MBB: NESCAC

[D3BALL13]

I don't know if this is the best metric or the worst metric to decide this but Cuevas, Vetter, Okorougo, are just better at basketball than Pohlman. I think we get way too bogged down by stats when doing these. If you asked 100 D3 basketball fans to watch these teams play without knowing who was who and then asked them who the best player was, Pohlman would get the 4th most votes. I don't know that people would think he is better than Wolinski either

this is a horrible metric to decide POTY, in my opinion. Yes, those three are more "talented" than Pohlman, but talent doesn't always indicate impact on a team. All four have been huge for their respective squads, but Pohlman just happens to be on the one that is in first place. We are now trying to discredit him for that when before the season, Wesleyan was being written off due to their losses.

[SpringSt7]

I did not use the word talented, I said better. Jared Berry is more talented than Henry Vetter. Pohlman is far more "talented" than Pouye or Dan Civello. Those are different. All of the guys I mentioned are better at basketball than Pohlman

[D3BBALL]

D3bball, I understand that YOU consider only the 10 official league games, but I've never understood that to be the actual criteria used by the coaches in determining player of the year.  It's not "best player exclusively in league games."  It's certainly fair to weigh those more heavily but if someone was brilliant for those ten games and stank in the other 14 games, they would not, and should not, be POTY. 

That is an interesting point, and hard to say exactly what criteria the coaches look at. I don't think they got it right last year on a number of selections, not just on Morgan but on others that had no right being selected as a top 14 player in the league. So not sure how many coaches actually spend time doing their homework. Also don't know if coaches can choose their own players, so that hurts as well both ways. And do some coaches not vote some players in, based on dislike?
Before last year, I think there was a pretty much agreement that Murray in 2024 and Sobel in 2023 were going to win POY. In 2022 when Peek won it, he was 4th in the league in scoring counting all games and he was 1st just in NESCAC. Does this mean the coaches rely significantly more on league games, again hard to know, my guess yes. As stated above, not sure some coaches look at anything but the games they played against their choices.
I have used it, because IMO, it is the only way to compare them fairly. These are league awards. If someone is dominating in the league, no matter what they did outside, I don't think the coaches are going to hold that against the person. Vis versa if someone has been great outside the league but not good in the league, I do think they will hold that against them.
There are some NESCAC teams that play a tougher outside schedule, certainly better than others in the league. But for the most part, the games the NESCAC teams play outside of the league are against teams that would be disastrous in the NESCAC league. You take Williams, Middlebury and Hamilton and put them in most of the other conferences, and they are not close to last place. Certainly not Williams and Middlebury.
You take a look at Okorougo and Vetter, outside of conference, Trinity was winning games by over 30 points, and both playing less minutes, less shots, less scoring. I don't know how you can compare them to say Cuevas who was playing more minutes and taking more shots and playing closer games. Okorougo and Cuevas, both have taken about the same number of shots in league play. Their difference in scoring is Cuevas takes and makes more 3's. But Okorougo rebounds better and is a better defender. Vetter averages 3 more points in league than he does overall, that is pretty substantial. Cuevas is the other way, he averages about 2 points more per game out of league than in league. How do you fairly calculate for these differences.
To me just use league numbers. Cuevas has a chance this weekend to make a point, he may win it either way. Pohlman, I don't think will get the credit he deserves and Okorougo and Vetter are probably going to lose votes to each other.

[D3BBALL]

I did not use the word talented, I said better. Jared Berry is more talented than Henry Vetter. Pohlman is far more "talented" than Pouye or Dan Civello. Those are different. All of the guys I mentioned are better at basketball than Pohlman

Sorry should have used "better", but when using talented I meant it the same way. Would have to know what your definition is of better. I would disagree on Berry being more talented than Vetter. I would disagree on Pohlman being more talented than Pouye. Would have been nice to see what Pouye could have done if he had stayed healthy this season. Pohlman more talented than Civello, yes today, but long term it is a wait and see as to what Civello does in the next 2 years. It is hard enough to compare a center to a point guard and even harder when the center is not nearly as athletic as the guard. I don't think either Civello or Berry are better at basketball than Pohlman this season. Pohlman is a much more complete player than both of them. Berry not the same player he was last year, early season injury may have hurt him. But for this season, and most play a different position than Pohlman, so not easy to say who is better at basketball, I would take Pohlman's basketball play over the others this year. Does not mean I would take him first if picking a team, no not at all, just based on everyone's play this season.

