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All -

So after the conversation I had with @PaulNewman about programs that should be better than they are, I thought about asking the hive.  You all have insights into leagues/schools that I can't even fathom so...

What I am asking is that you list out schools that you think should be better than they are.  Could be a good team that you think should be better, or a program that has gone through a rough spell and you think should be better.  Not saying they have to be national champions....  Full disclosure is that I will probably do something on this in Around D3 or The New Show and use your  input.

Any questions, reach out.

Thanks in advance.

SC.

I've often thought about this question many times over the years and have even brought it up a few times on the boards.  Schools that come to mind for me, in no particular order (after TCNJ)...

TCNJ - 42-38-12 ('16-21). Great state school in a great soccer state. Pretty campus, fantastic program history, plethora of majors and very strong graduate outcomes (i.e. you're getting a good job).

Denison - 39-39-10. I once heard this school described as a New England school in the Midwest. When Bianco was hired, I told my son this school would be a top 25 program within 3 years.  They're on that cusp, so maybe it's a bit premature to list them now. However that doesn't excuse their record in the last 5 years.

Union - 43-36-4. If you're not good enough to play D1 at Lafayette, Bucknell or Colgate, then Union should be your next stop.

Trinity (CT) - 17-54-5.  I have no idea why Trinity isn't better. I get the gauntlet they have to go through in the NESCAC, but surely you can win more than 3 games a year? I know Hartford isn't a dream location, but the school and facilities are beautiful.

Muhlenberg - 40-38-12. Gettysburg and Washington have found a way to be relevant, so why hasn't Muhlenberg? Is it the field? As discussed on another thread, the field and environment used to be great. They had a great tradition for many years, but that's all in the past.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 09:15:30 AM

Muhlenberg - 40-38-12. Gettysburg and Washington have found a way to be relevant, so why hasn't Muhlenberg? Is it the field? As discussed on another thread, the field and environment used to be great. They had a great tradition for many years, but that's all in the past.

As to Muhlenberg, IMO it has been in part the field (You could also include Haverford as well with its drop off - field is also horrendous).  However, rumor has it, it will have a turf field next year. Also despite recent issues, it is having a decent season with a lot of offense.  Leads the Cent. Conf. with most goals scored and (Sorry Hop) just tied (and could have won) Hopkins 2-2. Stay tuned, they play Gettysburg this weekend to possibly move up in the seeding for conf. championship. They play in the quarters and who knows.

Bates (geographic challenge but incredible school that can pull from all over country)
Colby (same as above and the college in general has been on a tear upwards)
Trinity (CT)
ECSU
Hamilton (prior to this year)
Keene St
Plymouth St
Williams (relative to historical standard and not necessarily this year)


Clark
Gordon
Springfield
Wheaton (MA)


Hobart (too uneven)
Ithaca
RIT
Skidmore (generally decent/good but not great)
Union (up near the very top in the category along with Trinity)


Kean
RUC
TCNJ


Dickinson
Etown
Haverford
Muhlenberg
Salisbury
Scranton
Ursinus
York (PA)


Birmingham-So
Centre
Emory
Roanoke
Rhodes (not withstanding success this year)
Sewanee (see above)


Allegheny
Capital
CMU (consistently solid to good but should be better?)
DePauw
Grove City
Heidelberg
Mt Union (always pretty good but could be better)
Oberlin
Transy (usually solid but could be better?)
Wittenberg
Wooster


Hope
KZoo
Wheaton (Ill)


Carleton
Grinnell
Loras
Macalester
St John's
UW-W
Wartburg


Colorado Coll
Occidental (in general, not necessarily this year0
Southwestern
Whitman
Whitworth

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 27, 2022, 10:13:35 AM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 09:15:30 AM

Muhlenberg - 40-38-12. Gettysburg and Washington have found a way to be relevant, so why hasn't Muhlenberg? Is it the field? As discussed on another thread, the field and environment used to be great. They had a great tradition for many years, but that's all in the past.

As to Muhlenberg, IMO it has been in part the field (You could also include Haverford as well with its drop off - field is also horrendous).  However, rumor has it, it will have a turf field next year. Also despite recent issues, it is having a decent season with a lot of offense.  Leads the Cent. Conf. with most goals scored and (Sorry Hop) just tied (and could have won) Hopkins 2-2. Stay tuned, they play Gettysburg this weekend to possibly move up in the seeding for conf. championship. They play in the quarters and who knows.

Muhlenberg won the CC 5x in a 10 year span in the 90s-00s. Since that time they've been average. Sure they may put together a good year every now again, but nothing sustainable. They're a .500 team and should be consistently better in my opinion.

PN - curious as to your logic on Kean and RUC.

I agree with Muhlenberg and Haverford. Not trying to get too hung up on their respective fields, but particularly Haverford, that field has deteriorated to an embarrassingly low level.

I'll throw a name that rarely gets discussed of late, from the Landmark Conference... Susquehanna. Ten years ago, this team went 18(!)-3-1 and made it out of the first weekend in the NCAA's with wins over Cabrini and Paywall U. before falling to Ohio Northern. This year, they are 2-11-2... Going back to 2017: 26-53-8.

It's a beautiful campus and a decent turf field. They just seem stuck in a rut.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
PN - curious as to your logic on Kean and RUC.

Yeah, I'm no Reg 4/5 expert.  RUC has had a couple of decent years but overall has fallen off from being a 2013 national finalist.

Kean had good year last year and I think made tournament one other year (lost 1st round UMass-Boston 3-0) in past decade but a lot of very mediocre (or worse) years.

Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international.  I would include Swat whose record between 2015 and 2021 is 49-45-15, just about .500, and whose record this year is 6-6-4 with a finish near the bottom of Centennial in sight.   I would also add Pomona whose record since 2015 has been under .500.  Perhaps there should also be a thread for over-achievers.  How does a school like North Park become a bastion for D3 men's soccer--it is certainly not academics or location.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international.  I would include Swat whose record between 2015 and 2021 is 49-45-15, just about .500, and whose record this year is 6-6-4 with a finish near the bottom of Centennial in sight.   I would also add Pomona whose record since 2015 has been under .500.  Perhaps there should also be a thread for over-achievers.  How does a school like North Park become a bastion for D3 men's soccer--it is certainly not academics or location.

That school has 30+ on the roster from Sweden and Denmark, they have some feeder system!   

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 12:05:23 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international.  I would include Swat whose record between 2015 and 2021 is 49-45-15, just about .500, and whose record this year is 6-6-4 with a finish near the bottom of Centennial in sight.   I would also add Pomona whose record since 2015 has been under .500.  Perhaps there should also be a thread for over-achievers.  How does a school like North Park become a bastion for D3 men's soccer--it is certainly not academics or location.

That school has 30+ on the roster from Sweden and Denmark, they have some feeder system!

CUNYAC schools should be better, while the academic programs vary in quality, they are very attractive cost wise.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Quote from: WUPHF on October 27, 2022, 12:18:17 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Amherst!

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
PN - curious as to your logic on Kean and RUC.

Yeah, I'm no Reg 4/5 expert.  RUC has had a couple of decent years but overall has fallen off from being a 2013 national finalist.

Kean had good year last year and I think made tournament one other year (lost 1st round UMass-Boston 3-0) in past decade but a lot of very mediocre (or worse) years.

I don't see the appeal of Kean or RUC. Students looking to stay in-state are better served by TCNJ, Rowan and Montclair. The latter two are historically very good, and the former is on my list for should be good but isn't.  All other NJAC schools can have a good year (or few years) every now again, but I  wouldn't expect them to be consistently strong.

How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 27, 2022, 10:40:00 AM
I agree with Muhlenberg and Haverford. Not trying to get too hung up on their respective fields, but particularly Haverford, that field has deteriorated to an embarrassingly low level.

I'll throw a name that rarely gets discussed of late, from the Landmark Conference... Susquehanna. Ten years ago, this team went 18(!)-3-1 and made it out of the first weekend in the NCAA's with wins over Cabrini and Paywall U. before falling to Ohio Northern. This year, they are 2-11-2... Going back to 2017: 26-53-8.

It's a beautiful campus and a decent turf field. They just seem stuck in a rut.

I agree with Haverford and Swarthmore. Elite institutions that should have a better product consistently. I know there's been a lot of divisiveness between athletes and non-athletes at those schools so maybe that plays into it some?

Susquehanna is a very nice campus and did have a few good years. But to me that's not a reason they should be better. There's not really anything unique about the school that makes it more attractive than many others. Saying they should be better is like saying Randolph-Macon should be better, which also has a beatifiul campus and nice turf field.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 12:54:31 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
PN - curious as to your logic on Kean and RUC.

Yeah, I'm no Reg 4/5 expert.  RUC has had a couple of decent years but overall has fallen off from being a 2013 national finalist.

Kean had good year last year and I think made tournament one other year (lost 1st round UMass-Boston 3-0) in past decade but a lot of very mediocre (or worse) years.

I don't see the appeal of Kean or RUC. Students looking to stay in-state are better served by TCNJ, Rowan and Montclair. The latter two are historically very good, and the former is on my list for should be good but isn't.  All other NJAC schools can have a good year (or few years) every now again, but I  wouldn't expect them to be consistently strong.

Oh, OK, gotcha.

I wasn't including them because of appeal but because of past history.  I think Kean won a national title and had a pretty famous coach.  RUC I believe still has the same coach that got them to prominence.  Messiah barely, barely beat RUC in the 2013 final.  But then again, Loras should have won the semi with RUC imo.  And yes, RUC had some D1 transfers although iirc stud striker Mike Ryan was there as a frosh and maybe was a soph that year.

