This site ranked the top D3 Rivalries. I have no idea what criteria they used, but it's presumably based upon all sports and includes both men's and women's sports.
https://twitter.com/D3SportsData/status/1685335535957770240?s=20
Calvin v. Hope
Hampden-Sydney v. Randolph-Macon
Augsburg v. Watburg
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps v. Pomona-Pitzer
Ithaca v. Suny Cortland
Wittenberg v. Wooster
What would be your top D3 men's soccer rivalries? Here's a stab at a few good ones based on different criteria.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps v. Pomona-Pitzer (the closest? - they are literally across the street, hence the Sixth Street Rivalry name)
Haverford v. Swarthmore (The oldest? They first started playing against each other in 1919. Also might be the friendliest rivalry - what else for two schools with Quaker - or Society of Friends - roots? )
Amherst v. ? (the most popular rival? Amherst seems to be like the Yankees. A lot of teams - e.g., Tufts, Bowdoin etc -- call them rivals based on a Google search, but it seems like Amherst mostly considers Williams their rivals)
Kenyon v. Ohio Wesleyan (The @PaulNewman rivalry - but long before him, my brother, a Kenyon player in the 1970s, maintained that they were the fiercest of rivals, even though OWU mostly had their number in those days)
Others?
North Park v. Wheaton
In the '80s and '90s, the other CCIW men's soccer programs were nothing more than a series of speed bumps that Wheaton annually drove across on its way to the D3 tournament. That began to change around the turn of the millennium after North Park had hired John Born to run its men's soccer program. By the late Teens, Wheaton students were showing up for games wearing orange shirts that said BEAT NORTH PARK on them.
There have been other solid programs in recent years in the CCIW (Carthage for quite a while, North Central nowadays), but this is the men's soccer rivalry in this neck of the woods.
This Kuiper dude, man...high quality trolling...and of course Sager and I are here for it. Don't even need to put any bait on to hook me in...just cast the line and I'm yours!
First of all, Kuiper, you're so presumptuous and will be embarrassed that you didn't do enough homework. I was at Kenyon well, well before your brother. For example I was there for the tragic Fire of 1949 when the most iconic building on campus burned to the ground and numerous students perished. Secondly, I had a pretty decent career and was in a film or two.
http://bulletin-archive.kenyon.edu/x2974.html
Like the top programs theme, I think one must have two categories or else the nostalgia buffs will freak out. Best and biggest rivalries historically...and best and biggest currently. And certainly in some cases rivalries land highly on both lists.
Historically, it's hard to top Williams vs Amherst...but currently I'd put Amherst vs Tufts ahead of that one.
North Park vs Wheaton clearly is a great one, especially historically and also currently (with the caveat that Wheaton slippage in recent years should be factored in).
OWU vs Kenyon certainly qualifies historically, but I doubt even the Kenyon glory days from the late 80s thru most of the 90s matches the current intensity...which imho puts OWU-Kenyon on pretty equal footing with Amherst-Tufts.
In Great Lakes region (now Region VII) would be a major omission not to mention DePauw vs Wabash. Basically have to include any rivalry that involves a Bell, or Jug, or marshmellows, or whatever. Rumor has it that some of the DePauw-Wabash frat pranks (stealing the Bell in the middle of the night) rivals some Duke-UNC antics.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 09:58:21 AM
This Kuiper dude, man...high quality trolling...and of course Sager and I are here for it. Don't even need to put any bait on to hook me in...just cast the line and I'm yours!
First of all, Kuiper, you're so presumptuous and will be embarrassed that you didn't do enough homework. I was at Kenyon well, well before your brother. For example I was there for the tragic Fire of 1949 when the most iconic building on campus burned to the ground and numerous students perished. Secondly, I had a pretty decent career and was in a film or two.
http://bulletin-archive.kenyon.edu/x2974.html
Like the top programs theme, I think one must have two categories or else the nostalgia buffs will freak out. Best and biggest rivalries historically...and best and biggest currently. And certainly in some cases rivalries land highly on both lists.
Historically, it's hard to top Williams vs Amherst...but currently I'd put Amherst vs Tufts ahead of that one.
North Park vs Wheaton clearly is a great one, especially historically and also currently (with the caveat that Wheaton slippage in recent years should be factored in).
OWU vs Kenyon certainly qualifies historically, but I doubt even the Kenyon glory days from the late 80s thru most of the 90s matches the current intensity...which imho puts OWU-Kenyon on pretty equal footing with Amherst-Tufts.
In Great Lakes region (now Region VII) would be a major omission not to mention DePauw vs Wabash. Basically have to include any rivalry that involves a Bell, or Jug, or marshmellows, or whatever. Rumor has it that some of the DePauw-Wabash frat pranks (stealing the Bell in the middle of the night) rivals some Duke-UNC antics.
No trolling intended (honest!). I was just reacting to the tweet with the poll listed. Well, maybe I was trolling with the Kenyon - OWU reference, but it's not like I wouldn't have put those schools on the list anyway and it's not as if you wouldn't have added something about that.
It would be interesting to hear which schools actually have a bell or jug or at least a rivalry name. If you go by attendance, you might think Lebanon Valley v. Messiah was a big rivalry, but I think that's just because Messiah brings out a lot of people regardless and the two schools are fairly close together. If it is a rivalry, it's a one-sided one in that case.
If you're listing historic rivalries of schools that are also very close together and the rivalry wasn't one-sided historically, you probably would want to include SUNY Oneonta v. Hartwick College (which are a few minutes apart in the city). Hartwick College was one of the top teams in the country in their day and Oneonta was right there with them and the results were fairly even over the years. They played this past fall for the first time since 2005 (with Oneonta dominating 5-1), but even with the passage of time they still talked about it as "rekindl[ing] the feud."
