https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/
National - Poll 1 - September 10, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 Amherst College 2 2-0-0
2 SUNY Cortland 13 5-0-0
3 Messiah University 18 3-0-0
4 University of Mary Washington 9 4-0-0
5 Kenyon College 19 3-0-1
6 Middlebury College 5 3-0-0
7 Colorado College 6 4-0-0
8 Rowan University NR 2-1-1
9 University of Chicago 7 2-1-0
10 Gustavus Adolphus College RV 3-0-1
11 Tufts University 10 2-0-0
12 Worcester Polytechnic Institute NR 4-0-0
13 Ohio Northern University 15 3-1-0
14 Dickinson College NR 4-0-0
15 Roanoke College NR 2-0-1
16 Plattsburgh State University NR 3-0-1
17 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 16 3-0-1
18 Lebanon Valley College NR 3-1-0
19 United States Coast Guard Academy NR 4-0-0
20 North Park University NR 2-0-2
21 Southwestern University NR 3-0-1
22 University of Rochester RV 1-1-1
23 Denison University NR 3-0-1
24 Wheaton College (Mass.) NR 3-1-1
25 Covenant College NR 4-0-0
Records shown are through games of September 8, 2024
Also receiving votes: Swarthmore College, Connecticut College, Bowdoin College, Trinity University (Texas), Macalester College, Hope College, Christopher Newport University, Franklin & Marshall College, Claremont-McKenna-Harvey Mudd-Scripps Colleges, John Carroll University
Rochester continues to be the Alabama of division 3 soccer. It does not matter what their results are they are always darlings of the d3 soccer powers that be.
Shut the season off right now...
I don't mind the critique and questioning of the SC Top 25. Keeps me honest and makes me want to have an iron clad understanding of where I have teams and why I do or don't rank them.
But if you have problems with mine ... mon dieau ... you have to have issues with this one.
SC
Quote from: stlawus on September 10, 2024, 03:24:07 PMRochester continues to be the Alabama of division 3 soccer. It does not matter what their results are they are always darlings of the d3 soccer powers that be.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this is more of a reflection of how the USC does it's national rankings compared to UR being given special treatment. The coaches in Region III seem to give more credit to their 2-1 loss at Cortland compared to Buffalo State's opening run against lower level teams.
All in all, it's the first poll and the rankings will work themselves out - evenly representing each region along the way.
I know it all works out in the end generally but UR seems to always end up in coaches rankings and regional rankings regardless of their results. The same exact thing happens in basketball. It's just bizarre how they always get the benefit of the doubt, especially when teams have better results than them.
Quote from: stlawus on September 11, 2024, 04:16:46 PMI know it all works out in the end generally but UR seems to always end up in coaches rankings and regional rankings regardless of their results. The same exact thing happens in basketball. It's just bizarre how they always get the benefit of the doubt, especially when teams have better results than them.
It's probably at least to some degree an artifact of Rochester's membership in the UAA, which, as in D3 men's basketball, is a powerhouse league in D3 men's soccer.
Which would make sense if they have played UAA opponents. Instead their best result is a 3-0 win against a 10 man and winless RIT. It's not that serious, I just find it incredibly amusing how much heavy lifting the idea of Rochester does for the rankings rather than the actual Rochester.
The USC rankings are nice to look at and discuss but they will have no bearing on the NPI which will be used for the Open teams that do not have an ACQ.
Will be interesting to compare and contrast NPI with USC.
https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/
Amherst goes from #1 to RV after a loss to Williams (kind of harsh if you ask me) and Messiah's two losses last week drop them from #3 to RV. Rowan may drop out of at least the top 10 next week after tying Haverford 0-0 today.
National - Poll 2 - September 17, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 4 6-0-0
2 Middlebury College 6 4-0-0
3 Colorado College 7 5-0-1
4 Kenyon College 5 3-0-2
5 Dickinson College 14 6-0-0
6 Gustavus Adolphus College 10 5-0-1
7 Tufts University 11 3-0-1
8 University of Chicago 9 4-1-0
9 Rowan University 8 2-1-2
10 SUNY Cortland 2 5-1-1
11 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 17 5-0-1
12 United States Coast Guard Academy 19 5-0-1
13 Christopher Newport University RV 4-0-2
14 Claremont-McKenna-Harvey Mudd-Scripps Colleges RV 4-0-1
15 Ohio Northern University 13 4-1-2
16 Swarthmore College RV 5-0-1
17 Plattsburgh State University 16 4-0-2
18 Hope College RV 6-1-0
19 Bowdoin College NR 3-0-1
20 Babson College NR 2-0-3
21 University of Rochester 22 3-1-1
22 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 12 5-1-0
23 John Carroll University RV 5-1-0
24 Southwestern University 21 4-0-1
25 North Park University 20 3-0-3
Records shown are through games of September 15, 2024
Also receiving votes: Amherst College, Roanoke College, Macalester College, Montclair State University, Messiah University, Lebanon Valley College
I knew the season should have stopped after week one.
