University of Mary-Hardin Baylor just promoted their assistant coach to head coach (the HC was promoted to Assoc. AD) and the story mentioned that the assistant coach had been HC of the reserve team.
https://cruathletics.com/news/2022/5/4/general-bankhead-allen-ralston-set-for-new-roles-at-umhb.aspx
Curious, I checked the website, and to their credit, they are pretty open about their reserve team, even posting a schedule with results (https://cruathletics.com/sports/ms-reserve-squad/schedule). They played a small number of games against a mix of club teams and others.
On the one hand, I applaud the creation of a reserve team. If the university is going to mandate that coaches increase the size of their rosters, they should at least schedule a few games so those kids can actually play some. It might not be more than a more organized version of college club soccer, but it's better than sitting on the bench the whole season.
On the other hand, the existence of a reserve team should set off some red flags in a recruit's mind because it may be an admission that a large set of kids will never play.
The biggest concern, though, is about transparency or lack thereof. I rarely see a reserve team mentioned on a team's website. Any idea how many D3 schools have them? Is it that they are really uncommon or are teams kind of hiding that fact until later? If the latter, are they at least transparent in recruiting about it and do recruits know when they are likely to play only on the reserve team? Are they used as legitimate stepping stones to develop freshman and others until they are ready to play in Soph or Junior year or are they basically permanent homes for players who they know will never play? The former makes sense. The latter seems problematic without adequate disclosure.
All you need to do is look a prior seasons' rosters. If there are 30-40+ kids listed then there's a good chance they have a reserve team. If not, then there's a bunch of kids who will never see the field in any capacity (in this case a reserve team is good). I've seen these teams used both ways (development & home to those who don't make the main roster). It's competitive, and there are always new commits & transfers so never a guarantee of playing time regardless of the age of the player.
I think rosters in the low 30s are common. W&L has 34. No reserve team. Virtually all players get some playing time, with the exception of one or two. Those players tend to leave the team. In my opinion a good coach will give most players time. Not doing so harms morale. I know every player on W&Ls team traveled to North Carolina for the Final Four game, even though not all players were rostered. There's a sense of everyone being valued on the team.
As of a couple of years ago, Williams had a JV team. My son's high school team scrimmaged them..
Quote from: Another Mom on May 31, 2022, 04:33:18 PM
I think rosters in the low 30s are common. W&L has 34. No reserve team. Virtually all players get some playing time, with the exception of one or two. Those players tend to leave the team. In my opinion a good coach will give most players time. Not doing so harms morale. I know every player on W&Ls team traveled to North Carolina for the Final Four game, even though not all players were rostered. There's a sense of everyone being valued on the team.
As of a couple of years ago, Williams had a JV team. My son's high school team scrimmaged them..
Thanks. I think most college JV teams are defunct now. Williams may still have one, but as of 2019 according to this article (https://williamsrecord.com/178652/sports/athletics-dept-rethinks-jv-teams-as-participation-dwindles/) they were being phased out there as well.
It may be that most "reserve" teams still in existence are just vestiges of JV teams with a rebrand. I'm not so sure though. My understanding of JV teams back in the day is that these were really separate teams with a full schedule, while reserve teams seem to be players who actually practice with the first team, coached by a first team assistant, and they allow for a few more games to be scheduled for players who for all other purposes (travel, meetings etc) are integrated with the first team. I could be mistaken though.
At least in D3, it's becoming more and more common for those "30-40+" rosters, but I don't think most of those schools have reserve teams. Or, at least, if they have them and think they are good things, it's odd that they don't publicize them at all.
My kid's team had 35 rostered players, and everyone played at least 1 game except the 4th string keeper. There were cuts in the pre-season and those kids were guaranteed a spot on the club team.
When I played years back, we didn't have a JV team per-se, but players on the bottom of the depth chart did play a few games against local CC's.
A fair number of midwestern D3 programs have JV/reserve teams. In fact, at least seven of the nine CCIW schools have them. (I'm not sure if Augustana and/or Wheaton fielded JV/reserve teams in 2021.)
However, a brief scan through Region VII, Region VIII, and Region IX revealed only three schools that post their JV/reserve schedules on their website's soccer page: Calvin, Carthage, and North Park. As I said, though, I didn't spend a lot of time and effort sifting through all three regions looking for JV/reserve schedules.
In the past, NPU's reserve team played a lot of games against local jucos. However, that seems to be a thing of the past; none of the three programs indicated above played any JV/reserve games against junior colleges in 2021. Almost all games were against their fellow D3 midwesterners, with a smattering of NAIA JV/reserve teams here and there. NPU did play one game against a local club team here in Chicago, Edgewater Castle FC, and a game against the reserves of D2 Lewis.
Can't speak for D3 teams, but I know Marshall in D1 had a reserves team last year, but have now cut that. Even if it was every second week, it would at least give players proper game time, particularly those freshmen/players returning from injury. I presume that given the tight budgets many colleges have to work with, if they ran a reserves team, it might have to be at the expense of something else.
