Future of Division III

[jknezek]

Gee.  CWRU medical school practically LIVES on NIH grants.  So far, it hasn't affected CWRU that much.

That said, not to veer too far off topic, but what issues would Chicago specifically have in that regard?

Actually, according to the Blue Ridge Institute for Medical Research, BRIMR.org, Case was the 26th ranked medical school in 2024 for receiving NIH funding. Wash U is 2nd. I will say, Chicago is 29th. So that's not solely the issue. On the other hand, Chicago carries $6B in total debt as a university, Case only carries between 1 and 1.2. Wash U is around 4.5B.

There are so many factors, I doubt pointing at any one is the answer for any single year. But the federal government funding cuts hit all research universities to various degrees and I have no doubt that is a significant factor. The huge deficits at Wash U are out of the norm. Chicago, on the other hand, has run 9 figure deficits more than just related to the federal funding cuts.

Pointing to funding cuts being a significant issue in the most recent filings, Wash U did not run deficits in 2022 or 2023, ran the big one mentioned above in 2024, ran basically flat in 2025, and is projected for a $7M deficit in 2026. Chicago ran significant deficits in 23, 24, and 25, broken even in 2022, and expects another 9 figure deficit in 2026.

Arguable Johns Hopkins is one of the top, if not the top, recipient of Federal funds, and they reported an expected drop of 1.3B in Federal funding. So I was surprised they weren't on the list. After checking though, they didn't report a consolidated University financial report for '24 or 25, so it appears they simply aren't providing the number the article is quoting.

[DagarmanSpartan]

I don't attend finance meetings there, but one doesn't have to do know just how dependent CWRU School of Medicine is on them.

Consider this.

https://case.edu/medicine/about/school-medicine-continues-rank-top-25-institution-nih-funding

Quote: The School of Medicine received $294.7 million from the NIH and ranked 22nd nationally, up one position compared to 2021.

And that was as of 2023.

And while that number has varied from year to year, it is typically the largest in NE Ohio.

So yeah, those numbers definitely drive the train there.

But as I said, I haven't seen a super-massive drop off in that, even in recent years.  Seems pretty steady, fortunately.

I'd be surprised to hear that something like that is affecting WashU or Chicago, given that both of those schools generally have research budgets that are significantly higher overall than CWRU's but if it is, I'm willing to listen to anyone who has the info in that regard.

[Gregory Sager]

To me, it's simply proof of what I have always maintained, which is that the incredible diversity of D3 in terms of the size, governance, mission, financial resources, location, academic emphases, etc., of its constituent members is not simply a truism of the division writ whole. The leagues that make up D3 reflect that kind of diversity as well, although to a lesser degree because, wherever possible, leagues have typically coalesced around schools that roughly consider each other to be peers.

It's the principle of consanguinity, except as personified by institutions of higher learning rather than by human clanship. The odds are greater that you'll bear a family resemblance to your first cousin than that you'll look like your fourth cousin (and also that you may be more susceptible to the same sorts of genetic conditions and diseases that can affect your first cousin, as opposed to your fourth cousin). That's because you share half of your DNA sources with your first cousin but only 6.25% of your DNA sources with your fourth cousin.

But, having said that, given the typical level of exogamy in the U.S., it would not be out of the ordinary for you to be a 6'3" brunette with dark eyes and curly hair, while your first cousin is 5'8", blonde, and has blue eyes and straight hair.

The UAA is no more of a cookie-cutter collection of schools than is the MIAA, or the ODAC, or the NEWMAC. Yes, there's a recognizable institutional niche there: Small-to-medium-sized (NYU aside) private research universities with very large endowments and sterling AAU academic credentials. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a vast array of differences between, say, Chicago and CWRU, or Carnegie Mellon and Brandeis, or NYU and Rochester. You just can't assume that things like NIH funding are identical across the board among UAA schools.

[DagarmanSpartan]

jknezek,

I didn't see your post prior to making my last post.

But that's a little shocking.  Why is the debt so much higher at those schools?  What is the source of the debt?

[WUPHF]

That said, not to veer too far off topic, but what issues would Chicago specifically have in that regard?

If you Google UChicago, funding, financial crisis and such or go looking at www.chicagomaroon.com, it is a complex and fascinating story for people who find this thread as interesting as an anything else on the boards.

