make a run at it.
I think Washington is making their first or second NCAA appearance this year and just dropped a "Dos a Cero" on two traditional dancing teams over the weekend.
These boys deserve praise, but I'm sure they would tell you dont want it...not yet anyway.
This is the first-ever appearance in the tourney for the Shoremen.
Quote from: Falconer on November 14, 2021, 06:21:50 PM
Quote from: ConnAlum on November 14, 2021, 05:46:23 PM
Tufts avoids the upset of the tournament after *13* rounds of PKs...Stevens actually had a chance to put it away at one point, but Lauta came up with a huge save to keep them in it.
Way back in 2003, after a scoreless tie with #10 Salisbury in the second round, the Falcons lost 7-6 in PKs. I've never seen one go as long as that one today.
I watched this game a few years ago: https://ivyleague.com/news/2018/11/15/mens-soccer-princetons-falls-to-michigan-in-penalty-kick-shootout.aspx. Fourteen rounds. It was something else.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 14, 2021, 07:50:09 PM
I've been traveling most of the day, but was able to tune into to see the kickoff for JCU-JHU... I haven't scrolled back, but if folks weren't aware, game was played in the snow.
So were some of the other games, including Chicago @ Otterbein. Kean @ Cortland was played in a constant flurry, and the pitch at Cortland was a giant Slip 'N Slide.
Congrats to Chicago. Tough conditions against a strong, defensively stout team. Impressive win.
And congrats to JCU...also in tough conditions. I was gonna say the only Great Lakes team still standing...but not true. There's Hanover. Would have nevef picked Hanover over Emory.
Anyway, I like JCU but I'm kind of behind Middlebury all the way.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
Yeah, it doesn't matter as Messiah moves on. But I'll push back just a little with you and my friend Falconer (who I actually do consider a friend here). I don't recall any Messiah players rolling around on the ground after fouls or alleged fouls or getting injured. Martinez (who was fantastic and has 3 years left) did have a reckless challenge and got appropriately carded. The ref late in 1st half had an opportunity for a make-up PK call and didn't give it. Messiah led fouls 17 to 10. I don't think Kenyon had a home court ref advantage for sure. Kenyon was aggressive and closed space hard. They would have two guys trap any Messiah player who got the ball, and as the announcers said Kenyon looked more like Messiah than Messiah because of the massive difference in possession. They also quoted friends of the Messiah program calling/texting in saying they thought Messiah was playing its mirror-image. So any suggestion that Kenyon was dirty takes away from the overall picture of how Kenyon played on the field and strung together pass after pass while having a massive possession advantage.
The foul count is an official number that is what it is.
My beef is, that very hard fouls against the Falcons just weren't called at all--a lot of them, surely more than the 7 count difference in the official statistic. Those fouls resulted in Falcons being dispossessed, often in places where dangerous passes could have been made. And, they set the tone: if a Falcon runs past you, just pull his shirt to slow him down and throw him off balance. Those don't count as hard fouls, but it happened all over the field, all the time, and was a major reason why the Falcons didn't look very good in comparison with Kenyon. That part of the game was not a mirror image: the shirt-pulling and hard, uncalled fouls were pretty one-sided. Yes, there were some hard fouls by the Falcons, but most of them were called. And, as in most games, 2 or 3 of the fouls given to the Falcons weren't fouls, or were actually Kenyon fouls. As I said, the officiating was sub-par for a tournament game.
I've had my say on this. PN and Falconer are indeed on good terms--we sometime email one another about personal stuff more than soccer. I feel his pain right now. Grantham has twice been unkind to his Kenyon men, and at least on this occasion Kenyon merited a victory as much as the Falcons. It's more neutral voices I'm interested in hearing from. Was this game poorly officiated, in a manner that hurt Messiah more than Kenyon? Or, am I just being a true Falconer at heart. :-X
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 07:04:40 PM
There was a mention of Messiah possibly getting LG back at some point. They need him...not for Hanover, but maybe for the Elite 8 and certainly for the Final 4.
I gather that information about Luke Groothoff came from the announcers? I mentioned his injury several days after it happened, and said he was probably gone for the season, but I don't think I said or implied that he could possibly be back for any part of the tournament. If this was stated by the announcers, then believe it: I have always found them very well informed. I knew of that possibility from an unimpeachable source; but, I didn't feel free to share it. Of course, I have been hoping it would happen. LG is IMO the best CM in the region, perhaps the best anywhere. Absolutely he's the quickest and most highly skilled Falcon and the heart and soul of the offense. He also has the ability to dispossess anyone in his vicinity--an ability that helped him earn AA as a CB in his rookie season, despite him being vertically challenged though he might be the best leaper on the team. LG's absence was enormous in the Kenyon game. With him there, the imbalance in time of possession would surely not have been nearly as large. If by some good fortune he does return, he probably would not play his usual minutes, since the injury involved one of his legs and I doubt he's able yet to run even lightly.
As I say, let's hope he returns--and gets to play safely and effectively in the Final Four.
On another matter, the Falcon keeper usually punted on goal kicks today. That's unusual. Almost always, the Falcons build from the back, slowly and deliberately, but today they often didn't even try, right out of the gate. I assume this was a deliberate tactic, showing respect to the very fast and aggressive forwards from Kenyon who were way up top. Was anything said about this on the PBP? Most people on this board know far more about soccer than me. Is this what was happening? Or, would it be motivated by something else? Just wondering. As I said, you don't usually see this.
Some things have to be answered. Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty. Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game. That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords). The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time). Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0. They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked. They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed. Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field? At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.
Quote from: Falconer on November 14, 2021, 09:13:41 PM
On another matter, the Falcon keeper usually punted on goal kicks today. That's unusual. Almost always, the Falcons build from the back, slowly and deliberately, but today they often didn't even try, right out of the gate. I assume this was a deliberate tactic, showing respect to the very fast and aggressive forwards from Kenyon who were way up top. Was anything said about this on the PBP? Most people on this board know far more about soccer than me. Is this what was happening? Or, would it be motivated by something else? Just wondering. As I said, you don't usually see this.
Yes, the announcers said Kenyon was making them play the way teams play against Messiah just to hang in the game....they also started just clearing a lot of balls long. The announcers commented multiple times that Messiah couldn't get out of its own half. They had two chances the whole game and scored on both.
And yes, the announcers vaguely suggested that LG might return but not prediction on when.
Since no one has posted it yet . . .
The Sectional hosts are Tufts, Washington & Lee, Chicago and Amherst.
Has this been confirmed
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 14, 2021, 10:22:06 PM
Since no one has posted it yet . . .
Has this been confirmed or are those just the highest seeds? I remember when I was playing not finding out until Monday morning where the next rounds of games would be.
This is confirmed. Chicago pod will be Fri/Sat due to Calvin. All others Sat/Sun
Yep. I can further confirm that NPU vs. St. Olaf will be the early game (1 pm Central) on Friday, and Calvin @ Chicago will be the late game.
Did anyone see Redlands this weekend? Seems they have some goal scorers but can they commit to defending? The usual problem for these West teams coming East is they are not as committed defensively as the teams in the East and Midwest.
I love this boxscore. Check out the 2nd page with the % of time in each zone. I have not seen that yet in D3.
https://redlands.prestosports.com/sports/msoc/2021-22/files/21msoc-PLU-ncaa-boxscore.pdf
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 09:18:59 PM
Some things have to be answered. Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty. Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game. That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords). The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time). Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0. They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked. They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed. Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field? At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.
@Paul Newman. Kenyon clearly deserved the game. Soccer wise they were much better than Messiah on the day. Ultimately soccer is a game of goals, and they came up short on that.
I will say having watched the whole game, I didn't think Kenyon was fouling or getting away with rough tackles. I thought it was a hard fought game and if Messiah was complaining I think it more a case that they are 1. not used to be challenged in a game, and 2. were just real uncomfortable getting into a physical battle like the one Kenyon was giving them. Like I said, on the other side of the ball, Kenyon gave a bit of a masterclass and all Messiah could do was chase.
How is Amherst's field this time of the year? I think I remember some posts the last couple years that it isn't great but I can't remember.
Quote from: oacalum on November 15, 2021, 08:37:04 AM
How is Amherst's field this time of the year? I think I remember some posts the last couple years that it isn't great but I can't remember.
Yes, I'm curious about this as well. And in the pics I've seen I don't see any stands... hopefully that's not the case?
No stands and the field will be below average at best, downright bad if any inclement weather strikes.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 15, 2021, 06:31:44 AM
Did anyone see Redlands this weekend? Seems they have some goal scorers but can they commit to defending? The usual problem for these West teams coming East is they are not as committed defensively as the teams in the East and Midwest.
I love this boxscore. Check out the 2nd page with the % of time in each zone. I have not seen that yet in D3.
https://redlands.prestosports.com/sports/msoc/2021-22/files/21msoc-PLU-ncaa-boxscore.pdf
Saw a little of the game against Lutheran and my main take away was how bad Lutheran was. Honestly made it hard to assess Redlands when their goals were coming off of defensive errors. Credit for punishing those mistakes and taking their chances. I think Conn is going to romp to an easy win similar to when Trinity (tx) flew out to Tufts to get stomped by kenyon.
No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 15, 2021, 09:33:27 AM
No stands and the field will be below average at best, downright bad if any inclement weather strikes.
Perfect for hosting a weekend of soccer in November then. ::) Thanks for the heads-up.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 15, 2021, 07:10:11 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 09:18:59 PM
Some things have to be answered. Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty. Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game. That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords). The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time). Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0. They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked. They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed. Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field? At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.
@Paul Newman. Kenyon clearly deserved the game. Soccer wise they were much better than Messiah on the day. Ultimately soccer is a game of goals, and they came up short on that.
I will say having watched the whole game, I didn't think Kenyon was fouling or getting away with rough tackles. I thought it was a hard fought game and if Messiah was complaining I think it more a case that they are 1. not used to be challenged in a game, and 2. were just real uncomfortable getting into a physical battle like the one Kenyon was giving them. Like I said, on the other side of the ball, Kenyon gave a bit of a masterclass and all Messiah could do was chase.
@SimpleCoach, much appreciated. Mixed feelings last night and today...clearly miserable that Kenyon didn't prevail but also thrilled with and incredibly proud of how they played. We can quibble about their finishing but overall just a stellar performance on a big stage.
Your take on Kenyon evolved over the season from pretty good but unsure if in the national mix, to seeing them outplay OWU, to yesterday when you posted your notes or at least wrote them I presume
before you saw any comments here. I would encourage anyone interested to read your notes. You have praised Messiah and their superior style of play since Day 1, so I don't think any inherent bias from you can be presumed.
Kenyon lost fair and square despite significantly outplaying Messiah. A bitter pill to swallow but one that has to be swallowed. The Lords didn't get robbed or jobbed or anything. A PK where a foul looked unnecessary and a single shot on goal in 90 minutes. Hard pill to swallow but reality. Given that Kenyon is yet again on the outside looking in perhaps the coaching staff needs to consider what else they can do differently going forward.
The pill I'm not going to swallow is the other ridiculous nonsense that got expressed yesterday. If I wanted to be petty I could argue that Messiah especially at home starts games like this on 1st or 2nd base because of the Messiah mystique and substantial home advantage and support. But, just like Tufts, they've earned that mystique over the years, and the corresponding arrogance of they are never supposed to lose ever is also very well-earned. That said, the panic and excuses, even in a win, are an insult not just to the opponent but also to the hard-earned greatness of the Messiah program. Just offensive...especially in the immediate aftermath of being extremely fortunate to move on.
I would give Messiah a very slight edge over W&L (who I don't know well) or CNU, but if the Falcons get through and if Tufts is sitting there, I think it is highly unlikely that Messiah can beat Tufts who is a significantly bigger, more physical, and probably overall more talented version of Kenyon. Not sure they'd beat Conn College either and there are several teams on the other side of the bracket who can play the Falcons straight up as well (although those will whittle themselves down to one obviously).
With for sure a slight bias towards Messiah, I would let on to say that the best 4 teams still in it are Amherst, Conn, Tufts, and Messiah. However, I have not been able to watch much of U Chicago or Cortland who have been historically very talented. Obviously based upon the pods, not all of those teams can make it to the Final 4. My Final 4 prediction would probably go Tufts vs. Messiah (been waiting for this), and Amherst vs. U Chicago. Although I would not be too surprised if Conn or Cortland were able to make their way into the Final 4.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2021, 09:44:13 PM
Swat of course might not get by Stevens, but if so would be two Shin brothers going against each other.
And how did the Centennial get 5 teams? Is the Centennial the new NESCAC or UAA? NESCAC couldn't even get 5.
Btw, CSO, congrats on Midd getting in. Feel really bad for Wesleyan but both were deserving especially that too many from conference isn't capped.
PN - You asked initially how did Centennial get 5 teams and whether it's the new NESCAC or UAA. I think the results from the first weekend confirm that your question was justified, though the Centennial is clearly not the new NESCAC. There is no league, at least this year, that can compete for league strength with NESCAC. Centennial and UAA got beat pretty handily by NESCAC teams. F&M did not look very competitive. NYU was absolutely spanked by Conn in the second half. Hadn't watch NYU play before but based on discussions here I thought they were a powerhouse. Sure didn't look like it yesterday. Conn just dominated them in the second half. They put in 3 on that supposedly tremendous GK.
As Mr. Right mentioned in the NESCAC thread, the 4 NESCAC teams are 6-0-2 while giving up one goal in the first two rounds. Only 1 of the 5 Centannial teams is left. Same on the UAA side. It's really a shame that the NESCAC didn't get the respect it deserved this year from the selection committee. I would say Wesleyan, Williams, Bowdoin and Colby all could have had a a legitimate shot at getting into the sweet 16 this year, at least based on the teams I saw compete against the NESCAC teams this weekend. F&M I thought would be strogner based on their rankings all year. NYU was ranked in the coaches' poll all year and got in with a 10-5-1 record.
I know each year there are deserving teams that are left off. Such a shame that the NESCAC got no respect this year.
Quote from: southsidejet on November 15, 2021, 09:47:05 AM
No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.
Thanks for this! I was on a flight and just caught the first 20 minutes before boarding. Pk call seemed... about right? I dunno, the conditions were so gnarly at that point, it looked like the JCU defender slide about 3 yards and took out the Hopkins player... Even unintentionally, it still took out a player in the box. But it was a very strange play. Hopkins trying to play their possession in the first half all the way at their PK spot was pretty crazy. Just lump it up the field, man. Classic Hopkins, man. Middle of a snowstorm and you're trying to push the ball 10 yards at a time.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 10:19:55 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 15, 2021, 07:10:11 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2021, 09:18:59 PM
Some things have to be answered. Since I've been following Kenyon soccer in 2011 there's only been two times I've heard allegations of Kenyon being dirty or borderline-dirty. Both times during and after Messiah games and both times when Messiah folks were freaking about the game. That doesn't mean it's not true or that it might even be well known, but would have thought we'd catch a whiff of this from OWU, Denison, or even Tufts fans (none of whom have any love for the Lords). The announcers this time rebounded better than last time (as was reported to me at the time). Now, yes, they did make complaints today....BUT, they also said, BEFORE the Lords dominated the second half even more than the first, that it felt like Kenyon was up 2-0 rather than being down 1-0. They talked about being in a state of panic and fans watching being panicked. They said multiple times that Kenyon had dominated and deserved to win, and they repeatedly commented about Kenyon's possession, pinpoint passing both long and short, and team speed that equaled or exceeded Messiah's speed. Was Kenyon fouling when Messiah was chasing them all over the field? At the end, and these are legit Messiah folks, the announcers were almost apologizing for Messiah winning and admitting that on the day Kenyon was the superior team.
@Paul Newman. Kenyon clearly deserved the game. Soccer wise they were much better than Messiah on the day. Ultimately soccer is a game of goals, and they came up short on that.
I will say having watched the whole game, I didn't think Kenyon was fouling or getting away with rough tackles. I thought it was a hard fought game and if Messiah was complaining I think it more a case that they are 1. not used to be challenged in a game, and 2. were just real uncomfortable getting into a physical battle like the one Kenyon was giving them. Like I said, on the other side of the ball, Kenyon gave a bit of a masterclass and all Messiah could do was chase.
@SimpleCoach, much appreciated. Mixed feelings last night and today...clearly miserable that Kenyon didn't prevail but also thrilled with and incredibly proud of how they played. We can quibble about their finishing but overall just a stellar performance on a big stage.
Your take on Kenyon evolved over the season from pretty good but unsure if in the national mix, to seeing them outplay OWU, to yesterday when you posted your notes or at least wrote them I presume before you saw any comments here. I would encourage anyone interested to read your notes. You have praised Messiah and their superior style of play since Day 1, so I don't think any inherent bias from you can be presumed.
Kenyon lost fair and square despite significantly outplaying Messiah. A bitter pill to swallow but one that has to be swallowed. The Lords didn't get robbed or jobbed or anything. A PK where a foul looked unnecessary and a single shot on goal in 90 minutes. Hard pill to swallow but reality. Given that Kenyon is yet again on the outside looking in perhaps the coaching staff needs to consider what else they can do differently going forward.
The pill I'm not going to swallow is the other ridiculous nonsense that got expressed yesterday. If I wanted to be petty I could argue that Messiah especially at home starts games like this on 1st or 2nd base because of the Messiah mystique and substantial home advantage and support. But, just like Tufts, they've earned that mystique over the years, and the corresponding arrogance of they are never supposed to lose ever is also very well-earned. That said, the panic and excuses, even in a win, are an insult not just to the opponent but also to the hard-earned greatness of the Messiah program. Just offensive...especially in the immediate aftermath of being extremely fortunate to move on.
I would give Messiah a very slight edge over W&L (who I don't know well) or CNU, but if the Falcons get through and if Tufts is sitting there, I think it is highly unlikely that Messiah can beat Tufts who is a significantly bigger, more physical, and probably overall more talented version of Kenyon. Not sure they'd beat Conn College either and there are several teams on the other side of the bracket who can play the Falcons straight up as well (although those will whittle themselves down to one obviously).
I would just point out that it is rare to see a messiah player complain about a non call. Throwing up hands or asking the ref why no call. Announcers and posters on message boards do not speak for the players and coaches on the team. Fouls occur with no call in many games. Refs are not perfect.
The tough calls to take are PK calls that could have been non calls, or vice versa. I don't think that happened in the game yesterday. Messiah couple years ago had PK against them playing RPI at Amherst. Fair call and it ultimately led to OT loss. Game they should have won. Yesterday similar fate for Kenyon. Some luck is required to make it through the gauntlet to the finals. Look at teams like Calvin and Chicago who have had great teams recently but can't quite get that championship.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 15, 2021, 10:45:01 AM
Quote from: southsidejet on November 15, 2021, 09:47:05 AM
No details about the JCU-JHopkins game so I'll add a little color since I attended. Lots of snow, especially early on. Field conditions were bad in the beginning but much better in the second half as the field staff took an extended halftime to clear them off pretty good. A few chances by both sides early, then a borderline pk call (I've seen it several times and still not totally convinced) gave JH the lead on a rebound score. JCU had a bunch of late first half chances as they pressed, but couldn't equalize. A couple of really nice saves by the JH keeper! In the second half, JCU gradually took control of the game and the momentum shifted for good. 2 goals within 5 minutes of each other midway through the half sealed the deal. Somewhat physical game, especially once the players realized the ref was not going to call much. Also a long game... original kickoff time was supposed to be 3:30 but due to the snow and field conditions (delayed start, delayed half) it didn't end until almost 6:30.
Thanks for this! I was on a flight and just caught the first 20 minutes before boarding. Pk call seemed... about right? I dunno, the conditions were so gnarly at that point, it looked like the JCU defender slide about 3 yards and took out the Hopkins player... Even unintentionally, it still took out a player in the box. But it was a very strange play. Hopkins trying to play their possession in the first half all the way at their PK spot was pretty crazy. Just lump it up the field, man. Classic Hopkins, man. Middle of a snowstorm and you're trying to push the ball 10 yards at a time.
Yeah I agree. Those of us watching were somewhat shocked they continued to build from the back in those conditions, even under pressure. I mean, one little slip back there...
The risk/reward ratio is off the charts in the direction of "don't do that" in that situation. Very surprised it didn't (apparently) bite them. Anyways, I always root for the team that knocks out me team so, Go *checks JCU website* Blue Streaks? Ok. Go Blue Streaks!!
rudy, hello again and if iirc you may have a history as both a Messiah and Kenyon parent.
I have no interest in pushing this little debate further, but you're making an observation and implying/selling that means something particular. If Messiah players were engaging in rare behaviors for them that could be for any number of reasons. It's also very rare for Messiah to be in the position they were in. They were in a panic and had no answers. That's when human beings including players start looking externally. Kenyon players were throwing their hands up as well on non calls. Messiah's own PbP guys estimated the Kenyon possession advantage at 70% or more so I presume the non calls for Messiah weren't during that time. Messiah's best spell of possession was for about 10-15 minutes after the 1st goal when the goal gave them a little breathing room and Kenyon was stunned for a bit to be down against the run of play. And Messiah had very little possession at all for the entire 2nd half during which Messiah's own coach acknowledged that Kenyon had been the better team.
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
Btw, for any Kenyon fans out there, don't take this as a for sure thing, but I'm hearing that Kenyon is only losing CB Hosmer-Quint (who was outstanding) and that several of the players like Muther, Upton, etc listed as seniors preserved a year of eligibility. I maybe didn't recall this perfectly, but I think the Messiah announcers said Muther was the best right back they had seen in at least several years.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:33:36 AM
rudy, hello again and if iirc you may have a history as both a Messiah and Kenyon parent.
I have no interest in pushing this little debate further, but you're making an observation and implying/selling that means something particular. If Messiah players were engaging in rare behaviors for them that could be for any number of reasons. It's also very rare for Messiah to be in the position they were in. They were in a panic and had no answers. That's when human beings including players start looking externally. Kenyon players were throwing their hands up as well on non calls. Messiah's own PbP guys estimated the Kenyon possession advantage at 70% or more so I presume the non calls for Messiah weren't during that time. Messiah's best spell of possession was for about 10-15 minutes after the 1st goal when the goal gave them a little breathing room and Kenyon was stunned for a bit to be down against the run of play. And Messiah had very little possession at all for the entire 2nd half during which Messiah's own coach acknowledged that Kenyon had been the better team.
Hi Paul
I did not see Messiah players arguing no calls was my point. Not trying to debate whether Kenyon fouled more or harder or not. Just saying that from what I could see on video they weren't complaining. I never said anything about Kenyon playing dirty. And yes, I had a daughter at Kenyon ..played soccer a couple years. And I had daughter play at Tufts. So I have influences from several tournament teams...ha
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
Yeah, to be fair, NESCAC got five bids in 2017 and Middlebury, Bowdoin, and Conn. all got bounced in the first round games, whereas Amherst and Tufts made it to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8, respectively (and three of the four advancements with Tufts receiving a bye were shootouts). Obviously the NESCAC has advanced to the Final 4 every year since 2010 barring that year, but no conference is immune to underperforming in such a randomness-prone environment as knockout tournaments are.
Quote from: rudy on November 15, 2021, 11:51:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:33:36 AM
rudy, hello again and if iirc you may have a history as both a Messiah and Kenyon parent.
I have no interest in pushing this little debate further, but you're making an observation and implying/selling that means something particular. If Messiah players were engaging in rare behaviors for them that could be for any number of reasons. It's also very rare for Messiah to be in the position they were in. They were in a panic and had no answers. That's when human beings including players start looking externally. Kenyon players were throwing their hands up as well on non calls. Messiah's own PbP guys estimated the Kenyon possession advantage at 70% or more so I presume the non calls for Messiah weren't during that time. Messiah's best spell of possession was for about 10-15 minutes after the 1st goal when the goal gave them a little breathing room and Kenyon was stunned for a bit to be down against the run of play. And Messiah had very little possession at all for the entire 2nd half during which Messiah's own coach acknowledged that Kenyon had been the better team.
Hi Paul
I did not see Messiah players arguing no calls was my point. Not trying to debate whether Kenyon fouled more or harder or not. Just saying that from what I could see on video they weren't complaining. I never said anything about Kenyon playing dirty. And yes, I had a daughter at Kenyon ..played soccer a couple years. And I had daughter play at Tufts. So I have influences from several tournament teams...ha
OK, sorry, fair enough. I don't recall seeing any players except for maybe Burns for Kenyon get a knock or get injured...certainly didn't see Messiah players writhing on the ground or grabbing their ankles after fouls or non calls. I do recall Kenyon going for some slide tackles where they missed both ball and player completely.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
I didn't mean to say that they got no respect, just insufficient respect. Each of the 4 teams that got in deserved to be there by a good margin. Can't say the same for a team like NYU, for instance, who lost 4 of their final 6 regular season games with the last one being to 6-7-3 Brandeis (who lost 4-0 to Tufts). I guess I just can't shake my bitterness. It will take some time to heal . . .
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 15, 2021, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
I didn't mean to say that they got no respect, just insufficient respect. Each of the 4 teams that got in deserved to be there by a good margin. Can't say the same for a team like NYU, for instance, who lost 4 of their final 6 regular season games with the last one being to 6-7-3 Brandeis (who lost 4-0 to Tufts). I guess I just can't shake my bitterness. It will take some time to heal . . .
LMAO....will take time to heal.. Ummm, no, it won't. One never heals.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 12:15:33 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 15, 2021, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
I didn't mean to say that they got no respect, just insufficient respect. Each of the 4 teams that got in deserved to be there by a good margin. Can't say the same for a team like NYU, for instance, who lost 4 of their final 6 regular season games with the last one being to 6-7-3 Brandeis (who lost 4-0 to Tufts). I guess I just can't shake my bitterness. It will take some time to heal . . .
LMAO....will take time to heal.. Ummm, no, it won't. One never heals.
So sad. 😥
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 10:19:55 AM
Your take on Kenyon evolved over the season from pretty good but unsure if in the national mix, to seeing them outplay OWU, to yesterday when you posted your notes or at least wrote them I presume before you saw any comments here. I would encourage anyone interested to read your notes. You have praised Messiah and their superior style of play since Day 1, so I don't think any inherent bias from you can be presumed.
@Paul Newman thanks for the kind words as always. Just to clarify, I had no idea about the discussions that were taking place until after I watched and posted my notes. I was watching real time. And thanks for the bias comment. Try very hard to not get caught up in my personal preference v what I am watching. You made my day/season.
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
I believe 2009 was the last year that Amherst was not in the Sweet 16. 11 straight years
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
Calvin currently has the 3rd longest streak of consecutive Sweet 16 appearances -- Amherst has made the Sweet 16 every year since 2010 and Tufts every year since 2014. Messiah follows closely behind Calvin with 5 straight appearances.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
On the men's side, Amherst are in their 11th straight Sweet 16 as already mentioned.
On the women's side, Messiah had a streak of 16 straight Sweet 16's snapped this year, which I believe would have to be a Division III record.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 15, 2021, 01:56:38 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
On the men's side, Amherst are in their 11th straight Sweet 16 as already mentioned.
On the women's side, Messiah had a streak of 16 straight Sweet 16's snapped this year, which I believe would have to be a Division III record.
Amherst streak is absolutely unbelievable. In such a tough game as soccer where scoring is so difficult to win 22 straight first round games in impressive. (Although I still think Serpone should evolve his style of play an field surface now that he has such a skilled group)
Quote from: BracketMaster on November 11, 2021, 03:22:46 PM
Quick reminder to anyone who is interested in participating in the bracket pool - I have set the deadline for 12pm EST tomorrow so make sure to submit your picks by then. Participation has been impressive so far, already 48 entries!
All of the picks will be visible after the deadline and I'll share some notable takeaways from the submitted brackets on here before the tournament kicks off.
The link to the bracket pool is below. As I said before, your name and email will not be visible, just your username and entry name.
https://www.runyourpool.com/join/pool_info.cfm?id=179402&p=ytcoyu
I'd almost forgotten I filled this out, as I did it with haste.
Quote from: Novacat on November 15, 2021, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 15, 2021, 01:56:38 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
On the men's side, Amherst are in their 11th straight Sweet 16 as already mentioned.
On the women's side, Messiah had a streak of 16 straight Sweet 16's snapped this year, which I believe would have to be a Division III record.
Amherst streak is absolutely unbelievable. In such a tough game as soccer where scoring is so difficult to win 22 straight first round games in impressive. (Although I still think Serpone should evolve his style of play an field surface now that he has such a skilled group)
Amherst's streak is indeed impressive, but let's put it in a little bit of context. During all of the first two rounds since 2010, they have played a total of 4 games away from home. 2010 vs Plattsburgh @ St. Lawrence and then @ St. Lawrence. 2014 vs Fitchburg St @ St. Lawrence and then @ St. Lawrence (advanced on pks). 2021 vs Rosemont and @ Babson. All of their other games have been at home. In 2012, 2015, and 2016, they had a first round bye, so they only needed to win one game at home to go to the sweet 16.
Here are all the opponents in the first two rounds over that span (hosting 9 of 11 years)
2010 Plattsburgh and @ St. Lawrence
2011 Husson and Eastern Connecticut St
2012 Dickinson
2013 Bridgewater St. and Gordon
2014 Fitchburg St. and @ St. Lawrence
2015 SUNY Morrisville
2016 Daniel Webster
2017 Salem St and Springfield
2018 Bridgewater St. and St. Joseph's (Maine)
2019 Thomas and Ithaca
2021 Rosement and @Babson
The streak is impressive, but they also benefit from frequently hosting and getting weaker opponents in opening round. Amherst is a team that benefits more than most from playing on its homefield due to its style of play.
For purposes of comparison, here is what Franklin and Marshall has faced since 2013 (hosting 6 of those 8 years)
2013 Catholic and @ Dickinson
2014 Johnson & Wales and Rochester
2015 Babson and Gordon
2016 Geneva and Washington & Lee
2017 Drew and @Lycoming
2018 Western Connecticut and Eastern
2019 Penn State Harrisburg and Montclair St.
2021 SUNY Poly and Middlebury
Not in any way to denigrate Amherst because they can only play who they are assigned to play, but I would submit that they have had substantially easier early rounds than a team like Franklin and Marshall.