At Tufts our golden number for the roster was 28 with slight variance. We didn't have a reserve team but the independently run club team was very good, qualifying for club national against the big D1 state schools most years. Each year we would have a kid or two from the club team be invited to tryout for the team with a few making it and becoming big contributors/starters.
I visited Wesleyan in 2019 with my son and the coach stated that the club team was his reserves.
JV teams, as a separate group with somewhat separate practices and their own (abbreviated) schedule of games, seemed fairly common back in the 80's and 90's. They've declined after that, I guess. Messiah discontinued their JV program when Dave Brandt took over as head coach in the the late 90's.
Messiah also seems to target a roster of 28 players and have never had more than that. In the early days of the Messiah's rise to dominance (early 00's), roster sizes were smaller in the 23 to 25 range. Then 26 (+/-1) was typical for a while before 28 became typical in the last 10 years.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 02, 2022, 01:37:42 PM
JV teams, as a separate group with somewhat separate practices and their own (abbreviated) schedule of games, seemed fairly common back in the 80's and 90's. They've declined after that, I guess.
Not everywhere. As I said, they're still fairly common in the midwest.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on June 02, 2022, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 02, 2022, 01:37:42 PM
JV teams, as a separate group with somewhat separate practices and their own (abbreviated) schedule of games, seemed fairly common back in the 80's and 90's. They've declined after that, I guess.
Not everywhere. As I said, they're still fairly common in the midwest.
It's interesting how some of those midwestern schools with reserve teams list a separate reserve team roster, while others list everyone on the same roster and include them in the same team photo, making it difficult for a recruit to know the real size of the varsity roster and how the school uses its reserve team.
In the CCIW, Carthage is an example of the former. It has a JV team roster of 38 and a schedule of 14 games (the Varsity has 43 listed on its roster, but 8-10 of those appear to be guys double rostered on the JV team, like some extra GKs). By doing this, it suggests that the JV team practices separately and a few of those players are also invited to practice with and be available for the varsity. On the other hand, both squads traveled to Texas to play games against Concordia in September, even though Concordia doesn't list a separate JV team and the JV team did list a mid-week red v. white scrimmage that could have been varsity players who didn't play in the game the day before v. JV.
https://athletics.carthage.edu/sports/jv-mens-soccer/roster
North Park, by contrast, lists a roster of 60, has a team photo with 60 players, and only lists a separate reserve team schedule and doesn't identify who played in those games.
https://athletics.northpark.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster
Hard to imagine that North Park could hold integrated practices with 60 players, but you can't really tell from the website.
Elmhurst, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan are on the JV team schedules for both North Park and Carthage, but don't mention that they have reserve teams on their website at all and just list really large varsity rosters. Since they aren't the 60-70 total players on Carthage or North Park, that suggests there may not be a fixed group and who plays in those games may change from week to week.
In any event, none of this is really the wrong approach. I personally like transparency from the standpoint of not misleading recruits, but if a coach really uses the reserve team games for anyone on the roster who didn't play that week, it certainly makes sense not to label kids as one or the other. It shouldn't take web sleuthing, though, to figure all of this out.
Quote from: Kuiper on June 02, 2022, 05:48:03 PMIt's interesting how some of those midwestern schools with reserve teams list a separate reserve team roster, while others list everyone on the same roster and include them in the same team photo, making it difficult for a recruit to know the real size of the varsity roster and how the school uses its reserve team.
In the CCIW, Carthage is an example of the former. It has a JV team roster of 38 and a schedule of 14 games (the Varsity has 43 listed on its roster, but 8-10 of those appear to be guys double rostered on the JV team, like some extra GKs). By doing this, it suggests that the JV team practices separately and a few of those players are also invited to practice with and be available for the varsity. On the other hand, both squads traveled to Texas to play games against Concordia in September, even though Concordia doesn't list a separate JV team and the JV team did list a mid-week red v. white scrimmage that could have been varsity players who didn't play in the game the day before v. JV.
https://athletics.carthage.edu/sports/jv-mens-soccer/roster
North Park, by contrast, lists a roster of 60, has a team photo with 60 players, and only lists a separate reserve team schedule and doesn't identify who played in those games.
https://athletics.northpark.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster
That's more a function of sports information staffing and priorities at the D3 level than anything else. I can't remember the last time I saw a D3 school post JV stats or box scores on its website for
any sport, including football and men's basketball.
Quote from: Kuiper on June 02, 2022, 05:48:03 PM
Hard to imagine that North Park could hold integrated practices with 60 players, but you can't really tell from the website.
North Park holds separate practices for the varsity and the reserves. Given the size of the coaching staff, it's just not feasible to run one practice with a roster that large.
