I am someone who definitely buys that D3 soccer is closer to D1 soccer than most other D3 versus D1 comparisons. That said, imo how close has been exaggerated. To be clear, I'm not talking about D3 players who could sit on a D1 bench as a walk-on or semi-walk-on. The threshold should be D3 players who would regularly play (starters and consistent subs) and have some impact on a D1 team, and not just for the very bottom 30-40 D1 programs. Imo, there are some that could but not many...maybe 2-3 dozen out of hundreds and hundreds...and certainly not the percentages some have suggested.
Let's consider two very prominent success examples familiar to most. Hector Gomez is at middling mid-major Cleveland State. He's played in all three games with real minutes (47, 50, 31) but NO starts. He has yet to score or earn an assist. A 1st team AA at OWU last year Hector would quite credibly be in the conversation for D3 NPOY.
Speaking of D3 NPOYs, German Giammattei is indeed at Maryland, one of the premier D1 programs. He's doing quite well with 3 starts in 4 games played. Minutes in order so far are 57, 54, 42, and 25. He came on as a sub in his most recent contest versus Virginia with a significant reduction in minutes but he did get his first goal and first assist of the young season.
So these are legit examples of guys who are definitely making an impact but neither looks on track for All-Conference or AA-type honors. And both were at the very tippy-top of D3.
Would love for those with knowledge of other D3 guys making the move to D1 over the past 5 or years and detailing what happened for them.
I also was thinking about the D1 claims while watching some of the elite D3 teams over the past several days. I had zero confusion about whether they were playing at a D3 or D1 level. The speed of play and amount of time on the ball for D1 are significantly different than higher-end D3.
From Maryland website...
One of the most accomplished players in Division III men's soccer history, Giammattei is the only D-III player to ever win consecutive USC National Player of the Year honors and just the second to win it twice overall...helped the Mammoths to consecutive national championship game appearances...two-time first-team All-American...started 60 matches in his career, totaling 45 goals and 12 assists...served as a captain in the 2021 campaign and scored 12 goals and 4 assists en route to USC National Player of the Year honors...named a first-team All-American, first-team All-Region and first-team All-NESCAC...voted the D3Soccer.com Forward of the Year...had a historic sophomore campaign in 2019, scoring 26 goals and adding five assists...tied the NESCAC single season scoring record and set the Amherst single season scoring and points record...was the NESCAC Rookie of the Year after tallying seven goals and three assists as a freshman...in his three-year career, the Mammoths went 50-10-5 overall and 21-5-4 in conference games
https://umterps.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/german-giammattei/10433
North Park has had three D3-to-D1 players within the past half-dozen years. The first was CB Ricky Pimentel. After a year at NPU he transferred seven miles south to Illinois-Chicago. As a scholarship player at UIC in 2016 he started three games for the Flames and came off of the bench in a handful of others. Two of those starts, against Northwestern and Valparaiso, saw him play the entire 90 minutes. UIC went on to finish a game above .500 that season. He missed North Park, so he transferred back the next season and eventually became a United Soccer Coaches All-American pick and the CCIW Defensive Player of the Year, and was a cornerstone of the Vikings' 2017 national runner-up squad.
Gustav Ericsson, who was a standout freshman midfielder on that 2017 team, transferred to San Diego and was on scholarship for the Toreros as a sophomore in 2018. He appeared in 18 contests for USD and made eight starts, and assisted on the game-winning goal at Gonzaga. The Toreros finished the season 7-7-5. Then, as Pimentel had before him, Gustav transferred back to North Park, where he went on to be named a 2021 d3soccer.com All-American and last season's CCIW DPOY. He's now serving as a GA for the Vikings while he finishes up his master's degree.
Jesse Anamoo, who was a CCIW first-teamer for North Park last season as a freshman striker, transferred to Santa Clara this summer. He scored the first goal of the year this season for the Broncos, albeit in an exhibition game against Sacramento State. He has started SCU's first two games of the regular season, and then came off of the bench in the third that the Broncos have played to date, although he has yet to register a point.
(When Jesse said goodbye to his Vikings teammates last spring, Gustav said, "See you back here next year." ;) )
Thanks, Greg. I was thinking there had been at least 2-3 from North Park.
James Hoover was at John Carroll last year as a freshman and transferred to Cleveland State over the summer. Played in 22 games last year, starting 10 of them, and finished with 6 goals and 3 assists. He has played just 5 minutes for CSU this year so far in their first 4 games.
Quote from: oacalum on September 07, 2022, 05:03:04 PM
James Hoover was at John Carroll last year as a freshman and transferred to Cleveland State over the summer. Played in 22 games last year, starting 10 of them, and finished with 6 goals and 3 assists. He has played just 5 minutes for CSU this year so far in their first 4 games.
Thanks for chiming in.
Obviously don't know what may have factored into his decision, but a review of roster gives an idea what he's up against. I counted 7 D1 transfers...mostly from top 15-20 programs...Pittsburgh, Akron x2, Indiana, Kentucky, Bowling Green, Presbyterian. Also 3 D2 transfers and 7 internationals (Germany x3, Spain, Serbia, Macedonia, Canada).
Pat Agyemang lead URI in scoring after having 2 brilliant years at ECSU
Oladayo Thomas from Gettysburg to Santa Clara.
2018 - Centennial Conference Rookie of the Year when he scored eight goals.
2019 - Led the Centennial Conference with 15 goals including eight game-winners.
@ Santa Clara
2020 - Honorable Mention All-WCC - led the team with 4 goals
2021 - First Team All-WCC & United Soccer Coaches All-West Region First Team - led conference with 9 goals and 8 assists
2022 - Started 1 of 3 games thus far. 0 goals, 11 shots
@ECSUalum and @Ejay...thanks for adding Agyemang and Thomas. Looks like their moves definitely worked out for them. Agyemang has played very little so far this year so I assume he's dealing with an injury of some sort. Can either of you provide some backstory on these guys? I'm curious how they ended up at ECSU and Gettysburg. Were they lightly recruited or unknown prior to college? Did they actively choose those schools or more so sort of fell into them? Did they initially reject legit D1 offers to start out D3? ECSU to URI feels a little more straightforward while Gettysburg to Santa Clara is a huge move.
1 word.
Acclimation.
There are LEVELS to football.
Despite those levels, if a straight up D1 player plays in D3 for 2 years out of HS, it will take him time to acclimate to the highte pace.
Diego Maradona took time to get right in Serie A and Napoli because at the time the football, good football was being played in Italy not Spain.
Now the gap is definitely there (generally speaking) but it is not as big as some people think.
The gap between D1 and D3 is not MLS to Prem it is more League 1 v Prem to be honest.
