MBB: NESCAC

[D3BBALL]

I remember watching Hansen as a freshman and saying that this kid could be a dominant player or a player of the year in the league. Last year, I think I even had him as a candidate for player of the year, preseason. But when you look back, I'm not sure he's that much better than when he was as a freshman.
I know the Lee injury hurts. But they've had a month to figure out how to handle that before conference play even started.


If that front court is supposed to be so good, what is hurting them. Now they have gone against three teams that are very good defensive teams, especially at the forward position. But those three are like shooting 30% in the first three games. That just doesn't cut it.
In the end, have we overvalued the talent on that team. I don't think there's a Smith and/or Karren's on that team right now. Have to withhold judgment on the freshman. But there's not a player on that team that I would have in the top 14 in the league right now the way they have played.
I think jumbo is right, they have a lot of good players, but maybe there's not a dominant player on that team.
So is it a talent issue , is it the coaching, is it to off-season commitment issue. I do think they lack toughness and if you don't have that in the NESCAC hard to compete against the top teams.

1. Hansen has been forced to play center because they have no other frontcourt options. If they had more competent and experienced center play, he would be playing the 4 and be producing the way he could've been.

2. They did not have a month to figure it out after the Lee injury. In that time O missed games due to injury, Cooley missed games due to injury, Belcher missed games due to injury, and Sommers missed games due to injury. The backcourt has had almost no time to gel, the frontcourt rotation has never had a chance to settle. 10 different players have started games.

3. Who is overrating the talent? If anything they are overachieving on an individual level. Rein went from 8th on the team in minutes per game as a freshman to all league guy. They have a legitimate walk on running the offense - it is a great story that he is even on the court at all. They are getting contributions from guys in Shepherd, Devine, etc, that did not see the floor at all last year. I would struggle to understand the combination of "the talent is overrated" and also "the coaching and offseason development is an issue".

Sorry for the double post and rant, I hadn't seen that post before my first one and there is a lot in there

A number of us have thought Williams was going to be one of the better teams in the league the last 2 years. Rein during non conference play looked great this year. So far after 3 games he is not an all league player, again imo. First 3 games he and the entire starting front line was not good offensively and they have not been good defensively. This was supposed to be a strength.

Opinions are opinions and that is all well and good but I don't know where you got the idea that the front line was supposed to be a strength. What are you defining as front line? They don't have a NESCAC starting caliber center on the roster and we all knew that going into the season.

Where would you say their strength is? I don't see it as their back court.

After Lee, and it stinks that he is out for the year, they don't shoot it that well on a consistent basis and not sure their defense is a strength. Shouldn't Hansen, Yates, and Rein should be their strength?  How much of a strength is now up for debate.

Hansen has been talked about being potential all league last year and this year. Yates was probably up there for FOY after Cuevas and Rein started off so well this year in out of conference play. Some, including myself, had him up there for first team, but for me it has to be really based on Conference play.

NESCAC1 said in preseason or when the season began, there are not a lot of true/big centers in the NESCAC. You have Bernstein, who is just a low post player, but he is not dominating down low. You have Davis at Trinity, who is strictly a low post player, but I would bet not even 6'5" and not a consistent offensive threat as Trinity doesn't really run any plays for him or that position. A terrific low post defender and built like a wall. You have Civello, who is probably the best true center in the league overall. Does it down low, outside and can rebound, but not as athletic as some of the others and needs to defend better. You have Hauser at 6'8" good defensively, not a consistent threat down low. You have Pouye who is not a traditional center but super athletic, can shoot and can handle the ball as well as anyone at that position. Neither Hamilton or Amherst have a center, they both play forwards at the position. Conn has Watson that plays center, again more of a forward, but rebounds quite well. Middlebury has started a number of players at the position but mostly Newell and Wetherington, neither taller than 6'6 and neither a consistent threat down low, but both would be considered traditional centers. Bowdoin has Bessire at 6'8" plays as a traditional center, but not a consistent threat.
Hansen is 6'8" all be it with a smaller frame, but not really that much different that most of the others. As NESCAC1 pointed out shouldn't Hansen have an advantage from the outside and driving to the hoop, and maybe even pick and roll mismatches as well. But if you want to say that Hansen is out of position and can't compete against all these players, I won't disagree, certainly not after the first 4 games. A lot of players have to play out of position.
I would say Williams does have a true center on their roster in Sommers, as he is as close as the come in the league. Now he is a freshman, but for a freshman he has played pretty well in conference play, not great, but he was the best player for Williams against Trinity. Maybe they should start him, keep Rein at the 4, Hansen at the 3 and Yates at the 2.
In the end, I am just saying that at least I did, and I think overs did as well, overrate the team and the talent on the team, certainly as it is right now and how they played last year. Maybe they put it together and have a nice run in the last 6 conference games and the tournament, but they still have a ton on tough games left. It is surprising to me, but I think they are right now bottom 3 in the league.

