This isn't a topic limited to men's soccer, but it certainly affects men's soccer. I knew that there weren't many colleges participating in D3 in the western half of the U.S., but this map posted by NCAA Research really drove home the limited reach of D3 sports. It's largely located in the east and mostly the north eastern quadrant of the U.S. with a smattering of schools in the southeast and Texas and only a few clustered around Los Angeles and Portland.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO-JIkqXMAI5TWU?format=jpg&name=small)
Why is that? A couple of possible background reasons:
- Fewer schools overall in the west and fewer small liberal arts colleges, which are the traditional homes of D3 sports. Most of the west has large land grant state colleges, while the small colleges dotting the east and upper midwest were often started by religious groups etc before much of the population shifted west and south.
- Path dependence - because there are fewer D3 schools, other small schools don't have any travel partners nearby and therefore D1, D2 or NAIA may provide more opportunities
This can't be the whole answer, though. Although there are fewer schools in the west, there are many more schools in the west sponsoring sports in NAIA than in D3. For example, there are 19 NAIA schools in California, including a UC state school (UC Merced), 15 in Kansas, 13 in Texas, 8 in Nebraska, 8 in Oklahoma, 7 in Oregon, 6 in Montana, 5 in Arizona, 4 in South Dakota, 4 in North Dakota, 3 in Washington. Why did they all go NAIA and not D3?
Is there anything about D3 and its rules, though, that makes it unattractive to, or difficult to obtain by, schools in the west?
You're right that there are also fewer schools, which doesn't help. The growth of Division III was fairly large from about 1995 to 2010 or so, and after that, some curbs were put on entering Division III because D-III is so big already. In the late 1990s, we had the entire Northwest Conference come over from the NAIA, and the entire American Southwest Conference.
One of the reasons that the NAIA is more attractive to some schools than NCAA Division III (aside from the scholarships) is that you have to have a minimum number of sports in order to be a Division III member, based on your enrollment. One can be an NAIA member with just a couple of sports, but you can't do that in D-III.
I also suspect many of the schools we are looking at were NAIA members before Division III was created, so it wasn't even a choice.
But also, you are correct that you have to have available Division III opponents nearby in order to really be viable.
Division III is growing elsewhere, though. I think if you look at that rough line of dots on the map extending from about Richmond, Virginia, down to the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a number of those schools have joined Division III in the past 25 years. That's schools such as Berry, Huntingdon, Birmingham-Southern, Centenary, MUW, etc. The Division III brand is not as unknown in the South Atlantic and Gulf Coast areas as it used to be. But it will also be difficult to add a bunch of schools -- if all 15 Kansas schools wanted to come over, it's not like we would magically get to expand the NCAA Tournament by two teams to compensate. The Division III budget wouldn't get significantly bigger (other than those schools' annual dues). Division III is already basically too large.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 05, 2022, 02:03:37 PM
You're right that there are also fewer schools, which doesn't help. The growth of Division III was fairly large from about 1995 to 2010 or so, and after that, some curbs were put on entering Division III because D-III is so big already. In the late 1990s, we had the entire Northwest Conference come over from the NAIA, and the entire American Southwest Conference.
One of the reasons that the NAIA is more attractive to some schools than NCAA Division III (aside from the scholarships) is that you have to have a minimum number of sports in order to be a Division III member, based on your enrollment. One can be an NAIA member with just a couple of sports, but you can't do that in D-III.
I also suspect many of the schools we are looking at were NAIA members before Division III was created, so it wasn't even a choice.
But also, you are correct that you have to have available Division III opponents nearby in order to really be viable.
Division III is growing elsewhere, though. I think if you look at that rough line of dots on the map extending from about Richmond, Virginia, down to the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a number of those schools have joined Division III in the past 25 years. That's schools such as Berry, Huntingdon, Birmingham-Southern, Centenary, MUW, etc. The Division III brand is not as unknown in the South Atlantic and Gulf Coast areas as it used to be. But it will also be difficult to add a bunch of schools -- if all 15 Kansas schools wanted to come over, it's not like we would magically get to expand the NCAA Tournament by two teams to compensate. The Division III budget wouldn't get significantly bigger (other than those schools' annual dues). Division III is already basically too large.
