FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[DIIIinVA]

GS, I'm curious about the institutional dislike of Wheaton by NP folks.  How is it different - other than being closer geographically - from the dislike or resentment of Wheaton by many other schools with similar missions? 

Faculty poaching?  Theological differences?  Perceived Wheaton arrogance?  Single-denomination affiliation vs. broadly evangelical affiliation?  Dislike born from institutional similarity - or dissimilarity?  Is it of such a sensitive nature that you can't spell it out beyond "it's an institutional thing"?  Maybe I'm denser than average.  Maybe if I knew more about North Park as an institution and how it differs from Wheaton the answer would be obvious. But I can't figure out what you're saying the source of this longstanding, non-athletically related animosity is.  I'm not trying to argue - just curious.  When you find out someone doesn't like you, you at least want to know why.

[Gregory Sager]

Augustana has some very good recruits coming in including All-State Quarterback Matt Rossi from Palatine High School, Running back Mike Gyetvay from Fremd High School, and 2 time MO all-state WR Sammy Santana from the St. Louis area

Thanks Mike!!  Don't toot your own horn too much!!   

It might be his dad (I hope), who is also named Mike.

If I had a nickel for every 18-year-old kid who has tried (and failed at) that anonymous self-promotion stunt in one of the d3sports.com rooms, I'd have enough money to treat Mugsy to an Italian beef at Charcoal Delights when he visits Holmgren Field on October 3.

[Gregory Sager]

GS, I'm curious about the institutional dislike of Wheaton by NP folks.  How is it different - other than being closer geographically - from the dislike or resentment of Wheaton by many other schools with similar missions? 

Faculty poaching?  Theological differences?  Perceived Wheaton arrogance?  Single-denomination affiliation vs. broadly evangelical affiliation?  Dislike born from institutional similarity - or dissimilarity?  Is it of such a sensitive nature that you can't spell it out beyond "it's an institutional thing"?  Maybe I'm denser than average.  Maybe if I knew more about North Park as an institution and how it differs from Wheaton the answer would be obvious. But I can't figure out what you're saying the source of this longstanding, non-athletically related animosity is.  I'm not trying to argue - just curious.  When you find out someone doesn't like you, you at least want to know why.

It's not a secret, and I'm happy to spell it out for you in the interest of open dialogue and enlightenment. In so doing I run the risk of boring those of us who aren't affiliated with NPU or Wheaton, of course, but when have I ever let the risk of boring people stop me from posting something?

Several of your guesses come close to zeroing in on the answer. The single-denomination evangelical school vs. non-affiliated evangelical school issue does enter into it, because there's a proprietary sense among Covenanters regarding Covie kids and the denominational school. While nobody really thinks that NPU owns the rights to Covie kids, there's still a (not entirely rational) feeling that the Covenant's teenagers (and their parents) should be supporting the school rather than a rival. That doesn't distinguish NPU from some of the other denominationally-affiliated Christian schools that you mentioned (e.g., Calvin, Messiah, both Bethels), but since the Covenant is a small denomination the feeling is more acute. Mugsy's probably encountered some variation of this sentiment in those discussions at Glen Ellyn Covenant to which he's alluded. Still, this isn't the biggest issue behind NPU's anti-Wheaton sentiment.

The "perceived Wheaton arrogance" thing sometimes rears its head as well, which is probably an outgrowth of Wheaton's visibility as the mainstream media's default "get me an interview with an evangelical for this piece" focus upon Wheaton as the archetypical Christian college. But Parkers are reasonable enough (usually ) to realize that Wheaton College doesn't cultivate that; the mainstream media cultivates that. After all, the downside to it is that Wheaton gets ridiculed by the pundits and stereotyped by the public more than does a comparatively anonymous evangelical school such as North Park. And not even the most rabid anti-Wheaton person at NPU would argue that Wheaties foster this arrogance, since (to our consternation) most of you are just too darn nice for us to successfully accuse you of being full of yourselves.

The "theological differences" and "institutional dissimilarity" answers are the closest to hitting the nail on the head. I spoke before of some of the animus borne by Parkers coming from a sense of misunderstanding Wheaton, and this is where that enters into it. There is a widespread suspicion among NPU students and alumni that Wheaton is a fundamentalist school, and that Wheaton is filled with fundamentalists, and while the Covenant has had its share of fundies over the years the denomination itself (and most of its membership) has managed to define itself as broadly evangelical and committed to doctrinal freedom (within biblical bounds, of course) while resisting fundamentalist dogma. Naturally, any Parker with even a scintilla of awareness of what Wheaton is really like (and what truly fundamentalist schools such as Bob Jones and Liberty are really like) doesn't hold that opinion of Wheaton, but, nevertheless, enough do think it for it to be a source of misunderstanding. Like a lot of misunderstandings, it emanates from ignorance of the institution in question.

