They need to think about making all final conference games on the last day of competition start at the same time. The system as it currently stands can be manipulated by teams.
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No, it doesn't. Please explain.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2022, 09:56:33 PM
No, it doesn't. Please explain.
On the final day of conference play with teams fighting for playoff spots, teams can sit back and let a team they prefer advance rather than another. All games on the final day of EPL start at the same time, the same goes for world cup first round.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
Things are getting weird on here.
Quote from: camosfan on October 24, 2022, 10:04:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2022, 09:56:33 PM
No, it doesn't. Please explain.
On the final day of conference play with teams fighting for playoff spots, teams can sit back and let a team they prefer advance rather than another. All games on the final day of EPL start at the same time, the same goes for world cup first round.
Ah, OK. Got it.
There are several problems with your proposal:
1) I'm not sure to whom the word "they" refers in your original post. (That was part of the impetus behind my question-mark emojis.) If you were referring to the NCAA, that organization only controls scheduling for the national tournament. Each individual conference controls the schedule of the h2h competition within that conference. In other words, there's over forty "theys" that you need to persuade.
2) Even within conference scheduling, I know that, in many (if not all) D3 conferences, start times can be adjusted by the two teams in question. This is of major importance, because -- depending upon the league and the schools in question -- facilities and staffing are issues that can affect start times. If you're in the middle of hosting a women's volleyball tournament at the same time that everybody else in the conference is starting the last games of the conference season in men's soccer, you might not have enough game staff to start your men's soccer game because they're working volleyball in the gym. Or if, as is the case for a large number of D3 schools, your football team and your men's soccer team share the same field, you might have to start your soccer game later than other schools because your football game runs long. These sorts of issues are commonplace. Every week of the fall, every year, they affect start times.
3) Weather and field conditions can play a big factor in men's soccer at this time of year. They can make it unfeasible for everybody to start their games at the same time, because there might be a lightning delay or a degraded field that needs fixing in Collegetown at the same time that the weather and the field are both pristine in University City.
There are all sorts of variables at work that make D3 men's soccer so very much unlike EPL or the World Cup that the mind reels.
Something else that you need to consider is that some conference don't have a conference tourney. For example NWC regular season winner gets the automatic bid. They other teams have about a week off with out any games.
Yes, another good point. The UAA is another example of a conference that doesn't have a tourney.
Quote from: camosfan on October 24, 2022, 10:04:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2022, 09:56:33 PM
No, it doesn't. Please explain.
On the final day of conference play with teams fighting for playoff spots, teams can sit back and let a team they prefer advance rather than another. All games on the final day of EPL start at the same time, the same goes for world cup first round.
The chance of a D3 team sitting around and letting another win a conference championship - and very possibly costing themselves the chance to host in the first round, impacting their first-round matchup, or even cheating themselves out of a playoff bid altogether given the vagaries of Pool C selection - is effectively zero.
^^^^^This. Just imagine a team messing around and manipulating their way right out of a Pool C bid.
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2022, 09:22:02 AM
^^^^^This. Just imagine a team messing around and manipulating their way right out of a Pool C bid.
It reminds me of when players in the MLB were betting on their own games (ROSE) you still would have to have a lot of buy in by other players. Especially if they are not in agreement. Coaches would not be able to make it look too obvious by sitting their top players and starting ones that never did during the regular season. If any team would try it now in this day of social media and technology IMO it would be uncovered by many outsiders. Just my thoughts
Quote from: Coach Jeff on October 25, 2022, 11:12:48 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2022, 09:22:02 AM
^^^^^This. Just imagine a team messing around and manipulating their way right out of a Pool C bid.
It reminds me of when players in the MLB were betting on their own games (ROSE) you still would have to have a lot of buy in by other players. Especially if they are not in agreement. Coaches would not be able to make it look too obvious by sitting their top players and starting ones that never did during the regular season. If any team would try it now in this day of social media and technology IMO it would be uncovered by many outsiders. Just my thoughts
I couldn't imagine a coach seeking to tank gamesIt's the time of year to rally the troops - and have the urgency and energy (and confidence) that theoretically its anyone's game.....Lots can happen in single elimination play. Any other strategy has so many chances for backfire....
And even when you have buy-in, those schemes often blow up because too many folks are in the know... Black Sox scandal... Italian match fixing in the 2000s... etc.
(It's why boxing fixes were, and maybe still are, so common and difficult to bust... Only need a couple of people, possibly only one, to pull off. Same reason basketball has seen a lot of scrutiny. A good, involved player can absolutely mess with the spread.)
Hard to believe we now have a whole thread about potential scandal in the NESCAC.
It's also not like if all final regular season conference games kicked off at the same time that teams couldn't 'strategize' (if going to the trouble actually made sense).
