MBB: NESCAC

[midranger]

I'm a recently retired NESCAC player and long time reader of these boards who has played against most guys in these conversations.

D3BBALL - your claim that no coach would take Cuevas over Gyimesi, Okorougo, or Vetter is pretty ridiculous. If all teams were to disband and there was a redraft, Cuevas would go first overall 99/100 times. As someone who has played against all these players and teams, Cuevas is a special talent and every coach in the league treats him as such. Also, your constant references to Hank Morgan are silly. He was the best player in the league last year and won POTY, probably by a wide margin. If anything, Morgan winning POTY last year strengthens nescac1's argument that elite production can override team success (or lack thereof). Insisting that Cuevas is undeserving because Morgan had a better season last year is a moot point. Sobel in 2023 was better than Murray in 2024, who were probably both stronger than any candidate this season. That didn't make Murray undeserving nor does it have anything to do with the current season.

At the end of the day, the POTY debate, to me, should come down to a simple question: Who was the best player in the league? Most people around the league would agree that Cuevas separated himself from the pack  by this metric. I understand the team success argument, and would not disagree with Vetter, Okorougo, Gyimesi, or even Wolinski as POTY, but none of those guys are the best player in the league. Cuevas is.

The POTY usually comes from one of the top teams, and for a good reason, but as nescac1 points out there really isn't a definitive 'best player' among the top few teams. Gyimesi is clearly Tufts' best player, but Wesleyan and Trinity are really 2 (and arguably 3-4) headed snakes. For that reason, my vote would be Cuevas. Maybe you will be right, only time will tell. But the Cuevas slander is silly.

[nescac1]

Midranger, I'm obviously biased given the subject matter, but heck of a first post!  Look forward to more. 

[jumbomumbo]

I'm going to be honest, Cuevas is great but not PoTY great. I value winning. I don't care what other metrics go into it. I'd take any tufts, trin, or Wesleyan guard over him if I have the #1 spot on a re-draft.

[SpringSt7]

I have no issue with Cuevas but the more time goes by the more strongly I feel about Vetter POY. We can pretend like that Trinity team is absolutely loaded with offensive talent but it really isn't. Ayles and Davis are nice role players but nothing more yet. We talk Lazarre up a lot and he's probably worthy of a 2nd team all league spot but that is more defense than offense. Neither he or Okorougo make anyone better offensively or really make the defense work. Vetter is the straw that stirs the drink offensively, sets their entire tone as a leader, etc, two year captain. Has the ball in his hands at the end of the game and is the most likely to come through (see: national championship winning 3 with 10 seconds remaining)

He is my POY and it really has nothing to do with Cuevas or anyone else. I just think he is the most deserving and the best player

[jumbomumbo]

In a year with no clear cut PoTY... go with the dude on the 2nd placed team averaging a double double and top 5 in nearly every statistical category. But but.. what about Pohlman? Wesleyan's honor should be with coach of the year. Trinity lost to tufts and Wes, so screw them across the board. Bronze medal.

Scott Gyimesi is the best player in the league. Not his fault his coach blew the game against Wesleyan.

Now to give Coach Linton credit he is by far the best looking coach in the league. And if Trinity didn't exist he'd maybe have 2 nescac titles already.

[jumbomumbo]

If Scott Gyimesi goes 4 years without a NESCAC PoTY, it will confirm what I have long suspected. Collectively, the NESCAC awards mediocracy. And it makes sense, considering many of these coaches voting have never sniffed an NCAA tournament game. WINNING MATTERS!

[NEhoops]

Great insight all around on this.

I think Gyimesi is the front runner and deservedly so.

If Cuevas was to win, it would be 2nd time in conference history that the player of the year was from a team that didn't finish 1st or 2nd (or at least tied for that place) in the standings. Someone can fact check me on that.

I also think the players in contention for Trinity and Wesleyan could ultimately split votes.

[D3BBALL]

I'm a recently retired NESCAC player and long time reader of these boards who has played against most guys in these conversations.

D3BBALL - your claim that no coach would take Cuevas over Gyimesi, Okorougo, or Vetter is pretty ridiculous. If all teams were to disband and there was a redraft, Cuevas would go first overall 99/100 times. As someone who has played against all these players and teams, Cuevas is a special talent and every coach in the league treats him as such. Also, your constant references to Hank Morgan are silly. He was the best player in the league last year and won POTY, probably by a wide margin. If anything, Morgan winning POTY last year strengthens nescac1's argument that elite production can override team success (or lack thereof). Insisting that Cuevas is undeserving because Morgan had a better season last year is a moot point. Sobel in 2023 was better than Murray in 2024, who were probably both stronger than any candidate this season. That didn't make Murray undeserving nor does it have anything to do with the current season.

At the end of the day, the POTY debate, to me, should come down to a simple question: Who was the best player in the league? Most people around the league would agree that Cuevas separated himself from the pack  by this metric. I understand the team success argument, and would not disagree with Vetter, Okorougo, Gyimesi, or even Wolinski as POTY, but none of those guys are the best player in the league. Cuevas is.