Dickinson at #5... Early season rankings are fun!
Colorado College in rare air, literally and figuratively (and SC ranks them second). Has to be the highest ranking in program history.
EDIT: according to the CC story on the ranking (https://cctigers.com/news/2024/9/17/mens-soccer-cc-ranked-no-3-in-united-soccer-coaches-national-poll.aspx), it is. The story also notes the 5-0-1 start is the best since 1995.
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 18, 2024, 11:01:47 AMColorado College in rare air, literally and figuratively (and SC ranks them second). Has to be the highest ranking in program history.
EDIT: according to the CC story on the ranking (https://cctigers.com/news/2024/9/17/mens-soccer-cc-ranked-no-3-in-united-soccer-coaches-national-poll.aspx), it is. The story also notes the 5-0-1 start is the best since 1995.
Colorado College is definitely a strong team with a lot of the pieces, but they basically constructed a schedule of opponents designed to make sure they were undefeated going into the ONU and Emory games, which were played in Colorado Springs at altitude. They did well against both, but I think the make or break weekend for them in terms of national rankings will be this weekend when they play @Christopher Newport at 7 pm Eastern on Friday and then, less than 24 hours later, against Mary Washington @CNU at 5 pm Eastern on Saturday. Today is the end of Colorado College's Block 1 in their one class per month schedule. So, while they have to travel far to play in Virginia, they won't have to worry about missing classes on the trip.
This weekend will definitely be a big test...the team is leaving today, so at least there will be a rest day before the back to back games.
Rowan dropped 9 to 23. F&M jumps in. Amherst & Montclair also in after receiving votes.
National - Poll 3 - September 24, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 1 8-0-0
2 Middlebury College 2 6-0-1
3 Kenyon College 4 5-0-2
4 Gustavus Adolphus College 6 6-0-1
5 Tufts University 7 5-0-1
6 Dickinson College 5 7-0-1
7 Colorado College 3 5-1-2
8 Christopher Newport University 13 5-0-3
9 Hope College 18 7-1-0
10 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 11 6-0-2
11 United States Coast Guard Academy 12 6-0-1
12 SUNY Cortland 10 6-1-2
13 Swarthmore College 16 7-0-1
14 Ohio Northern University 15 5-1-2
15 Bowdoin College 19 4-0-1
16 Montclair State University RV 5-2-1
17 Plattsburgh State University 17 6-0-2
18 North Park University 25 5-0-3
19 Southwestern University 24 5-0-1
20 Babson College 20 3-0-4
21 University of Chicago 8 5-2-0
22 Rowan University 9 2-3-3
23 Franklin & Marshall College NR 3-0-4
24 John Carroll University 23 5-1-2
25 Amherst College RV 3-1-1
Records shown are through games of September 22, 2024
Also receiving votes: Roanoke College, University of Rochester, Macalester College, Trinity University (Texas), Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Connecticut College
UMW stays number 1, but lots of movement in the rankings otherwise. Tufts, which plays Babson today in an interesting matchup, climbs to #2
National - Poll 4 - October 1, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 1 9-0-1
2 Tufts University 5 7-0-1
3 Gustavus Adolphus College 4 8-0-1
4 Kenyon College 3 6-0-3
5 Middlebury College 2 6-0-2
6 Colorado College 7 6-1-2
7 Hope College 9 8-1-1
8 Montclair State University 16 6-2-1
9 Dickinson College 6 8-1-1
10 North Park University 18 7-0-3
11 Franklin & Marshall College 23 4-0-5
12 Babson College 20 4-0-5
13 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 10 7-1-2
14 SUNY Cortland 12 6-1-3
15 Amherst College 25 5-1-2
16 Virginia Wesleyan University NR 7-1-2
17 Denison University NR 5-1-3
18 Southwestern University 19 5-0-2
19 Swarthmore College 13 7-1-1
20 Vassar College NR 6-2-0
21 Rowan University 22 3-3-4
22 Christopher Newport University 8 5-2-3
23 Worcester Polytechnic Institute RV 6-2-2
24 Trinity University (Texas) RV 6-0-2
25 Ohio Northern University 14 6-2-2
Records shown are through games of September 29, 2024
Also receiving votes: St. Olaf College, University of Rochester, Connecticut College, Illinois Wesleyan University, Johns Hopkins University, Wheaton College (Mass.), John Carroll University
Some expected and some less expected moves. Kenyon jumps over Tufts after Tufts' tie with Babson. Gustavus Adolphus drops from 3rd to 6th after they tie Augsburg. North Park drops from 10 to 16 after losing to Wheaton (IL) and tying Millikin (expected that to be a larger drop). Vassar, on the other hand, jumps a little higher than I would have expected after wins over Bard and Skidmore (I would think those wins would have been expected wins).