Speaking of the "real" Paul Newman, my brothers and I actually all attended the same elementary school as Paul Newman and his Mom still lived nearby (we moved away after elementary, so I didn't also go to the same high school as Newman like my older brothers). According to my Kenyon brother (who may have been pulling my leg), Paul Newman carved his name in the desk my brother was assigned one year in elementary school.
I highly recommend you find that desk and take it to Pawn Stars...
A few I don't have a sense for...
Skidmore-RPI (artists vs engineers)...and then there's Union right there too...
VWU-CNU
Not sure who is Montclair's biggest rival in NJAC
Is Sewanee-Rhodes a thing?
Hopkins vs F&M up and coming?
Gettysburg-Dickinson?
Any pairing involving the Maine NESCACs...
Lynchburg-Roanoke? Not sure about W&L as my gut response would be Davidson but that doesn't work...
Biggest rivalry in the UAA?
Pac NW?
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?
Speaking of Oneonta....Oneonta vs Cortland?
Cortland and Ithaca!
https://www.cortacajug.com/history
Chicago v. Wash U.
Quote from: SKUD on July 30, 2023, 12:12:09 PM
Cortland and Ithaca!
https://www.cortacajug.com/history
Nice one...I'm sure a good number of these are more related to football...
The rivalry game between Wabash and DePauw began in 1890 and is among the oldest college football rivalries. The hit 1904 play The College Widow, and its subsequent film adaptations, were loosely based on the rivalry.[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monon_Bell
A little more color on DPU-Wabash from DPU website...
Since the schools are only 28 miles apart, the adversaries in the game are often brothers, cousins, high school classmates or good friends, adding to the rivalry's intensity. The bell has been stolen at least eight times from its temporary owners, but the most famous "thefts" may have occurred in the mid-1960s.
In 1965, a Wabash student appeared on the DePauw campus posing as a Mexican dignitary and interested in developing an exchange program with DePauw. While meeting with the University president he asked to see the bell. After learning of its whereabouts, the student returned with friends later and stole it.
DePauw got the bell back in time for the game which the Tigers won 9-7. DePauw students, hoping to keep the bell safely under wraps, stole it from their own school the week after the game and secretly buried it for 11 months in the north end zone of Blackstock Stadium. Only a handful of DePauw students knew of its location. But an unexpected problem arose prior to the big game. The ground froze that week in Greencastle, and the students were barely able to recover it in time for the Wabash team to claim it as the game ended in near darkness.
The Monon Bell game is more than just a game. The week preceding the annual contest has included shared activities between the two schools, such as concerts, debates, an intramural all-star football game, an alumni football game the morning of the varsity contest and other events.
In 1985, Jim Ibbotson, a member of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and a 1969 graduate of DePauw, arranged and recorded "The Ballad of the Monon Bell" which was written by 1968 DePauw graduate and football player Darel Lindquist. Nancy Ford Charles '57 wrote the original music for the ballad. A video was also produced with "The Ballad".
The media have long understood the special nature of this famous small college battle. In addition to Sports Illustrated's extensive coverage in 1973, CBS-TV's Charles Kuralt did a feature on the game during his "Sunday Morning" show in 1979, ABC-TV aired it as a regional telecast in 1977 and the Christian Science Monitor praised it in a 1981 feature. The November 13, 1987, edition of USA Today highlighted the rivalry in a feature story in its sports section and in 1988 the CBS Radio Network aired a feature on the rivalry throughout the nation. The 1998 contest was covered as a feature in the Wall Street Journal and the 1999 contest was feature on Fox Sports Net's weekly show, The Slant. The centennial game also was featured in the November 22, 1993, issue of Sports Illustrated.
The game is regularly telecast live to combined alumni meetings of the two schools in cities across the country and on networks including on ABC-TV in 1977, ESPN2 in 1994 and AXS TV (formerly HDNet) in 2003 and 2006 through 2016. The 2017, 2018 and 2019 games were televised by FOX Sports Indiana. The 2004 and 2005 games were telecast nationally on DirecTV. The 2021 and 2022 games were carried by ISC Sports Network.
Less Skidmore-RPI and more RPI-Union, in football it's referred to as the Shoes game. That's a much bigger rivalry than between those schools and Skidmore. But in recent years that's mostly been confined to football. For this region Oneonta-Cortland is pretty decent, but I don't know if it's true rivalry status in the sense of what I think a true rivalry is. SLU-Cortland is probably similar to Oneonta-Cortland, they've played each other every year for the past 11 seasons.
Back in the day SLU-Plattsburgh was a legit rivalry, some phenomenal physical and chippy games between Durocher and Waterbury. Saint of Old can attest to that.
Quote from: stlawus on July 30, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
Less Skidmore-RPI and more RPI-Union, in football it's referred to as the Shoes game. That's a much bigger rivalry than between those schools and Skidmore. But in recent years that's mostly been confined to football. For this region Oneonta-Cortland is pretty decent, but I don't know if it's true rivalry status in the sense of what I think a true rivalry is. SLU-Cortland is probably similar to Oneonta-Cortland, they've played each other every year for the past 11 seasons.
Back in the day SLU-Plattsburgh was a legit rivalry, some phenomenal physical and chippy games between Durocher and Waterbury. Saint of Old can attest to that.
Yes, I also blanked on RPI and Union both playing D1 hockey. I know hockey is huge at RPI and I think Union recently won a national title or at least made a Frozen Four. Also had forgotten that SLU and Clarkson are D1 hockey.
Mine with most of this board :)
Quote from: EnmoreCat on July 30, 2023, 03:17:19 PM
Mine with most of this board :)
Lol.
Washington and Lee's rival is Lynchburg.
