MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ziggy]

OK;  Very sage advice to our new poster.   That is why the following quote from Sac:   "Flawed maybe, but I also don't always think the best teams always go the furthest in the playoffs, and just because a team went far in the playoffs does not necessarily make them great."    took me a little off gaurd.  Sac:  Guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.  Perhaps it is my character flaw from watching to many Nascar races where it doesn't matter: where you started, your lap times or laps lead, number of cars passed etc. etc. etc.: it only matters where you were when the checkered flag was waved.

I don't mean to speak for sac, but I think he was playing the fantasy game of "who would win if this team played that team".  Under those circumstances you can argue one team being better than the other without having to consider end accomplishments.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

OK;  Very sage advice to our new poster.   That is why the following quote from Sac:   "Flawed maybe, but I also don't always think the best teams always go the furthest in the playoffs, and just because a team went far in the playoffs does not necessarily make them great."    took me a little off gaurd.  Sac:  Guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.  Perhaps it is my character flaw from watching to many Nascar races where it doesn't matter: where you started, your lap times or laps lead, number of cars passed etc. etc. etc.: it only matters where you were when the checkered flag was waved.

I can argue both sides of this one.  

The realist side:  If you win it all, you have to be one of the best - period.  Like the analogy given, it's all about how you finish that matters.  If you beat the teams you have to face, how can you be "less great" than a team that didn't accomplish as much

The sac side:  So a great team looses one game (in the NCAAs).  They lost because of whatever (played one really bad game, played good but against a team that couldn't miss, the moons of Jupiter were mis-aligned).  Does that one loss mean every team that went further is better?  Remember Villanova - shot 80 some percent to win the national championship.  Are they thus better than any team that never won it all?  

And as ziggy points out, we can't play games between teams of different era's (you can't determine the winnner of a NASCAR race between Jeff Gordon and Richard Petty in their prime with the same rules & equipment).  It's really the same arguement you get with the BCS (whose better, without them ever playing each other).

[calvin_grad]

It's really the same arguement you get with the BCS (whose better, without them ever playing each other).

sac's rankings are used in the BCS?     Didn't know his influence reached that far.

Keep 'em coming, sac.  These are what message boards and posting are all about ...  FUN arguments about BASKETBALL.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

It's really the same arguement you get with the BCS (whose better, without them ever playing each other).

sac's rankings are used in the BCS?     Didn't know his influence reached that far.

Keep 'em coming, sac.  These are what message boards and posting are all about ...  FUN arguments about BASKETBALL.

Sorry sac - I never should have brought up the BCS.  I wouldn't want to connect my worst enemy to the BCS - that's worse than just about anything I can think of (accept losing to Calvin)

[CalvinChelseaMom]

GK68:  Sac pointed out early on that post season success is no indicator of how a team will finsih in the final standings, and using #8 & #7 this is obvious.  IMHO this is a fundamental flaw in the criteria used to come up with the rankings.  However, it is very interesting reading, and I applaud Sac for putting in the time and effort to provide this material for us.   It has been enjoyable recalling some of the games, and players.

Oh no worries.  I applaud SAC for what he is doing also.  I didn't really get a chance to read the explanation of how he decides the rankings.

Yes, SAC.  Thanks for pulling all of this information together.  I've only checked in a few times this summer, and frankly, it wasn't very fun.  Thanks for getting us back on track.  Hope you're enjoying the off-season.

You know, I read all the posts about karma over the last number of weeks and thought, "What's the big deal about karma?"  It is a little mind-boggling though how I can lose karma over the above post.  My gosh, someone needs to get a life.

[goodknight]

It's really the same arguement you get with the BCS (whose better, without them ever playing each other).

sac's rankings are used in the BCS?     Didn't know his influence reached that far.

Keep 'em coming, sac.  These are what message boards and posting are all about ...  FUN arguments about BASKETBALL.

Sorry sac - I never should have brought up the BCS.  I wouldn't want to connect my worst enemy to the BCS - that's worse than just about anything I can think of (accept losing to Calvin)

FDF:
It's a sign of maturity that you can accept losing to Calvin.
Plus K for U.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

It's really the same arguement you get with the BCS (whose better, without them ever playing each other).

sac's rankings are used in the BCS?     Didn't know his influence reached that far.

Keep 'em coming, sac.  These are what message boards and posting are all about ...  FUN arguments about BASKETBALL.

Sorry sac - I never should have brought up the BCS.  I wouldn't want to connect my worst enemy to the BCS - that's worse than just about anything I can think of (accept losing to Calvin)

FDF:
It's a sign of maturity that you can accept losing to Calvin.
Plus K for U.

Freudian slip -accepting that is the worst thing I can think of.   

