https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/2021-ncaa-division-iii-mens-all-americans-announced/
K Jack Viles Jr. Southwestern University
D Brady Johnston Sr. Trinity University (Texas)
D Johnny Kraemer Jr. North Central College
D Jake Lent-Koop Jr. Messiah University
D Jack Rawlins Sr. Washington & Lee University
D Drew Van Andel Sr. Calvin University
M Calvin Aroh Sr. Tufts University
M Blake Aronson Sr. SUNY Cortland
M Victor Gaulmin So. St. Olaf College
M Hector Gomez* Sr. Ohio Wesleyan University
F Evan Blow Sr. Randolph College
F Nilton de Andrade* Sr. University of Massachusetts-Boston
F German Giammattei* Sr. Amherst College
F Amer Lukovic Fr. Montclair State University
F Michael Meese Fr. Trinity University (Texas)
F Sergio Rivas Jr. Washington University (Mo.)
K Sid Marquardt So. North Central College
D Emelson Barbosa Jr. University of Massachusetts-Boston
D Jacob Galan Sr. Trinity University (Texas)
D Jared Hecht So. Gustavus Adolphus College
D Luke Muther Jr. Kenyon College
M Samuel Bass Jr. Washington & Lee University
M Luke Brautigam Sr. Messiah University
M Josiah Crawford Jr. Montclair State University
M Augie Djerdjaj Jr. Connecticut College
M Michael Kutsanzira Jr. Washington & Lee University
F Oliver Akintade So. Calvin University
F Drake Byrd Sr. Bowdoin College
F Ndubueze Henry Jr. Maryville College
F Josh Hughes Sr. Hanover College
F Will Isaac Jr. Otterbein University
F Luke Mega Jr. University of Lynchburg
F Hakeem Morgan So St. Olaf College
K Griffin Potter Sr. Virginia Wesleyan University
D Cristian Aleman Sr. Wabash College
D Scott Cebollero Sr. SUNY Cortland
D Ryan Kuster Sr. Alvernia University
D Harry Nevins Sr. Swarthmore College
M Javier Beltran Jr. Roger Williams University
M Ben Brandt Sr. University of Chicago
M Fraser Burns Sr. Trinity University (Texas)
M Raonne Dias Jr. Kean University
M Gustav Ericsson Sr. North Park University
M Trevor Goodling Sr. Messiah University
M Peter Novoa Sr. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
M Peder Olsen** Sr. North Park University
M William Turrittin* Sr. John Carroll University
F Jaggar Brooker So. Ohio Wesleyan University
F Chase Gwynn Sr. Gordon College
F Anthony Ruggiero Sr. SUNY Cortland
The Senior College All-region and All-America selection process begins with coaches who are members of United Soccer Coaches College Services program being eligible to nominate up to four of their field players and a goalkeeper for postseason recognition. Coaches rank their players in order. After the nomination period closes, coaches begin an all-opponent voting period where they see only those players nominated from teams they played during the regular season and select up to 22 players (1st and 2nd team). An All-America formula is then applied to the voting which includes factors such as the player ranking, success of the team and total votes received from eligible voters. This system is used for NCAA Division I, II and III programs.
Scratching my head at how UChicago's Gillespie and Wada get left out as defenders. They're the two best in the UAA and are nationally-elite for a defense that played the hardest SOS in the country and shut out 13 teams...
Quote from: blue_jays on December 02, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Scratching my head at how UChicago's Gillespie and Wada get left out as defenders. They're the two best in the UAA and are nationally-elite for a defense that played the hardest SOS in the country and shut out 13 teams...
Absolutely, just as I was scratching my head that North Central's Enzo Fuschino and his assistants beat out Chicago's Pat Flinn and his assistants for the USC's Region VIII Staff of the Year award. That's not to take away any credit from Enzo for putting the once-moribund NCC men's soccer program into the top half of the CCIW and producing the first-ever D3 tourney appearance for the Cardinals. Those are significant achievements. But let's be honest about what he did in 2021; North Central's gaudy record this year was courtesy of a really weak schedule, and as far as getting into the D3 tourney is concerned, the Cards got there in large part because Wheaton did the heavy lifting for them in the CCIW tourney semifinals by upsetting North Park. Moreover, upon getting into the tourney, the Cards were bounced in the opening round on a neutral campus by a less-than-impressive Loras side.
Flinn, on the other hand, has completely retooled the Maroons in the three years he's been head coach. Almost the entire Chicago roster consists of players that he has brought in as the head man in that time. And the Maroons haven't missed a beat, as he has them back in the Final Four this season. Chicago should've won that award, not North Central.
But that was only a warmup for today's travesty. How NPU's Peder Olsen only got third-team All-American is beyond me. For crying out loud, he had a 20-9-49 season, capping off a 150-point career -- and he was no cherry-picker, either, as he was never anything less than a strong and active defensive player as a midfielder. He was ripped off. And as I look at this list I see that Johnny Kraemer from -- guess who? -- North Central made first team. Look, Kraemer's a very solid defender, but he's not first-team material, no way, no how. I think it's arguable as to whether or not he belongs on the All-American list at all. I strongly believe that Griffin Wada of Chicago should've had his spot.