NESCAC rivalries are an interesting consideration. Williams v Amherst is obvious and has an ancient history. There's also the Little Three of Williams, Amherst, and Wesleyan across multiple sports. There really isn't a Maine rivalry...although the CBB (Colby, Bates, Bowdoin) is big in football. And the Bowdoin v Colby men's ice hockey rivalry is fierce and sells both arenas out each year. Others?
SLU vs Clarkson. Rt 11 rivalry. Don't how it is today but it was a big one especially in hockey that carried over to other sports.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
Biggest rivalry in the UAA?
I think the answer varies season to season depending on who is winning.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 09:58:21 AMBasically have to include any rivalry that involves a Bell, or Jug, or marshmellows, or whatever.
Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports. Some certainly do (DePauw v. Wabash, for instance), but some don't. North Central and Wheaton play every year for the Little Brass Bell, a trophy rivalry so ancient it dates back to when the villages of Naperville and Wheaton were still fighting over which would be the county seat of DuPage County in northeastern Illinois, and it is extremely intense and competitive, given that those two schools are (coincidentally) the two top powers in CCIW football and have been so for a number of years. Yet the intensity of the rivalry is far less in other sports; Wheaton considers its top soccer rival to be North Park and its top basketball rival to be Illinois Wesleyan.
The biggest and best basketball rivalry in D3 -- outstripping even Amherst v. Williams and DePauw v. Wabash -- is Calvin v. Hope, and that's a rivalry that doesn't even have a football component (although Calvin is finally knuckling under and starting a football program that will take the field for the first time in 2024, invalidating all of those Calvin t-shirts that say "Calvin football -- undefeated since 1876"). Their rivalry is referred to in western Michigan as The Rivalry (capital T, capital R), which sounds presumptuous but definitely lives up to its title. And it absolutely does bleed over into other sports, as Calvin and Hope could face each other in horseshoes or Settlers of Catan and it would still be hyped up by both schools beyond all reasonableness. They have a rivalry similar to RPI vs. Union in that they're just a half-hour's drive from each other and both share a Dutch heritage (RPI and Union play for the Dutchman's Shoes trophy), but Calvin v. Hope is also deepened by a religious element; each school represents one of the two American Protestant denominations of Reformed heritage that sprang from Dutch immigration to the U.S., the Reformed Church of America (Hope) and the Christian Reformed Church (Calvin). And, because historically both schools have been dominated by relatively local-based student bodies (western Michigan is awash in shoes -- "shoes" being the preferred, benign ethnic term for Dutch-Americans), it often seems as though everybody at Calvin has friends and/or family who are Hope people, or at least has Hope student/alumni acquaintances, and vice-versa.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 09:58:21 AM
North Park vs Wheaton clearly is a great one, especially historically and also currently (with the caveat that Wheaton slippage in recent years should be factored in).
Wheaton's slippage hasn't affected the rivalry in any way whatsoever. It's still the most well-attended game each year for both schools, and Wheaton has managed to hold its own against the Vikings in recent seasons despite fielding inferior teams. Wheaton defeated NPU in the regular season last year in Chicago, although the Vikings got their revenge on Wheaton's home pitch in the CCIW tournament semifinals. The year before, it was reversed: North Park beat Wheaton in the regular season in Wheaton, and Wheaton knocked CCIW champion North Park out of the league tournament in Chicago in the semis.
John Born was hired by North Park prior to the 1999 season to take over a team that had won one game in 1998. From the inception of North Park soccer in 1981 through '98, the Vikings lost all 18 games they played against Wheaton, with WC outscoring the Vikings 79-7 over that stretch. North Park didn't even score a goal against Wheaton until the seventh game between the two programs. That was pretty typical of what Wheaton did against
every CCIW opponent in the '80s and '90s, not just North Park. In English soccer terms, the Crusaders (that was Wheaton's nickname until 2002 or thereabouts) were a Premier League team while the other CCIW programs were National League teams. But since Born took over (and then passed the baton to his protege Kris Grahn), the series has been pretty even; Wheaton leads 15-13-5 and currently holds a ten-goal lead over NPU over that stretch of 33 games. Over that span of 23 seasons since Born was hired, Wheaton has won 11 CCIW titles (although none since 2015) and North Park has won 7.
Quote from: stlawus on July 30, 2023, 01:31:12 PMFor this region Oneonta-Cortland is pretty decent, but I don't know if it's true rivalry status in the sense of what I think a true rivalry is.
It ought to be, as not only do the two SUNY schools share a conference, they also share a nickname: Red Dragons.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?
Trinity (TX)'s traditional rival is Southwestern, from what I've been told, but I don't know if that carries over into soccer or not.
+k Mr. Sager...great stuff.
Just one clarification from my pov...I think one can argue that rivalry can mean rivalry internal to the two schools which survives and outlives down periods on either side while externally I'm likely to focus on which rivalries are most intense and relevant currently.... notwithstanding the "on any given day" or "you can toss out the records for this one" a la Keith Jackson.
More simply, to borrow a prior example....Williams vs Amherst I'm sure hasn't diminished for the schools themselves and those most directly connected to the schools while externally one can argue that Amherst vs Tufts in recent years has been the bigger rivalry currently at least from a national and/or neutral perspective.
Fwiw, I'm far more enthralled with the budding NP vs NCU rivalry currently than I am NP vs Wheaton even tho I know historically the former isn't in the same universe.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports.
I find this to be one of the more interesting aspects of small college rivalries.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 31, 2023, 01:32:05 PM
+k Mr. Sager...great stuff.
Just one clarification from my pov...I think one can argue that rivalry can mean rivalry internal to the two schools which survives and outlives down periods on either side while externally I'm likely to focus on which rivalries are most intense and relevant currently.... notwithstanding the "on any given day" or "you can toss out the records for this one" a la Keith Jackson.
