MBB: NESCAC

[madzillagd]

Having only seen the 3 play on webcasts and not in person, I would have to agree with you middhoops.  I couldn't tell if it was just the camera placement and the intimacy of LeFrak but the Midd-Amherst games do come over the internet as quite hostile and I don't get that same vibe watching the Williams games. 

[jayhawk]

Oh come on

I try to be very positive on this board -
as far as hostile as a former player at Amherst and attending many games. Chandler is hostile towards Amherst but the hostility is not a bad one it is not mean

I sat next to Middlebury yesterday and I was extremely surprised - serious helicopter parents. Serious hostility
Amherst fans are not perfect but I was surprised.

That said part of the problem is that Amherst has won , most recently a national championship
Additionally Aaron Toomey was national player - I can not believe how much opposing teams try to body him up
There were some odd flops yesterday and one time a player grabbed Toomey and pulled him down and Toomey got the foul

Unfortunately  there is a target on the back of Amherst and Toomey - goes with winning national championship and being player of the year.

[Bucket]

Oh come on

I try to be very positive on this board -
as far as hostile as a former player at Amherst and attending many games. Chandler is hostile towards Amherst but the hostility is not a bad one it is not mean

I sat next to Middlebury yesterday and I was extremely surprised - serious helicopter parents. Serious hostility
Amherst fans are not perfect but I was surprised.

That said part of the problem is that Amherst has won , most recently a national championship
Additionally Aaron Toomey was national player - I can not believe how much opposing teams try to body him up
There were some odd flops yesterday and one time a player grabbed Toomey and pulled him down and Toomey got the foul

Unfortunately  there is a target on the back of Amherst and Toomey - goes with winning national championship and being player of the year.

I'm confused...was anyone saying otherwise? Why the "oh come on"? If I'm not being obtuse, all who have commented on the Amherst-Middlebury crowd/environment agreed that it's a shared level of angst, with "episodes" exhibited by both sides.

And yes, I agree that top players and teams take everyone's best shot. During Ryan Sharry's senior year--when he was player of the year and a first-team all american--he would emerge from games bearing physical scars. The bigger the game, the more physical the play, the more bruises, scratches, cuts, etc. Nothing dirty. Just taking everyone's best shot. And he always shrugged it off, as I'm sure Aaron does too.

I gotta say--and please remember that I'm on the record as opining that Aaron is far and away the best player in the conference if not the country--he does his fair share of embellishing contact, himself. I was relieved to see the officials keeping their whistles silent when he employed a little bit of drama on a three, a case of initiating   contact with a leg kick forward and then falling down. (Rashid Sulieman at Duke has perfected this maneuver.) I've seen officials actually call offensive fouls on players when they've done this. More often than not, though, officials can be duped into a call. Yesterday, I was glad that didn't happen.

And let me also acknowledge that Joey Kizel is also artful in driving and drawing contact--often for and-ones. I'm sure this drives opposing teams and fans nuts. I honestly don't know if he's embellishing contact or if he has just figured out how to draw the contact while maintaining enough body control to still get a good shot off. Either way, he's made an art form of it, and as a Middlebury fan, I love it.

[amh63]

Where are the recent posts going?  Negative crowd atmosphere from adults no less?  I watched online and heard little of the comments from the crowd over the calls.  Bad hearing and inadequate sound transmission?  Who knows.  Does calls against a team arouse people....sure.  I saw one call...pointed out by the announcer that mentioned it was like a sumo type hold on Toomey.  Blame the announcer for the crowd behavior....why not.  I will point out one call in the second half by a ref to illustrate the kind of day the refs must be having.
Amherst has the ball and brings it up to the front court...facing the curtain.  Amherst player is called on going into the backcourt...pointing to the black line.  Amherst points to the gold/ yellow line as the half court line.  Refs discuss?  Amherst gets the ball back and play continues.  Announcers cover for the refs by saying it is confusing with so many lines on the floor.
Guess it was not a good day for the refs wrt calls.  Crowds get upset over calls...both sides.  Guess I am blaming the refs.   

I have attended the last big weekends of the seasons when Williams and Middlebury arrive in LeFrak.  Full house, overflow crowds with students sitting on the floors and standing blocking my views.  Amherst students challenging Williams students...shouting at each other, etc.  great games, great atmosphere , great fun....positive tension?  Middlebury games have great crowds but less or none  students versus students.  Yes there are more grown ups involved...do not understand why.  Important games, tight games and every call is critical...true.  Different atmosphere...true.