This is my first time really getting engaged in the NCAA D3 soccer tourney and have a thought - it seems that since these are very regional events that some schools do have an advantage in that they play at home in the first couple rounds...and it seems the comp is also not that spread out. Is that the case?
Quote from: D3_Slack on November 15, 2021, 04:27:15 PM
This is my first time really getting engaged in the NCAA D3 soccer tourney and have a thought - it seems that since these are very regional events that some schools do have an advantage in that they play at home in the first couple rounds...and it seems the comp is also not that spread out. Is that the case?
Most of D3 exists in a couple areas, namely the NE, the northern Midwest, and the Mid-Atlantic. There are groups in other places, but the bulk of the membership stretches from Minnesota East to New England, widening South as it moves East to Virginia, which I consider the southern most state with a true concentration of DIII schools. There are smattering in NC, TN, GA, AL, groupings in TX and along the West Coast, and an oddball or two in Mississippi, Arkansas, Colorado, Nebraska, etc., but not really a concentration in any of those areas.
So when you are trying to minimize travel expenses the way DIII does, the pods congregate in those areas of high concentration. It's expensive to send 3 schools to TX when you can have 1 school from TX travel somewhere else. Since the same schools tend to be pretty good year to year, they tend to host a lot. And if you are within 600 miles of those schools... which is a pretty big radius... that's where you are going to end up. It's not always fair, especially to some of those very good schools that exist on an island like Trinity, but money is finite.
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
It's brilliant!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
Others have already pointed out the current sweet 16 streaks. There was a stretch (2004-2010) where Messiah won the title 6 out of 7 years and the year they didn't, they lost in the sectional final.
Yeah that's crazy. Tufts have won 4 of 6 but would need to win 6 of the next 7 to match Messiahs 10 of 13 run
Quote from: Gotberg on November 15, 2021, 05:56:12 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
It's brilliant!
If only it opened with chants of OLAF OLAF OLAF OLAFFFF and continued throughout...
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PMWhen trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU).
I dispute your contention that St. Olaf's schedule consisted of "average opposition." The MIAC is a pretty decent league, even with St. Thomas having been given the heave-ho, and the Oles played two tourney teams in non-con play (one of which was Chicago) plus a couple of solid (albeit inconsistent) sides in Colorado College and Luther. Given the difficulty of scheduling when you're more or less on the corner of the D3 chessboard (Canada to the north, and no D3 teams to the west until you're nearly to the Pacific), St. Olaf did alright for itself in terms of setting up a good schedule. Massey ranked the Oles' SOS 110th out of the 414 D3 teams, which is well above average.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 03:16:08 AM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PMWhen trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU).
I dispute your contention that St. Olaf's schedule consisted of "average opposition." The MIAC is a pretty decent league, even with St. Thomas having been given the heave-ho, and the Oles played two tourney teams in non-con play (one of which was Chicago) plus a couple of solid (albeit inconsistent) sides in Colorado College and Luther. Given the difficulty of scheduling when you're more or less on the corner of the D3 chessboard (Canada to the north, and no D3 teams to the west until you're nearly to the Pacific), St. Olaf did alright for itself in terms of setting up a good schedule. Massey ranked the Oles' SOS 110th out of the 414 D3 teams, which is well above average.
I hear what you're saying, Gregory, but I'll respectfully stick to my guns. Compared to the top programs, playing the top opposition, the Oles were hard to compare based upon their oppostion. Using the Massey ratings that you mentioned, Kenyon, Messiah, and Tufts (the examples of top teams that I cited), had SOS ranking of 19, 2, and 1 respectively. That's a huge difference from 101. My point is that I really like the play of St. Olaf, and hope that they look that good against great programs like NPU, and perhaps Chicago/Calvin.
BTW, nothing against NPU. I like them. My favorite thing about NPU is the PbP's authentic pronounciation of Scandinavian sirnames. Having grown up in Sweden, Cent1 approves ;D. Bonus points for anyone who can pronounce #7 Rydfjäll correctly.
I like St. Olaf so much I put them in the F4 in my bracket.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 12:45:25 PM
Amherst goes 1-0 up in the 2nd minute. Giammattei takes a shot from the top of the 18, the 'keeper dove to save, but the rebound sat right up for Derby who made no mistake. I guess if we're being super critical we could say that the 'keeper didn't get the ball far enough out of danger, but tough to tell and the shot had some decent velocity on it so I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
One thing that has not changed over the years with the Mammoths is that they'll come out in the first 10 minutes really hard to try to get a goal. When it works and they get the jump, their high press — plus the fact that the opponent then has to come out — means that they can make it very lopsided very quickly if they get an advantage. Will be curious to see how the Beavers respond.
Was at the game - I can confirm what hasn't changed over the years is that Amherst has the most annoying bench and biggest bunch of whinging players on the field in all of college soccer.
From my remote location where I've 'gone fishing' as the NBA TNT crew says, some thoughts on the rest of the tournament...Most are gut feel, and some are kind of random, and I may change my mind a couple of times before I hit 'post'...
Will the teams that just had big scares kick into a higher gear or were those a reflection of vulnerability that foreshadows an exit? I think Tufts, Messiah, and Conn are in this category. Conn should be the least vulnerable on this measure because they already answered their close call with Salem St with a convincing win over NYU. I have to add here that Coach Burk for Conn is either cool as a cucumber or getting a nice dose of Xanax or both. I watched him in the last minute of the 2nd OT with Salem St send in a PK specialist GK, sit in his chair, pull out his notebook, and I presume start scribbling down his PK line-up and notes very methodically without glancing up even once to check on the action on the field. Easy to forget that Salem St had 2 saves during the shootout and was within a kick or two of dispatching Conn from the tournament in the 1st round on their home field. And in their PK shootout, Stevens had advancing literally on a foot...one score and advance.
Big picture, I think Tufts goes into this weekend as a clear tournament favorite...two games at home and then back to the Final 4 where there should be teams that can beat them but none of which who would be favored. I don't think Amherst or Messiah have vintage teams, and both of those could fail to get there. IMO North Park is one of the most talented and dangerous teams left, but they have to get to the Final 4 first and they'll have two extremely difficult games. St Olaf is very good...maybe not quite good enough to win it all, but certainly good enough to spoil things for NP. Calvin and Chicago feels like a toss-up but is anybody really going to pick against Calvin here? They are very comfortable winning on the road, as they have proven over and over, and just did again last week. A lot will depend on matchups...I think NP could beat Calvin but maybe struggle more with Chicago, and St Olaf would have a good shot against Chicago but not have the experience to get through Calvin. That's a wide open sectional.
Messiah should be on their A game after Sunday and it's very hard to imagine Hanover advancing past the Falcons. I do think W&L can beat Messiah, especially on a slip-'n-slide pitch and because of Singleton who should put together a very solid gameplan. I don't think CNU would get by Messiah, and the problem for W&L is whether they'll get their shot against Messiah. CNU could very easily get past W&L, a team and setting the Captains have already faced. The Captains are battle tested after one of the most challenging schedules in the country. IMO they can win a shootout style match with W&L but may not be disciplined enough to win a likely lower scoring affair with Messiah.
I'm curious who NESCAC folks think would be a more dangerous Final 4 team, Amherst or Middlebury. If not for a possible outbreak by GG, I'd pick Middlebury. Of course just to get to the Elite 8 Middlebury will have to survive one of, if not the most, mature, experienced, and disciplined teams remaining in John Carroll. I wouldn't say JCU has flown under the radar like St Olaf, but I'm not sure they've garnered enough respect either. I have no idea how JCU, a turf team from Cleveland, will handle coming to New England and playing on a small, grass field, but one could think that a very strong, disciplined team should be able to hold their own with less field to cover. I have no clue what to make of Cortland St. Will Cortland make their usual polite (or impolite) exit from the Sweet 16, or is this edition better and with the moxie to go into Amherst and advance vs the Mammoths. If they do, Cortland would obviously go into Elite 8 with loads of confidence. I just have a feeling Amherst will get by Cortland one way or the other, but I'm gonna predict that Amherst will not get by Midd or JCU.
I'm half-joking but did Tufts give Conn a little too much bulletin board material with the NESCAC POY ranting? Most, including me, are picking Conn over Redlands but we really have no idea. I mean, Salem St nearly ousted Conn. We'll see. I'd give Conn far more than a puncher's chance against Tufts, like maybe 40/60 or 45/55 odds, but Conn CANNOT look past the first game. That would be an exceptional Elite 8 tilt. Absolutely love the Washington College story and would love to see the Shoremen crash the Final 4, but they're gonna get a very perked up Tufts team that should not be flat. I expect Wash Coll to show well, but can't help thinking they'll be a little overwhelmed by the Jumbos.
Hoping for Wash Coll or Conn, W&L, St Olaf, and John Carroll or Midd....
Expecting Tufts, W&L, Calvin, Middlebury...
Teams with best chance to knock out Tufts (if they can get there)...in order...North Park, Conn, Midd, W&L...
Just wanted to point out from an NCAA rules perspective that it was not necessary for Conn to sub in the pk specialist goalie before OT expired. That would be the case under FIFA rules, but NCAA rules allow any non-ejected player to participate. As far as the idea of getting him in the game to avoid putting him in cold for pks, I get it, but the substitution itself was not required by the rules. Another quirk in NCAA pk rules. FIFA has all 11 players participating, or else a reduction by the team with 11 if one team is playing with 10. NCAA rules ask a team to designate 10 kickers, one of whom may be the goalkeeper. In the Tufts-Stevens shootout, teams only went 10 deep instead of 11 before allowing repeat kickers.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 17, 2021, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 03:16:08 AM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PMWhen trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU).
I dispute your contention that St. Olaf's schedule consisted of "average opposition." The MIAC is a pretty decent league, even with St. Thomas having been given the heave-ho, and the Oles played two tourney teams in non-con play (one of which was Chicago) plus a couple of solid (albeit inconsistent) sides in Colorado College and Luther. Given the difficulty of scheduling when you're more or less on the corner of the D3 chessboard (Canada to the north, and no D3 teams to the west until you're nearly to the Pacific), St. Olaf did alright for itself in terms of setting up a good schedule. Massey ranked the Oles' SOS 110th out of the 414 D3 teams, which is well above average.
I hear what you're saying, Gregory, but I'll respectfully stick to my guns. Compared to the top programs, playing the top opposition, the Oles were hard to compare based upon their oppostion. Using the Massey ratings that you mentioned, Kenyon, Messiah, and Tufts (the examples of top teams that I cited), had SOS ranking of 19, 2, and 1 respectively. That's a huge difference from 101. My point is that I really like the play of St. Olaf, and hope that they look that good against great programs like NPU, and perhaps Chicago/Calvin.
I never disputed the fact that St. Olaf played a less demanding schedule than Kenyon, Messiah, and Tufts. Why would I? It's blindingly obvious that the Oles don't measure up to those three teams in terms of SOS.
My contention was with your specific use of the term "average opposition," because in the case of St. Olaf it's inaccurate. In the overall sweep of D3, the Oles played an above-average schedule in terms of difficulty.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 17, 2021, 09:32:03 AMBTW, nothing against NPU. I like them. My favorite thing about NPU is the PbP's authentic pronounciation of Scandinavian sirnames. Having grown up in Sweden, Cent1 approves ;D. Bonus points for anyone who can pronounce #7 Rydfjäll correctly.
Aaah, the NPU play-by-play guy is overrated. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him.
Funny thing is, many of North Park's Swedish student-athletes exasperate me by readily adopting the American pronunciation of both their given names and their surnames. The aforementioned NPU#7, William Boström-Rydfjäll, is a classic example. For all of the work that I've put into mastering the complexities of Swedish vowels, he, like many of his fellow Swedes, informs North Park's sports information department that he's happy to use the Yankified pronunciation of his name by which his North Park student peers call him. That leaves me with the dilemma of either going along with what the student wants (which is the default for broadcasters and P.A. announcers, of course), or going with what
mor och far (and especially
farmor) want to hear their boy called, since a considerable number of folks back in
hemlandet watch the Vikings, even when the game starts at 2 am local time.
(He also answers to "Billy," since for the past two seasons NPU has also had a Swede named "Willy" on the team.)
This is obviously a conflict between the famous Swedish tendency to blend in, and my own tendency as an anal-retentive broadcaster. ;)
My favorite example of this try-to-fit-in syndrome among Swedes is a term with which many soccer coaches are familiar (and which causes many American and British athletes to snicker), fartlek. It refers to the type of interval training for running -- short sprints interspersed amidst stretches of walking and jogging -- that has become a standard in soccer training as well as for distance runners, because it obviously replicates the way that soccer players move throughout a game. Fartlek is a term invented by a couple of Swedish running coaches back in the mid-20th century that literally means "speed play" in Swedish, and it has become such a commonly-used loanword in the English-speaking sports world that it's now in the
Oxford English Dictionary.So what's the word that Swedish athletes and coaches currently use to describe distance interval training?
Intervallträning. :D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
My favorite example of this try-to-fit-in syndrome among Swedes is a term with which many soccer coaches are familiar (and which causes many American and British athletes to snicker), fartlek. It refers to the type of interval training for running -- short sprints interspersed amidst stretches of walking and jogging -- that has become a standard in soccer training as well as for distance runners, because it obviously replicates the way that soccer players move throughout a game. Fartlek is a term invented by a couple of Swedish running coaches back in the mid-20th century that literally means "speed play" in Swedish, and it has become such a commonly-used loanword in the English-speaking sports world that it's now in the Oxford English Dictionary.
So what's the word that Swedish athletes and coaches currently use to describe distance interval training? Intervallträning. :D
As someone who ran in HS/college and finished my first marathon in October, this was something I didn't know. It's not directly applicable to Swedish — rather going into English and how it got that way — but
The Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson was a fascinating read. It basically explains that a number of words and phrases (and spellings) of English words are derived from errors or misunderstandings but the new use/pronunciation/etc. are persisted with, and it appears that the English translations of Swedish phrases or words are likely modified or misunderstood similarly. Still, if we're talking purely about how things are phrased in English, I like "speed play" over "interval training."
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
My favorite example of this try-to-fit-in syndrome among Swedes is a term with which many soccer coaches are familiar (and which causes many American and British athletes to snicker), fartlek. It refers to the type of interval training for running -- short sprints interspersed amidst stretches of walking and jogging -- that has become a standard in soccer training as well as for distance runners, because it obviously replicates the way that soccer players move throughout a game. Fartlek is a term invented by a couple of Swedish running coaches back in the mid-20th century that literally means "speed play" in Swedish, and it has become such a commonly-used loanword in the English-speaking sports world that it's now in the Oxford English Dictionary.
So what's the word that Swedish athletes and coaches currently use to describe distance interval training? Intervallträning. :D
As someone who ran in HS/college and finished my first marathon in October, this was something I didn't know. It's not directly applicable to Swedish — rather going into English and how it got that way — but The Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson was a fascinating read. It basically explains that a number of words and phrases (and spellings) of English words are derived from errors or misunderstandings but the new use/pronunciation/etc. are persisted with, and it appears that the English translations of Swedish phrases or words are likely modified or misunderstood similarly. Still, if we're talking purely about how things are phrased in English, I like "speed play" over "interval training."
The Mother Tongue is one of my favorite books. Bryson is a terrific writer.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:06:28 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 14, 2021, 12:45:25 PM
Amherst goes 1-0 up in the 2nd minute. Giammattei takes a shot from the top of the 18, the 'keeper dove to save, but the rebound sat right up for Derby who made no mistake. I guess if we're being super critical we could say that the 'keeper didn't get the ball far enough out of danger, but tough to tell and the shot had some decent velocity on it so I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
One thing that has not changed over the years with the Mammoths is that they'll come out in the first 10 minutes really hard to try to get a goal. When it works and they get the jump, their high press — plus the fact that the opponent then has to come out — means that they can make it very lopsided very quickly if they get an advantage. Will be curious to see how the Beavers respond.
Was at the game - I can confirm what hasn't changed over the years is that Amherst has the most annoying bench and biggest bunch of whinging players on the field in all of college soccer.
I wonder if F&M played them at some point and tries to emulate it.
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
There would have been no "misjudgment of conference strength," because conference strength is not one of the five primary criteria listed on page 23 of D3's
Pre-Championships 2021-22 Manual (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2021-22D3XSO_PreChampManual.pdf). The only use of conference status is as a secondary criterion, not a primary one, and it's "Division III
non-conference strength of schedule" (emphasis mine). Therefore, it actually doesn't have to do with conference strength at all; it's about
non-conference strength.
You can't misjudge something you're not judging in the first place. One of the basic facts of the Pool C selection process is that teams are judged upon their own merits re: the criteria, not upon the merits of their respective conferences.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
Aaah, the NPU play-by-play guy is overrated. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him.
Haha. Now I feel like the only kid in class that doesn't get the joke. I genuinely didn't know that was you.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
My favorite example of this try-to-fit-in syndrome among Swedes is a term with which many soccer coaches are familiar (and which causes many American and British athletes to snicker), fartlek.
In adolescence, I used to make my American friends laugh hysterically at the Swedish word for 'speed' (fart), the number 6 (sex) and 'the end' (slut). Hiiiiilarious.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
A little bit more on Travis Wall, from OWU website circa 2015, who was top asst for Martin at OWU before going to St Olaf...
Prior to returning to Ohio Wesleyan in January, 2015, Wall served as director of soccer operations at Xavier University for the 2014 season, helping the Musketeers to the best season in the program's history. Xavier advanced to the final 16 teams of the NCAA tournament, upsetting fifth-ranked Indiana along the way, and set school records with 15 victories and 11 shutouts. The Xavier coaching staff was recognized as the Big East Coaching Staff of the Year.
Before going to Xavier, Wall signed with Minnesota United FC of the North American Soccer League, playing there for 2 seasons. While playing in Minnesota, Wall began his coaching career at the University of St. Thomas (Minn.), helping guide the Tommies to a 21-9-7 record during the 2012 and 2013 seasons.
Wall is a 2012 graduate of Ohio Wesleyan. He was one of the most-decorated players in Battling Bishop history, earning first-team All-America honors after his junior (2010) and senior (2011) seasons. In 2011, he was named NCAA Division III Player of the Year after leading the Bishops to the national championship. He posted 19 goals and 15 assists that season, and his 53 points was the second-highest single-season point total in Ohio Wesleyan history. Wall totaled 49 goals and 36 assists during his career, ranking fifth on both Ohio Wesleyan career lists, and his 134 total points also ranked fifth.
Wall is the brother of Tyler Wall '11 and Sarah Wall '05, each of whom were 3-time All-America selections in soccer at Ohio Wesleyan.
In June, 2016, Wall completed his coursework toward a master's degree in recreation and sport sciences from Ohio University.
In addition to his duties at Ohio Wesleyan, Wall also serves as a club soccer coach with Ohio Premier Soccer Club. In 2016, Wall led his U16 boys team to a third-place finish at the U.S. Youth Soccer national championships after claiming the first boys Midwest regional title in club history. In 2017, he became one of the youngest club coaches to serve as the head coach of a US Youth Soccer National League championship-winning side at the age of 26. In 2018, his club team made history by winning the club's first-ever boys national championship at the U19 age group.
Not to get too esoteric, but one of the traps folks fall into when trying to play the "well, if this team was in another region, they'd dominate" is that the high quality of a given conference (and region) is often based on the continued success and prestige of said conference (region).
IOW, coaches at NESCAC schools are absolutely recruiting using (in part) the idea that you are going to be playing in (arguably) the best conference in all of D3. Obviously, if you take a hypothetical situation where Hamilton gets dropped in, say the Landmark league (no disrespect), you are having to make a much different pitch to prospective players.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
There would have been no "misjudgment of conference strength," because conference strength is not one of the five primary criteria listed on page 23 of D3's Pre-Championships 2021-22 Manual (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2021-22D3XSO_PreChampManual.pdf). The only use of conference status is as a secondary criterion, not a primary one, and it's "Division III non-conference strength of schedule" (emphasis mine). Therefore, it actually doesn't have to do with conference strength at all; it's about non-conference strength.
You can't misjudge something you're not judging in the first place. One of the basic facts of the Pool C selection process is that teams are judged upon their own merits re: the criteria, not upon the merits of their respective conferences.
Appreciate the explanation. Is there no subjectivity involved in the selection process? Meaning that those listed criteria are the only ones that the committee can consider and thus it's absolutely irrelevant to them if a conference is internally strong?
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 17, 2021, 01:15:48 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
Aaah, the NPU play-by-play guy is overrated. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him.
Haha. Now I feel like the only kid in class that doesn't get the joke. I genuinely didn't know that was you.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
My favorite example of this try-to-fit-in syndrome among Swedes is a term with which many soccer coaches are familiar (and which causes many American and British athletes to snicker), fartlek.
In adolescence, I used to make my American friends laugh hysterically at the Swedish word for 'speed' (fart), the number 6 (sex) and 'the end' (slut). Hiiiiilarious.
The long-standing joke among the NPU soccer faithful is that the number and severity of the cards received by the Vikings would go up exponentially if CCIW refs ever figured out what the likes of
"Fan ta dig!",
"Jävla pucko!", or
"Men vafan!" actually mean.
(I'm too far away up in the press box to hear the dialogue on the pitch, but I get the sense that our current crop of Norwegians is more prone to use what Arlo White calls "fruity language" than are the Swedes.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 01:32:01 PM
Not to get too esoteric, but one of the traps folks fall into when trying to play the "well, if this team was in another region, they'd dominate" is that the high quality of a given conference (and region) is often based on the continued success and prestige of said conference (region).
IOW, coaches at NESCAC schools are absolutely recruiting using (in part) the idea that you are going to be playing in (arguably) the best conference in all of D3. Obviously, if you take a hypothetical situation where Hamilton gets dropped in, say the Landmark league (no disrespect), you are having to make a much different pitch to prospective players.
Excellent point.
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
There would have been no "misjudgment of conference strength," because conference strength is not one of the five primary criteria listed on page 23 of D3's Pre-Championships 2021-22 Manual (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2021-22D3XSO_PreChampManual.pdf). The only use of conference status is as a secondary criterion, not a primary one, and it's "Division III non-conference strength of schedule" (emphasis mine). Therefore, it actually doesn't have to do with conference strength at all; it's about non-conference strength.
You can't misjudge something you're not judging in the first place. One of the basic facts of the Pool C selection process is that teams are judged upon their own merits re: the criteria, not upon the merits of their respective conferences.
Appreciate the explanation. Is there no subjectivity involved in the selection process? Meaning that those listed criteria are the only ones that the committee can consider and thus it's absolutely irrelevant to them if a conference is internally strong?
No, there is some subjectivity. But it's a subjectivity that's based upon the criteria. Do we accent SOS over winning percentage? How much weight do we give RRO? Is Team A from one region so close a match for Team B from another region that we have to go to the secondary criteria to decide between them? That sort of thing is where the subjectivity comes into play.
But if it's something that isn't covered within either the primary or secondary criteria (e.g., conference strength), it's not going to be a part of the committee's conversation on Selection Day.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 16, 2021, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 15, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
6 straight Sweet 16s/Round of 16 (whatever it is called in D3 soccer) for Calvin. I could do the research, but does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any longer current streaks out there?
Others have already pointed out the current sweet 16 streaks. There was a stretch (2004-2010) where Messiah won the title 6 out of 7 years and the year they didn't, they lost in the sectional final.
Actually, Messiah lost in the national
semifinal in 2007 in the long overdue Trinity-Messiah match-up.
I was wrong earlier when I suggested that Messiah women's streak of 16 straight Sweet 16's was probably the record. Actually TCNJ women holds the record with 20 straight advancements to the Sweet 16 (1991-2010)! That's followed by Wheaton (Ill.) women with 17 straight (1997-2013). I think the longest streak of reaching the Sweet 16 on the men's side would be Messiah with 13 from 1998 - 2010 (and 16 of 17 from 1998-2014). So Amherst, now with 11, is closing in.
As for Elite 8 streaks, Messiah went 7 straight years (2004-2010) and 14 of 16 years (1999-2014). Scranton also made 7 straight Elite 8 (1977-1983) back when the tournament field was much smaller (16 teams until 1979, 24 in 1980, and then 32 from 1981 thru the mid-90's) which had advantages and disadvantages for putting together streaks like this. I think those are the longest streaks in D-III men's soccer. UNC-Greensboro were in the Elite 8 their final 6 years in D-III (1982-1987). For the women, Messiah had a run of 9 straight Elite 8's (2004-2012) and 15 of 18 (2002-2019).
Final Four streaks: Messiah men went 7 straight years (2004-2010) and 12 of 14 years (2000-2013); Messiah women went 9 straight years (2004-2012) and 14 of 18 years (2002-2019). Scranton men might be the next highest with 4 straight Final Fours (1980-1983).
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 02:05:51 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 01:32:01 PM
Not to get too esoteric, but one of the traps folks fall into when trying to play the "well, if this team was in another region, they'd dominate" is that the high quality of a given conference (and region) is often based on the continued success and prestige of said conference (region).
IOW, coaches at NESCAC schools are absolutely recruiting using (in part) the idea that you are going to be playing in (arguably) the best conference in all of D3. Obviously, if you take a hypothetical situation where Hamilton gets dropped in, say the Landmark league (no disrespect), you are having to make a much different pitch to prospective players.
Excellent point.
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 17, 2021, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
There would have been no "misjudgment of conference strength," because conference strength is not one of the five primary criteria listed on page 23 of D3's Pre-Championships 2021-22 Manual (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2021-22D3XSO_PreChampManual.pdf). The only use of conference status is as a secondary criterion, not a primary one, and it's "Division III non-conference strength of schedule" (emphasis mine). Therefore, it actually doesn't have to do with conference strength at all; it's about non-conference strength.
You can't misjudge something you're not judging in the first place. One of the basic facts of the Pool C selection process is that teams are judged upon their own merits re: the criteria, not upon the merits of their respective conferences.
Appreciate the explanation. Is there no subjectivity involved in the selection process? Meaning that those listed criteria are the only ones that the committee can consider and thus it's absolutely irrelevant to them if a conference is internally strong?
No, there is some subjectivity. But it's a subjectivity that's based upon the criteria. Do we accent SOS over winning percentage? How much weight do we give RRO? Is Team A from one region so close a match for Team B from another region that we have to go to the secondary criteria to decide between them? That sort of thing is where the subjectivity comes into play.
But if it's something that isn't covered within either the primary or secondary criteria (e.g., conference strength), it's not going to be a part of the committee's conversation on Selection Day.
Thanks! Very helpful to understand.
(But, just like with D1 that lean on RPI or other metrics, there are always unwritten and mostly unspoken influences on selection committees... Say it with me now... BIAS.)
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
A little bit more on Travis Wall, from OWU website circa 2015, who was top asst for Martin at OWU before going to St Olaf...
Wall is a 2012 graduate of Ohio Wesleyan. He was one of the most-decorated players in Battling Bishop history, earning first-team All-America honors after his junior (2010) and senior (2011) seasons. In 2011, he was named NCAA Division III Player of the Year after leading the Bishops to the national championship. He posted 19 goals and 15 assists that season, and his 53 points was the second-highest single-season point total in Ohio Wesleyan history. Wall totaled 49 goals and 36 assists during his career, ranking fifth on both Ohio Wesleyan career lists, and his 134 total points also ranked fifth.
Wall is the brother of Tyler Wall '11 and Sarah Wall '05, each of whom were 3-time All-America selections in soccer at Ohio Wesleyan.
Who do you think holds bragging rights at thanksgiving dinner... the brother and sister with 3 all-american picks or Travis with his paltry two and a NPOY.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 17, 2021, 03:12:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
A little bit more on Travis Wall, from OWU website circa 2015, who was top asst for Martin at OWU before going to St Olaf...
Wall is a 2012 graduate of Ohio Wesleyan. He was one of the most-decorated players in Battling Bishop history, earning first-team All-America honors after his junior (2010) and senior (2011) seasons. In 2011, he was named NCAA Division III Player of the Year after leading the Bishops to the national championship. He posted 19 goals and 15 assists that season, and his 53 points was the second-highest single-season point total in Ohio Wesleyan history. Wall totaled 49 goals and 36 assists during his career, ranking fifth on both Ohio Wesleyan career lists, and his 134 total points also ranked fifth.
Wall is the brother of Tyler Wall '11 and Sarah Wall '05, each of whom were 3-time All-America selections in soccer at Ohio Wesleyan.
Who do you think holds bragging rights at thanksgiving dinner... the brother and sister with 3 all-american picks or Travis with his paltry two and a NPOY.
Careful....could easily morph into a Messiah Nation trip down memory lane ;)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 03:12:02 PM
(But, just like with D1 that lean on RPI or other metrics, there are always unwritten and mostly unspoken influences on selection committees... Say it with me now... BIAS.)
LOL. Say it with me...ROCHESTER. Just kidding as a Dad of UR alum but still furious over the video paywall.
One addition to the criteria that I think would be useful (although UAA and NESCAC fans may object) would be to count a team finishing outside their conference's top 4 or top half as a legit factor to downgrade an otherwise viable resume...not necessarily a hard and fast prohibitive factor but one that can be given legitimate weight. RPI got in one year recently finishing maybe 7th (?) in the LL and another year OWU finished 5th in the NCAC (outside the NCAC tourney and I assume probably the first time in the past 40 years OWU was outside the top 2-3), and I'm sorry, but the NCAC isn't the UAA or NESCAC, and a 5th place finish in the NCAC should almost by definition mean no bid.
To tack on to Hopkins92's very good point about conferences and recruiting pitches, there's a lot be said for conferences that are mixed....meaning several perennially strong programs, a few middling, and maybe a few weaker...because in theory you could sell recruits on having some good competition, a standard to chase, and a goal of breaking into the upper tier of a conference....sot of akin to what Denison did and is doing in the NCAC or maybe a Washington College in the Centennial.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 17, 2021, 03:12:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
A little bit more on Travis Wall, from OWU website circa 2015, who was top asst for Martin at OWU before going to St Olaf...
