MBB: NESCAC

[Bucket]

Agree that the Trinity senior class of Vetter, Okorougo, Lazarre, McDonald and Jordan is in contention for best NESCAC class of all time and if they win another national title I think I'd give them GOAT status. It's hard to pick one guy from that group as definitively the best - if forced to I go with Okorougo, but really it's how they play as a group that makes them truly special. 

Other contenders for greatest NESCAC class of all time:

1998 Williams: Mike Nogelo, Grant Farmer, Brendan McGuire (injury to Farmer limiting his impact as an upperclassman knocks them out, but that core did get to two Final Fours and Nogelo has the best individual resume)
2004 Williams: Ben Coffin, Mike Crotty, Chuck Abba - and Blake Morgan was supposed to be up there with them before a severe injury
2008 Amherst: Andrew Olson, Fletcher Walters, Matt Goldsmith, Kevin Hopkins, Brandon Jones, Adolphe Coulibaly
2010 Williams: Blake Schultz, Joe Geoghegan, Alex Rubin, Ethan Timmins-Schiffman, Charlie Cates, Will Hardy (do you get extra points for being the best hoops coach NESCAC has ever produced?). 
2013 Amherst: Willy Workman, Allen Williamson, Peter Kaasila (yeah Toomey was the best guy on that squad but still an insanely good trio by the time they graduated)
HM to 2019 Williams: Bobby Casey, James Heskett, Kyle Scadlock, Michael Kempton, Marcos Soto, Jake Porath (not really a contender but the biggest what if - if Scadlock hadn't gotten injured I think they'd be right up there, but as is, just didn't win enough). 

My current rankings: 2008 Amherst, 2026 Trinity, 2004 Williams.  I think the Trinity group has to win another title to eclipse that crazy 2008 Amherst class.  Olson is better than any current Trinity player, Trinity's next two are clearly better than Amherst's next two, but Amherst had a bigger class with more quality depth and a similar level of overall success - it's close. 

Midd's Jake Wolfin, Nolan Thompson, and Peter Lynch wasn't shabby, either.

[D3BBALL]

I did so well last week (5-5), here are my predictions for this week.

Friday
Hamilton 59 at Weslyean 74
Bowdoin 68 at Bates 72
Amherst 55 at Trinity 80
Williams 73 at Tufts 79
Middlebury 68 at Conn 65

Saturday
Williams 71 at Conn 69
Amherst 61 at Wesleyan 68
Middlebury 61 at Tufts 75
Hamilton 49 at Trinity 83

Sunday
Bates 73 at Colby 76

[Stickthe3]

Weekend predictions. 6-4 last week

Friday 1/17
Hamilton 62 at Wesleyan 79
Bowdoin 68 at Bates 74
Amherst 58 at Trinity 76
Williams 77 at Tufts 85
Middlebury 64 at Conn 74

Saturday 1/18
Williams 74 at Conn 67
Amherst 71 at Wesleyan 77
Middlebury 62 at Tufts 84
Hamilton 57 at Trinity 83

Sunday 1/19
Bates 72 at Colby 78

[midrangepullup]

I was 6-4 week 1, could have been better:

Friday:
Wesleyan 79 Hamilton 66
Bates 70 Bowdoin 64
Trinity 62 Amherst 49
Tufts 73 Williams 55
Conn 74 Midd 65
Saturday:
Conn 68 Williams 66
Tufts 77 Midd 68
Trnity 80 Hamilton 58
Sunday:
Colby 72 Bates 68

[jumbomumbo]

Those last year know Mumbo loves predictions. It saddens me that I didn't do them last week. I am less active these days, but the jumbo love is still there. I will stick to strictly tufts predictions going forward.

Record: 2-0 (yeah I didn't post here but I certainly didn't have us losing to Bowdoin or Colby.

Alumni weekend so we're all watching tonight and tomorrow.

Tufts 73 Williams 64. I hope this is a good game because tomorrow is goin to be Tufts 82 Middlebury 55. Normally would have us beating Middlebury by more but I want to see a good game tonight.

[D3BBALL]

Amherst played a very good first half. Trinity might be worse half of their season. Trinity was down 9 at one point now up 3 at half.

[jumbomumbo]

Williams is just a terrible basketball team. What an embarrassment, 36 points. At all times tonight, tufts had 5 better athletes on the court. Simple as that. Think #20 had a put back dunk that didn't count at the end of the game, maybe coach should play him more.

[ItsATuftSituation]

I don't post a lot on here because...well, I just don't have the passion to do so. But tonight, I was at the Tufts-Williams game and oh boy.

I've been around a long time, this has to be the most uninspired Williams team I've ever seen. Not having Lee obviously hurts them, but they're just not really all that good. Not that it's a surprise to people that have seen them play this season, but I'm not entirely sure they have a player in their lineup that starts for any of the top 4-5 teams in the league.

Now, Tufts did make it super hard for them to do anything...but 2-21 shooting from three? That's not defense, especially in the first half when they were getting open looks. I don't know, just a bad game, but 36 points? Yikes.

