MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Mr. Ypsi]

My only negative about possibly adding football: having to get used to the football board.

(Overlooked this post at the time.)

Fear not - I follow about a dozen conferences in both football and basketball, and the MIAA boards may be the ONLY ones where conversation is even more civil on the football board!

(Of course, that may just reflect that there is no Hope-Calvin rivalry in football - yet! )

[realist]

GS:  When one talks with people in the admissions area at Calvin the number one reason given for potential students selecting another school over Calvin is cost.  One can make a strong argument that using the "football dollars" to increase financial aid will do as much, and possibly more to attract additional students (than adding football would), as you are appealing to a much larger pool of potential students. 
Out of curiosity I checked the football rosters of various "football schools" in the area to try and locate where former players from the 10 major feeder schools to Calvin are going.  Unless I counted wrong Hope currrently has 7-8 players that attended the major feeder schools to Calvin (Christian Schools).  After that the pickings are slim, and ruling out football scholarship schools, I cannot find enough students to support the claim if Calvin "got" these football players it could either field a decent sized team or justify the expenses associated with starting a football program.  Granted the Calvin campus does have students that played football during their h.s. days, but obviously the lack of football did not impede their attendance.  Perhaps some of these would go out for football if it were available, but the level of commitment might be lower than any coach would want.
The idea of football at Calvin intriques me, but I just can not find sufficient demand from "football players" to justify the costs.  There appears to be a more than adequate supply of "football schools" already, and Calvin adding football might further diminish an already weak MIAA.
Even if one agrees with your concept of football being a revenue "enhancer" unless you attain, and than maintain a critical mass of players it won't reach break even.  Frankly, The Field Of Dreams, approach is hard to prove.

[northb]

Out of curiosity I checked the football rosters of various "football schools" in the area to try and locate where former players from the 10 major feeder schools to Calvin are going.  Unless I counted wrong Hope currrently has 7-8 players that attended the major feeder schools to Calvin (Christian Schools). 

Do I understand this correctly, that the calculation you made was that on Hope's current roster, there are 7-8 players from (Calvin) "feeder schools?"

Wouldn't a more profitable calcuation be to identify where the top players from those schools ended up going, and if they are still playing ball?  Not that I have the time or inclination to do so....

[KnightSlappy]

I think it's safe to say that there are a few former Holland Christian Maroons that would not have ended up at Calvin:

DT - Nathan Brink (RS) Soph. -- Michigan
K - Seth Broekhuizen (RS) Soph. -- Michigan
QB - AJ Westendorp (RS) Soph. -- Central Michigan
QB - Kirk Cousins (RS) Senior -- Michigan State

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Do I understand this correctly, that the calculation you made was that on Hope's current roster, there are 7-8 players from (Calvin) "feeder schools?"

Wouldn't a more profitable calcuation be to identify where the top players from those schools ended up going, and if they are still playing ball?  Not that I have the time or inclination to do so....

I wouldn't assume those "Christian school kids" on Hope's (or any other schools) roster would automatically go to Clavin if they had football.  Hope's soccer rosters (both men and women) each have 4 of those kids - so the choice is not soley due to the sport being offered.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't have a dog in this fight -- whether Calvin adds football or not is no skin off my nose -- but I'll respond for the sake of keeping an interesting discussion alive.

GS:  When one talks with people in the admissions area at Calvin the number one reason given for potential students selecting another school over Calvin is cost.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. My nephew is a Calvin student, and the tuition bill that my brother has to pay to send him there may mean that none of his siblings are able to join him.

One can make a strong argument that using the "football dollars" to increase financial aid will do as much, and possibly more to attract additional students (than adding football would), as you are appealing to a much larger pool of potential students.

This assumes a fungibility with regard to Calvin's monies that I'm not sure exists. We all tend to look at endowments and think of them as static lumps of money, but in reality a large proportion of the monies within endowment funds at just about every institution of higher learning are specifically earmarked by the donors for various aspects of the school. In other words, you can't necessarily shift athletic monies over to financial aid, or vice-versa. I don't have a working knowledge of Calvin's financial situation in specific, but that's typically how things operate in higher education.

More importantly, this is a common-sense issue. The enrollment problem at Calvin is so acute that I've heard administrators from other D3 schools talk about it. Given that the enrollment slide has been taking place for several years now, it stands to reason that Calvin has already approached the idea of maximizing the amount of financial aid money it can offer. My impression of the Calvin people I know is that they're generally smart people who know what they're doing, and I can't see why this wouldn't apply to the people who run the school as well.

Out of curiosity I checked the football rosters of various "football schools" in the area to try and locate where former players from the 10 major feeder schools to Calvin are going.  Unless I counted wrong Hope currrently has 7-8 players that attended the major feeder schools to Calvin (Christian Schools).  After that the pickings are slim, and ruling out football scholarship schools, I cannot find enough students to support the claim if Calvin "got" these football players it could either field a decent sized team or justify the expenses associated with starting a football program.

I agree that it's unrealistic to expect to build a football program exclusively out of students from Calvin's feeder high schools, although northb is right that ascertaining the number of college football players who hail from Christian high schools in western Michigan merits further examination than merely scoping out the Hope and Kalamazoo football rosters. Again, though, I believe that the Calvin committee that's looking into the possibility of adding football is smarter than that -- as would be any head football coach or football recruiting coordinator that Calvin would hire. Every college football coach in America has enough common sense to know that you have to cast your net for prospects much, much wider than a mere ten high schools.

Granted the Calvin campus does have students that played football during their h.s. days, but obviously the lack of football did not impede their attendance.  Perhaps some of these would go out for football if it were available, but the level of commitment might be lower than any coach would want.

