Quote from: Machiavelli on November 21, 2024, 12:18:41 PMCome out to an RPI/Union game. Campuses are only 20-25 minutes apart. Attendance is usually 2500-5000. Come on out and tell me there isn't a home field advantage. Do it.

In the last 25 matchups:

RPI @ Home: 10-3
RPI @ Union: 4-8

Same time frame:

RPI Conference Championships: 9
Union Conference Championships: 5
RPI Playoff Appearances: 7
Union Playoff Appearances: 6
RPI Playoff Record: 7-7
Union Playoff Record: 4-6

It's somewhat amazing how teams this evenly matched can not have an exact .500 record Home and Away without a 'Home Field Advantage'. Make it make sense!?!? (You don't need a plane trip or a long ride or 50K fans for there to be a home field advantage. End of conversation.)

So, based on your post, the ONLY factor is deciding winner/loser to be considered is HOME FIELD? There's NOTHING else to consider in RPI's 14-11 mark over the last 25 meetings?  Seriously?

And "End of conversation."  How simply Machiavellian of you...

So, any league that plays a closed schedule can not be eligible for a Wild Card?  Seriously?

And I didn't ask for any PAC exception.  What would be reasonable would be an plank in the formula that deals with any such situation, PAC or otherwise.  I'm sorry. The thought that Cameron, or Thorn, or Gesling, or Burry, or DiSanto Fields play ANY meaningful role in the outcome of games among the top 4-5 teams in this league needs to be proven to me.  And until then, I'll maintain that 9-1 = 9-1 = 9-1.

You may not like my argument. You may think there are bigger issues to worry about. But to say a League that has 10-11 teams should not be eligible for Wild Card spots is just ridiculous.

Substitute Waynesburg for my Thiel statement. Home or away does improve the quality of the win because it doesn't improve the quality of the opponent.

Again, home & away is simply a rotation.  So W&J's win over Grove City is less valuable because the League schedule put it at Cameron instead of Thorn.  And Mellon's win over W&J is more valuable because the Tartans traveled 25 miles instead of the Presidents.

Sorry, in a closed league schedule, 9-1 / 9-1 / 9-1 is the same, EXCEPT in the eyes of the 'AA.

Pat, I understand WHERE the difference is.

In a sport where home & away rotates year to year, it makes no sense to include.  So what, W&J went to Thiel and won?  It was no more of a game because W&J traveled 90 minutes. But they get more credit for doing that, like it was more difficult?

Seriously, and perhaps specifically to the PAC situation and should others arise in the future:  If W&J/Grove City/CMU can beat each other by no more than a touchdown, and sweep the rest of the League while playing NO ONE ELSE, the NPI should be the same.

That's one man's opinion.

Quote from: ADL70 on November 17, 2024, 05:27:00 PMHere's something worth complaining about. John Carroll hosts but neither higher ranked W&J or GCC do.

John Carroll is hosting in the FIRST round, W&J/Grove City/CMU all have byes to second round.

But this failure of a ranking system set CMU up to host in that round while W&J & Grove both have to go on the road.

Their NPI numbers and rankings are NOT nearly identical. 1.05 difference between teams that played the exact same teams. And, when comparing the three tied teams in the PAC, OTHER schools results do not have to be considered. Those results have nothing to do with CMU/Grove/W&J NPI numbers. THAT'S my point. In my opinion, a formula that looks at those three tied teams' results and doesn't produce a statistical draw isn't accurate.

And, in this discussion, the d3football poll isn't worth anything.

ExTartan, I was, in no way, asking for the 'AA to consider the PAC's tie-breaker.  It's simply a joke that this formula could put 6 spots in a ranking between three teams that beat each other and won every game against the exact same 8 other teams.  My point was not sour grapes, merely pointing out that it's flawed to not see 9-1 records against the exact same opponents as identical, especially given that the three head-to-head match-ups were ALL within one score. Not sour grapes, but not accepting of a formula that so drastically views nearly identical results as not nearly identically.

Regarding the "vs. Westminster" point, I'll grant that the Presidents performed the worst in that match-up than the other two.  W&J came into that game immediately following the loss to Carnegie-Mellon. Your alma mater played St. Vincent following the loss to Grove City, St. Vincent who just relieved their head coach (and others) of their responsibilities. Grove City followed up its loss to W&J by playing Thiel and Waynesburg before facing real competition again.

In further consideration, I guess the Federal Government has concocted such ridiculousness in the past so I really gave the 'AA fools more credit for uniqueness than I should have.

If the PAC teams had played anybody outside the League, and these rankings came out, I get it. But these three teams should be in a coin flip type situation in any formula.

Only the 'AA could "craft' a formula to 'evaluate' three teams who beat each other in close games, beat eight other common opponents, and produce rankings from #17 (the team with the worst tie-breaker numbers in the three-way) to #23 (the team that won the tie-breaker in the league).  ONLY the NCAA.

W&J lost two touchdowns, fumbling the ball into the endzone.
Since losing to Grove City (and the shot at the PAC title), lack of crispness had been a struggle.
Too many Unsportsmanlike penalties (like yesterday, like CMU), too many dropped passes, too many missed tackles.

2022 W&J beat Hobart in a non-conference game. (after regular season)
2022 W&J beat John Carroll in a non-conference game.

2022 CMU beat Whitworth in a non-conference game.
2022 CMU beat RPI in a non-conference game.

2022 Grove City beat FDU-Florham in a non-conference game. (after regular season)

W&J, CWRU & CMU are all in same boat.  Need to win out, convincingly wouldn't hurt, hope for a little out-of-conference chaos, and force the committee to leave out a 9-1 team.

Quote from: E.115 on August 02, 2023, 04:03:21 PM

Btw are there any other PAC posters not from CWRU ??

Yes

ECAC website story repeatedly refers to WILLIAM & Jefferson....
You'd think the third-winningest team (771 wins) in NCAA Division III would not be misidentified...

https://ecacsports.com/news/2022/11/19/football-presidents-pick-up-bushnell-bowl-victory-over-statesmen.aspx

Utica had to be ahead of Hopkins when time came to choose the at-large teams.
Final regional rankings flipped or national committee flipped final regional rankings.
If I wanted to, I'd look at who is on what committee...

Unless Westminster knocks off Case-Western Reserve next weekend, the winner of the Nov. 12 Academic Bowl takes the PAC AQ.

IF the Titans win next week, the would clinch the PAC title for Carnegie-Mellon.

The PAC AQ is going to go to one of these five four three two (no big surprise):

CMU      6-0
CWRU   4-1 (loss to Grove)

Grove   4-2 (loss to CMU, West)
W&J      3-2 (loss to CWRU, CMU)
West      3-2 (loss to CMU, W&J)

Here are Big 5 head-to-head results so far:
Carnegie-Mellon 40, Grove City 33
Carnegie-Mellon 10, Westminster 0
Carnegie-Mellon 12, Wash-Jeff 7
Case-Western 14, Wash-Jeff 10
Wash-Jeff 17, Westminster 14
Grove City 14, Case-Western 13
Westminster 24, Grove City 17


Here's the remaining schedule of head-to-head matchups (other games involving Big 5):
Oct. 29 none (CMU vs. StVinc, W&J at Thiel, CWRU @ All, West @ Wayne)
Nov. 5 Grove at Wash-Jeff, CWRU at West
Nov. 12 CMU at CWRU (Grove vs. Thiel, W&J @ Way, West @ Gen)


IF CMU wins out, the AQ goes to the Tartans.
IF Case-Western wins out, the AQ goes to the Spartans.

Grove City, W&J and Westminster all need CMU to lose twice and CWRU to lose once.