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I have a kid at Camden and went to the Rowan game this season, I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Swat is a good one.  I've always thought of Swat as just too brutal academically to be truly devoted to a sports team there.  But I've also wondered the same thing about Chicago and obviously they've figured it out.  There are D3s that are stellar academically (NESCACs and others) and then there are D3s that are stellar and brutal, and that's how Swat, Chicago, maybe Carleton, and a few others seem to me.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 01:03:59 PM

Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 27, 2022, 10:40:00 AM
I agree with Muhlenberg and Haverford. Not trying to get too hung up on their respective fields, but particularly Haverford, that field has deteriorated to an embarrassingly low level.

I'll throw a name that rarely gets discussed of late, from the Landmark Conference... Susquehanna. Ten years ago, this team went 18(!)-3-1 and made it out of the first weekend in the NCAA's with wins over Cabrini and Paywall U. before falling to Ohio Northern. This year, they are 2-11-2... Going back to 2017: 26-53-8.

It's a beautiful campus and a decent turf field. They just seem stuck in a rut.

I agree with Haverford and Swarthmore. Elite institutions that should have a better product consistently. I know there's been a lot of divisiveness between athletes and non-athletes at those schools so maybe that plays into it some?

Susquehanna is a very nice campus and did have a few good years. But to me that's not a reason they should be better. There's not really anything unique about the school that makes it more attractive than many others. Saying they should be better is like saying Randolph-Macon should be better, which also has a beatifiul campus and nice turf field.

Valid points, but I guess we should drill down a bit more on how we're filtering these schools. Lots and lots of schools have a crappy or non-existent campus and/or gnarly fields and down-trodden facilities.

In no particular order:

* Location
* Academics
* Specialized School/Study Area
* Field/Athletic Facility
* Student Body Size/Demographics
* Coach (playing style, temperament)
* Roster Size
* Tradition (of winning)

I'm sure there are more... And I doubt many of us are going to sit here and drill down too far on all these fronts.

Vassar and Stevens are two solid academic programs that seems to be making the move in the sport.

B-SC and Berry. There are some D2 and NAIA schools floating around in Alabama and Georgia, but few D1 soccer schools. UAB is the only D1 men's soccer playing school in AL I believe. With no SEC men's soccer, B-SC and Berry are just the type of regional pull, good academic reputation schools that appeal to suburban soccer parents. And there is a lot of good suburban soccer played around here. Strong clubs, strong facilities, strong paid for coaching at the youth level.

Neither Berry or B-SC is bad, both are generally competitive in the SAA, but I feel like there are a lot of athletes down here that could play after h.s. if you could get some coaches in these programs that could convince a few more of these elite kids playing the sport you love in D3 is better than watching SEC football.

Quote from: WUPHF on October 27, 2022, 12:18:17 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

W&L has kids from Estonia, Spain, England,  Zambia and Zimbabwe on it's roster, although there isn't a distinct pipeline to one country


I would put W&L as a team that should be better. They have a lot of talented players, but have seemed shaky, none more so than last night of course. And I am not enough of a soccer expert to understand why so many shots on goal fail to result in a score, but for W&L, they don't.

Quote from: jknezek on October 27, 2022, 01:39:05 PM
B-SC and Berry. There are some D2 and NAIA schools floating around in Alabama and Georgia, but few D1 soccer schools. UAB is the only D1 men's soccer playing school in AL I believe. With no SEC men's soccer, B-SC and Berry are just the type of regional pull, good academic reputation schools that appeal to suburban soccer parents. And there is a lot of good suburban soccer played around here. Strong clubs, strong facilities, strong paid for coaching at the youth level.

Neither Berry or B-SC is bad, both are generally competitive in the SAA, but I feel like there are a lot of athletes down here that could play after h.s. if you could get some coaches in these programs that could convince a few more of these elite kids playing the sport you love in D3 is better than watching SEC football.

There is a very good youth club in Birmingham, saw them at a few showcase tournaments, 2-3 years ago ,South Carolina also has a good team in Charleston area and there is also a solid  one in Tennessee.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 01:12:42 PM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 12:54:31 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 10:54:28 AM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 10:37:34 AM
PN - curious as to your logic on Kean and RUC.

Yeah, I'm no Reg 4/5 expert.  RUC has had a couple of decent years but overall has fallen off from being a 2013 national finalist.

Kean had good year last year and I think made tournament one other year (lost 1st round UMass-Boston 3-0) in past decade but a lot of very mediocre (or worse) years.

I don't see the appeal of Kean or RUC. Students looking to stay in-state are better served by TCNJ, Rowan and Montclair. The latter two are historically very good, and the former is on my list for should be good but isn't.  All other NJAC schools can have a good year (or few years) every now again, but I  wouldn't expect them to be consistently strong.

Oh, OK, gotcha.

I wasn't including them because of appeal but because of past history.  I think Kean won a national title and had a pretty famous coach.  RUC I believe still has the same coach that got them to prominence.  Messiah barely, barely beat RUC in the 2013 final.  But then again, Loras should have won the semi with RUC imo.  And yes, RUC had some D1 transfers although iirc stud striker Mike Ryan was there as a frosh and maybe was a soph that year.

Kean won the championship at home in 92 against OWU I believe. They had Fredy Gurian, who was/is the greatest D3 striker I've ever seen. I played against him in HS and College - he was like a man amongst boys. He was a 2x first team AA and had 72 goals and 36 assists in only 3 years (24-12 average). I believe he left to play pro in Colombia and soon after broke his leg that effectively ended his career.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international.  I would include Swat whose record between 2015 and 2021 is 49-45-15, just about .500, and whose record this year is 6-6-4 with a finish near the bottom of Centennial in sight.   I would also add Pomona whose record since 2015 has been under .500.  Perhaps there should also be a thread for over-achievers. How does a school like North Park become a bastion for D3 men's soccer--it is certainly not academics or location.

Your thinking about college soccer solely being the province of high-cachet institutions of higher learning (i.e., a sport of privilege) is outdated. Nowadays, even the schools that cater to the lumpenproletariat are casting their eye towards achieving success on the soccer pitch.

And you're very much mistaken about North Park's location working against it in terms of soccer recruiting. While Chicago does have a bad rap for crime -- and the city as a whole does have a serious crime problem -- the North Park campus is located in a relatively safe middle-class neighborhood on the far north side of the city, many miles away from the danger zones of the West Side and South Side. More importantly, Chicago is a feature, not a bug, for a lot of young people looking for a school. The opportunities for internships, field education, etc., are unparalleled in a place like Chicago, and there's a heckuva lot more to do and see in Chicago than there is in Waverly or Northfield or Ada or Adrian or Hanover. Plus, if you're an international student, Chicago is exactly the kind of place where you want to be, as opposed to some anonymous suburb or a small town out in the middle of nowhere.

North Park's location is a definite liability as far as football recruiting is concerned. But it's an asset as far as soccer recruiting is concerned.

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 12:05:23 PMThat school has 30+ on the roster from Sweden and Denmark, they have some feeder system!

No, it doesn't. It's Sweden and Norway, not Sweden and Denmark. Our Norwegian student-athletes would be very, very unhappy with you for mistaking them for Danes. I don't want to get into details, but battle axes, mead intoxication, and blood eagles might be involved. ;)

(Also, for the record, there aren't 30+ Scandinavians on the Vikings men's soccer roster. NPU has twelve Norwegians, ten Swedes, two Dutch, a Brit, a Lithuanian, a Filipino, a Nigerian, and a Portuguese listed on the roster. There are also a couple of other guys who list a foreign city as their hometown but who graduated from local Chicagoland high schools; i.e., they're from immigrant families. NPU gets a lot of them, both athletes and non-athletes. Such is life in and around a world-class city.)

I agree with Deutschfan and have long thought strong academic schools that attract nationally are a natural fit for a strong D3 soccer program.  I personally know many D1 caliber players who are focused on strong academic schools and actively consider both D1 and D3 schools that meet that criteria.  In fact, for all the "right fit" mantra and the "D1 or bust" concern, this is the group that worries the least about division label and, while they generally would put Ivy League schools above all, it's not because they are laser focused on D1 per se and they don't consider many D3 schools to be much of a consolation prize, if any.  This is the demographic most likely to (1) be fully mobile and willing to go far away from home for school, (2) not need the D1/D2 scholarship $ (either because they have family resources or because they have strong enough academics to get academic merit $ + financial need $ to do better than most men's scholarship $ available), and (3) generally of interest to a lot of strong academic schools' admissions departments anyway.  So, while admissions standards might be high at these schools, the coaches can recruit nationally and often get players of a higher caliber than they might otherwise get.  Many of the NESCACs and UAA schools fit this profile of a strong academic AND strong soccer program, plus Johns Hopkins, Kenyon, Swarthmore etc.  One difference between academically strong D3s who have and don't have strong soccer programs seems to be recruiting presence.  The best ones travel to events and really recruit, the others seem not to have the budget or ambition for that. So, who more or less fits the profile but hasn't had as strong a soccer program?