[D3BBALL]

I don't know if this is the best metric or the worst metric to decide this but Cuevas, Vetter, Okorougo, are just better at basketball than Pohlman. I think we get way too bogged down by stats when doing these. If you asked 100 D3 basketball fans to watch these teams play without knowing who was who and then asked them who the best player was, Pohlman would get the 4th most votes. I don't know that people would think he is better than Wolinski either

this is a horrible metric to decide POTY, in my opinion. Yes, those three are more "talented" than Pohlman, but talent doesn't always indicate impact on a team. All four have been huge for their respective squads, but Pohlman just happens to be on the one that is in first place. We are now trying to discredit him for that when before the season, Wesleyan was being written off due to their losses.

I have a fan!!!!, and 100% agree. Please let everyone know we are not related,     

[NEhoops]

I think the coaches are definitely factoring in what players affect winning the most when voting on post season awards. They have the best sense of that, particularly when seeing the players live.

[D3BBALL]

Picks for this week, last week 8-2 overall 31-14

Friday
Bowdoin 73 at Wesleyan 65 - Upset pick
Amherst 71 at Middlebury 65
Colby 61 at Trinity 83
Hamilton 63 Williams 68 - Breaks into win Column
Conn 68 at Bates 79

Saturday
Hamilton 69 at Middlebury 81
Colby 70 at Wesleyan 81
Amherst 79 at Williams 61
Bowdoin 59 at Trinity 85 - Might decide POY

Sunday
Tufts 72 at Bates 79

[Stickthe3]

Weekend picks. 8-2 last week, 30-15 overall.

Friday
Bowdoin 68 at Wesleyan 78
Amherst 72 at Middlebury 57
Colby 62 at Trinity 78
Hamilton 64 at Williams 67
Conn College 75 at Bates 71

Saturday
Hamilton 70 at Middlebury 65
Colby 67 at Wesleyan 74
Amherst 71 at Williams 59
Bowdoin 55 at Trinity 73

Sunday
Tufts 78 at Bates 70

[D3BALL13]

Weekend picks

Friday
Bowdoin 65 at Wesleyan 72
Amherst 76 at Middlebury 60
Colby 65 at Trinity 75
Hamilton 60 at Williams 65
Conn College 70 at Bates 73

Saturday
Hamilton 60 at Middlebury 70
Colby 74 at Wesleyan 70
Amherst 76 at Williams 60
Bowdoin 62 at Trinity 70

Sunday
Tufts 80 at Bates 75

[nescac1]

Can we just end the Cuevas-may-not-be-POTY silliness after that game?  Bowdoin really should have won that game but the free throw shooting (a brutal 8-24 as a team including I think 5-18 in the second half) absolutely murdered them.  Cuevas was hounded up and down the court by defensive specialist Josh Cameron, who I think is the best one-on-one defender in the league and would be a very good D1 defender.  And Cameron received a lot of help from teammates too -- Wesleyan even went box-and-one for a few minutes, how often do you see that in NESCAC?  Despite all that attention, Cuevas went off for 28 on 11-17 shooting, including 5-6 from three, and only turned it over once despite looking absolutely exhausted down the stretch. 

Pohlman had his usual very solid game, putting up 14 on 5-14 from the field including 0-3 from outside, but was at best the third-best player on the floor.  Massively underrated Zach Wolinski had a HUGE game and has certainly locked down a spot on the first-team all-NESCAC team with two years left in his career, the guy can hit it from any distance and any angle and if there is a dark-horse POTY candidate on Wesleyan, I'd say it's him.

Turning to Williams, delighted to see the Ephs get off the schneid in resounding fashion, at least they avoid the ignominy of a winless league season. I can't believe Hamilton won a game in the league and lost by one in two others, they looked brutal today on both ends, of course didn't help that their best scorer was out.  Such a different team, obviously, without Morgan and Singh.  For Williams, finally seeing some 3's go down early made a world of difference as the team was confident and in rhythm for the first time in a long time.  This team was never going to finish in the top half of the league, but man they showed today that there is enough talent to have played a lot better this season and hopefully provide some glimpse of hope for the future. 