On the Tufts' side, good to see them be fine with Gyimesi in foul trouble. Defensive intensity was great and their wing depth defensively is impressive with Reilly, Medley, Watt, Wooten and Nieves all making it tough for guards.

[nescac1]

Definitely a low point for Williams hoops right now.  Others have covered it.  The D is still solid but the scoring is abysmal.  Too many guys just can't shoot the ball, especially off the bounce, to succeed.

But I also want to note that it's a low point for sports, particularly team sports, at Williams, period. Long rant coming. 

The Ephs still do very well in individual sports but even there, Williams hasn't won a single national title in many years when they used to win them routinely.  And team sports overall are in the aggregate mired towards the bottom half of the league and have been for most of this decade.  I don't ever see a return to the dominant 1990s, too many formerly moribund NESCAC schools care too much and Williams cares too little about athletics, but it also doesn't need to be like this; just a slow and steady path downward over a 30 year period for a college that once was the preeminent NESCAC sports powerhouse and has an amazing athletics tradition. 

The problems as I see them, all of which boil down to a lack of institutional commitment to athletics:

(1) the indoor athletic facilities are a joke, 40 years old with few meaningful upgrades over that time period.  Yeah, they finally opened a new temporary field house across campus, but only after the prior facility literally collapsed.  You see these incredible facilities at schools with far fewer resources like Colby and Midd and it's just so insane that Williams has allowed it to get to this point with a four billion dollar endowment (which mostly seems to be spent on infinite Deans and VPs and the one area they do spend on in sports, administrators).  The basketball/swimming/hockey/weight room/locker room etc. facilities are like 20 years out of date and barely patched together. A major building project seems to finally be on the horizon but it needs to be urgently prioritized and done at a Colby sort of level once shovel ready, no cutting corners.  The new and costly art history museum will be really great, I'll be glad to patronize it, but building a 200 million dollar museum, which most students will barely use, ahead of facilities that the majority of campus uses on a daily basis was insane.  That alone will add energy to athletics and help with recruiting, attracting crowds etc. 

(2) The school obviously just doesn't care about admitting enough high-level athletes that will enable teams to compete.  There are of course elite players throughout campus teams but most teams always just seem a few key players short of competing with the top NESCAC teams.  Unlike some NESCAC schools, there are zero transfer athletes, seemingly ever (taking even a few per year would help but that seems like a non-starter), and no grad programs, so you've got four years with the recruits you admit and that's it.  And given that, you just need more of them because now a key injury or a player who quits is brutal.  Just letting in a handful more major athletic recruits per year at the margins - which is very doable with entering classes slowly creeping up in size and with the fifth-biggest student population in the conference - would make a huge difference.

(3) The school seems to cheap out on athletics in a zillion other ways.  Williams perpetually seems to have more injured guys than anyone in hoops and football, maybe it's bad luck but could it be issues with training programs and facilities? It's to the point where it's hard to write off as simply coincidence.  And I imagine there is a similar issue with investing in coaching, travel, etc.  I don't think there is much NIL stuff going on at NESCAC but if there is, I'm sure Williams is behind there, too. 

Even looking at Sports Info, Williams used to post highlights in many sports in game recaps, but not any more, I can't imagine that saved a meaningful amount for the school, such low-hanging fruit.  Lots of schools have far more robust and energetic social media presences or do fun athletic-focused events like midnight madness.  And the athletics previews are utterly worthless when once upon a time they actually provided, you know, information about the players on the team.  I'm not sure why they even bother.  Even little things like in football, they don't even get the lineups right and list players as starters who are out for the season and never fix positions, heights and weights.  It all just conveys a sense of, we don't really take this stuff seriously, it's merely an enrichment activity. 

There are a lot of alumni (including plenty with $$$$) who had a lot of athletic success and I hope they start to exert a bit of pressure on the trustees to care more or even just a little.  It's great that Williams is at the top of college rankings every year and has poured a zillion dollars into just about the best library, science facilities and arts facilities of any LAC.  But why does athletics have to be entirely neglected when Williams is top-of-class in other areas?  Williams is very isolated and having a fun and occasionally winning environment for campus teams brings a lot of energy to the school and the Williamstown community, where hoops and football games in particular used to be big events that generated a ton of school and community spirit.  Especially during the long cold winter - you're not gonna pack the art history museum with 1600 fans in January.  When the teams are successful it's something for an entire small town to rally around.  But when you lose nearly every big game to your biggest rivals many of whom are competing for national titles year after year, it surely gets a bit dispiriting. 

[Yipper]

I suspect that athletic facilities have less impact on team performance than admissions policies and the ability of coaches to connect with recruits. That said, I believe Williams has determined that the minimum cost of upgrading athletic facilities--the minimum--is $500 million, likely a centerpiece of the school's next capital campaign. It's also worth noting that the administrative bloat throughout elite academia sucks off $ that could go to faculty and aides who actually teach students.

