These are some brutal months to wade through while waiting for my team to have a stellar season and get bounced in the round of 32.
I agree, although I hope my team doesn't get bounced :-)
Remind me when the schedules are released? I cannot wait for the season to begin!!
Anyone want to talk about spring training, or where players will be playing over the summer? It will come as no surprise to say that W&L focused on it's defense/back line this Spring, since both centerbacks are graduating. My son tells me it's sorted :-)
We received fall schedule at Senior Night a month ago, though I don't suspect it will be published online until August. Excited for play-day this weekend, although my kid is nursing an injury so I'm not sure he's playing. Will be fun to watch live soccer again though!
Paul Newman's Own Super-Myopic Too Early to Know Preseason Preview Non-NESCAC Top 10
1) W&L
2) North Park
3) Kenyon
4) Chicago
5) Messiah
With decreasing confidence level...
6) Montclair St
7) OWU
8) Cortland St
9) Wash U
10) Trinity (TX)
It is difficult to project returning rosters on multiple teams without a lot of digging. You first have to check if players listed as seniors last year already exhausted their four years or whether they have a year remaining. For those who have a year left you then have to know whether they are coming back. Returning for that last year no doubt in general is easier for schools where players can do a graduate year, but for schools without graduate programs the players have had a couple of years to delay graduation if they chose to do so.
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little? What about Emory? Hardly anyone ever talks about the Eagles. Oneonta? F&M? Wash College? Hopkins? Trinity (TX) with a typical squad or projected to be stronger or weaker? Redlands and C-M-S? NYU? John Carroll? Otterbein? Can Travis Wall at St Olaf duplicate or exceed last year's surprise stellar campaign? Rowan? North Central? Rochester? Christopher Newport?
We could use some regional/conference expert breakdowns of UAA, NJAC, Centennial, and Liberty.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
Paul Newman's Own Super-Myopic Too Early to Know Preseason Preview Non-NESCAC Top 10
1) W&L
2) North Park
3) Kenyon
4) Chicago
5) Messiah
With decreasing confidence level...
6) Montclair St
7) OWU
8) Cortland St
9) Wash U
10) Trinity (TX)
It is difficult to project returning rosters on multiple teams without a lot of digging. You first have to check if players listed as seniors last year already exhausted their four years or whether they have a year remaining. For those who have a year left you then have to know whether they are coming back. Returning for that last year no doubt in general is easier for schools where players can do a graduate year, but for schools without graduate programs the players have had a couple of years to delay graduation if they chose to do so.
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little? What about Emory? Hardly anyone ever talks about the Eagles. Oneonta? F&M? Wash College? Hopkins? Trinity (TX) with a typical squad or projected to be stronger or weaker? Redlands and C-M-S? NYU? John Carroll? Otterbein? Can Travis Wall at St Olaf duplicate or exceed last year's surprise stellar campaign? Rowan? North Central? Rochester? Christopher Newport?
We could use some regional/conference expert breakdowns of UAA, NJAC, Centennial, and Liberty.
I don't have any connection to Redlands to know who is returning, but I thought its non-conference schedule is a step up from recent years, suggesting the coaches think they will be up to the task and/or that they want to improve their strength of schedule. They are playing Calvin and Hope away and hosting Montclair State. SCIAC holds them back on strength of schedule with every team playing each other twice, leaving little room for non-conference games that can improve a school's RPI.
Trinity(TX) has yet to post their roster. Rowan and CMS are coming to town in September and should give a good read on what this year's team is capable of. Other than that and the SCAC schedule, they have games against ASC opponents: @Hardin-Simmons, UT-Dallas, @UMHB, Concordia and a non-conference tilt at Colorado College. The four ASC teams were atop the ASC table last season with UMHB going undefeated in conference play; Concordia took the conference championship in PKs over Hardin-Simmons (who defeated UMHB in semis).
It could be a rebuilding year for the Tigers as only rising sophomore Michael Meese of the four all-region X players is set to return, barring use of the NCAA's extra COVID year eligibility. The same is also true at keeper.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on August 17, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Trinity(TX) has yet to post their roster. Rowan and CMS are coming to town in September and should give a good read on what this year's team is capable of. Other than that and the SCAC schedule, they have games against ASC opponents: @Hardin-Simmons, UT-Dallas, @UMHB, Concordia and a non-conference tilt at Colorado College. The four ASC teams were atop the ASC table last season with UMHB going undefeated in conference play; Concordia took the conference championship in PKs over Hardin-Simmons (who defeated UMHB in semis).
It could be a rebuilding year for the Tigers as only rising sophomore Michael Meese of the four all-region X players is set to return, barring use of the NCAA's extra COVID year eligibility. The same is also true at keeper.
Iirc, Meese is supposed to be one of the best and most offensively dangerous players in the country.
Addendum: Yep, first team AA for both major AA teams as a frosh sounds pretty decent.
I am curious about the state schools like Montclair and Rowan making major, I assume relatively expensive trips. UMass-Boston did a Western trip (PAC NW iirc) a few years ago. Are some of the state schools (NJAC, SUNYAC) better funded than most of the privates? One takeaway for me is that there is no excuse (other than the annual NESCAC argument about a shorter season and less games) for competitive programs not to do similar trips. Looking at you Kenyon who should make a New England trip at the very least every other year (and if for no other reason for recruiting).
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on August 17, 2022, 01:09:07 PM
Trinity(TX) has yet to post their roster. Rowan and CMS are coming to town in September and should give a good read on what this year's team is capable of. Other than that and the SCAC schedule, they have games against ASC opponents: @Hardin-Simmons, UT-Dallas, @UMHB, Concordia and a non-conference tilt at Colorado College. The four ASC teams were atop the ASC table last season with UMHB going undefeated in conference play; Concordia took the conference championship in PKs over Hardin-Simmons (who defeated UMHB in semis).
It could be a rebuilding year for the Tigers as only rising sophomore Michael Meese of the four all-region X players is set to return, barring use of the NCAA's extra COVID year eligibility. The same is also true at keeper.
Iirc, Meese is supposed to be one of the best and most offensively dangerous players in the country.
Addendum: Yep, first team AA for both major AA teams as a frosh sounds pretty decent.
He also received a Golden Rice Krispy Treat for being on the SimpleCoach Best XL in the country. Kid is a monster.
SC
Granted, the only times I watched Trinity (TX) last season were against decidedly inferior competition, but the Meese kid impressed the heck out of me, nonetheless.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 01:43:12 PM
I am curious about the state schools like Montclair and Rowan making major, I assume relatively expensive trips. UMass-Boston did a Western trip (PAC NW iirc) a few years ago. Are some of the state schools (NJAC, SUNYAC) better funded than most of the privates? One takeaway for me is that there is no excuse (other than the annual NESCAC argument about a shorter season and less games) for competitive programs not to do similar trips. Looking at you Kenyon who should make a New England trip at the very least every other year (and if for no other reason for recruiting).
With many D3 schools athletic departments/teams being de facto divisions of the admissions/recruitment departments these days (complete with enrollment quotas), I'm always amazed that more schools don't push coaches to take their teams to California every so often to help raise their profiles. With a huge population of students in Southern California, relatively few small liberal arts colleges, and declining populations/student enrollments in a place like Ohio where a ton of liberal arts schools are located, California is one of the top three feeder states for students for a lot of far-away small schools, including Kenyon.
Adding to Ron Boerger's post above. Some quick thoughts about Trinity this year:
1. Need to avenge going out in the first round of NCAA while playing on the road in Spokane
2. Need to win SCAC; likely St. Thomas will be a tough foe again.
3. Trinity returns Michael Meese (transferred in last year from William & Mary) who was 1st team United Soccer Coaches. He tallied 36 points while missing (I think) 3 games with injury.
4. Trinity also returns Fraser Burns at 1 midfield position; he was a 3rd team All American United Soccer Coaches
5. Incumbent GK Juan Carlose Valdes returns for final year
6. Have no idea how good he is but Trinity picked up MF Louis Instrall, a transfer from Marshall University
7. Also return Jack Eubank (a personal favorite) at LB (he was HM all SCAC), JC Rule at CB (coming back from knee injury in game where he scored 2 goals!), and a lot of other players with significant experience, including Michael Pham, Pieter Blank, Chen Adjei, Hunter Cain, Joseph Kuri, Jack Downes.
All in all, looking for consistent success; schedule is weighted with away games.
Quote from: Kuiper on August 17, 2022, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 01:43:12 PM
I am curious about the state schools like Montclair and Rowan making major, I assume relatively expensive trips. UMass-Boston did a Western trip (PAC NW iirc) a few years ago. Are some of the state schools (NJAC, SUNYAC) better funded than most of the privates? One takeaway for me is that there is no excuse (other than the annual NESCAC argument about a shorter season and less games) for competitive programs not to do similar trips. Looking at you Kenyon who should make a New England trip at the very least every other year (and if for no other reason for recruiting).
With many D3 schools athletic departments/teams being de facto divisions of the admissions/recruitment departments these days (complete with enrollment quotas), I'm always amazed that more schools don't push coaches to take their teams to California every so often to help raise their profiles. With a huge population of students in Southern California, relatively few small liberal arts colleges, and declining populations/student enrollments in a place like Ohio where a ton of liberal arts schools are located, California is one of the top three feeder states for students for a lot of far-away small schools, including Kenyon.
Yes on all counts. Also note which programs consistently utilize the rule about an overseas trip every four year. Again, looking at you Kenyon. As for California....
Who We Are
We come to Gambier, Ohio, from every region of the country and corner of the globe to better understand our place in the world.
48 U.S. states are represented by Kenyon students, with the top three being Ohio, California and New York.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 04:25:01 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on August 17, 2022, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 01:43:12 PM
I am curious about the state schools like Montclair and Rowan making major, I assume relatively expensive trips. UMass-Boston did a Western trip (PAC NW iirc) a few years ago. Are some of the state schools (NJAC, SUNYAC) better funded than most of the privates? One takeaway for me is that there is no excuse (other than the annual NESCAC argument about a shorter season and less games) for competitive programs not to do similar trips. Looking at you Kenyon who should make a New England trip at the very least every other year (and if for no other reason for recruiting).
With many D3 schools athletic departments/teams being de facto divisions of the admissions/recruitment departments these days (complete with enrollment quotas), I'm always amazed that more schools don't push coaches to take their teams to California every so often to help raise their profiles. With a huge population of students in Southern California, relatively few small liberal arts colleges, and declining populations/student enrollments in a place like Ohio where a ton of liberal arts schools are located, California is one of the top three feeder states for students for a lot of far-away small schools, including Kenyon.
Yes on all counts. Also note which programs consistently utilize the rule about an overseas trip every four year. Again, looking at you Kenyon. As for California....
Who We Are
We come to Gambier, Ohio, from every region of the country and corner of the globe to better understand our place in the world.
48 U.S. states are represented by Kenyon students, with the top three being Ohio, California and New York.
@PaulNewman - Does Kenyon not go on overseas trips?
SC
Quote from: jaysoccer on August 17, 2022, 03:56:05 PM
Adding to Ron Boerger's post above. Some quick thoughts about Trinity this year:
1. Need to avenge going out in the first round of NCAA while playing on the road in Spokane
2. Need to win SCAC; likely St. Thomas will be a tough foe again.
3. Trinity returns Michael Meese (transferred in last year from William & Mary) who was 1st team United Soccer Coaches. He tallied 36 points while missing (I think) 3 games with injury.
4. Trinity also returns Fraser Burns at 1 midfield position; he was a 3rd team All American United Soccer Coaches
5. Incumbent GK Juan Carlose Valdes returns for final year
6. Have no idea how good he is but Trinity picked up MF Louis Instrall, a transfer from Marshall University
7. Also return Jack Eubank (a personal favorite) at LB (he was HM all SCAC), JC Rule at CB (coming back from knee injury in game where he scored 2 goals!), and a lot of other players with significant experience, including Michael Pham, Pieter Blank, Chen Adjei, Hunter Cain, Joseph Kuri, Jack Downes.
All in all, looking for consistent success; schedule is weighted with away games.
1) W&L/
Trinity (TX) TIE
3) North Park
4) Kenyon
5) Chicago
With decreasing confidence level...
6) Messiah
7) Montclair
8) OWU
9) Cortland St
10)
Trinity (TX) Wash U
Just having fun, but Trinity seems ripe for a great season based on that info.
On side note, I thought the NCAA got rid of the advantage to SoS of away games. I wondered when I saw 10 out of Kenyon's 16 games are away.
Addendum for @SimpleCoach...Kenyon has NOT done overseas trips. As far back as I can remember in the regular season they haven't gone anywhere further than Pittsburgh for CMU and Centre in Danville, KY. Very easily could play Rochester, some of SUNYACs, Messiah, Dickinson, F&M, and even W&L/Lynchburg, and New England makes sense since so many New England kids have been on the team and it's a nice thing to do for players and parents. Despite the tragic ending seeing Kenyon play Tufts at Tufts in the Elite 8 was a fantastic experience...played Trinity (TX) the day before btw....and even though Tufts had no business hosting that year...but let me stop before too much grievance washes over me.
I gotta learn more about Trinity. Might be adding Trinity to college lists for my grandkids who don't exist yet (IF TX...and Massachusetts... are still part of the same United States by then...sorry). I know Trinity is a great school but don't know a lot about it and always confused by why not listed as a national LAC by USNWR. Also surprised to see endowment at 1.75+ billion. If my quick research is correct that wld place Trinity 5th in NESCAC, still way behind Williams and Amherst as almost all LACs are, well behind Bowdoin and Tufts, but ahead of Midd, Hamilton, Colby, etc. By comparison W&L comes in just over 2 billion which also would place 5th in NESCAC and Davidson would slot in with Colby around 7th at 1.3 billion. Tufts of course is the one school named that is not a LAC. I also forgot Wesleyan which would slot in between Tufts and Midd but below W&L and Trinity.
Anyway, after 2.5 years of Covid and the country embroiled in a vicious culture war unimaginably teetering towards possible civil war... in 2022... the little 'ol D3 soccer season cannot start fast enough.
Really excited for the coming season! I am by no means a soccer expert but have been observing, often in person here in San Antonio. A couple of things about Trinity in 2022:
- Jacob Galan will be missed on defense (if he's, in fact, gone). He was the most powerful player on the field (of either team) when he was in. One could sense the confidence from the rest of the players that he would shut down the opposition. It'll be fun to see how the TU D responds.
- Michael Meese is back. He brings the same offensive confidence that Galan brought on defense. A national level game changer.
- Hunter Cain is known but underrated. I can still picture an arching goal from near midfield that he scored last season. It was a stunning bolt of offense from this relatively slight, sneaky player. TU's longevity in the playoffs may hinge on Hunter.
- I expect Chen Adjei to blossom. Already a force but he'll shine in 2022.
The environment of success in athletics at Trinity is infectious. Recommend a visit to San Antonio!
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
I gotta learn more about Trinity. Might be adding Trinity to college lists for my grandkids who don't exist yet (IF TX...and Massachusetts... are still part of the same United States by then...sorry). I know Trinity is a great school but don't know a lot about it and always confused by why not listed as a national LAC by USNWR. Also surprised to see endowment at 1.75+ billion. If my quick research is correct that wld place Trinity 5th in NESCAC, still way behind Williams and Amherst as almost all LACs are, well behind Bowdoin and Tufts, but ahead of Midd, Hamilton, Colby, etc. By comparison W&L comes in just over 2 billion which also would place 5th in NESCAC and Davidson would slot in with Colby around 7th at 1.3 billion. Tufts of course is the one school named that is not a LAC. I also forgot Wesleyan which would slot in between Tufts and Midd but below W&L and Trinity.
Anyway, after 2.5 years of Covid and the country embroiled in a vicious culture war unimaginably teetering towards possible civil war... in 2022... the little 'ol D3 soccer season cannot start fast enough.
Trinity's classification, like most schools, is done by Carnegie based on the on-campus academic offerings. Since almost all degrees are undergraduate they fell into the regional classification where they have enjoyed being the big fish in a small pond for decades. Last year the school finally petitioned to be considered a National Liberal Arts (https://www.trinity.edu/news/trinity-university-reclassified-national-liberal-arts-college) school and Carnegie agreed. I'm sure the first set of rankings will come as a shock to those used to seeing them at the top of the Western region but it's going to be a huge win if the school continues on the path it's been on the last decade or so. New president takes over this year and has some pretty big shoes to fill, but I'm optimistic.
The endowment has always been substantial for a small private school in this part of the country, but again the last ten years has seen significant growth. As an aside, one of the Walton children is a Trinity grad, but I don't think the two are related.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 07:37:50 PM
I gotta learn more about Trinity. Might be adding Trinity to college lists for my grandkids who don't exist yet (IF TX...and Massachusetts... are still part of the same United States by then...sorry). I know Trinity is a great school but don't know a lot about it and always confused by why not listed as a national LAC by USNWR. Also surprised to see endowment at 1.75+ billion. If my quick research is correct that wld place Trinity 5th in NESCAC, still way behind Williams and Amherst as almost all LACs are, well behind Bowdoin and Tufts, but ahead of Midd, Hamilton, Colby, etc. By comparison W&L comes in just over 2 billion which also would place 5th in NESCAC and Davidson would slot in with Colby around 7th at 1.3 billion. Tufts of course is the one school named that is not a LAC. I also forgot Wesleyan which would slot in between Tufts and Midd but below W&L and Trinity.
Anyway, after 2.5 years of Covid and the country embroiled in a vicious culture war unimaginably teetering towards possible civil war... in 2022... the little 'ol D3 soccer season cannot start fast enough.
Just on the Trinity endowment, when we visited in 2018, we were told that amongst the Tigers alumni was one, Alice Walton, yes those Waltons.
(modified by GS for formatting)
Jacob Galan was excellent, both on pitch and in classroom. He was awarded an NCAA post graduate scholarship and is off to medical school
Return of JC Rule at CB is big -- he was best CB last year until knee injury which cost him about half of the season.
Meese is definitely a game-changer. And from all accounts a very nice person off the pitch.
Trinity is a very very good academic school IMO. It offers a really good combo of great academics and great athletic programs. Location in San Antonio is awesome, campus is very pretty. It seems that Trinity has made huge strides last decade or so upping its national profile and predict that will continue. The endowment amount is welcome because they are able to offer generous merit scholarships in addition to need-based scholarships.
OMG, so embarrassing....the Kenyon Lords are now the Kenyon Owls. I had no clue.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 18, 2022, 11:59:27 AM
OMG, so embarrassing....the Kenyon Lords are now the Kenyon Owls. I had no clue.
It was certainly better than the second choice moniker in the student voting:
The Kenyon Kenyons
Maybe I missed a reference to this from one of our W&L friends but do not see W&L soph sensation Adrian Zimmerman on the 2022 roster. I do see multiple other key players back like Bass, Kutsanzira, Smith, Ryan, Agbeyegbe, etc
@paulnewman you are correct, no Adrian Zimmerman :-(
Quote from: Another Mom on August 18, 2022, 04:20:33 PM
@paulnewman you are correct, no Adrian Zimmerman :-(
Is this the young man (https://www.uslleaguetwo.com/roster_players/55436852) in question? If so he was on the roster of USL League2 West Virginia United earlier this year, not sure what impact if any that would have on NCAA eligibility as it is a "preprofessional league."
Quote from: Ron Boerger on August 18, 2022, 04:42:24 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 18, 2022, 04:20:33 PM
@paulnewman you are correct, no Adrian Zimmerman :-(
Is this the young man (https://www.uslleaguetwo.com/roster_players/55436852) in question? If so he was on the roster of USL League2 West Virginia United earlier this year, not sure what impact if any that would have on NCAA eligibility as it is a "preprofessional league."
USL League 2 is just the rebrand of PDL. It is a summer league designed primarily for college kids. Lots of D3 players participate in that league or UPSL to help keep them sharp before fall season. It wouldn't affect eligibility.
my son played a little in the USL2, it is mostly college kids, notice there were a few pros on the roster of a team they played.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 18, 2022, 04:20:33 PM
@paulnewman you are correct, no Adrian Zimmerman :-(
That's too bad after his exploits last year especially in the latter half of the season. You still look loaded, though, so not sure his loss really impacts the squad's very high expectations. Messiah at W&L to open the season at Parker Alston Watt or Watt Parker Alston field is a don't miss streaming event. Gotta love an Elite 8 rematch between the gold standard and the new superstar on the block.
I also get a kick out of reading featured articles on incoming players. I know many of these read very similarly but sounds like 4 or 5 guys of Man City quality are coming in, including a kid from Spain who Singleton termed the highest IQ player he will have ever coached. I know soccer IQ doesn't necessarily track totally with whatever regular IQ is, but given that Singleton coached for I think at least a handful of years at MIT and now several at W&L his statement seems like quite an endorsement.
Best of luck to your son this season.
Thanks, there are still a few other kids on the team that can score goals.
Messiah v W&L -- yes, big game! I am planning to be there in person. I'm guessing it will be a real indication of the season to come.
Usl2, yeah, mostly college kids. My son also played on a team this summer. Zero effect on eligibility.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little?
Calvin (ending up at #9 last year) had 4 seniors starters on the team last year, including the team leading scorer and central defender, both All-Americans. Senior starters accounted for 39% of goals scored.
Rumor has it that Calvin has a strong recruiting class, including 3 D1 transfers. Of course, it remains to be seen whether coach can form these players into a coherent team by August 30...
Newman's Late Summer Menu Selections (through September 14 with online ordering available)
Two Chef's Specials above all others...Messiah @ W&L on opening day and the NESCAC heavyweight tournament that should be played at one venue as a doubleheader on Sept. 10.
September 1, 2022
Messiah @ W&L $$$$$
Rochester @ Cortland St $$$$
Rowan @ Hopkins $$$$
RPI @ Montclair $$$
Chicago @ Kzoo $$
Ohio Northern @ Kenyon $$
Centre @ Otterbein $
Wash U @ Carthage $
September 2, 2022
Redlands @ Calvin $$$$
CWRU @ OWU $$
September 3, 2022
Kenyon @ John Carroll $$$$
C-M-S @ Trinity (TX) $$$$
Loras @ OWU $$$
Messiah @ Lynchburg $$$
Babson @ R-Newark $$$
Kzoo @ North Central $$
Wheaton @ Chicago $$
WPI @ Skidmore $$
September 4, 2022
Rowan @ Trinity (TX) $$$$
F&M @ Stevens $$$
Denison @ Brandeis $$$
North Park @ Ohio Northern $$
Hopkins @ Lycoming $
Mt Union @ Rochester $
R-Camden @ Swarthmore $
September 5, 2022
Cortland St @ Swarthmore $$
September 6, 2022
Tufts @ MIT $$$
Hopkins @ Mary Washington $$$
September 7, 2022
Haverford @ Rowan $$
Stevens @ R-Newark $$
WPI @ Brandeis $$
Mt Union @ Denison $
September 9, 2022
St Olaf @ North Park $$$$
Chicago @ DePauw
September 10, 2022
Conn Coll @ Tufts $$$$$
Middlebury @ Amherst $$$$$
Calvin @ OWU $$$$
Montclair @ Redlands $$$$
Cortland St @ Hopkins $$$$
SLU @ Oneonta $$$
Babson @ Brandeis $$$
Vassar @ Stevens $$
Colby @ Wesleyan $$
Otterbein @ CWRU $$
Carnegie Mellon @ John Carroll $$
Rowan @ Skidmore $$
New Paltz St @ NYU $$
September 11, 2022
St Olaf @ Chicago $$$$
Emory @ Hopkins $$$$
Cortland St @ Mary Wash $$$
Kenyon @ Centre $$$
Hobart @ Oneonta $$$
Loras @ GAC $$$
Rowan @ Lycoming $$
September 13, 2022
Tufts @ Wesleyan $$$
Stevens @ NYU $$$
September 14, 2022
Wash U @ North Park $$$$
C-M-S @ Redlands $$$$
Rowan @ Cortland St $$$$
John Carroll @ CWRU $$$
Vassar @ New Paltz St $$
As of now, I plan to be at both Trinity games on the weekend of the 3rd. Hope to have some relevant observations.
What a great start!
Messiah @ W&L.....My D3 knowledge only goes back to about 2010/2011. That said, I can't recall another time when Messiah in a regular season game goes in as the slight underdog or at best even odds. The closest might be the season opener for the Falcons in 2011, also away, at OWU. Messiah scored 29 seconds in and went up 2-0 in the 2nd half before Travis Wall pulled one back in the 86th minute. Messiah walked away with a 2-1 win in front of 1400 at Roy Rike. OWU would not lose again until the the NCAC final when the Battling Bishops were shocked 4-2 by DePauw (Brad Stevens coached that night lol). As an aside and indication of better days for Allegheny, OWU knocked out the Gators in the NCAC semis. OWU would not have another loss as they marched on to the NCAA title. Messiah was shocked at home in the 2nd round by Neumann 1-0 in OT. Montclair knocked out Neumann and went to the Final Four where OWU dispatched MSU 4-0 in the national semis. OWU went on to best perennial bridesmade Calvin in the 2011 final 2-1. So Messiah and OWU would have had a rematch in the national semis. OWU had their own heartbreak the previous year of 2010, losing at home in the Elite 8 to Lynchburg 2-0 despite outshooting the Hornets 28-17. Messiah won in 2010, defeating Lynchburg in a final with some controversy.
With respect, I disagree. Zimmerman appears to be gone. Think about W&L's tourney results minus his goals last year....Kutsanzira will be serving his red card suspension. That's the 3 goals from the elite 8 match. I don't think Messiah thinks about revenge but there is that possible factor as well. How many teams have beaten Messiah twice in a row this century? Are there any?
Luke Groothoff will be back and hopefully 100% for Messiah. He's an all-american and arguably their best player. They have lost some quality but return 3 all-americans up the spine (Groothoff, Lent-Koop, Brautigam). That said, it should be a GREAT match which I will be attending in person :)
Ha, we should say hello!
While Zimmerman's performance during the tournament was one for the ages, he was not the leading scorer before the tournament. I was struck, during last season, by how many players on W&L's team scored goals, which contrasted with most (all?) of W&L's opponents, who would have 1 - 3 dominant players, and it would drop off dramatically from there.
That said, I certainly am intimidated by Messiah's reputation, and believe it will be a great game!
In fact, looking at team statistics from last year, they each scored 70 goals. W&L allowed 19, and Messiah 14. W&L have an entirely new back line, with the exception of RB PJ Ryan, so how W&L does defensively is a question mark.
Yeah, it raises an interesting question that McCarty and SimpleCoach discussed in their video. "Goals by committee" is great during the regular season but in the big tournament matches against top competition do you need "a guy"? F&M had Zimmerman and Messiah had a bunch of guys who had scored 5-7 goals. I re-watched last year's match and Messiah had the ball and connected 100s of passes but their finishing was poor and they often "over-passed" when they were dangerous. On the other side, W&L had a worldie from Kutsanzira and Zimmerman did his thing. W&L was very efficient in taking their chances.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on August 20, 2022, 08:07:31 AM
With respect, I disagree. Zimmerman appears to be gone. Think about W&L's tourney results minus his goals last year....Kutsanzira will be serving his red card suspension. That's the 3 goals from the elite 8 match. I don't think Messiah thinks about revenge but there is that possible factor as well. How many teams have beaten Messiah twice in a row this century? Are there any?
Luke Groothoff will be back and hopefully 100% for Messiah. He's an all-american and arguably their best player. They have lost some quality but return 3 all-americans up the spine (Groothoff, Lent-Koop, Brautigam). That said, it should be a GREAT match which I will be attending in person :)
LOL, disagree with what exactly? Messiah apparently can't be complimented enough. Almost all of us make sure to give proper deference to the Messiah program. I suggested they've been favored in every regular season game (and probably every tournament game until last year's tilt with W&L) for at least 11 years, and they may have been the slight favorite even for that 2011 OWU opener. Are you suggesting that Messiah should be favored against W&L? I said slight underdog or even odds. I had not realized Groothoff was returning and obviously that is a big deal. We'll see if he can match his pre-injury form.
Should be a tremendous game which I think I underscored by labeling it the best match for at least the first couple of weeks.
I'm sure there will be some overreactions after the outcome either way, but in truth a 4-1 win by either won't have much impact on the rest of their seasons. And they certainly could play again in the tournament.
I'm gonna guess ends in a draw...2-2.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on August 20, 2022, 09:49:26 AM
Yeah, it raises an interesting question that McCarty and SimpleCoach discussed in their video. "Goals by committee" is great during the regular season but in the big tournament matches against top competition do you need "a guy"? F&M had Zimmerman and Messiah had a bunch of guys who had scored 5-7 goals. I re-watched last year's match and Messiah had the ball and connected 100s of passes but their finishing was poor and they often "over-passed" when they were dangerous. On the other side, W&L had a worldie from Kutsanzira and Zimmerman did his thing. W&L was very efficient in taking their chances.
My opinion is that the problem with relying on "a guy" is that talented teams can shut that guy down. If no one else can step up and score, then the team with "the guy" loses.
After I realized that there has not been a champion other than Messiah or a NESCAC going back to OWU and 2011, I was curious about prior to that...which I think gives some daunting perspective on the enormity of the task if you are not Messiah or a NESCAC. After 2011 you have to go to 2003 and Trinity (TX), 2001 with Richard Stockton, and then, going backwards, prior to Messiah's first title in 2000, finally multiple non-Messiah, Non-NESCAC with SLU in 1999, OWU again in 1998, Wheaton (Ill) in 1997, TCNJ in 1996. Then back to NESCAC with Williams in 1995, followed by Bethany, UC San Diego, Kean, UC San Diego again, and Rowan. Anyway, in the last 20 years since Messiah won in 2002 there have been only two non-Messiah, non-NESCAC champs, Trinity in 2003 and OWU in 2011. A handful of other schools came close but fell short....Calvin obviously, Loras definitely, RUT-Camden, Brandeis, Chicago, North Park, Wheaton (Ill)...
CHAMPIONSHIP HISTORY
YEAR CHAMPION (RECORD) COACH SCORE RUNNER-UP HOST OR SITE
2021 Connecticut College (19-4-1) Reuben Burk 1-1 (2ot, pk) Amherst Greensboro, N.C.
2020 Canceled due to Covid-19 -- -- -- --
2019 Tufts (20-2-2) Josh Shapiro 2-0 Amherst Greensboro, N.C.
2018 Tufts (18-0-3) Josh Shapiro 2-1 Calvin Greensboro, N.C.
2017 Messiah (24-2-0) Brad McCarty 2-1 North Park Greensboro, N.C.
2016 Tufts (14-5-2) Josh Shapiro 1-0 (2ot) Calvin Salem, Va.
2015 Amherst (17-1-2) Justin Serpone 2-1 Loras Kansas City, Mo.
2014 Tufts (17-2-4) Josh Shapiro 4-2 Wheaton (Ill.) Kansas City, Mo.
2013 Messiah (24-1-1) Brad McCarty 2-1 Rutgers-Camden San Antonio
2012 Messiah (23-0-2) Brad McCarty 5-1 Ohio Northern San Antonio
2011 Ohio Wesleyan (23-2-0) Jay Martin 2-1 Calvin San Antonio
2010 Messiah (23-1) Brad McCarty 2-1 (ot) Lynchburg (Va.) San Antonio
2009 Messiah (24-1) Brad McCarty 2-0 Calvin San Antonio
2008 *Messiah (22-2-2) Dave Brandt 1-1 (2ot, pk) Stevens Institute Greensboro, N.C.
2007 *Middlebury (18-2-2) Dave Saward 0-0 (2ot, pk) Trinity (Texas) Lake Buena Vista, Fla.
2006 Messiah (21-1-2) Dave Brandt 3-0 Wheaton (Ill.) Lake Buena Vista, Fla.
2005 Messiah (24-0) Dave Brandt 1-0 Gustavus Adolphus Greensboro, N.C.
2004 Messiah (23-2) Dave Brandt 4-0 UC Santa Cruz Greensboro, N.C.
2003 Trinity (Texas) (24-0-0) Paul McGinlay 2-1 Drew Drew
2002 Messiah (23-2-1) Dave Brandt 1-0 Otterbein St. Lawrence
2001 Richard Stockton (25-1-1) Jeff Haines 3-2 Redlands Messiah
2000 Messiah (22-2-1) Dave Brandt 2-0 Rowan Rowan
1999 St. Lawrence (22-0) Bob Durocher 2-0 Wheaton (Ill.) Wheaton (Ill.)
1998 Ohio Wesleyan (18-6) Jay Martin 2-1 (2ot) Greensboro Ohio Wesleyan
1997 Wheaton (Ill.) (24-0-1) Joe Bean 3-0 TCNJ Mary Washington
1996 TCNJ (17-5-1) George Nazario 2-1 (4ot) Kenyon Kenyon
1995 Williams (17-0-1) Mike Russo 2-1 Methodist Williams
1994 Bethany (W.Va.) (15-5-4) John Cunningham 1-0 (2ot) Johns Hopkins TCNJ
1993 UC San Diego (20-2-2) Derek Armstrong 1-0 Williams Williams
1992 Kean (18-6-1) Tony Ochrimenko 3-1 Ohio Wesleyan Kean
1991 UC San Diego (18-4-1) Derek Armstrong 1-0 TCNJ UC San Diego
1990 Rowan (20-3-2) Dan Gilmore 2-1 (4ot, pk) Ohio Wesleyan Ohio Wesleyan
Messiah = Bayern Munich
Tufts = Manchester City
Ohio Wesleyan = Juve
Amherst = Chelsea
Trinity = PSG
SLU = Ajax
Conn College = Leicester
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on August 20, 2022, 08:07:31 AM
With respect, I disagree. Zimmerman appears to be gone. Think about W&L's tourney results minus his goals last year....Kutsanzira will be serving his red card suspension. That's the 3 goals from the elite 8 match. I don't think Messiah thinks about revenge but there is that possible factor as well. How many teams have beaten Messiah twice in a row this century? Are there any?
Luke Groothoff will be back and hopefully 100% for Messiah. He's an all-american and arguably their best player. They have lost some quality but return 3 all-americans up the spine (Groothoff, Lent-Koop, Brautigam). That said, it should be a GREAT match which I will be attending in person :)
LOL, disagree with what exactly? Messiah apparently can't be complimented enough. Almost all of us make sure to give proper deference to the Messiah program. I suggested they've been favored in every regular season game (and probably every tournament game until last year's tilt with W&L) for at least 11 years, and they may have been the slight favorite even for that 2011 OWU opener. Are you suggesting that Messiah should be favored against W&L? I said slight underdog or even odds. I had not realized Groothoff was returning and obviously that is a big deal. We'll see if he can match his pre-injury form.
Should be a tremendous game which I think I underscored by labeling it the best match for at least the first couple of weeks.
I'm sure there will be some overreactions after the outcome either way, but in truth a 4-1 win by either won't have much impact on the rest of their seasons. And they certainly could play again in the tournament.
I'm gonna guess ends in a draw...2-2.
Not trying to be funny. Simply suggesting that based on the facts I shared I believe
IMO that Messiah is the favorite.
Fair enough, CB, but I think you missed my point. When was the last time, especially over the past 10-12 years when there would even be a discussion about who is favored? I'm guessing at least a slight majority would view W&L as a slight fave or even odds even if many in that same group predicted a Messiah win. Who is favored and who you think will win don't always track together.
Some random thoughts...
A player missing a game based on a red the last game of last season seems ludicrous to me....UNLESS the red reflected behavior that would justify a multiple game ban (like for fighting).
I mentioned 1400 were at OWU for Messiah @ OWU in 2011. There were 2980 for Kenyon @ Messiah in 2013 (in bitterly frigid weather). I've been at both venues, and while admitting that I haven't experienced some of the other legendary venues, OWU and Messiah provided by far the most electric atmospheres. Messiah is much bigger but OWU feels nearly as big because the crowd is literally right on top of the field and both benches. And the snack bar has really tasty cheeseburgers.
I resonate with and envy returning and new parents who will have kids on teams. I vividly recall the days of wondering and worrying about whether my basically unrecruited kid would earn a jersey, ever play if he got a jersey, be part of an emerging program, enjoy some magical moments, etc. It's not always glory and smooth-sailing and some kids end up having to make a very difficult decision regarding the game they love. Also, back in 2011/2012 there wasn't always video, even for places like OWU, which I "watched" vs Kenyon in 2011 via LIVE STATS. Not seeing the game and then seeing your kid's name pop up for something positive on live stats is quite a thrill.
Last thought about Messiah. Messiah may be just as good as they've always been with some other programs simply catching up. At least for the past 5-7 years I don't think Messiah has been viewed as head and shoulders above other top tier programs. It's subtle perhaps, but it's the difference between being THE team every year versus perennially ONE OF the top five or six. Tufts definitely has been superior and one could argue that Calvin has been as well since 2015ish. And probably Amherst.
Messiah = Bayern Munich
Tufts = Manchester City
Ohio Wesleyan = Juve
Amherst = Chelsea
Trinity = PSG
SLU = Ajax
Conn College = Leicester
Pretty good comparison!
I love hearing your thoughts @PaulNewman. It certainly isn't smooth sailing for every, or even most players during recruiting and later once on a college team.
I am so grateful for livestreaming, but I was flying one game day last fall, and couldn't stream the game. I had to follow along with live stats so know exactly what that was like. (It was, in fact, the only game my son scored in, so while nothing like seeing it, it was still surprisingly exciting reading it!).
Quote from: Another Mom on August 20, 2022, 12:30:56 PM
I love hearing your thoughts @PaulNewman. It certainly isn't smooth sailing for every, or even most players during recruiting and later once on a college team.
I am so grateful for livestreaming, but I was flying one game day last fall, and couldn't stream the game. I had to follow along with live stats so know exactly what that was like. (It was, in fact, the only game my son scored in, so while nothing like seeing it, it was still surprisingly exciting reading it!).
One of the most exhilarating and feeling unlucky Live Stats experiences is seeing your kid's last name pop up on the screen with 'HIT POST.'
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 20, 2022, 12:30:56 PM
I love hearing your thoughts @PaulNewman. It certainly isn't smooth sailing for every, or even most players during recruiting and later once on a college team.
I am so grateful for livestreaming, but I was flying one game day last fall, and couldn't stream the game. I had to follow along with live stats so know exactly what that was like. (It was, in fact, the only game my son scored in, so while nothing like seeing it, it was still surprisingly exciting reading it!).
One of the most exhilarating and feeling unlucky Live Stats experiences is seeing your kid's last name pop up on the screen with 'HIT POST.'
Watching your kid score a goal is 100 times more exciting than scoring yourself... and that is saying A WHOLE LOT!
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 20, 2022, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 20, 2022, 12:30:56 PM
I love hearing your thoughts @PaulNewman. It certainly isn't smooth sailing for every, or even most players during recruiting and later once on a college team.
I am so grateful for livestreaming, but I was flying one game day last fall, and couldn't stream the game. I had to follow along with live stats so know exactly what that was like. (It was, in fact, the only game my son scored in, so while nothing like seeing it, it was still surprisingly exciting reading it!).
One of the most exhilarating and feeling unlucky Live Stats experiences is seeing your kid's last name pop up on the screen with 'HIT POST.'
Watching your kid score a goal is 100 times more exciting than scoring yourself... and that is saying A WHOLE LOT!
Absolutely, SOL. Imagine what I felt when my kid scored to draw Kenyon level in a Sweet 16 tilt in front of those 2980 at Shoemaker. And then nearly had an assist to put the Owls up 2-1 with 15 to go. Although, tbh, the walk off Hail Mary OT2 goal vs Denison at Denison was pretty sweet too.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 01:34:41 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 20, 2022, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 20, 2022, 12:30:56 PM
I love hearing your thoughts @PaulNewman. It certainly isn't smooth sailing for every, or even most players during recruiting and later once on a college team.
I am so grateful for livestreaming, but I was flying one game day last fall, and couldn't stream the game. I had to follow along with live stats so know exactly what that was like. (It was, in fact, the only game my son scored in, so while nothing like seeing it, it was still surprisingly exciting reading it!).
One of the most exhilarating and feeling unlucky Live Stats experiences is seeing your kid's last name pop up on the screen with 'HIT POST.'
Watching your kid score a goal is 100 times more exciting than scoring yourself... and that is saying A WHOLE LOT!
Absolutely, SOL. Imagine what I felt when my kid scored to draw Kenyon level in a Sweet 16 tilt in front of those 2980 at Shoemaker. And then nearly had an assist to put the Owls up 2-1 with 15 to go. Although, tbh, the walk off Hail Mary OT2 goal vs Denison at Denison was pretty sweet too.
And those are the moments you nor him will ever forget.
It is sharing the love of your life with the love of your life!!!
I am a newby here but is it fair that all of Tufts success came with Shapiro ? Do we expect the same results with new leadership ?
The success always comes with the Coach.
Harvard people are smart people.
The problem also is Covid. Came at a bad time for Tufts.
I think that being in the NESCAC with 4 other Champions (Amherst/Williams/Conn College/Middlebury) means the pedigree will allow them to always make a run in the dance and who knows, but it is all about the Coach.
College coaches wear the GM hat as well and knows the recruiting/pipelines that teams are built on.
The team also adopts the Coach's personality (Tough/Hardnosed/Determined etc)
Finally, and more importantly, (besides himself) only a coach can give a player confidence. Some coaches are expert at this, like Shapiro.
Shapiro Tufts knocked Messiah off their Perch just like Fergie and Man United knocked off Liverpool.
The good thing for Tufts is now they are a certified championship, blue chip program. The players will ride that confidence knowing that whatever man has done man can do.
I can see them winning a championship (or 2) still, but definitely less likely without Shapiro.
To their credit, they brought in a young/good/hungry coach from Ithaca as a replacement and so far so good at the helm for him.
Should be a fun time in NESCAC and the country.
It seems that despite, Conn College being worthy champions, the crown and the title of best team in the country seem more up for grabs than any other time in the past 25 years.
Thx for personal reasons , hoping so me other up and comers make noise outside of the Nescac
Welcome d3 dad! Do you have a son playing in college?
I wouldn't count on much slippage from Tufts. They did barely lose in the Elite 8 last year. I agree with SOL in general about the coach but there's also a culture that can continue, just like a coaching change at Messiah did not come close to ending their run. Some schools have a very strong alumni base, and Tufts has evolved into one of those. They won't tolerate Tufts not being a consistent top tier contender and just like Messiah they will be disappointed any year they don't get to the Final Four or win it all.
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 20, 2022, 05:06:05 PM
It seems that despite, Conn College being worthy champions, the crown and the title of best team in the country seem more up for grabs than any other time in the past 25 years.
Imo this is absolutely true. There are definitely 8-10 teams that could win the whole thing and probably 12-15. Conn Coll kept the NESCAC train going, but honestly, even just 4-5 years ago Conn winning the title would have seemed like a pipe dream (and tbh feels a little bit like a pipe dream after the fact). So personally if I am affiliated with a team trying to break through I would draw encouragement from Conn winning it versus hoping Tufts will falter.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 20, 2022, 06:09:04 PM
Welcome d3 dad! Do you have a son playing in college?
Yes a freshman just dropped him off two days ago , excited to see how it goes
Congratulations! We might have sons on the same team :-) (Non nescac, drop off last week)
Quote from: Another Mom on August 22, 2022, 06:44:05 AM
Congratulations! We might have sons on the same team :-) (Non nescac, drop off last week)
Only works if W&L joined the NCAC over the weekend ;)
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 20, 2022, 06:33:33 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 20, 2022, 05:06:05 PM
It seems that despite, Conn College being worthy champions, the crown and the title of best team in the country seem more up for grabs than any other time in the past 25 years.
Imo this is absolutely true. There are definitely 8-10 teams that could win the whole thing and probably 12-15. Conn Coll kept the NESCAC train going, but honestly, even just 4-5 years ago Conn winning the title would have seemed like a pipe dream (and tbh feels a little bit like a pipe dream after the fact). So personally if I am affiliated with a team trying to break through I would draw encouragement from Conn winning it versus hoping Tufts will falter.
No doubt. Despite the concentration of previous recent winners, the nature of the game of soccer makes a dynasty very, very hard to come by. Just look at the past two national championship runs. Tufts in 2019 had some very very close games. Conn College in 2021 won the first round game on PKs, another one with a last minute set piece goal, a wild one in the Final 8 against Tufts and two tough games in the Final 4.
(modified by GS for formatting)
W&L is scrimmaging with an area team tonight.
What became of Vince Sciarrotta at W&L?
Here's a preview of Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, which was just barely picked to win SCIAC over Redlands in a close preseason coaches poll. Their biggest loss might be at GK, but getting 5th year senior Donaldson back at center back will help.
https://www.cmsathletics.org/sports/msoc/2022-23/releases/20220823juocea
I am gonna predict that this year will be remembered at least in part as the Covid Bonus Year. I'm also gonna predict that because so many seniors from last year are returning for their final season of eligibility that 2022 could be one of the best, most competitive seasons for D3 in a long time. Of course exaggerated excitement from crazed posters like myself is fairly typical with a week to go for opening day when everyone is still 0-0 and maybe as many as 40-50 teams believe they "got a shot." That caveat aside, imo there is a rare convergence of the Covid bonus year and more parity than ever at least at the top couple of tiers (and parity not due to regression to the mean but rather an improved standard of play and player quality among a larger range of programs), yielding a broader and deeper competitive landscape. By analogy, as I suggested in a prior post, I don't believe programs like Messiah, Tufts, and Amherst have slipped at all. Rather, I believe there are just a significantly larger number of teams than in past years capable of taking on the Falcons or Jumbos or Mammoths straight up with even odds to prevail. The teams that most immediately jump off the page in this category from my pov are W&L, North Park, Chicago, Kenyon, Trinity (TX), Conn Coll, Montclair...with Midd, Cortland, OWU, Calvin, St Olaf, John Carroll, a couple more UAAs like Wash U, Emory, UR, and/or NYU, F&M, Hopkins, Rowan, CMS or Redlands, Oneonta, Christopher Newport, etc also possibly in that group or knocking on the door. That's not including any number of potential surprise standouts, like maybe Wash College, SLU, Otterbein, Wesleyan, MIT, Stevens, Mary Washington, North Central, GAC, St Thomas (TX), RPI or RIT, etc.
In terms of my own partisanship, I am surprisingly pumped. I usually start seasons a bit more coy and conservative, and while anxious that there are never guarantees of anything including a NCAA bid, I am just gonna say that the Kenyon Owls are loaded. They lose only one starter, CB Sam Hosmer-Quint, a NCAA Postgrad Scholar and Fulbright award winner, who exhausted his eligibility. All of last year's other starters and every other player on the roster return. The Owls would be a handful just with that, but if even a couple of the 10 newcomers (8 frosh and 2 transfers) are difference makers they are gonna be very, very good. Away at John Carroll in the second game of the season should be a good test.
The team that keeps coming into my head is Chicago. The Maroons are as due for a title as Calvin....three Final Fours in five years. I can't figure out how many seniors from last year are returning yet but just the thought of Wada, Gillespie, and Yetishevsky is enough. And of course the snippets about their incoming frosh sound fantastic...seem to have excellent soccer credentials, a lot of Summa Cum Laudes, and a kid who won a "Socrates Award." Color me duly impressed.
I suppose one wild card with Chicago is having a new coach (and the second woman at a high profile men's program) and whether there will be any adjustment there. Of course Conn College did OK with a first-year skipper.
Wait so where did the W&L striker Zimmerman go?
I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't believe he left to play soccer at another school.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 26, 2022, 11:03:30 AM
I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't believe he left to play soccer at another school.
He is a California kid. While the Generals recruit athletically nationally, the school itself remains very southern. Who knows, maybe it just wasn't a great fit in the end? As an NJ kid I thought about it a few times during my time in Lexington. Or maybe there are a hundred other reasons to change schools or take a year off. Wish him well though. That was an electric run he had for the Generals end of last year and really provided a heck of a personal story to a great team season.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 25, 2022, 04:31:47 PM
The team that keeps coming into my head is Chicago. The Maroons are as due for a title as Calvin....three Final Fours in five years. I can't figure out how many seniors from last year are returning yet but just the thought of Wada, Gillespie, and Yetishevsky is enough. And of course the snippets about their incoming frosh sound fantastic...seem to have excellent soccer credentials, a lot of Summa Cum Laudes, and a kid who won a "Socrates Award." Color me duly impressed.
I suppose one wild card with Chicago is having a new coach (and the second woman at a high profile men's program) and whether there will be any adjustment there. Of course Conn College did OK with a first-year skipper.
Gotta love a school that introduces each of its new recruits by first describing their academic honors before describing their athletic achievements. Very D3.
Quote from: jknezek on August 26, 2022, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 26, 2022, 11:03:30 AM
I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't believe he left to play soccer at another school.
He is a California kid. While the Generals recruit athletically nationally, the school itself remains very southern. Who knows, maybe it just wasn't a great fit in the end? As an NJ kid I thought about it a few times during my time in Lexington. Or maybe there are a hundred other reasons to change schools or take a year off. Wish him well though. That was an electric run he had for the Generals end of last year and really provided a heck of a personal story to a great team season.
Off the topic of Adran -- the school has changed considerably since you attended! While Lexington is very Southern, W&L is less so. It's made huge, and continuing strides on the diversity and inclusion front, and its student body comes from all over.
(I am a little sensitive, since so many people think of the W&L of 25 years ago, and not as it is today.)
Quote from: Kuiper on August 26, 2022, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 25, 2022, 04:31:47 PM
The team that keeps coming into my head is Chicago. The Maroons are as due for a title as Calvin....three Final Fours in five years. I can't figure out how many seniors from last year are returning yet but just the thought of Wada, Gillespie, and Yetishevsky is enough. And of course the snippets about their incoming frosh sound fantastic...seem to have excellent soccer credentials, a lot of Summa Cum Laudes, and a kid who won a "Socrates Award." Color me duly impressed.
I suppose one wild card with Chicago is having a new coach (and the second woman at a high profile men's program) and whether there will be any adjustment there. Of course Conn College did OK with a first-year skipper.
Gotta love a school that introduces each of its new recruits by first describing their academic honors before describing their athletic achievements. Very D3.
The first kid, Alex Gomas, sounds like he should be a Power 5 All-Conference freshman starting defender at Stanford, Duke, or UCLA who already has received a Rhodes Scholarship. President's Academic List all four years (I assume means no B+'s in four years), Summa, President's Award for National Latin Exam....AND...Georgia state POY, ECNL 1st Team All Conference.
Then there's Alex Lee...USYS National League leading goal scorer (2019-2020), MLS Next Southeast leading goal scorer (2021-2022), National Team Training Camp Invitee.
And last (alphabetically), poor Kai Walsh who has no academic achievements listed.
https://express.adobe.com/page/er6LmLSoGDK26/
Gotta say I didn't find the formatting visually and reader friendly.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 26, 2022, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: jknezek on August 26, 2022, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 26, 2022, 11:03:30 AM
I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't believe he left to play soccer at another school.
He is a California kid. While the Generals recruit athletically nationally, the school itself remains very southern. Who knows, maybe it just wasn't a great fit in the end? As an NJ kid I thought about it a few times during my time in Lexington. Or maybe there are a hundred other reasons to change schools or take a year off. Wish him well though. That was an electric run he had for the Generals end of last year and really provided a heck of a personal story to a great team season.
Off the topic of Adran -- the school has changed considerably since you attended! While Lexington is very Southern, W&L is less so. It's made huge, and continuing strides on the diversity and inclusion front, and its student body comes from all over.
(I am a little sensitive, since so many people think of the W&L of 25 years ago, and not as it is today.)
Definitely possible. I haven't been back in a couple years though I try to get to any athletic event that hits Sewanee or B-SC on a weekend. It probably doesn't help that my fraternity is now one of the most southern on campus, though it wasn't when I was there, and I get a lot of networking from those students. It also probably doesn't help that I live in Birmingham and am often talking with W&L students and alums from this area. I think our sendoff event in 2019 from the Birmingham area had about 40 first years, so 10% of the incoming class came from this area alone.
Quote from: Dark Knight on August 19, 2022, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little?
Calvin (ending up at #9 last year) had 4 seniors starters on the team last year, including the team leading scorer and central defender, both All-Americans. Senior starters accounted for 39% of goals scored.
Rumor has it that Calvin has a strong recruiting class, including 3 D1 transfers. Of course, it remains to be seen whether coach can form these players into a coherent team by August 30...
Kadin Shaban, who played at Michigan State last year, is on the roster, as is Colin Iverson, who was a starting defender at Carthage. I believe those are the only 2 new players on the roster who transferred in.
Quote from: calvin_grad on August 28, 2022, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: Dark Knight on August 19, 2022, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little?
Calvin (ending up at #9 last year) had 4 seniors starters on the team last year, including the team leading scorer and central defender, both All-Americans. Senior starters accounted for 39% of goals scored.
Rumor has it that Calvin has a strong recruiting class, including 3 D1 transfers. Of course, it remains to be seen whether coach can form these players into a coherent team by August 30...
Kadin Shaban, who played at Michigan State last year, is on the roster, as is Colin Iverson, who was a starting defender at Carthage. I believe those are the only 2 new players on the roster who transferred in.
I saw a lot of Iverson last year. He's a 6'5 beast who made All-CCIW First Team as a sophomore last season for the Firebirds. He has the potential to be a great one.
I'm guessing that in this case Calvin was the beneficiary of Carthage's coaching change.
Anyone interested in participating in the D3soccer Fan poll this season?
If you are interested in participating, I will run the poll again if we get enough pollsters. My only caveat is that if you agree to participate you try your best to do it every week so that things are consistent. Also, you try to be on time because it's no fun for anyone if I have to track you down every week and pester you to get your votes in.
Unless someone has a better idea, I'll run it the same as last year with the same deadlines, so the poll will include games that start before Sunday at midnight EST and will be due to me before Tuesday EST at midnight and I will try to post on Wednesday.
I will not do a preseason poll. I hate them. They set up a ton of positional bias and, especially with 400+ teams in D3, there simply is no way to do a good one. The first poll will be based on games played prior to 9/11 and will be due to me on 9/13. That gives us roughly 2 weeks of games to start making judgements.
If you are interested, and I realize we about 2 weeks out, please send me a PM. I hope we get our pollsters back from last year, as they did an excellent job, but if you want to join in, I'm always open to more!
Mystery solved. Hector Gomez, who would have been a leading candidate for D3 NPOY at OWU, is using his last year of eligibility as a grad student at D1 Cleveland State. In two games thus far, Hector has logged 47 minutes versus Canisius and 50 minutes versus UIC, both victories for the Vikings.
More power to him man. Seems like a true baller. Many players would have stayed and pushed themselves and team to even higher levels, maybe a championship, but he chose to challenge himself on an individual level to show he can do it in the Champions league.
I tell people that elite D3 soccer players are at PSG normally among other amazing players on the team. The level is not that much different at all. Not like you will see for the very top D3 hockey/football/basketball programs compared to their D1 comrades.
Acclimation is key, but people should use this example to appreciate some of the special players we have in this league.
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 31, 2022, 09:31:45 AM
More power to him man. Seems like a true baller. Many players would have stayed and pushed themselves and team to even higher levels, maybe a championship, but he chose to challenge himself on an individual level to show he can do it in the Champions league.
I tell people that elite D3 soccer players are at PSG normally among other amazing players on the team. The level is not that much different at all. Not like you will see for the very top D3 hockey/football/basketball programs compared to their D1 comrades.
Acclimation is key, but people should use this example to appreciate some of the special players we have in this league.
Hard to know. I'm not sure OWU has any graduate programs or if whatever limited graduate studies there would have made any sense for him. It's clear, though, that he didn't time his graduation in lockstep with his eligibility.
Trinity (TX) finally posted their roster (https://trinitytigers.com/sports/msoc/2022-23/roster). They return nine seniors exercising their COVID year. Their top 12 scorers return, led by AA Michael Meese (16 GS, 4A in 15 GP). Starting keeper Juan Carlos Vidales is one of the fifth-year returnees. AA Jacob Galan's defensive presence (graduation) will be sorely missed.
A total of 36 players return; among the 22 added to this year's roster are Louie Instrall, a transfer from Marshall who saw no playing time last season and Dylan McGinlay from San Antonio Alamo Heights HS. If the name seems a little familiar - yes, that is Coach McGinlay's son.
Seriously, a 58 man roster??!
I have yet to hear a good reason to have more that 28 men on a football team.
Even with injuries/form/rotations there is no need to have those big numbers.
But hey, those trinity boys are always very good and won a National Championship so they might know what they are doing.
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 31, 2022, 11:00:26 AM
I have yet to hear a good reason to have more that 28 men on a football team.
Even with injuries/form/rotations there is no need to have those big numbers.
But hey, those trinity boys are always very good and won a National Championship so they might know what they are doing.
Many division III schools are enrollment driven and its a good way to pump enrollment at those schools to keep the lights on by requiring sports to carry a specific number of athletes. Not saying this is the case at trinity but seems like if you want to keep your job that would be a pretty good reason to carry a large roster
Quote from: VASoccer11 on August 31, 2022, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on August 31, 2022, 11:00:26 AM
I have yet to hear a good reason to have more that 28 men on a football team.
Even with injuries/form/rotations there is no need to have those big numbers.
But hey, those trinity boys are always very good and won a National Championship so they might know what they are doing.
Many division III schools are enrollment driven and its a good way to pump enrollment at those schools to keep the lights on by requiring sports to carry a specific number of athletes. Not saying this is the case at trinity but seems like if you want to keep your job that would be a pretty good reason to carry a large roster
If you listen to Simple Coach's quick shot of his interview with the Marietta coach, which he posted yesterday, the Marietta coach is very open and honest about his fairly formal and official relationship with the Admissions department and about how his university and others are investing in athletics to help drive enrollment. I think 58 players usually means the team is scheduling some reserve team games (local community colleges, NAIA, even semi-pro teams), which probably has some developmental and morale advantages over being one of the last few players in a 28 player roster that never play a single minute in a season, but regardless it's clear that this is about enrollment/admissions. Based on what the coach said, it's not just that larger rosters helps keep his job, but it also helps get him facility improvements, even if they do include a fairly ugly blue field.
Many division III schools are enrollment driven and its a good way to pump enrollment at those schools to keep the lights on by requiring sports to carry a specific number of athletes
but does this not fester discontent and ultimately larger player movement?
Quote from: camosfan on August 31, 2022, 01:07:08 PM
Many division III schools are enrollment driven and its a good way to pump enrollment at those schools to keep the lights on by requiring sports to carry a specific number of athletes
but does this not fester discontent and ultimately larger player movement?
I would think it would. But, if your 1-22 are playing, you'd assume they are happy. As long as the school brings in X dollars, Im fairly certain they won't be bothered but if its a 4 year bench player or a new recruit each season. As long as the bottom line is met, I bet they are okay with turnover.
Quote from: VASoccer11 on August 31, 2022, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: camosfan on August 31, 2022, 01:07:08 PM
Many division III schools are enrollment driven and its a good way to pump enrollment at those schools to keep the lights on by requiring sports to carry a specific number of athletes
but does this not fester discontent and ultimately larger player movement?
I would think it would. But, if your 1-22 are playing, you'd assume they are happy. As long as the school brings in X dollars, Im fairly certain they won't be bothered but if its a 4 year bench player or a new recruit each season. As long as the bottom line is met, I bet they are okay with turnover.
Speaking as an alumnus of a school whose team has had a roster well north of 50 players for the past few seasons, I can tell you that this is exactly the case. "Fester" and "discontent" might be stronger words than I would use, because no soccer newbie arrives on campus for the first time with any illusions about the size of the roster; after all, it's right there online for all to see. If you're unhappy with where you are in that very large pecking order, you don't see it as an institutional problem; you see it as a series of personal obstacles to overcome in terms of the depth chart. And, as VAsoccer11 alluded, most of the players who don't progress up the depth chart and/or who get limited playing time in reserve games, simply either get fed up or see the writing on the wall, leaving the team in preseason or not coming back for the next season. At North Park, the dropoff usually takes place among the walk-ons or the players who had minimal contact with the coaching staff prior to enrolling.
My handle shows how old I am (roughly) and I spent about a dozen years coaching elite youth (girls). My issue, or really more of a question, is how in the heck do you run effective practices with that many kids? Do they just divide up the top 1-25 (or whatever) and 26-xx and let the latter group just go off on your own?
The only time I've run training sessions with that amount of kids is when my club would have the teams from a given age group do combined training. It can be done with stations and then rotating scrimmages (4 squads, each playing each other, then moving around). But that was, IMO, not all that effective and made it REALLY difficult to focus on individuals AND group tactics and dynamics.
I'm sure much smarter and better trained coaches have figured it out, but, man... seems like a real hassle.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on August 31, 2022, 03:34:36 PM
My handle shows how old I am (roughly) and I spent about a dozen years coaching elite youth (girls). My issue, or really more of a question, is how in the heck do you run effective practices with that many kids? Do they just divide up the top 1-25 (or whatever) and 26-xx and let the latter group just go off on your own?
I don't know how other programs do it, but at NPU the varsity and the reserves practice separately once the season starts.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on August 31, 2022, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on August 31, 2022, 03:34:36 PM
My handle shows how old I am (roughly) and I spent about a dozen years coaching elite youth (girls). My issue, or really more of a question, is how in the heck do you run effective practices with that many kids? Do they just divide up the top 1-25 (or whatever) and 26-xx and let the latter group just go off on your own?
I don't know how other programs do it, but at NPU the varsity and the reserves practice separately once the season starts.
That's the odd thing about Trinity. North Park lists a HC, two ACs, and a volunteer asst. That's enough to handle what is effectively two teams. Trinity only lists one HC and one AC. Maybe they have more who aren't listed, but bringing in more players without springing for more coaches just degrades the experience for everyone.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 31, 2022, 09:24:09 AM
Mystery solved. Hector Gomez, who would have been a leading candidate for D3 NPOY at OWU, is using his last year of eligibility as a grad student at D1 Cleveland State. In two games thus far, Hector has logged 47 minutes versus Canisius and 50 minutes versus UIC, both victories for the Vikings.
Cleveland State??? Ok I guess.....That is a tough loss for OWU especially if his teammates were expecting him back. Kind of a slap in the face OR like u said maybe it was planned from the get go.
Quote from: Mr.Right on August 31, 2022, 09:07:01 PM
Kind of a slap in the face OR like u said maybe it was planned from the get go.
Kinda harsh. Looks like he graduated and is now getting a graduate degree which isn't available at OWU.
yea maybe a little harsh ur right. I am still getting used to all this jumping around for players
Quote from: Kuiper on August 31, 2022, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on August 31, 2022, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on August 31, 2022, 03:34:36 PM
My handle shows how old I am (roughly) and I spent about a dozen years coaching elite youth (girls). My issue, or really more of a question, is how in the heck do you run effective practices with that many kids? Do they just divide up the top 1-25 (or whatever) and 26-xx and let the latter group just go off on your own?
I don't know how other programs do it, but at NPU the varsity and the reserves practice separately once the season starts.
That's the odd thing about Trinity. North Park lists a HC, two ACs, and a volunteer asst. That's enough to handle what is effectively two teams. Trinity only lists one HC and one AC. Maybe they have more who aren't listed, but bringing in more players without springing for more coaches just degrades the experience for everyone.
Man, for someone with zero knowledge of a program you're casting a lot of judgement on it. Trinity has large rosters every year. Kids keep coming and most of them stick around. Could be that soccer isn't the sole reason some of these players make the journey to South Texas, it could be they find ways to set expectations and keep players engaged, or maybe both. A program doesn't go 531-87-34 over 31 years by treating its student-athletes poorly.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on August 31, 2022, 11:55:31 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on August 31, 2022, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on August 31, 2022, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on August 31, 2022, 03:34:36 PM
My handle shows how old I am (roughly) and I spent about a dozen years coaching elite youth (girls). My issue, or really more of a question, is how in the heck do you run effective practices with that many kids? Do they just divide up the top 1-25 (or whatever) and 26-xx and let the latter group just go off on your own?
I don't know how other programs do it, but at NPU the varsity and the reserves practice separately once the season starts.
That's the odd thing about Trinity. North Park lists a HC, two ACs, and a volunteer asst. That's enough to handle what is effectively two teams. Trinity only lists one HC and one AC. Maybe they have more who aren't listed, but bringing in more players without springing for more coaches just degrades the experience for everyone.
Man, for someone with zero knowledge of a program you're casting a lot of judgement on it. Trinity has large rosters every year. Kids keep coming and most of them stick around. Could be that soccer isn't the sole reason some of these players make the journey to South Texas, it could be they find ways to set expectations and keep players engaged, or maybe both. A program doesn't go 531-87-34 over 31 years by treating its student-athletes poorly.
My apologies. My post was not meant to give offense to you or cast aspersions on Trinity as an institution. I'm probably one of the few people on this board to actually have lived in San Antonio (I've lived in Dallas too) and currently live in Region X, so I know Trinity has a strong academic reputation and I know they attract students from all over. Plus, I have relatives who lived in Alamo Heights (and went there for HS) and I see a number of people from Alamo Hts HS on the roster, which is not surprising since it's a popular school locally too among those who don't want the UT/A&M experience.
Rather, my post was meant to state my surprise that they have 58 players, but the same size staff as a school with half as many players and to express my opinion that this is not as good for the experience of players as having more coaches to handle all of those players (one of the reasons I started a thread awhile back about reserve teams and large rosters). Other schools with really large rosters plow some of that extra money back into larger staffs. As you say, perhaps Trinity does a bunch of other great things. If so, it would be nice to hear about them since growing roster sizes is happening in a lot of places.
I'm not on the inside of Trinity soccer, but I love watching and plan to be at the games on Saturday and Sunday this week. Might get the chance to talk to some parents/others. I'll see what I can glean.
From observation, the mood of the team is very positive and relaxed, and I can't imagine players making the decision to go to TU are not aware of the caliber of the team and the likelihood of playing.
Side note: Football and Volleyball are also home this weekend, and all will play on Saturday night. Volleyball plays the defending national champ, UW-Eau Claire, in the gym while football plays outside. Which to watch?
Nice to be back in the swirl of college sports!
Now that I can do a proper, quick scan thanks to D3soccer.com...I noticed a few games that I overlooked on my first go around...
3:00 -- Carleton @ Ramapo -- Don't know if this will be an interesting game but Carleton did make the NCCA tourney last year and bowed out to North Park, but rarely do you see a Region IX team go on the road to take on a Region IV squad...and seems even more unusual as often such trips involve a pair of games. Not the case here as Carleton next plays North Central.
4:00 -- Wartburg @ GAC -- GAC had a strong season last year and usually is good. Wartburg had a few years more than a half-decade ago of tense battles with Loras who at the time was a top 3 program in the country.
5:00 -- MIT @ Gordon -- Could be a sneaky good game with strong regional interest.
5:00 -- F&M @ Leb Valley -- Leb Valley has been an improving program and a win over F&M would give them a big early boost, while F&M, the Kenyon of the East, needs to show they can be more than a very good Sweet 16 team.
7:00 -- Brockport St @ RIT -- Oneonta and Cortland tend to grab all the SUNYAC attention but Brockport, Buff St, Plattsburgh have had some good teams....and our SLU/Liberty League friends seem to be very high on RIT.
7:00 -- Centre @ Otterbein -- Very solid intersectional battle. Centre made the Final Four in a semi-shock in 2019, and Otterbein just had one of their very best years in recent memory. A W could be very important for both.
7:00 -- JCU @ Oberlin -- JCU should handle the Yeomen with relative ease but long-time skipper Blake New has a history of pulling an upset...like in 2013 when Oberlin made a rare NCAA tourney appearance replete with an opening round 2-0 win over mighty Oneonta St despite Oneonta outshooting the Yeomen something like 32-3 at Fauver Stadium in the middle of campus at University of Rochester.
7:00 -- Elizabethtown @ York (PA) -- Not one that really interests me but those Mid-Atlantic fans really love their Mid-Atlantic soccer.
7:00 -- Salisbury @ Washington College -- First chance for Wash Coll to verify last season's dramatic emergence on the national scene against Salisbury which a handful of years ago seemed like a steady, marginal NCAA tourney candidate but seems to have slipped.
7:30 -- SLU @ Geneseo St -- The kind of early game that could send the Saints faithful into a dark place. Would be nice to see SLU get off to a strong start.
7:30 -- Willamette @ Colorado College -- Nothing caps off a great evening like a nice Region X tilt with the Pac NW colliding with a SCAC perennial bridesmaid to Trinity (TX).
Just wondering how the tailgating and pep rally are going in Lexington, VA.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 01, 2022, 02:32:28 PM
Now that I can do a proper, quick scan thanks to D3soccer.com...I noticed a few games that I overlooked on my first go around...
3:00 -- Carleton @ Ramapo -- Don't know if this will be an interesting game but Carleton did make the NCCA tourney last year and bowed out to North Park, but rarely do you see a Region IX team go on the road to take on a Region IV squad...and seems even more unusual as often such trips involve a pair of games. Not the case here as Carleton next plays North Central.
4:00 -- Wartburg @ GAC -- GAC had a strong season last year and usually is good. Wartburg had a few years more than a half-decade ago of tense battles with Loras who at the time was a top 3 program in the country.
5:00 -- MIT @ Gordon -- Could be a sneaky good game with strong regional interest.
5:00 -- F&M @ Leb Valley -- Leb Valley has been an improving program and a win over F&M would give them a big early boost, while F&M, the Kenyon of the East, needs to show they can be more than a very good Sweet 16 team.
7:00 -- Brockport St @ RIT -- Oneonta and Cortland tend to grab all the SUNYAC attention but Brockport, Buff St, Plattsburgh have had some good teams....and our SLU/Liberty League friends seem to be very high on RIT.
7:00 -- Centre @ Otterbein -- Very solid intersectional battle. Centre made the Final Four in a semi-shock in 2019, and Otterbein just had one of their very best years in recent memory. A W could be very important for both.
7:00 -- JCU @ Oberlin -- JCU should handle the Yeomen with relative ease but long-time skipper Blake New has a history of pulling an upset...like in 2013 when Oberlin made a rare NCAA tourney appearance replete with an opening round 2-0 win over mighty Oneonta St despite Oneonta outshooting the Yeomen something like 32-3 at Fauver Stadium in the middle of campus at University of Rochester.
7:00 -- Elizabethtown @ York (PA) -- Not one that really interests me but those Mid-Atlantic fans really love their Mid-Atlantic soccer.
7:00 -- Salisbury @ Washington College -- First chance for Wash Coll to verify last season's dramatic emergence on the national scene against Salisbury which a handful of years ago seemed like a steady, marginal NCAA tourney candidate but seems to have slipped.
7:30 -- SLU @ Geneseo St -- The kind of early game that could send the Saints faithful into a dark place. Would be nice to see SLU get off to a strong start.
7:30 -- Willamette @ Colorado College -- Nothing caps off a great evening like a nice Region X tilt with the Pac NW colliding with a SCAC perennial bridesmaid to Trinity (TX).
Rowan at JHU? Kickoff was at 1. Watching now. Very good second half.
Hear ya go, SC....from my 8-19-22 post...didn't want to repeat my original headliners...
Newman's Late Summer Menu Selections (through September 14 with online ordering available)
Two Chef's Specials above all others...Messiah @ W&L on opening day and the NESCAC heavyweight tournament that should be played at one venue as a doubleheader on Sept. 10.
September 1, 2022
Messiah @ W&L $$$$$
Rochester @ Cortland St $$$$
Rowan @ Hopkins $$$$
RPI @ Montclair $$$
Chicago @ Kzoo $$
Ohio Northern @ Kenyon $$
Centre @ Otterbein $
Wash U @ Carthage $
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 01, 2022, 03:00:33 PM
Hear ya go, SC....from my 8-19-22 post...didn't want to repeat my original headliners...
Newman's Late Summer Menu Selections (through September 14 with online ordering available)
Two Chef's Specials above all others...Messiah @ W&L on opening day and the NESCAC heavyweight tournament that should be played at one venue as a doubleheader on Sept. 10.
September 1, 2022
Messiah @ W&L $$$$$
Rochester @ Cortland St $$$$
Rowan @ Hopkins $$$$
RPI @ Montclair $$$
Chicago @ Kzoo $$
Ohio Northern @ Kenyon $$
Centre @ Otterbein $
Wash U @ Carthage $
Yeah saw the original post. I'll take one of everything please.
SC.
Looks like Cortland has three more D1 transfers this year in the starting lineup. 5 total.
Quote from: stlawus on September 01, 2022, 03:40:47 PM
Looks like Cortland has three more D1 transfers this year in the starting lineup. 5 total.
Nothing says D3 is (almost) as good as D1 more than a team full of D1 transfers playing for a D3....or something.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 01, 2022, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: stlawus on September 01, 2022, 03:40:47 PM
Looks like Cortland has three more D1 transfers this year in the starting lineup. 5 total.
Nothing says D3 is (almost) as good as D1 more than a team full of D1 transfers playing for a D3....or something.
With the pro game continuing to slowly wean itself off of heavily relying on the college ranks I think this is becoming more true. D1 soccer only has 9.5 scholarships as it is, so the majority of the D1 player pool are not on scholarship. As it is an upper half D3 player is not that far away from a D1 walk on in terms of quality.
All-American Michael Kutsanzira did not play for Washington & Lee in their opener and All-American Amer Lukovic did not play for Montclair State in their opener. Injuries? Anybody have any insight?
I believe Michael was serving his suspension for the red card he got last season.
Kutsanzira was serving his red card suspension from last year's final four match.
Quote from: stlawus on September 01, 2022, 03:49:36 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 01, 2022, 03:44:02 PM
Quote from: stlawus on September 01, 2022, 03:40:47 PM
Looks like Cortland has three more D1 transfers this year in the starting lineup. 5 total.
Nothing says D3 is (almost) as good as D1 more than a team full of D1 transfers playing for a D3....or something.
With the pro game continuing to slowly wean itself off of heavily relying on the college ranks I think this is becoming more true. D1 soccer only has 9.5 scholarships as it is, so the majority of the D1 player pool are not on scholarship. As it is an upper half D3 player is not that far away from a D1 walk on in terms of quality.
Apples and oranges, but I've long held that the gap between D3 and D1 soccer is smaller than D3 and D1 football. Many top D3 players likely had offers to go D1 but chose D3 for one or more of academics, playing time, better coach fit, etc. Put it this way, I would be far less surprised to see D3 players in the MLS than the NFL, although we also must be realistic about being a mid-tier global league in a country where the game is up-and-coming vs. the top league in the only country where the game is played with any kind of fervor (not counting the London Sillinannies (https://familyguy.fandom.com/wiki/London_Sillinannies)).
If we're looking at last year's champions in the two levels of the two sports, I would give Conn. College a better chance of being competitive with Clemson than Mary Hardin-Baylor hanging with Georgia on a given day.
Some of that is likely due to soccer's random and low-scoring nature (http://"https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/science/soccer-a-beautiful-game-of-chance.html") (NYT: the better team wins 50% of the time in soccer, 60% in baseball, and 66% in football/basketball), and CC might pick up a draw or even win the odd game, but the latter simply has more squad depth and athleticism and (I would assume) will win more times than not. Still, it would appear to be more of a contest than if M H-B showed up and played Georgia.
Quote from: Another Mom on September 02, 2022, 08:18:21 AM
I believe Michael was serving his suspension for the red card he got last season.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on September 02, 2022, 08:18:54 AM
Kutsanzira was serving his red card suspension from last year's final four match.
Ahh, that's right. Forgot about that. Thanks.
W&L had a lot more turnover since last season than Messiah, and you add to that Kutsanzira not being available (and the revenge factor), and it's not surprising that Messiah played significantly better on opening day.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 02, 2022, 09:20:45 AM
Quote from: Another Mom on September 02, 2022, 08:18:21 AM
I believe Michael was serving his suspension for the red card he got last season.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on September 02, 2022, 08:18:54 AM
Kutsanzira was serving his red card suspension from last year's final four match.
Ahh, that's right. Forgot about that. Thanks.
W&L had a lot more turnover since last season than Messiah, and you add to that Kutsanzira not being available (and the revenge factor), and it's not surprising that Messiah played significantly better on opening day.
Yeah. Not really the start the Generals were looking for. But it's a long season, and maybe getting monkey stomped at the beginning will provide some motivation.
Is there anywhere I can watch it? Or does W&J not save recorded games??? Which seems to be the case.
SC.
Messiah looked good yesterday
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on September 02, 2022, 11:24:14 AM
Messiah looked good yesterday
Yes, they did. Based on a long history of slow starts to the season, in which very good teams (especially) tend to send the Falcons an early message, I didn't expect the game to be the breeze it frankly was. I thought it would be a one-goal game, either way, and was pretty anxious until the Falcons got a 3-goal lead.
Big factors played into this, of course. W & L played without several of their best players last fall, some of whom have graduated while others are no longer on the roster (Adrian Zimmerman, who was scorching hot in November) or had to sit this one out for an injury or a red card. At the same time, the Falcons' youngest starters were juniors (though they had their FR seasons wiped out to COVID) and several were 5-year players; and, their best player (Groothoff) was healthy enough last night to show why his absence for the whole tournament last year might have prevented the Falcons from another Final Four berth. And, his replacement for the tournament, Luke Brautigam, was also healthier than he was in the tournament, when he was obviously playing hurt. I know Groothoff had surgery in the off season, and I think Brautigam also did. Overall, the Falcons lost 3 starters from last year's game to graduation, one of whom (Trevor Goodling) was a third team AA and one of the best players in their system in his last two seasons. But, highly experienced players replaced all 3. Last year's team was exceptionally deep.
So--l doubt last night's results are indicative of very much, relative to W & L, but they do suggest that Messiah simply reloaded, as they used to do in the dynasty years.
Well, I hope the results were not indicative for W&L, but Messiah was clearly better on pretty much every front. It is true that some key players were not playing, but I think even with them Messiah would have won. W&L play again on Sunday; will be interesting to see what changes.
Also, W&L does not post game videos. You have to watch the livestream live, or miss it.
Quote from: Another Mom on September 02, 2022, 01:31:23 PM
Well, I hope the results were not indicative for W&L, but Messiah was clearly better on pretty much every front. It is true that some key players were not playing, but I think even with them Messiah would have won. W&L play again on Sunday; will be interesting to see what changes.
Also, W&L does not post game videos. You have to watch the livestream live, or miss it.
@Another Mom. I fully expect you to scold Washington & Lee for making my life much more difficult to manage.
Thanks Mom.
SC.
W&L does have quite a few home matches available on-demand from last year including the NCAA matches.
https://generalssports.com/sports/2019/10/14/washington-and-lee-all-access.aspx
And for later today....
5:00 -- Eastern-Christopher Newport
6:00 -- Dubuque-Knox (any day you get to write the words 'Prairie Fire' it's a good day)
7:00 -- Denison-Springfield (OWU alum vs OWU alum...Springfield with Chayne Bruneau, ex-Kenyon defender...and atypical NCAC vs New England battle)
7:00 -- Redlands-Calvin (I'm getting W&L vs Messiah vibes here so look for possible blowout...hopefully not as on paper the game of the day)
7:00 -- CWRU-OWU (not sure what to expect from CWRU)
7:00 -- Convenant-Emory (0-0 draw to open up last season and no doubt Emory still smarting from quick NCAA tourney exit)
7:00 -- Hardin-Simmons-Hope (for Hope the beginning of post-Brandt era)
7:00 -- Loras-Capital
Very curious to see Denison @ Brandeis on Sunday...the Judges blew out Western New England yesterday and after a subpar 2021 Brandeis may be a squad being overlooked. Will be very surprised if Denison can get a result but just the kind of game an emerging program wants to show well in.
And where the heck is @Ommadawn??
He (or she) didn't post often, but when he did, he preferred Dos Equis...and consistently knocked posts out of the park while nary picking up a crumb of negative karma.
Christopher Newport has one of the nicest D3 complexes in the country. Field looks great.
Quote from: calvin_grad on August 28, 2022, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: Dark Knight on August 19, 2022, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little?
Calvin (ending up at #9 last year) had 4 seniors starters on the team last year, including the team leading scorer and central defender, both All-Americans. Senior starters accounted for 39% of goals scored.
Rumor has it that Calvin has a strong recruiting class, including 3 D1 transfers. Of course, it remains to be seen whether coach can form these players into a coherent team by August 30...
Kadin Shaban, who played at Michigan State last year, is on the roster, as is Colin Iverson, who was a starting defender at Carthage. I believe those are the only 2 new players on the roster who transferred in.
Also # 8 Josh Williams, a transfer from Western Michigan University.
Crazy, scrappy, inelegant game so far against Redlands—lots of work to do. But four of Calvin's starters are new to the program as of a couple weeks ago, so it's not too surprising.
Impressed by Denison being up 3-0 in 1st half at Springfield.
And Methodist @ New England College is an unexpected pair. Nice trip to New England for the Fayetteville, NC based school. They play Maine-Presque Isle next.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 02, 2022, 08:11:03 PM
Impressed by Denison being up 3-0 in 1st half at Springfield.
And Methodist @ New England College is an unexpected pair. Nice trip to New England for the Fayetteville, NC based school. They play Maine-Presque Isle next.
... better known as UMPI (pronounced "umpy"), one of the more colorful acronyms in American higher education.
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on September 02, 2022, 02:33:23 PM
W&L does have quite a few home matches available on-demand from last year including the NCAA matches.
https://generalssports.com/sports/2019/10/14/washington-and-lee-all-access.aspx
Yes, last year's games. This season's games won't be available until 2023, I am fairly certain.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 02, 2022, 06:57:08 PM
Christopher Newport has one of the nicest D3 complexes in the country. Field looks great.
My son went on a recruiting trip there. The entire campus is absolutely gorgeous and the facilities are top notch.
Quote from: Dark Knight on September 02, 2022, 07:51:34 PM
Quote from: calvin_grad on August 28, 2022, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: Dark Knight on August 19, 2022, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 17, 2022, 10:10:41 AM
There are a number of teams that would be great to get a preview on for those who know. Calvin comes to mind...a typical Calvin team this year or down just a little?
Calvin (ending up at #9 last year) had 4 seniors starters on the team last year, including the team leading scorer and central defender, both All-Americans. Senior starters accounted for 39% of goals scored.