More simply, to borrow a prior example....Williams vs Amherst I'm sure hasn't diminished for the schools themselves and those most directly connected to the schools while externally one can argue that Amherst vs Tufts in recent years has been the bigger rivalry currently at least from a national and/or neutral perspective.
That's fair, although I think that most people interpret "rivalry" in the first sense: a long-standing affair of bad blood between two teams and/or their supporters. I do agree that it's probably useful to note that "rivalry" may in a subtle way be one of those words that incorporates two distinct meanings.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 31, 2023, 01:32:05 PMFwiw, I'm far more enthralled with the budding NP vs NCU rivalry currently than I am NP vs Wheaton even tho I know historically the former isn't in the same universe.
It's "NPU vs. NCC" -- North Central (MN) is NCU, and North Central (IL) is NCC -- and, if I may toot my own horn a bit here, I am doing my best to push the new paradigm of Vikings-versus-Cardinals being the primo dustup
du jour in CCIW soccer in spite of the fact that NPU vs. Wheaton is (and probably will always be) the biggest rivalry. I'm doing it by noting that NCC head coach Enzo Fuschino, an Italian immigrant, has taken to importing
altissima qualità international players from his homeland such as Matteo Innocenti, Jacobo de Collibus, and Edoardo Bonifacio that are definitely helping to shift the CCIW's power dynamic, while NPU head coach Kris Grahn, a native of Sweden, has not only continued the long-standing North Park practice of featuring players from Sweden and Norway, he's currently opening the spigot on the flow of players from Scandinavia from "stream" to "flood".
My contribution, which I plan to use on the air early and often this fall, is to give NPU men's soccer versus NCC men's soccer a name: the Meatball Rivalry.
It's
köttbullar versus
polpette. Let the best miniature sphere of ground meat win!
(https://www.lecker-gekocht.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/koettbullar-1024x683.jpg)
(https://www.lemeravigliedicicetta.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Immagini-torte-3363.jpg)
Quote from: WUPHF on July 31, 2023, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 12:27:33 PM
Football trophy rivalries, for all their intensity, don't necessarily carry over to other sports.
I find this to be one of the more interesting aspects of small college rivalries.
If I had to hazard a theory for that, it would have something to do with the fact that football isn't the 500-pound gorilla in D3 and the NAIA that it is on the D1 level. Football doesn't bring in the beaucoup bucks for the athletic departments of small colleges that it does for the big boys, which means that small colleges tend to have more balance when it comes to identity issues. Football still draws more fans than other sports on the small-school level, and it (naturally) has a bigger presence within the student body itself, but it's not as though D3 and NAIA schools are practically synonymous with their football teams the way that they are at the FBS level in D1. I don't think that even Mount Union has ever been viewed as a football team with a school attached to it, unlike, say, Alabama or LSU or Penn State.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 29, 2023, 10:29:45 PM
North Park v. Wheaton
In the '80s and '90s, the other CCIW men's soccer programs were nothing more than a series of speed bumps that Wheaton annually drove across on its way to the D3 tournament. That began to change around the turn of the millennium after North Park had hired John Born to run its men's soccer program. By the late Teens, Wheaton students were showing up for games wearing orange shirts that said BEAT NORTH PARK on them.
There have been other solid programs in recent years in the CCIW (Carthage for quite a while, North Central nowadays), but this is the men's soccer rivalry in this neck of the woods.
Best chant I ever heard when officiating a Wheaton vs North Park game at North Park in the 2000's came from the North Park student section. "We go to chapel because we want to, not because we have to"
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
I highly recommend you find that desk and take it to Pawn Stars...
A few I don't have a sense for...
Pac NW?
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?
As to the Pacific NW, I think Pacific Lutheran v. Puget Sound may be the biggest historic rivalry, although Pacific Lutheran and Willamette have been big games more recently.
I don't think Trinity v. Colorado College has been a rivalry per se, although they have had great games and I think most teams in the SCAC would consider the Trinity game a big game because of their historic dominance. As someone else said, Southwestern has probably been Trinity's historic rival, although St. Thomas v. Trinity has quickly become a big game in the SCAC very recently.
Quote from: Kuiper on July 31, 2023, 11:22:12 PM
[...]
I don't think Trinity v. Colorado College has been a rivalry per se, although they have had great games and I think most teams in the SCAC would consider the Trinity game a big game because of their historic dominance. As someone else said, Southwestern has probably been Trinity's historic rival, although St. Thomas v. Trinity has quickly become a big game in the SCAC very recently.
Agree. CC and SW are generally "rivals" in most sports because they are the two SCAC schools which have given Trinity the greatest challenges over time; StT more recently in men's soccer. For whatever reason there aren't really any big rivals in the sense PN is looking for (in any sport) down there. Part of it comes from there not really being a lot of student support in most of them until fairly recently, another from virtually none of the millions in the metro giving a rat's ass about the school, preferring to chase the shiny balls of the two recent local additions to the D1 ranks.
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
Hopkins vs F&M up and coming?
Having watched two JHU v. F&M in person and spoken to several people, I would say yes at least on the F&M side. Whoever wins gets a big boost for their season. It is probably an internal team rivalry more than student population. Last ten years, 10 regular season and 4 post season, 7 F&M wins, 2 ties and 5 loses.
One rivalry which may have bigger is earlier for F&M when Elizabethtown had more success is the Elizabethtown v. F&M rivalry game where whoever wins gets the "Smith-Herr" Trophy which the guys call the "Golden Boot." https://godiplomats.com/news/2022/9/10/9_10_2022_220.aspx Check out the picture. Elizabethtown definitely dominated early and now it has been more F&M.
Established in 1978, the trophy is to memorialize the memories of former F&M coach Robert Smith and longtime Elizabethtown Athletic Director Ira Herr. The Bronze Boot is a bronzed soccer shoe originally worn by Al Hershey, who played for the Jays and later coached at Franklin & Marshall.
