Top 25 talk

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Is the top 25 about who are the best teams at the end of the season or who are the best teams right now?  Otherwise what is even the point of doing a poll if results aren't going to matter.

I think voters have different perspectives on that question, honestly.  Pat doesn't dictate what the Top 25 should signify.  I do think it's got to be more than results, though, because the computers are far better at calculating that sort of thing than any group of humans could.

I do think results matter, but I still try to evaluate programs based on more than one game.  I watched the entire Tufts-Babson game.  It was Tufts first real action of the season and they were awful in the first half.  The came back in the second and made it close.  Yes, they lost it, but if they played 10 times, I'd pick Tufts to win more than 5 of them.

I approach my ballot much more focused on the future.  If two teams played tomorrow on a neutral court, who do I think would win?  The results inform that decision, but they don't dictate it.

[KnightSlappy]

Is the top 25 about who are the best teams at the end of the season or who are the best teams right now?  Otherwise what is even the point of doing a poll if results aren't going to matter.

Didn't every voter react to results? Tufts moved down a bunch in the poll. I use results when forming my opinion of teams and constructing my ballot, but I'm specifically trying NOT to take my Top 25 ballot and turn it into a resume contest, at least no this early in the season. I'm still trying to decide who I think would win if teams played next week. We're early in the season and I still lean on my preseason expectations a fair bit. Tufts' play so far has eroded that expectation, but I still think they are good and will be good.

[Pat Coleman]

Regarding Tufts vs. Babson:

• At Babson
• Tufts' first game; Babson's third
• NESCAC schools are not allowed to have outside scrimmages

A voter might react in any of a number of ways to that result.

[stlawus]

A lot of excuses it seems. 

[Pat Coleman]

A lot of excuses it seems. 

It's all data that some of our 25 voters might deem worthy of consideration.

Looks like you may be looking for us to sort teams by wins and losses -- if so, you might want to look at a standings page.

[stlawus]

Like I said, a lot of excuses. This isn't exclusive to d3 hoops (SEC gets the same treatment in CFB).  Just have to do the simple blind test, remove the name Tufts/NESCAC and we all know it's not a ranked team.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	616	Trinity (Conn.)	5-0	def. (n) Sage, 105-46; won at Union, 97-56
#2	583	Randolph-Macon	4-0	IDLE
#3	560	UW-La Crosse	6-0	def. St. John's, 80-65
#4	515	Redlands	5-0	IDLE
#5	511	Washington U.	6-0	def. #37 Wabash, 82-74; def. Colorado College, 92-57; def. Rhodes, 94-78
#6	499	Illinois Wesleyan	5-1	LOST to UW-Stout, 58-66
#7	438	Mary Washington	6-0	IDLE
#8	404	Chicago	5-1	def. (n) Rhodes, 84-70; def. (n) Colorado College, 73-69
#9	394	Emory	3-1	IDLE
#10	372	Hampden-Sydney	4-1	IDLE
#11	342	Wesleyan	3-2	LOST at Farmingdale State, 73-75
#12	286	Calvin	4-1	def. Heidelberg, 74-49
#13	273	Roanoke	4-1	IDLE
#14	237	Montclair State	5-0	def. Rowan, 100-86
#15	193	Virginia Wesleyan	5-1	def. Regent, 74-58; def. (n) Pfeiffer, 83-67; def. (n) Dickinson, 74-56
#16	171	Trinity (Texas)	6-1	won at La Roche, 90-77; def. #46 Hardin-Simmons, 81-73
#17	167	UW-Oshkosh	5-1	won at Edgewood, 90-63; won at Augustana, 84-77
#18	138	Mount Union	7-0	def. Wooster, 81-72
#19	134	WPI	5-1	won at Fitchburg State, 85-65
#20	132	TCNJ	5-1	def. William Paterson, 85-68
#21	131	Catholic	5-1	def. Marymount, 69-56
#22	98	Tufts	5-2	won at MIT, 74-67; won at Keene State, 82-79
#23	97	Drew	6-0	won at St. Joseph's (L.I.), 86-74
#24	93	Hood	6-0	IDLE
#25	85	Whitworth	4-0	IDLE