Pomona-Pitzer

First of all, it's two REALLY strong academic schools (Pomona higher than Pitzer) that are entirely different in orientation, meaning they are attractive to a broader group of prospective students and provide two different admissions departments for a kid to try.  They also share the campus of the Claremont Schools, which is beautiful.   The classes are small and the schools have a small college liberal arts school feel with the resources of the the larger Claremont campus.  It's also close enough to Los Angeles to not feel remote and provide multiple airport access options and both schools already recruit nationally.  Plus, the women's program has been strong recently and Claremont-Mudd-Scripps has been strong for a long time (although perhaps that will turn with the hazing suspensions and the coaching churn), so it certainly can be done even though SoCal D3 is sort of on an island.  Pomona-Pitzer men's soccer has seemed to hang around the lower middle of SCIAC in recent years because they luck into some strong players through the attraction of the schools alone, but they attend very few recruiting events, maybe hold one poorly-publicized ID camp a year that gets 15-20 kids, and basically just coast.  Bill Swartz has been head coach for a long time (37+ years) and things may have grown stagnant.  He hasn't been on the sideline for several weeks, so I don't know what is going on there, but the associate head coach, Mike Ditta, who was an assistant for a long time at UC Irvine and has been running the team on the sidelines when Swartz has been absent, has been working to turn things around and has been a bit more ambitious in recruiting.  Pomona-Pitzer just opened an expanded and revamped athletics facility with team locker rooms (that they didn't have before), a huge D1-caliber weight room, and film rooms etc, so perhaps they will be able to jump start things.  One drawback is that, unlike other top SCIAC programs, including Redlands and C-M-S, the soccer team hasn't taken the trips necessary to build up it's strength of schedule.  I don't know if that's lack of athletic program support or lack of ambition, but that's likely a turnoff to a prospective student serious about both academic and soccer.  The field is also nice and well-maintained, but fan support is pretty limited and the field is kind of set up to limit fan access, with the team benches literally in front of and obscuring the one small set of bleachers and fans prohibited from sitting on the very small sideline on the opposite side of the field, which leaves a hilly area behind the goal as basically the only area to watch the game and not be in the way of warmups among the players on the team bench side.

Occidental 

It's not as strong academically as Pomona-Pitzer or Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, but it's strong enough to be competitive with a lot of east coast D3 schools, it does recruit well nationally (especially since Obama, who went there), and it's basically the only small liberal arts college local to Los Angeles, a massive area to recruit from if students want to stay local.  Also, since the school dropped football, the facilities are basically all available to them and they were renovated not that long ago, giving the whole program a D1 feel.  I do think they are on the upswing a little because they've opened up a pipeline with a local MLS Next program where the head coach, Rod Lafaurie, is Director of Elite Programming (who, I should point out, is a presence at showcases and recruiting events, which is not the case at some of these other schools).  One of the three freshman Lafaurie brought in from the U19 MLS Next team he coached there last year is tied for Oxy's leading goal scorer this year and another started almost all games, playing full 90s every game, and is tied for the team lead in assists at Oxy this season.  I tend to think the team is a bit less than the sum of its parts because the playing style is kind of an awkward mix between the high-skilled passing game of their best players, and fouling and kick and run among their lesser-skilled players, but that might change as they continue to upgrade.

Oberlin

Oberlin is a school that is relatively close to Cleveland, attracts students from both coasts with a high academic profile, and should be at least as competitive recruiting locally with programs like Denison, Ohio Wesleyan, Ohio Northern, Kenyon, and Case Western Reserve.  I don't know if that is lack of support for athletics at the school, or lack of ambition on the part of the coach, Blake New, who has a pro soccer pedigree, but it seems to just skate by year after year.

Grinnell

It's in Iowa, which may mean flyover country for a lot of people, but the student body certainly attracts nationally and it has a good academic profile.  Their record isn't bad over the years, but they don't seem to have gotten any traction toward establishing a stronger soccer program.  Their non-conference travel schedule isn't particularly ambitious beyond attending an occasional weekend tournament that brings together stronger programs, but there are certainly strong soccer programs in the midwest where they could challenge themselves.  They tend not to play the Luther or Loras programs, though, and they don't seem to have University of Chicago or Washington University on recent schedules, both of which are probably about 5 hour drives away.  In the West coast, that would be considered a quite reasonable drive for better competition and higher profile games.

Sarah Lawrence

Solid academic school that both attracts students nationally and is well positioned geographically to pick off strong players in the New York City/Long Island area.  They have a relatively new coach with a D1 background who may be laying the foundation for a culture change.  I see that freshman and sophomores started a decent amount of games this year.

UC Santa Cruz

I get that it has all sorts of structural obstacles.  The nearest D3 program is like 500 miles away.  Its conference, the Coast-to-Coast conference, is basically just an end of season tournament, often in Virginia.  Nevertheless, it's a state school with effectively a built-in-scholarship for California residents, it's academics are at least decent for a UC and there's a huge population of base of students who apply to it every year through the UC common app.  Some of its structural obstacles could be viewed as an advantage, since they come down to Los Angeles at least 3 times a year for at least 1-2 games each time, and up to Oregon or Washington for a 2-3 games, making it attractive for students who want to go away for school, but still want their parents to be able to watch a bunch of their games locally.  They've even traveled to Texas a couple of times over the years.  Plus, the conference tournament certainly feels like an NCAA tournament trip given the travel, making it sort of D1-lite end-of-season travel.  It's certainly no worse travel than Colorado College, and probably better, in a similarly beautiful (although very different) location.

Wells College

Other than a period from about 2013-2016, they have never been very strong, but since 2016, they've fallen off a cliff.  This year, they are 0-14 right now and the most wins they have had in a season since 2016 is 5.  It's not an uber strong academic school, but it was always viewed as a pretty good school and the cross enrollment options with Cornell and Ithaca might make it more attractive for some students who want the small liberal arts college and more academic options.  What happened to them?  I only count 17 players on their current roster (maybe 15 are real players) and almost all are freshman and sophomores.

Offering Salisbury (MD) Seagulls as a school that should be better.  Academics not part of the equation unless you are looking for high acceptance rate, but it checks the box for a lot of kids and parents. State school, inexpensive, large student body, good recruiting base for players and coaches.  And they beat Mary Washington this week so congrats despite a poor record.

Quote from: Pilsner on October 27, 2022, 02:18:08 PM
Offering Salisbury (MD) Seagulls as a school that should be better.  Academics not part of the equation unless you are looking for high acceptance rate, but it checks the box for a lot of kids and parents. State school, inexpensive, large student body, good recruiting base for players and coaches.  And they beat Mary Washington this week so congrats despite a poor record.

Tons of Maryland kids in NESCAC,but Maryland has a lot of youth players so they should be competitive .

Regarding crime. Hell, if that were a true issue, no one would ever go near places like Baltimore, Philly, New York, St. Louis, Boston, Atlanta and other areas with groups of D3 schools. I think we could certainly find campuses that aren't in a great part of a given city (Penn/Drexel pops to mind), but I know most universities aren't smack dab in the middle of areas of those cities with high crime rates.

I'm not even sure if that's what deutchfan was even saying about location, but I'd look to him to clarify. I DO know that there are lots of prospective students, (and/or their parents) that simply won't even consider going to school in, or very much adjacent, to a large city. It's just not what they want out of the collegiate experience.

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: Pilsner on October 27, 2022, 02:18:08 PM
Offering Salisbury (MD) Seagulls as a school that should be better.  Academics not part of the equation unless you are looking for high acceptance rate, but it checks the box for a lot of kids and parents. State school, inexpensive, large student body, good recruiting base for players and coaches.  And they beat Mary Washington this week so congrats despite a poor record.

Tons of Maryland kids in NESCAC,but Maryland has a lot of youth players so they should be competitive .

Maybe, but Salisbury is on the Eastern Shore which is long way from the Balt/Wash Corridor which is where most of the Maryland soccer kids grow up. Also known primarily as a d3 lacrosse powerhouse and not soccer.  If a kid were to stay in Maryland, there are many in the Balt/Wash corridor which are more successful like St. Mary's College of Maryland (also a state school).  The kids going NESCAC are generally Balt. prep school kids (or DC area prep school kids) who possibly could play for a medium to lower D1 program, but opted to go for academics/prestige. 

Quote from: Pilsner on October 27, 2022, 02:18:08 PM
Offering Salisbury (MD) Seagulls as a school that should be better.  Academics not part of the equation unless you are looking for high acceptance rate, but it checks the box for a lot of kids and parents. State school, inexpensive, large student body, good recruiting base for players and coaches.  And they beat Mary Washington this week so congrats despite a poor record.

100% agree. They were on my list for the exact readings you mentioned. I just didn't include them in my first post.

Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 27, 2022, 02:44:21 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: Pilsner on October 27, 2022, 02:18:08 PM
Offering Salisbury (MD) Seagulls as a school that should be better.  Academics not part of the equation unless you are looking for high acceptance rate, but it checks the box for a lot of kids and parents. State school, inexpensive, large student body, good recruiting base for players and coaches.  And they beat Mary Washington this week so congrats despite a poor record.

Tons of Maryland kids in NESCAC,but Maryland has a lot of youth players so they should be competitive .

Maybe, but Salisbury is on the Eastern Shore which is long way from the Balt/Wash Corridor which is where most of the Maryland soccer kids grow up. Also known primarily as a d3 lacrosse powerhouse and not soccer.  If a kid were to stay in Maryland, there are many in the Balt/Wash corridor which are more successful like St. Mary's College of Maryland (also a state school).  The kids going NESCAC are generally Balt. prep school kids (or DC area prep school kids) who possibly could play for a medium to lower D1 program, but opted to go for academics/prestige.