[DagarmanSpartan]

OK, so I just Googled it and found this.

https://www.hpherald.com/evening_digest/university-of-chicago-eyes-further-deficit-cuts-staff-raises/article_0d5db265-b2dd-43b0-800e-612287bb9a53.html

Yeah, it looks like the deficit is coming down, but its causes appear to be multi-faceted.  Had no idea that John Rockefeller's pet university would ever get so deeply in arears.

Never imagined it.  Hopefully, they'll get rid of their deficit completely over time.

[Patrick Coleman]

But as I said, I haven't seen a super-massive drop off in that, even in recent years.  Seems pretty steady, fortunately.

What access would you have to see these numbers? Just because you don't see them, like you don't see the enrollment cliff, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[jknezek]

jknezek,

I didn't see your post prior to making my last post.

But that's a little shocking.  Why is the debt so much higher at those schools?  What is the source of the debt?

I don't think Wash U's is all that high. Chicago... well, you googled the issues.

Wash U... has an endowment of 13-14B. They can carry 1B in debt. It's not proportionally different than the 200-300M that Case carries in debt versus an endowment of 2.5B. While endowment isn't the best way of determining, I'd prefer total assets, I'm not sure university asset values are always real useful. They assume someone would buy the assets to run a school but, as we've seen time and again, that simply doesn't happen all the time. Witness Birmingham-Southern's transition to a Coast Guard facility, or other closed schools being sold off for the land, not the plant, to build anything from condos to retirement communities.

Basically though, Wash U and Case have the same ratio of debt to endowment. Chicago has a significantly poorer ratio for a variety of reasons, but I suspect the physical assets of the school in Chicago are worth more as repurposable land than Cleveland or St. Louis. I could be wrong, I'm not an urban real estate expert.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I mean, if somebody wanted to buy the campus of the University of Chicago, it'd probably make a great location for a football stadium complex...

[blue_jays]

OK, so I just Googled it and found this.

https://www.hpherald.com/evening_digest/university-of-chicago-eyes-further-deficit-cuts-staff-raises/article_0d5db265-b2dd-43b0-800e-612287bb9a53.html

Yeah, it looks like the deficit is coming down, but its causes appear to be multi-faceted.  Had no idea that John Rockefeller's pet university would ever get so deeply in arears.

Never imagined it.  Hopefully, they'll get rid of their deficit completely over time.

As someone who worked at UChicago for more than a decade, there's a whole lot of spending going on. They upped their student enrollment, and had to build new dorms and buildings to house them. Whenever viable land in Hyde Park became available, they were snapping it up quick. They've had 3 hiring freezes in the last 14 years. I remember in 2013/2014 when they announced a $4.5 billion capital campaign and a hiring freeze in the same email (they had already raised $2 billion in the quiet phase).

There are a lot of factors when it comes to the high debt, but overexpansion is high on the list. They have multiple international campuses in Europe and Asia. Every time big gifts are made, it's some billionaire like Pritzker who wants to start a new major and build a new building. That money is earmarked just for those projects, and the operating budget just continues to swell. After all, the most expensive line item is personnel. Big time faculty get treated like royalty. The regular old staff members always got the short end of the stick. "Who needs a raise when you have the prestige of saying you work here?"

Frankly, you'd be very surprised at how low UChicago coaches are paid considering the expensive urban environment. Plenty of hiring candidates pull out of consideration from that factor (or don't apply to begin with).

One area that I think/hope they've remedied is athletic fundraising. Multiple times during my time there, a successful athletic alum wanted to make a big gift just to athletics, and they were told that they couldn't do it unless they gave an equally sized gift to the university in general. Needless to say, those alums were none too pleased about that ask, and that faucet would dry up quick.

All that being said, I did enjoy my time working there and I still hold UChicago in high esteem. Every institution has their quirks, but it's an amazing school for a reason.

[DagarmanSpartan]

But as I said, I haven't seen a super-massive drop off in that, even in recent years.  Seems pretty steady, fortunately.

What access would you have to see these numbers? Just because you don't see them, like you don't see the enrollment cliff, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Referring to CWRU, I've seen the enrollment numbers (which are not the same as NIH money), and they definitely have NOT decreased.  No need for any special access.  That's all available publicly on open sources.

See here.

https://case.edu/ir/cwru-facts/student-facts

https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/trends/case-western-reserve-university/student-population/

You'll find 10+ years worth of enrollment data there.  Nationally, there may be an enrollment cliff of some kind, and there may be schools affected by it.