I am very down on the USC. This has reinforced my view that the d3soccer.com All-American team is more valid (and let's hope that Christan & Co. put it out before February this time), and that the USC has a good-old-boys vibe in which Enzo Fuschino is regarded as one of the guys and Pat Flinn apparently isn't.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2021, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on December 02, 2021, 12:01:58 PM
Scratching my head at how UChicago's Gillespie and Wada get left out as defenders. They're the two best in the UAA and are nationally-elite for a defense that played the hardest SOS in the country and shut out 13 teams...
Absolutely, just as I was scratching my head that North Central's Enzo Fuschino and his assistants beat out Chicago's Pat Flinn and his assistants for the USC's Region VIII Staff of the Year award. That's not to take away any credit from Enzo for putting the once-moribund NCC men's soccer program into the top half of the CCIW and producing the first-ever D3 tourney appearance for the Cardinals. Those are significant achievements. But let's be honest about what he did in 2021; North Central's gaudy record this year was courtesy of a really weak schedule, and as far as getting into the D3 tourney is concerned, the Cards got there in large part because Wheaton did the heavy lifting for them in the CCIW tourney semifinals by upsetting North Park. Moreover, upon getting into the tourney, the Cards were bounced in the opening round on a neutral campus by a less-than-impressive Loras side.
Flinn, on the other hand, has completely retooled the Maroons in the three years he's been head coach. Almost the entire Chicago roster consists of players that he has brought in as the head man in that time. And the Maroons haven't missed a beat, as he has them back in the Final Four this season. Chicago should've won that award, not North Central.
But that was only a warmup for today's travesty. How NPU's Peder Olsen only got third-team All-American is beyond me. For crying out loud, he had a 20-9-49 season, capping off a 150-point career -- and he was no cherry-picker, either, as he was never anything less than a strong and active defensive player as a midfielder. He was ripped off. And as I look at this list I see that Johnny Kraemer from -- guess who? -- North Central made first team. Look, Kraemer's a very solid defender, but he's not first-team material, no way, no how. I think it's arguable as to whether or not he belongs on the All-American list at all. I strongly believe that Griffin Wada of Chicago should've had his spot.
I am very down on the USC. This has reinforced my view that the d3soccer.com All-American team is more valid (and let's hope that Christan & Co. put it out before February this time), and that the USC has a good-old-boys vibe in which Enzo Fuschino is regarded as one of the guys and Pat Flinn apparently isn't.
Agree with you on all points. Olson was one of the best players in the nation and should have been First Team unquestionably.
The USC picks this year for both All-Region and All-American were extremely lacking and nonsensical. Wada was 2nd Team All-Region... as the UAA's Defensive Player of the Year... And Gillespie is second on the team in scoring as a center back, that's how involved he is in all aspects of the team. If anything, he got better as the year went on and might be the team's best player currently.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/1170
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/9
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/421
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/422
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/32
Take a look at the goalkeeping stats linked above.
The USC system is broken. The only candidates for the All American teams are those who get first team in their own region. If they screw up the regional choices, that has an impact on the national awards.
No disrespect to Jack Viles, but how on earth is he the first team all-American goalkeeper? His team played three regionally ranked opponents, went 0-2-1, and he gave up 5 goals to the one NCAA tournament team he faced in Trinity. The only category where he is in the top 20 is in shutouts, where he is tied for 4th.
Compare that resume to the following goalkeepers:
Connor Robinson, John Carroll
Erik Lauta, Tufts
Ryan Grady, Middlebury
Calvin Walters, Chicago
Daniel Wunder, Calvin
Sam Maidenburg, Conn
Sid Marquardt, North Central
Sam Altman Farrell, Franklin and Marshall
I excluded Hope-Gund from Amherst because he was not the starter for the whole season, but his resume also compares favorably to Viles'.
All of the above had much better statistical seasons against stronger competition and led their teams to, and in some cases deep into, the NCAA tournament.
This is just like the national poll where the top team in each region gets placed into the national poll regardless of how much sense it actually makes. I am completely on board with @Gregory Sager's comments.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on December 02, 2021, 03:12:17 PM
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/1170
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/9
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/individual/421
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/422
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/32
Take a look at the goalkeeping stats linked above.
The USC system is broken. The only candidates for the All American teams are those who get first team in their own region. If they screw up the regional choices, that has an impact on the national awards.
No disrespect to Jack Viles, but how on earth is he the first team all-American goalkeeper? His team played three regionally ranked opponents, went 0-2-1, and he gave up 5 goals to the one NCAA tournament team he faced in Trinity. The only category where he is in the top 20 is in shutouts, where he is tied for 4th.