This.

Salisbury is in the middle of nowhere and doesn't even have St. Mary's allure of being right on the water... stunning campus with a D1(equivalent) sailing program. Salisbury would be better off if it moved closer to the beach, as it is, I think it's a solid 90 minute drive.

And as a Marylander that has sent two kids off to college (and lived here myself during the college-hunting days), Salisbury just isn't on the radar for most folks, at least not here in hot-bed for academics and soccer Montgomery County.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Staying in MD - Hood should be better than they are, IMO. Frederick is an up-and-coming city with a vibrant downtown area. The campus is nice and the field is decent. It's not a tremendous academic school, but it's pretty under-rated (again IMO). (EDIT: It's actually better regarded these days... I need to always remember that schools have changed a lot (in some cases) from even when my kids were looking.)

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

LOL, when I saw deutschfan's post I got that feeling one gets when seeing a friend walking into something you can't protect them from.  A la "don't mess with Texas," there should be a "don't mess with North Park" flag.  And in truth, that's how almost all of us feel about our schools.

I do think the preoccupation with "off the charts academic schools" is a tricky but really, really important topic.  Maybe I'll try to talk about it more in another venue.  I do think it is legitimate to wonder why schools (and we pretty much hit all of them) that check so many boxes don't do better with their soccer programs or with athletics in general.  But, and I think I've said something similar recently, the percentage of the population who thinks about high end/elite colleges relative to the general population, or even the population interested in college more generally, is pretty small.  My kid went to a large public high school in MA and although many more could have in terms of credentials, probably less than 10 (maybe less than 5) out of 1500+ students did the whole round of college visits through Maine, NY, PA, CT, OH, NC, VA, etc.  I never considered for one second that I wasn't going to take my kid around the horn to see at least 15-20 "really good schools" with a goal of him getting in the best school he could that also would be the best fit for him, but we were a real outlier in that regard in our community (which wasn't Wellesley or Newton or Andover but not unsophisticated either).  When you read the rosters of some of the highest end colleges they are flooded with kids from some of the most elite prep schools in the United States.  This is not to say that there isn't a huge industry that caters to this demographic for some obvious reasons like $$$, but the amount of focus on it I think tends to yield a very distorted picture.  The large majority of potential college players probably don't care whether or not they're accessing a top 50 LAC or top 50 university.  And indeed, that's another whole discussion, because many of us are so saturated in our demographic (and striving to extend it even higher) that we actually come to believe in a "top 50," as though some school being listed at #17 in USNWR is a real thing.  And we are so knee deep in it that I guess in some ways it ends up becoming real (at least for us). 

As for Oberlin, the Yeomen have had a couple of really good years over the last decade but in general they have been a .500 or below program.  Oberlin is not a school one thinks of as being a haven for athletes given its very progressive, artsy, conservatory, environmental vibe.  There are some similarities with Vassar...another school that one wouldn't think of as attracting a ton of athletes, but for whatever reason Vassar overall has been a consistently stronger soccer program (good, but not elite I would say).  All that said, Oberlin should be better for the reasons @kuiper cited.  The rural/suburban but very close to a major metropolitan area is a combo that appeals to a fair amount of folks.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 03:20:51 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

And the NESCACs openly relax their admissions requirements to populate their sports teams. 

I concur with Ejay on this.  The dominance of the NESCAC schools including Tufts incredible run, and the emergence of the University of Chicago as a consistent national powerhouse supports the notion that soccer is a thinking man's game and the schools with the greatest thinkers have had the most recent success.  I also believe that the top academic D3 programs have an expanded pool of players as many D1 candidates will use their soccer to obtain admission at a top academic D3 school that far surpasses academically the D1 programs that have shown interest in them.  As for North Park, Kedzie and Foster is not Old Town, Wrigleyville, or the Miracle Mile which happens to have been designated a high crime area.  There are Christian schools outside the city in beautiful areas including Wheaton and Augustana.  Augustana has Swedish roots and yet has an abysmal record and a roster that doesn't include a bunch of Scandinavian impact players.  North Park has done a remarkable job recruiting internationals and should be commended for it.  That being said, I would list it as one of the top over-achievers in men's D3 soccer.

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I tend to think the ability to recruit nationally (and internationally) v. locally or regionally helps to offset the lower pool of realistic admissions candidates, but that also means the coaches have to do more work to find the pool of players who are candidates for strong academic schools. 

There's was a Simple Coach interview with the head coach of, I think, RPI where the coach said that once he refocused his task on finding great pre-engineering students who also played soccer, his job was in some ways easier because, although it was a smaller pool, there were also a smaller pool of schools that would be acceptable to those students.  In his world, he said, if a kid told him he got into MIT, he would tell him to go there, but if the kid didn't get into MIT, it wasn't like that kid was going to some school that didn't offer engineering and he had a shot.

Another thing that great coaches do is find kids early and help them build their academic profiles to be a fit (effectively expanding the pool of kids).  For example, there's a kid from a family I know in Compton (a rougher neighborhood south of Los Angeles) who is being raised by a single mom who really wants to get him to college.  She didn't go and there's only one uncle in the family who went to a Cal State, but she's determined and he's serious about finding a way out.  The kid's a strong MLS Next player and he's a pretty good student - 3.7 GPA as a Junior at a public math and science magnet high school.  So, he's not a sure thing, but it's not out of the question either.  Since she's had him e-mailing coaches early, he has multiple coaches who have been talking to him extensively for over a year now about what courses he needs to take, what grades he needs in those courses, what he needs to do in terms of test scores to improve his chances (even at test optional schools) etc.  The kid likely would never move away from his family for just a school where he could play on a good soccer team, but you can be sure he would (or at least that's what his mom says) to give him a chance at a top academic school that can provide a chance for generational change in his family.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PM
I concur with Ejay on this.  The dominance of the NESCAC schools including Tufts incredible run, and the emergence of the University of Chicago as a consistent national powerhouse supports the notion that soccer is a thinking man's game and the schools with the greatest thinkers have had the most recent success.  I also believe that the top academic D3 programs have an expanded pool of players as many D1 candidates will use their soccer to obtain admission at a top academic D3 school that far surpasses academically the D1 programs that have shown interest in them.  As for North Park, Kedzie and Foster is not Old Town, Wrigleyville, or the Miracle Mile which happens to have been designated a high crime area.  There are Christian schools outside the city in beautiful areas including Wheaton and Augustana.  Augustana has Swedish roots and yet has an abysmal record and a roster that doesn't include a bunch of Scandinavian impact players.  North Park has done a remarkable job recruiting internationals and should be commended for it.  That being said, I would list it as one of the top over-achievers in men's D3 soccer.

You really think soccer IQ tracks parallel to, for lack of better words, "academic IQ"?

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 03:20:51 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

The NESCAC and the UAA amount to nineteen schools between them. That's nineteen schools out of the 414 schools that have D3 men's soccer programs ... to say nothing of all of the D1, D2, NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA, and NJCAA schools that have men's soccer programs as well.

You can't really extrapolate anything about the size of the pool of top soccer players who are also high academic achievers based upon a mere nineteen schools.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PM
I concur with Ejay on this.  The dominance of the NESCAC schools including Tufts incredible run, and the emergence of the University of Chicago as a consistent national powerhouse supports the notion that soccer is a thinking man's game and the schools with the greatest thinkers have had the most recent success.

And you, too, fall victim to the bias of small sample size. Plus, your athletics focus is too parochial. The NESCAC schools and the UAA schools (not just the U of C) tend to be good at most sports, not just men's soccer. It has nothing to do with it being "a thinking man's game;" the NESCAC and the UAA are also two of the top five or so leagues in D3 men's basketball, f'rinstance, and the next time that anyone refers to college basketball as being "a thinking man's game" will be the first.

It's all about academic cachet, not about the nature of the sport.

Quote from: Kuiper on October 27, 2022, 02:06:48 PM

Wells College

Other than a period from about 2013-2016, they have never been very strong, but since 2016, they've fallen off a cliff.  This year, they are 0-14 right now and the most wins they have had in a season since 2016 is 5.  It's not an uber strong academic school, but it was always viewed as a pretty good school and the cross enrollment options with Cornell and Ithaca might make it more attractive for some students who want the small liberal arts college and more academic options.  What happened to them?  I only count 17 players on their current roster (maybe 15 are real players) and almost all are freshman and sophomores.

Dan Kane left after the 2016 season for Oswego after doing some heavy lifting to build them up. The school is tiny and I don't think the HC job is compensated well, even by d3 standards. Pandemic hurt Wells hard as tuition makes up over 75% of their revenue.

The tournament cannot start fast enough!

Quote from: 4231CenterBack on October 27, 2022, 03:36:29 PM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 03:20:51 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

And the NESCACs openly relax their admissions requirements to populate their sports teams.

Of course they do. But they cannot relax them beyond a certain point. High academic recruiting is something I know about, having gone through that journey for several years with my son.

Agree on that.  Also totally disagree with Greg's take on soccer not being a thinking man's sport.  Here is just one description of the game--"Soccer is 90 minutes of system-thinking in action. Success relies on dispersed decision-making, constant communication, and the commitment of an entire team to a single system to reach a common goal. It is also the most popular sport in the world."  American football has set plays, baseball has standard responses to pretty much every scenario, and basketball is far less fluid than soccer.  I would submit that the reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes.  That doesn't mean that among the various sports soccer doesn't require the most thinking.