National - Poll 5 - October 8, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 1 11-0-1
2 Kenyon College 4 7-0-3
3 Tufts University 2 8-0-2
4 Middlebury College 5 7-0-2
5 Colorado College 6 8-1-2
6 Gustavus Adolphus College 3 9-0-2
7 Hope College 7 8-1-1
8 Dickinson College 9 10-1-1
9 Franklin & Marshall College 11 6-0-5
10 Montclair State University 8 8-2-1
11 Babson College 12 5-0-6
12 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 13 9-1-3
13 Vassar College 20 8-2-0
14 Amherst College 15 7-1-2
15 Virginia Wesleyan University 16 9-1-2
16 North Park University 10 7-1-4
17 Denison University 17 6-1-3
18 Southwestern University 18 7-0-2
19 Rowan University 21 4-3-5
20 SUNY Oneonta NR 7-1-3
21 Wheaton College (Mass.) RV 6-3-2
22 Johns Hopkins University RV 7-2-2
23 Trinity University (Texas) 24 8-0-2
24 Ohio Northern University 25 7-2-2
25 SUNY Cortland 14 7-3-3
Records shown are through games of October 6, 2024
Also receiving votes: Connecticut College, Christopher Newport University, St. Olaf College, Swarthmore College, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, John Carroll University, Illinois Wesleyan University, Stevens Institute of Technology
Just because I said in the NPI thread that USC rankings don't matter doesn't mean they don't still provide fodder for discussion (and bragging on school Instagram posts), so here they are. As expected, Kenyon drops after losing to Denison and OWU. Hope drops after tying Calvin. F&M drops after reading the comments in the Mid-Atlantic thread tying Lebanon Valley. A few of the 5+ risers include North Park, Denison, Ohio Northern, Trinity, W&L, Williams, Southwestern and Occidental. Edgewood in the RV category is interesting. They don't have any signature wins, but they score a lot.
National - Poll 6 - October 15, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 1 13-0-1
2 Tufts University 3 9-0-2
3 Middlebury College 4 10-0-2
4 Colorado College 5 10-1-2
5 Gustavus Adolphus College 6 11-0-2
6 Dickinson College 8 11-1-1
7 Montclair State University 10 10-2-1
8 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 12 10-1-3
9 North Park University 16 9-1-4
10 Vassar College 13 9-2-0
11 Denison University 17 8-1-3
12 Amherst College 14 8-1-2
13 Franklin & Marshall College 9 7-0-6
14 Babson College 11 7-1-6
15 Hope College 7 9-1-2
16 Kenyon College 2 7-2-3
17 Ohio Northern University 24 9-2-2
18 Trinity University (Texas) 23 10-0-2
19 SUNY Oneonta 20 8-2-3
20 Washington & Lee University NR 8-3-1
21 SUNY Cortland 25 9-3-3
22 Williams College NR 8-2-2
23 Rowan University 19 5-4-5
24 Southwestern University 18 7-1-3
25 Occidental College NR 8-1-3
Records shown are through games of October 13, 2024
Also receiving votes: Wheaton College (Mass.), York College (Pa.), Virginia Wesleyan University, Johns Hopkins University, St. Olaf College, Swarthmore College, Edgewood College, Connecticut College
Hahaha, perfect reason to drop. Didn't get the job done. Fair. Just like JHU dropping out with its loss to Gettysburg. No breaks.
As I predicted in the NPI thread, Mary Washington does not drop below Tufts when humans vote, even though it did in the NPI. Not saying either is the correct result, but just pointing out the differences and how cognitive biases and rigid algorithms affect the rankings differently in this instance.