Rumor has it that Calvin has a strong recruiting class, including 3 D1 transfers. Of course, it remains to be seen whether coach can form these players into a coherent team by August 30...
Kadin Shaban, who played at Michigan State last year, is on the roster, as is Colin Iverson, who was a starting defender at Carthage. I believe those are the only 2 new players on the roster who transferred in.
Also # 8 Josh Williams, a transfer from Western Michigan University.
Crazy, scrappy, inelegant game so far against Redlands—lots of work to do. But four of Calvin's starters are new to the program as of a couple weeks ago, so it's not too surprising.
Yep. Missed Josh Williams.
Lots of work to do on both ends of the field, but in my opinion, especially on defense. #11 and #2 for Redlands gave the Calvin backline fits all night with their speed. Giving up an own goal and a PK doesn't help your cause. Redlands had 23 shots, 11 of which were on goal, and definitely had more scoring chances in the run of play than Calvin did. Luckily, Calvin was able to put together some offense and scored 2 of their goals off of set pieces.
I assume Montclair will pull the game out but as I type MSU appears to be trailing Oswego St 1-0 midway thru 2nd half. Montclair cannot be trusted. You have to account for them because they are always good and could beat anybody on the day, but you just can't trust them in a big spot...a little like Trinity (TX) but even more so. By contrast, one almost never has that thought about Calvin (or Messiah). I didn't watch a lot of Redlands v Calvin but I tracked the score and every time I saw Redlands up a goal I was pretty sure the Bulldogs would not be able to close the deal. Calvin is very comfortable winning 1-0 or in a shootout. Even when down, they always seem confident about scoring.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 03, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
I assume Montclair will pull the game out but as I type MSU appears to be trailing Oswego St 1-0 midway thru 2nd half. Montclair cannot be trusted. You have to account for them because they are always good and could beat anybody on the day, but you just can't trust them in a big spot...a little like Trinity (TX) but even more so. By contrast, one almost never has that thought about Calvin (or Messiah). I didn't watch a lot of Redlands v Calvin but I tracked the score and every time I saw Redlands up a goal I was pretty sure the Bulldogs would not be able to close the deal. Calvin is very comfortable winning 1-0 or in a shootout. Even when down, they always seem confident about scoring.
Live stats have it wrong, MSU is up 1-0.
Quote from: stlawus on September 03, 2022, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 03, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
I assume Montclair will pull the game out but as I type MSU appears to be trailing Oswego St 1-0 midway thru 2nd half. Montclair cannot be trusted. You have to account for them because they are always good and could beat anybody on the day, but you just can't trust them in a big spot...a little like Trinity (TX) but even more so. By contrast, one almost never has that thought about Calvin (or Messiah). I didn't watch a lot of Redlands v Calvin but I tracked the score and every time I saw Redlands up a goal I was pretty sure the Bulldogs would not be able to close the deal. Calvin is very comfortable winning 1-0 or in a shootout. Even when down, they always seem confident about scoring.
Live stats have it wrong, MSU is up 1-0.
Thanks...just figured it out. Kind of a big error! And so I assume they had SOG backwards as well...something like 21 to 13.
Today's action...
In early action, Montclair did prevail as LS was wrong. Lukovic played as a sub unless that is wrong too.
Luther was up 1-0 on St. Norbert around the 53rd min in a big North region battle.
Ohio Northern is up 2-0 at home over Oberlin into the 2nd half.
MIT is in a 1:00 pm game at Endicott. After a tight loss to Gordon MIT need this one but the Gulls can be difficult.
Muhlenberg @ Scranton is a hardscrabble duel in Eastern PA also at 1:00.
Otterbein @ Trine at 1:30 (Eastern or Central?) is an interesting one...as Trine knocked off Calvin in their conf tourney final last year.
2:00 -- Messiah @ Lynchburg -- Will the Falcons have a letdown? Doubtful. We'll see how long Lynchburg can hang in as the Hornets are the primary ODAC rival to W&L.
2:00 -- KZoo @ North Central -- Sneaky good game. KZoo played Chicago tight and I'm curious to see how North Central follows up on last year's historic season.
2:30 -- Macalester @ UC Santa Cruz
3:00 -- WPI @ Skidmore -- Two teams always in the mix in the NEWMAC and LL and would be a good win for either side.
3:00 -- Colorado Coll @ Puget Sound
4:00 -- Centre @ Wilmington -- Centre comes in after getting smoked by Otterbein, and Wilmington, after one of their best seasons in years last year, is smarting after a 3-1 loss to DePauw.
4:00 -- St Mary's (MD) @ Gettysburg
4:00 -- Ithaca @ Texas Lutheran -- Very confusing as could not figure out why Ithaca would go to Texas and then play @ Stockton, but they're all playing in Salem, VA with Roanoke as the host.
4:30 -- Illinois Wesleyan @ Emory -- Emory looking for a W after 3-3 draw with Covenant.
4:30 -- St Olaf @ Wartburg
4:30 -- St John's (MN) @ Cal Lutheran -- The Johnnies play Cal Lutheran before switching foes with Macalester.
6:00 -- Kenyon @ John Carroll -- GAME OF THE DAY
6:00 -- Stockton @ Roanoke
6:30 -- UMass-Boston @ RPI
7:00 -- Loras @ OWU -- A decade ago this would have been the game of the week and one of the games of the season.
7:00 -- CWRU @ Capital
7:00 -- Redlands @ Hope -- The Bulldogs would hate to leave Holland, MI with a second loss after showing so well vs Calvin.
7:00 -- Hardin-Simmons @ Calvin
7:00 -- Covenant @ Oglethorpe -- Two lesser known but very recent NCAA tourney participants. Both give bigger name schools fits.
7:00 -- Rowan @ Southwestern -- Rowan's last tune-up before Trinity after dropping tight one at Hopkins.
7:30 -- Babson @ Rut-Newark -- This should be one of the better games of the day/night.
7:30 -- SLU @ Buffalo St -- Another SLU win and SLU nation will be prancing and dancing.
8:00 -- Wheaton (Ill) @ Chicago -- Will be interesting to see what kind of ballclub Wheaton has and whether they can threaten rival North Park.
8:00 -- Mary Hardin-Baylor @ St Thomas (TX)
9:30 -- Claremont-Mudd-Scripps @ Trinity (TX) -- GAME OF THE DAY #2
First things first. The news about D3soccer.com was tough enough. And then yesterday on the first major Saturday of the season we got a single post on the entire board here (@stlawus last night) after 2:00 pm. Not a good sign. Holiday weekend effect? I guess we'll have to get bailed out by the NESCAC crowd.
OK, let me get Kenyon out of the way. Huge win at a very difficult place to get a win. The JCU recap called it "an all-out war," and it basically was. The JCU announcers who did a nice job overall were already talking about the bad blood between the two schools and hating one another, and they wondered aloud inside of 5 minutes whether the referee would be able to manage the game. I thought the Owls got bullied all over the pitch as the Blue Streaks looked physically dominant imposing their will. Kenyon really struggled to adjust and one of the results was the Owls giving up (legitimately) a slew of free kicks and way too many corners. 11 cards total I believe. JCU led in cards something like 5-1 but the Owls ended up with 5 or 6 themselves. There obviously was a lot of chatting on the field and then afterwards things apparently turned ugly on the sidelines as the cameras turned away. JCU has strong talent but is replacing some key players so they should get better over the season. Both should compete for one of the top few spots in Great Lakes. They could definitely see each other again. Kenyon badly needs Muther and also Martinez having a bigger role (only 35 minutes after 23 in first game). But despite not looking great the Owls are 2-0 with wins over a good ONU and a very good JCU.
Elsewhere in Great Lakes, Otterbein cruised to 2-0 with a 2-0 road win at Trine. OWU probably outplayed Loras but suffered a 1-0 home loss to the Duhawks, after a disappointing draw with CWRU the night before. CWRU blew a 2-0 lead and lost to Capital 4-3. We'll see how Denison does today, but right now the top teams in Great Lakes are probably Kenyon, JCU, Otterbein, OWU, and Denison (not necessarily in that order).
OWU now awaits Calvin rolling into Delaware next weekend. The Knights spotted Hardin-Simmons two goals before pulling one back just before the 1st handed ended, and tacked on four more in the 2nd stanza.
Chicago was up 3-0 on Wheaton (Ill) before holding on for a 3-2 victory. Trinity (TX) dispatched C-M-S with apparent ease as Meese got his first tally of the season. North Central upended KZoo 2-1. The Babson Beavers picked up a nice road win at Rutgers-Newark 3-2. SLU and Buffalo St played a fast-paced game that ended in a 2-2 draw. In the North, Luther and St. Norbert also played to a 2-2 result.
In upset land, Wartburg eked out a 2-1 win over visiting St. Olaf. And UMass-Boston stunned RPI with a 2-1 away win. Probably not an upset, but Endicott bested MIT 3-2, leaving the Engineers at 0-2 already. Also surprised that Merchant Marine held NYU to a 0-0 draw.
Elsewhere, in a deep South battle, Covenant slipped past Oglethorpe 2-1. Gettysburg sailed past St Mary's (MD) 3-1. Drew got past New Paltz St. Virginia Wesleyan whacked Eastern 3-0. St Thomas (TX) crushed Mary Hardin-Baylor 4-1. WPI and Skidmore played to a predictable tie 1-1. Rowan rebounded in between the Profs' Hopkins-Trinity sandwich beating Southwestern in San Antonio 2-1. Scranton knocked off Muhlenberg 3-2. Haverford was held to a 1-1 draw with Wilkes. Colorado Coll and Puget Sound also played to a draw, 2-2.
Addendum: I forgot Redlands. The Bulldogs left Michigan 0-1-1. They led Calvin three times before losing 4-3 and in another heartbreak conceded to Hope in the dying moments to draw 1-1.
The headliner today has got to be Rowan @ Trinity (TX). 8:00 pm start there.
The two matches I'll follow closely are Denison @ Brandeis at 12:00 and North Park @ Ohio Northern at 1:00.
Here are some other really good ones...
Hopkins @ Lycoming at 1:00, Montclair @ Catholic at 2:00, GAC @ St Norbert at 2:30, Rutgers-Camden @ Swat at 3:00, Wash U @ Rose Hulman at 3:30, and F&M @ Stevens and Mt Union @ Rochester both at 4:00.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 04, 2022, 11:18:12 AM
First things first. The news about D3soccer.com was tough enough. And then yesterday on the first major Saturday of the season we got a single post on the entire board here (@stlawus last night) after 2:00 pm. Not a good sign. Holiday weekend effect? I guess we'll have to get bailed out by the NESCAC crowd.
OK, let me get Kenyon out of the way. Huge win at a very difficult place to get a win. The JCU recap called it "an all-out war," and it basically was. The JCU announcers who did a nice job overall were already talking about the bad blood between the two schools and hating one another, and they wondered aloud inside of 5 minutes whether the referee would be able to manage the game. I thought the Owls got bullied all over the pitch as the Blue Streaks looked physically dominant imposing their will. Kenyon really struggled to adjust and one of the results was the Owls giving up (legitimately) a slew of free kicks and way too many corners. 11 cards total I believe. JCU led in cards something like 5-1 but the Owls ended up with 5 or 6 themselves. There obviously was a lot of chatting on the field and then afterwards things apparently turned ugly on the sidelines as the cameras turned away. JCU has strong talent but is replacing some key players so they should get better over the season. Both should compete for one of the top few spots in Great Lakes. They could definitely see each other again. Kenyon badly needs Muther and also Martinez having a bigger role (only 35 minutes after 23 in first game). But despite not looking great the Owls are 2-0 with wins over a good ONU and a very good JCU.
Elsewhere in Great Lakes, Otterbein cruised to 2-0 with a 2-0 road win at Trine. OWU probably outplayed Loras but suffered a 1-0 home loss to the Duhawks, after a disappointing draw with CWRU the night before. CWRU blew a 2-0 lead and lost to Capital 4-3. We'll see how Denison does today, but right now the top teams in Great Lakes are probably Kenyon, JCU, Otterbein, OWU, and Denison (not necessarily in that order).
OWU now awaits Calvin rolling into Delaware next weekend. The Knights spotted Hardin-Simmons two goals before pulling one back just before the 1st handed ended, and tacked on four more in the 2nd stanza.
Chicago was up 3-0 on Wheaton (Ill) before holding on for a 3-2 victory. Trinity (TX) dispatched C-M-S with apparent ease as Meese got his first tally of the season. North Central upended KZoo 2-1. The Babson Beavers picked up a nice road win at Rutgers-Newark 3-2. SLU and Buffalo St played a fast-paced game that ended in a 2-2 draw. In the North, Luther and St. Norbert also played to a 2-2 result.
In upset land, Wartburg eked out a 2-1 win over visiting St. Olaf. And UMass-Boston stunned RPI with a 2-1 away win. Probably not an upset, but Endicott bested MIT 3-2, leaving the Engineers at 0-2 already. Also surprised that Merchant Marine held NYU to a 0-0 draw.
Elsewhere, in a deep South battle, Covenant slipped past Oglethorpe 2-1. Gettysburg sailed past St Mary's (MD) 3-1. Drew got past New Paltz St. Virginia Wesleyan whacked Eastern 3-0. St Thomas (TX) crushed Mary Hardin-Baylor 4-1. WPI and Skidmore played to a predictable tie 1-1. Rowan rebounded in between the Profs' Hopkins-Trinity sandwich beating Southwestern in San Antonio 2-1. Scranton knocked off Muhlenberg 3-2. Haverford was held to a 1-1 draw with Wilkes. Colorado Coll and Puget Sound also played to a draw, 2-2.
Addendum: I forgot Redlands. The Bulldogs left Michigan 0-1-1. They led Calvin three times before losing 4-3 and in another heartbreak conceded to Hope in the dying moments to draw 1-1.
Stlawus goes hard in his fandom man, as do all of us posters here.
The guys were more than likely watching the game or other games and just ran out of time to post.
All the big names mentioned above Kenyon/Wheaton et al know that the season is super young, but still always good to have a solid foundation to begin the season.
Buff State look to be a good team and will make some noise in SUNYAC.
Washington and Lee up 2-0 at halftime at Maryville. There have been several positional changes that have made a difference. W&L looking more like last year's team, but against weaker competition, so who knows how they will do with a more evenly matched opponent.
CNU 2-1 over Moravian yesterday. CNU went up 2-0 in the 2nd half and pouring on the pressure. Moravian with a nice header off a corner to make the last 7-8 minutes interesting. Moravian then hit a blistering shot from about 20 yards with seconds left that was saved by the CNU keeper to seal the win
Final score W&L 2 -1 Maryville. Maryville scored on a PK. Washington and Lee seems headed in the right direction, but still has a way to go.
I counted 28 ties out of 138 scores yesterday. That's 20% ties.
No doubt that's more than last year, but not tooo outrageous...
North Park prevails in a sloppy affair in the northwest corner of the Buckeye State, 3-2, over Ohio Northern. Hard to get a really good read, given that the game was played in a total deluge. In fact, kudos to ONU for the very nice drainage system at Kerscher Stadium; no issues with puddling or hydroplaning whatsoever, despite the fact that the rain never stopped and really came down very hard for much of the game.
NPU showed that it is still working in a bunch of new players, as well as a couple of guys who saw little or no varsity playing time last season. The Vikings clearly aren't on the same page as much as they need to be. On the plus side, in addition to maintaining the technical standards that is expected of Vikings teams, this team shows nice quickness and a flair for creativity on the attack that, if anything, exceeds last season's NPU edition. The Polar Bears were dogged, and took advantage of whatever breaks came their way to put forward some nice attacks, but they were both outgunned and, no doubt, a little tired from having to play their third contest in four days. (What was their coach thinking when he put together the schedule?)
Take the W, get on that nice dry bus, and head home to the Windy City.
I did not expect to see Stevens up 3-0 on F&M.
Montclair draws with Catholic.
Denison earns a draw at Brandeis. I didn't get to watch much but seems like the Big Red more than held their own, so even though we don't have a feel yet for where Brandeis may land in the UAA gauntlet a very good showing for Denison nonetheless.
GAC outlasted St. Norbert.
Wash U @ Rose Hulman was postponed due to weather.
RIT drew with Marietta for a second draw in two games. Not the start I think some were looking for.
Swat last I saw was up 3-0 late against Rutgers-Camden...and seems the latter has really dipped since being very good for at least several years in a row.
Re Denison @ Brandeis -- unlike some years where the team came away with a draw but relied heavily on its defense to hold back relentless attacks, this seemed much more balanced play. Denison attacked well, had some good chances and did not seem off-balance as had often been the case in the past. Coach Bianco is making his mark on the program, for sure.
Quote from: midwest on September 04, 2022, 06:19:04 PM
Re Denison @ Brandeis -- unlike some years where the team came away with a draw but relied heavily on its defense to hold back relentless attacks, this seemed much more balanced play. Denison attacked well, had some good chances and did not seem off-balance as had often been the case in the past. Coach Bianco is making his mark on the program, for sure.
Agreed. You described the difference perfectly. Playing much better overall soccer with some attacking flair and competence. Plus, the players and coach are very hungry for success. A juggernaut is brewing.
I forgot Hopkins drawing today with Lycoming 1-1 with both goals coming within a minute of one another. Interesting how often that happens. No one can score for the other 88 minutes but then both could score within a minute.
I also forgot to mention the Messiah draw with Lynchburg. Imo Lynchburg played pretty well with the Falcons in the 1st half and gradually began to tire in the second. Messiah clearly the stronger team but as a sort-of-neutral I thought a draw was mostly fair. Found myself mildly annoyed with the extent of McDonald's celebration so Lynchburg getting one in the final minute felt just.
First time posting on this board (longtime Babson follower).
It's very early, and the team hasn't entered the iron of the schedule, but this year's edition has the *potential* to be the best since the '91 National Semi team. They'll get tested plenty over the next month (Brandeis, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, et al) but I'm impressed by the overall depth, vets (jrs. srs. and grads), and production from new D1 xfers. And last year's UMass xfer Rainford has made a noticeably large improvement in his game. There are plenty of forwards that will command attention.
Can't wait for the historically #1 rivalry game against Brandeis. I just wish is was late in the season like it used to be.
Still there are concerns:
I'm still nervous about the back line and their ability to contain speed on the wings and the goalie has largely been untested.
They certainly need to work on defending set pieces which burned them twice against Rutgers-Newark (who impressed me).
Quote from: BaboNation on September 04, 2022, 06:46:15 PM
First time posting on this board (longtime Babson follower).
It's very early, and the team hasn't entered the iron of the schedule, but this year's edition has the *potential* to be the best since the '91 National Semi team. They'll get tested plenty over the next month (Brandeis, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, et al) but I'm impressed by the overall depth, vets (jrs. srs. and grads), and production from new D1 xfers. And last year's UMass xfer Rainford has made a noticeably large improvement in his game. There are plenty of forwards that will command attention.
Can't wait for the historically #1 rivalry game against Brandeis. I just wish is was late in the season like it used to be.
Still there are concerns:
I'm still nervous about the back line and their ability to contain speed on the wings and the goalie has largely been untested.
They certainly need to work on defending set pieces which burned them twice against Rutgers-Newark (who impressed me).
I haven't seen the Beavers yet but definitely off to a great start. MIT has disappointed thus far, Wheaton (MA) is not the Wheaton of past years, and Springfield looks weak. Coast Guard? WPI?
And the one team you left out of your gauntlet list just happens to be the defending national champs....
At Brandeis
Williams
At Tufts
Amherst
At Conn Coll
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 04, 2022, 07:04:26 PM
Quote from: BaboNation on September 04, 2022, 06:46:15 PM
First time posting on this board (longtime Babson follower).
It's very early, and the team hasn't entered the iron of the schedule, but this year's edition has the *potential* to be the best since the '91 National Semi team. They'll get tested plenty over the next month (Brandeis, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, et al) but I'm impressed by the overall depth, vets (jrs. srs. and grads), and production from new D1 xfers. And last year's UMass xfer Rainford has made a noticeably large improvement in his game. There are plenty of forwards that will command attention.
Can't wait for the historically #1 rivalry game against Brandeis. I just wish is was late in the season like it used to be.
Still there are concerns:
I'm still nervous about the back line and their ability to contain speed on the wings and the goalie has largely been untested.
They certainly need to work on defending set pieces which burned them twice against Rutgers-Newark (who impressed me).
I haven't seen the Beavers yet but definitely off to a great start. MIT has disappointed thus far, Wheaton (MA) is not the Wheaton of past years, and Springfield looks weak. Coast Guard? WPI?
And the one team you left out of your gauntlet list just happens to be the defending national champs....
At Brandeis
Williams
At Tufts
Amherst
At Conn Coll
Yeah, I knew Conn is on the schedule. I was just focusing on September. If they come out of the month at something like 6-1-2 I'll still think they are serious contenders.
The Trinity vs Rowan game was very enjoyable to watch. Two very good teams. A lot of goals. Rowan's third goal was a wonder-strike to level at 3-3...and Meese's cross from the right side with a very short backswing under 30 secs was special despite the Rowan GK managing to punch it out. All that said, why do NJAC teams have to be so...well....NJAC? As I write that I'm thinking the question is as silly as asking why fish swim.
And last year's UMass xfer Rainford has made a noticeably large improvement in his game. There are plenty of forwards that will command attention.
that #14 leftwinger really lift their game, in the match against Rutgers-Newark, they have a tough schedule plays the top of NESCAC, should help their national campaign.
Quote from: BaboNation on September 04, 2022, 08:11:45 PM
Yeah, I knew Conn is on the schedule. I was just focusing on September. If they come out of the month at something like 6-1-2 I'll still think they are serious contenders.
Longtime 'Deis booster, great couple of results for Babson to start with – I guess I've always known the Brandeis-Babson games to be in September but wasn't around for the '91 et al teams (2011-present).
Without knowing more it sounds like this could be the year that the Beavers make some noise nationally once again...IIRC the last time they went beyond the first weekend was the Sweet 16 in 2011. They have seemed to play better on the road vs. at home in the postseason (NEWMAC and NCAA) as most of their conference titles in recent years have been on the road, but at some point if the team is stacked you'll be able to perform anywhere. Sounds like there is a bit more technical quality/speed than the days with Anderson as the 9 and the team focused on slinging balls in from the side/over the top. Should be a good one on Saturday. Agreed that if they get out of September relatively unscathed they'll be favorites for the NEWMAC and maybe more.
This Link to D3Sports.com Conference Realignment should help everyone:
Salve Regina headed to Newmac and Univ of Hartford to replace Salve in the CCC in 2023.
https://www.d3sports.com/notables/conference-shuffle
Quote from: blooter442 on September 05, 2022, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: BaboNation on September 04, 2022, 08:11:45 PM
Yeah, I knew Conn is on the schedule. I was just focusing on September. If they come out of the month at something like 6-1-2 I'll still think they are serious contenders.
Longtime 'Deis booster, great couple of results for Babson to start with – I guess I've always known the Brandeis-Babson games to be in September but wasn't around for the '91 et al teams (2011-present).
Without knowing more it sounds like this could be the year that the Beavers make some noise nationally once again...IIRC the last time they went beyond the first weekend was the Sweet 16 in 2011. They have seemed to play better on the road vs. at home in the postseason (NEWMAC and NCAA) as most of their conference titles in recent years have been on the road, but at some point if the team is stacked you'll be able to perform anywhere. Sounds like there is a bit more technical quality/speed than the days with Anderson as the 9 and the team focused on slinging balls in from the side/over the top. Should be a good one on Saturday. Agreed that if they get out of September relatively unscathed they'll be favorites for the NEWMAC and maybe more.
Yeah, once the NEWMAC was formed the non-conference games tended to be played earlier. Til then Brandeis-Babson was typically the last Saturday, which was even better because both teams were in top form.
It was a different era for sure. I have so much respect for former coach Coven.
The '91 team had a stellar All-American goalie (Webber), lightning quick off his line and one of the all-time great scorers (Chris Connors), but like Eric Anderson '13 there wasn't as strong threats from the rest of the cast, so you could mark the star and often shut down the offense. The '91 team also had a coup in key leaders Terry Jackson who was the son of the Wesleyan coach at the time and Erik Isbrandtsen who died on 9/11.
This team feels deeper and stronger.
Washington and Lee play again today, at NC Wesleyan. I would say the team is a work in progress, and it will be interesting to see what happens today. Massey gives the edge to NC Wesleyan.
Live stream is not running, unfortunately, for the W&L game.
Well, with 10 minutes left in the game, the score is 6-1 Washington and Lee. Still no livestream, but from the stats it seems like the team is returning to last year's form.
Final score 7 -2
Week 1 National Roundup (by region)
Region I
The NESCAC heavyweights are just getting underway today. St Joseph's (ME), a "mid-major" media darling over the past half-decade, outshot Southern Maine 20-1 and led corners 13-1 and yet still managed to suffer a 1-0 defeat. Adding insult to injury, St. Joe's scored the goal for Southern Maine. Western Connecticut has raced out to a 3-0 record, taking down Vassar, Nichols, and Eastern Naz in succession. Norwich is 1-0-1 after getting a draw and a win versus close neighbors Endicott and Gordon. UMass-Boston has been all over the proverbial map, with a tie versus Salve Regina, a win over RPI, followed by a loss to Skidmore.
Region II
MIT failed its initial exam, dropping matches to Gordon and Endicott back-to-back to start 0-2. Tufts on tap tonight is probably not the algorithm the Engineers were looking for. Babson has made some noise, loud enough to bring a heyday old-timer out of his "long-time, first-time" shell. At 2-0 with a good win over Rutgers-Newark the Beavers need all the momentum they can get as the schedule awaiting could turn into a horror flick. Coast Guard and Salem St are 2-0 as well. The aforementioned Endicott stands at 1-0-1 after the draw with Norwich and the MIT victory. Brandeis is on the hunt to recapture recent glory and a 1-0-1 beginning seems promising, spanking Western New England 4-0 and earning a scoreless result with emergent Denison.
Region III
Almost every year some of us predict that Rochester will not get a NCAA bid but they always do. The Yellow Jackets smacked the much ballyhooed Cortland St 3-1 before handling visiting Mt Union. Rochester, along with Calvin and Messiah, is one of my teams of the week. Speaking of Cortland, Swarthmore paid the price for Cortland's setback, getting run off their own pitch 4-0. The Red Dragons sit at 2-1 after also smoking Widener. It's too early to say much about Oneonta with only a win over Alfred on the ledger. Excitement is brewing in Canton, NY near the Canadian border as very proud SLU tries to muscle its way back on to the main stage. A 1-0-1 record out of the gate is just enough to keep hope alive. Buffalo St also is 1-0-1, including a draw with SLU, as is the very artistic Skidmore following a tie with WPI and win over UMass-Boston. Vassar and Ithaca have limped to 1-1 and 0-1-1 records. RPI had what seemed like a promising away draw with Montclair St only to falter at home with a loss to UMass-Boston. Hyped RIT settled for a pair of draws...to Brockport St and Marietta.
Region IV
And now the highly acclaimed miniseries that is Region IV. The Kean Cougars, defending NJAC tourney champs, are on fire, skewering Centenary and Brooklyn. Kean is not to be overlooked as they search for the time machine to take them back to national title glory days. Just a handful of tickets still available for the 9/7 date with F&M. Misericordia also is 2-0 after dispatching Susquehanna and Ramapo. Watch out for Manhattanville, Skyline fave, who drew with Stevens before an obligatory thrashing of Medgar Evers. Stockton is 2-1 after sandwiching wins over Ursinus and Ithaca with a loss to Roanoke. The big story in Region IV is the seemingly disinterested effort by D1-laden Montclair St ...a tie with RPI, slim win over Oswego St, and a draw with Catholic. Chief Montclair rival, Rowan, has been active, losing a tight one at Hopkins and gaining a win and draw in San Antonio versus Southwestern and Trinity. The Trinity game may have been the game of the season thus far, a thrilling affair that concluded 3-3. Other notables are NYU, Stevens, and Lycoming at 1-0-1, and Rutgers-Newark at 1-1. Eastern slipped to 0-2.
Region V
Messiah is still King. Get into the water (or rather air) with the Falcons at your own risk. The Lynchburg match big picture is meaningless. The victory over W&L was not meaningless...and it was comprehensive. Check back in a couple of months when Messiah is something like 17-0-1 heading into the NCAA tourney and the biggest worry will be whether the men or women get to play at Shoemaker. Hopkins got a major win at home versus a very good Rowan team but then settled for a tie with pesky Lycoming. Perennial front-runner F&M beat Leb Valley but spit the bit against Stevens in a shellacking. Drew is 3-0 with the best win against New Paltz St. Gettysburg and York are out to 2-0 starts, and Catholic is 1-0-1 after the draw with Montclair. Swarthmore clamored for attention with two early wins before hosting a ticked off Cortland, recoiling to 2-1. Elizabethtown rebounded from a loss to York with two victories over so-so opponents. As for last year's new star, Washington College, nothing much to report other than a less than impressive tie with downtrodden Salisbury.
Week 1 (continued)
Region VI
Spoiler alert. The story here is gonna be W&L, Christopher Newport, and maybe Emory. Lynchburg should have a good season and provide important competition to W&L for at least a couple of games, but I don't see the Hornets being more than a round of 32 or maybe Sweet 16 squad. In hindsight, we should have known the Messiah match for W&L was a bit of a set-up...keeping the Falcons from last year's Final Four and then they see one another on opening day. The Generals likely still had a hangover at Maryville but feasted today against another inferior opponent. All eyes will be on the CNU game in October. Mary Washington could be in the mix and opened up 2-0 (before dropping a close one to Hopkins today). Virginia Wesleyan has trotted to a 2-0 campaign, Covenant is 1-0-1 after a draw with Emory and win over Oglethorpe. Roanoke also is 1-0-1. Centre is a paltry 0-2 while Salisbury slumped to 0-2-1.
Region VII
I covered this one elsewhere.
Region VIII
Four words....Calvin, Chicago, North Park. All three major national title contenders. We'll see about Wash U as we move along. And we'll keep tabs on North Central and Carthage.
Kalamazoo has had a rough go thus far but often is a sleeper, and then there are Hope and Wheaton (Ill).
Region IX
I'm still expecting a lot from St Olaf despite dropping an away match to Wartburg. Speaking of Wartburg, the Knights are 1-0-1 after a draw with always solid GAC and the win over St. Olaf. D3 is better when at least one or two of the Iowa teams are good. Loras doesn't quite look like the Loras of the late 2000s and early 2010s, but 2-0 is 2-0 and the win over OWU could be prominent at tourney selection time. GAC is 2-0-1, as are Dubuque and Luther. The Johnnies of St John's are 1-0-1 after a successful trip out West with a tie versus Cal Lutheran and win over UC Santa Cruz.
Region X
I like this Trinity (TX) team...a lot...although I hope they don't rely on winning shootouts every time they have a strong opponent. The Rowan game was my first time playing close attention to Meese...he looks like a Special Ops Navy Seal. Redlands left Michigan with probably a little less than they deserved at 0-1-1. They led Calvin three times and allowed Hope to level with under 30 secs left. The experience should still do the Bulldogs good. I'm expecting another Texas outfit to distinguish itself...like St Thomas (TX), Concordia (TX), and/or Texas-Dallas. And on the West Coast hopefully C-M-S can get their feet under them, and look out for Pac Lutheran, Cal Lutheran, Willamette, and Puget Sound. Colorado College has disappointed at 0-2-1.
Nice update, PN!
I watched about 25 minutes of the 1st half of North Park @ St. Norbert. Actually was very impressed with St. Norbert and how they moved the ball around. For the stretch I watched they were playing mostly in NPU's final third, got good chance after good chance, and should have scored a couple. When they couldn't get one in the net I said to myself "they're gonna end up losing this one 4-0." Which they did. My main point here, though, is that I was super impressed with NPU soph GK, Alfred Sward. Listed at 5'10 St Norbert just could not get anything past him. Very athletic with outstanding anticipation.
I was reminded of Calvin GK star circa 2015, Niko Giantsopoulos. Speaking of guys who could have played played some D1....
https://canpl.ca/article/an-experience-ill-never-forget-yorks-niko-giantsopoulos-reflects-on-whirlwind-weekend
https://calvin.prestosports.com/sports/msoc/2021-22/releases/20220521fsu2o0
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2022, 02:34:46 PM
I watched about 25 minutes of the 1st half of North Park @ St. Norbert. Actually was very impressed with St. Norbert and how they moved the ball around. For the stretch I watched they were playing mostly in NPU's final third, got good chance after good chance, and should have scored a couple. When they couldn't get one in the net I said to myself "they're gonna end up losing this one 4-0." Which they did. My main point here, though, is that I was super impressed with NPU soph GK, Alfred Sward. Listed at 5'10 St Norbert just could not get anything past him. Very athletic with outstanding anticipation.
Alfie has definitely improved from last season. Nothing like a full season in the net to sharpen the iron of a freshman GK, especially against the schedule that North Park played up to and including the Elite Eight contest at Chicago. But he's apparently worked just as hard in the off-season to maintain his upward trajectory.
You missed some pretty goals after you turned off the game in De Pere last night. NPU woke up from its slumber in the second half, and the Vikings kept the ball at their feet for nearly the entire 45 minutes, with three of the four goals the result of sustained pressure in which the ball barely got back at all to North Park's defensive half of the pitch for several minutes prior to the goal. (The fourth was set up by a terrific goal kick from Alfie Swärd.)
St. Norbert is not spectacular, but it's a team of smart grinder types. The Green Knights forged a tie with Luther last week, and they are picked to finish second in the NACC behind perennial stalwart Dominican. I see the Green Knights ending the regular season about 12-6-1 or so, which means last night should prove to be a useful win for NPU for strength of schedule purposes.
Does anyone have any intel on why Averett would be playing Davidson today? Might make a little more sense as a preseason scrimmage or exhibition. And while certainly very drivable it's not like they are really close to one another.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Does anyone have any intel on why Averett would be playing Davidson today? Might make a little more sense as a preseason scrimmage or exhibition. And while certainly very drivable it's not like they are really close to one another.
Maybe Davidson wanted to add an "easier" team to its schedule and Averett had open dates because of the conference transition? Davidson is using the game as its Senior Night.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 09, 2022, 03:35:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Does anyone have any intel on why Averett would be playing Davidson today? Might make a little more sense as a preseason scrimmage or exhibition. And while certainly very drivable it's not like they are really close to one another.
Maybe Davidson wanted to add an "easier" team to its schedule and Averett had open dates because of the conference transition? Davidson is using the game as its Senior Night.
I guess. I'm not sure what beating Averett 10-0 does for Davidson...unless just an opportunity to play everyone who usually doesn't play. Still, there would be better choices. W&L for instance would be far more interesting on multiple levels.
And you can watch Averett @ Davidson on ESPN+!!!!
Massive weekend of D3 soccer starting tonight.
St Olaf @ North Park is the main attraction tonight, followed by Carthage @ Messiah. Also got my eye on OWU with Hope tonight and Calvin tomorrow night. Out West I'm curious about Concordia (TX) @ Texas Lutheran, Cal Lutheran @ Pac Lutheran, and C-M-S @ Willamette.
Tomorrow of course brings us the huge two NESCAC battles, but also a slew of other great ones...the aforementioned Calvin @ OWU, Cortland @ Hopkins, Montclair @ Redlands, SLU @ Oneonta. Some other really outstanding and potentially key games include New Paltz @ NYU, Otterbein @ CWRU, Mary Wash @ Emory, CMU @ JCU, F&M @ Etown, RPI @ Plattsburgh, Vassar @ Stevens, Rowan @ Skidmore (and Rowan really needs a win as their schedule gauntlet continues), Wheaton (Ill) @ Dominican, Babson @ Brandeis, Colby @ Wesleyan, Lycoming @ Haverford, Norwich @ St Joe's, WPI @ Endicott, North Central @ Rose Hulman, Bowdoin @ Bates, Whitman @ Rutgers-Camden, Whitworth @ Covenant, KZoo @ Wilmington, and Gettysburg @ Catholic.
And then Sunday yields St Olaf @ Chicago, Emory @ Hopkins, Williams @ Babson, Rowan @ Lycoming, Trinity (TX) @ Texas-Dallas, Kenyon @ Centre, Skidmore @ Haverford, Mary Wash @ Cortland, Rutgers-Newark @ St Mary's, Loras @ GAC, Macalester @ Luther, St John's @ UWW, Whitworth @ Oglethorpe, Hobart @ Oneonta, C-M-S @ Pac Lutheran.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2022, 04:48:22 PM
Massive weekend of D3 soccer starting tonight.
St Olaf @ North Park is the main attraction tonight, followed by Carthage @ Messiah. Also got my eye on OWU with Hope tonight and Calvin tomorrow night. Out West I'm curious about Concordia (TX) @ Texas Lutheran, Cal Lutheran @ Pac Lutheran, and C-M-S @ Willamette.
Tomorrow of course brings us the huge two NESCAC battles, but also a slew of other great ones...the aforementioned Calvin @ OWU, Cortland @ Hopkins, Montclair @ Redlands, SLU @ Oneonta. Some other really outstanding and potentially key games include New Paltz @ NYU, Otterbein @ CWRU, Mary Wash @ Emory, CMU @ JCU, F&M @ Etown, RPI @ Plattsburgh, Vassar @ Stevens, Rowan @ Skidmore (and Rowan really needs a win as their schedule gauntlet continues), Wheaton (Ill) @ Dominican, Babson @ Brandeis, Colby @ Wesleyan, Lycoming @ Haverford, Norwich @ St Joe's, WPI @ Endicott, North Central @ Rose Hulman, Bowdoin @ Bates, Whitman @ Rutgers-Camden, Whitworth @ Covenant, KZoo @ Wilmington, and Gettysburg @ Catholic.
And then Sunday yields St Olaf @ Chicago, Emory @ Hopkins, Williams @ Babson, Rowan @ Lycoming, Trinity (TX) @ Texas-Dallas, Kenyon @ Centre, Skidmore @ Haverford, Mary Wash @ Cortland, Rutgers-Newark @ St Mary's, Loras @ GAC, Macalester @ Luther, St John's @ UWW, Whitworth @ Oglethorpe, Hobart @ Oneonta, C-M-S @ Pac Lutheran.
Speaking of Montclair State, they only beat La Verne 1-0 last night. La Verne was 3-13-1 last year and 1-11 in conference. It's 0-3-1 thus far this year and has only scored 1 goal in 4 games. Maybe Montclair State was still suffering from jet lag, but they're going to really have to step things up against Redlands, which will be eager to get things back on track after a Michigan trip where they lost 4-3 to Calvin and tied Hope 1-1.
North Park 4
St. Olaf 2
It was a highly entertaining night of high-speed, end-to-end soccer at Hedstrand Field. The Oles took a quick lead just 61 seconds into the contest on an insanely skillful steal off of an NPU defender's foot by Hakeen Morgan, who thereupon immediately rocketed a 30-yard strike past NPU keeper Alfie Swärd. But the Vikings refused to be put on the back foot by that, as their constant pressure produced three first-half goals, including an Isak Flo re-direct sandwiched by a brace of William DeCarro PK strikes. The Oles almost grabbed one back just before halftime, but Swärd made a pair of outstanding saves to thwart the Minnesotans' threat.
In the second half, the Oles again came out roaring. About a minute and a half into the second stanza, Clemente Archuch Puig worked his way into the box and got off a twisting volley that beat Swärd and made it a one-goal game again. That's where it stood for almost the entire second half, with the Oles getting a multitude of rushes that included a well-struck ball that glanced off of the crossbar and two or three good shots that were barely off-frame. But the NPU defense stood stout, and as the game entered its final minute the Vikings managed to get the ball into the St. Olaf end and pinned it against the sideline. Vikings wing Love Brandt somehow snuck out of the scrum with the ball at his feet and served it to the edge of the box, where Toby Lunde managed to push it to his left with two Oles on him in order to give Noel Holm a chance -- and Holm put it home in the left side of the goal to seal the deal.
St. Olaf is for real. Let's not forget that Travis Wall's side returned ten starters from a Sweet Sixteen team. They're pretty talented: Morgan, Archuch Puig, and Victor Gaulmin are each All-Region caliber, if not All-American. And their recklessly fast style of play is just plain hard to defend; the Oles do everything with alacrity. They never dilly-dally with a free kick or a throw-in; the ball goes back into play immediately, and when the St. Olaf back line gets the ball, the forwards and midfielders sprint upfield each time like their hair is on fire. It's fun to watch, and a headache if you're an opposing coach. Their upset loss to Wartburg last week notwithstanding, I expect the Oles to make some noise and be a part of the proceedings in November again. Who knows? There might be a Vikings vs. Oles rematch.
For a team that lost two All-Americans, plus a pair of All-CCIW freshmen who transferred out to the scholarship levels, the Vikings look pretty formidable. St. Olaf was a big step up in class from the first three NPU opponents, and the Vikings still managed to come off of the pitch with a hard-fought win in their home opener. Kris Grahn has definitely reloaded his team.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 06, 2022, 07:21:28 PM
Week 1 (continued)
Region VI
Spoiler alert. The story here is gonna be W&L, Christopher Newport, and maybe Emory. Lynchburg should have a good season and provide important competition to W&L for at least a couple of games, but I don't see the Hornets being more than a round of 32 or maybe Sweet 16 squad. In hindsight, we should have known the Messiah match for W&L was a bit of a set-up...keeping the Falcons from last year's Final Four and then they see one another on opening day. The Generals likely still had a hangover at Maryville but feasted today against another inferior opponent. All eyes will be on the CNU game in October. Mary Washington could be in the mix and opened up 2-0 (before dropping a close one to Hopkins today). Virginia Wesleyan has trotted to a 2-0 campaign, Covenant is 1-0-1 after a draw with Emory and win over Oglethorpe. Roanoke also is 1-0-1. Centre is a paltry 0-2 while Salisbury slumped to 0-2-1.
Region VII
I covered this one elsewhere.
Region VIII
Four words....Calvin, Chicago, North Park. All three major national title contenders. We'll see about Wash U as we move along. And we'll keep tabs on North Central and Carthage.
Kalamazoo has had a rough go thus far but often is a sleeper, and then there are Hope and Wheaton (Ill).
Region IX
I'm still expecting a lot from St Olaf despite dropping an away match to Wartburg. Speaking of Wartburg, the Knights are 1-0-1 after a draw with always solid GAC and the win over St. Olaf. D3 is better when at least one or two of the Iowa teams are good. Loras doesn't quite look like the Loras of the late 2000s and early 2010s, but 2-0 is 2-0 and the win over OWU could be prominent at tourney selection time. GAC is 2-0-1, as are Dubuque and Luther. The Johnnies of St John's are 1-0-1 after a successful trip out West with a tie versus Cal Lutheran and win over UC Santa Cruz.
Region X
I like this Trinity (TX) team...a lot...although I hope they don't rely on winning shootouts every time they have a strong opponent. The Rowan game was my first time playing close attention to Meese...he looks like a Special Ops Navy Seal. Redlands left Michigan with probably a little less than they deserved at 0-1-1. They led Calvin three times and allowed Hope to level with under 30 secs left. The experience should still do the Bulldogs good. I'm expecting another Texas outfit to distinguish itself...like St Thomas (TX), Concordia (TX), and/or Texas-Dallas. And on the West Coast hopefully C-M-S can get their feet under them, and look out for Pac Lutheran, Cal Lutheran, Willamette, and Puget Sound. Colorado College has disappointed at 0-2-1.
Great update for the start of the season. A team I look forward to keeping tabs on this season as well is NYU. 12 goals for and 0 against so far this season with their one tie being a 0-0 draw.
Paul Newman...live from Bello Field. Recap later.
Clarkson with the upset over CNU 1-0. Saw the game in person. Field heavily tilted in CNU's favor nearly the entire game. Clarkson pounced on a defensive miscue. Clarkson keeper and defense withstood tons of pressure. CNU 21 shots to 6. Hit the post and a major shout for a penalty not given. But credit to Clarkson's defense for keeping the ball out of the net.
Just catching up with some of the upsets. I tuned in to the final 3 minutes of a 0-0 CMU vs JCU game at JCU and CMU stunned the Blue Streaks on a goal on a loos ball in the box with literally 8 seconds left. Gut punch for JCU who now will be desperate for some regionally ranked wins.
Good number of upsets and also some other results not necessarily upsets but somewhat surprising nonetheless.
Kean was knocked off by Scranton 1-0.
WPI continues to show well with 3-1 win over Endicott.
Hopkins gets huge win smothering Cortland 2-0.
Rowan gets by Skidmore for a much needed win 1-0.
New Paltz St nipped NYU 2-1.
RIT lost again, this time to Geneseo St 2-1.
St Joe's got a big conference win coming from against Norwich 2-1.
Brandeis bested Babson 2-1.
CWRU surprised Otterbein 2-1.
Wesleyan won a wild one at home versus Colby 4-3.
Bowdoin won a Maine derby with Bates 2-1 in come from behind fashion.
Lycoming gets a good win over Haverford 1-0.
Mary Washington drubbed disappointing Emory 4-1.
Oneonta outlasted SLU 3-2.
Now we turn to Delaware, OH and Redlands, CA.
Addendum: Not sure how I left out Clarkson's big upset of Christopher Newport 1-0.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2022, 04:09:15 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on September 09, 2022, 03:35:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2022, 02:19:08 PM
Does anyone have any intel on why Averett would be playing Davidson today? Might make a little more sense as a preseason scrimmage or exhibition. And while certainly very drivable it's not like they are really close to one another.
Maybe Davidson wanted to add an "easier" team to its schedule and Averett had open dates because of the conference transition? Davidson is using the game as its Senior Night.
I guess. I'm not sure what beating Averett 10-0 does for Davidson...unless just an opportunity to play everyone who usually doesn't play. Still, there would be better choices. W&L for instance would be far more interesting on multiple levels.
For those who weren't following this game Friday night, D1 Davidson did beat D3 Averett, but the score was only 3-0. It's curious, since although Davidson did give some freshman their first minutes, started some of the seniors (it was Senior Night), and played a junior GK the last 23 minutes for the first action of his career, they didn't exactly use this as a complete reserve game. The core of the starters were pretty similar to the previous game against Georgia State. Not sure why Davidson played Averett, but considering this was Davidson's first win of the season, maybe they knew it was going to be a rough year and wanted an early morale booster.
Connecticut College @ Tufts (battle of last two national champs and re-match of last year's Elite 8 classic)
Pretty much agree with all of SimpleCoach's impressions. I guess the game was mildly disappointing and although a sizeable crowd eventually showed up there was not a ton of intensity in the crowd for either side. Maybe that had a little to do with the game not meaning a whole lot in early September. The teams I'm sure don't like each other much and there certainly was some chirping and rough challenges but not at a Tufts vs Amherst level. Too bad these two huge NESCAC games didn't happen in another couple of weeks.
Conn started out fairly sharp and dominated the first 10-15 minutes. Tufts then controlled most of the next 20-25 minutes and thereafter pretty even stuff. Both teams teams had maybe two really good chances, and each could have won 1-0. Tufts #9 should have scored after a Conn error and being 1 v 1 in close vs Maidenberg but didn't convert. Lauta was forced to make a good save on a shot headed for top right corner and he appeared to top another good half-chance over the bar but a corner was not awarded.
The game was not pretty at all but certainly very competitive. Every ball was challenged with a lot contested headers back and forth. Conn was missing their star soph CB who apparently didn't play in first game either so don't know if that is a long-term thing or not, but otherwise Conn had a good portion of last year's team. Tufts on the other hand one would think has more of an adjustment period with new faces taking on new or bigger roles. From that perspective, Tufts should grow into the season and they already can play with anyone. Not sure why Shin #8 for Tufts doesn't play more as he is one of their most creative, offensive, and slippery players.
I thought Daly #3 for Tufts and Jaran #8 for Conn were the two best players on the field today. Daly is indefatigable and veyr similar in style to Muther for Kenyon...both right backs who provide a lot of offense. Daly played the full 90 and a couple of times almost got burned on the defensive end but he's tough and super-competitive. Djerdjaj was quiet for the most part. A key factor in the match was Jaran going out with cramps with 25+ minutes left. He had played all or almost all of the 1st half and he is super talented and dangerous on free kicks so his absence for the final 25 minutes was big. Yeonas #25 for Conn had a good game and he started having a bigger impact after Jaran left the game. He had gorgeous flick pass in the final third that led to a chance and he almost got loose a couple of times in the box but couldn't get a clean look without the shots getting blocked. Conn's CB #5 I thought had a very solid game as well. Conn also has a frosh forward from Seattle area who I think is going to be good, as is #9 for Tufts once he gets some momentum going.
All in all, a fair result and these teams could see each other at least once and maybe twice down the road. The heat also may have played a role. I was surprised they didn't have a water break each half.
I have little doubt that Conn, Tufts, Amherst, and Midd are four of the top 10 teams in the country with Midd maybe having the most to prove in terms of offensive firepower.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 10, 2022, 07:40:03 PM
For those who weren't following this game Friday night, D1 Davidson did beat D3 Averett, but the score was only 3-0. It's curious, since although Davidson did give some freshman their first minutes, started some of the seniors (it was Senior Night), and played a junior GK the last 23 minutes for the first action of his career, they didn't exactly use this as a complete reserve game. The core of the starters were pretty similar to the previous game against Georgia State. Not sure why Davidson played Averett, but considering this was Davidson's first win of the season, maybe they knew it was going to be a rough year and wanted an early morale booster.
Interestingly, the Davidson women are playing tonight against NCCAA side Carolina University. The game presents as a normal game on the Davidson schedule, except that it is the only home game of the year that isn't live-streamed, but on the Carolina University site, it's listed as an exhibition. Must be something in the water at Davidson this weekend.
Conn was missing their star soph CB who apparently didn't play in first game either so don't know if that is a long-term thing or not, but otherwise Conn had a good portion of last year's team.
Someone from Conn told me he was out with a sprain ankle but should be ready for the next game.
Milwaukee School of Engineering....that's the tweet.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 11, 2022, 07:48:31 PM
Milwaukee School of Engineering....that's the tweet.
Undefeated and just beat a decent U of Dubuque team. Feel like I need a hat or something.
Saw Hopkins play Cortland State on Saturday (2-0 Hopkins) and Emory on Sunday (0-0 tie). Hopkins dominated possession and controlled both games. The Sunday game took place in the pouring rain; the field conditions definitely affected play.
My impressions:
Hopkins' defense is very strong - they didn't allow a goal all weekend. Tim Treinen, their fifth year senior CB, controls the game and their outside backs generate a lot of the offense by taking the ball up the wings. Cortland gave the Hopkins centerbacks way too much space, which allowed them to drive forward and disrupt the CSU spacing. Emory was more disciplined and compact. The wet field also meant that playing the ball up the wings was tough. The grad student transfer GK, Alex Morgret, has been terrific. He made several excellent saves against Cortland and wasn't really tested against Emory.
Hopkins has real trouble scoring goals though. The team, as a whole, tends to be very conservative. They always take the safe back pass instead of the slightly more risky forward pass. They also look for the perfect shot from six yards instead of decent but not guaranteed shots from 18. They also need some left-footed players on the left side. Despite totally dominating the game vs. Emory, they generated very few dangerous chances. The 6'4" Emory GK made a terrific save on a header off of a corner to save a goal but that was the only shot that really tested him.
Overall, it is a Hopkins team much like those of past years - small, highly skilled and very patient (too much so?). They should make the tournament but don't really have the firepower to go deep in it.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on September 11, 2022, 09:26:29 PM
Saw Hopkins play Cortland State on Saturday (2-0 Hopkins) and Emory on Sunday (0-0 tie). Hopkins dominated possession and controlled both games. The Sunday game took place in the pouring rain; the field conditions definitely affected play.
My impressions:
Hopkins' defense is very strong - they didn't allow a goal all weekend. Tim Treinen, their fifth year senior CB, controls the game and their outside backs generate a lot of the offense by taking the ball up the wings. Cortland gave the Hopkins centerbacks way too much space, which allowed them to drive forward and disrupt the CSU spacing. Emory was more disciplined and compact. The wet field also meant that playing the ball up the wings was tough. The grad student transfer GK, Alex Morgret, has been terrific. He made several excellent saves against Cortland and wasn't really tested against Emory.
Hopkins has real trouble scoring goals though. The team, as a whole, tends to be very conservative. They always take the safe back pass instead of the slightly more risky forward pass. They also look for the perfect shot from six yards instead of decent but not guaranteed shots from 18. They also need some left-footed players on the left side. Despite totally dominating the game vs. Emory, they generated very few dangerous chances. The 6'4" Emory GK made a terrific save on a header off of a corner to save a goal but that was the only shot that really tested him.
Overall, it is a Hopkins team much like those of past years - small, highly skilled and very patient (too much so?). They should make the tournament but don't really have the firepower to go deep in it.
I tried to watch the Emory game, but the weather was just making it a mess. Have to ask, how is it that Hopkins has drainage issues on that field? That was the last thing I was expecting to see.
SC.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on September 11, 2022, 09:26:29 PM
Saw Hopkins play Cortland State on Saturday (2-0 Hopkins) and Emory on Sunday (0-0 tie). Hopkins dominated possession and controlled both games. The Sunday game took place in the pouring rain; the field conditions definitely affected play.
My impressions:
Hopkins' defense is very strong - they didn't allow a goal all weekend. Tim Treinen, their fifth year senior CB, controls the game and their outside backs generate a lot of the offense by taking the ball up the wings. Cortland gave the Hopkins centerbacks way too much space, which allowed them to drive forward and disrupt the CSU spacing. Emory was more disciplined and compact. The wet field also meant that playing the ball up the wings was tough. The grad student transfer GK, Alex Morgret, has been terrific. He made several excellent saves against Cortland and wasn't really tested against Emory.
Hopkins has real trouble scoring goals though. The team, as a whole, tends to be very conservative. They always take the safe back pass instead of the slightly more risky forward pass. They also look for the perfect shot from six yards instead of decent but not guaranteed shots from 18. They also need some left-footed players on the left side. Despite totally dominating the game vs. Emory, they generated very few dangerous chances. The 6'4" Emory GK made a terrific save on a header off of a corner to save a goal but that was the only shot that really tested him.
Overall, it is a Hopkins team much like those of past years - small, highly skilled and very patient (too much so?). They should make the tournament but don't really have the firepower to go deep in it.
Nice write-up and a very good overall categorization of this program. Over the years, when they've had top notch finisher, they are an incredibly difficult out. When they are consituted as they are now (as you describe) they are capable of pulling of draws against better competition, but that's about it.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 11, 2022, 09:39:39 PM
I tried to watch the Emory game, but the weather was just making it a mess. Have to ask, how is it that Hopkins has drainage issues on that field? That was the last thing I was expecting to see.
SC.
I was surprised at the state of the field too. It has improved substantially in the millennia since I played so I thought it wouldn't be a problem. There are no drainage grates bordering the field though so the water was pooling on the sidelines. It also was raining like crazy before the game and during the first half. It slacked off in the second half and the field conditions improved. I didn't stick around for the second game (Cortland v. Mary Washington) but saw some of the stream and it seemed like the field had dried out some.
Quote from: Hopkins Walk-On on September 12, 2022, 07:54:32 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 11, 2022, 09:39:39 PM
I tried to watch the Emory game, but the weather was just making it a mess. Have to ask, how is it that Hopkins has drainage issues on that field? That was the last thing I was expecting to see.
SC.
I was surprised at the state of the field too. It has improved substantially in the millennia since I played so I thought it wouldn't be a problem. There are no drainage grates bordering the field though so the water was pooling on the sidelines. It also was raining like crazy before the game and during the first half. It slacked off in the second half and the field conditions improved. I didn't stick around for the second game (Cortland v. Mary Washington) but saw some of the stream and it seemed like the field had dried out some.
Yeah, having 2 D1 sports play on that field, not to mention a VERY good football program (my how times have changed)... They've put a lot of money into that field. I think it really comes down to something like 2 inches of rain falling over a relatively short period of time.
Best Midweek Matchups (Tues and Weds)
Today/Tonight
4:00 -- Norwich @ Midd (sneaky trap game rescheduled to tomorrow night with venue change from Midd to Norwich...and which despite becoming an away match under the lights should benefit Midd by the Panthers getting an extra day to recover from Amherst match...but this is the kind of game that has tripped Midd up in some past years)
7:00 -- Stevens @ NYU (Stevens looks to continue an impressive start while NYU tries find some footing)
7:00 -- Denison @ Capital (Capital is a tough place to play and Denison will have to be on their game to get a win)
7:00 -- Rochester @ RIT (the Flower City derby...UR looks to pile on RIT's deflating high expectations)
7:00 -- Scranton @ Misericordia (Scranton heads down I-81 before a northwesterly turn up PA Rte 309 for total of 26.6 miles to Dallas, PA)
7:30 -- Tufts @ Wesleyan (very intriguing tilt under the light on turf with Wesleyan fired up to put a dent in the NESCAC Big Four while the Jumbos are fed up with hearing so much about Conn, Amherst, and Midd)
8:00 -- Texas Lutheran @ Concordia (TX) (These two Texas programs fighting for respect just played like a week ago with Concordia winning 1-0)
8:00 -- UW-Superior @ UW-Eau Claire (Probably not a very good game but time to the Blugolds of Eau Claire on the proverbial radar after skipping to a 5-0 record early....I didn't even know Eau Claire had a D3 program)
Tomorrow (Weds)
4:00 -- Vassar @ New Paltz St (another Liberty vs SUNYAC face-off with both seeking to gain more Region III cred)
5:00 -- Hope @ Chicago
6:00 -- Wash U @ North Park (Big game for Wash U but after limited game action as two out of four scheduled games postponed the Bears could struggle against in-form North Park...and what the heck is going on with the Wash U website still showing 2021 schedule with no 2022?)
7:00 -- Lebanon Valley @ Gettysburg
7:00 -- SLU @ Potsdam St (the Saints need to string some Ws together)
7:00 -- St Mary's @ York (PA)
7:00 -- Manhattanville @ Amherst (the Valiants strong start may run into a "mammoth" hiccup)
7:00 -- Rowan @ Cortland St (two national faves with uneven starts but have played two of the toughest schedules to date and should not be underestimated...big game for both)
7:00 -- Moravian @ Montclair St (upset alert?)
7:00 -- Hanover @ Otterbein (significant Great Lakes battle and could end up being a ranked win for the victor)
7:00 -- PS-Harrisburg @ F&M (PS-Harrisburg is the Appalachian St of D3 soccer while F&M needs to exude some quality)
7:30 -- Rose Hulman @ DePauw (another Great Lakes clash where RHIT has played strong foes and DePauw has not)
7:30 -- Dickinson @ Messiah (this could get ugly but great opportunity for the Red Devils)
7:30 -- John Carroll @ CWRU (cross-town derby with both hungry for a timely win)
7:30 -- Kenyon @ Wilmington (Wilmington hopes to regain last year's form while the Owls seek another victory over an OAC outfit)
7:30 -- OWU @ Ohio Northern (Dr. Martin has got to be beside himself as he really likes his squad but the Battling Bishops are sitting at 0-2-2 and suddenly ONU looks like a must-win type of game)
8:30 -- Luther @ UWW
10:00 -- C-M-S @ Redlands (two Region X heavyweights who have played very tough schedules and wins so far scarce...C-M-S in particular is hanging by a thread)
These are seriously awesome write ups PaulNewman.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2022, 07:18:13 PM
8:00 -- UW-Superior @ UW-Eau Claire (Probably not a very good game but time to the Blugolds of Eau Claire on the proverbial radar after skipping to a 5-0 record early....I didn't even know Eau Claire had a D3 program)
They didn't, until a year ago. UWEC has come pretty far for a program that's only one year old.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2022, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2022, 07:18:13 PM
8:00 -- UW-Superior @ UW-Eau Claire (Probably not a very good game but time to the Blugolds of Eau Claire on the proverbial radar after skipping to a 5-0 record early....I didn't even know Eau Claire had a D3 program)
They didn't, until a year ago. UWEC has come pretty far for a program that's only one year old.
Are they NCAA tourney eligible?
Speaking of which, I was thinking about all the UW schools and guessing you'd be about the only person here who could break it down. Which ones have D3 programs that are tournament eligible and which don't....Platteville, Eau Claire, Superior, Whitewater, etc.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2022, 10:38:58 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2022, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2022, 07:18:13 PM
8:00 -- UW-Superior @ UW-Eau Claire (Probably not a very good game but time to the Blugolds of Eau Claire on the proverbial radar after skipping to a 5-0 record early....I didn't even know Eau Claire had a D3 program)
They didn't, until a year ago. UWEC has come pretty far for a program that's only one year old.
Are they NCAA tourney eligible?
I don't see why they wouldn't be. UWEC has been a D3 member for decades. If a school is a full member of D3, it can add a sport and immediately be eligible for the postseason in that sport. As an independent, the Blugolds would be eligible for a Pool B bid, as well as a (far less likely) Pool C bid.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2022, 10:38:58 PMSpeaking of which, I was thinking about all the UW schools and guessing you'd be about the only person here who could break it down. Which ones have D3 programs that are tournament eligible and which don't....Platteville, Eau Claire, Superior, Whitewater, etc.
They're all eligible -- UWEC as an indie under Pool B, UWW and UW-Platteville as C2C Conference members under Pool A, and UW-Superior as a UMAC member under Pool A. (UW-Superior won the UMAC's Pool A berth last season, in fact, falling in the first round to Wash U at North Park.) And all are eligible for Pool C berths as well.
The tragedy here is that UW-Oshkosh no longer has a men's soccer program. The Titans were a real force in this sport for quite a while; from 1991 to the axing of the program by the UWO administration in 2015 the Titans made the tourney 14 times, finishing with an all-time tournament record of 19-12-3. The Titans made it to the Final Four in 1994, 2000, 2003, and 2010. They bowed out in the semis each time (in 1994 via PKs).
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2022, 11:37:37 PM
(UW-Superior won the UMAC's Pool A berth last season, in fact, falling in the first round to Wash U at North Park.) And all are eligible for Pool C berths as well.
As a note, we have a big national perspective game today with Washington University playing again at North Park with an early 5:00 pm start time.
https://boxcast.tv/channel/dmfutowrtlmndztdlxrk
If you want to see why Falcon fans are really excited this year, come watch the game with Dickinson (who have legitimate scorers) that started 25 minutes ago. Already the Falcons have three really brilliant goals and just missed a fourth (on a terrific free kick off the post by defender Lent-Koop). As I said on another thread recently, Messiah has great team speed and many serious scoring options this year, more than in any recent season. The quality of their goals so far this year is off the charts. Come watch and see for yourselves.
Correction: not a national perspective game at North Park.
Wash U returned most of its players from what was a really good 2021 team. But the Bears lost Sergio Rivas and Nolan Wolf, two of their three best creators up top, from that team, and it shows. Joe Clarke just doesn't seem to have replaced their firepower ... although it may be too early to make a definitive statement about that, as this was only the third game of the year for the Bears.
By contrast, North Park has replaced 150-career-points-scorer grad student Peder Olsen (who ran out of eligibility) and All-CCIW first team freshman forward Jesse Anamoo (12-5-29 last season; he transferred to D1 Santa Clara, where he tallied his first goal of the season last Friday) in terms of offensive firepower. They've done so by committee; tonight it was freshman wing Love Brandt's turn to come off of the bench and chair the committee meeting, as he tallied a brace of goals and assisted on the other in a 3-0 Vikings victory. NPU now has tallied 17 goals in its first five games, so the Vikings' offense seems to have adjusted to the changing of the guard from 2021.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 14, 2022, 09:50:44 PM
Wash U returned most of its players from what was a really good 2021 team. But the Bears lost Sergio Rivas and Nolan Wolf, two of their three best creators up top, from that team, and it shows. Joe Clarke just doesn't seem to have replaced their firepower ... although it may be too early to make a definitive statement about that, as this was only the third game of the year for the Bears.
The Bears lost 5-6 guys that featured heavily in to the rotation including Yanase in the midfield as well as Shaw and Smith in the back. The team is very young overall so I expect them to improve over the course of the season. But they were completely outclassed tonight.
The birds have spoken (Falconer and bluejay)....Messiah and Chicago are headed towards a titanic, all-time classic national final.
The Messiah plea/plug was next, next level stuff.
In all seriousness, at the moment -- and notwithstanding that it is early to know where to place the NESCAC four horsemen -- Messiah, Chicago, and North Park have separated themselves from the rest of the top tier pack.
Another group -- Calvin (the least of this group but still the Knights have tied Aurora and nipped Millikin 2-1), Kenyon, W&L, Montclair, Christopher Newport, Cortland, etc -- has looked rather pedestrian at least compared to very lofty expectations....BUT...do not count them out.
There's the "minding our own business but we're good group," like Rochester, Pac Lutheran, Stevens, etc.
There's the surprise group (at least so far)....Dickinson, Drew, MSOE, Western CT, UW-Eau Claire, Clarkson, CMU, McDaniel, Hamilton, Baldwin Wallace, etc -- and among this group some will fall off and others may continue to surprise.
Then there's the "what in the heck is going on" group with Wash U, OWU, St Olaf, Wash Coll, Rowan, Trinity (TX), John Carroll, MIT, NYU, C-M-S, Redlands, etc....but don't be surprised if a handful in this cadre find a way to make the NCAA tourney and could be dangerous.
Addendum: Add Hopkins to the "minding our own business but we're good group."
This might seem a bit "off topic" but I'm wondering what the impact of the new OT rule will have on the season. And - from my lens I tend to agree with the poster who mentioned Chicago and Messiah as two titans...and all others in a different class. Maybe Amherst, maybe Conn being in the upper echelon but it seems like there's a lot more parity this year and fewer dominant teams. Really seems completely wide open through first 2-weeks of the season.
Agree there is a lot more parity than say last 3 years, don't think one will win this year without two or three defeats, that said I will add teams coming out of NESCAC will be well prepared.
Quote from: D3_Slack on September 15, 2022, 12:00:01 PM
This might seem a bit "off topic" but I'm wondering what the impact of the new OT rule will have on the season. And - from my lens I tend to agree with the poster who mentioned Chicago and Messiah as two titans...and all others in a different class. Maybe Amherst, maybe Conn being in the upper echelon but it seems like there's a lot more parity this year and fewer dominant teams. Really seems completely wide open through first 2-weeks of the season.
The OT rule has definitely factored into many games thus far and IMO hindered the competition. It's a silly rule that will only make the selection process more complex...as if it wasn't complex enough already ???
Don't the better teams find ways to win inside 90 minutes? I have a different attitude to draws (I was trying to think of a clever cultural reference to support this, but gave up) and believe it's part of the game, sometimes a team might have done really well to get that result. Do they deserve half the points? No, but rather than have OT, perhaps if it really does become a "problem", which I suspect it won't, then offer 4 points for a win and the see how teams play. I guess it comes down to what you want to get from these games. For previous tournament winners is there an asterisk next to their name that says, "won six games in overtime"?
I'm a somewhat recent player (graduated in 2018) and I, along with many of my former teammates, would hate this new overtime rule. And I imagine a large majority of current D3 players would've voted to keep overtime in the regular season, as well. More good moments come from those overtime games, and an extra 20 minutes at a maximum wouldn't really put any players in overload, especially with unlimited subs.
This new rule benefits D1 players more as they typically have more travel involved and less recovery time and a longer spring season.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:46 AM
The birds have spoken (Falconer and bluejay)....Messiah and Chicago are headed towards a titanic, all-time classic national final.
The Messiah plea/plug was next, next level stuff.
In all seriousness, at the moment -- and notwithstanding that it is early to know where to place the NESCAC four horsemen -- Messiah, Chicago, and North Park have separated themselves from the rest of the top tier pack.
Right now, I'd say North Park is the scarier side and frankly I have them favored against UChicago at the end of the month when they meet up. The Maroons are better than last year, but NPU still feels like they have an offensive gear that few other teams can reach. The Maroons kept Olsen off the scoreboard in both games last year, but not having him be the focus might be an advantage for NPU this time around. It all comes down to who possesses the ball better.
Quote from: blue_jays on September 15, 2022, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:46 AM
The birds have spoken (Falconer and bluejay)....Messiah and Chicago are headed towards a titanic, all-time classic national final.
The Messiah plea/plug was next, next level stuff.
In all seriousness, at the moment -- and notwithstanding that it is early to know where to place the NESCAC four horsemen -- Messiah, Chicago, and North Park have separated themselves from the rest of the top tier pack.
Right now, I'd say North Park is the scarier side and frankly I have them favored against UChicago at the end of the month when they meet up. The Maroons are better than last year, but NPU still feels like they had an offensive gear that few other teams can reach. The Maroons kept Olsen off the scoreboard in both games last year, but not having him be the focus might be an advantage for NPU this time around. It all comes down to who possesses the ball better.
Should be a good one...especially if both are still unblemished.
I am not a recent player but I think I prefer the change on OT. Teams favored to win and/or that need to win have to press to score that final 10 minutes of regulation. Otherwise, I'd prefer they play out two 10 minute OTs or one 15 minute OT without golden goal. Also think it's harsh for a very good team to be punished for 2-3 OT losses that could keep them out of postseason play.
To change the gestalt a little....if an inferior opponent plays an incredible game and can hold Messiah, Tufts, Chicago, Amherst, North Park, etc to a draw after 90 minutes I'd like to see them credited with the draw. After all, those superior teams had a full 90 to avoid a draw.
In the last two games, Trinity tied and lost on goals scored by their opponent in the last 19 seconds combined (an amazing mid-field free kick and throw-in header). Dumb fouls played a large role.
They need to get their heads on straight, but they are likely to still win the division and qualify for the tourney.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:46 AM
The birds have spoken (Falconer and bluejay)....Messiah and Chicago are headed towards a titanic, all-time classic national final.
The Messiah plea/plug was next, next level stuff.
In all seriousness, at the moment -- and notwithstanding that it is early to know where to place the NESCAC four horsemen -- Messiah, Chicago, and North Park have separated themselves from the rest of the top tier pack.
Another group -- Calvin (the least of this group but still the Knights have tied Aurora and nipped Millikin 2-1), Kenyon, W&L, Montclair, Christopher Newport, Cortland, etc -- has looked rather pedestrian at least compared to very lofty expectations....BUT...do not count them out.
There's the "minding our own business but we're good group," like Rochester, Pac Lutheran, Stevens, etc.
There's the surprise group (at least so far)....Dickinson, Drew, MSOE, Western CT, UW-Eau Claire, Clarkson, CMU, McDaniel, Hamilton, Baldwin Wallace, etc -- and among this group some will fall off and others may continue to surprise.
Then there's the "what in the heck is going on" group with Wash U, OWU, St Olaf, Wash Coll, Rowan, Trinity (TX), John Carroll, MIT, NYU, C-M-S, Redlands, etc....but don't be surprised if a handful in this cadre find a way to make the NCAA tourney and could be dangerous.
Addendum: Add Hopkins to the "minding our own business but we're good group."
Quote from: WUPHF on September 14, 2022, 11:43:54 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 14, 2022, 09:50:44 PM
Wash U returned most of its players from what was a really good 2021 team. But the Bears lost Sergio Rivas and Nolan Wolf, two of their three best creators up top, from that team, and it shows. Joe Clarke just doesn't seem to have replaced their firepower ... although it may be too early to make a definitive statement about that, as this was only the third game of the year for the Bears.
The Bears lost 5-6 guys that featured heavily in to the rotation including Yanase in the midfield as well as Shaw and Smith in the back.
You're right; I did forget about Alistair Shaw, who was a really solid defender. And Smith did start in Wash U's playoff games last season, although he wasn't a starter for much of the season. But the Bears backline still has Nicholson and Lamba, so it's in good hands. I don't think that the defense was WU's problem yesterday.
(I forgot about Nao Yanase for a good reason. He lost his starting job in mid-October last year, and didn't even get into the WU @ NPU second-round game.)
Quote from: WUPHF on September 14, 2022, 11:43:54 PMThe team is very young overall so I expect them to improve over the course of the season. But they were completely outclassed tonight.
I agree that the Bears will get better ... and, of course, I will certainly be rooting for them to do so. But I still think that Joe Clarke has to be worried about where his goals are going to come from. Owen Culver can't do it alone.
(I like the Ryan An kid's potential, though. Technically sound, with good wheels. He's a local product out of Stevenson HS up in the north suburbs. His classmate and fellow forward Adam Hamad got his first minutes for the North Park varsity yesterday, which makes me wonder if NPU recruited An as well -- or if any other CCIW school went after An.)
Injuries plagued the team in 2022 including Yanase, Panagos and more.
You really have to be high on the North Park offense to suggest that there were no issues with the defense. Between this and the Carthage game, the Bears have work to do.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:46 AMIn all seriousness, at the moment -- and notwithstanding that it is early to know where to place the NESCAC four horsemen -- Messiah, Chicago, and North Park have separated themselves from the rest of the top tier pack.
I'm not quite ready to buy a seat on the NPU "top tier pack" hype train yet.
It's not so much a matter of what I've seen; it's more what I
haven't seen. What I've seen is all positive thus far. I've said all along that this is a pretty potent crop of newbies that Kris Grahn has brought in this season, and it's allowing him to go deeper into his bench than he has in the past -- plus, his key returnees such as William de Carro, Angel Barriga, Toby Lunde, Christian Vaaland, Noel Holm, and Alfie Swärd have noticeably upped their games from last season. It's what I haven't seen that worries me. The attitude of the Vikings coaching staff is, "We know we have a good team ... but we're a little unsure as to how
comparatively good we are, because the power programs that we scheduled [St. Olaf, Wash U] for pre-conference play weren't up to their usual standards." I think they're right about that. Although I do expect St. Olaf and Wash U to get better as the season goes along (especially the Oles, who have really underperformed when you take into account what they returned from last season's Sweet Sixteen outfit), as of this moment I'm uncertain as to whether the Vikings have been conclusively tested yet.
That will no longer be an issue after the Vikings take the Dan Ryan Expressway down to 55th and Cottage Grove on September 28 for their date with the Maroons.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 10:05:46 AMAnother group -- Calvin (the least of this group but still the Knights have tied Aurora and nipped Millikin 2-1)
Sleep on the Knights at your peril. Pedestrian performances against Aurora and Millikin notwithstanding, that Calvin team is loaded to the gunwales with both talent and experience. I would not be shocked even one tiny bit if we see the Knights in Salem, VA the first weekend of December.
Quote from: WUPHF on September 15, 2022, 05:04:05 PM
Injuries plagued the team in 2022 including Yanase, Panagos and more.
You really have to be high on the North Park offense to suggest that there were no issues with the defense. Between this and the Carthage game, the Bears have work to do.
I think that the problem for the Bears yesterday had a lot more to do with possession than penetration. The Vikings were much more effective in the air game when Martin was kicking it upfield -- even when a Bear appeared to get a better head on a 50-50 it was usually a Viking getting to the second ball and settling it -- and Swärd rarely bothered kicking it deep, because what pressure the Bears offered was so ineffective that the Vikings GK was content to just let his team build from the back, or to get the ball 30-40 more yards upfield and then let Vaaland go direct by targeting Isak Flo up top. The Vikings controlled possession so solidly that they could basically sit in the forward third for long stretches, rock the ball from side to side, and pick the Bears apart. Even a good defense can't hold out against that forever, unless you send more guys back and pack it in. There were a number of times when a Viking would simply stop the ball, put his foot atop it, and survey the defense for a few moments before he decided where to go with it next. That's a sure sign of a team confident in its ability to possess at will.
I'm not ready to say how much of this was NPU -- as I just got done saying in the previous post, the Vikings are good, but I'm not 100% sure yet
how good -- and how much of this was just growing pains on the part of a Bears team that has yet to develop the ability to sustain attacks, much less convert them.
I think that Joe Clarke has bigger concerns than his back line.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 15, 2022, 05:34:11 PM
I think that Joe Clarke has bigger concerns than his back line.
And hence my suggestion that the Bears were outclassed rather than beat in the final third. But go look at that first goal and the second goal in the Carthage game and maybe you'll see why I mentioned players from the back line.
Greg, you don't need to buy a seat on the hype train (at least not yet). You can relax and enjoy the broadcasting and some of the rest of the us here will give the Vikings the respect they deserve (so far). They have stood out and I assume you are pleased that the two words 'North Park' are now among the first words being said when citing current faves (in contrast to some past years when some needed a nudge to pay more attention to your squad. We don't know how goood anyone is yet. But for now, based on results to date, NPU stands out.
As for Calvin, I specifically said do NOT count out any team in that group, and I clarified that Calvin has been the least pedestrian of those cited. The Knights are a strong contender to get to the Final 4 and win the whole thing, I agree. One of the things that is impressive is their poise/ability to scramble back into games. They can go down one or even two goals and I believe they hae full confidence they will somehow get the job done...like being down THREE times to Redlands and still winning, being down 1-0 at OWU at the half at OWU, etc, etc. Imo they just haven't clearly dominated like the other three mentioned.
Quote from: oacalum on September 15, 2022, 01:33:29 PM
I'm a somewhat recent player (graduated in 2018) and I, along with many of my former teammates, would hate this new overtime rule. And I imagine a large majority of current D3 players would've voted to keep overtime in the regular season, as well. More good moments come from those overtime games, and an extra 20 minutes at a maximum wouldn't really put any players in overload, especially with unlimited subs.
This new rule benefits D1 players more as they typically have more travel involved and less recovery time and a longer spring season.
I'm with you and Mid-Atlantic Fan on this. I hated to see overtime go. I'm all about upping the ante on the excitement.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2022, 06:03:44 PMI assume you are pleased that the two words 'North Park' are now among the first words being said when citing current faves (in contrast to some past years when some needed a nudge to pay more attention to your squad.
True dat. I do understand the D3 men's soccer pecking order, and I know as well that this sport's section of the boards is dominated by northeasterners who: a) are convinced of northeastern (especially NESCAC) dominance in this sport, and with good reason; and b) probably don't get to see the Vikings play all that often, perhaps in part because the games typically start later from the perspective of those on the East Coast. So I learned not to resent the Vikings not being included in national-power conversations on the boards. My concern now is maintaining that high standard so that NPU is now a standard part of those conversations, especially when the midwestern programs that
have earned the respect even of the northeasterners (Chicago, Calvin, Kenyon, Wash U, and OWU chief among them) get mentioned.
A Paul Newman Quick-hitter Game of the Night Special Feature
8:00 PM (EST?) -- Bethany Lutheran Vikings @ Wisconsin-Eau Claire Blugolds
Bethany Lutheran based in Mankato, MN rolls into Eau Claire for an upper Midwest clash. The Vikings sit at 2-0-2 with wins over Buena Vista and Hamline and draws with GAC and Dordt (Iowa)...the latter I presume is NAIA or D2. The GAC 1-1 draw looks notable as stats were fairly close. Bethany GK Mason Steffen made 4 saves between the pipes. The Vikings thus far have been led by supersub Antonio Lima with 4 points and Tomas Abreu and Liam Peterson with 3 each. The Vikings roster boasts an international cornacopia...5 from Portugal, 4 from Sweden, 3 from Italy, 3 from Norway, 2 each from Jamaica and the Netherlands, and one each from Brazil, Greece, Germany, Mexico, England, Canada, Spain...and Texas. Bethany plays on the gorgeous refurbished and newly renamed Scheels Field.
In 2019, then frosh Max Busch made 3rd team AA on the back of nation-leading goals and total points, helping the Vikings lead the nation in scoring average at 3.95 per contest. Max had another excellent season in 2021 but no longer is with the program, perhaps due to graduation and giving up a covid eligibility year. The man holding the clipboard for Bethany is Derick Lyngholm, now in his 4th season after 12 campaigns guiding the women's program. Derick was a stellar GK at Bethany from 1995-1996, leading the Vikings to a 14-3-1 record and a national ranking as high as #15. He transferred after two seasons to Bethel where he left a mark on the records books for a 32 save extravaganza versus defending national champ and then #1 ranked Wheaton (Ill). Bethany Lutheran has a enrollment around 650. The Vikings were 14-7 (14-2 conference) last year, preceded by 12-6-1 and 7-9-3 ledgers.
UW-Eau Claire has an enrollment around 10,500. Interestingly the Blugolds had their inaugural men's soccer season last year, finishing a very respectable 15-4. The first win in program history occurred on Sept. 1, 2021 at Hamline in a thrilling 4-3 double OT result. Eau Claire is off to races so far with a 6-0 start, besting Hamline, UW-Platteville (probably best win), St Scholastica, Northland, Grinnell, and UW-Superior. They have no seniors and five juniors. The roster is all from WI and MN, and the Blugolds so far have been led by Soph Nathan Donovan, a forward with 5 goals and 4 assists, Will Heinem, another soph forward with 5 points, Carter Thiesfeld and Jacob Sampson pulling the strings in the midfield, and 6'3 Ethan Andersen leading the back line and also chipping in with 4 points. GF Spencer Banks returns form last year.
Coach Casey Holm leads Eau Claire, obviously in just his second season. However, he was a lead assistant during the last glory years at St Thomas (MN) before the Tommies were forced into D1, as the Tommies made the Final Four in 2016, the Elite 8 in 2017, and Sweet 16 in 2018. He had a long and successful career in the St Paul area high school ranks, winning Minnesota HS COY in 2010 and 2013. The Blugolds finished an very impressive 16th the Learfield Directors Cup. And if you for any reason you find yourself in Eau Claire in February, 2023 don't miss the 11th Annual Jig's Up Blugold Ice Fishing Contest.
Catch the action on the Blugold Sports Entertainment Network.
Prediction....Blugolds 3, Vikings 1
UWEC 2, Bethany Lutheran 1 Final
Weekend Snapshot
Friday
4:00 -- Oglethorpe @ W&L -- The 3-1-1 Stormy Petrels make the trek from Atlanta to Lexington, VA, providing a prime opportunity for the Generals to tune up the engine against a good but not overwhelming opponent. Two wins over Oglethorpe and Emory this weekend will shove W&L right back into the top tier conversation, and the first of the two games could be the tougher one.
4:00 -- Geneseo St @ Elmira -- Geneseo is 4-1 while the Soaring Eagles of Elmira sits at 4-0-1. Regardless of the winner, this likely will be the only mention of either.