Also, we know D3 kids going to D1 and maintaining, while I have seen many D1 kids come to lowly D3 and struggle, or would have struggled more had coaches not given them the benefit of the doubt due to pedigree.
It is a player by player, case by case analysis, but this gap is not as big as people think.
Here ya go...not 100% sure this is GG based on jersey numbers but fits written description of play....and in an all important tell Max Clivio of Tufts "liked" it. This deep dive level journalism does not come cheap.
https://twitter.com/MarylandMSoccer/status/1567201751526162433?t=iIEnaUDcDk30d-yUISyEVA&s=19
Jesse Anamoo scored his first for Santa Clara last night.
https://twitter.com/SCUBroncoSoccer/status/1568483620293320704?t=aLQwSZRH0jcw3BciJC-eTA&s=19
I'm actually more interested in the players who move from D1 to D3. I'm sure they were all excited in HS to talk about their D1 commitment, but now that they're in D3, how are the doing? Dominating? Role player?
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2022, 02:07:29 PM
@ECSUalum and @Ejay...thanks for adding Agyemang and Thomas. Looks like their moves definitely worked out for them. Agyemang has played very little so far this year so I assume he's dealing with an injury of some sort. Can either of you provide some backstory on these guys? I'm curious how they ended up at ECSU and Gettysburg. Were they lightly recruited or unknown prior to college? Did they actively choose those schools or more so sort of fell into them? Did they initially reject legit D1 offers to start out D3? ECSU to URI feels a little more straightforward while Gettysburg to Santa Clara is a huge move.
ECSU Stats
Scoring Statistics
Scoring Statistics
Season GP GS G A PTS SH SH%SOG SOG% GW PK-ATT MIN
2018 19 18 9 3 21 43 0.209 26 0.605 4 0-0 1015
2019 20 20 21 7 49 86 0.244 58 0.674 6 1-1 1267
Total 39 38 30 10 70 129 0.233 84 0.651 10 1-1 2282
Biography
2018: LEC Rookie of the Year...LEC First-Team...3x LEC Rookie of the Week on Oct. 28th, Oct. 1st, and Sept. 17th...appeared in 19 games, 18 as a starter...lead the team with 9 goals and 21 points and contributing 3 assists... points while averaging 53.4 minutes per game...in LEC regular season, appeared in 8 games, 7 as a starter...scoring 4 goals and 1 assist for 9 points...had a season high of 5 points, 2 goals, and 1 assist against two different teams...ranked 4th in the LEC for goals...
High School:played soccer and ran indoor track all four years... played volleyball for three years... was a varsity starter in soccer for two years, indoor track for three years and volleyball for three years... Named all conference in the 2017 soccer season... named all state in indoor track (2017-2018)... named all state in volleyball in his senior year...helped beat hillhouse in state tournament by scoring two goals and had one assist.. helped volleyball team make it to semi-finals... made it to the New England championship in indoor track...was named captain of soccer team... contributed 17 goals and 12 assists in his senior year soccer season.. helped senior year soccer team place 2nd in the conference and 8th in the state.
PERSONAL: born Patrick K. Agyemang November 7, 2000... Parents: Emelia and Patriac... Siblings: Enoch, Emmanuel... Major: Health Science... Career Objectives: Physical Therapy/Nurse... Residence: East Hartford, CT...
URI info
Career Honors & Awards
2022 Atlantic 10 Preseason All-Conference Team
2022 United Soccer Coaches Division I Players to Watch List
2021 Atlantic 10 All-Conference First Team
2021 Atlantic 10 All-Championship Team
2x College Soccer News National Team of the Week (Sept. 21, 2021; Nov. 8, 2021)
TopDrawerSoccer National Team of the Week (Sept. 21, 2021)
2x Atlantic 10 Player of the Week (Sept. 20, 2021; Oct. 25, 2021)
2021 (Redshirt Junior)
Led the team in goals (10), assists (6) and total points (26).
Scored his first goal of the season in URI's 2-0 win over Central Connecticut.
Scored an 88th-minute equalizer in Rhody's 1-1 double-overtime draw with Providence.
Assisted on Isak Oystese's game-winning goal at Merrimack.
Recorded a hat trick, scoring all three Rhody goals in a 3-1 victory over Brown
Picked up an assist in URI's double-overtime win against #22 VCU.
Had an assist at UAlbany.
Scored in a win over St. Bonaventure.
Recorded a goal and an assist in URI's win over La Salle.
Scored URI's only goal of the game at #4 Saint Louis.
Registered two goals and an assist to lead Rhode Island to a 3-1 win over Davidson in the A-10 Quarterfinals.
Assisted on the lone goal of the game for the Rams in a 2-1 A-10 semifinal loss to Duquesne
Lol @ECSU....I can find all that. You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
Lol @ECSU....I can find all that. You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.
Sort of an obnoxious reply
Sorry I bored you with my response!!!
Your questions can only be answered by Patrick, ECSU Coach Devito and or URI Coach Garreth Elliot, so frankly they were silly questions to ask in the first place! ::)
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2022, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
Lol @ECSU....I can find all that. You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.
Sort of an obnoxious reply
Sorry I bored you with my response!!!
Your questions can only be answered by Patrick, ECSU Coach Devito and or URI Coach Garreth Elliot, so frankly they were silly questions to ask in the first place! ::)
It was perfectly fine to say you had no clue about the answers. And no, while I certainly can be obnoxious, the questions were not silly.
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 07:55:38 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2022, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
Lol @ECSU....I can find all that. You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.
Sort of an obnoxious reply
Sorry I bored you with my response!!!
Your questions can only be answered by Patrick, ECSU Coach Devito and or URI Coach Garreth Elliot, so frankly they were silly questions to ask in the first place! ::)
It was perfectly fine to say you had no clue about the answers. And no, while I certainly can be obnoxious, the questions were not silly.
Yeah silly to post on this threat as nobody except the above mentioned people could supply the answers on Pat. So write a letter to Pat, Greg and Garreth and you will likely get a correct answer! BTW Pat is currently playing in the game vs UConn, but I guess you already knew that!
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2022, 08:03:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 07:55:38 PM
Quote from: ECSUalum on September 10, 2022, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 03:56:47 PM
Lol @ECSU....I can find all that. You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.
Sort of an obnoxious reply
Sorry I bored you with my response!!!
Your questions can only be answered by Patrick, ECSU Coach Devito and or URI Coach Garreth Elliot, so frankly they were silly questions to ask in the first place! ::)
It was perfectly fine to say you had no clue about the answers. And no, while I certainly can be obnoxious, the questions were not silly.