The POTY usually comes from one of the top teams, and for a good reason, but as nescac1 points out there really isn't a definitive 'best player' among the top few teams. Gyimesi is clearly Tufts' best player, but Wesleyan and Trinity are really 2 (and arguably 3-4) headed snakes. For that reason, my vote would be Cuevas. Maybe you will be right, only time will tell. But the Cuevas slander is silly.

Like NESCAC1, you miss quote what I said. I never said any coach would not choose Cuevas over Vetter, Gyimesi or Okorougo. What I said was no coach with any sense would choose him. I am sure there are a few that would, those coaches wouldn't be smart, IMO. Last year the coaches voted Singh as 2nd team All Conference. They clearly got that wrong, he shot 35% Fg and 25% from three and like I said last year if Morgan was getting all the attention of other teams should have been easier for his teammates to score. So the coaches either don't care how they vote or don't do their homework when voting. If you asked Reilly or Cosgrove and you got an honest answer from them, they would take Vetter, Okorougo, Gyimesi and I will add in Johnson and Regan before Cuevas. Both these coaches want players that first and foremost play hard all the time and give an effort on defense all the time. Cuevas doesn't do that. I am not the only one on this board saying this.
Using Sobel or Murray just makes my point. Sobel was not only POY in the NESCAC but POY in D3 and Murray was easily the top choice. But more importantly they both impacted the game other than just offensive and their teams were at the top of the league.
We disagree on the definition of "best player in the league" you value scoring and/or offensive play, I value impact on winning, and winning against good teams especially in league play, its an opinion, neither is right or wrong. Slander it is an opinion.

[D3BBALL]

I'm going to be honest, Cuevas is great but not PoTY great. I value winning. I don't care what other metrics go into it. I'd take any tufts, trin, or Wesleyan guard over him if I have the #1 spot on a re-draft.

This coming from a former player who has played against all of these players except Cuevas.

[D3BBALL]

In a year with no clear cut PoTY... go with the dude on the 2nd placed team averaging a double double and top 5 in nearly every statistical category. But but.. what about Pohlman? Wesleyan's honor should be with coach of the year. Trinity lost to tufts and Wes, so screw them across the board. Bronze medal.

Scott Gyimesi is the best player in the league. Not his fault his coach blew the game against Wesleyan.

Now to give Coach Linton credit he is by far the best looking coach in the league. And if Trinity didn't exist he'd maybe have 2 nescac titles already.

They way Gyimesi has played the last few games he could easily be POY. I think he like Vetter gave up stats (scoring) their senior year to make their teams better.

[D3BBALL]

I have no issue with Cuevas but the more time goes by the more strongly I feel about Vetter POY. We can pretend like that Trinity team is absolutely loaded with offensive talent but it really isn't. Ayles and Davis are nice role players but nothing more yet. We talk Lazarre up a lot and he's probably worthy of a 2nd team all league spot but that is more defense than offense. Neither he or Okorougo make anyone better offensively or really make the defense work. Vetter is the straw that stirs the drink offensively, sets their entire tone as a leader, etc, two year captain. Has the ball in his hands at the end of the game and is the most likely to come through (see: national championship winning 3 with 10 seconds remaining)

He is my POY and it really has nothing to do with Cuevas or anyone else. I just think he is the most deserving and the best player

Vetter and Gyimesi makes their teams better and have given up scoring to do so. Still like Pohlman, but your point is very valid.

[Stickthe3]

Great insight all around on this.

I think Gyimesi is the front runner and deservedly so.

If Cuevas was to win, it would be 2nd time in conference history that the player of the year was from a team that didn't finish 1st or 2nd (or at least tied for that place) in the standings. Someone can fact check me on that.

I also think the players in contention for Trinity and Wesleyan could ultimately split votes.

There has never been a Player of The Year who's team finished worse than 7-3 and 3rd in the league since they've been tracking it from 2001.  The fewest wins was back in 2001 when Sam Clark was Player of the Year for a Colby team that went 6-3 in league play and was the 2nd seed (Trinity finished in 1st at 6-3 also).  So judging by history, team success most certainly is accounted for by the coaches.

Furthering the point, no sophomore has EVER won POTY and only 6 times has a junior won it (Andrew Olson in 2007, Aaron Toomey in 2013, Lucas Hausman in 2015 and then James Heskett, Kena Gilmore and Luke Rogers in 2018, 2019 and 2020, respectively).

I agree with jumbo - Cuevas is great but not POTY great (not this year at least).

[D3BALL13]

This is a very tough year for POTY in the NESCAC...

There are a few different scenarios and I wouldn't be too mad at any of them.

Wesleyan (Two guys): We have Pohlman and Wolinski, who have both been very good on the NUMBER 1 (!!) team in the NESCAC. Pohlman averaging 13, 6, and 6, while Wolinski is averaging 18 ppg on pretty good splits. We have to remember Wesleyan lost two All Americans from last years squad after making it to the final four. They weren't expected to be top 3 in the NESCAC this year, let alone the 1 seed!!! Either of them would be worthy after what they have been able to accomplish, but I would probably go with Pohlman out of those two. Is this also a situation where it was more coaching > players? Reiley should be a lock for COTY.

