I'll have to agree with you Bombers as far as that kid from Rochester who doesn't get two hoots about athletics BUT...

1) Any time athletics does well, it gives the school free and positive publicity
Example: What if a kid from Pittsburgh sees in the Post Gazette (Pittsburgh's paper) that Maravich has been successful at Ithaca and it might actually get some interest from that area. Obviously not to the extent of school like Gonzaga and Butler but it still will help.

2) As far as alums donating money to the based off of academics, I think it differs from school to school. At certain schools athletic alums are the ones that still feel the most connections thru teammates, coaches, and players. Take Homecoming weekend for example, who do you see on campus the most, my best guess would be former athletes.

3) At a school like Ithaca, it looks like (doing minor research and estimating things) there are about 6,000 undergrads at the school and roughly 1,000 student athletes (might be a little high). That's 1/6th of the student body. That's a pretty high percentage if you ask me. I would imagine numbers are somewhat similar and maybe higher at other Empire 8 schools. Athletics play a very important role in kids' decisions and retention (huge in this economy) at the school. On top of that, new fitness facilities are always helpful because believe it or not, that's important for prospective students.

As much as the people in academia want to say kids come to the school because of academics, if it wasn't for these coaches in the Empire 8 (and most conferences for that matter) these kids wouldn't be at their respective schools.
   

Been following Nelly's crew from afar this year. Just want to throw another interesting article that was brought to my attention about the aforementioned "Downtown" Ray Brown from Hamline's school newspaper.

http://media.www.hamlineoracle.com/media/storage/paper1367/news/2010/02/09/Sports/Mens-Baskeball.Downtown.Ray.Brown.Presses.On-3867179.shtml

I heard RIT was the first to try and make a move but the LL wanted Ithaca because they fit "their criteria" better.

Next question is, if this all happens what happens to the Empire 8? Then, who will replace these schools? Will they raid the Skyline and give Stevens a travel partner?

Really too bad about the Chase. Rumors are swirling about who will join the Liberty League. I've heard 3 prominent schools are the Empire 8 are heading that way. Should be interesting to see how this all figures itself out.

Well I was proven wrong, which is fine. I was going with the schools that I know from some of the national rankings that have included Minnetonka and Hopkins (must be loaded this year). I might be able to catch them this year at the Garden. Can they compete with the best of NYC?

PI, completely understand your thinking but at the same time, Whitmore has one class of his own recruits on campus right now. None of the veterans have ever won at Hamline and from the looks at other MIAC rosters, they never won in HS either. It will probably take some time, things are just going to turn around especially when you look at the MIAC website and see that St. Thomas, St. John's, and Gustavus have won a majority of the conference titles over the last couple of decades.

Quote from: bearnation on January 21, 2009, 05:48:16 AM
Zola I agree We need a change to truely get the Potsdam Basketball program back to the glory days.  Its a joke to read that Potsdam Basketball is considered a basketball power.  We have only really has one great year since Jerry Welsh departed.  Was 04-05 a fluke?

Didn't the Bears have a couple of decent years since the Jerry Welsh days. Mitchell had them win the regular season a while back and Dobbs took them to the NCAAs twice. I would say that going to the NCAA would be considered a great year. If I recall correctly, Potsdam isn't exactly a hotspot destination for tourism in the winter. It's tough bearing (no pun intended) the cold up there.

Watching from afar again this year. The HoopsPhd post was very well written and certainly made some points. Not sure how long it took to come up with those thoughts but it seems like they've been on the way for a while now. By the way, it's not Witmore, it's Whitmore.

That post came on the heels of the Augsburg loss, which is when all these people come out of nowhere to rip the Pipers and Coach Whitmore. Yet, when they gave St. Thomas the closest game of anyone in the MIAC, there was not a single post about the matchup. Last time I checked these "so called supporters" do nothing but complain when they lose but won't give any support when they win.

It's no wonder Hamline hasn't won in a long time, they have no real support from fans and alums. Hopefully, posts like The Hoops Doc will give Whitmore and his players some extra motivation as the season progresses and into the offseason.

Nation, I totally agree with you about having talent and having chemistry to win games. Obviously everyone has to buy in to what the coach wants and basically all the players that I named were able to conform to the team concept.

If you have that All-American type player that completely buys in to what the coach wants then it is easier to get everyone else on the same page. As far as the bench goes, you need to have a good bench to win on a consistent basis with the exception of those Princeton days when Carill was teaching the backdoor like it was their job, those guys consistently played 38-40 minutes almost every game.