Just to tie together F&M rivalries, Elizabethtown and JHU are "Blue Jays." So they might just be a natural rivalries of F&M.
As to W&L's rivalries, Hampden Sqidney was the team to beat in any competition in my day. W&L and the Squids were two of last all-male colleges at that time.
Soccer wise now, I would say W&L's rivals are either Lynchburg or Roanoke or both depending on how they are playing. All three have excellent coaches with W&L getting the best of three.
W&L is a bit of anomaly in ODAC as it has really hard academics and so you would think it would not have great sports. However, since it has excellent academics, it can recruit from all over the US as opposed to ODAC which is usually limited to recruiting VA, WVA, NC and MD players.
I think some of the assumptions about traditional rivalries from people unfamiliar with an area are based on the fact that universities that have similar academics/student bodies are natural rivals. For example, in Minnesota it might be Macalester v. Carleton, which, like W&L, also both recruit more nationally than some other schools that might be more Minnesota focused. I recently had an opportunity to ask a Macalester player whether Carleton was the big rival. He agreed that it was a big game, but he also mentioned St. Olaf and Gustavus Adolphus. I took that to mean that they are big games because they have been the "teams to beat" in the conference more than that there are historic bragging rights at stake like with a cross-town rival or something like that. In fact,on the latter front, it might be that Carleton and St. Olaf are bigger rivals since they are only 5 minutes away from each other in Northfield, MN.
Glad for another W&L supporter on the board!
I would just add that not only does W&L recruit nationally, they have a few international players as well.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 31, 2023, 03:52:24 PM
If I had to hazard a theory for that, it would have something to do with the fact that football isn't the 500-pound gorilla in D3 and the NAIA that it is on the D1 level. Football doesn't bring in the beaucoup bucks for the athletic departments of small colleges that it does for the big boys, which means that small colleges tend to have more balance when it comes to identity issues. Football still draws more fans than other sports on the small-school level, and it (naturally) has a bigger presence within the student body itself, but it's not as though D3 and NAIA schools are practically synonymous with their football teams the way that they are at the FBS level in D1. I don't think that even Mount Union has ever been viewed as a football team with a school attached to it, unlike, say, Alabama or LSU or Penn State.
I think this is the biggest part of the explanation, yes.
Quote from: Kuiper on August 01, 2023, 10:08:40 AM
I took that to mean that they are big games because they have been the "teams to beat" in the conference more than that there are historic bragging rights at stake like with a cross-town rival or something like that.
I said this about the UAA, but the teams to beat has to be phenomenon is surely a thing throughout the country.
It would be interesting to survey student-athletes, but I have to think that every team has 3-4 rivals. I think, for example, the Washington University players would refer to Wheaton as a rival. The Bears have played Wheaton more than almost anyone else outside the UAA, the games are always physical, almost always have regional rankings implications, etc...
Quote from: College Soccer Observer on July 31, 2023, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 29, 2023, 10:29:45 PM
North Park v. Wheaton
In the '80s and '90s, the other CCIW men's soccer programs were nothing more than a series of speed bumps that Wheaton annually drove across on its way to the D3 tournament. That began to change around the turn of the millennium after North Park had hired John Born to run its men's soccer program. By the late Teens, Wheaton students were showing up for games wearing orange shirts that said BEAT NORTH PARK on them.
There have been other solid programs in recent years in the CCIW (Carthage for quite a while, North Central nowadays), but this is the men's soccer rivalry in this neck of the woods.
Best chant I ever heard when officiating a Wheaton vs North Park game at North Park in the 2000's came from the North Park student section. "We go to chapel because we want to, not because we have to"
Not coincidentally, my all-time favorite chant. Extremely school-specific, highly esoteric, accurate, and it hit the Wheaties right where they live. ;)
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
I highly recommend you find that desk and take it to Pawn Stars...
A few I don't have a sense for...
Skidmore-RPI (artists vs engineers)...and then there's Union right there too...
VWU-CNU
Not sure who is Montclair's biggest rival in NJAC
Is Sewanee-Rhodes a thing?
Hopkins vs F&M up and coming?
Gettysburg-Dickinson?
Any pairing involving the Maine NESCACs...
Lynchburg-Roanoke? Not sure about W&L as my gut response would be Davidson but that doesn't work...
Biggest rivalry in the UAA?
Pac NW?
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?
Speaking of Oneonta....Oneonta vs Cortland?
Fun thread here. Sewanee-Rhodes is definitely a big rivalry in Tennessee. I always love the fact that Sewanee is a founding member of the SEC along with Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, and a few others. They were a national football powerhouse for many years.
Quote from: Another Mom on August 01, 2023, 10:24:13 AM
Glad for another W&L supporter on the board!
I would just add that not only does W&L recruit nationally, they have a few international players as well.
Yeah, definitely DI/II creap. Mike saw what North Park was doing several years ago with foreign players (W&L lost to North Park in the quarters in 2017).
Going to be more and more foreign players in DIII in near future. 2023 North Park roster has around 21 foreign players. https://athletics.northpark.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster Might be the wave of the future for many or at least some D3 teams.
Son played D1 soccer for his first two years. He ended up starting a little over 2/3rds of the season. His team was about 50% foreign. He regularly was one of two or three American players starting. His freshman roommate was a 21 year old Senegalese freshman. Great guy and amazing player. Also the starting 11 with my son averaged about 22 years old. This was pre-Covid.
I would agree that in recent years F&M has become Hopkins' biggest rival in soccer, but back in my day it was Swat and Haverford. And that was pretty much across the board for all sports. But both of those two schools have had patches where athletics took some dips, so over time I think rivalries have become more specific to who is good in what sport in the Centennial.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on August 01, 2023, 03:57:47 PM
Quote from: Another Mom on August 01, 2023, 10:24:13 AM
Glad for another W&L supporter on the board!