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	80	Maryville	7-2	def. Hanover, 84-68
#27	68	Christopher Newport	5-2	def. Dickinson, 79-68; def. Pfeiffer, 80-66
#28	65	St. Thomas (Texas)	5-1	def. #46 Hardin-Simmons, 80-74 OT; def. Mary Hardin-Baylor, 77-71
T#29	45	Carthage	3-2	won at Ripon, 84-56
T#29	45	Williams	5-1	def. Massachusetts College, 87-41; LOST at Rhode Island College, 63-70
#31	44	Coe	5-1	LOST at MSOE, 72-81
#32	40	Babson	6-1	def. Wentworth, 98-54; def. St. Joseph (Conn.), 87-82
#33	32	Trine	4-2	LOST at Anderson, 81-95
#34	31	Western New England	6-0	def. Worcester State, 72-57
#35	27	UW-Platteville	4-2	def. Augustana, 76-74 OT
#36	25	Endicott	6-1	IDLE
#37	21	Wabash	3-1	LOST at #5 Washington U., 74-82
#38	20	Elmhurst	5-0	won at DePauw, 75-71
#39	19	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	7-0	def. Linfield, 70-48; def. (n) Puget Sound, 86-64
#40	18	York (Pa.)	5-0	IDLE
#41	13	John Carroll	4-0	IDLE
T#42	11	Colby	6-0	won at Lasell, 75-66; def. Maine-Fort Kent, 81-62
T#42	11	New York University	6-0	won at Cal Lutheran, 78-63; def. (n) George Fox, 105-69
#44	10	Muskingum	6-0	def. Earlham, 82-72
#45	9	UW-Stevens Point	5-1	LOST at North Park, 114-115 3OT
#46	7	Hardin-Simmons	4-4	LOST at #28 St. Thomas (Texas), 74-80 OT; LOST at #16 Trinity (Texas), 73-81
#47	3	Franklin and Marshall	6-1	def. Eastern, 85-73; def. Hamilton, 74-53
T#48	1	Vassar	4-0	IDLE
T#48	1	Washington and Jefferson	5-2	IDLE
T#48	1	UW-Eau Claire	8-0	won at Bethel, 68-52; def. St. Olaf, 85-65

Darryl, thank you very much for doing "How They Fared" again.  It's a huge help as a Top 25 voter. Hope all is well.

My pleasure; I'm happy to contribute to the cause.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	624	Trinity (Conn.)	7-0	won at St. Joseph (Conn.), 72-68; def. #32 Babson, 77-44
#2	579	Randolph-Macon	6-0	def. #8 Hampden-Sydney, 85-50; def. #14 Roanoke, 66-61
#3	570	UW-La Crosse	7-0	won at Ripon, 72-62
#4	536	Washington U.	7-0	def. Webster, 84-79
#5	531	Redlands	5-1	LOST at Chapman, 63-75
#6	478	Mary Washington	8-0	won at Gettysburg, 65-52; def. Dickinson, 88-74
#7	418	Chicago	7-1	won at Lake Forest, 84-80; def. Kalamazoo, 103-64
#8	401	Hampden-Sydney	5-2	LOST at #2 Randolph-Macon, 50-85; won at Eastern Mennonite, 64-62
#9	390	Emory	5-1	def. Huntingdon, 93-78; def. Berry, 90-65
#10	375	Illinois Wesleyan	6-2	won at T#30 Carthage, 85-81 OT; LOST at North Central (Ill.), 57-68
#11	327	Calvin	5-1	def. #17 UW-Oshkosh, 89-52
#12	266	Montclair State	7-0	def. William Paterson, 102-75; won at Rutgers-Newark, 87-74
#13	263	Virginia Wesleyan	7-1	def. Eastern Mennonite, 70-65; def. Randolph, 71-62
#14	231	Roanoke	5-2	won at Guilford, 98-79; LOST at #2 Randolph-Macon, 61-66
#15	219	Trinity (Texas)	6-2	LOST at #26 St. Thomas (Texas), 53-66
#16	216	Mount Union	8-0	def. Otterbein, 75-63
#17	192	UW-Oshkosh	6-2	def. Benedictine, 87-71; LOST at #11 Calvin, 52-89
#18	162	Catholic	7-1	won at Juniata, 86-71; def. Wilkes, 91-79
#19	149	TCNJ	5-3	LOST at Stockton, 64-80; LOST to Kean, 64-68
#20	144	Drew	7-1	LOST to Elizabethtown, 93-95 OT; def. Lycoming, 75-72
#21	141	Hood	6-1	LOST at T#46 Johns Hopkins, 89-93
#22	139	WPI	7-1	won at #32 Babson, 65-60; won at Clark, 76-72
#23	113	Wesleyan	5-2	def. Worcester State, 83-75; def. #38 Williams, 65-54
#24	106	Tufts	7-2	def. Bridgewater State, 121-67; def. Lasell, 87-59
#25	86	Whitworth	4-1	LOST to Mary Hardin-Baylor, 90-92