[NESCACBBALLFAN]

Re: Middlebury. The Panthers have been garnering less and less attention on the boards in recent weeks (and years). Perhaps rightfully so. Our days as a perennial conference contender graduated with Sobel and have't returned since. It's been a challenging start to the conference season, but between the less than ideal conference record and difficult offensive and defensive spurts, there's reason for optimism.

The pros:
Player development: Coming into this year, it was largely unclear who was going to shoulder the load of offensive production. The senior group (Flaks, Witherington, McKersie, etc.) have extensive experience playing meaningful basketball deep into the doldrums of Winter, but none have been historically relied on to artificially manufacture points or scoring opportunities outside the bounds of the offensive scheme. Each have been positive contributors this year, but from the upperclassman, it's been predominately Cwlanina, and perhaps more surprisingly, Murray, who have developed into dependable and formidable offensive weapons this year. We're all familiar with what Cwalina brings to the table in the form of scoring and outside shooting (believe he gave Emory a run for their money last year), but Murray's been a rarity of sorts in his ability to attack downhill and finish around the rim - something the Panthers have been acutely lacking in recent years. He played sparingly as a freshman and was used to fill minutes his sophomore year (2.3ppg). He's been the most consistent player for the Panthers this year and has clearly come into an identity of his own. These are two guys you can build off. Morrison has also been a bright spot this year.

Freshman: Ducree jumps off the board from a statistical standpoint. He's fearless in all offensive aspects of the game - Goldsmith has clearly given him the leash to hunt for his own opportunities - he takes (and makes) low-percentage shots, and will develop a feel for the game over time that will allow him to turn into a true offensive force. JF has an endless motor that converts loose balls into scoring opportunities and half court defensive rebounds into fast break opportunities. I trust Goldsmith is keeping a few of the freshman in his back pocket until they can develop. In terms of freshman production across the league, I think Midd stacks up nicely.

Offensive capabilities: I can't recall the last time I saw a team make 15+ threes a game with such ease. They have 5-6 players who are dangerous marksmen - the problem has been identifying which is in rhythm each game. The impressive (sometime frustrating) piece is that they all seem to be either (i) collectively in rhythm or (ii) collectively out of rhythm. I suppose that's the sort of team unison that you hope for. Not often can teams score both 100+ points in regulation and follow it up with an uninspiring 60 pt slogfest. The Panthers have an objectively dangerous background, that's deeper than it looks. Rarely does a team bring their two leading scorers off the bench. I was skeptical at first but have come to terms with it.

The bad:
Defense: I originally thought it was effort. But it's not. They try! They just cannot seem to stop the ball from going in the basket. They play as five individuals, each trying, but not as a units. Their rotations are slow and often wrong. They get beat on the perimeter constantly. It's not a recipe for success in the low possession NESCAC games that adhere to the play style of the better teams in the conference. That said, Middlebury has had some great teams in recent years that played generally lackluster defense. I envisioned that Goldsmith would wring this out upon arrival (and am sure he's trying his hardest), but this is clearly embedded into the fabric of the team. Not having a great rim protector hurts them as well.

Consistency: Like I said above. I'm frequently impressed how easy this team scores points - the three point line turns into the land of milk and honey in most out of conference home games. Sometimes, they have nothing going whatsoever. It hurts that regardless of the game, they take difficult shots regardless. That said, I don't think we'll be afflicted with the same offensive plague that seems to have infected Williams.

I do think this team makes the NESCAC playoffs, and I do think they drum up some chaos in the midst of that. They've played the hardest four games (I think) and I think need to go 4-2 going forth - which is doable. A big one this weekend with Williams for senior night - we are firmly in "must win" territory

[SpringSt7]

While it may be true that Williams facilities lag behind that of their peers, significantly in some cases, lets not pretend that this has hindered their ability to recruit in any major way (speaking only for basketball). Every year they get highly rated recruits, including many that most other NESCACs would have no chance at recruiting. Even this season there has been repeated talk on these boards about all the young talent on the roster. I think the biggest reason is simply the improvement of the rest of the league in recent years. Trinity and Wesleyan have had the best years in their history, Tufts has turned into a perennially ranked team, even Conn has become consistently competitive. It is no longer a three team league.

Williams wanted Oscar Edelman and couldn't get him in.

[D3BBALL]

While it may be true that Williams facilities lag behind that of their peers, significantly in some cases, lets not pretend that this has hindered their ability to recruit in any major way (speaking only for basketball). Every year they get highly rated recruits, including many that most other NESCACs would have no chance at recruiting. Even this season there has been repeated talk on these boards about all the young talent on the roster. I think the biggest reason is simply the improvement of the rest of the league in recent years. Trinity and Wesleyan have had the best years in their history, Tufts has turned into a perennially ranked team, even Conn has become consistently competitive. It is no longer a three team league.