4:00 -- Brockport St @ Ithaca -- Brockport comes in at 2-0-3 while Ithaca stares down the barrel of a 0-4-1 start, with the Bombers next facing Lycoming, Clarkson, Hobart, SLU, Bard, Cortland, and Skidmore. How fortunate does Kyle Dezotell feel lounging back in his office in Medford, MA? Although, to be fair, Dezotell has had several days after the Wesleyan loss pondering the away Amherst/Williams double.
5:00 -- Maryville @ Berry -- Tennessee versus Georgia. Enough said.
5:00 -- Franciscan @ Mt Union -- The Barons take their gaudy 5-0-1 record to Mt. Union. Best start to a Barons season since 1947. Meanwhile, the Purple Raiders want to stay within earshot of the Great Lakes elite, so look for Mt Union to send Franciscan home with a first loss. Coach Krems at Mt Union prepped his guys with an unsympathetic blitzing of Hiram, his alma mater, 6-1.
6:00 -- Texas-Dallas @ Virginia Wesleyan -- Hopefully will be nice weather in Virginia Beach or is this one of those pod deals where they're really playing in Roanoke? I imagine that this is the first meeting between these two ever, but the Comets are more than happy to escape the misery in JerryJonesLand for a couple of days. TX-Dallas is 3-0-1 coming off a huge win over Trinity (TX) while the Marlins are smarting from a 1-0 defeat to Clarkson.
6:00 -- UW-Platteville @ Simpson -- Always hard to know which of these UWs are good but Platteville just waxed Wheaton (Ill) 4-1. The Simpson Storm are an Iowa ARC outfit with a 4-1 record (but 4-0 for D3). The result here is not likely to move the needle visibility-wise as vague, cloudy skies will prevail.
6:00 -- Southwestern @ St Thomas (TX) -- Southwestern is only 1-2-1 but has played some highly competitive, tough games so the 4-0 Celts could be caught off guard, especially if overconfidence is seeping into the locker room after a 7-0 demolition of Sul Ross State. St Thomas is one of those sleeper teams that is very difficult to place when doing amateur-level national polling.
6:30 -- Oneonta St @ RPI -- Oneonta led by Ian Byrne apparently grew tired of hearing about Cortland and has streaked to 4-0. RPI is trying to sustain some momentum after a very uneven start but with two wins in a row the Engineers will relish the chance to make the Red Dragons have an inhospitable stay in Troy.
7:30 -- Marietta @ Denison -- Doesn't look like much on paper...yet another NCAC vs OAC fixture, but these are exactly the kind of games that the Big Red need to win to keep the Denison and Bianco hype thriving. A two or three goal win would be nice as Denison next hosts John Carroll and then is away at Wilmington and Otterbein.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 15, 2022, 05:12:15 PM
Sleep on the Knights at your peril. Pedestrian performances against Aurora and Millikin notwithstanding, that Calvin team is loaded to the gunwales with both talent and experience. I would not be shocked even one tiny bit if we see the Knights in Salem, VA the first weekend of December.
Calvin is 5-0-1 on the season. I think they still have some work to do on defense and they need to start games quicker. They are loaded with talent, but you can't get down to quality opponents later in the year and tourney time and just expect to be able to flip a switch like they have done so far. Calvin has fallen behind in 5 of the 6 games they've played but have outscored their opponents 11-0 in the second half.
Quote
Regardless of the winner, this likely will be the only mention of either.
QuoteHow fortunate does Kyle Dezotell feel lounging back in his office in Medford, MA?
QuoteTennessee versus Georgia. Enough said.
QuoteHopefully will be nice weather in Virginia Beach or is this one of those pod deals where they're really playing in Roanoke?
QuoteAlways hard to know which of these UWs are good
QuoteSt Thomas is one of those sleeper teams that is very difficult to place when doing amateur-level national polling.
That's quality right there. Well done PN!
Haha, thanks Ejay.
Wait until you see the one coming. Sometimes being a (mostly) benign narcissist can be useful or at least entertaining to others.
Greetings all - allow me to introduce myself. Joe O'Reilly. I played soccer/rode the bench for Kenyon College during the halcyon Jack Detchon years in the 1990s when we were runner-up national champions. Since then, I've been watching, following, and scouting soccer players. I have been shadowing this community for years and would love to start sharing some thoughts.
Quote from: QUBTechLord on September 16, 2022, 08:07:39 PM
Greetings all - allow me to introduce myself. Joe O'Reilly. I played soccer/rode the bench for Kenyon College during the halcyon Jack Detchon years in the 1990s when we were runner-up national champions. Since then, I've been watching, following, and scouting soccer players. I have been shadowing this community for years and would love to start sharing some thoughts.
Outstanding! Welcome!
SC.
Weekend Snapshot (cont-)
Saturday
11:00 – Manhattanville @ Drew – Manhattanville isn't in Manhattan (or NYC), which is confusing and time constraints do not permit doing the research about the name. However, the 14th caller with the correct answer will snag a Valiants jersey. Manhattanville visits Drew with a 2-1-1 record, noteworthy for a draw with Stevens (the only Stevens blemish) and win over RPI. Valiants GK, Luis Granados, is a mountain of a man at 6'6, 225 lbs, and a few days ago kept Amherst off the board for 50 minutes. Drew merely has marched to 6-0 with best wins over New Paltz St and TCNJ. The Rangers are 6-0 for the first time since 2011. I'm expecting the Valiants to hand Drew its first loss of 2022.
12:00 – Wesleyan @ Brandeis – The second largest NESCAC takes on the smallest UAA school in a New England "perfect soccer weather" battle. Brandeis is anxious to rebound from a down year while Wesleyan is flying high after knocking off Tufts. A W (and a L) for either could be important in November when the cmte is trying to spit hairs over whom to rank ahead of who when records and SoS are nearly identical. Brandeis isn't quite Tufts, but the Cardinals could have a tough time in Waltham. A Cards win will likely result in D3 soccer top 25 fan poll recognition, which, of course, is coveted. The ESPN algorithm yielded a 76% chance of a draw.
12:00 -- Hamilton @ Middlebury – Quick, guess which other NESCAC Hamilton is closest to...I guessed Middlebury and I was wrong...3.5 hours to Middlebury, VT and 2.5 to Williamstown, MA. The Continentals stride into the Green Mountain state unblemished at 3-0...but they may need a dermatologist after this one (and you can't get an appointment until Spring). But if not now, when? Hamilton's next three NESCAC tilts are hosting Tufts and Wesleyan followed by guesting in New London to visit the defending national champs. Special shout-out to the Otter Creek Bakery and the front porch at the Middlebury Inn.
1:00 – Skidmore @ New Paltz St – I finally looked up where New Paltz is and learned its basically next door to Poughkeepsie (home of Vassar who just beat the Hawks). The Thoroughbreds will travel 106 miles on I-87/Rte 9. Talk about two teams difficult to get a handle on...they seduce you into thinking their consistently solid programs will have a banner year and by the time you do get a handle on them they're no longer in the mix. Last year New Paltz forced itself on to the radar with only losses to Rowan and Vassar before losing three out their last four games. The Hawks opened this year with a scoreless draw against Union and loss to Drew but then beat NYU before losing narrowly again to Vassar. Skidmore drew with WPI, beat UMass-Boston, lost 1-0 to Rowan, and then smoked Haverford 4-1.
1:00 – WPI @ Coast Guard – I can't get excited about this one. I just can't.
1:00 – Ohio Northern @ Hanover – Ditto...The main interest here is which team ends up sneaking into the bottom end of the Great Lakes regional rankings in early November so that the higher ranked teams can see if their results against them will help or hurt. That said, ONU should be flying high after clipping OWU but Hanover is a very tough place to get a win (and is the alma mater of a very recent US Vice-President).
1:00 -- Plattsburgh St @ Cortland St – Yes, I know Plattsburgh is 4-1, but other than the 2-1 loss to RPI they've been gorging on cupcakes. Cortland has to win this game. Indeed, the Red Dragons need to go on a seven to eight game rampage to get themselves solidly back on SimpleCoach's Doppler.
1:00 – Bates @ Williams – I'm disappointed about the Bates situation. Seemed like the program was on the upswing despite the ultra-competitive NESCAC scene, but just a few weeks ago an interim coach installed. Not sure I could ever feel sorry for Williams which has been the #1 LAC according to US News for 165 consecutive years, but the Ephs have not been able to get back to the top end of the conference. Nevertheless, Bates is 3-1 with three cupcakes and a tight Bowdoin loss. Bates gets to go home for two games but unfortunately the two opponents happen to be Amherst and Middlebury. I'm getting Sonny Liston Lewiston vibes. Williams, meanwhile, entertains Tufts and Amherst sandwiched around a Maine trip for Colby and Bowdoin.
1:00 – Cabrini @ Eastern – Mid-Atlantic Fan, where are you? I know we have some Cabrini watchers....what gives? Losses to Haverford and Delaware Valley, draws with DeSales and Lehman, and most recently wins over Washington Coll and Rutgers-Camden. And I wonder if Eastern made their schedule when Jeremy Payne of Messiah fame was still there before heading to Washington state...two losses to Christopher Newport and Virginia Wesleyan, a loss to Wash Coll, finally a win over Lehman, and then a draw with Cairn.
2:00 – Bowdoin @ Conn Coll – I'll let someone like Mr.Right explain Bowdoin. Always solid, often giant killers with a particular fondness for Tufts, and yet year after year you can pencil the Polar Bears in for somewhere between 5th to 7th in NESCAC. I do have a feeling Conn Coll will be pumped up to produce a national fave-like performance.
2:00 – Montclair St @ Vassar – I'm just gonna let this story tell itself.
2:00 – Trinity (TX) @ Colorado Coll – Trinity has been struggling but the Tigers visited their PCP who prescribed Colorado College...an elixir that almost always seems to do the trick for Trinity. And Colorado Springs...what a great place to spend a mid-September afternoon.
2:00 – Rochester @ Hobart – The Hobart Statesmen are another Liberty League group that seems to always be partly cloudy as well. They certainly can't compete with their better half, William Smith (yes, the women's side of the college is named after a man). Hobart had a relatively weak schedule until running into Oneonta and Hobart needs a win here to gin up a little excitement in Geneva. Rochester stunned opening day with the win over Cortland and the win over Mt Union was probably a good one as well. Since then, the Rochester hype has cooled and the Yellow Jackets are coming off a draw with local rival RIT.
2:00 – Babson @ Wheaton (MA) – With MIT falling off a cliff, Babson and Wheaton look to be top half NEWMAC teams at minimum. Wheaton is quietly 4-1-1 and a win here might get the folks in Norton, MA more excited than they've been in a half-decade. Babson has been tabbed as a team to watch this season, and while the hype might have gotten a little exaggerated the Beavers are still 3-1-1 with plenty of potential left for a great season. A loss to Wheaton right now could be deflating. By the way, Wheaton scored four in the Lyons' most recent contest against St. Joseph's (ME), and I'm guessing it's been quite a while since anyone put up four markers on the Monks.
2:00 – Trinity (CT) @ Colby – Nope, I can't do it...other than to say this is a must-win game for the Mules.
2:30 – Tufts @ Amherst – Game of the day, but I'm already sick of talking about both of them. Make sure the EMT units are on site. Tufts probably needs this game more than the Mammoths but Amherst no doubt feels like they owe the Jumbos some misery. The worst part for Tufts is that they will have to "leave it all on the field" and then face a hungry Williams squad the very next day.
3:00 – Dickinson @ Haverford – The Red Devils had their bubble burst quite a bit in Grantham but the good news is that no one will make too much of that since Messiah is a top end D1 team with La Liga highlight-reel flair. But Dickinson needs to get back on the horse and get a result with the Fords. Haverford is another hard to figure team...an emerging national contender just a few years ago and still capable but after a win versus Rowan the Fords are 0-2-1, losing to Lycoming, being dismantled by Skidmore, and tying Arcadia.
3:00 – Carthage @ UW-Eau Claire – The Blugolds handled their business last night and now move up a step in competition. Carthage has not been good but a win by Eau Claire would still be a another significant step forward. I was impressed with the quality of play for both Eau Claire and Bethany Lutheran...more so than watching Kenyon/Wilmington the prior evening.
3:30 – Hope @ Rose Hulman – Rose Hulman at 3-0-1 is inching up into Doppler category with the only blemish a respectable draw with North Central. Everyone keeps saying Hope is a good team, and they may be as they have four draws and a loss against mostly very good teams. The Dutchmen need a win in Terre Haute in the worst way.
4:00 – Chicago @ Luther – Upset alert! And afterwards the pundits will say that the loss will benefit the Maroons in the long run (and sometimes cliches are true).
4:00 – Mary Washington @ Roanoke – The Mary Washington Eagles seem like a very good, hard-luck team. They are 3-2 with a 1-0 loss to Hopkins and 3-2 loss to Cortland. No shame there. And they blew out Emory 4-1 but after Emory was one of my projected top contenders a year ago and held a high national ranking most of the year it's hard to give that Emory win a ton of credit this season. Roanoke beat a now 5-1-1 Stockton on opening day but since then has looked pretty average. Roanoke usually puts on a good video production and of course their complex is the host for the Final Four.
4:00 – Wartburg @ North Central – Sneaky big game for both and a chance at a regionally ranked win for down the road. North Central is 4-0-2 while Wartburg is 3-0-2. Two more teams hard to peg in terms of national relevance. Wartburg has the best win of the two against St. Olaf but that win is not looking quite as significant right now although St Olaf should right the ship and finish strong.
4:30 – Gustavus Adolphus Coll (GAC) @ Carleton – Two perennial MIAC leaders in the North region. GAC, otherwise known as the Gusties, are 4-0-2, notable results being a draw with Wartburg, draw with new friend Bethany Lutheran, and an impressive 3-1 win over Loras. In 2019 GAC was 18-3-1, won the MIAC, and failed to advance in the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney versus North Park via PKs. Last year GAC rebounded from an 0-2 start to go on a major winning streak that carried the Gusties to 14-4 (8-2 and tied for 2nd in MIAC) before an upset loss to St Johns that may kept GAC out of the tournament. Meanwhile, Carleton is 2-2 with losses to North Central and Simpson. Last year Carleton was 13-4-2 (also 8-2) and upset St Olaf in the conference final before bowing out in the NCAA 1st round, also to North Park. Carleton is smarter but GAC has more gusto haha.
5:30 – Puget Sound @ Willamette – A NWC collision. The Puget Sound Loggers are led by Coach Reese Olney in his 29th season. Olney has won four NWC titles, but not since 2013 when the Loggers were dispatched in the NCAA 2nd round by Trinity (TX). After a 7-12-1 record in 1998 the Loggers were 20-2 in 1999 a record turnaround for a D3 program and lasted to the NCAA quarterfinals. Puget Sound is 4-0-2 this season, with a tie versus Colorado Coll and three wins against non-D3 foes. Willamette's skipper is only in his 2nd year after only graduating from Willamette in 2016. The Bearcats have had only one NCAA tourney appearance, in 2017, exiting in the 1st round after a 1-0 loss to Mary Hardin-Baylor. They were only 10-7-2 (9-3-2 conference) but due to some complicated tiebreakers the Bearcats were awarded the AQ over NWC co-champ Pac Lutheran. Willamette currently is 2-0-2, drawing with C-M-S and Cal Lutheran and getting wins over Colorado Coll and UC Santa Cruz.
6:00 – OWU @ John Carroll – Another game of the day. OK, this is getting serious. Both of these teams were supposed to be at the top of Great Lakes right along with Kenyon, Otterbein, Denison, etc. OWU is STILL looking for its first win. JCU is 2-2-1 and the loss to Carnegie Mellon in the closing seconds was a gut punch as imo JCU is superior to CMU. JCU needs this OWU game especially for regional ranking considerations at the end of the season, and this game for JCU is followed by a trip to Denison and hosting Calvin. Edgy times for these two programs but both are still more likely than not to make the tournament. They will have very strong SoS and if necessary both will be capable of winning their conference AQ.
6:00 – Washington Coll @ F&M – What the heck is going on in Chestertown, MD? So much joy throughout the community there as Coach Dunshee's Shoremen were last year's Cinderella darlings and nearly knocked off Tufts in the Sweet 16. Wash Coll is 1-1-2, with draws against weak Salisbury and pretty good York (PA), a win over depleted Eastern, and a disastrous loss to Cabrini. Were the Shoremen just a one year wonder, ready to rejoin Ursinus and the like at the bottom of the Centennial? Let's hope not. As for F&M, the Dips started slow but we're realizing the one loss was to an apparently outstanding Stevens squad, and tight victories the past two outings over E'town and PS-Harrisburg may signal (and taking peek at the schedule ahead) that F&M is on the cusp of an eight to 10 game rampage before getting the likes of Swat and Hopkins later. A lot riding on this one and might be one of the games of the weekend. Have to say I don't love watching F&M video with weird angles but the commentary is excellent.
6:00 – Knox @ North Park – The only prairie fire in this one will be inside the 8x24 structure allegedly supervised by the Knox GK.
6:00 – Covenant at Virginia Wesleyan – One of the years I'll figure out that Oglethorpe and Covenant are not the same school...and not even in the same states. Oh wait. They are in the same state, as never knew Lookout Mtn, TN has a sister/brother Lookout Mtn, GA.
6:30 – NYU @ Rutgers-Newark – How many cards in this one? Known world-wide, as an institution, NYU last year in some ways had a similar regular season to not-known-worldwide Washington Coll (where 90% of those asked would be unable to correctly name what state Wash Coll resides in). The Violets were red-hot until faltering late, and they were a darkhorse NCAA pick. NYU in 2022 is 2-2-1, with losses to New Paltz St and Stevens and a tie with Merchant Marine. NYU needs a good win in the worst way, and it's not clear whether Rutgers-Newark would be considered a good win in November...BUT...pick your poison...as the Violets head to Messiah for their next outing. Newark is 2-2-2, also losing to Stevens as well as to Babson, draws with Salisbury and St Mary's and a single win versus Marywood (another what state are you in school). Over/under on number of cards versus goals?
6:30 – Stevens @ TCNJ – Seems like Stevens has beaten every single team I've mentioned, and this should be an other W.
7:00 – Brockport St @ Medaille – Brockport takes the short ride to Buffalo. Brockport is 2-1-3 with several pedestrian draws, handed Ithaca their only win, and narrowly beat Nazareth and Houghton. Now, name four other teams in Medaille's conference. And if you mentioned PS-Behrend start over. Medaille is a perennial conference champ of some conference. The Mavericks' 4-0-1 ledger features a non-D3 win over Briggs & Stratton (actually Bryant & Stratton but I've been waiting two weeks for that joke) and a more impressive 4-2 showing versus Ps-Harrisburg.
7:00 – Bethany @ Carnegie Mellon – I'll just say it as the CMU fans here seem to have run for the hills after last year's catastrophe. CMU tends to have the weakest schedule of all UAA teams, but the Tartans have really outdone themselves this campaign. Bethany can play a little, though, so CMU could have their hands full. The Bison are 4-1-1 with the only loss coming to CWRU. Most recent results were a tie with Marietta and a road win 2-0 at Oberlin (not astounding, but not nothing).
7:00 – Johns Hopkins @ Swarthmore – Most intense academic settings in the United States? These two, along with Chicago, have got to be in the top 10. In the early days, Hopkins is my national darkhorse team at the moment. Big game for both. That Swat field is so dark on video.
8:00 – Illinois Wesleyan @ Loras – Loras drew early praise after sneaking out of Delaware, OH with a win, but the bandwagon has shed some weight after losing to GAC. Still, the Duhawks should be favored in every game the rest of the regular season with the possible exceptions of Luther and Wartburg. The ARC battle should come down to Dubuque, Decorah, and Waverly.
10:00 – La Verne @ C-M-S – Can C-M-S win a game?! In the Stags' defense, they have had draws and narrow losses against a killer schedule, but come on. If the Stags can't get a victory at home against La Verne....well, lets see what happens. After an 0-4-1 beginning, La Verne has won two straight, over NWC doormat Linfield and the Whittier Poets.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 08:17:28 PM
Weekend Snapshot (cont-)
Saturday
11:00 – Manhattanville @ Drew – Manhattanville isn't in Manhattan (or NYC), which is confusing and time constraints do not permit doing the research about the name. However, the 14th caller with the correct answer will snag a Valiants jersey. Manhattanville visits Drew with a 2-1-1 record, noteworthy for a draw with Stevens (the only Stevens blemish) and win over RPI. Valiants GK, Luis Granados, is a mountain of a man at 6'6, 225 lbs, and a few days ago kept Amherst off the board for 50 minutes. Drew merely has marched to 6-0 with best wins over New Paltz St and TCNJ. The Rangers are 6-0 for the first time since 2011. I'm expecting the Valiants to hand Drew its first loss of 2022.
Think the town they are located in used to be called Manhattanville, but now it is Purchase, NY. XL works for me.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 16, 2022, 08:28:12 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 08:17:28 PM
Weekend Snapshot (cont-)
Saturday
11:00 – Manhattanville @ Drew – Manhattanville isn't in Manhattan (or NYC), which is confusing and time constraints do not permit doing the research about the name. However, the 14th caller with the correct answer will snag a Valiants jersey. Manhattanville visits Drew with a 2-1-1 record, noteworthy for a draw with Stevens (the only Stevens blemish) and win over RPI. Valiants GK, Luis Granados, is a mountain of a man at 6'6, 225 lbs, and a few days ago kept Amherst off the board for 50 minutes. Drew merely has marched to 6-0 with best wins over New Paltz St and TCNJ. The Rangers are 6-0 for the first time since 2011. I'm expecting the Valiants to hand Drew its first loss of 2022.
Think the town they are located in used to be called Manhattanville, but now it is Purchase, NY. XL works for me.
LOL. I thought I put in a line about actually 35 miles outside NYC and I had figured out Purchase. What I didn't know and still don't is why the college is named Manhattanville.
And, be honest. You already have a Manhattanville jersey!
What the heck is going on with Emory? Losing 5-2...to Hampden-Sydney?
Just seeing some of the scores coming in....RPI-Oneonta draw...VWU over TX-Dallas...Southwestern and St Thomas draw...Christopher Newport 1-0 over Covenant.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 08:17:28 PM
1:00 – Ohio Northern @ Hanover – Ditto...The main interest here is which team ends up sneaking into the bottom end of the Great Lakes regional rankings in early November so that the higher ranked teams can see if their results against them will help or hurt. That said, ONU should be flying high after clipping OWU but Hanover is a very tough place to get a win (and is the alma mater of a very recent US Vice-President).
Fun fact: There have been five U.S. vice-presidents from Indiana, and each of them graduated from what is now a D3 institution:
Thomas Hendricks (March-November 1885),
HanoverCharles Fairbanks (1905-1909),
Ohio WesleyanThomas Marshall (1913-1921),
WabashDan Quayle (1989-93),
DePauwMike Pence (2017-21),
HanoverBefore they became veeps, three of them served as U.S. senators from Indiana, and the other two had been governors of Indiana.
Quote from: QUBTechLord on September 16, 2022, 08:07:39 PM
Greetings all - allow me to introduce myself. Joe O'Reilly. I played soccer/rode the bench for Kenyon College during the halcyon Jack Detchon years in the 1990s when we were runner-up national champions. Since then, I've been watching, following, and scouting soccer players. I have been shadowing this community for years and would love to start sharing some thoughts.
Hello Joe. What a treat to have you pop in especially if you've been following along most of the past decade or so. Please share whatever thoughts you have. Some of these threads are obviously more for current stuff and would love to hear your impressions about the D3 soccer scene in 2022. From my pov, please post whenever and wherever you like, but I'm also gonna start a new thread to invite you and alums from other schools to share past experiences.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 08:17:28 PM
Saturday
11:00 – Manhattanville @ Drew – Manhattanville isn't in Manhattan (or NYC), which is confusing and time constraints do not permit doing the research about the name. However, the 14th caller with the correct answer will snag a Valiants jersey. Manhattanville visits Drew with a 2-1-1 record, noteworthy for a draw with Stevens (the only Stevens blemish) and win over RPI. Valiants GK, Luis Granados, is a mountain of a man at 6'6, 225 lbs, and a few days ago kept Amherst off the board for 50 minutes. Drew merely has marched to 6-0 with best wins over New Paltz St and TCNJ. The Rangers are 6-0 for the first time since 2011. I'm expecting the Valiants to hand Drew its first loss of 2022.
Drew wins 2-1 with goals by Tyson (6) on an unmarked header from the 6, and Kiernan (5) who chipped the GK from distance after he came out too high, misplayed the ball, and couldn't get back in time. This is a good win. They opened the season against some pathetic teams (St. Elizabeth, really??) and haven't really played anyone - maybe New Paltz being the exception. With Kean, Goucher and DeSales next up, Drew has a realistic chance of being 10-0 heading into their October battle with Catholic. The winner of that game most likely gets the #1 Landmark seed.
Weekend Snapshot (cont-)
First, let me say my ambition yesterday to comment on so many games for today's action far exceeded my fitness level. I started cramping by the 55th minute but tried to gut it out. I need to settle on maybe five games a day to comment on but the downside there is that could often mean highlighting many of the same teams over and over. But I realized this morning when my family did an intervention that something has to give. They told me I dozed off around 10:30 last night with a scoreless draw between East Texas Baptist University and Centenary (LA) streaming on my laptop next to me. To be fair, though, without checking on that game I would have never seen (for the first time in 11-12 years) a broadcast with a little box in the top left hand corner that ran live stats play by play. That feature really did not obstruct the view...unlike the PIP of the scoreboard for John Carroll productions.
Sunday
1:00 -- Texas-Dallas @ Christopher Newport – These big trip, two game weekends don't always pan out as planned. Often the idea is to have a "probable win" match followed or preceded by a "big test, OK if we draw or lose" match. When the visitors already have lost the "probable win" game (see Emory below) that can really put a damper on the weekend and may change the dynamic for the other game. A long way of saying the TX-Dallas Comets lost a hard fought contest with Virginia Wesleyan 3-2 and now have to deal with CNU on the Captains' beautiful home pitch. The good news is that the Comets can salvage their weekend by beating the Captains who are known to drop games like this here and there. We know the Comets are capable because they topped Trinity (TX) a week ago. If the Comets prevail they'll have a likely regionally ranked win in their pocket while the loss to the Marlins likely won't register down the road in regional rankings considerations. Today's match should be a free-wheeling, end to end affair.
2:00 -- Tufts @ Williams – Very hard to handicap without knowing the result of Tufts @ Amherst later today. Williams may benefit either way but should be rooting for a Tufts win so that the Jumbos roll into Williamstown satiated, ebullient, and primed for a letdown. A wounded Tufts after a rare two game loss streak with its Jumbo snout all out of sorts would be a handful. I'm surprised Williams alums haven't revolted...gotta be killing them for the Ephs to be almost an afterthought in NESCAC these days. Williams made the Final Four in 2013 in Russo's next to last season and the Ephs have had only one NCAA appearance since then...in 2018 after finishing 6th in the NESCAC and being summarily dismissed in the 1st round by Elizabethtown. Meanwhile, the Ephs have watched three other NESCAC programs win a slew of national titles.
3:00 -- Emory @ W&L – Emory returned 21 players from last year's NCAA squad, but I guess a handful of their top players are gone. I would have pegged the Eagles as a national contender along the lines of a Hopkins, but back to back losses to Sewanee and Hampden-Sydney are baffling even if it's a rebuild season. I wanna say Emory is wounded and thus W&L should be on upset alert, but wounded is different than being on life-support and I just don't see the Generals easing up at all as W&L continues to get its mojo back.
3:00 -- DePauw @ Centre – These two used to have some really good Great Lakes battles before Centre was re-districted to the South Atlantic (now know as Region VI). Centre has not always dominated the SAA but did just two seasons ago enjoy a surprise run to the Final Four after Kenyon and then Montclair spit the bit in Gambier. DePauw was challenging OWU and then Kenyon and OWU for NCAC supremacy for about the first half-decade of the 2010s but in the last few years the talent level and results have dipped. Brad Hauter, DePauw grad from 1987 and former standout GK for the Tigers, has led the program since 2008, and recently announced this is his last season. His counterpart for Centre, Jeb Burch, also was a GK and 1994 Centre grad who has now been the head ball coach since 2002.
5:30 -- Pac Lutheran @ Willamette – The Lutes should be 6-0 heading to Willamette for the first of two matches between these foes in the NWC round-robin structure. Willamette has home field on Sunday but on paper will have exhausted more energy competing with Puget Sound today.
Quote from: Ejay on September 17, 2022, 01:04:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 08:17:28 PM
Saturday
11:00 – Manhattanville @ Drew – Manhattanville isn't in Manhattan (or NYC), which is confusing and time constraints do not permit doing the research about the name. However, the 14th caller with the correct answer will snag a Valiants jersey. Manhattanville visits Drew with a 2-1-1 record, noteworthy for a draw with Stevens (the only Stevens blemish) and win over RPI. Valiants GK, Luis Granados, is a mountain of a man at 6'6, 225 lbs, and a few days ago kept Amherst off the board for 50 minutes. Drew merely has marched to 6-0 with best wins over New Paltz St and TCNJ. The Rangers are 6-0 for the first time since 2011. I'm expecting the Valiants to hand Drew its first loss of 2022.
Drew wins 2-1 with goals by Tyson (6) on an unmarked header from the 6, and Kiernan (5) who chipped the GK from distance after he came out too high, misplayed the ball, and couldn't get back in time. This is a good win. They opened the season against some pathetic teams (St. Elizabeth, really??) and haven't really played anyone - maybe New Paltz being the exception. With Kean, Goucher and DeSales next up, Drew has a realistic chance of being 10-0 heading into their October battle with Catholic. The winner of that game most likely gets the #1 Landmark seed.
I also missed on the Franciscan vs Mt Union game, as the Barons came back from a 3-1 deficit to tie the Purple Raiders. I somehow also screwed up Wesleyan @ Brandeis which actually is Brandeis @ Wesleyan which could tip that game in the Cardinals' favor. Anyway, I also think that is a good win for Drew. A win over Kean also would be good.
I hate when I have to rip up my fan poll ballot and start over. Wow, what a day...and it's not over.
Midd loses at home to Hamilton. Then Conn loses at home at Bowdoin. Then Amherst loses at home to Tufts (ironically the most predictable outcome of those three).
Hobart shuts out Rochester. Trinity (TX) falls to Colorado Coll. Ohio Northern gets a good win at Hanover.
Two results that caught my eye....Wesleyan blanking Brandeis 3-0, and Babson clobbering Wheaton (MA) on the road.
Montclair gets by Vassar. Cortland held to a draw by Plattsburgh. Drew tops Manhattanville. Williams crushes Bates. New Paltz and Skidmore share the points.
And UW-Eau Claire is gonna get a big win over Carthage...3-1 with a minute left.
There is no arguing with the success of the Amherst program. But seriously, I'm surprised really good soccer players want to play there because they play so little soccer. That was really painful to watch but in addition watching a game where you want both teams to lose is tough.
Where is Cubeddu? And is he related to the Wesleyan Cubeddu?
Ten Cate has got to be one of the most histrionic in D3. And complains constantly.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 17, 2022, 05:11:19 PM
There is no arguing with the success of the Amherst program. But seriously, I'm surprised really good soccer players want to play there because they play so little soccer. That was really painful to watch ...
Im sorry. Can't read your post. My eyes are still bleeding.
SC.
Huge win for Jombos, first at Amherst since 2002, in a regular season game! When you come out of a fight like this you are prepared for just about any opponent.
Brutal loss for Luther. Chicago scores with just over a minute left to win 2-1. Still, very impressed that Luther looked like they were playing Chicago straight up and played real soccer. If anything, the last 10 minutes the Norse tried to play around too muhc in their own third and almost got burned....and couldn't see the Chicago goal because camera didn't move but ironically towards the end the Maroons were resorting to kick and run and I think they scored off a long ball from about 10 yards in their own half to a kid who scored but not sure exactly how. I don't think I saw Wada...injured?
Yeah, doesn't look like Wada played at all. And only 21 minutes off the bench for Yetishevsky.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 17, 2022, 06:05:57 PM....and couldn't see the Chicago goal because camera didn't move
Of all the times for the cameraman to lose the ball. Was following the cross and halfway there stopped.
I just tuned in for the final few minutes. Was surprised to see the stats very even between the two teams.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 17, 2022, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 17, 2022, 06:05:57 PM....and couldn't see the Chicago goal because camera didn't move
Of all the times for the cameraman to lose the ball. Was following the cross and halfway there stopped.
I just tuned in for the final few minutes. Was surprised to see the stats very even between the two teams.
Yes, I watched probably the last 20 minutes and based on that Luther deserved at least a draw. As SC noted in his thread Luther had a point blank opportunity late before the Chicago GW. Also seemed like there was audio commentary but even on full volume I couldn't make it out.
Just checked into the Swat-Hop game... Man, I'm old. When we played them up there, the field was like.. this weird patch of land in the middle of campus, I think? Definitely not that glorious athletic array I'm seeing. Not even close.
I did not have OWU 0-4-2 and UW-Eau Claire 8-0 on my preseason bingo card.
In fairness, OWU's losses are to Loras, Calvin, Ohio Northern, and John Carroll.
Tonight I called one of the most amazing games I've ever seen.
I know that, given how poorly Knox has fared this season, most people would look at North Park's 2-1 victory over the Prairie Fire tonight and think, "Wow, bad result for NPU." They might even think that perhaps the Vikings aren't all that, after all.
But you'd think otherwise if you saw the game, because even the box score and the PBP don't really tell the story.
Coming in, it was NPU coach Kris Grahn's plan to: a) mix and match his players, using some in different positions and with some different combinations, so several of the starters came off of the bench; and b) use his #2 GK Sebastianas Uribe in the net to get him some work -- heck, to get his feet wet, period, since he's only a freshman and he'd never been in a college varsity game before. It was a logical game plan that would make something useful out of what promised to be a total slaughter of a bad opponent. Little did Kris know that there would be a problem with a center ref who had some sort of serious attitude disorder.
So, even though the Vikings scored three and a half minutes in when the Knox GK panicked and took out North Park striker Isak Flo's legs on a loose ball in the box, leading to a William de Carro PK goal, they nevertheless looked out of sync as a unit for most of the first half. But then, just as they were starting to turn it up a notch, one of the Vikings got carded for a high foot in which a Knox player got clipped by it. Thirty seconds later, when he saw that the Knox trainers were still attending to the player who'd received a piece of that high foot, the center ref walked back to the offending Viking and held up another yellow card.
OK, so that's a little nuts to go back and change your card call like that, but it is what it is. So North Park goes down a man at 38:30. Kris Grahn does adjust his formation by moving Angel Barriga back to make it a four-back config rather than a three-back, and Toby Lunde goes back to midfield and leaves Flo alone up top for the Vikings. But other than that, the Vikings are still playing 120 yards of soccer, and they get to the half up 1-0.
The second half starts, and the Vikings keep playing aggressively. They even get called for a couple more offsides (overeagerness being a bit of problem for them this evening). It pays off almost immediately, as Flo gets the ball after Love Brandt had neatly pickpocketed a Knox midfielder, goes around two Knox defenders and then the Knox GK with some nifty dekes and bursts of speed, and then finishes off the highlight-reel play to notch a shortie, his third goal of the season. So ... 2-0, Vikes. That should be more than adequate insurance, even in a man-down situation, against a clearly outclassed opponent, right?
Well, then it got weird.
Another Viking gets whistled for a hard tackle at 54:24 ... and out comes the red. It was a perfectly ordinary hard tackle. There was no potential goal-scoring situation anywhere in sight. Nobody got hurt, or even feigned getting hurt. Nobody used naughty words, be they in English, Swedish, or any other language. So now North Park is down two players, with 35:36 still left to play in the contest.
Now, I'd never seen a college men's soccer game in which a team had to play nine against the other team's eleven. Maybe for someone such as Simple Coach who's seen a million more college soccer games than I have, this is old hat, but it's a first for me. I've seen double-shorthanded situations in hockey plenty of times, but it always lasts for less than two minutes, and you can guard the confined space around a hockey goal pretty easily with a tight triangle in front of the goalie. You can't do that in soccer, with its much bigger playing surface and larger goal, and, again, we're talking about having to do this for well over half an hour of playing time. But I figured that, at the very least, Kris Grahn would park the bus, or park however many pieces of bus he had left.
He didn't. He viewed it as a learning opportunity for his team, so he put them in a 4-3-1 and had them keep playing their game. And it worked. The Vikings actually controlled possession better down two men than they had before. It was an amazing display of technical soccer, not just in terms of elusive footwork but in terms of passing and anticipation as well. Even more amazing is that: a) Kris Grahn never subbed out his backup goalkeeper; and b) in the second half he never used perhaps the most technically accomplished player on the roster, midfielder Frans Dao, who just stood on the sidelines and watched along with everybody else. I had a hard time reaching for superlatives to describe what the Vikings were doing. At one point I started counting consecutive successful passes out loud, and they got to fourteen before Knox got the ball back. Fourteen passes strung together, using eight field players against ten, and the first twelve of those passes were executed without a Knox player even touching the ball. Just to up the ante, that entire sequence was conducted within twenty yards of the near touchline, so the Vikings were really only able to go in three directions rather than four.
It was absolutely jaw-dropping. I can only compare it to the Harlem Globetrotters playing the Washington Generals, or to one of those softball games back in the day involving the legendary barnstorming team "the King and His Court," in which said team would include only a pitcher, catcher, shortstop, and first baseman, and would still whip the other team soundly. A lot of this is on Knox, of course. Their skill level isn't all that high to begin with, and they made things worse by playing frustrated -- a frustrated team squanders energy needlessly and repeatedly does the wrong things. They made bad decisions, and they didn't execute properly in the few situations they had in which they had the ball with a chance to press their tremendous advantage. Still, two extra men ought to be enough to overcome those difficulties. But it wasn't.
I kept saying on the air (as if I'd ever seen any two-men-down games before) that the one thing the Vikings had to worry about most was giving up a corner kick; I reasoned that the one place where Knox would best be able to exploit their advantage in numbers would be if they stuffed the six with too many players for the Vikings to mark on a corner. The Vikings did elude one 9 x 11 Knox corner in the 61st minute, but, finally, in the 87th minute on another corner kick, a Knox player headed the initial ball only to have it blocked, the ball fell at the feet of an unmarked Prairie Fireman, and he kicked it past Uribe to make it 2-1. In the scramble of the last couple of minutes, Knox got a couple of genuinely golden opportunities with close-in free kicks, but rather than do the smart thing by exploiting their numerical superiority on either wing, they thoughtlessly kicked it straight both times, once right into NPU's three-man wall and once ten feet over the wall's heads.
When the final horn sounded, the entire Vikings roster rushed out onto the field, cups and water and Gatorade flying everywhere, as if they'd just won the conference championship. You could sense that they knew they'd been a part of something pretty weird and pretty magical. I walked out of the press box with a different sense of respect for them.
Interesting night Greg. I'm reminded of two things:
Regarding the double red: In my sophomore year, we had a game abandoned in the second half because our opponent received so many red cards they no longer had the required minimum number of players required to continue! It got ugly and the police were called to help escort the team from the bench to the bus.
Regarding 9v11: In my favorite soccer book, which I've pitched here a few times, The Numbers Game: Why Everything You Know About Soccer Is Wrong By Chris Anderson, David Sally, there's this passage on page 213...
'Take Arrigo Sacchi. Though not a top-level player himself, Sacchi was the mastermind behind the rise of AC Milan, making them the finest side in the world in the late 1980s. In 2004, the Italian was appointed as technical director of Real Madrid.
I convinced Gullit and Van Basten by telling them that five organised players would beat ten disorganised ones,' Saachi explained. 'And I proved it to them. I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had ten players: Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lantignotti and Mannari. They had fifteen minutes to score against my five players, the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from ten metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once.'
There is something that happens when a team goes down a man or up a man. The team that goes down a man is forced to organize itself from a survival stand point. Obviously, the attack is what gets sacrificed, but more importantly it removes decision from the rest of the players. For a team that is up a man, something happens where they lose their organization because psychologically they think they are a man up and think they have a lot more time and space to whatever they want.
I've not heard about that from Arrigo Sacchi before. But the brilliance of it ....
SC.
Quote from: Ejay on September 18, 2022, 07:49:46 AMRegarding 9v11: In my favorite soccer book, which I've pitched here a few times, The Numbers Game: Why Everything You Know About Soccer Is Wrong By Chris Anderson, David Sally, there's this passage on page 213...
'Take Arrigo Sacchi. Though not a top-level player himself, Sacchi was the mastermind behind the rise of AC Milan, making them the finest side in the world in the late 1980s. In 2004, the Italian was appointed as technical director of Real Madrid.
I convinced Gullit and Van Basten by telling them that five organised players would beat ten disorganised ones,' Saachi explained. 'And I proved it to them. I took five players: Giovanni Galli in goal, Tassotti, Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi. They had ten players: Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Virdis, Evani, Ancelotti, Colombo, Donadoni, Lantignotti and Mannari. They had fifteen minutes to score against my five players, the only rule was that if we won possession or they lost the ball, they had to start over from ten metres inside their own half. I did this all the time and they never scored. Not once.'
An AC Milan
catenaccio analogy? I'll gladly take that. ;)
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 18, 2022, 08:01:45 AM
There is something that happens when a team goes down a man or up a man. The team that goes down a man is forced to organize itself from a survival stand point. Obviously, the attack is what gets sacrificed,
That's the thing, though; NPU didn't play from a survival standpoint
at all. For one, they tallied a shortie, and they got it by being very aggressive on a turnover play. But even when they were down two men they were still playing 120-yard soccer. I mean, they were called for offsides twice while down a man, and yet again while down two men,
all three calls of which came on Knox's defensive side of the pitch. Sure, they limited the number of players that went forward on a possession, but there was no passivity or we-have-to-endure mentality at all on their part. There was absolutely none of the clear-it-as-far-as-you-can stuff from the Vikings in their back third. That was half of what was amazing about it all.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 18, 2022, 08:01:45 AMbut more importantly it removes decision from the rest of the players. For a team that is up a man, something happens where they lose their organization because psychologically they think they are a man up and think they have a lot more time and space to whatever they want.
Yep, definitely. And when you're thinking that, and yet you aren't even able to
touch the ball for minutes at a time because your nine-player opponent is playing keepaway and is psychologically pantsing you, that's when the frustration kicks in.
For those looking to watch games today involving Western or Northern teams that could have national implications, UT Dallas at Christopher Newport might be worth a look. CN is 4-1 and just beat #23 Covenant. Their only blemish was to upstart Clarkson (speaking of which, I knew something positive was going on at Clarkson when I heard they were recruiting a top player in California - doesn't mean they'll get him, but it shows a certain ambition from their young staff that you often see when a program is making a move). UT Dallas came on this Virginia trip off a big win over Trinity, but lost to Virginia Wesleyan in the first game. This is a chance for them to make the trip a success and improve their chances at an NCAA bid if they don't win the automatic bid in the seemingly wide-open SCAC.
OK, so I'm coming down the home stretch (and waiting to see 2-3 results from today's action) as I complete my initial 2022 D3 Fan Poll ballot...and curious to hear thoughts on paradigm philosophies especially when the season is still so very young. Emphasis more on where you think a team falls in your heart of hearts even if they picked up a blemish or unexpected blemish, teams being undefeated even if against just above decent, decent, or less than decent competition, head to head, SoS, etc, etc? Unblemished "mid-major" versus a national fave with an uneven start? A 8-0 team that you don't consider a threat to make a deep run or even make the tournament versus a 2-2-3 heavyweight that you strongly believe will be very much in the mix at the end?
Here's a semi-hypothetical thought experiment....rank the following teams, listed alphabetically...
Amherst, Baldwin-Wallace, Christopher Newport, Clarkson, Cortland St, CWRU, Drew, GAC, F&M, Hamilton, John Carroll, Loras, Luther, Montclair St, MSOE, North Central, Otterbein, Redlands, Rose-Hulman, Rowan, RPI, St Thomas (TX), Trinity (TX), Tufts, UW-Eau Claire, Wesleyan, Western CT, Virginia Wesleyan...
Pick a top 10 or top 5 out of that group...
Associated with this, how do people view Massey Ratings?
Massey can be a useful tool when you use it in combination with other things. Probably shouldn't rely on it as a sole metric, but it has plenty of good uses. It's pretty arbitrary the first month of the season as you see teams jump like 50 spots in one day, but once October rolls around I find to to be decently reliable.
As much as some posters are saying Tufts and Conn aren't (yet) the teams they were last year, I have to say that Washington and Lee isn't either. Tied Emory 2-2 and neither team looked great.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 01:09:10 PM
curious to hear thoughts on paradigm philosophies especially when the season is still so very young. Emphasis more on where you think a team falls in your heart of hearts even if they picked up a blemish or unexpected blemish, teams being undefeated even if against just above decent, decent, or less than decent competition, head to head, SoS, etc, etc? Unblemished "mid-major" versus a national fave with an uneven start? A 8-0 team that you don't consider a threat to make a deep run or even make the tournament versus a 2-2-3 heavyweight that you strongly believe will be very much in the mix at the end?
My ballot will heavily recognize teams that are winning. For example, Conn College at 2-1-1 won't be a top 10 for me at this stage (only winning half their games). Doesn't mean they're not one of the 10 best teams in the country (yet to be seen), but they're not getting a top 10 ranking from me yet. Also, teams that I've seen in person that may have a good record but simply didn't impress me will also not rank high (i.e. F&M). With that said, my week-to-week rankings swing wildly. I'm not afraid to drop a team significantly after a loss, or bump a team up that had a really good win.
Quote from: Another Mom on September 18, 2022, 05:12:47 PM
As much as some posters are saying Tufts and Conn aren't (yet) the teams they were last year, I have to say that Washington and Lee isn't either. Tied Emory 2-2 and neither team looked great.
I watched the Messiah and Washington & Lee game earlier this year in person and was left wondering, "Were Messiah that good or were W&L that poor?"
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on September 18, 2022, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on September 18, 2022, 05:12:47 PM
As much as some posters are saying Tufts and Conn aren't (yet) the teams they were last year, I have to say that Washington and Lee isn't either. Tied Emory 2-2 and neither team looked great.
I watched the Messiah and Washington & Lee game earlier this year in person and was left wondering, "Were Messiah that good or were W&L that poor?"
I would say Messiah was that good. But also W&L played their worst by far during that game. They looked to have regained last year's form against Oglethorpe a couple of days ago, but have backslid today.
Are the Massey Ratings website working? Mine won't load but maybe just a glitch. Will try later :D
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
Not sure where you're getting that from. In general there is continual gushing over NESCAC. You quoted me so don't know if you're suggesting I've been disrespectful.. At the outset of season I said four NESCACs should be in the top 10, and I just submitted my ballot for the fan poll last night and had SIX NESCACs in my top 19. Probably could have added a 7th but that did seem over the top.
Addendum: Btw, knowing that you are a Wesleyan supporter, out of the six NESCACs I ranked my highest ranking went to....Wesleyan.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
Not sure where you're getting that from. In general there is continual gushing over NESCAC. You quoted me so don't know if you're suggesting I've been disrespectful.. At the outset of season I said four NESCACs should be in the top 10, and I just submitted my ballot for the fan poll last night and had SIX NESCACs in my top 19. Probably could have added a 7th but that did seem over the top.
Should not have quoted you. Generally speaking that's the feeling I got over the past couple of years. I'm guessing I'm still sore from last year's denial of a birth for Wesleyan, which obviously has nothing to do with you.
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 10:30:51 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
Not sure where you're getting that from. In general there is continual gushing over NESCAC. You quoted me so don't know if you're suggesting I've been disrespectful.. At the outset of season I said four NESCACs should be in the top 10, and I just submitted my ballot for the fan poll last night and had SIX NESCACs in my top 19. Probably could have added a 7th but that did seem over the top.
Should not have quoted you. Generally speaking that's the feeling I got over the past couple of years. I'm guessing I'm still sore from last year's denial of a birth for Wesleyan, which obviously has nothing to do with you.
Yup, see addendum above....and I strongly agreed last year that Wesleyan deserved a bid.
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules. Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule. That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference. In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end. It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams. I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.
^ This, precisely.
The notion that the NESCAC isn't given its due around here borders upon absurdity. Anyone and everyone who follows D3 men's soccer knows that the NESCAC is the premier circuit in the country, with both the overall tournament performance and the hardware over the past decade to back that up. That truth is clearly reflected in the posts on this board. But, as Kuiper said, right now the tenor of conversation reflects the fact that most of the interesting non-conference action is taking place elsewhere.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 19, 2022, 12:18:54 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules. Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule. That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference. In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end. It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams. I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.
Fair enough and appreciate your perspective. Makes sense.
A true NESCAC expert should chime in but I think there are a number of points about NESCAC non-conference scheduling.
Some will immediately cite the week later season start which has been noted in discussions about why these teams don't do bigger intersectional games or invite more intersectional teams to come to them. For instance, Denison came and played Springfield and Brandeis. Could Denison have gotten a game with a NESCAC? IDK, or maybe a team like Denison couldn't make a New England trip the 2nd week of their season to fit with first week of NESCAC.
In addition to the later start NESCACs also play less total games.
Another thing is NESCAC having 11 members, so that's already 10 tough to very tough games (maybe some years at least 8-9 tough games). Babson for instance only has to schedule 7 conference games which leaves a lot of room and to Babson's credit they went to Jersey for two games and very ambitiously scheduled Brandeis, Williams, Amherst, Tufts, and Conn Coll. That's a monster schedule but the NEWMAC also seems to be down some. Like Tufts' first game was MIT, and usually in recent years that would have been considered strong scheduling at least locally.
As Kuiper suggested, many of these NESCACs don't need huge non-conference games because they already will enjoy some of the highest SoSs nationally so they are protected there.
Another thing is geography...the Maine schools are at a real disadvantage although I would argue they could at play Brandeis, Babson, Wheaton, etc but there's only so many NESCACs that a Babson, Brandeis, or WPI can play in one season. I don't think geography is a great excuse for the other NESCACs, however. The three Connecticut schools could play NYU and Jersey teams and also probably some eastern NY State teams. Hamilton has plenty of teams to play. Williams and Amherst could, and sometimes do, play Skidmore, Vassar, RPI, and maybe a couple of SUNYACs. Midd definitely could have a stronger non-conference by playing some of those cited, including Plattsburgh and I'm not sure exactly how far SLU is.
Here's an odd one and my gut reaction is that it's not a good idea but maybe it is....Hamilton appears to be playing Oneonta St as their last game of the season. After going through the NESCAC gauntlet is Oneonta who you want to be playing going into the NESCAC tournament?
Anyway, at a minimum I do think NESCACs could more frequently schedule some NJAC, SUNYAC, LL matches.
One final point...while it's totally fair to say that for the first couple of weeks attention goes to many of the wonderful intersectional non-conference clashes, it's also seems fair to not overly punish (poll-wise) the NESCACs for starting 1-0-1, 2-0-2, 1-1, or 2-1, especially if those blemishes are against each other.
In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind? What conference would be next? Thanks.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 19, 2022, 12:18:54 PM
Quote from: SlideTackle on September 19, 2022, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 18, 2022, 05:35:22 PM
Yeah, for me, I think you have to factor in level of competition to some degree. Last year I chafed at Chicago maintaining a fairly high ranking with 5 losses but I later accepted the reasoning. Also some of these top teams have been playing each other. Like as much as I love the Eau Claire story I can't put them ahead of Conn or Tufts or maybe even Montclair, Rowan, Cortland, etc. I wouldn't have dinged Conn much for the draw with Tufts but I will a bit for the home Bowdoin loss, and the latter may well keep Conn out of my top 10-12 and I'm guessing mid to late teens for the NESCAC group.
I will repeat that imo Messiah, North Park, and Chicago are the clear top 3 at the moment. The next group for me like Calvin, Kenyon, W&L, Hopkins, Oneonta, along with the NESCAC group, to varying degrees have not looked great but I do think most will be there in the end. I also will rate teams like Stevens and Pac Lutheran (assuming the Lutes handle Willamette today) highly, but I can't quite pull the trigger on bumping them up (yet) beyond the 8-12 range.
Respectfully, feels to me that NESCAC is not being given its due. As some have mentioned, Conn brings back pretty much the same team from last year and by the looks of their roster filled up with a bunch of talent. It's quite a rare occurrence for an out of conference team to get a W against a NESCAC team and come the tournament the NESCAC teams have dominated the last several years - three out of the four NESCAC teams that got invited made the final 8 last year. Wesleyan just beat Brandeis 3-0 and Hamilton beat Ithaca College (not having a good year) 3-0. To me it seems that NESCAC is just getting stronger with better talent, resulting in more parity. Something to consider is that several teams have very strong 5th year seniors in addition to the 4 recruiting classes that came after them. More talent. Same for other schools but that is my guess for why more parity this year, which is still fairly young.
The thing about NESCAC is that they can get away with playing fairly pedestrian non-conference schedules. Wesleyan- Brandeis might have been the most notable non-conference game and there are a lot of games against teams that will do nothing for strength of schedule. That's because the NESCAC schools can accumulate strength-of-schedule in conference, presumably based on past results and reputation of the teams in the conference. In other conferences, the non-conference results basically seal a team's fate if they don't win their conferences, but in NESCAC they can start a little slower and still be in contention by season's end. It also means that for at least the first couple of weeks of the season, the focus is going to be on the battles between traditional national teams in other conferences rather than on the NESCAC teams. I don't think it's disrespect; rather, it's the recognition that the NESCAC race is just getting started.
I think the NESCAC certainly gets enough due and perhaps even too much attention for those not associated to bear. One thing that I think worth clarifying is that the NESCAC's SOS has nothing to do with past results or reputation. It is a formula used for all DIII teams based on Wins and Losses so the NESCAC teams build up a strong SOS by winning the majority of their out of conference games.
I know in the past we looked into trying to play a big out of conference game but it was difficult to make work. Brandeis already filled that role as a perennial top 10-15 program until their recent downturn. Then logistically we didn't have any open weekends so any marquee matchup would have to take place during the week (not really feasible due to travel) or on the weekend when we already had a NESCAC game creating another double header. Now this year for example Tufts are free October 8th but at that point most other schools are in the middle of conference play and unlikely to be free to travel.
Hopefully this will change because it would have been awesome to go play at Messiah or somewhere like that but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...
https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/
Obviously very new to all of this, but I understood that NESCAC is quite prescriptive about schedules. Not sure if that's just start dates, but whether it extends to travel for non-conference games. I think in some ways it's a shame we don't get to see some "bigger" non-conference games before the tournament, but to be fair, of the two NESCAC games I have seen so far, both were intense and pretty well supported. As an aside, you can overdo the travel too. My son's former West Virginia team plays at Portland tonight, that's a pretty serious time commitment at the expense of study, for a non-conference game.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2022, 04:58:18 PM
Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...
https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/
Like ... kinda sorta ... Fields of Dreams?
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2022, 04:58:18 PM
Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...
https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/
I'm sure there are a ton of beautiful D3 facilities around the country. A few fields I've been on that would make my list include Lynchburg, Roanoke, and Cabrini. Any with a football field or track should be banned.
Trinity in CT has the best grass field I have seen in college, Pingry and Episcopal for high school.
MSOE tied Elmhurst tonight 3-3. Has the clock struck midnight and MSOE's carriage turned into a pumpkin or is Elmhurst better than their average results would suggest?
The former.
Quote from: D3_Slack on September 19, 2022, 04:19:44 PM
In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind? What conference would be next? Thanks.
I feel like this is UAA, but curious if anyone has another contender?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 20, 2022, 09:58:00 AM
Quote from: D3_Slack on September 19, 2022, 04:19:44 PM
In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind? What conference would be next? Thanks.
I feel like this is UAA, but curious if anyone has another contender?
I'm going to agree it's the UAA, and I don't think it's all that close for the next couple conferences. But I'll throw a shout out to the Centennial. There's usually 4 or 5 good teams floating around in there. The NJAC and SUNYAC are pretty brutal most years, but never seem to pay off in the post-season.
For me it's definitely the UAA and imo the gap between NESCAC and UAA is smaller than the gap between UAA and whoever is 3rd, 4th, etc. Biggest difference between the two are that NESCAC is significantly bigger and has a huge trophy advantage, although to be fair, Brandeis and Chicago have had multiple Final 4 appearances in the past decade and Rochester had one. CWRU got to an Elite 8. I think Emory has had one or two Elite 8s.
Quote from: jknezek on September 20, 2022, 10:05:15 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 20, 2022, 09:58:00 AM
Quote from: D3_Slack on September 19, 2022, 04:19:44 PM
In terms of soccer conferences is it the general consensus that it's the NESCAC as a clear #1 and all other conferences behind? What conference would be next? Thanks.
I feel like this is UAA, but curious if anyone has another contender?
I'm going to agree it's the UAA, and I don't think it's all that close for the next couple conferences. But I'll throw a shout out to the Centennial. There's usually 4 or 5 good teams floating around in there. The NJAC and SUNYAC are pretty brutal most years, but never seem to pay off in the post-season.
I'd agree with that assessment. NESCAC, then UAA, then waaay down to the Centennial and everybody else.
As an all-sports guy (I'm the play-by-play broadcaster for nine different sports at NPU, so that's nine different sports whose overall D3 landscapes I try to survey every year), I have to say that men's soccer is really an anomaly for my league, the CCIW. I know that a bunch of my fellow posters here on the soccer boards, and probably lurkers as well, are soccer-only types, so their perspective of the CCIW as a lesser league may be skewed by that. It's actually one of the strongest leagues across the board in all of D3; it's a powerhouse with multiple-ranked teams in any number of sports in a given year. The league has won 58 national championships, although only one in this sport (Wheaton, 1997); Wheaton did win another national title in 1983, but that was as an independent (Wheaton, as well as North Park and North Central, played soccer in the Midwest Metropolitan Soccer Conference at that point, which also included D1 and D2 schools; the CCIW didn't sponsor men's soccer until 1987).
For some reason I haven't quite been able to fathom, men's soccer has never really gotten any traction in the CCIW, apart from Wheaton and North Park (of course), and, to a lesser degree, Carthage, although North Central has been on the rise since Enzo Fuschino left UW-Platteville and took over the NCC program a few years ago. It's not a soccer thing, because CCIW women's soccer has been very successful on the national scene; since the CCIW started sponsoring the sport 25 seasons ago, Wheaton has won three national titles in women's soccer and has been to three other Final Fours, and Illinois Wesleyan has made the Final Four as well. The CCIW has had as many as three teams represent the league in the tourney (on two different occasions), which has never happened in men's soccer. The CCIW has an all-time mark of 73-33-11 (.671) in the D3 women's soccer tournament. It's just a men's soccer thing. I'll figure it out, eventually.
https://masseyratings.com/csoc/ncaa-d3/ratings?c=1
NESCAC
UAA
Centennial
NE W&M ?
Liberty League
SUNAYC
Landmark
NJAC
ODAC
MAC-C
NEWMAC
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on September 20, 2022, 11:48:23 AM
NEWMAC
That's this:
Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 20, 2022, 11:35:57 AM
https://masseyratings.com/csoc/ncaa-d3/ratings?c=1
NESCAC
UAA
Centennial
NE W&M ?
Liberty League
SUNAYC
Landmark
NJAC
ODAC
MAC-C
It's the New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference, aka the NEWMAC.
Massey is always so wonky. Landmark above ODAC AND NJAC?
UW-Eau Claire appears to be on the way to 10-0.
And wondering if it's time to put Stockon on my radar.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 19, 2022, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2022, 04:58:18 PM
Would be interesting to see something similar for D3...
https://www.slamstox.com/en/insights-fun-more-english/top-10-college-soccer-facilities/
Like ... kinda sorta ... Fields of Dreams?
I scratched my head for a day trying to get this reference...and I finally got it. Seriously, you have so much content out there and I don't recall seeing a link on the board. I do vaguely recall you mentioning that you had been touring around various campuses.
Anyway, I do love your new sitcom on Bravo. You're unstoppable and the Emmy is being polished.
And you ghosted me on my joke about you already having a Manhattanville jersey. I thought that was hilarious.
Soccer is such a strange beast....not an endorsement for the associative property. Hamilton jumps front and center from nowhere by a narrow, narrow win at Middlebury...and tonight scores in the 90th minutes literally to nip SUNY-Polytech 1-0.
UWEC 5, Ripon 0 (yeah, I know, Ripon is horrible).
And pulling for Saints Nation!
SLU's field is maybe the most gorgeous in D3 but this Cortland field is impressive too. I had to actually check to make sure it is natural grass.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
SLU's field is maybe the most gorgeous in D3 but this Cortland field is impressive too. I had to actually check to make sure it is natural grass.
Have to say, its a wonderful stadium, having been there. And this is one entertaining game between two very good teams.
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 20, 2022, 08:46:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 20, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
SLU's field is maybe the most gorgeous in D3 but this Cortland field is impressive too. I had to actually check to make sure it is natural grass.
Have to say, its a wonderful stadium, having been there. And this is one entertaining game between two very good teams.
SC.
Have to say each and every time I see the the former SLU #33 play he oozes class.
What a dangerous soccer player.
Cant help but bring you back to yester year Saints or dare I say Saints of Old
Poise like Smooth
Scores like Britts
As tricky as Reps
Brainspeed of Demello and as tenacious as Dede, but all in one player.
The game was a good watch with great commentary.
Saint defense is starting to solidify with Cortland scoring on a freekick (in fairness, there were other goals Dragons should/could have scored, but thats football).
I like both these teams to make it to their respective tournament finals.
Cortland has some extremely dangerous and active players.
Fantastic win for SLU, in part because that game meant a ton to Cortland as well. Always enjoy watching SLU...would be nerve-wracking to be a fan because their style yields a lot of 3-2, 4-3 type games and you're never quite sure if they'll be on top at the end.
What a fascinating game...based on the 20 minutes I watched best of the season so far.
So I started watching and immediately noticed #3 for Calvin...incredible looking athlete and I was thinking wow, they got another great Calvin defender although I guess he's basically started every game since coming on campus 4 years ago. Calvin has Chicago trapped in their own half but Chicago really looks unphased and definitely not panicked as Calvin does what it does, cutting around inside and out, getting to byline, sending dangerous balls through the box, etc, etc. Then #3 tries to get fancy, loses the ball, and earns a yellow imo fully deserved trying to get ball back because he screwed up. The tables turn a little and Chicago gets some possession and then in his own third literally less than 5 minutes later #3 does it again and gets 2nd yellow. Souders flipped out (wrongly imo) the first time and now really loses it. Never seen him looking so unhinged and seems like is is totally fired up and desperate to win this game (which won't surprise if he does even with 10 men against one of top 3 teams in country. Less than 2 minutes in half, Maroons get a corner, and of course the All-American Gillespie scores off the corner. 1-0 Chicago at the half.
Two very, very good teams evenly matched but now Calvin playing with 10. Chicago has size and speed, Calvin has ton of speed and skill. Well, Chicago has skill too but you know what I mean.
Souders though was literally pacing up and down his sideline, almost trying to defend himself, and he was all over the refs for what I thought at a great distance admittedly was totally out of line.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 21, 2022, 07:03:00 PM
Souders though was literally pacing up and down his sideline, almost trying to defend himself, and he was all over the refs for what I thought at a great distance admittedly was totally out of line.
I find his sideline "behavior" totally inappropriate.
SC.
Montclair opens NJAC play with a 1-0 win over previously undefeated NJCU. Not surprisingly, Lukovic with the goal. But the most interesting stat for me....
NJCU had 7 cards (6Y, 1R) on 11 fouls. I guess if you're going to foul, you might as well make it count.
Kenyon womens team took a trip this year to England I believe
Quote from: D3Dad on September 24, 2022, 07:55:08 AM
Kenyon womens team took a trip this year to England I believe
A little bit at a loss for words here....but...sticking very loosely to the NCAC theme, who had the better career (thus far), Paul Newman or Steve Carell?
Quote from: Ejay on September 23, 2022, 10:40:00 PM
Montclair opens NJAC play with a 1-0 win over previously undefeated NJCU. Not surprisingly, Lukovic with the goal. But the most interesting stat for me....
NJCU had 7 cards (6Y, 1R) on 11 fouls. I guess if you're going to foul, you might as well make it count.
Montclair had a red and a few yellows themselves.
Paul Newman Exclusive: Drone view from 50 Feet
Reminiscing around the D3 campfire
As we listen to Simplecoach strum his guitar and belt out some Bob Dylan tunes I'm drifting back to the first half of the 2010s. The Rutgers-Camden Scarlet Raptors burst on to the scene and won four NJAC titles over five years and reached the 2013 national final on an unthinkable Loras misplay of a 60 yard free kick in the 92nd minute of a national semi. In the final Camden scratched and clawed their way into a second OT but could not stop one of the greatest Messiah squads of all time as Josh Wood inside the 18 slotted a little pass to Jeremy Payne (now Whitworth coach) who finished from point-blank range. Camden has been pretty mediocre for the past few years and in 2022 sits at 3-5-1 after back-to-back losses to Alvernia and Immaculata....and Mike Ryan, Mitch Grotti, and D1 transfer Keegan Balle are not walking through that door.
And then there's one of the historic top dogs...the Wheaton (Ill) Thunder. Wheaton was one of the best teams in the country in 2013 and 2014, and rebounded from a disappointing early exit in the NCAA tourney in 2013 to reach the national title match against Tufts in 2014. Alas, a coaching departure seemed the beginning of a downward turn while also dealing with indignity of the emerging North Park machine. Wheaton has been very average for the most past since then and today is 2-3-2 with the best result being a loss....3-2 to Chicago early on. Sorry Thunder fans, Marshall Hollingsworth (D3 soccer Midfielder of the Year), Noah Anthony (one of best left pegs in D3 history), and the Golz brothers are not walking through that door.
Preseason faves foreshadowing a lost season or just head fakes on the road to glory
Every year there is a cadre of disappointing performers based on expectations. This year the pot seems to hold a larger number of characters, but maybe that always seems like the case in the moment.
Broadly speaking, I think the teams in this category fall into two groups...disappointing results in the setting of monster schedules who you dismiss at your own peril. Rowan at 5-3-1 imo is borderline for this group and may be breaking free from it, and then there's also Cortland St at 4-3-2 with a tight loss to SLU and a draw with Potsdam in their last two outings. Both of these teams still feel formidable and I still would be surprised if they aren't in the bracket come selection day.
Very close to (or arguably in) the category above are St Olaf at 4-3, Redlands at 2-1-3 and rival C-M-S at 2-2-4. These teams are in better shape than some because 1) they're good and 2) they likely are going to experience less resistance the rest of the way. The question for the latter two is whether one of those can get a Pool C bid. Usually the answer is NO, but both scheduled very well so maybe their SoS will be better than in some past years.
In the next tier, I've got NYU and Brandeis at 3-2-1, UAA brother Wash at 2-2, Vassar at 4-3, RPI at 2-3-2, RIT at 2-1-5, Rutgers-Newark at 3-3-2, and maybe, maybe MIT at 4-4 (started 1-4 and won last three albeit against middling or less competition).
Finally, my top six disappointments so far in 2022....I'll begin with only surprising but not shocking as I wasn't expecting either to make a run to the Sweet 16...Hope at 1-1-5 and 2019 Final 4 participant, Centre, at a truly dismal 0-5-2. Of the two Centre actually might have the better chance at redemption as Hope almost certainly would have to get through Calvin to win their AQ (and same for 3-4-2 KZoo). There is no obvious heavyweight in the SAA. And then there's Washington College at 1-3-2, Emory at 1-3-4, Trinity (TX) at 1-3-2, and OWU at 0-4-2. Amazingly, these bottom four are probably all capable of stunning turnarounds. Let's just take OWU for example. They're almost certain to pick up two wins heading into the massive Kenyon game at home. OWU is very capable of winning that game and if they do they've got a clear inside track to the #1 seed and home field for the NCAC tournament...as well as picking up an all-important regionally ranked win to go along with what should be a strong SoS.
Legit or pretending
Let's start with Drew. The Rangers clocking Kean 3-0 caught my attention and Drew the rest of the way isn't in a conference where they are likely to be overwhelmed. Same for conference foe Catholic. I'll go more legit than not for both.
Carnegie Mellon...Maybe I've been too harsh. I still haven't overcome CMU beating Muskingum 1-0 on opening day. The Tartans do have an inpressive-looking win over very good John Carroll on a last second GW, but the rest of the schedule, especially for a UAA outfit, has been embarrassingly poor. CMU does get Ohio Northern tomorrow in a decent test although the Polar Bears will be on the second day of a back-to-back, and today they no doubt will expend a ton of energy trying to get a result against seriously underrated Rose-Hulman. CMU will have to win probably at least three UAA games with a draw or two. Can they do that? We'll see.
York (PA) very quietly is 5-0-2 with some decent to good results but nothing that slaps you in the face. They have a chance today versus Rochester.
I think St Thomas (TX) is a handful and legit, and they play at the gorgeous Houston Sport Park which serves as the training grounds for both Houston's MLS and NWSL squads.
I am in wait and see mode on Hamilton, Clarkson, and Gettysburg. Same with still off Doppler Stockton and Sewanee.
I am really pulling for UW-Eau Claire who should be 11-0 heading into tomorrow's clash with Loras. I reluctantly lean towards pretender here but a win over Loras might change my mind. I'm not ready to entirely write off MSOE, but I don't have faith in Baldwin-Wallace, Augsburg, Hampden-Sydney (who just lost to Randolph-Macon), Randolph-Macon (who just beat Hampden-Sydney), McDaniel, or Augsburg...the latter streaking to a 9-0 record last year only to finish 12-6-1. New friend Emerson will find out something today against Babson.
Teams to watch hidden in the pack and/or who tend to be ignored
First, a surprise name...Williams...D3 is better when Williams is good, and the Ephs might be good. Others are CWRU, John Carroll, SLU, York (PA), Stockton, Birmingham-Southern (quick, name the only other Alabama D3), Otterbein, Rose-Hulman, St John's (MN), Swat, Catholic, Scranton, Willamette, Sewanee, Gettysburg, Lynchburg, Ohio Northern, definitely Mary Washington and Luther, Virginia Wesleyan, Babson, Skidmore, WPI, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and New Paltz.
Alabama D3 = Huntingdon in Montgomery. But ai live down here so it's cheating
Quote from: jknezek on September 24, 2022, 02:47:50 PM
Alabama D3 = Huntingdon in Montgomery. But ai live down here so it's cheating
Yeah, you should have recused yourself, lol.
The only two people I can think of who
might have gotten it in under 60 secs without a phone or computer would be Christan Shirk and Sager. Other good ones are Louisiana and Mississippi.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2022, 07:21:46 PM
Quote from: jknezek on September 24, 2022, 02:47:50 PM
Alabama D3 = Huntingdon in Montgomery. But ai live down here so it's cheating
Yeah, you should have recused yourself, lol.
The only two people I can think of who might have gotten it in under 60 secs without a phone or computer would be Christan Shirk and Sager. Other good ones are Louisiana and Mississippi.
Eh, anyone who also follows football would have gotten it. Huntingdon has been top of the USASAC in football since they joined. I had a coworker that played at Huntingdon in the late 80s early 90s when I think they were D1, or maybe the top tier of NAIA.
Calvin @ JCU is another fantastic game. Now 1-1 deep in the 2nd. I know no one is supposed to say anything even mildly negative about Calvin but they've had some very bad fouls...just get the sense that the Knights are almost desperate to win and maybe a touch entitled about winning a national title after so many near misses.
Great game. Sweet 16 intensity. After JCU equalized they had multiple excellent chances to go ahead and then concede late off a deep throw. JCU outplayed Calvin in the 2nd half. Apparently Akintade had some kind of injury and did not return after beuing subbed in 1st half.
JCU announcers are really good and beyond fair. The lead guy criticizes their own fans and calls everything totally both ways. They do need to get rid of that PIP in the corner that obstructs the view.
Wow. The defending champs with virtually their entire team back draws at home with Wheaton (MA), 2-2. And on his return Conn's star CB picks up what looks like was a straight red in the 89th minute after Wheaton drew level maybe a minute or two before.
Keep on eye on Babson at Tufts at 7:00 (huge game for both) and Sewanee at Covenant also I believe at 7:00.
Sweet free kick from Wheaton that led to the tying goal . As a newby not super impressed by conn college or tufts this year , but I do like the way babson plays some skilled players there ,
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
LOL. Good stuff!
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
That was fun. Enjoyed hearing about St. Joseph's (ME)'s 57 game winning streak in-conference, although that makes me think they should have moved conferences at some point! Has there been a team with a more dominant streak in a conference?
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
That was fun. Enjoyed hearing about St. Joseph's (ME)'s 57 game winning streak in-conference, although that makes me think they should have moved conferences at some point! Has there been a team with a more dominant streak in a conference?
Amherst had something very similar and I'm sure Messiah has as well.
New Jersey City beat Rowan 6-0? Anyone have intel here?
NJCU quietly reached 5-0-0 against a very soft schedule with a few postponed games. Then, this past Friday, they got dominated by Montclair State even if only losing 1-0. So it seemed like that was that and there wouldn't be any reason to pay attention to the Golden Knights moving forward. But they beat Rowan 6-0 tonight. And Rowan had all but maybe two starters. NJCU scored 3 goals in 4 minutes midway thru the 1st Half to add to their early 1-0 lead, then added 2 goals in the final 3 minutes of the game. Can they get a result against Rutgers-Camden this weekend?
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
That was fun. Enjoyed hearing about St. Joseph's (ME)'s 57 game winning streak in-conference, although that makes me think they should have moved conferences at some point! Has there been a team with a more dominant streak in a conference?
Wasn't able to listen all the way through, but enjoyed the convo all the same!
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
In case you aren't following the incredible posting over in the Mid-Atlantic thread (kidding), Carnegie put the wood to Juniata in P'burg tonight... 5-2. I know the Tartans have had some doubters, and this won't completely squash that, but Juniata was 6-3 coming in, so not exactly chopped liver. But, as I stated over there, they'd been roundly defeated by some "OK" teams so far, so... this result just builds the narrative/reality for both squads.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
Hard to imagine anyone not putting Chicago #1 next week after a 3-0 victory over North Park on a Yetishevsky hat trick. That defense AND an in-form striker? Sheesh.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 10:30:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
Hard to imagine anyone not putting Chicago #1 next week after a 3-0 victory over North Park on a Yetishevsky hat trick. That defense AND an in-form striker? Sheesh.
Chicago is fantastic...I enjoy watching them. There are two teams by themselves...the Maroons and Messiah. If you're a neutral that's your national final dream game as of today. And out of the next 10 teams one of the only ones I would have confidence in beating either? Calvin.
It was the men against the boys tonight. Chicago is bigger and was much quicker to the ball, and the Maroons played with savvy and purpose that the Vikings clearly lacked. The Messiah people are going to protest, but from where I'm sitting the Maroons are the clear #1 in the nation at this point. I've said all along that they'll go as far as their dynamic duo at CB will take them, but I may have to reassess that after watching Ryan Yetishevsky dismantle the NPU defense tonight. He is a beast.
NPU will be fine. The Vikings played like a team of freshmen and sophomores who hadn't really been tested thus far this season, which is exactly what they were. The first goal really rattled them, and they were never the same from that point onward, while Chicago did what good teams do -- finish off an opponent once you've bloodied their mouth.
Now the Vikings can put the ranking stuff out of their minds. They've clearly seen that there's a wider gap between them and the top of the heap than they'd thought, and they're going to have to considerably up their work rate and clean up their mistakes against good opponents in order to close that gap.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 06:12:52 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
That was fun. Enjoyed hearing about St. Joseph's (ME)'s 57 game winning streak in-conference, although that makes me think they should have moved conferences at some point! Has there been a team with a more dominant streak in a conference?
Amherst had something very similar and I'm sure Messiah has as well.
St. Scholastica (UMAC) holds the record for most consecutive conference wins:
69 (incl. conf. tournament) - Sept. 11, 2012 to Nov. 5, 2016
75 (regular season) - Oct. 1, 2011 to Oct. 11, 2017
St. Scholastica (UMAC) also holds the record for most consecutive conference games without a loss:
118 (incl. conf. tournament) - Oct. 4, 2009 to Oct. 7, 2017
102 (regular season) - Oct. 4, 2009 to Oct. 7, 2017
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
This kid sounds amazing. Double major in Molecular (Bio)Engineering (B.S) and Chemistry (B.A.). Has won 6 club state championships in 3 different states and spends his summer woodworking in Maine.
Quote from: Ejay on September 29, 2022, 07:44:28 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
This kid sounds amazing. Double major in Molecular (Bio)Engineering (B.S) and Chemistry (B.A.). Has won 6 club state championships in 3 different states and spends his summer woodworking in Maine.
Damn! amazingly multitalented!
Is he Ron Swanson's love child? Wood working in ME??
Gonna try and watch some clips of this kid this week. If I see him eating a platter of bacon pre-game, the jig is up.
Quote from: Ejay on September 29, 2022, 07:44:28 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
This kid sounds amazing. Double major in Molecular (Bio)Engineering (B.S) and Chemistry (B.A.). Has won 6 club state championships in 3 different states and spends his summer woodworking in Maine.
I love kids like this who are in a tier of their own and beyond most of us feeling any need for even a hint of envy. Many of us think we have smart, talented kids, and we do, but as SOL likes to say, there are tiers. He probably finished up a lab project and wrote an essay on Tolstoy's early period after the game last night. Kids like this can pop up from a ton of schools, but they certainly seem to congregrate at places like Chicago, Hopkins, Wash U, Swat, etc. In 20 years he'll be in the operating room quietly demanding "laser scalpel, please" and while in the middle of brain surgery someone will ask "Dr. Y, did you play any sports in college," and with genuine modesty he'll respond "I played a little soccer for a minute" while having a half-second flash to his "hatty" against North Park before instructing "OK, let's close him up."
Speaking of the super-talented, MIT lost to Suffolk last night. NEWMAC brothers Babson and Wheaton draw with Tufts and Conn College, respectively....and MIT loses to Suffolk....3-0.
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on September 28, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
If anyone cares to learn more about the genius of @PaulNewman, check out the New Show that was hatched literally during the discussion. It was supposed to be a segment in Around D3 but it was too good, so my production team, CMO, CSO, and CDO all agreed in starting a show.
The New Show (https://youtu.be/30QLg_INRSo)
That was fun. Enjoyed hearing about St. Joseph's (ME)'s 57 game winning streak in-conference, although that makes me think they should have moved conferences at some point! Has there been a team with a more dominant streak in a conference?
My kid played at St. Joe's for the beginning of that streak and it was a lot of fun. Even though the Monks won all of those games, I wouldn't really say they were completely dominant - their battles with Norwich and Johnson & Wales were really good. At one point Norwich & St. Joe's played to 3 straight 0-0 ties with one of those going to PKs to send St. Joe's to the NCAA tournament where St. Joe's and Babson went to PKs at 0-0 and my son hit the winning PK to advance St. Joe's to the second round for the first time ever. Good times!
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on September 28, 2022, 10:30:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2022, 09:53:53 PM
Welp...I guess Yetishevsky is healthy.
Hard to imagine anyone not putting Chicago #1 next week after a 3-0 victory over North Park on a Yetishevsky hat trick. That defense AND an in-form striker? Sheesh.
Chicago is fantastic...I enjoy watching them. There are two teams by themselves...the Maroons and Messiah. If you're a neutral that's your national final dream game as of today. And out of the next 10 teams one of the only ones I would have confidence in beating either? Calvin.
I agree on your Calvin point for sure. They played down a man most of that UChicago game and still almost got a tie out of it.
The UChicago vs. North Park was a huge game for regional ranking purposes, as well as a great measuring stick for both teams. Heading into the match, I was feeling pessimistic about UChicago's chances to win, and thought a tie would be be a good result as well. Watching the game in-person, you could see both teams were immensely talented in terms of dribbling and fending off challenges, and they were pressing each other all over the field. UChicago had the better chances in the first half, including a close-in sitter off a corner kick that skied over the cross bar.
The Maroons stayed poised throughout and demonstrated exactly what they needed to show. The defense had very few lapses, and blocked almost every dangerous ball that headed towards the net. Boyes only needed to make 1 save. But this was nothing new: we all know how good the Maroons are defensively.
The offense is what really impressed me in the second half. The Maroons are superb front-runners: once they go up a goal, the whole tenor of the match changes. Teams have to change whatever initial plans they had and are forced to press up more. And that's where UChicago thrives: they make you pay for every subsequent over-extension. Their counter attack last night was lethal.
Yetishefsky isn't on the level with UChicago legends like Lopez or Koh (who was in attendance at the game along with Capotosto). But if he keeps submitting performances like he did last night, he could well join them. Yeti has the exact attributes UChicago needs at striker: he's good size (6-1), built like a brick wall, his straight-line speed is surprisingly fast, and his feel with the ball at his feet is exceptional. His third goal saw him juke his defender hard to set up the right foot. Earlier in the half, yeti literally dusted his man who was hanging on to him straight into the turf.
UAA play is about to begin, and UChicago has a gauntlet ahead of them. Teams have to decide: are you going to play them straight up or are you gonna put 11 behind the ball. I foresee plenty of ties coming for all the UAA teams. Asking the Maroons to go undefeated is likely too much to ask, even if they are the best team in the league. It only takes one bad bounce to put 1 in the loss column. It will all come down to how consistent the offensive unit will be.
And the Sewanee Tigers now 8-1.
So since naming five under the radar teams....
Otterbein and Sewanee won. North Central, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and Ohio Northern all had draws.
Speaking of draws, North Central's opponent, Aurora, is 3-1-5...with two of their five draws Calvin and North Central.
Just because....
Most D3 schools by state...and I could be off by one here and there but it's close...
New York = 64
Pennsylvania = 58
Massachusetts = 36
Illinois and Ohio (tied) = 22
Minnesota and Wisconsin (tied) = 17
Texas and Virginia (tied) = 16
New Jersey = 15
Maine = 11
Iowa = 10
California, Connecticut, Oregon/Washington combined (tie) = 9
and hence the reason why so many west coast/California kids look east for the academic/high academic D3s.