Quote from: Kuiper on June 02, 2022, 05:48:03 PM
Elmhurst, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan are on the JV team schedules for both North Park and Carthage, but don't mention that they have reserve teams on their website at all and just list really large varsity rosters. Since they aren't the 60-70 total players on Carthage or North Park, that suggests there may not be a fixed group and who plays in those games may change from week to week.
The same is true of fellow CCIW programs Carroll and Millikin, although in reality none of those CCIW programs goes tremendously deep into its roster in terms of varsity rotation. Illinois Wesleyan is an exception, since head coach Kyle Schauls is a firm believer in using two shifts of players (21 of the Titans saw action in ten or more varsity games in 2021, and five other Titans appeared in nine). You pretty much know ahead of time which players you're going to see in any given CCIW contest, unless it's a blowout.
While I can't speak conclusively for any program other than NPU's, the impression I have of the Carthage program is that, despite the roster overlap, the Firebirds really do run discrete varsity and JV teams. NPU definitely does -- although it's certainly not unheard of for Vikings reserves to move up to the varsity in mid-season.
Also, the size of the rosters can be deceiving. A very large percentage of NPU's roster consists of walk-ons, and I strongly suspect that much of Carthage's roster is likewise annually made up of self-recruited players. As one would expect, attrition is pretty pronounced among the walk-ons, once they come to the realization that they really don't have what it takes to reach the varsity level in a program that's that good, and they drop away ... after having already appeared in the team picture.
Quote from: Kuiper on June 02, 2022, 05:48:03 PMIn any event, none of this is really the wrong approach. I personally like transparency from the standpoint of not misleading recruits, but if a coach really uses the reserve team games for anyone on the roster who didn't play that week, it certainly makes sense not to label kids as one or the other. It shouldn't take web sleuthing, though, to figure all of this out.
I agree that it would be helpful to split the roster on the website, but there's so much in-season fluidity there that it'd be next to impossible to keep it up to date, anyway.
Again, though, this is to a certain degree about walk-ons rather than recruits if we're talking specifically about NPU and Carthage. I won't speak for Carthage here (especially since there was a coaching regime change made this off-season up in Kenosha), but nobody's being misled at North Park. The mere fact that the NPU men's soccer page features a team picture with sixty guys in Vikings kits, plus a reserve schedule, informs any prospect before he's even spoken to head coach Kris Grahn or one of his assistants that there is a lot more competition for a varsity spot at NPU than there is at, say, Millikin or Elmhurst, and that, unless he's an elite recruit who had a lot of other opportunities, there's a very good chance that he'll be playing with the reserves as a freshman.
Quote from: Flying Weasel on June 02, 2022, 01:37:42 PM
JV teams, as a separate group with somewhat separate practices and their own (abbreviated) schedule of games, seemed fairly common back in the 80's and 90's. They've declined after that, I guess. Messiah discontinued their JV program when Dave Brandt took over as head coach in the the late 90's.
Messiah also seems to target a roster of 28 players and have never had more than that. In the early days of the Messiah's rise to dominance (early 00's), roster sizes were smaller in the 23 to 25 range. Then 26 (+/-1) was typical for a while before 28 became typical in the last 10 years.
I played JV baseball... very much a separate entity from the full squad back in the day...
Junior varsities are an interesting part of intercollegiate sports, and they're definitely not a one-size-fits-all proposition. Some programs run their JV teams as a true junior squad, in which underclassmen who will definitely get promoted to varsity somewhere down the road, and who may in fact end up being key players by their junior or senior years, get the necessary development, refinement, and game experience they need. Some use it as a dumping ground for walk-ons and/or marginal recruits; IOW, a JV team whose purpose is more programmatic than developmental and which is run with little or no expectation that anybody useful for varsity purposes will arise from the JV roster. Some programs are a mixture of the two philosophies. Some JV teams get a lot of involvement and input from the head coach. Some don't, and are considered to be a means for younger assistants to develop their head coaching potential. Some play extensive schedules, some don't. Some run schedules that go all of the way through the season, some don't (for example, JV football teams often stop playing games in early October, due to the sport's natural injury attrition). Some programs publicize that they have a JV team, while with others you have to actively inquire or search to find out if the JV team even exists. Some programs have JV teams every year; others only operate them when there's an excess of players. And, as we've been discussing, some have rosters discrete from the varsity, while others are simply culled from one large general roster on a game-by-game basis.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on June 03, 2022, 11:00:02 AM
Junior varsities are an interesting part of intercollegiate sports, and they're definitely not a one-size-fits-all proposition. Some programs run their JV teams as a true junior squad, in which underclassmen who will definitely get promoted to varsity somewhere down the road, and who may in fact end up being key players by their junior or senior years, get the necessary development, refinement, and game experience they need. Some use it as a dumping ground for walk-ons and/or marginal recruits; IOW, a JV team whose purpose is more programmatic than developmental and which is run with little or no expectation that anybody useful for varsity purposes will arise from the JV roster. Some programs are a mixture of the two philosophies. Some JV teams get a lot of involvement and input from the head coach. Some don't, and are considered to be a means for younger assistants to develop their head coaching potential. Some play extensive schedules, some don't. Some run schedules that go all of the way through the season, some don't (for example, JV football teams often stop playing games in early October, due to the sport's natural injury attrition). Some programs publicize that they have a JV team, while with others you have to actively inquire or search to find out if the JV team even exists. Some programs have JV teams every year; others only operate them when there's an excess of players. And, as we've been discussing, some have rosters discrete from the varsity, while others are simply culled from one large general roster on a game-by-game basis.
