Quote from: ADL70 on Yesterday at 06:04:11 PMFrom 2005-2011 Mt Union and Whitewater met one another in the Stagg Bowl. The power in the division shifted westward.

The power shifted to Mount.  Then it shifted to Mount and Whitewater.  More recently you can say it shifted westward to the middle part of the country, but initially it was 2 schools only.

Quote from: Patrick Coleman on August 23, 2026, 08:01:53 PMA number of FCS programs have been discontinued in that time as well. And I will say, even though the Patriot League teams didn't offer scholarships 25 years ago, they still pulled a number of scholarship-type athletes regardless. They didn't reach the I-AA title game without I-AA level talent.

Pat, Correct me if I am wrong but 6 NE D1-AA schools dropped.  They were all in the MAAC which was non-scholarship. CT- Fairfield; NY- Canisius, Iona, Siena, &St. John's; PA- La Salle.

Did I miss anyone? 

The overall point is there are more scholarships in the NE now compared to then.  It is up to the individual person to form their own opinion on how that affects D3 football.  I think it affects it a lot.

Quote from: ADL70 on August 22, 2026, 03:02:56 PM

Quote from: unionpalooza on August 21, 2026, 06:20:23 PM

Quote from: unionpalooza on August 21, 2026, 06:08:11 PMI've often wondered to what extent the proliferation of D1AA/FCS and D2 programs in the Northeast is part of the reason that NY/PA/NJ went from regularly producing D3 title contenders to producing almost none. Prior to 2000, a team from one of those states played in the Stagg Bowl 23 out of 28 years.  Some of that is explained by regional brackets, but certainly not all. A lot of the difference-maker kids who would have have been playing at Ithaca, Union, Rowan, W&J, etc. once upon a time are, these days, playing at UAlbany,Stony Brook, Wagner, Fordham, etc. (all former D3), Monmouth/Robert Morris type schools (new programs) or Lafayette/Lehigh-type schools (which used to be non-scholarship).  There was a little bit of this elsewhere - for example, the Pioneer League teams that moved up in the Midwest, but they're all non-scholarship.

As a data point, consider that three of the best QBs to play D3 in NY since 2000 - Jason Boltus, Joe Germinero, and Shane Sweeney - were all transfers from just one of those schools: UAlbany. (There's also Tyler Szalkowski, another UAlbany transfer currently tearing it up at Utica).

What proliferation of D1AA/FCS and D2? What programs have been added since 2000? The one-time d3 teams you mentioned left about three decades ago.

Mt Union started its championship run in 1993. They eliminated most teams from the East Region. UMHB started its playoff run in 2001. The WIAC moved from NAIA to NCAA and began winning championships in 1992. NWC (Linfield) moved to NCAA in 1996. The relevant proliferation of programs was in D3.

In 2000, Villanova stood as the only Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) program in Pennsylvania offering athletic scholarships. During the 1990s and 2000s, non-scholarship FCS teams in the Patriot League and Northeast Conference (NEC) regularly struggled against top Division II Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (PSAC) programs, which utilized athletic scholarships to build deeper, more athletic rosters. The competitive landscape shifted in the 2010s when the Patriot League introduced athletic scholarships and NEC schools expanded their funding, bringing parity to cross-divisional matchups. Today, fully funded FCS scholarship advantages have created a substantial talent gap over most PSAC programs, making modern FCS transitions—such as Mercyhurst's move to the NEC—appear premature based on historical competitiveness.
While Mount Union established a historically dominant dynasty, Eastern Division III programs were once central forces in the national championship picture. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, teams such as Ithaca, Rowan, Washington & Jefferson, Allegheny, and Lycoming were regular participants in the Stagg Bowl. Over the last two decades, however, the national power center shifted firmly toward the Midwest which did not have such growth of FCS or D2 scholarship opportunities. Outside of SUNY Cortland's national championship victory in 2023, Eastern programs reaching the Division III title game have become a rarity compared to their former prominence.

None of this takes into account the demographics of less college age kids in the East.

Quote from: ADL70 on August 20, 2026, 07:17:06 PMLooking at just the five seasons after Covid, does seem to support your case.

W&J was 38-7 and GCC 37-8. Westminster was 33-12 and CWRU 27-8

But for me what is significant is the futility of the rest of the conference.

The consistent underperformance of the lower-tier teams in this conference is notable. This league has historically been top-heavy, a trend evident since the 1990s when W&J dominated until GCC, led by RJ Bowers, emerged as a strong competitor. In the 2000s, W&J and Thomas More were the primary contenders. Currently, the PAC appears to be experiencing its most competitive period in recent memory.

Several factors contribute to this dynamic. The Western Pennsylvania region boasts a high concentration of football programs, including seven Division II institutions (excluding Mercyhurst, which is not positioned for FCS transition) and eight Division III teams. This does not account for the numerous FCS, Division II, and Division III programs in West Virginia, Northeastern Ohio, and Central Pennsylvania that draw from the same talent pool.