Quote from: jfreddys on October 01, 2022, 01:39:19 PM
and hence the reason why so many west coast/California kids look east for the academic/high academic D3s.
This is true. The best high academic D3s are Pomona-Pitzer and Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, which are both arguably top ten among small liberal arts colleges. Occidental and maybe Chapman are probably the next closest. After that, there's a pretty big drop off in SoCal in part because there simply aren't many small liberal arts colleges in the West, let alone ones with decent academic profiles. Lewis & Clark and Willamette are top 100 liberal arts colleges with soccer in the Northwest. UC Santa Cruz is a good school, but it's a big state school that doesn't appeal to the same type of student.
But the other reason so many kids from CA get recruited for D3s elsewhere is there are so many kids in CA. I've said before on other threads that it's one of the top feeder states for most nationally-minded D3s for their student bodies generally. Plenty of schools you wouldn't think of have admissions staff either based in Los Angeles or who travel here so much they might as well.
Reed is a nice school but they don't seem to play?
Quote from: camosfan on October 02, 2022, 12:25:03 PM
Reed is a nice school but they don't seem to play?
Reed is a great school for the right type of kid, but they only have club soccer. In fact, they don't have any varsity sports.
Quote from: Kuiper on October 02, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: camosfan on October 02, 2022, 12:25:03 PM
Reed is a nice school but they don't seem to play?
Reed is a great school for the right type of kid, but they only have club soccer. In fact, they don't have any varsity sports.
That's the same Reed that doesn't participate in the USA News Today academic rankings either, from memory. Not saying that's good or bad by the way, but they clearly have their way of doing things.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 02, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 02, 2022, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: camosfan on October 02, 2022, 12:25:03 PM
Reed is a nice school but they don't seem to play?
Reed is a great school for the right type of kid, but they only have club soccer. In fact, they don't have any varsity sports.
That's the same Reed that doesn't participate in the USA News Today academic rankings either, from memory. Not saying that's good or bad by the way, but they clearly have their way of doing things.
Correct. Reed stopped answering the US News questionnaires in 1995 or 1996 after deciding that colleges were manipulating the data. They are still ranked on publicly available data and reputation surveys, but the consensus is that they are typically under-ranked, presumably because they are ranked at the bottom on certain measures for which they don't provide info.
Reed is very much focused on de-emphasizing traditional American elitist trappings, including varsity sports and Greek life. They also have a unique approach to evaluating students, which results in not giving out or focusing on letter grading. Unless you dip below a C on a paper or in a class, grades aren't given out or shared with students.
VERY unique place.
What, no Deep Springs mention?
Gotta admit I didn't see Reed as a possible hidden solution to the dearth of elite West Coast D3 soccer options landing on my Sunday bingo card!
Upset alerts in Walla Walla and Whitewater...both 2-2 with Willamette @ Whitman late in the 2nd.
Update...early 2nd UWW leads 3-2 over GAC.
Welp...looks like the Whitman live stats were not reliable. Willamette Bearcats win 3-2. They were up 2-0, Whitman leveled with about 16 to go and apparently Willamette went ahead again a minute or two later. Gorgeous field in Walla Walla but the woods surrounding the field made me think an Elk or Grizzly would be running on to the pitch at any moment.
Tufts, Amherst and Conn College all look a little sluggish out of the gate. They have to be behind the top 5 or 10 at a minimum right? Has anyone watched them closely to give more perspective on the level compared to previous years or compared to others this year like Messiah, Chicago, etc?
There seems to be a drop from all 3 compared to the "norm" and standard we hold these programs to. Any thoughts to this?
My son plays at Tufts and I am glad they have already played both Conn College and Amherst, these teams are not going to go out without serious fight for the remainder of the season.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 03, 2022, 01:46:51 PM
Tufts, Amherst and Conn College all look a little sluggish out of the gate. They have to be behind the top 5 or 10 at a minimum right? Has anyone watched them closely to give more perspective on the level compared to previous years or compared to others this year like Messiah, Chicago, etc?
There seems to be a drop from all 3 compared to the "norm" and standard we hold these programs to. Any thoughts to this?
Amherst, Tufts and Williams have each drawn three conference games this season, not exactly bad form, but of course, not quite as successful as Hamilton or Wesleyan. This is my first year of properly watching NESCAC and it has typically felt pretty even to me most weeks. I can really only speak about Amherst and even then, not with in depth knowledge other than to say that a pretty special forward graduated, along with some quality seniors. All colleges find these gaps challenging to fill and of course, it's the second half of the season where we will start to get a better idea about which NESCAC teams are in fact the creamier ones rising to the top. I am not sure if slow out of the gate is fair, the reality is that any one of those three teams could have turned those 3 draws into 3 wins and we would be probably(well perhaps through gritted teeth for the NESCAC haters) discussing that team in the same breathe as Messiah or Chicago. I know the switch away from OT hasn't been well received, but I have respect for the teams that get their business done inside the 90 minutes. Right now Massey ranks Messiah and Chicago at the top and has four NESCAC teams in the top 10, presumably reflecting strength of schedule results given the draws in some cases. I can't tell you if that's truly fair, but I do know that Amherst beat what I thought was a pretty impressive Babson team (15 right now on Massey) and in terms of pure football, the Beavers played the most attractive that I saw on my travels. Despite that, the Mammoths won 3-1, perhaps flattering by a goal, but an indication of what they can do when they put their minds to it. I will be looking for more of that over the weeks ahead.
Thanks for the insight Camosfan and Enmorecat! I will have to watch some NESCAC games over the next couple of weeks and take a look. Obviously the "norm" I am referring to is winning national championships so I hope my ask was seen as a compliment rather than a knock ;D
On an other thread someone mentioned that Tufts entered NCAAs with a 9-5-2 record and mainly unranked throughout the season before winning the title back in 2016 (I think), so maybe I am jumping the gun based on records thus far!
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 04, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
On an other thread someone mentioned that Tufts entered NCAAs with a 9-5-2 record and mainly unranked throughout the season before winning the title back in 2016 (I think), so maybe I am jumping the gun based on records thus far!
Tournament time all bets are off. I am guessing that the team with the deepest experienced bench has an advantage especially since teams have to play back-to-back games on back-to-back weekends and the season is so incredibly compressed. Still stunned how NCAA soccer plays so many games with very, very little time between over a 2 month period. So much science behind one game every 6 or 7 games. Instead they play one game every 3 or 4 days over most of the season.
So coaches which have subs play substantial time during the season may have an advantage with injuries of key players.
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
Quote from: Kuiper on October 04, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
Disappointed for sure but if you didn't know OWU's record most would think it was an OK result. Tale of two halves, as OWU appeared to want it more in 1st half and had a couple of excellent chances and honestly should have scored on at least one. They had another in the 2nd half that Jaggar just missed wide...the kind of ball he usually would bury. Brown must have lit into the Owls as after OWU led shots 9-3 at the half, Kenyon dominated the 2nd and shots were 16-1, I think. GK for OWU made a couple of fantastic saves. I'm sure OWU desperately wanted the win but it is also was very important for them not to take another loss. They've got to be one of the best 3-4-3 teams in D3 history and I expect OWU to probably run the table and we'll likely see these two again at least once. The Guerra kid is special. Kenyon had a hard time dealing with him, but except for some odd, broken plays where OWU landed on an opening I thought the Kenyon CBs had a very good game. Got got very chippy with players on both teams on the ground numerous times per usual. Martinez clearly injured as he came out after 6 minutes and never returned and a few other Kenyon guys who would be playing also are out (but who doesn't have some injuries). Kenyon maintains their string of not losing to OWU since that day in 2014 when I was devastated and in tears. Away at Wabash is next and historically that has been a very difficult game for Kenyon.
Quote from: Kuiper on October 04, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
And we're on upset alert with UWEC down 1-0 to Augsburg 58 min in...
I'm very surprised by the Wesleyan result.
Conn Coll only gets by ECSU 1-0.
If the score up is right, did not see Union beating Plattsburgh 3-0.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 04, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 04, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
And we're on upset alert with UWEC down 1-0 to Augsburg 58 min in...
I'm very surprised by the Wesleyan result.
Conn Coll only gets by ECSU 1-0.
If the score up is right, did not see Union beating Plattsburgh 3-0.
Upset complete: Augsburg beats University of Wisconsin Eau Claire 1-0
Quote from: Kuiper on October 05, 2022, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 04, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 04, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
And we're on upset alert with UWEC down 1-0 to Augsburg 58 min in...
I'm very surprised by the Wesleyan result.
Conn Coll only gets by ECSU 1-0.
If the score up is right, did not see Union beating Plattsburgh 3-0.
Upset complete: Augsburg beats University of Wisconsin Eau Claire 1-0
Why is it that every time I try to make a bold statement in my Top 25.... this sort of thing happens?
A little followup from last night.
I think Dr. Martin's post-game quote was right on the money for OWU-Kenyon...
"This was a good game against a good team," said Bishop head coach Jay Martin. "(Defender) Charlie Riddle was our man of the match. As they say in England, it was a game of two halves. We were the better team in the first half, and they were the better team in the second half. Overall, it was a pretty good result against a pretty good team."
Iirc from Martin's preseason interview with SC he was very confident that he had a very good team (and I presume he was saying that knowing that Hector G was not returning). Anyway, similar to the current little NESCAC debate, it's fair to bet that OWU is really down this year and not very good and so by extension Kenyon must not be that good. It's a fair bet but it's not a bet I'm going to make (at least the first part of that). Doesn't mean I'm going to put OWU in my top 25 anytime soon, but I also am not gonna bet that there isn't a 65/35 chance OWU will find a way to make the tournament. As for Kenyon I don't think any big questions got answered, but I am bouyed by the Owls changing gears against a good team desperate to win on their home field to dominate the 2nd half. I'd be more worried if they had not shown the ability to flip the game.
I'm also not gonna overreact to last night's surprising results with Wesleyan losing to CG and Conn apparently really struggling with ECSU. I read the recaps and these two games which happened simultaneously less than a half-mile from each other were played under nearly unplayable conditions...drenching rain and high winds. Certainly Wesleyan has some questions to answer after losing 1-0 at home to Midd in a game CSO said the Midd GK stole and now this game. And next is AT Amherst. Conn next is AT Williams and AT Middlebury.
Hopkins and SC, I truly hope you guys are right or on to something with NESCAC this year. I saw the Kirby Smart clip and had the same reaction, but I did not conclude based on the weak performance vs Mizzou that Georgia "isn't who we thought they were." It's an interesting argument that the NESCAC is down right after they've had an unprecedented EIGHT different teams in the top 25 so far (and that's not usual). Sure, I dropped Conn and Tufts from my top 25 and I never had Williams in yet, but, Conn and Tufts at least don't care about at all whether they're ranked or not. Their only worry is whether they can make the tournament. There IS reason to worry because of out of their top eight teams, it is likely that 2-4 of them will not make the tournament. It's one thing to legitimately endorse the possibility that NESCAC is down, but does that mean you're willing to bet today that at least two NESCAC teams won't make the Elite 8 and none will get to the Final 4? I'm not going there if only to protect myself from the pain I'll feel when I see it happen (yet) again.
All that said, I am rooting hard for the victor this year to come from outside NESCAC...obviously I'm a Kenyon fan, but I would far rather Hopkins, W&L, Stevens, Chicago, GAC, and basically anyone other than a NESCAC or Messiah or Calvin lift the trophy.
Here's the thing for me. Soccer is a chancy game. Because scoring is so low, losing close or tieing a weaker team is a common occurrence. A good team can reasonably expect it to happen once or twice a season. Sometimes it doesn't, but over a long season with short rest and lots of buses and D3 atmospheres, especially, it typically happens. So I don't much worry about it.
BUT I do count the blemishes. One or two? Sure. Three or four... not as dominant as I thought. 5 or 6? Something might be off. Now is this always the case? Of course not. Tufts in the past, Chicago just last year, and many more have great postseasons after blemish filled seasons for whatever reason. But when I'm trying to sort out the Top 10 or 25 teams in the country, winning is important. SoS is important too in context of that winning, but really, great teams tend to win. Good teams get caught out by whims of soccer more regularly.
With the NESCAC this year, its one of two things. Either you think they have 7 or 8 of the top 15 teams in the country, since they can't sort themselves out, or you think they have 2 or 3 of the Top 25, probably sitting between 5 and 15, and 5 or 6 more that are in the 25-50 range.
But in the end, none of it matters, thankfully. Since we have a post-season tournament to figure it out.
@jknezek, I agree with all of that except for maybe your estimate scenarios, and I assume we're agreeing that who we might vote for in a poll 1-15 or 20 is not necessarily who would say in our heart of hearts are the best 15-20 teams. For instance, I am voting in some teams in my poll vote that I would not pick head to head with some teams below them, but results (and blemishes) demand something different of a poll voter (I think) than an assessment of who, records aside, are the best or most formidable teams. As for my estimate of the NESCACs, I'd probably say in the end there will be three (not sure which ones yet) in the top 15 or so and 5 within the top 25 and then another two to three in the top 35-40.
NESCAC and the UAA have a UAA-NESCAC challenge in basketball this year and presumably beyond. It would be nice if this could be replicated in soccer moving forward. Of course, basketball has semester/vacation breaks making it easier to fit in the travel to pull it off.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 05, 2022, 07:13:55 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 05, 2022, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 04, 2022, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 04, 2022, 09:19:38 PM
I guess all bets are off when rivals play, as Ohio Wesleyan ends Kenyon's 9 game winning streak to secure a 0-0 tie.
And we're on upset alert with UWEC down 1-0 to Augsburg 58 min in...
I'm very surprised by the Wesleyan result.
Conn Coll only gets by ECSU 1-0.
If the score up is right, did not see Union beating Plattsburgh 3-0.
Upset complete: Augsburg beats University of Wisconsin Eau Claire 1-0
Why is it that every time I try to make a bold statement in my Top 25.... this sort of thing happens?
I'm not the slightest bit surprised that UW-Eau Claire lost. The #235 SOS rating that the Blugolds have on Massey is no mirage. Having seen a bit of them in action, I knew that the Blugolds certainly play respectable soccer, but I also knew that sooner or later they'd run into a team good enough to expose them as pretenders. What surprises me is that they got exposed a game earlier than I thought would happen. I was sure it would be St. Olaf who would hang the first L on the Blugolds tomorrow night in Northfield. As it turns out, Augsburg -- another team with a gaudy record and an SOS rating well up in the 200s -- got to UWEC first.
Don't get me wrong, UWEC is a great story: second-year program; born into orphanhood because most WIAC schools won't field a men's soccer team for budget and/or Title IX reasons; located well off the beaten path as far as D3 men's soccer national interest is concerned -- and yet the Blugolds run out of the starting gate on an absolute tear and get all the way into October before they finally falter. But, honestly speaking, that's not really the pedigree of a Top 25 team. Thirty or even twenty years ago? Sure. But not in 2022.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:41:22 AM
@jknezek, I agree with all of that except for maybe your estimate scenarios, and I assume we're agreeing that who we might vote for in a poll 1-15 or 20 is not necessarily who would say in our heart of hearts are the best 15-20 teams. For instance, I am voting in some teams in my poll vote that I would not pick head to head with some teams below them, but results (and blemishes) demand something different of a poll voter (I think) than an assessment of who, records aside, are the best or most formidable teams. As for my estimate of the NESCACs, I'd probably say in the end there will be three (not sure which ones yet) in the top 15 or so and 5 within the top 25 and then another two to three in the top 35-40.
^^^ You've said things to this effect before, and then as now I don't get it. Standings must reflect results (wins, ties, and losses) by definition. But a poll is, by definition, an opinion; it is subjective; it can take into account so many factors, like SoS, performance not just result, etc. as well as gut-feeling. What is the purpose of a ranking if not to present who are the best teams, or, more precisely, who are thought/considered to be the best teams? If on their ballots, voters are placing teams they think are better below other teams who they think are inferior on the basis of W-L-T records, then I'm not sure what's the point? I'm not saying that one should be trying to predict/project how good a team will be at the business end of the season; but likewise I don't think one should be unduly restricted by and beholden to the past (i.e., the opening weeks of the season). In my opinion, a weekly ranking should try to capture who is thought to be best at that point in time which is not the same as who has had the better season to date. Now, in practice, I understand the challenge of making that distinction as you fill out your ballot, but I personally would want a ranking, particularly a poll-based ranking, to be striving for the former not the later. Put another way, I prefer the "Week 5" ranking to tell me who is the best at the Week 5 point of the season. Otherwise, it would be more accurate to call it the "Week 5 Season-to-Date" ranking. My 2 cents.
First words out of Chris Brown's mouth as he shook Jay's hand: "it was a tale of two halves."
OWU has a lot of talent and they're seeking the right combination of players. They used another starting line up last night - freshman #31 just may have earned a few more starts. They have cut back on some of the defensive mistakes that cost them in earlier games. ONU - long throw, flicked on, pinballs around and falls to an ONU striker at the top of the 6. 1-0 loss. First 15 minutes vs Hope - crossed ball settled nicely by an OWU back for the Hope forward to easily place in the net. 1-1. JCU - two goals in the last minute before the end of the half - team switching off. The goal off the corner - OWU uses a zonal defense on corners and I hate it. JCU player makes a near post run - corner served short and nodded in near post. But the first JCU goal - and I saw this a few times last night: JCU player gets the ball just inside the attacking half, runs straight down Route 1 for about 30 yards and shoots from outside the 18. Thought the keeper could have done better, but what of the players in front of him who did nothing to stop the penetration??? When it happened last night I blurted out: "Why are you retreating?" - then sheepishly looked around in case the kid's parents were nearby.
On attack there are issues. As good as Guerra might be, he's a black hole: ball goes in and never comes out. His head is down and he tries to beat the entire opposition alone. And I believe he played 90 minutes last night. They have plenty of talent up front should they work with one another - as Kenyon does so well.
There aren't any superior teams in the GL region - Kenyon is the best. They are very fast with the ball - it's one thing to have sprinting superiority, but to run that fast and keep the ball! I think the key to any run they might make after getting to the round of 16 is their CB #4. Second time I've seen him in person - just a great player. Not built like a soccer player - more like a rugby player. His lower torso resembles a 100 year old oak tree. He wins 90% of his duels - really haven't seen him lose one. He cleans up everything that gets through the front players. Everything. Once last night I thought he surely mistimed a challenge and was about to yield a break away:he got the ball, sliding from behind - no contact with the OWU player to even consider a foul. Advantage to seeing him in person is watching him gauge where to be. He reads the game so well. As long as he stays healthy he can be an X factor for them.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 05, 2022, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:41:22 AM
@jknezek, I agree with all of that except for maybe your estimate scenarios, and I assume we're agreeing that who we might vote for in a poll 1-15 or 20 is not necessarily who would say in our heart of hearts are the best 15-20 teams. For instance, I am voting in some teams in my poll vote that I would not pick head to head with some teams below them, but results (and blemishes) demand something different of a poll voter (I think) than an assessment of who, records aside, are the best or most formidable teams. As for my estimate of the NESCACs, I'd probably say in the end there will be three (not sure which ones yet) in the top 15 or so and 5 within the top 25 and then another two to three in the top 35-40.
^^^ You've said things to this effect before, and then as now I don't get it. Standings must reflect results (wins, ties, and losses) by definition. But a poll is, by definition, an opinion; it is subjective; it can take into account so many factors, like SoS, performance not just result, etc. as well as gut-feeling. What is the purpose of a ranking if not to present who are the best teams, or, more precisely, who are thought/considered to be the best teams? If on their ballots, voters are placing teams they think are better below other teams who they think are inferior on the basis of W-L-T records, then I'm not sure what's the point? I'm not saying that one should be trying to predict/project how good a team will be at the business end of the season; but likewise I don't think one should be unduly restricted by and beholden to the past (i.e., the opening weeks of the season). In my opinion, a weekly ranking should try to capture who is thought to be best at that point in time which is not the same as who has had the better season to date. Now, in practice, I understand the challenge of making that distinction as you fill out your ballot, but I personally would want a ranking, particularly a poll-based ranking, to be striving for the former not the later. Put another way, I prefer the "Week 5" ranking to tell me who is the best at the Week 5 point of the season. Otherwise, it would be more accurate to call it the "Week 5 Season-to-Date" ranking. My 2 cents.
Yeah, FW, you may be right but I don't think I'm an outlier here. I can think a team has underperformed and does not currently deserve to be ranked #12 in the country without concluding that they wouldn't beat UWEC or GAC or Gettysburg head to head. How many voters, in ANY of the polls, truly believe Gettysburg is better than Tufts or Conn Coll and would win head to head? Or that St Olaf isn't better than some ranked teams? Are you suggesting that based on their results the first few weeks I should have had St Olaf in my top 15 if in my heart of hearts they are one of the best teams? Should I ignore the results? I think pollsters consider multiple factors. UWEC isn't in the top 25 because a bunch of pollsters think they are truly top 25. I watched them pile up wins for a few weeks and before putting them in the 20s myself I waited for something to at least temporarily counter the perception of 100% fools gold...and then they won against Loras. Now I'll see what they do against St Olaf.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 05, 2022, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:41:22 AM
@jknezek, I agree with all of that except for maybe your estimate scenarios, and I assume we're agreeing that who we might vote for in a poll 1-15 or 20 is not necessarily who would say in our heart of hearts are the best 15-20 teams. For instance, I am voting in some teams in my poll vote that I would not pick head to head with some teams below them, but results (and blemishes) demand something different of a poll voter (I think) than an assessment of who, records aside, are the best or most formidable teams. As for my estimate of the NESCACs, I'd probably say in the end there will be three (not sure which ones yet) in the top 15 or so and 5 within the top 25 and then another two to three in the top 35-40.
^^^ You've said things to this effect before, and then as now I don't get it. Standings must reflect results (wins, ties, and losses) by definition. But a poll is, by definition, an opinion; it is subjective; it can take into account so many factors, like SoS, performance not just result, etc. as well as gut-feeling. What is the purpose of a ranking if not to present who are the best teams, or, more precisely, who are thought/considered to be the best teams? If on their ballots, voters are placing teams they think are better below other teams who they think are inferior on the basis of W-L-T records, then I'm not sure what's the point? I'm not saying that one should be trying to predict/project how good a team will be at the business end of the season; but likewise I don't think one should be unduly restricted by and beholden to the past (i.e., the opening weeks of the season). In my opinion, a weekly ranking should try to capture who is thought to be best at that point in time which is not the same as who has had the better season to date. Now, in practice, I understand the challenge of making that distinction as you fill out your ballot, but I personally would want a ranking, particularly a poll-based ranking, to be striving for the former not the later. Put another way, I prefer the "Week 5" ranking to tell me who is the best at the Week 5 point of the season. Otherwise, it would be more accurate to call it the "Week 5 Season-to-Date" ranking. My 2 cents.
By your standard I would have JCU, CWRU, OWU, St Olaf, maybe C-M-S, maybe Otterbein, Trinity (TX), etc in my top 25. And I suppose you would say I should vote that. It's odd right when people are arguing strongly that NESCAC blemishes shouldn't be ignored even if they are against one another, and that a team that is, let's say 4-4-2, has to suffer those results to date to at least some degree.
Domino, thanks for all that info.
If you were talking about a Kenyon CB, they are Matt Nguyen #19 and Aidan Burns #20...unless you are talking about OWU #4. Kenyon's #4 is small, speedy forward Sam Carson. If you're talking about Nguyen he is built like you described and has been very good, as has Burns. Nguyen is a transfer from Marshall (didn't get any time at Marshall in his one year there).
Btw, Domino, while you were there did you hear anything about injuries to Martinez for Kenyon or any other players?
Yes - sorry - meant #19. No word on injuries.
Interesting stat: OWU is tied for 8th nationally for number of YC received.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
Wednesday/Thursday Roundup
Wednesday
7:00 pm -- Chapman @ Pomona-Pitzer (Please get Kuiper on line 1.)
10:00 pm -- Cal Lutheran @ C-M-S (Kuiper, just stay on the line.)
A couple of thoughts on the two big games in SCIAC today:
Chapman @ Pomona-PitzerThis is a battle for the last playoff spot, although it's too early for that kind of talk. Nevertheless, Pomona-Pitzer is in 4th and Chapman in 5th right now and SCIAC starts playoffs in the semifinals, so it's a good way for teams to gauge where things stand. Pomona-Pitzer is coming on a roll, having won three games in a row. The last two - a 4-3 win over Redlands and a 1-0 victor against Cal Lutheran - are especially impressive especially since both games were on the road against teams with better pedigrees and who they haven't beaten or even tied in several years. Chapman is harder to figure out. The last game they beat La Verne 4-0 (a team that beat Pomona-Pitzer 1-0), but the game before that Chapman lost to Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 4-0. In the La Verne game, Chapman scored in the first 30 seconds and again in the 10th minute, so that certainly gave them confidence and changed any game plan La Verne had intended to play. One wildcard in this game might be Pomona-Pitzer's sophomore GK Ethan Bae. He was a regular starter last year, but suffered some kind of injury early this season and freshman Will Brooks deputized for him. They brought Bae back for the Oxy game, but he let in a soft game winner for Oxy in a tight 1-0 contest. Not sure whether they brought him back too early from injury or they benched him for performance reasons, but Brooks started the next three games. In the Redlands game, though, Brooks let in 2 in the first half and looked really shaky on the second. They started Bae in the second half. Although he let in an early goal on a rebound, he appeared to settle things down defensively and PP went on to win. Bae continued to start in the Cal Lutheran game and played solid. I don't want to suggest Bae is a dominant GK - he's undersized and only a soph himself - but the team seemed to calm down when he was in there. If he can help hold Chapman's initial surge off, PP may be able to keep their run going.
Cal Lutheran @ C-M-SThis is a battle for a share of first place in SCIAC with Oxy (who is not playing today) and I'm sure the teams will be considering it as such. Plus, they play each other again in two weeks, so both teams will want to establish superiority. Cal Lutheran is coming off that big loss to Pomona-Pitzer and C-M-S has won two in a row (against somewhat weaker competition in Cal Tech and Whittier, but Whittier just beat Redlands 2-1 on Saturday). This game will be determined by C-M-S' offense against Cal Lutheran's defense and GK Davis Sharts. Sharts is a JC transfer who is one of the stronger GKs in the conference thus far with a .61 GAA (.40 in conference) and a ~90% save rate in both. Cal Lutheran has been shut out two weeks in a row (while only giving up 1 goal), while C-M-S has scored 5 the last two games. If C-M-S has its shooting boots on early, it will be tough for Cal Lutheran. I still think C-M-S is the class of the league, but it all depends upon their offense, which has been streaky.
Roundup (cont-)
Thank you, Kuiper!
Friday
Friday
7:00 pm -- St Thomas @ Southwestern (Before losing to Trinity I intended to highlight Southwestern as an under the radar team to watch. They were 3-3-2 at the time with draws against C-M-S and St Thomas and also had a close loss to Rowan. Southwestern is led by coach Dustin Norman who guided the program to its first NCAA appearance in his first year in 2018. He was the assoc head coach at SMU for three season before Southwestern and also was an asst at Oregon State. A 2005 Maryville graduate, Norman tallied 36 goals and 22 assists over his college career. St Thomas, now 7-0-2 after the altitude game, is led by coach Ian Clerihew wo arrived in 2017 after three seasons as the first asst at Yale. He previously was the head coach at D2 Franklin Pierce in NH with earlier stints as an asst at Villanova, Duke, and St John's. As a player Clerihew won a D2 national title in 1993 with Seattle Pacific Univ.)
10:00 -- Pac Lutheran @ Puget Sound (I loved Pac Lutheran and lost...two years in a row...an unfaithful lover I was forced to abandon. But now the Lutes are tempting me again as they have rebounded to 9-2. And what to make of the Loggers of Puget Sound at 6-2-4 [2-2-2]? In the coaching battle it's John Yorke in his 20th season at Pac Luth versus Reece Olney in his 28th campaign. IDK, I just can't take the heartbreak. Loggers 2-1.)
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 05, 2022, 12:39:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:41:22 AM
@jknezek, I agree with all of that except for maybe your estimate scenarios, and I assume we're agreeing that who we might vote for in a poll 1-15 or 20 is not necessarily who would say in our heart of hearts are the best 15-20 teams. For instance, I am voting in some teams in my poll vote that I would not pick head to head with some teams below them, but results (and blemishes) demand something different of a poll voter (I think) than an assessment of who, records aside, are the best or most formidable teams. As for my estimate of the NESCACs, I'd probably say in the end there will be three (not sure which ones yet) in the top 15 or so and 5 within the top 25 and then another two to three in the top 35-40.
^^^ You've said things to this effect before, and then as now I don't get it. Standings must reflect results (wins, ties, and losses) by definition. But a poll is, by definition, an opinion; it is subjective; it can take into account so many factors, like SoS, performance not just result, etc. as well as gut-feeling. What is the purpose of a ranking if not to present who are the best teams, or, more precisely, who are thought/considered to be the best teams? If on their ballots, voters are placing teams they think are better below other teams who they think are inferior on the basis of W-L-T records, then I'm not sure what's the point? I'm not saying that one should be trying to predict/project how good a team will be at the business end of the season; but likewise I don't think one should be unduly restricted by and beholden to the past (i.e., the opening weeks of the season). In my opinion, a weekly ranking should try to capture who is thought to be best at that point in time which is not the same as who has had the better season to date. Now, in practice, I understand the challenge of making that distinction as you fill out your ballot, but I personally would want a ranking, particularly a poll-based ranking, to be striving for the former not the later. Put another way, I prefer the "Week 5" ranking to tell me who is the best at the Week 5 point of the season. Otherwise, it would be more accurate to call it the "Week 5 Season-to-Date" ranking. My 2 cents.
Yeah, FW, you may be right but I don't think I'm an outlier here. I can think a team has underperformed and does not currently deserve to be ranked #12 in the country without concluding that they wouldn't beat UWEC or GAC or Gettysburg head to head. How many voters, in ANY of the polls, truly believe Gettysburg is better than Tufts or Conn Coll and would win head to head? Or that St Olaf isn't better than some ranked teams? Are you suggesting that based on their results the first few weeks I should have had St Olaf in my top 15 if in my heart of hearts they are one of the best teams? Should I ignore the results? I think pollsters consider multiple factors. UWEC isn't in the top 25 because a bunch of pollsters think they are truly top 25. I watched them pile up wins for a few weeks and before putting them in the 20s myself I waited for something to at least temporarily counter the perception of 100% fools gold...and then they won against Loras. Now I'll see what they do against St Olaf.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 01:25:22 PM
By your standard I would have JCU, CWRU, OWU, St Olaf, maybe C-M-S, maybe Otterbein, Trinity (TX), etc in my top 25. And I suppose you would say I should vote that. It's odd right when people are arguing strongly that NESCAC blemishes shouldn't be ignored even if they are against one another, and that a team that is, let's say 4-4-2, has to suffer those results to date to at least some degree.
No, you certainly are not an outlier. I'm probably in the minority here that really thinks a poll is about opinion and that you should vote your opinion, not some perceived expectation that such-and-such a record to date requires putting a team ahead of another team who you genuinely believe is better now (not by season's end) despite their blemishes and would be the favorite if the two teams played tomorrow. To me it is somewhat ridiculous to look at a poll-based ranking or someone's individual ballot and realize it does not serve to tell me who is thought to be more likely to win if two teams played now, today, tomorrow, this week. I'm personally not as interested in seeing a ranking of who's had the better season-to-date.
Using St. Olaf as an example, IF after their most recent loss to a team that has won less than half their games and leaves them with four losses halfway through the season including a loss to another team that's only won half their games and having only 1 win against a team with a winning record (and just 4-3-3, at that), . . . IF after accounting for all that, you still think they are currently playing better then all but 20 or so teams in the nation despite the results and would favor them against all but 20 or so teams in a game tomorrow, then, yes, you should put them on your ballot. If that's your opinion, vote that. I can disagree with you for reaching that conclusion on the evidence, but a poll is asking for your opinion, so give it.
Continuing with St. Olaf more to make a general point than to specifically dissect where they should/shouldn't be ranked (I haven't watched them play at all this season nor studied their box scores, so this is for illustrative purposes). I'm not sure what to make of St.Olaf this year. Based on last season, which I am still of the opinion was not a fluke or aberration, I could think that they have the squad and coach needed to be very good, Top 25 quality, that can reach the second weekend of the NCAA's. However, I could also think they are not in good form at the moment and not playing to their potential, and thus I could doubt, based on current form, their ability to get wins against Top 25 opponents at this point in time even if I think there's a decent chance they round back into form and could be very dangerous later in the season. I wouldn't rank them based on the way I "know" they can play, but rather upon how they are or aren't playing at the moment.
Just my way of looking at things and what I think rankings should ideally represent. But many will have a different take on what rankings mean or should represent.
I hope some other "voters" will chime in.
FW, you're right, I think we probably had this exact same discussion last year, and I'm now probably gonna repeat the same things I said before.
Yes, my opinion...but sounds like you're telling me it has to be my opinion of who would win head to head today. My opinion but it has to narrowly answer this particular question. I don't accept that. I also don't accept that by voting my opinion about who currently is most deserving that that reduces to me to what I would agree would be a ridiculous/useless simple accounting exercise of counting up Ws, Ls, and Ts. I don't. That feels like a straw man. In fact i and I think many others simply skip over some the teams with gaudy records who we know have played virtually no one. Now you've added with the St Olaf example whether they currently need to be in good form? But whether Tufts is in good form or not doesn't necessarily sway how I think they'll do tomorrow against Coast Guard or Clarkson or Catholic or GAC.
And you're wanting to reduce what you think I'm doing to better season-to-date. That's not what I'm doing. If you want to say I'm doing deserving to date based on multiple factors then I guess OK. Then you go on to bring in "playing better right now" and "would favor them over"....those are two very different things not always in sync. I might not think St Olaf is playing better than GAC or Catholic or Willamette but that doesn't mean, if we're talking about my opinion, that St. Olaf wouldn't most likely beat those teams or two out of three of them. Amherst could be in terrible form but that doesn't mean I wouldn't pikc them head to head over teams ranked higher. Denison was ranked and still in the convo (while for whatever reason Otterbein hasn't been) and OWU is 3-4-3. In my opinion OWU would beat Denison today. I absolutely believe JCU is a top 20 team and yet almost no voters in any of the polls have put them there. A counter-example, more in line what what you're saying, might be Cortland (although after being like 4-3-2 they've now maybe 7-3-2).
Your statement that "I wouldn't rank them based on the way I "know" they can play, but rather upon how they are or aren't playing at the moment" I think is a false, forced choice. I'm not arguing for putting Tufts ahead of someone because I know or think I know what they'll be like at the end of the season. Even if they are in current poor form I can still think they would beat someone today or tomorrow. But based on recent performance, on the deserving metric, I'm not going to put Tufts in my top 10 right now, and I doubt many other voters would either.
But your analysis does raise some questions that maybe go to the dynamics of how poll voters across sports and different levels of sports tend to vote. Like, and these aren't the exact right words, so please give me a little latitude here, but I think the etiquette when a big team loses is to knock them down at least a few pegs. When most of us dropped North Park from #2 or #3 to #8 or #9, I think there is an unconscious kind of rule that just moving them one or two spots isn't enough even though the loss was the the perceived #1 team in the country...sort of like there has to be a minimum penalty so to speak for losing. That I think would be more legitimate from my point of view to go after. I probably should have put North Park at #4 instead of #9 (as I had them at #2). It will be interesting to see, if Kenyon prevails over Wabash (a real question btw), how much voters "punish" Kenyon for a draw against a team that is probably far better than voters will consider because they've had a tough start. Anyway, this also brings up that there's a lot of great area, so it's not like I come to some truly definitive opinion and I doubt other voters do either. Like do I really know if, even in just my own opinion, whether North Park is truly #3 or truly #11? How could I know that with high confidence when they haven't actually played most of those teams. There's fudge room where we all ultimately pin a gut feeling on things along with "harder data."
Now having said all that, I reckon most of us adhere to something close to what you're saying we should be doing for at least the top 10-12 (unlike the Coaches poll that ofrten puts someone for regional reasons in the top 8 that makes little sense). The variations or divergences I would guess come in for most of us in the 14-15 and above range, and definitely the 18-25 range.
TCNJ slips by Wash Coll 1-0.
And wow, didn't even include this one....Potsdam levels with Oneonta 1-1 with 13 seconds left.
I lost my Wednesday review trying to post the above. Oh well.
I said it before, best combined Route 11 season in history.
(Clarkson/SLU/Potsdam) all playing pretty good football at the same time for the first time in at least 30 years.... maybe ever.
Quote from: Saint of Old on October 05, 2022, 07:14:54 PM
I said it before, best combined Route 11 season in history.
(Clarkson/SLU/Potsdam) all playing pretty good football at the same time for the first time in at least 30 years.... maybe ever.
Potsdam with a big result @Oneonta today snatching a draw in the final seconds. Definitely the best collective soccer in the North Country that I can remember.
Some interesting results...
CNU responds well in a 4-0 romp.
W&L equalizes in the last 2-3 minutes to draw with Lynchburg.
Otterbein equalizes even later in the 89th minute to draw with ONU.
Stevens 0 FDU-Florham 0?
Drew passes a good test against R-Newark.
MW beats Catholic 3-1.
North Central up 3-1 late on Wheaton.
Hopkins wins another 1-0 game.
The two big SCIAC games were crazy tonight.
Pomona-Pitzer blows a 3-1 lead at halftime to Chapman where they were clearly in control and loses 4-3 on a last second goal after the P-P coach had clearly yelled to the GK to slow the game down with less than a minute left and he did a quick punt instead.
C-M-S tied Cal Lutheran 3-3. So much for it being an offense v defense game. Both defenses took the night off.
Man... Catholic is a wonky team.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 06, 2022, 09:29:04 AM
Man... Catholic is a wonky team.
Definition of average. If you can weather than in the first 15 or so, and not participate in what they want to do which is ram it down your throat, you have a chance at a result.
SC.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:52:37 PM
Some interesting results...
CNU responds well in a 4-0 romp.
W&L equalizes in the last 2-3 minutes to draw with Lynchburg.
Otterbein equalizes even later in the 89th minute to draw with ONU.
Stevens 0 FDU-Florham 0?
Drew passes a good test against R-Newark.
MW beats Catholic 3-1.
North Central up 3-1 late on Wheaton.
Hopkins wins another 1-0 game.
Soccer is wonky. W&L outshot Lynchburg 20-6, 10-3 on goal, 6-1 on corners. Some days they just won't go in the net.
Avoiding the stuff that I really should be doing, and looking over last night's result . . .
Very surprised by the Stevens vs. FDU-Florham result, a scoreless draw, which halted the Ducks' win streak at 8 games. Outshot the Devils 17(6) to 6(2); I'm guessing they outplayed them as well. Just a road bump for the #4 ranked team in the nation?
Ouch! Loras got drubbed 6-0 by Luther last night to drop to 5-5-0 on the heels of being swept by the Wisconsin state schools (Whitewater, Eau Claire, Platteville) over the previous two weeks. The Duhawks opening weekend win over Ohio Wesleyan is seeming soooo long ago and not nearly as impressive as it did at the time.
UW-Platteville, overshadowed by UW-Eau Claire's unexpected 13-0-0 start, hasn't lost since their opening weekend defeat to . . . Eau Claire. The Pioneers now sit at 8-2-1 after beating a sinking Loras last Saturday. Is there any reason for Christopher Newport to be worried come Coast-2-Coast playoff time? Probably not, but they are shaping up to be the Captains' biggest hurdle to claiming an automatic berth to the NCAA's.
With last night's win over Wheaton, North Central (Ill.) continues as one of 14 remaining undefeated teams and now have a 27-2-3 post-pandemic record. Nothing too impressive on their resume yet this year. A 3-0 win to hand 5-tie Wartburg their only loss of the campaign is the high point.
Speaking of undefeated teams . . .
After last night's tie with Buffalo State, Medaille is 6-0-5 in rather unimpressive fashion. Ties with Hobart and Brockport State are about as good as it gets. The Mavericks might be as likely as anyone to be champions of the quite mediocre Empire 8 in their first year since moving over from the AMCC.
Lynchburg's 6-0-5 record has a bit more credibility than Medaille's. The Hornets remained undefeated after hanging on against ranked W&L last night (almost got the win). They opened the season holding Messiah to a 2-2 draw when they netted a last-minute equalizer.
Hadn't heard Brockport State mentioned this year, but there they sit on top of the SUNYAC standings at 5-0-0. Closer look: they've played the bottom five teams in the conference. Starting Saturday they face Oneonta, Geneseo, New Paltz, and Cortland to close out the season, getting the two favorites at home where the Golden Eagles are a perfect 5-0-0.
Hanover got a much needed win last night over Transy, 4-1, to get back to .500 at 4-4-3. The Panthers were 3-3-1 at one point last year and still turned some heads in the NCAA tournament after winning the HCAC AQ as the #2 seed. Can they build up steam in conference play again this year?
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 05, 2022, 09:52:37 PM
Hopkins wins another 1-0 game.
I'm on record (probably annoyingly) about Hopkins and their "walk the ball into the net" style, and that they are living dangerously "eking out" all of these 1-0 results.
I watched a good deal of the Goucher game last night and it occurred to me... Once they got that goal, it was pretty much a clinic of possession and, not to be too dramatic about it, but kind of crushing the souls of the trailing team by forcing them to chase for very long stretches of time. Would I like for them to score that second goal and really put things away? Of course. But watching last night... It would've taken an extremely fluky, very much against the run of play goal for the Gophers to level up.
I still don't like it, especially once we get into November... But I'm feeling less critical about the approach.
I was taking a look at how Giammattei has been doing at Maryland and while starting 6 games, his minutes in those are baffling:
- Started - 57 minutes
- Started - 54 minutes
- Started - 42 minutes
- off the bench - 25 minutes
- off the bench - 32 minutes
- off the bench - 33 minutes
- Started - 24 minutes
- Started - 38 minutes
- Off the bench - 31 minutes
- Started - 36 minutes
I dug into it a bit more and looks like they play 3 forwards with 2 of them playing either the entire or the large majority of the game and then German and 4 other forwards share time for the third spot. I've never seen such a committee approach to one position.
I don't pretend to have even an iota of the soccer knowledge a premier d1 coach has, but this seems very unusual to me. How can these 5 players get into a good rhythm (especially at forward) playing such short minutes? Curious about everyone's thoughts and if any of your teams have employed such an approach before.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 06, 2022, 12:21:10 PMWith last night's win over Wheaton, North Central (Ill.) continues as one of 14 remaining undefeated teams and now have a 27-2-3 post-pandemic record. Nothing too impressive on their resume yet this year. A 3-0 win to hand 5-tie Wartburg their only loss of the campaign is the high point.
North Central head coach Enzo Fuschino is a big believer in scheduling strategically rather than scheduling competitively. He relies upon scheduling what he surmises will be the second-, third-, or fourth-best teams in the local lower-tier leagues (MWC, NACC, HCAC, etc.) and eschews taking on the local non-conference heavyweights (Chicago, Calvin, GAC, St. Olaf, Wash U, Luther, etc.). It was a good enough strategy to get him a Pool C berth last season, and I'm guessing that it will work again this year -- but it doesn't really leave his Cardinals well prepared to face the big boys.
A lot is riding on next Wednesday's showdown at Benedetti-Wehrli Stadium in Naperville when North Park comes to town to visit the Cardinals. NPU and NCC are again the two best teams in the CCIW, so this showdown will likely determine who wins the conference and thus gets the top seed in the CCIW tourney. The Vikings are more talented overall, but the Cardinals have a great equalizer in All-American GK Sid Marquardt. It should be a great game.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 06, 2022, 12:52:34 PM
I dug into it a bit more and looks like they play 3 forwards with 2 of them playing either the entire or the large majority of the game and then German and 4 other forwards share time for the third spot. I've never seen such a committee approach to one position.
I don't pretend to have even an iota of the soccer knowledge a premier d1 coach has, but this seems very unusual to me. How can these 5 players get into a good rhythm (especially at forward) playing such short minutes? Curious about everyone's thoughts and if any of your teams have employed such an approach before.
We live in Maryland and have followed Sasho for many years, plus my son played on the same club team as several of UMD's players. Further, my son played/started in a D1 program (not the same level as UMD and that is a whole other subject) This is classic Sasho MO. He has done this for years with respect to forwards. Mids and backs are generally not subbed (the exception is UMD keepers which two keepers over the last two years have split time). I am guessing and only guessing is that he wants lots of activity up top and with the crazy short season with games 3 or 4 days a part, he feels that he asks his forwards to max out in short time and next man up. Plus D1 mens soccer has the highest rate of transfers even before the transfer portal. All strikers want to play and score. If they are on the bench UMD could lose them.
Sasho is also the biggest proponent of split seasons. 8 or 9 games in the fall and the same in the spring with the tournament in May/June. He has gotten a lot of traction and was close pre COVID. Hopefully he will be successful. He also believes the crazy short schedule and limited soccer in the spring is why many good American players are opting to go pro before or shortly after starting college. Ex. Ben Bender left after his soph year and was the No. 1 draft pick.
My personal opinion is that Sasho is correct and we are ruining soccer in college. Not a huge Sasho fan which is another story. D1, D2, D3 etc play way, way too many games in such a short time (two months and then back-to=back games during playoffs). Plus UMD like many other programs regularly have to get on planes (miss the day before, game day, and sometimes day after classes) It's been known for a long time that teams should only play games at the minimum of 6 days apart. Sasho's proposal which is supported by many may help this plus raise the visibility of college soccer by having the tourney in spring as opposed to winter.
On a positive note as to Sasho is that he does not heavily rely on foreign adult players (21-22-23 etc) to play for him. He does have some, but not the same level of Marshall and many other D1 programs. He still heavily recruits Maryland, DC, Vir players who see substantial time on his team.
The issue with split seasons has less to do with the soccer and more to do with the administration. Athletic departments are stretched thin as is. Asking them to take on another sport on top of an already full spring slate is a lot to ask. A school like Maryland might be able to handle it, but the mid majors would be at an disadvantage. There's a lot that goes in setting up and facilitating a game.
Having watched a season of West Virginia, I don't think this is unique to Maryland. The Mountaineers coach is a serial rotator of midfielders & strikers. The substitution rules enable that and whilst I get the idea of immediate impact, it also relies on players quickly adjusting to the rhythm of the game and it's not crazy to say that 5-10 minutes are wasted whilst that process takes place. I think that it's almost a waste of time being a D1 striker in that environment and certainly if you have aspirations post college, the ability to function for a battle-hardened 90 minutes feels pretty important.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 06, 2022, 01:33:03 PMSasho is also the biggest proponent of split seasons. 8 or 9 games in the fall and the same in the spring with the tournament in May/June. He has gotten a lot of traction and was close pre COVID. Hopefully he will be successful. He also believes the crazy short schedule and limited soccer in the spring is why many good American players are opting to go pro before or shortly after starting college. Ex. Ben Bender left after his soph year and was the No. 1 draft pick.
My personal opinion is that Sasho is correct and we are ruining soccer in college. Not a huge Sasho fan which is another story. D1, D2, D3 etc play way, way too many games in such a short time (two months and then back-to=back games during playoffs). Plus UMD like many other programs regularly have to get on planes (miss the day before, game day, and sometimes day after classes) It's been known for a long time that teams should only play games at the minimum of 6 days apart. Sasho's proposal which is supported by many may help this plus raise the visibility of college soccer by having the tourney in spring as opposed to winter.
D3 is not D1. At this level, it's not about becoming a professional soccer player or "raising the visibility of college soccer," it's about getting an education. As the D3 promotional materials say, "Our student-athletes go pro as doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, business executives, etc." If D1 is competing with the pros to get the best 17- or 18-year-old soccer players in the country, then that's D1's business. D3's business is about giving an opportunity to play to student-athletes who are focused first and foremost upon their education. Also, plane travel is irrelevant in D3, unless you're a student-athlete at a UAA school ... and even then, it's very limited.
D3 is also the level where the schools are (mostly) the smallest and resources are (mostly) the sparsest. Splitting men's soccer into two seasons would have a tumultuous ripple effect upon school resources (facilities, training staff, sports information and game staff, etc.) that are already overextended at many D3 schools. Men's soccer doesn't call the tune to which all of the other sports in D3 athletics must dance. Even football and men's basketball, which are far more popular than men's soccer, don't have that kind of clout on the D3 level. When one sport decides to alter its annual schedule at the D3 level, it throws all of the rest out of whack. We saw that in spades in the spring of 2020 when the fall sports decided in the wake of their Covid cancellations to play partial schedules in the spring on top of all of the spring sports that were playing their normal schedules. I know that a lot of people who participate here on the soccer boards are one-sport-only fans (the football boards have a similarly high percentage of one-sport-only fans), and I think that a lot of them miss just what a delicate juggling act is involved in keeping all of the sports in sync at a lot of D3 institutions.
A split season is wrong for D3 men's soccer for many reasons.
"Not a huge Sasho fan which is another story."
I'd be curious to hear said story...
Apologies if this was already covered but does anyone know why MIT @ Brandeis was cancelled last night?
Saturday
11:00 am -- Carnegie Mellon @ Brandeis (Must win for both? CMU is coming off a home loss to NYU and after Brandeis have Chicago on the road. The Tartans cannot afford an 0-3 start in the UAA. Brandeis has had a disappointing season thus far outside of a win over Babson and in the Judges' first UAA outing got smoked by CWRU.)
12:00 pm -- Emory @ Chicago (Emory is also 0-1 in the UAA thanks to a loss at home versus Wash U. The Eagles desperately need an upset win over the Maroons to ignite a turnaround, but I don't see that happening. Chicago probably will pick up a blemish over the next couple of weeks, although peeking at the rest of their schedule there's a fair chance the Maroons could run the table.)
12:00 pm -- Colby @ Middlebury (Midd needs to build off of recent momentum and especially at home should snare a win. Colby, coming off a string of draws with Williams, Amherst, and at Tufts, has reason to be confident. Not quite prepared to put an upset alert tag on this one, but it is tempting.)
12:00 pm -- Oneonta St @ Brockport St (Oneonta is starting to show some kinks in the armor with a loss at home to Geneseo and a draw at home with Potsdam. Meanwhile, Brockport may be closing in on Pool C range at 7-1-4 and 5-0 in conference. The Golden Eagles still have a couple of tough games to close the regular season, but a win here would put them in an attractive position, not to mention just regular 'ol growing confidence that they can stand up to the big boys. I'm gonna guess that pedigree will prevail, even on the road...Oneonta 3, Brockport 1.)
1:00 pm -- MSOE @ Dominican (This one has lost the luster it never had after MSOE drops one to Concordia (Wis) and Dominican stumbles to a home loss to NACC mid-table Marian.)
1:00 pm -- Kenyon @ Wabash (In 2014 the then Lords were 12-0 and #2 in the country behind only Messiah but a small crack in the foundation was detectable on MRI scan after escaping a blemish at Denison with a last minute 2OT goal. The Little Giants had no interest in contributing to Kenyon euphoria and earned a 1-0 upset at Mud Hollow Stadium in Crawfordsville off a header served up from a 2nd half corner. Kenyon didn't lose again until the Sweet 16. Wabash in 2022 is 9-2-1 in the context of a relatively soft schedule, and will be pumped up to grab a major signature win that would go a long way towards insuring a place in the NCAC playoffs. Speaking of which, the Little Giants likely have stewed over last year's NCAC semi in Gambier where they got thumped by the tune of 8-0. I am contractually prohibited from placing an upset alert here but others might be interested.)
2:00 pm -- Conn Coll @ Williams – (Great dynamics at play in Williamstown. Defending national champ searching to revive last year's form going against a resurgent Williams highly invested in putting the Ephs back where they are supposed to be...at or at least near the top of the NESCAC standings. I deem this game prediction-wise uncallable.)
2:00 pm -- Vassar @ Skidmore (Another excellent LL match that will be over by the time I try to tune in, as some of these conferences like the LL and SUNYAC seem to have weekday 4:00 games and then early-mid-afternoon weekend fixtures. These teams are similar in that they probably fall just barely below the line of most believing they are really good and not just good.)
3:00 -- Wesleyan @ Amherst (The Wesleyan dream season is in jeopardy. Two straight losses after soaring up the polls, one to Midd that was very understandable, and then a second not so understandable unless pollsters are inclined to offer a mulligan because of harsh weather. The pollsters won't do that because they'll say they'd be setting a precedent for everybody. Amherst needs this game very badly as well. Otherwise, the Mammoths will find themselves drifting around in very unfamiliar waters.)
4:00 pm -- Hopkins @ Washington College (Last call at the Chestertown Saloon. The Shoreman cannot afford another loss, especially if they want a decent chance of maintaining a top 4 Centennial finish. I'm tempted to go with an upset alert, but it's seeming more and likely that Wash College simply doesn't have the horses this season. As for Hopkins, the pundits want more...like a 3-0 or 4-0 victory.)
4:00 pm -- CWRU @ NYU (Sneaky huge game. The winner, should there be one, will be feeling really good about ending the regular season strong. Vital game to bolster hopes for a potential Poll C bid.)
6:00 pm – W&L @ Christopher Newport (I just don't trust CNU in a big spot. Sometimes the Captains seem almost like a poor man's version of other teams that chronically disappoint me. I feel a bit better about this one having some real juice because CNU rebounded so well from the Messiah game. Not a must-win for W&L but very important to keep momentum growing, especially after just drawing with rival Lynchburg.)
7:00 pm -- Calvin @ Hope (Toss out the record books for this one.......and Calvin will still win.)
7:00 pm -- F&M @ Gettysburg (A Saturday game under the lights in Gettysburg in early October against a key rival with both hoping to keep pace with each other and current top dog Johns Hopkins. Very similar records...F&M at 8-1-2 and Gettysburg at 7-1-2 where SoSs for both imo are OK but do not provide clear insight about the relative strength of these squads. Great opportunity for the Bullets to impress the pollsters.)
7:00 pm -- Rowan @ Montclair St (Rowan is 5-4-3 and seemingly living through their season slipping away from them. I thought the monster schedule might pay dividends as the season progressed but a 6-0 loss to NJ City ended that thesis. Rowan either starts a 5 or 6 game win streak here or they're probably done. Montclair hasn't been spectacular either, but they still are a heavy favorite in the NJAC and in good position.)
10:00 pm -- Pomona-Pitzer @ C-M-S (Kuiper time.)
I had a post teed up about the Hopkins game last night, but I couldn't quite pull the trigger. They just aren't built score 3 or 4 goals. I think if they'd launch a few balls into the box, they'd wind up with a few more of those games. But they are a "dribble the ball into the 6 yard box" kind of team... Just not gonna happen.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 06, 2022, 02:51:57 PM
Saturday
4:00 pm -- Hopkins @ Washington College (Last call at the Chestertown Saloon. The Shoreman cannot afford another loss, especially if they want a decent chance of maintaining a top 4 Centennial finish. I'm tempted to go with an upset alert, but it's seeming more and likely that Wash College simply doesn't have the horses this season. As for Hopkins, the pundits want more...like a 3-0 or 4-0 victory.)
6:00 pm – W&L @ Christopher Newport (I just don't trust CNU in a big spot. Sometimes the Captains seem almost like a poor man's version of other teams that chronically disappoint me. I feel a bit better about this one having some real juice because CNU rebounded so well from the Messiah game. Not a must-win for W&L but very important to keep momentum growing, especially after just drawing with rival Lynchburg.)
7:00 pm -- F&M @ Gettysburg (A Saturday game under the lights in Gettysburg in early October against a key rival with both hoping to keep pace with each other and current top dog Johns Hopkins. Very similar records...F&M at 8-1-2 and Gettysburg at 7-1-2 where SoSs for both imo are OK but do not provide clear insight about the relative strength of these squads. Great opportunity for the Bullets to impress the pollsters.)
Great, great summary of some of the big games. Very true as to WC JHU. FYI and maybe you all know this - 6 out of the 10 teams in Cent. Conf. make the playoffs this year (last year only 5). So only the top two get byes as opposed to the top three last year. WC probably needs to get some sort of result to stay in the picture for the end of the season plus it would be a great boost to its program.
As to W&L and CNU, they have played quite a bit over the years and they have been close most of time. Interesting stats - W&L is 5-2-1 overall but have lost twice and tied once at CNU which is where it is this year.
Concerning the Gettysburg v. F&M, it could be a really really good game. Gettysburg beat F&M last year for the first time in while. I'll be at that game as my son plays for F&M. F&M seems to have worked out how to score now (8-0-1 over the last 9), but needs to have a whole game of good defense (one goal given up in 6 of those 9 games). However, this will be a great test for both. Not the end of the season for either team, but could get a team going in a direction they want to go.
Famous last words - "Soccer is a cruel sport."
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 06, 2022, 02:44:00 PM
D3 is not D1. At this level, it's not about becoming a professional soccer player or "raising the visibility of college soccer," it's about getting an education. As the D3 promotional materials say, "Our student-athletes go pro as doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, business executives, etc." If D1 is competing with the pros to get the best 17- or 18-year-old soccer players in the country, then that's D1's business. D3's business is about giving an opportunity to play to student-athletes who are focused first and foremost upon their education. Also, plane travel is irrelevant in D3, unless you're a student-athlete at a UAA school ... and even then, it's very limited.
D3 is also the level where the schools are (mostly) the smallest and resources are (mostly) the sparsest. Splitting men's soccer into two seasons would have a tumultuous ripple effect upon school resources (facilities, training staff, sports information and game staff, etc.) that are already overextended at many D3 schools. Men's soccer doesn't call the tune to which all of the other sports in D3 athletics must dance. Even football and men's basketball, which are far more popular than men's soccer, don't have that kind of clout on the D3 level. When one sport decides to alter its annual schedule at the D3 level, it throws all of the rest out of whack. We saw that in spades in the spring of 2020 when the fall sports decided in the wake of their Covid cancellations to play partial schedules in the spring on top of all of the spring sports that were playing their normal schedules. I know that a lot of people who participate here on the soccer boards are one-sport-only fans (the football boards have a similarly high percentage of one-sport-only fans), and I think that a lot of them miss just what a delicate juggling act is involved in keeping all of the sports in sync at a lot of D3 institutions.
A split season is wrong for D3 men's soccer for many reasons.
I have no problem as what was said above. i was trying to explain what Sasho was doing with Giamatti at UMD based on what I have observed. I added the split season concept, because that is his big thing to relieve the issues of playing way too many games in such a short time as well as retaining players and/or encourage players to go to college (a path to the professional ranks).
I did not advocate for this as a D3 solution. However, this still does not resolve the issue of 17 plus games in 2 to 2.5 months. May not be an answer and will just be "it is what it is." The concept of college soccer or any sport in college is flawed, but that is another topic.
That being said D1 is semi-professional where the players spend the entire year together traveling, living and eating together with class being an afterthought (only have to have good enough grades to be eligible). Along with the foreign player influx, it is just a huge, huge grind.
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Been saying this for a while now. Start pre-season a week earlier, and end the season a week later.
Forget this near impossible pipe dream of playing a split season. Not going to happen. I will say, maybe this is a solution to something that shouldn't be solved. I don't know, maybe this is a whole lot of self serving for D1...
SC.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 06, 2022, 04:55:40 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 06, 2022, 02:44:00 PM
D3 is not D1. At this level, it's not about becoming a professional soccer player or "raising the visibility of college soccer," it's about getting an education. As the D3 promotional materials say, "Our student-athletes go pro as doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, business executives, etc." If D1 is competing with the pros to get the best 17- or 18-year-old soccer players in the country, then that's D1's business. D3's business is about giving an opportunity to play to student-athletes who are focused first and foremost upon their education. Also, plane travel is irrelevant in D3, unless you're a student-athlete at a UAA school ... and even then, it's very limited.
D3 is also the level where the schools are (mostly) the smallest and resources are (mostly) the sparsest. Splitting men's soccer into two seasons would have a tumultuous ripple effect upon school resources (facilities, training staff, sports information and game staff, etc.) that are already overextended at many D3 schools. Men's soccer doesn't call the tune to which all of the other sports in D3 athletics must dance. Even football and men's basketball, which are far more popular than men's soccer, don't have that kind of clout on the D3 level. When one sport decides to alter its annual schedule at the D3 level, it throws all of the rest out of whack. We saw that in spades in the spring of 2020 when the fall sports decided in the wake of their Covid cancellations to play partial schedules in the spring on top of all of the spring sports that were playing their normal schedules. I know that a lot of people who participate here on the soccer boards are one-sport-only fans (the football boards have a similarly high percentage of one-sport-only fans), and I think that a lot of them miss just what a delicate juggling act is involved in keeping all of the sports in sync at a lot of D3 institutions.
A split season is wrong for D3 men's soccer for many reasons.
I have no problem as what was said above. i was trying to explain what Sasho was doing with Giamatti at UMD based on what I have observed. I added the split season concept, because that is his big thing to relieve the issues of playing way too many games in such a short time as well as retaining players and/or encourage players to go to college (a path to the professional ranks).
I did not advocate for this as a D3 solution. However, this still does not resolve the issue of 17 plus games in 2 to 2.5 months. May not be an answer and will just be "it is what it is." The concept of college soccer or any sport in college is flawed, but that is another topic.
That being said D1 is semi-professional where the players spend the entire year together traveling, living and eating together with class being an afterthought (only have to have good enough grades to be eligible). Along with the foreign player influx, it is just a huge, huge grind.
Oh, come on. This isn't Bama football or UK basketball that we're talking about here. Even in D1, very few players make the pros, and of those few who make the pros, very few will make much money. MLS ain't the Premier League. Given that D1 men's soccer teams can award no more than 9.9 scholarships, and many aren't fully funded (for example, UMass, when my cousin was playing there, had 2 schollies), the overwhelming majority of the players have just as much interest in being able to get a good job following graduation to pay off their loans as do most D3 players, so the idea that all that matters to them is maintaining their eligibility is bogus.
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Posted this in the NESCAC section as well.
NESCAC 2022 Mid-Season Report
Season Overview (through Saturday Oct 1)
It's obvious that the best word to describe this season so far is parity. Certainly the rule change eliminating overtime has caused a significant increase in the number of ties. The rate of ties this season is 50% versus 25% in 2021 regular season and 22% in 2019 regular season. The ratio of close games has also significantly increased. So far this season, only 3 games out of 26 (12%) have been decided by more than 1 goal (and zero games that did not include either Trinity or Bates). In 2021 that ratio was 35% including two 2-0 games featuring the conference regular season champs (Conn) versus the conference tournament champs (Tufts).
The number of goals has actually been very consistent this season versus the prior two seasons, despite losing talented scorers like Giamatti and Lind from Amherst, Braun and Aroh from Tufts, Wood from Hamilton and Gass from Williams.
The teams continue to reload at Center back with relative newcombers like Clivio at Tufts taking over for Paoletta, Ghosh at Hamilton taking over for Eckels and, Ten Cate at Amherst taking the reigns from Johnson and Gitler.
Also the goalies remain outstanding, maybe the strongest position in the NESCAC, with most returning and improving like Devanny at Wesleyan, Grady at Middlebury, Maidenberg at Conn and Lauta at Tufts.
The scarcity in the league is that player who can break down these well organized, athletic defenses with strong technical abilities. Sure some like Franco from Colby, Okorogheye from Amherst, Saint Louis from Middlebury, Yoenas, Djerdjaj and Creus from Conn, Huck from Bowdoin, Rohana from Hamilton and Siglestein and Traynor from Tufts still exist and are proven producers but many have been unsuccessful matching their historical production.
The league remains strong at producing aerial attacks from the striker spot. Look no further than Fellito, leading conference goal scorer, from Williams as well as Hayton-Ruffner from Amherst and Ward from Bowdoin.
I do think one thing worth noting has been the overall improvement over the years in technical ability, especially in the midfield. This improvement has allowed teams to play through the midfield and change the point of attack to create attacking opportunities for the outside players. Conn College and Tufts have won the last three national championships with that approach and no one is doing it currently any better than Hamilton with Margaronis and Peplowski and Wesleyan with Rubinstein and Clarke. Conn with Jaran and Djerdjaj are also sticking with what has made them successful.
It does not surprise me that the two weakest teams so far – Trinity and Bates – each with new coaches – have employed a 4-4-2 system versus the much more common 4-3-3 system used in the NESCAC. Most of these players have grown up within an American youth system that emphasizes a 4-3-3 system that encourages play through the midfield, playing to a target striker and getting the ball wide to attacking, creative players. The 4-4-2 system encourages a more direct approach where possession is frequently sacrificed and the space out wide is not utilized when the weakside, outside midfielder tucks in to help defend. Also a 4-4-2 system really requires two exceptional strikers with target/hold up potential as well as "run in behind" potential. These unicorn players are hard to find at all levels of American soccer, including the NESCAC.
NESCAC Mid-Season Review (part2)
Teams Overview
Amherst
Overall: Playing a 4-3-3 that emphasizes very tough play (lead league in fouls) to create corners and long throws. They continue to execute this strategy masterfully and results with likely improve. Their long throw capability and massive size, with seven players over 6'3" gives them an advantage in this aerial approach. Only NESCAC sides Tufts and Conn have knocked them out of the NCAAs in the last two years.
Players: 23 Okorogheye is probably the most dangerous player in the league in a 1v1 situation with technical ability and speed. He does not see the ball as much as other stars in the league because of the approach and although 7 Murphy has been a good QB in the middle, they miss Giamatti (transfer to Maryand) and Cubeddo (injury?) who were their scorer and playmaker from last year. 28 Hayton-Ruffner provides a nice target and 9 Sung is dangerous moving forward and can create for himself. He has adjusted well to a new role this year. 3 Ten Cate and 33 Kalinauskas are next in a long line of rugged centerbacks and lead the league with 6 yellows.
Substitution strategy: More than most, they stick to their guns with only 15 players who see 25+min in conference play
Summary: Its ugly but it has proven to work...for now. You don't lose a 30+ career scorer and future pro and not miss a beat.
Bates
Overall: One of two teams with rookie coaches going with a 4-2-2 although unlike Trinity they have a strong athletic striker to fight the strong CBc needed in a direct approach. It shows that they have a young rookie coach who might lack the needed respect of his players. They are fighting with Amherst for the league lead in yellows and fouls but do not have Amherst's strength to fight off the set pieces. They argue with the officials an awful lot and even picked up a yellow and a red after a win
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Players: 11 Agunloye is dangerous if they can win the ball in the depleted middle and get it to him wide. He has the change-the-game ability. 24 Szwarcewicz is a traditional target/hold up striker who can also finish. 6 Iwowo is an intimidating force in the middle but is always outmanned 2v3 so has trouble building through the midfield. Center back (like many in the NESCAC) is a strength with vets 8 McKersie and 3 Kovacs who have been multiple year contributors in similar positions and showing more confidence to carry the ball. They have pretty skilled and athletic outside backs especially 2 Niehenke who can overlap and create in the final third, vital to a 4-2-2
Substitution strategy: They stick with their guns and play a pretty vet-focused 14 field players over 25+min in conference play.
Summary: Need to show more discipline in many ways and get some game changing plays from the flank to have more success.
Bowdoin
Overall: A veteran team built like many in the league with a 4-3-3 formation and very strong in the back, up the middle and at striker. They are a strong team in the air with 5 field players over 6'3". They like to use their target striker to get it wide to attacking players. They do not generate a lot of shots or possess through the midfield but are super stingy giving up shots.
Players: 21 Ward is a prototypical target striker in the Haaland mold. This year versus years past he is getting it out wide to a dangerous duo of attacking players 35 Huck and 11 Cabal, who has been active on the score sheet in conference. Huck has my vote for impactful rookie as he gives them a new dimension they have lacked in past with game changing 1v1 capabilities. 8 Juantorena is an imposing presence in the middle, wins everything in the air and distributes nicely when they have possession. 14 Steinberg is also capable of being a QB in the middle. 3 Reid is typical star veteran CB, anchoring the defense for 5 years.
Substitution strategy: They stick with their vets as only 15 field players see 25+minutes
Summary: They are a veteran team and its showing with minimal mistakes. Do they have some new dynamics on the outside to create more against the steller defenses in the NESCAC?
Colby
Overall: They play in a 4-3-3 formation and try desperately to get the ball to their best player, 22 Franco, a dangerous, heady player who works back for the ball or gets it out wide. His dynamic play has allowed them to be competitive in front of a maturing defense and goaltender
Players: In addition to Franco, 9 Fabricant and 7 Wilson form one of the best front threes in the league despite only decent output. 5 Traore, 8 Sullivan and 10 Lemire form a good three some in the middle but tend to be under a lot of pressure and lack the high end possession of some of the other stronger midfield groups. Their leading scorer from last year 21 Rubin has played limited minutes in a different role (injury). They are susceptible in the aerial game in the back as Center backs are not as physical as some other groups. Amherst in particular put them under a lot of pressure in this phase. 25 Simoes provides a dynamic boost off the bench. Also I like how left footed 20 Wood gets up the field as an overlapping outside back.
Substitution strategy: They go a little deeper than some of the other veteran teams with 16 field players seeing 25+ min in conference play
Summary: Franco is the real difference maker that can carry a team but this year he is on every teams scout after a fantastic inaugural season. Their defensive stats are decent but they give up too many opportunities.
Connecticut College
Overall: They play in a 4-3-3 formation and while they lack size across the board, they make up for it with the best set of technical players in the league. In addition, they play the most sophisticated tactical game with a focus on patience, possession and in tense desire to change the point of attack. I am not sure why the results have not been there this season with a loaded roster but every team brings the energy against the defending national champs.
Players: 14 Djerdjaj and 25 Yeonas are the best duo in the conference and are a threat everywhere on the field with or without the ball. 10 Jaran is off to another good start after being one of the most impactful first year players a season ago. He is the engine at CDM that allows them to move the ball out of the back through the midfield. 21 Dutkewych and 5 Cerezo are solid distributors in the back and have filled in well for injured starter 24 Kelesoglu but are a bit susceptible to the aerial attacks of teams like Amherst and Williams. I like the technical capabilities of leftback 6 Horvath Diano who gets into the offensive flow frequently. GK Maidenberg is a great shot stopper but struggles a bit in distribution and has lost some starts to backup.
Substitution strategys: Frankly, it has been a bit erratic. I am not sure if its injuries or other issues but a lot of players are on the roster and a good many have seen time at one time or another. I expected certain players who made big contributions last season like 17 Creus (tied for 2021 team lead in goals in limited role), 10 Robles, 13 Scoffone and 6 Horvath Diano to grow into larger roles but they have appeared to stagnate. 15 field players have gotten the core minutes (25+ in conference play)
Summary: The Camels need to match every one's energy level for the rest of the season to get out of this funk. The screaming on the sidelines from the coaching staff seems to imply the effort is not there but they still have high end talent all over the field. Get healthy and make a run.
Hamilton
Overall: Off to a great start implementing a system that emphasizes possession, playing through the midfield, and changing the point of attack. Sophomore starters are maturing nicely and this squad will be challenging for a top NESCAC position this year and probably beyond.
Players: 10 Margaronis and 27 Peplowski are the engines in the middle. They bring strong technical skills and high IQ to implement a possession-oriented system and most importantly, they have made the game changing plays when given the opportunity. Four 1-goal victories puts them atop the league and near top of the country. 4 Ghosh has matured in only his second year to a top tier, ball control-oriented CB. He initiates the offense through patient possession and crafty distribution. He is much more comfortable on the ball and decision making versus his rookie season. They still need to defend the high fliers like Amherst and Williams who bring great size. They have no contributors over 6'3". 9 Hawthorne, target striker, and 7 Rouhana, attacking wide player, help capitalize on the possession.
Substitution strategy: More than any in the league, they go with their starters. Only 13 field players average over 25+min in conference play.
Summary: Copying Tufts and Conn is a good strategy, getting players that fit the mold is even better. No longer considered underdogs. Lets see how they handle the back half of the season but an NCAA birth looks all but assured.
NESCAC Mid-Season Review (part 3)
Middlebury
Overall: They bring great size and intensity to every contest and they are stingy in terms of giving up chances and goals. They are actually quite versatile. They have the size and speed to play direct but also the talent in central midfield and outside to possess and get the ball to the flanks, either to wingers or overlapping defenders especially on the left side.
Players: The left side attacking is dangerous with 23 St Louis, a dangerous attacking 1v1 player that is a game changer and 19 Lund, probably the best attacking wingback not named Daly in the NESCAC. 7 has emerged as their QB in the middle after a limited role as a rookie as he comes deep to receive the ball and build possession. 11 Payne has been active after a limited role last year. They probably have the best and most experienced center back combo with 15 MacFarlane, who we have watched as a starter for 5 years and 13 Madden, a UNH transfer. Teams will have limited success attacking this group through the middle. GK Grady is well know nationally and lives up to his reputation with size and instincts.
Substitution strategy: They focus on their core, like other top teams, with only 13 field players averaging over 25+minutes per game in conference play. I am surprised that 12 Powers, a strong central player, has not seen his role grow after showing promise as a first and second year player.
Summary: After a trip to the final 8 last season, only to lose to bitter rival Amherst, in a game they outplayed the Mammoths, they will be looking to break through this year and take advantage of that stingy defense. You have to go back to 2017 since they have lost a game by more than one goal. They need their "game changers" to step up and make it happen to finish strong.
Trinity
Overall: The growing pains continue with a new coach, a new system and players in new positions. Attempting a 4-4-2, more direct style but seem to lack the striker talent and overlapping outside backs to take advantage of this system. They just do not attack the width with any regularity.
Players: Like many NESCAC teams, the heart and sole is 4 year centerback starter 2 Moran who is a good defender and an aerial threat. 6 Donaldson has the game changing potential as well at the QB potential in the middle but is always over matched in the middle, lacking a partner with similar skill set. Where is 23 Bronson (injured?) Top returning playmakers, 7 Traynor, who shows 1v1 game changing abilities, and 20 Sarieh who shows possession and finishing potential, have had limited roles (injuries?). 15 Kaldor and 4 Merlin, who showed promise as attacking outside backs are now in different roles. 14 Mangiafico a former starter at CB, now an attacking outside back. GK Simoes, a bit undersized, has continued his strong play but under fire.
Substitution strategy: In addition to the 4-4-2, this strategy has been a head scratcher. After returning most of impact players from 2021 squad, 20 field players have seen over 25+ min of time in conference play. Injuries? Lack of confidence? Or just focused on future generations?
Summary: If the focus continues on a direct approach, an entirely new system with many in new positions, and mass, hockey-like, substitution patterns it will be a long time before they pick up their first NESCAC win and gain respectability.
Tufts
Overall: They say dynasties do not rebuild, they reload. While Tufts exhibits depth as most positions and have outplayed many opponents, they are having trouble finding the net. They play a fantastic 4-3-3 possession-oriented approach generally with strong midfielders, most are new comers to the role and at times have played more direct and have not created as many chances as they have in the past, particularly on the flanks. They do look to get their overlapping backs into the flow probably better than anyone in the league.
Players: 5 Clivio and GK Lauta man an impressive defensive core but have given up more goals than in the past. 3 Daly remains the engine, an attacking right back that they look to spring frequently and it works. Like 19 Lund at Middlebury, he is their leading scorer. Returning forwards 11 Traynor, 10 Sigelstein and 23 Feigen are creating chances but need to convert more frequently for Tufts to reach potential. 2 Gerkin has filled in nicely as QB in the middle after the lost of multiple all league players. Newcomer 29 Yanez has dynamic, game changing potential in center midfield. I am surprised 23 Welsh has played limited minutes as a 5th year contributor, is he injured or has he been outplayed by newcomer 16 Feinberg.
Substitution strategy: Depth has been one of Tufts calling cards and you see it with significant contributions from relative newcomers like 2 Gerkin and 29 Yanez. They do go solidly with their core as only 14 field players average more than 25+ min per game in conference but another 4 average more than 15.
Summary: Tufts will need to ramp up their offensive production over the next couple weeks to solidify a spot at the top of the league. If they do, they are always dangerous because of great goaltending, great defense and a team with potential to possess for long stretches. This year is no different although a lot of experience has been lost especially in the midfield.
Wesleyan
Overall: it is no surprise to see the early success of this skill-based team. Last year as the 5th team in the NESCAC, they were left off the NCAA ballot to many's surprise. Their 4-3-3 system of technically strong players is designed to work the ball through the talented and maturing midfield. They have produced chances and converted including 16 goals over a 4 game stretch including 4 against conference foe Colby.
Players: They have spread the scoring out across a number of players. While no one player commands the attention, 20 Burbage, 9 Harmaty, 10 Ruehlemann,and 27 Burd all are comfortable checking back to receive the ball at their feet and make quick decisions in the final third to either attack or make quick combo plays in a similar fashion to Conn. 8 Rubenstein is the QB and has taken on an increased role over his 4 years. He can both attack and create. He is parterned well with 11 Clarke who had a big role last season and 4 Hartfeld who looked solid last season as a first year role player but now showing more confidence. GK Devanny is very strong.
Substitution strategy: They are more expansive in their player pool than some as 16 field players play more than 25+ minutes including newcomers like solid defender 24 Geballe.
Summary: Can they continue their strong run to the top of the league and represent the NESCAC with a deep run in the tournament? The program has never been past the sweet 16. Maintaining execution is key because they will not win ugly like a lot of teams.
Williams
Overview: While playing the less common 4-2-2, the have the athleticism up front to make it work. They play a more direct style to try to create deep throws and corners to take advantage of their strength in the box. This approach has had limited success in getting offensive results as they do not generate a lot of chances or goals from the run of play but that has been offset by a very organized defensive approach. They have had 2 scoreless ties with Amherst and Colby where they generated only 6 total shots on goal, mostly through the air.
Players: The strategy to let 13 Felitto dominate an aerial focused game can get results. He is very athletic and judges the ball well with position versatility. He can also get behind the D. 7 Song is also a threat as is 6 Boardman, two skilled players who are dangerous when facing the defender and attacking the goal. They do use the width in this formation by getting their 2 outside backs 29 Zhang, a left footer and a newcomer, and 17 Gibson, also a freshman who brings forward skills. Its critical in a 4-2-2 format to get skilled outside backs up the field to take advantage of the width and Williams does a good job of it. CB 11 Gara Grady has increased his role significantly, is really strong in the air and defends well.
Substitution strategy: They go deep into their bench frequently with 18 players contributing 25+ minutes in conference play.
Overall: Like some others, their defensive prowess is keeping them in games but will need to increase the offensive production as their schedule gets tougher over the latter half.
Highlight game of the season
While its hard not to choose two NCAA Elite 8 revenge games from the first half of the season, I will go with Wesleyan over Colby 4-3. This game featured a "coming out party" for Wesleyan's offense as they generated an unreal 15 shots on net but needed 2 goals in the last 15 minutes to prevail. On offensive explosion, a rarity in the NESCAC. First time they have scored 4 goals in a conference game since 2017
Games/Dates to watch in the 2nd Half
I will go with two late seasons contests since it will be likely make or break for several teams. The date will be Tuesday October 25th when the conference seeds will all be on the line.
Williams visits Middlebury – It may not be a high scoring contest with defensive strength on defensive strength. Can St Louis make a game breaking play? Or will Filetto jump to the stars to convert a header into the game winner?
Wesleyan visits Conn College – since I live in this area, I will be at this game to watch former regular season champ against current regular season champ(?) in probably the finest display of technical soccer that the conference has to offer.
I am on the road today, so posting this early. 10:00 am @PaulNewman and I go around on a variety of topics.... including Goaltending... or is it Goalie-ing?
The New Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txm1OCX81tk)
Hey @jknezek, any interest in joining next week? Perhaps have a discussion about the polls etc?
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 07, 2022, 08:03:30 AM
I am on the road today, so posting this early. 10:00 am @PaulNewman and I go around on a variety of topics.... including Goaltending... or is it Goalie-ing?
Definitely goaltending. Also goalkeeper or keeper and not goalie. Hockey, lacrosse and field hockey - goalie. :)
I've always preferred "netminder". It sounds so British and tidy. ;)
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 07, 2022, 09:47:07 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 07, 2022, 08:03:30 AM
I am on the road today, so posting this early. 10:00 am @PaulNewman and I go around on a variety of topics.... including Goaltending... or is it Goalie-ing?
Definitely goaltending. Also goalkeeper or keeper and not goalie. Hockey, lacrosse and field hockey - goalie. :)
Goalkeeping. Better to NOT refer to it as goaltending, to avoid confusion with a foul in basketball and also in American football when a player swats away a ball before it goes over the goalpost.
I was more used to being called "crazy" in front of whatever variation was used (crazy goalie, crazy goalkeeper, crazy crazy.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 07, 2022, 10:46:01 AM
I was more used to being called "crazy" in front of whatever variation was used (crazy goalie, crazy goalkeeper, crazy crazy.)
:) :)
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 06, 2022, 02:50:00 PM
Apologies if this was already covered but does anyone know why MIT @ Brandeis was cancelled last night?
Someone at Brandeis (1st Jewish Supreme Court justice) scheduled a game on Yom Kippur the Holiest day of the Jewish calendar.
More to the point, one-third of the Brandeis student population is Jewish. Scheduling a Brandeis sporting event on Yom Kippur was therefore a significant oversight.
It's interesting that the game was canceled rather than postponed, though. It's not as though there are travel issues, since the schools are ten miles apart. I guess that the two coaches couldn't work out a makeup date that satisfied both of them.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 06, 2022, 02:51:57 PM
Saturday
11:00 am -- Carnegie Mellon @ Brandeis (Must win for both? CMU is coming off a home loss to NYU and after Brandeis have Chicago on the road. The Tartans cannot afford an 0-3 start in the UAA. Brandeis has had a disappointing season thus far outside of a win over Babson and in the Judges' first UAA outing got smoked by CWRU.)
12:00 pm -- Emory @ Chicago (Emory is also 0-1 in the UAA thanks to a loss at home versus Wash U. The Eagles desperately need an upset win over the Maroons to ignite a turnaround, but I don't see that happening. Chicago probably will pick up a blemish over the next couple of weeks, although peeking at the rest of their schedule there's a fair chance the Maroons could run the table.)