[jmh21]

Recent Williams athlete grad here—the lack of institutional support in comparison to other NESCACs is staggering. It seemed like every place we traveled (even Hamilton!) had an indoor turf facility for winter practice, meanwhile outdoor sports teams at Williams were stuck in a tiny gym during the winter the last two years

[D3BBALL]

I can't talk about other sports at Williams or the facilities or the administration issues.
Maybe Jumbo makes a very good point, maybe it's a talent issue at Williams.
Last year they had a big win early against Trinity in conference play and then they were bad for the rest of the season. Trinity was terrible shooting the ball that game, but give Williams credit. They won the game on the road.
I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.
You can't start NESCAC play scoring 15 points in the first half at home. Then yesterday scoring 16 points in the second half against the team that had their best player in foul trouble.
I don't think anyone thought they would win any of the games that they played. Two of the games, heavy underdogs against Trinity and Tufts.
Hanson, Yates and Rien have been pretty bad so far in three conference games.
You can't continue to use injuries as an excuse.
If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

[jumbomumbo]

I can't talk about other sports at Williams or the facilities or the administration issues.
Maybe Jumbo makes a very good point, maybe it's a talent issue at Williams.
Last year they had a big win early against Trinity in conference play and then they were bad for the rest of the season. Trinity was terrible shooting the ball that game, but give Williams credit. They won the game on the road.
I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.
You can't start NESCAC play scoring 15 points in the first half at home. Then yesterday scoring 16 points in the second half against the team that had their best player in foul trouble.
I don't think anyone thought they would win any of the games that they played. Two of the games, heavy underdogs against Trinity and Tufts.
Hanson, Yates and Rien have been pretty bad so far in three conference games.
You can't continue to use injuries as an excuse.
If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

There's no focal point and there's no core on offense. I had no idea wtf they were doing all game

[SpringSt7]

I suspect that athletic facilities have less impact on team performance than admissions policies and the ability of coaches to connect with recruits. That said, I believe Williams has determined that the minimum cost of upgrading athletic facilities--the minimum--is $500 million, likely a centerpiece of the school's next capital campaign. It's also worth noting that the administrative bloat throughout elite academia sucks off $ that could go to faculty and aides who actually teach students.

The athletic facilities make a huge difference. As it currently stands there is a small weight room next to the gym that is not even exclusive for athletes - not that it HAS to be, per se, but if the football team was to go in for a team lift (kind of important in football) there is absolutely zero guarantee that they would be able to do all of the things that they needed to do in the weight room in the required amount of time, etc.

Furthermore, and this has always been an issue so it isn't a new complaint, but the Chandler weight room is not an easy place to get to for any of the teams outside of basketball, hockey, and probably swimming. It is on the other side of campus from soccer and baseball, and on the other end of Spring st from football, field hockey, and lacrosse. So if we are looking at it from a training and health standpoint, it is fairly common for teams to do lifts before or after practice even during the season - light stretching, mobility, band work, or lifting less weight for more reps in order to stay strong which in turn leads to injury prevention. So if the soccer team wanted to do a lift before or after practice that would require a car ride.

Additionally, and my gut tells me this isn't as big of a deal and not SOP at all other NESCAC schools, but most of the teams share locker rooms and do not have places to store their belongings year round. So another small hurdle but a hurdle nonetheless in regards to year round development.

As for the basketball product on the floor I think the vitriol on here has been a little ridiculous (personal vendettas aside). They are simply not that good. They missed on a few guys at times when they really couldn't afford to miss and their most important player got hurt and that was that. Even with Lee on the floor they would probably be a guy short from being anything more than a plucky first weekend tournament team, if everything went well.

They've also played at least 3 tournament teams to open up league play, potentially 4. Do I think they are gonna go 6-4 in league play and make the NESCAC championship game? No I don't. I also expect them to score more than 38 points going forward as well, I don't think that is an unfair criticism. But for the people who are trying to turn it into some sort of Marlon Sears and Amherst like disaster, you are going to have to wait a lot longer before declaring a victory.

[SpringSt7]

I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.


If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

1. Hansen has been forced to play center because they have no other frontcourt options. If they had more competent and experienced center play, he would be playing the 4 and be producing the way he could've been.

2. They did not have a month to figure it out after the Lee injury. In that time O missed games due to injury, Cooley missed games due to injury, Belcher missed games due to injury, and Sommers missed games due to injury. The backcourt has had almost no time to gel, the frontcourt rotation has never had a chance to settle. 10 different players have started games.

3. Who is overrating the talent? If anything they are overachieving on an individual level. Rein went from 8th on the team in minutes per game as a freshman to all league guy. They have a legitimate walk on running the offense - it is a great story that he is even on the court at all. They are getting contributions from guys in Shepherd, Devine, etc, that did not see the floor at all last year. I would struggle to understand the combination of "the talent is overrated" and also "the coaching and offseason development is an issue".

Sorry for the double post and rant, I hadn't seen that post before my first one and there is a lot in there