CWRU isn't one of them.  Undergrad enrollment increased every year from 2016-2024, and was nearly identical from 2024 to 2025.  Overall enrollment has remained 12,000-ish for several straight years now.

But that's a separate issue from NIH funding.  As for that, CWRU's has stayed in the Top 25 to 30 pretty consistently for several straight years.  Again, no need for any special access.  That's all PUBLIC data, easily available online.

https://www.payette.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/strategic-space-planning-for-biomedical-research-1.pdf

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2024/03/28/ohio-nih-research-economic-impact.html

You don't have to work for the school, or be in any meetings to simply work the button on the old "Google" website, and get the answers to these questions.

Regarding overall research funding at CWRU, not just NIH, it grew from $467 million in FY 22 to $643 million in FY 24.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/education/ccl-case-aau-rankings-20260312/

Again, lots of open source reporting on that.

No need to have any "insider" data.  Not sure why you would think that is some sort of necessity.

[ADL70]

Well, I'm glad CWRU, my main D3 alma mater, wasn't on any of the big loss lists.

OTOH........I don't like seeing Yeshiva, my other D3 alma mater, on one of the deficit lists.

Here's the thing I don't understand though.  D3 sports at CWRU were definitely not well attended back in my time, and I don't see many indications that much has changed in that regard over the last three decades.

Given that, I truly have a hard time wondering how it is that athletics there don't run a bigger operating deficit.  Surely they aren't bringing in major revenues.

It's not like I-FBS P4 where your media rights deal alone might be worth $40-$90 million annually per school, not even counting ticket revenues, merchandising, and donations from wealthy alumni boosters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the data anthletic budgets, but the university as awhole.

[Ron Boerger]

jknezek,

I didn't see your post prior to making my last post.

But that's a little shocking.  Why is the debt so much higher at those schools?  What is the source of the debt?

I don't think Wash U's is all that high. Chicago... well, you googled the issues.

Wash U... has an endowment of 13-14B. They can carry 1B in debt. It's not proportionally different than the 200-300M that Case carries in debt versus an endowment of 2.5B. While endowment isn't the best way of determining, I'd prefer total assets, I'm not sure university asset values are always real useful. They assume someone would buy the assets to run a school but, as we've seen time and again, that simply doesn't happen all the time. Witness Birmingham-Southern's transition to a Coast Guard facility, or other closed schools being sold off for the land, not the plant, to build anything from condos to retirement communities.

Basically though, Wash U and Case have the same ratio of debt to endowment. Chicago has a significantly poorer ratio for a variety of reasons, but I suspect the physical assets of the school in Chicago are worth more as repurposable land than Cleveland or St. Louis. I could be wrong, I'm not an urban real estate expert.

The devil is in the details as you are well aware.

If the total assets are primarily or even significantly liquid (investments, cash/savings, etc.) then great.
If they are illiquid (e.g. mostly plant, property, and the like) then not great.  You raise a decent point about location, location, location, but the small schools that are struggling by and large aren't in areas where there's a huge demand for land (hello B-SC!).  And even if they are, they can't make use of those assets to pay the bills unless they sell and lease back, which is a short-term fix at best. 

Plenty of schools are selling assets, but few have a plan to address where the money comes after the assets they can afford to let go are gone.

[Ron Boerger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the data anthletic budgets, but the university as awhole.

There are two metrics and that is causing confusion.  The first three address overall budgets; only the fourth addresses what percentage of overall spending is for athletics.  The "losses", "deficit" and "combined total losses" are for the schools as a whole.

[DagarmanSpartan]

Well, I'm glad CWRU, my main D3 alma mater, wasn't on any of the big loss lists.

OTOH........I don't like seeing Yeshiva, my other D3 alma mater, on one of the deficit lists.

Here's the thing I don't understand though.  D3 sports at CWRU were definitely not well attended back in my time, and I don't see many indications that much has changed in that regard over the last three decades.

Given that, I truly have a hard time wondering how it is that athletics there don't run a bigger operating deficit.  Surely they aren't bringing in major revenues.

It's not like I-FBS P4 where your media rights deal alone might be worth $40-$90 million annually per school, not even counting ticket revenues, merchandising, and donations from wealthy alumni boosters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the data anthletic budgets, but the university as awhole.

It is, and someone corrected me on that.

That was a Segway into the rest of the conversation on debt.