12:00 pm -- Colby @ Middlebury (Midd needs to build off of recent momentum and especially at home should snare a win. Colby, coming off a string of draws with Williams, Amherst, and at Tufts, has reason to be confident. Not quite prepared to put an upset alert tag on this one, but it is tempting.)
12:00 pm -- Oneonta St @ Brockport St (Oneonta is starting to show some kinks in the armor with a loss at home to Geneseo and a draw at home with Potsdam. Meanwhile, Brockport may be closing in on Pool C range at 7-1-4 and 5-0 in conference. The Golden Eagles still have a couple of tough games to close the regular season, but a win here would put them in an attractive position, not to mention just regular 'ol growing confidence that they can stand up to the big boys. I'm gonna guess that pedigree will prevail, even on the road...Oneonta 3, Brockport 1.)
1:00 pm -- MSOE @ Dominican (This one has lost the luster it never had after MSOE drops one to Concordia (Wis) and Dominican stumbles to a home loss to NACC mid-table Marian.)
1:00 pm -- Kenyon @ Wabash (In 2014 the then Lords were 12-0 and #2 in the country behind only Messiah but a small crack in the foundation was detectable on MRI scan after escaping a blemish at Denison with a last minute 2OT goal. The Little Giants had no interest in contributing to Kenyon euphoria and earned a 1-0 upset at Mud Hollow Stadium in Crawfordsville off a header served up from a 2nd half corner. Kenyon didn't lose again until the Sweet 16. Wabash in 2022 is 9-2-1 in the context of a relatively soft schedule, and will be pumped up to grab a major signature win that would go a long way towards insuring a place in the NCAC playoffs. Speaking of which, the Little Giants likely have stewed over last year's NCAC semi in Gambier where they got thumped by the tune of 8-0. I am contractually prohibited from placing an upset alert here but others might be interested.)
2:00 pm -- Conn Coll @ Williams – (Great dynamics at play in Williamstown. Defending national champ searching to revive last year's form going against a resurgent Williams highly invested in putting the Ephs back where they are supposed to be...at or at least near the top of the NESCAC standings. I deem this game prediction-wise uncallable.)
2:00 pm -- Vassar @ Skidmore (Another excellent LL match that will be over by the time I try to tune in, as some of these conferences like the LL and SUNYAC seem to have weekday 4:00 games and then early-mid-afternoon weekend fixtures. These teams are similar in that they probably fall just barely below the line of most believing they are really good and not just good.)
3:00 -- Wesleyan @ Amherst (The Wesleyan dream season is in jeopardy. Two straight losses after soaring up the polls, one to Midd that was very understandable, and then a second not so understandable unless pollsters are inclined to offer a mulligan because of harsh weather. The pollsters won't do that because they'll say they'd be setting a precedent for everybody. Amherst needs this game very badly as well. Otherwise, the Mammoths will find themselves drifting around in very unfamiliar waters.)
4:00 pm -- Hopkins @ Washington College (Last call at the Chestertown Saloon. The Shoreman cannot afford another loss, especially if they want a decent chance of maintaining a top 4 Centennial finish. I'm tempted to go with an upset alert, but it's seeming more and likely that Wash College simply doesn't have the horses this season. As for Hopkins, the pundits want more...like a 3-0 or 4-0 victory.)
4:00 pm -- CWRU @ NYU (Sneaky huge game. The winner, should there be one, will be feeling really good about ending the regular season strong. Vital game to bolster hopes for a potential Poll C bid.)
6:00 pm – W&L @ Christopher Newport (I just don't trust CNU in a big spot. Sometimes the Captains seem almost like a poor man's version of other teams that chronically disappoint me. I feel a bit better about this one having some real juice because CNU rebounded so well from the Messiah game. Not a must-win for W&L but very important to keep momentum growing, especially after just drawing with rival Lynchburg.)
7:00 pm -- Calvin @ Hope (Toss out the record books for this one.......and Calvin will still win.)
7:00 pm -- F&M @ Gettysburg (A Saturday game under the lights in Gettysburg in early October against a key rival with both hoping to keep pace with each other and current top dog Johns Hopkins. Very similar records...F&M at 8-1-2 and Gettysburg at 7-1-2 where SoSs for both imo are OK but do not provide clear insight about the relative strength of these squads. Great opportunity for the Bullets to impress the pollsters.)
7:00 pm -- Rowan @ Montclair St (Rowan is 5-4-3 and seemingly living through their season slipping away from them. I thought the monster schedule might pay dividends as the season progressed but a 6-0 loss to NJ City ended that thesis. Rowan either starts a 5 or 6 game win streak here or they're probably done. Montclair hasn't been spectacular either, but they still are a heavy favorite in the NJAC and in good position.)
10:00 pm -- Pomona-Pitzer @ C-M-S (Kuiper time.)
Not sure what is up, but the Pomona-Pitzer @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps game (AKA the "Sixth Street Derby") is listed as cancelled on both school's websites with no explanation. The two teams' soccer fields are just a few minutes away from each other across Sixth Street, so it's easy to reschedule, but the available Wed/Sat dates are all gone before the SCIAC playoffs. They are also scheduled to play Oct 22, but it would be very odd to give up a conference game and they are supposed to play twice.
2019 Final 4 participant Centre College is 0-9-2.
Centre has gone from being Colonel Chamberlain to being Colonel Klink.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 07, 2022, 07:34:51 PM
2019 Final 4 participant Centre College is 0-9-2.
Gee! I remember a NJ kid on that team, his father told me he was going to a game in Ohio and for two week he was all over the place.
Southwestern on verge of an upset of St Thomas in the gorgeous little city of Georgetown, TX.
Seems like every Texas field I see looks great, and fast. One of the announcers said the field is very hard.
Southwestern 1-0 Final
The announcers said stay tuned for broadcast of the nightcap Southwestern women vs Trinity. I don't know if that is a rare as I think but doubleheaders are such a great idea especially in places where they can draw from the community....two mens games, two womens, one men and one womens...nice atmosphere on a warm Texas night.
double headers are frequent, most times the women play first.
Quote from: camosfan on October 07, 2022, 09:45:03 PM
double headers are frequent, most times the women play first.
Frequent for night doubleheaders?
The Emory at Chicago game tomorrow, due to a home football game, will be the first time Chicago will be playing a home game on the Stagg field grass pitch. An interesting side note is that CB Griffin Wada ( for unknown reasons) did not play in the second half in the win at Carthage on Wednesday.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 07, 2022, 08:57:55 PM
Southwestern on verge of an upset of St Thomas in the gorgeous little city of Georgetown, TX.
Seems like every Texas field I see looks great, and fast. One of the announcers said the field is very hard.
Southwestern 1-0 Final
The announcers said stay tuned for broadcast of the nightcap Southwestern women vs Trinity. I don't know if that is a rare as I think but doubleheaders are such a great idea especially in places where they can draw from the community....two mens games, two womens, one men and one womens...nice atmosphere on a warm Texas night.
They've had several doubleheaders in the SCIAC already this year with the men's and women's teams from a school traveling together to take on their counterparts from the other school. Both Redlands and Cal Lutheran have hosted doubleheaders on Sat night games recently.
Quote from: 4samuy on October 07, 2022, 10:35:04 PM
The Emory at Chicago game tomorrow, due to a home football game, will be the first time Chicago will be playing a home game on the Stagg field grass pitch. An interesting side note is that CB Griffin Wada ( for unknown reasons) did not play in the second half in the win at Carthage on Wednesday.
Not quite. Just the first time on home grass since 2017, which was also against Emory. That game saw Emory win 3-0 as the Maroons were out of sorts on the surface. Coach Babst avoided grass like the plague after that game, as he believed the surface was a mental barrier for his team. Which I'm inclined to agree with. Just the previous year in 2016, the Maroons saw their undefeated season come to an end in one of the most brutal games I've ever seen. UChicago was ranked #1 at the time with the best defense in the country (15 shutouts) and gave up 3 bad goals that day. Wind gusts well over 30 MPH played havoc with every ball put into the air, including the deciding goal, which saw UChicago's GK send an ill-conceived clearance straight into the jet stream. The ball basically came straight back down (maybe traveled 7-10 yards at most) and Redlands scored easily. Lopez had the potential tying goal sent to his head in the final minute of the game, but his diving header smacked the post and bounced away.
Before 2017, UChicago played on the Stagg grass all the time, that was their primary field for years.
Blue jay
My bad. Should have made my point more clear that I was speaking of this year only. I remember that Redlands game vividly. I was standing right at the goal line when Lopez had the point blank header that he somehow pushed off the post that would have tied the game. Unreal.
Welp...the thesis that currently there are two great teams remains intact. There may be a few very good teams, and another couple of handfuls of good teams who could become very good, but right now Chicago and Messiah (pick your own order between those two) are head and shoulders above everyone else.
ALL of the teams below them have shown vulnerability, some more than others, but high rankings will be intact for some because so many others have faltered.
Watched the last 20-25 minutes of Hopkins and Wash Coll. I don't know the details about Hopkins' players and of course the coach knows better than the rest of us, but I just don't see how 1-0 wins are sustainable especially to win six straight in the tournament. On video looked like Hopkins got a terrible PK call against them but when you play the margin that tight you are at risk for a bad call, a bad bounce, a misplay, etc. The #4 or #5 team in the country shouldn't have to basically park the bus to try and maintain a 1 goal lead against a team (even a good one) struggling around .500.
I've already talked about Kenyon. Stevens has shown some cracks. Wesleyan is in a nosedive. Hamilton drew at home with Bates. I do trust Calvin and North Park a fair amount, but I can't put them with the top two. No one is gonna want to hear this, but, sitting here TODAY, after the top two, I confess I'd probably trust the NESCAC foursome of Amherst, Tufts, Midd, and Conn the most of anyone else. Let's see what W&L does. They may be as good of a third pick as anyone.
Big win for CWRU at NYU.
Only in D3....W&L player doing a throw in with two dogs yipping at his ankles.
Conn @ Midd tomorrow now the game we would have predicted....a big one. Should be a fantasic game.
Thinking beyond rankings, for all the teeth gnashing over the decline of traditional powers, it's interesting to note that some of the traditional powers are returning to their normal place at the top of their conference standings in the early stages of conference play. For example, out west, Trinity (TX) is leading the SCAC, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps is on top of the SCIAC (although there are a number of teams close behind), and Williamette is on top of the Northwest with Pacific Lutheran right behind them (and at 10-2 overall currently, in position for a possible bid even if they don't win their conference).
Quote from: Kuiper on October 08, 2022, 06:41:59 PM
Thinking beyond rankings, for all the teeth gnashing over the decline of traditional powers, it's interesting to note that some of the traditional powers are returning to their normal place at the top of their conference standings in the early stages of conference play. For example, out west, Trinity (TX) is leading the SCAC, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps is on top of the SCIAC (although there are a number of teams close behind), and Williamette is on top of the Northwest with Pacific Lutheran right behind them (and at 10-2 overall currently, in position for a possible bid even if they don't win their conference).
Exactly. And OWU will finish first or second in the NCAC.
Some key results...
Brockport 2, Oneonta 0
CMU 1, Brandeis 0
CWRU 2, NYU 1
F&M 1, Gettysburg 1
Montclair 3, Rowan 0
W&L 0, CNU 0
Conn Coll 1, Williams 0
Midd 3, Colby 1
Amherst 2, Wesleyan 0
Cortland 3, Buff St 0
SLU 4, RIT 0
Vassar 2, Skidmore 2
Kenyon 1, Wabash 0
Denison 0, Oberlin 0
Stevens 1, Wilkes 0
Emerson 3, MIT 1
Drew 0, Moravian 0
Nebraska Wesleyan 3, Luther 3
JCU 3, Marietta 0
Calvin 1, Hope 0
Babson 3, CG 0
ONU 4, Capital 3
Hobart 1, Clarkson 0
Bates 2, Hamilton 2
J&W 1, Norwich 0
UW-Platteville 2, Concordia (Wis) 1
Quote from: Kuiper on October 07, 2022, 05:37:48 PM
Not sure what is up, but the Pomona-Pitzer @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps game (AKA the "Sixth Street Derby") is listed as cancelled on both school's websites with no explanation. The two teams' soccer fields are just a few minutes away from each other across Sixth Street, so it's easy to reschedule, but the available Wed/Sat dates are all gone before the SCIAC playoffs. They are also scheduled to play Oct 22, but it would be very odd to give up a conference game and they are supposed to play twice.
I don't have more information about why the Pomona-Pitzer - C-M-S game was cancelled tonight, but it appears that it is being recorded as a C-M-S forfeit. The following message is on the SCIAC men's soccer standings page:
Quote*Pomona-Pitzer awarded an additional Win not reflected above toward tournament seeding as a result of the cancelled 10/8 game vs. CMS.
That means that P-P jumps Redlands and is tied with Cal Lutheran for the fourth playoff spot right now.
In other action, Occidental crushed Whittier 5-1. It was a dominant performance against a team that has played other top SCIAC teams closely this year. Oxy moves into first for now and is certainly on a roll.
Cal Lutheran and La Verne tied 1-1. That's not a good result for Cal Lutheran. They;ve stumbled a bit since being in first place not that long ago.
Chapman continued their high scoring ways and beat Cal Tech 7-2. Between Wednesday's game against Pomona-Pitzer and this game, Chapman has scored 11 goals in two games.
Redlands beat UC Santa Cruz in a non-conference game 2-1.
Sunday
12:00 pm -- Paywallville Yellowjackets @ Wash U -- Paywallville is their usual 5-2-2 heading to their usual 9-4-3 heading to their usual NCAA bid. To be precise, the extortionists finished 9-3-4 last year, made the tournament, and were summarily dispatched 4-0 by the honest and devout Calvin Knights. Wash U? Who knows? For a couple of weeks there was a national missing program BOLO alert. Now the Bears are 5-3, still two standard deviations below the radar, but 1-0 in the UAA. You know it's bad when as a parent alum you are rooting for a team you care nothing about.
2:00 pm -- Conn Coll @ Middlebury -- Most underrated big game of the season and may end up being one of the best. I love this matchup. The only blemish will be the apparent absence of Conn's midfield magic-man, Rye Jaran, whose free kick skills and dangerous set-up plays would help combat the size and set-piece prowess of the Panthers. Will this one come down to the battle in the midfield or between the pipes, with the latter featuring D3soccer.com GKOY, AA and NESCAC all-time great Grady versus the freshly tapped NCAA PK specialist stopper Silvester? Very surprised that at least while Jaran is out that Creus hasn't racked up more minutes, the latter being one of the more dangerous offensive threats in the conference.
2:30 pm -- Colby @ Hamilton -- UPSET ALERT! -- Facing a team on a back to back you always hope that team got a result the first day so that they are fat and happy on the bus ride to Clinton, NY. Yes, Clinton, NY as several centuries ago the bigwigs at Hamilton somehow lost naming rights to their town with Colgate. Of course, if you read the college review books when your kid is a NEPSAC prepster, they basically are the same school. Pass my Brooks Brothers button-down please. This is a massive game for.....Hamilton. Coming off a draw with Bates and seeing what has happened in a very short period of time to fellow (previously) white-hot Wesleyan, the Continentals need an outright win. Colby is a hard to read 3-2-6 (sounds like a Keno number...or zip code) and the White Mules are determined to get something out of their five day horse-and-carriage excursion through the Berkshires, Poconos, and Catskills on the way out and then back home via the Green Mountains, Appalachian trail, and pristine, untouched and brutally tough terrain of western-mid-northeastern Maine. Seriously, Waterville, ME to Clinton, NY is no joke. Take a picture of those NESCAC standings from a week ago to compare with three weeks from now.
2:30 -- Bowdoin @ Amherst -- (A very good Bowdoin team is quietly 8-1-1 (3-1-1), but aren't you pretty sure the Mammoths will find a way to snag a 1-0 or 2-1 win? I am.)
3:00 -- St Thomas (TX) @ Texas Lutheran -- Can St Thomas stop the bleeding after an altitude draw and loss to Southwestern? Getting a result at Gustafson Field in Seguin won't be easy as the Bulldogs look to avenge an earlier 2-1 defeat to St Thomas in Houston. Amidst the vague fog of Region X (at least for us Easterners), I can't say who is better between Texas Lutheran at 6-3-3 and Cal Lutheran at another zip code record of 4-2-5, except to say that both are capable of beating a favored conference foe.
4:30 -- St John's @ St Olaf -- There are at least two Collegevilles in D3. The Johnnies of St John's are one of them. Don't look now but the Oles are 4-1 in the conference, only trailing GAC. St Olaf needs this win over the rival Johnnies to set up St Olaf's two match combo of @GAC on 10/15 and @UW-Platteville on 10/17. The Johnnies are 5-1-3 (2-1-1) but still may be dazed from the 5-0 shellacking at the hands of GAC as they had to settle for a 1-1 draw with Augsburg in the their last outing.
Watch alert...Western CT moves to 14-0 and plays @Drew on Tuesday.
Watched all of Conn @ Midd...important win for Midd and ultimately that's what counts, but was disappointed in both. Disappointed in Conn for lack of discipline earning a red card forcing Conn to play entire 2nd half with 10 men. Feels like Burk is a little out of sync with his team and searching for players and lineups on the fly and/or team is a little out of sync with Burk. Creus, one of Conn's most dangerous players who almost (should have) scored in the 1st half did not get a minute in the 2nd half and did not appear injured. Absolutely love Yeonas who I thought was best player on the pitch, but he is getting run into the ground with repeated 90 min efforts. Very tough for him with Jaran out, but the kid almost never loses the ball and usually makes a positive play getting into space or playing a teammate into space. I have a feeling Conn is going to feel very disappointed with the result. As for Midd, you're playing against 10 men for an entire half and put almost no effort into getting a 2nd goal except for last 5 minutes when Conn had a 5'3 outside middie playing centerfield in the back as Conn pushed everyone forward. Hopefully someone will explain differently, but almost seemed like a cynical approach from Midd and they easily could have been stuck with a draw. St Louis had one moment of magic where he rocketed a shot Silvester managed to save, but otherwise was mostly invisible. The defense and goalkeeping are rock solid but give me at least a little dynamic offensive play, please.
Hamilton scores late to salvage a home draw with Colby. Good not to lose but back to back home draws with Bates and Colby not great. But at least these teams were going for it, moving up and down the pitch and both teams having great chances in the final minutes. The Ehrenfreund kid is fantastic...the next Yeonas in the conference. Not sure why Colby kept trying him because he just kept ending up with the ball and making penetrating plays.
And then of course another 0-0 affair with Bowdoin @ Amherst. Bowdoin has a reputation for packing in but they also were going for it. So I might give best result of the day all things considered to Bowdoin.
Didn't watch but the Wesleyan meltdown continues....up 3-0 on Bates, fall behind 4-3 and have to score just to level at 4-4 which is where things ended. Credit to Bates for getting back to back draws on the road versus Hamilton and Wes. After needing a 89th minute goal to tie Hamilton, Wes lost 3 in a row (albeit two of those to Midd and Amherst) and now draw with Bates.
Meet the Rhodes Lynx....the new Sewanee. Meanwhile, Centre drops to 0-10-2.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2022, 04:57:46 PM
Watch alert...Western CT moves to 14-0 and plays @Drew on Tuesday.
Watched all of Conn @ Midd...important win for Midd and ultimately that's what counts, but was disappointed in both. Disappointed in Conn for lack of discipline earning a red card forcing Conn to play entire 2nd half with 10 men. Feels like Burk is a little out of sync with his team and searching for players and lineups on the fly and/or team is a little out of sync with Burk. Creus, one of Conn's most dangerous players who almost (should have) scored in the 1st half did not get a minute in the 2nd half and did not appear injured. Absolutely love Yeonas who I thought was best player on the pitch, but he is getting run into the ground with repeated 90 min efforts. Very tough for him with Jaran out, but the kid almost never loses the ball and usually makes a positive play getting into space or playing a teammate into space. I have a feeling Conn is going to feel very disappointed with the result. As for Midd, you're playing against 10 men for an entire half and put almost no effort into getting a 2nd goal except for last 5 minutes when Conn had a 5'3 outside middie playing centerfield in the back as Conn pushed everyone forward. Hopefully someone will explain differently, but almost seemed like a cynical approach from Midd and they easily could have been stuck with a draw. St Louis had one moment of magic where he rocketed a shot Silvester managed to save, but otherwise was mostly invisible. The defense and goalkeeping are rock solid but give me at least a little dynamic offensive play, please.
Hamilton scores late to salvage a home draw with Colby. Good not to lose but back to back home draws with Bates and Colby not great. But at least these teams were going for it, moving up and down the pitch and both teams having great chances in the final minutes. The Ehrenfreund kid is fantastic...the next Yeonas in the conference. Not sure why Colby kept trying him because he just kept ending up with the ball and making penetrating plays.
And then of course another 0-0 affair with Bowdoin @ Amherst. Bowdoin has a reputation for packing in but they also were going for it. So I might give best result of the day all things considered to Bowdoin.
You don't know how spot on you are, Paul Newman, regarding out-of-sync Conn. 15 minutes to go before the game, when asked for starters, Burke said he didn't know yet!
No cynicism from Midd. Panthers are thin right now with injuries (starters Nelson and Payne out, top sub Sloan out today as well) Back-to-back days, Chea (#7) plays so hard and was only going to go a half. Luxury to take St. Louis off the pitch for the last 20+ minutes. (And he wasn't invisible to Camel defenders, drawing 2 or 3 just about every time the ball came near him.) Speedy frosh Gavin Randolph had two golden opportunities to widen Panther lead; turned away both times. He'll learn and will bury them in the future. Believe me, Midd was playing for 3 points.
Conn. 15 minutes to go before the game, when asked for starters, Burke said he didn't know yet!
You should be able to tell from the players on the field warming up and divided into two groups. So he was less than truthful there.
Bucket, don't get me wrong as Midd accomplished what they needed to do, appear to be the best positioned NESCAC at the moment, and I will "vote" the Panthers as the highest ranked NESCAC. But I hope you aren't talking about the last 5 minutes when Conn did the equivalent of pulling the goalie in hockey and Midd then had several chances they should have finished. Maybe you're talking about a chance or two the frosh had in the 1st half. For the first 40 minutes of the 2nd half Midd looked like they were the team with 10 men defending a 1-0 lead and Conn dominated possession and mostly in the Midd half. Midd also was fortunate to have a ball cleared off the line. Anyway, like I said, I'm sure they know what they're doing better than I do....just sharing my observations as a viewer. And at least St Louis should be fresh for Eastern Nazarene!
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2022, 06:52:21 PM
Bucket, don't get me wrong as Midd accomplished what they needed to do, appear to be the best positioned NESCAC at the moment, and I will "vote" the Panthers as the highest ranked NESCAC. But I hope you aren't talking about the last 5 minutes when Conn did the equivalent of pulling the goalie in hockey and Midd then had several chances they should have finished. Maybe you're talking about a chance or two the frosh had in the 1st half. For the first 40 minutes of the 2nd half Midd looked like they were the team with 10 men defending a 1-0 lead and Conn dominated possession and mostly in the Midd half. Midd also was fortunate to have a ball cleared off the line. Anyway, like I said, I'm sure they know what they're doing better than I do....just sharing my observations as a viewer. And at least St Louis should be fresh for Eastern Nazarene!
I also think that Conn is so disciplined and patient in building possession that at times it looks like the other team is getting 10 players behind the ball.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2022, 04:57:46 PM
Watch alert...Western CT moves to 14-0 and plays @Drew on Tuesday.
Drew will be without their ace striker Kiernan who was red carded against Moravian on Saturday.
Paul Neuman I just wanted to say you hit the game of the NESCAC of the day was Middlebury v Conn College. However I think the Camels are playing with a little championship hang over. Playing with some uncontrolled play. The red card was just plain bad choice from the camels defender. Middlebury played well enough to hold on with the early goal. But I am not sure holding on when the camels are down a man is a complement to Middlebury.
Amherst v Bowdion tie
Colby v Hamilton tie
I wish that the NCAA would have left the OT rules alone. I really think Bowdoin was putting on a lot of pressure in the end of the game OT might not have been good for Amherst In the game Hamilton looked like they were set to win in OT.
Another team that I was considering to move into the top 25 was Sewanee until they lost to Hendrix and Rhodes this weekend.
Trinity TX win today will get them into the top 25
Looking to UW Eau Claire dropping to games this week will drop the Independent school out of the top 25.
Not looking to see much movement in the top 5 Messiah and Chicago look like they are clicking in every aspects of their games. As long as they stay healthy and away from taking a team for granted they are going to stay in the top
Not to change the topic but I wanted to make sure that all members are aware of the tragic passing of a York College PA player this weekend. That is way their game with Mary Washington was postponed. Keep the team and family in your thoughts and prayers
https://d3soccer.com/top25/men/2022/week6
As we know the USC rankings aren't always as aligned with D3Soccer or Massey, but this latest poll for D3Soccer has a few head scratchers for me...but note that for the most part I think the poll is fair and reasonable until the final few RV spots. Who cares right? But it gives us something to discuss ;D
Loras RV? A 6-5 record including a 6-0 loss to Luther last week. Who is giving Loras 3 votes???
I know this is nitty gritty stuff at the end of the poll but shocked that anybody would give them votes. There are about 30 other teams you could and should replace them with.
St. Olaf is another one RV that could be questioned. 8-4 record and 2 losses to Chicago and NP which is nothing to be down about but then a loss to a decent Wartburg side and another loss that you should be down about against Carleton more recently. The only win that stands out is UW-EAU (which some are skeptical about). I don't understand how this team can RV over 20-30 other teams with less losses, similar blemishes, stronger SOS, better wins, etc. They were top 25 early on but really nothing impresses me on the resume this year. Not even to receive votes at this point.
Yes, I know it's a poll and there's parity. And that both teams are barely RV, but it's still a head scratcher to me :o
Yeah, they're both well out of the top 25 according to RPI. Including games through the 9th, St. Olaf is ranked 36th and Loras is ranked 72nd. Another notable omission is Drew who RV but is currently ranked 8th in RPI. I know they don't pass the eye test after some poor recent results but they still have strong numbers
Quote from: paclassic89 on October 11, 2022, 09:11:39 AM
Yeah, they're both well out of the top 25 according to RPI. Including games through the 9th, St. Olaf is ranked 36th and Loras is ranked 72nd. Another notable omission is Drew who RV but is currently ranked 8th in RPI. I know they don't pass the eye test after some poor recent results but they still have strong numbers
Yes I think Drew RV is fair given their recent conference struggles, but overall they have an impressive winning percentage but lack those signature wins. Partly because they haven't faced many challenges and the few they have they've struggled with. Manhattanville is a solid win and Kean at the time looked like a great win but they have dropped off. Newark is a decent win as well and then you have the Catholic loss and ties with Moravian and Goucher that hurt. I think they are ranked where they should be but that's just me ;D
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 09, 2022, 10:00:49 PMI wish that the NCAA would have left the OT rules alone.
This. I'm getting sick of seeing W-L-T records that look like telephone area codes. And, selfishly, it makes evaluation harder for me as a fan-poll voter.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 11, 2022, 08:40:59 AM
https://d3soccer.com/top25/men/2022/week6
As we know the USC rankings aren't always as aligned with D3Soccer or Massey, but this latest poll for D3Soccer has a few head scratchers for me...but note that for the most part I think the poll is fair and reasonable until the final few RV spots. Who cares right? But it gives us something to discuss ;D
Loras RV? A 6-5 record including a 6-0 loss to Luther last week. Who is giving Loras 3 votes???
I know this is nitty gritty stuff at the end of the poll but shocked that anybody would give them votes. There are about 30 other teams you could and should replace them with.
I agree with that. Putting Loras #23 on your ballot is nothing short of bizarre. Somebody obviously stepped out of his time machine with his filled ballot in hand after an excursion to the year 2014. ;)
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 11, 2022, 08:40:59 AM
St. Olaf is another one RV that could be questioned. 8-4 record and 2 losses to Chicago and NP which is nothing to be down about but then a loss to a decent Wartburg side and another loss that you should be down about against Carleton more recently. The only win that stands out is UW-EAU (which some are skeptical about). I don't understand how this team can RV over 20-30 other teams with less losses, similar blemishes, stronger SOS, better wins, etc. They were top 25 early on but really nothing impresses me on the resume this year. Not even to receive votes at this point.
I'm a lot more inclined to cut St. Olaf some slack. As you said, losses to Chicago and NPU shouldn't be held against the Oles, and Wartburg is 5-1-6, 1-0-3 in the ARC. And I'm not inclined to consider Carleton a major-penalty loss by the Oles, since the Carlies have a winning record and were a D3 tourney team last season, plus the fact that St. Olaf vs. Carleton is a crosstown rivalry makes me even less inclined to hold it against the Oles. But when you put them all together, it makes St. Olaf a four-loss team, and I think we're at least a week away from being able to justify the presence of a four-loss team on anybody's ballot. Maybe even
two weeks away.
However, St. Olaf is at Gustavus Adolphus on Saturday, and if the Oles knock off the Gusties (after beating St. Mary's tonight, of course) I think that you can at least consider putting a 10-4, 7-1 Oles team that sits atop the MIAC table for the bottom of your ballot. For sure, if they then beat UW-Platteville and Concordia-Moorhead the week after, they'd belong somewhere in the 20s, because those four additional wins would make them a .750 winning percentage team.
Posting here regarding a comment on another thread because it's applicable on the national level...
No OT - I love it.
I love that a good team has to prove they're good enough to score 1 lousy goal within 90 minutes.
I love that an inferior team can get a result for executing a prevent game plan to perfection.
I love that a 4-4 game ends in a draw because no one deserves to lose that game on a freak OT goal.
I love getting home 30 minutes earlier after the late night Wednesday games because I gotta get up for work really early on Thursday.
I have a bunch of stuff swirling in my head on the OT discussion.
1) It's the first year of a rule change that really does have a significant shift in coaching tactics and player mentality. If we are still seeing "area code records"* 2 and 3 years from now, I'd think that's the time to really get stuck in on the idea that there should be a reversion to OT.
2) I don't want to get too wrapped up in this, because it tends to get people really in their feelings, but... This is how the rest of the world (with VERY few exceptions) approaches the sport. You play the full 90 and the result stands. You don't grab a refreshment and say "Now, let's REALLY try to score." That sense of urgency is there or it isn't.
Draws aren't seen as a problem to solve anywhere else but in the US. A draw on the road in a hostile environment, where you come in needing points to stay alive in the league, isn't seen as a "bad" result. A gazillion scenarios where a draw is just as good as a loss for a team struggling to stay up, or looking for a Euro slot etc etc and so on.
3) Now to a somewhat counter-point: College sports in general have the relative weirdness of playing a whole bunch of games in-season that kind of don't really matter, other in a somewhat nebulous "poll watching" scenario. IOW, every other league has a "table" with standings that only pull from that particular league. So those Win-Loss-Draws are within a zero sum, someone's getting points (on not) in every fixture. Whereas, Lynchburg drawing Messiah is cool and all, but there are zero "league points" allotted.
I know this is a very obvious point, but really adds a wrinkle to issue with draws in college soccer. Reducing the ability of teams to get a W is really muddying the waters when it comes to comparisons and rankings.
But, like I said, I think it's a little early to pull any conclusions. It's very early days.
* - That's pretty funny, GS. :D
One thing I wish was more professional with D3 is information shared about injuries, suspensions, etc. It's so frustrating to not know why 5-6 key players aren't playing and why 3-4 of those who are absolutely critical to a team's hopes for making a deep run aren't playing and whether there is any expecation that they will be back soon or are now out for the season.
UW-Platteville just scored twice within a minute to go up 3-1 on Luther...around 75th min now.
Quote from: Ejay on October 11, 2022, 12:44:12 PM
Posting here regarding a comment on another thread because it's applicable on the national level...
No OT - I love it.
I love that a good team has to prove they're good enough to score 1 lousy goal within 90 minutes.
I love that an inferior team can get a result for executing a prevent game plan to perfection.
I love that a 4-4 game ends in a draw because no one deserves to lose that game on a freak OT goal.
I love getting home 30 minutes earlier after the late night Wednesday games because I gotta get up for work really early on Thursday.
Agree - get the job done.....and if you can't, and have a disproportionate number of ties at the end of the season - then your ranking should reflect it...
Also...what I think has been underemphasized in this discussion...is the physical health benefit to the athletes of not having to play those extra OT minutes. Those minutes take both a physical and a mental toll that adds up over the course of the season. These are young student athletes who are required to balance a lot in the classroom, in their social lives, and on the field.
Quote from: northman on October 13, 2022, 08:35:21 AM
Also...what I think has been underemphasized in this discussion...is the physical health benefit to the athletes of not having to play those extra OT minutes. Those minutes take both a physical and a mental toll that adds up over the course of the season. These are young student athletes who are required to balance a lot in the classroom, in their social lives, and on the field.
I posted somewhat recently stating the exact opposite. When I played 5 years ago, myself and a majority of my teammates would've much preferred games to go to overtime rather than ending tied after 90 minutes. An extra maximum of 20 minutes for maybe 5 overtime games per year (just a number that sounds reasonable year to year) is only an extra 100 minutes. Given the unlimited number of substitutions allowed, this number isn't quite that excessive and don't think it added any noticeable physical toll when I played.
What these overtime games did provide were some of my favorite memories of college soccer. I am still of the belief that a large majority of current players would prefer overtime. And isn't that what D3 sports is all about? Focusing on academics, but also competing at a high level and having a great time doing it.
Those memories are now going to shift to scoring with less than 2 minutes or under 5 minutes or in the last 30 seconds... All of which have happened in the last week. And you're still going to have epic OT games once we get into the playoffs. EPIC.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 13, 2022, 09:56:54 AM
Those memories are now going to shift to scoring with less than 2 minutes or under 5 minutes or in the last 30 seconds... All of which have happened in the last week. And you're still going to have epic OT games once we get into the playoffs. EPIC.
Exactly. I would argue that the rule change generally speaking has had the opposite effect predicted. Instead of slowing the game down and teams trying to run out the clock in many (most?) instances we've seen frenetic and dramatic finishes with teams desperate to equalize or get the GW....and the list of games where the
favored team has had to go into hyperdrive just to level in the last few minutes keeps growing and growing.
I guess I just think less ties during the regular season is better and golden goal overtimes provide the most joy as a player and now think it's a tad unfair to current players to be stripped of some of that joy. I have a younger brother currently playing, so I'm comparing my experience to his current experience.
Not to be pedantic AT ALL, OAC, as I respect your opinion, but a lot of us are comparing our playing time in D3 not having OT for every game to the current system. It's all a prism (HT to PN) or your perspective on the issue.
What I remember is when you were in the playoffs and things got to OT, it was a truly remarkable and special moment. We played Swat to an epic stalemate that eventually led to PKs. I'll NEVER forget that game.
When OT is the capper for every regular season game, it can also be seen as watering down that "special moment."
Again, I respect your position, just saying there are lots and lots of ways to look at this. No right answer, IMO.
And I remember losing in OT 4-1 and 5-1. Enough already, just score and let us go home.
Frankly, I think the no OTs is a half measure. I think if they really were interested in the health of the the athletes, they would start the season a week earlier and end a week later. As far as i am aware, getting rid of OTs has no financial impact, hence why I think its a half measure. Adding two weeks I suspect does. Definately if they are reporting to camp a week earlier ... room and board, etc.
SC.
Conn Coll quietly produced probably their best effort/showing of the season with a convincing 3-0 win over Babson. While not helpful for the NESCAC standings, this will provide what could be a key ranked win at NCAA tourney selection time. Jaran was still out. Yeonas and Djerdjaj exhibited outstanding work rates.
Amidst the flurry of draws the past two days some other big wins may have gotten a little lost in the shuffle.
On Tuesday Denison got a big road NCAC road win at Wabash, Mary Washington bested Gettysburg, ad UW-Platteville handled enigmatic Luther.
Yesterday Cortland beat New Paltz, Oneonta got by Plattsburgh, and Chapman won over reeling Redlands. Brockport's momentum got halted at least temporarily by a 1-1 draw at Geneseo.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 13, 2022, 10:41:44 AM
Frankly, I think the no OTs is a half measure. I think if they really were interested in the health of the the athletes, they would start the season a week earlier and end a week later. As far as i am aware, getting rid of OTs has no financial impact, hence why I think its a half measure. Adding two weeks I suspect does. Definately if they are reporting to camp a week earlier ... room and board, etc.
SC.
SC you are exactly right. When I coached in D3 we had to decide if we should take 2 college vans or bus. It was all about the money and savings. In fact one year we started a day late so the freshmen move in day aligned with our first day. The college students' tuition covered their meals instead of the teams $. I would love to see the seasons start earlier and go later. Better for coaches, athletes and fans just not as easy on the wallets $$$$
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 13, 2022, 10:41:44 AM
Frankly, I think the no OTs is a half measure. I think if they really were interested in the health of the the athletes, they would start the season a week earlier and end a week later. As far as i am aware, getting rid of OTs has no financial impact, hence why I think its a half measure. Adding two weeks I suspect does. Definately if they are reporting to camp a week earlier ... room and board, etc.
Some soccer players are multi sports athletes. If they play a spring sport, that is not a problem, but if they play hockey or basketball, it could be.
Just curious, are there many that play a spring sport? I guess D3 is where it's a possibility.
Quote from: maineman on October 13, 2022, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 13, 2022, 10:41:44 AM
Frankly, I think the no OTs is a half measure. I think if they really were interested in the health of the the athletes, they would start the season a week earlier and end a week later. As far as i am aware, getting rid of OTs has no financial impact, hence why I think its a half measure. Adding two weeks I suspect does. Definately if they are reporting to camp a week earlier ... room and board, etc.
Some soccer players are multi sports athletes. If they play a spring sport, that is not a problem, but if they play hockey or basketball, it could be.
I would think that if there is an overlap, it would be extended one week. And I'd be curious to know how many soccer players would have that type of conflicts.
SC.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 13, 2022, 02:46:05 PM
Just curious, are there many that play a spring sport? I guess D3 is where it's a possibility.
When I coached soccer at a D3 college, we had some that played a spring sport. I have a club player that is currently playing D3 soccer and D3 baseball. He went to the college that would allow him to play both sports at the collegiate level. He has been successful at both. I also know that my son's coach would not allow them to participate in another sport due missing off season training and or spring season. It really depends on the program and the student/athlete. I am not sure that this has anything bearing on OT v no OT in the fall seasons. If we want to show concern for our athletes then let's talk about extending the season instead of trying to finish an entire season in 3 months.
I can think of two specific instances in which a D3 soccer player doubled up in a winter team sport. Hope had a soccer/basketball student-athlete some years back named Carlson (can't remember if his first name was Cody or Chad), who, IIRC, started for the Dutch in both sports. And North Central (IL) currently has a junior named Elle Sutter who was an All-CCIW first-teamer last year in both soccer and basketball; she's among the leading scorers in the CCIW in women's soccer this year and will undoubtedly be the best player on the Cardinals' women's basketball team this year. (She's also Academic All-CCIW, by the way.) I also know that in the past both MSOE and IIT have had multiple female student-athletes double up in soccer and basketball, most likely due to the fact that as smallish STEM schools their rosters for women's sports were sometimes sparse. (I don't think that either school has had those kinds of problems for several years now, FWIW.)
It's much more common, in my experience, to see student-athletes double up in back-to-back seasons in team sports that don't include soccer. The most prominent ones, aside from the running sports and golf (which really don't count, in my estimation, because they're so individual-oriented), are:
* football in fall, men's basketball in winter
* football in fall, wrestling in winter
* women's volleyball in fall, women's basketball in winter
* men's basketball in winter, baseball in spring
* women's basketball in winter, softball in spring
Between these various combos, you will see a surprising number of D3 student-athletes negotiate a back-to-back, even in this age of specialized youth leagues and off-season skills development camps that help steer children and teens into narrowing their participation down to one sport.
Every time I've observed this happen, the rule of thumb has always been that the student-athlete finishes the first season before practicing with, and donning the uniform of, the second season. There may have been exceptions to this -- say, a terrific baseball player who came to school to play that sport doubles up in basketball because the hoops team is short of players due to injuries and needs another decent basketball player to help fill out practices and provide bench insurance, with his two coaches having a prior understanding that he'll start practicing with the baseball team in February -- but I myself haven't seen any.
Weekend Roundup Review
Friday
3:00 – Carnegie Mellon @ Chicago – (You want the truth?! You can't handle the truth! Moment of truth for the Tartans and I don't expect the truth to be kind. Maroons 3-0.)
4:00 – Vassar @ Clarkson – (Clarkson has been determined to bend but not break. Ummm, wait. They already done broke...1-2-2 in last five. Does Clarkson have one last gasp? The pressure here is now on Vassar to keep pace with SLU, but will the Brewers get caught looking ahead to facing SLU the very next day?)
6:00 – CWRU @ Wash U – (Underhyped and unappreciated these two UAA outfits are both in search of a little respect. Case would love to get a result and better yet a win to provide some cushion for their Sunday visit to Chicago. A Wash U win would put the Bears in 2nd place in the UAA and provide some momentum for a winnable match Sunday versus Carnegie Mellon. Would anyone be shocked if this one ends in a draw?)
8:00 – Millsaps @ Centre – (Centre's un-win streak is on the line as the Colonels sport an 0-10-2 record. By comparison, the Millsaps Majors are thriving...at 2-10-2). Both are 0-4 in the SAA as the battle for the cellar continues.)
8:30 – UW-Platteville @ Wartburg – (And here comes Platteville...started the season 1-2-1 with losses in first two matches versus mid-major darlings MSOE and UW-Eau Claire [I told you UWEC had another good win] but some tinkering by Coach Sam Koenig has resulted in the Pioneers rattling off 9 wins in a row, including an impressive last outing against Luther. Koenig is the youngest D3 coach in the country at age 19....just kidding, but seriously I remember watching him play in the national title game for Loras against Amherst in 2015 [which gives me an opportunity to just type the name Johnny Rummelhart who put Loras up 1-0 early]. Koenig was a two year captain and Academic AA who played a major role in three Duhawks Final 4 appearances. He's Director of Soccer at Platteville, responsible for both the men's and women's programs. For Wartburg, dial 6-1-6 KNIGHTS. Wartburg is right in the thick of a jumbled mess in the ARC and the Knights almost certainly need the AQ. Platteville has a dangerous patch here....Wartburg first and next visited by St Olaf. Wartburg gets Luther next.)
I mean, I know I'm a dinosaur, but I dabbled with baseball my freshman year. I just wasn't able to cut it to be that academically rigorous AND compete at a high level in two sports like that. Especially with baseball at the time, they were nationally ranked and did a lot of stuff in the winter. Too much of a grind. But my "sponsor" or "big brother" on the soccer team was a gifted athlete in both sports. (Hop kind of had this mentoring thing where we'd come in for pre-season and stay at upperclassmen's apartment for a full week or more before the dorm/campus really opened up. Pretty cool and the guys from my apt are still good friends. Also makes sense given the cost issues Coach Jeff was talking about.)
Ok. Mind went deep into thinking about what adding two weeks to the season, and what that would look like. Keep in mind, I really didn't think of much other than how to I could replicate a calendar but stretch it because I start a week earlier and a week later. My thoughts are not all there yet, but its a start.
New SimpleCoach Calendar (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6zlH1IV-yASx3xyaq3P_yg/community?lb=Ugkx3n8Es1vJqCW86RvTlTih1M5RoogEiyIq)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 13, 2022, 04:33:53 PM
I can think of two specific instances in which a D3 soccer player doubled up in a winter team sport. Hope had a soccer/basketball student-athlete some years back named Carlson (can't remember if his first name was Cody or Chad), who, IIRC, started for the Dutch in both sports. And North Central (IL) currently has a junior named Elle Sutter who was an All-CCIW first-teamer last year in both soccer and basketball; she's among the leading scorers in the CCIW in women's soccer this year and will undoubtedly be the best player on the Cardinals' women's basketball team this year. (She's also Academic All-CCIW, by the way.) I also know that in the past both MSOE and IIT have had multiple female student-athletes double up in soccer and basketball, most likely due to the fact that as smallish STEM schools their rosters for women's sports were sometimes sparse. (I don't think that either school has had those kinds of problems for several years now, FWIW.)
It's much more common, in my experience, to see student-athletes double up in back-to-back seasons in team sports that don't include soccer. The most prominent ones, aside from the running sports and golf (which really don't count, in my estimation, because they're so individual-oriented), are:
* football in fall, men's basketball in winter
* football in fall, wrestling in winter
* women's volleyball in fall, women's basketball in winter
* men's basketball in winter, baseball in spring
* women's basketball in winter, softball in spring
Between these various combos, you will see a surprising number of D3 student-athletes negotiate a back-to-back, even in this age of specialized youth leagues and off-season skills development camps that help steer children and teens into narrowing their participation down to one sport.
Every time I've observed this happen, the rule of thumb has always been that the student-athlete finishes the first season before practicing with, and donning the uniform of, the second season. There may have been exceptions to this -- say, a terrific baseball player who came to school to play that sport doubles up in basketball because the hoops team is short of players due to injuries and needs another decent basketball player to help fill out practices and provide bench insurance, with his two coaches having a prior understanding that he'll start practicing with the baseball team in February -- but I myself haven't seen any.
Anyone remember a couple of guys named Quinn Buckner and Dave Winfield? Winfield was actually drafted in 3 sports when he came out of Minnesota, and won conference championships in two of them. At D1 level obviously but soccer not one of them. Even before their time, some MLB pitchers played 2 or 3 sports in college, such as Yankee pitcher Steve Hamilton who got drafted by the NBA but never played there. Dave DeBusshere not only starred for the Knicks, but pitched for the White Sox. Danny Ainge. Bo Jackson. Deion Sanders. Slugger Frank Thomas played football briefly at Auburn—he went there with a football scholarship. Many more examples will occur to others.
I imagine somewhere there might be soccer players who also are kickers on football teams, but it's hard to imagine that they are really good at both, since so many scheduling conflicts would arise. Gregory skated by "individual" sports like track and XC, but that seems arbitrary to me. A few soccer players have probably run track in college, though I can't name any at the moment.
Correction: Hamilton played 2 seasons in the NBA. Indeed, he's said to be one of just two men who played in a World Series and the NBA finals. Should have known that: he was among my favorite baseball players as a boy, but to be fair his NBA career was over before basketball was on my radar. The other guy in this category, Gene Conley, is the only guy to win both of those titles. Great trivia question to file away.
Kyler Murray, Heisman trophy winner and drafted 9th overall in the MLB draft
Quote from: Falconer on October 13, 2022, 08:30:41 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 13, 2022, 04:33:53 PM
I can think of two specific instances in which a D3 soccer player doubled up in a winter team sport. Hope had a soccer/basketball student-athlete some years back named Carlson (can't remember if his first name was Cody or Chad), who, IIRC, started for the Dutch in both sports. And North Central (IL) currently has a junior named Elle Sutter who was an All-CCIW first-teamer last year in both soccer and basketball; she's among the leading scorers in the CCIW in women's soccer this year and will undoubtedly be the best player on the Cardinals' women's basketball team this year. (She's also Academic All-CCIW, by the way.) I also know that in the past both MSOE and IIT have had multiple female student-athletes double up in soccer and basketball, most likely due to the fact that as smallish STEM schools their rosters for women's sports were sometimes sparse. (I don't think that either school has had those kinds of problems for several years now, FWIW.)
It's much more common, in my experience, to see student-athletes double up in back-to-back seasons in team sports that don't include soccer. The most prominent ones, aside from the running sports and golf (which really don't count, in my estimation, because they're so individual-oriented), are:
* football in fall, men's basketball in winter
* football in fall, wrestling in winter
* women's volleyball in fall, women's basketball in winter
* men's basketball in winter, baseball in spring
* women's basketball in winter, softball in spring
Between these various combos, you will see a surprising number of D3 student-athletes negotiate a back-to-back, even in this age of specialized youth leagues and off-season skills development camps that help steer children and teens into narrowing their participation down to one sport.
Every time I've observed this happen, the rule of thumb has always been that the student-athlete finishes the first season before practicing with, and donning the uniform of, the second season. There may have been exceptions to this -- say, a terrific baseball player who came to school to play that sport doubles up in basketball because the hoops team is short of players due to injuries and needs another decent basketball player to help fill out practices and provide bench insurance, with his two coaches having a prior understanding that he'll start practicing with the baseball team in February -- but I myself haven't seen any.
Anyone remember a couple of guys named Quinn Buckner and Dave Winfield? Winfield was actually drafted in 3 sports when he came out of Minnesota, and won conference championships in two of them. At D1 level obviously but soccer not one of them. Even before their time, some MLB pitchers played 2 or 3 sports in college, such as Yankee pitcher Steve Hamilton who got drafted by the NBA but never played there. Dave DeBusshere not only starred for the Knicks, but pitched for the White Sox. Danny Ainge. Bo Jackson. Deion Sanders. Slugger Frank Thomas played football briefly at Auburn—he went there with a football scholarship. Many more examples will occur to others.
I imagine somewhere there might be soccer players who also are kickers on football teams, but it's hard to imagine that they are really good at both, since so many scheduling conflicts would arise. Gregory skated by "individual" sports like track and XC, but that seems arbitrary to me. A few soccer players have probably run track in college, though I can't name any at the moment.
Correction: Hamilton played 2 seasons in the NBA. Indeed, he's said to be one of just two men who played in a World Series and the NBA finals. Should have known that: he was among my favorite baseball players as a boy, but to be fair his NBA career was over before basketball was on my radar. The other guy in this category, Gene Conley, is the only guy to win both of those titles. Great trivia question to file away.
Charles Hedlam played soccer at Clemson and ran Track for Jamaica, a Tampa Bay kicker came to Clemson from Nigeria on a soccer scholarship.
Quote from: Falconer on October 13, 2022, 08:30:41 PM
Anyone remember a couple of guys named Quinn Buckner and Dave Winfield? Winfield was actually drafted in 3 sports when he came out of Minnesota, and won conference championships in two of them. At D1 level obviously but soccer not one of them. Even before their time, some MLB pitchers played 2 or 3 sports in college, such as Yankee pitcher Steve Hamilton who got drafted by the NBA but never played there. Dave DeBusshere not only starred for the Knicks, but pitched for the White Sox. Danny Ainge. Bo Jackson. Deion Sanders. Slugger Frank Thomas played football briefly at Auburn—he went there with a football scholarship. Many more examples will occur to others.
Jim Brown was not only an All-American running back for the Syracuse University football team, he was simultaneously an All-American lacrosse player for the Orangemen.
But, yeah, these were D1 players, and we're talking about a bygone era here. The age of the multi-sport college athlete has come and gone. What we're left with now are isolated exceptions to the rule of single-sport training and mindset.
Quote from: Falconer on October 13, 2022, 08:30:41 PMI imagine somewhere there might be soccer players who also are kickers on football teams, but it's hard to imagine that they are really good at both, since so many scheduling conflicts would arise. Gregory skated by "individual" sports like track and XC, but that seems arbitrary to me. A few soccer players have probably run track in college, though I can't name any at the moment.
I was not demeaning the running sports (or golf) in any way. I have more friends who were cross-country runners than any other sport. What I was saying is that these are sports that are much easier to train for on an individual basis than is the case for team sports. You can develop good ball skills and kicking skills on your own, but in order to be a good soccer player you need to practice and play as part of a team. And when you have to train and practice as part of
two teams in two different team sports that require completely different skill sets, that's another matter entirely.
OJ Simpson was a track star at USC,represented US, think he was part of a World record 4 by 100 team.
A question about dual (or more) D3 athletes apparently is going to lead us back to Jim Thorpe.
There have been a slew of sprinter-wide receiver guys over the years...none more notable than "Bullet" Bob Hayes. And local Massachusetts product Pat Connaughton, currently a key role player for the Milwaukee Bucks, also was a major league quality pitcher.
When I was 8 I was a member of the Dallas Cowboys fan club and had a signed 8x10 glossy of Bob Hayes (#22). I was a little too young in Spring of 1966 to be crushed by UK's historic national championship loss to Texas Western....so my first truly inconsolable fan moment that is still vivid more than 50 years later was the 1967 Ice Bowl game where Bart Starr ran behind Jerry Kramer's block to score with 13 seconds left to put Green Bay ahead of Dallas 21-17. Earlier in that game (and maybe just before Green Bay's famous final drive) I think Dan Reeves threw a halfback option pass to Hayes for a touchdown to put the Cowboys ahead. Whoever said you remember the losses more than the wins is absolutely correct.
North Park has a three-sport student-athlete at the moment, senior Esther Miller. She is currently about to transition from her fall sport, women's golf, to her winter sport, women's basketball, where she will likely be a starting forward for the second year in a row. Last year she had the eighth-highest season steals total in NPU women's basketball history. In the spring she'll be on the women's track & field team, where last year she ran the 200m and 400m and competed in the long jump, triple jump, and heptathlon. She earned All-Region honors from the U.S. Track & Field and Cross-Country Coaches Association and competed in the Drake Relays in the heptathlon. She holds a hepathlon point total that's the second-best all-time for NPU, a 400m time that's third-best ever for NPU, and a triple jump that's the third-longest in NPU women's t&f history. There's a pretty wide range of skill sets required for that particular collection of sports. Oh, and she was also named a Jack Swartz Academic All-Conference recipient by the CCIW for carrying a GPA above 3.50 as a physics major.
It's the varying skills set stuff that interests me where multi-sport athletes are concerned. If you're a soccer player, are you also playing a sport where superior hand-eye coordination is a necessity? To me, that's the logical thing to look for in terms of an expansive skills set for a multi-sport athlete who includes soccer in his or her menu.
The greatest three sport athlete I ever encountered was Curtis Pride. He is currently the head baseball coach at Gallaudet, following over a decade-long career in MLB. He went to a nearby high school and once hit a homerun over my head (I was CF) that was a classic "don't even move" it was hit so hard and far. He went on to play baseball and basketball at D1 William & Mary.
The reason I bring up on this board and in this context is the fact he was a national team pool level talent at soccer. He led Kennedy H.S. to a state title and was probably the fastest guy I've ever seen in person on a soccer field. It's actually rather maddening that when you look him up, the soccer aspect of his athletic prowess is completely forgotten/ignored.
(I was at the state championship game as a spectator and the goal he scored was Maradona'esque cheeky. He was on a slight breakaway and the ball bounced up on him, he subtlety used his hand to tamp the ball back down (in full stride, and so the ref couldn't quite see it) before slotting it past the keeper. Not many ppl actually even realized what he'd done... You had to really be paying attention.)
Oh, and if it wasn't clear (as it probably shouldn't be assumed) by his Gallaudet affiliation, Curtis was deaf.
I remember Curtis Pride. Just looked him up on baseball-reference.com ... boy, for a journeyman corner outfielder who bounced around from team to team and never became an everyday player, he sure managed to hang around in the Show for an awfully long time, far longer than is typical for a player who fits his profile. I respect that.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 14, 2022, 01:41:01 PM
I remember Curtis Pride. Just looked him up on baseball-reference.com ... boy, for a journeyman corner outfielder who bounced around from team to team and never became an everyday player, he sure managed to hang around in the Show for an awfully long time, far longer than is typical for a player who fits his profile. I respect that.
Here's a cool article on his soccer prowess: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/06/curtis-pride-the-deaf-usa-soccer-prodigy-who-turned-to-pro-baseball
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 14, 2022, 02:01:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 14, 2022, 01:41:01 PM
I remember Curtis Pride. Just looked him up on baseball-reference.com ... boy, for a journeyman corner outfielder who bounced around from team to team and never became an everyday player, he sure managed to hang around in the Show for an awfully long time, far longer than is typical for a player who fits his profile. I respect that.
Here's a cool article on his soccer prowess: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/06/curtis-pride-the-deaf-usa-soccer-prodigy-who-turned-to-pro-baseball
Wow! Thanks for sharing. Great read.
Saturday
12:00 – Hamilton @ Bowdoin – (The pollsters apparently didn't notice that the Continentals had back to back draws at home to NESCAC bottom dwellers Bates and Colby, even if the latter are the best 9th and 10th place teams in NESCAC history. Bowdoin is perhaps the most difficult NESCAC to try and slot into a predicted NESCAC table year-to-year. I don't have a good feel for the Polar Bears either, but they've got to be good...draws with Midd and Amherst and a win over Conn Coll. Hamilton does have some serious talent but they're young. I think Bowdoin finds a way here. The challenges continue for both as Bowdoin closes with Colby, Wesleyan, and @Tufts, while Hamilton has @Williams, Amherst, and @ Oneonta St.)
1:00 – Brockport @ New Paltz St – (Brockport just suffered their first blemish – a draw with Geneseo – in the rough and tumble SUNYAC. We'll probably let that slide IF the Golden Eagles can beat New Paltz, but if they lose Brockport might have trouble stopping the bleeding as Cortland looms. Meanwhile, this is also a big one for the Hawks who have surprised only to disappoint, but they're still very much in the mix for a top 4 SUNYAC finish.)
2:00 – Vassar @ SLU – (Advantage to SLU here. After a five hour drive to Potsdam and a spirited battle with Clarkson the Brewers have to deal with the Saints at 2:00 the very next day. That's a brutal bus ride home if you come home with 0 points and I assume they'd be pretty happy with 4 points or at worst 3. I was surprised to see one of the SLU faithful praise the Vassar pitch as I thought Sandy Mac was the best field in the LL and in the convo nationally. Excitement can barely be contained in Canton as Saints fans wonder if there is a chance for a special season. Saints fans dream big which also means they can fall hard. They are critical but always hopeful. A win against Vassar would give SLU a little turbocharge as they get closer to post-season play.)
2:00 – Conn Coll @ Colby – (Has Conn Coll finally righted the ship? The win over Babson was impressive. That said, even a very good team sailing straight can have a difficult time in Waterville. Who would have thought the Camels would be fighting to steer clear of Bates and Colby for the 8th spot in NESCAC? Colby deserves better than their current tied for 9th status and in almost any other conference the Mules might be on the doorstep of a NCAA bid. With a win Colby can take a one point lead over Conn although Conn has an extra game in hand. Nevertheless, a loss here or maybe even a draw could put Conn in harm's way as they next go on the road to Amherst before closing with Bates and Wesleyan. Colby closes at Bowdoin and home vs Bates.)
2:30 – Tufts @ Bates – (I expect the Jumbos to take a very professional approach for this trip to Lewiston. Get a straightforward 2-0 or 3-1 victory and then feast on some Maine-Farmington on Sunday before prepping for the massive season-ending two match homestand against Middlebury and Bowdoin. The Bobcats should have some juice coming off the dramatic 4-4 tie with Wesleyan, but I just don't see Bates knocking off Tufts at this stage of the campaign.)
3:00 – Williams @ Wesleyan – (No breaking news here, but Wesleyan is in trouble. After being the most highly rated NESCAC just a couple of weeks ago the Cardinals are in potential danger of dropping out of the NESCAC playoff picture entirely on heels of an 0-3-2 stretch. After Williams, Wesleyan has a not-so-important tilt at home with Springfield but then goes on the road for Bowdoin and Conn Coll. Williams at 4-1-6 isn't much better off as the Ephs end at home vs Hamilton and away for Trinity and Middlebury. Sounds redundant and almost boring at this point, but obviously a massive game for both teams.)
4:30 – St Olaf @ GAC – (Don't look now but St Olaf is in 1st place in the MIAC. No doubt the Oles would like the Carleton match back, but their overall trend-line seems positive. And it's possible that the Gusties are trending down following two draws (the last one barely) in their last three fixtures. St Olaf's hopes for a Pool C may hinge on this result and the next one against UW-Platteville. The same might be said for GAC who gets Luther on Sunday. The Oles and Gusties will be favored to meet again in the MIAC tourney final.)
5:00 – Ohio Northern @ John Carroll – (Battle for the top spot in the OAC as these old rivals face off at Don Shula Stadium. Beyond the OAC, both hope to remain viable if a Pool C bid is needed. These are good teams, but imo the Blue Streaks are one of the best unranked teams in the country and probably are the second best (or even first) in Region VII. John Carroll does not want a slump at this juncture and with @Otterbein on tap the Blue Streaks must stay sharp. Same goes for the Polar Bears who could play themselves out of Pool C contention with a couple of late season losses and/or an early exit in the OAC tourney.)
5:30 – Whitman @ Willamette – (Willamette gets the two Whits – Whitman and Whitworth –back-to-back. I thought the Bearcats at 7-0-0 in the NWC were closing in on the title and an AQ but they've only completed the first round of the round-robin and now have to play all seven teams again. Whitman has been consistently inconsistent but the men from Walla Walla did get an away win at 2nd place Pac Lutheran.)
6:00 – Christopher Newport @ St Mary's – (I'm forever confusing St Mary's (MD) with Mary Washington and Wash Coll. The Seahawks have a shot at their best record in Coach Alun Oliver's 12 year tenure. Oliver hails from Ponty-Pool, Wales and also is a 2004 graduate of St Mary's where he excelled as a player earning two All-Region selections and continues to hold the program record for assists in a career. St Mary's to their credit is stepping outside the conference to entertain CNU followed by a road game at Mary Washington. A split would likely suit the Seahawks just fine. CNU should be wary. After an emotional trio of games against Messiah, Virginia coast rival VWU, and W&L, the Captains are vulnerable to a letdown. Let's place an UPSET ALERT on this one.)
7:00 – Gettysburg @ Wash Coll – (Washington College is 3-4-5 and can you believe they are tied with Gettysburg at 2-1-2 in the Centennial? Gettysburg needs a win in the worst way. Seems like just yesterday that the Bullets were keeping pace with Hopkins and F&M but after going 1-2-1 in their last four they are now solidly in the middle of the pack. No shame losing to Hopkins and Mary Washington and earning a draw with F&M, but at some point if you're a contender and not a pretender you've got to be on the winning side of some of these tougher games. I'm not quite ready to put Gettysburg in Wesleyan territory (comparatively) but a loss here and the Bullets are officially in deep trouble.)
Great call on the CNU-St.M's game... those C2C teams are always slipping through the Mid-Atlantic cracks when I do a regional scan... That's a good match-up and travelling to St. Mary's is a bit of trek. It's Senior Day and if the weather is nice, they can pull a decent crowd...
BTW, Simple Coach, my BIL went there... It's a beautiful campus and definitely worthy of a Field of Dreams segment, if no other reason than stopping by (relatively) nearby Solomons Island and a trip to the Tiki Bar.
FYI the game time for the ONU-JCU game has been changed to 7 in the last couple days.
Quote from: oacalum on October 14, 2022, 05:22:38 PM
FYI the game time for the ONU-JCU game has been changed to 7 in the last couple days.
Thanks for the information
Just a brutal loss for Emory...2-2...get red card late which I couldn't tell if that was deserved or not...just under a minute Emory defender drags down a NYU player just outside box...Emory keeper makes fantastic save but ball parried out about 18 yards to his right and NYU danger man one times a perfect strike that keeper had no chance on. NYU 3, Emory 2.
Will be interesting to see if SC and Hopkins think he should have caught the free kick that was headed bottom left corner and very well struck.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 14, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
Just a brutal loss for Emory...2-2...get red card late which I couldn't tell if that was deserved or not...just under a minute Emory defender drags down a NYU player just outside box...Emory keeper makes fantastic save but ball parried out about 18 yards to his right and NYU danger man one times a perfect strike that keeper had no chance on. NYU 3, Emory 2.
Will be interesting to see if SC and Hopkins think he should have caught the free kick that was headed bottom left corner and very well struck.
Just commented on NYU's season and how they seem not to be playing up to this years expectation and then they pull it out on a great rebound goal with 55 seconds to go. The direct kick was hit perfectly as well. I am not sure the keeper could have held it.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 14, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
Just a brutal loss for Emory...2-2...get red card late which I couldn't tell if that was deserved or not...just under a minute Emory defender drags down a NYU player just outside box...Emory keeper makes fantastic save but ball parried out about 18 yards to his right and NYU danger man one times a perfect strike that keeper had no chance on. NYU 3, Emory 2.
Will be interesting to see if SC and Hopkins think he should have caught the free kick that was headed bottom left corner and very well struck.
I'm not SC or Hopkins, but I sometimes caucus with them on GK issues and I think this was a ball that could have been caught. It's sometimes hard to tell the ball's pace from a video and the rebound does go pretty far, which is sometimes an indication of pace, but the NYU player had to put some bend on it, which often slows things down a bit, and it looked like it floated over and was exactly the height you would want a ball if you were trying to catch it in the air. Plus, the GK was set exactly where he needed to be and didn't even have to move a foot to get there. My sense was that the GK was going for the block from the outset as if it was a PK shootout where rebounds don't matter and never intended to catch it, which is probably his biggest mistake if you could call it a mistake. I get why he didn't think catch, because he surely doesn't want to get it wrong and fumble it into the goal at the last second, but if you don't train over and over to go for the catch instinctively, you end up giving up a lot of rebounds on balls you could have caught in retrospect. There is a way that he could have parried the ball more safely that involves stopping it with his right arm and pushing it down the end line with his left where it was out of trouble, but that's actually technically more difficult than just trying to catch the ball.
I should add that "should have been caught" is a closer question than "could have" only because if he knows his hands aren't the best or that he has never really trained in a way that focuses on catching everything, then the parry may have been the safer play for him, even though it was ultimately not safe.
Quote from: Kuiper on October 14, 2022, 07:47:41 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 14, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
Just a brutal loss for Emory...2-2...get red card late which I couldn't tell if that was deserved or not...just under a minute Emory defender drags down a NYU player just outside box...Emory keeper makes fantastic save but ball parried out about 18 yards to his right and NYU danger man one times a perfect strike that keeper had no chance on. NYU 3, Emory 2.
Will be interesting to see if SC and Hopkins think he should have caught the free kick that was headed bottom left corner and very well struck.
I'm not SC or Hopkins, but I sometimes caucus with them on GK issues and I think this was a ball that could have been caught. It's sometimes hard to tell the ball's pace from a video and the rebound does go pretty far, which is sometimes an indication of pace, but the NYU player had to put some bend on it, which often slows things down a bit, and it looked like it floated over and was exactly the height you would want a ball if you were trying to catch it in the air. Plus, the GK was set exactly where he needed to be and didn't even have to move a foot to get there. My sense was that the GK was going for the block from the outset as if it was a PK shootout where rebounds don't matter and never intended to catch it, which is probably his biggest mistake if you could call it a mistake. I get why he didn't think catch, because he surely doesn't want to get it wrong and fumble it into the goal at the last second, but if you don't train over and over to go for the catch instinctively, you end up giving up a lot of rebounds on balls you could have caught in retrospect. There is a way that he could have parried the ball more safely that involves stopping it with his right arm and pushing it down the end line with his left where it was out of trouble, but that's actually technically more difficult than just trying to catch the ball.
Ok. I watched the free kick.... so my observations. He is like 6 foot ginormous so a ball at mid height to the side is totally saveable. Second, he wasn't fooled on the shot. He wasn't caught going to dark side behind the wall. His feet were set and to me, he had eyes on the ball. The. Whole. Way. It wasn't even that great of a strike.... unless keeping it on frame is a great strike these days. Third, I thought he only got one hand on it, but no, he had both hands on the ball. And it looks like he was collapsing toward the ball, not really going into an extension for the ball.... he is like 6 foot ginormous... Fourth, that wasn't a parry, that was just him blocking the shot.... hence the angle of the rebound he gave up. Fifth, and the crux of the issue, if he went back to his bench and didn't get an earful for not catching the damn rock, then seriously, you get the keeper you deserve. This is the perfect example of what I mean about kids being taught to block/parry/punch balls away instead of practice day in and day out, the art of catching ... and it is an art since not a lot of keepers do it much anymore ... and when they are tired of practicing catching, put them under pressure to catch the ball. And if they drop the ball, bury it past them. And then tell them if they caught the ball, you wouldn't have tried to take his head off with a shot.
Instead he blocks, and you even heard the announcer say something to the effect that it was a great save/or block on the shot. My jaw dropped and actually my reaction was the goalkeeper caused the entire play to develop when if he would have stopped and either caught it or actually parry it away, Emory would have walked away with a 2-2 draw.
I am sweating from watching that play and typing this. I am proud that I didn't drop any F bombs as I would have had he been one of my Keepers.....
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 14, 2022, 08:07:03 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 14, 2022, 07:47:41 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 14, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
Just a brutal loss for Emory...2-2...get red card late which I couldn't tell if that was deserved or not...just under a minute Emory defender drags down a NYU player just outside box...Emory keeper makes fantastic save but ball parried out about 18 yards to his right and NYU danger man one times a perfect strike that keeper had no chance on. NYU 3, Emory 2.
Will be interesting to see if SC and Hopkins think he should have caught the free kick that was headed bottom left corner and very well struck.
I'm not SC or Hopkins, but I sometimes caucus with them on GK issues and I think this was a ball that could have been caught. It's sometimes hard to tell the ball's pace from a video and the rebound does go pretty far, which is sometimes an indication of pace, but the NYU player had to put some bend on it, which often slows things down a bit, and it looked like it floated over and was exactly the height you would want a ball if you were trying to catch it in the air. Plus, the GK was set exactly where he needed to be and didn't even have to move a foot to get there. My sense was that the GK was going for the block from the outset as if it was a PK shootout where rebounds don't matter and never intended to catch it, which is probably his biggest mistake if you could call it a mistake. I get why he didn't think catch, because he surely doesn't want to get it wrong and fumble it into the goal at the last second, but if you don't train over and over to go for the catch instinctively, you end up giving up a lot of rebounds on balls you could have caught in retrospect. There is a way that he could have parried the ball more safely that involves stopping it with his right arm and pushing it down the end line with his left where it was out of trouble, but that's actually technically more difficult than just trying to catch the ball.
Ok. I watched the free kick.... so my observations. He is like 6 foot ginormous so a ball at mid height to the side is totally saveable. Second, he wasn't fooled on the shot. He wasn't caught going to dark side behind the wall. His feet were set and to me, he had eyes on the ball. The. Whole. Way. It wasn't even that great of a strike.... unless keeping it on frame is a great strike these days. Third, I thought he only got one hand on it, but no, he had both hands on the ball. And it looks like he was collapsing toward the ball, not really going into an extension for the ball.... he is like 6 foot ginormous... Fourth, that wasn't a parry, that was just him blocking the shot.... hence the angle of the rebound he gave up. Fifth, and the crux of the issue, if he went back to his bench and didn't get an earful for not catching the damn rock, then seriously, you get the keeper you deserve. This is the perfect example of what I mean about kids being taught to block/parry/punch balls away instead of practice day in and day out, the art of catching ... and it is an art since not a lot of keepers do it much anymore ... and when they are tired of practicing catching, put them under pressure to catch the ball. And if they drop the ball, bury it past them. And then tell them if they caught the ball, you wouldn't have tried to take his head off with a shot.
Instead he blocks, and you even heard the announcer say something to the effect that it was a great save/or block on the shot. My jaw dropped and actually my reaction was the goalkeeper caused the entire play to develop when if he would have stopped and either caught it or actually parry it away, Emory would have walked away with a 2-2 draw.
I am sweating from watching that play and typing this. I am proud that I didn't drop any F bombs as I would have had he been one of my Keepers.....
SC.
SC i do agree that a lot of keepers are now being taught to knock the ball down. I always looked for that when I was watching game tapes on teams when scouting or recruits videos (VHS) LOL. We would definitely increase our offensive present in the the box for those teams. But SC I think the issue is far before the actual direct kick Emory's defender got beat by a mediocre 1 v 1 move because he was in a terrible position. He looked tired and if so the coach could have replaced him with fresher legs. To make matters worst he dives into what he thought was going to be a great defensive move and instead gave NYU a direct kick just outside the box.
Yes I agree he should have not given up the rebound but let's face it he shouldn't have been asked to do it.
The stealth UAA game -- CWRU @ Wash U -- ended....yep...1-1. CWRU pushed to score for a least the last 20 minutes and and Wash U cooperated with CWRU dominating possession, and CWRU finally knocked the door down with 50 secs left.
And of course UR scores late to squeak out a must win over Brandeis at Fauver Stadium.
Barring an epic collapse the streak will end tonight. Centre up 5-0 on Millsaps still in 1st half.
RE: The Emory GK free kick analysis
It turns out that SC did indeed have an opinion, lol.
I thought the free kick was going in but now I can see what SC is saying. Also give a bit of credit to the NYU player. A lot of kids would have sailed that way over the bar from that distance and he absolutely (clinically) buried it.
The play was obviously huge for both teams but for NYU may have kept their season alive. Makes the game with UR Sunday a little more interesting.
Centre is ticked off....6-0, still 1st half.
Ummm....7.
Welp...now Wartburg actually is my zip code...6-1-7
I mean area code lol.
Here's my one question on the Chicago vs Messiah debate (and yes, it's very possible we won't get this matchup for real similar to how some of us have waited several years for Tufts and Messiah to lock horns again and it hasn't materialized).
Are Chicago's outside backs and wingers fast enough to stay with Messiah's danger men? Someone like bluejay I'm sure knows the answer. Otherwise I think Chicago can easily match Messiah man for man. They have two 1st team AA CBs with great size, instincts, and also some offensive punch, and I assume both could be legit D1 CBs. Gillespie and Wada provide a tremendous safety net. The Maroons also have plenty of skill and speed in the midfield and up top.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 14, 2022, 08:07:03 PM
I am sweating from watching that play and typing this. I am proud that I didn't drop any F bombs as I would have had he been one of my Keepers.....
SC.
Cracking me up over here. (I didn't get to the video last night, but as per usual, trust you and kuiper on this front.
I'm wondering if enough coaches over time seeing flappy parries turn into dangerous chances and/or goals will swing the pendulum the other way.
Prolly not, but it's not like there aren't a bunch of GK trainers/coaches on professional and D1 staff. I know in D3 it's usually more spotty, with part timers filling that role in a lot of places. Have things really gone so far that even GK trainers are preaching the gospel of the punch/parry first, catch second mentality?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 15, 2022, 10:46:49 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 14, 2022, 08:07:03 PM
I am sweating from watching that play and typing this. I am proud that I didn't drop any F bombs as I would have had he been one of my Keepers.....
SC.
Cracking me up over here. (I didn't get to the video last night, but as per usual, trust you and kuiper on this front.
I'm wondering if enough coaches over time seeing flappy parries turn into dangerous chances and/or goals will swing the pendulum the other way.
Prolly not, but it's not like there aren't a bunch of GK trainers/coaches on professional and D1 staff. I know in D3 it's usually more spotty, with part timers filling that role in a lot of places. Have things really gone so far that even GK trainers are preaching the gospel of the punch/parry first, catch second mentality?
I tend to think most GK coaches would be happy to have a GK catch the ball instinctively and only block, punch, or parry when necessary, but they've gotten so used to seeing GKs who don't have the best hands in those situations, that at the first sign of a fumble they advise the GK to get it out of trouble. It's sort of like telling the defender to boot it long or out. Coaches don't adopt that philosophy because it's ideal, but because they know their player isn't good enough to hold onto the ball and the risks outweigh the chance they will in any particular instance. To do better, coaches need to recruit better and with GKs, it's hard to find youth GKs who have great hands AND fit the coach's demands for height, athleticism, leadership, foot skills, distribution, decision-making etc.
Sunday
11:00 – NYU @ Rochester – (Rochester scored late [83rd minute] to nip Brandeis at home and NYU scored very, very late [with 50 secs left] to crush Emory. In my experience, UAA teams need to get to 3 wins and maybe a draw for strong Pool C consideration. Everyone should just expect that Rochester will go on a little run here, as the Yellowjackets, albeit on the road after Sunday for all, close with CWRU, CMU, and Emory. Not cupcakes by any means but winning two out of the last three seems very doable. With a win over NYU and a couple more wins I'm pretty sure you'll see Rochester in the bracket. NYU closes with Chicago and Wash U at home before traveling to Waltham to take on Brandeis. I favor Rochester here just a touch, but I also could see them losing to NYU and then running the table. NYU may need to win two out of the last three, especially if the Violets lose or draw at Rochester.)
12:00 – Carnegie Mellon @ Wash U – (In some ways, CMU's blowout loss may be easier to digest and move on from than Wash U conceding to a draw with CWRU with less than a minute left. CMU needs at least a draw here and still might need to run the table against Emory, Rochester, and @CWRU. A win Sunday and CMU might only need two of three or a win and a couple of draws. CMU is likely to have the lowest SoS of all UAA teams but they will probably benefit from being in arguably the weakest region compared to the other UAAs. As for Wash U, let's say they beat CMU. The finish with three road games at Brandeis, NYU, and Chicago. If the Bears win two out of those three they'd close around 8-4-2 [4-1-2 conference]. I'd say that record would get the Bears a bid, so can they really win three out of the last four starting tomorrow, or at least go 2-1-1 which would put them at 7-4-3 and 3-1-3. Wash U also will be pulling for North Park and Calvin to win their AQs.)
12:00 – CWRU @ Chicago – (CWRU will need a really off day by Chicago and I just don't see that happening. We're getting to a point where the Maroons could realistically start shooting for an undefeated season. Let's go way out on a limb and give CWRU a loss here. Their final four games are at home...Asbury, and then Rochester, Emory, and CMU. Let's presume a win over Asbury and guess that the Spartans go 1-1-1 in the last three. That would put them at 8-4-4 and 3-2-2, yielding another bubble watch situation for sure. It's very possible CMU and CWRU could both get bids depending on how the NCAC and OAC shake out, but it's also possible their last game against each other could be determinative.)
2:30 – Rhodes @ Oglethorpe – (Rhodes is the new Sewanee before Sewanee really got to be the new anything. Pollsters can't get their erasers out fast enough when a team they've just started to notice drops two in a row as Sewanee did. Now it's Rhodes' turn and the Lynx didn't help themselves last night slumping to a draw at Berry. Oglethorpe is having a very mediocre season by their standards but the awesome weight of history says Rhodes may have trouble leaving Atlanta with a win. Rhodes has not been to the NCAA tournament since 1998. The SAA regular season race could come down to the finale between current leaders at 4-0-1, Rhodes and Hendrix. There it is...the first and likely last Hendrix mention. The Warriors have never been to the NCAA tournament and the 10/22 match in Conway might be the biggest event in Hendrix men's soccer history.)
I call bullcrap there is no meaningful amount of goalie coaches teaching their players to parry/box instead of catch... it's just not a thing. Every coach wants their keeper to catch.
What's probably actually happening is that lots of D3 goalies just aren't very good and are liable to give up bad rebounds because they don't have the technique and training to hold the ball, so they try to parry instead and probably get some pressure from head coaches to do that if they have given up bad rebounds trying to catch before.
Goalie is a bit unique in that being good at it requires a large number of hours of specialized training and most kids don't get that, even many one's that are solid high school and club players.
It was a question, not a statement of fact, no reason to call bullcrap on anything. You and Kuiper are saying, essentially, the same thing... The keepers in D3 range in talent and technical ability, so the coaches feel like it's "safer" to smack the ball clear of danger. Doesn't always work out that way... Totally makes sense.
Yeah sorry Hopkins I was not responding to you specifically. I've seen a hit of chatter about the whole parrying thing across the board in general and wanted to push back on it. Hope no hard feelings ;D
All good! Nice to see you getting stuck in...
Willamette, the last undefeated team out West, loses at home to Whitman today 3-1. That won't affect Willamette's standing in the Northwest Conference, where they still lead Pacific Lutheran by a game, but it shoulld knock Willamette out of the top 10 of the rankings and it gives Pacific Lutheran (which beat Pacific 5-1 today) a chance to catch Willamette when they next play on 10/29.
The lights went out in Cleveland...literally...ONU 2, JCU 1 12 min left
Lights came back on....and ONU held on with JCU putting on tons of pressure the last 5 minutes. The JCU announcer is great...on like the 3rd corner in a row and after point blank chances over the crossbar there were 20 secs left and guy exclaims "THIS is the line in the sand!" Great game. Huge win for ONU...first win there in 7 years.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2022, 10:22:37 AM
Here's my one question on the Chicago vs Messiah debate (and yes, it's very possible we won't get this matchup for real similar to how some of us have waited several years for Tufts and Messiah to lock horns again and it hasn't materialized).
Are Chicago's outside backs and wingers fast enough to stay with Messiah's danger men? Someone like bluejay I'm sure knows the answer. Otherwise I think Chicago can easily match Messiah man for man. They have two 1st team AA CBs with great size, instincts, and also some offensive punch, and I assume both could be legit D1 CBs. Gillespie and Wada provide a tremendous safety net. The Maroons also have plenty of skill and speed in the midfield and up top.
Hard to say in terms of keeping up, but the UChicago outside backs are not what I'd call speedsters. They rely on their size, confidence and technical skill. Thing is, even if they do get burned (which I've seen before), the center backs shutdown any further damage. Gillespie runs like a gazelle, especially for a guy whose 6-foot-3, which is why he's frequently involved in the attack. North Park tried playing long balls down the left flank constantly in their matchup and they definitely had the quickness advantage. However, UChicago just stayed so organized, it didn't get exploited for real chances. Leuker is known to gamble a fair amount at left back, which has bit him before. Moonesinghe has leveled up this year after a shaky showing last year and is displaying the talent and poise the Maroons expected when he first arrived on campus. Baldwin is good at tracking people down. Kabbani might be the best passer on the team and plays a hybrid role that makes him as super valuable wherever he plays in midfield or defense.
Quote from: hiyasoccer on October 15, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
I call bullcrap there is no meaningful amount of goalie coaches teaching their players to parry/box instead of catch... it's just not a thing. Every coach wants their keeper to catch.
What's probably actually happening is that lots of D3 goalies just aren't very good and are liable to give up bad rebounds because they don't have the technique and training to hold the ball, so they try to parry instead and probably get some pressure from head coaches to do that if they have given up bad rebounds trying to catch before.
Goalie is a bit unique in that being good at it requires a large number of hours of specialized training and most kids don't get that, even many one's that are solid high school and club players.
Agree. GK Play is the difference maker as we get to tournament play. No legitimate GK coach at a higher level is spending extra time on punches or parry - as the focus should be holds. The teams that can recruit a GK that meets the eye test and has good hands a feet will have a distinct advantage in one and done postseason play. GK play does not dazzle in many d3 games - but gets the job done. Most fans have little exposure to what good vs great GK play or training is - and won't realize what they dont have - or what could have been if they had a GK with better training and pedigree.....
