MBB: NESCAC

[NYHoopsGuru]

Am I missing something? All this talk about Okorougo, Lazarre, Pouye, Cuevas, etc for being POTY - well deserved, of course - yet, there is no talk about the season Henry Vetter is having. Second leading scorer on ridiculous efficiency (52/46/88), while taking every teams best shot. Vetter is usually handling the other teams best defender. If Trinity wins out, and Vetter keeps this efficiency up, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. Cuevas has outstanding numbers, but they must win games. Reminds me of an interesting situation from a season ago...

[D3BBALL]

Am I missing something? All this talk about Okorougo, Lazarre, Pouye, Cuevas, etc for being POTY - well deserved, of course - yet, there is no talk about the season Henry Vetter is having. Second leading scorer on ridiculous efficiency (52/46/88), while taking every teams best shot. Vetter is usually handling the other teams best defender. If Trinity wins out, and Vetter keeps this efficiency up, we shouldn't even be having this discussion. Cuevas has outstanding numbers, but they must win games. Reminds me of an interesting situation from a season ago...

Exactly and Vetter gets hurt that Trinity has 3 players that will/should be on first team, so he doesn't get the same number of shots as everyone. But his shooting numbers except free throws are career highs by a large margin. And his defense has been very good.
Last year the coaches got it wrong and may happen again. He has to be right up there with everyone else as a contender right now. I had Pouye up there but he has taken a step back on my list. In making the case for Cuevas, in Bowdoin's 4 losses Cuevas has been outstanding in the second half of those 4 games. Something that the coaches didn't look at last year when choosing the winner.

[jumbomumbo]

Alumni weekend in Medford coming up. Will be great times and hoping to see the jumbos take care of business. Last year I took many shots at Williams, but this year it will just be this one today. They never beat us. Someone please fact check, but I don't think we've lost to them since 2018.

[jumbomumbo]

Shoot never mind guys I was definitely part of the team that lost to them in 2020.

[toad22]

Alumni weekend in Medford coming up. Will be great times and hoping to see the jumbos take care of business. Last year I took many shots at Williams, but this year it will just be this one today. They never beat us. Someone please fact check, but I don't think we've lost to them since 2018.

True, the Jumbos have owned the Ephs for the better part of a decade. Ahhhh!

[el_jefe_90]

JUMBO, looking back at the schedules, the Ephs defeated Tufts in 2019 and 2020. 2019 at Tufts was an 85-61 final. In 2020. the Ephs won 71-66. The second game was the battle of the bigs. Luke Rogers had 26 points and 12 boards. Matt Karpowicz had 19 points and 10 boards.

After the first week of NESCAC, it certainly looks like Trinity, Tufts and Wesleyan are going to be the top teams. Amherst could be the dark horse team that sneaks into the top 4, especially after their wins over Wesleyan and Bates. Perhaps we oversold on Bates after their tough start?

As mentioned previously, 3 or 4-8 could be up in the air. Williams and Middlebury could both start NESCAC play 0-4 with easier schedules on the backend. That 1/24 game could determine who gets into the NESCAC Tournament. Wesleyan has a home heavy schedule now, and doesn't have to take the trip to Maine. That could help them secure a home seed.

Just when you think you have a handle on this conference, something big changes everything. I still have 1/30 and 1/31 circled for Tufts hosting Wesleyan and Trinity. That weekend certainly could decide who gets the 1 seed.

[nescac1]

Just wanted to give a shout-out for the exhibition of Jewish hoops brilliance on display last night in the Wesleyan-Yeshiva game.  Obviously, all the Yeshiva players, but also Oscar Edelman and Sam Pohlman (both definitely members of the tribe) and Zach Wolinski (unconfirmed, but my radar says yes) having big games.  As a fellow tribesman with a more stereotypical level of hoops ability, I solute you! 

On a different note, in response to D3bball's belief that coaches got POTY wrong last year, I think this year has only helped to confirm that Hank Morgan was deserving.  Hamilton, a tourney team who could compete with anyone last year, has totally fallen apart without Morgan (and Singh too, but Morgan was obviously the driving force behind their success).  Wesleyan lost Regan AND another all-American and while clearly worse are still a very strong team overall.  I realize that Morgan did get worn down by the end of some key games but he had to carry SUCH a heavy load last year.

For similar reasons I'm on team Cuevas (so far!) this year.  Vetter, Okorougo, and Gyimesi are all absolutely deserving candidates but they also benefit from having SO much more talent around them.  Cuevas is having the best statistical season in the league and (like Morgan last year) scoring with incredible efficiency despite being the one guy that every scouting report is going to key on.