It's either a sign of maturity - or an indication that old age in which time seems to fly, so while the sting of losing to Calvin is still there, it seems like the next day you get to play them again.   Of course last year there was a weekly Hope/Calvin game, wasn't there?

[Pat Coleman]

Hey -- in an effort to avoid being a lightning rod to the board I didn't post this before but I'm enjoying sac's rundown as well. Might have to borrow the idea for our own 10th anniversary package.

But if he posts an All-MIAA team of the past 10 years, well, just want to have that on the record as something we're doing nationally as well.

[sac]

I was thinking of doing a top10 individual players or individual seasons.  But I don't have individuals rated for the last 4 years.  Wouldn't take much effort to complete, just something I gave up tracking 3 or 4 years ago.

[sac]

#6  1998 Hope

26-5, 10-2  MIAA Champion, NCAA Runner-up

Roster

Joel Holstege, Dan VanHekken, David Meuhlenberg, Kris Merritt, Pat Stegeman, Chris VanderSlice, Josh Canan, Kyle Phelps, Kevin Van Timmeren
(No starting 5 available)


The 1998 season began with a 4 point loss to NAIA II defending National Champion Bethel College.  This Bethel team would go on to win a 2nd straight National Championship.

Hope fans probably knew this team would be special after the Hall of Fame Classic victories over solid Cornerstone and Division II Grand Valley State teams.   Hope would win the rest of their non-conference all by double-digits except for one, Cornerstone.  Wheaton, North Park, Aquinas all proved to be relatively easy wins.    Hope was ready to make a run at a 4th straight MIAA Championship.

An early scare from Olivet proved to be a blip, as Hope won their next two by double-digits over Kalamazoo and Albion.  Now it was time for Calvin.  The Knights were going through a transition, 2nd year coach Kevin VandeStreak was trying to establish his mark on the program, his 98 team was talented but young.  They were just 7-6 on the season entering the Hope game.  Meanwhile Hope was enjoying one of its longest runs of success against their rivals with 8 straight wins, the next would set their school record.    Hope would win the first showdown 87-85 in OT, the game would be known for Hope Sr. David Meuhlenberg's 36 point performance where he was perfect from the floor and the stripe.  Hope needed every single one of those points.

By the midpoint of the MIAA season  Hope had a 2 game lead in the conference.  Another close win over Olivet followed by a 2nd double-digit win over Albion put Hope at 19-1.  Surely Dutchmen fans were dreaming of another trip to Salem, Virginia.

The turning point of the season came in a midweek practice,  David Meuhlenberg had broken his foot in practice, he was done for the season.  The Dutchmen were crushed mentally.  The following game Hope lost to an under .500 Kalamazoo by 13, ending a winning streak of 27 games vs MIAA opponents.   There was hope the Dutchmen had shrugged off the loss of their star forward with an 11 point win and 10th in a row over Calvin.  But just 4 days later Hope would suffer a rare loss at Alma by 1.   Hope won its final two games of the MIAA season comfortably winning a 4th straight MIAA Championship outright.

Hope would beat Adrian in the MIAA semi-finals by 12, just a week earlier they had beat them by 30.   Albion would win the MIAA Tournament with a stunning 59-58 win, the Brits were in the tournament for the first time in almost 20 years.   Hope was left wondering what had happened.

Hope had gone just 3-3  in their last 6 yet managed a top seed in the NCAA tournament.   Deep runs in 96 and 97 had fueled an appetite for another deep run.  In round 2 it was back on-campus to the Dow Center and Allegheny who had upset Baldwin-Wallace in round one.  Hope would win easily 80-66.

An upset of Wooster by John Carroll meant Hope would get to host a Sectional in Holland.  Christopher-Newport, Hampden-Sydney and John Carroll would join the Dutchmen.   Hope would meet once beaten Christopher-Newport and would put on a first half performance rarely matched.  Led by the outside shooting of Josh Canan, Kyle Phelps, Dan VanHekken and Joel Holstege Hope held a 30 point lead at the break, and would cruise to the 81-64 victory.    In the quarters it was John Carroll and again a big first half put Hope in control and they would celebrate an 84-66 win and they were on their way to Salem again.

In Salem Hope met overmatched Wilkes, Pa.  As had been the m.o. in their previous tournament games, Hope used solid defense and terrific outside shooting to blowout the Colonels 81-61 in a game that never seemed that close.   The game provided a great moment for Hope fans when an injury would allow David Meuhlenberg to hobble onto the court one last time to shoot a pair of freethrows.  The 1200 or so Hope fans who made the trip were treated to one special moment.

In the Championship Hope would meet Bo Ryan and undefeated UW-Platteville.  Ryan was building a powerhouse in Platteville built on solid defense, Leading the nation with a stunning 52 points per game average.  For the first time in the tournament Hope looked smaller than their opponents.  UWP put the clamps on the Dutchmen early, a first half struggle shooting put Hope in a hole they couldn't recover from.  UWP would win its first of back-to-back NCAA Championships 69-56.