Well if everyone looks at the league, it will go in cycles. There will always be times that teams are slightly down because of admission increases, injuries, etc. Over the past 25 years, there have been stretches of great teams (winning conference tourney, just looking at record books not regular season records) at certain schools. Buff St started it with Bihr in 83-84 (2 years), Potsdam for two years in 85-86, back to the Bengals for 5 years, mix in Fredonia and Bport the next two, back to the Bihr boys for 3, Steve Holmes led Geneseo squad for two years, Spanny at Cortland, Whitmore at Bport for two, back to Bihr's last run, Dobbs at Potsdam for two years, and finally Curle's last three squads.

And if you look at those teams, Buff St had Gettys, Groovers, and Sheppard, Potsdam was Mitchell and Bullock, Buff St was Wolters, Gainey, the famous E-lon-E McCracken, Geneseo was led by Fitch, Cortland was Williams, Bport was Medbury/Hollis/supporting casts, Buff St had a wide range of players that peaked at the right time, Potsdam had Connolly, Harris, Clayton, and finally Platty had Williams/Gorham. All these teams were led by guys that could have/or did play at a higher level. Great players will get you wins. Being a great coach is one thing but if you can't recruit the best players then chances are you won't win (obviously, there are exceptions).

So yes, it is disappointing to see Platty and Bport where they are at but Bport just beat the 25th ranked team on the road without Cantrell Parrish. Watch out for the them come tourney time, they are battle tested as usual. First it was Whitmore and now Dunne with probably some of the toughest scheduling in the SUNYAC.

1) How about the floater Mark Perry made against Hobart to send the Golden Eagles to the Sweet 16. Game winner by a senior in his possible last game on the road. Huge moment for the Brockport program.
2) Anthony Williams' half court heave against Rochester in the NCAA tournament. Another huge win for the SUNYAC.

Those two shots are probably the best two shots I've seen to win games. Anybody else remember them.

It's all about packaging kids. If you have a high endowment then you can package kids better. I had a HS teammate that played football at UofR and his parents made more than enough money yet he got at least half off tuition. That's tough to turn down. To have a degree from that caliber of a school and pay a state school type tuition then it's a no brainer. That's basically what all the better private schools in the country do on a year to year basis. The problem usually is when the school decides that athletes don't get the great packages, then the sports suffer. I think Fisher is dealing with that right now a little.

By the way, the former UofR player that turned down a scholarship for football from Boston College was Seth Hauben. I didn't think that was much of a secret. I'm sure he got a pretty good "package" to play for the Yellow Jackets.

I'll try and give a run down of the coaches in the SUNYAC considering there hasn't been much turnover in recent years.

Greg Dunne - Was extremely successful player (Naz) and assistant at Brockport. Had a solid year last season with high expectations for a first year coach. Should be interesting this season without the horses from the last couple of years (Sherod Harris and Brandon Williams in particular). Mychal Wilkes and Cantrell Parrish will lead the Golden Eagles this season.

Kevin Broderick - Always seems to get a couple of kids people don't know about that turn out to be pretty good. Will be interesting to see how he does without Perioli (sp?). Has been to the 'ship on a couple of times but his teams never seem to rise to the occasion. Tom Downing and shoot it from everyone Kyle Rueter should be the leaders.

Tom Curle - Bounced around before finding a home at his alma mater. Has been extremely successful up in the North Country with an influx of transfers from JCs and higher levels. Loses a lot of talent from last years' squad. Life without Anthony Williams is going to difficult. Not expecting them to drop from the upper tier of the conference.

Kevin Moore - Has had a tough time getting players and getting wins. Was an excellent coach before Elmira College went to the basement of the Empire 8. Should continue to get better this year with his star Brad Cooper.

Tom Spanbauer - Had a ton of success with the help of Tom Williams and Company at the beginning of the millennium. Should be a national power with the majors, location, and "special talent" for their athletes.  He will have to find ways to get Mike Lewis the ball, he could be one of the best players in the SUNYAC.

Vince Medici - Had a successful career at HVCC before moving over the SUNYAC. Has done a great job of developing a pipeline to Albany and NYC. Plays in one of the best D3 facilities I have seen. They are still developing and will continue to get better.