Games have consequences for the rankings. Montclair State drops from 7 to 17 after losing to Rowan and Rowan rises from 23 to 13 for that win. Similarly, Johns Hopkins rises from RV to 17 after beating F&M, while F&M drops from 13 to 23 after that loss. On the other hand, Amherst rises from 12 to 10 after beating Hamilton and losing to Tufts, suggesting that the Hamilton win more than made up for the Tufts loss.
National - Poll 7 - October 22, 2024
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 University of Mary Washington 1 13-0-1
2 Tufts University 2 10-0-3
3 Middlebury College 3 10-0-3
4 Colorado College 4 12-1-2
5 Gustavus Adolphus College 5 12-0-2
6 Dickinson College 6 12-1-2
7 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire 8 11-1-3
8 North Park University 9 11-1-4
9 Denison University 11 10-1-3
10 Amherst College 12 9-2-2
11 Babson College 14 8-1-6
12 Vassar College 10 9-2-2
13 Rowan University 23 7-4-5
14 Trinity University (Texas) 18 12-0-2
15 Kenyon College 16 9-2-3
16 Hope College 15 11-1-2
17 Johns Hopkins University RV 8-3-3
18 Ohio Northern University 17 10-2-3
19 Montclair State University 7 11-3-1
20 SUNY Cortland 21 12-3-3
21 Williams College 22 9-2-2
22 Virginia Wesleyan University NR 10-2-3
23 Franklin & Marshall College 13 7-1-6
24 Buffalo State College NR 12-1-1
25 Edgewood College RV 16-1-3
Records shown are through games of October 20, 2024
Also receiving votes: Connecticut College, Washington & Lee University, Claremont-McKenna-Harvey Mudd-Scripps Colleges, Endicott College, St. Olaf College, Wheaton College (Mass.), John Carroll University
Now that we are deep into the season my uncertainty about these polls is in overdrive. On the one hand we have this one which is subjective. On the other hand NPI is intended to be completely objective which sounds great in principle. But it seems NPI should be considered incomplete until the end of the season. And as far as I can tell the results could shake out to be significantly different from any current view. At least for the middle of the pack if not more. I'd like to think the volatility shrinks significantly over time but not sure as I stare at that table.
In the meantime social media does what it does touting favorable results. Just as it did before the first USC poll was issued this year. Not that this has any influence on my uncertainty. But I shudder to think what happens if a team celebrates a top 20 USC ranking in a late poll only to find out they miss the dance. Outrage over subjectivity in the past is one thing--maybe blame it one one or two boneheads. But good luck explaining the nuances of an algorithm in these circumstances. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think "the data says so" will go very far for the NCAA.
Maybe I should just ignore all polls for a few weeks and stick to the entertaining comments section on SC polls.
Oh, and now imagine if the USC individual awards were based on an algorithm...
^ funny!
Has anyone looked at the 2 polls next to each other and identified the greatest deltas?
Quote from: SKUD on October 22, 2024, 05:30:42 PM^ funny!
Has anyone looked at the 2 polls next to each other and identified the greatest deltas?
Williams is #6 in NPI and #21 in USC
Conn College is #8 in NPI and RV in USC
Vassar is #24 in NPI and #12 in USC
Virginia Wesleyan is #45 in NPI, but #22 in USC
There are some that are in the top 25 in NPI, but not ranked in USC
Wisconsin-Platteville is #16 in NPI
York is #18 in NPI
Wesleyan is #20 in NPI
My read on the differences is that coaches look at records, possibly game scores (but not systematically), and eye test for schools they have seen, but only have a general sense of strength-of-schedule, while NPI doesn't consider eye test or game scores and weights SoS/wins against top teams systematically. USC also has some regional representation bias, although I don't know if that is explicit or implicit in the national rankings.
As for Freddyfud's point
QuoteBut I shudder to think what happens if a team celebrates a top 20 USC ranking in a late poll only to find out they miss the dance. Outrage over subjectivity in the past is one thing--maybe blame it one one or two boneheads. But good luck explaining the nuances of an algorithm in these circumstances.
Seems like Virginia Wesleyan is the school that currently might be most at risk of being ranked nationally, but not getting a bid, although it would be hard for them to do well the rest of the season and stay ranked in the USC, without also improving their chances in the NPI
Quote from: SKUD on October 22, 2024, 05:30:42 PM^ funny!
Has anyone looked at the 2 polls next to each other and identified the greatest deltas?
That would be Rowan.