My suspicion is that the transition from JV teams to student-run club teams at many schools was because the model of using the JV team as a dumping ground for walk-ons made them not as useful for development of either Varsity players or coaches and students taking ownership of the teams as part of a club sports program overseen by the university's athletics department or rec sports department was more satisfying for the players and more cost-efficient for the university. As some smaller schools struggle for enrollment and team sport recruitment has become one part of an admissions/enrollment strategy that involves assigning coaches a "quota" that involves larger rosters, I wouldn't be shocked to see some movement back toward the JV/reserve team model. Of course, like youth soccer recruiting for the "B" team, which often involves luring players to tryouts for the "A" team and then trying to convince marginal players that the B team would be great for them, being very upfront about the reserve team in recruitment might be counterproductive unless you can show it is a true pathway to the first team.
Quote from: southsidejet on May 31, 2022, 02:51:00 PM
All you need to do is look a prior seasons' rosters. If there are 30-40+ kids listed then there's a good chance they have a reserve team. If not, then there's a bunch of kids who will never see the field in any capacity (in this case a reserve team is good). I've seen these teams used both ways (development & home to those who don't make the main roster). It's competitive, and there are always new commits & transfers so never a guarantee of playing time regardless of the age of the player.
This is so interesting. Just listened to a podcast that mentioned a story involving a D3 team that made an "offer" and called player a "commit" and gave no indication that there was a chance this might not work out. The player arrived to find 40 or so guys at preseason and learned that cuts would be made. Cuts were indeed made, the player was sent home to await the beginning of the school year, and had no further role on the soccer team ever again. This was a few years back, but evidently that the coach is still there. Is this a common practice in D3s?
Was it Bates?
I don't think overrecruiting to that degree, with resulting large numbers of cuts, is common. My son was focused on high academic d3s, and with those schools that kind of overrecruiting wasn't an issue.
That said, every year a few players leave my son's team, either because they see the writing on the wall, or because they are cut. Every player on that team was recruited, so cuts do happen to kids who were once recruited. But I believe they happen junior year -- not freshman year, as in your example.
Most teams that I'm familiar with offer their commits a guaranteed 1 year roster spot. After that Fr. year, all bets are off and they need to earn the right to keep their spot each year going forward.
From my experience playing, (many many years ago), at the D2 level, and as a part of my son's recruiting process, not all JV/reserves are created equally and for good reason. Some coaches with no reserves my son spoke to said he would come in and most likely not get many minutes his freshman year, but thought his IQ and skills were good, just needed to improve speed and put on some size which would help on their lifting programs. Others said, we have a reserve team, and would have you play there year 1, so you could continue to develop, and get competitive minutes, and train with the 1st team and get called up if/when your performances are good and you are needed. Other coaches, had a reserve team, didn't mention it and we know from families whose son's went to these schools they were either placed on that team from the get go, or just sat on the end of the bench and never played. I think each school, each coach and program ... and more importantly each kid is different so I think making sure to ask a lot of questions and get clarity from a coach is really important.
Short answer: $$. Increases enrollment at school. Some kids are well aware they are not top team material and are OK with playing JV. others not so much. His HS friend likely have one year to make it to the varsity team - no varsity minutes as Sophomores the chances of seeing time as juniors/seniors is unlikely
Quote from: OWU Dad on May 31, 2023, 01:42:42 PM
Hey, new to the board and first time posting. This has been a great resource.
So, my son is an upcoming sophomore at OWU and had decent playing time as a freshman. A number of his HS soccer buddies attend schools that utilize reserve ('JV') teams, and unfortunately, that's where many of them ended up their freshman years--on the JV team. In talking with some of these kids as well as some of their parents, they're nervous that they'll never see the light of playing on the main squad. They feel that only a few ever get to move up. What are the thoughts on this board? If true, it almost begs the question: why do they even have JV teams?
Do you or have you ever been a soccer player for OWU? If so, are you the player that kicked a soccer player in the head in 1986, during a night game, and knocked him unconscious? I WANT THE TRUTH!
SC.
Quote from: Another Mom on June 16, 2022, 01:50:27 PM
Was it Bates?