And don't get me started on all the punts and long goal kicks we see in D3 play......play it short - leverage possession with a GK that can not only stop balls, but use his feet and head to build from the back. Lots of rec league punters out there. I can almost hear their moms yelling "great kick" as the orange slices are prepared for the post game snack.
About the only criticism of Chicago I can muster is the asst coach pacing up and down the sidelines the entire game acting like he's the HC.
CWRU playing about as well as they can play and there's no sense that the Spartans can win this game. I noticed this in the Calvin game but Chicago, maybe to a fault, does not look under pressure even when they are under pressure. They are comfortable allowing the opponent to have some possession. They always seem in control and patient waiting for chances to turn on the after-burners.
What a weekend for NYU #9 Arkan Tahsildaroglu.....smashes the winner off the much-discussed Emory GK block of a free kick with less than a minute left. Today, around 83rd minute, about two minutes after Rochester went ahead 1-0, he scored directly off a corner.
Chicago gets 6 points.
Wash U quietly picks up 4 points.
NYU picks up 4 points.
Rochester gets 4 points.
CWRU was valiant and probably gave Chicago as good a game as any UAA will (and still the 2-0 scoreline was not that close even though CWRU pulled one back with 34 secs left), but ends the weekend with just 1 point.
Carnegie Mellon heads back home with 0 points.
Emory finally gets a win over Brandeis.
Chicago clearly has the AQ. Wash U, UR, NYU, CWRU, and CMU all still viable for Pool C but have work to do. I'm guessing three will get Pool Cs. CMU plays at CWRU in the last game for each and wouldn't be surprised if that game determines which one gets a bid. CMU still very fortunate they have what will be a ranked win over JCU in their pocket but imo they need another ranked win against one of the UAAs who will end up regionally ranked.
If anyone can figure out how to get video of the NYU equalizer today out of the UR film room please post.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 16, 2022, 06:03:28 PM
If anyone can figure out how to get video of the NYU equalizer today out of the UR film room please post.
@PaulNewman.... the amount of responses I came up with for your simple request ... I'll start with .... It'll cost you.
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 16, 2022, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 16, 2022, 06:03:28 PM
If anyone can figure out how to get video of the NYU equalizer today out of the UR film room please post.
@PaulNewman.... the amount of responses I came up with for your simple request ... I'll start with .... It'll cost you.
SC.
I'm open....but I'm NOT posting bail.
Your best bet is to hope NYU uploads the highlights to their Hudl page in the coming days.
I think Rochester might have it available :)
Quote from: northman on October 13, 2022, 08:35:21 AM
Also...what I think has been underemphasized in this discussion...is the physical health benefit to the athletes of not having to play those extra OT minutes. Those minutes take both a physical and a mental toll that adds up over the course of the season. These are young student athletes who are required to balance a lot in the classroom, in their social lives, and on the field.
The Soccer Rules Committee compiled and circulated 10 years of data that showed pretty definitively that playing OT periods did not increase player injuries in the OT game or in the thee games played by the same team thereafter.
As Mark Twain once quoted..."there are lies, damned lies, and statistics..." I'm not sure what the scheduling looks like in other conferences, but in the NESCAC there are at least two weekends of back-to-back games...within a shorter regular season than that of other conferences. Too many OTs (and my son experienced his share back in the day) simply does take a toll...whatever the more generalized statistics might say.
I'll tell you who loves the no OT rule - the officials. One told me it's made things so much easier in terms of reffing back to back games, which a lot of them do. College game at 4, hs game at 6 is now totally doable.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 16, 2022, 01:34:33 PM
About the only criticism of Chicago I can muster is the asst coach pacing up and down the sidelines the entire game acting like he's the HC.
CWRU playing about as well as they can play and there's no sense that the Spartans can win this game. I noticed this in the Calvin game but Chicago, maybe to a fault, does not look under pressure even when they are under pressure. They are comfortable allowing the opponent to have some possession. They always seem in control and patient waiting for chances to turn on the after-burners.
It speaks to UChicago's quality that today's win felt like perhaps the most unimpressive game the Maroons have played all year. Case did exactly what they needed to: go straight at UChicago all over the field with no fear. Their pace, high press, and aggressiveness put UChicago on their back foot for basically the entire first half, and the home team couldn't find consistent possession past midfield. Case's slide tackles were impeccable throughout. While the Maroons scored early off a good play, they literally seemed to rest on their laurels for the rest of the half and played way too passively. Not sure why UChicago looked so disengaged: casual was the word that kept popping into my head all game.
It was clear that the Maroon coaching staff wasn't happy with the first half effort either: they left the first half subs in at the start of the second half.
The not looking under pressure when they are under pressure observation is spot on. The defense refuses to overreact or be hurried when they're building possession from the back. They have supreme confidence in their ball movement. Case employed a smart game plan, executed it very well, put real pressure on the Maroons... and still came up with only 1 good look all game until the final 30 seconds. That's just what the UChicago defense does to you.
Case impressed me very much with their effort. CMU looked fraudulent. I guarantee the Spartans beat the Tartans in the season finale.
Rare for a Monday but there is a nice North region "doubleheader" with arguably the top four teams in the North.
4:00 -- Luther @ GAC (Luther to put it kindly has been enigmatic, but with the possible exception of Calvin gave Chicago their biggest scare thus far. GAC showed vulnerability last week by having to score at the death against Augsburg just to draw but rebounded with a big win over St Olaf.)
6:00 -- St Olaf @ UW-Platteville (Big game for regional rankings determinations down the road.)
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 16, 2022, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: hiyasoccer on October 15, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
I call bullcrap there is no meaningful amount of goalie coaches teaching their players to parry/box instead of catch... it's just not a thing. Every coach wants their keeper to catch.
What's probably actually happening is that lots of D3 goalies just aren't very good and are liable to give up bad rebounds because they don't have the technique and training to hold the ball, so they try to parry instead and probably get some pressure from head coaches to do that if they have given up bad rebounds trying to catch before.
Goalie is a bit unique in that being good at it requires a large number of hours of specialized training and most kids don't get that, even many one's that are solid high school and club players.
Agree. GK Play is the difference maker as we get to tournament play. No legitimate GK coach at a higher level is spending extra time on punches or parry - as the focus should be holds. The teams that can recruit a GK that meets the eye test and has good hands a feet will have a distinct advantage in one and done postseason play. GK play does not dazzle in many d3 games - but gets the job done. Most fans have little exposure to what good vs great GK play or training is - and won't realize what they dont have - or what could have been if they had a GK with better training and pedigree.....
And don't get me started on all the punts and long goal kicks we see in D3 play......play it short - leverage possession with a GK that can not only stop balls, but use his feet and head to build from the back. Lots of rec league punters out there. I can almost hear their moms yelling "great kick" as the orange slices are prepared for the post game snack.
As a parent of current starting D3 keeper, I've held back from this conversation re: punch v. catch. You all know that it is key (if not most important position) on the field. Mistakes are made and sometimes keepers lose games, but you have to look at the entire team before you blame a keeper for not catching and instead punching. Keepers get to make mistakes (soft goals) and they do at every level.
I've always said to my son so he can function is that you get to make at least one mistake a game. If he does make the mistake, his team still should win. If he makes a second then it should be a tie. If your team is good, they should be able to score at least 2 goals. If the team can't do that then maybe it is a team issue and not a keepers who makes a mistake(s) a game. Don't see many if any posts on lack of finishing/putting balls on frame in D3. In fact, I often think (to include my son's team) that teams make keepers look really good with the incredibly weak shots I have seen at the D3 level. Son also started at the D1 level so I can comment on that. If it gets to the keeper, it had to go through 10 other players before he even gets a chance to make a mistake.
As to playing out of the back, I agree. My son has become good field player and cuts off many opportunities with his feet/head before it even gets to the 18. Concerning distribution, he rarely if ever punts/long goal kicks in his club and college career. He can punt/long goal kicks really well, but only does this rarely and wholly depends on whether his back are up to the pressure. He also has worked hard on hitting his midfield on his side of the field in the air to break presses. FYI, coaches do tell keepers to punt/long goal kick so don't rush to blame keeper. The last thing that does not get discussed as keepers is communication. Organizing backs/midfielders is very important and keepers are in the best position. If a keeper is shy, then he'll often be subjected to more shots. Fortunately, my son appears to very good at communication.
Finally, in my opinion, keepers also are often subjected much more physical abuse than field players. You don't see play acting when keeper goes down. Fortunately, my son has not had any head issues while many of the keepers he trained with in the past have suffered concussions and have had to leave soccer behind. However, he has many, many bumps and bruisers that he has generally be able to play through.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 17, 2022, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 16, 2022, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: hiyasoccer on October 15, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
I call bullcrap there is no meaningful amount of goalie coaches teaching their players to parry/box instead of catch... it's just not a thing. Every coach wants their keeper to catch.
What's probably actually happening is that lots of D3 goalies just aren't very good and are liable to give up bad rebounds because they don't have the technique and training to hold the ball, so they try to parry instead and probably get some pressure from head coaches to do that if they have given up bad rebounds trying to catch before.
Goalie is a bit unique in that being good at it requires a large number of hours of specialized training and most kids don't get that, even many one's that are solid high school and club players.
Agree. GK Play is the difference maker as we get to tournament play. No legitimate GK coach at a higher level is spending extra time on punches or parry - as the focus should be holds. The teams that can recruit a GK that meets the eye test and has good hands a feet will have a distinct advantage in one and done postseason play. GK play does not dazzle in many d3 games - but gets the job done. Most fans have little exposure to what good vs great GK play or training is - and won't realize what they dont have - or what could have been if they had a GK with better training and pedigree.....
And don't get me started on all the punts and long goal kicks we see in D3 play......play it short - leverage possession with a GK that can not only stop balls, but use his feet and head to build from the back. Lots of rec league punters out there. I can almost hear their moms yelling "great kick" as the orange slices are prepared for the post game snack.
As a parent of current starting D3 keeper, I've held back from this conversation re: punch v. catch. You all know that it is key (if not most important position) on the field. Mistakes are made and sometimes keepers lose games, but you have to look at the entire team before you blame a keeper for not catching and instead punching. Keepers get to make mistakes (soft goals) and they do at every level.
I've always said to my son so he can function is that you get to make at least one mistake a game. If he does make the mistake, his team still should win. If he makes a second then it should be a tie. If your team is good, they should be able to score at least 2 goals. If the team can't do that then maybe it is a team issue and not a keepers who makes a mistake(s) a game. Don't see many if any posts on lack of finishing/putting balls on frame in D3. In fact, I often think (to include my son's team) that teams make keepers look really good with the incredibly weak shots I have seen at the D3 level. Son also started at the D1 level so I can comment on that. If it gets to the keeper, it had to go through 10 other players before he even gets a chance to make a mistake.
As to playing out of the back, I agree. My son has become good field player and cuts off many opportunities with his feet/head before it even gets to the 18. Concerning distribution, he rarely if ever punts/long goal kicks in his club and college career. He can punt/long goal kicks really well, but only does this rarely and wholly depends on whether his back are up to the pressure. He also has worked hard on hitting his midfield on his side of the field in the air to break presses. FYI, coaches do tell keepers to punt/long goal kick so don't rush to blame keeper. The last thing that does not get discussed as keepers is communication. Organizing backs/midfielders is very important and keepers are in the best position. If a keeper is shy, then he'll often be subjected to more shots. Fortunately, my son appears to very good at communication.
Finally, in my opinion, keepers also are often subjected much more physical abuse than field players. You don't see play acting when keeper goes down. Fortunately, my son has not had any head issues while many of the keepers he trained with in the past have suffered concussions and have had to leave soccer behind. However, he has many, many bumps and bruisers that he has generally be able to play through.
Totally agree with the general points made about goalkeeping in this post. It's absolutely true that GKs are held to an overly high standard and mistakes are magnified in a way that ones higher up the field get obscured. Rather than telling keepers that you get 1-2 mistakes or something like that, best advice I've heard on how to dial down that pressure is from a relatively famous GK coach in SoCal who told his charges that they get to count saves like strikers count goals. If you make a relatively easy save on an "incredibly weak shot," you get to count that as a goal just like a striker counts an easy tap-in as a goal. If you make an incredible top-hand save, it's like you made a bicycle kick or straight volley goal from outside the box. His point was not that you could ignore mistakes, but start by celebrating the saves ("goals") you make, especially so you can have confidence during the game that you are still a good player, and then work on what you need to do better on the training grounds. A little positivity works wonders for a player's mentality.
The reality, though, is that if you watch some goalkeepers enough, you realize that they simply can't catch, haven't been taught to do so from an early enough age to make it an ingrained habit, and/or haven't been corrected by coaches who don't know the difference. So, most of the criticism of goalkeepers who block or parry when they could have caught the ball is less criticism of that particular GK and more criticism from some of us old-timers who are frustrated at the way current goalkeeper coaching has moved away from an emphasis on catching. As I've written before, some of that is from the added responsibilities of the modern GK (many of us played when the GK could pick up a back pass with his hands, for instance), some of it is from changes in the ball, gloves etc, and some of it is from coaching pressures to win. Contrary to one poster's assertion, I know for a fact that many European GK coaches actually correct youth GKs who try to catch a ball in some drills because they aren't focused on catching; they're focused on tipping, parrying etc. I've seen multiple French GK coaches in the US run sessions over a full year or two and they are all aimed at the impossible diving tip, or the deflection drill, with very little emphasis on the "meat and potatoes" work of catching (a phrase former MLS GK Jon Busch uses to describe some of his training sessions). If a GK catches the ball, some of these European GK coaches do the drill again because the service should be such that they can't catch the ball. At training sessions at an Atletico Madrid youth academy earlier this year, I saw the coaches actually tell kids who caught a ball - not just tried to and fumbled it - to parry instead because although they caught it this time, it's too risky in the game. And they were speaking English because this was part of a program for US goalkeepers selected to train for a week at Atleti's residence academy. I get what they were trying to say. Just like playing out of the back doesn't mean you never kick the ball long (a part of that strategy coaches and players often forget), sometimes there are too many bodies flying around for a catch. It's hard to replicate that traffic in training, though, especially when GKs are acting as stand-ins for strikers, so the Atleti coaches were trying to simulate it. And, of course, the point of the "catch the damn ball" refrain is that you go for a catch with two hands first and then, if you see you can't, you can always parry or reach one arm farther to punch or tip. Nevertheless, when that is the focus of GK coaching, rather than the "extra," it's easy to see why a lot of GKs don't place as much priority on the catch is a first option.
Quote from: Kuiper on October 17, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
So, most of the criticism of goalkeepers who block or parry when they could have caught the ball is less criticism of that particular GK and more criticism from some of us old-timers who are frustrated at the way current goalkeeper coaching has moved away from an emphasis on catching. As I've written before, some of that is from the added responsibilities of the modern GK (many of us played when the GK could pick up a back pass with his hands, for instance), some of it is from changes in the ball, gloves etc, and some of it is from coaching pressures to win. Contrary to one poster's assertion, I know for a fact that many European GK coaches actually correct youth GKs who try to catch a ball in some drills because they aren't focused on catching; they're focused on tipping, parrying etc. I've seen multiple French GK coaches in the US run sessions over a full year or two and they are all aimed at the impossible diving tip, or the deflection drill, with very little emphasis on the "meat and potatoes" work of catching (a phrase former MLS GK Jon Busch uses to describe some of his training sessions). If a GK catches the ball, some of these European GK coaches do the drill again because the service should be such that they can't catch the ball. At training sessions at an Atletico Madrid youth academy earlier this year, I saw the coaches actually tell kids who caught a ball - not just tried to and fumbled it - to parry instead because although they caught it this time, it's too risky in the game. And they were speaking English because this was part of a program for US goalkeepers selected to train for a week at Atleti's residence academy. I get what they were trying to say. Just like playing out of the back doesn't mean you never kick the ball long (a part of that strategy coaches and players often forget), sometimes there are too many bodies flying around for a catch. It's hard to replicate that traffic in training, though, especially when GKs are acting as stand-ins for strikers, so the Atleti coaches were trying to simulate it. And, of course, the point of the "catch the damn ball" refrain is that you go for a catch with two hands first and then, if you see you can't, you can always parry or reach one arm farther to punch or tip. Nevertheless, when that is the focus of GK coaching, rather than the "extra," it's easy to see why a lot of GKs don't place as much priority on the catch is a first option.
Thanks for this... I have also gone out of my way to praise a goalie when they deserve it. Most notably Eastern's freshman from last year, and a few of the NESCAC playoff games I watched brought praise.
And also for the information on GK training. I don't have any specific recent camp or coaching interaction, but it's just SO WIDESPREAD that I find it difficult to believe there hasn't been a sea change in how GK's are being trained.
Okay yeah I knew I wasn't arguing with myself. :D
Kuiper that is useful info on the data/evidence you have for a change in goalkeeper coach philosophy, and it is more up to date than my personal experience (I graduated 5 years ago). Thank you for sharing.
That said, I am not overly convinced, no offense to you intended - I am just going to be somewhat slow to update my priors here because I have a fair amount of anecdotal evidence the other way. Also those goalie coaches sound like potentially incompetent outliers, in a year of goalie training you should spend no more than say 4 sessions at a maximum specifically on extension diving, it is just a low ROI technique to train.
Maybe I am off base here because I am just pre filtering in my head to talk about competent/reasonable goalie coaches, and possibly the proportion of those has fallen as a percent of the population (or perhaps the world disagrees with me on what competent goalie coaching is).
A confounding factor a couple other posters mention is the quality of ball striking which is interesting. In D3 anecdotally I don't think there are many players that can truly strike a ball with pace, accuracy, and movement. Honestly a bit annoying to me because shot stopping was one of my strengths. In academy before college though there were a decent number of players who could, and catching a ball hit with real pace and movement is a significantly bigger challenger (you will see pro keepers parry balls hit mostly right at them because of the pace and knuckle). I wonder if Euro keepers train that more because there is probably an even higher proportion of good ball strikers there? I'm speculating here.
I do have a funny anecdote on euro goalkeeper coaches though. One of my coaches in high school was a Serbian guy in grad school nearby playing at the University. According to him (and I haven't discounted the possibility he was messing with us), his goalie coach would tie his hands together during training to force him to collapse-dive with two hands to be able to catch the ball. Threatened to do that to us frequently when we would dive low with one hand.
Also, general apologies for the harsh wording in my initial post on the matter. I generally try to hold myself to a higher bar of engagement, I'll do my best to not be such a butt in the future.
Something really intrigues me about St Olaf. All of their losses have been on the road, which made me second guess them, even though 3 of their losses have been to really good teams on the road (north park, Chicago and Gustavus Adolphus.)tonight they put the hammer to UW Platteville on the road. IMO they may take the pool A out of the MIAC and would be a team that I would not want to face come tournament time. They're fast, quick, organized and can put the ball in the back of the net. They were impressive tonight.
Pre Championships Manual forgot UW-Whitewater men for Appendix B Men's Sponsorship.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2022-23D3XSO_PreChamps.pdf
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 17, 2022, 02:18:36 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on October 17, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
So, most of the criticism of goalkeepers who block or parry when they could have caught the ball is less criticism of that particular GK and more criticism from some of us old-timers who are frustrated at the way current goalkeeper coaching has moved away from an emphasis on catching. As I've written before, some of that is from the added responsibilities of the modern GK (many of us played when the GK could pick up a back pass with his hands, for instance), some of it is from changes in the ball, gloves etc, and some of it is from coaching pressures to win. Contrary to one poster's assertion, I know for a fact that many European GK coaches actually correct youth GKs who try to catch a ball in some drills because they aren't focused on catching; they're focused on tipping, parrying etc. I've seen multiple French GK coaches in the US run sessions over a full year or two and they are all aimed at the impossible diving tip, or the deflection drill, with very little emphasis on the "meat and potatoes" work of catching (a phrase former MLS GK Jon Busch uses to describe some of his training sessions). If a GK catches the ball, some of these European GK coaches do the drill again because the service should be such that they can't catch the ball. At training sessions at an Atletico Madrid youth academy earlier this year, I saw the coaches actually tell kids who caught a ball - not just tried to and fumbled it - to parry instead because although they caught it this time, it's too risky in the game. And they were speaking English because this was part of a program for US goalkeepers selected to train for a week at Atleti's residence academy. I get what they were trying to say. Just like playing out of the back doesn't mean you never kick the ball long (a part of that strategy coaches and players often forget), sometimes there are too many bodies flying around for a catch. It's hard to replicate that traffic in training, though, especially when GKs are acting as stand-ins for strikers, so the Atleti coaches were trying to simulate it. And, of course, the point of the "catch the damn ball" refrain is that you go for a catch with two hands first and then, if you see you can't, you can always parry or reach one arm farther to punch or tip. Nevertheless, when that is the focus of GK coaching, rather than the "extra," it's easy to see why a lot of GKs don't place as much priority on the catch is a first option.
Thanks for this... I have also gone out of my way to praise a goalie when they deserve it. Most notably Eastern's freshman from last year, and a few of the NESCAC playoff games I watched brought praise.
And also for the information on GK training. I don't have any specific recent camp or coaching interaction, but it's just SO WIDESPREAD that I find it difficult to believe there hasn't been a sea change in how GK's are being trained.
GKs are absolutely getting trained on how to punch and parry - but the priority and desire is a hold. IF you can hold it, hold - as no one wants a ball back in play, or a corner kick opportunity created. The great keepers have to make that decision in a split second, and then apply the skill (Punch, parry) to place the ball in the second best spot - the first being in their hands. I truly believe that to win a national championship, to even go deep in the tournament, a team must have a plus keeper. They will be the difference. And a plus keeper is not determined by shot stopping.....at the collegiate level - every one of them is a capable shot stopper. The plus keepers are evident by the way the move their feet, use their feet, get in position, handle crosses, dominate the 6 yard box, and I would argue - communicate and direct the back line (which I hear and see so infrequently in the D3 game). And be warned, I don't think most teams need a plus keeper to be successful in conference - and in many regards, may think they have one........but when the talent pool and team strength increases at tournament time - the big moments will as well. For the discerning eye - they see the saves a plus GK should/could of made even when the rest of the crowd says "Nothing he could have done about that". A GK may live a whole season to make one save, in one moment - that is the difference between moving on or not.....
The biggest weakness I see with keepers here is ball distribution, they are all very good, especially in the air but lack the ability to turn the save into offensive pressure on their opponent.
Quote from: camosfan on October 18, 2022, 08:31:36 AM
The biggest weakness I see with keepers here is ball distribution, they are all very good, especially in the air but lack the ability to turn the save into offensive pressure on their opponent.
Like maybe a certain Allison last weekend? Talk about the difference between excellent and world class...
His counterpart in that game is probably the best current keeper at that, your view?
Quote from: camosfan on October 18, 2022, 11:42:10 AM
His counterpart in that game is probably the best current keeper at that, your view?
Yeah, Ederson has the best foot skills of any keeper I know off, particularly off the floor. I don't know that he's the best decision-maker out there but he can strike and place a ball exquisitely.
Just to jump into the GK discussion, I have two sons that play/ed keeper in collegiate soccer. I actually think the most important trait in a keeper is an intangible. Does he instill confidence and trust in the defense? Of course, that assumes so many of the skills mentioned above as well as good decision making. A defense that trusts its GK doesn't overthink, doesn't overcompensate, doesn't react impulsively. They just play and know what to expect (and not expect) from their GK.
The NVU derby resumed after a two year hiatus with NVU-Johnson winning 3-1 over NVU-Lyndon to retain possession of the highly coveted Green Mountain Maple Syrup Golden Bucket. NVU-Lyndon has not held the Bucket since a 7-3 win in 2016.
Wisc-Eau Claire moves to 15-2...solid win over St John's who is usually a mid-tier or higher MIAC. UWEC lost a little steam with the two losses but top 25 and even a NCAA bid aren't necessary to appreciate such a great year only two years into the program.
Similarly, Emerson (yes, Emerson) is now 9-5-1. Just making the NEWMAC playoffs would be huge for that program.
I forgot to note that Centre has won two in a row. All SAA teams play in their tournament, so who knows. There's certainly no clear powerhouse that Centre coudn't beat on the day.
Correction...Emerson is 9-1-5.
Quote from: camosfan on October 18, 2022, 08:31:36 AM
The biggest weakness I see with keepers here is ball distribution, they are all very good, especially in the air but lack the ability to turn the save into offensive pressure on their opponent.
I agree with the ball distribution.....and while one could make an argument about ability in the air - the biggest part of that is reading the play, seeing the players on the field, and discerning when to engage a ball/play. A plus GK is brave. A plus GK knows when to hold his line, and when to come off of it. A plus goal keeper doesn't let a ball bounce in the box. A plus goal keeper is strong enough to battle through the mix and will go through players to make sure he has that ball (dominating the 6 yard box). While I would agree that all can be good in the air - as in they have the ability to jump and catch - its all the aforementioned things that will establish position and dominance.....a plus keeper will change the other teams attack - their ability will make them rethink crosses and corner kicks that place the ball anywhere near the 6. I see too much hesitation. I see too many half hearted punches that people cheer for.....if you come off your line show me you can get it.....
Last night in the Middlebury v WPI game, late in the second half, I think with about 6 minutes to go, the WPI keeper made a top class flick over the crossbar to save the game.
It seems like the men's Regional Rankings have been posted (https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings) but they have no W-L-T records included.
NOTE: these are in alphabetical order, not ranked order.
Region I
Amherst
Bowdoin
Hamilton
JWU (Providence)
Middlebury
Wesleyan (CT)
Williams
Region II
Babson
Coast Guard
Endicott
Roger Williams
Wheaton (MA)
WPI
Region III
Clarkson
Rochester (NY)
St. Lawrence
SUNY Cortland
SUNY New Paltz
SUNY Oneonta
Vassar
Region IV
Lancaster Bible
Lycoming
Misericordia
Montclair St.
NYU
Rowan
Stevens
Region V
Catholic
Drew
Elizabethtown
Franklin & Marshall
Gettysburg
John Hopkins
Messiah
Region VI
Christopher Newport
Lynchburg
Mary Washington
Roanoke
Sewanee
Virginia Wesleyan
Washington & Lee
Region VII
Carnegie Mellon
CWRU
Denison
John Carroll
Kenyon
Ohio Northern
Rose-Hulman
Region VIII
Calvin
Concordia Wisconsin
Dominican (IL)
North Central (IL)
North Park
UChicago
WashU
Region IX
Gustavus Adolphus
Loras
Luther
St. Olaf
Wartburg
Wisconisn-Eau Claire
Wisconisn-Platteville
Region X
Cal Lutheran
Colorado Col.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Pacific Lutheran
St. Thomas (TX)
Trinity (TX)
Williamette
No Tufts or CT College. But I think they're right on the bubble so they could pop in there next week with good results
I'm a bit surprised to see Cal Lutheran on there for Region X. They did challenge themselves with a stronger SOS than Occidental and tied Willamette and lost to Pacific Lutheran, but they've lost to Pomona-Pitzer, tied La Verne and a bunch of other non-ranked opponents, and they haven't won a single game against a team in the top half of SCIAC. It feels like at some point you have to actually win some games. They are 5-2-6.
Crazy, crazy season.....Guilford is now better than Messiah. Did not see that coming.
Actually...as Flying Weasel pointed out...these rankings are alphabetized...so Messiah and their fans need not be concerned.
Big brother, Oneonta, said to little brother, Cortland "not so fast." Oneonta 3-0.
Similar deal with Mary Washington and (I swear it's the same school) St Mary's. 3-0 Mary Washington.
Kenyon gets the big win at home over Denison but it wasn't easy and the scoreline of 3-0 is deceptive. Kenyon controlled possession in the 1st half but rarely threatened. Denison seemed to gain momentum by getting to the half 0-0, coming out and putting Kenyon in retreat mode for the first 10-12 minutes of 2nd half before Kenyon turned the tables again and finally broke through in the 62nd minute. Scotty Upton made a beautiful back heel play to set up the second goal and about 10 minutes later Upton nailed a free kick into top left corner. Denison is very physical and unafraid. Bianco has transformed that program and the team now reflects him. He is excellent at game planning and the psychology of the game. Denison reminds me of Lynchburg (ignoring today's Lynchburg result)....physical, gritty, willing to defend for long stretches, waiting for opportunities, having the capacity to take over the play in 5-7 minute stretches, and probably a handful of talented offensive players who are slippery, use their bodies well, and can score. All that said, the Owls remain unbeaten in the NCAC and have not lost a regular season NCAC match since 2016. Who'd they lose to, for their one NCAC loss in 2016 and 2015? DePauw. Two years in a row in Kenyon's two back to back Elite 8 seasons.
Quote from: northman on October 19, 2022, 07:05:29 PM
Actually...as Flying Weasel pointed out...these rankings are alphabetized...so Messiah and their fans need not be concerned.
If you were responding to me that was a joke. Guilford is not ranked and never will be. But congrats on Bowdoin!
My 88 year old mother actually lives 3/4 of a mile from the Guilford campus. Guilford imo should be better but they are one of the many D3 schools that was probably struggling with viability before Covid and certainly considered at risk in the middle of and in the wake of Covid.
Not savvy enough to realize you were joking... By the way, without having done the research, is Guilford in the Carolinas?
Quote from: northman on October 19, 2022, 07:41:16 PM
Not savvy enough to realize you were joking... By the way, without having done the research, is Guilford in the Carolinas?
Yes, Greensboro.....and no worries, you're still rounding back into shape.
:)
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 19, 2022, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: northman on October 19, 2022, 07:05:29 PM
Actually...as Flying Weasel pointed out...these rankings are alphabetized...so Messiah and their fans need not be concerned.
If you were responding to me that was a joke. Guilford is not ranked and never will be. But congrats on Bowdoin!
My 88 year old mother actually lives 3/4 of a mile from the Guilford campus. Guilford imo should be better but they are one of the many D3 schools that was probably struggling with viability before Covid and certainly considered at risk in the middle of and in the wake of Covid.
Horrid loss for Lynchburg. Just mind blowing. Guilford really shouldn't be better, nor will they be. Their entire athletic program struggles, and have never been seen as legitimate in the region. Why would you think they would be better? Their location? There is nothing attractive about that program, or special about the location.....and they typically attract the players that are short or without options - but really want to play in college.
Calvin goes down 1-0 at home to Albion, despite outshooting the Brits 20-4. Ends 32 game regular season conference winning streak for Calvin.
Some interesting results right smack in the middle of the top 10....Calvin loses and Hopkins and NPU draw.
Big results in the OAC....Ohio Northern nips Wilmington 2-1 and John Carroll beats Otterbein 2-0.
OK, my yearly one minute whining rant about karma. Other than giving someone a little sting for something the recipient has no clue what it is for or who is responsible for it, what gets accomplished? What's the goal when the recipient has no idea what ticked you so that there's not even a chance the recipient can correct for it or apologize (or not)? Is it just the little bit of juice the negative karma giver experiences from a middle of the night "get even" slap? I'm fine if someone can't manage to identify him or herself, but at least (if this thing is going to continue to exist here) it would make sense for a reason to be given along with identification of the offending post.
NPU just isn't playing Top 10 soccer right now. In fact, I don't even think that the Vikings are playing Top 25 soccer. Multiple breakaway opportunities came away empty last night, while Carthage, which only had three good looks in the entire game, converted on two of them. No snub intended of the Firebirds, who played with heart and discipline last night and rightly earned the draw, but that should've been a North Park win. Add that to desultory performances against Illinois Wesleyan and Millikin -- and the Vikings didn't even look all that impressive in their 4-0 pummeling of hapless Augustana, which I originally chalked up to disinterest -- and it feels like something got knocked out of the Vikings in that second-half debacle at Chicago that they haven't been able to get back. The only really good performance that I've seen out of the Vikings since then has been the win at Elmhurst.
Of course, as I say this I realize that I'm badmouthing an 11-1-2 team. But the NPU program has earned the right to be held in lofty regard, and the flip side of that is that NPU has to be judged by the standards of a program that has reached at least the second weekend of the D3 tourney in three of the last four seasons.
On the karma thing:
I said it earlier this year and I'll repeat it: It's a very weird and IMO unnecessary system. I've only ever given out positive notes (and just gave you one, PN), because if I've got an issue with someone, I bring it up in the thread... Or if I can't figure a way to be civil or cordial, I just move the "f" on.
This board is EXTREMELY convivial and civil compared to other message boards I've frequented. Anyone that spent any time on the BigSoccer boards in the late 90s/early aughts knows what a free for all can look like.
It probably is a very low-key way to keep people from trolling, but, again, I've only found a couple of times on here where it seemed like someone was motivated by pettiness or some other nefarious type of vibe and they either got fatigued by the lack of reaction or figured out pretty quickly that this group just isn't wired for internet tough-guy nonsense.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2022, 10:39:11 AM
NPU just isn't playing Top 10 soccer right now. In fact, I don't even think that the Vikings are playing Top 25 soccer. Multiple breakaway opportunities came away empty last night, while Carthage, which only had three good looks in the entire game, converted on two of them. No snub intended of the Firebirds, who played with heart and discipline last night and rightly earned the draw, but that should've been a North Park win. Add that to desultory performances against Illinois Wesleyan and Millikin -- and the Vikings didn't even look all that impressive in their 4-0 pummeling of hapless Augustana, which I originally chalked up to disinterest -- and it feels like something got knocked out of the Vikings in that second-half debacle at Chicago that they haven't been able to get back. The only really good performance that I've seen out of the Vikings since then has been the win at Elmhurst.
Of course, as I say this I realize that I'm badmouthing an 11-1-2 team. But the NPU program has earned the right to be held in lofty regard, and the flip side of that is that NPU has to be judged by the standards of a program that has reached at least the second weekend of the D3 tourney in three of the last four seasons.
I was also curious about the NPU results lately, especially the IWU game and the Carthage tie. Also saw a straight red card on someone at the end of the game in the box score, which is unusual.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 20, 2022, 10:46:36 AM
On the karma thing:
I said it earlier this year and I'll repeat it: It's a very weird and IMO unnecessary system. I've only ever given out positive notes (and just gave you one, PN), because if I've got an issue with someone, I bring it up in the thread... Or if I can't figure a way to be civil or cordial, I just move the "f" on.
This board is EXTREMELY convivial and civil compared to other message boards I've frequented. Anyone that spent any time on the BigSoccer boards in the late 90s/early aughts knows what a free for all can look like.
Wow. You're taking me back and making me feel old. BigSoccer during that time period was a riot, in every sense. Who was the guy who was incredibly obnoxious and insightful who wrote the Ode to Brad Friedel after the S. Korea game? Bill something?
Quote from: blue_jays on October 20, 2022, 12:05:21 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2022, 10:39:11 AM
NPU just isn't playing Top 10 soccer right now. In fact, I don't even think that the Vikings are playing Top 25 soccer. Multiple breakaway opportunities came away empty last night, while Carthage, which only had three good looks in the entire game, converted on two of them. No snub intended of the Firebirds, who played with heart and discipline last night and rightly earned the draw, but that should've been a North Park win. Add that to desultory performances against Illinois Wesleyan and Millikin -- and the Vikings didn't even look all that impressive in their 4-0 pummeling of hapless Augustana, which I originally chalked up to disinterest -- and it feels like something got knocked out of the Vikings in that second-half debacle at Chicago that they haven't been able to get back. The only really good performance that I've seen out of the Vikings since then has been the win at Elmhurst.
Of course, as I say this I realize that I'm badmouthing an 11-1-2 team. But the NPU program has earned the right to be held in lofty regard, and the flip side of that is that NPU has to be judged by the standards of a program that has reached at least the second weekend of the D3 tourney in three of the last four seasons.
I was also curious about the NPU results lately, especially the IWU game and the Carthage tie. Also saw a straight red card on someone at the end of the game in the box score, which is unusual.
I hate that rule. As far as I know, soccer is the only NCAA sport in which referees have ongoing jurisdiction after the game is over until they leave the premises. Heck, the rules allow a ref to give you a red card in the stadium parking lot if he feels like it. I'm not kidding about that, either. In every other sport, once the game is over, jurisdiction ends.
The NPU player who was dealt the postgame crimson ducat as he was walking out of the stadium should've kept his mouth shut, but handing out that red card was nothing more than a pure ego trip on the part of a bad ref.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2022, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on October 20, 2022, 12:05:21 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2022, 10:39:11 AM
NPU just isn't playing Top 10 soccer right now. In fact, I don't even think that the Vikings are playing Top 25 soccer. Multiple breakaway opportunities came away empty last night, while Carthage, which only had three good looks in the entire game, converted on two of them. No snub intended of the Firebirds, who played with heart and discipline last night and rightly earned the draw, but that should've been a North Park win. Add that to desultory performances against Illinois Wesleyan and Millikin -- and the Vikings didn't even look all that impressive in their 4-0 pummeling of hapless Augustana, which I originally chalked up to disinterest -- and it feels like something got knocked out of the Vikings in that second-half debacle at Chicago that they haven't been able to get back. The only really good performance that I've seen out of the Vikings since then has been the win at Elmhurst.
Of course, as I say this I realize that I'm badmouthing an 11-1-2 team. But the NPU program has earned the right to be held in lofty regard, and the flip side of that is that NPU has to be judged by the standards of a program that has reached at least the second weekend of the D3 tourney in three of the last four seasons.
I was also curious about the NPU results lately, especially the IWU game and the Carthage tie. Also saw a straight red card on someone at the end of the game in the box score, which is unusual.
I hate that rule. As far as I know, soccer is the only NCAA sport in which referees have ongoing jurisdiction after the game is over until they leave the premises. Heck, the rules allow a ref to give you a red card in the stadium parking lot if he feels like it. I'm not kidding about that, either. In every other sport, once the game is over, jurisdiction ends.
The NPU player who was dealt the postgame crimson ducat as he was walking out of the stadium should've kept his mouth shut, but handing out that red card was nothing more than a pure ego trip on the part of a bad ref.
I agree the rule is crazy, however the player is at fault not only could he not keep his big mouth shut he ends up hurting his team in the long run. He probably was not thinking about his action before he saw the red card. I wonder if the coach had any idea that his player was not in the right mindset when they were gathered at the bench after the game before he left the stadium. Let's not be to quick to excuse the player's action. I have been to a lot of games over the years and fans and players lose their minds at officials. To often it is the fans and players mouth that get the officials in the wrong state of mind.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 20, 2022, 10:03:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 20, 2022, 10:46:36 AM
On the karma thing:
I said it earlier this year and I'll repeat it: It's a very weird and IMO unnecessary system. I've only ever given out positive notes (and just gave you one, PN), because if I've got an issue with someone, I bring it up in the thread... Or if I can't figure a way to be civil or cordial, I just move the "f" on.
This board is EXTREMELY convivial and civil compared to other message boards I've frequented. Anyone that spent any time on the BigSoccer boards in the late 90s/early aughts knows what a free for all can look like.
Wow. You're taking me back and making me feel old. BigSoccer during that time period was a riot, in every sense. Who was the guy who was incredibly obnoxious and insightful who wrote the Ode to Brad Friedel after the S. Korea game? Bill something?
Bill Archer.
Ohh, BigSoccer! Those were the days!
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2022, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 20, 2022, 10:03:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 20, 2022, 10:46:36 AM
On the karma thing:
I said it earlier this year and I'll repeat it: It's a very weird and IMO unnecessary system. I've only ever given out positive notes (and just gave you one, PN), because if I've got an issue with someone, I bring it up in the thread... Or if I can't figure a way to be civil or cordial, I just move the "f" on.
This board is EXTREMELY convivial and civil compared to other message boards I've frequented. Anyone that spent any time on the BigSoccer boards in the late 90s/early aughts knows what a free for all can look like.
Wow. You're taking me back and making me feel old. BigSoccer during that time period was a riot, in every sense. Who was the guy who was incredibly obnoxious and insightful who wrote the Ode to Brad Friedel after the S. Korea game? Bill something?
Bill Archer.
Ohh, BigSoccer! Those were the days!
Bill Archer was legendary in his own right. Always reminded me of a saloon in some B rated western. You kind find anything to everything about soccer in one place. From fights, to love fests. Is it still around?
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 21, 2022, 11:18:52 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2022, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 20, 2022, 10:03:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 20, 2022, 10:46:36 AM
On the karma thing:
I said it earlier this year and I'll repeat it: It's a very weird and IMO unnecessary system. I've only ever given out positive notes (and just gave you one, PN), because if I've got an issue with someone, I bring it up in the thread... Or if I can't figure a way to be civil or cordial, I just move the "f" on.
This board is EXTREMELY convivial and civil compared to other message boards I've frequented. Anyone that spent any time on the BigSoccer boards in the late 90s/early aughts knows what a free for all can look like.
Wow. You're taking me back and making me feel old. BigSoccer during that time period was a riot, in every sense. Who was the guy who was incredibly obnoxious and insightful who wrote the Ode to Brad Friedel after the S. Korea game? Bill something?
Bill Archer.
Ohh, BigSoccer! Those were the days!
Bill Archer was legendary in his own right. Always reminded me of a saloon in some B rated western. You kind find anything to everything about soccer in one place. From fights, to love fests. Is it still around?
SC.
Bill Archer - the Don Rickles of American soccer. Yeah, it's out there though I seldom visit. Aside from the entertainment, back then it was the one place to go for information about USMNT and American players abroad when there was very little media attention being given.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 21, 2022, 08:05:14 AMI agree the rule is crazy, however the player is at fault not only could he not keep his big mouth shut he ends up hurting his team in the long run.
I've already said that he was at fault. But the bigger problems are two things that no player and no coach can control: a) a seriously stupid rule that gives NCAA soccer refs jurisdiction after a game is over, even after said ref has left the pitch itself; and b) red cards dealt out by bad refs who are on a power trip.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 21, 2022, 08:05:14 AMHe probably was not thinking about his action before he saw the red card. I wonder if the coach had any idea that his player was not in the right mindset when they were gathered at the bench after the game before he left the stadium.
This didn't take place in the handshake line or while the Vikings were "gathered at the bench." It took place as the player in question was exiting the stadium via the Albany Avenue gate. Unfortunately, soccer refs typically park for a game at the Holmgren Athletic Complex on Albany Avenue, rather than using the parking lot like refs almost always do for other sports aside from baseball and softball (umpires are allowed to park inside the stadium itself, because the parking lot fills up during the day, and the bat-and-ball sports play far more day games than other sports). Rather than using the officials' locker room in the stadium fieldhouse like other sports' refs do to change out of their civvies, soccer refs tend to drive in for games at NPU already in uniform, park on Albany, and lounge around leaning on their cars and shooting the breeze with each other until it's time to go in the gate and start their jobs.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 21, 2022, 08:05:14 AMLet's not be to quick to excuse the player's action.
Huh? Who's excusing the player's action? Did you not read these words:
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2022, 11:47:46 PM
The NPU player who was dealt the postgame crimson ducat as he was walking out of the stadium should've kept his mouth shut
... the first time that I posted them?
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 21, 2022, 08:05:14 AMI have been to a lot of games over the years and fans and players lose their minds at officials. To often it is the fans and players mouth that get the officials in the wrong state of mind.
What got the official in "the wrong state of mind" in the first place was the fact that he called the game poorly, causing
both teams -- players and coaches alike -- to yell at him throughout the contest. He took out his anger on a player who was thoughtless enough to try to get in one last word as he walked past the ref on his way out of the stadium, because a rule that shouldn't be in the book gave the ref license to avenge his injured pride.
Just for the record, referees at all levels are given the authority to red card a coach or player well-after a game is over. Even before the game if "misconduct" is deemed red card worthy. And I've seen it happen multiple times. It's not unique to NCAA, even though it's probably unique WITHIN the NCAA.
Not wading into this specific situation, as I have zero insight, but it's a pretty well-known thing in soccer that you don't get to talk schnizzle to a referee anywhere near the pitch, regardless of the game clock.
Now, where things get murky is when the altercation takes place well away from the actual field. It's supposed to be something that occurs near the game, not really something that happens, say, in the parking lot or at the nearby gas station. :D
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Just for the record, referees at all levels are given the authority to red card a coach or player well-after a game is over. Even before the game if "misconduct" is deemed red card worthy. And I've seen it happen multiple times. It's not unique to NCAA, even though it's probably unique WITHIN the NCAA.
Before the game is not an issue, since jurisdiction in other NCAA sports typically begins before a game. F'rinstance, in both men's and women's basketball jurisdiction begins twenty minutes prior to the scheduled start of the game. At that point, there must be at least one official on the floor. We've all heard stories of players getting technical fouls for hanging on the rim in the layup line; well, that's an example of prior jurisdiction. Similarly, jurisdiction in NCAA softball begins when the umpire first steps onto the field. In NCAA softball all bats must be presented to the umpire for inspection before the game; prior jurisdiction allows the umpire to disallow a bat if it doesn't meet specs (and to also toss a player or a coach if she complains about it).
But
after a game? Men's and women's soccer are the only sports that maintain officials' jurisdiction once a game or match is finished and they've left the playing area. I don't care if other levels of soccer allow officials to red-card afterwards and off the pitch. It's a monumentally stupid rule that empowers martinets and egomaniacs in black shorts and -- this is key -- has absolutely nothing to do with administering the game itself or ensuring player safety, which are ostensibly the only two reasons why the official is present in the first place.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Not wading into this specific situation, as I have zero insight, but it's a pretty well-known thing in soccer that you don't get to talk schnizzle to a referee anywhere near the pitch, regardless of the game clock.
Yes, which is why I said that the player should've kept his mouth shut. I'm not sure if "Nice game, ref," spoken in a sarcastic tone counts as "schnizzle" -- I confess that my schnizzle fu is weak -- but discretion is the better part of valor when one is in the vicinity of someone who has the power to disqualify you from your next game and you're still on what the NCAA considers to be the premises.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AMNow, where things get murky is when the altercation takes place well away from the actual field. It's supposed to be something that occurs near the game, not really something that happens, say, in the parking lot or at the nearby gas station. :D
It's actually not murky at all. This is from the current NCAA soccer rulebook, under Rule 5:
Quote5.4 Jurisdiction
5.4.1 An official's jurisdiction shall begin when they arrive at the site of the
competition and shall end when the official leaves the site of the competition.
The site of the competition is defined as the field, locker rooms, parking
areas and the surroundings generally associated with athletics facilities.
Parking lot? Check. Nearby gas station? Nope. If you want to say your farewell to the ref in a scornful manner, wait until he pulls up at the pump at the Shell a half-mile down the street. ;)
Quick Blitz Weekend Review
Tonight
6:00 -- Trinity (TX) @ St Thomas -- I think I forgot to mention in the video that St Thomas beat Trinity last year in the SCAC tournament final but unfortunately was in its final year before being NCAA tourney eligible. Not sure what that rule is for, but whatever. St Thomas committed the sin of getting most pollsters behind then, picked up a couple of blemishes, and the Celts kind of fell off the radar. Here's a great chance for St Thomas to re-enter "the convo." Meanwhile, Trinity is starting to look like "who we thought they'd be" (nod to Dennis Green). If they get Meese back, watch out.
Saturday
12:00 -- Wesleyan @ Bowdoin -- Bowdoin is rolling....so maybe time for the Polar Bears to falter? Wesleyan needs a result and preferably a win or what was their dream season may dissolve into dust. A loss here and a quarterfinal loss in the NESCAC tourney might keep the Cardinals at home for the big dance.
1:00 -- WPI @ Emerson -- Massive game for Emerson. The Lions need this one or a result next week @ Coast Guard to ensure a NEWMAC playoff spot which might be the first one in Emerson soccer history (only joining the NEWMAC in 2013 from the GNAC). WPI MUST have this game or they may miss the NEWMAC playoffs entirely. WPI has had a very mixed season but their resume include a win over Brandeis, draws with Skidmore and Middlebury, and a 1-0 loss to Amherst.
1:00 -- Cortland St and Brockport St -- Fortunes are fickle. Just less than two weeks ago Brockport was unbeaten in the SUNYAC and seemed to be including towards a likely Poll C if they didn't win the AQ. On paper the Golden Eagles are still in a good spot leading the SUNYAC even after a loss and a draw, but a loss to Cortland and then a quick exit in the SUNYAC tourney could leave Brockport on the outside looking in on selection day. Meanwhile, Cortland is loaded for bear after dropping one to long-time rival Oneonta St.
1:30 -- Amherst @ Hamilton -- Hamilton had been a better road than home team up until the Continental's debacle in Brunswick. Can a young Hamilton side handle that is rolling into Clinton? Serpone has got to be a little frustrated although the Mammoths big picture are in decent shape, but expect Amherst to be even more Amherst-like than usual.
2:00 -- St Joseph's (ME) @ Brandeis -- Great opportunity for the Monks to stick a UAA pelt on their wall. Will Brandeis show up and compete, or are the Judges already halfway to Cancun?
2:00 -- Baldwin-Wallace @ Otterbein -- B-W gets my first mention of the year. The Yellow Jackets have had a tremendous for them but against mainly very unimpressive competition. Otterbein needs to pick up some momentum as the Cardinals at 8-2-3 are not exactly where they expected to be. In terms of likely regionally ranked teams Otterbein beat Denison, drew with Ohio Northern, and lost to CWRU and John Carroll. They need to run the table and the last regular season game at Mt Union may be pivotal especially if the Purple Raiders end up regionally ranked in a couple of weeks.
2:30 -- Mary Washington @ Christopher Newport -- Tough one to call here. Mary Wash seems to be surging at the right time so I'll go with the mild upset in Newport News.
3:00 -- OWU @ Denison -- The mentor versus the hot-shot pupil. Very likely a duel for who gets home field for a repeat match in a NCAC semifinal. Bianco is determined for Denison to show its quality in big matches against big opponents while the Battling Bishops seem to be pulling everything together at the right time. This match also could significantly impact any Pool C chances for both.
3:00 -- SLU @ Skidmore -- When the Liberty League experts on this board can't figure these out I certainly am not going to do so. I have no clue who is gonna win so I'll default to a draw.
3:00 -- Middlebury @ Tufts -- GAME OF THE DAY. When you can't picture either team losing that's a good game...and unfortunately perhaps yet another draw.
4:30 -- Centre @ Sewanee -- Just because....it would so cool to see Centre go on a little run and make some noise in the SAA tournament. Sewanee was cruising and having a historic season until dropping a pair of SAA tilts to Hendrix and Rhodes who jumped to the two top spots and have an important match against one another as well.
5:30 -- Pac Lutheran @ Whitman -- Can the Lutes avoid the same fate as Willamette who just lost to Whitman? Not sure, but Whitman seems to play better when not at home in Walla Walla, and they're at home in Walla Walla.
7:00 -- KZoo @ Calvin -- This typically is a game one might mark as one of the only chances for a Calvin blemish...but not immediately after a Calvin blemish (loss).
7:00 -- Misericordia @ Stevens -- I can't say that first name properly so I don't deserve a comment here.
8:00 -- Texas Lutheran @ Southwestern -- Southwestern is my Region X Emerson College...a program very possibly on the rise with some strong results and another school that is under the radar and has a lot to offer. Tex Lutheran has had a bunch of "good draws" and tight losses. This game may determine whether one of these gets a SCAC playoff spot.
8:30 -- Rhodes @ Hendrix -- See Centre @ Sewanee above.
8:30 -- Wheaton (Ill) @ North Park -- The Vikings will be very anxious to reassert dominance in the CCIW and to protect their hard-won national reputation. Always hard to know which Wheaton team will show as their results are quite mixed, but as the cliche goes, toss out the record books for this kind of rivalry match.
Sunday
Wisconsin-Eau Claire @ Carleton -- The UWEC watch continues. Carleton is having a middling season by their standards as the Knights are a frequent MIAC leader and NCAA team just last year, and they also beat St Olaf and drew with Colorado College.....the point being that a UWEC win here should count as a legit win.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 21, 2022, 12:30:28 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Just for the record, referees at all levels are given the authority to red card a coach or player well-after a game is over. Even before the game if "misconduct" is deemed red card worthy. And I've seen it happen multiple times. It's not unique to NCAA, even though it's probably unique WITHIN the NCAA.
Before the game is not an issue, since jurisdiction in other NCAA sports typically begins before a game. F'rinstance, in both men's and women's basketball jurisdiction begins twenty minutes prior to the scheduled start of the game. At that point, there must be at least one official on the floor. We've all heard stories of players getting technical fouls for hanging on the rim in the layup line; well, that's an example of prior jurisdiction. Similarly, jurisdiction in NCAA softball begins when the umpire first steps onto the field. In NCAA softball all bats must be presented to the umpire for inspection before the game; prior jurisdiction allows the umpire to disallow a bat if it doesn't meet specs (and to also toss a player or a coach if she complains about it).
But after a game? Men's and women's soccer are the only sports that maintain officials' jurisdiction once a game or match is finished and they've left the playing area. I don't care if other levels of soccer allow officials to red-card afterwards and off the pitch. It's a monumentally stupid rule that empowers martinets and egomaniacs in black shorts and -- this is key -- has absolutely nothing to do with administering the game itself or ensuring player safety, which are ostensibly the only two reasons why the official is present in the first place.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Not wading into this specific situation, as I have zero insight, but it's a pretty well-known thing in soccer that you don't get to talk schnizzle to a referee anywhere near the pitch, regardless of the game clock.
Yes, which is why I said that the player should've kept his mouth shut. I'm not sure if "Nice game, ref," spoken in a sarcastic tone counts as "schnizzle" -- I confess that my schnizzle fu is weak -- but discretion is the better part of valor when one is in the vicinity of someone who has the power to disqualify you from your next game and you're still on what the NCAA considers to be the premises.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2022, 11:44:59 AMNow, where things get murky is when the altercation takes place well away from the actual field. It's supposed to be something that occurs near the game, not really something that happens, say, in the parking lot or at the nearby gas station. :D
It's actually not murky at all. This is from the current NCAA soccer rulebook, under Rule 5:
Quote5.4 Jurisdiction
5.4.1 An official's jurisdiction shall begin when they arrive at the site of the
competition and shall end when the official leaves the site of the competition.
The site of the competition is defined as the field, locker rooms, parking
areas and the surroundings generally associated with athletics facilities.
Parking lot? Check. Nearby gas station? Nope. If you want to say your farewell to the ref in a scornful manner, wait until he pulls up at the pump at the Shell a half-mile down the street. ;)
Just to be crystal:
First off, I am not disagreeing with anything you posted.
The point I'm making is that any player or coach that's been around the game long enough is aware that you don't get a free pass to talk negatively to a ref before, during or after a game. (As you said, multiple times.) And if this guy (ref) was displaying Napoleonic complex-like behavior during the game, you can bet your bottom dollar he's going to maintain that posture until he parks it in his Lazy Boy Barcalounger with his tumbler of Chivas in his paw. While it's unique in the NCAA realm, it's very well-known in the soccer universe.
I'm not absolving this ref, at all, but we've all run into a guy/gal that you understand is either having a bad day, or just isn't really cut out for the job and over-compensates by throwing around cards and getting lippy.
I have a TON of respect for refs, but we all know some of them really should find another hobby.
Just to be crystal:
The point I'm making is that any player or coach that's been around the game long enough is aware that you don't get a free pass to talk negatively to a ref before, during or after a game. And if this guy was displaying Napoleonic complex-like behavior during the game, you can bet your bottom dollar he's going to maintain that posture until he parks it in his Lazy Boy Barcalounger with his tumbler of Chivas in his paw. While it's unique in the NCAA realm, it's very well-known in the soccer universe.
I'm not absolving this ref, but we've all run into a guy/gal that you understand is either having a bad day, or just isn't really cut out for the job and over-compensates by throwing around cards and getting lippy.
I have a TON of respect for refs, but we all know some of them really should find another hobby.
[/quote]
Totally agree with you Hopkins. The players and coaches had over 90 minutes to see the type of Official they had for the game and there after.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 21, 2022, 12:32:01 PM
Quick Blitz Weekend Review
Tonight
6:00 -- Trinity (TX) @ St Thomas -- I think I forgot to mention in the video that St Thomas beat Trinity last year in the SCAC tournament final but unfortunately was in its final year before being NCAA tourney eligible. Not sure what that rule is for, but whatever.
Joinng D3 is a four-year process. During those four years of provisional membership, schools are ineligible for NCAA tournaments and championship meets. The purpose is to flush all of the athletic-scholarship-bearing student-athletes out of the system before a program can enter D3 championship play, as well as to give the school sufficient time to come into compliance with all of D3's specific rules (e.g., sponsoring the requisite number of sports). It's pretty commonplace nowadays for a school such as St. Thomas to join a conference while still in the provisional pipeline, or even before entering it, so as to ensure a conference home once the school becomes eligible for postseason play.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 21, 2022, 01:44:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 21, 2022, 12:32:01 PM
Quick Blitz Weekend Review
Tonight
6:00 -- Trinity (TX) @ St Thomas -- I think I forgot to mention in the video that St Thomas beat Trinity last year in the SCAC tournament final but unfortunately was in its final year before being NCAA tourney eligible. Not sure what that rule is for, but whatever.
Joinng D3 is a four-year process. During those four years of provisional membership, . . .
FYI: They have officially shortened provisional membership to a 3-year process. That change was effective for the 2020/21 school year.
Really nice field/complex for St Thomas...part of Dynamo and Dash franchises.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2022, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 21, 2022, 01:44:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 21, 2022, 12:32:01 PM
Quick Blitz Weekend Review
Tonight
6:00 -- Trinity (TX) @ St Thomas -- I think I forgot to mention in the video that St Thomas beat Trinity last year in the SCAC tournament final but unfortunately was in its final year before being NCAA tourney eligible. Not sure what that rule is for, but whatever.
Joinng D3 is a four-year process. During those four years of provisional membership, . . .
FYI: They have officially shortened provisional membership to a 3-year process. That change was effective for the 2020/21 school year.
Right. Forgot about that. Thanks for the correction!
W&L wins 3-1, which isn't a surprise, but the team has some injuries so it's a good result.
A fairly wild affair in Fredericksburg, as CNU is losing 2-3 to Mary Washington. At the half.
Today so far has been about familiar faces....Amherst, Tufts, Bowdoin, Conn Coll, OWU, Oneonta, Cortland, SLU, W&L, etc.
MW with a big win over CNU. My newly adopted squad the Emerson Lions managed to equalize after conceding a goal to WPI in the first three minutes but then conceded again with three minutes left to drop one to WPI. Rutgers-Camden holds Montclair to a 0-0 draw.
The upset of the day (although maybe not an upset) has been Alvernia over Rochester 3-2. @Kuiper was all over that.
Centre's win streak was halted at two as the Colonels fell 1-0 @ Sewanee.
Famed prognosticator, Simplecoach, as expected, won his terribly lopsided matchup with PaulNewman as Jaggar Brooker broke Denison's heart with a late goal to carry OWU to a 1-0 victory. The game appeared to be headed to a 0-0 conclusion in an evenly played affair until the Brooker tally with 6-7 minutes left. Denison had some decent chances but could not get the ball in the net. OWU could have lived with a draw as that would have kept OWU in 2nd place in the NCAC with home field for the NCAC semi with Denison, but they'll gladly take the win and a probable ranked win at that.
Addendum: Doesn't make a lot of difference but I was presumptive about #2 and #3 in NCAC...Wabash could overtake Denison. Denison needs to beat DePauw and @Wooster (likely but not no-brainers either) and for Wabash to lose or draw @OWU. But Denison probably doesn't care whether their semi is @OWU or @Kenyon. Kenyon also must beat Wittenberg to stay clear of OWU.
Some talk about Rochester in another thread. UR now 6-3-4. Three away games left at CWRU, CMU, and Brandeis. All winnable but maybe 2-1 or 2-0-1 more likely. If win all three UR is 9-3-4 which is entirely consistent with recent bids and might depend on CWRU and CMU being regionally ranked at the end as UR, like some other teams, may be a little light on ranked wins. If 2-0-1 they're 8-3-5 and 2-1 makes them 8-4-4. Do the latter two scenarios put them on wrong side of bubble?
They could be competing for one of last Pool Cs with SLU, Hamilton, NYU, and maybe CWRU and/or CMU. Of those SLU is likely to end with a couple of more wins but could be light on ranked wins depending on who is ranked that last week. Of all those listed, Hamilton has three clear ranked wins in the bank, more than any of the others if I'm counting right. I've been saying for a few weeks that Hamilton's fate could come down to this odd last game away at Oneonta. While having 3 ranked wins, Hamilton also could end up with 4 ranked losses. Not sure how the cmte would evaluate that. Worst case, Hamilton loses to Oneonta and their NESCAC quarterfinal and would end up 8-4-4. As for Wesleyan, they may need to beat Conn or at least win a NESCAC quarterfinal and and maybe a semi and then maybe hope the cmte gives them a few "make up for last year's snub" points. The game with Conn is huge and both desperately need that game. As tough a time as Conn has had I would bet a win over Wesleyan and a quarterfinal win gets the Camels in. It will be tight and could come down to whether a team like Williams is ranked at the end.
There definitely will be some teams with unattractive records getting bids, and the average fan may not be fully prepared for how highly valued SoS and ranked wins are.
Can someone please repost the information about how teams qualify for the tournament? I wanna feel like I am studying calculus again for the first time
UWEC nips Carleton 1-0 to move to 17-2.
@EnmoreCat, is it safe to assume Cubeddu won't be back this season?
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 23, 2022, 03:40:59 PM
Can someone please repost the information about how teams qualify for the tournament? I wanna feel like I am studying calculus again for the first time
D3soccer.com has this in much greater detail: https://www.d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/2022-about
Pool A: Win your conference (or conference tournament). Each conference chooses who their automatic qualifiers are; some conferences may not have a post-season tournament and award their AQ to the regular-season champion. 43 conferences receive Pool A bids.
Pool B: If you are in a conference that is too small to receive a Pool A (6 teams are required) or not in a conference you can compete for one of these. There is only one Pool B bid so the "best" team (see Pool C discussion) will get in.
Pool C: All teams that didn't already receive a bid are in this pool. The NCAA creates regional rankings via a complex process I won't begin to describe here but includes records, records against other regionally ranked teams, strength of schedule, strength of opponents' schedules. The top-ranked team from each of the ten regions are compared against each other. The best of the ten is selected by a committee and replaced by the next best team from that region. Rinse and repeat until the 20th bid is awarded.
The 64 teams will then participate in four-team single-elimination pods the first week of the playoffs. The host may or may not be the team that has earned the right to host depending on travel costs (teams fly if they have to travel more than 500 miles so the NCAA does what it can to limit flights) and whether or not a school is already hosting a women's pod (this year women have priority; it alternates). Same thing happens the following week when Round of 16 pods are handed out.
Teams from the same conference will not be forced to play each other in the first round.
Where is SoS available/found?
The data sheets that the NCAA releases with each ranking
Quote from: paclassic89 on October 24, 2022, 10:34:48 AM
The data sheets that the NCAA releases with each ranking
Which are found on the NCAA's page: https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings - see the links at the very bottom.
Weirdly, unless I'm missing something, those data sheets are from November 2021.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 24, 2022, 11:01:49 AM
Weirdly, unless I'm missing something, those data sheets are from November 2021.
LOL, someone forgot to hit the refresh button over at the AA. The women's rankings (https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-women/d3/regional-rankings) have this year's set.
For the NCAA regional data sheets, maybe give D3soccer.com (https://d3soccer.com/) a try! We have the current data sheets that you are looking for.
If you go to our NCAA Regional Ranking pages, for example the 2022 Week 1 men's rankings (https://d3soccer.com/rankings/2022/Men/regional-rankings-1), beside each region heading there is a hyperlink the the data sheet for that region.
The NCAA did have last week's data sheets up on their website at one point--that's how we got them at D3soccer.com--but you are correct that they have now been replaced by last year's final data sheets.
Thanks Ron, appreciate you re-posting.
As things currently stand, with the women receiving hosting priorities, it will be interesting to see which top men's teams get sent to other locations on the first weekend of the tournament. Teams to keep a close eye on, due to the women's program success:
Christopher Newport
Johns Hopkins
Messiah
Calvin
Amherst
Montclair State
Washington & Lee
Mr. Sager will (appropriately) tell me that having to host a men's and a women's pod at the same location is not feasible. I'm not tilting at windmills here.
But, man, it sure blows to have a great season and then have to travel that first weekend.
ETA - With that said, from Hop's perspective (men) it's a lot better of a place than they were last year, when late season stumbles put them firmly on the bubble and they were the very last team to pop up on the screen during the selection show. That was nervy!
Hopkins,
There are some rare exceptions to the hosting process, and most of it relates to access to playing fields, access to housing arrangements and quite frankly does the institution have the capacity and previous capability of handling two NCAA tournament brackets on the same weekend.
As a reference, a few years Back (2017) univ of Chicago hosted both the men's and women's first round weekend not only because they were both top programs within the NCAA, but they both applied to host and had the capacity from a housing and available field standpoint as well having an understanding of how to make the weekend a great success.
The NCAA will accept both men and women's hosting championship sports programs in the same weekend, if they have the assurances and capacity to make it work.
Just sitting in my house wondering if SC had any updates on his preseason top 11 players for the year. Well I think it was his top 17 LOL. I have seen a lot of quality players this year. Here is a few:
Michael Kutsanzira W&L
Aguma Muhumuza Calvin
Ryan Yetishefsky U of Chicago
Richard Gillespie U of Chicago
Arkan Tahsildaroglu NYU
Matt McDonald Messiah
Adan Silva Stevens
Simon Kalinauskas Amherst
Angel Barriga, North Park
Alex Morgret Johns Hopkins
Any predictions on Hamilton at Oneonta? LL folks? Nescacers?
Oneonta will win.
Hamilton used to be one of us LL before they switched to NESCAC a while back.
Problem is that once you start winning and ppl know you are good you start taking their best punch! Everyone is coming at you hard. Good teams who have been good for a while (Oneonta) learn how to deal with this. Teams that are getting good, like Hamilton, have to get this skill as well. Great out of conference tilt for both teams to assess where they are.
I will ask another amateur question. Does it happen that a team is ranked in the USC or D3 Soccer (I won't mention include the D3 Boards ladder just yet, but clearly that's only a season away) polls at the regular season's end and not progress to the tournament?
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 26, 2022, 04:35:01 AM
I will ask another amateur question. Does it happen that a team is ranked in the USC or D3 Soccer (I won't mention include the D3 Boards ladder just yet, but clearly that's only a season away) polls at the regular season's end and not progress to the tournament?
Polls are irrelevant to the NCAA selection process. It certainly happens.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 26, 2022, 04:35:01 AM
I will ask another amateur question. Does it happen that a team is ranked in the USC or D3 Soccer (I won't mention include the D3 Boards ladder just yet, but clearly that's only a season away) polls at the regular season's end and not progress to the tournament?
This was the D3boards Fan Poll final regular season result versus the Tournament selections. Keep in mind, we only did 20 selections last year:
Quote from: jknezek on November 08, 2021, 02:45:12 PM
For the Fan Poll as of last week... this week won't be up until tomorrow most likely...
Teams that did not make the tournament field but were in the poll: #20 CMS (13pts), RV MIT(5pts), and RV Kalamazoo(2pts).
At-Large Bids that made the field but weren't in the poll: Middlebury (4pts), Rowan (0pts), Johns Hopkins (0pts), Gettysburg (0pts), Swarthmore (0pts), Rochester (0pts).
Well done to our voters, who mostly agreed with the committee before the final week of the season.
It happens consistently in the other polls, but not a whole lot of teams in any one year.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 24, 2022, 05:29:05 PM
Just sitting in my house wondering if SC had any updates on his preseason top 11 players for the year. Well I think it was his top 17 LOL. I have seen a lot of quality players this year. Here is a few:
Michael Kutsanzira W&L
Aguma Muhumuza Calvin
Ryan Yetishefsky U of Chicago
Richard Gillespie U of Chicago
Arkan Tahsildaroglu NYU
Matt McDonald Messiah
Adan Silva Stevens
Simon Kalinauskas Amherst
Angel Barriga, North Park
Alex Morgret Johns Hopkins
I have only watched NESCAC games, but interested in seeing who people consider the top d3 players and how it compares to preseason expectations.
I recently saw Wesleyan's #35 Cubeddu live and he was an impressive dribbler and playmaker. He left a lot of broken ankles in his wake.
Quote from: Yankeesoccerdad on October 26, 2022, 11:47:49 AM
I have only watched NESCAC games, but interested in seeing who people consider the top d3 players and how it compares to preseason expectations.
I recently saw Wesleyan's #35 Cubeddu live and he was an impressive dribbler and playmaker. He left a lot of broken ankles in his wake.
Two Cubeddu's in the NESCAC made me wonder if they are brothers or related, but Amherst's Ignacio comes from Florida and Wesleyan's Phillip come from Montclair, NJ.
Phillip didn't play at all in 2021, his junior year. Ignacio hasn't played at all this season.
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 05:37:03 PM
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
WOW. That's an absolute stunner. The Gulls came in with 3 wins on the season.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 05:37:03 PM
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
That is a bad loss, but not sure it's much of blow. MW still has a sky high SoS and the Salisbury loss won't impact their RvR at all. They give up too many goals, though.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 05:46:54 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 05:37:03 PM
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
That is a bad loss, but not sure it's much of blow. MW still has a sky high SoS and the Salisbury loss won't impact their RvR at all. They give up too many goals, though.
Yeah, "bad loss" vs. "blow" is beyond my message board vocab. :) We can reconvene on that after everyone's favorite Guilford surprises the seriously undermanned W&L side tonight. Meanwhile, with less than 5 mns left in Lynchburg, Hampton-Sidney has the Hornets knotted up at 0-0. Hampton-Sidney's outside back Stefan Ngoh had the play of his life denying a goal off the very back of the goal line deep into the second half to preserve the tie thus far.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 05:46:54 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 05:37:03 PM
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
That is a bad loss, but not sure it's much of blow. MW still has a sky high SoS and the Salisbury loss won't impact their RvR at all. They give up too many goals, though.
Yeah, "bad loss" vs. "blow" is beyond my message board vocab. :) We can reconvene on that after everyone's favorite Guilford surprises the seriously undermanned W&L side tonight. Meanwhile, with less than 5 mns left in Lynchburg, Hampton-Sidney has the Hornets knotted up at 0-0. Hampton-Sidney's outside back Stefan Ngoh had the play of his life denying a goal off the very back of the goal line deep into the second half to preserve the tie thus far.
Sorry....really just meant to say it won't hurt MW too much.
You can't stop Hampden-Sydney and Guilford...you can only hope to contain 'em.
How about Gustie needing about 89 minutes to beat Hamline today. The had the ball most of the game and secure the MAIC top spot.
I've made this statement on another board. I think St Olaf is the team to watch. They moved into the top 25 of the NCAA rankings this week and IMO have a great shot at winning the MIAC tournament. (Could they be a pool C bracket buster ?, maybe) but I might think they get in the national tournament based on their resume.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 05:46:54 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 05:37:03 PM
Tough blow today to Mary Washington, losing on the road to Salisbury late in the season for the second year in a row.
That is a bad loss, but not sure it's much of blow. MW still has a sky high SoS and the Salisbury loss won't impact their RvR at all. They give up too many goals, though.
Yeah, "bad loss" vs. "blow" is beyond my message board vocab. :) We can reconvene on that after everyone's favorite Guilford surprises the seriously undermanned W&L side tonight. Meanwhile, with less than 5 mns left in Lynchburg, Hampton-Sidney has the Hornets knotted up at 0-0. Hampton-Sidney's outside back Stefan Ngoh had the play of his life denying a goal off the very back of the goal line deep into the second half to preserve the tie thus far.
On the potential for a Guilford surprise, it's 0-0 at halftime despite W&L having a 13-2 advantage on shots and a 6-1 advantage in shots on goal.
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
I'm not saying I called it, but... (scrolls up)... yeah, there it is. Half the W&L side is hurt or sick, and they have not looked like a team that can score all season. Defense is very, very good with a pair of CBs to be put up against anyone. But one of them is nicked, and both outside backs and the freshman GK are out.
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
I'm not saying I called it, but... (scrolls up)... yeah, there it is. Half the W&L side is hurt or sick, and they have not looked like a team that can score all season. Defense is very, very good with a pair of CBs to be put up against anyone. But one of them is nicked, and both outside backs and the freshman GK are out.
You did call it. Ugh.
Quote from: Another Mom on October 26, 2022, 07:42:46 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
I'm not saying I called it, but... (scrolls up)... yeah, there it is. Half the W&L side is hurt or sick, and they have not looked like a team that can score all season. Defense is very, very good with a pair of CBs to be put up against anyone. But one of them is nicked, and both outside backs and the freshman GK are out.
You did call it. Ugh.
Sorry, Mom... and Mom's hat.
But it's a set-up game. Guilford needs the win, and W&L is a shell of itself today.
Quote from: Another Mom on October 26, 2022, 07:42:46 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
I'm not saying I called it, but... (scrolls up)... yeah, there it is. Half the W&L side is hurt or sick, and they have not looked like a team that can score all season. Defense is very, very good with a pair of CBs to be put up against anyone. But one of them is nicked, and both outside backs and the freshman GK are out.
You did call it. Ugh.
3-0.....game over
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on October 26, 2022, 07:42:46 PM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on October 26, 2022, 07:33:37 PM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 07:24:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
And now 1-0 Guilford.
Ummmm.....2-0.
Guilford....the season spoiler.....Wow.
I'm not saying I called it, but... (scrolls up)... yeah, there it is. Half the W&L side is hurt or sick, and they have not looked like a team that can score all season. Defense is very, very good with a pair of CBs to be put up against anyone. But one of them is nicked, and both outside backs and the freshman GK are out.
You did call it. Ugh.
3-0.....game over
As the 7th ranked team in the country, they should have been able to beat guilford with the whole starting 11 out....a 3-0 loss?! goodbye top 25.......
You should adjust your name to BulletinBoardMessi, lol.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 26, 2022, 08:07:09 PM
You should adjust your name to BulletinBoardMessi, lol.
Great idea. Thanks
That is a crazy result W & L downed by Guilford. Looks like the team was looking pass them.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 26, 2022, 08:20:59 PM
That is a crazy result W & L downed by Guilford. Looks like the team was looking pass them.
maybe so.....but they were diminished with players out - however, they really haven't shown a set system of play this year. As good as the individual talent on the field versus a unified style and system.....
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on October 26, 2022, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 26, 2022, 08:20:59 PM
That is a crazy result W & L downed by Guilford. Looks like the team was looking pass them.
maybe so.....but they were diminished with players out - however, they really haven't shown a set system of play this year. As good as the individual talent on the field versus a unified style and system.....
Kudos to Roman Robinson - looks like he showed well in goal. 8 saves on the night.....dont want to take anything away from that GK performance/
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 26, 2022, 08:20:59 PM
That is a crazy result W & L downed by Guilford. Looks like the team was looking pass them.
Definitely crazy. Maybe looking to the ODAC quarters in Saturday. They started one of their backups and Guilford scored 2 off of him. He was later subbed. Seems like most of there starters played, but the Guilford definitely played well. W&L ended up in 2nd place behind Lynchburg. ODAC has so many teams (13) that they don't play everyone in the conference.
In the scoring arena one of SC's preseason picks, Will Isaac of Otterbein, is up to 15 G and 4 A.
Otterbein spotted Marietta a 2-0 lead and won 3-2.
Ohio Northern blew out Baldwin-Wallace 5-1, and John Carroll beat Mt Union 2-0.
UWEC with another very solid win over UW-W. 18-2.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 26, 2022, 09:11:25 PM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 26, 2022, 08:20:59 PM
That is a crazy result W & L downed by Guilford. Looks like the team was looking pass them.
Definitely crazy. Maybe looking to the ODAC quarters in Saturday. They started one of their backups and Guilford scored 2 off of him. He was later subbed. Seems like most of there starters played, but the Guilford definitely played well. W&L ended up in 2nd place behind Lynchburg. ODAC has so many teams (13) that they don't play everyone in the conference.
FYI W&L plays Guilford again in the ODAC quarters.
Multiple references last evening to W&L's roster being seriously depleted. Is this a situation that W&L Nation expects to be much improved over the next couple of weeks?
Reading into those posts, sure seemed like the team got hit by an illness/bug...
There are a couple of key players injured and yes, there is a )noncovid) bug going around the school and team.
I'm gonna skip going through games to watch this weekend, as at this point the biggest matches nationally are pretty obvious and folks with specific regional interests know which games are key in terms of postseason hopes.
Couple of observations...
There was a fair amount of talk just a few weeks ago about Brockport, New Paltz, Plattsburgh, etc but Cortland and Oneonta yet again have landed at the top as the #1 and #2 seeds for the SUNYAC tourney.
With only a week to go and many conference tournaments already underway or starting tomorrow the UAA still has almost half of their season left...three conference games from today to next weekend. The fates of all of them except for Chicago and probably Emory and Brandeis will likely come down to their last three matches.
UW-W has a nice looking field. UW-Platteville up 1-0 early.
In a wild one in Whitewater, UW-W retained the Shaymus Guinn Cup, with a 3-2 win over UW-P. Platteville looked to be in control with a 2-1 2nd half lead but the Warhawks scored in the 80th and 83rd minutes.
Earlier I said a player to watch was NYU's Arkan Tahsildaroglu #9, well against Chicago he did not disappoint. The only other thing that would have completed his day would have been a goal. Congrats Arkan and NYU on a great game with a man down.
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 29, 2022, 10:36:59 AM
Earlier I said a player to watch was NYU's Arkan Tahsildaroglu #9, well against Chicago he did not disappoint. The only other thing that would have completed his day would have been a goal. Congrats Arkan and NYU on a great game with a man down.
Amazing, the last year of club he missed 75% of the season playing high school basketball!
Quote from: camosfan on October 29, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 29, 2022, 10:36:59 AM
Earlier I said a player to watch was NYU's Arkan Tahsildaroglu #9, well against Chicago he did not disappoint. The only other thing that would have completed his day would have been a goal. Congrats Arkan and NYU on a great game with a man down.
Amazing, the last year of club he missed 75% of the season playing high school basketball!
What's amazing? That he missed some club action, or that he played high school basketball?
that he did not focus more on soccer.
Should we focus a tad on the fact that the only two sides in D3 men's soccer coached by women played a great and even match to celebrate the occasion. I believe this is the first time two women head coaches have faced off against one another in the UAA. You historians can fill us in on the last time in D3 men's soccer history that this has happened. That being said hats off to Coach Sitch and Coach Wyant.
Quote from: deutschfan on October 29, 2022, 01:33:46 PM
Should we focus a tad on the fact that the only two sides in D3 men's soccer coached by women played a great and even match to celebrate the occasion. I believe this is the first time two women head coaches have faced off against one another in the UAA. You historians can fill us in on the last time in D3 men's soccer history that this has happened. That being said hats off to Coach Sitch and Coach Wyant.
This!
Some are acting like Chicago's season is over. I am sure they don't care one bit whether they are ranked #1 or #2 or #5. But good on Messiah Nation if it makes them happy. The Falcons have got my all-important vote this week.
I don't vote but Chicago is going to be in Greensboro. They are sooo composed. Being a man up in the first half their composure led to complacency figuring that the goal(s) would come. They won't make that mistake again. They have a long bus ride to Brandeis to talk about it with lunch in Old Saybrook.
Quote from: deutschfan on October 29, 2022, 01:54:37 PM
I don't vote but Chicago is going to be in Greensboro. They are sooo composed. Being a man up in the first half their composure led to complacency figuring that the goal(s) would come. They won't make that mistake again. They have a long bus ride to Brandeis to talk about it with lunch in Old Saybrook.
They are in Virgina this year!
Quote from: deutschfan on October 29, 2022, 01:33:46 PM
Should we focus a tad on the fact that the only two sides in D3 men's soccer coached by women played a great and even match to celebrate the occasion. I believe this is the first time two women head coaches have faced off against one another in the UAA. You historians can fill us in on the last time in D3 men's soccer history that this has happened. That being said hats off to Coach Sitch and Coach Wyant.
I get it. But will say this, I think the way to honor them is to treat them like the excellent coaches that they are.
SC.
Not a big ticket item, esp in the midst of two probable NESCAC PK shootouts....but my boys from Emerson went on the road to New London and came away with a big 1-0 victory over Coast Guard.
W&L back on form, 3-0 at halftime. Guilford player is sent off so they're down one man.
And game over, 7-0.
Big upset in the ODAC -- Hampden-Sydney takes down Lynchburg 1-0.
If I understand it correctly whoever ends up ranked this week will count even if a team falls out the 4th week (which we'll see AFTER the selections).
So as a hypothetical, Denison holds the last spot in Region VII currently. If they are still ranked Weds and OWU beats Denison that would count as a ranked win even if Denison dropped out for week four. That level of detail is important because, again, using this example, OWU only has one ranked win (versus Denison), and if they don't get AQ a second ranked win could be huge. If Denison is not ranked this week and loses to OWU they won't be ranked in week three or four, leaving OWU with zero ranked wins (barring some other team they beat getting ranked that isn't ranked now and I don't see where that would come from).
To add one last wrinkle, I think I read, probably from Cristan Shirk, that the cmtes have leeway to judge higher ranked wins as superior to wins over teams ranked in the last couple of spots (which makes sense). So there could be scenarios where two teams both have two ranked wins but one of the teams has wins over higher ranked teams. If this is incorrect, someone please correct me.
For whoever might be interested, Kenyon and Wabash are playing a NCAC semi TODAY at 2:00 and not tomorrow, as the women's team is playing tomorrow. Other semi with Denison @ OWU remains scheduled for tomorrow night (Weds) at 7:00.
Quote from: Chargers96 on October 29, 2022, 09:06:53 PM
Big upset in the ODAC -- Hampden-Sydney takes down Lynchburg 1-0.
I'm curious to see if this loss, paired with the late season loss to Guilford is enough to keep them from NCAA play. I am sure that many on this board would be able to speak to the system better than I, but it would seem that this unceremonious end to the season doesn't bode well for Lynchburg......