Bottom line for me is...not worth any more posting on the matter.  In several weeks hope to attend the semi final games in LeFrak.  Hope The panthers and the LJs will have teams there.  Hope to have the chance to meet Middhoops, Vandy74, AmStud05 and other posters...maybe buy them all a beer...do not drink beer really.  Wonder if the recommended place is the old Amherst Brewery?  Is it next to the firehouse?

[Bucket]

Where are the recent posts going?  Negative crowd atmosphere from adults no less?  I watched online and heard little of the comments from the crowd over the calls.  Bad hearing and inadequate sound transmission?  Who knows.  Does calls against a team arouse people....sure.  I saw one call...pointed out by the announcer that mentioned it was like a sumo type hold on Toomey.  Blame the announcer for the crowd behavior....why not.  I will point out one call in the second half by a ref to illustrate the kind of day the refs must be having.
Amherst has the ball and brings it up to the front court...facing the curtain.  Amherst player is called on going into the backcourt...pointing to the black line.  Amherst points to the gold/ yellow line as the half court line.  Refs discuss?  Amherst gets the ball back and play continues.  Announcers cover for the refs by saying it is confusing with so many lines on the floor.
Guess it was not a good day for the refs wrt calls.  Crowds get upset over calls...both sides.  Guess I am blaming the refs.   

I have attended the last big weekends of the seasons when Williams and Middlebury arrive in LeFrak.  Full house, overflow crowds with students sitting on the floors and standing blocking my views.  Amherst students challenging Williams students...shouting at each other, etc.  great games, great atmosphere , great fun....positive tension?  Middlebury games have great crowds but less or none  students versus students.  Yes there are more grown ups involved...do not understand why.  Important games, tight games and every call is critical...true.  Different atmosphere...true.

Bottom line for me is...not worth any more posting on the matter.  In several weeks hope to attend the semi final games in LeFrak.  Hope The panthers and the LJs will have teams there.  Hope to have the chance to meet Middhoops, Vandy74, AmStud05 and other posters...maybe buy them all a beer...do not drink beer really.  Wonder if the recommended place is the old Amherst Brewery?  Is it next to the firehouse?

Yep. Agree with everything you wrote. Except the omission of me as one you hope to meet and buy a beer. And I worked with your son at Sidwell, for pete's sake!

[jayhawk]

sorry

angst meaning worried is a correct statement

jumped before thinking carefully

As I have said before I have a lot of respect for Middlebury and their coaches - who have done an excellent job of developing players

Brown is going to be a good one and Sinnickson is talented

[nescac1]

30 for 30, I think your cherry-picking of Robinson's worst games of the season is a bit ridiculous. I'm sure I could pick out a few important games that Hart didn't perform well.  I note that many of Duncan's tougher games happened earlier in the season -- he has improved by leaps and bounds over the course of the year as he has grown comfortable being the leading offensive option, after starting as a more deferential first-year.  And maybe he didn't receive tons of attention from Hamilton, but in recent weeks he has received plenty of attention from opposing defenses -- remember, in many of those games Williams was playing without Rooke-Ley and Epley, and Duncan was one of two primary options on offense.  Guys would guard him out to 24 feet, and he would simply nail 26 footers.  He continually broke down his man off the dribble and either scored or made a perfect pass.  Robinson can create his own offense in ways Hart simply can not.  He lit up Bowdoin and Colby, two very good teams, really carried Williams to victory in those two games.  But really, it's been over the past seven games that he has truly come into his own, and he is a totally different guy over the past few weeks (which coincided with the heart of NESCAC play). 

I'll tell you what -- ask ANY coach in NESCAC which player they would rather have, and I'd bet big money, if they were being honest, they would say Robinson -- he just does so much more on the floor than Hart.  Again, no disrespect to Hart who I think is one of the top five players in NESCAC, and certainly the top sophomore in the league.  But I believe that Robinson is right now the second best player in the league, and I know I'm not alone.  It hurts Hart that so much of the focus of opposing defenses is on him.  But it also helps him that play after play in Hamilton's offense involves guys setting screens to get him the ball in good scoring position.  If Duncan was option 1A on virtually every play, I don't care what opposing defenses threw at him, he'd easily score over 25 ppg, albeit without the superhuman shooting percentages.  And again you totally ignore the defensive side of the floor, where Hart is not much of a factor but Robinson has consistently created turnovers and blocked or altered shots on the interior. 