Yeah silly to post on this threat as nobody except the above mentioned people could supply the answers on Pat. So write a letter to Pat, Greg and Garreth and you will likely get a correct answer! BTW Pat is currently playing in the game vs UConn
Look, I posted a topic, and you and @Ejay both responded with great examples of guys who played D3 who have and/or are exceling at D1. I thanked you and I asked you very specific questions. You could have simply told me the questions were silly from the jump. The questions were natural questions as part of the discussion. You completely avoided them. That's fine that you don't know. Suggesting that someone write a letter to find out is asinine. Do you have any opinion on why he left ECSU? And btw, based on your posting what's on the website it seems very possible he was a late bloomer who didn't become the player he is until he was at ECSU...so seems very possible he simply wasn't a D1 candidate as a junior and senior in HS. And maybe he grew 6 inches and gained 45 lbs. He didn't start until his junior year in high school. And maybe he never played club soccer. I'm sure there is a story that makes complete sense and I imagine there are more than the 3 people you cited on the planet who have some insight about it...or maybe it's a closely held secret.
And you wonder why no one posts on this board anymore lol
This D3 soccer thread is not just about you!! I CUT and PASTED the info thinking other people reading on the topic might be interested in Patrick's bio and game stats for both ECSU and URI and would not have to go to the two web sites to obtain the info! So chill out your questions are not THAT important!!
I am now sorry I responded in the first place! End of conversation
Quote from: paclassic89 on September 10, 2022, 08:24:41 PM
And you wonder why no one posts on this board anymore lol
Sorry, paclassics. Please do not give me or anyone else that much power. I'm suffering from heat stroke.
And ECSU, thank you for posting what you posted. My apologies.
Hector Gomez scored his first goal for Cleveland State last night in a 2-0 win over the Bonnies of St. Bonaventure. Played 69 minutes.
This is an interesting bit on the Allure of D1 soccer.
Chris Matejka of Ohio Northern University (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4LtqaDJYzE)
This isn't exactly responsive to the original prompt, but people tend to wonder why D3 starters transfer to D1 when playing time isn't guaranteed. Here are a few reasons I have heard over the years (that apply in normal years, which is different than the current moment when there are more grad transfers to use a student's covid year):
1. Want to experience more of an official spring season and get closer to playing year-round
2. Want to be challenged. It's never ideal for your development and it can be less interesting if you're the best player on your team and know you'll start regardless
3. Don't want to have regrets because you didn't give it a try.
4. Scholarship opportunities
5. Increase your chances of going pro (which is a pipe dream for most players, but a dream nonetheless)
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2022, 08:35:54 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on September 10, 2022, 08:24:41 PM
And you wonder why no one posts on this board anymore lol
Sorry, paclassics. Please do not give me or anyone else that much power. I'm suffering from heat stroke.
And ECSU, thank you for posting what you posted. My apologies.
Not for nothing, and not to dredge this back up -- seems properly quashed -- but I feel like traffic is pretty good these days? I mean, there's a natural in- and out-flow of posters as their kids matriculate or whatever, but if I look at the "new" posts when I stop in on a given morning in Sept, I'm looking at over a dozen threads with continuing conversations.
i've watched boards die. This place is not, in any way, dying.
I have been thinking about this topic a fair bit and have had skin in the game. The one thing I would say is that at the end of four years, a D1 player has undertaken much more training than a D3, that's the nature of the system, so I reckon, by the end of it the gap is wider than at the start. That also works in reverse on the education side, less missed classes, requirements for accommodation etc. Talking to people here (not just Mammoths) it's clear that many boys in D3 get D1 offers or at least have serious conversations with those schools, but choose D3. The one thing I do know is that every minute spent on soccer is one less spent on education and really, that's what our sons are there for. If the choice is becoming a regular at a bottom half ranked D1 where the academics may be only so so, or getting a superior education at a D3 school AND still playing, is the choice really so hard?
We all know the reality even for players drafted to MLS, they will get one season on average and that will be that. I am hoping my son has a 30 year career doing whatever he chooses, knowing that like all of our sons and daughters here, that they are being given a wonderful platform to do so AND still get to take their soccer seriously and enjoy being part of quality team environments.
This is a funny thread... I played D3, obviously new people that went a variety of directions in high school, but I think my views on the levels of soccer were equally or more influenced by the summer team I played on. We had a mix of D3 and D1 players with 1-2 over performing high schoolers. 1 player went on to play lower level pro in US, one went on to play in MLS, and player who practiced with us a couple times you can catch most Saturday morning on Peacock.
It's hard to describe the different between players aggregate levels. But generally the top of D3 lives somewhere between the bottom and middle of D1 - the title contenders, the true 1-2 best teams in the country, are more like middle, the teams that are competitive in the tournament are bottom, but in general I think the difference between those two sets is not big - it's 1-2 difference makers and slightly better depth. At the individual level, you do get a wider range and less depth at the D3 level. Most tournament teams with a chance at a run have at least like 1-3 players that could be solid contributors for mid tier D1 teams, athletic, technical players with good soccer minds and well rounded games. The rest of the rosters have good but flawed players - maybe just not athletic or big enough, maybe a good defensive CB who's distribution never developed beyond simple passing and whacked balls, etc.
There is a pretty solid jump from mid level D1 to top level D1 though. Top level D1 programs have a sprinkling out truly outstanding players who will have a good chance to go pro and play at a different level, and the rest of their team is usually compromised of players in line with the best players from the mid tier programs.
So to summarize, the tiers I think are:
-good D3 team
-elite D3 team/mid tier D1 team
-elite D1 team
At every level, most contributing players would be top level players at the lower tier, and there are a couple players who could make the jump to the next level and fit right in. When you throw all these players together into a roster, you'll generally still get reasonably competitive games most of the time between teams 1 tier apart. I'm also basically just talking about contributing players, not the 25th guy on the roster whose talent level can vary a lot more.
And to take it a bit further for fun (even more speculation now than before) - above D1 is lower tier USA pro, which is starting to get pretty good (USL championship). A tier above that is MLS. A tier above MLS is what I think of as the second tier of euro leagues. And above them are the top 5 leagues (the exact tiers above MLS are not clear to me tbh). Anyways, as a great tweet said recently - you can give Harry Maguire all the **** you want, if you stepped onto a field with him he'd be no different then prime Ronaldinho to you.
Finally someone gets it.
There is LEVELS to football.
I try to stay away from controversial topics... I got negative Karma'd a while back because I said maybe squad sizes have gotten too big.
I do agree with almost everything you said. The levels here is not Basketball/"American" football.
There are players I played with in college who easily could have gone to and excelled at the D1 level. One who got NPOY and 2 or three more who should have gotten it. Having those gius on your team, the speed of play/practice improves tremendously.