I don't think overrecruiting to that degree, with resulting large numbers of cuts, is common. My son was focused on high academic d3s, and with those schools that kind of overrecruiting wasn't an issue.
That said, every year a few players leave my son's team, either because they see the writing on the wall, or because they are cut. Every player on that team was recruited, so cuts do happen to kids who were once recruited. But I believe they happen junior year -- not freshman year, as in your example.
I guess it has been a while since I logged in! The school was Endicott.
Quote from: LibbyMoore on August 14, 2023, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Another Mom on June 16, 2022, 01:50:27 PM
Was it Bates?
I don't think overrecruiting to that degree, with resulting large numbers of cuts, is common. My son was focused on high academic d3s, and with those schools that kind of overrecruiting wasn't an issue.
That said, every year a few players leave my son's team, either because they see the writing on the wall, or because they are cut. Every player on that team was recruited, so cuts do happen to kids who were once recruited. But I believe they happen junior year -- not freshman year, as in your example.
I guess it has been a while since I logged in! The school was Endicott.
Coach @ Endicott has a history of carrying a very large roster and bench, and heard of many kids leaving the program and the school after 1 year feeling there wasn't a genuine answer given during the recruitment process around fit or playing time.
Messiah has a club team that competes vs similar teams at schools of all NCAA levels. They had a JV team a long time ago, but not this century. In that period, very few players transferred out, one or two just quit, but none to my knowledge were cut. As I've often said, Messiah doesn't recruit—they don't approach players who haven't first approached them. Those in that group who are deemed to have enough skill and athleticism are offered places, but only the first (fill in a number that may vary in a given year) who accept and pay a deposit are actually accepted onto the team. At that point, new inquiries are turned away.
Messiah is pretty transparent on their recruiting - definitely a key differentiator from most other programs.
https://gomessiah.com/sports/2012/1/17/MSOC_0117121600?id=49
JV/Reserve teams are to the benefit of the program, not the player. Unfortunately, I hear more stories about lofty promises, and the "potential" of moving to the first team (enter video clip of Rudy getting to dress and lead the team out of the tunnel) than I do kids that actually do. I honestly think they should fade away, and if a player is being recruited with the promise of a reserve team spot, I would encourage them to rethink their recruitment, and refocus on programs where they can/are considered for a true first team roster spot. Regardless of level (D1, D3, etc) the priority of any athlete is to find a place they can potentially play, and even better, play in meaningful games. A college soccer or bust approach, especially when applied to reserve teams is more times than not a bust. I think very similar to a kid with a D1 or bust mindset that ends up being the 5th GK on a mid major program. To each their own, but again, reserve teams seem to serve the coach and program, and more times than not, lead to disappointment for the player.
Last all male class to graduate from W&L in 1988, also last JV soccer team participant. Once it was announced that they were going coed, the team went away.
Long story, but our JV coach was way, way, way old school and was hilarious. He had no clue about soccer other than he had to coach it so that he could remain a professor (back in those days coaches who started in the 50s or 60s became professors and actually had tenure). I believe that he retired two years later. Things like not remembering most of our names and just guessing or interchanging our names. His favorite drill was of course the line-pass shoot drill - he said "Okay everyone lets get in lines of 4, then 3, then 2 then 1 and pass among each other so someone scores." Also the JV field was a meadow with rocks. It was awesome. I played on the team for that season and was one of 3 guys who made the varsity next year.
Modern day - we have on this board talked from time to time about failing colleges. Small to medium liberal arts colleges, which perhaps are not particularly competitive to get into like NESCAC schools and may have financial issues, have a huge dilemma - attracting young men to their college (or any college) which shows up in a huger male/female imbalance. As many of you already know men are not going to college. Currently, the ratio of male/female has totally flipped 60/40 and many times much worse. Therefore, more men come to their schools more financially viable the school may be as well as less of an imbalance. I am not talking about colleges that are competitive to go to.
Athletics is a huge, huge draw for some guys to go to college. Some schools recently brought back or started football at their colleges. Not a huge, huge trend, but this might extend to some soccer squads at D3 schools. That coach may be paying for his men's program by having 30 plus and/or a reserve squad. Several of those players maybe could have gone to a state school or community college and just be a student. If not for soccer and the possibility of playing, would that kid be at that college?
All speculation by me in some cases, but could be close to or the truth. From this article -
There are also immediate effects like increased male enrollment and increased total enrollment. - "'It does help in terms of male enrollment. For small tuition-driven institutions it is a quick way to get 80-100 males to enroll at your school,' said Matthew Burke, athletic director at Mount Ida College." From a very good article which has charts -
https://surviveandthriveboston.com/index.php/to-start-a-football-program-or-not/
Also check out these if you can
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/08/magazine/men-college-enrollment.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/sports/dropping-football-northeastern.html
FYI, but for the possibility of playing soccer, my son would not of transferred to a D3 program. (School is 45% female 55% male and does have a football program) If he had stayed at the regional state college he was attending, he would have easily graduated in 3 years because of his APs and his credits earned in other programs (his BS majors were applied math/stats and econ). But for Covid and coaching change, he would have not gone to D3 program. The D3 program is also an academically competitive college. However, he was not going to the college for its academics. Whether he finished his college career in three years or four, did not affect his earning potential or professional life. He merely wanted a chance to play and we were alright with it for a lot of reasons.
Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 19, 2023, 08:45:57 AM
JV/Reserve teams are to the benefit of the program, not the player. Unfortunately, I hear more stories about lofty promises, and the "potential" of moving to the first team (enter video clip of Rudy getting to dress and lead the team out of the tunnel) than I do kids that actually do. I honestly think they should fade away, and if a player is being recruited with the promise of a reserve team spot, I would encourage them to rethink their recruitment, and refocus on programs where they can/are considered for a true first team roster spot. Regardless of level (D1, D3, etc) the priority of any athlete is to find a place they can potentially play, and even better, play in meaningful games. A college soccer or bust approach, especially when applied to reserve teams is more times than not a bust. I think very similar to a kid with a D1 or bust mindset that ends up being the 5th GK on a mid major program. To each their own, but again, reserve teams seem to serve the coach and program, and more times than not, lead to disappointment for the player.
This is the unfortunate truth. JV/reserve teams are viewed purely as "numbers" from the University's prospective.
One thing that I would suggest for players and parents who are navigating this process is to ask the coach for specifics. If they have been coaching for 3-4 years in the program, you can see if the numbers match the pitch that they are giving in the recruiting process.
For example:
-How many JV/reserve players have earned a spot with the first team?
-How many of these players have earned a spot in the rotation?
-How many of these players have become starters/key players for the first team?
Ask the coach for the names of these players and ask those guys questions about their experience (how it has aligned with what they were told in the recruiting process, how they worked their way up to the first team, what it means to be called up during a season, dynamics between the teams, how often the JV/reserves are being evaluated by the HC, etc.). If the coach struggles to name anybody on the current roster who fits the criteria, it's a good indication that the path they are outlining might not really exist.
Something else to look for (although it will require more homework) is to see how playing time is divided between returners vs. newcomers. At the end of the day, playing time is finite wherever you go. Take a closer look to see how the coach's actions match his words.
For example:
RETURNERS (85%)
-50% returning starters
-20% returning first-team squad players
-15% JV/reserve players
NEWCOMERS (15%)
-15% incoming Freshmen
-0% transfers
In this case, maybe there is a path for players to work their way into the rotation.
Compare this to the following:
RETURNERS (45%)
-40% returning starters
-5% returning first-team squad players
-0% JV/reserve players
NEWCOMERS (55%)
-25% incoming Freshmen
-30% transfers
It's great to hear a coach tell a player about how they can work hard and earn an opportunity to play at the first team level. But if that first team opportunity doesn't come until their Senior season (if ever) with little/no chance of getting minutes, it should at least be taken into consideration before making a deposit.
Hope this helps to paint a better picture so families can make sound decisions rooted in facts rather than anecdotes. An abstract concept with a relatively shallow depth of accessible information needs to be quantified in some way. Hopefully these numbers can help players assess their outlook in the recruiting process and early in the careers.
From there, it's up to the kid to make the most of their opportunity. But it is difficult to watch so many kids consume these used-car salesmen pitches and end their only college experience with a bitter taste and expensive student loan bill.
I had a conversation with a now former NESCAC men's head coach right before Covid--I think it was around January 2020, but I could be off by a year. This coach, who was a head coach when we talked, mentioned that a few of the schools in the conference had conversations about this exact topic, and that reserve, JV-like games would become a thing. His thinking was around 4-6 games per fall season just to get those end of the bench players some experience and onto the field. Maybe before or after the 'varsity' games if possible (I never saw how that was possible with travel, 2 weekend games, etc). This coach assured me it was going to happen 'next season.' It never got past the conversation stage as far as I can tell based upon conversations I have had with other coaches since, but it was definitely on their minds. Maybe it will be again at some point.
Covid, of course, broke the roster size formulas for many schools. After next season, things should be back to a semblance of normal without super seniors clogging the way for the younger players. Some school bring in too many guys each year. If you look at the recently successful NESCAC schools, they for the most part take a different approach that has obviously worked for them.
Quote from: Soccer BTN on September 19, 2023, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 19, 2023, 08:45:57 AM
From there, it's up to the kid to make the most of their opportunity. But it is difficult to watch so many kids consume these used-car salesmen pitches and end their only college experience with a bitter taste and expensive student loan bill.
Awesome post especially the last paragraph. While every kid would love to play (start or get minutes) for a program out there, there seem to be many programs that stockpile players whether they have a reserve/JV teams or not.