Current USC Team Delta
1 University of Mary Washington 1
2 Tufts University -1
3 Middlebury College 0
4 Colorado College 0
5 Gustavus Adolphus College 2
6 Dickinson College 5
7 University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire -2
8 North Park University 5
9 Denison University 5
10 Amherst College -6
11 Babson College -2
12 Vassar College 12
13 Rowan University 34
14 Trinity University (Texas) 1
15 Kenyon College -3
16 Hope College 3
17 Johns Hopkins University 0
18 Ohio Northern University 4
19 Montclair State University 2
20 SUNY Cortland 11
21 Williams College -15
22 Virginia Wesleyan University 23
23 Franklin & Marshall College 2
24 Buffalo State College 2
25 Edgewood College 10
Quote from: Kuiper on October 22, 2024, 05:57:53 PMSeems like Virginia Wesleyan is the school that currently might be most at risk of being ranked nationally, but not getting a bid, although it would be hard for them to do well the rest of the season and stay ranked in the USC, without also improving their chances in the NPI
See my quote posted below yours which I may have posted the same time you did (sorry!)
Is anyone yet to do the NPI/Massey deepdive comparison?
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 22, 2024, 06:38:09 PMIs anyone yet to do the NPI/Massey deepdive comparison?
I still have the spreadsheet open for the above, I could add Massey I think. Any other polls while we're at it? SC? ;D
Quote from: Freddyfud on October 22, 2024, 06:40:57 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on October 22, 2024, 06:38:09 PMIs anyone yet to do the NPI/Massey deepdive comparison?
I still have the spreadsheet open for the above, I could add Massey I think. Any other polls while we're at it? SC? ;D
Only if he submits rankings as far as 400ish.
Quote from: EnmoreCat on October 22, 2024, 07:01:09 PMQuote from: Freddyfud on October 22, 2024, 06:40:57 PMQuote from: EnmoreCat on October 22, 2024, 06:38:09 PMIs anyone yet to do the NPI/Massey deepdive comparison?
I still have the spreadsheet open for the above, I could add Massey I think. Any other polls while we're at it? SC? ;D
Only if he submits rankings as far as 400ish.
Quick manual list for top 25 below. Anything longer may interfere with my work, and I have another tuition bill due soon.
Current Massey Team Delta
1 Mary Washington 1
2 Middlebury 1
3 Tufts -2
4 Amherst 0
5 Wi Eau Claire 0
6 Colorado College 4
7 Gust Adolphus 0
8 Trinity TX 7
9 Redlands 28
10 Williams -4
11 CMS 12
12 St Olaf 17
13 Wi Platteville 3
14 North Park -1
15 Dickinson -4
16 Conn College -8
17 Kenyon -5
18 JHU -1
19 Montclair St 2
20 Macalester 21
21 Chicago 43
22 OWU 8
23 Hope -4
24 Cortland 7
25 ONU -3
Edit: Massey rank is far left, delta to NPI as at right.
What are those ^?
That Massey is voodoo economics
Quote from: SKUD on October 22, 2024, 08:20:02 PMThat Massey is voodoo economics
It factors in some measure of the last few years' worth of results (declining as the season goes on), which probably explains Chicago and St. Olaf.
Rank School Prev W-L-T
1 UMW 1 15-0-1
2 Tufts University 2 11-0-3
3 Middlebury College 3 11-0-3
4 Gustavus Adolphus 5 13-0-3
5 Colorado College 4 13-1-3
6 Dickinson College 6 13-1-3
7 UW-Eau Claire 7 12-1-3
8 Amherst College 10 9-2-2
9 North Park University 8 12-1-4
10 Denison University 9 10-1-4
11 Babson College 11 10-1-6
12 Rowan University 13 9-4-5
13 Trinity University (Texas) 14 13-0-3
14 Kenyon College 15 11-2-3
15 Johns Hopkins University 17 10-3-3
16 Hope College 16 13-1-2
17 Buffalo State College 24 14-1-2
18 SUNY Cortland 20 13-3-4
19 F&M College 23 8-1-7
20 Williams College 21 9-2-3
21 W&L University RV 9-3-4
22 Ohio Northern University 18 11-3-3
23 Edgewood College 25 18-1-3
24 University of Lynchburg NR 9-2-4
25 Plattsburgh State NR 11-2-3
Records shown are through games of October 27, 2024
Also receiving votes: Stevens Institute of Technology, Montclair State University, University of Redlands, St. Olaf College, Connecticut College, Endicott College