Back then we were maybe in the higher level of D3 with teams like Wheaton, who I played against a nd know for sure had a few D1 strikers in the late 90s.
Levels to football.
If you are at a good D1 team playing things will happen in .7 seconds instead of 1 second in D3.
4 years of playing and getting ACCLIMATED at that level is what makes the D1 teams better.
Similarly, at elite D3 schools, you are practicing with boys that do things at .8 seconds while the rest of the division are doing it at 1 second.
That is the difference.
The two most important things in soccer was, is and will always be TIME and SPACE.
Better teams manipulate the space in less time.
That is the difference.
Gap is not that big and comparing elite D3 teams, might getsmaller.
This is a super interesting thread. I believe another huge contributing factor in the levels discussion is simply how much time is dedicated to improvement and how much of a priority soccer is once at school. I'm aware that at some D3 schools players consistently miss practice (with coaches approval), at times weekly, to attend class. The compromise comes at the expense of soccer, not the class. It may be frowned upon by the coach but it is completely accepted. Also, once the season ends the focus/workouts are much less intentional, organized and developmental. The time spent competing and getting better is less and the priority is less. What I also find interesting is how much "fit to system" plays into the levels discussion. My sons team has numerous, legit players with D1 offers (he plays D3) and D1 talent, size, etc. that because of fit to system really don't get much time.
Completely agree with @hiyasoccer's take on things. He articulated it far better than I could. My son played on teams in high school and usl2 that had kids who went to Stanford, Duke, Georgetown, Michigan, Maryland, among others. Those kids were head and shoulders above everyone else on the team. Elite d1 is miles from d3. Mediocre d1, on the other hand . . .
Quote from: Saint of Old on September 16, 2022, 07:17:07 AM
Levels to football.
If you are at a good D1 team playing things will happen in .7 seconds instead of 1 second in D3.
4 years of playing and getting ACCLIMATED at that level is what makes the D1 teams better.
Similarly, at elite D3 schools, you are practicing with boys that do things at .8 seconds while the rest of the division are doing it at 1 second.
That is the difference.
The two most important things in soccer was, is and will always be TIME and SPACE.
Better teams manipulate the space in less time.
That is the difference.
SOL, I agree with all this I think, assuming that by saying four years of acclimating to the increased speed of play makes a difference you would also agree that
in general what makes a kid attractive as a recruit for good to elite D1 is that he can play at the faster pace from the get-go...and, again
in general, is faster, quicker, quicker soccer processing IQ, bigger/stronger, etc. My belief is that there are many D3 playrs at the good to elite D3 level especially who are as skilled and maybe occasionally more skilled than their D1 counterparts, but are a step or two slow by comparison....sort of like a D3 bball player might be as good (or better) at 3 pointers as a D1 kid but the D3 kid wouldn't be able to get his shot off in D1.
I hear you on the karma...still bothers me and I wish it didn't because a little controversy often is great for spurring discussion.
I'm on a karma giving spree.
I don't really like this system. I don't really care much, in the grand scheme, but it just seems to foster pettiness. Agree that, in general, a good faith debate and discussion is what keeps things interesting around here.
On the D3, D1 comparison, I think the gap has somewhat narrowed , this is occurring because the best kids are skipping college for MLS or the European leagues. Calvin Aroh, German Giammattei and two kids at Conn College could walk into any D1 lineup, not to mention quite a few keepers. The quality variation is vast in both leagues,the top D3 programs could compete in the Ivy and Liberty leagues.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on September 16, 2022, 11:22:42 AM
I'm on a karma giving spree.
I don't really like this system. I don't really care much, in the grand scheme, but it just seems to foster pettiness. Agree that, in general, a good faith debate and discussion is what keeps things interesting around here.
Agreed....and when myself (as has happened from time to time) or anyone else goes over the line
OR always complains but rarely contributes anything we should be called on it.
Quote from: camosfan on September 16, 2022, 11:26:32 AM
On the D3, D1 comparison, I think the gap has somewhat narrowed , this is occurring because the best kids are skipping college for MLS or the European leagues. Calvin Aroh, German Giammattei and two kids at Conn College could walk into any D1 lineup, not to mention quite a few keepers. The quality variation is vast in both leagues,the top D3 programs could compete in the Ivy and Liberty leagues.
Do you meant Patriot League (e.g., Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, American etc)? If so, I agree, although I think that's because a player interested in a top academic and soccer program in the Northeast in a small or midsize liberal arts school is going to tend to be looking at schools in the Ivy, Patriot, Nescac, UAA, Centennial, etc conferences (and non-athletes often look at the same group of schools because they have a lot of similarities). I know a number of HS players and current college players who are or were looking at a mix of D1/D3 schools from those conferences. For them, the D1 advantage in terms of spring play and somewhat higher prestige/better facilities was just one consideration in the mix of a number of factors that included academic prestige too.
By contrast, out west, you don't have too many players, if any, who are considering Pomona-Pitzer and Claremont-Mudd-Scripps alongside Stanford, UCLA, and Cal Berkley. For one, the soccer gap is too great, but also the schools are entirely different in size and appeal to different kinds of students even if they all have academic prestige. You do have some players, especially at Redlands, who might have gone to D1 programs like Cal State Northridge or Cal Baptist, or a D2 program like Cal Poly Pomona (to name some schools in some geographic proximity), but choose Redlands because they get similar or better financial aid and can get more personal attention in the classroom and more playing time on the field.
Thanks! meant Patriot
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 16, 2022, 10:06:21 AM
Quote from: Saint of Old on September 16, 2022, 07:17:07 AM
Levels to football.
If you are at a good D1 team playing things will happen in .7 seconds instead of 1 second in D3.
4 years of playing and getting ACCLIMATED at that level is what makes the D1 teams better.
Similarly, at elite D3 schools, you are practicing with boys that do things at .8 seconds while the rest of the division are doing it at 1 second.
That is the difference.
The two most important things in soccer was, is and will always be TIME and SPACE.
Better teams manipulate the space in less time.
That is the difference.
SOL, I agree with all this I think, assuming that by saying four years of acclimating to the increased speed of play makes a difference you would also agree that in general what makes a kid attractive as a recruit for good to elite D1 is that he can play at the faster pace from the get-go...and, again in general, is faster, quicker, quicker soccer processing IQ, bigger/stronger, etc. My belief is that there are many D3 playrs at the good to elite D3 level especially who are as skilled and maybe occasionally more skilled than their D1 counterparts, but are a step or two slow by comparison....sort of like a D3 bball player might be as good (or better) at 3 pointers as a D1 kid but the D3 kid wouldn't be able to get his shot off in D1.
