I think what prophet is trying to say is that it would be nice if someone would give the Pipers some credit. When they beat St. Olaf everyone was saying how it was a nice surprise but now that they're messing up everyone's pickem's by upsetting Bethel  all of a sudden it's not legit anymore. I think we should spend a little more time being positive about the good play rather than who is messing up. If Hamline beats Bethel it should be good for them(which some people did say), not that Bethel has bad "d" or Jeff Reck is out. They flat out lost a well played game on both sides. Period. They get another shot at em' over at Hutton Jan 26 and that should no doubt be another great game.

Any takers on how many the gruesome two-some put up for the Scots tonight???  My bet is 75% plus

I'll be back after the upset to hear how Nicolai's girlfriend dumped him right before the game or maybe Fritz stubbed his toe.    Have a good night everyone, drive safe!

Quote from: abominable_snowman on December 03, 2007, 12:17:25 PM

Quote from: hoops10101010 on December 03, 2007, 11:24:39 AM
AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left.

I wouldn't say this brand of basketball is new to the conference.  Over the years various teams have gone this way depending on their personnell.

Who has SMU broken down?  This also assumes SMU and Hamline will be ABLE to run up and down all night. Expect to see GAC and UST slow down the tempo and make their opponents play defense and try to play halfcourt ball.

Quote from: hoops10101010 on December 03, 2007, 11:24:39 AM
Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them.

talent vs. bigger stronger is the crux of this argument.   and also keep in mind that the score doesn't tell the whole story.  UST was a in a little funk at SMU, they missed easy passes and rebounds that normally they would have made.

Quote from: hoops10101010 on December 03, 2007, 11:24:39 AM
Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

The one man argument, though in jest is pretty important.  I would be careful saying Brink is just one man.  A team with a strong on the court leader can really do well. (Sean Sweeny, Doug Espenson come to mind)

AS- The brand of basketball may not be new to the conference, the person coaching it definitely is though. What system has tried this system that is backed by a coach that has consistently gone deep into the national tournament? Gustavus and UST are the only two teams to experience any success in the big dance in recent history and they both play a slow controlled style of ball.

Next, possibly I shouldn't say broke them down but contended with two teams that have proven to be very highly touted in the conference. UST just be WINONA STATE. A team that beat SMU by about 60 points. Not saying that it should have been that lopsided a victory but they shouldn't have had any problems with them if the numbers serve us correctly(which they usually don't )

I will go back to this time and time again but is it possible that SMU had UST doing uncharacteristic things which hindered them from playing the type of ball they were comfortable with? I wasn't at the game and it sounds like you have a pretty good feel for the game or were possibly there. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure I would draw many comparisons to Sean Sweeney and Brady Brink. Where I do think Sean was the heart and sole of that 05-06 Tommie team, he had some guys to fall back on. Schnettler, Ike, Keating...these were possibly the 3 of the best players in the conference last year not to mention Joe Shimek. I think the load on Brink's shoulders is a little bit greater than it was for Sweeney on that team. Your point is well taken that with a strong leader a team can do wonders, but a 5 person team with a great leader against a 12 person team with a very good leader may be outmatched in the wear and tear of the MIAC season.

Quote from: Drake Palmer on December 03, 2007, 11:41:37 AM
As Snow posted, Hoops1010 -- you bring up some interesting, if not valid posts, but I'd encourage you to post when the training wheels fall off, as I'm sure they will sometime this season, & not just when the baby Pipes are soaring high.  At this point I'd certainly concede the Pipers are scrappy, but I'm not so sure about the "extremely talented" part - just yet.  Johansen & Anderson need to spend much time in the weight room. 

One other nit I'd find with your post game summary – Bethel's Cory Laugen had 6 assists to just one TO, & the Oles' Steve Banick had 11 TOs to just 1 TO.  So to say Egan & Hayes gave Laugen "fits" might be a bit of a stretch. 

But with Hamline's style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  In the Ole/ Hamline game which I watched, I know Banick got a couple of assist "freebies" when he picked up the outlet pass off a defensive board, zipped the ball down court to a running Bobby Hunter, & the Pipes didn't have anybody back to prevent the leak out.

I meant to get on here in the beginning of the season but things have been hectic with the work schedule. And you're probably right, I shouldn't over exagerate the talent level of their squad because it is no better than any of the powers in the conference. That being said, it DEFINITELY isn't worse. Clute, Thrasher, Carroll, Hipp...These are all guys who can definitely contend with the front lines of any team in the conference and clearly displayed that Saturday against a highly regarded Bethel team.

Both Banick and Laugen are good heady point guards who don't lose the ball much. A fit could also be defined by pressure that doesn't allow an offense to get set up or a defense that makes a player or entire team do uncharacteristic things. A perfect example is the defense Carroll put on Madson. He ended up with 27 points but was clearly not playing his game. They were jawing the whole game and it was clearly getting to the veteran leader for the Royals. The majority of his points came on quick kickouts on rebounds and on free throws. Madson was getting a "fit".