I think it boils down to schools with a national or very strong regional footprint are able to attract and recruit at higher success rate. Quite frankly, I'm not really sure there's much of a debate, when strip it clear of focusing on the academic ranking or whatever. (And it's why places like Hood, Susquehanna and Salisbury struggle. They're barely a blip in their own state, let alone regionally and nationally.)

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: 4231CenterBack on October 27, 2022, 03:36:29 PM

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 03:20:51 PM

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 03:06:31 PM
Re schools that are academic,  and therefore can attract students because of their stellar reputations-- yes, but the pool of top soccer players that also are at the top academically is not huge. Therefore while they can draw students towards them, they cannot recruit most soccer players. Swarthmore would be a great example:-)

I disagree. I think the consensus says that NESCSC and UAA are the two strongest conferences and they're certainly at the top of the academic heap.

And the NESCACs openly relax their admissions requirements to populate their sports teams.

Of course they do. But they cannot relax them beyond a certain point. High academic recruiting is something I know about, having gone through that journey for several years with my son.

Having worked in Higher Ed in New England I can tell you being a great athlete is a tremendous asset when trying to get into a high academic.  No dummies make it in but you'd be surprised.  I guess ultimately results on the field matter....and based on that it would appear that the NESCACs, UAAs and some others have something going for them  :)

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PMAs for North Park, Kedzie and Foster is not Old Town, Wrigleyville, or the Miracle Mile which happens to have been designated a high crime area.

First of all, it's the "Magnificent Mile", not the "Miracle Mile". The Miracle Mile is in Los Angeles.

Second, the Magnificent Mile is not a residential neighborhood. It's a shopping district. There are no residential colleges or universities on the Magnificent Mile. It's a high-crime area because of the breakdown of law and order with regard to property crime (in particular, organized theft rings) that would be the subject of a very different conversation than this one -- and which is endemic in large American cities, not just Chicago's Magnificent Mile.

Third, while you are quite correct that the North Park neighborhood isn't Old Town or Wrigleyville, that matters not a whit. NPU is a five-minute walk from the Brown Line el, which goes to Old Town and Wrigleyville (as well as a lot of other places, including the Loop) and connects to everything else, and there are also three buslines within that five-minute walk that can likewise take you into myriad other neighborhoods (some hip, some not-so-hip). In other words, the fact that the North Park neighborhood itself is a relatively sleepy bedroom community is irrelevant when you have public transportation available at your doorstep to take you wherever you want to go in minutes. (Plus, Lincoln Square, one of the trendiest and liveliest neighborhoods on the North Side, is within walking distance of NPU.)

Fourth, the only college or university located in a high-end neighborhood in Chicago is DePaul, which is located in Lincoln Park -- so if actually being located within tony environs was the selling point involved (which it isn't), there would only be one school in the city that could claim that distinction.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PMThere are Christian schools outside the city in beautiful areas including Wheaton and Augustana.

You're seriously misinformed if you're classifying Augustana as a "Christian school", as that term is popularly understood in the United States. It's a nominally Lutheran institution that has, at best, a vestigial attachment to institutional Christianity and a limited, unobtrusive on-campus faith atmosphere. In fact, Augustana is very much known for being a "party school" with a high-profile frat presence on campus.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the topic of Christian schools located outside of Chicago, anyway.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PMAugustana has Swedish roots and yet has an abysmal record

Schools founded by Swedish immigrants are supposed to automatically be good at soccer? Good news for NPU and Gustavus Adolphus, but it's going to come as some surprise not only to Augie but to Bethany College (https://www.bethanyswedes.com/sports/msoc/2022-23/schedule) as well.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PMand a roster that doesn't include a bunch of Scandinavian impact players.

Not for lack of trying; Mick Regan has imported a number of Scandinavians over the past few seasons in his thus-far-fruitless attempts to bring soccer competence to a campus where, for reasons I'd love to hear you explain, good soccer is supposed to be a birthright. Their impact has been negligible. Is there a statute of limitations on Swedish colleges being good at soccer? After all, Augie was founded in 1860 (older than GAC by two years). Or perhaps they've lost the magic kanelbulle recipe that turns ordinary Swedes into Zlatan Ibrahimovic.

Same thing with Millikin, Carroll, and North Central, all of whom have imported several Scandinavian international players in recent years with little or no success. Where NCC is having better luck at the moment is with Italian players -- there's some really impressive Italian freshmen among this season's Cardinals -- which makes sense, given that North Central's head coach, Enzo Fuschino, is himself an Italian immigrant.

Dubuque is probably the midwestern D3 outfit aside from NPU that has had the most success with a Swede-heavy lineup.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 03:41:02 PMNorth Park has done a remarkable job recruiting internationals and should be commended for it.  That being said, I would list it as one of the top over-achievers in men's D3 soccer.

That would've been true two decades ago, when NPU became good enough to compete with Wheaton and rose to the ranks of respectable regional power (i.e., a team that couldn't get out of the first weekend of the D3 tourney), but now it's no longer true. NPU isn't overachieving anymore, because the program has been good enough for long enough to sustain itself as a destination program. A lot of kids who would get playing time at other small-college programs in the tri-state area walk on or basically recruit themselves to NPU nowadays. And NPU is a known commodity in the realm of Scandinavian youth soccer, as a number of Vikings soccer alumni now work for sports academies and scouting services in Norway and Sweden and don't hesitate to tip off the Vikings coaches to a high-level prospect while selling the school to the kid on their own end. (It certainly doesn't hurt that NPU's head coach is himself a Swede.)

North Park might've even arguably been called an overachiever as recently as 2017 when the Vikings made it to the national championship game. But they've now reached the second weekend in three of the last four tournaments, and they've been a mainstay of the two national polls. North Park is not an overachiever anymore.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 03:25:51 PMWhen you read the rosters of some of the highest end colleges they are flooded with kids from some of the most elite prep schools in the United States.  This is not to say that there isn't a huge industry that caters to this demographic for some obvious reasons like $$$, but the amount of focus on it I think tends to yield a very distorted picture.

This. Very much, this.

(https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/macruber-will-forte-head-nod.gif)

Are people surprised that the" pay to play" system present in the US youth system creates the type of college landscape we currently witnessing? The recruiting is really easy for the elite schools, top players are largely at top academic high schools, from upper income families that don't need financial aid.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 04:14:13 PM
Agree on that.  Also totally disagree with Greg's take on soccer not being a thinking man's sport.  Here is just one description of the game--"Soccer is 90 minutes of system-thinking in action. Success relies on dispersed decision-making, constant communication, and the commitment of an entire team to a single system to reach a common goal. It is also the most popular sport in the world."  American football has set plays, baseball has standard responses to pretty much every scenario, and basketball is far less fluid than soccer.  I would submit that the reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes.  That doesn't mean that among the various sports soccer doesn't require the most thinking.

This makes no sense, for several reasons. First of all, you're aware that soccer is a working-man's and poor man's sport around the world, right? Right? Where's the "academic prowess" on the Brazilian national team? How many English Premier League players graduated at the top of their high-school class? Do you think that Bundesliga locker rooms are rife with hearty debates over Kantian deontology or the importance of "transformation of consciousness" in the Expressionst plays of Ernst Toller?

You should've just stopped at "The reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes," which has the virtue of being true, rather than postulating some connection between soccer and high-end intellect, which is completely spurious.

Fencing, squash, and equestrian (dressage, show-jumping, etc.) are also activities traditionally dominated by the upper classes in the United States. I suppose that each of those activities shows a correspondence to high intelligence as well, right?

I guess that if I really want my kid to succeed in the classroom I should tell him to put down the book and go pick up a croquet mallet. ;)

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 12:20:23 PM

Quote from: WUPHF on October 27, 2022, 12:18:17 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Amherst!

8-9 international students including the Bermuda, the UK, Australia, Lithuania and Cypress.  Thanks, that is a good example.

Glad I didn't touch too many nerves Greg.  You are right about the name Magnificent Mile although it is certainly one of the city's attractions as a commercial area and is the home of the one of the best art schools in the country.  It is also unusual that a city's crown jewel of shopping has an out of control crime problem.  There are schools other than DePaul in affluent areas of Chicago, most notably the current number one team in the country in Hyde Park, and if we are including D1, Northwestern in bordering Evanston has an incredibly beautiful campus and is a short L ride from the best Chicago has to offer., and Loyola University is right on the lake.  NPU has achieved great results, far better than I would have expected given its JC roots and urban northwest Chicago location.  Kudos to its players and coaches.

Quote from: WUPHF on October 27, 2022, 05:10:07 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 12:20:23 PM

Quote from: WUPHF on October 27, 2022, 12:18:17 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Those schools with off the charts academics should be able to attract quality players both domestic and international. 

I am curious, are there examples of off the charts academics that recruit internationals well?  With students who would, in many cases, choose to pay tuition rather than staying home or going Division II?

Amherst!

8-9 international students including the Bermuda, the UK, Australia, Lithuania and Cypress.  Thanks, that is a good example.

You meant Cyprus? think they also have a kid from Singapore!

Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:28 PM
You meant Cyprus? think they also have a kid from Singapore!

Indeed I did.

There is a kid with a Pennsylvania home town who went to school in Singapore.  I feel like there have a number of Americans who go to international schools on elite university rosters over the years.

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

There are kids from public schools, but those towns have comparable schools to the Preps, specialized public schools are another big supplier of students.

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 05:22:28 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

There are kids from public schools, but those towns have comparable schools to the Preps, specialized public schools are another big supplier of students.