Compare that resume to the following goalkeepers:
Connor Robinson, John Carroll
Erik Lauta, Tufts
Ryan Grady, Middlebury
Calvin Walters, Chicago
Daniel Wunder, Calvin
Sam Maidenburg, Conn
Sid Marquardt, North Central
Sam Altman Farrell, Franklin and Marshall
I excluded Hope-Gund from Amherst because he was not the starter for the whole season, but his resume also compares favorably to Viles'.
All of the above had much better statistical seasons against stronger competition and led their teams to, and in some cases deep into, the NCAA tournament.
This is just like the national poll where the top team in each region gets placed into the national poll regardless of how much sense it actually makes. I am completely on board with @Gregory Sager's comments.
Oof, that's rough. I'm confident the D3soccer.com All-Americans will be much more reflective of reality.
Don't put a lot of stock in AA teams (particularly the USC one) but I would have had Cano of Tufts somewhere in there...8g, 5a as a winger and arguably his team's biggest attacking threat. Obviously wingers nowadays can act more as "inside forwards" rather than guys going to the byline and crossing so goal production is perhaps up overall but Braun got 2x AA with 10 goals as a CF (both years).
One thing I'm always curious about, home-cooking on goalie stats.
It's very difficult to fudge G and A stats, pretty cut-and-dried. Goalie stats, in terms of what is determined a shot vs. errant pass, or even a shot on goal vs. not, can start to get a little suspect. (The SOG then directly bleeds into the Save % stat.)
This coming from a guy that has a few line items in the books that I raise my eyebrows over because it's such an outlier to other years (Saves in a season).
You can't cherry-pick when you're gonna be a straight down the line systems guy that defends the system and its process against all comers, except for when....
Well, I guess you can, but still...
A little pushback on the SoS argument. Should that be a consideration? Maybe. But surely it's possible that the best player in the country isn't dependent on scheduling outside of the player's control and possibly (even if rarely) not relevant to how good the player is.
As I suggested in another thread, there are too many teams and too many players in D3 playing against variable levels to lump them all together and get these things right (or more right as even when the D3soccer teams come out there will be significant disagreements, omissions, etc).
I'd be curious to hear the details about how the D3soccer.com selections work. I wonder how much comments by posters here over the season and at times like these influence those selections, and whether there is any kind of "make up call" factor. Many of us, including me, believe the D3soccer poll and AA selections are better, and I would still agree with that, but is there even a sliver of our view on that related to most of us here (and possibly those who decide from D3soccer) being in the same echo chamber?
And none of the above should be construed to suggest that I disagree with any comments regarding particular players mentioned above. I'd have TVB from Tufts, Wada, Yeonas, Twigg, etc. I wouldn't have 4 from Trinity or 2 from UMass-Boston. There are 3 players for Messiah. I'm not even sure they got the right Messiah players even if conceding on Messiah getting 3. I never heard of any of those GKs. That said, even though I watch a ton of D3 soccer, I don't see enough and have never watched some of these players, and I wouldn't trust myself to pick a team that wasn't heavily slanted towards who I know the most about. Sure, you can say that you have seen the players like comparing players in the same conference, the same region, or even the same team, but decisions may not be made in a head to head kind of way that some suggest. And it's obvious that some schools have better advocates than others.
It's like doing a weekly poll. Once you start doing them, it's a lot harder than one thinks.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2021, 04:51:25 PM
You can't cherry-pick when you're gonna be a straight down the line systems guy that defends the system and its process against all comers, except for when....
Well, I guess you can, but still...
A little pushback on the SoS argument. Should that be a consideration? Maybe. But surely it's possible that the best player in the country isn't dependent on scheduling outside of the player's control and possibly (even if rarely) not relevant to how good the player is.
As I suggested in another thread, there are too many teams and too many players in D3 playing against variable levels to lump them all together and get these things right (or more right as even when the D3soccer teams come out there will be significant disagreements, omissions, etc).
I'd be curious to hear the details about how the D3soccer.com selections work. I wonder how much comments by posters here over the season and at times like these influence those selections, and whether there is any kind of "make up call" factor. Many of us, including me, believe the D3soccer poll and AA selections are better, and I would still agree with that, but is there even a sliver of our view on that related to most of us here (and possibly those who decide from D3soccer) being in the same echo chamber?
And none of the above should be construed to suggest that I disagree with any comments regarding particular players mentioned above. I'd have TVB from Tufts, Wada, Yeonas, Twigg, etc. I wouldn't have 4 from Trinity or 2 from UMass-Boston. There are 3 players for Messiah. I'm not even sure they got the right Messiah players even if conceding on Messiah getting 3. I never heard of any of those GKs. That said, even though I watch a ton of D3 soccer, I don't see enough and have never watched some of these players, and I wouldn't trust myself to pick a team that wasn't heavily slanted towards who I know the most about. Sure, you can say that you have seen the players like comparing players in the same conference, the same region, or even the same team, but decisions may not be made in a head to head kind of way that some suggest. And it's obvious that some schools have better advocates than others.
It's like doing a weekly poll. Once you start doing them, it's a lot harder than one thinks.
