MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Congrats to Mike Vuckovic upon being named CCIW POW for the second time this season.

[Green Beer]

IWU played poorly, stupidly at Elmhurst.

IWU'70

After that final sequence, my wife is like "why didn't they just lob it in to Noah?" I can only shrug on that one. There's a reason I'm not a coach (several reasons), but gosh (using nice language) I would've drawn up a play to get it into Noah's hands.

...and that total rookie technical...

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ Then, 24 hours later, Greenville plays at Elmhurst. Maybe not as much fun to watch, though.

48 hours?

Oh, right. My bad.

[Greek Tragedy]

IWU played poorly, stupidly at Elmhurst.

IWU'70

After that final sequence, my wife is like "why didn't they just lob it in to Noah?" I can only shrug on that one. There's a reason I'm not a coach (several reasons), but gosh (using nice language) I would've drawn up a play to get it into Noah's hands.

...and that total rookie technical...

I don't know what the play was, but Noah was just 4-10 from the line.

[Gregory Sager]

North Park 138
Greenville 117

Marquis Vance: 32 pts (15-17 FG), 3 stls
Mike Vuckovic: 27 pts (11-18 FG), 3 stls
Jerome Smith: 18 pts, 6 rebs, 9 asts, 3 stls
Kolden Vanlandingham: 17 pts (7-8 FG, 3-4 trey), 8 rebs, 4 asts
Tyvin Garrison: 11 pts, 7 rebs
William Bates: 11 pts (5-7 FG), 4 asts

With the Vikings banged up (three rotation players out with injuries), I was a little worried that the Park might get worn down by the frenetic pace of a System game. Not to worry. The Vikings broke the school records for most points (previous high 126 vs. Bishop in 1986-87), most made FGs (55, breaking the old record of 51 set against Greenville in 2021), and most assists (39, previous high 35 vs. Rust in 1989-90).

It wasn't the typical game against the System. The Vikings didn't pass up trey attempts, which System opponents often do so that they can maximize their layups and avoid empty possessions. And this Panthers team doesn't hesistate to drive to the basket with a lot of frequency, contrary to System tradition. But the Vikings did well enough from downtown (9-25, .360) to make it worth their while to take those shots -- and they still shot .647 from the field as a whole, the sixth-best overall FG percentage in program history, so they weren't seriously damaged by all of those trey attempts. I'm particularly happy that the Vikings were essentially a wash with Greenville in the steals and turnover departments; NPU's a:to ratio was 1.63, which is outstanding against a System team.

Marquis Vance became the third Viking in program history, alongside Roshawn Russell (2008-09) and Juwan Henry (2013-14), to score 30+ in a game as a freshman. He and his fellow Killer V's Mike Vuckovic and Kolden Vanlandingham are only the second trio of Vikings to each score 30+ in a game in the same season; North Park All-Americans Michael Harper, Modzel Greer, and Michael Thomas did it in the second year of the threepeat (1978-79), and that's pretty darned good company to be in.

Best of all (aside from the win, of course) was the fact that Vance was the only Vikings starter to play more than 19 minutes today. And he only played 23. I don't think that Ed McGhee was looking for his team to break any school records; he just wanted to keep his starters healthy and give some newbies a chance to see the floor for the first time. In fact, Trey Vanlandingham got more minutes for the Vikings today than his big brother Kolden did. And Trey, along with fellow frosh Harrison Long, scored his first career points. I was especially happy to see junior guard Caleb Newman splash a trey in the final minute for his first varsity points after toiling in anonymity on the North Park JV team for two seasons.

John Baines and the entire Elmhurst team were in the gym today (I gave them a shoutout on the air, since they constituted over half of the attendees in the sparsely-populated crackerbox; nobody's going to set attendance records on a super-cold day when the game is scheduled for a weekday afternoon tipoff and the home team's school is on Christmas break.) I'll be curious to see how the Bluejays fare against Greenville on Wednesday, and how Millikin deals with the Panthers on Friday. This is definitely a busy and challenging week for George Barber and his team.

I felt that my voice held up pretty well. Now I'm gonna watch the game on CCIW Network and count up all of my on-air mistakes.

[iwu70]

No CCIW team in the top 25, new poll.  IWU dropping out, now ORVs.  Can we say the CCIW is "down" this year?   