You mean like maybe Greenwich, CT....where my wife grew up?
;)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 27, 2022, 04:32:48 PM
I think it boils down to schools with a national or very strong regional footprint are able to attract and recruit at higher success rate. Quite frankly, I'm not really sure there's much of a debate, when strip it clear of focusing on the academic ranking or whatever. (And it's why places like Hood, Susquehanna and Salisbury struggle. They're barely a blip in their own state, let alone regionally and nationally.)

Totally agree with this.  Academic ranking, as filtered through US News etc, is the most common way these national reputations develop because the rankings are easily accessible and broadly distributed and many people will travel away from home for college in search of academic prestige, but there are others.  For example, schools with strong religious missions (e.g., Calvin, Messiah, and Yeshiva) likely have strong brand names with people who are members of the same religious movement and perhaps schools with strong social justice missions (maybe Vassar and Oberlin) have the same network effect.  Alternatively, on a micro-level, reputations can develop in small pockets like individual high schools or soccer clubs if that high school/club has sent a number of its graduates to a particular college who then return to sing its praises. 

One way to raise a school's national reputation is athletic success, which translates into enrollment growth and is sometimes called the "Flutie Effect," although a more modern example would be Gonzaga in Spokane, Washington.  D3 Men's soccer probably doesn't have the same effect (for example, I'm assuming Washington College didn't experience a noticeable rise in applications that can be traced to its run to the third round of the NCAA tourney last year, assuming that was not expected).  Nevertheless, it might help push students in that sport to consider that school for that sport when they had never heard of it before and wouldn't necessarily consider it because it's outside of their region.

So, for me, I'm really using academic prestige as a proxy for something the school has that should make it easier for them to recruit nationally or regionally rather than just locally.  That's not the only reason a soccer program should be better, but it certainly gives coaches a leg up in making it better.

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

I'm not sure there is any correlation here.  I haven't gone through the bios on any of the D3 NESCAC rosters but I picked Duke as an example because it also has a lot of recruited players from prep schools and the majority are listed as playing some form of MLS Academy or comparable in high school.  Likely you would see similar from top D3 programs.  Players aren't getting top tier soccer training from prep schools.  They're going to prep schools and are also competing on academy teams.

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:24:43 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 05:22:28 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

There are kids from public schools, but those towns have comparable schools to the Preps, specialized public schools are another big supplier of students.

You mean like maybe Greenwich, CT....where my wife grew up?
;)

Yea! Westfield NJ, Scotch Plains NJ  are places that come to mind.

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 05:36:42 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

I'm not sure there is any correlation here.  I haven't gone through the bios on any of the D3 NESCAC rosters but I picked Duke as an example because it also has a lot of recruited players from prep schools and the majority are listed as playing some form of MLS Academy or comparable in high school.  Likely you would see similar from top D3 programs.  Players aren't getting top tier soccer training from prep schools.  They're going to prep schools and are also competing on academy teams.

The Duke example isn't helpful, we're talking about D3.

And one of the reasons prep schools are good places to develop is because many of them cater to kids playing on elite clubs. And they actually do develop the players on campus as well, particularly the ones with PG programs. For many kids a 5th year at a prep school is a necessary next step for playing in college.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 27, 2022, 05:07:55 PM

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 04:14:13 PM
Agree on that.  Also totally disagree with Greg's take on soccer not being a thinking man's sport.  Here is just one description of the game--"Soccer is 90 minutes of system-thinking in action. Success relies on dispersed decision-making, constant communication, and the commitment of an entire team to a single system to reach a common goal. It is also the most popular sport in the world."  American football has set plays, baseball has standard responses to pretty much every scenario, and basketball is far less fluid than soccer.  I would submit that the reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes.  That doesn't mean that among the various sports soccer doesn't require the most thinking.

This makes no sense, for several reasons. First of all, you're aware that soccer is a working-man's and poor man's sport around the world, right? Right? Where's the "academic prowess" on the Brazilian national team? How many English Premier League players graduated at the top of their high-school class? Do you think that Bundesliga locker rooms are rife with hearty debates over Kantian deontology or the importance of "transformation of consciousness" in the Expressionst plays of Ernst Toller?

You should've just stopped at "The reason why the NESCAC and UAA are successful in most sports is because their academic prowess has caused them to attract top athletes," which has the virtue of being true, rather than postulating some connection between soccer and high-end intellect, which is completely spurious.

Fencing, squash, and equestrian (dressage, show-jumping, etc.) are also activities traditionally dominated by the upper classes in the United States. I suppose that each of those activities shows a correspondence to high intelligence as well, right?

I guess that if I really want my kid to succeed in the classroom I should tell him to put down the book and go pick up a croquet mallet. ;)

Greg, you crack me up.  Kantian deontology...well played.

I am friends with a coach at a prep school that feeds into NESCAC tier schools.  I am friends with coaches at academy teams.  I can tell you for a fact that the academy teams are where the soccer development comes from.   "They cater to kids playing at elite clubs"  Yes, that is where the soccer development is.   

ME Soccer fan is 100% correct.  The New England prep schools are a tremendous feeder for exclusive colleges and D1s for that matter.  My son played in the MLS NEXT system and many of his teammates played for preps in the fall and then joined his squad for the winter and spring.  His coaches would have preferred they had not, but they freely admitted that the training and competition at the Prep level was high quality.

Is the coaching and training better than MLS NEXT training?  No

Yes to those saying Club is what develops the players not most Prep schools. (There are some exceptions,  notably South Kent).

A couple of finer points: just like colleges,  some/most prep schools recruit,  and recruit from all over, including internationally. Also, Black Rock a club with teams at an mls next level, was started to cater to prep players.

Prep school to college soccer is its own pipeline.

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 06:01:25 PM
Yes to those saying Club is what develops the players not most Prep schools. (There are some exceptions,  notably South Kent).

A couple of finer points: just like colleges,  some/most prep schools recruit,  and recruit from all over, including internationally. Also, Black Rock a club with teams at an mls next level, was started to cater to prep players.

Prep school to college soccer is its own pipeline.

Clubs like schools put more into recruiting than training!

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
Is the coaching and training better than MLS NEXT training?  No

Probably in most cases...so ergo little or no development happens at prep schools.  Got it.

Did I say that?

"I can tell you for a fact that the academy teams are where the soccer development comes from. "

Quote from: Another Mom on October 27, 2022, 06:01:25 PM
Yes to those saying Club is what develops the players not most Prep schools. (There are some exceptions,  notably South Kent).

A couple of finer points: just like colleges,  some/most prep schools recruit,  and recruit from all over, including internationally. Also, Black Rock a club with teams at an mls next level, was started to cater to prep players.

Prep school to college soccer is its own pipeline.

Very helpful, insightful post. Thanks A_M..

https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

This is a great example of how embedded this stuff is in our consciousness, especially IF we have been part of the demographic or aspire to become part of it.

The "where did you go to school" question is like the question.  I've asked that question my whole life, and it's always one of the first questions at any nice cocktail party...either where you went to school, where your kids went or are going, or both.  To be clear, there's no malice in it.  It's that world, and I only learned about about it from friends who meet other people I know and they later tell me how strange they thought it was that that was the starter question...or a question at all.  My girlfriend's family in high school had a father who went to West Point and all the kids went to Davidson.  Years later when I took my wife-to-be to meet them, they immediately out of the gate (nicely) grilled her about her background and of course colleges....where she went, where her brothers went, and where her parents went.  Totally innocent, totally ingrained, and sometimes totally infuriating.  It's like meeting someone from Atlanta who tells you he went to Oglethorpe, and the response is "oh yeah, I've heard of Oglethorpe...how far is it from Emory?"  Or the same with Rhodes..."oh, yeah, Rhodes, nice little LAC...is it close to Vanderbilt?"  The tell is in the pivot.  The person 98% of the time will have no clue that they pivoted so quickly and why.  You rarely hear a parent front with "my older kid went to Savannah State and my younger one is at Winthrop."

And yes, some of these prep schools folks are talking about are as nice or nicer than the elite colleges they populate, and with similar price tags as well.  It is a very narrow demographic that views PG years as strategic rather than remedial, as a feature and not an unfortunate necessity (like for some less affluent D1 recruits).

I am as bad as anyone on this board regarding the above.  I know that.  And for the most part I probably will continue to be...but I'm trying to be a just little more mindful.

The NESCACs and their peers are wonderful schools.  Same with UAAs and their peers.  They do have a tremendous recruiting advantage for a very prominent but minority demographic...and they also have the advantage of saying that they're also disadvantaged (nearly handicapped) by their exclusivity.  One last thing before a few respond.  Many of these colleges have worked extremely hard to become more "diverse," driving up the numbers of persons of color, 1st generation college students, internationals, etc.  That's great...but guess who that is marketed for and to?  That stuff is largely marketed to the elite consumer who is savvy and demanding enough to know that at least on paper their child from Harvard Westlake, The Haverford School, Loomis Chaffee, The Westminster Schools, Milton Academy, The Pingry School, New Trier (might be a high end public), etc, etc will, again, at least on paper, benefit from having such a rich multicultural experience.

SC, already 5 pages in!

Now your just being silly.....I'll see your Conn College and raise with Williams, Amherst, and Tufts  :)

https://ephsports.williams.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster?path=msoc

https://athletics.amherst.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster

https://gotuftsjumbos.com/sports/msoc/roster

I can now officially say I forget what we are arguing about.....