Some of that perception of Wheaton arises from the fact that Wheaton students have to sign a pledge regarding their social behavior (or, as it is now ironically termed, a "covenant"), whereas the form of in loco parentis practiced by North Park has never involved signing anything. One merely was presented with the rules (which were less stringent than Wheaton's, although Wheaton's recent concession to allow dancing has brought the two schools more in line, social-behavior-wise), and either abided by them or was disciplined for breaking them. But the fact that Wheaton required a signed pledge/covenant of its students (and faculty, too, for that matter) implied the sort of social control and directed behavior usually associated with fundamentalism, which is why so many Parkers over the years have thought of Wheaton and Wheaties as fundie. Remember my mention of that April Fool's issue of the NPC newspaper back in '71? That's a not-so-gentle allusion to said enforced social behavior, which in the fevered imagination of college students often ends up being equated with fascism.

(Ironically, the one area in which Wheaton College might be accused of having fundamentalist overtones -- the school's requirement that faculty members adhere to a premillennialist position in terms of eschatological belief -- is something of which very few Parkers are even aware.)

Nowadays, though, I'd say that by far the biggest source of division -- and by far the biggest source of Parker animosity towards Wheaton -- has to do with institutional dissimilarities. North Park has always differed from Wheaton in that they sit on the opposite sides of the fence in terms of Christian-school enrollment philosophies: North Park is open, and Wheaton is closed. That is to say, NPU does not require its students to make a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, while Wheaton does. North Park is an avowedly evangelical school whose requirements and mission in and out of the classroom are explicitly Christian, and its professors are required to be professing Christians, but it does not require its students to be born-again Christians. Wheaton, on the other hand, does.

Neither enrollment philosophy is better than the other, and there are plenty of examples of both schools within the wider Christian-school rubric. But Wheaton's closed philosophy, coupled with its location in a distant upper-middle-class suburb and its overwhelmingly white, suburban, upper-middle-class student body and orientation, conveys the impression among Parkers that Wheaton is an ivory-tower sanctuary filled with sheltered Christian kids who have no exposure whatsoever to the real world and who are never seriously led to question their faith, or even desire to have their faith challenged.

At NPU, by contrast, the real world is right outside the front door of the dorm (the school is located in a safe neighborhood, but it's an unmistakeably urban environment filled with people of all colors speaking strange languages) and even inside the dorm itself (the kid in the next dorm room over might be a Buddhist from Korea, or a nominal Catholic, or a religiously-indifferent mainline Protestant, etc.). The experiences of the real world in all its nitty-grittiness challenge and refine faith and raise hard questions (or so goes the NPU mantra), even as the school itself tries to shape and nurture by asking those questions within a Christian context. Social-outreach involvement (tutoring inner-city kids, Meals On Wheels, soup-kitchen and homeless shelter work, Habitat For Humanity, ESL tutoring, etc.) is pushed very hard at North Park, and traditionally a very high percentage of resident students are involved in these sorts of urban ministries. At NPU the emphasis is placed upon the thesis in the epistle of James that faith which does not bear fruit in good works is not really faith at all.

Unfortunately, this plays right into the hands of that traditional stereotype of Wheaton and its students. I'm afraid that Parkers sometimes are the ones guilty of arrogance, not Wheaties, because Parkers feel that they are the ones living out Christ's precepts to minister to the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, etc., and that they are the ones who truly have a genuine faith that has been tested by engaging the real world -- the world doesn't get any more "real" than a block of apartment buildings in Albany Park or Uptown -- and its inhabitants. Wheaties, they feel, hold the world at bay by excluding non-Christians from their campus and by residing in a starchy, white-bread Leave It To Beaver suburb.

As I said, there's some truth here mixed in with a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings on the part of my fellow Parkers. My hopes in posting this agonizingly long essay are that: a) some of my fellow Parkers might realize that they don't necessarily have the straight 411 on Wheaton; and b) some of the Wheaton folks who really don't know any thing about, or understand, NPU will grasp a little more of where we're coming from.