Wall is a 2012 graduate of Ohio Wesleyan. He was one of the most-decorated players in Battling Bishop history, earning first-team All-America honors after his junior (2010) and senior (2011) seasons. In 2011, he was named NCAA Division III Player of the Year after leading the Bishops to the national championship. He posted 19 goals and 15 assists that season, and his 53 points was the second-highest single-season point total in Ohio Wesleyan history. Wall totaled 49 goals and 36 assists during his career, ranking fifth on both Ohio Wesleyan career lists, and his 134 total points also ranked fifth.
Wall is the brother of Tyler Wall '11 and Sarah Wall '05, each of whom were 3-time All-America selections in soccer at Ohio Wesleyan.
Who do you think holds bragging rights at thanksgiving dinner... the brother and sister with 3 all-american picks or Travis with his paltry two and a NPOY.
Only one has a ring!
And thus both turkey legs.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 03:12:02 PM
(But, just like with D1 that lean on RPI or other metrics, there are always unwritten and mostly unspoken influences on selection committees... Say it with me now... BIAS.)
That's an accusation that's very easy to make and very hard to prove. And it's based upon an assumption of universal selection-committee mendacity with which I disagree.
Among other things, it has to overcome the classic pitfall of a conspiracy, which is that it becomes exponentially harder to achieve consensus, much less pull off the act conspired, for every person that's added to the process. In this case, you're asking ten different people (David Kulik from Johnson & Wales, Gabe Margolis from Brandeis, Brian Marcantonio from Utica, Carl Christian from York PA, Kevin Brenner from Eastern, Jon Waters from Lynchburg, Justin Newell from Kenyon, Marc Colwell from IIT, Travis Wall from St. Olaf, and Brad Bankhead from Mary Hardin-Baylor) to agree to collude to put the wrong team into the field, to put aside their professional ethics and subvert the selection process by favoring a
clearly undeserving team over another that is indisputably better at meeting the criteria. Even without knowing anything about the character of those ten people, that's an awfully tall order.
And if you're using "unwritten and mostly unspoken influences" as your guiding phrase as to what happened in that meeting, then it
is a conspiracy, because that phrase implies awareness and, therefore, volition on the part of those ten committee members. It would almost have to be volitional, anyway, because a big part of the point of having ten people on the committee is to remove the possibility of any unconscious biases on the part of any one member influencing the call. They represent ten diffferent regions, ten different leagues, and, therefore, ten fairly disparate viewpoints, so it's hardly likely that they're going to stumble unaware in unison into picking the wrong Pool C team.
I'm not naive enough to believe that there are no people in D3 sports who lack integrity. But I'm not at all convinced that it's possible to collect ten such people on one committee. And I don't fancy the idea of people pointing their fingers at Gabe Margolis as the obvious ringleader of the conspiracy to supplant Wesleyan (or anybody else, for that matter) with Rochester just because he's a fellow UAA coach. That's a really unfair accusation and a challenge to someone's integrity that's based upon guilt by association. I'm not saying that you or anybody else is doing that, mind you, but it
is the logical next step down this path if you believe that the committee colluded to push aside the rules by which it was instructed to abide in order to assent to somebody's favoritism. If there's a claim of acted-upon bias, then the next step is to explain it by searching for an insider who has the means and motivation to turn that bias into reality. (I suppose it's possible that somebody else among those ten people might have had some tie to UR that could lead someone who is conspiracy-minded to think that that committee member had a personal agenda to favor the Yellowjackets in the selection process, but I haven't heard of any other connections to Rochester among the ten.)
(Brandeis alumnus deiscanton theorized that Margolis might've taken up Rochester's case and persuaded his nine peers to select the Yellowjackets in an above-board manner, but, if Rochester was clearly undeserving, it's almost as hard to believe that one advocate could sway nine skeptics through sheer force of rhetoric as it is to believe that ten people with no common connection and no common agenda would collude to subvert the Pool C selection process by picking a team that didn't belong in the field.)
I'm not denying that Rochester getting in was something of a head-scratcher. But Pool C head-scratchers are hardly uncommon. Christan Shirk, whom I believe knows how to read the Selection Day tea leaves better than anybody else, had the Yellowjackets in his "Wrong Side of the Bubble" group in his analysis-and-predictions column on d3soccer.com. But he also said this: "But with so little separating these teams from those in the previous group ["Squarely On the Bubble -- Pick 4 of 6"], hearing any of their names called won't be a big surprise." You could write that off as Christan doing a CYA, but the reality is that the variances between the teams on the bubble when you get down to the last two or three Pool C picks amount to minutiae -- minutiae small enough that the remaining teams all fall within the range of valid (albeit subjective) choices. That's why it seems like most years, in every team sport (not just men's soccer), this kind of argument -- and, often, the same accusation you're leveling -- occurs concerning what's presumably the last one or two teams picked for the field. If you look around d3boards.com you'll find them
everywhere.
Whoa.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My only point in chiming in about being careful about falling into logical/theoretical traps was very much in GENERAL terms. Same thing with the bias comment. People are biased. It's human nature.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 05:04:45 PM
Whoa.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My only point in chiming in about being careful about falling into logical/theoretical traps was very much in GENERAL terms. Same thing with the bias comment. People are biased. It's human nature.
True, and this resonates big time — even when we (myself included) think we're being objective. "Motivated reasoning" just became part of my lexicon after reading this
New Yorker article (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/23/why-is-it-so-hard-to-be-rational).
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2021, 03:30:33 PM
One addition to the criteria that I think would be useful (although UAA and NESCAC fans may object) would be to count a team finishing outside their conference's top 4 or top half as a legit factor to downgrade an otherwise viable resume...not necessarily a hard and fast prohibitive factor but one that can be given legitimate weight. RPI got in one year recently finishing maybe 7th (?) in the LL and another year OWU finished 5th in the NCAC (outside the NCAC tourney and I assume probably the first time in the past 40 years OWU was outside the top 2-3), and I'm sorry, but the NCAC isn't the UAA or NESCAC, and a 5th place finish in the NCAC should almost by definition mean no bid.
I remember that RPI team that got in, it was 2015, they played Brandeis in the 2nd round (lost 2-1 in 2OT after parking the bus and getting a 90th minute equalizer). I think the big gripe wasn't that they had finished 7th, per se, but rather that they hadn't even qualified for their conference tournament. Either way, I'd have no qualms with that being a part of the criteria — but that's a whole other can of worms.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 17, 2021, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 17, 2021, 05:04:45 PM
Whoa.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My only point in chiming in about being careful about falling into logical/theoretical traps was very much in GENERAL terms. Same thing with the bias comment. People are biased. It's human nature.
True, and this resonates big time — even when we (myself included) think we're being objective. "Motivated reasoning" just became part of my lexicon after reading this New Yorker article (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/08/23/why-is-it-so-hard-to-be-rational).
I'm not denying that at all. I'm well aware that each of us walks around with a headful of both conscious and unconscious biases. What I'm saying is that the committee is designed not only to represent each region of the country but to create a Selection Day conversation broad enough and diverse enough to not only head off any bias by one individual, be it conscious or unconscious, but to guard against the chance that most or all of them will share said biases.
My guess is that the point is pretty well hammered into each of their heads that the five primary criteria rule above all else, making them hyper-aware of the existence of such biases as they may take with them into the conversation -- and it's combined with a willingness to discard those biases that is implicit in the decision to accept the call to serve on the committee.
You were doing so well....+k
So as the Region 2 chair, as the at large picks are winding down, Margolis is asked to compare his highest available seed vs the others, and the Region 3 chair has Rochester. So Margolis says "I have MIT, the team that won the NEWMAC regular season and lost in the finals of their tournament. They are 4-3-1 vs ranked teams vs Rochester's 3-3-1, who finished 6th in the UAA. But more importantly, my team played both within the last month - we tied Rochester despite outshooting them 27-12 and we lost to the MIT in OT while being outshot 13-6. I think clearly MIT is the more deserving side". Hard to believe the Region 2 chair, making this argument would have any problem winning over voters.
Problem is, the team Margolis instead chose to argue for was WPI, the NEWMAC 5th place team that lost in the quarterfinals of the tourney and had a 3-4-2 record vs ranked teams. Mind you, Brandeis also lost to WPI this year, so Margolis still could have made an argument for WPI over Rochester. But the point is Margolis, as the chair of Region 2, buried the best argument for an at large bid for that region down under the teams that finished 4th and 5th in the league. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but simply pointing out that decisions in the Regional rankings are vital.
Another example is Hopkins, the outright winner of the Centennial conference with a 4-3-1 record vs ranked teams yet ending up ranked behind Gettysburg (5th in the Centennial) after GC "makes a run" in the Centennial tourney, allowing them to get to 3-4-2 record vs ranked teams. I get that the GC beat Hopkins in the conf tourney, but the regular season has to mean something. Of course, both Hopkins and Gettysburg were able to make the tourney, as well as Region V's 6th ranked team Swarthmore. But no one was surprised that GC and Swat left after 1 game. And as could be expected, Hopkins found a way to win a tight game and almost snuck into the sweet 16.
So it's not so much that we need to avoid putting teams with losing records in a conference into the big tourney, although of course that's a red flag. But the regular season conference performance provides great comparison between teams playing the same schedule. A 1st place team has proven over weeks of play that they have worth. Regions shouldn't allow a knockout tourney to have more say in determining a team's ability to get results.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 08:17:03 PMBut the point is Margolis, as the chair of Region 2, buried the best argument for an at large bid for that region down under the teams that finished 4th and 5th in the league. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but simply pointing out that decisions in the Regional rankings are vital.
I think you are aware that there are Regional Advisory Committees (RACs), right? And that the members of the national committee (in this case the Division III men's soccer committee) chair these RACs,
but are non-voting members of the RACs? The regional rankings are decided by the voting members of the RACs, not by the national committee member who chairs the RAC.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d3/champs/D3Champs_RACProcedures.pdf
QuoteEach conference sponsoring the respective sport (with seven or more members) must have
equal representation. The chair is not included in these representatives. The chair is a
non-voting member with a charge to facilitate the RAC process and report back to the
national governing sport committee. Conference offices will be asked to appoint
individuals to the RAC (not inclusive of the RAC chair) for all sports.
I have no insight into how the national committee member in practice merely facilitates the RAC process without being influential in the process. And the national committee can, but word is they rarely do, revise the regional rankings provided to them by the RACs. So the ranking of the teams in Region I was down to the four voting members of the RAC representing the CCC, MASCAC, NECC and NEWMAC.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 17, 2021, 09:39:10 PM
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 08:17:03 PMBut the point is Margolis, as the chair of Region 2, buried the best argument for an at large bid for that region down under the teams that finished 4th and 5th in the league. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but simply pointing out that decisions in the Regional rankings are vital.
I think you are aware that there are Regional Advisory Committees (RACs), right? And that the members of the national committee (in this case the Division III men's soccer committee) chair these RACs, but are non-voting members of the RACs? The regional rankings are decided by the voting members of the RACs, not by the national committee member who chairs the RAC.
Flying Weasel- thanks for the info. I wrongly assumed the chair was actually the leader of the RAC, and not just a non-voting member. My stance remains the same but should have been pointed at the RACs as a group. It's vital to give the Regional Chair the best possible argument to enter into a debate, and conference performance over weeks of play should not be so easily blurred by knockout tourney results.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PM
So as the Region 2 chair, as the at large picks are winding down, Margolis is asked to compare his highest available seed vs the others,
As Flying Weasel explained, it doesn't work this way. The regional chairs are non-voting members of the regional advisory committees, so for Margolis this would not be "his highest available seed."
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMand the Region 3 chair has Rochester. So Margolis says "I have MIT, the team that won the NEWMAC regular season and lost in the finals of their tournament. They are 4-3-1 vs ranked teams vs Rochester's 3-3-1, who finished 6th in the UAA.
Wouldn't happen. Conference standings finish is not germane to the criteria.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PM
But more importantly, my team played both within the last month - we tied Rochester despite outshooting them 27-12 and we lost to the MIT in OT while being outshot 13-6.
Wouldn't happen. Granular statistical details like that aren't a part of the process. For one thing, they're frequently misleading. And I'm pretty sure that football, which has such a small schedule and extremely limited interconference crossovers, is the only D3 sport whose committee regularly delves into comparative margins of victory when it comes to ascertaining Pool C bids. And even then it never gets so granular as to go into total yardage, number of first downs, etc. So, again, stuff such as # of shots (or SOG, or corners, etc.) are not considered germane to the criteria.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMI think clearly MIT is the more deserving side". Hard to believe the Region 2 chair, making this argument would have any problem winning over voters.
Problem is, the team Margolis instead chose to argue for was WPI, the NEWMAC 5th place team
Again, wouldn't happen. Conference standings finish is not germane to the criteria.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMthat lost in the quarterfinals of the tourney
When a team loses, and whether it's in the regular season or the conference tourney, doesn't matter. Not germane to the criteria. The only exception is if the committee gets approval from D3's championships committee for a special waiver to allow it to consider the final 25% of the season as a discrete unit. And if anyone has ever tried -- amidst the rush of Selection Day, mind you -- to send an appeal up the chain of command to the championships committee for such a waiver on short notice, I've never heard of it.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMand had a 3-4-2 record vs ranked teams. Mind you, Brandeis also lost to WPI this year, so Margolis still could have made an argument for WPI over Rochester. But the point is Margolis, as the chair of Region 2, buried the best argument for an at large bid for that region down under the teams that finished 4th and 5th in the league. I'm not saying he did it consciously, but simply pointing out that decisions in the Regional rankings are vital.
Sure. But, again, they're not
his regional ranking decisions.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMAnother example is Hopkins, the outright winner of the Centennial conference with a 4-3-1 record vs ranked teams yet ending up ranked behind Gettysburg (5th in the Centennial) after GC "makes a run" in the Centennial tourney, allowing them to get to 3-4-2 record vs ranked teams. I get that the GC beat Hopkins in the conf tourney, but the regular season has to mean something.
Sure it does. For Pool C purposes each regular season game counts for just as much as a conference tourney game. No more, no less. And each non-conference game counts for just as much as a conference game, no more, no less, in terms of the primary criteria. (In terms of the secondary criteria, non-conference games actually matter
more.) Again, it's all right there on page 23. (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2021-22D3XSO_PreChampManual.pdf)
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PM
Of course, both Hopkins and Gettysburg were able to make the tourney, as well as Region V's 6th ranked team Swarthmore. But no one was surprised that GC and Swat left after 1 game.
Irrelevant.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMAnd as could be expected, Hopkins found a way to win a tight game and almost snuck into the sweet 16.
Irelevant. Anybody can play the 20/20 hindsight game. But nobody has a foolproof crystal ball that allows them to pick for Pool C only the teams that are going to perform well over the next few weeks. And, what's more, the eventual results are a completely separate issue from the purpose at hand, which is to pick the best teams according to the criteria given to the committee.
Quote from: Futbol is Life on November 17, 2021, 09:25:09 PMSo it's not so much that we need to avoid putting teams with losing records in a conference into the big tourney, although of course that's a red flag. But the regular season conference performance provides great comparison between teams playing the same schedule. A 1st place team has proven over weeks of play that they have worth. Regions shouldn't allow a knockout tourney to have more say in determining a team's ability to get results.
You're separating games into groupings that are not regarded as such by the committee. Again, look at the manual. It doesn't distinguish between when games are played, or whether they were considered regular-season non-conference games, regular-season conference games, or conference tournament games. They all count the same. In terms of the circumstances of the game, they're only interested in whether or not the game was regional, and whether or not it was against an eligible D3 school (i.e., a full D3 member or a school in its third or fourth school year of provisional D3 membership).
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 17, 2021, 11:27:03 AM
Just wanted to point out from an NCAA rules perspective that it was not necessary for Conn to sub in the pk specialist goalie before OT expired. That would be the case under FIFA rules, but NCAA rules allow any non-ejected player to participate. As far as the idea of getting him in the game to avoid putting him in cold for pks, I get it, but the substitution itself was not required by the rules. Another quirk in NCAA pk rules. FIFA has all 11 players participating, or else a reduction by the team with 11 if one team is playing with 10. NCAA rules ask a team to designate 10 kickers, one of whom may be the goalkeeper. In the Tufts-Stevens shootout, teams only went 10 deep instead of 11 before allowing repeat kickers.
They also designated a backup goalkeeper to take a kick.
It's ridiculous that anybody can participate like that.
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
Geography has EVERYTHING to do with it.
There are a limited number of Pool C spots. They can't all be teams from New England, where every NESCAC team is based.
Let's look at this year.
Wesleyan is 5th in the NESCAC and 5th in the regional rankings.
Entering them in the tournament would give four of the 21 pool C bids to one region - which isn't unheard of, but it doesn't seem to be an annual occurrence.
The four UAA teams receiving pool C bids all were top 2 in their regions, pretty much guaranteeing (based on historical norms) those teams spots in the tournament.
Now imagine that all the UAA teams are in one region this year. Rochester would likely be rated 5th best in that 'region' after finishing .500 in the conference, good for 6th place. Do they get into the tournament? Unlikely.
But, in real life, the committee will be thinking, "do we pick the #5 team in this region in order to keep out one of these four teams ranked #2 in their region?" That #5 NESCAC team would have to be demonstrably better, ie beaten one of the UAA teams head-to-head, in order to take that pool c slot. Because the UAA is spread out geographically, when they have teams sitting at the top of their region (as was the case this year), they are going to get more bids than a geographically concentrated conference.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 17, 2021, 03:12:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 17, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 15, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
Very cool indeed. That coach hasn't even hit puberty by the looks of him. I keep an eye on the MIAC during the season, since that's where I played One Quarter Of A Million years ago. I watched St. Olaf play with discipline, creativity, poise--and had a couple of gnarly set piece plays to boot. When trying to evaluate where they stood on a national level, I didn't rate them like a Kenyon, Messiah, or Tufts, because teams can look very good against average opposition (to wit: MSU). I would love to have them prove me wrong, and see a Champion from the MIAC. You never know: this is football. Anything can happen.
Wall was a 3-time all american at OWU, winning national POTY in 2011, and a national championship in that same year.
He has another couple seasons in the national conversation and he's getting good D1 looks soon.
A little bit more on Travis Wall, from OWU website circa 2015, who was top asst for Martin at OWU before going to St Olaf...
Wall is a 2012 graduate of Ohio Wesleyan. He was one of the most-decorated players in Battling Bishop history, earning first-team All-America honors after his junior (2010) and senior (2011) seasons. In 2011, he was named NCAA Division III Player of the Year after leading the Bishops to the national championship. He posted 19 goals and 15 assists that season, and his 53 points was the second-highest single-season point total in Ohio Wesleyan history. Wall totaled 49 goals and 36 assists during his career, ranking fifth on both Ohio Wesleyan career lists, and his 134 total points also ranked fifth.
Wall is the brother of Tyler Wall '11 and Sarah Wall '05, each of whom were 3-time All-America selections in soccer at Ohio Wesleyan.
Who do you think holds bragging rights at thanksgiving dinner... the brother and sister with 3 all-american picks or Travis with his paltry two and a NPOY.
Travis edges Tyler since he had the higher honors.
But Sarah is top dog in that discussion.
Travis National POTY. Natty championship. 4 conference champs and 2 conference tourneys. 3-time first team all-ncac.
Tyler made two 3rd teams and a first team. 4-time first team NCAC and 2-time NCAC POTY. Won three league titles, two tourney titles.
Sarah has two first team awards and a 2nd team. Also has 3 first team academic all-american selections and was a 4-time NCAC 1st team and POTY. To top it off, she also has an unblemished national championship.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 18, 2021, 12:43:16 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
Geography has EVERYTHING to do with it.
There are a limited number of Pool C spots. They can't all be teams from New England, where every NESCAC team is based.
Sure they can. There's nothing stopping the committee from giving all 21 Pool C bids to New England teams, if they think that each of those New England teams warrant one of those 21 berths. It's extraordinarily implausible -- the odds are staggering against it ever happening -- but it's certainly within the rules. There's nothing in the manual that says that Pool C bids can only be apportioned to regionally-ranked teams. Theoretically, the committee can delve below the ranked teams if all of the ranked Pool C aspirants from that region have already come off of the table. (And, of course, New England falls within two regions, not one.)
Also, a nitpick: Despite the league's name, not every NESCAC team is based in New England. (https://athletics.hamilton.edu/sports/msoc/index)
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 18, 2021, 12:43:16 PMLet's look at this year.
Wesleyan is 5th in the NESCAC and 5th in the regional rankings.
Entering them in the tournament would give four of the 21 pool C bids to one region - which isn't unheard of, but it doesn't seem to be an annual occurrence.
The four UAA teams receiving pool C bids all were top 2 in their regions, pretty much guaranteeing (based on historical norms) those teams spots in the tournament.
Now imagine that all the UAA teams are in one region this year. Rochester would likely be rated 5th best in that 'region' after finishing .500 in the conference, good for 6th place. Do they get into the tournament? Unlikely.
But, in real life, the committee will be thinking, "do we pick the #5 team in this region in order to keep out one of these four teams ranked #2 in their region?" That #5 NESCAC team would have to be demonstrably better, ie beaten one of the UAA teams head-to-head, in order to take that pool c slot.
It doesn't work that way. I've listened to any number of committee members from various D3 sports speak on this topic, and they always say the same thing, regardless of sport: "The team that we pick comes off of the table, is replaced at the table by the next team in rank from that region, and then we start the comparison process all over again."
In other words, the only advantage inherent in being #2 in one region as opposed to #5 in a different region is that the #2 gets to the table quicker, and is there at the table for more rounds (if it doesn't get in) than is the case for the #5 team. The #5 team from Region Alpha may actually be better on the criteria merits than the #2 team from Region Beta; it may simply have to wait until the four Alpha teams above it are already in the field (presumably, one or more of them are automatically in via Pool A) before it gets a chance to prove itself against Beta's #2 in the discussion. There's no specific need for Alpha #5 to have beaten Beta #2, or any team from Beta #2's league, head-to-head in order to take that Pool C slot.
In other words, there's no bonus awarded to a team for being ranked higher in its region than other teams were ranked in their respective regions when they're all at the table together in the Selection Day process.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 18, 2021, 12:43:16 PM
Because the UAA is spread out geographically, when they have teams sitting at the top of their region (as was the case this year), they are going to get more bids than a geographically concentrated conference.
That is a narrower point than I think you're trying to prove, vis-a-vis Rochester vs. Wesleyan for Pool C, for at least a couple of reasons that immediately come to mind:
1) The first condition of your premise must be met, and it's definitely not a given. Various UAA teams have to actually be good enough to make their respective regional rankings en masse in order for this to even be an issue. The fact that they do this year after year shouldn't be overlooked; the bottom line is that the UAA is replete with really good D3 soccer programs. The corollary is proven true in other sports (baseball and softball being great examples) in which UAA schools aren't notably good as a whole; in 2019, only two UAA baseball teams made the D3 tourney and only two UAA softball teams made the D3 tourney, despite the fact that the D3 tourney fields in those sports were roughly the same size as the D3 men's soccer tourney field.
2) Geography is the friend of the NESCAC as well. Because the NESCAC is almost completely located within the most heavily D3-populated part of the country (New England), and because New England is so geographically compact, scheduling strategically with Pool C in mind is easier for NESCAC teams than it is for most other prominent leagues in D3 men's soccer. Some UAA programs have a fairly user-friendly menu of local D3 opponents from which to schedule strategically (Brandeis, Chicago, NYU); for others it requires a fair amount of weekday bus travel to make it happen (Wash U, Carnegie Mellon); and for one it's really difficult, period (Emory). Keep in mind that not every school within weekday bus range of a UAA or NESCAC school has a soccer coach who is willing to play that UAA or NESCAC team.
Yes, if your premise is met -- a very big if, as any UAA baseball or softball coach will tell you -- being the lone geographically dispersed conference in D3 with regard to regions is a plus. But it's not an overriding plus to the point where the UAA can crowd out other teams by sheer virtue of multi-regional representation. The UAA teams still have to get in via Pool C on their own particular merits.
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
I'm just catching up on the last couple of days and I don't think anyone addressed your last question.
In addition to being more similar to UAA schools in terms of size, Tufts is also in a major metro area, like all of the UAA schools (although I'm stretching that definition a little to accommodate Rochester) and unlike the other NESCAC schools (except potentially for Trinity, depending on your opinion of Hartford). But Tufts has been in the NESCAC since it was formed in 1971. The UAA wasn't formed until 1986. So by that time, Tufts was a longstanding member of the NESCAC and it has had no particular desire to leave.
If we were putting together conferences today, from scratch, there's reason to believe that Tufts would be in the UAA, as it certainly does look a lot more like a UAA school than a NESCAC school. But it's certainly not automatic: While UAA charter member Hopkins was and continues to be more like the UAA schools than the schools in the Centennial, they nevertheless left the UAA and haven't shown any interest in returning, AFAIK.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
This is absolutely fantastic. What a facility and I am really looking forward to the games today as a neutral.
Friday:2:00PM North Park v St.Olaf
4:30PM Chicago v Calvin
Saturday:4:00PM Winners
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2021, 05:55:01 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2021, 05:06:57 PM
St. Olaf has a very cool hype video. (https://wp.stolaf.edu/news/the-ties-that-bind-a-team?stolightbox=p1152)
This is absolutely fantastic. What a facility and I am really looking forward to the games today as a neutral.
Friday:
2:00PM North Park v St.Olaf
4:30PM Chicago v Calvin
Saturday:
4:00PM Winners
I believe these times are eastern.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 18, 2021, 08:36:29 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
I'm just catching up on the last couple of days and I don't think anyone addressed your last question.
In addition to being more similar to UAA schools in terms of size, Tufts is also in a major metro area, like all of the UAA schools (although I'm stretching that definition a little to accommodate Rochester) and unlike the other NESCAC schools (except potentially for Trinity, depending on your opinion of Hartford). But Tufts has been in the NESCAC since it was formed in 1971. The UAA wasn't formed until 1986. So by that time, Tufts was a longstanding member of the NESCAC and it has had no particular desire to leave.
If we were putting together conferences today, from scratch, there's reason to believe that Tufts would be in the UAA, as it certainly does look a lot more like a UAA school than a NESCAC school. But it's certainly not automatic: While UAA charter member Hopkins was and continues to be more like the UAA schools than the schools in the Centennial, they nevertheless left the UAA and haven't shown any interest in returning, AFAIK.
The other thing with Hopkins in the UAA is that they were only kind of/sort of in... They didn't compete in soccer, AFAIK and I don't think they did in football, either. I could be wrong, but of the major sports, I think they only competed in basketball?
I know that prior to the Centennial, most of those that broke off were charter (or very close to original) members of the first iteration of the Mid-Atlantic Conference. We competed in the smaller version of the MAC while I played in Baltimore.
Well, my YouTube algorithm is finally fully tuned up... This just showed up in my feed this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVHzTm_WQjI
I know the Shoremen have picked up some fans this season... Fun little hype video they put out earlier this week.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2021, 10:02:03 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 18, 2021, 08:36:29 PM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
I'm just catching up on the last couple of days and I don't think anyone addressed your last question.
In addition to being more similar to UAA schools in terms of size, Tufts is also in a major metro area, like all of the UAA schools (although I'm stretching that definition a little to accommodate Rochester) and unlike the other NESCAC schools (except potentially for Trinity, depending on your opinion of Hartford). But Tufts has been in the NESCAC since it was formed in 1971. The UAA wasn't formed until 1986. So by that time, Tufts was a longstanding member of the NESCAC and it has had no particular desire to leave.
If we were putting together conferences today, from scratch, there's reason to believe that Tufts would be in the UAA, as it certainly does look a lot more like a UAA school than a NESCAC school. But it's certainly not automatic: While UAA charter member Hopkins was and continues to be more like the UAA schools than the schools in the Centennial, they nevertheless left the UAA and haven't shown any interest in returning, AFAIK.
The other thing with Hopkins in the UAA is that they were only kind of/sort of in... They didn't compete in soccer, AFAIK and I don't think they did in football, either. I could be wrong, but of the major sports, I think they only competed in basketball?
Johns Hopkins did compete in UAA basketball, but the Blue Jays only played a single round-robin each season and were thus ineligible for the UAA title, since the league's scheduling format was (and is) the double round-robin used by most D3 conferences in basketball. Interestingly, Case Western Reserve only played a single round-robin (and was thus also ineligible for the UAA title) as well until it finally went all-in and went to the full home-and-home UAA slate in 1999-00. JHU finally dropped the one-toe-in-the-pool attitude towards UAA membership it'd had for a decade and a half and left the league altogether after the 2000-01 school year.
0-0 30 minutes in. Both teams feeling it out 1st Half. North Park does see a matchup they like as they keep attacking St.Olaf LB.
North Park coming now...about 2-3 good looks 10 min left 1st Half...Need to finish one of those.
0-0 Half....Announcers for U Chicago absolutely excellent and correct that North Park starting to wear down a tired St.Olaf midfield. Even with a St.Olaf 25 yard shot the North Park defense does not seem to bothered by anything St.Olaf is bringing forward as of now.
Good half of football. Both teams had opportunities. The Oles made two square passes in the midfield which could have cost them--one leading to a 3-on-2 counter that had everything except the finish. NPU is relying on the long ball whereas the Oles are moving the ball through the midfield very crisply, catching NPU defenders on the weak side. Either team could win this.
Great job with the announcing!
I think St. Olaf has come out of the HT pretty hot. Very even game, IMO.
Now NP taking control. Two very strong chances in the 20th minute or thereabouts.
Overall, really good game.
Great goal for NPU. It was coming. I think it was the 49 who weighted a perfect pass. Good player.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 19, 2021, 03:52:12 PM
Great goal for NPU. It was coming. I think it was the 49 who weighted a perfect pass. Good player.
Correct, great pass from Isak Flo.