Matt Devine had his best game as an Eph and has been improving over the course of the season.  His three point shot has come a long way and nearly every finish at the rim for him is gorgeous - probably 10 of the top 15 Eph finishes this year are attributable to him, and I really think he should be a consistent double-digit scorer as a senior.  AS one of three returning starters next year, he needs to make a big leap forward and have the game-to-game production start to match all of the highlight-reel plays going to the rim.  Improving from the foul line would help!  Devine, Yates, and Rein all shot the ball really well and all three will be returning starters next year - this is the way they need to play consistently for the Ephs to make a leap , that and EJ Sommers making a big leap and coming back as a strong starter at the 5.  Justin Belcher is playing a lot more under control of late as the de facto starting point guard, he will likely have that role next year and is another guy who the Ephs need to see make a leap.   

Shout out to Ben McGraw whose career was ruined by terrible injury luck.  In his first play in two seasons, he came in and absolute nailed a three point shot.  He has without question one of the five most gorgeous shooting motions I've seen for an Eph player, it's such a shame he played so few games over the course of his career.  Williams would have been SUCH a different team this year with a healthy Lee and McGraw providing the outside shooting that this team desperately needed.  Oh well.  Hopefully the Ephs can bring the same energy tomorrow and end the season with a big upset over Amherst.  Certainly, against Amherst's D guys won't have 2-3 seconds to set up from three point range like they did today, but maybe seeing the shots finally fall will give this team some confidence from the outside.  Amherst is absolutely locked in right now but anything can happen in a rivalry game!

[D3BBALL]

We are going to disagree on this forever, lol.
I'll say whay I said last year if there was an offensive player of the year award, last year Morgan should've gotten it, if there was an offensive player of the year this year Cuevas should get it. Both hands down no one should disagree with that.That being said he started 8 of 9 last night and finished 3 of 8 and I think he missed his last 3 of his 4 shots. He was not great defensively had 2 assists, 1 of 3 from the line. That is not player of the year. He is having a great offensive year. You have to win some big games to be player of the year. Last year, Morgan had three shots against Wesleyan, Trinity and Tufts. Against Wesleyan and Trinity they had pretty substantial leads at halftime at home and lost both games by pretty significant margins. Against Tufts he was not good in the first half when the game was decided. And in the second half he got a bunch of garbage points. He had another opportunity in the playoffs and still couldn't do it against Wesleyan. And I believe they lost their first round NCAA game against a team that they were picked to beat.
Bowdoin's five wins are against Middlebury, Williams, Hamilton, Colby, Conn. it can't just be about scoring you have to do more than that to be player of the year. Unless of course your scoring brings about some big wins. Who has Bowdoin beat this year that is in the running for the NCAA, I think just Saint Joe's at home. A game I think he scored 12 points. A team unless they win their conference is probably not going to make the NCAA.You have to win some big games. Which neither Morgan or Cuevas has done. Maybe he does it today Against Trinity. I doubt it.
I don't think player of the year means having the highest scoring average. Yes, if he was on some other team that had better surrounding talent, it may be a moot point. But he is not. If he is so good this year why hasn't he gotten his team to win one big game.

[nescac1]

D3bball, are you aware that there are four other players on the floor during all these games you reference? 

[Bucket]

Ray Cuevas has a hard time guarding a parking cone. He can shoot. He can score. But he's far from an excellent all-around player and he plays on a mediocre team. If he's named POY, I'd have to believe it's based solely on a selective reading of a stat sheet.

[D3BBALL]

Ray Cuevas has a hard time guarding a parking cone. He can shoot. He can score. But he's far from an excellent all-around player and he plays on a mediocre team. If he's named POY, I'd have to believe it's based solely on a selective reading of a stat sheet.

Agree

[D3BBALL]

D3bball, are you aware that there are four other players on the floor during all these games you reference? 

I'm at the Trinity games Cuevas has 9 points and zero against the first team of Trinity with 15 minutes left. Trinity is not playing a box and 1 or and any special defense. Just straight up and switching. Not POY!
As stated above he is a scorer period.