Thanks. That's really helpful background/history. Is the issue with the NCAA tournament that a traditional NAIA men's soccer power like Westmont in Santa Barbara could join the SCIAC (if it ditched scholarships and picked up the requisite new sports), but it wouldn't be possible for expansion in other areas because there would be no DIII conference nearby for them to join, leaving the conference champion without an automatic tournament spot (and no desire by other members to reduce the wildcard spots)?
Westmont has seven men's sports and six women's. The SCIAC would have to let them in. Nine play soccer.
Quote from: Gray Fox on April 05, 2022, 08:09:50 PM
Westmont has seven men's sports and six women's. The SCIAC would have to let them in. Nine play soccer.
I mean, they don't *have* to at all, though, considering how long it took them to finally accept Chapman.
Quote from: Kuiper on April 05, 2022, 06:47:34 PM
Thanks. That's really helpful background/history. Is the issue with the NCAA tournament that a traditional NAIA men's soccer power like Westmont in Santa Barbara could join the SCIAC (if it ditched scholarships and picked up the requisite new sports), but it wouldn't be possible for expansion in other areas because there would be no DIII conference nearby for them to join, leaving the conference champion without an automatic tournament spot (and no desire by other members to reduce the wildcard spots)?
I think the challenge would be more around finding regular-season competition. I come from a football/basketball background to this question, but thinking of the UC Santa Cruz women's basketball team this year up in the Bay Area -- they definitely had a team which should have made the NCAA Tournament, but because there aren't enough teams in the area for them to play (and also a couple of COVID cancellations), they were only able to schedule 13 D-III opponents. They were not chosen as an at-large for the tournament because they weren't able to schedule enough games.
If a school joined basically anywhere in the Mountain Time Zone aside from Colorado, it would probably have to do something similar.
Similarly in Florida, Palm Beach Atlantic decided somewhere around 2005 or so that it wanted to join D-III, but it found that with no other D-III opponents in Florida, it wouldn't be viable, so they backed out of the D-III pipeline and instead chose D-II.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 06, 2022, 01:13:09 PM
Quote from: Kuiper on April 05, 2022, 06:47:34 PM
Thanks. That's really helpful background/history. Is the issue with the NCAA tournament that a traditional NAIA men's soccer power like Westmont in Santa Barbara could join the SCIAC (if it ditched scholarships and picked up the requisite new sports), but it wouldn't be possible for expansion in other areas because there would be no DIII conference nearby for them to join, leaving the conference champion without an automatic tournament spot (and no desire by other members to reduce the wildcard spots)?
I think the challenge would be more around finding regular-season competition. I come from a football/basketball background to this question, but thinking of the UC Santa Cruz women's basketball team this year up in the Bay Area -- they definitely had a team which should have made the NCAA Tournament, but because there aren't enough teams in the area for them to play (and also a couple of COVID cancellations), they were only able to schedule 13 D-III opponents. They were not chosen as an at-large for the tournament because they weren't able to schedule enough games.
If a school joined basically anywhere in the Mountain Time Zone aside from Colorado, it would probably have to do something similar.
Similarly in Florida, Palm Beach Atlantic decided somewhere around 2005 or so that it wanted to join D-III, but it found that with no other D-III opponents in Florida, it wouldn't be viable, so they backed out of the D-III pipeline and instead chose D-II.
That's what I figured. In men's soccer, UC Santa Cruz has a bizarre schedule where they are technically in the Coast to Coast conference, but they play no actual conference games before the conference tournament. This year, they instead played a full schedule of SCIAC opponents (8 out of 9 this year, only missing Cal Tech), a few games against Northwest Conference teams, and then filled out the rest of the schedule with NAIA and DII schools before traveling to Virginia to play in the CtoC conference tournament. That's a lot of work (and travel) to remain in D3.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 06, 2022, 01:07:01 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on April 05, 2022, 08:09:50 PM
Westmont has seven men's sports and six women's. The SCIAC would have to let them in. Nine play soccer.
