MBB: NESCAC

[midrangepullup]

Yesterday, I was noticing how much the ball sticks with Williams. Don't think they're making decisions quick enough on offense.

Defensively the attention to detail just wasn't quite there. Can't let Conn's two best shooters get 20 threes up.

[toad22]

To add a bit to Nescac1s rant, as an alum and resident of Williamtown. I am sure that there is no strong institutional support for sports. The administration acquiesces to the existence of sports, but they don't care much if we win or lose. Up until about 10-15 years ago, a least some in the administration wanted a strong sports program. I used to view the college's "brand" as "great academics, great sports". We never thought it was good enough to be "among the best" or just competitive. Our goal in everything was to be the best, not just good. That has slipped a lot. It is concerning.

Regarding basketball, it is clear that the Ephs are struggling right now. In particular, our offensive play has been weak. That has impacted the fluidity of our offense, and has made it more difficult to generate as many quality shots, especially for the big guys. I think that has produced some frustration and rushed, low-quality shots. The season isn't over, there are plenty of opportunities to turn things around. We have a lots of players, especially underclassmen who have talent. I expect you haven't heard the last of Williams this year.

[JEFFFAN]

To add a bit to Nescac1s rant, as an alum and resident of Williamtown. I am sure that there is no strong institutional support for sports. The administration acquiesces to the existence of sports, but they don't care much if we win or lose. Up until about 10-15 years ago, a least some in the administration wanted a strong sports program. I used to view the college's "brand" as "great academics, great sports". We never thought it was good enough to be "among the best" or just competitive. Our goal in everything was to be the best, not just good. That has slipped a lot. It is concerning.

Regarding basketball, it is clear that the Ephs are struggling right now. In particular, our offensive play has been weak. That has impacted the fluidity of our offense, and has made it more difficult to generate as many quality shots, especially for the big guys. I think that has produced some frustration and rushed, low-quality shots. The season isn't over, there are plenty of opportunities to turn things around. We have a lots of players, especially underclassmen who have talent. I expect you haven't heard the last of Williams this year.

Toad and NESCAC1 - I am curious what you think has changed?  Williams used to crush that D3 points cup and now is an afterthought.   Something had to alter this because lack of inertia does not seem to be sufficient cause.

At Amherst, we were pretty happy with things until Biddy Martin decided to steer the boat from an aggressive left movement to insane left movement.  Putting politics aside, she was a national leader in the DEI movement and all that went along with it. She mandated that head coach jobs only be filled my minorities, qualifications aside.   Admissions started becoming less favorable especially for football.   (Soccer kept its numbers because most of their players are from abroad!)  Point being that Amherst grads can point to why several sports took a serious downturn.

So just curious what your views are on why the preeminent athletic program in the NESCAC - Williams College - took the nosedive.

[nescac1]

Jefffan, ironically losing Tom Parker to Amherst (which coincided with the start of Amherst's golden age of athletics before things rapidly changed in recent years) I believe was when things started to change for Williams. Beyond that, I really don't know, although it's clear we haven't had a President or Trustees who really seem particularly interested in athletics for quite some time.  I think there were some segments at Williams (particularly faculty some of whom had some nasty public commentary about athletes) who were never terribly psyched about Williams former reputation as a jock school and I'm assuming those factions became more influential over time. 

I'd also note that competition got a lot tougher.  Midd and Trinity always had powerhouse teams but Tufts and Wesleyan just never seemed to care about sports at all until that changed radically over the past 10-15 years.  They were always sleeping giants as bigger more urban proximate schools with grad programs. And Colby is clearly trying to join that group, thus far without the same sort of results, but they will get there I suspect. So not only did the institutional emphasis gradually seem to change at Williams - and later Amherst, more dramatically and suddenly, but it was the same time that the competition got much tougher.  Look at hoops - as many non W/A teams made final fours in the past two seasons as the 30 prior years. 

[D3BBALL]

Big win for Bates yesterday against Colby.

[D3BBALL]

I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.


If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

1. Hansen has been forced to play center because they have no other frontcourt options. If they had more competent and experienced center play, he would be playing the 4 and be producing the way he could've been.

2. They did not have a month to figure it out after the Lee injury. In that time O missed games due to injury, Cooley missed games due to injury, Belcher missed games due to injury, and Sommers missed games due to injury. The backcourt has had almost no time to gel, the frontcourt rotation has never had a chance to settle. 10 different players have started games.

3. Who is overrating the talent? If anything they are overachieving on an individual level. Rein went from 8th on the team in minutes per game as a freshman to all league guy. They have a legitimate walk on running the offense - it is a great story that he is even on the court at all. They are getting contributions from guys in Shepherd, Devine, etc, that did not see the floor at all last year. I would struggle to understand the combination of "the talent is overrated" and also "the coaching and offseason development is an issue".