[SpringSt7]

Vetter POY to me almost no matter what. He was the only guy who played on the first Final Four team that is still in the rotation. He is the heartbeat and the number one reason they have been this good. People around Trinity will tell you the same thing. Numbers don't pop like we expect so we look elsewhere but Vetter has been the straw for three years and is gonna go down as the most underappreciated player in NESCAC history

[SpringSt7]

Nice bounceback win for Colby against Bowdoin. Civello 20-9-6 on 8-12 from the floor and 4-8 from 3. They probably aren't a tournament team but he gives them something a little different and they will be a tough out for anyone. Poulton had 19 - hard to believe that is his season high and just his 6th double digit scoring game of the year - but they need to get him going. Hinman has been slumping just a little lately but has the ability to go nuclear as well. No Marcos Montiel however, hopefully not a long term issue.

The league this year is as strong/even in the middle as it has been for a while now that Conn is firmly back in the mix and Bates and Bowdoin are out of their recent ruts. Almost every game is competitive which makes for a lot of fun

[D3BBALL]

Vetter POY to me almost no matter what. He was the only guy who played on the first Final Four team that is still in the rotation. He is the heartbeat and the number one reason they have been this good. People around Trinity will tell you the same thing. Numbers don't pop like we expect so we look elsewhere but Vetter has been the straw for three years and is gonna go down as the most underappreciated player in NESCAC history

Vetter is special and should be one of the favorites for POY. But he is not the only rotation player from the final 4 team 2 years ago. Okorougo (who is a 1,000 point scorer and will end up with around 800 rebounds) was a starter on that team and Lazarre, McDonald and Berry were in the rotation all year that year as well, all playing very well. IMO, on the first final 4 team, Smith was the heartbeat of that team, and I would say last year Lazarre was the heartbeat of that team. Neither was/is considered the best player on that team, although I might disagree. 2 years ago, the 2nd team was the reason they beat Calvin in the Elite 8, the starters were not good in that game. That was with Lazarre, Berry, McDonald and T Davis (who replaced an injured player for that game) and outplayed the Calvin all American center by a lot. Vetter/Callahan-Gold in the Elite 8 and Semi games, shot like 25% combined. They won one gamed and still had a shot against Trine. Last year in the championship game, Vetter was great the last 4 minutes of the game shooting wise (before that I think he had 6 points and was not shooting well), but without Okorougo offensively the first 35 minutes, and the team defense the entire game, not sure that team even has a shot to win at the end. Even in the semi-final game it was a team win as Vetter did not shoot well in that game either.

Not taking anything away from Vetter as he has been great, but for Trinity it has been a team, you can't discount what Smith, Callahan-Gold, Okpoebo did 2 years ago and Dorion and Macarchuk as well as others for the past 2 years has contributed to the success. They have had the last 2 defensive players of the year in the league and in Smith, one that shut down the other team's best player, no matter what position it was. He guarded Nicky Johnson PG to David Murry C and any players from shooting guard to forward. Okorougo and Lazaare picked it up last year along with bench players.

Vetter as pointed out above is having a great year shooting the ball, just look at his stats/percentages. But his first 3 years, his percentages except FT shooting are not lights out like they are this year. This senior group if it continues to play the way there are, will go down as one of the best classes of all time in the NESCAC, but it has been a group effort.   

[nescac1]

Agree that the Trinity senior class of Vetter, Okorougo, Lazarre, McDonald and Jordan is in contention for best NESCAC class of all time and if they win another national title I think I'd give them GOAT status. It's hard to pick one guy from that group as definitively the best - if forced to I go with Okorougo, but really it's how they play as a group that makes them truly special. 

Other contenders for greatest NESCAC class of all time:

1998 Williams: Mike Nogelo, Grant Farmer, Brendan McGuire (injury to Farmer limiting his impact as an upperclassman knocks them out, but that core did get to two Final Fours and Nogelo has the best individual resume)
2004 Williams: Ben Coffin, Mike Crotty, Chuck Abba - and Blake Morgan was supposed to be up there with them before a severe injury
2008 Amherst: Andrew Olson, Fletcher Walters, Matt Goldsmith, Kevin Hopkins, Brandon Jones, Adolphe Coulibaly
2010 Williams: Blake Schultz, Joe Geoghegan, Alex Rubin, Ethan Timmins-Schiffman, Charlie Cates, Will Hardy (do you get extra points for being the best hoops coach NESCAC has ever produced?). 
2013 Amherst: Willy Workman, Allen Williamson, Peter Kaasila (yeah Toomey was the best guy on that squad but still an insanely good trio by the time they graduated)
HM to 2019 Williams: Bobby Casey, James Heskett, Kyle Scadlock, Michael Kempton, Marcos Soto, Jake Porath (not really a contender but the biggest what if - if Scadlock hadn't gotten injured I think they'd be right up there, but as is, just didn't win enough). 