[Mugsy]

Augustana has some very good recruits coming in including All-State Quarterback Matt Rossi from Palatine High School, Running back Mike Gyetvay from Fremd High School, and 2 time MO all-state WR Sammy Santana from the St. Louis area

Thanks Mike!!  Don't toot your own horn too much!!   

It might be his dad (I hope), who is also named Mike.

If I had a nickel for every 18-year-old kid who has tried (and failed at) that anonymous self-promotion stunt in one of the d3sports.com rooms, I'd have enough money to treat Mugsy to an Italian beef at Charcoal Delights when he visits Holmgren Field on October 3.

[In my best Homer Simpson voice...]Mmmmm..... Charcoal Delights.   

[Mugsy]

GS, I'm curious about the institutional dislike of Wheaton by NP folks.  How is it different - other than being closer geographically - from the dislike or resentment of Wheaton by many other schools with similar missions? 

Faculty poaching?  Theological differences?  Perceived Wheaton arrogance?  Single-denomination affiliation vs. broadly evangelical affiliation?  Dislike born from institutional similarity - or dissimilarity?  Is it of such a sensitive nature that you can't spell it out beyond "it's an institutional thing"?  Maybe I'm denser than average.  Maybe if I knew more about North Park as an institution and how it differs from Wheaton the answer would be obvious. But I can't figure out what you're saying the source of this longstanding, non-athletically related animosity is.  I'm not trying to argue - just curious.  When you find out someone doesn't like you, you at least want to know why.

It's not a secret, and I'm happy to spell it out for you in the interest of open dialogue and enlightenment. In so doing I run the risk of boring those of us who aren't affiliated with NPU or Wheaton, of course, but when have I ever let the risk of boring people stop me from posting something?

Several of your guesses come close to zeroing in on the answer. The single-denomination evangelical school vs. non-affiliated evangelical school issue does enter into it, because there's a proprietary sense among Covenanters regarding Covie kids and the denominational school. While nobody really thinks that NPU owns the rights to Covie kids, there's still a (not entirely rational) feeling that the Covenant's teenagers (and their parents) should be supporting the school rather than a rival. That doesn't distinguish NPU from some of the other denominationally-affiliated Christian schools that you mentioned (e.g., Calvin, Messiah, both Bethels), but since the Covenant is a small denomination the feeling is more acute. Mugsy's probably encountered some variation of this sentiment in those discussions at Glen Ellyn Covenant to which he's alluded. Still, this isn't the biggest issue behind NPU's anti-Wheaton sentiment.

The "perceived Wheaton arrogance" thing sometimes rears its head as well, which is probably an outgrowth of Wheaton's visibility as the mainstream media's default "get me an interview with an evangelical for this piece" focus upon Wheaton as the archetypical Christian college. But Parkers are reasonable enough (usually ) to realize that Wheaton College doesn't cultivate that; the mainstream media cultivates that. After all, the downside to it is that Wheaton gets ridiculed by the pundits and stereotyped by the public more than does a comparatively anonymous evangelical school such as North Park. And not even the most rabid anti-Wheaton person at NPU would argue that Wheaties foster this arrogance, since (to our consternation) most of you are just too darn nice for us to successfully accuse you of being full of yourselves.

The "theological differences" and "institutional dissimilarity" answers are the closest to hitting the nail on the head. I spoke before of some of the animus borne by Parkers coming from a sense of misunderstanding Wheaton, and this is where that enters into it. There is a widespread suspicion among NPU students and alumni that Wheaton is a fundamentalist school, and that Wheaton is filled with fundamentalists, and while the Covenant has had its share of fundies over the years the denomination itself (and most of its membership) has managed to define itself as broadly evangelical and committed to doctrinal freedom (within biblical bounds, of course) while resisting fundamentalist dogma. Naturally, any Parker with even a scintilla of awareness of what Wheaton is really like (and what truly fundamentalist schools such as Bob Jones and Liberty are really like) doesn't hold that opinion of Wheaton, but, nevertheless, enough do think it for it to be a source of misunderstanding. Like a lot of misunderstandings, it emanates from ignorance of the institution in question.