Farji Ansari - Disappointing might be the right word for the lack of success Farji has had at Buff State. He can get just about anyone that can breathe into school and can't seem to make his teams mesh. Maybe his boys from Turner-Carroll could help him out. Buff State should be a powerhouse just like they were in the 90's with Dick Bihr at the helm.

Sherry Dobbs - Two NCAA appearances in his first two years was quite a start. Hasn't been much since. Has a talented yet underachieving group of seniors this season, should be a solid season for the Bears or it will be another cold winter in the North Country.

Steve Minton - Has done a fantastic job of bringing a "Princeton" style offense to the SUNYAC. Has considerable talent returning with Howe and Morton. They could make a run at the title this year.

Dagan Nelson - The coach that I have the least about of knowledge about. I've heard he has been working the recruiting trails hard. Hopefully for him, his recruiting will lead to more wins than Dougy P. had.

Brian Murphy - Haven't seen his teams play since Morrisville made the move to full fledged D3 member. His JC teams always had a bunch of talent. Has a great coaching pedigree with his father being the aforementioned Tom Murphy.

I believe that's it. Had Grimmer from SUNYIT in there but forgot they moved over to the NEAC. With practice starting, any reports from any of the campuses. Good luck this season.

As far as coaches go there are a lot of different variables that go into it. Are you looking at recruiting, X's and O's, keeping a team together, or a combination of all of them? These are basically from things I know, I could be way off base. But in the famous words of Charles Barkley, "I may be wrong, but I doubt it."

Bob McVean - Highly respected throughout the state as far as other coaches go. Usually has talent, the teams underachieve. Haven't seem a really well put together team since the likes of Craig Jones was there.

Rob Kornacker - Fisher is usually one of the most hated schools by other coaches throughout New York because it seems Fisher always brings in a boatload of recruits. He is a great recruiter and has had a lot of success. Should be interesting to see how the team does since enrollment is up and he doesn't get "help" from the financial aid office.

Jim Mullins - A great school with great academics. The school sells itself. Usually has the horses, things never seem to turn out the way he wants. Should be interesting this year with all the studs back with Burton, Bostic, Leahy, and everyone else.

Mike Daley - Had a lot of success during the Greg Dunne years. Has struggled recently with a enormous amount of talent. Corey McAdam does not belong at this level, he might carry the team on his back this year. I believe chemistry within the team has caused a lot of problems.

Paul Culpo - Got lucky with one recruit, Coco, and hasn't done much to surround him with better players. Winning percentage can't be good (I'm not looking it up). Great guy though.

Chris Connelly - Was a great fit at Elmira, just couldn't keep guys there or win just like any other coaches since the Kevin Moore era. Really good guy, who works at it. Will be recruiting a totally different type of player at Utica, should be interesting to see how he will do.

Dale Wellman - Another guy with a great resume. Learned a lot under the tutelage of Bob Montana and Dave Paulsen. Should be a good fit at Alfred. Will have to be creative in recruiting because Alfred is in the middle of nowhere. He seemed to be a finalist for every job available in the Northeast and East region.

Randy Torgalski - Another resume guy while working under Tom Murphy and Joe Nesci. Could potentially be a great fit at Elmira. Not as familiar with him as I am the others.

Bill Hurley - Very familiar with the program and the players. Had great success under Loeffler, should be interesting to see how he puts his stamp on the program.

ne-ball, totally understand what you are saying but at the same time, coaches at places like Amherst, Williams, Wash U, and others get hundreds of tapes and letters from high school players. it's difficult to keep up with all of them. Those kids want a degree from that particular school and also want to play basketball.

I can see a coach saying, "you have the potential or opportunity to get minutes right away."  Some kids adjust quicker then others thus forcing some guys to the bench, same thing happens at all levels. Most of the time, at the D3 level it's a numbers game, the deeper you are, the better you are.

I wouldn't exactly say that Paulsen's recruiting tactics were like D1 schools. D1 schools dangle that scholarship and if it's not taken then they move onto the next kid. D1 schools' lists are much smaller and are choosing from a much smaller base. At the D3 level and you have a chance at several impact players at the same position then you should take both because you don't want your competition to get them. Kids don't want to leave because 1) they like the school, 2) don't want to leave that degree.

Here is some food for thought, I've heard that many of the upper echelon of D3s are packaging their kids so well that they are paying much or anything at all. These schools, some NESCACs included, are basically giving away scholarships at the D3 level against schools that give away nothing but need based financial aid. Not all schools are created equal.