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	85	St. Thomas (Texas)	6-1	def. #15 Trinity (Texas), 66-53
#27	52	Maryville (Tenn.)	9-2	def. JWU-Charlotte, 94-70; def. East Texas Baptist, 76-63
#28	48	UW-Eau Claire	8-0	IDLE
#29	38	New York U.	7-1	LOST at Yeshiva, 83-88; def. Farmingdale State, 84-68
T#30	35	Christopher Newport	7-2	won at Marymount, 82-70; won at Southern Virginia, 81-58
T#30	35	Carthage	4-3	LOST to #10 Illinois Wesleyan, 81-85 OT; def. Carroll, 81-76
#32	28	Babson	6-3	LOST to #22 WPI, 60-65; LOST at #1 Trinity (Conn.), 44-77
#33	21	York (Pa.)	7-0	def. Dickinson, 88-72; def. Delaware Valley, 70-57
#34	20	UW-Platteville	5-2	def. T#48 Dubuque, 81-73
#35	19	Western New England	7-2	LOST to Hartford, 74-76; LOST to (n) Eastern Connecticut, 56-74; def. (n) Maine-Fort Kent, 81-66
#36	16	Endicott	8-1	won at Regis (Mass.), 77-61; won at Wentworth, 91-56
#37	14	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	9-0	def. La Verne, 77-68; won at Whittier, 70-59
#38	12	Williams	6-2	def. T#48 Vassar, 79-69; LOST at #23 Wesleyan, 54-65
#39	11	John Carroll	5-1	def. St. Vincent, 104-79; LOST at Wittenberg, 79-80
#40	9	Elmhurst	5-2	LOST at UW-Whitewater, 72-88; LOST at Wheaton (Ill.), 81-82
#41	7	Muskingum	8-0	won at Capital, 95-78; def. Baldwin Wallace, 80-61
#42	4	Colby	6-1	LOST at St. Joseph's (Maine), 81-82 OT
T#43	3	Bates	7-0	won at Bowdoin, 54-50
T#43	3	Franklin and Marshall	7-1	won at Stevens, 77-74 OT
T#43	3	North Park	5-2	LOST at Carroll, 78-81; def. Millikin, 78-65
T#46	2	Johns Hopkins	6-1	def. #21 Hood, 93-89; def. Swarthmore, 76-69
T#46	2	UW-Stevens Point	6-1	def. North Central (Minn.), 78-65
T#48	1	Dubuque	5-2	LOST to Loras, 69-84; LOST at #34 UW-Platteville, 73-81
T#48	1	Vassar	6-1	LOST at #38 Williams, 69-79; def. Ithaca, 86-82; def. Hobart, 85-74

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of Tufts, I came across something interesting while doing research this morning for North Park's men's basketball record book. I was reading an old issue of the school newspaper, and I came across a reprint of the Associated Press NCAA Division III poll for January 7, 1986:

1. Potsdam State (NY) 10-0
2. Wisconsin-Whitewater 8-0
3. DePauw (IN) 9-1
4. Clark (MA) 9-0
5. Moravian (PA) 7-1
6. Trenton State (NJ) 10-1
7. LeMoyne-Owen (TN) 9-1
8. Otterbein (OH) 11-2
9. Hamilton (NY) 5-1
10. Washington (MD) 8-1
11. Upsala (NJ) 10-1
12. St. John's (MN) 7-0
13. Hartwick (NY) 8-0
14. Wittenberg (OH) 12-1
15. Scranton (PA) 9-2
16. North Park (IL) 9-3
17. CSC-Stanislaus (CA) 10-2
18. Jersey City State (NJ) 10-2
19. Tufts (MA) 5-2
20. Centre (KY) 8-3

A lot has changed in four decades, of course. CSC-Stanislaus (now CSU Stanislaus) and LeMoyne-Owen both moved to D2 many years ago. Upsala closed its doors over three decades ago. Trenton State is now the College of New Jersey, and Jersey City State is now New Jersey City.

The only school that was in this AP D3 Top Twenty poll from four decades ago that is also in the current D3hoops Top 25 poll is ... wait for it ... Tufts.

Cue the angry retort from stlawus.