On another issue, even watching the webcast of Amherst vs. Midd, it did seem like both sides of the crowd were vociferously protesting almost every call (especially on two occasions when calls were reversed, once each to the benefit of each team, and each time correctly).  I thought the game was called even -- Toomey's first two foul calls were obvious fouls, I thought (one looked purposeful to stop a fast break, in fact) I saw no grounds whatsoever for complaint on those.  And he certainly has a propensity for exaggerating the slightest contact, drawing a lot of fouls.  He does get absolutely hammered on many of his fearless drives into the lane, but it's hard to distinguish those occasions from the times that he (very, very artfully) reacts strongly to far less substantial contact.  At the same time, Midd played very physical ball and not all of that physicality resulted in foul calls.  So both sides had some good cause for complaint, and complain they did. 

I've never been to Pepin gymnasium (will have to put it on my Bucket list, along with meeting Bucket), but I do think the atmosphere at Chandler and Lefrak is very different for two reasons.  First, Williams hoops is a main event in Williamstown, so the crowds, while bigger overall (due to substantially larger capacity) for big games tend to be composed of a higher percentage of locals, who are not, let's say, as animated as students or parents.  And there are always a TON of little kids at big games in Chandler, which I think tends to act as a constraint on crowd behavior, most people don't want to be a TOTAL jerk when a five year old is two rows in front of them cheering for his or her favorite Eph.  Also, the two gyms have a very different feel.  In Lefrak, the crowd is jammed in right on top of the action, and the ceiling is very low.  Chandler is bigger, airier, and far less claustrophobic, so I think the crowd interaction isn't quite as in-your-face. 

[7express]

Bottom line for me is...not worth any more posting on the matter.  In several weeks hope to attend the semi final games in LeFrak.  Hope The panthers and the LJs will have teams there.  Hope to have the chance to meet Middhoops, Vandy74, AmStud05 and other posters...maybe buy them all a beer...do not drink beer really.  Wonder if the recommended place is the old Amherst Brewery?  Is it next to the firehouse?

Hopefully Tufts women lose this week, so Amherst can get double hosting duty again.  I'm gonna try to go up there for the final game that Sunday, but I have to be back in Connecticut by 6:30 for a dinner my parents are having.  So, if the game starts any later than 2 PM, I'll be stuck watching it on the computer.  On second thought maybe the Tufts women should win???

[middhoops]

nescac1, when you come to Vermont, let Vandy and me put you up and show you around.   Enemy territory but diehard hoops fans, nonetheless.  also, by then, OG will be back and he doesn't hate Williams.
as the season comes closer to an end, I'd like to thank you for your cogent thinking and willingness to respond to all manner of posts that the rest of us depend upon you for.  you are a mensch.

[AmherstStudent05]

nescac1, in defense of 30 for 30, I am not quite sure it is fair to accuse him of "cherry picking" necessarily.  What he has done, or at least purported to do (I haven't verified the numbers myself), is to analyze Robinson's numbers against the top teams in the NESCAC.  While far from a dispositive inquiry, this method of analysis does have its uses - indeed, I believe you employed it yourself, or something very close to it, when discussing Nolan Thompson last year.

Also, I still say that, right now, Mayer is better than DR (I'd take Kizel too, but again, on all these things, the gap is closing in an unprecedented hurry).  You obviously follow Williams more closely than I do, and I might be biased by the Amherst games, where I think all would agree that Mayer posed a much greater threat to Amherst than DR, but I have watched a fair amount of basketball myself and I still prefer Mayer.  Even when he has a bad game he goes for a double-double!

Still, on the larger point, I agree with you entirely.  Duncan Robinson has had a phenomenal year and has to be a First Team All NESCAC selection.  Hart may well join DR on the first team, but DR has to go on first.  His efficiency numbers and all court game are just too good.

Amh63, for the second time today Bucket has stolen my thunder.  I too agree with your post.

[Panthernation]

On the drive up to Amherst yesterday, I read with great interest PN's preview of the Amherst game.  PN discussed how intense the Amherst-Middlebury rivalry has become.  Had I had a computer at hand, I would have reprised the point that Vandy and I made last year: namely, that as competitive as Midd has been over the past 5 years, the rivalry with Williams is just a completely different animal that can't be compared to Midd.

