MBB: NESCAC

[D3BBALL]

Amherst is 18-7 with wins over Tufts, Wesleyan, and Bates. They have 3 bad losses - Springfield, Whittier, and Williams (who NPI did not hate FYI) but those 3 wins are doing a lot for them and they were always going to have a very strong resume when it came down to it

Agree, it's going to take a number of teams below them playing very well the last 10 days and/or four or five conference automatic qualifier thieves

[jumbomumbo]

Let's get weird... tufts bates NESCAC final. Give it to me

[nescac1]

I hate to beat the Cuevas dead-horse, but since D3bball insists on going there, at least in the part of the Trinity-Bowdoin game I watched, Trinity kept trapping him when he got the ball, switching aggressively and often sending two guys at him as soon as he was 30 feet from the basket.  Despite that, he lead his team with 17 points, and hit a crazy tough clutch deep three-pointer while getting fouled to bring the game within one (alas, he did miss the free throw).  One of D3bball's criticisms of Cuevas in certain games against elite teams was "sure he had great stats but those stats were accumulated too early in games so they don't 'count'".  Well, in this game, Bowdoin only had a chance to potentially pull a monumental upset because Cuevas, despite getting all that defensive attention, personally outscored Trinity's entire team 10-8 in the last five minutes of the game.  Unfortunately, his teammates only managed to score two points, so Bowdoin fell one point short. But now I guess late-game performance is irrelevant.

I also note that three of the top five players in the league were playing in that game.  Okorougo went 3-12 for 9 points and Vetter went 6-18 for 14 points.  Is that counted against them, or is only Cuevas ever dinged for a (very rare) off-shooting night (but not off in the clutch).  I know he gets dinged for his defense, too, but he did pick up three steals (including a big one late in the game) and Trinity's starting backcourt shot 3-12 for a total of 11 points, so he can't be TOO much of a "turnstile" defensively.  I feel the guy is held to an impossible standard and if he played on any of the top three teams where he had 2-3 other guys around him who could score reliably instead of basically zero (and had more energy to save for defending as well since he has to be the primary ball-handler and scorer for his team every minute he's out there) no one would have any doubt that he was the top guy in the league.  If one player was consistently awesome, night after night, on Trinity, Wesleyan or Tufts, sure, give it to them, but the top guys on those teams have all been less consistent than you'd like for a POTY and all have had their share of dud games. 

On another subject, Amherst will definitely be watching the CCIW, Landmark, and ODAC playoffs closely.  If Roanoke and VWU win first round games and play each other, and Carthage and Elmurst win first round games and play each other, that is at least two and quite possibly as many as four teams right behind Amherst in NPI who could leap them. Likewise, if Scranton wins its first round game and plays Drew, the winner of that game will surely leap Amherst (especially if they play Catholic in the title game) and Scranton might even have a shot as well with a win and then a high-value loss against Drew.  That would suddenly make things much trickier for Amherst and they'd need very few bid thiefs in other conferences to survive.  Amherst will be rooting for all five of those teams to be upset in the first round of their league playoffs, a few first round upsets in those leagues would really help Amherst feel more secure.  I wonder if Bates would drop behind Amherst with a loss next weekend, I don't think so because the game will really boost SOS, but perhaps? 

[ItsATuftSituation]

Re: Cuevas...first of all, supreme talent. Watched the Trinity-Bowdoin game, and he was obviously the first, second and third option, and Trinity was doing everything they could to stop him. I don't doubt his ability, but to me, the POTY needs to come from a team that's near the top of the standings...if not the regular season champion. That's just me, but Pohlman or Gyimesi would get my vote this year. The times I've watched those two guys, I just feel their importance to their teams on squads that went 8-2 in the league. Maybe it's not a MVP award, and just straight POTY, but to me I just feel like this is the way it's going to go. Also, there definitely is a "career award" piece to this, thus why I think one of the Trinity guys or Gyimesi is going to get it. So, my vote Pohlman or Gyimesi, thought is Gyimesi or Vetter/Okorougo get it.

Lastly, end of the Bowdoin-Trin game was interesting in that at the end, Cosgrove came out onto the floor for some reason (there wasn't an altercation at all, or it didn't seem like it on the broadcast) and pushed his players back to the bench including Trevor Macdonald in the face. Anyone know why?