My current rankings: 2008 Amherst, 2026 Trinity, 2004 Williams.  I think the Trinity group has to win another title to eclipse that crazy 2008 Amherst class.  Olson is better than any current Trinity player, Trinity's next two are clearly better than Amherst's next two, but Amherst had a bigger class with more quality depth and a similar level of overall success - it's close. 

[D3BBALL]

Just wanted to give a shout-out for the exhibition of Jewish hoops brilliance on display last night in the Wesleyan-Yeshiva game.  Obviously, all the Yeshiva players, but also Oscar Edelman and Sam Pohlman (both definitely members of the tribe) and Zach Wolinski (unconfirmed, but my radar says yes) having big games.  As a fellow tribesman with a more stereotypical level of hoops ability, I solute you! 

On a different note, in response to D3bball's belief that coaches got POTY wrong last year, I think this year has only helped to confirm that Hank Morgan was deserving.  Hamilton, a tourney team who could compete with anyone last year, has totally fallen apart without Morgan (and Singh too, but Morgan was obviously the driving force behind their success).  Wesleyan lost Regan AND another all-American and while clearly worse are still a very strong team overall.  I realize that Morgan did get worn down by the end of some key games but he had to carry SUCH a heavy load last year.

For similar reasons I'm on team Cuevas (so far!) this year.  Vetter, Okorougo, and Gyimesi are all absolutely deserving candidates but they also benefit from having SO much more talent around them.  Cuevas is having the best statistical season in the league and (like Morgan last year) scoring with incredible efficiency despite being the one guy that every scouting report is going to key on.

We are going to disagree on this forever LOL.

My 3 points are that 1) in the 2nd half of games in losses, Morgan was not good, Regan was very good in close games, that is why Wesleyan pulled out a number of their close games, 2) IMO Morgan was not as good as a defender as Regan, and 3) Regan took less shots than Morgan last year. Morgan scored points in the second half of the Trinity game, but when it mattered in the second half, he was shut down by the backup pg and backup center/forward when the game was determined and Trinity pulled away. Against Tufts, Wesleyan (twice) and the loss in the NCAA, he didn't play/score great in the second half of those games. Yes, he scored a bunch of points against Tufts in the 2nd half, but the game was over at halftime.
With Cuevas, he has played outstanding in the 2nd half of their losses, I did not watch last night, so I can't say about that game. But without him they get blown out in those other games. This to me give credence for him to be in strong contention this year. And you are correct, everyone on your POY list has more talent around them then Cuevas and as Morgan had last year.
But the coaches still voted Singh on the 2nd team last year and he didn't deserve that at all. He shot 35% from the field, 25% 3pt in NESCAC and as you stated Morgan got all the attention, so why wasn't he better. So, imo the coaches got that wrong as well. No blame to Morgan on that, just that some coaches voted Singh to the 2nd team based on previous year's awards and not his actual play last year.
There are a number of different points here, all valid, just going to depend on opinions. If Vetter took the same number of shots as Cuevas, they would have very similar stats based on their shooting percentages this year. Vetter has actually taken 50 shots less than Okorougo so far this year and they both play about 10 minutes less per game than Cuevas. Vetter has taken 70 less shot than Cuevas. Do you heavily favor PPG in determining POY, which will hurt Vetter this year and Regan last year. Should it hurt Vetter's chances because his team blows out opponents and therefore doesn't play as much or take as many shots? Vetter is averaging less shots than he did as a freshman.
Will be interesting if Trinity does run the table during the regular season, and someone other than Vetter, Okorougo or Lazarre wins the POY. I do think Vetter and Okorougo, are hurt being on the same team as coaches will think 1 or 2 of the others should win and if they split votes, someone like Cuevas could win. My guess is that coaches look too much at PPG instead of the total package, which is why I thought Regan should have won last year.
Can the coaches vote for their own players? I think this was answered, but not sure. If they can't I think that hurts players as well. I also don't think coaches spend that much time on this and rely on what they saw when they played against these players. In the end might be better to be done by independent voters.
The change 2 years ago to go with 7 and 7 on 1st and 2nd teams was bad as well, go with 2 teams of 5 each or go with 3 teams of 5. It is like giving everyone a trophy, it waters down the awards.