I would just add that not only does W&L recruit nationally, they have a few international players as well.
Yeah, definitely DI/II creap. Mike saw what North Park was doing several years ago with foreign players (W&L lost to North Park in the quarters in 2017).
Going to be more and more foreign players in DIII in near future. 2023 North Park roster has around 21 foreign players. https://athletics.northpark.edu/sports/mens-soccer/roster Might be the wave of the future for many or at least some D3 teams.
Not just some -- a great many of them. And it has to do with more than just soccer. A year or two from now, American colleges and universities are going to plunge over a demographic Niagara in a barrel, as the number of American eighteen-year-olds will drop off dramatically. Add in the damage that a lot of schools suffered as a result of Covid, and we'll see small colleges shutter their doors at an even steeper rate than has been the case over the past three years.
So where are the schools that are scrambling for survival going to find the students to make up for that shortfall? Overseas, that's where.
And it certainly won't hurt if those kids from overseas are good at kicking soccer balls (or at swinging golf clubs, or at spiking volleyballs, or at pole-vaulting over bars, etc.).
This will be less of an issue for Washington & Lee, which has the massive endowment and lofty academic reputation that enables it to rise above such mean concerns as drawing enough students to keep the doors open. But the W&Ls of D3 are in the minority; the humble plebeian D3 institutions that need the tuition dollars are much more numerous.
(Incidentally, what North Park has done is not "D1/D2 creep". NPU has had players from Sweden and Norway since the school's inception of varsity soccer in 1981. This should come as no surprise to anyone who is aware that North Park was founded by Swedish immigrants in the late nineteenth century, has the colors of the Swedish flag as the school colors, and bears the nickname "Vikings". There was a Swede on that very first team of Vikings back in 1981, Morgan Emanuelsson. A lot of NPU's best players over the decades have been Swedes or Norwegians; Magnus Ramstrom was a three-time All-CCIW player for North Park circa 1990-92, and three different Swedes and a Norwegian who wore North Park livery made the All-CCIW team back in the Nineties. Kris Grahn, the currrent head coach at NPU and a former USC and d3soccer.com All-American and CCIW Player of the Year, is from Sweden as well. The only difference between the NPU roster for the upcoming season and previous rosters is that Kris really struck paydirt this past off-season in his recruiting trips to Scandinavia in terms of quantity ... and here on the North Side of the Windy City we're hoping that the quality ends up matching the quantity.)
Traditionally across all sports W&L simply doesn't have an ODAC rival. H-SC's rival is R-MC, period. Roanoke and Lynchburg have each other. W&L has long been an outlier in the conference, and there really isn't a circle the game opponent every year, it's more who is the top competition at that time.
When I think of traditional rival for W&L men's sports, I usually settle on Sewanee as the best option. Weird because they haven't been in the same conference in 50+ years, but they are generally a regular OOC for many sports and align more closely in mission and values than most of the ODAC.
Quote from: TNAggie on August 01, 2023, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on July 30, 2023, 11:25:12 AM
I highly recommend you find that desk and take it to Pawn Stars...
A few I don't have a sense for...
Skidmore-RPI (artists vs engineers)...and then there's Union right there too...
VWU-CNU
Not sure who is Montclair's biggest rival in NJAC
Is Sewanee-Rhodes a thing?
Hopkins vs F&M up and coming?
Gettysburg-Dickinson?
Any pairing involving the Maine NESCACs...
Lynchburg-Roanoke? Not sure about W&L as my gut response would be Davidson but that doesn't work...
Biggest rivalry in the UAA?
Pac NW?
Is Trinity (TX) vs Colorado Coll a thing?
Speaking of Oneonta....Oneonta vs Cortland?
Fun thread here. Sewanee-Rhodes is definitely a big rivalry in Tennessee. I always love the fact that Sewanee is a founding member of the SEC along with Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, and a few others. They were a national football powerhouse for many years.
Love these trivia tidbits.
In the early 1890s Kenyon beat the mighty OSU Buckeyes four out of their first five meetings, including twice in 1893 (42-6 and 10-8). Also the series ended with the Buckeyes winning 14 straight. The final battle occurred in the infamous year of 1929 when the Buckeyes crushed the Lords 54-0.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 01, 2023, 06:53:32 PM
Love these trivia tidbits.
In the early 1890s Kenyon beat the mighty OSU Buckeyes four out of their first five meetings, including twice in 1893 (42-6 and 10-8). Also the series ended with the Buckeyes winning 14 straight. The final battle occurred in the infamous year of 1929 when the Buckeyes crushed the Lords 54-0.
The University of Chicago, which was a Big Ten gridiron power back when Amos Alonzo Stagg was the head coach, still owns all-time head-to-head football records of 20-4-1 against Indiana, 27-14-1 against Purdue, and 26-8-3 against Northwestern. Oh, and the Maroons are also 4-0 all-time against Notre Dame. Yet the Maroons are also 0-6 all-time against traditional gridiron nonentity Carleton and 0-6 against Northeastern Illinois University, an urban commuter school that fielded an NAIA football team for only the six seasons that it played Chicago, and whose field didn't even have permanent bleachers.
Nobody has weird football trivia like the U of C. Maroons halfback Jay Berwanger won the first-ever Heisman Trophy in 1935 and was the first player selected in the first-ever NFL draft -- and yet he never played a down of professional football, because George "Papa Bear" Halas's offer of a $13,500 salary was a grand and a half short of what Berwanger felt he deserved to make if he was going to play for the Chicago Bears. And, of course, the world entered the Atomic Age when the atom was split for the first time under the west stands of the original Stagg Field on December 2, 1942.