Notes:   This was one really good basketball team, untill the injury to David Meuhlenberg.  Who knows if Hope could have gone as far as they did without the motivation from the injury.   It probably wouldn't have made a difference against Platteville.  That, to this day is the best D3 team I've seen in person.  They were strong, quick and could just lock down any opponent at will.

The break this Hope team got in the tournament was John Carroll beating Wooster, otherwise they'd have had to travel to Wooster in the Sectionals.  There was no doubt playing in Holland was a huge advantage, and it remains a great memory to see your team celebrate going to the final four at home.    Allegheny beating Baldwin-Wallace didn't hurt either.

1998 ended a 4 year string rarely matched in MIAA history.  Hope won 4 outright MIAA Championships, 3 MIAA Tournament Championships, went undefeated in 1995, National Runner-up in 1996 and 1998, and the Sweet 16 in 1997 losing to runner-up Nebraska Wesleyan.  Hope went 105-14, with a 53-5 record against MIAA opponents in these 4 years, including 10-0 vs Calvin.  It seemed only appropriate that the 98 team found a way to finish the season on the floor in Salem against the odds.  No one outside the lockeroom believed they could do it without Meuhlenberg.

This team would rate higher, as maybe they should, without the late season losses to Kzoo, Alma and Albion.  Without those losses and the same tournament run, this team would be right up there fighting for the top ranking.  Hope just wore teams out with their depth this season, and won most games rather comfortably.  The tournament run was one for the books, the margins were staggering by tournament standards.  I have seen few teams from the Great Lakes Region make it to Salem without being seriously challenged once.

[sac]

#5  2007 Hope

26-5, 13-1  MIAA Champion, NCAA Quarterfinal, Final D3hoops ranking #5

Starting Lineup

G  Derek VanSolkema
G  Stephen Cramer
C  Scott Richardson
F  Marcus VanderHeide
F  Jesse Reimink

Bench:   Tyler Wolfe, Brett Jager, Tim Partridge, Ryan Klein, Steve Kratz


2007 began a week later than most for Hope.  At the Thanksgiving weekend Hall of Fame Classic Hope opened with an impressive and surprising 80-76 win over Cornerstone.  The win set up a first ever meeting with #8 pre-season Calvin in the annual classic final.   Before 3200, Hope routed the Knights 76-54 on 13-25 shooting from 3 and a first half of 60%.  It was their 4 Hall of Fame Classic title and second in a row.

The impressive weekend rocketed Hope up 9 spots to #5 in the D3hoops poll.  The next weekend took them across Lake Michigan to Carthage and 3rd annual MIAA/CCIW challenge.   Hope would lose both games 71-65 to Carthage, 73-70 to Wheaton.  Hope led late in both games and struggled to score down the stretch.  The results were disappointing, but Hope had gained more from the losses than they would have with wins.  The potential was showing.

Hope would rebound with easy wins in the Holland Sentianl Tournament, a last second 3 by Derek VanSolkema lifted them over rival Aquinas.   Followed by a survival win vs underrated Rochester in the Russ DeVette Tournament put Hope at 8-2 and a more realistic #19.  The potential had been shown, Hope was developing into a fantastic 3 point shooting team with great depth. 

2006's MIAA season was a disappointment, finishing 2nd to Calvin and losing out on the title by a single shot did not sit well.   If anyone doubted Hope's motivation to win the 2007 Championship those fears were put to rest emphaticly and early.  Wins over Kzoo, Olivet and Albion by 32, 27 and 36 were impressive.  Up next was Calvin.  The Knights were young, talented but struggling.  Their MIAA season was already on the ropes with an early loss.

Hope came to Calvin to erase a demon from the year before, a 59-58 loss on a last second shot that ultimately cost them the championship.  It was ironic and yet perfect that the 2007 team would face nearly the same situation.  Up 3, Calvin ball, one last shot, only this time Calvin could not get the shot they wanted and Hope came away with an all important 65-62 win, the  2007 team had already done something the 06 Dutchmen could not do.

The following Wednesday was maybe the finest moment of the year for Hope.  Adrian was 4-0 in the conference, the winner would be in control of the race.  Facing a tough home crowd Hope would smother the Bulldogs 39-12 in the first half and nail the casket shut with an 18-2 run to start the second.   Hope 81-42.

The impressive first half of the MIAA season continued with wins over Alma, TSU and Kzoo by 33, 44 and 38.  Hope had started 8-0 with an average margin of 31.5 points.  By this point in the season Hope was leading Division 3 in 3 point shooting and had climbed all the way back to #6 in the d3hoops poll at 17-2.