Yes, IWU should have gotten off a shot with 11 seconds remaining, either getting it in the paint to Cleveland, or putting the ball in Funk's hands to make a play.  Poor shooting all game, and truly stupid play at the end.  Yes, Cleveland's poor FT shooting can also be a problem.  So many things for the Titans to clean up if they want to be a top 25 team this season.

A very tough challenge on Thursday at # 4 Wash U in St. Louis.

IWU'70

[Gregory Sager]

No CCIW team in the top 25, new poll.  IWU dropping out, now ORVs.  Can we say the CCIW is "down" this year?

Well, you can say it if you'd like, Mark ... but you'd be wrong, IMO. I'm 100% on board with Mike Schauer's assessment of the league in his postgame interview after the Elmhurst @ Wheaton game, which is that the CCIW is strong this season, top to bottom. And being strong, top to bottom, is the only legitimate kind of strength there is. If your seventh, eighth, and ninth teams aren't threatening people, then your league lacks the depth to be considered strong. The league's non-conference winning percentage is .635, which is modest by CCIW standards, but look at who the CCIW is playing, for crying out loud. Only two games thus far against the weak sister of the region, the SLIAC (it will be four by the end of the week, of course, since as I mentioned earlier today Elmhurst and Millikin have upcoming dates with Greenville this week), and fourteen games -- by far the most among CCIW teams against any other league -- against the 500-pound state-school gorilla north of the border. You can't play over a quarter of your non-conference games against the WIAC and expect to have a good non-con record.

The CCIW may continue the December trend and end up cannibalizing itself because of parity, ruining the chance for multiple CCIW programs to make it to the dance ... but on the flip side, that would mean a bushelful of great basketball games in January and February in-house within our circuit, and I'm here for that!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It really depends on what's meant by "down."  I was surprised to see Wheaton as the lowest team in the d3databast conference analysis yesterday, because that's a very strong team.  No way the conference can be truly "down" if that's the weakest team.  At the same time, what appears to be the best teams on paper, IWU and Carthage, can't seem to win games you'd expect them to win - and it's going to be tough to get a lot of at-large consideration.

There are a lot of games to play, though.

[Gregory Sager]

It really depends on what's meant by "down."  I was surprised to see Wheaton as the lowest team in the d3databast conference analysis yesterday, because that's a very strong team.  No way the conference can be truly "down" if that's the weakest team.  At the same time, what appears to be the best teams on paper, IWU and Carthage, can't seem to win games you'd expect them to win - and it's going to be tough to get a lot of at-large consideration.

Completely and utterly disagree with you on this one, Ryan. The fact that Carthage and Illinois Wesleyan are not separating themselves from everyone else in CCIW play is a feature, not a bug, in terms of assessing the league's strength. Perhaps your problem here is that you're overestimating the need to cling to your preseason expectations where those two teams are concerned relative to the CCIW pecking order.

Sure, Carthage brought everyone important back from a very good 2024-25 Firebirds team, plus they reacquired Antuan Nesbitt from his injury hiatus. The Firebirds are admittedly a surprise at a pedestrian 5-4. But I suspect that their trouncing of Wheaton in their most recent game is a sign that they're coming around. As for IWU, I think that you (and a lot of other D3 MBB national onlookers) buy into the Titans hype too much. A close examination of that roster would've revealed that the Titans returned a grand total of one rotation player who shot better than a paltry .317 from downtown last year -- and that one rotation player is in street clothes now. (Ironically, the .317 shooter from last season, Mason Funk, is the only Titan who has made treys with any regularity this season.)

And as for those two schools not winning out-of-conference games that you'd expect them to win ... well, UW-Stout's win over IWU is really the only egregious example of that. I wouldn't say that Carthage's two losses at the Great Lakes Invitational were major upsets, especially when you look at them in retrospect: Maryville is 9-2, with losses only to W&J on the home floor of the Presidents and to UW-Oshkosh at Kolf, and Mary Washington is undefeated at 9-0.

As for at-large consideration, the far bigger concern than what has happened to date (unless you're Carthage) is cannibalization in January and February. While it's true that the CCIW has a tendency to sort itself out by having the cream rise to the top and separate from the pack in January, that's not a given. There have also been seasons like 2017-18, in which the four teams atop the standings were separated from each other by only two games. This could very well be a season like that rather than a season that reverts to the usual form, and if it is this could very well be a one-bid league and we'll just have to learn to live with that. As I said last night, at least it would mean that we'd see a lot of great, hard-fought CCIW nailbiters between now and then.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I was trying to make the case both ways.  I tend to favor not being down, because every team is really good - but that's certainly not the only way to look at it, especially if you prioritize national titles.  That's looking less likely now than it did a month ago.