[rdanie03]

To me, Gyimesi should be the POTY. Averaging 16.9 PPG and 9.6 boards with a real chance to finish the season averaging a double-double. If Tufts can run the table(which I think is a real possibility), he would be the favorite.

[D3BBALL]

To me, Gyimesi should be the POTY. Averaging 16.9 PPG and 9.6 boards with a real chance to finish the season averaging a double-double. If Tufts can run the table(which I think is a real possibility), he would be the favorite.

He certainly has as good as shot as anyone right now. Might come down to the Trinity game for him. His last 5 games against Trinity, 18/43 FG 3/8 3-pt, 10 Rebounds/gm, 1.6 assists/gm, 1.2/gm turnovers. And that is with 1 game shooting 8/13, take that away, 33% over 4 games.
He is a career 58% shooter, 42% over 5 games, that is a pretty significant difference.

I think he or Cuevas is going to have to take it away from Okorougo or Vetter and Tufts is going to have to beat Trinity to do so or him have an outstanding game in a loss.

[D3BBALL]

After 1st week of Conference play. The below Strength of Schedule is from Massey and out of 409 teams.
Based on NPI, 4 teams make NCAA Trinity, Tufts, Colby and Bates (Bates is a little shocking that they didn't move down more)

1) Trinity 14-0 (2-0) (NPI rated 1 overall A pool)- No Change- Strength of Schedule 200 was 257. 2 Solid wins.

2) Tufts 13-2 (2-0), (NPI #3 C pool)- No Change – Strength of Schedule 92 was 137 – 13 in a row, playing well with a couple of fairly easy NESCAC wins. Lineup changes seem to be working.

3) Wesleyan 12-4 (2-0) (NPI #23 C pool)- Up 1 - Strength of Schedule 93 was 127 - Strong weekend on the road.

4) Amherst 11-3 (1-0) (NPI #39 C pool)– Up 5 – Strength of Schedule 280 was 303 - Big win at home against Bates, down at half and blew them out. Big weekend at Trinity, at Wesleyan.

5) Colby 10-2 (1-1) (NPI #16 C pool)– No Change – Strength of Schedule 178 was 242 - Beat Bowdoin yesterday, non-conference. Looks like Poulton's shooting might be coming around. Pretty good 1-2 punch with Civello, then add Hinman as 3rd scorer, looking good for them.

6) Bates 11-3 (0-2) (NPI #19 C pool)- Down 3 - Strength of Schedule 163 was 218. While a loss at Amherst not necessarily bad, getting blown out was. Then losing to Hamilton, really bad, could be a killer for NCAA purposes. Weekend at home against Bowdoin on the road vs Colby might decide their fate.

7) Bowdoin 10-5 (1-1) (NPI #37 C pool) – Up 1 - Strength of Schedule 122 was 218. Cuevas playing great, just not enough other weapons. Non-conference loss to Colby last night doesn't help. Need to beat Bates.

8) Williams 10-4 (0-2) (NPI #56 C pool)– Down 1 – Strength of Schedule 177 was 290. Bad first half against Wesleyan, played Trintiy tough for about 25 minutes, then wheels fell off. At Tufts and Conn, need a 1-1 weekend.

9) Conn 11-4 (0-2) – (NPI #48 C pool) Down 3 – Strength of Schedule 215 was 219 – 2 close games on the road, both losses. I would say welcome to the NESCAC for their transfers, not quite the same as out of conference D3 teams.

10) Middlebury 6-7 (0-2) 6-4 – (NPI #136 C pool) No change – Strength of Schedule 70 was 188. They play hard need that freshman healthy.

11) Hamilton 4-10 (1-0), (NPI #263 C pool) No Change - Strength of Schedule 149 was 195 – Easily the upset of the weekend against Bates. 

All below should really be determined by conference play and not out of conference games unless they are against NESCAC teams. But based on season so far:

POY - Not in any order, Vetter, Gyimesi, Okorougo, Lazarre and Cuevas all in the running.

First team locks - Gyimesi, Vetter, Okorougo, Lazarre, Cuevas.

Second team still wide open but Pouye, Civello are locks.