If the history of D3 were to be written, lowly Lake Forest would deserve a mention or two. They attended the initial meetings that resulted in the Big 10 conference but chose not to join. Concerns over the commitment to amateurism were one of a few reasons they chose not to join.
They were also one of the first schools to field African-American players.
Quote from: jknezek on August 01, 2023, 06:12:11 PM
Traditionally across all sports W&L simply doesn't have an ODAC rival. H-SC's rival is R-MC, period. Roanoke and Lynchburg have each other. W&L has long been an outlier in the conference, and there really isn't a circle the game opponent every year, it's more who is the top competition at that time.
When I think of traditional rival for W&L men's sports, I usually settle on Sewanee as the best option. Weird because they haven't been in the same conference in 50+ years, but they are generally a regular OOC for many sports and align more closely in mission and values than most of the ODAC.
I'm sure times have changed. During my time at W&L (84-88), we all had Hampden Sydney as our rival in all sports and in all things. Being all male until a few women entered W&L in 85, the 4 women's colleges had two options us or HS. Both W&L and HS were heavy on fraternity life and had parties every weekend and Wednesdays which added to the rivalry. So a lot of competition.
As to soccer at W&L and Sewanee, W&L has only played Sewanee 7 times and has beaten them each time.
10/11/1985 at Sewanee W 4-0 Sewanee, TN
09/27/1986 vs Sewanee W 8-0 Lexington, Va.
10/19/1996 at Sewanee W 2-1 Sewanee, TN
09/09/2005 vs Sewanee W 2-1 Cary, N.C.
09/13/2009 at Sewanee W 1-0 Sewanee, Tenn.
08/30/2014 at Sewanee W 3-0 Sewanee, Tenn.
09/10/2022 vs Sewanee W 1-0 Lexington, Va.
However, soccer-wise, W&L often plays Lynchburg and Roanoke multiple times a year (Lynchburg 2 times in 2021, 2019, 2017, 2016 Roanoke 2 times 2022, 2021, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2013). So they are playing these two teams in the regular season and then the playoffs. W&L met either Lynchburg or Roanoke in the finals 4 of the last 7 finals.
Quote from: SierraFD3soccer on August 02, 2023, 11:01:26 AM
Quote from: jknezek on August 01, 2023, 06:12:11 PM
Traditionally across all sports W&L simply doesn't have an ODAC rival. H-SC's rival is R-MC, period. Roanoke and Lynchburg have each other. W&L has long been an outlier in the conference, and there really isn't a circle the game opponent every year, it's more who is the top competition at that time.
When I think of traditional rival for W&L men's sports, I usually settle on Sewanee as the best option. Weird because they haven't been in the same conference in 50+ years, but they are generally a regular OOC for many sports and align more closely in mission and values than most of the ODAC.
I'm sure times have changed. During my time at W&L (84-88), we all had Hampden Sydney as our rival in all sports and in all things. Being all male until a few women entered W&L in 85, the 4 women's colleges had two options us or HS. Both W&L and HS were heavy on fraternity life and had parties every weekend and Wednesdays which added to the rivalry. So a lot of competition.
As to soccer at W&L and Sewanee, W&L has only played Sewanee 7 times and has beaten them each time.
10/11/1985 at Sewanee W 4-0 Sewanee, TN
09/27/1986 vs Sewanee W 8-0 Lexington, Va.
10/19/1996 at Sewanee W 2-1 Sewanee, TN
09/09/2005 vs Sewanee W 2-1 Cary, N.C.
09/13/2009 at Sewanee W 1-0 Sewanee, Tenn.
08/30/2014 at Sewanee W 3-0 Sewanee, Tenn.
09/10/2022 vs Sewanee W 1-0 Lexington, Va.
However, soccer-wise, W&L often plays Lynchburg and Roanoke multiple times a year (Lynchburg 2 times in 2021, 2019, 2017, 2016 Roanoke 2 times 2022, 2021, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2013). So they are playing these two teams in the regular season and then the playoffs. W&L met either Lynchburg or Roanoke in the finals 4 of the last 7 finals.
If you ask anyone in the ODAC who is H-SC's rival in sports the answer will come back R-MC, near 100% of the time for anyone who follows the ODAC closely. W&L just doesn't fit into that equation for H-SC. As for Sewanee, I did mention it's across all sports, not soccer specifically. And that it was something I settled on, not really something that is perfect.
Lynchburg and Roanoke have been good lately in soccer. We play them more than once in many seasons thanks to the ODAC's... less than perfect... solution to having too many men's soccer teams to do a full home and home round robin, but too few to play each school only once. Meaning teams expected to be good, are likely to be matched more than once against other teams expected to be good to try and help boost the resume for NCAA tournament selection.
So yes, Lynchburg, Roanoke, W&L have played a lot lately. But when I was there, late 90s, it was very much Va Wes that was in the mix or winning the ODAC every year. From 1989 to 2008, Va Wes was in something like 15 of 19 ODAC finals, winning 10. They had the big target on their back every year as The Game for W&L.
That to me is not a rivalry. A rivalry is a big game every time you meet, whether the teams on the field are in the mix or not. I don't see that for W&L in the ODAC across all sports. I see the big game as being whoever is the biggest fish at any time. That's not a rivalry, though it has the potential to become one, that's just gearing up to take out the top of the mountain.
And yes, I'm well aware Lynchburg has more ODAC titles than anyone, and it's not even close. A dominant run in the early days of the ODAC and consistent success ever since. Lynchburg is by far the best soccer school in ODAC history, and the only ODAC team to ever make a National Title game.