"But with Hamline's style of play, they really try to crash the offensive boards which might be where Bethel picked up some of their assists.  ."

This was definitely the case in the Bethel game as well. I think all of Otterson's points were off transition pushes(from Laugen) for early jumpers that he knocked down. That kid can flat out shoot. On a team like that, assists don't necessarily reflect a great performance because you are always going to have guys knocking down tough shots. All you have to do is it the ball to Moberg he's bound to get you a couple, he's a stud. I unfortunately didn't get to see Banick's performance but he didn't score at all. I think I saw someone say he would have 20 points on here. Not the a point guard needs to score but like I said before, any time you get a player to do uncharacteristic things, it will be to your advantage.

Quote from: abominable_snowman on December 03, 2007, 09:13:01 AM
hoops- you have a few valid points in here. 

i also think that what this shows is that coaches with proven track records got there for a reason.  On a given night a more disciplined team can out-perform a more talented team.  Props to UST and HAM for their great starts.

But let's keep this season's mantra in mind:  The season is not a sprint.

A lot can change by February.
tonight's game will be intense.

AS-
I completely agree that the season is a long one. But is it possible that with the right motivation and direction, a team can be trained never to stop sprinting??? This conference is hitting a new brand of basketball with teams like Hamline and St. Mary's who run up and down all night, breaking their opponent down to the point they have nothing left. Although SMU doesn't have a conference win yet, they have played two of the better teams in the conference in UST and SJU down to the wire. They led UST until about 12 minutes to go in the game and SJU barrely snuck by them(by 3 I think). These are two teams who are notorious for playing a short bench. Unfortunately for SMU they don't have a high enough talent level to beat bigger stronger teams yet. I think after some struggles this year and a good off season in the weight room, they will be able to play with the best of them. Brady Brink is only one man . It will be interesting to see in the next couple of years if SMU and Hamline aren't two teams that start sneaking their way up to the top. It looks like one might be already.

It's really unfortunate to see everyone downgrading Bethel now that they lost a great basketball game to an extremely talented and scrappy Piper squad. Instead of questioning Bethel's talent level or team play, maybe it's time to give Whitemore's newly improved Pipers some credit. Obviously it's still early, but so far in conference play, they have beaten a solid St. Olaf team and a Bethel team that nearly everyone on here was ready to put in the MIAC Hall of Fame. I didn't get to the defeat of the Olies but I was able to see the battle they put up against a clearly more talented and experienced Bethel team. The heart these guys played with in unlike any Hamline team I have seen in recent history. A name I haven't seen mentioned on here is Luke Johansen for the Pipes. He has stepped up in his new starting role and done a great job knocking down big shots down the stretch. Brandon Hayes and Adam Egan were giving Laugen fits at the point defensively the entire game. Obviously, the numbers that the Clute kid is putting up are unbelievable. This last game is the only time I have really gotten to see him play but will be a star in this conference for the next few years. He will have to learn to use him teammates more to his advantage, but what great scorer doesn't? Thrasher is looking more like a seasoned veteran every day. He does a lot of little things for the team, which allows some other guys to run wild and play. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year Nick "Hometown Kid" Carroll (nice tattoo:D) isn't up for 6th man of the year in the MIAC. He seems to be getting more comfortable every game i watch him play and he really did some great things in the Bethel game on both ends of the floor. I don't mean to rant but I think some credit needs to be given to a pleasingly surprising Hamline team. Another huge test tomorrow at UST who is playing better than anyone in the conference. If you don't have anything going on, I'd come check out these two young scrappers battle it out for the first place spot in the conference.

Holy cow I completely neglected to notice that Alex Healy STARTED. What is goin on over in Tommietown?

Tuma already gets the boot and only plays 9 minutes! VERY interesting. I think I remember someone saying this would have to happen in order for them to do well . Good for them and congrats to Joe Scott on the big opening night as a Tommie. I see they're going a little bit smaller with Shimek, McCoy and .Halvorsen all coming off the bench. Always nice to get that first one but let's see how they do against Wooster

Sorry about that PTP the operative missing word in that was "give".

suman, you may very well be right in your prognosis. As usual this conference is will be very tight in the 2-6 finishers and there is really no such thing as an upset (outside of Bethel). I was able to see the Johnnies against CSP and they looked stellar. Obviously, it's tough not to like 17-22 from the floor for Brink. Leiser didn't look great but that's all the more reason they could have beat a very explosive D2 team in CSP. I would hardly consider Schwartz a frosh. He looked like a season vet, keeping them in that game down the stretch with some clutch 3's. Like all premonitions sumander, only time will tell.

SMU @ Winona St. tomorrow...Upset time! 