Some of that perception of Wheaton arises from the fact that Wheaton students have to sign a pledge regarding their social behavior (or, as it is now ironically termed, a "covenant"), whereas the form of in loco parentis practiced by North Park has never involved signing anything. One merely was presented with the rules (which were less stringent than Wheaton's, although Wheaton's recent concession to allow dancing has brought the two schools more in line, social-behavior-wise), and either abided by them or was disciplined for breaking them. But the fact that Wheaton required a signed pledge/covenant of its students (and faculty, too, for that matter) implied the sort of social control and directed behavior usually associated with fundamentalism, which is why so many Parkers over the years have thought of Wheaton and Wheaties as fundie. Remember my mention of that April Fool's issue of the NPC newspaper back in '71? That's a not-so-gentle allusion to said enforced social behavior, which in the fevered imagination of college students often ends up being equated with fascism.

(Ironically, the one area in which Wheaton College might be accused of having fundamentalist overtones -- the school's requirement that faculty members adhere to a premillennialist position in terms of eschatological belief -- is something of which very few Parkers are even aware.)

Nowadays, though, I'd say that by far the biggest source of division -- and by far the biggest source of Parker animosity towards Wheaton -- has to do with institutional dissimilarities. North Park has always differed from Wheaton in that they sit on the opposite sides of the fence in terms of Christian-school enrollment philosophies: North Park is open, and Wheaton is closed. That is to say, NPU does not require its students to make a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, while Wheaton does. North Park is an avowedly evangelical school whose requirements and mission in and out of the classroom are explicitly Christian, and its professors are required to be professing Christians, but it does not require its students to be born-again Christians. Wheaton, on the other hand, does.

Neither enrollment philosophy is better than the other, and there are plenty of examples of both schools within the wider Christian-school rubric. But Wheaton's closed philosophy, coupled with its location in a distant upper-middle-class suburb and its overwhelmingly white, suburban, upper-middle-class student body and orientation, conveys the impression among Parkers that Wheaton is an ivory-tower sanctuary filled with sheltered Christian kids who have no exposure whatsoever to the real world and who are never seriously led to question their faith, or even desire to have their faith challenged.

At NPU, by contrast, the real world is right outside the front door of the dorm (the school is located in a safe neighborhood, but it's an unmistakeably urban environment filled with people of all colors speaking strange languages) and even inside the dorm itself (the kid in the next dorm room over might be a Buddhist from Korea, or a nominal Catholic, or a religiously-indifferent mainline Protestant, etc.). The experiences of the real world in all its nitty-grittiness challenge and refine faith and raise hard questions (or so goes the NPU mantra), even as the school itself tries to shape and nurture by asking those questions within a Christian context. Social-outreach involvement (tutoring inner-city kids, Meals On Wheels, soup-kitchen and homeless shelter work, Habitat For Humanity, ESL tutoring, etc.) is pushed very hard at North Park, and traditionally a very high percentage of resident students are involved in these sorts of urban ministries. At NPU the emphasis is placed upon the thesis in the epistle of James that faith which does not bear fruit in good works is not really faith at all.

Unfortunately, this plays right into the hands of that traditional stereotype of Wheaton and its students. I'm afraid that Parkers sometimes are the ones guilty of arrogance, not Wheaties, because Parkers feel that they are the ones living out Christ's precepts to minister to the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, etc., and that they are the ones who truly have a genuine faith that has been tested by engaging the real world -- the world doesn't get any more "real" than a block of apartment buildings in Albany Park or Uptown -- and its inhabitants. Wheaties, they feel, hold the world at bay by excluding non-Christians from their campus and by residing in a starchy, white-bread Leave It To Beaver suburb.

As I said, there's some truth here mixed in with a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings on the part of my fellow Parkers. My hopes in posting this agonizingly long essay are that: a) some of my fellow Parkers might realize that they don't necessarily have the straight 411 on Wheaton; and b) some of the Wheaton folks who really don't know any thing about, or understand, NPU will grasp a little more of where we're coming from.

Greg,

As someone with knowledge from both sides of this "rivalry", I'd say you hit it right on the head.

BTW:  We had a 6 week series at GEECC on the affirmations of the Covenant denomination.  I have to say I'm even more impressed than ever (even though I've attended a Covenant church all my life) with the denomination.

[Jim Matson]

Greg, very well written!

[lakeshore]

wow Im really surprised to see Joe Davis go to Wheaton.  He is an outstanding young coach, a great representation of our school and an even better recruiter. 

As alums and Viking fans we are sad to see him go.  It will make for an interesting afternoon when the Thunder travel to Chicago for homecoming.

[formerd3db]

I'll join in with the rest of you in saying nicely written Gregory.  A very enlightening piece for those of us who might not know some of the underlying situation.