Without even asking the coaches, you can look at the rosters and see how many go from freshman year to sophomore year and so on. Then look at the other years. The ones that don't continue their association with the team look at their minutes. Many have bottom heavy rosters (more freshman and/or sophomores than seniors). That might indicate that the program sheds players whether voluntary or through cuts. You can also do some research on their sites under the "statistics" and see "games played" or "minutes." There you will see how coaches are substituting all year.
Also the reserve/JV structure is not like high school where, in most cases, the HS seniors and juniors get all the minutes. Often college coaches expect freshman to be ready to play or at least be ready for some serious minutes when they arrive. Some coaches will fall in love with that freshman and he'll get more minutes his freshman year than he'll get the rest of his college career. If they aren't getting serious min. by their sophomore year, chances are they are not going to get many their junior and senior year.
Ultimately and what GenerallyInterested point to, is that you and your kid need to focus on the academics and does that school meet that kid's needs. People have said this before on this board, but bares repeating, if a player gets hurt, a coaching change takes place or he never/rarely sees the field, is that player in the best place as a student that will help him get to where he wants post college. Only so many years to play and s/he has the rest of their lives to be set up for. Way, way, way to expensive to send a kid to just play soccer.
One coach who I very much liked and my son loved, pitched his program with the statement, what he does here will affect him for the next 40 years. He obviously meant this positively. For this school, that may have been so in many/some ways for many/some kids.
However, if my son was very good math or wanted a career in engineering, that school, which is often a top ten D3 program is/was not the right school for him. I can go into way more detail. The downsides for my son would have been, though he would have played for 4 years (coach told him that), barring injury, and advanced far in the NCAAs, he would have been in a math program that was not nearly close to other colleges and he/we would have been 4 or 5 times in debt compared to what he is now after he graduated last year. In our case, the 40 year promise would most likely have been negative as he would have had to chase jobs he might not want because of the salary (assuming he could get that) to pay the debt plus having to at least put his life on hold or at least seriously curtail things he is doing now.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on September 19, 2023, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: Soccer BTN on September 19, 2023, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: GenerallyInterested on September 19, 2023, 08:45:57 AM
From there, it's up to the kid to make the most of their opportunity. But it is difficult to watch so many kids consume these used-car salesmen pitches and end their only college experience with a bitter taste and expensive student loan bill.
Awesome post especially the last paragraph. While every kid would love to play (start or get minutes) for a program out there, there seem to be many programs that stockpile players whether they have a reserve/JV teams or not.
Without even asking the coaches, you can look at the rosters and see how many go from freshman year to sophomore year and so on. Then look at the other years. The ones that don't continue their association with the team look at their minutes. Many have bottom heavy rosters (more freshman and/or sophomores than seniors). That might indicate that the program sheds players whether voluntary or through cuts. You can also do some research on their sites under the "statistics" and see "games played" or "minutes." There you will see how coaches are substituting all year.
Also the reserve/JV structure is not like high school where, in most cases, the HS seniors and juniors get all the minutes. Often college coaches expect freshman to be ready to play or at least be ready for some serious minutes when they arrive. Some coaches will fall in love with that freshman and he'll get more minutes his freshman year than he'll get the rest of his college career. If they aren't getting serious min. by their sophomore year, chances are they are not going to get many their junior and senior year.
Ultimately and what GenerallyInterested point to, is that you and your kid need to focus on the academics and does that school meet that kid's needs. People have said this before on this board, but bares repeating, if a player gets hurt, a coaching change takes place or he never/rarely sees the field, is that player in the best place as a student that will help him get to where he wants post college. Only so many years to play and s/he has the rest of their lives to be set up for. Way, way, way to expensive to send a kid to just play soccer.
One coach who I very much liked and my son loved, pitched his program with the statement, what he does here will affect him for the next 40 years. He obviously meant this positively. For this school, that may have been so in many/some ways for many/some kids.
However, if my son was very good math or wanted a career in engineering, that school, which is often a top ten D3 program is/was not the right school for him. I can go into way more detail. The downsides for my son would have been, though he would have played for 4 years (coach told him that), barring injury, and advanced far in the NCAAs, he would have been in a math program that was not nearly close to other colleges and he/we would have been 4 or 5 times in debt compared to what he is now after he graduated last year. In our case, the 40 year promise would most likely have been negative as he would have had to chase jobs he might not want because of the salary (assuming he could get that) to pay the debt plus having to at least put his life on hold or at least seriously curtail things he is doing now.
Very good stuff. My son is currently a sophomore at a school where he loves the school and the academic program he is in. However, he has seen his playing time decrease from 38 minutes a game to 15 minutes a game in his second season. It's a tough situation and he is probably going to end up calling it a career at the end of this fall campaign.
The coach is loyal to a 5th year guy who came back one week into fall camp at the winger spot my son would have stepped up at.
The advice on going to a school for the academics and not the soccer is very sound advice.