I agree that it's a tough going for the Johnnies out of the gates but 0-4??? They will surely handle SMU with no problems. After that, they should beat Gustavus because I think Brink will outplay Whitwer and Carleton  because they don't have enough "D" to stop Leiser Schwartz and Brink.They will Bethel a run for their money down the stretch but either way the game goes, this is the conference championship preview.Someone's got to beat them Bethel. I find it nearly impossible to run the table in this conference. Maybe the Pipers will do it . The one set back for St. John's is they lack in size right now because the Fogt kid is hurt(anyone know for how long?)

I understand the skepticism regarding the Pipers based on their underacheiving teams in the years past. I was able to see them play in their first scrimmage against UW-Stout. This is BY FAR the best Hamline TEAM I have seen in recent history. They had lots of talent with Weiner, Derock, and Foster last year but the ladder two but the I in "teIam". Thrasher is a very good player(no surpise). The guys who really surprised me were Kujolic, Carroll, and most of all Hipp. Although Zev and Nick appeared to get lax at times, it is apparent these guys have a lot of talent to bring to the table. Zev got a couple steals for dunks that require D1 athleticism. Carroll made a couple passes that i don't think anyone in the gym saw but him. Carl Hipp (Fr., Totino Grace) absolutely dominated the big kid from Stout. He is raw right now a susceptible to foul trouble but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him on the All-Freshman squad at the end of the year. As far as Whitmore is concerned...Word on the street is he's drilling these guys into the ground and really challenging them as basketball players. I must say that I saw a couple of his guys play in high school and have never seen any of them play so hard. Fellas keep in mind this is my SLEEPER team, meaning if I had to pick a squad that is going to make some noise that not many people would expect, it would be them.

Pre Season Picks:
1.Bethel- Too many horses to deny at this point
2.St. Johns- Brink and Leiser along with a very strong freshman in Schwartz
3.Gustavus- Whitwer probable conference MVP along with Doble and Deslauriers
4.Carleton-Drake and Johnson plus strong Sophomores will allow them to contend
5.Hamline- New style of play, Thrasher Zev and transfer Carroll plus some youngsters, suspect to change but they're my sleeper
6/7.Mac-Not much growth outside Abe and Conboy/St. Thomas- Talent but no nucleus. who's going to score???
8.Augsburg- Cassens and Femi along with strong freshman, possibly move up is things evolve.
9/10.St. Olaf- lost 3 of their top five and don't have any firepower next in line/Concordia- Linz is tough but won't be able to carry the load.
11. St. Mary's- Nice freshman class but don't have much for upper classmen. Sweeney and Carr just won't cut it

Although I think they will be down this year due to a lack of experience, St. Thomas will be back at the top of the pack by next year. Fritz has a system that is extremely difficult to come in as a freshman and make an impact. This being said, I do think Tyler Nicolai will experience some success right from the get go. Tuma is not a true point guard, he just happens to be too small to run the two. In no time Fritz and Johnny Tauer will be forced to go with the frosh as I don't think the offense will flow well with Tuma at the 1. They boast an impressive freshman class with the likes of Anders Halvorson and Alex Healy(although I do think Healy is a bit slow). Also the transfer of Joe Scott will help ease the loss of a Brian Schnettler. They will struggle at the bigs. David Baker is not a 30+ minute guy and McCoy DEFINITELY isn't either. At the 4 spot they have Shimek who is strong but has minimal skills and Peltier who is a bit of a tweaner for them. I really think the 3 spot they received in the preseason poll is entirely based on coach Fritz's credentials and I don't expect to seem them in the playoffs. Last year was a bust down the stretch and I think this team has a very high learning curve to get anywhere near last year's squad.

Does anyone know anything about the newcomers from the La Crosse area?
Shmidtknecht at Gustavus, Holland at St. Mary's, and Fahey at St. Thomas? Heard that Holland is a stud and will start for St.Mary's (not a tough line-up to crack).

Who will be the powers and sleepers in the MIAC???

No doubt Bethel is stacked. With returning scorers such as Tim Madson and Mike Moberg and blue chipper Eric Hugoson, they are quite possibly at the top of the pack. Another tough squad is going to be St. Johns. Returning one of the top players in the conference in Brady Brink(why didn't he start for them last year?) and a solid scorer in Ryan Leiser. They also picked up a real steal in freshman Chris Swartz who is definitely a D2 talent.

Augsburg and Hamline are two very young teams that will potentially raise some eyebrows in the conference. Augsburg returns Jon Cassens who is a versatile scorer and will be joined by newcomers Aaron Van Der Stoep and Matt Quammen. They also return Femme Solaja, a beast on the interior. Hamline is another squad I think will do some damage. They lost scoring in Derock's transfer to Southwest Minnesota State and the graduation of Sam Weiner but made gains with an under the radar freshman class and a solid transfer in Nick Carroll. They also return Tony Thrasher who is a multi talented scoring threat and will need to be the focal point for this young squad.