Absolute Strikers Goal but a great weighted ball....1-0 NPU Final....They just had a little more quality in attack and showed no panic. St.Olaf really well done as well as they will all be back with only 3 Seniors....
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2021, 03:58:03 PM
Absolute Strikers Goal but a great weighted ball....1-0 NPU Final....They just had a little more quality in attack and showed no panic. St.Olaf really well done as well as they will all be back with only 3 Seniors....
The pass was just a thing of beauty. Perfect weight, in stride, between three defenders... wow.
Calvin at Chicago 0-0 Halftime....Good competitive game. Love the Announcers...Color dude doing some serious tactical breakdown.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2021, 03:58:03 PM
Absolute Strikers Goal but a great weighted ball....1-0 NPU Final....They just had a little more quality in attack and showed no panic. St.Olaf really well done as well as they will all be back with only 3 Seniors....
I'll have to look for a video clip of the goal. I watched the first 60 minutes and then had to teach an afternoon class, so I missed the exciting finish. Both very evenly matched teams in a great game. Congrats to the Vikings for advancing, and congrats to St. Olaf for great season.
Chicago defeats Calvin 1-0 on another fantastic clinical finish. UC #14 Yetishefsky is some striker. Can really strike a ball with both feet. UC two 6'4 Central Defenders are beasts...Good good team.
Feel real badly for Calvin man, always a bridesmaid it seems.
The one thing is that they keep playing quality football year in year out and always make noise in the Dance. One of the truly elite programs out there for sure.
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 19, 2021, 05:36:51 PM
Calvin at Chicago 0-0 Halftime....Good competitive game. Love the Announcers...Color dude doing some serious tactical breakdown.
The announcers are first-rate -- very knowledgeable.
Quote from: SlideTackle on November 17, 2021, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: wingtips2 on November 17, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 15, 2021, 11:39:28 AM
SlideTackle, I think saying NESCAC got no respect is a bit of distortion. They did get 4, which is pretty good and about what they usually get. Yes, they deserved five this year. And yes, they should have gotten one of the Centennial bids and Rochester should not have received a bid.
The geographic concentration of the NESCAC in a singular area doesn't help their case.
The UAA is spread out and each of the teams could be theoretically be considered top team in their region and have the entire conference get in.
And the Centennial teams have a lot more wiggle room geographically as well.
And this has probably been discussed before, but why isn't Tufts in the UAA? Their academic profile as a research university with endless graduate programs certainly matches the UAA teams more than the NESCAC.
Not sure what geographics has to do with this. If you put NESCAC teams that finished 5-10 this year in several other region I or even region II conferences they'd win far more games and likely finish in the top 2 in many if not all of those conferences. Hamilton, who finished 10th in the NESCAC this year and is quite talented, beat Oneonta in October. Oneonta gave Mid a good game but finishes the year having lost to 2 NESCSAC teams. I don't think Cortland will be very competitive against Amherst, but we shall see.
Don't recall all of this year's games, but I believe in UAA v. NESCAC this year NESCAC teams won their games and I don't believe gave up a goal. The two I recall are Tufts 4-0 over Brandeis and Conn 3-0 over NYU. Both those NESCAC teams lost to or tied NESCAC teams that didn't get bids to the tournament. I guess every year is different, but the last tournament had 2 NESCACs in the national finals, they have been ranked in the top 10 most of the year and yet the committee gave only 4 slots to NESCAC and 5 to UAA. I wouldn't chalk that up to geographics. Probavbly more a misjudgment of conference strength.
Amherst 2
Cortland 0
17th minute of first half. Giammattei with goals 30 seconds apart. So far Cortland not vey competitive.
Not saying Amherst aren't, obviously, the better team, but that ref sure bought a (well-crafted) dive on that PK.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
Not saying Amherst aren't, obviously, the better team, but that ref sure bought a (well-crafted) dive on that PK.
Agreed. Gave Amherst good momentum and I'm sure was deflating.
Watched yesterday's games and boy were they fun to watch and really comeptitive. A lot of parity there and all 4 teams deserved a W. Can't say that about this game so far.
NSN guy acting like his payday depends on keeping viewers around for 2nd half.
I missed the beginning of the Amherst-Cortland game. I was about to watch, but I checked the score first. 3-0 at the half. Looks like Cortland missed the start of the game, too.
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 11:59:58 AM
I missed the beginning of the Amherst-Cortland game. I was about to watch, but I checked the score first. 3-0 at the half. Looks like Cortland missed the start of the game, too.
No offense, completely neutral observer... Two completely different level of teams. Amherst with an extremely difficult combo of gritty, hard-nosed defense and fluid and very direct (in a good way) approach to the attack. Cortland couldn't possess or string more then 2 passes together.
Question for the group: Is it better to get bounced in the first weekend, or make it to the second weekend and get run off the field?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 12:25:40 PM
Question for the group: Is it better to get bounced in the first weekend, or make it to the second weekend and get run off the field?
Always better to go deeper. You take every win as special, tournament wins even more so. Getting to the sweet sixteen is an accomplishment among 400+ teams no matter how you end it.
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 12:41:49 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 12:25:40 PM
Question for the group: Is it better to get bounced in the first weekend, or make it to the second weekend and get run off the field?
Always better to go deeper. You take every win as special, tournament wins even more so. Getting to the sweet sixteen is an accomplishment among 400+ teams no matter how you end it.
Agreed. I have to imagine that it's a better tool on the recruiting trail as well. The words "Sweet Sixteen" are a real selling point. Nobody cares about the details of your last loss when you're sitting in their living room trying to persuade them to attend your school.
Absolute banger from W&L to take a 1-0 lead in the 1st. Dude acted like "eh, no big deal. I score 22 yard upper 90 bangers all the time." Icy.
Pretty goal but about all that's been pretty so far. Looks very much like a sweet sixteen d3 game. Big bodies, longer balls, individual efforts. Going to be a slugfest I think.
Flipping back and forth and doing other stuff, but... Sure seems like the Shoremen are hanging tough with Tufts. Every time I check in, WC is bringing the ball into their attacking 3rd.
Generals got away with some shambolic defending right before the half. Need to regroup or that 1 goal lead is going to be hard to hold on to.
Michael Nyc 's two saves at the very end were spectacular, I thought. He makes a difference for W&L.
PS the camera work is driving me nuts though.
Wonder strike from the Captains! Jumbos with a quality finish of their own. Both just into the start of their respective second halves.
And, Ladies and Gentlemen, the dream is alive on the Eastern Shore! Brilliant cross finds a striker in the box, one touch to settle and a banger near post.
We are level up in Boston, 35th(ish) minute.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2021, 01:59:46 PM
Michael Nyc 's two saves at the very end were spectacular, I thought. He makes a difference for W&L.
PS the camera work is driving me nuts though.
Yes. The Commentators are good, but the camera work is giving me a headache. I also think the ref is letting CNU play rougher than W&L. Interesting because usually the big guys don't get the calls but today they are by a bit. Not egregious, but definitely a bit odd.
And the camera man completely misses W&L's second goal.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2021, 01:59:46 PM
PS the camera work is driving me nuts though.
I assume it was a nice 2nd goal for Adrian Zimmerman? Camera was locked to the right side of the field... again. Almost unwatchable.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 02:26:16 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2021, 01:59:46 PM
PS the camera work is driving me nuts though.
I assume it was a nice 2nd goal for Adrian Zimmerman? Camera was locked to the right side of the field... again. Almost unwatchable.
It was. The guy had 6 in the regular season. 7 so far in the NCAA Tournament. But sitting on a yellow from this game is a bit scary.
And W&L gets another on some nice play into the box. 3-1 W&L.
And the Captains thread one through. Really nice run and finish from the striker. 3-2 with 17 minutes to go. Good game from a competitive standpoint.
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:30:04 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 02:26:16 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 20, 2021, 01:59:46 PM
PS the camera work is driving me nuts though.
I assume it was a nice 2nd goal for Adrian Zimmerman? Camera was locked to the right side of the field... again. Almost unwatchable.
It was. The guy had 6 in the regular season. 7 so far in the NCAA Tournament. But sitting on a yellow from this game is a bit scary.
And W&L gets another on some nice play into the box. 3-1 W&L.
Wow. Captains get one back. 3-2 W&L. Quite an affair down there.
And both teams have beaten the keeper and hit near post in the last 5 minutes.
Just going end to end. Feels like there is one more goal in this game before the end of regulation. But no idea who gets it.
Tufts-WC still level in the 90th minute. Even match, not much in the way of great scoring opportunities. WC had an IDK in the area in the 85th minute but missed a shot at the upper left. At halftime, I decided to go to the match (I can be at Bello in 10 minutes), but the parking lot was full, and by the time I got home, I'd missed the first 10 minutes of the second half--which featured both of the goals--so I'm not sure what happened there.
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:50:34 PM
Just going end to end. Feels like there is one more goal in this game before the end of regulation. But no idea who gets it.
And I was wrong. W&L wins 3-2. Generals might have cleared one off the line with less than a minute to go, but since the camera person forgot the job, I have no idea.
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:50:34 PM
Just going end to end. Feels like there is one more goal in this game before the end of regulation. But no idea who gets it.
And I was wrong. W&L wins 3-2. Generals might have cleared one off the line with less than a minute to go, but since the camera person forgot the job, I have no idea.
Seriously, somebody needs to talk to whoever is doing that. FFS. The CNU bench and fans went ABSOLUTELY ballistic during (again, I guess?) a scramble in the box in the final 30 seconds. Coach got a card after the game for really hammering the ref on (again, I guess?) a foul in the box?
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Tufts-WC still level in the 90th minute. Even match, not much in the way of great scoring opportunities. WC had an IDK in the area in the 85th minute but missed a shot at the upper left. At halftime, I decided to go to the match (I can be at Bello in 10 minutes), but the parking lot was full, and by the time I got home, I'd missed the first 10 minutes of the second half--which featured both of the goals--so I'm not sure what happened there.
Scroll back up and we gave a quick description. Both goals came off nice crosses that switched the point of attack and finished clinically on both ends.
OT and as has been noted, this is a very even game. Without a real rooting interest, I'd actually give the edge to the Shoreman in the second half.
Oh, and the call in the box was an indirect kick for basically laying on the ball/playing it while prone.
And, 2 minutes in Cano luck-boxes his way into a cross--> goal into the far corner/side net. That's truly an unlucky, dagger of a goal.
Edit - You know what?? I think he might actually have meant to do that?? He had a ton of time, picked his head up and.. I dunno... That might have been on purpose and if so... WOW.
And Tufts chips the keeper from 30 yards to win it.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 03:02:55 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 02:50:34 PM
Just going end to end. Feels like there is one more goal in this game before the end of regulation. But no idea who gets it.
And I was wrong. W&L wins 3-2. Generals might have cleared one off the line with less than a minute to go, but since the camera person forgot the job, I have no idea.
Seriously, somebody needs to talk to whoever is doing that. FFS. The CNU bench and fans went ABSOLUTELY ballistic during (again, I guess?) a scramble in the box in the final 30 seconds. Coach got a card after the game for really hammering the ref on (again, I guess?) a foul in the box?
I don't know. One of the CNU coaches got a yellow with a few minutes to play also. They were really riding the ref, and I'm not sure why as their guys were getting most of the benefit of the doubt calls, but I guess when you are desperate everything looks like it needs calling. But I have no idea what happened in the 2 last minute scrums since the camera never panned to the action and just stuck on where the long throw came from. Bummer to not know...
Happy the Generals advanced though!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Tufts-WC still level in the 90th minute. Even match, not much in the way of great scoring opportunities. WC had an IDK in the area in the 85th minute but missed a shot at the upper left. At halftime, I decided to go to the match (I can be at Bello in 10 minutes), but the parking lot was full, and by the time I got home, I'd missed the first 10 minutes of the second half--which featured both of the goals--so I'm not sure what happened there.
Scroll back up and we gave a quick description. Both goals came off nice crosses that switched the point of attack and finished clinically on both ends.
OT and as has been noted, this is a very even game. Without a real rooting interest, I'd actually give the edge to the Shoreman in the second half.
Oh, and the call in the box was an indirect kick for basically laying on the ball/playing it while prone.
Edit - You know what?? I think he might actually have meant to do that?? He had a ton of time, picked his head up and.. I dunno... That might have been on purpose and if so... WOW.
And, 2 minutes in Cano luck-boxes his way into a cross--> goal into the far corner/side net. That's truly an unlucky, dagger of a goal.
Thanks for the update. They replayed the goals about 30 seconds after my earlier post, so I saw them a smidge too late.
And yes, I think that winning shot was on purpose. There was no one there to cross it to. So I assume it was a shot, and perfectly placed.
There was a player in the middle of the six. It was an overhit cross. Dangerous ball but an overhit cross
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 03:11:11 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Tufts-WC still level in the 90th minute. Even match, not much in the way of great scoring opportunities. WC had an IDK in the area in the 85th minute but missed a shot at the upper left. At halftime, I decided to go to the match (I can be at Bello in 10 minutes), but the parking lot was full, and by the time I got home, I'd missed the first 10 minutes of the second half--which featured both of the goals--so I'm not sure what happened there.
Scroll back up and we gave a quick description. Both goals came off nice crosses that switched the point of attack and finished clinically on both ends.
OT and as has been noted, this is a very even game. Without a real rooting interest, I'd actually give the edge to the Shoreman in the second half.
Oh, and the call in the box was an indirect kick for basically laying on the ball/playing it while prone.
Edit - You know what?? I think he might actually have meant to do that?? He had a ton of time, picked his head up and.. I dunno... That might have been on purpose and if so... WOW.
And, 2 minutes in Cano luck-boxes his way into a cross--> goal into the far corner/side net. That's truly an unlucky, dagger of a goal.
Thanks for the update. They replayed the goals about 30 seconds after my earlier post, so I saw them a smidge too late.
And yes, I think that winning shot was on purpose. There was no one there to cross it to. So I assume it was a shot, and perfectly placed.
Watching it live, I thought he was playing the guy sitting about 8 yards out on the back post. But watching the replay, the way he picks his head up, and knowing his overall quality as a player... Agreed.
And Midd goes up 2-1 with 17 minutes left.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 03:11:11 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Tufts-WC still level in the 90th minute. Even match, not much in the way of great scoring opportunities. WC had an IDK in the area in the 85th minute but missed a shot at the upper left. At halftime, I decided to go to the match (I can be at Bello in 10 minutes), but the parking lot was full, and by the time I got home, I'd missed the first 10 minutes of the second half--which featured both of the goals--so I'm not sure what happened there.
Scroll back up and we gave a quick description. Both goals came off nice crosses that switched the point of attack and finished clinically on both ends.
OT and as has been noted, this is a very even game. Without a real rooting interest, I'd actually give the edge to the Shoreman in the second half.
Oh, and the call in the box was an indirect kick for basically laying on the ball/playing it while prone.
Edit - You know what?? I think he might actually have meant to do that?? He had a ton of time, picked his head up and.. I dunno... That might have been on purpose and if so... WOW.
And, 2 minutes in Cano luck-boxes his way into a cross--> goal into the far corner/side net. That's truly an unlucky, dagger of a goal.
Thanks for the update. They replayed the goals about 30 seconds after my earlier post, so I saw them a smidge too late.
And yes, I think that winning shot was on purpose. There was no one there to cross it to. So I assume it was a shot, and perfectly placed.
Watching it live, I thought he was playing the guy sitting about 8 yards out on the back post. But watching the replay, the way he picks his head up, and knowing his overall quality as a player... Agreed.
Agreed that WC seemed to be the better side--albeit by a small margin--in the second half. This makes it two games in a row in which the Jumbos advanced in OT in games in which they were arguably outplayed. That's a dangerous way to live.
I will say this, if I have ANY bias it's that Washington College has really struggled to break out in the Centennial over the years. So I had trouble evaluating them objectively. But, man, I was REALLY impressed with them today. And not just for their gritty play and overall gumption... I enjoyed the skill they displayed in getting forward. A lot of nice touches, short passes, and then releasing into the corner or switching the point of attack for dangerous chances. j
Tufts is Tufts and their experience showed at the end. But they had all they bargained for and more with that game today.
Tufts always lives dangerously and they always win.
If Midd sees this game out that is a huge, tough, impressive win, esp going down 1-0 in literally last 30 secs of 1st half. Midd looks like the vintage version of Amherst. Physically huge team and athletic. I will favor Midd over Amherst although very possible GG will carry Amherst by himself. Do not understand why Reid for Midd isn't more effective.
Wow. Hanover put a shot on goal and diving Messiah keeper coughs up a rebound. Ball pinballs around eventually lands on a guys foot a few yards off the goal line. He looks offside, but, no MacDonald for Messiah is standing next to his goalie... no offsides.
1-0 HC very early in the game. Still, wow.
Apropos of nothing, I think Mike Pence went to Hanover.
Messiah is playing Hanover straight up 7 v 9 in Hanover's end. The scoreboard is what it is, but you see Messiah just moving the ball, creating half chances, and then Hanover clears toward their one striker and you realize Messiah has 3 more back there to cover.
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 04:19:17 PM
Messiah is playing Hanover straight up 7 v 9 in Hanover's end. The scoreboard is what it is, but you see Messiah just moving the ball, creating half chances, and then Hanover clears toward their one striker and you realize Messiah has 3 more back there to cover.
Yeah, this has a feeling of inevitability.
And less than 2 minutes after this exchange, Messiah level on a header-->header-->crossbar-->header off of a cornerkick.
So Chicago takes an early lead on NPU in the Windy City Championship. I would imagine that the Maroons are hoping for better ARs than they got in 2017.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 20, 2021, 04:20:26 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 20, 2021, 04:19:17 PM
Messiah is playing Hanover straight up 7 v 9 in Hanover's end. The scoreboard is what it is, but you see Messiah just moving the ball, creating half chances, and then Hanover clears toward their one striker and you realize Messiah has 3 more back there to cover.
Yeah, this has a feeling of inevitability.
And there it is. Failed corner clearance, Messiah got 2 headers at it before it goes in. 1-1 14 minutes to go in the first half.
Looks like we will have 2 NESCAC teams in final 4 regardless. Then Chicago and Messiah or W&L. Should be a good time in Greensboro
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2021, 04:12:57 PM
Apropos of nothing, I think Mike Pence went to Hanover.
Mike Pence and Woody Harrelson were at Hanover at the same time
Chicago 2
North Park 0
The Maroons had NPU on the back foot from jump street, and the Vikings were never really able to make a game of it. I swear that Chicago got a quarter-step quicker than they looked in their regular-season finale against Wash U, and NPU never found the extra gear it needed to respond.
A round of eight exit shouldn't feel like such a disappointment, but it does. That's in large part because two of the greatest players to ever don a North Park kit, Gustav Ericsson and Peder Olsen, played their final game today. They were a big piece of the puzzle as freshmen when NPU went all the way to the national championship game. They helped set the bar high. It will be up to the eight returning starters in 2022 to match and maintain that standard -- and hopefully surpass it.
Congrats to Chicago and Chicago faithful on the site. Tremendous accomplishment and a very legit shot to win it all. Chicago reached the Final 4 with no favors...beating a then 18-1-2 Webster, a very legit Otterbein in the snow at Otterbein, Calvin which almost never loses in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 and themselves had knocked off UR and OWU, and today North Park which was my sleeper pick among all the legit contenders to win the title. After watching a bunch of them on the field multiple times I was surprised to see how many underclassmen and especially freshmen NP played major roles. I know NP tends to have older players but when you see freshmen next to so many of those names it's a bit stunning. NP no doubt will be among the top teams in the country again next year and likely thereafter. And if he already wasn't in the running for NPOY, please add Griffin Wada, probably the best CB I've seen all year who assisted on both Maroon goals today.
And what more can be said about the NESCAC? Four teams in the Elite 8. When the brackets came out I said I liked Middlebury's chances to get to the Final 4. One game to go against a well known rival. A tough task on Amherst's home pitch but I like the Panthers' chances and I'd be very confident if Reid can rise to the challenge and meet the moment. St Louis was fantastic and imo the difference to advance.
Shout out to John Carroll. Gave Middlebury all they could handle. Turrittin has had a great career and is a class act. The yellow card given to him in the 1st half was a joke...probably not even a foul but certainly not a card...and hopefully that didn't inhibit his play as it happened in first 25 or so minutes. Don't know if he has a year of eligibility left or not although seems like he's been at JCU forever.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 20, 2021, 07:51:50 PM
Congrats to Chicago and Chicago faithful on the site. Tremendous accomplishment and a very legit shot to win it all. Chicago reached the Final 4 with no favors...beating a then 18-1-2 Webster, a very legit Otterbein in the snow at Otterbein, Calvin which almost never loses in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 and themselves had knocked off UR and OWU, and today North Park which was my sleeper pick among all the legit contenders to win the title. After watching a bunch of them on the field multiple times I was surprised to see how many underclassmen and especially freshmen NP played major roles. I know NP tends to have older players but when you see freshmen next to so many of those names it's a bit stunning. NP no doubt will be among the top teams in the country again next year and likely thereafter. And if he already wasn't in the running for NPOY, please add Griffin Wada, probably the best CB I've seen all year who assisted on both Maroon goals today.
Both sides today were very young in experience which bodes very well for next year. Of the 17 Maroons who played today, 9 of them had never played a collegiate game until Sept. 1 this year. Over half of UChicago's roster was new to competition this season. The fact they gelled this quickly and were able to reach the Final Four is very impressive.
Agree wholeheartedly on Wada. He's a 6-foot-5 monster in the back who wins every. single. header. He can pick your pocket 1v1 easily. Gillespie and Wada are a wall for one of the best defenses in the nation, and their athleticism and versatility are probably the biggest reason for UChicago's success this year.
Well the NESCAC post season continues today.
Tufts and Conn College meet for their rubber match, with both teams having won a game 2-0. Both prior games were at Conn, this one is hosted by Tufts. Weather for 3p.m. at Tufts is forecast to be about 50 degrees, mostly cloudy with no precipitation, winds from the south at about 10 mph.
Amherst and Middlebury meet for the second time, with Amherst winning the first at Middlebury 1-0. Amherst plays host for the second and final match. Weather for 1p.m. at Amherst is forecast to be 52 degrees, partly cloudy, no precipitation, winds from the south at about 8 mph.
In non-NESCAC post season news:
W&L hosts Messiah in the 10th meeting all time between the programs. Messiah holds a 7-3 edge, but the Generals will be the host this afternoon. These two teams last faced off in regular season games in 2015 and 2016, with Messiah sweeping both, 1-0 at home in the first and taking it to the Generals on the road 4-0 in the latter.
Messiah holds a 4 game winning streak in the series, stretching back to a 2-1 W&L road win in 1986. Home and homes were a regular schedule feature between these teams in the 80s, with the first in Lexington in 1981 and played annually switching hosting duties until 1988. They have never met in the post-season. ** Info courtesy of the W&L sports information website ***
Today's game kicks off at 3p.m. EST and the weather looks reasonable. 1% chance of precipitation, wind SSW at 5 mph, and in the mid to upper 40s at Watt Field. Sunset at 5:02 p.m., so the lights may or may not be needed but probably will come on toward the end.
Finally, in two teams that wanted to get it over with... Chicago defeated North Park 2-0 yesterday at Chicago.
So our Final Four will feature 2 NESCACs, the upstart W&L or traditional Messiah, and the consistently dangerous Chicago. Looks like it will be a good day for soccer today!
Quote from: jknezek on November 21, 2021, 11:20:02 AM
Finally, in two teams that wanted to get it over with... Chicago defeated North Park 2-0 yesterday at Chicago.
More like Calvin wanted to get it over with, and the two Windy City schools and St. Olaf went along for the ride. ;)
Wow. What a goal from Giammatti.
If anyone wants to better understand implicit, unconscious, systemic racial bias where absolutely no ill will is intended but is clear as day....listen to this announcer struggle with the two #23s.
I have the game on mute to keep the peace with my wife. :-)
Midd sure is coming on strong here with abt 20 mins left.
A bit of shambolic defending from the Camels on a long throw, but Cano (yesterday's chip goal extraordinaire) has work to do to spin and finish with a laser over the keeper's head.
1-0 Tufts 25 mins left in 1H
And the Generals get the first. A beautiful team effort. A solid run, couple beautiful passes and Adrian Zimmerman is now the D3 record holder for goals in a single tournament. A fantastic goal slightly against the run of play.
Halftime. Generals up 1-0. Absorbing pressure well. Messiah has the possession but not much more than a few half chances. Generals look dangerous any time they get space or a one on one in Messiah's half, but Messiah's possession and ball movement... you just can feel their belief that one goal is nothing and their system will pay off. Every time they work those angles and runs. Generals have dealt with it well, but a lot of soccer to go.
And the Generals get a second on a great individual effort. Justa screamer from 22 yds out. Messiah left too much room and the Generals make them pay. 2-0
The Tufts-Camels game is BONKERS. I was out on a walk with Tufts up 1-0 in the first. It is now 3-2 CC with most of the second half still to go.
And as I was scrolling through highlights, Conn scores again! 4-2.
Two heavyweights are definitely on the ropes here.
And the ref fails to play advantage and basically takes a goal off the board for Conn. Should be 5-2 and game over.
Huh. Soccer Gods love the Camels today. VERY long clearance from the Conn keeper sends two Camels on one Jumbo and they are clinical with one pass, one touch and a goal. This Shuma kid has two goals on the day and has been a terror all game against the Tufts backline.
Gonna take a miracle for Tufts. About 20 mins left, 5-2.
I've been impressed by the Tufts broadcasters all weekend. Are they students? If so, that impresses me even more.
What's the last time one could say this: Messiah and Tufts both down by 2 goals in the second half of tournament games. Who knew?
And there you go. Tufts had been hammering down on the Camels back line and it results in a get back.
5-3 with about 20 to go.
HOLY BONKERS BATMAN!!
Tufts with a BANGER to bring it to 5-4. Hold on to your hats sportsfans!!!
5-4
Now it's 5-4, Camels.
This is crazy.
W&L just PK'ed itself into a 3-0 lead with 11 and a half to go.
3-0. Zimmerman crushes an earned penalty kick. 11:39 to play.
These games are absolutely nuts
And the Generals finally have a defensive breakdown that allows Messiah a pk goal. 3-1 9:30 to go.
And Messiah blows an amazing chance to make it a 1 goal game. Getting a bit desperate as Messiah is just killing it down their right side.
Messiah just had an odd-man rush into the box result in a kick over the frame with six minutes to go.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 04:50:25 PM
Messiah just had an odd-man rush into the box result in a kick over the frame with six minutes to go.
Thought McDonald should've shot that one. Should be 3-2, really.
McDonald, I think has become a late game nightmare for the Generals. He has another gear right now and Generals are struggling
As much as I like these announcers in Beantown, one just let slip the statement, "Conn College is trying to end Tufts' season prematurely," reminding me why I'm rooting for the Camels.
Congratulations to W&L for a very impressive, fairly officiated victory over Messiah. They are the best team I have seen this season.
... aaand W&L goes through. 3-1 final in VA. Generals are Greensboro-bound.
And the Generals hold on for a deserved 3-1 win and their first trip to the Final Four! Huge breakthrough win against a marquee program. The first 2 goals were well taken. The PK on both ends was correct. Messiah played with possession but W&L took their chances well and defended beautifully until the last 10 minutes. Couple chances given up as Messiah pushed everything forward, but overall a worthy win.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
As much as I like these announcers in Beantown, one just let slip the statement, "Conn College is trying to end Tufts' season prematurely," reminding me why I'm rooting for the Camels.
Conn is doing their best to make the world safe for democracy. :o
WOW...I have to admit that Conn. winning at home in the regular season vs. Tufts but then losing at home by the same margin in the NESCAC final made me question the Camels' mentality. After coming down from one goal twice against Tufts, they led by three, and when it looked like they might implode, they held it together. Fair enough, Camels, you proved me wrong.
It'll be camels and not elephants in Greensboro two weeks from now.
Tufts finally flirted with disaster one time too many.
Wow. Just... Crazy couple of games this afternoon, especially up in Boston. That was one of the most entertaining games I've watched in years.
The king is dead...Long live the king.
Crazy that two Champions and 15 championships between them got ousted within 2 minutes.
This is why we love the game.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 05:01:42 PM
It'll be camels and not elephants in Greensboro two weeks from now.
Tufts finally flirted with disaster one time too many.
But... We will have Mammoths!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 05:01:42 PM
Tufts finally flirted with disaster one time too many.
Yes. You can get away with it a number of times – thinking back to Tufts 2016 grinding their way to the title – but you are playing against the odds if you think you'll get away with it every time. I felt they were relying a lot on Lauta this year and, while a top goalkeeper is important for any side that wants to be successful to have, you can't expect him to bail you out all the time. Ultimately, if you concede 5 goals, you can't expect to win the game.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
As much as I like these announcers in Beantown, one just let slip the statement, "Conn College is trying to end Tufts' season prematurely," reminding me why I'm rooting for the Camels.
I know you are giving them props, and this is a very funny callout...
I just want to underscore how great a job these guys did, overall. The PbP guy showed as much enthusiasm in his voice for Camel goals/chances as he did for Tufts and they were both very even-keeled when it came to calling out fouls for both teams. That is really rare for "home town" announcing crews, even at the professional level.
Kudos to them. And the overall production is pretty solid. Some issues with the camera being low-to-the-field so stuff on the far side is hard to see. But what can you do.
(I also think they got a new camera person down in W&L. A lot less stationary camera with the ball not on the screen.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 21, 2021, 05:03:29 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 05:01:42 PM
It'll be camels and not elephants in Greensboro two weeks from now.
Tufts finally flirted with disaster one time too many.
But... We will have Mammoths!
Good point. Same taxonomic family,
very different fanbases. ;)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 21, 2021, 05:07:44 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
As much as I like these announcers in Beantown, one just let slip the statement, "Conn College is trying to end Tufts' season prematurely," reminding me why I'm rooting for the Camels.
I know you are giving them props, and this is a very funny callout...