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 01, 2022, 09:49:16 AM
Quote from: Chargers96 on October 29, 2022, 09:06:53 PM
Big upset in the ODAC -- Hampden-Sydney takes down Lynchburg 1-0.
I'm curious to see if this loss, paired with the late season loss to Guilford is enough to keep them from NCAA play. I am sure that many on this board would be able to speak to the system better than I, but it would seem that this unceremonious end to the season doesn't bode well for Lynchburg......
In 2018, Lynchburg was 12-1-2 entering the ODAC tournament. They beat Randolph in QF and then peppered Bridgewater with 25 shots in the semifinal, but Bridgewater managed to score on a free kick (their only shot on goal), thus denying 13-2-2 Lynchburg a spot in the tournament.
I have Lynchburg 34th in RPI currently. As conference playoffs continue and strong teams play strong teams (increasing SOS), they might drop further and could be on the bubble. It all depends on how the AQs shake out
FWIW, Lynchburg is 35 in Massey. He has their SoS as 82...
Interesting game in Delaware, OH tonight, with scenarios that may help newer folks get more insight into the ranked wins talk.
Denison comes into the match at OWU in an almost identical fashion as last year....very solid season, pretty good SoS, but no ranked wins. The Big Red can pick up a ranked win if they beat OWU (assuming OWU is ranked today which I presume they will be) and they can hope that Wilmington somehow gets ranked which is very doubtful. Also not clear that Denison will still be in that last Region VII slot today. Bottom line is Denison almost certainly needs to win the AQ, and so they need to repeat last year's monumental triumph of winning in Delaware and Gambier in back to back NCAC tourney matches. To do that two years in a row would be phenomenal. Of course there's also the mentor-pupil dynamic in this one tonight.
Imo OWU also very well may need the AQ. Let's say they beat Denison and are 9-4-4. The AQ would be in sight, and they already drew with Kenyon to give Kenyon its only blemish, but if they don't get the AQ I think they are in trouble. Excellent SoS but 8-5-4 (if lose to Denison) with no ranked wins and two ranked draws (Kenyon and Loras if Loras is still ranked) is not gonna get it done, and I doubt 9-5-4 (if beat Denison and lose final) will get it done although if Denison is still ranked today beating Denison again would give OWU two ranked wins that are not currently in their pocket. That latter scenario might get them in the discussion but along with at least a handful of teams with similar or slightly better records, solid to strong SoS's, and more ranked wins even if OWU does pick up two.
Bottom line for tonight....must win for both teams.
NCAA regional rankings have updated (https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings)
Loras dropped out of Region IX but Whitewater moved in. That keeps UWEC 2-1 vs ranked.
Why doesn't the NESCAC conference get more teams in the NCAA tournament?
I think it is certainly well known regarding the NESCAC dominance of the recent NCAA tournament. Three straight National Championships with Tufts in 2018 and 2019 and Conn College in 2021. However, peeling back the onion and you will see even more dominance.
Since 2018, the NESCAC record in the NCAA tournament is an astounding 37-8-6. However if you dig even deeper, if you exclude the six games that the NESCAC teams played each other (2018 Tufts Amherst Sweet 16 game, the 2019 Regional Final game between Conn and Tufts, the 2021 Regional Final between Tufts and Conn, the 2021 Regional Final between Amherst and Middlebury and the 2021 National Championship between Amherst and Conn) the record in the last three years against non conference foes is 32-3-4 and all 3 of those losses were in 2018. In the past two years, a NESCAC team has not lost a single game to a non conference foe. In 2019 Middlebury tied Renssalaer but did not advance on PKs.
However during this period of time, was the NESCAC adequately rewarded with NCAA bids?
If you look at two other "power" conferences which frequently get multiple bids, I would argue that they have not been adequately rewarded. During these three years, the NESCAC has had a total of 14 bids or a three year average of 4.67 bids per year. In a conference of 11 teams this represents 42% of its conference.
The Centennial conference, during that same span, had a total of 12 bids for a 3 year average of 4.0 or 40% of their 10 team conference. For that great level of invites, the Centennial Conference produced a 8-10-5 record and lost all four of its head-to-head games against the NESCAC teams.
The UAA conference during this three-year span was awarded 11 bids for a 3 year average of 3.67. In an 8 team conference, this represents 46% of their conference. During this span they went a respectable 15-10-4, thanks to Chicago's impressive record of 8-3 and 7-7-4 record for the others. During this time, the UAA lost both of its head to head matches with NESCAC teams.
I am not sure I can come up with a good explanation for the success of the Centennial conference in attaining bids. In 2021, when they received 5 bids (50% of their conference) they had a fair amount of parity in the top 5 so a fair amount of opportunity for regional wins as the teams swapped beating each other.
I do think that the UAA has a distinct advantage over the other power conferences in that they are spread across several regions allowing them the opportunity to get more regional teams ranked and improve their chances of "regional wins". Their 8 teams are spread across 5 different regions giving them a much better opportunity for most, if not all, of their normal conference games to achieve regional wins.
Without doing a really deep dive, I'd say one good reason is because Winning Percentage is a primary criteria. At some point, due to being in the bottom half of the conference, you have a winning percentage that is simply too low to consider.
You would have to look back at the presumed last team out of the NESCAC each year and look at the winning percentage. If it's below .6 I suspect it starts to get hard to stomach. Even playing in the hardest conference in the country, you still have to win. The extra ties this year will muddy the water a bit, but that's really my guess on why it's hard to get 50% or more of your conference into the tournament.
Let's see what happens this year. Last year most agreed they deserved five and they got four.
I think five is almost definite this year and I'm gonna predict six...which, keep in mind, is nearly a third of the entire number of Poll Cs available. Add in 3-4 for UAA and 3-4 for Centennial and very few slots are left.
Coach, what your detailed analysis does not do is show the draws that especially the top 2-3 NESCACs get. Often the first weekend is almost a joke, and often the Sweet 16 opponent is good but manageable (or doesn't strike fear in your heart). A couple of those years Tufts could have floated to the Elite 8.
It will be interesting because there are at least a couple of regions where one could argue they shouldn't get more than one (and none if the right teams get their AQs)...and that's for the entire region and not just a single conference.
Agreed , coach analytics, as far as the UAA having a distinct advantage for RVR, I would agree they have an advantage against most regions, but since the regional realignments, let's be honest, IMHO,Region 1, in soccer, has been severely watered down. Take a look the current region 1 rankings, although well deserved, you could also argue the Nescac has a similar advantage against most regions due to the fact that hey are playing a majority of their CONFERENCE games against regionally ranked opponents, giving them a built in ability for results vs ranked.
Quote from: 4samuy on November 02, 2022, 04:40:57 PM
Agreed , coach analytics, as far as the UAA having a distinct advantage for RVR, I would agree they have an advantage against most regions, but since the regional realignments, let's be honest, IMHO,Region 1, in soccer, has been severely watered down. Take a look the current region 1 rankings, although well deserved, you could also argue the Nescac has a similar advantage against most regions due to the fact that hey are playing a majority of their CONFERENCE games against regionally ranked opponents, giving them a built in ability for results vs ranked.
And Region 2 is even worse...they have only one truly deserving team in Babson and even Babson got smoked by Conn 3-0. Babson would have been doubtful to finish top 6 in NESCAC.
I agree with that. But IMO, if babson had still been in region 1 they would be on regionally ranked board and could have been ranked above a couple of the Nescac teams and essentially blocking them from getting up to the plate for certain round during the committee debates. I guess who knows, but with Babsons winning pct and 5 results vs ranked I would think that may have happened.
Quote from: 4samuy on November 02, 2022, 05:04:31 PM
I agree with that. But IMO, if babson had still been in region 1 they would be on regionally ranked board and could have been ranked above a couple of the Nescac teams and essentially blocking them from getting up to the plate for certain round during the committee debates. I guess who knows, but with Babsons winning pct and 5 results vs ranked I would think that may have happened.
Right, but my hypothetical was if Babson was in the NESCAC they wouldn't have their current record and easily could be in the W CT spot or off the board entirely.
Another issue with RvR is that the committee is just eyeballing the thing (and sometimes it's not even accurate data! as we found out in Region IV this week) and we know not every ranked match is equal. You can rack up multiple ranked wins against teams in the 5-7 slot of regions and look better than a team who has tougher RvR opponents. Yes, this could be reflected in SoS but sometimes it's not given various scheduling vagaries. There is a hosting and logistical consideration that prevents a national ranking system but, in an ideal world, teams would be ranked nationally using an adjusted RPI that factors in win%, SoS, and has adjustment bonuses/penalties for results against higher ranked or lower ranked teams.
Totally agree. But let's agree hypothetically that there are myriad teams that are ranked that if playing in "other conferences" would struggle. :)
I had thought CWRU might land ahead of CMU. It's very tight and probably doesn't matter as either way Saturday's clash between the two very likely is a play-in game. I don't see both getting bids unless everything breaks perfectly and Kenyon and ONU or JCU win their AQs. Wilmington is pretty good and Otterbein could definitely win the OAC tourney, and we know OWU or Denison are capable of pulling off the NCAC AQ.
Quote from: 4samuy on November 02, 2022, 05:23:26 PM
Totally agree. But let's agree hypothetically that there are myriad teams that are ranked that if playing in "other conferences" would struggle. :)
Yes, absolutely.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Let's see what happens this year. Last year most agreed they deserved five and they got four.
Coach, what your detailed analysis does not do is show the draws that especially the top 2-3 NESCACs get. Often the first weekend is almost a joke, and often the Sweet 16 opponent is good but manageable (or doesn't strike fear in your heart). A couple of those years Tufts could have floated to the Elite 8.
This right here. No one's doubting the NESCAC quality and they deserve all their plaudits, but the eastern teams can fatten up against lesser competition due to the sheer number of schools in the area. The East Region in basketball (in the previous regional ranking system), for example, is a perennial joke.
Paclassic89,
You bring up a critical point, but IMHO do not give the national committee enough credit. IMO They really do drill down when it comes to selection time, and look at RVR and the strength of those results within each region. As you appropriately stated, ranked results, and where those teams are ranked in their respective regions can and should be a factor especially as you get down to some of final pool c spots. You would know more than me about region 4, but I would be surprised if the regional and national committees don't look at where in the regions does a teams RVRs come from.(top or bottom).
At this point in the year, there are teams that are so close,that you almost have to look at where the RVRs are coming from, due to it being a primary criteria.
Washington and Lee, hitting their stride at the right time, win 6-1 against Virginia Wesleyan.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:02:11 PM
Washington and Lee, hitting their stride at the right time, win 6-1 against Virginia Wesleyan.
This board ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED W&L last season because they had an incredible dip in performance and confidence in late October. They were just lost.
I don't have that vibe this year. They seem much less mercurial.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 02, 2022, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:02:11 PM
Washington and Lee, hitting their stride at the right time, win 6-1 against Virginia Wesleyan.
This board ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED W&L last season because they had an incredible dip in performance and confidence in late October. They were just lost.
I don't have that vibe this year. They seem much less mercurial.
I don't recall an incredible dip. Also don't recall them getting hammered. For games played through 10/31/21 they still were #1 in the country. Then they had their one loss of the season until the Final Four in the ODAC tournament so maybe that is the dip...and they dropped all the way down to #3. I certainly wouldn't say they were just lost.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2022, 09:19:20 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 02, 2022, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:02:11 PM
Washington and Lee, hitting their stride at the right time, win 6-1 against Virginia Wesleyan.
This board ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED W&L last season because they had an incredible dip in performance and confidence in late October. They were just lost.
I don't have that vibe this year. They seem much less mercurial.
I don't recall an incredible dip. Also don't recall them getting hammered. For games played through 10/31/21 they still were #1 in the country. Then they had their one loss of the season until the Final Four in the ODAC tournament so maybe that is the dip...and they dropped all the way down to #3. I certainly wouldn't say they were just lost.
So, I did an incredibly nerdy thing today and went back and looked almost all of my posts from the last 2-3 years.
We absolutely were all over W&L because the just didn't look good at the end of season. Hammered them. They lost to early in the ODAC tourney and looked pretty bad, and that was after a few not so great games leading up to that.
You are probably really on point that we over reacted, but this board basically said (correctly, IMO) that the team we fell in love with and deserved the #1 spot was in a weird place in late October. Obviously, they figured it out and made a great run.
I'd do the Mr. Sager multi-quote thing but I don't really feel like it.
I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together, and is clicking.
Yeah, I'm sure there was a big reaction to the loss to Randolph which seemed like a shock at the time, but again, they fell all the way from a remarkably consistent year in which they were basically #1 from week 2 through week 9, and immediately rebounded to make a run to Final Four. I mean it's hard to have a major dip and be lost and enter the tournament as the favorite at 18-1-1 or whatever they were. More important;y, in terms of present tense, I don't think any of know if they've had a dip and are out of it or what because they've played Guilford twice and VWU...the latter an impressive showing to be sure but not sure we know what it means in terms of where they're at.
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.
The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:35:08 PM
I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together, and is clicking.
Sometimes you need a kick in the rear. It's possible losing to Guilford was the kick they needed. Beating Guilford solidly in the ODAC first round didn't mean much, big revenge game against a fairly weak opponent, but Va Wes was having a solid season.
The Marlins are fifth in the Region VI standings this week, and with Lynchburg losing early (4th) a win over W&L would have given them some solid hope at a C as well as possibly an A. Plus it would have helped with the comparison with Sewanee (6th) as a common opponent. This game was huge for the Marlins.
Instead W&L stepped on their neck 3 minutes in and didn't let up, and since Va Wes had to chase at that point, it was very open for W&L to find those spaces and score.
Does this drastically change my opinion on W&L as a top 15 team in the country? Not really. But if W&L is back on the rise at the right time, the talent is there to do some damage to anyone's NCAA title hopes.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 12:42:00 PM
Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.
The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.
Are there warthogs in Wisconsin? I know there are banana slugs in Santa Cruz, but the mascot was definitely chosen as a parody of the fierce mascots used in other schools that (over) emphasize athletics.
Incidentally, the reason that has national interest (outside of the fact that the conference is literally national) is that if anyone other than Christopher Newport wins the tournament, then I'm guessing that will push someone out of a Pool C bid.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 12:42:00 PM
Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.
The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.
Are there warthogs in Wisconsin? I know there are banana slugs in Santa Cruz, but the mascot was definitely chosen as a parody of the fierce mascots used in other schools that (over) emphasize athletics.
Incidentally, the reason that has national interest (outside of the fact that the conference is literally national) is that if anyone other than Christopher Newport wins the tournament, then I'm guessing that will push someone out of a Pool C bid.
CNU OR MW....I think both would be in line for a Pool C.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams. This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota. Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:35:08 PM
I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together, and is clicking.
Going back and reading up... You all are correct, it wasn't really a hammering, just popping off (from me, mostly :-)) because it was the first time I'd seen them play and they just weren't very good against Randolph. I was expecting a Messiah or Tufts-like performance and what I saw was a lot of nerves and no real plan.
They, obviously, fixed all that once they started dancing.
(I was also very annoyed with the camera person :D)
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
This has been brought up for other sports before. The main reason it hasn't happened is because the ODAC likes their conference profile, and CNU doesn't fit it given they're a public school. Combine that with the fact the ODAC is already too big as it is.
Quote from: jknezek on November 03, 2022, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on November 02, 2022, 09:35:08 PM
I don't remember W&L getting hammered here, but I definitely remember them losing momentum, focus, whatever, and not playing well last year. It felt like that (loss of focus) most of this season, but the last 2 games it feels like the team has come together, and is clicking.
Sometimes you need a kick in the rear. It's possible losing to Guilford was the kick they needed. Beating Guilford solidly in the ODAC first round didn't mean much, big revenge game against a fairly weak opponent, but Va Wes was having a solid season.
The Marlins are fifth in the Region VI standings this week, and with Lynchburg losing early (4th) a win over W&L would have given them some solid hope at a C as well as possibly an A. Plus it would have helped with the comparison with Sewanee (6th) as a common opponent. This game was huge for the Marlins.
Instead W&L stepped on their neck 3 minutes in and didn't let up, and since Va Wes had to chase at that point, it was very open for W&L to find those spaces and score.
Does this drastically change my opinion on W&L as a top 15 team in the country? Not really. But if W&L is back on the rise at the right time, the talent is there to do some damage to anyone's NCAA title hopes.
Agreed. Iirc, W&L has never been outside the top 15 or so all season and I think most of us have assumed they would be a force to be reckoned with once we reached the NCAA tourney...especially with so much of last year's team returning (although, tbf, this WAS the time of year last year when Zimmerman became a D3boards household name.
What confused me last night was what seemed like Hopkins' hot take that W&L fell off a cliff last year and was lost for a period of time, and it seemed he was making a point contrasting last season's "dip" with this year and opining that W&L actually has been more consistent, less uneven, (and maybe less lost?) THIS year. Those are the points I don't see, in part because what seemed so remarkable last year was how remarkably well they handled being in the position of "top team in the country" for the first time of their history and did so basically wire to wire. In my mind, there is no question their season this year has been more uneven than last year, which is evident in the significantly higher number of blemishes.
All that said, do I think W&L could land in the Final four again? Yes, absolutely.
The other thing we talked a lot about last year was the idea of building a team that can compete well in November. The W&L coach clearly found a way to refocus that team last year, and it sure sounds like they've found a way to get things back on track this year.
Quote from: stlawus on November 03, 2022, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
This has been brought up for other sports before. The main reason it hasn't happened is because the ODAC likes their conference profile, and CNU doesn't fit it given they're a public school. Combine that with the fact the ODAC is already too big as it is.
This exactly. The ODAC has written into the bylaws that public schools are not allowed. That would have to change and I don't think there is any sentiment in the conference to do so. Nor is there a need. The conference has expanded several times lately, adding Shenandoah, Ferrum, and Averett. All were football playing schools at a time when the ODAC was at or approaching the loss of bid limit for football and teams struggling to find enough non-conference games. With that limit now down to 6, and the conference comfortably at 8 football playing schools with no affiliates, I don't see the ODAC expanding again.
Most of the ODAC sports are ridiculously overcrowded and don't even play full round robins. Men's soccer is one of those. Though women's soccer with 14 teams is particularly egregious and several other women's team sports have 13 teams as well.
OK, OK.....well maybe the NJAC! Just seems absurd for CNU to be so homeless and playing teams the NCAA would never send to even for the NCAA tournament. I'm guessing the furthest West they've gone for the tournament was Gambier, OH.
Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big. But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions. They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 01:50:50 PM
OK, OK.....well maybe the NJAC! Just seems absurd for CNU to be so homeless and playing teams the NCAA would never send to even for the NCAA tournament. I'm guessing the furthest West they've gone for the tournament was Gambier, OH.
You're not wrong. But there isn't an easy solution. CNU, Mary Washington, Salisbury... they were really hurt by Frostburg going D2, Wesley going under, and the CAC having to rebrand when York left. The C2C is a terrible idea. It exists mostly to avoid Pool B and to provide weekly honors to athletes. Everyone of those schools would bail in a heartbeat if they had a better option.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 01:53:57 PM
Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big. But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions. They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.
Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:
4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference
involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each otheremphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure
Quote from: jknezek on November 03, 2022, 02:02:02 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 01:53:57 PM
Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big. But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions. They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.
Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:
4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference
involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each other
emphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure
Didn't say that anybody did....just saying there isn't.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams. This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota. Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.
I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 03, 2022, 02:02:02 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 01:53:57 PM
Btw, I buy the argument that the ODAC already is too big. But I don't buy that the conference has some fidelity to particular types of institutions. They're all private but otherwise there's not really some theme or status that binds them together.
Who said there was? The mission statement, found here: https://odaconline.com/information/purpose is pretty boilerplate. However:
4. Maintaining competitive equity within the conference
involving private institutions, in geographic proximity to each other
emphasizing round-robin conference competition and excellence within the league, with national prominence a by-product rather than a primary emphasis
providing an efficient and effective conference administrative structure
Didn't say that anybody did....just saying there isn't.
Not sure I agree. They are almost all small to medium sized private liberal arts schools in Virginia. Off the top of my head, H-SC, Hollins, and Sweet Briar are all single sex with less than 900 undergrads each. Randolph keeps the doors open with 700 coeds. Ferrum 800 I think. Averett, EMU, Va Wes, Guilford, Bridgewater 1200-1400. R-MC 1500. Roanoke, Lynchburg and W&L around 1800-2100 undergrads. Shenandoah has 2400 undergrads.
But that's the conference profile. There are outliers by different measures, the 3 single sex schools, W&L from an academic and endowment perspective, Shenandoah in size, Guilford being the only school outside Virginia. But mostly, small to midsize liberal arts schools in Virginia.
A public school with 4500 undergraduates would be quite the outlier.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 02:18:39 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams. This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota. Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.
I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.
I really don't understand how they do the seeding in the C2C... Salisbury is 4-11-2... How are they seeded #6? Can't be Massey. I wonder if a lot of these schools just decide not to participate in the tournament?
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 02:18:39 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 01:00:32 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
The odd thing is that UC Santa Cruz already plays a lot of SCIAC teams. This year, they played 6 of the 9 teams by traveling down to Los Angeles 2-3 times each season for multiple game weekends and they usually get at least a couple to make the trip up north by arranging a tournament with some teams from Oregon/Washington and/or Wisconsin/Minnesota. Presumably, SCIAC doesn't want to let them in as a full member.
I was about to make a comment about how it seems unfair that the soccer tournaments for this conference seem to be loaded up on the East Coast, (I believe it was Mary Wash last year), but... That's just how the rotation worked out. Next year they are in Santa Cruz.
I really don't understand how they do the seeding in the C2C... Salisbury is 4-11-2... How are they seeded #6? Can't be Massey. I wonder if a lot of these schools just decide not to participate in the tournament?
It is done by Massey. They link to the Ratings they used on the sport page on the C2C website:
if you go here: https://www.c2csports.com/sports/msoc/2022-23/standings
The click on Massey ratings, you end up here:
https://masseyratings.com/csoc2022/coast-to-coast/ratings
Wow. Thanks for that, sorry for being lazy.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 12:42:00 PM
Such a weird conference. A team from California facing off against a team from Wisconsin... In Salisbury, MD.
The Warthogs squaring off against the Banana Slugs... Fitting, I guess, that the mascots are also pretty random.
Are there warthogs in Wisconsin?
UWW is the Warhawks, not the Warthogs ... although "Warthogs" as a school nickname is certainly both more distinctive and more amusing.
Ha! That makes a lot more sense, thanks!
Going to OT down (well for me) in Salisbury.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 03, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
For those curious about the Coast-to-Coast conference, the conference tournament starts today and the first game between UC Santa Cruz and University of Wisconsin-Whitewater is 0-0 with about 35 minutes left in the second half. The conference is (presumably) the only one that seeds teams in their tournament exclusively based on Massey Rankings since the teams don't actually play conference games. It's basically a tournament conference that allows teams without local conferences to get an automatic qualifier.
What I find interesting is that the NCAA repeatedly forces teams like Trinity (TX) to travel long distances to reduce travel costs (of flying three teams to Trinity or Pac NW) but approved this conference which has created a conference tournament semifinal set-up that we would be very unlikely to see in a NCAA tournament Sectional. I'm sure this already has been discussed but not sure why CNU couldn't slot into the ODAC with UW-P going with other UWs and/or a conference more in their region..and same with Santa Cruz.
The NCAA really has nothing to do with it. The organization's hands are tied, because the C2C's members are all members in good standing of NCAA D3 and can organize themselves any way that they like. There's really no fundamental difference between the C2C and any other league in the division according to the NCAA statutes. Besides, since the NCAA isn't paying airfare and hotel bills for the C2C tourney, it's really no skin off of Indy's nose.
All of the schools you've mentioned within the C2C are state schools that have no nearby state-school conferences to rescue them from orphanhood, were there no C2C. The ODAC is all private schools, and its bylaws automatically exclude state schools. In America's Dairyland, UWEC, UWW, and UW-Platteville are all unwanted children as far as neighboring D3 soccer leagues are concerned, for a slightly different reason than CNU's. Although there is one nearby D3 conference, the UMAC, that has a mixed polity (state schools UW-Superior and UM-Morris are part of the conference), it is extremely unlikely that the UMAC would accept the three WIAC refugees for men's and women's soccer. When UW-Superior was a member of the WIAC, it was the league's all-sports doormat, dwarfed in size by its sister schools (which range from UW-River Falls at a bit under 6,000 to UW-Oshkosh at more than 15,000 -- UW-Superior has about 2,500 students) and located in the most remote corner of the state from Wisconsin's major population centers. It left the WIAC for the UMAC because it simply couldn't compete in sports with its much bigger and more felicitously-located sister campuses. And Minnesota-Morris has never really been much of a threat to dominate the UMAC in any sport, because it's so small (1,500 students) and so remote (it's in the west central Minnesota farm belt, near the South Dakota border) that it's unlikely to ever be a destination spot for student-athletes from any of Minnesota's main population centers. UWS and UMM are competitive but not dominant within the UMAC as a whole; although UWS is very good at men's soccer by UMAC standards, it doesn't come anywhere close to being what, say, Messiah is to the MAC Commonwealth. Bethany Lutheran has been very much a viable rival of UWS at the top of the UMAC men's soccer table over the past few seasons. But if you put the three WIAC exiles from a broken-up C2C into the UMAC, with their massive size, resources, locations, and strong athletics traditions, UWEC, UWW, and UW-Platteville would make mincemeat out of the rest of the UMAC on the soccer pitch, and everyone knows it. That's why it would be highly unlikely for the UMAC to invite them in as associate members for the two sports of men's and women's soccer.
UCSC is the loneliest outpost in D3, even lonelier than UMPI way up there in the northern wastes of Maine. The Banana Slugs not only have the inconvenience of being the only state school on the West Coast within D3, they're also a five-and-a-half-hour busride up the coast from the nearest SCIAC school and a ten-and-a-half-hour busride down the coast from the nearest NWC school. Ain't no way that UCSC is ever going to get invited to join either league.
As for the national tournament, the C2C's rep or reps will get slotted within the D3 tourney field within the same geographical constraints as anybody else.
If what you're proposing is that these C2C schools be allowed to play as independents during the regular season and then be folded into other schools' leagues for conference tournament purposes, I can't imagine why any league would ever agree to that. There's no upside; it's all downside. Why would you invite an outsider to come into your tournament and possibly steal your league's AQ from an actual member?
It's a long way away from being an ideal solution, but, given the exigencies of the schools involved, the C2C is really the ideal setting to handle the needs of D3 soccer's various orphans.
Salisbury with the upset over UW-Platteville in PKs 7-6. Salisbury will face CNU tomorrow in their 3rd matchup of the year. CNU won both previous games 3-0. Can sometimes be tough to beat a team 3 times in a row.
I think the other semifinal is a rematch from last year, UMW vs. UW-Whitewater. UMW prevailed in a closely contested game.
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 03, 2022, 04:51:14 PM
Salisbury with the upset over UW-Platteville in PKs 7-6. Salisbury will face CNU tomorrow in their 3rd matchup of the year. CNU won both previous games 3-0. Can sometimes be tough to beat a team 3 times in a row.
I think the other semifinal is a rematch from last year, UMW vs. UW-Whitewater. UMW prevailed in a closely contested game.
Got that backwards -- CNU will play UW-Whitewater and UMW will play Salisbury.
Now I'm just rooting for Salisbury to win out and get the AQ, but on PKs.
I wonder. what is the worst record for a team going to The Dance?
And so UW-Platteville moves on from Salisbury, MD to BDB (Big Dance Bubble).
No way MW loses to Salisbury twice in two weeks. But will keep a hat on stand-by.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 05:16:29 PM
Now I'm just rooting for Salisbury to win out and get the AQ, but on PKs.
I wonder. what is the worst record for a team going to The Dance?
How could I forget... Hopkins beat a 7-10-1 John Jay team in 2019.
(And, btw, on the topic of ties.. Middlebury had 7(!) ties that year.
ETA - And I went back a few more years and there's nothing that comes even close to what a Salisbury AQ would mean. It's really hard to think of a scenario where it could happen outside of the C2C.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 02, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2022, 04:30:21 PM
Let's see what happens this year. Last year most agreed they deserved five and they got four.
Coach, what your detailed analysis does not do is show the draws that especially the top 2-3 NESCACs get. Often the first weekend is almost a joke, and often the Sweet 16 opponent is good but manageable (or doesn't strike fear in your heart). A couple of those years Tufts could have floated to the Elite 8.
Guys I appreciate the back and forth and the challenge to the thesis, but I am not sure I agree with your criticism.
In 2019 Tufts second and third round games were 1 goal victories against perennially strong NCAA tournament program WPI and W&L before getting to Conn. In fact they were way more dominant in the final 4 with a 6-0 goal diff in two games.
In 2021 Conn had to go to PKs to advance against Salem St
This right here. No one's doubting the NESCAC quality and they deserve all their plaudits, but the eastern teams can fatten up against lesser competition due to the sheer number of schools in the area. The East Region in basketball (in the previous regional ranking system), for example, is a perennial joke.
Guys I really appreciate the back and forth as well as the challenging of the thesis but I am struggling to see what you mean about "easy" early rounds for NESCAC heavy weights.
In 2019 Tufts had an easy first game but then 1 goal victories over pretty strong programs like WPI, W&L to get to Conn in the elite 8. In fact Tufts second and thrid round games were the only 1-0 victories en route to the final 5 where they had a 6-0 goal differential with Calvin and Amherst.
In 2021 Conn College had to go to PKs to beat Salem St and then play UAA foe NYU (3-0) and take down Redlands in a 1-0 game with an 88th minute goal.
In 2021 Tufts had an easy first game but then went to PKs with Stevens (a year later undefeated and #4 team) as well as take down Centennial foe Wash College in a 1 goal game.
This was hardly "cupcake city" in terms of scheduling. It also ignores a 6-0 record against UAA and Centennial foes over 3 years....not a loss, not even a draw.
(modified by GS for formatting)
Wilmington and Ohio Northern 1-1 headed to 2nd OT. Too bad the camera doesn't move off the center line.
And Wilmington wins it....oh wait...it's not sudden death. 4:25 left in 2nd OT.
Wilmington 2 ONU 1 Final
ONU announcer is sadly closing out the season and looking ahead to next year....clueless that ONU is an almost lock for a Pool C.
Brevard College ousted USAC (I think that's right) #1 seed NC Wesleyan in double OT 2-1. Both teams are nearly 90% international and both have reserve squads with full reserve schedules.
Mr. Sager will be all over this....how does this work? Are all those players playing and that's why the colleges load up on internationals? Or some kind of special grant money? How can these colleges that are likely fighting to stay above water taking so many internationals?
Small correction to Gregory Sager's post. The WIAC has women's soccer. There are not enough WIAC schools with mens' soccer to support a men's league.
Have to say... First time I'm watching Stevens for any real stretch in their playoff game tonight.
Waiting to be impressed. And I say that having watched about 50 minutes of Messiah dismantling York. (6-1 as I type.)
I'm trying not to have a snap judgement, but... Good team. Great team?
And I'm saying on this thread because of the earlier discussion about 1-4 seeds in the tournament. I was impressed by Kenyon... They were VERY dangerous going forward and organized in the back. Stevens looks super organized in the back (so far) but they are not bossing this game like I would expect the #4 team in the nation should.
/2 cents
ETA - That convo is in the regional rankings thread, but I know we all hop around.
Those anxious about Pool C (so, almost all of us) might want to keep an eye on Otterbein @ JCU in the second OAC semi. Otterbein already up 1-0 early. Imo Otterbein has been undervalued all year.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 07:26:15 PM
Those anxious about Pool C (so, almost all of us) might want to keep an eye on Otterbein @ JCU in the second OAC semi. Otterbein already up 1-0 early. Imo Otterbein has been undervalued all year.
I think the early loss to Case Western, before Case was viewed as legit, and the cancellation without rescheduling of the Ohio Wesleyan game, combined to keep Otterbein under the radar, especially when that Centre win in the opening game didn't look so special as the season went on.
I don't know a lot about D3 soccer but I've seen the history of Messiah. I'm surprised at the under 30 roster size and love seeing all US players.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 03, 2022, 07:23:46 PM
Have to say... First time I'm watching Stevens for any real stretch in their playoff game tonight.
Waiting to be impressed. And I say that having watched about 50 minutes of Messiah dismantling York. (6-1 as I type.)
I'm trying not to have a snap judgement, but... Good team. Great team?
And I'm saying on this thread because of the earlier discussion about 1-4 seeds in the tournament. I was impressed by Kenyon... They were VERY dangerous going forward and organized in the back. Stevens looks super organized in the back (so far) but they are not bossing this game like I would expect the #4 team in the nation should.
/2 cents
ETA - That convo is in the regional rankings thread, but I know we all hop around.
They are now up 3-0 and I'm starting to get their vibe a little better. They are very relentless on the attack, kind of like gnats, but in a good way? They ping the ball around centrally and open things up with a frequency that explains all their success. It's not, like... overwhelming, but I can see how it wears the opposition down and leads to results.
And, again, they just don't give a lot of opps to the other team.
Simple Coach kind of linked them to Hopkins in terms of a deliberate style. I'd just tweak that to say they are Hopkins but with more guys that can finish.
/not quite a snap judgement at this point
JCU prevails in an extremely intense, competitive match.
Quote from: MNBob on November 03, 2022, 06:38:16 PM
Small correction to Gregory Sager's post. The WIAC has women's soccer. There are not enough WIAC schools with mens' soccer to support a men's league.
Yes. Force of habit. I have a tendency to say "men's and women's soccer" all the time because people sometimes forget that women's soccer is an NCAA sport, too. But you're right -- the WIAC does sponsor women's soccer. Men's soccer is basically a Title IX casualty in that league.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2022, 06:33:22 PM
Brevard College ousted USAC (I think that's right) #1 seed NC Wesleyan in double OT 2-1. Both teams are nearly 90% international and both have reserve squads with full reserve schedules.
Mr. Sager will be all over this....how does this work? Are all those players playing and that's why the colleges load up on internationals? Or some kind of special grant money? How can these colleges that are likely fighting to stay above water taking so many internationals?
I know nothing about Brevard. I do know that NC Wesleyan's roster has been dominated by international players for many years.
International students pay tuition and room & board, just like everybody else. Colleges that are fighting to stay above water
want international students, as a good pipeline to a another country that has plenty of young people eager to get an education in America means a steady stream of tuition income. Where that money comes from varies from country to country. Some countries subsidize their students who are attending school in the U.S., some don't. I know that Norwegians go to school here for practically nothing, since Norway is so awash in North Sea oil money that it is willing to pay for the education abroad of its young people, while their Scandinavian neighbors to the east mostly pay out of pocket or through bank loans, just like American kids, because Sweden doesn't subsidize the American-based education of college-age Swedes.
C2C Semifinals kicking off down in Salisbury:
11a - CNU vs. UW-Whitewater
2p - Mary Washington v. Salisbury
Reminder that Salisbury is a 5 win team (after PK win yesterday) and they just beat MW last week on this very field (2-1)
If anyone -- SC? -- can find video of the JCU goal with announcer reaction included please post. I've searched every way I know how, and all I can come up with is below...a mini picture-story of the goal.
https://twitter.com/jcusports/status/1588360277090701312?s=20&t=Wqe7MFmCivKAAgEN47uPlw
Blue Streaks is still one of the sillier mascots I've come across in D3 land.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2022, 11:11:38 AM
If anyone -- SC? -- can find video of the JCU goal with announcer reaction included please post. I've searched every way I know how, and all I can come up with is below...a mini picture-story of the goal.
https://twitter.com/jcusports/status/1588360277090701312?s=20&t=Wqe7MFmCivKAAgEN47uPlw
I attended this game and viewed the video highlight clip of that call early this morning... announcer's reaction was an instant classic! Unfortunately the link is no longer available for some reason nor the game itself, but if I stumble upon it later I'll try to share.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:16:53 AM
Blue Streaks is still one of the sillier mascots I've come across in D3 land.
"The 1924 season was barely underway when the sports editor of The Ignatian noted that other colleges had nicknames for their teams. John Carroll used "Fighting Irish" for a short time, but that was already University of Notre Dame's nickname.
The person generally credited with christening the team with the new name, "Blue Streak," is Raymond Gibbons '24, who followed the team on the practice field after his graduation, despite a serious illness. On one of these occasions, he reportedly remarked, "they're tearing around like a blue streak." At his death in 1925, The Carroll News referred to him as "one of the most ardent followers of Carroll's teams and since his graduation he has kept up his interest in the Blue Streak eleven that he so aptly christened, attending every game he possibly could."
Its early use was always in the singular; it became "Blue Streaks" in the 1930s."
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:07:02 AM
C2C Semifinals kicking off down in Salisbury:
11a - CNU vs. UW-Whitewater
2p - Mary Washington v. Salisbury
Reminder that Salisbury is a 5 win team (after PK win yesterday) and they just beat MW last week on this very field (2-1)
This game is pretty bonkers. CNU was up 2-0 with 12 minutes to go when Whitewater pulled one back. They then leveled with 1:40 left.
They are now in OT and CNU is up 4-2... BON.KERS.
The 3rd goal was a really bad gaffe from the keeper. Ball had to be 40 yards out and the Captain player mis-hit service on a direct kick and it floated right over the keeper. Dagger.
They then scored less than a minute later on a header off a CK... 4-2... C2C Action... It's FANtastic.
Quote from: southsidejet on November 04, 2022, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:16:53 AM
Blue Streaks is still one of the sillier mascots I've come across in D3 land.
"The 1924 season was barely underway when the sports editor of The Ignatian noted that other colleges had nicknames for their teams. John Carroll used "Fighting Irish" for a short time, but that was already University of Notre Dame's nickname.
The person generally credited with christening the team with the new name, "Blue Streak," is Raymond Gibbons '24, who followed the team on the practice field after his graduation, despite a serious illness. On one of these occasions, he reportedly remarked, "they're tearing around like a blue streak." At his death in 1925, The Carroll News referred to him as "one of the most ardent followers of Carroll's teams and since his graduation he has kept up his interest in the Blue Streak eleven that he so aptly christened, attending every game he possibly could."
Its early use was always in the singular; it became "Blue Streaks" in the 1930s."
It sounds like a Smurf with bowel problems.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:16:53 AM
Blue Streaks is still one of the sillier mascots I've come across in D3 land.
I know a JCU grad who refers to JCU's archrival Baldwin Wallace as "the Brown Streaks". :D
It's interesting how we all have different associations and thoughts triggered by various things.
I've always thought Blue Streaks was a really cool name....and now I will forever also think of GI distress.
We all go to some interesting places at tourney time.
I mean, I'm being a jerk because they beat "my" team last year. :D
It's a perfectly fine mascot.
I mean, what the heck is a Green Terror? (And I like to rename them the Night Terrors for no particular reason.)
And that's a wrap for Sewanee....very nice season, though. Birm-So marches on.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 11:07:02 AM
C2C Semifinals kicking off down in Salisbury:
11a - CNU vs. UW-Whitewater
2p - Mary Washington v. Salisbury
Reminder that Salisbury is a 5 win team (after PK win yesterday) and they just beat MW last week on this very field (2-1)
I want to be charitable, as I'm increasingly aware that there are a lot of lurkers out there. The 2 separate announcing crews at the C2C semis... Um... Bless their hearts?
Wow. MW has a player sent off for DOGSO.
Chaos Alert!!! Deep in the first half, all tied at 0-0... The really interesting thing about the card... I think the Salisbury player was going to be called offsides. The way the linesmen are instructed to keep their flag down probably allowed that situation to play out, as opposed to just calling him offside right away.
Mary Washington red card on a Salisbury player that was coming back from an offsides position? Controversy haha
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 04, 2022, 03:05:44 PM
Mary Washington red card on a Salisbury player that was coming back from an offsides position? Controversy haha
Yep. Did you see what I saw? Dude was clearly like 4 yards offside, came back into an onside position but the ball had already been played.
Yeah, I don't know why the ref didn't at least talk to his linesman. Seemed like an obvious offsides to me. Salisbury was getting shellacked before that happened too lol
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 04, 2022, 03:09:46 PM
Yeah, I don't know why the ref didn't at least talk to his linesman. Seemed like an obvious offsides to me. Salisbury was getting shellacked before that happened too lol
Yep. And it happened right in line with the MW bench... Coach must be livid.
Confused....what was red card for?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2022, 03:16:13 PM
Confused....what was red card for?
The offsides guy was taken down on a breakaway about 25-30 yards from goal. If it wasn't for the offsides and was just a breakaway, it was a textbook denial of goal scoring opportunity.
But, in the old days, the flag would've been up long before the trip. As it stands, the AR was letting the situation play out OR more likely he just missed that the guy was offsides.
It was pretty blatantly offsides. Maybe a 2 man high school reffing crew could miss that, but, c'mon AR has really one job and he blew it there.
https://streamable.com/z2orc1 (https://streamable.com/z2orc1)
Nice work, paclassic!
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 04, 2022, 03:23:01 PM
https://streamable.com/z2orc1 (https://streamable.com/z2orc1)
And looking at it again, that's a pretty debatable DoGSO. The other defender was closing him down.
OK, thanks to both of you.
MW needs to win this game. If they don't the resume will be basically indistinguishable from Hamilton and several others.
I can't believe the defender was sent off, it's just astounding, assuming that I have viewed the film right and the player was definitely coming back from an offside position. If it had been my team I might have had to be escorted away from the stadium, it's so clearly wrong it's not funny. I am not sure if the assistant referee actually saw the offside, in games without VAR it's not like they are going to review it anyway. Even in games where there is a review it doesn't make sense to me.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 04, 2022, 03:42:36 PM
I can't believe the defender was sent off, it's just astounding, assuming that I have viewed the film right and the player was definitely coming back from an offside position. If it had been my team I might have had to be escorted away from the stadium, it's so clearly wrong it's not funny. I am not sure if the assistant referee actually saw the offside, in games without VAR it's not like they are going to review it anyway. Even in games where there is a review it doesn't make sense to me.
And imagine, whether true or not, losing a NCAA bid because of that call/non-call and thinking about that for the next eight or nine months.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 04, 2022, 03:42:36 PM
I can't believe the defender was sent off, it's just astounding, assuming that I have viewed the film right and the player was definitely coming back from an offside position. If it had been my team I might have had to be escorted away from the stadium, it's so clearly wrong it's not funny. I am not sure if the assistant referee actually saw the offside, in games without VAR it's not like they are going to review it anyway. Even in games where there is a review it doesn't make sense to me.
It's a stunningly bad decision.
Meanwhile, Salisbury player trucks a MW guy in the box and they bury the PK. Couldn't have been better timing for MW, because the longer they have to play down a man, the harder it was going to be to try and get a game winner. Still 30 minutes left.
I don't know if I'd call the game chippy, but there have been some real clashes from both sides.
Yeah, ref is letting way too much go. Would not be surprised to see another PK here.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 04, 2022, 03:26:17 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 04, 2022, 03:23:01 PM
https://streamable.com/z2orc1 (https://streamable.com/z2orc1)
And looking at it again, that's a pretty debatable DoGSO. The other defender was closing him down.
Definitely soft and a dive possibly (dark arts). Problem was thàt the center ref was trailing so far behind and probtcould gauge the other back coming on. Sad call. Yellow but not straight red.
And Salisbury with a red. I can't tell if that was his second yellow or this guy in the center doesn't understand DoGSO.
The Salisbury keeper has made a handful of remarkable saves. His best just now off a possible own goal... great reaction save.
The ref looks like he figured out he screwed up during halftime...and now he's doing make-up calls and non-calls...just lost his way on this one.
Boo.
Mary Washington hates fun. Fun burglars!
1-0 EOM
If a player has accumulated 4 yellows and gets a 5th in the league championship, am I remembering the rules correctly in that they don't have to serve a suspension since the threshold for a suspension is increased to 8 yellows in the NCAA tournament?
Once postseason begins, which includes the conference tournaments, it takes 8 total yellows to earn a suspension.
What are thoughts around the nation about the rule changes with regards to no OT during regular season? What about no Golden Goal in the post-season?
So far, I'm not a fan. I feel like not having Golden Goal penalizes the team that scores (who IMHO should be the winner) and if that team goes on to win, it is going to tire them out and possibly lead to more injuries.
Thoughts?
Have there been any glaring/egregious impacts so far in conference tournaments?
I definitely don't like the no golden goal. Now teams are forced to play an extra 20 minutes no matter what. Felt a bit bad today for RIT against SLU. RIT had an OT win against RPI midweek off a goal at the start of the 2nd OT. And extra 10 minutes makes a huge difference at this stage in the season, and they were noticeably fatigued today in the 2nd half against SLU.
Today's weather is going to wreak some havoc in Chicagoland games. Wind advisory until 7 PM, 25-30 MPH constant with gusts up to 60 MPH. Wind-blown goals incoming.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 05, 2022, 09:54:01 AM
Today's weather is going to wreak some havoc in Chicagoland games. Wind advisory until 7 PM, 25-30 MPH constant with gusts up to 60 MPH. Wind-blown goals incoming.
Sounds like the the Trinity (TX) 4-3 victory over Colorado College last night in Sherman, Texas in a game delayed multiple times because of tornado warnings and high winds.
I am going to accept that I've lost the battle of no golden goal ruining OT and the college game in general, but I will push back one final time on the idea that it's a total either/or on whether OT is exciting or not.
First, I doubt there are many fans when their teams goes down a goal in OT who are unhappy that their team still has a chance.
More to the point, though, it's still pretty exciting when a team goes up a goal in OT after all that time deadlocked. There's some excitement in seeing if your team can respond and level. And there's definitely excitement for either team if once leveled again one of the two teams scores again, and so on. The same specter of PKs of course also lurks during the OTs. So, imho, maybe not heart-stopping excitement, but still opportunities for a lot of excitement.
As for the fatigue factor I'm not that sympathetic. You have to be prepared to go 110...and certainly all of those insisting that the regular season should still have overtime shouldn't reject the fatigue/injury argument in that instance but then invoke the same for the post-season.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2022, 10:23:16 AM
I am going to accept that I've lost the battle of no golden goal ruining OT and the college game in general, but I will push back one final time on the idea that it's a total either/or on whether OT is exciting or not.
First, I doubt there are many fans when their teams goes down a goal in OT who are unhappy that their team still has a chance.
More to the point, though, it's still pretty exciting when a team goes up a goal in OT after all that time deadlocked. There's some excitement in seeing if your team can respond and level. And there's definitely excitement for either team if once leveled again one of the two teams scores again, and so on. The same specter of PKs of course also lurks during the OTs. So, imho, maybe not heart-stopping excitement, but still opportunities for a lot of excitement.
As for the fatigue factor I'm not that sympathetic. You have to be prepared to go 110...and certainly all of those insisting that the regular season should still have overtime shouldn't reject the fatigue/injury argument in that instance but then invoke the same for the post-season.
I see your points and can concede some of it. I guess I'm thinking more of the long-term effects of the fatigue the further you go in the tournament as opposed to the short term in that specific game. It didn't happen yesterday; but, it would have really made the point in the CNU vs UWW game. If CNU goes up 4-2 in OT and a player gets injured bc of a UWW foul. I know we can't play the What-If game for every scenario; but, in my mind there are too many downsides to justify the upside.
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 05, 2022, 10:47:55 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2022, 10:23:16 AM
I am going to accept that I've lost the battle of no golden goal ruining OT and the college game in general, but I will push back one final time on the idea that it's a total either/or on whether OT is exciting or not.
First, I doubt there are many fans when their teams goes down a goal in OT who are unhappy that their team still has a chance.
More to the point, though, it's still pretty exciting when a team goes up a goal in OT after all that time deadlocked. There's some excitement in seeing if your team can respond and level. And there's definitely excitement for either team if once leveled again one of the two teams scores again, and so on. The same specter of PKs of course also lurks during the OTs. So, imho, maybe not heart-stopping excitement, but still opportunities for a lot of excitement.
As for the fatigue factor I'm not that sympathetic. You have to be prepared to go 110...and certainly all of those insisting that the regular season should still have overtime shouldn't reject the fatigue/injury argument in that instance but then invoke the same for the post-season.
I see your points and can concede some of it. I guess I'm thinking more of the long-term effects of the fatigue the further you go in the tournament as opposed to the short term in that specific game. It didn't happen yesterday; but, it would have really made the point in the CNU vs UWW game. If CNU goes up 4-2 in OT and a player gets injured bc of a UWW foul. I know we can't play the What-If game for every scenario; but, in my mind there are too many downsides to justify the upside.
And if your star player tears an ACL in the 2nd OT of a regular season game? I don't think I've ever heard the argument before that sudden death OT is worth the injury risk but not playing out two OTs (which of course happened frequently before resulting in PKs). If you're a CNU fan and UWW goes up 3-2 in OT are you not happy that CNU still has a shot, or are you suddenly worried about injury risks and impact on a tournament run for UWW?
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2022, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 05, 2022, 10:47:55 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2022, 10:23:16 AM
I am going to accept that I've lost the battle of no golden goal ruining OT and the college game in general, but I will push back one final time on the idea that it's a total either/or on whether OT is exciting or not.
First, I doubt there are many fans when their teams goes down a goal in OT who are unhappy that their team still has a chance.
More to the point, though, it's still pretty exciting when a team goes up a goal in OT after all that time deadlocked. There's some excitement in seeing if your team can respond and level. And there's definitely excitement for either team if once leveled again one of the two teams scores again, and so on. The same specter of PKs of course also lurks during the OTs. So, imho, maybe not heart-stopping excitement, but still opportunities for a lot of excitement.
As for the fatigue factor I'm not that sympathetic. You have to be prepared to go 110...and certainly all of those insisting that the regular season should still have overtime shouldn't reject the fatigue/injury argument in that instance but then invoke the same for the post-season.
I see your points and can concede some of it. I guess I'm thinking more of the long-term effects of the fatigue the further you go in the tournament as opposed to the short term in that specific game. It didn't happen yesterday; but, it would have really made the point in the CNU vs UWW game. If CNU goes up 4-2 in OT and a player gets injured bc of a UWW foul. I know we can't play the What-If game for every scenario; but, in my mind there are too many downsides to justify the upside.
And if your star player tears an ACL in the 2nd OT of a regular season game? I don't think I've ever heard the argument before that sudden death OT is worth the injury risk but not playing out two OTs (which of course happened frequently before resulting in PKs). If you're a CNU fan and UWW goes up 3-2 in OT are you not happy that CNU still has a shot, or are you suddenly worried about injury risks and impact on a tournament run for UWW?
Fair point and yes, I agree it should be the same in regular season as post-season. I also know every coach, player and fan will support it when it suits them and rail against it when it doesn't. Maybe I just don't like change and need some therapy to address it haha.
I'm not well versed in all the sports; but, to my knowledge don't almost all of them end in sudden death OT (except for basketball)?
Ohio Wesleyan with the upset! 2-1 over Kenyon
Baseball's extra innings are sudden death only for the home team. And REAL baseball doesn't give you a free runner on 2B to start an extra inning.
OK, well I might as well take my medicine like a big boy.
Very disappointing as not being able to beat your dreaded arch-rival in a conference final on your home pitch does not bode well for having what it takes to win a national title. I'm sure the players and coaches are far more disappointed than I am.
A few thoughts. The team and coaches showed their nerves with coach picking up a yellow and a player on the bench getting one inside of the first 10 minutes. Then because they ticked off the ref they did not catch any breaks for at least the first 20-25 minutes. They seemed to settle down and got the goal they needed before the half ended. Then a very smart play I'm sure designed by Martin to try to score off the 2nd half kickoff as there were heavy winds and OWU had defended against the wind the first half. Kenyon GK Pedreschi caught off guard and had to push the ball over the bar directly off the kickoff, giving up a corner...then the corner, headed around and lands at feet of OWU player who buries. So game leveled in the first 20 seconds of 2nd half. Just amazing and so unnecessary. Predreschi has been really, really good but you could tell he was beside himself after the game. He got caught out and got chipped last year by Denison. Details can decide these games. I'm not even sure how OWU got the 2nd one mostly against the run of play but they did as their little star freshmen scored and went berserk. Kenyon had 25 minutes to equalize and almost did a number of times, and even appeared to score a couple of times but the OWU GK made a couple of phenomenal saves. Alas, I knew there was a very good chance OWU would win this game and they did.
Credit to OWU. They got their bid and they won't be easy to knock out. Martin really is good in a one game situation, much like Souders at Calvin. He put together a very non-OWU-style game plan and walked away with the NCAC crown and their first win against Kenyon since I was last at that field in 2014. You could tell from his comment after the Denison that he thought they had a very good chance.
There is no positive side for me, but trying to look on the positive side, Kenyon has a chance to regroup and refocus. They need to figure out how to give maximum effort from start to finish while also showing more poise. They MUST show more poise, and it's up to that 5th year senior group to get everyone in the right frame of mind and to immediately let go of calls that don't go their way.
W&L beats Roanoke on an 89th minute goal to win the ODAC. W&L had a goal around the 20th minute waived off for offside, camera angle was a no go but the geometry of that play being offside hurts my head. Missed most of the match doing chores, but happy W&L got the championship they missed out on last year.
I actually underestimated how insanely windy it would be today in UChicago vs. WashU. Watching every aerial ball get beaten down by non-stop gusts was quite the experience. Haven't seen wind like that at a game since 2016 when the Maroons lost a 3rd round game due to a misplayed punt into the wind. And it got even worse for the women's game afterwards. Kudos to the players for gutting it out in terrible conditions.
UChicago scored late after a miscue by the WashU GK at the edge of the box, challenging a ball he probably shouldn't have. The Maroons were in control the whole way despite not having much offense to show for it, the Bears were keeping 5 defenders back to stifle things. But a win is a win, especially over your top rival, and it gave the Maroons the sole UAA title.
And as I accurately predicted, Case handled CMU as well. The Spartans will be a tough out in the NCAAs.
Quote from: jknezek on November 05, 2022, 05:01:23 PM
W&L beats Roanoke on an 89th minute goal to win the ODAC. W&L had a goal around the 20th minute waived off for offside, camera angle was a no go but the geometry of that play being offside hurts my head. Missed most of the match doing chores, but happy W&L got the championship they missed out on last year.
It was a naibiter! Agbeyegbe's goal was pretty darn world class.
West Conn in OT battling for their lives against UMass-Boston.
Anybody know what the selection show schedule will be?
1:30 eastern on Monday for men's. Women's after, but not sure of the time.
If you're not listening to the West Conn broadcast you are missing something....see Elvis if you stare at the lights, jalapenos, pepperoni, etc
I am not convinced the guy doing commentary for the WestConn-UMB final is not Rush Limbaugh.
Is WestConn going to be first ever 20 win team to not make the tournament? Their bubble has been stretched to the max after today.
Oh my gosh....20-0-2.
Now let's see how many insist that West Conn should get in the tournament.
Quote from: stlawus on November 05, 2022, 07:08:05 PM
I am not convinced the guy doing commentary for the WestConn-UMB final is not Rush Limbaugh.
Is WestConn going to be first ever 20 win team to not make the tournament? Their bubble has been stretched to the max after today.
Are they more deserving than Skid, Vassar (who they beat), Hamilton, Williams, etc?
Pn,
I haven't seen to this point that anyone has put them in the conversation to be included in the tournament. I may have missed something but Imho they have no shot without the auto bid. Not a chance. They will come up to the table in round 75. Now that's being facetious. Knowing you I'm pretty sure your being facetious as well.
Wow, I guess facetious may have been the wrong word. Imho there is no way they have a chance. They won't jump anyone in region 1. It was get the aq or bust. Other than winning percentage, NOTHING works in their favor.
"Top shelf where grandma keeps the good scotch...."
One Pool C saved....
Wow. Who won the day from a national tournament bracketing perspective? Imho it has to be Chicago. Not only did they win the UAA conference championship, but three of the regionally ranked non conference teams they beat during the season also won their respective conference AQs. Calvin beat Hope, St Olaf beat GAC and Luther just beat Loras.
But, if I'm Chicago I don't want to see any of them in tournament. IMO, Chicago may get away from all three on the first weekend, but beyond that it's up for grabs.
C2C Final -- UMW scores with 17 seconds left to take a 1-0 lead. Then CNU scores with no time left on the clock to force overtime. I've never seen anything like it.
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 06, 2022, 12:05:53 PM
C2C Final -- UMW scores with 17 seconds left to take a 1-0 lead. Then CNU scores with no time left on the clock to force overtime. I've never seen anything like it.
Brutal. Amazing.
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 06, 2022, 12:05:53 PM
C2C Final -- UMW scores with 17 seconds left to take a 1-0 lead. Then CNU scores with no time left on the clock to force overtime. I've never seen anything like it.
Mary Washington wins in PKs. I expect Christopher Newport is taking one of the Pool C bids
Quote from: Chargers96 on November 06, 2022, 12:05:53 PM
C2C Final -- UMW scores with 17 seconds left to take a 1-0 lead. Then CNU scores with no time left on the clock to force overtime. I've never seen anything like it.
Mary Washington wins in PKs 6-5. Is a Pool C now gone with CNU missing out on the AQ?
Yep, CNU is a pool C lock
Lost internet access for a bit so missed it but happy for MW GK after way regulation ended. He would have had nightmares forever.
And yes, CNU a lock.
But whoever lost was probably going to get a Pool C at-large berth, so it doesn't really change anything for Pool C candidates who are nervous about their status.
I know the selection show. is tomorrow; but, I love looking this stuff up and trying to figure out who will be where.
Men's Conference Champions (AQ's) - Pool A - 43 Berths
AMCC (T) Mount Aloysius
ARC (R) Loras
ASC (T) Mary Hardin-Baylor
AEC (T) Marymount
Centennial (T) Muhlenberg
CUNYAC (T) Lehman
C2C (T) Mary Washington
CCIW (R) North Central (Ill.)
CCS (R) LaGrange
CSAC (T) Rosemont
CCC (R) Endicott - Region II
MAC-C (T) Messiah
Empire 8 (T) Nazareth
Freedom (T) Stevens - Region IV
GNAC (T) St. Joseph (Conn.)
HCAC (R) Rose-Hulman
Landmark (T) Scranton
Liberty (T) St. Lawrence - Region III
LEC (T) Mass-Boston
MASCAC (T) Worcester State
MIAA (R) Calvin
MWC (R) Lake Forest
MIAC (R) Gustavus Adolphus
NEWMAC (T) Babson - Region II
NECC (T) New England College
NESCAC (T) Amherst - Region I
NJAC (T) Rowan - Region IV
NAC (T) Husson
NCAC (R) Kenyon
NACC (R) Concordia (Wis.) / Aurora / MSOE
NWC (R) Willamette
OAC (R) Ohio Northern
ODAC (T) Washington and Lee
Presidents' (T) Franciscan
Skyline (T) Merchant Marine
SAA (T) Birmingham-Southern
SCIAC (R) Chapman
SCAC (T) St. Thomas (Texas)
SLIAC (R) Webster
SUNYAC (T) Oneonta State - Region III
UEC (R) St. Mary's (Md.)
UAA (R) Chicago
UMAC (R) UW-Superior
USA South (T) Brevard
There were a lot of upsets in the conference tournaments. I've pulled all the #1 seed teams that didn't win an AQ for their conference.
Who do we think will get a Pool C - 20 Berths
#19 Hopkins - 12-1-7
#12 Christopher Newport - 12-3-2
Loras - 10-6-2
#7 F&M - 12-2-4
Baruch - 10-6
LaGrange - 11-5-2
#23 Endicott - 12-5-4
St. John Fisher - 7-5-4
St. Joseph (Maine) - 13-5-1
Catholic - 11-3-4
#21 Western Connecticut - 20-0-2
Framingham State - 11-5-3
#5 Gustavus Adolphus - 14-1-4
Eastern Nazarene - 7-7-5
#8 Bowdoin - 11-1-4
#9 Montclair State - 15-2-4
#11 Ohio Northern - 13-3-3
Lynchburg - 11-2-5
Grove City - 12-5-1
Manhattanville - 9-5-4
Rhodes - 9-2-6
Webster 14-3-3
#14 Cortland State - 12-5-2
St. Mary's MD - 11-4-5
These aren't necessarily the ones I think will get a Pool C bid. I'll post my guesses seperately
So, I didn't know SC and PN were recording an episode and posting it right after I wrote my post
Just go here and watch this
Another episode with @PaulNewman
The New Show. Jump In - The Water is Fine.
https://youtu.be/3yucemfEftI
Quote from: jdfranklin23 on November 06, 2022, 06:52:55 PM
I know the selection show. is tomorrow; but, I love looking this stuff up and trying to figure out who will be where.
Men's Conference Champions (AQ's) - Pool A - 43 Berths
AMCC (T) Mount Aloysius
ARC (R) Loras
ASC (T) Mary Hardin-Baylor
AEC (T) Marymount
Centennial (T) Muhlenberg
CUNYAC (T) Lehman
C2C (T) Mary Washington
CCIW (R) North Central (Ill.)
CCS (R) LaGrange
CSAC (T) Rosemont
CCC (R) Endicott - Region II
MAC-C (T) Messiah
Empire 8 (T) Nazareth
Freedom (T) Stevens - Region IV
GNAC (T) St. Joseph (Conn.)
HCAC (R) Rose-Hulman
Landmark (T) Scranton
Liberty (T) St. Lawrence - Region III
LEC (T) Mass-Boston
MASCAC (T) Worcester State
MIAA (R) Calvin
MWC (R) Lake Forest
MIAC (R) Gustavus Adolphus
NEWMAC (T) Babson - Region II
NECC (T) New England College
NESCAC (T) Amherst - Region I
NJAC (T) Rowan - Region IV
NAC (T) Husson
NCAC (R) Kenyon
NACC (R) Concordia (Wis.) / Aurora / MSOE
NWC (R) Willamette
OAC (R) Ohio Northern
ODAC (T) Washington and Lee
Presidents' (T) Franciscan
Skyline (T) Merchant Marine
SAA (T) Birmingham-Southern
SCIAC (R) Chapman
SCAC (T) St. Thomas (Texas)
SLIAC (R) Webster
SUNYAC (T) Oneonta State - Region III
UEC (R) St. Mary's (Md.)
UAA (R) Chicago
UMAC (R) UW-Superior
USA South (T) Brevard
There were a lot of upsets in the conference tournaments. I've pulled all the #1 seed teams that didn't win an AQ for their conference.
Who do we think will get a Pool C - 20 Berths
#19 Hopkins - 12-1-7
#12 Christopher Newport - 12-3-2
Loras - 10-6-2
#7 F&M - 12-2-4
Baruch - 10-6
LaGrange - 11-5-2
#23 Endicott - 12-5-4
St. John Fisher - 7-5-4
St. Joseph (Maine) - 13-5-1
Catholic - 11-3-4
#21 Western Connecticut - 20-0-2
Framingham State - 11-5-3
#5 Gustavus Adolphus - 14-1-4
Eastern Nazarene - 7-7-5
#8 Bowdoin - 11-1-4
#9 Montclair State - 15-2-4
#11 Ohio Northern - 13-3-3
Lynchburg - 11-2-5
Grove City - 12-5-1
Manhattanville - 9-5-4
Rhodes - 9-2-6
Webster 14-3-3
#14 Cortland State - 12-5-2
St. Mary's MD - 11-4-5
These aren't necessarily the ones I think will get a Pool C bid. I'll post my guesses seperately
You left out Middlebury, which entered the weekend as 2nd in their region, behind Pool A Amherst. Bowdoin was behind them at 3. Followed by Tufts, Williams, Hamilton, and then Western Conn. Western Conn has no shot. They'd have to jump those teams in the regional rankings, and they won't do so by losing. Unless the NESCAC gets 5 Pool Cs to go with Amherst, bringing Western Conn to the table.
It was technically a tie for Western Connecticut but your point still stands
Medaille also won the E8 not Naz.
Quote from: stlawus on November 06, 2022, 09:11:46 PM
Medaille also won the E8 not Naz.
This is what I get for being lazy and copying n pasting from other sources ;D
Bucket, in all seriousness, did you really scan that list and the only thing you noticed was Middlebury missing? Didn't notice North Park, Kenyon, Tufts, Case Western, NYU, etc missing OR wonder what Baruch, Eastern Naz, LaGrange, St John Fisher, Grove City, and Framingham St were doing in a list of Pool C candidates?
MAF Pool B & C Predictions
Pool B
1. UW-Eau Claire
Pool C
1. Kenyon
2. Hopkins
3. Gustavus Adolphus
4. CNU
5. Middlebury
6. ONU
7. Cortland
8. North Park
9. Montclair
10. Bowdoin
11. Case Western
12. Williams
13. NYU
14. Tufts
15. Lynchburg
16. UW-Platteville
17. F&M
18. Pacific Lutheran
19. CMU
20. Vassar
Sleepers (no order)
Hamilton
Western Conn
Endicott
Skidmore
Lycoming
Catholic
Drew
MSOE
Wartburg
Southwestern
Paul Newman's Own Pool C Predictions
Locks to highly likely (alphabetical) = 13
BOWDOIN
CHRISTOPHER NEWPORT
CWRU
CORTLAND ST
F&M
GAC
JOHNS HOPKINS
KENYON
MIDDLEBURY
MONTCLAIR ST
NORTH PARK
NYU
OHIO NORTHERN
Moderate confidence = 4
CATHOLIC
PAC LUTHERAN
TUFTS
WILLIAMS
Best guess = 3
UW-PLATTEVILLE
LYNCHBURG
VASSAR
WILD CARD PICKS =3
BROCKPORT ST
CARNEGIE MELLON
WESTERN CONNECTICUT
Pool C RPI Rankings Top 35
Christopher Newport .6379
Kenyon .6355
Gustavus Adolphus .6337
New York University .628
Franklin and Marshall .6267
Middlebury .6248
Case Western Reserve .6247
Ohio Northern .6227
Johns Hopkins .6208
Bowdoin .6192
Western Connecticut .6167
Drew .6117
North Park .6104
Carnegie Mellon .6075
Catholic .6066
Vassar .6063
Cortland State .6052
Lynchburg .6003
Montclair State .6001
Tufts .599
Williams .5967
UW-Platteville .5964
Johnson and Wales .5954
Hamilton .5954
Lycoming .5915
Pacific Lutheran .5882
Connecticut College .5881
Virginia Wesleyan .5867
Brockport State .5852
New Paltz State .5845
Skidmore .5816
MSOE .5799
Otterbein .5796
WPI .5785
Rochester .5772
Updated including games played today. Winning % and SoS. Another perspective on how the past week changed things. Add in RvR on your own and obviously some names at the bottom of the list are not close to the bubble.
Interesting that Western Connecticut is hanging in there towards the top. Drew still up there. 6 NESCACS in the top 30 by RPI
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2022, 09:48:15 PM
Bucket, in all seriousness, did you really scan that list and the only thing you noticed was Middlebury missing? Didn't notice North Park, Kenyon, Tufts, Case Western, NYU, etc missing OR wonder what Baruch, Eastern Naz, LaGrange, St John Fisher, Grove City, and Framingham St were doing in a list of Pool C candidates?
jdfranklin23's list was of all the conference #1 seeds who didn't win their tournament and AQ, not a comprehensive list of Pool C candidates. Probably not the most relevant list to be considering at this point, but he didn't say it was.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2022, 10:22:39 PM
WILD CARD PICKS =3
BROCKPORT ST
Props for identifying Brockport State as an unranked team last week that could get to the table for a Pool C berth. It will be interesting to see the final Region III rankings and see where the committee places them. It'll be close between Vassar, Skidmore and Brockport.
Vassar 9-3-5 (.676) .594 SOS 1-3-4 (.375) RvR
Skidmore 9-4-6 (.632) .568 SOS 1-3-5 (.389) RvR
Brockport St 9-3-7 (.658) .562 SOS 2-2-1 (.500) RvR
I originally thought Skidmore would be well positioned for selection, but I was forgetting two things that dent their resume. (1) They only tied Vassar (adv. on PK's) in the Liberty semifinals. (2) They lose a RvR win against Clarkson who dropped from the rankings from Week 2 to Week 3. So instead of 2 or 3 RvR wins, they will have just 1.
Normally I would think that Vassar's 5 wins/ties vs. ranked and Skidmore's 6 wins/ties versus ranked and having played more ranked teams would edge Brockport's fewer games against raked teams and 3 wins/ties. But not only will Brockport have 2 RvR wins compared to just one for Vassar and Skidmore, Brockport's two wins came against Region III leaders Oneonta and Cortland to go with their tie against Oneonta in the Liberty final. Vassar's and Skidmore's RvR wins are against New Paltz and Hobart, respectively, which is much less impressive. (Hobart probably isn't ranked this week to make room for Brockport, but the win against them will still count since they were ranked last week.)
I wouldn't be surprised to see two of these three teams selected, but three feels like too many. With Vassar's significantly higher SOS and having been #3 in the region last week, I'm not sure Brockport can come from outside to overtake them, but I think you could make a case for it. It's not often than a team outside the rankings has a legitimate shot to get selected, but I think you found a case in Brockport.
And maybe we will see more cases like this now that they have capped the regional rankings at 7 teams. Of course, most regions were only having 7 or 8 teams ranked prior to the 7-team cap, so maybe not. It's probably as much a question of whether (a) the level of inconsistency and/or parity we saw this year repeats and (b) does the increase in ties due no regular season OT leave teams more bunched than would have been the case otherwise.
Without doing any deep dive beside what I did above looking at Brockport's chances and mainly just trusting that the Regional Rankings do a good job foreshadowing the selections, here's my quick predictions/guesses.
POOL B - Wisconsin-Eau Claire (no other options, really, but still well deserved)
POOL C
REGION I
1. Middlebury
2. Bowdoin
3. Tufts
4. Williams
REGION II
--
REGION III
5. Cortland St.
6. Vassar
REGION IV
7. Montclair St.
8. NYU
REGION V
9. Johns Hopkins
10. Franklin and Marshall
REGION VI
11. Christopher Newport
REGION VII
12. Kenyon
13. Ohio Northern
14. Case Western
15. Carnegie Mellon
REGION VIII
16. North Park
REGION IX
17. Gustavus Adolphus
18. UW-Platteville
REGION X
--
final two Pool C berth options:
Brockport - impressive wins over Oneonta and Cortland and tie with Oneonta
Catholic - SOS is high among teams on the bubble, but no signature win or tie
Lynchburg - depends on how much credit they're given for the two RvR ties being against Messiah and W&L
Pacific Lutheran - depends on what grace the committee has for the difficulty of building a strong SOS on the west coast (and the X-factor of needing a team to round out a pod out west)
Wartburg - the numbers put them on the bubble and since I think UW-Platteville is safely in, they will come to the table
Skidmore - only if they stay ahead of Brockport in Region III
Not including Western Connecticut because I can't see what would have happened in the past week to move them ahead of Hamilton if the committee saw Hamilton as being ahead of them a week ago.
FW, I'll meet you halfway on jdfranklin23 lol...
This is how the post started...
I know the selection show. is tomorrow; but, I love looking this stuff up and trying to figure out who will be where.
Then, immediately before the list you're talking about...
There were a lot of upsets in the conference tournaments. I've pulled all the #1 seed teams that didn't win an AQ for their conference.
Who do we think will get a Pool C - 20 Berths[/b]
Then immediately after the list...
These aren't necessarily the ones I think will get a Pool C bid. I'll post my guesses seperately
That is a lot of talking about and framing with selections coming and Pool C to not really be talking about selections and Pool C. And then the minor issue that the list itself is inaccurate even if there if there is no intended relevance for Pool C.
FW, curious to hear your thought process on CMU...
My question (or one of them) is whether the cmte will go that deep in Region VII...
That said, I would expect them to get to the table given who will be in front of them and taken, and I suppose by that time CMU's winning pct and SoS may stand out better and just having one ranked win won't keep them out because by that time few teams left on the board will have more than one ranked win or if they have two will fall very short compared to CMU on the other two measures.
There may be some hidden bias coming through based on a notion that CWRU and CMU were playing a play-in game on Saturday.
Lynchburg is tough...could definitely see them missing out again which would be brutal to have that kind of resume and be left off two years in a row.
On Western CT, if the cmte stares long enough at them, I could see sentiment to push them ahead of Hamilton. Western CT, via a win and a draw, DID add a bit to their total record, while Hamilton of course was idle. I don't think there is a high likelihood of this happening, but I think there is at least some daylight that the cmte could make that move if really wanted to. As I noted elsewhere, Western CT might had have a very good chance if they were in Region II instead of I.
And I agree that Wartburg looks very, very similar to a few others so would not be surprised by them getting a bid although I wonder when the last time was that Region IX (old NORTH) got 3 Pool Cs. Btw, for whatever reason, Wartburg didn't make paclassic's RPI list, so I don't know if that has not any relevance in terms of what that taps for that the cmte might actually consider.
I agree that the list of #1 seeds that didn't go on and capture their conference's AQ isn't particularly relevant for the Pool C selection discussion, as I stated in my post. And I get that it was easy to take the list as being contenders for Pool C berth selection given the context. And that's why I just wanted to point out what his list actually was, because people were responding to it as if it was something different from what he stated it to be.
As to the inaccuracy, besides the Empire 8 champion/AQ, what else was inaccurate? And that was clearly a mistake on the part of D3soccer.com, not jdfranklin23, as it was cut-and-pasted from the website.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2022, 07:52:10 AM
I agree that the list of #1 seeds that didn't go on and capture their conference's AQ isn't particularly relevant for the Pool C selection discussion, as I stated in my post. And I get that it was easy to take the list as being contenders for Pool C berth selection given the context. And that's why I just wanted to point out what his list actually was, because people were responding to it as if it was something different from what he stated it to be.
As to the inaccuracy, besides the Empire 8 champion/AQ, what else was inaccurate? And that was clearly a mistake on the part of D3soccer.com, not jdfranklin23, as it was cut-and-pasted from the website.
Yeah, I don't know how one could conclude that he wasn't putting out a list of potential Pool C candidates when the list is wrapped around "let's dig in to what is gonna happen with Pool C." So if that isn't intended as some kind of aid for determining Pool Cs what was the purpose of the whole post? Pretty hard not to get confused when the immediate lead-in to the list is.... "Who do we think will get a Pool C -- 20 berths."
As for inaccuracy, I don't want to be hypocritical after my question to Bucket....
Back to above, I think partly what happened was confusion between conference champions and conference AQs.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 07:49:03 AM
FW, curious to hear your thought process on CMU...
My question (or one of them) is whether the cmte will go that deep in Region VII...
That said, I would expect them to get to the table given who will be in front of them and taken, and I suppose by that time CMU's winning pct and SoS may stand out better and just having one ranked win won't keep them out because by that time few teams left on the board will have more than one ranked win or if they have two will fall very short compared to CMU on the other two measures.
There may be some hidden bias coming through based on a notion that CWRU and CMU were playing a play-in game on Saturday.
Lynchburg is tough...could definitely see them missing out again which would be brutal to have that kind of resume and be left off two years in a row.
On Western CT, if the cmte stares long enough at them, I could see sentiment to push them ahead of Hamilton. Western CT, via a win and a draw, DID add a bit to their total record, while Hamilton of course was idle. I don't think there is a high likelihood of this happening, but I think there is at least some daylight that the cmte could make that move if really wanted to. As I noted elsewhere, Western CT might had have a very good chance if they were in Region II instead of I.
And I agree that Wartburg looks very, very similar to a few others so would not be surprised by them getting a bid although I wonder when the last time was that Region IX (old NORTH) got 3 Pool Cs. Btw, for whatever reason, Wartburg didn't make paclassic's RPI list, so I don't know if that has not any relevance in terms of what that taps for that the cmte might actually consider.
Swamped at work these days so this will be quick and not very thorough.
There is no criteria about how many teams from a region can/cannot be selected. The manual is very clear on this and past history supports that: some regions have been shutout of Pool C berths and some regions have gotten a lot. So CMU's chances are not affected at all, IMO, by how deep the committee would have to go before they come to the table.
Following the at-large selections over the years, I don't get the sense that there's much sentiment coming into play, nor that the order of teams change from Week 3 to Week 4 because the committee changes how they weigh the different criteria or what they factor in. I'm not saying if I think Western Conn. should be selected or not, just that if they were selected it would bring into question how much the first three rankings truly foreshadow the selections as is their primary intent. They were undefeated last week and still were behind Hamilton. I can't see how the comparison of the two would have changed in the past week.
The RPI is not a criteria the committee is tasked to apply, and I do think the committee is pretty faithful to following the criteria. So that won't hurt Wartburg. I personally wouldn't take Wartburg and think them and Skidmore are the longest shots of the bubble teams I list.
Projected Pool C bids
Locks: Montclair St, Kenyon, Johns Hopkins, Gustavus
Virtual Locks: Middlebury, Bowdoin, North Park, Christopher Newport
Probable Locks:
Ohio Northern - solid across record, sos and rvr
PAC Lutheran - record, plus 2 reg wins
F&M - record, reg win over #1
Tufts - 2 reg wins over #1,#2
SUNY Courtland - 4 regional wins but not great quality
Comfortable side of Bubble (in Order)
Williams - sos and solid rvr record with 2 wins over #2 and #3
NYU - strong sos but rvr record is weak
Case Western - solid rvr record
Bubble is uncomfortable
Catholic -solid record and sos but rvr is weak
Lynchburg - good record, weak rvr
Drew (higher reg rank than Alvernia despite only 1 rvr)
Hamilton vs Carnegie Mellon - similar resumes with a lot of activity and 2 rvr wins bit overall a losing rvr record, CM's record is better but Hamilton's quality wins are better...I go with UAA team over NESCAC for overall bid balance.
FW, first, congrats on Post #1000.
Yeah, I know there isn't a limit and that's good for everyone to know because often folks get caught up in will the cmte go five or even six deep in the UAA or NESCAC...and get into thinking of your example of two out of three between Vassar, Skid, and Brockport but not all three.
RE Wartburg: I know the RPI isn't relevant directly but I was asking if that instrument was picking up on something that would be relevant to the cmte.
We shall see about W CT....I've already said a change with Hamilton was unlikely, but if they were virtually tied the fact that W CT played two more games is a sliver of difference...and you have to stare at 20-0-2 versus 8-4-4 while knowing that W CT got a ranked win over another team (Vassar) that may well get a bid.
I'll say it again, it does not feel right rewarding a team with a bid that won only a third of their games. I get that other factors have to be considered, but what is the point of playing the games if winning them doesn't matter? This isn't division 1 where every team has the resources to schedule games against whoever they want.
A lot of predictions out there. Are there any predictions about the 16 host teams? Do you need lights to host? Is SLU in the running?
I'll leave the guesses about Pool C to people more knowledgeable than me, but I will say that in D3, I think it's ridiculous that a team that goes undefeated doesn't make the tournament. Especially a team with a regionally ranked win and an SoS over .500. Being eliminated from playing for the National title, without ever losing a game, is ridiculous. Especially in favor of teams with blemishes in half the games they played, who couldn't even make their own conference tournament, who finished the season 0-4-3. Hamilton's last win was over a month ago.
The NESCAC is brutal. I'm sure Hamilton is a very good team. I'm happy to see the program return to relevance. But deserve a bid to the NCAA tournament? Not with that resume.
And if you really want to get fiesty about it, take the common opponent. Hamilton beat Trinity (CT) 2-1, Western Conn 3-1.
The Region I committee was playing a game, assuming Western CT would get the AQ and they could try and get another NESCAC to the table with a slightly higher Regional Ranking. They need to fix that ranking and give Western CT the shot they earned. Western CT going 1-0-1 this week is a better week than Hamilton has had in a month. That's plenty of justification to move them up.
Approaching this as if I am the committee and selecting the teams in order
Shooter's Pool C Picks
1. Hopkins
2. Kenyon
3. Gustavus
4. North Park
5. Newport
6. Midd
7. Montclair
8. Ohio Northern
9. Bowdoin
10. Cortland
11. Case Western
12. NYU
13. Williams
14. F&M
15. Lynchburg
16. UW-Platteville
17. Tufts
18. CMU
19. Vassar
20. Pacific Lutheran
First 4 Out
Catholic
Skidmore
Hamilton
Lycoming
Not sure how Vassar gets in over W Conn. And how much does SoS get factored in - Hamilton beats Lynchburg and UW Platteville on that metric.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 07, 2022, 08:20:41 AM
Projected Pool C bids
Locks: Montclair St, Kenyon, Johns Hopkins, Gustavus
Virtual Locks: Middlebury, Bowdoin, North Park, Christopher Newport
Probable Locks:
Ohio Northern - solid across record, sos and rvr
PAC Lutheran - record, plus 2 reg wins
F&M - record, reg win over #1
Tufts - 2 reg wins over #1,#2
SUNY Courtland - 4 regional wins but not great quality
Comfortable side of Bubble (in Order)
Williams - sos and solid rvr record with 2 wins over #2 and #3
NYU - strong sos but rvr record is weak
Case Western - solid rvr record
Bubble is uncomfortable
Catholic -solid record and sos but rvr is weak
Lynchburg - good record, weak rvr
Drew (higher reg rank than Alvernia despite only 1 rvr)
Hamilton vs Carnegie Mellon - similar resumes with a lot of activity and 2 rvr wins bit overall a losing rvr record, CM's record is better but Hamilton's quality wins are better...I go with UAA team over NESCAC for overall bid balance.
Can't see Catholic AND Drew both getting in. I honestly think both will miss out altogether.
Lynchburg should have no issue making it so I'd move them to probable rather than uncomfortable.
Pacific Lutheran I'd consider a bubble team based on their SOS but agree they are most likely in unless geography plays a negative factor for them.
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 09:09:36 AM
I'll leave the guesses about Pool C to people more knowledgeable than me, but I will say that in D3, I think it's ridiculous that a team that goes undefeated doesn't make the tournament. Especially a team with a regionally ranked win and an SoS over .500. Being eliminated from playing for the National title, without ever losing a game, is ridiculous. Especially in favor of teams with blemishes in half the games they played, who couldn't even make their own conference tournament, who finished the season 0-4-3. Hamilton's last win was over a month ago.
The NESCAC is brutal. I'm sure Hamilton is a very good team. I'm happy to see the program return to relevance. But deserve a bid to the NCAA tournament? Not with that resume.