[D3BBALL]

Nescac1 not sure which parts you watched but the only time trinity doubled Cuevas was on hedges on the outside and then they just switched defenders. It was one on one most of the game. When he drove in the paint there were some doubles but trinity does that against everyone. Cuevas had 12 turn overs in his last 2 games. 12 and you don't bring that up at all. That single point only shows he is not POY. You said the same about Morgan not winning games due to his lack of support, but Cuevas stats are NO WHERE near Morgan's last season, not close in any of them. Also please show me where you are quoting me because I don't believe I ever made that statement about Cuevas. I said last week in the game, he was in there at garbage time padding his stats besides that I don't believe I said what you stated there. And as a matter of fact, earlier in the season, I even stated how well he played in second half of games to keep his team close when he didn't have good first half's, which I said was the opposite of Morgan the previous year. And Morgan played much harder than Cuevas does. Anybody can see that. So don't quote me wrong. And stop playing the "if"  game he is not on another team. "If" Vetter was on Bowdoin's team he would have the same if not more points than Cuevas and a better all around player and plays harder. Still wouldn't give the award to Vetter. After watching Cuevas play for 3 straight games, he has talent to play D1 and Lazarre is a great defender in the NESCAC but almost every team in D1 has Lazarre type defenders and taller, so Cuevas would not come close to dominating on a mid major or higher.
He missed a free throw to tie the game with 15 seconds left, correct. So a chance to tie the game and he couldn't do it, with the season on the line. Then you bash his teammates and the only reason Bowdoin had a shot in the last 15 seconds is because his teammates got the rebound off of his miss against Okorougo, so again you didn't watch the game correctly. And a number of his teammates played very well the entire game. It was a big reason they were even in the game at the end of the game. 12 turnovers in 2 games I wonder when the last time that had happened in the league. Most were terrible.
Trinity played poorly, played into Bowdoin's physical nature at times and chipping play and they retaliated a number of times. And the game was reffed the only way Bowdoin had a shot. They play another 10 times trinity wins all ten and blows them out 8.
The end of the game there was a lot of **** talking going on mostly by Bowdoin and looked like Cosgrove didn't care for his players chirping back at Bowdoin players so he grab McDonald and another player. I didn't see a push in face just a grab and push back. I think he could've also been concerned of losing a player for the next round. Trinity had one player Berete thrown out earlier in the game.
On the POY I do think Gyimesi gets lost in the shuffle here probably because he didn't score as many points as others . If he played the way he did against Colby scoring wise all year, could've been my pick for player of the year. Again, I'm still going with pohlman.

In an earlier post, it said Gyimesi may have been injured. Does anybody have an update on that?

[D3BBALL]

Let's get weird... tufts bates NESCAC final. Give it to me

You drinking too much😂😂😂😂

[nescac1]

I'm also not sure why Wolinski gets no love in these POTY discussions if we are going to be talking about Wesleyan guards.  I think Pohlman has had a great year (and I've sung his praises since he was a FY), and deserves first-team all-league, but Wolinski has outperformed him in scoring (by a LOT), all of the shooting categories (by a significant amount), more steals, fewer turnovers, and is a very good rebounder for his size (though Pohlman is better).  Pohlman obviously has the ball a lot more as a point guard and gets a ton of assists, but again, those assist numbers are wildly inflated at home (can't fudge shooting stats, however!), and the fact that he's a point guard who struggles to shoot the 3 ball is something that matters if we are talking about the rarified air of a POTY candidate. 

Wolinski almost never sits and yet seems tireless, running around like Steph Curry trying to find open shots as he is always stuck with the best defender glued to him.  And the thing with Wolinski is he seems to bail Wesleyan out a lot with REALLY tough, very contested shots that he can get off from crazy angles or spots on the floor late in the shot clock.  And Wolinski REALLY picked it up in league play, leading the league in scoring during league play on high efficiency, while Pohlman's shooting dropped off quite a bit. 

In the end, I imagine a senior will get the award over either of two sophomore guards, but I bet if coaches were drafting simply the best player for one game this post-season, Cuevas would go first and Wolinski would get picked over anyone else save for Vetter, Okorougo and Gyimesi. 

D3, I'm done with talking about Cuevas, but I don't understand why you keep talking about my advocacy for Morgan as if it was somehow proven deficient.  (And btw, no, I do not think Cuevas had quite as good a year as Morgan, who was historically good, but that isn't the standard - the POTY candidates this year are simply weaker than the top two guys last season or really any year in the 2020s so far).  First, the coaches agreed he was POTY.  Second, I mean, it's obvious I was correct about the lack of support he had just looking at Hamilton this year!  Yeah, they also lost a few other important guys, it wasn't JUST Morgan they are missing, but I mean, they went from 20-7 to losing in double OT in the NESCAC semis against Wesleyan to a brutal 6-18 and 10th in the conference.  I feel pretty validated about my take on Morgan's importance to the team - there just wasn't a huge amount of talent around him last year!