I hear you on the karma...still bothers me and I wish it didn't because a little controversy often is great for spurring discussion.
I agree that the above is what attracts D1 colleges to high school players who think quicker and make decisions at a faster rate.
This is very difficult though as this assessment is happening for kids at 15-17 years old.
Some kids get in at 17, 18,19. Become late bloomers and are already at college institutions before it clicks or clicks to a dangerous degree.
By this time the D3 players are already at school so a bit more difficult to find them out of HS.
Overall, I think a player blossoms or hits a stride at 17 years old (Europe/US/Africa) thiis is just too old for D1 colleges to start their recruiting.
We agree for the most part though that it is brain seed and quickness of play in which the separation lies.
I have a slight disagreement on Basketball though. D1 ballers shoot better than D3 players BY FAR. and have less time to take the shot.
Also, best player I played with in college, who also represented his country at the senior level, at the same time, was 5 foot 6.
That automatically would take you out of any D1 BB conversation, and this kid would have played on any D1 team in the country.
Our game is different where size does not matter, and too much size can actually be a disadvantage in soccer at times.
Hector Gomez started, played 78 min, and got assist in Cleveland St's 1-0 win over Oakland today.
Jesse Anamoo leads Santa Clara with three goals in eight games for the Broncos, who are 3-2-3.
Endicott is traveling to Newton to play BC on 10/24. I thought it was a typo but it appears on both schedules. Joe Calabrese, to his credit, has always been willing to schedule aggressively but this takes it to a whole new level!
Quote from: 4231CenterBack on October 13, 2022, 10:11:59 AM
Endicott is traveling to Newton to play BC on 10/24. I thought it was a typo but it appears on both schedules. Joe Calabrese, to his credit, has always been willing to schedule aggressively but this takes it to a whole new level!
Ah, I thought you beat me to some other news.
Hector Gomez played the full 90 last night for Cleveland State and got the GW in a 1-0 win over Robert Morris.
Looks like
Patrick Agyemang also still doing very well and was put on the Hermann trophy watch list. Curious if there is any relation to the English footballer Patrick Agyemang who played for Wimbledon, Charlton Athletic, Preston North End, QPR, etc and had a couple of caps for Ghanian National Team.
While still mired in misery I took a diversion to check on a couple of our former D3 shining stars who became D1 grad players.
Hector Gomez' campaign ended in the 1st round of the NCAA D1 tournament as Cleveland State lost to Pittsburgh 2-1. Hector played the full 90 and scored an unassisted goal at 88:06 to pull one back for the Vikings before bowing out.
German Giammattei racked up 3 minutes in a NCAA 1st round 5-2 win for Maryland over FDU. GG then registered a DNP in a 2nd round 2-1 defeat to Cornell in Ithaca.
I did recently see a few highlights from some NCAA D1 Tournament games and whilst it's not rocket science (but I do suspect at some of the colleges I saw, rocket science probably isn't offered) it becomes pretty obvious, quite quickly that the pace, skill and efficiency which the ball moves at is different to the top end of D3. Equally, that shouldn't surprise, D1 coaches get access to their players all year round and whether it's playing soccer or learning the violin, it's difficult not to improve and to see a general higher quality, given those circumstances.
I share the misery PN, fortunately the Socceroos have taken things to another level...
I have been wondering about a more specific variant on this question - what is the difference between a D3 and D1 Goalkeeper? Here are some possible differences:
Height It's certainly true on the bottom end of the height chart, since you rarely see a D1 GK listed as below 6'0" unless you are looking at the very high jersey numbers reserved for purely training players, while there are some D3s where all the GKs are sub-6'. As we've seen in the NCAA tournament, though, there are plenty of starting goalkeepers between 6'2" and 6'5" who are playing D3 soccer. They can't all be in D3 because they fell in love with their small liberal arts college campus and academic lifestyle or simply were overlooked by D1 coaches. It's also not true that a 6'0" GK has no chance to start in D1 and has no problem starting in D3. There are definitely some 6'0" starting D1 GKs and, conversely, there are plenty of D3 schools that almost never start a GK there who is that small. From what I have seen over the years, regardless of division, there are some coaches who always want their GKs really tall and others who put height a little farther down the scale of important things to look for in a goalkeeper. Still, on average across D3, the minimum height is lower than at D1.
Athleticism This is often cited as a key distinguishing characteristic for field players and is also probably true for goalkeepers. A D1 GK is more likely to be able to make an acrobatic save than the average D3 keeper. Nevertheless, like height, this too may be overstated for a keeper. Some coaches at all divisions want their keepers to be really smart, steady, great in positioning, who catch everything in their bubble, and view the top corner saves as gravy if they can get them, while others basically only recruit guys who are uber athletic even if they make lots of mistakes in positioning that require the athletic saves because they figure that they can teach them the rest (they can't) or they will pick it up with age and maturity (maybe, but only if they are willing to let them make lost of mistakes that cost them games along the way).
So, if both of these things favor one type of GK over another, but not so much that you would say that they are disqualifying, what are some non-negotiables for a D1 GK that coaches can't find as easily at D3? I think there are two of them:
Command of the box I think this may be one of the biggest differences and why some of the uber tall GKs in D3 are not in D1. So many goals are scored off corners and set plays and margins are so razor thin, that this is really important in modern college GK. It's important for both D3 and D1, but it's harder to do at D1 because the strikers/center backs are bigger, stronger, faster and the delivery on the kicks is better. A GK not only has to either have height or athleticism to get to crosses, but they have to have some physical strength to them and the confidence and decisionmaking ability to know when to do it and the ability to do it with quickness. You probably need to be 6'+ with a good vertical leap given that the strikers/center backs coming in for corners are 6'4", but height and insane hops won't do you much good if you don't have the proper mentality to go get the ball, the intelligence and timing to know when to go and what path to take, and the hands/focus to catch it in traffic. It's an attack mindset. Some D3 GKs have it, but they tend to be smaller guys who would have difficulties against the taller and more physical D1 players. If they are really tall and also great at going after crosses, then they probably could have gone D1.
Ability to organize/start an attack This is a bit more team-specific (since some coaches want their GKs to do more than others), but I think GKs who can really organize and distribute to the right player quickly and undress the opposition in doing so are pretty rare in D3. A lot of D3 GKs say very little or when they do speak it's general catch-phrases or words of encouragement/criticism, rather than being helpful, specific, and timely. Even fewer have that innate knowledge about how to start the attack and where to deliver the ball to do so. There are some who get good at it by the end of their career, but it's so rare for a 16 year-old junior in HS (when keeper recruitment ramps up) to demonstrate that skill at that point that they get snapped up by D1s who are looking for this if they have some of the other traits necessary for a keeper.