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:15:04 PM
https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

I agree with you.  The other part, the prep school part, is the desired accompaniment.  They go hand in hand in the world of elite resume building.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PM
Glad I didn't touch too many nerves Greg.

Only the nerves involved in shaking my head. :D

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMYou are right about the name Magnificent Mile

Well, of course I am. I'd be a pretty sorry Chicagoan if I couldn't properly name the most infamous tourist district in my hometown, wouldn't I?

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PM
although it is certainly one of the city's attractions as a commercial area and is the home of the one of the best art schools in the country.

Incorrect. The School of the Art Institute of Chicago is in the Loop, not on the Magnificent Mile. In other words, the SAIC is south of the Chicago River on Michigan Avenue, whereas the Magnificent Mile stretches north from the river to Oak Street Beach.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMIt is also unusual that a city's crown jewel of shopping has an out of control crime problem.

It's not unusual at all, sadly. As I said, property crime has become endemic in America's major cities, particularly but not exclusively in the high-end shopping districts. It's even worse than Chicago in places like San Francisco and Los Angeles.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMThere are schools other than DePaul in affluent areas of Chicago, most notably the current number one team in the country in Hyde Park,

Hyde Park is not a particularly affluent neighborhood, although it isn't poor, either. It caters to a community with lots of academic types (i.e., people who don't make money hand-over-fist). And even the higher-end housing within Hyde Park is always just a stone's throw from the 'hood.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMand if we are including D1, Northwestern in bordering Evanston has an incredibly beautiful campus and is a short L ride from the best Chicago has to offer.,

Yes, it does. But Evanston isn't Chicago, so it doesn't count.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMand Loyola University is right on the lake.

Yep. But that part of Rogers Park isn't exactly a destination neighborhood for yuppies. I'll never forget when my youngest brother and his wife moved into an apartment in South Rogers Park, two blocks from the Loyola campus, with the help of me and our parents. Right up the street I watched a crack deal take place in broad daylight on the sidewalk. I was horrified, but, fortunately my mother either missed it or was too naive to recognize what was happening.

Quote from: deutschfan on October 27, 2022, 05:12:21 PMNPU has achieved great results, far better than I would have expected given its JC roots and urban northwest Chicago location.  Kudos to its players and coaches.

Every sequoia began as a seedling. ;)

It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points. 

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:38:10 PM
It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

The club system is not less elitist than prep schools, I have seen a lot of kids who can play at top clubs and even with free tuition they can't afford the 6000 -8000 per year for travelling.

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:38:10 PM
It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

All in good fun  :)   My kid is a public school kid who played MLS NEXT who is NOT going to a NESCACish institution.  So I have no skin in this game!

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:15:04 PM
https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

About 6 or 7 years ago, top level soccer prospects (or kids/parents who thought they were) were urged to move from the prep/high school soccer system (much like college and in most cases= super compressed schedules and poorly coached high school teams) to developmental academy systems where they play 8 or 9 months a year with games stretched out and with, in theory, better professional coaching.  While this was happening, top or even mediocre prospects were not allowed to play high school soccer.  So while they went to HS/prep school obviously, they did not play for their high schools/prep schools.  You will generally see this for all D1 programs now and some D3 programs have adopted this.

Top D1 and many top D3 programs now really only recruit from these DA programs which is why they list their DA clubs on the roster.  They never or only shortly played high school soccer.  No college coach goes to HS game to see prospect play.

This is all a generalization and there are many exceptions. Our son was one part of one the last really good club team that played on a club that allowed kids to play HS soccer (only because the club had many Balt. prep coaches).  From the '99 and '00 year group teams, all but one went to D1 programs ranging from Maryland, Navy, Air Force and many in between. The one that did not was big contributor to Tufts. He could have gone with a DA in Balt or DC, but really liked HS and it players, plus his coach ran Coerver for Maryland. So not your usual HS coach.

We were fortunate to be in the Baltimore area and we had a Coever coach for our son's high school.  Many of the better coaches for club are Balt. private school coaches.  So once the private school season ended immediately the couple of top clubs started with the same players.

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 06:46:53 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:38:10 PM
It's crazy how this thread got so derailed.  Look, there is an academic and personal growth advantage to going to a prep school obviously.  The soccer instruction is also good enough and re: the recruiting aspect, there is probably a higher chance of playing with other decent players as opposed to a public high school.  My point was the youth soccer pipeline is at a point in this country where the most impactful development is coming from the MLS Academies and other top tier clubs.  I didn't think there was much to debate on that point but I guess I was wrong.  This will be my last post on the topic.

Another addendum, this thread has become nauseatingly elitist at points.

The club system is not less elitist than prep schools, I have seen a lot of kids who can play at top clubs and even with free tuition they can't afford the 6000 -8000 per year for travelling.

This is absolutely a major problem and one that needs to be addressed if the US ever wants to make the next step forward in competing internationally. 

Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on October 27, 2022, 06:48:26 PM

Quote from: paclassic89 on October 27, 2022, 06:15:04 PM
https://camelathletics.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster

Wonder why they list all of the ECNL and MLS NEXT clubs on the roster.  Surely just putting the school would suffice to let prospective recruits know the quality of the program

About 6 or 7 years ago, top level soccer prospects (or kids/parents who thought they were) were urged to move from the prep/high school soccer system (much like college and in most cases= super compressed schedules and poorly coached high school teams) to developmental academy systems where they play 8 or 9 months a year with games stretched out and with, in theory, better professional coaching.  While this was happening, top or even mediocre prospects were not allowed to play high school soccer.  So while they went to HS/prep school obviously, they did not play for their high schools/prep schools.  You will generally see this for all D1 programs now and some D3 programs have adopted this.

Top D1 and many top D3 programs now really only recruit from these DA programs which is why they list their DA clubs on the roster.  They never or only shortly played high school soccer.  No college coach goes to HS game to see prospect play.

This is all a generalization and there are many exceptions. Our son was one part of one the last really good club team that played on a club that allowed kids to play HS soccer (only because the club had many Balt. prep coaches).  From the '99 and '00 year group teams, all but one went to D1 programs ranging from Maryland, Navy, Air Force and many in between. The one that did not was big contributor to Tufts. He could have gone with a DA in Balt or DC, but really liked HS and it players, plus his coach ran Coerver for Maryland. So not your usual HS coach.

We were fortunate to be in the Baltimore area and we had a Coever coach for our son's high school.  Many of the better coaches for club are Balt. private school coaches.  So once the private school season ended immediately the couple of top clubs started with the same players.

The academies coach tell public school kids ,that if they play high school they can't play for the club but they are much more flexible with the prep school kids.

Back on topic, maybe.

We are asking why schools should be better.  Maybe a different way to look at it would possibly be looking at what a make a good program good?  And then look at why programs, which were good, have fallen.

IMO there are maybe three things that program has to at least have to be successful

1. A committed coach to one school who has integrity, soccer sense (naturally) and is a leader.  Further he has to be able to judge soccer talent and create a culture young men can become a part of.  In other words a positive culture for the team and everything surrounding it.
2. Facilities - a decent Field, access to weight room, competent trainers, trainer room.  College location might play a part here, but many kids are adaptable. 
3. Resources - Able to hire at least 2 competent asst. coaches who can effectively recruit. College admin support.  Along with this (and this may be as important) - an engaged alumni network that is committed to support the program financially as well as open to mentorship (soccer, summer and post college careers as well).

I think most successful programs have all three and perhaps even more as well. 

So where do the schools that should be better fall into these categories? I am guessing that coach that satisfies most of #1, but only has part of 2 and 3 then the program might succeed for a bit, but will most likely fall off.

Several maybe examples mentioned is board with the caveat that I don't know a lot about these programs -

1. Haverford - had a good coach who had success, but he left after in 2018 I think.  The field was disaster then and still is.
2. Muhlenberg - has a really, really bad field, but has had some success this year (made the Cent. Conf. playoffs, tied Hopkins - sorry Hopkins92, and has scored the most goals in the conference. Don't really know much about the coach other than his bio - successful until 2014 and it just fell off until recently.
3. Dickenson - second year coach
4. Ursinus - had some success last year - beat Hopkins (sorry again Hopkins92), but coach left the program in the lurch in May of this year.

That's because prep school has required sports. The kids can't go to prep school if they don't play. I can't speak to every school but the NEPSAC schools require sports (or equivalent activity,  like theater or working on the school farm). Which is why Black Rock was started by the former coach at Berkshire. Prep school kids can't fit in with a normal club soccer schedule,  can't make most practices etc. So Black Rock only played in tournaments,  no leagues. They played some MLS Next teams. They would have internal showcases (so, only Black Rock teams)  with 50-75 coaches from places like Stanford,  Dartmouth,  Harvard, Duke etc as well as D3s like Amherst, Connecticut College etc.

I do not know if the club still has its prep school arm, as it's also branched into residential academies and might be stretched thin.

*and by prep school, I'm talking about boarding school, not private day schools

I guess I need to clarify a little.

Prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player in the same way they are great places to secure one's financial future. They facilitate (rather than hinder) playing at top clubs, they provide athletic training and excellent facilities, in the NE they play in competitive leagues, and they get you in the "selective" college pipeline.

I don't remember saying that they're better than residential academies...