I just want to underscore how great a job these guys did, overall. The PbP guy showed as much enthusiasm in his voice for Camel goals/chances as he did for Tufts and they were both very even-keeled when it came to calling out fouls for both teams. That is really rare for "home town" announcing crews, even at the professional level.
Yep. That's one of the reasons why I liked them: they were fair and honest, which, to me, is job #1 as a broadcaster. I was impressed with their expertise, and I liked their enthusiasm, but even if you're a homer you should be calling it like it is and giving credit (or blame) where credit (or blame) is due regardless of the kit colors of the player involved.
Even though I called them out for it, I don't really blame them for the "prematurely" comment. I don't think that it was made out of arrogance. It's very understandable for a student who has basically seen his school's soccer team function as a Walnut & Bronze trophy factory throughout his student days. I remember that I had the same mentality vis-a-vis basketball when I was a North Park student back in the days when the Vikings cut down the nets five times in ten seasons. You don't
mean to come off as entitled, you just get used to what you've experienced as a student fan.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 21, 2021, 05:07:44 PM
Kudos to them. And the overall production is pretty solid. Some issues with the camera being low-to-the-field so stuff on the far side is hard to see. But what can you do.
Agreed. Low-angle games can be hard to watch. But at least they have replay ... I can envy them that. ;)
I also found the Tufts announcers to be a breath of fresh air. Did a way better job than I ever could have at that age, particularly at staying impartial. I liked the Messiah guys last week, but they were both definitely homers, although they did give credit to Kenyon where it was due. The Tufts guys, though, at least seemed to try to greet Camels goals with enthusiasm, and as Hopkins pointed out that's pretty rare even at professional levels for an in-house TV crew.
Congrats to Conn Coll and W&L and all their fans. Very happy for you.
Crazy game in Medford, and impressed that Conn came back twice in the first half. Most teams don't recover from big mistakes and giving up early goals against Tufts. Definitely felt they were back in it when they leveled at 1-1 but doubted they could win after going down 2-1. That goal just before the half was big and really changed the dynamic. I thought Burk made a huge mistake subbing some of his key defenders at 4-2 or 5-2. Even at 5-2 there was a ton of time and while things looked grim for Tufts you just knew they would fight to the end. Went out like a champion. They are such a physical, deep, talented team, and I doubt they would have lost in Greensboro. They make all D3 teams look like....well, D3. What a massive win for the Conn Coll program, and I bet more than a few of us were sure they were gonna lose 6-5. I expect Conn and W&L to be a very even game, and both will be coming in sky-high. If I had to pick today I'd probably guess Conn wins in OT.
I thought W&L looked in control from the jump and getting a goal first and early was obviously helpful. Messiah had a lot of possession and certainly amped up the pressure in the last 25-30 minutes but never felt they were going to win that game. W&L rose to the occasion and ultimately handled going through most of the season at #1. I remember just 2-3 weeks ago talking about whether the loss to Randolph might be good for them. Who knows, but just huge for the W&L program as well.
Great to have some new blood at the Final 4. Don't know if this will make any sense but imo Amherst is the weakest of the four teams left but the favorite to win. That said, definitely wide open and won't be surprised by any of the four taking the title. And I thought Amherst did give a big boost to their awful reputation from what I could see. I mean, Gabe Gitler, pipe down. You may be a GG but you're no GG. I do wonder if the real GG will be ready in a couple of weeks. He went out early in the 2nd and again about 10 minutes after coming back in with probably almost 30 minutes left and he must be hurt, and Okrogheye also went out and never returned with what looked like a hamstring. Disappointed that Middlebury didn't get through. Really, really good team and I felt deserved a little better, but again gave up a goal right before the half.
I was, admittedly, more focused on the Tufts-Camels game, but I don't know if I agree that W&L had control of that game. Just about everytime I tuned-in during the second half I saw Messiah guys lining up their defender, taking them on and setting up increasingly dangerous chances. The PK was correct for the Generals, but seriously unfortunate in terms of Messiah's comeback bid. And even with that, the game should've been 3-2 with 10 minutes left. And as was mentioned during the game, McDonald was terrorizing the General's backline for at least the last 15-20 minutes.
With that said, hoo boy... finish your chances in these games and you absolutely control your destiny. This was a very different version of the W&L team that we all called out after the Randolph match. More decisive with the ball at their feet, and their danger players showed up today, big time. Didn't see much of that at all in the October matches.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 21, 2021, 06:19:11 PM
I was, admittedly, more focused on the Tufts-Camels game, but I don't know if I agree that W&L had control of that game. Just about everytime I tuned-in during the second half I saw Messiah guys lining up their defender, taking them on and setting up increasingly dangerous chances. The PK was correct for the Generals, but seriously unfortunate in terms of Messiah's comeback bid. And even with that, the game should've been 3-2 with 10 minutes left. And as was mentioned during the game, McDonald was terrorizing the General's backline for at least the last 15-20 minutes.
With that said, hoo boy... finish your chances in these games and you absolutely control your destiny. This was a very different version of the W&L team that we all called out after the Randolph match. More decisive with the ball at their feet, and their danger players showed up today, big time. Didn't see much of that at all in the October matches.
Yeah, maybe I used the wrong words. I never felt like W&L was gonna lose and the Conn game got to a point where I thought Conn probably was gonna lose. Now admittedly I watched more of the 1st half when W&L had more of the play and I also was only half-watching the 2nd half because once the Conn-Tufts game was 5-3 I DID think Conn would not hold on. I mean W&L was up 3-0 with 10 minutes left. Could have gotten to 3-2 but didn't whereas Conn-Tufts did get to 5-4, so W&L never had less than a 2 goal lead most of 2nd half. And I wonder if part of the reason McDonald didn't shoot when everyone thinks he should have was because he was playing on the right instead of his usual left...which of course doesn't putting on the right wasn't a smart move strategically overall.
I don't think I'd say the Generals controlled the game, but I think they were comfortable with the role they were playing. They definitely had stretches with control, the first 10-15 minutes of each half come to mind, but Messiah definitely had more possession. However, until the last 15 minutes, once the Generals were up 3-0 and trying to ride out the game, Messiah didn't have too many good opportunities. Possession wide, sure. Possession 30-40 yards out, yes. But possession in critical areas with space? Not much until the end.
The Generals looked dangerous 1 on 1 a lot. They consistently beat their defenders and found space to create a few chances.
The last 10 minutes definitely got squirrelly. Macdonald made 4 or 5 great runs and should have at least tried to finish the one.
Thanks gents, good insight. Like I said, I was only spot-checking the game so I'll pipe down. :-)
What a fun afternoon of soccer!
Once we take a breath, it's going to be fun looking at these match-ups in Greensboro.
Tufts v. Connecticut College. I consider myself a neutral but have enjoyed watching Tufts over the years and think Shapiro was a great coach and great recruiter for the program. I don't post much, but I was in town and at the game so here are my thoughts. Both teams seemed to line up in 3-4-3 or some variation thereof. Both teams have athletic players who are technical. Evenly matched player for player, but I would give the edge to Tufts. Not including the last 15 minutes when they were holding on for dear life, Connecticut College played the ball at their feet and had great movement on and off the ball. For some reason, Tufts primarily played vertically bypassing the midfield. In the second half I counted 23 long balls from the Tufts defensive line. Some of these balls put Connecticut College under pressure but it was not pretty and most of the passes just resulted in Conn regaining possession. I didn't keep count of long balls in the first half but it was the same approach. In recent years, Tufts has been a team that can and does play with the ball at their feet with the ability to go long to keep opponents honest, but not today. Maybe the Tufts coach had determined that playing vertically was the best approach, but I think it deprived Tufts the opportunity to dominate and control the pace of the game. Tufts just kept giving the ball back to Conn. In the first half Conn Defender Number 24 misjudged a long ball and stopped it with his hand and was clearly intentional. The crowd was crying for a red but I think the ref got it right because while the Tufts forward had a goal scoring opportunity it was not a clear goal scoring opportunity. The Tufts player would have had a lot of work to do to bring the ball down and score as Conn defenders were closing in on him. In the second half a Conn midfielder dragged a Tufts man down to prevent a fast break. It was a professional foul that deserved the yellow but not the red car the crowd was screaming for. The last 20 minutes were exciting. It felt like the 5th and tying goal was going to come, but Tufts ran out of time. I was happy to see Tufts fight to the end. Connecticut College deserved the win and have as good of a chance as anyone to win it all.
You have to see Tufts in person to appreciate just how big, strong, and fast they are. Aroh and Clivio are huge men...and Clivio has at least 2 years left. They look like a D1 team. Conn was the right opponent to knock Tufts out because they have played them so many times in past two (three) years...and compared to 2019 I think Conn believed they could win. Bu I don't think anyone for either side expected the wild one they played today.
Quote from: blooter442 on November 21, 2021, 05:28:51 PM
I also found the Tufts announcers to be a breath of fresh air. Did a way better job than I ever could have at that age, particularly at staying impartial. I liked the Messiah guys last week, but they were both definitely homers, although they did give credit to Kenyon where it was due. The Tufts guys, though, at least seemed to try to greet Camels goals with enthusiasm, and as Hopkins pointed out that's pretty rare even at professional levels for an in-house TV crew.
I have to agree...I very rarely like the announcers in these games, as they are volunteers, but these lads were good. What a game... Congrats to the Camels...
One thing no one has talked about is W&L's Adrian Zimmerman breaking the record for most goals scored in an ncaa d3 tournament. He's up to 10 so far, having scored "only" 6 all season. What a time to catch fire!
(And no, he is not my son :D )
Quote from: Another Mom on November 22, 2021, 11:10:24 AM
One thing no one has talked about is W&L's Adrian Zimmerman breaking the record for most goals scored in an ncaa d3 tournament. He's up to 10 so far, having scored "only" 6 all season. What a time to catch fire!
(And no, he is not my son :D )
Thanks for sharing that info. I wanted to ask but seemed impolite (the part about your son).
A handful of years ago, there was a guy, actually a super sub who iirc hadn't really played all year and scored in a series of games consecutively to propel his team I think to the Final 4. St Thomas maybe?
And congrats on W&L. Good luck in Greensboro!
Yup...Tony Kuplic....
From a 2016 St Thomas game recap...from game St Thomas trailed 2-0 to Redlands maybe in Elite 8 and Kuplic got the GW in OT....
Super Sub
Kuplic could be viewed as an unlikely hero. The 6-foot-3 senior was cut from the team as a freshman but decided to give soccer one more try this fall. He made the team during open tryouts but never started or scored and played in only eight games during the regular season.
Then in an opening-round playoff game Nov. 12 against St. Scholastica, he scored the tying goal with 2:49 remaining in regulation and headed in the game winner with 1:57 left in the second overtime. The next day, he scored the second goal in the Tommies' 2-0 win over Luther.
He has taken just eight career shots on goal, with five finding the back of the net for goals.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 22, 2021, 11:10:24 AM
One thing no one has talked about is W&L's Adrian Zimmerman breaking the record for most goals scored in an ncaa d3 tournament. He's up to 10 so far, having scored "only" 6 all season. What a time to catch fire!
(And no, he is not my son :D )
Wow. That's 10 goals in 4 games v. high-level competition and 10 out of the team's 14 goals during that stretch. Very impressive.
Congrats to bzhag098 - As far as I can tell, that's the only entry in the nearly 70 entries to have picked all of the Final Four in their brackets. (Interesting, because that bracket had a LOT wrong, until they absolutely nailed it over this last weekend.)
Well obviously disappointed with yesterday's result but super proud of the Tufts team for their effort this year and yesterday. All year they have had to battle through adversity and still put together one of the best seasons in program history winning the NESCAC title and only dropping two games all year. Incredibly proud of the effort yesterday. Coming back from 5-2 down to make it a game speaks to a level of character that will serve them well long after they finish playing. And finally i'm proud for how they handled defeat, especially at the hands of a NESCAC rival... something other programs weren't able to pull off yesterday.
Congratulations to Conn, Coach Burke has taken the program to a new level and they deserve their trip to the final four.
Go Generals and Maroon.
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
Just a comment, NCAA needs to institute stricter guidelines for yellow and red cards when a coach can make 12 twelve substitutions in a period!
Not sure what red and yellow cards have to do with substitutions. The reason the sub rule is the way it is is because of many D3 institutions who want to be able to play a lot of people. Unless there is a major change of heart by D3 schools, the rule will not change.
Currently yellow cards are almost meaningless from a team's point of view,it does not have the same effect as in a league with two ,or even five subs and this in the long run limits the growth in players abilities.
Quote from: camosfan on November 22, 2021, 09:49:52 PM
Currently yellow cards are almost meaningless from a team's point of view,it does not have the same effect as in a league with two ,or even five subs and this in the long run limits the growth in players abilities.
Not clear at all to me at least what you'r talking about. If teams got more cards then more players would be sent off? And then the game would be better with less players and less substitutions? Or you want more coaches to get yellows and reds?
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
Most of the best teams substitute liberally. And many of those subs are core parts of the team and critical to winning....not to mention that their growth as players has some value as well.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
Quote from: jknezek on November 21, 2021, 03:26:00 PM
And the Generals get the first. A beautiful team effort. A solid run, couple beautiful passes and Adrian Zimmerman is now the D3 record holder for goals in a single tournament. A fantastic goal slightly against the run of play.
Yup someone finally beat Brad Murray's 8 Goals in an NCAA Tournament in 1995. 26 years he held that but records are meant to be broken. Congrats to Zimmerman who knotted another and now has 10 goals with maybe 2 games remaining. I think it is safe to say he will have this record for at least another 25 years.
Question...For the NCAA Semi's and Final will those be available all weekend on NCAA.com or will you have to catch the games live?
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
I agree that Amherst was probably the instigator and this can be added to a long list of such incidents.But it's obviously not a good look for either program. I have a lot of respect for Midd and their coaches but you can't let that happen at the end of the game. You almost have to expect that to happen coming in and be prepared not to engage. I know it's obviously a thousand times easier said than done.
I also was not at the game and am just going off of what could be seen on screen so I'm sure people there can provide a better perspective.
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
I agree that Amherst was probably the instigator and this can be added to a long list of such incidents.But it's obviously not a good look for either program. I have a lot of respect for Midd and their coaches but you can't let that happen at the end of the game. You almost have to expect that to happen coming in and be prepared not to engage. I know it's obviously a thousand times easier said than done.
I also was not at the game and am just going off of what could be seen on screen so I'm sure people there can provide a better perspective.
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Here's the thing... Amherst has been doing this a long time. Sometimes you have to take the bully and show them the consequences. Clearly the NESCAC has little interest in doing it, and the refs seem happy to take the constant whining and ignore the little cheap shots.
I'm not sure why, but eventually it's ok by me to haul back and punch the bully in the nose... so long as you are willing to accept the consequences on the other side. After the season, especially if you are an outgoing senior who has put up with them for 4 years... I might have been willing to accept whatever happens to land a few licks on a taunting player.
I know, society frowns on this. We are too enlightened or some such b.s. But if the grownups aren't going to reign it in... well they shouldn't be surprised at the results.
I think what society frowns on or doesn't frown on often is very unclear and can be a moving target, and in our world of hypocrisy, double standards, whataboutism, and a culture where 'truth' no longer has any real basis and depends so heavily on which channel you watch.....well, you get the point...and other than that semi-gratuitous riff I basically agree with @jkenezek.
The problem here, without knowing all the details of the in-game vibe and aftermaths of both games, is the attempt to compare. Based on what we've read here one might conclude that Conn didn't engage in the same behavior as a victor as Amherst did, so Tufts' alleged very fine, mature behavior against Conn (if that's even true) can't by some weird associative property be used to suggest that Tufts would have responded better to Amherst than Midd did.
Also wondering if there is just a very, very mild suggestion that some losses are harder to absorb and therefore some extra credit is in order if a team and its fans believe a loss is unique and/or implausible compared to all the other teams and fans that have to deal with losses. When you are absolutely certain you're going to win the national title or get to the Final 4, do you get more kudos for handling that trauma? And where when the entitlement and sense of superiority are so strong that a loss in the 1st or 2nd round is unfathomable and must be externally justified with the ability to be magnanimous increasing a little each round so that an Elite 8 or NCAA semi defeat are a bit easier to handle with more grace.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Which brings me to something that's been rattling around in my (alleged) mind that I would love to hear some comments on. If you accept that Division 3 soccer is, at its core, an activity that colleges offer to enhance the experience, learning and maturation of their students and not a stepping stone to a career playing professional soccer, what do the institutions owe to their 'student athletes' in terms of tactical, technical and ethical instructions? Should a program recruit for and coach a style of play that mimics great football at the highest level, or should they recruit and coach to win at the D3 level? Turns out that the best D3 teams employ both philosophies (more on that in a moment), because both philosophies can win nantional titles.
To wit: this year's final four (buckle up, I'm about to make wild generalizations about your favorite team which are unfair, but deal with it!) are comprised of two teams that play with possession and control, trying to break down lines with ball movement and creativity, and two teams that use size, speed, athleticism and physical aggression to win. At a higher level of play, the blast-in-the-box and smash it home is much less effective, but it turns out that at the D3 level, it's good enough to win about half of the national titles over the past, say, 20 years.
So the question is: should D3 soccer programs try to play 'good football', or should they try to win at any cost.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 23, 2021, 10:00:00 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Which brings me to something that's been rattling around in my (alleged) mind that I would love to hear some comments on. If you accept that Division 3 soccer is, at its core, an activity that colleges offer to enhance the experience, learning and maturation of their students and not a stepping stone to a career playing professional soccer, what do the institutions owe to their 'student athletes' in terms of tactical, technical and ethical instructions? Should a program recruit for and coach a style of play that mimics great football at the highest level, or should they recruit and coach to win at the D3 level? Turns out that the best D3 teams employ both philosophies (more on that in a moment), because both philosophies can win nantional titles.
To wit: this year's final four (buckle up, I'm about to make wild generalizations about your favorite team which are unfair, but deal with it!) are comprised of two teams that play with possession and control, trying to break down lines with ball movement and creativity, and two teams that use size, speed, athleticism and physical aggression to win. At a higher level of play, the blast-in-the-box and smash it home is much less effective, but it turns out that at the D3 level, it's good enough to win about half of the national titles over the past, say, 20 years.
So the question is: should D3 soccer programs try to play 'good football', or should they try to win at any cost.
The correlation you're trying to make between playing the beautiful game beautifully and ethics seems more than a little strained. In other words, the choice as you pose it doesn't follow. A kick and run team might not have a win at any cost attitude and their morals might be impeccable.
BTW, who is the second athleticism and physical aggression team in the Final 4?
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 23, 2021, 10:00:00 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Which brings me to something that's been rattling around in my (alleged) mind that I would love to hear some comments on. If you accept that Division 3 soccer is, at its core, an activity that colleges offer to enhance the experience, learning and maturation of their students and not a stepping stone to a career playing professional soccer, what do the institutions owe to their 'student athletes' in terms of tactical, technical and ethical instructions? Should a program recruit for and coach a style of play that mimics great football at the highest level, or should they recruit and coach to win at the D3 level? Turns out that the best D3 teams employ both philosophies (more on that in a moment), because both philosophies can win nantional titles.
To wit: this year's final four (buckle up, I'm about to make wild generalizations about your favorite team which are unfair, but deal with it!) are comprised of two teams that play with possession and control, trying to break down lines with ball movement and creativity, and two teams that use size, speed, athleticism and physical aggression to win. At a higher level of play, the blast-in-the-box and smash it home is much less effective, but it turns out that at the D3 level, it's good enough to win about half of the national titles over the past, say, 20 years.
So the question is: should D3 soccer programs try to play 'good football', or should they try to win at any cost.
This comes back to my point ,of how unlimited substitutions allows teams to comit flagrant fouls with minimal cost.
Quote from: Centennial1 on November 23, 2021, 10:00:00 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
Which brings me to something that's been rattling around in my (alleged) mind that I would love to hear some comments on. If you accept that Division 3 soccer is, at its core, an activity that colleges offer to enhance the experience, learning and maturation of their students and not a stepping stone to a career playing professional soccer, what do the institutions owe to their 'student athletes' in terms of tactical, technical and ethical instructions? Should a program recruit for and coach a style of play that mimics great football at the highest level, or should they recruit and coach to win at the D3 level? Turns out that the best D3 teams employ both philosophies (more on that in a moment), because both philosophies can win nantional titles.
To wit: this year's final four (buckle up, I'm about to make wild generalizations about your favorite team which are unfair, but deal with it!) are comprised of two teams that play with possession and control, trying to break down lines with ball movement and creativity, and two teams that use size, speed, athleticism and physical aggression to win. At a higher level of play, the blast-in-the-box and smash it home is much less effective, but it turns out that at the D3 level, it's good enough to win about half of the national titles over the past, say, 20 years.
So the question is: should D3 soccer programs try to play 'good football', or should they try to win at any cost.
How did you reach the conclusion that the core mission of D3 has anything to do with style of play? And why should/would D3 "mimic" the highest standards of play any more so than D2 or D1? Why would there be any expectation that D3 soccer should try to emulate Barcelona...not that many of us wouldn't like that but how does that expectation follow?
And half of the champions the past 20 years? Like who? Amherst in 2015, even though they had one of the most technically gifted players in the country? Who else?
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 23, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
I agree that Amherst was probably the instigator and this can be added to a long list of such incidents.But it's obviously not a good look for either program. I have a lot of respect for Midd and their coaches but you can't let that happen at the end of the game. You almost have to expect that to happen coming in and be prepared not to engage. I know it's obviously a thousand times easier said than done.
I also was not at the game and am just going off of what could be seen on screen so I'm sure people there can provide a better perspective.
TLDR: Amherst are going to do what they do and you can't take the bait.
I agree it was not a good look. Let's be fair here though. One of these teams has a well-deserved reputation for $h!%housery and one does not. Saying that Midd should just be prepared for it and turn the other cheek is all well and good, but it sounds an awful lot like blaming the victim. Why do we accept that they should be allowed to do this on a regular basis? The powers that be in the NESCAC and the NCAA need to put a stop to this. Yes referees are at fault for not taking care of business. But the athletic department at Amherst has also failed to hold this team and its coaches accountable. The NESCAC administration is even worse. This is one of if not the best D3 soccer conferences in the country. Amherst's antics undermine their own considerable achievements on the pitch. They also damage the NESCAC brand and they make a mockery of the concept of sportsmanship.
I'm curious if any other disturbed (or not) folks like myself read game recaps....I was interested to see Dezotell, the coach at Tufts, say that his team intentionally didn't talk about adversities/injuries the team faced during the season....and then I saw Serpone of Amherst comment (sarcastically I assume) that "no one thinks we're any good but we're one of the four team still standing." What and who are they talking about? Are these references to D3soccer.com? D3boards.com? ESPN? Their school newspapers? Is Serpone pumping up his team by reading critical posts from this board...like, hey guys, I want to read you what @robertgoulet and @billyrayjimbob said about you?
LOL....robertgoulet and BillyRayJimBob are on the boards right now....I know, not soccer guys.
Interesting reading this morning. Couple of thoughts:
* I have zero skin in the game when it comes to Amherst. But it says a lot about a player/person that when they win one of the bigger games of their life, their first instinct is to (allegedly?) get in the face of an opposing player. That shouldn't be tolerated on any level, not by the ref, not by the coaches, and not by administrators. Terrible look all around.
* This is the second time this season that tactics have been brought up, and since I've been on the board, it is an annual topic of discussion. To me, this is not an ethical question. At the collegiate level (across the board) someone, usually multiple people, are being PAID to coach a soccer team to win games. Now, of course, this investment and commitment vary wildly across the divisions and even from league-to-league within those divisions. But, regardless, the point remains the same. If a coach thinks the best way for his team to win is to play high press, short-short-long, direct to goal... That's what that team is gonna do. If a coach wants to construct a team that builds out of the back and focuses heavily on possession... That's his/her prerogative.
To put a finer point on things: College (and high school) soccer is not going to alter or really effect how soccer is coached, taught, played or even watched. It's just not. The development of soccer is almost entirely down to youth academies and travel leagues, along with an effective pipeline into MLS and/or international academies. Both h.s. and college soccer are a blip. Once you get to those teams, you better have been taught soccer knowledge and you better have already developed technical prowess... Neither of those systems are built to teach the players much. There simply isn't time.
As much as I hate flagrant fouls, I really don't think the game is rife with subs coming in and injuring people. A foul is a foul. There is a cost on set pieces, officials getting irritated, etc. The biggest problem of multiple subs to me is that conditioning is less stressed and depth of roster more important, not big issues. I watched the end of the Amherst-Middlebury game, so I only could see as the camera did and heard the announcers. However, I didn't think Middlebury handled themselves that well after the game. Regardless of what the goalie or someone else said, I don't think it's a valid excuse to blame everything always on Amherst. The announcer did note a cheap shot by a previously yellow-carded M player behind the official's back right at the end of the game. Players note these things too. Also, playing a rival 3 times in important games does heightened some emotions. As a former Amherst player under Peter Gooding, I'm disappointed that the team's current reputation is so vastly different from what Peter would have tolerated.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 23, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
Interesting reading this morning. Couple of thoughts:
* I have zero skin in the game when it comes to Amherst. But it says a lot about a player/person that when they win one of the bigger games of their life, their first instinct is to (allegedly?) get in the face of an opposing player. That shouldn't be tolerated on any level, not by the ref, not by the coaches, and not by administrators. Terrible look all around.
* This is the second time this season that tactics have been brought up, and since I've been on the board, it is an annual topic of discussion. To me, this is not an ethical question. At the collegiate level (across the board) someone, usually multiple people, are being PAID to coach a soccer team to win games. Now, of course, this investment and commitment vary wildly across the divisions and even from league-to-league within those divisions. But, regardless, the point remains the same. If a coach thinks the best way for his team to win is to play high press, short-short-long, direct to goal... That's what that team is gonna do. If a coach wants to construct a team that builds out of the back and focuses heavily on possession... That's his/her prerogative.
To put a finer point on things: College (and high school) soccer is not going to alter or really effect how soccer is coached, taught, played or even watched. It's just not. The development of soccer is almost entirely down to youth academies and travel leagues, along with an effective pipeline into MLS and/or international academies. Both h.s. and college soccer are a blip. Once you get to those teams, you better have been taught soccer knowledge and you better have already developed technical prowess... Neither of those systems are built to teach the players much. There simply isn't time.
This.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 10:50:46 AM
I'm curious if any other disturbed (or not) folks like myself read game recaps....I was interested to see Dezotell, the coach at Tufts, say that his team intentionally didn't talk about adversities/injuries the team faced during the season....and then I saw Serpone of Amherst comment (sarcastically I assume) that "no one thinks we're any good but we're one of the four team still standing." What and who are they talking about? Are these references to D3soccer.com? D3boards.com? ESPN? Their school newspapers? Is Serpone pumping up his team by reading critical posts from this board...like, hey guys, I want to read you what @robertgoulet and @billyrayjimbob said about you?
Serpone can't possibly believe what he said in that quote. Your team made the national title match in 2019 and is 16-2-2 this year. No one has said they're not good. They've been a national contender for years. What a dumb thing to say.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 23, 2021, 11:33:25 AM
They've been a national contender for years. What a dumb thing to say.
He puts out quotes like that all the time, and no he definitely doesn't genuinely believe it. That said, it's classic Mourinho siege mentality — and over the years it's worked well.
Also, to be fair, I remember Jacobs of Tufts mouthing "it's all over!" at the Amherst players after scoring the second goal in the 2019 Final (the game finished 2-0). You can get away with it when you win, obviously, but I didn't think it was a great look (the goal could have been disallowed for handball, but that's another debate).
For sure emotions are running high and d4 is correct in noting that Amherst has done its own fair share of instigation of the years — I remember calling out Lind for hugging a Bowdoin player after the Bowdoin player scored an OG in the 2016 NESCAC tournament. Still, unfortunate when players think they need to goad from a winning position.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
I saw this same GK taunt the Wesleyan players after Amherst went up 2-1 in the second half this year. Wes scored first and one of their players shouted fairly loudly "let's go" after the goal. Amherst tied soon after and then got the second goal in the second half. At which point Hope-Gund ran up the sidelines a bit past the center line yelling "let's go" at the top of his lungs while jumping up and down. It was nice to see him give up the tieing goal a few minutes later, but his antics were pretty offensive and done right in front of the stands. I saw many shaking their heads at the poor sportsmanship.
A little off topic with emotions running hot....but, I'm old enough to remember Conn Coll going to PKs with Salem State.
Burk for Conn and Singleton for W&L have got to be the leaders for NCOY and I'm sticking with Bianco at Denison as another strong candidate.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 10:06:51 AM
BTW, who is the second athleticism and physical aggression team in the Final 4?
That's my question too!
The problem with D3 subbing rules isn't that it protects players on cards. The problem is that it promotes a very aggressive/energetic style that doesn't work when you have to manage your energy more closely because you can't run your players into the ground and then sub them. It's not the worst thing in the world but I think it could use tweaking, maybe something more similar to the youth academy rules.
The line between competitive, in your face, emotional soccer - basically all good D3 socceR, particularly in the NESCAC - and rude/unsportsmanlike/douche-y is nuanced and grey. Lots of teams toe it at some point, or occasionally cross it. Only one team I know of consistently crossed it, and they have a reputation for it. As d4_pace said, you have to be prepared for it, that is part of the challenge of playing them - you can't lose your cool. Is it "right" for teams to respond in kind? Idk, probably not, but I get why they do that. Should the refs do more? Probably, but I get why they don't.
Let's also remember that this is D3 soccer and we're not about to get the school Presidents to step in and crack down, nobody cares that much.
I was curious about Burk and looking at his bio was thinking his road to a NESCAC HC job seemed a little different. In part, that was because I thought the CC bio misspelled Newberry College. Then I learned that Newberry is a D2 school in South Carolina, and I was still thinking must mean Newbury given he went to Hobart, also was asst at Alfred and Holy Cross, and originally hails from Massachusetts. But lo and behold, he was at Newberry in South Carolina. He must be really young unless he took time away from college and returned as he played and graduated from Hobart in 2013....so probably 30? 31? Even younger than Travis Wall. So I guess spent a year at CC under Murphy and then got the HC job. His demeanor makes him seem like he's been coaching for 20+ years.