In the end, maybe it comes down to I value guys who can get their own shot against top defenders, especially when those shots include a high volume of 3's, more than any other skill.  You have to be super super elite at defense or rebounding or setting other guys up or really several of those to be remotely as valuable as guys who have that skill.   And perhaps that's why I value Morgan, Cuevas and Wolinski so highly as they do the single most important thing in basketball really, really well.  (It's also why Williams struggled so badly this year after Lee went down, the Ephs did have a lot of good players but no single guy who could ever really create and finish from the perimeter on his own).   

[D3BALL13]

How about them Bates Bobcats! Huge win at Amherst and are going to take on Wesleyan in the semis. I see this one being much closer then when they played a couple of weeks ago. It looks like they have found a groove, nearly beating Tufts and knocking off Amherst after not many believed in them. Dare I say Bates pulls it off? Probably not... but Wesleyan could be thinking about Tufts or Trinity a little too early and it could happen.

[toad22]

To me, the question is, what do the coaches think the award is - the POTY or the MVP. The best player vs the most important player. The most important player (to his team) is often not the best player.

[D3BBALL]

How about them Bates Bobcats! Huge win at Amherst and are going to take on Wesleyan in the semis. I see this one being much closer then when they played a couple of weeks ago. It looks like they have found a groove, nearly beating Tufts and knocking off Amherst after not many believed in them. Dare I say Bates pulls it off? Probably not... but Wesleyan could be thinking about Tufts or Trinity a little too early and it could happen.

They are having a great season. No pressure on them, they are in the NCAA. Might just be time for Pouye to have his game of the season. So many players contributing in different ways! Both games could be really close this  weekend.

[NEhoops]

The coaches are definitely noticing the play of Gyimesi, particularly after his last two games (against Bates and Colby) where he averaged 23 points and 12.5 rebounds, while shooting 68% from the field. Hopefully he is healthy heading into this weekend.

Regarding a bid, I think Amherst is in good shape, in large part because of their wins against Tufts and Wesleyan. Hoping to see the NESCAC get five teams in!

Beating Wesleyan will be a tall task for Bates. I agree that it will likely be a closer game, partially because it won't be a back-to-back for Bates. They played at Trinity the night before their last meeting in early February.

[D3BBALL]

The coaches are definitely noticing the play of Gyimesi, particularly after his last two games (against Bates and Colby) where he averaged 23 points and 12.5 rebounds, while shooting 68% from the field. Hopefully he is healthy heading into this weekend.

Regarding a bid, I think Amherst is in good shape, in large part because of their wins against Tufts and Wesleyan. Hoping to see the NESCAC get five teams in!

Beating Wesleyan will be a tall task for Bates. I agree that it will likely be a closer game, partially because it won't be a back-to-back for Bates. They played at Trinity the night before their last meeting in early February.

I believe all voting was done right after regular season so unfortunately last weeks games won't matter

[Stickthe3]

The coaches are definitely noticing the play of Gyimesi, particularly after his last two games (against Bates and Colby) where he averaged 23 points and 12.5 rebounds, while shooting 68% from the field. Hopefully he is healthy heading into this weekend.

Regarding a bid, I think Amherst is in good shape, in large part because of their wins against Tufts and Wesleyan. Hoping to see the NESCAC get five teams in!

Beating Wesleyan will be a tall task for Bates. I agree that it will likely be a closer game, partially because it won't be a back-to-back for Bates. They played at Trinity the night before their last meeting in early February.

Bates was on the Friday/Sunday conference schedule this year so their earlier game against Wesleyan wasn't actually a back-to-back.  Even if it was, the back-to-back scheduling is part of the fabric of NESCAC hoops and shouldn't be  used as an excuse.

[SpringSt7]

The Friday/Sunday is still a disadvantage and the other team only has to play one game, but yes, I agree that it probably wasn't the reason they lost

[D3BBALL]

I'm also not sure why Wolinski gets no love in these POTY discussions if we are going to be talking about Wesleyan guards.  I think Pohlman has had a great year (and I've sung his praises since he was a FY), and deserves first-team all-league, but Wolinski has outperformed him in scoring (by a LOT), all of the shooting categories (by a significant amount), more steals, fewer turnovers, and is a very good rebounder for his size (though Pohlman is better).  Pohlman obviously has the ball a lot more as a point guard and gets a ton of assists, but again, those assist numbers are wildly inflated at home (can't fudge shooting stats, however!), and the fact that he's a point guard who struggles to shoot the 3 ball is something that matters if we are talking about the rarified air of a POTY candidate. 