While the strength of the WIAC is frequently discussed, the strategic advantage they possess due to the presence of only one FBS institution and seventeen Division III institutions within the state is often overlooked. All state-affiliated institutions in Wisconsin are Division III. One can only speculate about the potential caliber of Pennsylvania's Division III programs if the state had a single FBS institution instead of three, no FCS institutions instead of eight, no Division II institutions instead of sixteen, and only seven Division III institutions instead of twenty-eight.

Another challenge facing the PAC is the questionable decision to integrate Hiram and St. Francis. Firstly, it is plausible that this decision significantly contributed to Carnegie Mellon University's departure. Secondly, both institutions are currently experiencing financial difficulties. While St. Francis was initially perceived to be disengaging from the complexities of Division I athletics, a review of their financial statements reveals substantial struggles. The addition of two financially distressed institutions, when three existing members were already in precarious financial positions, raises questions regarding strategic alignment.

I am not here to criticize the PAC commissioner or the presidents of member schools. I recognize the complexities of their roles, just as they would recognize the complexities of mine. While I do not possess all the relevant information, the data I do have indicates challenging times ahead for five of the seven lower-performing institutions in terms of operations, let alone football success. I doubt this is a mere coincidence. Again, while I lack complete information, the fact that John Carroll was seeking to leave the OAC at the same time the PAC accepted Hiram is difficult to reconcile.

Quote from: ADL70 on August 08, 2026, 08:57:43 PMPAC currently has a top tier of five and a big gap to sixth.   

PAC has a top tier of two: W&J and GCC.

Case and Westminster are a step down from those two, but they could easily work their way into that status.

Geneva is in their own category since they probably have the biggest and most loyal fan base. They made great strides last season, so we'll see where they go.

The rest of the schools need a lot of help to get better. Outside of Allegheny and SVC, the other four are fighting to just stay open, as Forbes says they're not in great financial shape.

Quote from: DagarmanSpartan on July 06, 2026, 10:11:01 AM

OK, does that look correct?

I like it.  I like the Bethany Bison the best, followed by W&J.  Not sure what is on the the Bearcats head.

Reading in the general board of a lot of conferences moving their broadcast to Flo and behind a paywall.  We are lucky enough to have the PAC Network and real lucky to get a professional broadcast 1 game a week on KDKA+ for free. 

Anyone know what the PAC's future intentions are?  Is there any potential they will move away from this current system that we all know and love?  The dollar amount to the schools being thrown around is $30k.  I know every dollar helps, but outside of a few schools in the PAC, would the majority need that money bad enough to risk alienating alums, students, and current parents along with any other fans?

Also UAA is contracted with Flo, what does Case do with their football broadcast?

Any news going on in the PAC?

Any recruits of interest?  Any coaching changes? 

I am excited to see what St. Francis looks like as a D3 school.  You would assume the first year or two, they are strong and are amongst the top 3/4 teams. The question is how do they look year 3 and beyond. 

When are they eligible for D3 playoffs? 

The PAC needs them to be a tough team competing for the conference title, this conference cannot take another bottom dweller.

Quote from: WashJeff68 on December 07, 2025, 07:52:38 AMW&J loses a lot from this year's team,  but they don't normally need to rebuild, just re load. We will see. Clearly QB and wide receivers are ones who will be missed.

I know one of the freshman QBs played at my old high school so I saw him a few times. Either he is W&Js starter and he is really good, or someone was good enough to beat him out.  Your QB situation should be fine as long as they stay healthy.

Who do we expect to be the teams in the PAC next year? 

GCC losing some high end talent do to graduation.   I can see them taking a step back.

I also see Westminster raising the bar.

2 games against the HCAC this week. 

What do we know about Hanover and Mount St Joseph?

W&J certainly has a tough one this week with Susquehanna.

2 teams are in the playoffs.  Hopefully they both can win a few games.

Good luck GCC and W&J

Quote from: ADL70 on August 28, 2025, 06:07:44 PMWhat are CWRU and Westminster doing that you like, Mikefln?

BTW there's only one "n" in Sewanee  and these are boards not boreds

Thanks four the garmaikal n speling irror chack! 

Quote from: ADL70 on August 25, 2025, 09:59:55 PM0-0 this week the d3 season starts Sept 4-6

Quote from: wally_wabash on August 26, 2025, 05:46:01 PMFalse starts are common at this time of the season! That'll get cleaned up. 

It happens. Just trying to get some conversations going here.  This board needs to liven up.  The season is around the corner and GCC is playing about as epic of an OCC as one can get. 

W&J will be pushing GCC hard for the top spot.  I like what Case and Westminster are doing and wouldn't be surprised if either ended up on top.   

I can't wait to see who from the others start to separate themselves from the rest to be a mid pack team. 

The PAC is looking strong this year, but the discussion on this bored is the pits.