And PN, thanks for your post. One of my favorite cocktail party games is to go as long as I can without asking someone where he works or where she went to college. I avoid asking the second for as long as I can when getting to know someone.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 27, 2022, 06:30:34 PM
But that part of Rogers Park isn't exactly a destination neighborhood for yuppies. I'll never forget when my youngest brother and his wife moved into an apartment in South Rogers Park, two blocks from the Loyola campus, with the help of me and our parents. Right up the street I watched a crack deal take place in broad daylight on the sidewalk. I was horrified, but, fortunately my mother either missed it or was too naive to recognize what was happening.

Rogers Park and Edgewater along the lake are great neighborhoods.

And yuppies love Metropolis Coffee.

They are affluent neighborhoods by my standards, but I work in education so the baristas probably make more than I do.

It is a shame that they bulldozed the on-campus soccer field to build a smaller multipurpose field only to rent a field from one of the parish schools a mile away or whatever the arrangement is.

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on October 27, 2022, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

Half of those listed above are prep schools. Two have it in their name. Who's limiting the conversation to New England prep schools?

FFS, can we take the prep school/NESCAC conversation to its own thread already? WTF???

Re Salisbury, which was discussed a few pages ago -- it's a soccer recruiting problem there, not a sports recruiting problem generally. Salisbury Men's Lacrosse is an elite national program, with 9 Men's Lax national championships since 2000, and was the runner-up 6 additional times in the same period. The school presumably has no problem attracting the players it wants in lax.

Quote from: midwest on October 27, 2022, 10:20:04 PM
Re Salisbury, which was discussed a few pages ago -- it's a soccer recruiting problem there, not a sports recruiting problem generally. Salisbury Men's Lacrosse is an elite national program, with 9 Men's Lax national championships since 2000, and was the runner-up 6 additional times in the same period. The school presumably has no problem attracting the players it wants in lax.

And Baseball won the National Championship in 2021 and were runners up last year.
And Basketball was in the Tournament 4 of the last 6 years
And Football was in the Tournament 6 of last 12 years

Soccer has been in the tournament 13 out of 17 years between '99-'15. But then Coach DiBartolo left and the program hasn't been the same since:
2016   Alex Hargrove   7-8-1
2017   Alex Hargrove   8-9-3   
2018   Alex Hargrove   11-4-3   
2019   Alex Hargrove   9-9-1   
2020   Scott Buete   0-0
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Quote from: midwest on October 27, 2022, 10:20:04 PM
Re Salisbury, which was discussed a few pages ago -- it's a soccer recruiting problem there, not a sports recruiting problem generally. Salisbury Men's Lacrosse is an elite national program, with 9 Men's Lax national championships since 2000, and was the runner-up 6 additional times in the same period. The school presumably has no problem attracting the players it wants in lax.

I don't know what this means in terms of this small world some of us here inhabit, but I had no clue Salisbury has won a bunch of national titles in lacrosse...or even one until seeing this.

This thread also made me look up the new Trinity (CT) coach.  In his first year so hasn't had time to do his own recruiting but looks like an extremely impressive guy.

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 09:43:21 PM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on October 27, 2022, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

Half of those listed above are prep schools. Two have it in their name. Who's limiting the conversation to New England prep schools?

As someone who attended Seton Hall Prep, I can tell you it is not an exclusive prep school, despite the name.  I assume that prep schools include NEPSAC teams or boarding schools or both.  If I am wrong, my apologies.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2022, 10:55:49 PM

Quote from: midwest on October 27, 2022, 10:20:04 PM
Re Salisbury, which was discussed a few pages ago -- it's a soccer recruiting problem there, not a sports recruiting problem generally. Salisbury Men's Lacrosse is an elite national program, with 9 Men's Lax national championships since 2000, and was the runner-up 6 additional times in the same period. The school presumably has no problem attracting the players it wants in lax.

I don't know what this means in terms of this small world some of us here inhabit, but I had no clue Salisbury has won a bunch of national titles in lacrosse...or even one until seeing this.

This thread also made me look up the new Trinity (CT) coach.  In his first year so hasn't had time to do his own recruiting but looks like an extremely impressive guy.

Womens and Mens lacrosse.  Been a powerhouse for many years.  Being in Maryland you can't miss it.  https://suseagulls.com/sports/2022/7/27/mens-lacrosse-program-highlights.aspx

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on October 27, 2022, 11:17:22 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 09:43:21 PM

Quote from: College Soccer Observer on October 27, 2022, 09:39:24 PM

Quote from: Maine Soccer Fan on October 27, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Exclusive prep schools have become great places to develop as a soccer player. These are the feeder schools to exclusive colleges. For fun I try to find a kid on a NESCAC roster who didn't go to a prep school, it isn't easy. I'm guessing 75% are from exclusive prep schools.

My wife went to a NESCAC school, she said for the first three weeks everyone asked each other, "Where did you go to school." A public high school wasn't the expected answer...

Middlebury has a large majority of its roster who did not attend New England Prep schools. 
If you take their normal starting lineup:
Deerfield IL HS
New Trier HS (IL)
Suffield HS (CT)
U New Hampshire (transfer)
Durham Academy (NC)
Seton Hall Prep (NJ--Catholic School)
South Kent School (CT--Prep school)
England
Niles North HS (IL)
Bullis School (MD--private school)
Sacred Heart Prep (CA--Catholic School)

Half of those listed above are prep schools. Two have it in their name. Who's limiting the conversation to New England prep schools?

As someone who attended Seton Hall Prep, I can tell you it is not an exclusive prep school, despite the name.  I assume that prep schools include NEPSAC teams or boarding schools or both.  If I am wrong, my apologies.

I went to a similar school, St. John's Prep in Massachusetts and despite the Prep in the name it's no longer an exclusive Prep school in the vein of a Loomis or Phillips Andover.  So schools with a "Prep" in there name aren't necessarily considered exclusive prep schools.  And now enough of this prep school talk, please. 

Somebody a few pages back mentioned ECSU as a possible team that should be better and as a current CT resident I have to agree with that.  Lots of soccer talent in CT but a lot of it goes elsewhere for college, but I think ECSU has an opportunity to improve it's brand within the state and New England. Some folks have mentioned coaching being an issue with some teams trailing off, and I suspect that coaching/recruiting may be an issue for ECSU.

Quote from: Ejay on October 27, 2022, 10:07:29 PM
FFS, can we take the prep school/NESCAC conversation to its own thread already? WTF???

Ha!

Simple Coach,  Schools to look at that I suggest are the PAC schools.  They never seem to have the same schools appearing in the NCCA ABid.

21 Bethany
19 W&J
18 Westminster
17 Thomas Moore
16 Geneva
15 Westminster

Not since Thomas Moore left the conference for NAIA has any school been a regular participant in the NCAA's.  My question would be is the conference that strong and with lots of equality or is their players transferring, new coaches, etc. 

This Grove City is 10-0 in the conference.

Any thoughts for the board?

I was just looking at the SLIAC schools.  Webster is the best at 12-2-3, but they are still ranked 185 by Massey. 

The regional Division II and NAIA programs often do well with a mixture of Kansas City, St. Louis and international players. The St. Louis region is a soccer hotbed with three Universities that have won national championships.

I am a little surprised that one of the SLIAC teams has not taken their soccer program to the next level.

Just in terms of the project at hand, that's another good way for SC to try and approach this. Where are the traditional soccer hotbeds and then lay the D3 map on top of that. We've kind of gone through a few of the MD schools. Someone else did a little bit on VA... PA is pretty well covered with all the Fords, Muhles and Swat talk.

Jersey and NJAC? MI is certainly a hotbed... I don't have a great handle on the D3 scene up there.

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I have a kid at Camden and went to the Rowan game this season, I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Curious how your kid ended up at Camden? What other options did he consider, and ultimately what convinced him Camden was the right fit? Is it working out as he'd hoped?

Quote from: Ejay on October 30, 2022, 01:30:45 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I have a kid at Camden and went to the Rowan game this season, I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Curious how your kid ended up at Camden? What other options did he consider, and ultimately what convinced him Camden was the right fit? Is it working out as he'd hoped?

He is in Law school and had a year of eligibility remaining, got into some better schools but wanted to play since he did not see much action at D1, he is enjoying the game part so far. I think he could play again next year but wont.

Quote from: camosfan on October 30, 2022, 02:26:14 PM

Quote from: Ejay on October 30, 2022, 01:30:45 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I have a kid at Camden and went to the Rowan game this season, I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Curious how your kid ended up at Camden? What other options did he consider, and ultimately what convinced him Camden was the right fit? Is it working out as he'd hoped?

He is in Law school and had a year of eligibility remaining, got into some better schools but wanted to play since he did not see much action at D1, he is enjoying the game part so far. I think he could play again next year but wont.

Impressive! Combining Law School with soccer can't be an easy feat. Glad it's working out and that he's having a good experience!

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Rowan received a $500 Million gift that has led to a lot of what Rowan is now able to do.  Think at the time it was the single largest gift to a University.... hence they name change to Rowan from Glassboro State University.

Quote from: SimpleCoach on October 30, 2022, 03:45:11 PM

Quote from: camosfan on October 27, 2022, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 27, 2022, 12:57:24 PM
How does one recruit to Camden,NJ? The 2013 team had a couple transfers from Rutgers did they not?

I could not believe the obvious disparity in spending between the two state institutions.

Rowan received a $500 Million gift that has led to a lot of what Rowan is now able to do.  Think at the time it was the single largest gift to a University.... hence they name change to Rowan from Glassboro State University.

Thanks! really impressive facilities.

Yeah, when we played them they were Glasboro State.