I mean, they don't *have* to at all, though, considering how long it took them to finally accept Chapman.
I was thinking the same thing, but Chapman got too many D1 transfers when CS Fullerton gave up football and trounced all the SCIAC teams they played. That left a bad taste for a few years.
I couldn't find a good thread for this, so as I'm sitting here 1/4 mile from the Atlantic Ocean Michigan seems sufficiently "out West," and the topic seems relevant to some recent discussions about sports, enrollment, viability, etc.
I saw a headline for an article in the Detroit Free Press that reads "Adrian College used sports to save its school. And now they are national champions." There's a paywall so I didn't read the article except to see a paragraph that noted in the face of rapidly declining enrollment the college invested big in sports to turn the tide. Saw that the school got down to 850 students and seems like quite an achievement to win the D3 hockey national title.
Maybe someone who is familiar with Adrian and/or its hockey program can chime in. I know next to nothing and I found their website confusing as it seems Adrian has multiple hockey squads with references to D1, D2, and D3 and I assume the others are club hockey programs that may be drawing students as well?
This is real...
https://adrianbulldogs.com/news/2022/1/13/max-benedict-to-lead-cornhole-program-after-being-named-head-coach.aspx
Quote from: PaulNewman on April 15, 2022, 01:47:18 PM
This is real...
https://adrianbulldogs.com/news/2022/1/13/max-benedict-to-lead-cornhole-program-after-being-named-head-coach.aspx
Pat needs to add this to the proper place on the site.
WLCALUM83 will keep us up to date with scores, etc.
"Benedict resides in Tecumseh, Mich. and will begin recruiting and head coach responsibilities immediately. "
Where does one recruit HS corn hole players? High School keg parties?
Quote from: Ejay on April 15, 2022, 03:47:49 PM
"Benedict resides in Tecumseh, Mich. and will begin recruiting and head coach responsibilities immediately. "
Where does one recruit HS corn hole players? High School keg parties?
LOL. I expected to scroll down the bio and see that he played D1 cornhole at Detroit Mercy.
But here's the big million dollar question.....are they gonna tighten up the cornholing sub rules to be more in line with international cornhole standards? How many generally get carried on a roster, how many travel, and how many have to wait their turn a couple of years before snagging playing time?
Next...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_football
Then rockem-sockem robots, and Atari pong...
Quote from: PaulNewman on April 15, 2022, 01:47:18 PM
This is real...
https://adrianbulldogs.com/news/2022/1/13/max-benedict-to-lead-cornhole-program-after-being-named-head-coach.aspx
2 more cornhole sport links:
https://www.cornholeaddicts.com/leagues
https://americancornhole.com (next televised meet is scheduled for 4/22-23/22 in Cedar Rapids, IA)
ACO's got too many divisions, so I'd have to pick only 1 or 2, mainly.
Quote from: PaulNewman on April 15, 2022, 03:54:59 PM
Quote from: Ejay on April 15, 2022, 03:47:49 PM
"Benedict resides in Tecumseh, Mich. and will begin recruiting and head coach responsibilities immediately. "
Where does one recruit HS corn hole players? High School keg parties?
LOL. I expected to scroll down the bio and see that he played D1 cornhole at Detroit Mercy.
But here's the big million dollar question.....are they gonna tighten up the cornholing sub rules to be more in line with international cornhole standards? How many generally get carried on a roster, how many travel, and how many have to wait their turn a couple of years before snagging playing time?
I guess that it's all riding upon whether or not the D1 schools with cornhole programs will insist upon playing a split-season schedule. It's all a part of that big chase to make cornhole an Olympic sport, no doubt.