And if you really want to get fiesty about it, take the common opponent. Hamilton beat Trinity (CT) 2-1, Western Conn 3-1.
The Region I committee was playing a game, assuming Western CT would get the AQ and they could try and get another NESCAC to the table with a slightly higher Regional Ranking. They need to fix that ranking and give Western CT the shot they earned. Western CT going 1-0-1 this week is a better week than Hamilton has had in a month. That's plenty of justification to move them up.
The W&L guy and the Davidson guy finally agree on something!
Quote from: stlawus on November 07, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
I'll say it again, it does not feel right rewarding a team with a bid that won only a third of their games. I get that other factors have to be considered, but what is the point of playing the games if winning them doesn't matter? This isn't division 1 where every team has the resources to schedule games against whoever they want.
It all depends on how the NCAA and cmte views draws....which is the huge wild card that no one here has attempted a guess at. Remember also that in addition to ranked wins the cmte also considers total number of ranked
games.
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 09:09:36 AM
I'll leave the guesses about Pool C to people more knowledgeable than me, but I will say that in D3, I think it's ridiculous that a team that goes undefeated doesn't make the tournament. Especially a team with a regionally ranked win and an SoS over .500. Being eliminated from playing for the National title, without ever losing a game, is ridiculous. Especially in favor of teams with blemishes in half the games they played, who couldn't even make their own conference tournament, who finished the season 0-4-3. Hamilton's last win was over a month ago.
The NESCAC is brutal. I'm sure Hamilton is a very good team. I'm happy to see the program return to relevance. But deserve a bid to the NCAA tournament? Not with that resume.
And if you really want to get fiesty about it, take the common opponent. Hamilton beat Trinity (CT) 2-1, Western Conn 3-1.
The Region I committee was playing a game, assuming Western CT would get the AQ and they could try and get another NESCAC to the table with a slightly higher Regional Ranking. They need to fix that ranking and give Western CT the shot they earned. Western CT going 1-0-1 this week is a better week than Hamilton has had in a month. That's plenty of justification to move them up.
Those are excellent points. The West Conn AD should take some criticism for such a poor out of conference schedule when there are tons of good teams in the area.
What a wonderful villain/heartbreaker UMass-Boston is...
2016 vs very high seed Haverford AT Haverford the Beacons have at least two (and maybe three) men sent off in 2nd half with a ton of time left, and one of the red card incidents iirc included a question of whether there would be a criminal charge. UMass-Boston somehow, somehow held on to get to PKs for over 40 minutes and knocked the Fords out of the tournament. Totally changed the venue for the sectional which incredibly conveniently fell to Tufts (and the rest is history). Tufts not only got UMass-Boston at home instead of going to PA, but also got a depleted UMass-Boston with at least two starters missing including their star striker. Not saying Tufts wouldn't have beaten Haverford at Haverford but the latter was very, very good.
Now in 2022, the Beacons get to PKs again on the home field of W CT and probably knock out a 20-0-2 from the tournament.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 07, 2022, 09:57:44 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 09:09:36 AM
I'll leave the guesses about Pool C to people more knowledgeable than me, but I will say that in D3, I think it's ridiculous that a team that goes undefeated doesn't make the tournament. Especially a team with a regionally ranked win and an SoS over .500. Being eliminated from playing for the National title, without ever losing a game, is ridiculous. Especially in favor of teams with blemishes in half the games they played, who couldn't even make their own conference tournament, who finished the season 0-4-3. Hamilton's last win was over a month ago.
The NESCAC is brutal. I'm sure Hamilton is a very good team. I'm happy to see the program return to relevance. But deserve a bid to the NCAA tournament? Not with that resume.
And if you really want to get fiesty about it, take the common opponent. Hamilton beat Trinity (CT) 2-1, Western Conn 3-1.
The Region I committee was playing a game, assuming Western CT would get the AQ and they could try and get another NESCAC to the table with a slightly higher Regional Ranking. They need to fix that ranking and give Western CT the shot they earned. Western CT going 1-0-1 this week is a better week than Hamilton has had in a month. That's plenty of justification to move them up.
Those are excellent points. The West Conn AD should take some criticism for such a poor out of conference schedule when there are tons of good teams in the area.
I think it's the coach, through the AD, who lines up out of conference games.
Seems like the weighting for wins should increase in the tie-happy-no-OT world we are in now. Leagues count 3 points for a win, perhaps they should count as at least 2.5 in w/l % calculations by ncaa rankings committees.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 10:01:10 AM
What a wonderful villain/heartbreaker UMass-Boston is...
2016 vs very high seed Haverford AT Haverford the Beacons have at least two (and maybe three) men sent off in 2nd half with a ton of time left, and one of the red card incidents iirc included a question of whether there would be a criminal charge. UMass-Boston somehow, somehow held on to get to PKs for over 40 minutes and knocked the Fords out of the tournament. Totally changed the venue for the sectional which incredibly conveniently fell to Tufts (and the rest is history). Tufts not only got UMass-Boston at home instead of going to PA, but also got a depleted UMass-Boston with at least two starters missing including their star striker. Not saying Tufts wouldn't have beaten Haverford at Haverford but the latter was very, very good.
Now in 2022, the Beacons get to PKs again on the home field of W CT and probably knock out a 20-0-2 from the tournament.
OK, I couldn't resist looking it up...
Haverford led 1-0 on a 1st half Will Corkery goal. UMass gets first red card at 67:47. Haverford MISSES A PK to go up 2-0 at 74:05. With four minutes left UMass superstud Ocane Williamson scores to level after UMass has been down a man for almost 20 minutes. Then at 88:37 Williamson gets the second red. So UMass has to survive two OTs playing 9 v 11. They do and win PKs 4-2.
Shots 31-14 in favor of Haverford. Fouls also in favor of the Fords by a stunning count of 31 to 25 (nearly 60 fouls which almost makes Amherst look timid).
Not sure the scheduling criticism with W CT is totally fair. First, doesn't scheduling usually happen well before you know you're gonna have 20-0-2 season? Secondly, they did play Vassar and Drew, as well as a NJAC and a NESCAC (albeit Ramapo and Trinity).
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 07, 2022, 10:02:38 AM
Quote from: coach analytics on November 07, 2022, 09:57:44 AM
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 09:09:36 AM
I'll leave the guesses about Pool C to people more knowledgeable than me, but I will say that in D3, I think it's ridiculous that a team that goes undefeated doesn't make the tournament. Especially a team with a regionally ranked win and an SoS over .500. Being eliminated from playing for the National title, without ever losing a game, is ridiculous. Especially in favor of teams with blemishes in half the games they played, who couldn't even make their own conference tournament, who finished the season 0-4-3. Hamilton's last win was over a month ago.
The NESCAC is brutal. I'm sure Hamilton is a very good team. I'm happy to see the program return to relevance. But deserve a bid to the NCAA tournament? Not with that resume.
And if you really want to get fiesty about it, take the common opponent. Hamilton beat Trinity (CT) 2-1, Western Conn 3-1.
The Region I committee was playing a game, assuming Western CT would get the AQ and they could try and get another NESCAC to the table with a slightly higher Regional Ranking. They need to fix that ranking and give Western CT the shot they earned. Western CT going 1-0-1 this week is a better week than Hamilton has had in a month. That's plenty of justification to move them up.
Those are excellent points. The West Conn AD should take some criticism for such a poor out of conference schedule when there are tons of good teams in the area.
I think it's the coach, through the AD, who lines up out of conference games.
FYI, its CT state college fellow school, Eastern CT, tried that this year and last as they scheduled Messiah and F&M last year in the beginning of the season. E. CT this year went to Averett and Randy Mac to play two games in the beginning of the season as well. Unfortunately with mixed results, two ties this year and two loses last year. However, at least they tried (plus spent some money traveling). Also Eastern CT ended up in the NCAAs last year losing to Christ. Newport in the first round. This year they lost in the semis in OT to UMASS Boston which later beat Western CT.
It's also important to remember, the other school has to want to play you. Perennially ranked teams get to be very choosy about who they play out of conference. Playing you has to fit their purposes.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 07, 2022, 10:34:05 AM
It's also important to remember, the other school has to want to play you. Perennially ranked teams get to be very choosy about who they play out of conference. Playing you has to fit their purposes.
Very true - but the most valuable teams to play out of conference are those who have a very good record in a very weak conference. As PN says, its hard to predict this in advance but since they are such an attractive counterpart I would assume that they would have a lot of dance partners.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 07, 2022, 10:34:05 AM
It's also important to remember, the other school has to want to play you. Perennially ranked teams get to be very choosy about who they play out of conference. Playing you has to fit their purposes.
True and they generally do a home-home cycle so it can be bit of a crap shoot scheduling several years out.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 10:01:10 AM
What a wonderful villain/heartbreaker UMass-Boston is...
2016 vs very high seed Haverford AT Haverford the Beacons have at least two (and maybe three) men sent off in 2nd half with a ton of time left, and one of the red card incidents iirc included a question of whether there would be a criminal charge. UMass-Boston somehow, somehow held on to get to PKs for over 40 minutes and knocked the Fords out of the tournament. Totally changed the venue for the sectional which incredibly conveniently fell to Tufts (and the rest is history). Tufts not only got UMass-Boston at home instead of going to PA, but also got a depleted UMass-Boston with at least two starters missing including their star striker. Not saying Tufts wouldn't have beaten Haverford at Haverford but the latter was very, very good.
Now in 2022, the Beacons get to PKs again on the home field of W CT and probably knock out a 20-0-2 from the tournament.
I actually watched most of that Haverford game and it was pretty brutal.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2022, 09:48:15 PM
Bucket, in all seriousness, did you really scan that list and the only thing you noticed was Middlebury missing? Didn't notice North Park, Kenyon, Tufts, Case Western, NYU, etc missing OR wonder what Baruch, Eastern Naz, LaGrange, St John Fisher, Grove City, and Framingham St were doing in a list of Pool C candidates?
Yeah, pretty much. Admittedly, I really only have one lens when viewing such things. Maybe two if I want to include my alma mater, W&L. (And I do have strong non-playing soccer ties to the Generals. My best friends from school all played for Rolf Piranian, and to this day I'm on a text string with six of them; they are quite tired of my constant chirping about the Panthers.)
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 07, 2022, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 10:01:10 AM
What a wonderful villain/heartbreaker UMass-Boston is...
2016 vs very high seed Haverford AT Haverford the Beacons have at least two (and maybe three) men sent off in 2nd half with a ton of time left, and one of the red card incidents iirc included a question of whether there would be a criminal charge. UMass-Boston somehow, somehow held on to get to PKs for over 40 minutes and knocked the Fords out of the tournament. Totally changed the venue for the sectional which incredibly conveniently fell to Tufts (and the rest is history). Tufts not only got UMass-Boston at home instead of going to PA, but also got a depleted UMass-Boston with at least two starters missing including their star striker. Not saying Tufts wouldn't have beaten Haverford at Haverford but the latter was very, very good.
Now in 2022, the Beacons get to PKs again on the home field of W CT and probably knock out a 20-0-2 from the tournament.
I actually watched most of that Haverford game and it was pretty brutal.
I think the YouTube "highlights" of that game got a ton of views...
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 07, 2022, 10:34:05 AM
It's also important to remember, the other school has to want to play you. Perennially ranked teams get to be very choosy about who they play out of conference. Playing you has to fit their purposes.
I was thinking the same thing. Although even taking a loss W CT's record for Vassar is the SoS gift that keeps on giving.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 07, 2022, 10:41:57 AM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 07, 2022, 10:34:05 AM
It's also important to remember, the other school has to want to play you. Perennially ranked teams get to be very choosy about who they play out of conference. Playing you has to fit their purposes.
True and they generally do a home-home cycle so it can be bit of a crap shoot scheduling several years out.
FYI - W&L is an excellent example of how it worked out for them when it was willing to travel. When Singleton took over, he purposely scheduled difficult opponents away from VA like F&M and Rowan as well as OWU, Wooster, SUNY Oneonta. Have to have an AD who is willing to spend the money though. Ultimately, you all are talking, in part, about W&L because of it scheduling.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 07:49:03 AM
FW, curious to hear your thought process on CMU...
My question (or one of them) is whether the cmte will go that deep in Region VII...
That said, I would expect them to get to the table given who will be in front of them and taken, and I suppose by that time CMU's winning pct and SoS may stand out better and just having one ranked win won't keep them out because by that time few teams left on the board will have more than one ranked win or if they have two will fall very short compared to CMU on the other two measures.
There may be some hidden bias coming through based on a notion that CWRU and CMU were playing a play-in game on Saturday.
Lynchburg is tough...could definitely see them missing out again which would be brutal to have that kind of resume and be left off two years in a row.
On Western CT, if the cmte stares long enough at them, I could see sentiment to push them ahead of Hamilton. Western CT, via a win and a draw, DID add a bit to their total record, while Hamilton of course was idle. I don't think there is a high likelihood of this happening, but I think there is at least some daylight that the cmte could make that move if really wanted to. As I noted elsewhere, Western CT might had have a very good chance if they were in Region II instead of I.
And I agree that Wartburg looks very, very similar to a few others so would not be surprised by them getting a bid although I wonder when the last time was that Region IX (old NORTH) got 3 Pool Cs. Btw, for whatever reason, Wartburg didn't make paclassic's RPI list, so I don't know if that has not any relevance in terms of what that taps for that the cmte might actually consider.
Wartburg already had a fairly low RPI for Regional Rankings 3 and they dropped further for the final rankings. They are ranked 75th by RPI (.5640) for context
Also, SimpleCoach interview suggestion. A D3 committee member who can explain the thinking behind the rankings/at large selection process ;D
My understanding is that one of DIII's philosophies is to emphasize regional competition, which is better for reduced costs (thus increasing ability to field lots of sports and increase access) and for placing the emphasis on the student part of athlete by reducing missed classes.
https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2013/11/14/division-iii-philosophy-statement.aspx
"Give primary emphasis to regional in-season competition and conference championships"
Given that, if you are going to have an NCAA tournament (which is arguably a deviation from the philosophy because it creates perverse incentives like the the one that led to the creation of the Coast-to-Coast conference or induced teams like W&L, Redlands, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and many others to start scheduling expensive and time-consuming trips north, east, and sometimes west), then it makes sense to both prioritize regional strength through the regional rankings and to think about Pool C rankings with a regional lens. So, that's why SoS isn't the end all be all. If Pac Lutheran gets in, for example, over a team with a higher SoS, it will be an acknowledgment that it would send a bad message to western schools that they can only be in DIII if they can afford to travel far. Similarly, for teams in high density, high quality, areas, it sends the message that you need to find high quality nearby teams each year or you need to win in-conference because both can be done consistent with D3 philosophy. Not a perfect system, of course, but if the D3 emphasis is on conference tournaments and regional play over NCAA tournaments, then schools know that's what they signed up for by classifying as D3.
Paul Newman, the UMass Boston story has more to it as they had a third starter suspended retroactively for the Tufts game for an off the ball incident that wasn't seen during the game.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: stlawus on November 07, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
I'll say it again, it does not feel right rewarding a team with a bid that won only a third of their games. I get that other factors have to be considered, but what is the point of playing the games if winning them doesn't matter? This isn't division 1 where every team has the resources to schedule games against whoever they want.
It all depends on how the NCAA and cmte views draws....which is the huge wild card that no one here has attempted a guess at. Remember also that in addition to ranked wins the cmte also considers total number of ranked games.
PN-exactly! The ties are going to throw a wrench into things.
The good examples are Lycoming, Wartburg and some of the NESCACs like Tufts and Williams.
Lycoming comes in ranked 5th in Region 4 and boasts a 10-4-7 record with a nice SOS. They just took Stevens to the brink and lost in PKs in the conference final. They have 0 ranked wins (probably the ultimatum for them) but have played 9 ranked teams including 5 ties. Those ties include Hopkins, LBC, Gettysburg, Misericordia (won on PKs), Stevens (lost on PKs) and 4 losses to Rowan (NJAC champs), Messiah (Commonwealth Champs and #1 in the country), Misericordia and Stevens (Freedom champs and #4 in the country).
So how does the committee look at a team like this? 21 games played and only 4 losses, all of whom are ranked that include 3 conference champs and 2 of which are top 4 in the country with 0 combined losses between them. Technically zero ranked wins, as the PK advancement counts as a tie, but the win-loss % of the ranked opponents is similar and in some cases better when comparing to others like a Catholic, MSOE or Endicott. I've watched them play a handful of games, and maybe I've caught them on their good days, but I'd take them over many other bubble teams by just the eyeball test.
Wartburg is another example where they have only 2 losses all year in 18 games. They also come in ranked 5th in Region 9 and will be on the board at some point to be selected. The dagger for them is getting bounced so early in conference playoffs to Nebraska Wesleyan who they beat the week before. But, a solid SOS, 7-2-9 record and a decent 2-1-4 (probably 2-1-3) RvR should have them being considered. Ranked wins vs St. Olaf (MIAC champs) and Whitewater, ties with Gustavus (MIAC regular season champs), Platteville, Luther (ARC champs), and Loras (dropped out so this tie will drop off unless they jump back in final rankings) and the loss to undefeated North Central who won the CCIW.
How will committee value them once they get to the top to be compared with the other 9 regions? 9 ties but only 2 losses and clearly can compete with the best of the best as evidenced above. Another team where if I am being honest, should be ahead of teams like Catholic, Drew, Endicott, MSOE, most region 10 teams, etc.
I have seen 3 Wartburg games this year and similar to Lycoming, I think this team can play with just about anybody. Those others I mentioned...not so much.
Tufts/Williams are the next examples and while I think both will be dancing this afternoon, the ties for both teams are staggering. 7 for Tufts and 10! for Williams. Strong SOS for both teams and only a combined 3 losses. How will the committee view these ties? How will they view the minimal losses with a difficult schedule for all 4 of these teams we are comparing? We will find out at 1:30pm :D
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 07, 2022, 11:41:15 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: stlawus on November 07, 2022, 08:27:31 AM
I'll say it again, it does not feel right rewarding a team with a bid that won only a third of their games. I get that other factors have to be considered, but what is the point of playing the games if winning them doesn't matter? This isn't division 1 where every team has the resources to schedule games against whoever they want.
It all depends on how the NCAA and cmte views draws....which is the huge wild card that no one here has attempted a guess at. Remember also that in addition to ranked wins the cmte also considers total number of ranked games.
PN-exactly! The ties are going to throw a wrench into things.
The good examples are Lycoming, Wartburg and some of the NESCACs like Tufts and Williams.
Lycoming comes in ranked 5th in Region 4 and boasts a 10-4-7 record with a nice SOS. They just took Stevens to the brink and lost in PKs in the conference final. They have 0 ranked wins (probably the ultimatum for them) but have played 9 ranked teams including 5 ties. Those ties include Hopkins, LBC, Gettysburg, Misericordia (won on PKs), Stevens (lost on PKs) and 4 losses to Rowan (NJAC champs), Messiah (Commonwealth Champs and #1 in the country), Misericordia and Stevens (Freedom champs and #4 in the country).
So how does the committee look at a team like this? 21 games played and only 4 losses, all of whom are ranked that include 3 conference champs and 2 of which are top 4 in the country with 0 combined losses between them. Technically zero ranked wins, as the PK advancement counts as a tie, but the win-loss % of the ranked opponents is similar and in some cases better when comparing to others like a Catholic, MSOE or Endicott. I've watched them play a handful of games, and maybe I've caught them on their good days, but I'd take them over many other bubble teams by just the eyeball test.
Wartburg is another example where they have only 2 losses all year in 18 games. They also come in ranked 5th in Region 9 and will be on the board at some point to be selected. The dagger for them is getting bounced so early in conference playoffs to Nebraska Wesleyan who they beat the week before. But, a solid SOS, 7-2-9 record and a decent 2-1-4 (probably 2-1-3) RvR should have them being considered. Ranked wins vs St. Olaf (MIAC champs) and Whitewater, ties with Gustavus (MIAC regular season champs), Platteville, Luther (ARC champs), and Loras (dropped out so this tie will drop off unless they jump back in final rankings) and the loss to undefeated North Central who won the CCIW.
How will committee value them once they get to the top to be compared with the other 9 regions? 9 ties but only 2 losses and clearly can compete with the best of the best as evidenced above. Another team where if I am being honest, should be ahead of teams like Catholic, Drew, Endicott, MSOE, most region 10 teams, etc.
I have seen 3 Wartburg games this year and similar to Lycoming, I think this team can play with just about anybody. Those others I mentioned...not so much.
Tufts/Williams are the next examples and while I think both will be dancing this afternoon, the ties for both teams are staggering. 7 for Tufts and 10! for Williams. Strong SOS for both teams and only a combined 3 losses. How will the committee view these ties? How will they view the minimal losses with a difficult schedule for all 4 of these teams we are comparing? We will find out at 1:30pm :D
Wartburg is a good example and I actually overlooked them when picking my 20 Pool C teams. I didn't have them on my first 4 out either and probably should have. Nice catch! I agree with your post and also agree with Paul on the magnitude of ties and total ranked opponents. Time will tell how much weight these carry for the selections.
I just can't reward 7 wins in 18 games. Winning less than 50% of games played is my line in the sand. Same for 10-4-7, at least that's a bit more respectable.
I'll take a stab at the 16 host sites (without knowing who did and did not submit for hosting duties)
Messiah
Chicago
Amherst
Kenyon
Oneonta St
Stevens
Montclair
Hopkins
Wash Lee
John Carroll
North Central
Calvin
Gustavus
Middlebury
Ohio Northern
SLU/Babson/Bowdoin/Texas school
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
I just can't reward 7 wins in 18 games. Winning less than 50% of games played is my line in the sand. Same for 10-4-7, at least that's a bit more respectable.
Well 7-2-9 when breaking out the ties is 11-6-1 right? So if you look at it from that perspective it might shed more light. And the 7 wins is low but the 2 losses is impressive. The ties, these dreadful ties, will be the key factor of how they are viewed.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
I just can't reward 7 wins in 18 games. Winning less than 50% of games played is my line in the sand. Same for 10-4-7, at least that's a bit more respectable.
Well 7-2-9 when breaking out the ties is 11-6-1 right? So if you look at it from that perspective it might shed more light. And the 7 wins is low but the 2 losses is impressive. The ties, these dreadful ties, will be the key factor of how they are viewed.
In terms of how it's counted as winning percentage... yes. In terms of what actually happened... no. They won 7 games, they lost 2. They didn't win 11 and lose 6. If we are accepting that it is better for the game for teams to have these records, instead of about half as many ties using the 2 OT system, then we can't just say they would have won 50% and lost 50%. That's simply not true. There needs to be a better way. Personally I don't think ties should count in winning percentage. Because it's called "winning" percentage. So if you are 7-2-9, your winning percentage is 7/18 or 38.88889%. We can add losing percentage also, and they are at 11.1111%. So if you want to look at those two numbers, I think that is actually better than what we do now. They are more likely to win then lose, but 50% of the time they can't do either.
I look at Williams, winning 6 games, and think that in order for them to win the National Title, they are going to have to almost double their total wins for the year, or go through a lot of PKs. And yet they are likely going to get a shot at it. I don't like it. If you can't flat out win more than 1/2 the times you step on the field, I'm just not real impressed with your resume.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 07, 2022, 11:25:32 AM
Paul Newman, the UMass Boston story has more to it as they had a third starter suspended retroactively for the Tufts game for an off the ball incident that wasn't seen during the game.
Thanks, D4. I knew there was a reason I was thinking of three players.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 12:04:12 PM
I'll take a stab at the 16 host sites (without knowing who did and did not submit for hosting duties)
Messiah
Chicago
Amherst
Kenyon
Oneonta St
Stevens
Montclair
Hopkins
Wash Lee
John Carroll
North Central
Calvin
Gustavus
Middlebury
Ohio Northern
SLU/Babson/Bowdoin/Texas school
I would say that maybe Messiah and/or JHU may not host men's as their women's teams have had great seasons. JHU top in their region with Messiah second in womens. JHU 2nd in country with 15 wins and no loses while Messiah is 5th with one loss. I believe that womens would take priority, but clearly could be wrong.
I thought in even years, the men have preference. But I'm not super detail-oriented, so I'm sure someone with better handle on that can chime in.
(I'm not all that sure Hop should be up for a hosting gig on the men's side, but that's a separate issue.)
In even-numbered years the men have hosting preference the first weekend (1st/2nd Rounds) and the women have hosting preference the second weekend (Sectionals). In odd-numbered years it is reversed.
Messiah men will definitely be at home this weekend. If they advance, the men could also be hosting Sectionals even if their women advance. It depends who's in the women's sectional. If Hopkins or Misericordia is in the Sectional, Messiah women would not be the high seed and probably wouldn't host.
With regard to the abundance of ties, we just don't know yet how the committee will evaluate that. I tend to agree that treating them like in the calculation of winning pct. (a tie counts as half a win, half a loss) isn't how I think it should be done. I think it should be more along the lines of how points for standings are done: 3 pts for a win, 1 pt for tie. The 3:1 ratio is better IMO than the 2:1 ratio.
It would be interesting to calculate winning percentages taking ties as 1/3 win, 2/3 loss and see how teams compare that way.
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 12:28:30 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
I just can't reward 7 wins in 18 games. Winning less than 50% of games played is my line in the sand. Same for 10-4-7, at least that's a bit more respectable.
Well 7-2-9 when breaking out the ties is 11-6-1 right? So if you look at it from that perspective it might shed more light. And the 7 wins is low but the 2 losses is impressive. The ties, these dreadful ties, will be the key factor of how they are viewed.
In terms of how it's counted as winning percentage... yes. In terms of what actually happened... no. They won 7 games, they lost 2. They didn't win 11 and lose 6. If we are accepting that it is better for the game for teams to have these records, instead of about half as many ties using the 2 OT system, then we can't just say they would have won 50% and lost 50%. That's simply not true. There needs to be a better way. Personally I don't think ties should count in winning percentage. Because it's called "winning" percentage. So if you are 7-2-9, your winning percentage is 7/18 or 38.88889%. We can add losing percentage also, and they are at 11.1111%. So if you want to look at those two numbers, I think that is actually better than what we do now. They are more likely to win then lose, but 50% of the time they can't do either.
I look at Williams, winning 6 games, and think that in order for them to win the National Title, they are going to have to almost double their total wins for the year, or go through a lot of PKs. And yet they are likely going to get a shot at it. I don't like it. If you can't flat out win more than 1/2 the times you step on the field, I'm just not real impressed with your resume.
I don't disagree with you. Just stating that a tie is, on paper, half a win and half a loss. Is this how the committee will view it? I don't know, but it's a possibility.
This is also why they view other criteria. Would a 7 win team or a 6 win team get in last year? Probably not. But with the new tie rule (which should be banned for life) there has to be some sort of weight carried for the many, many teams that have historically more draws than ever before.
Can you fault a team for not losing because there is no regular season OT that could decide the deadlock after 90 minutes? I'd say no. Is Williams going to miss the dance with 1 loss all year? If you said a NESCAC team will have 1 loss all year and miss the tournament or be on the bubble everyone on the boards would call you crazy...but here we are ;D
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2022, 01:01:20 PM
With regard to the abundance of ties, we just don't know yet how the committee will evaluate that. I tend to agree that treating them like in the calculation of winning pct. (a tie counts as half a win, half a loss) isn't how I think it should be done. I think it should be more along the lines of how points for standings are done: 3 pts for a win, 1 pt for tie. The 3:1 ratio is better IMO than the 2:1 ratio.
It would be interesting to calculate winning percentages taking ties as 1/3 win, 2/3 loss and see how teams compare that way.
This will be the debate of all debates until they switch back to the old OT rules for the regular season ::)
Christian Shirk had made mention earlier on the boards, last week, I believe, that the women have hosting priority this year. Now he did not say first or second weekend but he seemed to be pretty clear. I'm not sure if the COVID year (yrs) had anything to do with some of change. Not sure.
Has anyone found the correct link for the selection show? The one that I've found on the NCAA is broken.
Every year the link doesn't work until right before the show starts. Frustrating, but that's how it is.
I know paclassics has mentioned a number of times his desire for the committee to define/divulge how they weight the different criteria. Which feels like a call to make it more rigid and formulaic, more objective, removing the human element. I disagree with that. I wish it was less structured and less data driven and more flexible and subjective.
I think paclassics wants it to be more formulaic so that the selections are more predictable and transparent. From the NCAA's standpoint, I think making it more rigid and formulaic allows the selections to be much more defensible and much less questionable than would be the case if the committee was given more flexibility and the process allowed for more subjectivity. I guess I'm more comfortable with the "grey" that subjectivity would bring rather than striving for "black and white" clarity where the reality is complex and nuanced and not always accurately captured mathematically.
There's so many observations, comments, and arguments that could be made to support either side of this issue, but I'll just leave a couple that have me firmly on the side of desiring more subjectively and flexibility.
As it currently stands, for the purposes of carrying out ranking/selection duties, a committee member has no reason to watch a real game and formulate an opinion about a team. In fact, an opinion formed from actually watching a team play (including their own team) doesn't seem like it could officially be used in the ranking/selection process. In other words, numbers/data not only trump first-hand observation, they are the only thing that can be considered. I'm not a fan of that.
The Massey ratings are 100% data driven and thus purely objective. I personally do not trust them. Overall it's not bad, but for me there are still way too many cases of a team having the numbers but not pasing the eye/smell test. If we followed Massey, wouldn't almost the whole NESCAC get into the tournament each year? A .500 or sub-.500 Colby should not be in the NCAA Tournament, IMO, but very well could be if the criteria becomes purely mathematical. So, no, thank you.
In general, I want to see the best teams get selected with the at-large berths. Without allowing for subjectivity, I think it's harder to achieve that objective. And I would be good with some flexibility to select an undefeated Western Conn. even if the numbers don't quite make the cut. As I could be OK with some leniency on the SOS-front for west coast teams. Rigid criteria doesn't allow for this, at least officially.
All that said, I do get that by allowing for a bigger dose of subjectivity, you'd become highly dependent on having committee members who can handle that responsibility and do a great job even though they have relatively little time to invest in it. And maybe that's another driver for a more data-driven process--it allows staff to crunch the numbers and requires less time on behalf of the actual decision makers. So I'm probably living in a idealistic, dream world when I wish for more subjectivity--both on the side of the time the committee can spend on this and on the ability to get enough committee members who would do an outstanding job with the subjective decisions they'd be free to make.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 01:10:36 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2022, 12:28:30 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: Ejay on November 07, 2022, 12:02:13 PM
I just can't reward 7 wins in 18 games. Winning less than 50% of games played is my line in the sand. Same for 10-4-7, at least that's a bit more respectable.
Well 7-2-9 when breaking out the ties is 11-6-1 right? So if you look at it from that perspective it might shed more light. And the 7 wins is low but the 2 losses is impressive. The ties, these dreadful ties, will be the key factor of how they are viewed.
In terms of how it's counted as winning percentage... yes. In terms of what actually happened... no. They won 7 games, they lost 2. They didn't win 11 and lose 6. If we are accepting that it is better for the game for teams to have these records, instead of about half as many ties using the 2 OT system, then we can't just say they would have won 50% and lost 50%. That's simply not true. There needs to be a better way. Personally I don't think ties should count in winning percentage. Because it's called "winning" percentage. So if you are 7-2-9, your winning percentage is 7/18 or 38.88889%. We can add losing percentage also, and they are at 11.1111%. So if you want to look at those two numbers, I think that is actually better than what we do now. They are more likely to win then lose, but 50% of the time they can't do either.
I look at Williams, winning 6 games, and think that in order for them to win the National Title, they are going to have to almost double their total wins for the year, or go through a lot of PKs. And yet they are likely going to get a shot at it. I don't like it. If you can't flat out win more than 1/2 the times you step on the field, I'm just not real impressed with your resume.
I don't disagree with you. Just stating that a tie is, on paper, half a win and half a loss. Is this how the committee will view it? I don't know, but it's a possibility.
Only in this case. Usually a tie is 1/3 of a win. 3 pts for a win, 1 pt for a tie. I wouldn't mind seeing that implemented as a percentage of total points. That way Williams would be at 6-1-10 and would have 28pts out of a total 51 or 54.9%. Western Conn at 20-0-2 would be at 62/66 or 93.94% of available points won.
That seems much more accurate than William's faux "Winning Percentage" of 64.7% (11-6).
Just once I'd like to make it through an NCAA selection show without the video crashing.
Thanks.
And I'm guessing they didn't change their clocks yesterday? Oh, wait, the NCAA is in Indiana...
Pool C's
UW-Platteville
Pacific Lutheran
Gustavus Adolphus
Middlebury
Franklin and Marshall
Cortland State
Christopher Newport
Lynchburg
Catholic
Johns Hopkins
Williams
New York University
Ohio Northern
North Park
Case Western Reserve
Kenyon
Carnegie Mellon
Tufts
Bowdoin
Vassar
No Western Conn. Kind of ridiculous in my opinion
Sorry but I find it ridiculous a team with 6 wins get a bid. Negates the purpose of playing games.
First of all, you have got to be kidding me with that Kenyon draw. And Stevens not much better. More on that later.
By my count I got 20/20 prediction-wise but must have an error because I had CMU as a wild card and they're in....so 21? Or who did I have in that I missed?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 09:22:45 AM
Approaching this as if I am the committee and selecting the teams in order
Shooter's Pool C Picks
1. Hopkins
2. Kenyon
3. Gustavus
4. North Park
5. Newport
6. Midd
7. Montclair
8. Ohio Northern
9. Bowdoin
10. Cortland
11. Case Western
12. NYU
13. Williams
14. F&M
15. Lynchburg
16. UW-Platteville
17. Tufts
18. CMU
19. Vassar
20. Pacific Lutheran
First 4 Out
Catholic
Skidmore
Hamilton
Lycoming
19/20 isn't too bad 8-)
Oh wow. Montclair? Montclair didn't get in? Wow, wow, wow. That's my one miss but did have CMU as a wild card.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 02:08:02 PM
Oh wow. Montclair? Montclair didn't get in? Wow, wow, wow. That's my one miss but did have CMU as a wild card.
Didn't you have Montclair as a lock? That seems like a big upset.
Quote from: Kuiper on November 07, 2022, 02:08:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 02:08:02 PM
Oh wow. Montclair? Montclair didn't get in? Wow, wow, wow. That's my one miss but did have CMU as a wild card.
Didn't you have Montclair as a lock? That seems like a big upset.
Well, as a "lock to very likely." There's no one on this board who wouldn't have picked Montclair. Not one.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2022, 01:29:23 PM
I know paclassics has mentioned a number of times his desire for the committee to define/divulge how they weight the different criteria. Which feels like a call to make it more rigid and formulaic, more objective, removing the human element. I disagree with that. I wish it was less structured and less data driven and more flexible and subjective.
I think paclassics wants it to be more formulaic so that the selections are more predictable and transparent. From the NCAA's standpoint, I think making it more rigid and formulaic allows the selections to be much more defensible and much less questionable than would be the case if the committee was given more flexibility and the process allowed for more subjectivity. I guess I'm more comfortable with the "grey" that subjectivity would bring rather than striving for "black and white" clarity where the reality is complex and nuanced and not always accurately captured mathematically.
There's so many observations, comments, and arguments that could be made to support either side of this issue, but I'll just leave a couple that have me firmly on the side of desiring more subjectively and flexibility.
As it currently stands, for the purposes of carrying out ranking/selection duties, a committee member has no reason to watch a real game and formulate an opinion about a team. In fact, an opinion formed from actually watching a team play (including their own team) doesn't seem like it could officially be used in the ranking/selection process. In other words, numbers/data not only trump first-hand observation, they are the only thing that can be considered. I'm not a fan of that.
The Massey ratings are 100% data driven and thus purely objective. I personally do not trust them. Overall it's not bad, but for me there are still way too many cases of a team having the numbers but not pasing the eye/smell test. If we followed Massey, wouldn't almost the whole NESCAC get into the tournament each year? A .500 or sub-.500 Colby should not be in the NCAA Tournament, IMO, but very well could be if the criteria becomes purely mathematical. So, no, thank you.
In general, I want to see the best teams get selected with the at-large berths. Without allowing for subjectivity, I think it's harder to achieve that objective. And I would be good with some flexibility to select an undefeated Western Conn. even if the numbers don't quite make the cut. As I could be OK with some leniency on the SOS-front for west coast teams. Rigid criteria doesn't allow for this, at least officially.
All that said, I do get that by allowing for a bigger dose of subjectivity, you'd become highly dependent on having committee members who can handle that responsibility and do a great job even though they have relatively little time to invest in it. And maybe that's another driver for a more data-driven process--it allows staff to crunch the numbers and requires less time on behalf of the actual decision makers. So I'm probably living in a idealistic, dream world when I wish for more subjectivity--both on the side of the time the committee can spend on this and on the ability to get enough committee members who would do an outstanding job with the subjective decisions they'd be free to make.
Very good post. I should clarify that I don't think all subjectivity should be removed but I think it would beneficial to become more aligned with the D1 process. Calculate an RPI throughout the year (it can be adjusted to weight SoS however the committee thinks it should be weighted) so there is an objective number to look at initially. And then RvR, H2H, etc can be used as more subjective criteria for teams that are close in RPI. Or use an adjusted RPI that bakes bonuses for ranked wins/losses into it. I think the issue now is there doesn't seem to be consistency across the committees and there's a lack of transparency on how certain criteria are weighted. Some regions seem to weigh SoS higher than others or RvR higher than others etc. There is no such thing as a perfect ranking system but I do think this process can be improved.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2022, 02:08:02 PM
Oh wow. Montclair? Montclair didn't get in? Wow, wow, wow. That's my one miss but did have CMU as a wild card.
That is a shocker to me. One bid out of that conference?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2022, 12:04:12 PM
I'll take a stab at the 16 host sites (without knowing who did and did not submit for hosting duties)
Messiah
Chicago
Amherst
Kenyon
Oneonta St
Stevens
Montclair
Hopkins
Wash Lee
John Carroll
North Central
Calvin
Gustavus
Middlebury
Ohio Northern
SLU/Babson/Bowdoin/Texas school
Missed F&M, Newport, Montclair, Mary Washington, John Carroll, Middlebury and Calvin
11ish/16
I assume WestConn must have had a terrible SOS? 20-0-2 and sitting at home is brutal - doesn't sit right with me.
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 07, 2022, 02:25:25 PM
I assume WestConn must have had a terrible SOS? 20-0-2 and sitting at home is brutal - doesn't sit right with me.
It was around .51 I think, so yeah, bad. 1-0-1 RvR I think. But yeah, especially passed over in favor of a team that won 6 games.
Even if you take out West Conn, Williams still got in over Montclair.
I feel for Montclair since they are one of the few nationally prominent teams that made the trip out to LA to play some SCIAC teams. Unfortunately, it didn't help them though. They surely thought the tie against Redlands would boost their record against regionally ranked teams, but Redlands had their first down year in over a decade, and then they beat a weak La Verne team 1-0.
The final RRs have just been released.
For the final rankings, the committee has Tuft and Williams over Middlebury. West Conn doesn't even leapfrog Hamilton. Like wtf is going on with those regional rankings.
What confuses me is the big movement from one week to another by teams that either did not play or played but did not win. I have no argument with Tufts and Williams ahead of Midd because both of those teams won games head to head. If that had been the standings in week 3, I would have been fine with it. Williams ties a Conn team that Middlebury beat, while Middlebury loses in OT to the #1 team in the region and then they get dropped?
Montclair dropping all the way to 4th in their region makes no sense to me either.
Yeah, I had a hunch that was going to happen. Hamilton blocked West Conn from even getting to the table for debate.
Now getting to the table and being selected are obviously two different things. The reality is they needed to jump Hamilton in the regional rankings to get up for debate, just as we all have been doing this week. Sadly they didn't get that chance.
Where is CMU's second ranked win? JCU is the only one I can identify, unless Rochester was ranked in the past two weeks?
If I had the patience I'd calculate CMU's non conference SoS - but I'd had to be close or just below .500.
It would also be interesting to remove Chicago from their calculations. I think Paul alluded to the effect of the Chicago's, Messiah's and Kenyon's of the world have on SoS.
OWU certainly stole a bid as they were not getting in without the NCAC tourney win. But CMU over Montclair is a sin. I don't think the UAA was anywhere near as dominant as they typically are.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 07, 2022, 03:18:49 PM
Where is CMU's second ranked win? JCU is the only one I can identify, unless Rochester was ranked in the past two weeks?
The new data sheets have not been released yet, except for Region I.
The win over Rochester counted last week, but with Rochester falling out of the Week 3 rankings and not returning in today's rankings, that win would have been lost.
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on November 07, 2022, 02:54:55 PM
What confuses me is the big movement from one week to another by teams that either did not play or played but did not win. I have no argument with Tufts and Williams ahead of Midd because both of those teams won games head to head. If that had been the standings in week 3, I would have been fine with it. Williams ties a Conn team that Middlebury beat, while Middlebury loses in OT to the #1 team in the region and then they get dropped?
Montclair dropping all the way to 4th in their region makes no sense to me either.
Actually I see no real surprises in how the Regional Rankings did or did not change from last week. Thanks to Paul Newman drawing attention to Brockport State we expected them to jump in and maybe overtake teams. They passed Skidmore which seemed possible if not likely. They didn't quite catch Vassar and didn't quite get selected. Muhlenberg getting in makes sense because they picked up 2 RvR wins in the past week for a 2-1-3 RvR by my quick count. Tufts and Williams jumping ahead of Middlebury might be the biggest surprise for me. Middle lost a RvR win with Conn Col. dropping out of the rankings in Week 3 while Williams shed a loss and Tufts dropped a tie. So RvR did favor those two over Middlebury, but Middlebury still should have had a somewhat better SOS and slightly better win pct. but lost head-to-head to both Williams and Tufts. My guess is that those teams were super tight. In the end they all got picked anyway.
Rowan and Montclair State switching spots seems reasonable to me. With the win, Rowan added another RvR win to build a 4-3-1 RvR if I'm not mistaken, while MSU's RvR would have been 2-2-1. Rowan's SOS was 31 pts higher entering the past week (.576 vs. .545) and that gap would have climbed as MSU helped Rowan's SOS more than Rowan helped MSU's SOS. They split the two head-to-head matches. Clear RvR and SOS advantages for Rowan would compensate for the win pct. favoring Montclair.
So for me the surprise is Montclair State not getting selected for an at-large, not where they were ranked.
Count me in as another observer who is shocked to see Montclair State out in the cold. The absence of the Red Hawks from the tourney field is going to be even more glaring when the new d3soccer.com poll comes out, because I'm guessing that MSU is going to show up somewhere in the low teens. I'm well aware that national polls have nothing to do with the selection process, of course, but, still, you almost never see a team that's ranked that high in any sport at tourney time miss out on the dance.
WestConn has been raised extensively as unfortunate, and I would generally agree with that assessment while recognizing the SoS factor. To me, it's most crazy to think that a team missed out on a Pool C with literally 3 times the number of wins (20) as Williams (6).
Quote from: blooter442 on November 07, 2022, 09:55:29 PM
WestConn has been raised extensively as unfortunate, and I would generally agree with that assessment while recognizing the SoS factor. To me, it's most crazy to think that a team missed out on a Pool C with literally 3 times the number of wins (20) as Williams (6).
SoS be dammed. Western CT was 4-0-1 against teams that made the tournament. Combine that with a 20-0-2 record and they got shafted. Pure and simple.
Just to add one more metric to the Williams conversation, in 11/17 games they scored 0 or 1 goal.
In 1 game they scored 4 - Bates.
In 1 game they scored 3 - Mount Aloysius.
In 4 games they scored 2
What exactly did they earn?
You can put the full blame on the regional committee for west conn not jumping Hamilton in the regional rankings. Blame probably isn't the right word, but the committee looked at the resumes and primary an secondary criteria and determined that Hamilton had a better resume, thus blocking western conn from even getting to the table for debate.
If you don't get to the table, you just don't have a shot.
Imho the committee put a significant emphasis on ties due to the rule changes made by the NCAA as it relates to the OT rule changes.
There sure is a lot of talk about Hamilton "blocking" WestConn in the regional rankings. But consider this - maybe both teams deserved to make the NCAAs. Perhaps the committee should reward wins at 2.5 or 3 instead of 2, placing a greater emphasis on wins and less on ties. Tufts skipped ahead of Hamilton after their NESCAC quarterfinal "loss" in Pks to Williams, which counted as another tie, pushing them to 7-2-7 instead of 7-3-6, and putting them ahead of Hamilton. So everything being said about Williams applies to Tufts - too great of a reward for ties benefitted both teams. A greater win value in the rankings model should be considered in this tie-happy world we are now in.
Thoughts on potentially expanding the tournament? https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/) There has been some discussion about this regarding D1 sports this year. We know there is an issue with too many AQs and not enough Pool C's. Would expanding the field help? Just some food for thought
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 07, 2022, 11:34:12 PM
Thoughts on potentially expanding the tournament? https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/) There has been some discussion about this regarding D1 sports this year. We know there is an issue with too many AQs and not enough Pool C's. Would expanding the field help? Just some food for thought
Interesting, but no D3 AD would go for it, I'm thinking. Add another weekend? 64 teams seems enough qualifiers. Always going to be teams that feel that they should have made it.
How about eliminating stupid conference tournaments?? AQ goes to the team that does the best in the conference
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 07, 2022, 11:34:12 PM
Thoughts on potentially expanding the tournament? https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/) There has been some discussion about this regarding D1 sports this year. We know there is an issue with too many AQs and not enough Pool C's. Would expanding the field help? Just some food for thought
It's not going to expand. D3 tournaments have been capped at 64 teams by the NCAA, even for sports that exceed the 6.5:1 access ratio in terms of 64 tournament slots (i.e., sports with more than 416 teams, of which there are several at the D3 level). Why? The long and short of it is because D3 tournaments are not self-supporting. The revenue to finance most of D1's tournaments and national meets and all of D2's and D3's tournaments and national meets comes from two sources: television contracts for D1 Bowl Division football, and television contracts for D1 men's basketball (particularly March Madness). Essentially, national competition is possible at this level only because of the largesse the NCAA provides from those two sources. D3 tourneys don't generate nearly enough revenue to fund the airfare, hotel bills, facilities costs, staffing, etc., that make those tourneys possible.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on November 08, 2022, 12:46:28 AM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 07, 2022, 11:34:12 PM
Thoughts on potentially expanding the tournament? https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-predictions-2022-23-expert-picks-for-2023-final-four-and-ncaa-tournament-champion/) There has been some discussion about this regarding D1 sports this year. We know there is an issue with too many AQs and not enough Pool C's. Would expanding the field help? Just some food for thought
Interesting, but no D3 AD would go for it, I'm thinking. Add another weekend? 64 teams seems enough qualifiers. Always going to be teams that feel that they should have made it.
How about eliminating stupid conference tournaments?? AQ goes to the team that does the best in the conference
The NCAA's intent is to promote self-governance among conferences wherever possible or practical. That includes the manner by which each conference determines its automatic bid to the NCAA tournament or national meet for each sport. The NCAA is
not going to dictate policy with regard to how each league assigns its AQs. That would run completely counter to the way that the NCAA's member schools have set up the organization's polity.
Calvin (16-2-2)
Calvin is 36-2-6 in the NCAA tournament.
This is their 20th appearance.
Wow, just wow. How has this team never won the entire thing.
I know they have made many deep deep runs, but definitely the Dutch of D2 soccer.
They year they lost to Tufts in the final: saw them in person several times - the Elite 8 win at Kenyon was a great game (both teams played excellently).
Concede the winning goal at the 109? minute mark off a corner. They attacked relentlessly but couldn't get one in. Most unlucky finalist in NCAA D3 soccer.
Love the nod to the Dutch - my first WC final I saw was 74 - closed circuit broadcast in a sold out Madison Square Garden. It was like being at the game - so much crowd noise! Changed my jersey number to 14 afterwards. . . .
So the ridiculous weather we've been having in Ohio is coming to an end. The mild mid to high 60's gives way to true fall weather this weekend. It is projected to rain most of the day Friday at Kenyon. We've not had much rain and ground is very firm. Played golf yesterday and the ball was running like it would normally in July and August. This type of scenario - slick surface, rock hard ground - makes selection of footwear important. Screw-in's should be avoided - a better choice would be ice skates - at least you can use your edges to maneuver. Molded aren't much better, I would wear turf shoes.
Once the front passes , Saturday and Sunday's high temps forecast to be 40's, high 30's. ONU's turf surface won't be an issue and winds aren't projected to be very strong.
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 08, 2022, 07:22:05 AM
They year they lost to Tufts in the final: saw them in person several times - the Elite 8 win at Kenyon was a great game (both teams played excellently).
Concede the winning goal at the 109? minute mark off a corner. They attacked relentlessly but couldn't get one in. Most unlucky finalist in NCAA D3 soccer.
Love the nod to the Dutch - my first WC final I saw was 74 - closed circuit broadcast in a sold out Madison Square Garden. It was like being at the game - so much crowd noise! Changed my jersey number to 14 afterwards. . . .
So the ridiculous weather we've been having in Ohio is coming to an end. The mild mid to high 60's gives way to true fall weather this weekend. It is projected to rain most of the day Friday at Kenyon. We've not had much rain and ground is very firm. Played golf yesterday and the ball was running like it would normally in July and August. This type of scenario - slick surface, rock hard ground - makes selection of footwear important. Screw-in's should be avoided - a better choice would be ice skates - at least you can use your edges to maneuver. Molded aren't much better, I would wear turf shoes.
Once the front passes , Saturday and Sunday's high temps forecast to be 40's, high 30's. ONU's turf surface won't be an issue and winds aren't projected to be very strong.
Johan da great man.
Its a game of inspiration, I remember watching Zico in 86 and thinking this guy is like a super hero, but I can maybe do the things he does! Now Diego was playing at the time, but we love who we love.
Kenyon is dangerous man, almost had an undefeated season. Newman and the boys should have high hopes this season.
Everyone is trashing Williams' resume, and the pile-on is a bit unfair. I understand the criticisms. But the other side of it is this:
First, Williams finished second in the regular-season, and made it to the conference semifinals, of the conference that has absolutely dominated D3 soccer over the past eight years (including the last FOUR national finalist teams over the past two years). Williams would have, obviously, had a better record in any other conference, and likely a MUCH better record in most. You do have to consider strength of opponents.
Second, yes, Williams had only six wins, but they also had only one loss playing in the best conference in the country. It is hardly Williams' fault that NESCAC decided to eliminate overtime this year, skewing the entire league towards a lot more ties than it would have otherwise had. You play by the rules your league establishes.
Third, Williams had two huge wins, over Bowdoin and Middlebury, both highly-ranked regional teams also playing in the NCAA tourney. Among its ties were Babson (top-ranked team in its region), Amherst (top ranked team in ITS region and a top overall seed in the tourney), Tufts twice (another NCAA tourney team and decade-long national power), Conn College (defending national champion), and Wesleyan and Hamilton (teams that were regionally ranked most of the year). The only "bad" ties were Springfield, Wheaton, and Colby, and obviously, ties in those games are still not nearly as bad as a loss.
Fourth, while they were not as has been pointed out a high-scoring team, Williams gave up only 9 goals in 17 games, which is certainly very impressive, especially vs. a schedule packed with national powerhouse teams. The Ephs had ten shutouts, and gave up only ONE goal in their last five games, all of which were big games vs. strong opponents. Clearly, Williams is a national defensive powerhouse.
It does not seem like Williams was even among last few teams into the tourney, based on where they are seeded, so it's not like they were the ones who knocked Western Conn or Montclair off the bubble. I just think it's unfair to direct so much ire at a Williams team which did earn its place among the top 64 teams (and likely are one of the best 30 in the country all things considered).
Williams is legit, played in the toughest conference and lost only 1 game, could be a sleeper, reminds me of an Italian team in the World Cup some time ago that struggled until the knockout phase and then won the whole thing.
We'll find out pretty quickly how legit they are. NYU first game.
Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
Williams is legit, played in the toughest conference and lost only 1 game, could be a sleeper, reminds me of an Italian team in the World Cup some time ago that struggled until the knockout phase and then won the whole thing.
Williams got by far the worst draw of all the NESCACs...NYU and if advance, Messiah. For me, Bowdoin got the second toughest NESCAC draw. Tufts I think will be very happy with their draw. Amherst got an almost Chicago-like draw. And if Midd gets through the first weekend the Panthers are going to the Final Four.
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 08, 2022, 10:47:43 AM
Quote from: camosfan on November 08, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
Williams is legit, played in the toughest conference and lost only 1 game, could be a sleeper, reminds me of an Italian team in the World Cup some time ago that struggled until the knockout phase and then won the whole thing.
Williams got by far the worst draw of all the NESCACs...NYU and if advance, Messiah. For me, Bowdoin got the second toughest NESCAC draw. Tufts I think will be very happy with their draw. Amherst got an almost Chicago-like draw. And if Midd gets through the first weekend the Panthers are going to the Final Four.
fair assessment.
Quote from: futbolfan on November 07, 2022, 11:05:53 PM
There sure is a lot of talk about Hamilton "blocking" WestConn in the regional rankings. But consider this - maybe both teams deserved to make the NCAAs. Perhaps the committee should reward wins at 2.5 or 3 instead of 2, placing a greater emphasis on wins and less on ties. Tufts skipped ahead of Hamilton after their NESCAC quarterfinal "loss" in Pks to Williams, which counted as another tie, pushing them to 7-2-7 instead of 7-3-6, and putting them ahead of Hamilton. So everything being said about Williams applies to Tufts - too great of a reward for ties benefitted both teams. A greater win value in the rankings model should be considered in this tie-happy world we are now in.
Tufts was already ahead of Hamilton before the NESCAC playoffs due to their 2-1-5 rvr record versus Hamilton at 2-4-1 i think. Plus tufts wins were over #1 and #2 at the time Middlebury. The committee clearly looks at quality of wins.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:59:18 AM
Calvin (16-2-2)
Calvin is 36-2-6 in the NCAA tournament.
This is their 20th appearance.
Wow, just wow. How has this team never won the entire thing.
I know you're joking, but, for those who are wondering what you're on about, the NCAA's misprint (dash rather than zero in the right-hand column of Calvin's loss total) in the ncaa.org D3 men's soccer championship record book conceals the fact that Calvin is 36-20-6 in D3 tourney play.
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:59:18 AM
I know they have made many deep deep runs, but definitely the Dutch of D2 soccer.
"D2"?
And, boy, you must really have it in for Calvin if you're identifying them by the nickname of their
hated fiercely unloved archrival. Did they put the wood to SLU at some point in the past?
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 08, 2022, 07:22:05 AM
Once the front passes , Saturday and Sunday's high temps forecast to be 40's, high 30's. ONU's turf surface won't be an issue and winds aren't projected to be very strong.
Good. Those sound like dramatically better conditions than when North Park went to ONU in early September.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 08, 2022, 11:04:09 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 08, 2022, 06:59:18 AM
Calvin (16-2-2)
Calvin is 36-2-6 in the NCAA tournament.
This is their 20th appearance.
Wow, just wow. How has this team never won the entire thing.
I know you're joking, but, for those who are wondering what you're on about, the NCAA's misprint (dash rather than zero in the right-hand column of Calvin's loss total) in the ncaa.org D3 men's soccer championship record book conceals the fact that Calvin is 36-20-6 in D3 tourney play.
I have corrected the info on D3soccer.com (https://d3soccer.com)'s 2022 NCAA Men's Participants (https://d3soccer.com/ncaatournament/2022/men/2022-mens-participants) page which we take from the 2022 NCAA Men's Soccer Division III Championships Records Book (https://d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2022/2022-NCAA-Mens-Soccer%20Division-III-Championships-Records-Book.pdf). We have corrected numerous errors as we find them in the record books, but that one did not catch my eye. Glad you guys brought attention to it so we could get it corrected on our website.
Still extremely impressive, but makes more sense now.
Otherwise, something would be way off.
I have spent most of the year focused on NESCAC since I live in the area and see some games.
One thing that is really bothering me is the NYU bid over Montclair St. I get that NYU has a mathematical advantage over Montclair is sos but their record is much worse. The next level analysis of rvr, heavily favors Montclair. NYU is 1-4-1 with a win over #7 Carnegie Mellon whereas MS is 2-2-1 with wins over #2 Rowan and #4 Vassar. Plus they really challenged themselves by going out to Redlands as well as other high end out of conference.
What am I missing here?
I am much more sympathetic to this situation than West Conn who played almost no one except Vassar and I really wonder if Vassar deserves to be in with one regional win versus #7 New Paltz. Hamilton's resume is similar.
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
To add to that they also hit post in the game against Chicago and out shot them 9-8 a man down...
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Tying the #1 ranked team in the country doesn't count for much? Ok.
How about this, watch them play Williams on Saturday and you'll see exactly why they're in the tournament.
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 02:50:56 PM
I have spent most of the year focused on NESCAC since I live in the area and see some games.
One thing that is really bothering me is the NYU bid over Montclair St. I get that NYU has a mathematical advantage over Montclair is sos but their record is much worse. The next level analysis of rvr, heavily favors Montclair. NYU is 1-4-1 with a win over #7 Carnegie Mellon whereas MS is 2-2-1 with wins over #2 Rowan and #4 Vassar. Plus they really challenged themselves by going out to Redlands as well as other high end out of conference.
What am I missing here?
I am much more sympathetic to this situation than West Conn who played almost no one except Vassar and I really wonder if Vassar deserves to be in with one regional win versus #7 New Paltz. Hamilton's resume is similar.
Be careful citing MS's victory over #2 Rowan as a key result. Rowan was really only at #2 because they beat MS in the conference championship. That leads to the logic of, MS beat Rowan, which shows strength because Rowan beat...MS.
I am new to following the Pool C race, but it seems like the committee had MS in a very similar boat to West Conn. Both teams were going to have to win their tournaments to make it in.
I guess NYU v. Williams is the nobody-believes-we-should-be-here showdown. Both with a lot to prove (before the winner likely goes down to Messiah, but anything can happen)!
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Tying the #1 ranked team in the country doesn't count for much? Ok.
How about this, watch them play Williams on Saturday and you'll see exactly why they're in the tournament.
It's such a weird deal, though, because we're told so many times that it all comes down to stats and key criteria.
But I totally agree with you on NYU. They are gnarly to play and have a proven goal scorer.
coach analytics, the pushback you're getting has almost nothing to do with NYU. It's all about maintaining (and enhancing) the shine of another team.
Regarding NYU, obviously it's not a zero sum game between NYU and MSU. I think almost all of us projected both getting bids pretty comfortably. Other candidates MSU could have replaced are Lynchburg, CMU, Vassar, Platteville, etc....Your point about NYU having a RvR of 1-4-1 is a good one though. I'm not sure that was front and center in my mind a week ago but I'm sure the cmte noticed.
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Tying the #1 ranked team in the country doesn't count for much? Ok.
How about this, watch them play Williams on Saturday and you'll see exactly why they're in the tournament.
National rankings are not a criteria for tournament selection. Neither are posts hit. Or minutes played man down..
Quote from: Bucket on November 09, 2022, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Tying the #1 ranked team in the country doesn't count for much? Ok.
How about this, watch them play Williams on Saturday and you'll see exactly why they're in the tournament.
National rankings are not a criteria for tournament selection. Neither are posts hit. Or minutes played man down..
I"m pretty sure SOS and RvR are very important criteria. Am I wrong on that?
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Bucket on November 09, 2022, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: coach analytics on November 09, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on November 09, 2022, 02:58:06 PM
NYU played the two best teams in the country and tied one of them a man down for 60 minutes.
I highly doubt that the committee takes into account how many posts you hit or how many times you played a man down and showed real grit.
I do not see the results at all. Nothing against NYU at all but when your best win is against a #7 ranked regional team (and you lost 4) I find it hard to understand the rationale.
Tying the #1 ranked team in the country doesn't count for much? Ok.
How about this, watch them play Williams on Saturday and you'll see exactly why they're in the tournament.
National rankings are not a criteria for tournament selection. Neither are posts hit. Or minutes played man down..
I"m pretty sure SOS and RvR are very important criteria. Am I wrong on that?
"Tying the no. 1 ranked team in the country does not count for much. OK". I do not think it does in the minds of the committee. The rvr counts all regionally ranked teams and their record was 1-4-1 with a win over 7 and a tie over 1. Maybe the tie against a #1 regionally ranked (not nationally ranked) team does matter but it does not change my question ...how does a team with 1-4-1 rvr make it over a team with 2-2 when the team also has a much stronger overall record. I will bet that almost every other at large team had a better rvr. 1-4-1 was one of if not the worst I have seen from the at large bids.
I tend to agree with PN in that maybe Montclair state and NYU both deserved it.
It will be a marquee game when they play Williams this weekend because both teams were clearly on the bubble and had mediocre results in the top two conferences.
RvR isn't the only criteria lol. NYU's SoS was .619. Combine that with their record and they weren't anywhere close to the bubble. I'm not sure people, and this might be an issue with the committee as well which is why I advocate for an adjusted RPI :), really appreciate the massive difference between a SoS of .619 and one of .537 just by eyeballing it
That .619 SoS is the highest in the region and higher than any NESCAC team.
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 09, 2022, 08:54:51 PM
RvR isn't the only criteria lol. NYU's SoS was .619. Combine that with their record and they weren't anywhere close to the bubble. I'm not sure people, and this might be an issue with the committee as well which is why I advocate for an adjusted RPI :), really appreciate the massive difference between a SoS of .619 and one of .537 just by eyeballing it
I agree that an RPI type formula would be far superior to a straight SOS. The problem with SOS is that it really just looks at opponents record for 2/3s of the weighting. For the NESCAC teams that play 10 of their 15 games in conference which means mathematically 10 of the games are against teams with 2/3 of their schedule in total balance out since they are all playing each other. This compares to a UAA team which plays less than half their games in conference.
Take one simple example in Region 1...Rhode Island College has a similar sos to Hamilton. That does not pass the smell test.
This is the exact reason that for mens college basketball the NCAA uses RPI to establish tiers but then looks at the won-loss record of each team against those tiers....This is similar to D3 soccer with the rvr.
This is why i am surprised that NYU gets in over someone like Montclair. Their sos is significantly boosted by playing Messiah, Stevens and Chicago (and I applaud them for two very very strong out of conf games unlike WestConn) but they only took a point from these three games and only 1 regional win all season. In region 1, Middlebury dropped behind tufts and Williams because of their poor rvr. Seems inconsistent.
NYU was always getting in. With that kind of SOS (possibly the highest in the nation) and a solid RvR there was never a doubt. The head scratcher is Montclair missing out. Shambolic from the committee to select Catholic an CMU over Montclair.
In CMU's defense, they had the resume on paper--but so did Hamilton who was left out. Easy to say now after Calvin embarrassed them, but for anyone that has watched CMU this year knew they weren't up for it.
If the committee watched any of the conference playoffs it would have been clear as day that Montclair was the superior team compared to the others I mention. For as wrong as they were with that miss, they got the other 18 to 19 selections spot on. But that's still not a pass to ignore the blatant miss on Montclair.
Do we really think Montclair loses to Calvin 5-0?
If Montclair gave up a goal against the run of play early, they absolutely could lose 5-0 to Calvin. They are known to fall apart when things don't go their way.
Montclair lost 3-0 in their conference final game.
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 12, 2022, 08:47:52 AM
If the committee watched any of the conference playoffs it would have been clear as day that Montclair was the superior team compared to the others I mention. For as wrong as they were with that miss, they got the other 18 to 19 selections spot on. But that's still not a pass to ignore the blatant miss on Montclair.
The thing is, the ranking and selection criteria doesn't officially provide room for personal, first hand observation of teams to factor in. Sure, that first hand impression could influence a committee member, but every decision needs to be defensible using the established criteria, so there's only so much wiggle room. If some committee members believed subjectively that Montclair State should be selected, they would have had to tout their winning pct, and de-emphasize SOS and RvR. Not easy to do when we all know that SOS and RvR are highly valued in the regional rankings and national selection process. That said, even based on the criteria and having a sense for how the committee applies and weights the criteria, I think Montlcair has a solid case against Pacific Lutheran, Carnegie Mellon, NYU and Middlebury, and it's hard to see how they got beat out by all four of them. By the numbers, I get Catholic, Vassar and Lynchburg getting selected before Montclair, but losing out to all four of the previously mentioned teams is very tough to understand, and I have no horse in this race and if anything bring a anti-NJAC fan bias to the table.
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 12, 2022, 09:26:45 AM
If Montclair gave up a goal against the run of play early, they absolutely could lose 5-0 to Calvin. They are known to fall apart when things don't go their way.
This!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 09:41:43 AM
Montclair lost 3-0 in their conference final game.
Thing is, I'm not sure the margin and nature of the loss could technically be considered. Where does that fit into the criteria? Now, that doesn't mean it couldn't/wouldn't influence the ranking/selection process. I guess as a game against a ranked opponent, the criteria "results against ranked opponents" would allow the score to be considered the result. But, would the score line in a loss to an unranked opponent be unable to be considered, but the score line versus a ranked opponent could be? Who knows for sure.
It was a bigger loss than any suffered by any of the other bubble teams that they were up against for an at-large berth.
Sorry, just responding the the notion that Calvin could "blow out" Montclair. We have recent evidence that if they go down in a one off game, things could get out of hand.
I watched that game and it wasn't a blowout. But the second goal broke them.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 12, 2022, 09:55:28 AM
Sorry, just responding the the notion that Calvin could "blow out" Montclair. We have recent evidence that if they go down in a one off game, things could get out of hand.
I watched that game and it wasn't a blowout. But the second goal broke them.
Yeah, when I replied my mind was on Montclair's at-large selection snub, not how bad they could be beaten. On second read I totally get your point and agree with you and d4_Pace.
No posts in this big 'national' thread since Nov. 12.
I think the Big Dance thread took its places.
And then you are off writing up incredible Sectional overviews... This thread got up to 60 pages... Pretty impressive!!
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 19, 2022, 07:25:38 PM
I think the Big Dance thread took its places.
And then you are off writing up incredible Sectional overviews... This thread got up to 60 pages... Pretty impressive!!
No worries. I was just pointing out that NESCAC wasn't the only usual high traffic thread that had dropped off. It's a reference to posts in another thread.
people need time to mourn as the tournament advances and teams get knocked out! :)
Chicago has made a remarkable 4 of the last 5 final fours (twice as many as the next most for Tufts, Amherst, and Calvin over that same period) but has yet to advance to the finals. Will this year be different?
You have to win when you get the shot man.
Say what you want about Conn College, but they are now cemented in history. Good luck to all the final 4 teams.
These boys should be extremely extremely proud of themselves.
While I'm rooting for the Ducks (with a few rare, deep-rooted rivals, I tend to pull for the team that knocked "my" team out), but I'm having a tough time seeing them beat the Maroons. I don't have as much time with Chicago as Stevens, but what I've seen is a very well organized team with a truly special finisher.
Bruno Andino has a knack to score GWGs, but I really didn't feel like Stevens put together a ton of dangerous chances yesterday. They have figured out a formula for success, but they've also been pretty fortunate to advance (2 games going to PKs, one goal win vs. Cortland).
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 21, 2022, 11:25:09 AM
Chicago has made a remarkable 4 of the last 5 final fours (twice as many as the next most for Tufts, Amherst, and Calvin over that same period) but has yet to advance to the finals. Will this year be different?
Here's hoping it will be different. UChicago has had a bad run of luck in semis matches. They were flat out robbed in 2017, the one goal that was scored in that game was called offsides, they showed the replay on the stream that showed Romero was clearly onside, and they fell in PKs. In 2018, Max Lopez was playing on one leg for the last weeks of the season and Calvin just ran them over with potent offense. In 2021, Yetishefsky had the game-winner on his foot in double OT and was only denied by a remarkable save by the GK. Then a minute later, a headed clearance to about 30 yards out turned into a wonder strike by Amherst that ended it.
United Soccer Coaches All-Region came out, which means a fresh round of travesty picks/snubs. Look no further than 1st Team GK in Region 8. No offense to the kid from Wisconsin Lutheran, but if you only start half of your team's games and win 5 of them... you shouldn't be 1st Team All-Region. And WLC lost to every real team on its schedule.
I know the voting system USC uses is mostly to blame, but this is further proof that coaches don't actually care who they vote for / clearly don't know what they're doing.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2022-NCAA-Division-III-Mens-All-Region-Teams.pdf
Quote from: blue_jays on November 29, 2022, 03:19:53 PM
United Soccer Coaches All-Region came out, which means a fresh round of travesty picks/snubs. Look no further than 1st Team GK in Region 8. No offense to the kid from Wisconsin Lutheran, but if you only start half of your team's games and win 5 of them... you shouldn't be 1st Team All-Region. And WLC lost to every real team on its schedule.
I know the voting system USC uses is mostly to blame, but this is further proof that coaches don't actually care who they vote for / clearly don't know what they're doing.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2022-NCAA-Division-III-Mens-All-Region-Teams.pdf
I am looking at some of the picks for Keepers.... ????
SC.
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 29, 2022, 05:44:07 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 29, 2022, 03:19:53 PM
United Soccer Coaches All-Region came out, which means a fresh round of travesty picks/snubs. Look no further than 1st Team GK in Region 8. No offense to the kid from Wisconsin Lutheran, but if you only start half of your team's games and win 5 of them... you shouldn't be 1st Team All-Region. And WLC lost to every real team on its schedule.
I know the voting system USC uses is mostly to blame, but this is further proof that coaches don't actually care who they vote for / clearly don't know what they're doing.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2022-NCAA-Division-III-Mens-All-Region-Teams.pdf
I am looking at some of the picks for Keepers.... ????
SC.
Which of these two keepers would you choose?
GK 1SV % - .806
GA - 7
GA Avg - .67
Shutouts - 6
Losses - 1
GK 2SV% - .813
GA - 6
GA Avg - .64
Shutouts - 5
Losses - 1
Would it surprise you to learn that GK1 was Conference GK of the year and a 2nd Team All-Region selection, while GK2 didn't even make All-conference? Oh, and they played on the same team and basically split the season in half, including the conference final when GK2 started and gave up 0 goals, and GK1 played the second half and gave up 3 in a 0-3 loss.
I had better stats in three years combined than either of these two, and was nowhere near getting an All Region Award.
SC.
Quote from: blue_jays on November 29, 2022, 03:19:53 PM
United Soccer Coaches All-Region came out, which means a fresh round of travesty picks/snubs. Look no further than 1st Team GK in Region 8. No offense to the kid from Wisconsin Lutheran, but if you only start half of your team's games and win 5 of them... you shouldn't be 1st Team All-Region. And WLC lost to every real team on its schedule.
I know the voting system USC uses is mostly to blame, but this is further proof that coaches don't actually care who they vote for / clearly don't know what they're doing.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2022-NCAA-Division-III-Mens-All-Region-Teams.pdf
The WLC GK is now a 1st Team All-American... this voting process is bonkers...
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/2022-united-soccer-coaches-ncaa-division-iii-mens-and-womens-all-america-teams-announced/
Quote from: blue_jays on November 30, 2022, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 29, 2022, 03:19:53 PM
United Soccer Coaches All-Region came out, which means a fresh round of travesty picks/snubs. Look no further than 1st Team GK in Region 8. No offense to the kid from Wisconsin Lutheran, but if you only start half of your team's games and win 5 of them... you shouldn't be 1st Team All-Region. And WLC lost to every real team on its schedule.
I know the voting system USC uses is mostly to blame, but this is further proof that coaches don't actually care who they vote for / clearly don't know what they're doing.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2022-NCAA-Division-III-Mens-All-Region-Teams.pdf
The WLC GK is now a 1st Team All-American... this voting process is bonkers...
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/2022-united-soccer-coaches-ncaa-division-iii-mens-and-womens-all-america-teams-announced/
Maybe they wanted to give hope to short GKs everywhere. For those who didn't have a chance to catch a Wisconsin Lutheran game this year, Puma Galvan, the United Soccer Coaches first team All-American at Goalkeeper is listed at 5'6" (and 141 pounds). Second team All American Nate Hanna of SUNY Oneonta is listed at 6'0". Only third team All-American Wesley Sanders of Gustavus Adolphus is 6'3".
I do find these goalkeeper stats spurious at best in terms of helping judge who the better keeper might be. In all my time here, I have never once seen similar data being recorded, let alone referred to. I have heard the callers in several games this year nominating a keeper catching a directionless cross, as a "save", when it's nothing of the sort and even the reference to "shots" taken is pretty unhelpful I think. There seems to be no filter for "proper saves", where actual proper goal scoring situations are denied, in the manner in which xG gets calculated. In Amherst's Sweet 16 game (Like PN I am not yet over it) the box score reported 20 shots by the two teams shared equally and 8 saves each. There's no way in the world that even half of those 20 shots were actual proper chances.
The stats referred to also tell us nothing about how good a keeper is with his feet, his role in organizing a defence etc I love stats, but don't think these ones serve much of a purpose.
I think that stats (offensive and keeper) are often subjective/open to interpretation and only as good as those "taking' them. There is no standardization. Obviously a goal is a goal. Offensively I think the assist is variable and some schools/scorers are more lenient than others. Some schools routinely count a hockey assist (two assists) while other schools will credit one player with an assist when in reality another scorer in same situation would give two. This makes it hard to draw accurate conclusion based on stats/paper. Just my two cents.
All I need to know about the fraudulent soccer coaches awards is that UChicago's lead striker who scored in the NCAA semis and title game did not even get All-Region. Which is fine, Yeti would rather be a national champion anyway.
Quote from: blue_jays on December 03, 2022, 08:38:51 PM
All I need to know about the fraudulent soccer coaches awards is that UChicago's lead striker who scored in the NCAA semis and title game did not even get All-Region. Which is fine, Yeti would rather be a national champion anyway.
Yeah, that was ludicrous. They aren't quite Max Lopez numbers but 13G, 1A with 7 game winners and goals in 4 of 6 tournament games was more than enough to be All-Region and I would have had him AA.
On the subject of the empty-netter — which I didn't have any issue with, considering if he missed Diffley was nowhere near getting back to take a goal kick with ~20 seconds on the clock —
The Chicago Maroon had a quote from the player:
"Honestly, I felt that before I scored the game was already over. Our defense was exceptional today... I was happy to score, but I was more excited for the team."
Quote from: blooter442 on December 04, 2022, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on December 03, 2022, 08:38:51 PM
All I need to know about the fraudulent soccer coaches awards is that UChicago's lead striker who scored in the NCAA semis and title game did not even get All-Region. Which is fine, Yeti would rather be a national champion anyway.
Yeah, that was ludicrous. They aren't quite Max Lopez numbers but 13G, 1A with 7 game winners and goals in 4 of 6 tournament games was more than enough to be All-Region and I would have had him AA.
If I'm not mistaken, the voting for USC All-Region occurs prior to the NCAA Tournament. So his scoring in the tournament wouldn't have been on his resume. And it's only 1st Team All-Region selections that are considered for All-American. More important than all of that, unless things have changed again, a coach can only nominate 4 field players and 1 GK from his team for All-Region. For Chicago's four field players, Gillespie and Wada are givens and looking at the All-Region teams Coach Sitch apparently nominated midfielder Lyndon Hu and defender Nathan Moonesinghe instead of Yetishefsky. Naz Kabanni is another very good player who probably merits All-Region consideration, but wouldn't have been on the ballot.
I don't know what honors Yetishefsky deserved, but, due to the nomination limits, he wasn't even on the ballot for All-Region. If he had been, he certainly would have be selected as a player for the nation's top team. But I wouldn't have expected him to have made 1st Team ALl-Region to get into the running for All-American. His record at the time of voting was 9 goals scored in 17 games (actually 15 games as he missed a pair of games) with no assists. He had 5 game-winners, but 3 of those came in games won 4-0, 3-0, and 3-0. And only 2 of his 9 goals were scored in games decided by less than a 3-goal difference. And one of those, the 2-1 game-winner versus Calvin, came 40 minutes after Calvin was reduced to 10-men. Besides his hattrick in the 3-0 win over North Park he wasn't really all that impressive
on paper.
I'm not fan of the USC awards and agree they always have numerous questionable inclusions and omissions. But in this case, the main culprit is probably their cap of 4 field players per team, not that ten other forwards from the region were considered better than Yetishefsky by the coaches. He probably wasn't on the ballot.
I'm sure folks on here have noticed the national coverage of Coach Sitch. It's really really cool and I'm very happy for her.
I was scrolling Instagram and the Men in Blazers feed had a great blurb, in their usual understated way (ha!)
I also like that, almost the entire season, I kept forgetting this was even a thing. It's not like we ignored it, it was discussed, after all. But it sure didn't really seem like that big of a deal to this board. I don't want to make too big of a deal about it, I just think y'all should reflect on that... That's both a positive for this group of posters, but for the sport in general.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 04, 2022, 05:18:43 PM
I'm sure folks on here have noticed the national coverage of Coach Sitch. It's really really cool and I'm very happy for her.
I was scrolling Instagram and the Men in Blazers feed had a great blurb, in their usual understated way (ha!)
I also like that, almost the entire season, I kept forgetting this was even a thing. It's not like we ignored it, it was discussed, after all. But it sure didn't really seem like that big of a deal to this board. I don't want to make too big of a deal about it, I just think y'all should reflect on that... That's both a positive for this group of posters, but for the sport in general.
I think those of us in the know discussed this when she was first hired. Then after that, the discussion was about the soccer, and could Chicago play and finally seal the deal. Think they answered that question.
SC.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 04, 2022, 05:18:43 PM
I'm sure folks on here have noticed the national coverage of Coach Sitch. It's really really cool and I'm very happy for her.
I was scrolling Instagram and the Men in Blazers feed had a great blurb, in their usual understated way (ha!)
I also like that, almost the entire season, I kept forgetting this was even a thing. It's not like we ignored it, it was discussed, after all. But it sure didn't really seem like that big of a deal to this board. I don't want to make too big of a deal about it, I just think y'all should reflect on that... That's both a positive for this group of posters, but for the sport in general.
Hop92, I'm curious how other posters read your post. I
think you were complimenting the group for not making a big deal out of it as though that is evidence of some kind of progress of acceptance here on the board and in general. I wasn't 100% sure, though, because of the "I just think y'all should reflect on that." What exactly are you imploring us to reflect on?
Having women coach men wasn't something that I'd been conflicted about while also appreciating the historical significance, which did get quite a bit of attention, including via a major piece in the NYT. Imo the Stich story in concert with the Wyant story is a great story, but I'm not sure how to evaluate what that means in the bigger picture. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that a NBA game had a full crew of women refereeing. A few years ago, having the first couple of women reffing was a big deal and now it's commonplace (although the overall ratio is still heavily skewed towards men). Still, though, really big picture, are we seeing more persons of color as head coaches in D3 or otherwise?
As for Stich, coaching a men's team to a national title is quite an accomplishment (just as it is for ANY coach), but in fairness, she did walk into a pretty awesome situation. Chicago was going to be a top 2 or 3 favorite to get to the Final 4 and maybe win a title regardless of who was coaching them. So imo we should be just as focused on Wyant who actually revived and re-built a NYU program that had become fairly mediocre into a nationally competitive team. At the time and in hindsight it seemed/seems fitting that those two teams tied and indeed that NYU handed Chicago its only blemish.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2022, 12:20:09 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 04, 2022, 05:18:43 PM
I'm sure folks on here have noticed the national coverage of Coach Sitch. It's really really cool and I'm very happy for her.
I was scrolling Instagram and the Men in Blazers feed had a great blurb, in their usual understated way (ha!)
I also like that, almost the entire season, I kept forgetting this was even a thing. It's not like we ignored it, it was discussed, after all. But it sure didn't really seem like that big of a deal to this board. I don't want to make too big of a deal about it, I just think y'all should reflect on that... That's both a positive for this group of posters, but for the sport in general.
Hop92, I'm curious how other posters read your post. I think you were complimenting the group for not making a big deal out of it as though that is evidence of some kind of progress of acceptance here on the board and in general. I wasn't 100% sure, though, because of the "I just think y'all should reflect on that." What exactly are you imploring us to reflect on?
Having women coach men wasn't something that I'd been conflicted about while also appreciating the historical significance, which did get quite a bit of attention, including via a major piece in the NYT. Imo the Stich story in concert with the Wyant story is a great story, but I'm not sure how to evaluate what that means in the bigger picture. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that a NBA game had a full crew of women refereeing. A few years ago, having the first couple of women reffing was a big deal and now it's commonplace (although the overall ratio is still heavily skewed towards men). Still, though, really big picture, are we seeing more persons of color as head coaches in D3 or otherwise?
As for Stich, coaching a men's team to a national title is quite an accomplishment (just as it is for ANY coach), but in fairness, she did walk into a pretty awesome situation. Chicago was going to be a top 2 or 3 favorite to get to the Final 4 and maybe win a title regardless of who was coaching them. So imo we should be just as focused on Wyant who actually revived and re-built a NYU program that had become fairly mediocre into a nationally competitive team. At the time and in hindsight it seemed/seems fitting that those two teams tied and indeed that NYU handed Chicago its only blemish.
100 percent that this board, in particular, took note but didn't make a huge deal out of it. Sometimes lack of attention shows more progress than everyone shouting and waving their arms around (figuratively).
I wasn't particularly active at the time Sitch was hired, but I observed the same general trend of people acknowledged it and moved on without making a big fuss. Even before winning the title, I thought it was evident from her press appearances (both the news and NCAA press conferences) that she has a really good relationship with her players, and that bond will only be strengthened by what they have accomplished.
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 05, 2022, 12:20:09 PM
So imo we should be just as focused on Wyant who actually revived and re-built a NYU program that had become fairly mediocre into a nationally competitive team. At the time and in hindsight it seemed/seems fitting that those two teams tied and indeed that NYU handed Chicago its only blemish.
This! She was the first!
Regardless of how ready U Chicago was, they never won before... they were not Messiah or Tufts... bottom line is when you win a national championship... especially an undefeated National Championship, you shut up everyone... even people who want to say something have to stay silent.... Great accomplishment by Chicago and their coach. Glass ceiling shattered... need to see more women coaching now... we have been disregarding 50% of the talent pool for way too long.