WOW - these All American teams are really a head scratcher. How in the world does Trinity get 4 players when the entire NESCAC conference (with 4 teams in the Elite 8) get 3 total players? I am sure there are other wild conclusions but this one seems to take the cake.
Quote from: Novacat on December 02, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2021, 04:51:25 PM
You can't cherry-pick when you're gonna be a straight down the line systems guy that defends the system and its process against all comers, except for when....
Well, I guess you can, but still...
A little pushback on the SoS argument. Should that be a consideration? Maybe. But surely it's possible that the best player in the country isn't dependent on scheduling outside of the player's control and possibly (even if rarely) not relevant to how good the player is.
As I suggested in another thread, there are too many teams and too many players in D3 playing against variable levels to lump them all together and get these things right (or more right as even when the D3soccer teams come out there will be significant disagreements, omissions, etc).
I'd be curious to hear the details about how the D3soccer.com selections work. I wonder how much comments by posters here over the season and at times like these influence those selections, and whether there is any kind of "make up call" factor. Many of us, including me, believe the D3soccer poll and AA selections are better, and I would still agree with that, but is there even a sliver of our view on that related to most of us here (and possibly those who decide from D3soccer) being in the same echo chamber?
And none of the above should be construed to suggest that I disagree with any comments regarding particular players mentioned above. I'd have TVB from Tufts, Wada, Yeonas, Twigg, etc. I wouldn't have 4 from Trinity or 2 from UMass-Boston. There are 3 players for Messiah. I'm not even sure they got the right Messiah players even if conceding on Messiah getting 3. I never heard of any of those GKs. That said, even though I watch a ton of D3 soccer, I don't see enough and have never watched some of these players, and I wouldn't trust myself to pick a team that wasn't heavily slanted towards who I know the most about. Sure, you can say that you have seen the players like comparing players in the same conference, the same region, or even the same team, but decisions may not be made in a head to head kind of way that some suggest. And it's obvious that some schools have better advocates than others.
It's like doing a weekly poll. Once you start doing them, it's a lot harder than one thinks.
WOW - these All American teams are really a head scratcher. How in the world does Trinity get 4 players when the entire NESCAC conference (with 4 teams in the Elite 8) get 3 total players? I am sure there are other wild conclusions but this one seems to take the cake.
Yup, I agree. That is not defensible.
I think Cristan mentioned this when the regional selections came out, but how can not a single, solitary player from the SCIAC (C-M-S, Redlands, Cal Lutheran, etc) or NWC (Pac Luth, Willamette, Whitman, etc) be an AA??? I guess Trinity was viewed as fully representing the West even though the school is in San Antonio, TX.
Quote from: Novacat on December 02, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2021, 04:51:25 PM
You can't cherry-pick when you're gonna be a straight down the line systems guy that defends the system and its process against all comers, except for when....
Well, I guess you can, but still...
A little pushback on the SoS argument. Should that be a consideration? Maybe. But surely it's possible that the best player in the country isn't dependent on scheduling outside of the player's control and possibly (even if rarely) not relevant to how good the player is.
As I suggested in another thread, there are too many teams and too many players in D3 playing against variable levels to lump them all together and get these things right (or more right as even when the D3soccer teams come out there will be significant disagreements, omissions, etc).
I'd be curious to hear the details about how the D3soccer.com selections work. I wonder how much comments by posters here over the season and at times like these influence those selections, and whether there is any kind of "make up call" factor. Many of us, including me, believe the D3soccer poll and AA selections are better, and I would still agree with that, but is there even a sliver of our view on that related to most of us here (and possibly those who decide from D3soccer) being in the same echo chamber?
And none of the above should be construed to suggest that I disagree with any comments regarding particular players mentioned above. I'd have TVB from Tufts, Wada, Yeonas, Twigg, etc. I wouldn't have 4 from Trinity or 2 from UMass-Boston. There are 3 players for Messiah. I'm not even sure they got the right Messiah players even if conceding on Messiah getting 3. I never heard of any of those GKs. That said, even though I watch a ton of D3 soccer, I don't see enough and have never watched some of these players, and I wouldn't trust myself to pick a team that wasn't heavily slanted towards who I know the most about. Sure, you can say that you have seen the players like comparing players in the same conference, the same region, or even the same team, but decisions may not be made in a head to head kind of way that some suggest. And it's obvious that some schools have better advocates than others.
It's like doing a weekly poll. Once you start doing them, it's a lot harder than one thinks.
WOW - these All American teams are really a head scratcher. How in the world does Trinity get 4 players when the entire NESCAC conference (with 4 teams in the Elite 8) get 3 total players? I am sure there are other wild conclusions but this one seems to take the cake.
It's also easy to focus on Trinity here, so think of this....UMass-Boston got 66% of what the entire NESCAC got.
I think NESCAC suffers because the teams are so deep it becomes easy to underestimate the value of some players, take Biaggio in defense for Tufts, the guy missed one game and 5 goals are scored on the team, after giving up only 8 all season to that point!