Tufts (One guy): However the voting ends up getting decided, Gyimesi should be top two. Tufts was going to be good regardless, but the load Gyimesi has had to carry after basically losing their top scorer even though he is on the squad (Morakis) is pretty impressive. He is the clear go to guy on the second team in the conference and is basically averaging a double double (17 and 10).

Trinity (Two guys): Vetter and Okorougo, who are two very good players and all americans in my opinion. With that being said, they brought back their three best players from their championship team last year and were ranked 1 in the country, and ended with the 3 seed in the conference. Yes, I know the NESCAC is elite, but if you had those expectations coming into the year and end up losing to the 1 and 2 seed, who also have players in the running and are deserving for the POTY then I am not sure how either of them could get it. On top of that, Vetter averages 13, 4, and 3, which I know how Cosgrove does his rotaitions but those just simply aren't POTY numbers. I know Vetter would average 20 on Bowdoin so please no one mention that lol. Okorougo averages 16 and 6 and is an elite defender, so he would be ahead of Vetter for me. Both of these guys would be in the 2-6 range in the voting for me.

Bowdoin (One guy): Cuevas, Cuevas, Cuevas, the topic of the hour. This guy is undoubtably a top 3 talent in the conference and has carried this team most of the year as a sophomore. It is a tricky situation and I totally understand not wanting him to win POTY and vice versa. Would I be mad if he won it this year? No because he has been unbelievebale and is averaging 22, 4, and 3 on 48% FG, 45% from 3 which is unreal, and over 80% from the line. I mean those are crazy stats for a guy on a mid team that has the defenses mainly prepping for him every game. I don't think he will win it because he is young and they will use the logic of he has other chances, which I am not a fan of. In a year with no clear POTY, I don't think you could be mad at him getting it.

With all that being said, I am still not sure who I would go with. I would say either Gyimesi or Cuevas but it is tough this year, obviously.

[midranger]

We really are talking in circles here. For one, I have played against all of these players multiple times, including jumbomumbo. That doesn't make my opinion any more valid than anyone else's on these boards, but mumbo isn't some insider with more information than me.

I think mumbo and others make a strong case for Gyimesi. Of the top teams, Tufts is the only one with a clear best player who makes the engine go. They are second in the league with a win over Trinity and if Gyimesi has an off day, Tufts is in trouble. The same cannot be said about the other candidates who have elite sidekicks.

I still stand by the fact that Cuevas is the best player in the league and if Bowdoin got to 6 or 7 wins, he would be a no brainer. I haven't seen any of the Cuevas deniers address a key distinction which is the level of defensive attention that he receives. As a result of his special offensive capabilities and his teammates relative mediocrity, Cuevas is keyed on and usually double-teamed most games yet still finds a way to produce. None of the other candidates received close to this level of defensive attention. I know because my team scouted all of them. Alas, defensive attention is not a metric I would use to decide POTY, but I think it highlights that Cuevas is a step above the rest when we are talking about the 'best player.'

I would be happy with any of the candidates that have been named besides Pohlman. He has had an incredible season and the trajectory of his career has been impressive. However, his most notable stats are his assists, and as has been mentioned earlier, those numbers were massively exaggerated in all of Wesleyan's home games. My team used to always joke when we played at Wesleyan we would try to buff our assist numbers--the inflation is real. I think it would be tough to argue that Pohlman is the best guard on his team, let alone in the league. He has been excellent this year, and this isn't a knock. I mean to compliment Wesleyan's well-roundedness.

This will probably be my last post on POTY debate. It's a unique year in that I could see 5 guys realistically winning it. I'm excited for it to release. At the very least, it will spark some more interesting debate. Best of luck to the teams competing this weekend and hopefully we get 5 teams in the NCAA.

[nescac1]

Great story on a NESCAC hoops fan many of us know:

https://williamsrecord.com/471814/sports/doug-pickard-71-the-court-godfathers-position-on-mens-basketball/

Agree that it is a very tough year for POTY in NESCAC - I don't think there has ever been SIX legitimate candidates like there are this year.  Usually there is an obvious choice or a two-man race.  Partially because no one or two guys had a truly transcendent, first-team all-American (or close) sort of year where there would be the obvious choice.  But also because the depth of strong talent who have been doing it for years at the top of the conference is very strong (I think all six candidates could conceivably make their way onto one of the five all-American teams depending on how the post-season goes). 

The top three teams are all very deep, veteran-heavy teams with a lot of balance. That's why there is no clearly correct answer in this debate! Gyimesi would certainly be a defensible choice given that Tufts only has one candidate and he's been elite for three years running now, but at the same time, in league play he was only tenth in the league in scoring, which is a knock against him compared to some of the other candidates.  Again, no perfect choice.   

2001, the year Clark won, mentioned earlier, was probably the last time there were so many defensible candidates (pretty much the entire first team had a case, including Leo Jones, one of the least-mentioned all-time great NESCAC guys). 

(Edit - wrote this before reading midranger's post - more great perspective!)