Sorry for the double post and rant, I hadn't seen that post before my first one and there is a lot in there

A number of us have thought Williams was going to be one of the better teams in the league the last 2 years. Rein during non conference play looked great this year. So far after 3 games he is not an all league player, again imo. First 3 games he and the entire starting front line was not good offensively and they have not been good defensively. This was supposed to be a strength. Against Trinity it was 2 freshman that kept them in the game. Against Conn stats wise didn't look much better for the 3. And i did point out they played against 3 teams with good front courts.
Bates beat Colby yesterday at Colby without Pouye. Thats a pretty big loss and they still won. Every team has injuries with the exception of trinity the last few years. Bates lost their best player, had less than 2 days and won.
Some of us imo have over rated the talent and that includes me. As Jumbo stated they lack athleticism. Thats his opinion and mine after watching them. I do think they lack toughness and did last year a well.  All the other thoughts about coaching, off season commitment etc., were questions to consider, not fact. I think they have a very good coach who has proven track record. But that and the other points were just to add to the facility issues, admin/board issues etc and how much if any of these have caused the recent decline in hoops or other sports. I have heard that some alumni at Williams do not like the school admin and board and have either stopped giving donations or told if things don't change they will no longer give.
4 games doesn't make a conference season. Let's see where they end up.

[lumbercat]

Pouye rolled an ankle in the second half against Bowdoin. He finished the game but noticeably limping after the game. It didn't look real bad but as we know the real test is how it is when you get up the next morning. Hopefully it's minor, Bates will have a tough road ahead if he's going to be out for an extended time.

[D3BBALL]

Pouye rolled an ankle in the second half against Bowdoin. He finished the game but noticeably limping after the game. It didn't look real bad but as we know the real test is how it is when you get up the next morning. Hopefully it's minor, Bates will have a tough road ahead if he's going to be out for an extended time.

Hope he heals quickly, but great win for them. Looks like Psyhogeos and O'Leary have been shooting well lately. Along with Coyne shooting,  that should really help out Pouye and maybe not get him doubled quite as much.

[Middfan]

There hasn't been much reason to watch the Panthers if you are just following the league leaders.  But as a devoted fan, I've appreciated their effort and determination, just not their scoring ability.  That having been said, I need some board expertise here.  With about 6 minutes remaining in the Tufts game (when it was within a 5 point game) Dominic Ducree drives to the hoop and misses a contested layup.  Mark Newell rises up for the rebound and a slam.  Nice play, except that the ball catches in the bottom of the net and rebounds back up through the hoop. My reading of the rule says that the ball must pass 100% through the plane of the rim, which it clearly does.  After a prolonged video review the officials ruled no basket.  What am I missing??  Here's the play:  https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM3MUUVNkAma2BzB_QOKqlQxZqRED4iEwWPSI7F

[D3BBALL]

There hasn't been much reason to watch the Panthers if you are just following the league leaders.  But as a devoted fan, I've appreciated their effort and determination, just not their scoring ability.  That having been said, I need some board expertise here.  With about 6 minutes remaining in the Tufts game (when it was within a 5 point game) Dominic Ducree drives to the hoop and misses a contested layup.  Mark Newell rises up for the rebound and a slam.  Nice play, except that the ball catches in the bottom of the net and rebounds back up through the hoop. My reading of the rule says that the ball must pass 100% through the plane of the rim, which it clearly does.  After a prolonged video review the officials ruled no basket.  What am I missing??  Here's the play:  https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM3MUUVNkAma2BzB_QOKqlQxZqRED4iEwWPSI7F

I could be wrong, but I thought the rule was it has to go thru the net as well, so I think their ruling was correct. Probably one of the few the officials made correctly, lol. Man is the officiating getting worse or what. Every game seems their officials who should in no way be on the court.

[D3BBALL]

There hasn't been much reason to watch the Panthers if you are just following the league leaders.  But as a devoted fan, I've appreciated their effort and determination, just not their scoring ability.  That having been said, I need some board expertise here.  With about 6 minutes remaining in the Tufts game (when it was within a 5 point game) Dominic Ducree drives to the hoop and misses a contested layup.  Mark Newell rises up for the rebound and a slam.  Nice play, except that the ball catches in the bottom of the net and rebounds back up through the hoop. My reading of the rule says that the ball must pass 100% through the plane of the rim, which it clearly does.  After a prolonged video review the officials ruled no basket.  What am I missing??  Here's the play:  https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM3MUUVNkAma2BzB_QOKqlQxZqRED4iEwWPSI7F

And I agree the panthers are playing hard with a new coach, new system and without a lot of scoring options. But they gave Tufts a game on the road, got it down to 15 in the second half against Trinity.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

There hasn't been much reason to watch the Panthers if you are just following the league leaders.  But as a devoted fan, I've appreciated their effort and determination, just not their scoring ability.  That having been said, I need some board expertise here.  With about 6 minutes remaining in the Tufts game (when it was within a 5 point game) Dominic Ducree drives to the hoop and misses a contested layup.  Mark Newell rises up for the rebound and a slam.  Nice play, except that the ball catches in the bottom of the net and rebounds back up through the hoop. My reading of the rule says that the ball must pass 100% through the plane of the rim, which it clearly does.  After a prolonged video review the officials ruled no basket.  What am I missing??  Here's the play:  https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM3MUUVNkAma2BzB_QOKqlQxZqRED4iEwWPSI7F

I could be wrong, but I thought the rule was it has to go thru the net as well, so I think their ruling was correct. Probably one of the few the officials made correctly, lol. Man is the officiating getting worse or what. Every game seems their officials who should in now way be on the court.