Quote from: camosfan on December 02, 2021, 07:00:24 PM
I think NESCAC suffers because the teams are so deep it becomes easy to underestimate the value of some players, take Biaggio in defense for Tufts, the guy missed one game and 5 goals are scored on the team, after giving up only 8 all season to that point!
Hard to argue that missing Biaggio didn't have an impact but you can't presume a causal correlation. It was a wild game. 4 goals was the most Conn gave up all season, including a 2-2 aggregate scoreline in the prior two games where he did play, so Conn only had conceded 2 in two games previously.
This is tricky. NESCAC, and not undeservedly, gets more attention and acclaim than any conference in the country. This site, the only one I know of that gets any real attention, is dominated by NESCAC. They also play fewer games and tend to have very low scoring games, which on the one hand should help GKs but also could hurt them since really good GA stats are kind of expected. Definitely hurts the offensive players. Certainly there is a history here of NESCAC fans/parents/alums complaining about NESCAC getting screwed on awards. I can't argue that they didn't get shorted this year.
There's also a phenomenon with D3 soccer that I'm guessing doesn't happen much with D1 and certainly doesn't happen with like D1 bball where the two or three AA teams by major outlets are almost all from Power 5 schools, and usually the top Power 5 teams. Here we get Alvernia, UMass-Boston, Husson, Wisc-Sup, Randolph, Maryville, Wabash, Roger Williams, etc.
Some (very) general notes about the D3soccer.com process:
- includes input from select coaches
- final decisions/selections are made by D3soccer.com staff
- all input and selections come after the conclusion of the NCAA Tournament, and tournament performance can be taken into account (this is clearly different from the USC process)
- strength of schedule is part of our considerations
- we limit our selections to three 11-player teams (33 total players) with fairly realistic/representative proportion of forwards, midfielders, and defenders on each team (this is clearly different from the USC teams)
D3soccer.com vs. USCGiven our small staff and limited resources, we are unable to devote much if any time to our All-America teams while providing coverage of the conference championships, NCAA tournament berths, and the NCAA Tournament. So we are always working on this after the USC publishes their teams. So both the coaches that we solicit input from as well as our staff/contributors are aware of who the USC has honored. There is no way to measure what influence that has. However, we have never set out to intentionally select different players than the USC just for the sake of being different (and conversely, we have never intentionally selected the same players as the USC in search of acceptance/credibility). There is naturally a lot of overlap between the USC and D3soccer.com teams--some players are universally accepted as being among the very best. But it's a subjective matter, so differences in players honored is inevitable and expected. However, some of the differences can be (partially) explained by the following factors:
- we limit ourselves to 33 total honorees; the USC typically has 50+ on their teams
- we hold to a fairly realistic/representative distribution by position; the USC usually has a very disproportionate number of forwards
- we can consider NCAA tournament performance; the USC voting occurs prior to the NCAA tournament
- we do consider strength of schedule (SOS is included in the data we compile and use in the process)
Where we find ourselves most "at odds" with the USC is goalkeepers. With other positions even when we are not as high on a player, there often seems to be more obvious reasons why a player may have been selected by the USC: name recognition from previous years or incredible stats (even if the SOS is weak).
Strength of Schedule considerationAre there some players that are as good as those D3ssocer.com selects who never really get a sniff because their SOS is low? I'm sure there are some. While this may be unfair to those players, how do you make a fair comparison between players who have played significantly different strengths of schedule? Is it fair to the forward who often faces Top 50 or so defenses to be statistically compared to a forward who rarely, if ever, does? It's impossible to be sure you are selecting the best players, but it's a little easier if you accept that you will be trying to select those who have done the most to prove they are among the best (even while acknowledging that some players never had a chance to really prove themselves).
Late Release of the D3soccer.com All-America TeamsAs already mentioned, we haven't been able to start our process much, if any, before the NCAA Tournament concludes. And, quite frankly, we are (and always have been) understaffed (understatement) to take on the huge task of selecting All-America teams. And by the time we do get working on it, we are worn out (physically, mentally, motivationally) from the grind of the 3-month long season. And then holidays and family time beckons with the unfinished business of our All-America teams hanging over our heads the whole time. *sigh* So, we've made some adjustments and sacrifices to our NCAA Tournament coverage this year in order to get our All-America teams out before Christmas week this year (fingers crossed).
Thanks, Christan. That's a very helpful overview of your process. And please don't take my grousing about your getting out your A-A team in February the wrong way. I realize the difficulties with which you guys are forced to operate. As far as this soccer fan is concerned, your A-A team is the gold standard for D3 soccer. I was just grousing because the bad taste of the USC A-A awards is going to linger until you guys get your awards out. ;)
Thanks for the response, Cristan.
So without putting you too much on the spot, is it fair to say that endorsements of a player on this board by posters, especially if 'cross-validated' by multiple posters where at least 2-3 don't have any apparent personal interest, is helpful? In fewer words, does what you all see on the board have an impact? And if the answer is YES, then do you have any counter-balance for teams/conferences/regions that don't usually have any advocating here in their favor, like relying more on the select coaches you mentioned in those instances?