For those who remember...nothing beat Etown-Messiah in the 80s and 90s. Sadly the Falcons own the Jays now and they no longer are in the same conference so it has become a midweek game with 150-200 fans rather than Saturday afternoon/evening with 3-4,000 fans.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 29, 2023, 10:29:45 PM
North Park v. Wheaton
In the '80s and '90s, the other CCIW men's soccer programs were nothing more than a series of speed bumps that Wheaton annually drove across on its way to the D3 tournament. That began to change around the turn of the millennium after North Park had hired John Born to run its men's soccer program. By the late Teens, Wheaton students were showing up for games wearing orange shirts that said BEAT NORTH PARK on them.
There have been other solid programs in recent years in the CCIW (Carthage for quite a while, North Central nowadays), but this is the men's soccer rivalry in this neck of the woods.
I just found this link to a story about the origins and development of the North Park - Wheaton rivalry. It's interesting to read the quotes from Wheaton players who admitted that the rivalry was mostly one-sided until North Park "shocked" Wheaton in front of a large crowd in 2004
https://www.d3soccer.com/notables/2010/10/history-soccer-and-a-growing-rivalry
QuoteTouted now as a high-class rivalry thriller, the North Park-Wheaton rivalry was not always viewed as such from both sides. Being the "pinnacle" match for a North Park player, as described by former All-Regional North Parker Matthew Bond, Wheaton's players considered the match tough, but not on par with the preceding emotions North Park carried into the match. These sentiments changed in 2004, however, when in front of a large crowd. North Park shocked Wheaton 2-0 at Joe Bean Stadium. From that point, North Park proceeded to defeat Wheaton in the following three bouts, claiming the championship again in 2005 with two wins at Joe Bean Stadium.
"We never took [North Park] lightly," said former Wheaton great Justin Risma. "[The games] were always hard-fought and high-energy." Current Wheaton coach Mike Giuliano exacted the claim in saying, "Anyone who wants a Division I experience with fans and great soccer, they get that at these games as both teams have tremendous fans."
Born agrees the 'proverbial rivalry' has intensified, but believes "North Park is still probably viewed as a little brother by Wheaton," considering their rich history and consistent dominance.
I don't think that Wheaton regards North Park as the little brother anymore.
I think that they feel that the situation is a little bit more like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNBvID8PhQ) now.
Just posting this here, since this is an active thread to congratulate Gregory Sager for receiving the call to be enshrined into the North Park Viking Hall of Fame. He'll be inducted on Dec. 2nd.
Greg has been the play-by-play man, broadcasting just about every televised NPU sport for over the last decade.
Congratulations, Greg.
Well deserved and great to see North Park University bestow this honor. You are the "Cawood Ledford" of North Park athletics.
I hereby grant you 10 corrections to PaulNewman during the upcoming season for free without me recoiling into defensive reactivity. Indeed, I look forward to them.
Congrats again!
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 11, 2023, 11:24:57 AM
Congratulations, Greg.
Thanks! Much appreciated!
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 11, 2023, 11:24:57 AMWell deserved and great to see North Park University bestow this honor. You are the "Cawood Ledford" of North Park athletics.
You probably know this already, but Cawood Ledford graduated from what is now a D3 institution, Centre College.
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 11, 2023, 11:24:57 AMI hereby grant you 10 corrections to PaulNewman during the upcoming season for free without me recoiling into defensive reactivity. Indeed, I look forward to them.
This image immediately popped into my head:
(https://www.felicecalchi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/felicecalchi_ben_hur_dolphin_2_1957.jpg)
Yes, I knew he went to Centre, and I'm guessing you appreciate that putting your name in the same breath with Cawood Ledford is the highest level of compliment. He truly is one of the all-time greats in broadcasting history and my very favorite UK Wildcat person ever going back to age 6 when I would listen to UK bball play in Oxford or Starkville, MS in our carport inside my Dad's car where we got the best reception of WHAS out of Louisville. In addition to 39 years with UK bball and football, Cawood did the national radio for the men's Final Four for years and also called the Kentucky Derby for years.
As fate would have it, Cawood's last game was "the greatest college basketball game ever," the 1992 East Regional Final that UK lost 104-103 in double OT. My father in NC got tickets out of the Duke allotment, picked me up in DC, and we were sitting among the Duke fans at the Spectrum when Laettner hit "The Shot." At any rate, Cawood signed off borrowing the goodbye words of Adolph Rupp...."for all of you who have gone down the glory road with me, my eternal thanks." Six years later I used that phrase on my father's behalf for his eulogy.
Interesting tidbit...During Cawood's radio sign-off that night Coach K from Duke came over even in exaltation to soothe Big Blue Nation and praise how great UK had played while also giving a nod to Cawood and his career.
Cawood has a banner hanging in the rafters of Rupp Arena that has a big microphone on it. He is absolutely beloved across the Commonwealth by all old enough to have memories of his play-by-play. Classy, classy guy.
Here's a cut of the final sign-off that includes Coach K's gracious words...
https://soundcloud.com/tim-edwards-45/cawood-final-sign-off-with-coach-k?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
Except when he is calling North Park and Wheaton basketball... Best to turn down the volume.
Does Lehigh v Lafayette extend past football to soccer?
Quote from: LibbyMoore on August 14, 2023, 08:46:13 AM
Does Lehigh v Lafayette extend past football to soccer?
Maybe but we would be talking D1 soccer at that point.
Quote from: NEPAFAN on August 14, 2023, 09:28:54 AM
Quote from: LibbyMoore on August 14, 2023, 08:46:13 AM
Does Lehigh v Lafayette extend past football to soccer?
Maybe but we would be talking D1 soccer at that point.
And no it doesn't. At least when I was there in the early 90's. No one was rushing the field after the soccer game risking life and limb to get a piece of the goal posts like they did for football.
Ah right of course, D1. As you can tell, I wasn't an athlete, I only parent one now. Not sure I knew what D1 was as a student if you can possibly imagine!