Wolinski almost never sits and yet seems tireless, running around like Steph Curry trying to find open shots as he is always stuck with the best defender glued to him.  And the thing with Wolinski is he seems to bail Wesleyan out a lot with REALLY tough, very contested shots that he can get off from crazy angles or spots on the floor late in the shot clock.  And Wolinski REALLY picked it up in league play, leading the league in scoring during league play on high efficiency, while Pohlman's shooting dropped off quite a bit. 

In the end, I imagine a senior will get the award over either of two sophomore guards, but I bet if coaches were drafting simply the best player for one game this post-season, Cuevas would go first and Wolinski would get picked over anyone else save for Vetter, Okorougo and Gyimesi. 

D3, I'm done with talking about Cuevas, but I don't understand why you keep talking about my advocacy for Morgan as if it was somehow proven deficient.  (And btw, no, I do not think Cuevas had quite as good a year as Morgan, who was historically good, but that isn't the standard - the POTY candidates this year are simply weaker than the top two guys last season or really any year in the 2020s so far).  First, the coaches agreed he was POTY.  Second, I mean, it's obvious I was correct about the lack of support he had just looking at Hamilton this year!  Yeah, they also lost a few other important guys, it wasn't JUST Morgan they are missing, but I mean, they went from 20-7 to losing in double OT in the NESCAC semis against Wesleyan to a brutal 6-18 and 10th in the conference.  I feel pretty validated about my take on Morgan's importance to the team - there just wasn't a huge amount of talent around him last year!

In the end, maybe it comes down to I value guys who can get their own shot against top defenders, especially when those shots include a high volume of 3's, more than any other skill.  You have to be super super elite at defense or rebounding or setting other guys up or really several of those to be remotely as valuable as guys who have that skill.   And perhaps that's why I value Morgan, Cuevas and Wolinski so highly as they do the single most important thing in basketball really, really well.  (It's also why Williams struggled so badly this year after Lee went down, the Ephs did have a lot of good players but no single guy who could ever really create and finish from the perimeter on his own).   

NESCAC1 you value scoring/offensive play, I value how players impact winning games. Last Year Morgan was SOOOOO much better than Cuevas this year, in every way of the game, scoring, defense, hustle etc. It is not even close. I never said is was deficient. Morgan was fabulous last year on offense, my point was that Regan was the all around better player. It came down to the 2 of them, I would have chosen Regan.  Last year you stated Morgan did not have talent around him, many times, to win against the better teams. And you stated the same thing this year, and again their stats are not that close. Morgan played way harder than Cuevas played this year. Now its the talent level at the top is not the same as last year. Well Vetter, Okorougo and Gyimesi are still around, all up for honors outside of the league. I guess they all just played poorly this year and 2 were in the running last year for POY. You question his teammates talent, yet his teammates did as much as he did to keep them in the game on Saturday, and again you conveniently forget or didn't watch, the fact with the game on the line he missed the tying FT and that his teammates got the offensive rebound! 12 Turnovers in 2 games, many terrible turnovers. 2 total assists in those games. I guess that counts for nothing. Facts you leave out.
Coaches pick the winners, doesn't make the choice right or wrong, its an opinion. There were former players on here last year that said their pick would have been Regan and explained why. Does it make their pick less valid. There are many coaches in the league that are not great at coaching, so just taking their votes doesn't make it right. Just like my picks doesn't make it right or wrong. It is strictly an opinion.
There is not a single coach in the league with any sense that would take Cuevas over Gyimesi, Okorougo or Vetter. They would be plain stupid. But again a number of coaches in the league are not that good. All 3 of these impact the game way more than Cuevas. Put any of them on Bowdoin and IMO they would score the same if not more than Cuevas, play harder and impact the game in many more areas that just scoring. Maybe not win any more games, but impact the games. The more I watch Cuevas, they more it becomes clear he would have a tough time at a Mid major or greater. There are Drew Lazarre's on every team at that level, and taller, and just as quick. And Cuevas would be a defensive liability, at least they way he plays now. All my opinion.

But you missed quoted me, have not shown where I said that, which goes to your credibility! You want to disagree fine, but don't miss quote me.

Wolinski in the 2 most important games was not that good this year. I had him as first/second team all year and at the end of the year I had him easily on the first team. But Pohlman played better way better when it mattered. Pohlman is top 15 in scoring, top 5 in rebounds and assists. Wolinski is not close to that. 1st team no doubt about it, POY contention, no way.
You are about scoring, but neither Morgan, who IMO at least deserved to be included and win the POY, and Cuevas impacted the game they way a POY should and that is by winning. Bowdoin was 0-6 against the top 5 teams in the league. Against those teams they lost by 12, by 12, by 37, by 11, by 28, and by 1. And they game by one his teammates kept them in the game as much as Cuevas did. Anyone could see that.