In addition to your team's dedication and high motivation to get things right, I do think you have a big advantage by including the NCAA tournament, including through to the conclusion of the Final 4. I'm not going to look through past teams, but certainly your Coach of the Year and Offensive, Mid, Defensive, and GK of the year (assuming I got that right) have reflected major success in the tournament. Of course the major disadvantage is the tougher bar of only 33 players.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2021, 09:48:55 PM
Thanks, Christan. That's a very helpful overview of your process. And please don't take my grousing about your getting out your A-A team in February the wrong way. I realize the difficulties with which you guys are forced to operate. As far as this soccer fan is concerned, your A-A team is the gold standard for D3 soccer. I was just grousing because the bad taste of the USC A-A awards is going to linger until you guys get your awards out. ;)
This +1
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2021, 09:48:55 PM
Thanks, Christan. That's a very helpful overview of your process. And please don't take my grousing about your getting out your A-A team in February the wrong way. I realize the difficulties with which you guys are forced to operate. As far as this soccer fan is concerned, your A-A team is the gold standard for D3 soccer. I was just grousing because the bad taste of the USC A-A awards is going to linger until you guys get your awards out. ;)
No, did not take anything the wrong way. Trust me, for a variety of reasons we (D3soccer,com staff) are more frustrated than anyone that we often haven't been able to name our teams before Christmas.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2021, 10:55:45 PM
So without putting you too much on the spot, is it fair to say that endorsements of a player on this board by posters, especially if 'cross-validated' by multiple posters where at least 2-3 don't have any apparent personal interest, is helpful? In fewer words, does what you all see on the board have an impact? And if the answer is YES, then do you have any counter-balance for teams/conferences/regions that don't usually have any advocating here in their favor, like relying more on the select coaches you mentioned in those instances?
I don't know which coaches that we get input from visit the message board, much less if what they read here would in any way influence their input. Likewise I can't speak for other D3soccer.com staff/contributors that have been involved in the process over the years. For me personally, I imagine favorable mentions of players here on the message board might subconsciously help put a player on my radar, but there are so many other considerations and info/data being reviewed, so the message board certainly doesn't have a significant impact if it has one at all. As you allude to, it wouldn't be fair to players from teams/conferences/regions that don't get much if any mention on the message board to be "penalized" for that, and I'm confident that they aren't.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 02, 2021, 10:55:45 PM
In addition to your team's dedication and high motivation to get things right, I do think you have a big advantage by including the NCAA tournament, including through to the conclusion of the Final 4. I'm not going to look through past teams, but certainly your Coach of the Year and Offensive, Mid, Defensive, and GK of the year (assuming I got that right) have reflected major success in the tournament. Of course the major disadvantage is the tougher bar of only 33 players.
Being able to include the tournament is not something we chose by design; it's just our reality--how could you ask and reasonably expect input provided
after the NCAA tournament to be based only only performance/stats/etc.
up to but not including the tournament? But personally I do like the idea of being able to consider tournament performance. Stepping up in big games when it matters most is something you look for in an All-American, right? However, overall I imagine that being conscious of strength-of-schedule is as much or more influential in our eventual selections than being able to consider performance in the tournament. For an individual player here and there, tournament performance may have made a significant difference, but we are really looking for players who were consistently excellent from the start of the season through to the end. So the tournament usually won't change who is in the mix, but in some cases it certainly can impact how we end up ranking those under consideration.
On that note, I think Washington & Lee's Adrian Zimmerman is a very interesting case where pre-NCAA Tournament he isn't making anyone's All-America team, but his tournament play is so incredible that it will be hard to ignore. I can't remember anywhere near as stark a case of a player going from completely "off the radar" to impossible to ignore during the tournament. As I mentioned above, usually the tournament is merely raising (or dropping) the stock of players who were always going to be in the mix anyway (or maybe it brings a player from "off the radar" onto the fringes of consideration but not into serious contention). Again, this is a season award, not a tournament award, so we are looking for season-long excellence.
Quote from: Christan Shirk on December 03, 2021, 08:16:10 AM
On that note, I think Washington & Lee's Adrian Zimmerman is a very interesting case where pre-NCAA Tournament he isn't making anyone's All-America team, but his tournament play is so incredible that it will be hard to ignore. I can't remember anywhere near as stark a case of a player going from completely "off the radar" to impossible to ignore during the tournament. As I mentioned above, usually the tournament is merely raising (or dropping) the stock of players who were always going to be in the mix anyway (or maybe it brings a player from "off the radar" onto the fringes of consideration but not into serious contention). Again, this is a season award, not a tournament award, so we are looking for season-long excellence.
Yep. Even as a Generals alum and fan, I wouldn't think Zimmerman deserves a season AA award. First team Conference Tournament, no doubt. Tournament MVP? Definitely in the running going into the last 2 games and I'd say the lead candidate, but season All American? Not this year. But since he's a sophomore, I'd expect him to be on the preseason lists for next year!