Asst coach tracking the other games at same time says to coach....."Hey, Coach, Bates just scored in 85th minute to draw level with Hamilton so now a draw in our game will lock up our spot in the playoffs, so maybe we shouldn't push for a goal in the last five minutes of our game as we might expose ourselves to blowing our own draw and getting eliminated, but maybe we shouldn't rely on that because if Hamilton scores in the last five minutes and we end settling for a draw with Colby we'll also be eliminated."
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 25, 2022, 11:30:56 AM
And even when you have buy-in, those schemes often blow up because too many folks are in the know... Black Sox scandal... Italian match fixing in the 2000s... etc.
(It's why boxing fixes were, and maybe still are, so common and difficult to bust... Only need a couple of people, possibly only one, to pull off. Same reason basketball has seen a lot of scrutiny. A good, involved player can absolutely mess with the spread.)
You seem a reasonable person who follow the game in addition to D3, do you think the rule in FIFA or the other leagues is just overreach or was a reaction to events? Are you aware of the 1978 Worl d Cup game between Argentenia and Peru that prompted the change?
I agree that this issue is not really a concern in D-III soccer, and as such I don't see a need to discuss it at any real length. However, if I understood the original poster correctly, most of the replies seem to be responding to something somewhat different than the concern camosfan presented. If I understood correctly, camosfan did not suggest a team would do something that would potentially jeopardize their own qualification for the conference tournament, nor that they would purposely lose a conference tournament game, but rather that a team, once it is already guaranteed a spot in the playoffs, could purposely throw (lose or tie) a regular season game to help one conference foe make it into the playoffs instead of another (or maybe affect playoff seedings/match-ups).
For example, with all other games already played at any earlier time, Team A takes on Team X in the final regular season game knowing a win or tie gets them the #1 seed and that their opponent will be tied for 8th in the standings with Team Y if they lose and a loss by more than one-goal would give the tie-breaker to Team Y. Team A would prefer to play Team X in the first round because Team Y creates bigger match-up problems for them and is perceived to be the bigger threat as Team X has really cooled off after a good start. Team A takes a 1-0 lead and then doesn't push to increase their lead knowing that a 1-0 win or 1-1 ties gets them the #1 seed and gets them their preferred first round opponent. (And the motivation to want to help one team over another could be all sorts of things--spite/grudge, seeding, etc.)
Now, as rightly pointed out, a team runs the risk of jeopardizing their at-large selection chances if they tie or lose on purpose to manipulate who makes the conference tournament and/or where teams are seeded. But there are always teams that are virtual locks to get an at-large berth for whom that is not really a risk. Again, I personally don't see this as a genuine concern, but as I read through the responses it felt like there was a disconnect from what camosfan actually presented as the concern.
thanks for the insight!
FW, I guess.
Seems to me that the one potential real-life D3 scenario is one that could happen even if they all start of the same time. Let's say Amherst is two full games clear and there is no scenario where they can damage their own spot. Could they play their subs more than they normally would or rest some starters still struggling with injuries? Sure, that could happen and does happen usually professionally, but this scenario I think would be seen as just being smart even if a couple of other teams were impacted by the result. This happens in the NFL and NBA but usually not to get any kind of revenge but just out of pure self-interest. Another way of looking at it...if your team is depending on a set of results out of its control with its fate being determined by the outcome of what other teams do then that's the problem...not untoward manipulation.
I watched two HS teams "arrange" the result of their last game of the regular season because they liked what it would do for their playoff seedings (HS seedings can be kind of whacky). It is done.
Both lost the in the first round of the playoffs...thankfully.
Quote from: Ejay on October 24, 2022, 10:21:13 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gij%C3%B3n
sorry - thanks!
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 25, 2022, 08:21:40 AM
Quote from: camosfan on October 24, 2022, 10:04:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 24, 2022, 09:56:33 PM
No, it doesn't. Please explain.
On the final day of conference play with teams fighting for playoff spots, teams can sit back and let a team they prefer advance rather than another. All games on the final day of EPL start at the same time, the same goes for world cup first round.
The chance of a D3 team sitting around and letting another win a conference championship - and very possibly costing themselves the chance to host in the first round, impacting their first-round matchup, or even cheating themselves out of a playoff bid altogether given the vagaries of Pool C selection - is effectively zero.
Old assistant college coach for a number of years. We were in the amcc in the northeast. Had to attend one coaches meeting before as our representative. The conference had a rule (bet it's still in place) for the conference tournament in the case of cancellation or total weather failure. If the game wasn't able to be played. The automatic bid had to be to the ncaa by that Sunday night. The highest seed got the automatic bid.