The other wildcard in the D1/D3 question for keepers is playing time. I think there are more D1 caliber GKs who go to D3 than D1 caliber field players because it's simply so hard to find any playing time at all as a keeper at D1. That means that I think the gap between D1 and D3 keepers (especially D1 GK backups in the lower half of D1 schools to D3 starters in the upper half of D3 schools) is smaller than it might be for field players. Lots of D3 players and their parents think that's true of field players too, but I really think it's less common there and that gap grows wider for field players over the years whereas it narrows for GKs who play at D3 versus sitting at D1.
People are always asking about D3 players who transferred to D1 and how they did, but it's usually part of other threads about something else. So, I may have missed something like this, but I thought it would be helpful to go back and compare the performance of someone who transferred from a high academic D3 (NESCAC) to a high academic DI (Ivy). That seems to be the most relevant comparison - high D3 soccer to low-ish D1 soccer - and the one where there's the most cross-over in the talent pool because the pool of players who could academically qualify at either is both similar and relatively small.
Jules Oberg (defender):
Williams College
2018 - 18 games played/10 games started
2019 - 17 games played/17 games started (2d team all-NESCAC; 3rd team all Region)
Yale
2021 - 16 games played/12 games started
2022 - 15 games played/15 games started (2d team All-Ivy)
It's a pretty similar story at both places and it looked like the transition was reasonably seamless. Other than possibly helping push Williams over the top to the DIII nat'l championship this year if he had stayed (and perhaps being named a D3 All American), I doubt he had many on field regrets about moving. It certainly wasn't a decline in playing time.
I think at the time he left he suggested he had pro ambitions (his Swedish citizenship would help in Europe, although make things marginally tougher in the US, particularly in MLS with limited int'l slots). It seems like that might not be in cards for him anymore, although someone from Williams may know better.
I'm sure many at NESCAC schools wouldn't be surprised that the level wasn't that different between them and the Ivy league schools (and I think being a defender makes the transition easier than some other positions), but it's still nice to see a real, current day, comparison.
The D3 vs D1 divide is not as great as some would like you to believe. D1 is the "holy grail" simply because of basketball, football and ESPN. As previously mentioned, in the past (before MLS Next, etc) there was a greater divide - not so anymore. Now the top 25 D3 programs could compete with a significant number of D1 programs.
Ultimately is comes down to time commitment and the balance of sport/studies for many players when choosing between D1 and D3. Not that they aren't "good enough" for D1. On every recruiting visit for my son (D1) when he was asked about intended major (pre-med/dentistry) they basically told him in so many words that it wouldn't be possible. He didn't want to sacrifice his career for 4 more years of soccer. He is now playing D3 soccer, balancing coursework/soccer while preparing for a future career of his choosing outside of soccer (just like the other 99% of college soccer athletes).
With that being said he plays over the Summer with many D1/D3 athletes from top programs. anyone in the stands would be hard pressed to pick out the D3 from the D1 players...
https://gowarriorathletics.com/news/2022/12/21/mens-soccer-former-all-america-agyemang-is-12th-pick-of-mls-draft.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1m2OW16BJu6mF-tjkwf8cFE7ykAxhenLyUrEgkGcsWlNDBxDvdffUVGLs
As far as style, which D3 schools have a more possession style of soccer and how does that compare to D1. May sound like an odd question as college at all levels is physical and sometimes more route 1.
Quote from: BigSoccerFan on December 26, 2022, 12:24:00 PM
As far as style, which D3 schools have a more possession style of soccer and how does that compare to D1. May sound like an odd question as college at all levels is physical and sometimes more route 1.
In D3, there are definitely schools that play possession-based soccer, starting with the 2022 national champion Chicago. Others include last year's champion Connecticut College, Hamilton, Kenyon, Messiah, and Mary Washington. Plenty of other schools play it some of the time (usually against weaker teams) even if they aren't quite at the same level as the national contenders, including schools like Pomona-Pitzer, Willamette, and Pacific Lutheran out West.
There are also D1 schools that historically play possession-based soccer, including UCLA and Akron, just to name a couple of teams. Even so-called kick and run teams can play good possession for stretches and most players have the skill to do it really well when they want to (Syracuse this year is an example). If you're looking for a team that will move in that direction, you might check out Bucknell now that former Messiah coach Dave Brandt is running the team.
Washington and Lee also plays possession based soccer.
+k for everyone in this interesting thread.
Quote from: Another Mom on December 26, 2022, 08:15:20 PM
Washington and Lee also plays possession based soccer.
... as does North Park.
W&L
Messiah
Cortland
John Carroll
Ohio Northern
Mary Washington
Connecticut
Chicago
St. Olaf
Gustavus Adolphus
Luther
Redlands
Trinity (TX)
Montclair
Off the top of my head, to one degree or another, I would call these teams possession based.
SC.
Here is the final Poll of 2022. Some teams listed above are obviously on this list as possession based. What would you describe others as?
Possession, kick and run, mixture, other
December 6, 2022
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Final
Through games of Sunday, December 4, 2022
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Chicago (21) 22-0-1 1000 2
2 Stevens 17-1-5 918 4
3 Messiah 20-0-2 848 1
4 Kenyon 19-2-1 825 5
5 Williams 10-2-11 813 —
6 Amherst 14-1-6 771 3
7 Mary Washington 13-5-4 747 25
8 Johns Hopkins 15-1-8 710 13
9 Bowdoin 13-2-5 678 8
10 Gustavus Adolphus 15-2-6 661 10
11 Washington & Lee 16-3-4 555 9
12 Oneonta State 15-3-3 450 19
13 Calvin 17-3-2 430 6
14 North Central (Ill.) 17-1-4 426 7
15 St. Thomas (Tx.) 16-2-3 402 18
16 St. Olaf 15-5-2 397 —
17 North Park 15-3-3 346 15
18 Franklin & Marshall 13-2-5 298 14
19 Ohio Northern 13-4-5 272 —
20 Cortland State 13-6-3 252 —
21 Babson 15-3-3 203 11
22 Catholic 13-4-4 193 —
23 Chris. Newport 13-4-2 189 16
24 Montclair State 15-2-4 165 12
25 St. Lawrence 13-2-6 149 20
Quote from: soccerpapa on December 28, 2022, 09:12:03 AM
Here is the final Poll of 2022. Some teams listed above are obviously on this list as possession based. What would you describe others as?