The NBA helpfully defines a FG as passing through the net.  The NCAA uses the term "basket" which can be a little confusing - but they define it as the rim and the net.

[SpringSt7]

I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.


If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

1. Hansen has been forced to play center because they have no other frontcourt options. If they had more competent and experienced center play, he would be playing the 4 and be producing the way he could've been.

2. They did not have a month to figure it out after the Lee injury. In that time O missed games due to injury, Cooley missed games due to injury, Belcher missed games due to injury, and Sommers missed games due to injury. The backcourt has had almost no time to gel, the frontcourt rotation has never had a chance to settle. 10 different players have started games.

3. Who is overrating the talent? If anything they are overachieving on an individual level. Rein went from 8th on the team in minutes per game as a freshman to all league guy. They have a legitimate walk on running the offense - it is a great story that he is even on the court at all. They are getting contributions from guys in Shepherd, Devine, etc, that did not see the floor at all last year. I would struggle to understand the combination of "the talent is overrated" and also "the coaching and offseason development is an issue".

Sorry for the double post and rant, I hadn't seen that post before my first one and there is a lot in there

A number of us have thought Williams was going to be one of the better teams in the league the last 2 years. Rein during non conference play looked great this year. So far after 3 games he is not an all league player, again imo. First 3 games he and the entire starting front line was not good offensively and they have not been good defensively. This was supposed to be a strength.

Opinions are opinions and that is all well and good but I don't know where you got the idea that the front line was supposed to be a strength. What are you defining as front line? They don't have a NESCAC starting caliber center on the roster and we all knew that going into the season.

[ephoops]

Jefffan, ironically losing Tom Parker to Amherst (which coincided with the start of Amherst's golden age of athletics before things rapidly changed in recent years) I believe was when things started to change for Williams. Beyond that, I really don't know, although it's clear we haven't had a President or Trustees who really seem particularly interested in athletics for quite some time.  I think there were some segments at Williams (particularly faculty some of whom had some nasty public commentary about athletes) who were never terribly psyched about Williams former reputation as a jock school and I'm assuming those factions became more influential over time. 

I'd also note that competition got a lot tougher.  Midd and Trinity always had powerhouse teams but Tufts and Wesleyan just never seemed to care about sports at all until that changed radically over the past 10-15 years.  They were always sleeping giants as bigger more urban proximate schools with grad programs. And Colby is clearly trying to join that group, thus far without the same sort of results, but they will get there I suspect. So not only did the institutional emphasis gradually seem to change at Williams - and later Amherst, more dramatically and suddenly, but it was the same time that the competition got much tougher.  Look at hoops - as many non W/A teams made final fours in the past two seasons as the 30 prior years. 

The recent golden age of Williams Athletics ended when (1) in 2009 Morty Schapiro, the Williams President, left to take the job as President of Northwestern, and (2) in 2010 Harry Sheehy, the Williams AD, left Williams to take the AD job at Dartmouth. Williams won the the Directors Cup every year that Sheehy was AD and Schapiro was President. Schapiro was a big supporter of Athletics at Williams and Sheehy was a brilliant leader of the Athletics Department.   

Adam Falk was a disaster as President of Williams when he followed Schapiro.  Maud Mandel (current President) is apathetic (many will say pathetic) when when it comes to sports at Williams.  Melendy took over as AD for Sheehy and she has presided over the decline of Williams' sports.

The Trustees are in the midst of preparing a significant plan for a major and much needed upgrade of the sports facilities at Williams.  Realistically, it's at least five years (likely more) before anything significant is completed to upgrade the sports facilities.  Williams will continue to fall further behind other NESCAC schools. 

[D3boarder]

While it may be true that Williams facilities lag behind that of their peers, significantly in some cases, lets not pretend that this has hindered their ability to recruit in any major way (speaking only for basketball). Every year they get highly rated recruits, including many that most other NESCACs would have no chance at recruiting. Even this season there has been repeated talk on these boards about all the young talent on the roster. I think the biggest reason is simply the improvement of the rest of the league in recent years. Trinity and Wesleyan have had the best years in their history, Tufts has turned into a perennially ranked team, even Conn has become consistently competitive. It is no longer a three team league.