Does it speaks badly of a coach to have multiple All-Americans and not make it out of the first round?
Quote from: camosfan on December 03, 2021, 12:33:06 PM
Does it speaks badly of a coach to have multiple All-Americans and not make it out of the first round?
If you're referring to Trinity you're talking about one of the legends of D3 soccer who I assume is also one of the most highly respected coaches in D3 history. The field or facility also may be named after him.
https://trinitytigers.com/facilities/McGinlay_Soccer_Field
Not withstanding, know he has done a lot in 30 plus years, but even multiteam, multicup cham Pep comes up tactically short at times.
Getting way off track here, but was curious to see the bio on asst coach Edward Cartee at Trinity, a NC native who found his way to Texas after IMG Bradenton. Cannot imagine many assts have this stellar of a resume, and assuming he sticks around would think Trinity has their next HC.
Over the years, Coach Cartee has earned numerous high school coaching awards. United Soccer Coaches elected him as the Texas Private/Parochial Coach of the Year for three straight seasons. He was tabbed as the San Antonio Express-News Boys Soccer Coach of the Year in 2017, and the 2014 TAPPS Division I Coach of the Year, the season where Coach Cartee earned his first state title. Top Drawer Soccer ranked Central Catholic as the 14th top team in the nation, the highest ranking in the program's history.
Coach Cartee was selected for the prestigious 2017-18 class of the 30-Under-30 Program by United Soccer Coaches. Fifteen men and fifteen women, age 30 and under, received scholarships for special courses and were matched with veteran mentors.
A defender on Trinity's men's team from 2005-2008, Coach Cartee helped propel the Tigers to the NCAA Tournament each year. Trinity finished as national runner-up in 2007 with a 23-1-0 record. The Tigers also advanced to the national Quarterfinals in 2005, 2007, and 2008, as well as winning four Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference (SCAC) Championships. Coach Cartee was elected to the ESPN Academic All-America First Team in 2008.
Coach Cartee earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from Trinity in 2009 with majors in history, Chinese, and Spanish. He was a Murchison Scholar, a summa cum laude graduate, and a member of Phi Beta Kappa. Coach Cartee studied at the National Taiwan Normal University (Taipei, Taiwan) on a Ministry of Education Huayu Enrichment Scholarship, a postgraduate language immersion program.
He gained international playing experience with the Taipei FC during the 2009-10 season,and later trained at Estudiantes de La Plata in Argentina. Coach Cartee also competed in the Gothia Cup in Sweden in 2001 and 2002 and in Brazil in 2004 and 2009.
The Oak Ridge, North Carolina, native attended the IMG Soccer Academy in Bradenton, Florida, where he was a team captain. Coach Cartee was a summer staff coach at IMG from 2005-2011, supervising daily operations. He also played for IMG in the Premier Development League (PDL), which reached the national Semifinals in 2009.
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
One thing I do find interesting, all 4 schools in the Final Four are at or toward the top of the academic schools in DIII. While that's going to be true of a lot sports considering how much the NESCAC and UAA hover over the DIII landscape, to see Conn, Amherst, Chicago and W&L.... there probably isn't a young man on those fields that didn't graduate in the top 20% of their h.s. class, and I'd wager a fair amount that most were inside the top 10%.
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
One thing I do find interesting, all 4 schools in the Final Four are at or toward the top of the academic schools in DIII. While that's going to be true of a lot sports considering how much the NESCAC and UAA hover over the DIII landscape, to see Conn, Amherst, Chicago and W&L.... there probably isn't a young man on those fields that didn't graduate in the top 20% of their h.s. class, and I'd wager a fair amount that most were inside the top 10%.
Impossible to play this game well at a high level unless you are smart.
Now not every smart person applies themselves, thats a different thing, but to be good at this game brainspeed > footspeed.
That is why Usain Bolt never made it in the game despite having a decent touch.
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 03, 2021, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
One thing I do find interesting, all 4 schools in the Final Four are at or toward the top of the academic schools in DIII. While that's going to be true of a lot sports considering how much the NESCAC and UAA hover over the DIII landscape, to see Conn, Amherst, Chicago and W&L.... there probably isn't a young man on those fields that didn't graduate in the top 20% of their h.s. class, and I'd wager a fair amount that most were inside the top 10%.
Impossible to play this game well at a high level unless you are smart.
Now not every smart person applies themselves, thats a different thing, but to be good at this game brainspeed > footspeed.
That is why Usain Bolt never made it in the game despite having a decent touch.
I'm not so sure. I know plenty of soccer players who were game smart but not real intelligent or book smart. Granted I think that's more common in football, which is a sport almost geared toward a specialized physical savant, but there are lots of pro soccer players that I'm not sure could blow their own nose if their brains were dynamite.
So, I won't go on some long (and probably boring) diatribe on this topic, but...
IQ does not equal Soccer IQ.