Possession, kick and run, mixture, other
December 6, 2022
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Final
Through games of Sunday, December 4, 2022
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Chicago (21) 22-0-1 1000 2
2 Stevens 17-1-5 918 4
3 Messiah 20-0-2 848 1
4 Kenyon 19-2-1 825 5
5 Williams 10-2-11 813 —
6 Amherst 14-1-6 771 3
7 Mary Washington 13-5-4 747 25
8 Johns Hopkins 15-1-8 710 13
9 Bowdoin 13-2-5 678 8
10 Gustavus Adolphus 15-2-6 661 10
11 Washington & Lee 16-3-4 555 9
12 Oneonta State 15-3-3 450 19
13 Calvin 17-3-2 430 6
14 North Central (Ill.) 17-1-4 426 7
15 St. Thomas (Tx.) 16-2-3 402 18
16 St. Olaf 15-5-2 397 —
17 North Park 15-3-3 346 15
18 Franklin & Marshall 13-2-5 298 14
19 Ohio Northern 13-4-5 272 —
20 Cortland State 13-6-3 252 —
21 Babson 15-3-3 203 11
22 Catholic 13-4-4 193 —
23 Chris. Newport 13-4-2 189 16
24 Montclair State 15-2-4 165 12
25 St. Lawrence 13-2-6 149 20
Some of the teams on this list (e.g., Amherst and Franklin & Marshall) have a style that isn't quite kick-and-run, but might be better described as kick-and-high press or "anti-possession." The traditional kick and run involves having players with speed who can run past defenders, while this style involves willingly ceding possession to the opponents deep in their territory and attempting to pressure them into mistakes and chaos that lead to goals. Doesn't mean they won't have spells of possession in the opponent's half (Amherst, in particular, is actually pretty good in possession when they choose to do that), it's just that they don't value it for possession's sake. A team like Williams is a bit more of a traditional counter attacking team that sits deep and looks for opportunities to bomb forward.
Most other teams not already identified as pretty strongly possession-based are basically just a healthy mixture. They will try to possess, but will kick forward if that's what the opponents give them. Their style also depends upon the quality of the pitch, the weather conditions, and the quality of the opponents.
Frankly, that's what the best possession-based soccer teams do too. If the opponent hangs back, a possession-based team passes around the defense, with occasional passes to a midfielder who runs back toward the defender, all in an attempt to draw the opponent out of its shell or unbalance them and open up space close to goal where they can put the ball through or over the top to a player running into the space left open (often in front of the opponent's defenders or to the side behind the opponent's midfielder who is pressing the ball). The rigidly possession-based team continues to keep the ball on the ground even after they have drawn the team out, trying for 1-2 one-touch combinations that get by the opponent or constantly re-setting with lateral or back balls because the players have been trained to avoid risking losing possession. Chicago was more of the flexible possession-based team this year, having players up top who could play a hold-up target role or have the speed to outrun some defenders, whereas Conn College seemed a bit more rigid without the options up top to do much more than keep the ball on the ground.
Quote from: Kuiper on December 28, 2022, 12:20:04 PM
Quote from: soccerpapa on December 28, 2022, 09:12:03 AM
Here is the final Poll of 2022. Some teams listed above are obviously on this list as possession based. What would you describe others as?
Possession, kick and run, mixture, other
December 6, 2022
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Final
Through games of Sunday, December 4, 2022
# School (1st Pl. Votes) Record Pts. Prev.
1 Chicago (21) 22-0-1 1000 2
2 Stevens 17-1-5 918 4
3 Messiah 20-0-2 848 1
4 Kenyon 19-2-1 825 5
5 Williams 10-2-11 813 —
6 Amherst 14-1-6 771 3
7 Mary Washington 13-5-4 747 25
8 Johns Hopkins 15-1-8 710 13
9 Bowdoin 13-2-5 678 8
10 Gustavus Adolphus 15-2-6 661 10
11 Washington & Lee 16-3-4 555 9
12 Oneonta State 15-3-3 450 19
13 Calvin 17-3-2 430 6
14 North Central (Ill.) 17-1-4 426 7
15 St. Thomas (Tx.) 16-2-3 402 18
16 St. Olaf 15-5-2 397 —
17 North Park 15-3-3 346 15
18 Franklin & Marshall 13-2-5 298 14
19 Ohio Northern 13-4-5 272 —
20 Cortland State 13-6-3 252 —
21 Babson 15-3-3 203 11
22 Catholic 13-4-4 193 —
23 Chris. Newport 13-4-2 189 16
24 Montclair State 15-2-4 165 12
25 St. Lawrence 13-2-6 149 20
Some of the teams on this list (e.g., Amherst and Franklin & Marshall) have a style that isn't quite kick-and-run, but might be better described as kick-and-high press or "anti-possession." The traditional kick and run involves having players with speed who can run past defenders, while this style involves willingly ceding possession to the opponents deep in their territory and attempting to pressure them into mistakes and chaos that lead to goals. Doesn't mean they won't have spells of possession in the opponent's half (Amherst, in particular, is actually pretty good in possession when they choose to do that), it's just that they don't value it for possession's sake. A team like Williams is a bit more of a traditional counter attacking team that sits deep and looks for opportunities to bomb forward.
Most other teams not already identified as pretty strongly possession-based are basically just a healthy mixture. They will try to possess, but will kick forward if that's what the opponents give them. Their style also depends upon the quality of the pitch, the weather conditions, and the quality of the opponents.
Frankly, that's what the best possession-based soccer teams do too. If the opponent hangs back, a possession-based team passes around the defense, with occasional passes to a midfielder who runs back toward the defender, all in an attempt to draw the opponent out of its shell or unbalance them and open up space close to goal where they can put the ball through or over the top to a player running into the space left open (often in front of the opponent's defenders or to the side behind the opponent's midfielder who is pressing the ball). The rigidly possession-based team continues to keep the ball on the ground even after they have drawn the team out, trying for 1-2 one-touch combinations that get by the opponent or constantly re-setting with lateral or back balls because the players have been trained to avoid risking losing possession. Chicago was more of the flexible possession-based team this year, having players up top who could play a hold-up target role or have the speed to outrun some defenders, whereas Conn College seemed a bit more rigid without the options up top to do much more than keep the ball on the ground.
Great analysis.
I played at a time, (back when we played while the Dinasaur's slept) when Williams was a seriously good attacking team that was very possession based. Same thing for Messiah and most of the quality teams around.
I have heard before that possession is 9/10th of the law. It could also be 9/10 of soccer, but that 1/10 the most important is putting the ball in the net. "Possess and penetrate" used to be the mantra of a team I knew. nothing worse than knocking it around the back line waiting to be picked off by teams who are continually getting better at pressing. The old tune "Dont Mean a Thing if It Aint Got that Swing" applies here. Ball has to be swung from side to side and then walah back to the middle for an opportunity. It is obviously wayyyyy easier said than done, way more. but that is what it takes. On a personal note, I really loved watching Mary Washington team this year, they moved it really well. That team is going to be good for some time to come.