In all fairness to our beanbag-tossing youth, however, you have to concede that if the rich kids who attend the tonier D3 schools can participate in intercollegiate squash, fencing, and equestrian, it's only right that the blue-collar kids get to play intercollegiate cornhole. Besides, cornhole doesn't look any weirder on a D3 school's athletics webpage than esports. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea of video games being an intercollegiate sport.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-UeyN-r_lEz4%2FUQAgvgoF_qI%2FAAAAAAAAG3c%2FuQltVx0jBwE%2Fs1600%2Fogre-nerds.gif&hash=ca00e4ff617fff3c4228acd8507622291dcbc612)
Meanwhile, I'm tipping my cap to the Adrian rugby team, which went 3-1 against Big Ten competition last season while also defeating Kentucky, Louisville, and Notre Dame. Sure, those were club teams that the Bulldogs were playing, but those club teams (Notre Dame aside) draw their players from absolutely gargantuan student populations.
Adrian is a school of about 1,700 students that sponsors 45 varsity teams (including each of the multi-level hockey teams for both men and women). Wow.
Quote from: Ejay on April 15, 2022, 03:47:49 PM
"Benedict resides in Tecumseh, Mich. and will begin recruiting and head coach responsibilities immediately. "
Where does one recruit HS corn hole players? High School keg parties?
Hmm. I'm a pretty fair thrower and I've got 4 years of eligibility left :)
Quote from: WLCALUM83 on April 16, 2022, 10:48:10 AM
2 more cornhole sport links:
https://www.cornholeaddicts.com/leagues
https://americancornhole.com (next televised meet is scheduled for 4/22-23/22 in Cedar Rapids, IA)
ACO's got too many divisions, so I'd have to pick only 1 or 2, mainly.
Results from Cedar Rapids. IA cornhole meet are up:
https://players.americancornhole.com/schedules/index/1/results#divisions
(Note: Go to the arrow for the division you want to look at, and then left-click. Scroll down a bit on the next screen that shows up.)
To bring the thread back on topic (not that the discussion of cornhole meet results aren't fascinating to many, I'm sure), Simple Coach has a new Quick Shot up with the coach at Luther about the difficulty faced by teams in the west (which really includes the midwest and southwest - reflecting just how small the footprint of D3 athletics is in the US):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmKpOCnp9S8
For what it's worth, I echo the general sentiment of the conversation that it really is challenging for western program to thrive in D3 and I'm also not sure what you could do about it. The effect of travel, both in terms of wear and tear and jet lag, on traveling west to east, probably can't be overstated for western teams competing in the NCAA tournament. Moreover, lumping in a UChicago with a Redlands or Claremont obscures that effect because (1) you're talking about a one hour time difference versus a three hour time difference and (2) the flights are more than twice as long.
It's little wonder that the only time the NCAA DIII Men's Soccer national championships was held in California or anywhere on the West Coast -- in 1991 when the Final Four was held in San Diego -- UC San Diego won it (although, to be fair, UCSD also won it in 1988 (at Rochester Inst) and 1993 (at Williams) and Redlands lost in the finals in 2001 (at Messiah) and UC Santa Cruz lost in the finals in 2004 (at Greensboro)). It's also little wonder that UCSD moved to DII and recently just made the jump to DI.
It's a chicken and egg thing ... if there were more D3 schools in the west you would probably see more D2/NAIA schools wanting to move to D3. But yeah, unless you have very deep pockets and a huge commitment to the principles of D3 there's very little reason for a school to make a move. It does happen - Centenary (LA) and St Thomas (TX) are among those to move to D3 despite their modest financial situations. But if you're in the Mountain time zone or a state school on the west coast? Fuggitaboutit. Colorado College has hung in for decades despite having to board a plane to play anyone in D3 including their conference opponents, but they're an odd duck with several D1 sports grandfathered in.
Quote from: Kuiper on May 05, 2022, 04:03:47 PM
For what it's worth, I echo the general sentiment of the conversation that it really is challenging for western program to thrive in D3 and I'm also not sure what you could do about it.
First, @Kuiper, thanks for watching! I usually have to think about what parts to put up as a Quick Shot. This one was so obvious.
Two, totally get the issue. Totally understand the challenges and the real differences and challenges that western teams face. His breakdown of the travel they endured in a week during the Tournament in 2019(?), was downright shocking.
Finally, I am with you. I am not sure what to do about it. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
SC.