One of the things that is "interesting" about American soccer is that, for the most part, it has rolled out in (mostly) white, affluent suburbs. And I'm talking post-1970, not those gritty American leagues and teams that emerged at the turn of the 20th century and produced a team full of scrappers and immigrants that beat England at the World Cup.
But post-70 up until really the last 10-15 years or so, the development of soccer in this country has been very much comprised of middle and upper middle class white kids.
Pele, Messi, Wayne Rooney, MARADONNA, Ibrahimavich... (ETA - If I list Messi, it would seem problematic to not also note Christiano Ronaldo on this list). The list is, literally, endless of guys that emerge out of poverty or blue collar families and go on to become soccer stars/legends. Most of those guys barely set foot in a classroom.
So, not trying to be pedantic, but having a bunch of academic all-americans in the F4 is cool and all, but it sure doesn't track with (necessarily) what you would look for as successful teams or players in the rest of the soccer universe.
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 03, 2021, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
One thing I do find interesting, all 4 schools in the Final Four are at or toward the top of the academic schools in DIII. While that's going to be true of a lot sports considering how much the NESCAC and UAA hover over the DIII landscape, to see Conn, Amherst, Chicago and W&L.... there probably isn't a young man on those fields that didn't graduate in the top 20% of their h.s. class, and I'd wager a fair amount that most were inside the top 10%.
Impossible to play this game well at a high level unless you are smart.
Now not every smart person applies themselves, thats a different thing, but to be good at this game brainspeed > footspeed.
That is why Usain Bolt never made it in the game despite having a decent touch.
I'm not so sure. I know plenty of soccer players who were game smart but not real intelligent or book smart. Granted I think that's more common in football, which is a sport almost geared toward a specialized physical savant, but there are lots of pro soccer players that I'm not sure could blow their own nose if their brains were dynamite.
Again, application is key. Those players are perhaps not really applying themselves well or have time management issues etc...
@ the end of the day intelligence, true intelligence is assessing a situation, seeing all your options and making the right decision more times than not before the average person.
That is the real definition of a good footballer.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 03, 2021, 03:20:39 PM
So, I won't go on some long (and probably boring) diatribe on this topic, but...
IQ does not equal Soccer IQ.
One of the things that is "interesting" about American soccer is that, for the most part, it has rolled out in (mostly) white, affluent suburbs. And I'm talking post-1970, not those gritty American leagues and teams that emerged at the turn of the 20th century and produced a team full of scrappers and immigrants that beat England at the World Cup.
But post-70 up until really the last 10-15 years or so, the development of soccer in this country has been very much comprised of middle and upper middle class white kids.
Pele, Messi, Wayne Rooney, MARADONNA, Ibrahimavich... (ETA - If I list Messi, it would seem problematic to not also note Christiano Ronaldo on this list). The list is, literally, endless of guys that emerge out of poverty or blue collar families and go on to become soccer stars/legends. Most of those guys barely set foot in a classroom.
So, not trying to be pedantic, but having a bunch of academic all-americans in the F4 is cool and all, but it sure doesn't track with (necessarily) what you would look for as successful teams or players in the rest of the soccer universe.
Seting a foot in the classroom has nothing to do with intelligence.
Diego Armando maradona,the best who has ever done it sait it best "Football is a game of deciet".
Its brain power, brain speed, forward thinking, anticipation that makes a player brilliant.
Intelligent men stuck in poverty dont often graduate Yale, but they still have big brains that solve difficult problems.
Exactly! I would not equate blue collar, or poverty with being unintelligent.
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on December 03, 2021, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2021, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 03, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on December 03, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Nice story on Adrian Zimmerman:
https://roanoke.com/sports/college/adrian-zimmerman-on-a-roll-for-w-l-soccer/article_923e37aa-5375-11ec-a6a1-57ed165994a4.amp.html
Dude! who ever made the transition from another sport to soccer at age 30? be serious!
Zimmerman had two goals in a 3-1 win over Messiah in the quarterfinals.
"Their center back was just bear-hugging him all game, yet he scored twice," Singleton said.
Well, at least his parents aren't smart ;)
One thing I do find interesting, all 4 schools in the Final Four are at or toward the top of the academic schools in DIII. While that's going to be true of a lot sports considering how much the NESCAC and UAA hover over the DIII landscape, to see Conn, Amherst, Chicago and W&L.... there probably isn't a young man on those fields that didn't graduate in the top 20% of their h.s. class, and I'd wager a fair amount that most were inside the top 10%.
Impossible to play this game well at a high level unless you are smart.
Now not every smart person applies themselves, thats a different thing, but to be good at this game brainspeed > footspeed.
That is why Usain Bolt never made it in the game despite having a decent touch.
I'm not so sure. I know plenty of soccer players who were game smart but not real intelligent or book smart. Granted I think that's more common in football, which is a sport almost geared toward a specialized physical savant, but there are lots of pro soccer players that I'm not sure could blow their own nose if their brains were dynamite.