Reuben Burk enters his fourth year on the sidelines and third as the head coach of the Connecticut College men's soccer program in 2021. He came to the institution after spending one year at Newberry College, two years at the College of the Holy Cross, and two years at Alfred University.
In his first season as a collegiate head coach this past fall, Burk led the men's soccer program at Connecticut College to its most successful postseason run in school history. With postseason wins over Catholic, then-No. 3 Johns Hopkins, and Swarthmore, the team's appearance in the "Elite Eight" marked only the third time a Connecticut College program advanced to the quarterfinal round of an NCAA Tournament in any sport. Conn's last team to advance that far came in 1999 when men's basketball advanced to the national semifinal round.
Furthermore, four players - senior midfielder Matt Butera, sophomore midfielder Augie Djerdjaj, junior defender Liam Donelan, and junior goalkeeper AJ Marcucci - earned All-NESCAC postseason laurels, and three of those student-athletes were recognized as United Soccer Coaches All-New England Region selections. Furthermore, Marcucci was named a United Soccer Coaches All-American First Team selection for the second straight season, sophomore defender Luke Stoneback made the CoSIDA Academic All-District II Team for his efforts on the field and in the classroom, and the Camels were named a United Soccer Coaches All-Academic Team for the 11th straight year by recording a team GPA above a 3.0.
Burk made an immediate impact on the sidelines as the team's top assistant since his arrival on campus. He helped head coach Kenny Murphy lead the Camels to a 13-3-2 record overall, including a 7-1-2 mark in conference play, as well as an appearance in the 2018 NCAA Tournament. The most memorable and successful season in school history at the time was highlighted by Burk guiding the program to its first-ever NCAA postseason victory in a 4-0 rout of Thomas College at home on Freeman Field. Furthermore, the Camels produced one United Soccer Coaches All-American, two United Soccer Coaches All-New England Region selections, the NESCAC Player of the Year, and four student-athletes who earned themselves a place on the All-NESCAC First Team.
At Newberry, Burk was the recruiting coordinator and had the main responsibility of overseeing the recruiting process for all prospective student-athletes, both internationally and domestically. Burk helped establish one of Newberry's most diverse recruiting classes for 2018 by helping get commitments from Brazil, Italy, North Carolina, South Carolina and Maryland. He also coordinated recruiting trips to Iceland, Norway, and Spain.
At Holy Cross, Burk helped with a variety of duties including daily coaching, recruiting nationally, scouting, helping plan offseason schedules, game day preparations, travel coordination, community service, and helping run summer camps and clinics.
Burk also served as the assistant coach at Alfred University. The team reached the Empire 8 semifinals in 2014, which marked the program's first conference tournament appearance in nine years. Burk was also part of a group which earned the 2014 Empire 8 Coaching Staff Award.
As a player, Burk was a four-year student-athlete at Hobart College. Under head coach Shawn Griffin, in both 2009 and 2011, Hobart finished in the top 25 Division III national rankings and made appearances in the NCAA Division III National Tournament. In 2009, Burk helped Hobart win the Liberty League conference championship.
A native of Westford, Massachusetts, Burk graduated from Hobart in 2013 with a bachelor's degree in anthropology/sociology and religious studies. He then got his master's in business administration from Alfred University in 2015. Burk also holds a USSF C License as well as a NSCAA Advanced National Diploma.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2021, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 22, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
Could you amplify your comment regarding handling defeat?
I agree that deserves some explanation.
I will say as someone who has a lot of practice, concession and giving credit posts can be brutally hard. Even when intending to be fully gracious and magnanimous, 95% is about as good as it gets. Hard not to take at least a mild swipe at someone.
What's most interesting to me is how personal and deep our affiliations with our teams go. Like for at least a decent portion of us the hypersensitivity and readiness to defend our tribe so to speak are off the charts.
@d4_Pace, if I am making incorrect assumptions, I apologize. Based on your NESCAC rivals comment, I took that as a shot at Middlebury following their loss to Amherst. I was at the game. There was an unseemly situation after the final whistle that was provoked by Amherst. In both of Midd's 1-0 losses to Amherst, the GK, Kofi Hope-Gund, ran at Middlebury players and taunted them after the whistle. In October, he targeted Jordan Saint-Louis. There was more of the same yesterday. Instead of celebrating with his teammates, Hope-Gund again went after a Midd player. Many players from both teams came together, and #17 from Amherst drilled Middlebury's goalkeeper Ryan Grady in the face with a forearm. The referees did not issue any cards to anyone. In fact, there was only one yellow given the whole game, to McFarlane from Midd for complaining about timewasting by Amherst in the closing minutes. Once again Serpone was riding the refs for the entire game, and he certainly does nothing to put a stop to his team's antics.
And this type of $H!t is the main reason I always, flat always, root for Amherst to lose. Of course, it goes without saying, that they believe their opponents are the losers—but really it's the Amherst coaches and players who show their true character in these episodes, which have gone on year after year after year. There, I said it. Bring on the minus K.
The specific Amherst player named here went to an elite private school in Manhattan: https://athletics.amherst.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster/kofi-hope-gund/14258. That place was founded by Quakers, who were and are pacifists. Of course, many Quakers today are enamored of certain "progressive" trends in academe that have no time for any type of Christian heritage, even including Quakers who might happen to be religious. A further irony: the field on which Amherst plays is named after the Antebellum president of the college, Edward Hitchcock, a deeply pious and thoughtful geologist who would find these antics wholly unacceptable. Suffice it to say, if Hitchcock were president of Amherst today, Serpone would have been out of a job a long time ago.
Edited: let me correct one statement. The field is apparently named for Edward Hitchcock, Jr, son of the famous geologist and fossil collector. I assumed the father, not only because he saved Amherst from financial ruin, but also because the new Amherst mascot (replacing the Lord Jeff's), though not actually named for something the senior Hitchcock discovered, certainly stands in that tradition. This correction doesn't alter my overall point about profound disjunction between their heritage and the current soccer program.
And as many here probably already know but I had forgotten....Newbury College in MA closed its doors in 2019 pre-pandemic due to extreme financial distress and placement on accreditation probation.
BTW, Newberry in South Carolina is now looking for a new head men's soccer coach after going 3-13-1.
I'm also old enough to remember when there wasn't an internet.
And while we're taking a look at Final 4 GKs how about this Sam Maidenberg for Conn, who as far as I can tell has been very, very good, and with a lot of pressure replacing the first D3 MLS draftee since 2016, GK A J Marcucci.
Awards:
• NESCAC Fall All-Academic Team (2020)
At Connecticut College:
Has been the Sports Editor for The College Voice and is currently the Managing Editor for the student newspaper ... Helps as a Barista at Coffee Grounds on campus ... Is also a member of the sports information team as a writing aide for the athletic website.
2021 (Spring):
Started and appeared in one countable match as a sophomore ... Recorded a shutout and made three saves in a 2-0 win over Roger Williams (4/11).
2021 (Spring):
Started and appeared in one countable match ... Recorded a shutout and made three saves in a 2-0 win over Roger Williams (4/11).
2020:
Season was canceled due to COVID-19 ... Earned a place on the NESCAC Fall All-Academic Team.
2019:
Did not appear in any matches as a freshman.
High School:
Four-year letterwinner as a goalkeeper at Columbia ... Served as a team captain for two seasons ... Made the all-conference, all-county and all-state teams multiple times ... Also played at the club level for Match Fit Academy ECNL ... Was the news editor for The Columbian, which is a nationally-acclaimed student newspaper.
Personal:
Majoring in International Relations and minoring in English ... Is enrolled in the Media Rhetoric and Communications Pathway ... Enjoys backpacking ... Favorite athlete is LeBron James ... Plans to become a journalist or policy writer after graduation.
As for Marcucci....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJ_Marcucci
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
I'm also old enough to remember when there wasn't an internet.
Ditto. I put myself through college mainly by programming mainframes in FORTRAN and PL/1. No PCs in those days. But, we did have telnet. If you have to look that up, don't bother—just an old guy reminiscing.
Quote from: Falconer on November 23, 2021, 02:33:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
I'm also old enough to remember when there wasn't an internet.
Ditto. I put myself through college mainly by programming mainframes in FORTRAN and PL/1. No PCs in those days. But, we did have telnet. If you have to look that up, don't bother—just an old guy reminiscing.
LOL. When I was at Davidson '78-'81, there was a course called Computers and Statistics and a one room lab where you went to do whatever they did...and I stayed as far away from both the course and the lab as possible.
I'm also old enough to remember visiting W&L, my 2nd choice, and not choosing the school partly because the weather at Davidson was significantly better but also because it was still all-male. I will say that Colonnade building was spectacular. I was very interested in the journalism program that produced some famous correspondents.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 23, 2021, 02:33:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
I'm also old enough to remember when there wasn't an internet.
Ditto. I put myself through college mainly by programming mainframes in FORTRAN and PL/1. No PCs in those days. But, we did have telnet. If you have to look that up, don't bother—just an old guy reminiscing.
LOL. When I was at Davidson '78-'81, there was a course called Computers and Statistics and a one room lab where you went to do whatever they did...and I stayed as far away from both the course and the lab as possible.
I'm also old enough to remember visiting W&L, my 2nd choice, and not choosing the school partly because the weather at Davidson was significantly better but also because it was still all-male. I will say that Colonnade building was spectacular. I was very interested in the journalism program that produced some famous correspondents.
As a graduate of the journalism department, as well as the business school, it was a good program. But I enrolled a decade after coeducation began. My beef with Davidson is they stole our football coach, which is working out so well for them I expect they will be looking for a new one soon....
Quote from: jknezek on November 23, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 23, 2021, 02:33:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
I'm also old enough to remember when there wasn't an internet.
Ditto. I put myself through college mainly by programming mainframes in FORTRAN and PL/1. No PCs in those days. But, we did have telnet. If you have to look that up, don't bother—just an old guy reminiscing.
LOL. When I was at Davidson '78-'81, there was a course called Computers and Statistics and a one room lab where you went to do whatever they did...and I stayed as far away from both the course and the lab as possible.
I'm also old enough to remember visiting W&L, my 2nd choice, and not choosing the school partly because the weather at Davidson was significantly better but also because it was still all-male. I will say that Colonnade building was spectacular. I was very interested in the journalism program that produced some famous correspondents.
As a graduate of the journalism department, as well as the business school, it was a good program. But I enrolled a decade after coeducation began. My beef with Davidson is they stole our football coach, which is working out so well for them I expect they will be looking for a new one soon....
So you're a youngster...frosh around '95 or '96. And I should have clarified the weather comment although Davidson is warmer. It was a cold, dark day in Lexington when I visited with my father and tbh I also was a little socially intimidated. That whole area, with W&L and VMI, and then the cluster of women's colleges around them, had and has a unique and special place in American history. I was just reading about the vote to go co-ed....17 to 7 after a very vigorous but gentlemanly debate...I'm assuming the biggest vote in the school's history on par with the vote there in the past couple of years. Interesting how that whole area feels very, very elite and exclusive to me but in a different way than Northern VA/Dc feels elite.
Iirc you're from Jersey or NYC. What did you think of high-end Southern culture?
I've never had any interest in Davidson football. The basketball program however has a very proud tradition that well pre-dates the Steph Curry era....going back to the early to mid '60s when Lefty Driesell of Maryland fame roamed the sidelines and Davidson lost to UNC in the Elite 8 on a 55-60 foot shot by Charlie Scott who was a megastar back in those days and played for the Celtics.
From poor sportsmanship to old codgers reminiscing....the internet is good.
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 01:26:14 PM
The problem with D3 subbing rules isn't that it protects players on cards. The problem is that it promotes a very aggressive/energetic style that doesn't work when you have to manage your energy more closely because you can't run your players into the ground and then sub them. It's not the worst thing in the world but I think it could use tweaking, maybe something more similar to the youth academy rules.
The line between competitive, in your face, emotional soccer - basically all good D3 socceR, particularly in the NESCAC - and rude/unsportsmanlike/douche-y is nuanced and grey. Lots of teams toe it at some point, or occasionally cross it. Only one team I know of consistently crossed it, and they have a reputation for it. As d4_pace said, you have to be prepared for it, that is part of the challenge of playing them - you can't lose your cool. Is it "right" for teams to respond in kind? Idk, probably not, but I get why they do that. Should the refs do more? Probably, but I get why they don't.
Let's also remember that this is D3 soccer and we're not about to get the school Presidents to step in and crack down, nobody cares that much.
I agree with much of what you say but here's an anecdote that reads differently.
I was watching a Top Ten D3 program play this fall. At half time the woman seated in front of me turned around and introduced herself then asked if I had a son on the team. She was the college president.
Agreed. D3 soccer not being that important big picture doesn't mean college Presidents aren't tuned in, especially at small colleges with 2000 or 2500-3000 o or less students. Amherst in particular doesn't need any controversies or negative attention for systemic-infused bad behavior.
Having come into this season with a long-standing notion that college soccer had a substitution "problem" they needed to "solve"... I watched many hours of D3 soccer this fall... I just don't know if I agree that the subbing encourages or fosters a situation where rampant rough-play rules the day.
Is this something being leveled at Amherst? I only watched 3 or so games, but I just don't know that I see it. It's certainly something that is an available tactic, but I just don't know that I've seen a team ring up a bunch of cards from "goons" told to go out and whack people's ankles.
To me, the result of the potential of subbing just about everyone on the field is that the rich-get-richer, more than anything. You go look at Washington College and Tufts and substitutions employed. Like a lot of top 25 teams, Tufts rolls through 6-7-8(!) guys each half. The Shoremen worked through only 3 subs(!) in that game. Same thing looking at the Hopkins vs. PSU-H game. The Lions rolled through 4 or 5, while Hop put 7 or 8 different guys out there.
I'm open, as always, if someone wants to point to a program or particular game where a ton of fouls are committed by subs. Would be an interesting exercise for next year, maybe.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
And while we're taking a look at Final 4 GKs how about this Sam Maidenberg for Conn, who as far as I can tell has been very, very good, and with a lot of pressure replacing the first D3 MLS draftee since 2016, GK A J Marcucci.
High School:
Four-year letterwinner as a goalkeeper at Columbia ... Served as a team captain for two seasons ... Made the all-conference, all-county and all-state teams multiple times ... Also played at the club level for Match Fit Academy ECNL ... Was the news editor for The Columbian, which is a nationally-acclaimed student newspaper.
If he played at Columbia, then he certainly saw a lot of action. I don't think they've been above .500 in 10 years.
Quote from: Ejay on November 23, 2021, 04:44:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
And while we're taking a look at Final 4 GKs how about this Sam Maidenberg for Conn, who as far as I can tell has been very, very good, and with a lot of pressure replacing the first D3 MLS draftee since 2016, GK A J Marcucci.
High School:
Four-year letterwinner as a goalkeeper at Columbia ... Served as a team captain for two seasons ... Made the all-conference, all-county and all-state teams multiple times ... Also played at the club level for Match Fit Academy ECNL ... Was the news editor for The Columbian, which is a nationally-acclaimed student newspaper.
If he played at Columbia, then he certainly saw a lot of action. I don't think they've been above .500 in 10 years.
He also played club at Match Fit here in NJ, nice kid, was my son's team starting goalie on the '01 ECNL team.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 23, 2021, 04:06:31 PM
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 01:26:14 PM
The problem with D3 subbing rules isn't that it protects players on cards. The problem is that it promotes a very aggressive/energetic style that doesn't work when you have to manage your energy more closely because you can't run your players into the ground and then sub them. It's not the worst thing in the world but I think it could use tweaking, maybe something more similar to the youth academy rules.
The line between competitive, in your face, emotional soccer - basically all good D3 socceR, particularly in the NESCAC - and rude/unsportsmanlike/douche-y is nuanced and grey. Lots of teams toe it at some point, or occasionally cross it. Only one team I know of consistently crossed it, and they have a reputation for it. As d4_pace said, you have to be prepared for it, that is part of the challenge of playing them - you can't lose your cool. Is it "right" for teams to respond in kind? Idk, probably not, but I get why they do that. Should the refs do more? Probably, but I get why they don't.
Let's also remember that this is D3 soccer and we're not about to get the school Presidents to step in and crack down, nobody cares that much.
I agree with much of what you say but here's an anecdote that reads differently.
I was watching a Top Ten D3 program play this fall. At half time the woman seated in front of me turned around and introduced herself then asked if I had a son on the team. She was the college president.
There are definitely anecdotes that read differently and maybe even schools where the President cares. But from what I know, largely the role of a modern day school president, even at a small school, is so far removed from "the soccer team plays kinda dirty". My impression is that it's greater than 50% fundraising, finances, and outward facing stuff that requires a singular college representative and polished communication. The schools themselves tend to be run by the deans and VP. Source: recent experiment at a NESCAC and a relative who is an executive at a small D3 school.
I think this is fine. As much as Amherst antics irk me, there are so many more important things for these people to deal with than some on-field shenanigans, that stuff should be number like 75 on their lists and that effectively means it isn't on their lists. Maybe the athletic director would care, but nobody else, and tbh our Athletic Director was so useless I'm not even sure what his job is.
I think the athletic, very direct style of play by many will slowly erode and you will see the technically stronger, possession-style teams do better (as long as they have some finishers). Many, many more players have been developed over the last 10 years in this style with better coaching as they have grown up.
I think Amherst has been great this year in spite of this style because they probably have the best collection of players in the final third in the league (#9,#10 and #23). I think Serpone will need to evolve or he will go by the way of the dinosaur as younger coaches like Conn's coach beat him with tactics.
Quote from: Novacat on November 23, 2021, 07:50:35 PM
I think the athletic, very direct style of play by many will slowly erode and you will see the technically stronger, possession-style teams do better (as long as they have some finishers). Many, many more players have been developed over the last 10 years in this style with better coaching as they have grown up.
I think Amherst has been great this year in spite of this style because they probably have the best collection of players in the final third in the league (#9,#10 and #23). I think Serpone will need to evolve or he will go by the way of the dinosaur as younger coaches like Conn's coach beat him with tactics.
Good points.
I think I've always been a little slow on the uptake regarding Amherst criticism because I've always thought they do have some really good skilled players. That 2015 team had a lot of soccer talent.
Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.
I get your point and I agree about their talent over the years. Yeah, maybe people haven't used those words exactly, but when complaining about their alleged style with them as well as other teams there seems to be an implication that they do so because of a deficit or lack of ability to win at a high level otherwise. Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Amherst has 3 great players,not a lot of depth;#10 Cubeddu, #9 Giammattei and#23 Okorogheye!
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.
I get your point and I agree about their talent over the years. Yeah, maybe people haven't used those words exactly, but when complaining about their alleged style with them as well as other teams there seems to be an implication that they do so because of a deficit or lack of ability to win at a high level otherwise. Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing
Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.
Quote from: midwest on November 29, 2021, 09:38:04 AM
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing
Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.
That is very impressive!
Quote from: midwest on November 29, 2021, 09:38:04 AM
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing
Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.
That is serious contribution to the development of the game in this country!
At the D3 level , Messiah and Middlebury seems to produce a few successful coaches.
[ Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
[/quote]
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]
As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[ Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]
As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]
Its really kind of undeniable.
Since 2013 (8 seasons) Amherst has led the league in fouls per game 7 times and was 2nd in one season
Since 2013 (8 seasons) Amherst has led the league in yellow cards per game 4 times and was second the other four seasons.
These tactics were deployed despite arguably a talent superiority in most games. This is the piece I do not understand.
I saw them play several times this year but will point out one game - home against Trinity. There were far superior in talent, dominated the game 3-0 victory, 18-1 in shots, yet committed 17 fouls and 4 yellow cards.
Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[ Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]
As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]
As an alum, I think you owe it to yourself to attend a game and stand as close to the Amherst bench as possible. Then judge for yourself.
Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[ Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]
As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]
Don't know if this will be helpful and I am by no means an expert on this, but I've been paying attention to the theme here for a decade.
For at least a handful of years I was a bit of skeptic and pushed back some on the trash Amherst campaign (perhaps exaggerated wording but not by much). I've only watched Amherst in person a couple of times...way back in maybe 2012ish against Bridgewater State and then this year at Tufts. I have to say I didn't notice anything glaringly untoward in either instance. That said, the concerns about Amherst behavior clearly go way back and have been noted by a variety of people from multiple teams and fan bases (and even other conferences and regions). The sheer volume of the complaints from various sources over a long period of time suggests the complaints have validity. I was appalled by the Amherst behavior in the immediate aftermath of the recent win over Midd. I can't comment on to what extent Midd may have contributed either in terms of initiation or response, or whether there is a history there preceding that game or events during the game that contributed. What I did see was some overtly poor sportsmanship and taunting from some Amherst players.
The following is more speculative...but my sense is that at least roughly parallel to Serpone taking over Amherst overtook Williams as the top Nescac program, although Williams continued to be a thorn in Amherst's side including I believe in a season where Amherst was undefeated and was denied a Final 4 trip by the Ephs. Amherst's dominance often seemed to be linked to very strong talent, but also very physical play with teams that were significantly bigger than other teams. I don't fully understand the link between the physicality and size of Amherst and the alleged antics, and maybe there is none, but I seem to recall suggestions that Amherst played an over the line aggressive style. I remember at least one recent Amherst alum back in the day retort that certain players from Williams gave as good as they got. Anyway, parallel to the Russo retirement, Amherst did fully overtake Williams. Midd and Bowdoin had their moments over the past decade+, but Amherst clearly became THE Nescac powerhouse.
Then comes Tufts which I assume many would argue knocked the bullies down a peg. The rise of Tufts imo has mirrored Amherst in at least some respects...high level D3 talent, athleticism, and size/physicality. Tufts generally enjoys better reviews in terms of style of play, and also has been spared complaints about aggression, antics, etc...with the exception of one notable incident in a Bowdoin game I have referenced before. Anyway, Tufts rose to equal and surpass the Amherst level of success. I don't know if Tufts being able to match Amherst's physical play was part of the success or just an artifact, but it does seem that Tufts (at least since 2014) never got punked by Amherst. I remarked after they played this year that Tufts looked bigger and more physical than Amherst. If anyone was doing the punking it was Tufts.
One other thing seems clear. Amherst has been hearing about these complaints with very explicit references to the coach for YEARS. It appears that the coach and perhaps alums/players have seen no need to adjust and behave better. To me the alleged behavior is counter-productive. Some of these schools already can be difficult to embrace for many due to the exclusivity and elitism. I've said this before, but I think we're in an era where tolerance for exclusivity/elitism is thinner and thinner, and adding poor behavior to the mix creates a look that is less than attractive (and which may be more damaging over time than one might think).
And of course if Amherst wins the title the program will embrace a vindication narrative and feel quite justified in adopting a smug, defiant attitude regarding all of the above.
To quote Mike Tyson, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Amherst apparently does the punching, which is certainly a game plan that can lead to success. But I wouldn't necessarily call them bullies. It's not like they're the Danbury Trashers (https://m.facebook.com/dbtrashers/videos/1176321166203436/).
Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[ Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior. As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win. Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]
As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]
If you can find the video from the ending of the Amherst-Middlebury NCAA game, you will see what poor sportsmanship really looks like. A thoroughly unlikable group.
First, i just want to wish Chicago the best in their latest Final 4 appearance - one of the powers in D3 for the past decade, and a team that does things right in every aspect of the game. As a Rochester fan i've seen them in person once a year since 2016 (twice in 2018) and they always played a quality game based on skill, discipline and quick ball movement. So when not lined up against my Yellowjackets, im a fan.
I've only seen Amherst in person once, in the 2017 second round, and i have to add my voice to the many others who have witnessed their boorish behavior. Their strategy against UR in that game (which was played at Messiah) was best summed up by one of the Messiah video stream commentators after yet another mindless Amherst hoof - "It's like they don't even want the ball". That's probably too harsh (after all they've won a lot of games and even a national title), but it came after Amherst had scored on an early corner, and then spent more than an hour doing nothing but playing and acting negatively - consistent and ugly physical challenges, a constant and mindless noise from their sideline, and an almost comical challenging of every call and out ball in the game. In the end they only hurt themselves as they gave up 2 second half goals and were bounced from the tournament, but it left an impression to say the least. And it wasn't just myself and our fans, as even the Messiah players told our guys the next day how happy they were to "be able to play a soccer game today and not a rugby match".
They are obviously coached that way, and no doubt it probably gives them a bit of energy and edge, but i agree with most of the others here that it can only take you so far - more often than not, quality will win out. Hoping that's the case again next weekend!
There's pretty much an endless amount of stories about the antics from Amherst, but there's one particular incident that sticks out in my mind from a personal viewpoint. SLU hosted a first round pod in 2014, and the 2nd match of the first round featured Amherst vs. Fitchburg State. I was at those games and stuck around after the SLU game to watch those teams play. It's one thing to behave poorly during the game, as emotions run high in the run of play (which is still not an excuse) but what I saw before that game was simply atrocious. Amherst had just taken the field for warmups and then the Fitchburg players came onto the pitch from the opposite side of Sandy MacAllaster, which meant they had to walk through the Amherst side of the field. As the Fitchburg players made their way across the field the entire Amherst squad proceeded to jeer, heckle, taunt and ridicule the Fitchburg players. It was basically a gauntlet of extremely poor sportsmanship. The Fitchburg players admirably did not take the bait and ignored them. I felt really bad for them.
The success of Amherst is undeniable and Serpone clearly is one of the best coaches in the country. But what I saw that day showed me a program that does not have a culture of magnanimity or good sportsmanship, and that comes from the top. I'm just one person with one viewpoint that might be a minority opinion, and I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself. But the reputation of Amherst is most definitely not without merit.
In the eyes of Amherst defenders, the Mammoths' reputation has come as a consequence of jealousy stemming from its success: a national title in 2015, half the NESCAC titles between 2010 and 2020, Sweet 16 streak, etc. It is worth noting that Amherst probably gets a disproportionate amount of criticism vs. other programs who have also been "less than perfect" in terms of behavior — the behavior from that UMASS Boston side against Haverford in 2016 was the single biggest disgrace I've ever seen in a D3 environment. It is probably true that Amherst's direct style of play rubs some (other than just myself) the wrong way. Personally I find them tough to watch, but they seem to have become a bit more possession-based this year — either way, I think it is inaccurate to correlate "direct" with "defensive" or "parking the bus" as there are a lot of attacking sides in the professional game that are pretty direct. (In fact, my favorite pro team shares a lot of similarities with Shapiro's Tufts in terms of employing a high press, having a combination of skillful players and steel, being able to play through the midfield or go long, and having a variety of ways to win games.)
Still, in terms of ill will, Tufts — a program with four national titles — doesn't seem to attract nearly as much (even if PN among others enjoy watching them get knocked down a peg), so there doesn't seem to be a linear correlation between national success and distaste for a given program. Now, to be fair, Tufts is not a team of angels: the example of the handball/goading in the 2019 title game stands out, and IIRC Braun should have been sent off for an elbow in that game. My point is that there are a number of successful programs out there that (rightly or wrongly) haven't anywhere near the reputation that Amherst does, and while some of that may be unfair, there are likely reasons for it — mainly, that the sample size of incidents would appear to be larger.
I haven't been privy to anything like the anecdotes provided, but for me it sometimes sounds like the bench yells just for the sake of yelling (IIRC I commented on that when observing them at Bowdoin tis year). Of course coaches/benches/etc. are animated at various points throughout a given game, and rightly so, but it just seems a bit over the top.
You left out the PLK incident several years ago Tufts vs Bowdoin.
And, lol, if hoping Tufts (and Messiah) don't win the national title every single year makes me a hater...guilty as charged ;) !
Of course it's entirely possible I have some deeply latent dysphoria about those programs knocking out another hapless program a couple or three times.
RE: Amherst again...an unfortunate irony (and irony may not be the correct word) is that Amherst may have one of if not the most skilled, talented offensive player over at least the past several years
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2021, 09:48:50 AM
You left out the PLK incident several years ago Tufts vs Bowdoin.
Ah, yes, who could forget (evidently me).
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 01, 2021, 09:48:50 AM
And, lol, if hoping Tufts (and Messiah) don't win the national title every single year makes me a hater...guilty as charged ;) !
Of course it's entirely possible I have some deeply latent dysphoria about those programs knocking out another hapless program a couple or three times.
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with (metaphorically speaking) wanting the cool kids to get their head dunked in the toilet!
Quote from: blooter442 on December 01, 2021, 09:37:31 AM
In the eyes of Amherst defenders, the Mammoths' reputation has come as a consequence of jealousy stemming from its success: a national title in 2015, half the NESCAC titles between 2010 and 2020, Sweet 16 streak, etc. It is worth noting that Amherst probably gets a disproportionate amount of criticism vs. other programs who have also been "less than perfect" in terms of behavior — the behavior from that UMASS Boston side against Haverford in 2016 was the single biggest disgrace I've ever seen in a D3 environment. It is probably true that Amherst's direct style of play rubs some (other than just myself) the wrong way. Personally I find them tough to watch, but they seem to have become a bit more possession-based this year — either way, I think it is inaccurate to correlate "direct" with "defensive" or "parking the bus" as there are a lot of attacking sides in the professional game that are pretty direct. (In fact, my favorite pro team shares a lot of similarities with Shapiro's Tufts in terms of employing a high press, having a combination of skillful players and steel, being able to play through the midfield or go long, and having a variety of ways to win games.)
Still, in terms of ill will, Tufts — a program with four national titles — doesn't seem to attract nearly as much (even if PN among others enjoy watching them get knocked down a peg), so there doesn't seem to be a linear correlation between national success and distaste for a given program. Now, to be fair, Tufts is not a team of angels: the example of the handball/goading in the 2019 title game stands out, and IIRC Braun should have been sent off for an elbow in that game. My point is that there are a number of successful programs out there that (rightly or wrongly) haven't anywhere near the reputation that Amherst does, and while some of that may be unfair, there are likely reasons for it — mainly, that the sample size of incidents would appear to be larger.