From the stands, Williams likely engenders more passion from Amherst fans, but the point we made regarded on-floor play over the past four years. With that in mind, if you had to rank the top 10 games in NESCAC play over the past four seasons, Middlebury's semifinal win over Amherst in 2011 (14-point second-half comeback and 18 overall), the two games at LeFrak in 2012 (two-point Amherst win in overtime to determine who hosted the NESCAC Tournament and two-point Amherst win in the NESCAC Finals) and last year's triple overtime game would all be in the top 10, with the last two perhaps the best two games over that span.

Last year's NESCAC final between Williams and Amherst would probably be the best competition for the two spot, but other than that the rivalry has been shockingly one-sided. Amherst has won 7 straight games against Williams and their last four wins have been by 12, 11, 17 and 16 points. Again, there is a special relationship between the two schools, teams and fan bases, but as far as on-the-floor product (certainly at the time of writing) Middlebury and Amherst have shared an on-floor rivalry that has eclipsed (in intensity, consistency and magnitude) anything two other conference teams have produced over the past four years.

[30 for 30]

Thanks for standing in AS05. Nescac1 I did not cherry pick DR worst games I simply looked up how he did against the best teams and did the same for Hart. I believe it's fair game to expect the presumed best players to play big in big games especially if you want to elevate a player to no debate all star status. It sounds like you agree Hart is a firm top 5 choice, good enough for this year. The other stuff will get settled over the next two years. Will be fun to watch. One more comment. Hart is the best shooter off the dribble in the league, a lost art that surely a studious fan like your self can appreciate. With that skill he creates plenty of his own shots. He's not a 3 point chucker like so many of his peers of similar body type and height. Review the Amherst film and watch Killian flaying his arms trying to defend the guy off the dribble.

[magicman]

Just an off the wall observation.
Having attended all the recent Midd vs. Amherst and Midd vs. Williams games for around five years and dozens over the decades, I just gotta say: Williams fans are happy and spirited.  Amherst and Middlebury fans harbor a bit more angst below the surface.  I like games at Chandler Gym.
These three teams play each other all out, every time.  Middlebury can't possibly intrude on the history the other institutions have between them.  It's nice to be mentioned in the same breath during the seasons when we deserve it, however.
Being a NESCAC fan is more collaborative that most boards I follow.  What say you, magicman?

middhoops.
I have to agree with everything you've stated. So many games between these three teams have been classics over the past 7 years  or so. And you're right the NESCAC board is highly collaborative. So many other conference boards lack the numbers that the this board has always had. Of course it seems the big three have more than their share of posters.    

[amh63]

Back again.....need to respond to some posts ......not really but they will be positive ones.

First....Middhoops....be careful with your generous offer to nescac1.  In the true meaning of "bucket list", Pepin maybe replaced by Middlebury's new president several times over...due to the demands of the local community for a bigger facility in honor of the great Panther teams under Coach Brown.  Nescac 1 is a young dude!  To put it another way....my discussions with Nescac1 at a football function in D.C. revealed that my older brother and his father may have been at Harvard together.  Need you to answer my question if the recommended pub is next to firehouse on S. Pleasant St.

Bucket, I'm sorry if I forgot...You too Jayhawk.  As a excuse, I believe I rather go somewhere else.  Maybe to the Lord Jeff Inn...a smaller version of the Middlebury Inn...but recently completely renovated.  Working on my travel plans and who to stay with....whether to take the train or to fly up....all dependent on next week's game results.  Several years ago, when I meet OG via Walzy in LeFrak....YG was there, I asked about you but you had left.  In any case....it will be my pleasure.

Oh yes...the Inn is next to the DU house...Coach Hixon's frat and a brother of Vandy's. 

AmStud05....you were sitting behind the Amherst bench!  Serious Alumni supporters sit there.  Big money people.  Former Chairman of the Board of Trustees sits there...fan of the WBB team.  He was also Prez of Hampshire College and the Williamsburg Foundation in Va., I believe.   Me, I sit opposite with the parents and former players and others.  Mainly the cheap seats with only a sprinkling of serious donors that I am aware of...but who knows these days.

[madzillagd]

30 - if we were truly going to take the top 4 Williams games in league it would be Trin, Am, Midd and Bowdoin. In those  4 games DR shot 12-23 from 3, 5-9 from 2.  Williams went 3-1.  Hart in his top 4 (Wil, Am, Midd, Bow) went 11-27 from 3, 21-42 from 2. Hamilton went 1-3.

What's more important to voters do you think - winning 2 more conference games or taking 37 more shots?