[iwu70]

I was just asking the question.  Seems IWU and Carthage are "down," at least in terms of the expectations earlier.  I tend to think the CCIW is down this year . . . and time will tell.  Will any other CCIW teams rise into the top 25?

Thanks for all the analysis and assessments.  Much appreciated.

An IWU win @ #4 Wash U would certainly be nice.

Heading for Ratner now for the IWU women's game tonight. 

Happy Holidays to all the CCIW chatsters.

IWU'70

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

North Park might be the best CCIW right now.  They're very capable of being a Top 25 team.  If Elmhurst plays consistently the way they did against IWU, I think they have the talent to be there, too.  It's a really good league.  Wheaton could make the Sweet Sixteen under the right conditions.  I think the ceiling for any team in the league is entirely up to them at this point.

[Gregory Sager]

I was trying to make the case both ways.  I tend to favor not being down, because every team is really good - but that's certainly not the only way to look at it, especially if you prioritize national titles.  That's looking less likely now than it did a month ago.

Yeah, but I'd say that those are two completely different things. A strong league has really good teams from top to bottom. But national championship hopes don't necessarily belong only to teams from strong leagues. Take Christopher Newport, for example -- or the classic examples from yesteryear of Calvin and Hope, or Wooster and Wittenberg, perennial national championship contenders from leagues in which everybody else was little more than a January and February punching bag for the big two at the top. Sure, it helps your chances to climb the stepladder and cut down the net after the final game of the season if you're from a power conference, because you're entering the national tournament battle-tested. But it's certainly not impossible to seize the Big Doorstop after entering the tourney bracket from outside of a power conference -- and, conversely, as you implied it becomes more difficult for a power conference to win the title if it's only getting one team into the dance because of cannibalization.

I was just asking the question.  Seems IWU and Carthage are "down," at least in terms of the expectations earlier.  I tend to think the CCIW is down this year . . . and time will tell.

Yes, Mark, but, with all due respect, in gaming language you tend to look at the Titans as the only playable character and the other eight teams as NPCs. Just how much have you watched the other eight CCIW teams this season? Have you seen any of them at all, apart from the three CCIW games that your alma mater has played? Heck, how many players from other teams can you even name? (And, no, I'm not asking you to spell "Vanlandingham" or "VanderWoude" or "Swierczek" or, God forbid, "Adjahoungbeta". ) In other words, I'm not convinced that you will ever believe that the CCIW is strong if Illinois Wesleyan is not playing a dominant role within it.

[Gregory Sager]

North Park might be the best CCIW right now.  They're very capable of being a Top 25 team.  If Elmhurst plays consistently the way they did against IWU, I think they have the talent to be there, too.  It's a really good league.  Wheaton could make the Sweet Sixteen under the right conditions.  I think the ceiling for any team in the league is entirely up to them at this point.

Totally agree with your last sentence. As for the rest, those are reasonable mid-December observations. As the years have gone by I've become less of a "preseason assessments" sort of fan and more of an "organic in-season developments" type. That's not to say that you're going to be a winner if you don't have the necessary talent on hand as the basic ingredient, of course, but I've come to realize that there's an awful lot of growth or decline that can take place over the course of the campaign that can completely change everything. The possibility that North Park and/or Wheaton could grow into becoming something far better than what people expected at season's outset is a good example of that, because NPU is a team mostly made up of disparate parts that weren't wearing Vikings unis last season and Wheaton is just so ridiculously young. Elmhurst fits this model, too, because, having watched the Bluejays a bunch this season already, they seem to me to be a great example of a team that's better than the sum of its parts. They might end up becoming a real testament to John Baines's coaching acumen.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

With the way d3 teams can attract talent these days, it's pretty common to watch 100 or 150 teams and say, "that team's good enough to win the title."  There's a huge gap between that and actually getting there, though - that comes down to practice, coaching, chemistry, and a host of other things.  The ability of a program to maximize those "other things" is the whole game these days.

When I started following d3hoops, it was much more about getting the best players in the building.  Now, everybody has good players (or at least a sizeable percentage of teams do).  It's a whole different ballgame.