I haven't been privy to anything like the anecdotes provided, but for me it sometimes sounds like the bench yells just for the sake of yelling (IIRC I commented on that when observing them at Bowdoin tis year). Of course coaches/benches/etc. are animated at various points throughout a given game, and rightly so, but it just seems a bit over the top.
I do not know if you saw my posts from a couple pages ago....I do not think that the criticism of Amherst comes just from jealousy of success, the data does not lie, they have been in the top 2 in both fouls per game and yellow cards per game every year for at least 8 straight years. That can only come from a direct strategy as opposed to bad luck, bad officiating, or a particularly rough set of players.
The irony of their style is that they have probably the best set of skilled player up front of any NESCAC team. #9 Giamatti is an amazing talent. Why not play on a large turf field where you can better possess the ball and get him the ball in isolated instances? No, they would rather play on a small grass field where they can flip throw it in the box 20 times a game, where BTW they are not really that dangerous on set pieces compared to others like Middlebury, Tufts Bowdoin, Williams etc.
I personally think - longer term - this style will be overwhelmed by a more skill-based, possession oriented game plan. More and more players are being developed in that mode and they are finding their way to D3. See Conn College. Their possession and play in the final 3rd is quite impressive. I may have to eat crow in the short term if Giamatti does his thing this weekend.
Can't say I know the history of Amherst, but can only comment on the three games I watched.
First, I find benches that hoot and holler over slide tackles very off putting. It's ok to say something like "good tackle!" but to cheer as if it's is fuel to fire. They go in tough, they get cheered, they go in tougher, they get cheered more ... and again, I don't mind tough play but I find this to be too much.
Second, the last game against Middlebury, the coach was obnoxious with fouls and calls. As was his bench. They cheer for tough tackles, and then scream for a red card when the other team does the same. And the head coach stomps around like a petulant 2nd grader. Again, this is my impression from watching on video, so I could be wrong, but until someone tells me differently, I see what I see.
Third, against Middlebury, to say that Amherst players, especially the goalkeeper were not rubbing it in the faces of the Middlebury players, would be an understatement. I think that's what they do during the game, and clearly after, they provoke. If I were a senior and the goalkeeper did that to me, I would punch him. I take the red....
Fourth, if you watch how they tackle, especially from behind, they go in hard and reach in for the ball and bump the player. Every time. To me, this is coached. More times than not, it looks like a foul to me, but I think refs after a while start to accept "it's part of the game" and shy away from using the whistle.
So, are they physical, yes. Are they dirty, I would say they walk on a razor's edge. Are they classless, indeed.
At least so says I.
Perhaps the Mammoths don't read this board -- perhaps they aren't even aware of its existence at all -- but if they do read it, I would imagine that they're eating up the last five pages with a spoon. Not just because it's confirmation that they're living rent-free in the heads of the opposition (taking the angle that if opposing fans think this of them, opposing players must think it as well), but because it feeds what I call the "positive paranoia" that is a distinctive feature of much of American team sports nowadays, especially among fanbases of teams that draw negative press or strong hostility from rival fans. I see lots of "Cleveland against the world", "Packers against the world", etc., t-shirts nowadays, so the adoption of a fortress mentality as a rallying focus in the sports world, whether legit or not, is a whole vibe.
It wouldn't surprise me if Amherst has the attitude that if it wins two games in Greensboro this weekend the Mammoths won't simply be sticking it to two teams, they'll be sticking it to 412 of them.
the 412 team part! I am a fan of Tufts, I don't detect any anger towards Amherst among fans, we consider them worthy rivals.
I do think there's more than a little something about creating a consistently "uncomfortable" environment that is at play here. I didn't encounter this in college, but there was a particular squad out of Reston on the DMV club scene that was all about intimidating the opponent, and it started long before the whistle blew.
You just knew you had 90 minutes of pain coming and it was very difficult for teams to get past it. Didn't help that their parents/supporters relished the role, too.
Quote from: camosfan on December 01, 2021, 03:05:34 PM
the 412 team part! I am a fan of Tufts, I don't detect any anger towards Amherst among fans, we consider them worthy rivals.
If you are a Tufts fans and don't know any Tufts alums/players/fans that dislike Amherst then you haven't met a lot of Tufts folks. Worthy rivals, no question. Anger, no question.
There could be some recency bias used to build up some bulletin board material but this has been going on for 10 years.
I doubt there is one coach in those 4 who is not finding some way to make it them against the world to some degree. But honestly, it's the final four. Either you are going to play well or you are going to cave to the pressure.
I've been on teams that have done both, I've coached teams that have done both, and even as an adult, I've had martial arts tournaments where I've done both. And I'll be darned if I can figure out why it happens sometimes and other times it doesn't. But I've never really found bulletin board material mattered much beyond the first whistle and then after when you have to think a few words. When you are out there on the field, there isn't much time to think about those things.
Quote from: jknezek on December 01, 2021, 04:33:29 PM
But I've never really found bulletin board material mattered much beyond the first whistle ... When you are out there on the field, there isn't much time to think about those things.
Totally agree. Bulletin board ends once you step on the pitch. If you don't have fire in your belly just by the fact that you're in the Final Four, then there's something wrong.
I'd say the Amherst lack of class topic is just about exhausted. They're evidently perfectly fine with their earned reputation over the years. Not a legacy I'd want to have attached to me, but hey, to each their own.
Here's hoping for good weather and quality games this weekend.
Quote from: midwest on November 29, 2021, 09:38:04 AM
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing
Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.
Oh ya Bobby Clark's tentacles are all over College Soccer for the good and the bad IMO. Most impressive to me on your list is the University of Pittsburgh. That program was on the brink of disaster with its longtime HC Joe Luxbacher. Jay Vidovich former HC at Wake Forest and Jay Martin OWU alum has really turned the ship around.
Greensboro NC Weather:
Friday Sunny 70°
Saturday Sunny 70°
Throwback Thursday . . .
D3soccer.com (https://d3soccer.com/)
A look back: 1981 Men's Soccer Final Four (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/1981/Mens-FinalFour-History-1981)
40 years ago, the Final Four was played at Elizabethtown College between Brandeis, Glassboro St., Scranton, and Ohio Wesleyan. Find out who won complete with match reports, season recaps, an overview of the entire tournament, and a look at what was going on around the world and in pop culture in 1981.
https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/1981/Mens-FinalFour-History-1981
Ten years ago at D3soccer.com the idea was to do retrospectives of the Final Fours (and tournament and seasons) from 10, 20, and 30 years ago as (a) content to fill the 2-week gap between the Sectionals and the Final Four and (b) to create a centralized recorded history of Division III men's soccer. It was fun putting a few of them together, but it required a lot of time and effort and I only completed two (1980 & 1990) the first year and one (1981) the next. Anyway, the 1981 retrospective, that was a 30-year look back when produced, is now 40 years ago. I invite you to check it out (and the other two from 1980 and 1990).
Brilliant! Great work here.
Great job Cristan.
Interesting that OWU STILL has Jay Martin 40 years later and of course Coven at Brandeis just stepped aside a few years ago after a couple more Final 4 appearances after a long drought. Can't comment on Glassboro (Rowan, right?) and Scranton.
I am as clueless on this as anyone else but Martin looks like he can go another 10-15 years. And Coven looks great and could easily be coaching as well, as evidenced by his stepping in as an interim at Wheaton (MA) following the Matt Cushing tragedy. Coven's brother, a prominent judge in Massachusetts, is literally in the same courthouse as myself right now (and daily).
Three things I liked most about the throwback:
1. Seeing Jay Martin was in his 5th year at OWU.
2. That Scranton had two Cedric's. You don't see that name often anymore.
3. A pre-NCAA Messiah won the NCCAA Championship
Quote from: Ejay on December 02, 2021, 09:55:09 AM
Three things I liked most about the throwback:
1. Seeing Jay Martin was in his 5th year at OWU.
2. That Scranton had two Cedric's. You don't see that name often anymore.
3. A pre-NCAA Messiah won the NCCAA Championship
I was a sophomore at the University of Dayton in 1976 - we beat OWU 2-1. UD was non-scholarship and a glorified d3 team then.
Down here in Greensboro- got a 9 am tee time tomorrow, wondering what to do in the evening . . . ;D ;D
Hey D4, how about a little color on the past couple of the days for these teams, what tomorrow is like, etc. Do you see and interact with the other teams? Events with special speakers? Filet mignon, chicken, salmon or all of the above? Curfew? Team outings like NC Zoo in Asheboro, bus trip over to Raleigh to see Carolina Hurricanes?
The exact timing on events is a little fuzzy after all these years but i'll give it my best shot. Usually we get in some time Wednesday morning/early afternoon, get checked in and then have a light training session at some local high school. Thursday was always the big day with a bunch of activities. In the morning you usually do some sort of "volunteering" at a local place. One year we went to a local animal shelter and just played with the dogs, another year we hosted a soccer clinic for a PE class at a local elementary school. Then you get exactly 60 minutes, not a second more or less they are very strict, on the actual game field for practice. Head back to the hotel rest, get changed, and then that night is the final four banquet with all 8 men's and women's teams. One person from each team gives a speech, all-americans are announced etc. The food is usually solid, mass banquet buffet style. In Greensboro my last year they had a weird post dinner social that was in like a night club at the hotel. Super odd for the night before the final four. I remember none of the other men's teams went but we did and hung out for like 15 minutes then went to sleep. From what I remember 3/4 or all of the women's teams were there. Kind of odd decision by the NCAA. Overall the activities are pretty fun and relaxed and then Friday its go time.
Pretty fired up and, at the same time, irritated I won't get to watch the Generals play tonight due to significant other commitments. But still... first final 4. Huge step for the program!
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 10:44:52 AM
Pretty fired up and, at the same time, irritated I won't get to watch the Generals play tonight due to significant other commitments. But still... first final 4. Huge step for the program!
You'll at least have your phone, right? I'd be out of my mind in your shoes.
At the beginning of the season how many would have predicted there would be two NESCAC teams in the Final Four neither named Tufts?
You can make a good case they would have had three if placed in three different sectionals, and a decent shot at four if placed in four.
I am a very ambivalent observer of NESCAC but with shorter preseasons, condensed regular seasons, and no (official) Spring activity you really do have to tip your cap.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 10:44:52 AM
Pretty fired up and, at the same time, irritated I won't get to watch the Generals play tonight due to significant other commitments. But still... first final 4. Huge step for the program!
You'll at least have your phone, right? I'd be out of my mind in your shoes.
For some of the game maybe. It is my twin boys 10th birthday. Some things are just more important.
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 10:44:52 AM
Pretty fired up and, at the same time, irritated I won't get to watch the Generals play tonight due to significant other commitments. But still... first final 4. Huge step for the program!
You'll at least have your phone, right? I'd be out of my mind in your shoes.
For some of the game maybe. It is my twin boys 10th birthday. Some things are just more important.
Well, I can't challenge or compete with that. But I'm frustrated as well because our work Holiday party is right at 5:00 and everyone keeps checking in to make sure I'm coming.
Key to game....who has better performance...Bass or Yeonas.
Alma mater wins out over my NESCAC ties: GO GENERALS!
Nothing like the final 4 boys.
I can say from going on 3 decades of D3 soccer experience that the best team does not always win the championship, but the hungriest team always does.
Who's starving boys?
that would be Camels.
My philosophy, particularly in a season such as this one in which the bracket is not designed to culminate in a northeast vs. northeast, non-northeast vs. non-northeast semifinal round (a la 2017 and 2018), is to root for anybody located west of the Allegheny and/or south of the Potomac.
It's obviously a rooting philosophy that has led to (usually mild) disappointment over the past decade.
Regardless ... go Generals, go Maroons!
I wonder if there has ever been an NCAA tournament with the unusual result that we now have with this tournament.
Not a single NESCAC team was knocked out of the tournament by a non NESCAC foe.
Sigh.
Quote from: Novacat on December 04, 2021, 10:09:56 AM
I wonder if there has ever been an NCAA tournament with the unusual result that we now have with this tournament.
Not a single NESCAC team was knocked out of the tournament by a non NESCAC foe.
Good catch. I don't think that means they would have won any non-conference game conceivable, but still notable and uniquely impressive.
Totally agree Paul. Mostly just a scheduling anomaly but I think also indicative of NESCAC's strength this year which I know has been discussed at nauseam. But I do feel bad for Wesleyan who had a great year and deserved a bid. I have not gone through all the NESCAC schedules but I do know they had some very notable out of conference victories like Hamilton over Oneata and Tufts over Brandeis/Babson/MIT and Amherst over Norwich/Stevens/St Joes.
I think it also shows that you need to test yourself during the season. If you are W&L and in a less powerful conference, you need to find a way to get some strong out of conf games.
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 11:19:07 AM
Totally agree Paul. Mostly just a scheduling anomaly but I think also indicative of NESCAC's strength this year which I know has been discussed at nauseam. But I do feel bad for Wesleyan who had a great year and deserved a bid. I have not gone through all the NESCAC schedules but I do know they had some very notable out of conference victories like Hamilton over Oneata and Tufts over Brandeis/Babson/MIT and Amherst over Norwich/Stevens/St Joes.
I think it also shows that you need to test yourself during the season. If you are W&L and in a less powerful conference, you need to find a way to get some strong out of conf games.
We can agree that in any scenario the winning pct of NESCACs, particularly the top half/top 6 in any given year, would be very high versus most non-conference foes.
And yeah, W&L can't do anything about their conference but they DO schedule pretty well out of conference, as they've played CNU, Emory, Centre, Hanover, etc this year and Messiah, F&M, Brandeism Hopkins, etc in prior years.
Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.
LOL. Who do you want them to play? They've played Emory, CNU, Messiah, F&M, Hopkins, Brandeis, etc....just beat Messiah and lost in OT at the Final 4 in a game that easily could have gone either way. They very easily could have won the whole thing.
How far do you have to get to be considered a serious contender?
Don't think they played Brandeis or FM this year, did Emory made the playoffs? Now CNU on the other hand did a good job of playing stronger team out of their conference!
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 12:23:51 PM
Don't think they played Brandeis or FM this year, did Emory made the playoffs? Now CNU on the other hand did a good job of playing stronger team out of their conference!
Ummm....Emory not only made the tournament but hosted and were top 15 most of the year.
And are you saying you didn't consider them a serious contender? Really?
CNU played a great schedule...they also only had to schedule a handful or less of conference games.
W&L had very good to solid non-conference games with CNU, Emory, Mary Wash was scheduled but canceled, Centre, Hanover, and extra no-conference game with Lynchburg (all six of those NCAA teams), Oglethorpe (frequent NCAA participant)... only arguably soft game was NC Wesleyan that lost USAC final in PKs to another NCAA team Covenant. W&L otherwise has same issue as Calvin and North Park in terms of limits caused by conference affiliation.
Is the parade in New London today?
Gotta say I remain stunned at the deafening silence about Conn Coll winning the title as regards a large majority of frequent posters/visitors.
To summarize and expand on PN's defense of Washington & Lee's scheduling . . .
They have 9 regular season ODAC contests and a potential for 3 ODAC tournament games. That leaves them 8 games for non-conference play. While not as geographically isolated and limited as the Pacific Coast schools, for mid-week games they are just a little farther than most non-ODAC opponents would want to travel on a Wednesday evening. Which is why they play back-to-back Friday/Saturday games in their non-conference schedule. But Friday is still probably not the most attractive game for teams from the Mid-Atlantic or Ohio who are typically playing a mid-week game (Tue. or Wed.) and a Saturday game. So Washington & Lee plays most of the top non-ODAC teams from their region and, as they are able, some top teams from the Mid-Atlantic/Ohio. For example, Messiah in 2015, Rowan/Oneonta/Ohio Wesleyan/Messiah in 2016, F&M in 2017 and 2018, Brandeis/Johns Hopkins in 2019. This year, 6 of their 8 scheduled non-conference opponents were NCAA Tournament participants in 2019 (the two that weren't: Emory & Lynchburg). And as PN touched on, 5 made this year's NCAA tournament, 3 were ranked Top 25 entering the NCAA Tournament, and 5 were regionally ranked by the NCAA in the final regional rankings. All but Hanover were from their region (and Covid might have played a role here), but my guess is that Mike Singleton is constantly trying to schedule a few non-conference games with Top 25 caliber teams from the Mid-Atlantic and Ohio.
Washington & Lee played a very respectable .593 SOS and their tournament performance was on par with the other semifinalists both in the semifinals and earlier in the tournament. They were a legitimate contender. Now I agree that more games against top level opponents would always be beneficial, especially when you play in a bloated ODAC that isn't that strong these days. But they were right there with Conn. Col. in the semifinal in a game that could have gone either way. I can't remember a Final Four in which the chances to become champions felt so nearly equal among all four of the teams as this year. They all were legitimate contenders.
While this purple patch for the NESCAC would seem to support the need to play a tougher schedule to be able to win a national title, I would point out that (a) the UAA isn't winning national titles despite regularly having some of the national's highest SOSs, and (b) prior to the NESCAC's run, Messiah racked up 10 national titles in 13 years playing in a so-so conference and with a strength-of-schedule that often was questioned.
Thanks, FW, I was trying to figure out where I counted one NCAA team too many. I was including Mary Washington because MW, UWW, CNU seemed
like a pod but of course was that crazy conference. Anyway, MW counts a legit game W&L scheduled even though it was canceled. Also interesting that W&L played ALL FOUR teams in the Emory pod.
Bottom line is that it's just ludicrous to suggest W&L didn't schedule well and that they weren't a serious contender. If those four teams played again next weekend the odds for all four would be basically even.
I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself. However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.
Just a little data to consider.
Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.
Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.
While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 04:50:49 PM
I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself. However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.
Just a little data to consider.
Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.
Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.
While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.
But no one suggested their schedule was as tough as Amherst's or Connecticut's. We were responding to the statement that Washington & Lee were
not serious contenders because they did not play a tougher schedule:
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
Always thought W&L needed bigger tests before the playoffs to be considered serious contenders.
Our contention / rebuttal is (a) they
were serious contenders and (b) they probably scheduled as tough as they were able.
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 04:50:49 PM
I am not suggesting that W&L was not a worthy contender, their performance speaks for itself. However their conference is weaker than others so it puts a big onus on out of conference games.
Just a little data to consider.
Their Goals for and against in 6 out of conference games were 17-2 versus 8-1 for Amherst in 5 games and 11-3 for Conn in 5 games.
Also they played 6 games (conf and non conf) in which they won by 3+ goals versus 2 for Amherst and 2 for Conn.
While this data I am sure does not completely tell the story, its directional that their out of conference schedule appeared weaker and they had far more cupcakes.
Novacat, you've demonstrated a capacity to be reasonable, but some of you NESCAC/Tufts folks (and are these burner accounts?) just amaze me. You had 4 of the last 8, the last 2, and have made very credible claims that you could or should have had 3 or 4 at the Final 4 and you're absolutely correct Wesleyan deserved a bid. You got another title. 95% of the board is about NESCAC. You need more? To quote Scott Seiss in his IKEA bit... "Where does it end, Diane??!" And now you need to pick on W&L? Like what is underlying this? What is the point here?
The directional is pointing...schedule weaker and had more cupcakes? What? Why guess? We literally just laid out W&L's entire out of conference schedule above...
Mary Wash -- canceled -- some good wins in Mid/South Atlantic, beat UWW, lost to CNU conference final
Emory -- NCAA pod host, few weeks ago considered one of hottest teams in the country, UAA big boy
Oglethorpe -- played one of toughest schedules in country themselves, frequent NCAA participant, won like 8 games in a row
NC Wesleyan -- give you this one although strong tradition and got to USAC final and lost in PKs to Covenant who beat Denison
Lynchburg -- NCAA team
Hanover -- NCAA team that knocked out Emory at Emory
Centre -- NCAA team and 2019 Final Four
Christopher Newport -- NCAA team and serious contender
That's it...so don't surmise...tell us where all the non-conference game cupcakes are.
W&L beat CNU and Messiah in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8...no surmising...they actually played and beat those teams. They played Conn evenly and one could argue that they were slightly better, meaning that folks could reasonably differ.
Now, let me give you some other names...and you tell me if there are any cupcakes...
Manhattanville, RIC, Mitchell, Salem St, Mt St Mary, Framingham St, Eastern Nazarene (do you even know where that is?), Keene St, Emerson, Clark, Fitchburg St, University of New England, Husson, Maine Maritime, Southern Maine, Thomas
And then 1st round heavyweights Rosemont, Salem St, New England College...
Enjoy your victory, your dominance and superiority. Savor it. Heck, some of you NESCAC folks can't even congratulate one of your own. But don't try to diminish W&L which even being wildly conservative clearly was one of the 10 best teams in the country and most of us probably believe one of the top 5-6 teams, that reached the Final Four with very legit teams to beat to get there and with a bounce here or there could be holding the trophy right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cawa9AYdXE
There is too much tension here! a lot about this great game is one opinion versus a next, Baca thought Suarez was done, he went to Athletico and beat them twice in the same year ,leading the scoring on a title run.
My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested. Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.
In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.
This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information. I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 08:49:43 PM
My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested. Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.
In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.
This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information. I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?
You obviously can say whatever you want. But how did they "maybe fail"? Why are you saying that? Because they lost in OT in a national semi?
And neither one of you countered the very specific info presented to you about their non-conference schedule or how many more NCAA tourney teams you think they should have played. And if they weren't battle tested how did they beat CNU and Messiah??? Or lose to Conn in OT. You guys act like they got to the Final Four (which usually counts as a huge success) and lost to Conn 5-0.
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 07:59:32 PM
There is too much tension here! a lot about this great game is one opinion versus a next, Baca thought Suarez was done, he went to Athletico and beat them twice in the same year ,leading the scoring on a title run.
No worries. It's all good. Now please pull up Lexington, VA on google maps and tell us who you would want them to play non-conference beyond FIVE NCAA tourney teams and a minimum of SEVEN legit non-conference games (out of total of EIGHT).
And given the horribly weak conference schedule how did they achieve a SOS at .593 which is virtually identical to Conn and Midd and higher than Wesleyan and Bowdoin (without the benefit of the boost of a NESCAC schedule)?
Maybe next year W&L can come to New England and take on Mitchell, Eastern Naz, Fitchburg St, and Southern Maine.
And either one of you please explain how you came to the conclusion that W&L wasn't "battle tested." Can we conclude now that Tufts wasn't battle tested because they merely reached the Elite 8?
Careful boys. I got smoted a month back because I suggested that maybe the boys from Rochester who play in Yellow were maybe fortunate to get a bid.
Here is how I see it. If you can make the final4,then you can win a national championship. I have seen teams, with my own eyes , who could have easily lost in the semi and won the chip shutting out both teams faced in the final 4.
I recall Richard Stockton getting blanked by Wheaton 4-0 at a final 4 and then telling everyone right after they were coming back to win it.Guess who were champs 2 years later?
Hats off to all final 4 teams, you dont get here by accident, thats for sure.
I can see CC repeating, I can also see any one of these 4 teams winning it all next season as well.
Actually all four of the teams were quite battle tested. Conn beat NYU and the defending champ on their own field. Amherst has been there, went through the NESCAC and survived a Midd team that was tough as nails. Chicago had the toughest or one of the 2-3 toughest schedules and had to get through Otterbein on the road, Calvin, and North Park. And W&L merely had to beat an excellent CNU team followed by the ultimate gold standard in D3 history. To beat Messiah in an Elite 8 game and have someone suggest they weren't battle tested is just beyond ludicrous.
But, after all this back and forth, we still have zero clue what prompted the comment that W&L wasn't battle tested...like we don't even know what that was supposed to mean.
Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.
First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.
Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.
Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.
The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.
Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.
Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.
Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.
Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!
Quote from: jknezek on December 06, 2021, 09:39:21 PM
Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.
First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.
Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.
Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.
The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.
Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.
Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.
Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.
Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!
CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!
Here is a great win-win for everyone the first weekend NESCACs are permitted to play...
Conn goes to Ohio for OWU and Kenyon...
Tufts goes to Chicago for North Park and Chicago..
Midd heads to VA to take on CNU or Lynchburg and W&L or VA and GA to play W&L and Emory...
Amherst heads to TX and CO to play Trinity and Colorado College back to back...
Wesleyan goes to PA for Messiah and F&M...
Bowdoin goes to NY for Rochester and Oneonta...
Williams goes to MI for Calvin and Hope...
Hamilton goes to NJ for Rowan and Montclair..
Colby goes to CA for C-M-S and Redlands...
Bates goes to NY to play Vassar and RPI...
Trinity goes to PA for Gettysburg and MD for Hopkins...
And please, don't need to hear reasons why NESCACs can't travel....all of them got plenty of money and totally reasonably every other year or every third year.
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 09:59:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 06, 2021, 09:39:21 PM
Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.
First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.
Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.
Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.
The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.
Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.
Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.
Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.
Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!
CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!
W&L traveled to Boston a few years ago. No reason that can't be reciprocated by a couple of NESCACs.
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 09:59:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 06, 2021, 09:39:21 PM
Well... it's been a long weekend. Twin boys 10th birthday on Friday here in AL, flew to CT first thing Saturday morning for my parents 50th anniversary, and finally got back tonight.
First off... congratulations Conn College. First National Championship and well deserved.
Second... man the Generals have had it tough the last 2 tournaments. 2 overtime losses to the eventual National Champion. Pretty clear to me a few bounces here or there and the Generals might have held that trophy. The same for Chicago and Amherst. There wasn't but a hair of difference between those teams, but the hair belongs to Conn College, so good job Camels. Super proud of the Generals for their big breakthrough season and I can't wait to see what comes next year.
Next, I've read through some of what I missed. I watched some of the other games, all of the Conn/Generals game. The announcing was fine. It was a bit more anecdotal than I prefer, I'd rather have the focus on the game 70% of the time and the anecdotes and tangential topic discussion 30%, but if it's flipped it's flipped and I thought it was ok.
The yellow card on the Generals was... regrettable for that foul, that offense, at that point in the game. Is it justifiable as either the tackle or timewasting, though I'm not sure why a ref would think a team is wasting time at that point? I think it is. Was it a good second yellow to give at that stage of a game of that importance? No. Just a bad break, but it happens. Do I think it's why the Generals lost? Not really. But you can't say absolutely either. There was space for that banger where there hadn't been much space all game, and that could have been because there were 10 on the field instead of 11.
Finally, the discussion of the Generals' schedule is ridiculous. You have to play your conference mates. The ODAC even tries to help the top teams by not having a full round robin and giving the stronger teams more of the top half of the conference. And the Generals scheduled Lynchburg twice. So they made the most they could out of the ODAC.
Then you look at the Region. In the final Regional Rankings for Region VI, which includes the Generals, they played #2 (Emory) away, #3 (CNU) in season OOC and tournament both in Lexington, #4 (Lynchburg) twice in the season, once for the conference and once OOC, #5 (Mary Washington) was scheduled but canceled for COVID, #7 (Randolph) in the ODAC tournament, and #8 (NC Wes) in OOC play. The only Region VI Regionally Ranked team the Generals didn't have on the schedule at least once is UW-Whitewater, and that's because they are in Region VI thanks to the ridiculous nature of the C2C conference.
Add Ogelthorpe, SAA runner up, Hanover Region VIII #7, and Centre, the SAA champion, and it's ridiculous to criticize the schedule for anyone who does rudimentary analysis of what is going on in the Mid-Atlantic and South. The Generals trip to Atlanta to play Ogelthorpe and Emory was farther than Conn College or Amherst travelled all season until the Final Four. So arguably, the Generals worked harder to put up a better schedule, traveled more, and took on everyone of note in their Region. That's pretty much what you are supposed to do in DIII.
Once again, congratulations to the Camels on their season and National Championship. Well done and well deserved!
CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!
I don't know where you live... but Conn College to Bates is a whopping 239 miles. Colby is a whopping 282. Generals to Emory is 472 miles... It's a darn big country when you leave New England.
Quote from: camosfan on December 06, 2021, 09:59:57 PM
CC went to Maine to play Bates and Colby!
Conn College to Bates = 4 hours
Conn College to Colby = 4 1/2 hours
W&L to Atlanta (Oglethorpe & Emory) = 7 1/2 hours
Hmmm. Great minds think alike. ;)
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2021, 10:08:50 PM
Here is a great win-win for everyone the first weekend NESCACs are permitted to play...
Tufts goes to Chicago for North Park and Chicago..
I'd circle the date twice on my calendar, in red pen, if I had the chance to call a Tufts @ North Park game.
And I'm 100% certain that NPU head coach Kris Grahn would juggle his schedule as much as necessary to make it happen, on whichever date Tufts chose.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 06, 2021, 10:36:12 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2021, 10:08:50 PM
Here is a great win-win for everyone the first weekend NESCACs are permitted to play...
Tufts goes to Chicago for North Park and Chicago..
I'd circle the date twice on my calendar, in red pen, if I had the chance to call a Tufts @ North Park game.
And I'm 100% certain that NPU head coach Kris Grahn would juggle his schedule as much as necessary to make it happen, on whichever date Tufts chose.
I'm sure we could get ALL of those non-NESCAC teams to sign a contract tonight. And just imagine the NESCAC bragging rights after going 22-0 for the weekend.
If UMass-Boston, a regional public state school, could get to the West Coast and Whitworth to Pennsylvania there is zero reason Tufts can't get to Chicago...and all the others as well.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2021, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 08:49:43 PM
My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested. Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.
In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.
This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information. I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?
You obviously can say whatever you want. But how did they "maybe fail"? Why are you saying that? Because they lost in OT in a national semi?
And neither one of you countered the very specific info presented to you about their non-conference schedule or how many more NCAA tourney teams you think they should have played. And if they weren't battle tested how did they beat CNU and Messiah??? Or lose to Conn in OT. You guys act like they got to the Final Four (which usually counts as a huge success) and lost to Conn 5-0.