That 1/10th is definitely important! Possession is important, but it's also about effective possession, there are enough professional teams that know how to win with much less than 50pct. When they get the ball, they use it. I watched Chelsea's game against Bournemouth and they kept the ball, but also moved it amazingly quickly, but with a forward emphasis and they back themselves to win it back. It does require an athletic player, I reckon you might be able to carry one maybe, but they need to be doing something pretty special to not derail the team, whether it's passing, scoring or winning the ball.
I would say that Amherst can pass and do like to get behind defences, but will try and get the ball in the box quickly, which does make sense if you want to try and avoid having to contend with too many defenders in the box. It can also give teams a chance to break, which means working hard to win the ball back.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on December 28, 2022, 05:15:12 PM
That 1/10th is definitely important! Possession is important, but it's also about effective possession, there are enough professional teams that know how to win with much less than 50pct. When they get the ball, they use it. I watched Chelsea's game against Bournemouth and they kept the ball, but also moved it amazingly quickly, but with a forward emphasis and they back themselves to win it back. It does require an athletic player, I reckon you might be able to carry one maybe, but they need to be doing something pretty special to not derail the team, whether it's passing, scoring or winning the ball.
I would say that Amherst can pass and do like to get behind defences, but will try and get the ball in the box quickly, which does make sense if you want to try and avoid having to contend with too many defenders in the box. It can also give teams a chance to break, which means working hard to win the ball back.
Unfortunatey for Amherst, more people have heard about their style of play than have watched them play. Amherst actually passes the ball quickly and dangerously through the channels and cause a goal threat.
They have quality players who understand that longball does not mean "I kick and you run" it means "You run and I kick".
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 27, 2022, 01:52:41 PM
W&L
Messiah
Cortland
John Carroll
Ohio Northern
Mary Washington
Connecticut
Chicago
St. Olaf
Gustavus Adolphus
Luther
Redlands
Trinity (TX)
Montclair
Off the top of my head, to one degree or another, I would call these teams possession based.
SC.
I get quiet for a few days and this stuff happens. :D :D
I've kind of groused about Hopkins actually being TOO committed to possession over the years. I think they've turned a corner this year, but I'd put their possession stats probably in the top 10 in the country. If that were a thing tracked at this level. (Unless I'm missing something... not found on the NCAA site.)
ETA - A stat that kind of touches on this: Hopkins was second in the country in Goals Against Average (.405) behind Western Connecticut (.405, but they let in only 9 goals to Hopkins 10, though Hop played 2 more games, so...)
Anyways, it's not universal that possession teams let in fewer goals, but in this specific case I can say that it's REALLY hard to score on the Jays because you have to take one of about 4 or 5 chances you're going to get all game to the bank.
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 29, 2022, 12:35:56 PM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on December 27, 2022, 01:52:41 PM
W&L
Messiah
Cortland
John Carroll
Ohio Northern
Mary Washington
Connecticut
Chicago
St. Olaf
Gustavus Adolphus
Luther
Redlands
Trinity (TX)
Montclair
Off the top of my head, to one degree or another, I would call these teams possession based.
SC.
I get quiet for a few days and this stuff happens. :D :D
I've kind of groused about Hopkins actually being TOO committed to possession over the years. I think they've turned a corner this year, but I'd put their possession stats probably in the top 10 in the country. If that were a thing tracked at this level. (Unless I'm missing something... not found on the NCAA site.)
ETA - A stat that kind of touches on this: Hopkins was second in the country in Goals Against Average (.405) behind Western Connecticut (.405, but they let in only 9 goals to Hopkins 10, though Hop played 2 more games, so...)
Anyways, it's not universal that possession teams let in fewer goals, but in this specific case I can say that it's REALLY hard to score on the Jays because you have to take one of about 4 or 5 chances you're going to get all game to the bank.
Ditto for Messiah. They've certainly had many high level defenders in their best seasons, including this past fall, but overall their philosophy is the reverse of the old adage that the best offense is good defense.
Nice Videos on Pat Agyemang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iLimdMFr3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5hRgmtySI
Quote from: ECSUalum on February 13, 2023, 01:29:11 PM
Nice Videos on Pat Agyemang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iLimdMFr3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5hRgmtySI
He had an interesting take saying the difference between D1 and D3 and he felt he could just show up and win in D3. Interesting as I didn't think the program was overly successful in terms of the national picture.
The program was ranked or received votes, over the last 4 weeks in the 2019 D3 soccer polls and were 17-3 in the LEC, (Agyemang Scoring 21 goals with 7 assists in 2019), so they won a lot of games. Additionally, I remember watching the LEC Tournament final ECSU vs Keene that year during which Keene St essentially mugged Patrick the whole game, (Keene committed 16 fouls, of which 3 were yellow cards in the match), and together with poor officiating Eastern was defeated 1-0 at home.
Quote from: ECSUalum on February 14, 2023, 07:50:38 PM
The program was ranked or received votes, over the last 4 weeks in the 2019 D3 soccer polls and were 17-3 in the LEC, (Agyemang Scoring 21 goals with 7 assists in 2019), so they won a lot of games. Additionally, I remember watching the LEC Tournament final ECSU vs Keene that year during which Keene St essentially mugged Patrick the whole game, (Keene committed 16 fouls, of which 3 were yellow cards in the match), and together with poor officiating Eastern was defeated 1-0 at home.
Understood- maybe just overly defensive for the D3 soccer competition....I'll also beat someone to the punch - 16 fouls and 3 cards - that's a tame Amherst game ;)
Quote from: Newenglander on February 15, 2023, 07:55:09 AM
Quote from: ECSUalum on February 14, 2023, 07:50:38 PM
The program was ranked or received votes, over the last 4 weeks in the 2019 D3 soccer polls and were 17-3 in the LEC, (Agyemang Scoring 21 goals with 7 assists in 2019), so they won a lot of games. Additionally, I remember watching the LEC Tournament final ECSU vs Keene that year during which Keene St essentially mugged Patrick the whole game, (Keene committed 16 fouls, of which 3 were yellow cards in the match), and together with poor officiating Eastern was defeated 1-0 at home.
Understood- maybe just overly defensive for the D3 soccer competition....I'll also beat someone to the punch - 16 fouls and 3 cards - that's a tame Amherst game ;)
Oh Newenglander, it's the offseason, Amhate doesn't need to be an all year round thing. There are people you can see for this. The Mammoths have been super clean in 2023 so far.