Calvin would not build a program out of former high school football players who are currently enrolled at Calvin. That's not how it works. When you start a new athletic program, you hire a coach and give him a year to recruit his or her own student-athletes before you have that new team take the field (or the court, or the pitch, or whatever).

The idea of football at Calvin intriques me, but I just can not find sufficient demand from "football players" to justify the costs.

Who are these "football players" to whom you refer? Are you speaking of the aforementioned ex-gridders who are current Calvin students? Again, I doubt that the powers-that-be at Calvin are dumb enough to make such a momentous and resource-intensive decision based upon the grousings of a handful of former football jocks currently on campus who would almost certainly never get the chance to suit up in maroon-and-gold football unis for the Knights, anyway.

There appears to be a more than adequate supply of "football schools" already, and Calvin adding football might further diminish an already weak MIAA.

Calvin needs to make decisions based upon what's best for Calvin, not upon what's best for Alma or Adrian or (gulp!) Hope.

Even if one agrees with your concept of football being a revenue "enhancer" unless you attain, and than maintain a critical mass of players it won't reach break even.  Frankly, The Field Of Dreams, approach is hard to prove.

The "criticial mass" has been attained by every D3 school that's added football in recent years. The folks at d3football.com -- Pat Coleman, Keith Hamilton, and others -- have addressed the adding-football issue in at least a couple of articles that I've read on the site, maybe more. There's more evidence out there than you think there is. Of all the D3 schools that have added football in recent years, I can't think of a single one that's second-guessed itself and dropped the program.

Pat's much more attuned to the comings and goings of D3 football programs than I am, but I know that the current count -- 239 D3 schools have varsity football programs -- is definitely higher than it was ten, fifteen years ago. He may be able to think of other examples of D3 schools that have dropped football over that time span that I can't, but the only one that comes to my mind is Swarthmore -- and Swarthmore, a school whose endowment is one and a quarter billion dollars, dropped football not because of finances but because of the college's ethos and proclaimed values.

[KnightSlappy]

I seem to recall Principia dropping football a few years back for money reasons. Can't find the d3football article right now, but I don't have that much time to look at the moment.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I seem to recall Principia dropping football a few years back for money reasons. Can't find the d3football article right now, but I don't have that much time to look at the moment.

KS - you're right that Principia dropped football, but according to this article it wasn't a money issue - rather it was due to the size of the team (they refer to possibly reinstating when they get back to 35-40 players) as well as competitiveness & protecting their athletes.

http://principiapilot.org/2009/02/06/football-suspended/

[Pat Coleman]

I believe there are six programs dropped in the past dozen years, and about four times as many added.

Swarthmore -- for the reasons Greg posted above. I was just re-reading our coverage the other day and they basically decided they had too many student-athletes on campus for a so-called academic elite institution.
Mass-Boston -- Lack of student-athletes, lack of competitiveness. As a large state school, enrollment was not an issue.
New Jersey City -- See Mass-Boston.
Principia -- Small recruiting pool due to the nature of the institution (Christian Scientist).
Blackburn -- Lack of student-athletes, lack of competitiveness.
Colorado College -- Too expensive to maintain Mountain Time Zone's only Division III football program.

[hoopdreams]

Wondering if any diehard Hope fans can enlighten us to Will Bowser's condition.  On his teams Facebook page, it states that he is "headed home" to begin his recovery process?  I knew he hurt his ankle just before leaving for Romania and didn't know if it was a relapse, or something else entirely. 

Thought it would be an appropriate time to bring back some basketball talk...possibly???

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Given that the enrollment slide has been taking place for several years now

I've heard that the official first year student enrollment numbers at Calvin are higher this year vs last year. 

[ziggy]

Given that the enrollment slide has been taking place for several years now

I've heard that the official first year student enrollment numbers at Calvin are higher this year vs last year.

Prospective students obviously heard the news about football being under consideration. See how easy that is? Let's get that team started!

[hoopdreams]

the health of a Hope graduate is a secret too?  Or is it a dead period for talking hoops?..... Tigers peak too soon?  Hope football not so good for some time?  Who has the weakest running game- Lions, U of M or MSU?  Bunn healthy?  Anyone.....

[hoopdreams]

what warranted to karma deductions?  Was it the attempt to talk hoops? Stab at keeping certain things a secret?  Surely it couldn't have been about Hope football, it really is time for a change.  This acceptance of below mediocrity would never be allowed on the hardwood, especially in a traditionally weak football conference top-bottom.  Guessing GVSU's coach might be looking for a job in the next year or two.

Seriously though.....thoughts on Hope's offensive attack?  After March Madness and with Bunn back I'm thinking uptempo, end-to end, both sides- david, colton, pete, logan. nate king, the couple stud ATHLETES coming in, etc....  now with "the Nate's" in the frontcourt, it potentially changes things alot.  Throw in Holwerda and you may have the biggest frontcourt around.

Or we could just talk about Calvin football some more.....

[sac]

the health of a Hope graduate is a secret too?  Or is it a dead period for talking hoops?..... Tigers peak too soon?  Hope football not so good for some time?  Who has the weakest running game- Lions, U of M or MSU?  Bunn healthy?  Anyone.....

Maybe no one who posts knows the answer or saw your post in the 13 hours between your posts.

+k to you for being basketball minded.  (and no the Tigers didn't peak too soon, they simply put the pedal down after having a division championship ripped away recently when Minnesota won 17 of their last 18 to finish the season.  The Tigers learned their lesson well........also they came up with mad clutch hitting.  )