If you read closely what I said, I said maybe they tried to schedule a tough out of conference schedule but maybe failed...they out scored their opponents 17-2 in non conference....Please do not try to manipulate my words into implying that i said W&L failed by not winning a National championship. That is clearly not what I said.
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2021, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Novacat on December 06, 2021, 08:49:43 PM
My point, which I tried to use actual data to back it up.....is that if you are a school like W&L in a weaker conference (that yes, produced cupcakes) than others (I did not say NESCAC) I think you need to go out of your way to schedule tougher competition out of conference (which looks like they tried but maybe failed) so you can get more battle tested. Its an age-old strategy for basketball powerhouses like Gonzaga ( and Temple back in the 90s)who play in less competitive conferences.
In fact I actually said W&L's results speak for themselves. and in a prior thread I said how much I respected Conn's playing style and wished them well.
This is a message board where the only reason people join is to express opinions and share/learn information. I shared both an opinion and some information... And get called out for enjoying my "superiority"...Really?
You obviously can say whatever you want. But how did they "maybe fail"? Why are you saying that? Because they lost in OT in a national semi?
And neither one of you countered the very specific info presented to you about their non-conference schedule or how many more NCAA tourney teams you think they should have played. And if they weren't battle tested how did they beat CNU and Messiah??? Or lose to Conn in OT. You guys act like they got to the Final Four (which usually counts as a huge success) and lost to Conn 5-0.
If you read closely what I said, I said maybe they tried to schedule a tough out of conference schedule but maybe failed...they out scored their opponents 17-2 in non conference....Please do not try to manipulate my words into implying that i said W&L failed by not winning a National championship. That is clearly not what I said.
But you are fixated on the score instead of looking at the quality of the opponents they beat by that score. The score doesn't necessarily mean their opposition was weak, it could mean the Generals were good. We keep providing evidence that the opposition WAS good, the rankings, tournament success, and conference finishes of those teams.
You seem to struggle to accept the evidence and just keep saying that despite the quality of these teams, the Generals might have failed to put together a quality OOC schedule. All legitimate evidence after a long season indicates they did.
Novacat, you actually didn't make clear what you meant, but it didn't matter. Just on the schedule itself why why you say maybe failed? You never answered how many NCAA teams would be enough. They had way more than most and even fighting against the negative impact of some horrible records of teams in their conference ended up with a high SOS. You threw stuff out that you couldn't back up even loosely. And the other guy was even worse.
And you and the other guy STILL have failed to explain why this is a thing for you or how in the world you could make any conclusion about battle tested. You said you're not talking about their actual tournament performance or losing in the semis in OT, so why would "battle tested" even be an issue? Towards what end?
And please tell us if one of these or both are burner accounts.
Mr. Right....from 12-27-19....just fascinating and prescient...
Conn Ramblings:
One story to go under the radar this season was Conn College. Kenny Murphy retired and handed over the reins to Reuben Burk. Burk, 27, had only been at Conn for 1 year as an assistant and had bounced around like most young assistants do from school to school learning different styles and methods from as many Head Coaches as they can. These Assistants are trying to soak it up or at least that was what used to happen. Burk, who should forever live by the motto "life is about being in the right place at the right time" must have proven to Murphy and Conn his worth and that he knew what he was doing. You rarely see a Head Coach leave such a promising outfit, like Conn, with the potential to contend like Murphy did but here we are today. I was skeptical of the whole situation at first until I saw Conn play to open the season. Burk and his staff decided to turn Conn into a more possession oriented attacking team BUT you could tell he did not want Conn to lose its lock down defensive mindset in the process. I would say he succeeded expeditiously because overnight Conn was a much more entertaining team to watch and were still getting the results the team was used to. To make a deep NCAA run while in the process of overhauling your team's identity is no easy task. An entertaining style IMO is important in attracting and keeping students and local community at your Home games. More fans with more passion = players getting more pumped to produce for the crowd. A group of alums starting to show up at random Saturday afternoon Home games = only way for current players to thank alums for the support is to play hard and win. Conn attendance at Home this year improved steadily throughout the year and no question the winning was a big part of it but a small part of me hopes the style also had a hand in that as well.
Conn has now proven they can make a deep NCAA run. The next hurdle is the NCAA Final 4 / Tufts and frankly Conn has a ton of work to do to get there. Let me take an outsiders go at Conn. By the end of the year Conn looked to be in a 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 depending upon how you look at it but tactically there was no difference. Marcucci in net..LB Aquadro, CB Donelan, CB Stoneback, RB Stokes. Holding was Bocchetti with Butera and Djerdjaj in midfield. Noonan and Yeonas out wide with Tshuma up top. That is a pretty solid starting 11. Djerdjaj and Yeonas are studs. Noonan is a quick winger with skill who can finish, same goes for Thsuma. Conn is loaded in attack and are a really good countering team. The bench was ok but a bit thin. Ludwick played out wide and is a solid player that is a threat to score. Balbontin graduates with 9 career goals and 62 games played with 4 starts. To have 62 GP and 4 GS tells me Balbontin understood his role and did his job for the team. He was a good target and could hold the ball up top. Miranda comes off the bench or starts for Bocchetti sitting in front of the back 4. He is a good athlete that does his job. Conn also used a couple Frosh (Pinyochon, Robles,) that I have not seen enough of to get a read yet. Marvel is a Frosh I have seen at Tabor Academy and is a skilled player but Conn needs more help from its bench in 2020 if they are going to contend. Another issue is this team has a few to many players from Marion(MA),Malibu(CA), Riverside(CT), McLean(VA), Winnetka(IL) to name a few. More kids from the athletic rich St.Mary's Prep, like Stoneback, would be nice but this has always been an issue with Conn admissions. They need as many kids as they can get that can pay full pop. Still, bench production and roster manipulation are minor concerns in the big picture that can be fixed over time.
I think the one position that needs to be shored up is holding midfielder. Bocchetti and Miranda are both good athletic players with skill that need to be on the field but just not in this position. WAY to many teams(Tufts, Swathmore come to mind) absolutely sliced and diced thru the middle of Conn's defensive 3rd at will and were getting some decent looks. Conn's CB's need more help then what the holding midfielders are giving them defensively. Opposing teams and especially opposing players HAVE TO THINK TWICE about attacking thru the middle of the field and wide guys(think Lane and Tasker) need to think twice about cutting inside on Conn. Conn needs like a 90 minute Zach Trevorrow with those crazed Hawaiian game day eyes at holding midfielder. POINT--This position requires a nutter with a genuine desire to be competitive when your team is being challenged. Someone needs to step up here, tackle hard and hunt the ball. Maybe Miranda or Bocchetti can change their game a bit?
Captains this season were JR CB Donelan and SR RB Stokes. Interestingly, Conn loses 4 key Seniors but 2 of them have eligibility(Stokes and Aquadro). Butera is a big loss in midfield and would have to be in my Top 5 Set Piece takers in Nescac if I am looking for a goal from about 25-30 yards. He scored 2 against Catholic and Midd that I witnessed Actually, since I mentioned Trevorrow(Tufts) he would be in my Top 5 set piece takers as well in Nescac. So Donelan will be Captain as a SR but does Marcucci join him? Personally, this is most definitely Augie Djerdjaj's team now if anyone had any doubts anyways so I would make him a Captain as a JR along with Donelan and Marcucci. Djerdjaj is an old school player who has all the attributes of a top Soccer player and is an absolute danger man in attack. He hits some of the sweetest thru balls in Nescac and can finish as he had 9 Goals. He needs to take this team over and has the perfect Nescac villain futbol name and talent to put daggers in Amherst, Tufts and the rest. More importantly, Djerdjaj does not mind throwing his body around. In the match at Tufts in the regular season, Conn and Djerdjaj dominated long stretches of the ball and play but just were not clinical in the final 3rd. Still, the one player I saw give Aroh(Tufts) a game was Djerdjaj. At the very least he kept Aroh a little more busy than usual and freed up more space on the field for his teammates. Strangely, Aroh's body language is sometimes quite humorous as he almost looks annoyed to have to clean up his teammates mistakes, as if the big King cannot be bothered and he points to his little minions(Van Brewer, Enge) to do all the gritty grunt work.
More Notes:
-Conn MUST commit to absolute fitness in the offseason. I see a couple players that would benefit from being in top fitness and could be better overall players.
-Even with all the possession, Conn managed to have less SOG than they did in 2018 and in more games. Is it concerning? not really but something to be aware of and more importantly...why?
-Tshuma, Noonan, Yeonas and Djerdjaj are a real solid and dangerous attacking 4 that combine well with each other especially Djerdjaj and Thsuma.
-Stoneback and Donelan are two solid starting CB's but who will be playing wingback next season?
We do have to take a quick look at what happened in the Elite 8 because Head Coach Burk adjusted his whole lineup for the Tufts match. He sacked the LB Aquadro and put the speedy winger Yeonas at LB. He then moved Djerdjaj up top with Thsuma and Noonan wide. Butera took Djerdjaj's spot and then both Bocchetti and Miranda were in midfield. That is a TON of moving parts and possibly made the game more uncomfortable than necessary for Conn. Burk must not have liked the Aquadro v Lane(Tufts) matchup and while I agree I also do not see moving one of your best attacking players to wingback just for his speed. The better option would have been to just have Stokes and Aquadro take 2-3 steps back when defending quick wingers like Tasker and Lane and do the best they can. Conn's starting lineup had been in a consistent stable place and to shake it up just for supposed matchup problems can/will have consequences sometimes. Kind of like Lane absolutely catching Yeonas napping two minutes into the game by scoring a beauty before Yeonas knew what had happened. That had to be a massive punch to the gut for the Head Coach but he's young and will learn and about 20 minutes in he got his original lineup on the field. IMO Conn outplayed Tufts 18 to 18 but Tufts was clinical finishing and defending and outplayed Conn where it matters. Conn's attacking third left a ton to be desired.
Chiming in to add that the trip for W&L to Hanover (and Centre that weekend) was a second 7+ hour trip (461 miles). I do think we can't fault W&L for making an effort to find good games.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 06, 2021, 01:06:18 PM
Is the parade in New London today?
Gotta say I remain stunned at the deafening silence about Conn Coll winning the title as regards a large majority of frequent posters/visitors.
Here is the link to New London's local newspaper and writer Gavin Keefe who did a great job covering this team's run. Again the final article he wrote when they returned to school was the best one. Good quotes from the players and HC.
https://www.theday.com/
New England Soccer Journal will cover it and I would guess someone like Bocchetti will get the cover in an upcoming issue like Tufts Drew Stern did in 2019. Would not be surprised to see future COY Burk on a cover in February.
https://www.nesoccerjournal.com/
Quote from: Another Mom on December 07, 2021, 05:33:41 AM
Chiming in to add that the trip for W&L to Hanover (and Centre that weekend) was a second 7+ hour trip (461 miles). I do think we can't fault W&L for making an effort to find good games.
I think Novacat and Camos were just promoting their conference and I think that is great. Novacat probably did not need to slash W&L in the process but he was trying to make his point. They have not been on here for years and years like some of us and know nothing of prior histories and arguments and even crazed behavior(one of which would be me and frankly I was not the most sober person back then). Not sure how you fix that or how to introduce prior sore spots or what not. Probably best to make one point and move on, but to each his own. That is the best thing about coming on here is there are no rules and roles we just all jump into whatever we feel like doing. Productive chaos.
When I was coaching at Tufts we looked into the potential of hosting a "Battle of Boston" where two top teams would fly out to play us and Brandeis but it just doesn't work with the shortened NESCAC schedule. Without that first week of the season its almost impossible logistically to fit in an extra doubleheader. So until the NESCAC administration drops their holier than thou mindset we won't see Amherst/Tufts/Conn/Midd playing any of the top national powers out of conference.
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 07, 2021, 09:22:10 AM
When I was coaching at Tufts we looked into the potential of hosting a "Battle of Boston" where two top teams would fly out to play us and Brandeis but it just doesn't work with the shortened NESCAC schedule. Without that first week of the season its almost impossible logistically to fit in an extra doubleheader. So until the NESCAC administration drops their holier than thou mindset we won't see Amherst/Tufts/Conn/Midd playing any of the top national powers out of conference.
First, following up on Mr.Right above I have zero interest in making things more difficult for Novacat, Camos, or anyone really. I think I've done more poking and prodding and pushing for ways to increase participation than anyone (with the exception of SimpleCoach actually introducing some fresh ideas). Just before this latest bit I endorsed that Novacat had come up with an interesting tidbit with no NESCAC losing to anyone in the tournament out of conference. I agreed that that was a very impressive finding. We've reached pretty quick agreement on a couple of other things in the past few weeks as well. And then the W&L thing seemed to get raised directly out of Novacat's observation via Camos and then endorsed by Novacat where W&L hadn't even been mentioned. I think it was fair to ask what the point was, and if the point wasn't about having to do with W&L's performance and end-result, then it seems even more fair to question what it was all about. I love that Mr.Right is the reasonable peacemaker here (not sarcastic)...there is a lot of history and we've come a long way as he alluded to. Probably more than a third or maybe half of my and his negative karma points came from each other (and I'd guess I got a couple or six from him this Fall which is absolutely fine if so) and now I'm regularly commending his contributions and re-posting a fascinating post he did in late December, 2019 in the middle of the night lol. Anyway, just pointing out ridiculous, childish beefing between a guy I'm guessing is in his early 40s and a guy now 62 can morph into something more productive where he's appreciated and I'm at least (barely?) tolerated. Earlier this season he seemed to think I was hoping for another Covid shutdown so I could revel in some kind of "told you so" prediction narcissistic glory, with the suggestion I did that in 2020. Not true in either instance. I followed along like everyone else and I didn't feel unique with my impressions of what seemed so clear as we went through it, and I was very disappointed myself for a lot of reasons including that 2020 was another great opportunity for my team to succeed. All that said, do I need to do a better job of letting go and dropping little entanglements that clearly appear to be going nowhere except for fueling increased ill will? Absolutely. 110%. But what is the fun in that lol?
Now, in response to D4 above and partly apropos of the W&L discussion, I was expecting this standard NESCAC explanation and that's partly why I posted NESCACs not only playing those other teams, but also
traveling to do so. I know it's true, but I also don't fully buy it. I'm going to post something below that I posted during the Covid year that touches on the topic. But first, the irony to me is that criticism directed at W&L was even more interesting to me in part because W&L is a full-fledged academic peer of not just the NESCACs overall, but the top half of the NESCAC, and so the ease with which it could be suggested that W&L should do
even more when they already had a very competitive SOS and after TWO 7+ hour trips when NESCACs can't/won't do even one just grates in an unpleasant way (and I am by no means a W&L homer and have no personal stake in it). Anyway, on to what I wrote in July, 2020 suggesting that some divergences of what individual NESCACs do might be good in the long run for individual members as well as the conference writ large.
7-7-20 (this thread and on the topic of Covid restrictions for Fall, 2020)
I find the NESCAC situation fascinating from a sociological point of view. I actually would argue that a split scenario -- at least several NESCACs do play while some don't -- would be good for the conference and all the schools in it. On the one hand, the NESCAC has tremendous brand identity that benefits all of the members, no doubt some more than others...and certainly one can argue that the relatively strict agreements that the schools share in terms of season start dates, number of games, recruiting and "tips," etc have contributed to the strength of the brand.
By way of comparison with the NESCAC's "big brother" or "big sister," the Ivy League, the brand benefits and shared agreements on how athletics function have been critical in shaping and building the traditions of both leagues. Now, I suppose this could happen, but I personally can't imagine an Ivy breaking from the rest and doing something on their own, except maybe in sports where not all members participate. I'm not sure NESCAC is as iconic as the Ivy, but certainly there are a lot of similarities, including what I assume is an intended prestige factor attendant to the leagues and their members, which, even if not intentional, serves to distinguish the leagues from other leagues.
So given some obvious and massive benefits of these tradition-rich leagues, how might one argue that they might benefit from making more individual, and perhaps more dynamic, decisions? I personally for some time have had some ambivalence about the insularity/exclusivity of the NESCAC. It's part of what some fans love about it, and what some fans of other schools grate against. I think some of the schools, mostly those that many would characterize as in the lower half or lower third of the NESCAC reputation-wise, are known more for being a "NESCAC school" than their own individual identity. I don't want to get too tangential, but one might argue that a few schools have ridden the coattails of Williams, Amherst, Midd, Bowdoin, Wesleyan.....Tufts often has been considered in its own category (as more of a UAA-like school). I don't know enough about Hamilton (I think very similar to Colby) to comment, but then there is a school like Colby pushing hard to push into the top tier and its best chance to do just that might by trying to separate itself identity-wise while also aggressively pursuing rankings-type criteria (USNWR).
To get back of topic, Colby might be just the kind of school that would benefit from doing something different relative to its peers. I haven't checked recently, but while Bates certainly is a peer to Colby and Bowdoin, Bates hasn't had the kind of endowment of other NESCACs, and so perhaps Bates, Conn, and Trinity are under more financial pressure than others (and therefore perhaps more reluctant to opt out of Fall athletics). That's all conjecture. Again, I have no inside info on any of this.
At any rate, in terms of the potential upside to the whole group of the group not operating in lockstep (and aside from the financial arguments), I could see really savvy administrators looking towards the future and thinking about how to preserve much of the prestige while also promoting increased diversity and individuality....for the express purpose of impacting the insularity issue. I may be falling prey to huge recency bias, but we are in a time of questioning a lot of iconic symbolism. I think there definitely is a case that can be made for the insularity/exclusivity becoming a more tangible negative. I wish I could remember the noted educational expert who a few months ago as the potential long-term of Covid was being considered spoke very strongly about Ivy, Ivy-like and NESCAC, NESCAC-type schools, post-Covid, becoming even more like "finishing schools" for the elite and super-elite classes in America more so than they already are. The guy actually used the words "finishing schools," which being from the South, used to be a descriptor for women's colleges like Sweet Briar, Mary Baldwin, and Randolph-Macon Woman's College (now Randolph since going co-ed)...all in Virginia.
I rambled more than I wanted, but the bottom line is I could see some NESCAC schools breaking from the pack as a very good thing (and there may be a multitude of ways to do this beyond athletics as well). And all that said, I'll still be surprised if some NESCACs do break off in the end, and I'd be shocked to see it in the Ivy League.Related to the above, at the time we were discussing this stuff in Summer, 2020, Colby definitely and maybe Midd and one or two others WERE considering doing something different than their brethren. It would just take one...like Colby going to California to play C-M-S and Redlands that very first NESCAC weekend...and that might lead to some real change. Some NESCACs I think would definitely benefit in terms of building brands from aggressive differentiators more so than reliance on, for lack of a better word, more monolithic associations with their peers.
It is interesting to note a rather muted response from the NESCAC crowd (yes, I know there have been a few congratulation shouts, but not a lot by any means). Conn. certainly deserves kudos for its feat alone but also the fact that aside from an Elite 8 last time around they weren't exactly among peoples' favorites: Tufts and Amherst are the two most would put their money on if expecting the winner to come from the NESCAC. As far as neutrals go, though, I think in a greater sense part of it is people probably being tired of the NESCAC winning six of the last seven national titles. When Tufts won its first the most recent NESCAC winner was Middlebury in 2007 (exactly seven years prior...to think it has been seven years since Tufts' first is interesting) and many were just happy to see someone other than Messiah so the novelty factor was there. Now, despite CC knocking out Tufts and winning its first title, the fact that it is a NESCAC probably dampens the novelty that would otherwise be present.
Yeah I don't agree with the sentiments on W&L. They did everything they reasonably could and are clearly now one of the top 5 programs in the country at the moment.
The NESCAC thing is a real issue. Most teams start there season on a Tuesday then that weekend is when we see these big cross country trips. For some reason, the NESCAC administration in their infinite wisdom does not allow teams to play that weekend. So we start the following Tuesday/Wednesday and then go straight into a conference game on Saturday. The way its currently configured there really is almost no flexibility to squeeze in a big trip double header. I think with all the money Colby has invested they would schedule a Chicago road trip in a heart beat to differentiate themselves. At the moment the constraints seem to be logistical and timing more than financial or desire.
This was the first season the conference allowed longer pre-seasons more in line with the rest of the country so maybe they are finally moving in the right direction. But i'll believe it when I see it. The NESCAC just loves being high and mighty and thinking they are better than everyone else too much to change.
I think people overestimate the NESCAC camaraderie. I did not want Conn to win and I did not want Amherst to win. I would have rooted for just about any other team. Obviously Conn should be super proud of what they accomplished and I know they won't care for one second what I think of the matter.
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 07, 2021, 01:08:15 PM
Yeah I don't agree with the sentiments on W&L. They did everything they reasonably could and are clearly now one of the top 5 programs in the country at the moment.
The NESCAC thing is a real issue. Most teams start there season on a Tuesday then that weekend is when we see these big cross country trips. For some reason, the NESCAC administration in their infinite wisdom does not allow teams to play that weekend. So we start the following Tuesday/Wednesday and then go straight into a conference game on Saturday. The way its currently configured there really is almost no flexibility to squeeze in a big trip double header. I think with all the money Colby has invested they would schedule a Chicago road trip in a heart beat to differentiate themselves. At the moment the constraints seem to be logistical and timing more than financial or desire.
This was the first season the conference allowed longer pre-seasons more in line with the rest of the country so maybe they are finally moving in the right direction. But i'll believe it when I see it. The NESCAC just loves being high and mighty and thinking they are better than everyone else too much to change.
Fair enough.
I just think what the traditions were in 1985 don't have to remain totally the same in 2021. If that first in-conference game got moved to the following Tues or Weds or Thurs then NESCACs in theory could travel. It's just odd to see suggestions that similar schools should travel far distances and actually in fact do so and still get whacked. I mean gestalt flips can be helpful if one doesn't do a knee-jerk rejection of them out of hand. The W&L Prez and Trustees could tomorrow say no travel outside of 60 miles or no games that same week you all don't have games. That would end it right there. I totally get it, but the comeback of we just don't that or we have some special/arcane deal where we can't do that raises the question of why not and/or why there gets to be an assumption that other schools for whatever reason (elitism?) do get to stand on a similar claim. And if we just accept that nothing can be changed, then the simplest answer to the criticism (I know you said you don't agree with the criticism) would be for W&L to simply say we don't travel at all either because our academics are too important.
If there is a change in NESCAC my guess is that it starts with Colby, which, while already superb 10, 15, 30 years ago, has morphed to another level and partly by doing some different things...and not by waiting for the peers or permission to make massive enhancements while their endowment balloons and reputation skyrockets.
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 07, 2021, 01:13:19 PM
I think people overestimate the NESCAC camaraderie. I did not want Conn to win and I did not want Amherst to win. I would have rooted for just about any other team. Obviously Conn should be super proud of what they accomplished and I know they won't care for one second what I think of the matter.
Love this. I'm just kidding you....but you literally were just going on about NESCAC sportsmanship (or lack thereof) a week or two ago.
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 07, 2021, 01:13:19 PM
I think people overestimate the NESCAC camaraderie. I did not want Conn to win and I did not want Amherst to win. I would have rooted for just about any other team. Obviously Conn should be super proud of what they accomplished and I know they won't care for one second what I think of the matter.
I want Centennial teams to get out of the first weekend, but past that, I'm not rooting for F&M, Haverford or Swat... Just too much history of rivalry for me to swallow that. I was rooting heavily for WashC, and wouldn't root against Gburg, Dickinson or Ursinus.
(I grew up in Ann Arbor, lifelong MI fan... While I want B1G teams to do well on the national stage, I can only stomach success from OSU and MSU in the abstract... Can't actually root for them in real time. Nope. Not ever.)
Thoughts on the Final Four: All 4 teams were deserving of being there and any of them could have won it with a break here or there. I think both W&L and Chicago played challenging schedules that were about as good as they could make them. Chicago has an extra week to play with due to not having a UAA tournament, so that frees them up to play 2 more non-conference games, and they obviously opted to challenge themselves as much as possible.
Some thoughts on the whole NESCAC scheduling debate. @d4_Pace is correct in how the logistical constraints imposed by the conference make it impractical. Middlebury this year played all their non-conference games on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Given that they are not allowed to compete before Labor Day and that the conference schedule begins the first weekend, there is not really room to engage in long trips outside New England, even if the desire to do so were there. The last weekend in October is for the 4 quarterfinal NESCAC games, and the following weekend is for conference semis and finals.
In terms of non-conference schedules, many of the NESCAC schools operate the same way the SEC does in football. When your conference strength of schedule is so strong, many will choose the non-conference games as a chance to pick up some easy wins to balance out the conference meatgrinder and ensure a better overall record. The Maine schools in particular would find it much more challenging to do a midweek trip to play a top caliber opponent than would Conn or Tufts
The whole "we don't want student athletes missing class" thing is how they wind up with Saturday-Sunday doubleheaders. For example, in both 2019 and 2021, Middlebury played Conn and Amherst on back to back days, one home and one away. This year, they had a two game set with Bates and Tufts the following weekend. Now with all that being said, I was surprised that for Middlebury's first and second round games, they arrived at Franklin and Marshall on a Thursday, trained on Friday, and played Sat-Sun.
Thanks to all for a great season on the boards here.
I know this will shock everyone, but I can do animosity.
As a lifelong UK basketball diehard who grew up 40 miles from Chapel Hill and Durham I absolutely loathe UNC and Duke and especially Duke (and for whatever reason whenever I think of Duke I think of Tufts). I could never root for either one and when they play each other I just can't get past desperately wanting both to lose.
And I always pick the wrong teams. Growing up I was a huge Dallas Cowboys, joined the fan club, and had an autographed 8x10 glossy of Bullet Bob Hayes. I cried and cried and cried when Bart Starr snuck in from the one yard one with 13 seconds left behind Jerry Kramer. I was sitting in the Spectrum next to my father (in the Duke section because that's how we got tickets) when Laettner hit that shot to beat UK and The Unforgettables in OT 104-103.
In D3 soccer I equally despise Tufts and OWU, and I'm ambivalent about Messiah and Calvin. I hate Tufts so bad I cheer for Amherst against them.
There's a difference between rooting for someone and giving credit or tipping your cap respectfully in defeat or after a rival goes on to glory. I've congratulated Tufts before, and I don't think I've written a single negative word about OWU all season.
As for the NESCAC you all are partly making my point with the "there is nothing we or they can do" narrative as though the restrictions are enshrined for all eternity and the rest of us with presumed greater flexibility should just conceded that. Is the NESCAC organization more powerful than the NCAA? Couldn't a school like Colby file a suit? Would NESCAC security show up at the airport and block Colby from boarding a flight to LAX?
What would be the rational for a NESCAC team, currently to take on additional expense of travelling 400-500 miles to play an out of conference game? The US goes to Europe to play friendlies when preparing for a tournament, European team don't come here.
I mean I think that's a little of the NESCAC arrogance that people dislike.
I agree the Nescac should change but I think it's one of those old institutions that is set in its ways to its own detriment. I mean they just started playing every other team in football like 3 years ago.
One day they will change nothing last forever but hard to see that getting much attention at the moment.
Quote from: camosfan on December 07, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
What would be the rational for a NESCAC team, currently to take on additional expense of travelling 400-500 miles to play an out of conference game? The US goes to Europe to play friendlies when preparing for a tournament, European team don't come here.
I love it. Football is like war (except in war the bigger teams always play away games).
Remember history though, the Romans used to say "The Britons make poor slaves", then later, the Briton was known as the empire on which the sun never set.
I say that to say, the Liberty League will rise again :)
I don't doubt Liberty will rise again, life is a cycle, as a matter of fact was expecting stronger finish from Vassar and RPI, RIT had a season to build on!
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 08, 2021, 08:41:22 AM
Quote from: camosfan on December 07, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
What would be the rational for a NESCAC team, currently to take on additional expense of travelling 400-500 miles to play an out of conference game? The US goes to Europe to play friendlies when preparing for a tournament, European team don't come here.
I love it. Football is like war (except in war the bigger teams always play away games).
Remember history though, the Romans used to say "The Britons make poor slaves", then later, the Briton was known as the empire on which the sun never set.
Yes, Britain became known as the empire on which the sun never sets ... thirteen and a half centuries after the Romans had abandoned the island, that is. That's not very encouraging for those of us who want to see the NESCACers get their comeuppance on the pitch. Who's willing to wait until the year 3370 for the NESCAC to stop dominating the D3 men's soccer tourney? ;)
More importantly, between Rome's abandonment of Britain in the early fifth century and the rise of the British Empire in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, most of the island of Britain -- including all of the fertile and useful parts -- had been conquered and settled by Germanic invaders (the Angles, Saxons, Frisians, and Jutes), then infiltrated and partially conquered and settled by
another group of Germanic invaders (the Vikings), and then re-conquered and ruled by an aristocratic class of French-speaking Germanic invaders (the Normans). The languages that they spoke, and which produced the language in which you and I type posts for this board, weren't and isn't the least bit British in the linguistic sense. It's a Germanic language with a heavy Romance overlay, and it's named after one of those Germanic invader tribes (the Angles, to be precise). And the culture, laws, and folkways that those people developed into what was then disseminated worldwide by the British Empire (including North America) isn't particularly British in the sense of springing from ancient Keltic roots, either. The English (and Lowland Scots) are Germans whose tongue has been gussied up by French overlords, Latin prelates, and scholastic Greek (and, eventually, by colonial terms that washed back up on the island's shores).
Meanwhile, those Britons whom the Romans said made poor slaves remained intact as a people only in Wales, the Scottish highlands and offshore islands, and the tip of the Cornish peninsula, and have for the past millennium mostly been landless peasants lorded over by English-speaking outsiders. Their own languages, which descend from those spoken by those selfsame Britons whom the Romans derided, are either maintaining a fragile minority status in a small corner of the island due largely to heavy-handed government intervention on its behalf (Welsh), on total life support (Scots Gaelic), or have become extinct entirely (Cornish).
TL;DR: You should've opted for a better and more historically sound analogy, for the sake of your beloved Liberty League (two words gifted to us by the Romans, BTW) if nothing else. ;)
[/British History 101]