I just read this transcript of an interview (https://discovercollegesoccer.com/john-carroll-university-mens-soccer-coach-dejan-mladenovic/)on Discovercollegesoccer.com with John Carroll coach Dejan Mladenovic and a question came up JCU having a reserve squad. I thought the coach's answer about why JCU has a reserve squad and why it does not was interesting for a variety of reasons:
QuoteMatt: Well, let's, uh, let's talk a little bit more about the, about the season. Um, and I guess we'll go back a little bit to, to the recruiting side of things, but in terms of your roster, as you mentioned reserves, is there a roster size you're trying to hit? Do you have two teams? What does that look like?
Coach: Yeah.
So we are definitely one roster that plays two schedules. I think that's a big common misconception about how we do things at JCU. Everyone trains together. Everyone's together. Pretty much all the time, uh, until game day where we roster guys in different games. So everyone is eligible to play in either game.
It's just a matter of what game they get rostered in. And that certainly changes throughout the season. Guys get moved up and down. Uh, there's, there's constant opportunity to move up. Uh, and there's definitely situations where guys get moved down, um, if they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing.
But the way we look at it is it's kind of like a, Professional soccer set up in the sense that we want to play our varsity games. You know, I'll use a real example, Wednesdays, and we'll look at who plays a lot of minutes in those games. So [00:16:30] let's say it's a Wednesday night game at 7 PM. And there's 15 guys that play in that game that play 40, 50, 60 minutes, something of that nature.
We're obviously not going to roster those guys the following day. Those guys will do a region in the morning and then a lift in the afternoon. And then we'll roster the next 18, 20, 22 guys for the reserve game on Thursday and get those guys minutes as well. And then now we're kind of doubling down on the amount of guys who are getting minutes week in and week out.
Now, um, I think a lot of people try to use this against us in recruiting, or at least I'm told that all the time, here's the reality. Um, there's two reasons why most coaches don't do this. And this is why we do this. One is you do not get a bigger salary as a head coach to do this. So I'm not getting, uh, 100 a head of every kid you bring in.
If anything, our administration doesn't understand. Why we, we bring all these players in, um, especially when they understand how much extra work that really is. We know it's right for the players, so we do it. Uh, the secondary piece is that you do not get a bigger budget as well. Um, and we need to make our budget work for all of these games.
And you're kind of adding a game a week in theory, you know, to, so that that costs money. Um, and that's where usually coaches don't do that. But they seem to love to bring that up when they're recruiting against John Carroll. And I love when they do, cause that's when I can bring up this topic. Um, but, but the reality and the bottom line is we do it cause we know it's right for our players and they have an opportunity to get game minutes week in and week out.
If they [00:18:00] don't, um, if you're not one of those 15 guys getting regular minutes, um, you know, at the varsity level, what are the other 15 guys doing on the team the rest of the week? Maybe training once or twice a week. Um, that's not a real opportunity to get better. So that's why we do it. Uh, yes, it's a lot of work.
Yes. It's a lot of extra stuff that, um, you don't plan on in a, in a normal season, but, um, this is probably year 12 or 13 that we've added this system. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we've had the kind of success we've had, especially the last decade. Because of the development for the players and, um, the opportunities provided them.
A few reactions:
1. It's useful to note everyone trains together. If everyone is training together, it's not much different than a travel roster, especially if it really is fluid. That makes it feel inclusive.
2. It was interesting to hear the coach's response to the negative recruiting - effectively saying other coaches don't do this because they don't get paid extra for the larger rosters or extra work and the cost to the program. Seems to me that cuts both ways. On the one hand - good for the coach for doing it because it's the right thing to do when you have a big roster so everyone you recruit or accept for your team gets some attention and playing experience. On the other hand - not so good for the school if they don't allocate more budget to a team with a bigger roster full of tuition-paying students.
3. I suspect that the coach's response to the negative recruiting isn't quite right at many schools with reserve teams. In other words, whether or not the coach of a team with a reserve squad gets extra salary or budget, I would be surprised if most soccer teams do it without the school actually requiring or incentivizing it because it means more tuition paying students. Hard to believe JCU really asks him why are you doing it, but I think a lot of small DIII schools need all the extra students they can scrounge up these days and the coaches who have those reserve teams do so because they probably negotiate with their schools to give them extra assistants and budget to make it manageable.
4. I don't know whether it's better or worse from the experience of the student to be an underfunded reserve team because the coach might want to use those players to motivate the first teamers or to guard against injuries or a well-funded reserve team because the school wants more tuition-paying students, but it's worth asking that question when you are considering a school with a reserve team.
5. Probably the best situation is to have transparency about a player's minutes for the reserve team and the senior team in a given year. If you can see that, then you will know a lot about whether the roster is really fluid in-season and whether it is fluid from season to season (e.g., if the reserve team is likely a freshman team and people graduate to the senior team).