Also, I would just like to share, if I may, that my college coach Ray Smith of Hope College retired this weekend there.  I have posted a little review/reflection on that over on our MIAA board, so won't reiterate that here.  I'm sure some of you can relate the same about some of your own past mentors.

[zorbadagreek]

So what is the word on the new OC at the Park??

[DIIIinVA]

Great explanation, GS.  Also very fair, IMO.  The NP impressions of Wheaton do contain at least grain of truth - and more than a grain in some cases.  Especially historically but even currently as well.  On the "service" side of things though, when I was there just over 1/3 of the student body was voluntarily involved in the CSC, or "Christian Service Counsel" which committed a person to give 1 afternoon or evening a week to some type of community service - helping the homeless, tutoring kids in the inner city of Chicago, prison visitation, soup kitchen etc.  Still others were involved in similar ministries through their churches.  The overall volunteerism for such things (on a regular basis, not just once or twice a semester) was a lot higher in my experience than it is on most campuses.  So the impression of "they don't care about the rest of the world out there in the cushy suburbs" wasn't universally true. 

I'm glad you distinguished between the impressions of Wheaton as "fundamentalist" vs. the real fundamentalism of a Liberty U or Bob Jones (which thinks Liberty is too liberal).  It's a little disorienting at times to be caught in the crosshairs from both sides.  NP folks may rightly roll their eyes at some of Wheaton's conservative evangelical baggage.  But when I decided to attend Wheaton I had some adult Baptist friends warn me against going to that bastion of liberalism which would surely lead me away from true faith.  According to them I'd be "safer" at a school that was avowedly secular rather than go to one that still wore the Christian label but which had long since abandoned its roots!   

My mother in law attended a Covenant church for a while (actually my wife and I were married in it) and I really liked what I learned of the denomination.  NP also hired one of my favorite bloggers, NT prof Scot McKnight, away from Trinity.  So they are pretty cool in my book.

Sorry for using space on this topic but since it's offseason and the board has otherwise been averaging just a post or three per day, I figured it would be ok to explore what was behind GS's comment.  Hope nobody minds.

[DIIIinVA]

On a football related topic, it looks like the Jags liked what they saw from Ittersagen in the mini camp.  I don't have a subscription to the Jags Scout.com site, but the lead-in looks positive:

http://jac.scout.com/a.z?s=119&p=2&c=864140&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fjac.scout.com%2f2%2f864140.html

[Jim Matson]

The writer comments that Ittersagen was the best CB/KR prospect in all of DIII and is very quick and plays "smart."  But goes on to say that Peter probably doesn't make the team.  With a strong performance in July, he has a shot at the practice squad.

[CCIW]

I don't think this Wheaton/North Park "coach poaching" issue will be resolved without a couple lynchings and at least one burning at the stake.  I'm thinking reciprocal "suicide bombings" in the bookstores would settle some scores.  And by all means, make up some horror stories about the horrible things done on both campuses in the name of God.  Add to that some obscure doctrinal beliefs that will scare the jocks off all the JV football players.  Then we are really cooking.  So let's amp this thing up, boys!  The Chicago west burbs  inquisition has begun.....over a football coach.      

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think this Wheaton/North Park "coach poaching" issue will be resolved without a couple lynchings and at least one burning at the stake.  I'm thinking reciprocal "suicide bombings" in the bookstores would settle some scores.  And by all means, make up some horror stories about the horrible things done on both campuses in the name of God.  Add to that some obscure doctrinal beliefs that will scare the jocks off all the JV football players.  Then we are really cooking.  So let's amp this thing up, boys!  The Chicago west burbs  inquisition has begun.....over a football coach.     

[jarring chord]

Nobody expects the Chicago west 'burbs Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and fear ... fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise ... and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Billy Graham.... Our four ... no.... Amongst our weapons ... amongst our weaponry ... are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[matblake]

I don't think this Wheaton/North Park "coach poaching" issue will be resolved without a couple lynchings and at least one burning at the stake.  I'm thinking reciprocal "suicide bombings" in the bookstores would settle some scores.  And by all means, make up some horror stories about the horrible things done on both campuses in the name of God.  Add to that some obscure doctrinal beliefs that will scare the jocks off all the JV football players.  Then we are really cooking.  So let's amp this thing up, boys!  The Chicago west burbs  inquisition has begun.....over a football coach.     

[jarring chord]

Nobody expects the Chicago west 'burbs Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and fear ... fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise ... and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Billy Graham.... Our four ... no.... Amongst our weapons ... amongst our weaponry ... are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPVuHP3OXk0