Williams wanted Oscar Edelman and couldn't get him in.

Was that due to academics or financial?
He would look good on any NESCAC team.

[Greek Tragedy]

While it may be true that Williams facilities lag behind that of their peers, significantly in some cases, lets not pretend that this has hindered their ability to recruit in any major way (speaking only for basketball). Every year they get highly rated recruits, including many that most other NESCACs would have no chance at recruiting. Even this season there has been repeated talk on these boards about all the young talent on the roster. I think the biggest reason is simply the improvement of the rest of the league in recent years. Trinity and Wesleyan have had the best years in their history, Tufts has turned into a perennially ranked team, even Conn has become consistently competitive. It is no longer a three team league.

Williams wanted Oscar Edelman and couldn't get him in.

Maybe it's a 3 team league, just not the same 3 teams.

[el_jefe_90]

10-15 years ago, who would've thought that Middlebury and Williams basketball would be battling in the middle of the NESCAC season to see who would get their first win and get out of last place?

[NEhoops]

Just connected the dots that Shane Regan, an all-American last year at Wesleyan, is playing at Chicago and they are currently ranked #2 in the country per the latest D3 Hoops poll. Are there any other former NESCAC players that are thriving in other conferences? Who are the players that have transferred into the NESCAC that are making an impact this year?

Regarding the Williams program - Maker taking the job at Marist was a huge blow. He is arguably the best recruiter/offensive mind in the last 20+ years. 

[D3BBALL]

Just connected the dots that Shane Regan, an all-American last year at Wesleyan, is playing at Chicago and they are currently ranked #2 in the country per the latest D3 Hoops poll. Are there any other former NESCAC players that are thriving in other conferences? Who are the players that have transferred into the NESCAC that are making an impact this year?

Regarding the Williams program - Maker taking the job at Marist was a huge blow. He is arguably the best recruiter/offensive mind in the last 20+ years. 

Yes Regan having a very good year in the UAA, my guess up for player of the year, hopefully those coaches don't screw it up      .

On transfers, I think the couple of Conn players are having an impact on that team. Not sure any other team has any transfers or transfers that are making an impact.

[Bucket]

Just connected the dots that Shane Regan, an all-American last year at Wesleyan, is playing at Chicago and they are currently ranked #2 in the country per the latest D3 Hoops poll. Are there any other former NESCAC players that are thriving in other conferences? Who are the players that have transferred into the NESCAC that are making an impact this year?

Regarding the Williams program - Maker taking the job at Marist was a huge blow. He is arguably the best recruiter/offensive mind in the last 20+ years. 

Yes, but he was not long for Williams either way. He was already seeing the lack of institutional support. The bigger NESCAC what-if/screw-up was at Amherst, with the admin selecting Spears over Maker. Imagine the Lord Mammoths now if they had made the correct hire!

[Greek Tragedy]

I don't know the timeline, but was Maker available when Amherst hired Sears?

[Bucket]

I don't know the timeline, but was Maker available when Amherst hired Sears?

Yes. He interviewed and was a finalist.

[el_jefe_90]

I don't know the timeline, but was Maker available when Amherst hired Sears?

Many people thought it was either going to be Maker or Aaron Toomey, who was of course the best player in Amherst history and was the interim when Dave Hixon went on sabbatical, and eventually retired.

[JEFFFAN]

Oh good Lord you guys have ruined my day!   I did not know that Maker was a finalist and lost to DEI.   What a serious bummer for my Lord Jeffs!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

He ended up taking the job as Associate Head Coach at St. Thomas to begin recruiting as they transitioned from d3 to d1.  I believe he's still there in that role.

[BaboNation]

Just connected the dots that Shane Regan, an all-American last year at Wesleyan, is playing at Chicago and they are currently ranked #2 in the country per the latest D3 Hoops poll. Are there any other former NESCAC players that are thriving in other conferences? Who are the players that have transferred into the NESCAC that are making an impact this year?

Regarding the Williams program - Maker taking the job at Marist was a huge blow. He is arguably the best recruiter/offensive mind in the last 20+ years. 

Yes, but he was not long for Williams either way. He was already seeing the lack of institutional support. The bigger NESCAC what-if/screw-up was at Amherst, with the admin selecting Spears over Maker. Imagine the Lord Mammoths now if they had made the correct hire!

I've got no skin in this, but the logic seems inconsistent.  Maker was seeing a lack of support at Williams, but his radar wasn't tracking anything like that going on at Amherst?  Why would he want to throw his hat in the ring? Isn't the support at Amherst (from what I've read) far less than what it was for most of Hixon's tenure?