The toughest week of the 2007 would start with a rare Monday night game at Albion.  The Britons would prove to be tough that night, erasing some of the bad memories from a 36 point loss 3 weeks earlier.  Quite simply Hope would survive 78-71.  Just 2 days latter the improving Calvin Knights would turn the tables and dominate the Dutchmen in the first half leading by 16.  Despite rallying from 16 down, it was Calvin makeing all the plays down the stretch, Hope would suffer it first ever loss at DeVos Fieldhouse and their first since early December.  The Dutchmen were suddenly vulnerable.  Hope would finish the week with a lackluster win over Adrian that clinched at least a tie for the Championship.  There was no celebration, the Dutchmen looked exhausted.

A comfortable 26 point at Alma clinched the Championship Hope coveted so much, another win at Tri-State gave Hope 13 MIAA wins for the first time.  The impressive MIAA campaign ended with an average margin of victory of 23.9 points, one of the highest ever.

The MIAA tournament came down to another rematch with Calvin, their 4th of the season.  The Knights had just one way into the NCAA's and that was to win the MIAA tournament.  It was another epic clash, similar to the previous meeting with Calvin grabbing the early lead and Hope rallying.  Derek Griffn would score 24, Stephen Cramer 28.   The final tense minutes came down to each team getting a shot to win it, Hope's shot fell short, Derek Griffins running right hander went in and Calvin celebrated a 2nd win at Hope and an MIAA Tournament Championship 78-76.   The loss was tough for Hope to take, their invite to the tournament was now in doubt.

Hope did get that bid, and was sent along with Calvin to Aurora University to face Chicago.  Hope began the tournament ranked #10, some thought they could go far, others thought they'd be the disappointment of the tournament.  Hope would dominate the Maroons 76-54 led by Cramer's 32 points, 27 in the first half it was a monster individual performance.  Calvin would beat Aurora setting up a record fifth season matchup 200 miles from home.

A near sellout of 1800 would see Hope beat the rival Knights 80-64.  After trailing by 7 midway through the first, Hope would dominate the rest of the way reminiscent of the first matchup way back in November.  Stephen Cramer would again lead the way with 26, his career would continue.

In the Sweet 16 Hope was sent to UW-Stevens Point in a group that would include 3 of the top 6 ranked teams at seasons end, and surprising Carroll who had upset 2 top 10 teams enroute.    After falling behind early, Hope would again rally and hold off Carroll 89-77.  It was Cramer again with an outstanding 27, but Marcus Vanderheide turned the game with 16 points and 14 rebounds.  Hope was for the first time in 9 seasons just a game away from Salem.

Washington would prove to be the best team Hope would play in 2007.    A combination of poor shooting and good Washington defense would lead to a 12 point deficit at the half.  Hope would rally to tie, only to see Washington lead by 10 again.  In the end the final rally was just to big a hill to climb, Hope was handed a very distastefull 58-55 loss.  It was a repeat of the previous years exit.



Notes:   A team for my heart.  One of the most enjoyable Hope teams in memory, that just seemed to give 100% from the first tip of the season.  As noted their MIAA run was notable for the shear domination of the victories.  Some of the margins were ridiculous.  Plain and simple this team ranks as high as it does because of those margins.  But defensively this team was up there as well giving up just over 60 in MIAA play.  The 2 early losses to the CCIW teams prevents this team from challenging for the top. 

Stephen Cramer's post season run was one of the best, including his MIAA final 28, he scored over 25 in his final 5 games as a Hope player.  It was  truely amazing to watch and a tremendous testament to his talents.  He will be sorely missed.

This Hope team was a 3point shooting machine, leading D3 for much of the season and setting a Hope record for 3 pointers made.  Rarely have I see a team in D3 that could legitimately put 7 or 8 guys on the floor you were comfortable shooting 3's.

I'm not sure where I'd personally rank this team, perhaps the season is too fresh to really give an objective view and as time passes the relative weakness of the MIAA overall will hurt them.  I'm not sure they were better than 98 or 06.  But for fun and entertainment there were few I enjoyed more than this one.

[sac]

To Review since they've scrolled away.......

#10  2006 Albion
#9    2004 Hope
#8    2005 Calvin
#7    2006 Hope
#6    1998 Hope
#5    2007 Hope

[Pat Coleman]

Adding links to the posts for each:

#10  2006 Albion link
#9    2004 Hope link
#8    2005 Calvin link
#7    2006 Hope link
#6    1998 Hope link
#5    2007 Hope link

Hopefully I got them in the right order.

[HopeConvert]

SAC,

Great job, especially for some of us who weren't there for anything between 1985 and 2004.

I've got the golf itch! Say when.

[hope1]

sac  the team with eric elliot  i think had to be one of the best hope teams when they lost to ohio wesleyan  in triple over time  when scott tedder hit a 3 to beat hope